Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2551: Can Being “Too Healthy” Be a Bad Thing?... & More (Listener Live Coaching

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

In this episode of Quah (Q & A), Sal, Adam & Justin coach four Pump Heads via Zoom. Mind Pump Fit Tip: Can being too healthy be a bad thing? (2:47) Making the case for taking higher doses of creatine. (26:37) The methylene blue trend. (29:40) The value of Lent. (32:02) Sal’s break from lust. (36:41) Reversing an aging heart. (45:00) Enhancing your savory dishes with Paleovalley’s latest bone broth protein. (49:40) #ListenerLive question #1 – What's the difference between reverse dieting and bulking? (53:01) #ListenerLive question #2 – I thought I would lean out more by now. Should I focus on hypertrophy-style training more? (1:03:27) #ListenerLive question #3 – What is the why behind all the upper body movements in Phase 1 of Muscle Mommy? (1:17:20) #ListenerLive question #4 – What are some strategies you would employ to get clients and make this transition while creating your own business? (1:36:16) Related Links/Products Mentioned Ask a question to Mind Pump, live! Email: [e-mail] Visit Legion Athletics for the exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Code MINDPUMP for 20% off your first order (new customers) and double rewards points for existing customers. ** Visit Paleovalley for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Discount is now automatically applied at checkout 15% off your first order! ** March Promotion: MAPS Performance or MAPS Performance Advanced 50% off! ** Code MARCH50 at checkout ** Mind Pump #2550: Cutting Edge Peptides for Fat Loss & Muscle Building with Alex Kikel What Strange Blue Liquid Did RFK Jr. Add to His Drink Mid-Flight? Mind Pump #2342: The Porn Addiction Solution With Sathiya Sam Proper exercise can reverse damage from heart aging LAST MAN STANDING ULTRAMARATHON Visit Meal One by Kreatures of Habit for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** 25% off your first purchase sitewide! Discount Auto-apply at checkout! ** Train the Trainer Webinar Series Mind Pump #2382: The 5 Biggest Challenges With Cutting & Bulking Mind Pump #2320: Throw Away the Scale! Mind Pump #2340: The Ultimate Muscle Mommy Workout Program Online Personal Training Course | Mind Pump Fitness Coaching Mind Pump #2515: How to Become a Successful Trainer in 2025 Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources People Mentioned Alex Kikel (@alex_kikel) Instagram Sathiya Sam (@sathiyamesam) Instagram Joe De Sena (@realjoedesena) Instagram Christina Hathaway (@mindsetofmattercoaching) Instagram Jordan Syatt (@syattfitness) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. You guessed it. This is mind pump. Today's episode, we had live callers call in and we coach them on air. We helped them with their fitness on air But this was after the intro today's intro was 51 minutes long in the intro. We talk about fitness health diets studies

It's awesome By the way, if you want to be on an episode like this one email us your question at live at mindpump media This episode is brought to you by our sponsors. The first one is Legion today. We talked about their cretein gummies This episode is brought to you by our sponsors. The first one is Legion. Today we talked about their Crateine gummies. They taste amazing. Made with Crateine, Monohydrate, the kind that is used in studies that has been shown to benefit almost everything, but including and especially muscle building, strength building, fat loss, and cognitive performance. Go check them out. Go to buylegion.com. That's B-Y-L-E-G-I-O-N.com forward slash mind pump. Use the code mind pump for 20% off. This episode's also brought to you by Paleo Valley.

Today we talked about their savory flavored bone broth protein. Make soups with it, make gravies with it, use it to add vegetables to, add protein to your rice with the savory original flavored bone broth protein. It tastes delicious. Go check them out. Go to paleovalley.com forward slash mind pump.

On that link you'll get 15% off. Also, the March special is here. MAPS Performance and MAPS Performance Advanced are two best athletic performance mobility workout programs. If you like working out because you love fitness, because you love performance, because you love moving like an athlete, you like strength, speed, agility, power, you're gonna love those two programs. Both of them right now for 50% off. Go check them out. Go to mapsfitnessproducts.com and then use the code MARCH50 for the discount.

Alright, here comes the show. T-shirt time! And it's t-shirt time! Oh, schnitzel gizzengard, Doug. It's my favorite time of the week. Oh yes indeed it is. We have five winners this week, three for Apple Podcasts, two for Facebook. The Apple Podcast winners are Wolf Daddy 2005, WFC McAlpine and Drew Griffin and for Facebook we have Jerry B. Ingraldy and Jeremy Myers. All five of you are winners. Send the name I just read to iTunes at mindpumpmedia.com, include your shirt size and your shipping address and we'll get that shirt right out to ya. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Wolf daddy. Can you be too fit and healthy? In other words, you get so fit and healthy, you're no longer fit and healthy. Yes, it's true, it sounds crazy, but too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing, and I'll start with one of them.

You can have too much muscle. This is you. What? Bro, you must be feeling convicted right now. You can have too much muscle. This is you. What? Bro, you must be feeling convicted right now. I'm feeling convicted. No, no. Daily affirmation. Some of these are gonna be obvious,

but I wanted to start with one that I think gets people like, huh? You hear us on the podcast all the time talking about the value, the health benefits, like just the improvement in quality of life benefits of building muscle. And for 99.9% of people, trying to build more muscle and building more muscle is a great thing. And the data is very clear on this. Strength and muscle mass, but strength in particular, are strongly connected to health, longevity, insulin sensitivity. It's a great thing.

connected to health, longevity, insulin sensitivity. It's a great thing, but when you chase it too hard and too far, the means to get that muscle are so unhealthy that it's not a good idea. And there may be some evidence to show that too being too heavy with. I was just going to say, I wouldn't say just the means of getting there, even just having that on your frame. You've experienced this. I've experienced this, like your sleep and your breathing and stuff like that. There's like, I mean, you could be... We've had people on the podcast that have a hard time breathing. Oh, yeah, some of our friends that are jacked.

I mean, I'm guilty of that. If you go back far enough on the podcast, remember what Billy said, give me shit when I was competing. I told him to stop breathing so heavy into the mic. You know? Yeah. And you do it. You don't even realize you're doing it. I do. This is a good conversation because I've thought about this a lot, right? And I've openly shared on here when you've watched me go through all these changes physique-wise since we started this podcast. And I think I remember talking about when I was at some of my lowest volume of training

and I was kind of doing mobility stuff, I'd lost a bunch of muscle. But telling you guys, hey, I feel the healthiest I've ever been in my life. Yet the average person looking from the outside would be like, oh no way, when he was competing he was this guy. I do think a big part of it is, and I don't know how much of a part of it,

but I think a big part of it are the methods employed to build that much muscle. In other words, you could have somebody who's- What it took to get there. Well, yes, you could have somebody who's very muscular, but they've got really muscular genetics, and they exercise and they eat right, they don't push anything too crazy,

and they're gonna be really healthy versus someone else that it may require them to- Push diet, take steroids. Yes, like do all the supplements and be obsessive about everything and never miss a workout and then diet is a big one. That's a fair way to look at it. I think that's actually an easy way to measure, Sal.

It's like if you're super jacked, but you got there through eating when you're hungry, training consistently in the gym, you probably are just a genetic anomaly and you're somebody who actually could carry that on your frame But if you had to do what I had to do which was wake up in the middle of night to drink a shake Had you know you taking anabolic steroids boundaries what your body's normally telling you? Yeah, there's no there's no way I'm a representation of health at that point and I'm very aware of that like others I don't think that I ever fooled myself to think that I'm in pursuit of health, you know why I'm a representation of health at that point. And I'm very aware of that. I don't think that I ever fooled myself to think that I'm in pursuit of health,

why I'm doing this. It was a complete body obsession of how far can I go with this. I do want to say, though, there is a little positive to this. And I'm experiencing it right now. And we kind of talked about it a little bit when we were going for a walk right now today, which is I've built so much muscle that I probably don't need on my body that it's like when I lose keeping a decent amount of muscles like easy, so easy. And you know, oh, I lost 10 pounds of muscle.

Then I go regain like 25 back real quick. And it's like, oh, then I haven't trained for like a month. It's like yeah, but still I Look like I'm more muscular than the average person. And so there's something to be said about You know, I'm not this is not me encouraging people to push that might not be a net positive but the positive is for you to keep a Relatively in comparison to the average person muscular frames easy Yeah, it's so well within muscle memory for you. Some people make that argument with,

and I don't, I mean maybe from a muscle perspective, I don't agree with it from a health perspective, but you'll hear people say, you know, getting really big with anabolic steroids will make it easier for you to stay big later even if you get off of them type of deal. And I could see that, I could see the value of the muscle memory, however the potential hormonal long-term effects

might require you to be on hormones for the rest of your life, at least a replacement perspective. But you definitely, I mean, and I guess I don't need to say this, but we use the extreme example. Pro bodybuilders don't have the best health. They're the most muscular athletes in the world. They don't have the best health. I think that part of it is the amount of size that they

carry, although again I don't need to say this, you know a 260 pound or 300 pound bodybuilder might have the weight itself is probably better being muscle than body fat, but the means by which they achieve that are really unhealthy even the diet alone like the force-feeding and just the massive amount of calories required in many of those cases isn't so great and I just and then also just the lifestyle like the sacrificing all the healthy things in life like relationships or I have a friend of mine who he's married and he's and he was a pro body but he competed.

And he's like, yeah, I don't think I could ever compete again because it's so destructive for my relationship. Because it's just so selfish. Yeah, unless your partner is doing the same thing. That was the only ones I see where they're actually like still together and making it work, but then it's like this codependent kind of thing

where they have this obsession together. Yes, that's super unhealthy. I mean, I think that's less interesting to talk about. I think what's more interesting to talk about, Sal, is the, because that to me is obvious. I think even the average listener is just like, yeah, no shit, bodybuilders aren't healthy. I don't think anybody's going like, what?

They're not healthy? Do you remember the song in Pumping Iron? I feel like there's some people like that. You remember Pumping Iron? The funniest thing, I Wanna Live Forever? That's the song that they're playing? I feel like there's some people like that. You remember Pumping Iron? The funniest thing, I Want to Live Forever? That's the song that they're playing while Arnold's flexing. I'm like, this is ironic. Yeah, right?

So I mean, I really think most people, what I think is more interesting to talk about is actually a majority of your fitness influencers that are just body obsessed, jacked also, but not extreme. So I actually think they're on that edge. I think we have really distorted in just the last two or three decades, what healthy muscle what healthy muscle looks like on people. And by the way, this is not me pointing the finger. I'm very aware that I'm part of the problem. I'm very aware that I was on that side of that stuff

and did all that. But I think we've definitely skewed the percent. I mean, a great, I mean, look at the, uh, the, the, the movies and the videos of, you know, muscular bodies just in like the fifties and the sixties and stuff like that. Like they wouldn't even, they wouldn't even turn ahead. They would never, they wouldn't even, the best one wouldn't even make the magazine cover today. Where are you like, like every influencer kid looks like what a pro bodybuilder looked like say 30 years ago. That's kind of crazy when you think about that and that's become the image of health. I mean we have these you have millions of kids following all these influencer people

who are body obsessed and way over muscle for what is considered healthy. Yeah and I think there is an individual variance with that too, right? I think that there are some people that just carry more muscle mass naturally and they could be bigger, and other guys, like I know for me, I carry at least 15 pounds too much muscle on my frame

that would be considered healthy. And I push this for years, I've been doing this for 20-something years or 30 years, over 30 years actually. And my body fat percentage is lean, right? But I think I'm carrying too much size. I'm at this weird place where I gotta change things to lose a little bit of muscle mass to be healthier.

So this is definitely the case in many cases. And the reason why I'm saying this, by the way, again, 99.9% of people, you don't have to worry about this, you'll never have to worry about having too much muscle. You can go try and build muscle all you want, you'll never have to worry about this. It's small demographic.

Yeah, but I think it's a good conversation for the person who's following the person who- That's it, because a lot of the people that communicate health from muscle are people with too much muscle. The people communicating this the best. This is why I think this is such a great conversation to talk about because, and I love that it coming from someone like you who can admit that like, I'm not trying to say that I'm

the perfect embodiment of health. And I think that's the problem is that a lot of people that aren't also are presenting this message of I'm super healthy. You know, the kid that we shouted out, he's not a kid, he's a grown ass man, but Michael Smok, I think, if I'm pronouncing his last name, he has the higher up podcast that's blowing up right now. You know who he is, he plugged us a long time ago, then we talked about his podcast.

He's reached number one, he's been doing so good. I was just going back and forth and deals with him because He worked a sponsorship deal with Celsius and he's just getting fucking lamb bastard because Celsius isn't Yeah, it's not a healthy drink and I'm saying, you know, I was just sharing with them So, you know, this was one of the things that I'm the guys and I talked about long before we were known That we wanted to be very real with like who we were, our daily hat, like not try and present this perfect image of health and share with people.

And by the way, I'm not promoting it saying that I think this is a healthy drink. And I've admittedly talked about Diet Cokes and I think that's the important part of the conversation is not, isn't it per se like we're better than the next person. It's just admitting that and not putting that out there like it's a healthy choice.

And I'm like, if you just stay consistent and honest like that with your audience, you'll be okay. I said, if you put this image out though, like you're this shining example of health. You're always doing everything right. Yeah, when you're really not. And a lot of these people's, you know, North Star compass for that is their body and the way they look.

And it's like, no, you're already way off the extreme. It's so funny because I was just kind of joking. I'm doing this series, and I was kind of shooting. And it's funny because you get in your own zone, and you just say things. You just let it fly. And I caught myself saying, because we always talk about when you're doing unilateral training,

to start with your weaker side and this and that and the other. And I was just like, yeah, I'm going to go against my own advice because I just don't want to fucking do that. You know, like stuff like that just kind of comes out. It's like I go against my own advice sometimes just because of just I'm an asshole like that. Like I sometimes I'll do things and I know it's like, oh, this is an optimal or ideal. This is what I want to do, though. So it but it's like, oh, this isn't optimal or ideal. This is what I want to do though. But it's just being honest.

I'm not always going to make the perfect choice, but at the same time, I know kind of where all that ends up and where it lines up and where my priorities are. Not to get off topic, but this is what makes a good trainer a good trainer, a good coach, is the honesty. A trainer or coach who presents themselves as the epitome of fitness or the epitome of health probably has a dysfunctional relationship with those things because at the end of the day we're all human. The next point is

can you be too lean? Absolutely. I don't think I need to argue this one too much but carrying a really low body fat percentage, especially for women, can be devastatingly unhealthy. Causes hormone disruption in a big way, and man, it crushes testosterone. In women, it crushes all their hormones. And if you get too lean, you'll die. There is something known as essential body fat.

You need some body, we've demonized body fat so much and we've glorified, shredded so much that a woman walking around at 13% body fat is considered fit, right? You see a woman with 13% body fat, here's what they look like. They have some striations, they have visible abs, on Instagram they look, oh wow, that girl's ripped.

13% body fat for the vast majority of women's unhealthy. Regardless of your fitness and diet and lifestyle, just your body fat percentage is unhealthy and you need to get it up. In fact, when I would train women like this, in fact, we had a caller recently with this. My advice is, we gotta get your body fat percentage up. That's part of the reasons why your reasons cut back on your training increase your calories

Let your body fat go up three four percent. It'll balance out your hormones your body fat and you'll be healthier You'll be stronger. Your sleep will be better all these markers of health. Yes will improve right away from that, but you're right I think that we've we've we've Positioned the people and I think social media has a big part of that because there's something about that you see that and it's attractive and it looks cool. But if someone is carrying that around year round, and this is for the guys too, a guy that walks around 6% body fat year round is not healthy. No.

And even if they try and make the case, oh, I can, I'm leaner, is that the amount of, of discipline and sacrifice and way of living they have to be in order to be that percentage year round also, so you're out of balance somewhere. You know what I'm saying? Like you definitely am not, you're not, you're not balancing relationships and other things with your family if that's the way, cause I know what it's like to be obsessed like that and do that and what it and what it requires

and it's not a healthy thing to portray to everybody else. You're not being super honest about it and you're taking pictures ahead of time. And to put it differently, to put it differently, of course there's always genetic variance. There are people who are genetic anomalies who can walk around leaner and have great health, but for the most part, a man at 6% body fat could change nothing

except get his body fat percentage up to 9% and would see improvements in health. A woman walking around at 12% or 13% body fat, leading a fit lifestyle, could simply increase her body fat up to 18% and she would probably notice improvements in health and quality of life. So that's kind of where this is going.

And I also think that, again, going back to why this conversation is so important, what's even more important than you getting that person to agree with that statement right there, it's all the people that you have no idea that you're misleading and you're setting up for failure because there's a bunch of people that are watching that lifestyle

and think that that's where they should be. I mean, how often do we get a caller who we have to tell them, like, you're kicking ass? How many times have we said that? How many times have we had a live caller who is calling in because they think they're doing something wrong or they need to do more or they're discouraged by the results and we're going, and we're going, Suzy, you're killing it. You are doing so good. You are so, like, we have to say that. But why is that? Maybe it's because they have this image

of this example of. It's distorted. Yeah, it's distorted when that person is actually doing really good because they still think that this is where they need to go. Yeah, when it comes to leanness, we've said this before, there are more millionaires than there are people with six pack abs.

And in gyms, this is already a self-selection bias of people who work out, a six pack is rare in a gym. Forget about the real world, it's actually even rare in a gym. Okay, the next one is, can you be too strong? This one sounds crazy, but there comes a point. There comes a point, so all exercises, every lift you do, everything you do that requires strength,

there's a risk factor, okay? And the risk of injury increases as your technique veers away from perfect, okay? So if you move 1% away from perfect, risk of injury goes up a little bit. You move 50% away from perfect, risk of injury goes to the roof, okay? That, the risk of injury automatically goes up a little bit, you move 50% away from perfect, risk of injury goes through the roof. That, the risk of injury automatically goes up

with every half a degree off perfect, the more weight that you can handle in relation to what your structure can actually balance. That's right. Increases. Right, so if I squat with 200 pounds and my form is a little off perfect, not gonna hurt me. I squat with 500 pounds and my form is a little off,

I'll probably get hurt. So this is when it gets a little crazy. This is why injuries start to pop up on these highly trained athletes who are doing incredible feats of strength. It's not because they don't have good technique, they're well trained, they have the best technique. It's that the weight that they're moving

for their structure, yes, it just starts to. This is where I've always loved the drag race analogy that we talk about, where it's just like, you know, if you've got a 200 horsepower car, the suspension doesn't have to be the greatest, but that 200 horsepower becomes 400, then 600, then 900, then it's a thousand horsepower. Now you're really cranking that torque. Yeah, then sooner or later, if you don't put the work in to reinforce everything. You twist the frame.

That's right. You twist the frame in half. That is the example of the athlete or the person that is so myopically focused on getting stronger, getting stronger, getting stronger, while not pursuing those other things. And that's what happens. And then eventually, and it normally starts with aches and pains and inflammation and things like that. And then they start strapping up and wearing all the wrist guards, elbow pads. You see that in power lifting, right? You see all the different, like, you know, the attire they start wearing

and all the different fitness aids and things they strap up in. And it's just to keep going as far as they could possibly stretch themselves strength wise, meanwhile the entire support system is holding on for dear life. Yeah, and now this could be true for anyone that you're too strong for your support system,

becomes more true the stronger you get, where you gotta be very careful. I mean, especially for experienced lifters, so a lot of people don't have to worry about this, especially the first three years of training, you train properly, train different planes of movement, have good technique, getting stronger is always a good thing. But at some point, the returns you get

from increased strength start to diminish, and what is more important to pay attention to is the risk. Like for example, I saw this with, a few years ago with my deadlift, I hit a PR on deadlift, my strongest lift, and I remember I hit 605, which for me was a PR, and I remember thinking, wow, I should go higher, but for what? I'm not gonna get all these crazy benefits

from adding 50 pounds or even 100 pounds on a deadlift, but my risk of injury is going through the roof. It's totally not worth chasing that. In fact, I could get the benefits of getting 100 pounds more on my deadlift by not doing 100 pounds more on my deadlift, by doing other exercises and changing my technique and tempo and all that stuff. So you can, by the way, this is true for, and we'll get to the next one, which is too much endurance, all performance when it becomes extreme sacrifices health,

period, end of story. And you can look at the longevity of any sport and what you'll see is sometimes it's better than the average person, but sometimes extreme sports have a worse longevity than even the average American. You'll see all the time these extreme endurance athletes who are dying at 70, it's like what happened? Yeah, look at football players after they retire. Football player life is 50, he's like 56, bro.

Average. Yeah. It's hell low. It's bad. And to the, to the too strong point, like, I do think that that's why, you know, I've changed my idea of like having wrist wraps, having a belt, having, you know, these, these sort of other helping, you know,

Aids. Yeah, Aids. Because if I can't lift it, if I can't like have that kind of support and structure, then I feel like I haven't earned that strength. It's not balanced to where I can support myself. It's a natural limiter. Yeah, it's a natural limiter. It's a natural limiter.

It's very similar to what Sal was talking about with the too much muscle. If you have to use peptides, steroids, and force feeding to get a certain amount of muscle, it's unnatural. If you have to use all kinds of lifting aids to get to a certain level of strength, it's not natural. And so allowing your body's natural limiters is probably the best path towards any of these pursuits without, oh, how do I know I'm going to overdo it? Well, that's one way to know is don't add a bunch of tools that help you get 10, 20% more gains. Don't force feed yourself 20% more or take anything

on in addition to that to try and push that. Yeah, and endurance is like this as well. Extreme endurance performance athletes, you see oxidative damage, you see heart. Suspects their bones. When they do analysis of hearts of extreme endurance athletes, which you think they must have the healthiest hearts, they actually do analysis of hearts of extreme endurance athletes, which you think

they must have the healthiest hearts, they actually have aged and damaged hearts because of the wear and tear. The extreme performance, I mean, extreme anything sacrifices longevity and health and it's true for any physical pursuit. And then lastly, could you eat too perfectly? Yeah. Yeah. You start to...

Or theoretically. could you eat too perfectly? Yeah, yeah, you start to, when you look at overall health, your state of mind, the relationships around you, your quality of life, all contribute to longevity. When you're orthorexic, right, when everything absolutely has to be perfect and measured and weighed and I gotta avoid every single negative potential chemical and everything has to be a specific way.

The stress associated with that alone is a net negative on your health. So you can, and we've met many orthorhexics. There are plenty in our space. And you meet these people and they are not healthy. They may eat perfectly on paper, but they're not healthy. By the way, this is the one that's most commonly linked to the the lean point you made. The one that is lean year-round on Instagram is typically suffers from this. Yeah.

Suffers from the eating tour. I do want to say this because I guarantee we've pissed off a ton of people and there's you know that I'm sure some of this stuff is gonna get clipped. It is 90% of you don't have to worry about any of this. If you're sitting there listening to this and you're eating potato chips on the couch you couldn't run to the end of your driveway or lift up your girlfriend like you're not this person okay so most people are not too strong too much endurance. You guys ever get that dude that's like. My girlfriend's a big girl. You guys ever talk to like some guy,

like you go to a party and you meet like when your wife's friend's husband or whatever. Oh yeah, you lift weights? Yeah, I don't lift weights because I get too big, if I lift weights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shut up, bro. Yeah, stop it.

You're not gonna get too big. I don't look like Arnold, you know. It's not really a look I'm going for. I just get big so fast. But I do, so the conversation is fun because you know, maybe you are pursuing getting in shape and getting fitter and stuff like that. It is easy to fall into one of these traps. Or to follow people who are in this category. Yes. So now

you're taking health advice from an unhealthy individual. And that's what I think the most important. This is less about, oh my god is that me? Am I too strong? This is less about that for you guys. You know what I'm saying? It's more about pay close attention to who you're following, who you're listening to for health advice, who is setting the bar for you. And this, what you think is this great example of, cause I can't tell you how many times I've had family and friend, you know, who tell me who they think is like, oh, I follow so and so. And I'm like, that's who you get your health and fitness

advice from, really? So it's more about that than it is, you're probably too muscular or too lean. I get messages like that. I have a family thread. They will just send me the, hey, Sal, I started taking this supplement. I'm looking at like, Deer Antler something or Sea Boss.

Oh my god, you do know I know this stuff. Like, can you please ask me? It blows my mind you get it. Because I know I get it, but I don't come off like you do. It blows my mind that even your family doesn't. So I feel better about what my... What's that saying? Never be a prophet in your own,

yeah, your own town or whatever. No, it's definitely true. Speaking of supplements and stuff, so we had Alex Kekal on the podcast recently and he's the, what is he, the performance coach, I think he's called, or something like that. Anyway, find his Instagram, I'll give him a shout out. He's a really smart guy, really smart guy.

He's on that kind of gray market, gray area. He gets into all the weeds with all the stuff. And he was making the case for really high doses of creatine. Yeah, he's justified me snacking on this. Is that why you're eating it? You just made me think about it. Oh I can have a few more. Well so, by the way, you know what's funny? You say that because Legion has them in the

gummy form or whatever. It's so easy to eat more creatine with that because it tastes like candy. It's got the sugar crystals on it too or whatever. But anyway, I've been experimenting. So there's data that shows that 10 grams of creatine probably has cognitive benefits, which is double what the data. It's always been five grams. Yeah, it's always been five grams is what they've recommended, right?

So he says that the data source 10. He says what he likes to tell people, what's his Instagram there, Doug? Yeah, it's at Alex underscore Kickel. K-I-K-E-L, the prep coach, that's him. So he says, what he does with his clients is he pushes creatine until they notice gastro issues. And then that's the point, and it stops him at.

That's the threshold. Yeah, so, and he made a good point. He made me think about this a little bit, that so many functions in the body operate better with healthier mitochondria, with more ATP, I mean all of them, right? So, and creatine provides that, provides more of that energy. So, and there have been studies on high doses of creatine,

20, 25 grams showing there's no negative benefits. So I'm experimenting. I'm experimenting with it. What's cool about this one is that it's relatively inexpensive. So it's not like, you know what I'm saying, it's an inexpensive product that if you wanted me to double my dose, it's not like it's costing my pocket.

I will say this though, you will get gastro distress if you take it all at once. I already did this. Oh yeah, spread it out throughout the day. I made the same mistake. Did you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I was like 15 grams. I was like, ooh.

Oh yeah. Yeah, it was tight. I don't think I've ever felt that from creatine before. Well, because you're taking five at a time. Well, right now I am, but I do, I remember the good old days of, you know, loading in the Celltech case. All at once?

Yeah. You didn't get, you might not have paid attention back then. I know, you might be right. Back in those days. That's a good point. I do those days, it was just a diary. I just kinda wanna push it and see what happens. What happens if I have like 20. A fact of life.

No, I do, so what I'm doing is like three or four grams at a time, and I'm doing it like many times a day. So I'm taking about, I'm taking right now about 10 to 15 grams a day, and I'll let you guys know what I think or what I feel from it. I'm expecting more of cognitive benefits from it, but it's too early. That's what he sold me on, yeah.

It was, again, the methylene blue, and then it was nicotine. So again, these are all just things. I'm like, oh, interesting, like more cognitive benefits. I'm always trying to think of how to optimize it. Did you like the methylene blue? Do you like the way that feels? It's interesting.

I know you guys at one point It felt like a bit of a lol from it. I don't like it. Yeah, so I actually I like I didn't feel that I felt a bit of an energy boost and then it was it was temporary It was gone not a huge impact it made me feel edgy, and I took a low dose and I felt okay And then I got edgy from it huh, and then I kind of you're also really sensitive like you're not a caffeine drinker right now Yeah, Justin and I feel like, I don't even feel edgy from it, but I did feel the come down.

It makes your pee blue, which if you're not ready for that. Yeah, that's very. Uh oh, what's wrong with me? It's a fun little addition. Party trick or whatever. Well, I mean, I think you have one of two choices. It'll either make your mouth blue like crazy,

which I think is worse. That's if you do the drops or whatever. Yeah, if you do the drops, the ones you suck on. Loggages or whatever. Or you take the- And it stays blue for a while. Yeah. I remember you guys tried it out.

Raspberry snow cones outside. Your teeth, it turns your teeth all, I mean it looks worse than drinking some red wine. Well, you know why it's trending, right? Robert Kennedy, someone took a video of him squirting methylene blue into his water. No, right? Did you guys see that?

Yeah. I was wondering why. He was on a flight and he likes it. And it's very distinct. Yeah, it was somebody on there that was promoting Methylene Blue and I was like, oh wow, because I even think it was like Mel Gibson brought it up in terms of some cancer studies with it. I was wondering why it got so popular so quick.

It's been popular in the biohacking space now for I'd say probably five years. That's what I mean. It wasn't the first time I'd heard of it, but everyone seems to be talking about it right now. And so I thought that was really like, did something come out like a study or is it really just because of the RFK thing?

No, I mean, listen, the data on it's very interesting. I think there's an individual variance with how you feel on it and stuff. I probably need a really low dose, but it's an MAOI inhibitor, natural. It helps the body produce more energy and cycle through more or produce more ATP. That's gotta be the weirdest one so far

because it's a blue dye. How the hell did they figure out that that had some health benefits? It's been around for a long time. It seems kind of weird too considering we're going through this thing where we're becoming more aware of dyes being bad in our diet and then all of a sudden

we're taking this Methylenedine. Red, horrible, blue, great. Yeah, that seems like a lot. No, I don't think Methylenedine blue is the blue that they use often in food. I think they used it for some other stuff, but I don't think it was. Yeah, sure.

I don't think you're gonna go like blue candy and it's Methylenedine blue. Give it to your kids. Yeah. Oh, father. Yeah. Great, no, I don't think so. Dyer genes with it.

Anyway, so I gotta ask you guys, so tomorrow, as of the recording of this, but yes, here there he is right there, squirting two. It's very clearly methyl and blue. There's nothing that looks like that. Oh yeah. Yeah.

That you're putting in your water. It's obvious. OK, so question for you guys. As of the recording of this, so when this airs, it'll already happen. But tomorrow is Lent, which is the Catholic practice of sacrificing something in the pursuit of like sharing in or experiencing some of the suffering, right? So Jesus suffered so you're gonna go

through and the traditional way was I think you fasted and did a bunch of stuff but now people like I'll give up this one thing or whatever. So I thought I'd include all of you guys in mind. What are you doing? Why are you looking at me into this? include all of you guys in mind. What are you doing? Huh? Why are you looking at me into this? This is what I'm trying to get you to do. So I don't necessarily identify.

You got a problem. He already tried with me. Didn't work in the bathroom. No, I got you guys. I know this place. We were in the bathroom, like, somebody give it up for Len. I'm evangelical, so.

Let's say, bro, I'm already saved, dog. Quit trying to save me. That's what I told him. I did it to Doug, too. Although he's like, I've never given anything up for Len. I'm like, oh, so you're just gonna continue that? Okay. So what is it? What do you nominate for us? So, no, I've never given anything up for Len. I'm like, oh, so you're just gonna continue that? I'm just like, I don't know. So what is it?

What do you nominate for us? So, no, I don't identify as Catholic, but I love some of the practices, because I think the roots are really interesting. I think that's really cool, right? Yeah, that's a good idea. Your practice, you're trying to experience and give something to you.

I'm a huge fan of this. I talk about doing well. And I've talked to people about this, about the practice, and some people mess it up by giving something up that benefits them. So I'm gonna give up sugar, because I wanna get leaner. It's like, well, you're supposed to suffer.

That's the point. And so, yeah, that's me. Yeah, it's something you're addicted to or you really don't like to give up. Yeah, and you're like, you're doing it because you're purposely gonna suffer, and you're gonna give it to God. Of course.

Okay, so I'm gonna do something that's gonna make all of us suffer. Oh, man. That's what's happening now. No, I mean, no, it's all joking aside, it's for me, but as I was thinking about it, I'm like, these guys are gonna suffer too. So I'm gonna give up caffeine.

I am not gonna have any caffeine. I thought you were already off caffeine. No, I haven't been off caffeine. You barely even, yeah, that's weak, bro. Jesus is not impressed. Listen. Listen. Yeah.

He's like, Jesus is rolling. Hey, you just got the biggest eye roll from Jesus right now you guys. I died on a cross, you gave me 25 milligrams. 25 milligrams, John. I'm just gonna fast from it. I have 400 milligrams a day. Listen, I have 400 milligrams of caffeine a day. I take it before every workout. What, you're doing 400?

Always, yeah, I've been doing 400. That's the most I know. Oh, because you do pre-workouts. Yeah. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout.

Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Pre-workout. Listen, I have 400 milligrams of caffeine a day. I take it before every work. What you're doing 400 always Yeah, I've been doing 400. I think most because you do pre-workout. Yeah, okay pre-workout Oh, you're doing I didn't know you're doing that much. I know Justin and I haven't gone I haven't gone purely without caffeine like a hundred hundred percent for

Like like where I do it for a prolonged for a long time I would suffer with this one a long time and so I anticipate a little brain fog, irritability. When does it start? Tomorrow. So tomorrow I'll be in here recording the podcast with no cat feet. Where you catching up? It's all horrible.

It's gonna be terrible. Sorry. Tomorrow? The next episode that comes out sucks. I can't, yeah. Can you wait? We have Carlton tomorrow. I didn't even give me any time to prep.

I can't carry that episode. No, I'll be okay. I think I'll be okay. I can't carry the episode. No, I'll be okay. I think I'll be okay. I can't carry the heavy science one, dude. You get one more day in. I'll take some other stimulants. I'm just gonna sneak it in his water. No, I'm gonna go without it.

And I'll do cold showers. It's seven days? It's 40. Oh, it's 40? 40 days. Why did I think it was only seven? I don't know. Red juice, dude.

That's what I'm gonna do. For sure. That'll help mitigate that. But I'm going to cut it out completely. And the last time I went without caffeine for a long period of time was when I was doing jujitsu. And I did it because jujitsu was at night, and so I had to go do practice at seven.

Taking caffeine at night wasn't such a great idea. Plus it made me out of breath with that kind of training. And I'll never forget, being off caffeine, there was a period, I don't know how long it took. I'm thinking it was like week three. I remember feeling so good. So I hope that happens. You know why I'm so resistant to this?

Because I feel like. Why? To me? Doing this? No, no, not you. I mean me. You've given some up. Yeah, it's because everybody's doing it right now. So I don't want to do it. I'm just, I'm set such a bad reason, but it's so's because everybody's doing it right now. So I don't wanna do it. Oh God.

I'm just, I'm set such a bad reason, but it's so true. It's your rebelliousness. It is, dude. It's like, it's not like what you're talking about. I don't practice this. This is something I, I'm very aware of the things that I abuse or use or that I can. You just need to do it on your turn.

Exactly, and I've already been like, okay, there's some things that I need to like cut out for a while, but it's like, oh, everybody's doing it. It's like, so you should do it on your turn. Exactly, and I've already been like, okay, there's some things that I need to cut out for a while, but it's like, oh, everybody's doing it. It's like, so you should do it now. Just save yourself, Adam. You don't need to save yourself, you just become your own. Do yourself.

I'm just kidding. You do this often. I didn't realize that. You do this often. Yeah, I do. I definitely do this a lot. And I don't know if this, I don't know if this. You know, last Lent was a big one for me.

When I broke my issues with lust, was last Lent. Was that porn back then? It was porn and, you know, doing my own stuff by myself. I gave up all of it. So, no, my point is, is it now been a full year? Oh, it's been longer than that. But that Lent was, it's gonna get weird now, but Lent was where I not only, I had gotten away from porn.

You did a no-fat, is what you're gonna say. Yes, I did. Okay, that's what you're gonna say. And had avoid I had gotten you did a no-fap is what you're gonna say okay I'll help you so that's that was last year yes and, and it was... Wait, wait, so it's been a year since that? Yeah. Yeah, a whole year. Wow. Can I tell you something? I don't even know what that's like.

Huh? I know you don't. Neither do I. Why are you looking at me like that? You're sleeping yourself. Of course not, dude. I'm not even contributing to this conversation. This is like a day?

More than a day? What? That's most men. Tell me the hard... I know that you don't want to go here, but I want to go here. a day more than a day? What? That's most man. Tell me the hard, I know that you don't, I don't want to go here, but I want to go here. What is what the journey of that, when was the hardest, how long, that's a terrible word to use. The harvest. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that Doug. What was the most difficult period of that and at any point did you feel like it's gonna explode this is gonna get this is gonna get very spiritual okay so if you're secular whatever but this is just when it got spiritual when I pornography in

particular was a very difficult thing to break completely and a lot of men struggle with a lot of men don't talk about this but this is a very difficult thing to give it not it's very hard you talked to talk about this. But this is a very difficult thing to give. Not, it's very hard. You talk to men about this, and they'll tell you, especially if you get them to open up, like they just can't ever go away completely. So that was an issue for me, on and off, on and off. And the reason why I wanted to stop before

I ever became a Christian was because of the data on pornography. The data on pornography just kept compiling and showing that it just wasn't good for you. It wasn't good for your brain, distorts the dopamine reward system, it's not good for relationships, it definitely creates lots of problems.

It just does, the data's very clear. There's no benefit to pornography. It's only negative. Of course the data, this is how anything gets you. You have to have the data to support it before you even accept or adopt it. Now, before I became a Christian, I still couldn't stop. I would stop and then go back, and then stop and go back.

That's the thing, I stopped the porn, but I still have a great imagination. Yeah. So it's just like, it's still there. Continue on, I wanna hear this, I wanna hear this. So when I became a Christian, one of the first things I really prayed over was my issue with lust.

And he took it from me. Completely. Like it was like an overnight thing or was it like a gradual, really? Like overnight, I felt, it's gonna sound weird if you're not a Christian, but I felt the sin in it. Not the guilt, but the sin in it.

It didn't do what it did for me before. It didn't feel. It lost like the pleasure in it almost, or it lost the desire for it? I felt it didn't feel the same, and he took it from me, and so that was done. But I would still, like Justin, have my imagination here and there.

And so Lent came around, and by that point, it had been months since looking at any pornography, and I remember going into Lent and thinking, can I give this up? Like, you know, that was like, since I was 13 years old. I was, you know, so. And I did, and I did it, and I was able to. And I don't think I did it alone.

I think you helped me. Now share with the audience, what are some things you've connected that it's benefited you and your relationship and everything else. Oh, everything better. Well, I mean, come on, like, let's, like, is, has it increased intimacy in your relationship? Of course, yes. I thought that I'd be walking around, like, ready to go off at any moment. Like, oh my god, how am I gonna manage this? Yeah. Not true. Not true at all. That, that lust, as described in spiritual practices,

but especially in the Bible, grows the more you feed it. It doesn't, it's not like you need to feed it to keep it at bay. It actually grows the more you feed it. So what I experienced was not that. It was not like, oh, I'm losing my mind. It definitely takes away from intimacy. Actually, I actually found myself,

now my connection with my wife is stronger in that way, and I can lust after her, I can lust with her, and believe me, that happens, but I'm not like this walking loaded gun all the time. Anything surprise you? Anything that you didn't anticipate would come from it, and it was something that came from it, or rewarded by it, did you notice anything else?

I mean, I was surprised that I was able to do it, but I don't think I did it alone. That really surprised me. I was like, am I signing up for Totally Am I Gonna Fail? But I was able to do it. So that was last, that was last-lent. Caffeine's gonna be a hard one, but that one I think was much harder.

Oh, I imagine that one would be much harder. Yeah, but listen, you guys, this is, listen, I recently started a Bible study, and the topic of lust comes up very quickly and very often, and men don't talk about it, but it is, we've talked about this before, the amount of visual stimulation and novelty available to the average guy with a cell phone.

I can't imagine being a. It's increased tenfold. Hold on, the most powerful king 500 years ago didn't have that. I know. The most powerful king who could have anything he wanted did not have access to the amount of novelty and insanity that the average 17 year old kid with a cell phone has.

I always. It is completely rewiring. I always think that I was so lucky that we didn't even have a Computer in our house. Yeah going up I didn't get my first computer to I was in my 20s And so I can only imagine if I was a teenage boy going through that's immediately where you went And I didn't experience that I don't know what I don't know what it was like until I don't I didn't know any of that stuff So so naive to that the average age of a child,

the average age a person first sees pornography on the internet now? It's like 12 or 13. 10. Oh, is it 10? Wow, I knew it was low. I know it was low. That freaks me out.

Yeah, dude. They already did, bro. That's what that means. Yeah, I know. That's what that is. Well, yeah. Yeah, it's out there. It's very, very damaging.

That's the secular data. So I'm gonna forget the whole, like you don't believe in it's sin or whatever. That's just the secular data, but it's a tough one. So I feel bad, I feel, by the way, for people, like lust is a big deal. It's taken down empires. The most powerful men in history

have put everything on the line because of lust. Presidents, kings. For a moment of passion. Like just for that. So this is like a very weak spot for men and what we've done is we've sold pornography as a safe, you know, outlet for it. We've normalized it. It's not. We've normalized it completely. Yeah. I mean that's why, what was our guy, buddy, I talked to him all time. I was just talking to him yesterday. Who came on the show. Yes. I really liked,

it starts with an S. Last name Sam but I can't remember the first name. You remember? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, we were just talking about it. I mean, I just think he's got such a great message that going out there. It's growing, too. And sharing that.

Yeah, I mean, more and more young men probably coming forward about it. I can only imagine what this generation that grew up in. And especially, at least now, those of us that have young kids, I'm aware of it. So I'll be very cautious with my son, right? I'll be watching that where, man, if you grew up in the last say 10 to 15 years, you were in the middle of like parents not kind of being aware. Not really knowing the- Yeah, not being aware of it, what kind of really realizing how powerful it was.

Now I think a little, not everybody knows, but people are more aware today because more people are talking about it. Yeah, and the data too on, when you talk to those experts like that, the kind of pornography that's being displayed now is becoming more and more violent and extreme as the novelty is wearing off. So... Well, it makes sense that if you go down that rabbit hole of addiction and that you just and extreme as the novelty is wearing off. So. Well it makes sense that if you go down that rabbit hole of addiction and that you just keep raising the bar.

That's exactly what it is. It's like a classic drug. Yeah, right, that you just, this doesn't work enough, 90 this, 90 this, 90 this. That's wild. I know, I know. That's super crazy. Pretty crazy.

I got a study on changing the subject to Doug's delight on reversing an aging heart. This is for elderly or people who are older. Really good news, let me pull this up for ya. But you can reverse an aging heart with pretty minimal amounts of exercise. Two years. Hmm. Wow.

Yeah, so a study by cardiologists at UT Southwestern and Texas Health Resources showed that regular exercise can reverse damage caused by a sedentary lifestyle and an aging heart, and this is for anybody who's 65 or younger. Exercising four to five times a week significantly improved heart function, improving or increasing heart oxygen intake by 18% or oxygen intake by 18%, enhancing the heart's elasticity by 25%. So people who are 60 who just led a

completely sedentary life after a couple years of exercise reversed it. Converged it. Wow. From the heart. Do you say what type of exercise? I was completely. Reversed it, wow. From the heart. Do you see what type of exercise? I was just seeing the same thing. What was used? This was moderate intensity sessions, high intensity intervals, and strength training.

So it was a pretty balanced, looks like a balanced exercise. Because I bet a lot of people, and you brought it up earlier in the podcast, that you would think that the more you run, the better it would be for your heart. And that's not necessarily true. No. You know what I saw, you guys? There's a, did you guys, have the more you run, the better it would be for your heart. And that's not necessarily true. You know what I saw you guys?

There's a, did you guys, have you guys heard of, I think I wrote it down so I didn't forget what it was. Oh yeah, Last Man Standing Marathon. Look that up, Doug. I know there's a, isn't there a comedy show that's that? Yeah, it's Last Man Standing is a TV show. It's a TV show, but there's a, it's Last Man Standing Marathon. It show. There's a it's last man standing a marathon

It's an ultra marathon and it's like literally a hundred miles It's it's like more than that if you don't stop until you can't anymore. Yeah, literally till the last Yeah, I heard a guy talking about it on a funny. It's so appealing some people. Oh, I know I just gonna be me We had Joe to see non He talked about the like his his thing that he puts everybody through. And then I heard this one. I went, oh my god, that makes that one look like a kiddie race.

Wow. Show, OK, it's a 4.2 mile loop in less than an hour. And you just keep going until you can't go anymore. 4.2 miles. You have to run it under a certain amount of time or you're done. The last runner standing wins the race. Yes.

And so you're literally like,, Good God. Could you imagine? The guy was talking about, like, how much damage was to his body for, like, months later. Everybody has Rabdo. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Could you imagine that? So do that.

Read the quote. Like, what do you have to do at 4.2 mile loop in less than one hour? So that's the parameter. That's the parameter. And then it's literally last man standing. That's how it works. So you have to, so what is that time on that on a 4.2 mile

loop, you have to do in less than an hour. It's like a mile every 15 minutes. Now I wonder what the, like how long did the last race take? Well, it's considered an ultra marathon. So these guys are 100 miles or more. Wow. Is that crazy? Oh yeah. So, Oh my God, 450 miles. Yes. Holy shit, bro. Can you

please? He ran for 108 hours. That's, that's, uh, that's 108. Like, could you run to death? You could almost run to death. That would be like real close to that. You would think for some days. I thought that was the most brutal thing I'd ever, I never, wait a minute, so no sleep? Yeah. Do they refuel or anything? Of course. Yeah, so they have a, so OK, when you run it, there's a certain time.

And the faster you run it, the more time you have to rest till the next time. So it goes on, I think it goes like on every hour or something like that. So you could pause. As long as you run it for whatever mile an hour. So yeah, I think it goes on every hour or something like that.

Hour and two minutes. OK, so every hour and two minutes. So if you get it done in 10 minutes, you got a 50 minute rest before you go to the next one. But I mean, again, you're- Again, no sleep. Yeah, you're just right back at it. No, every hour actually.

Yeah, it's every hour, right? So on every hour, you gotta run it. And so you get it done, and then you can kind of relax and rest for- This competition is gonna end because someone's gonna die or something like that. I was surprised someone didn't already when he was explaining it.

I went, holy shit. By the way, this highlights something that humans physically are actually pretty exceptional at, which is just endurance. Like compared to almost any other animal, we can outlast. Yeah, what was the, what did you say the record was, how far?

Well, it didn't say record, but that was the last time. Oh no, you're right, record. Yeah, only record. 450 miles. 108 hours, that's what trips me out. I don't think I've ran. That in your lifetime. Walk in my entire life.

I don't think I've ran that in my lifetime. All cumulative. I don't think so. I've never heard of that before. Have you guys heard of that? I had never heard about it before. I heard him say it and then I had to look it up and I'm like, oh my God, I gotta tell the guys about this.

This is so crazy. Oh, I gotta ask you, Adam, because I have, I wanted to bring something up, I don't wanna ask you first. Okay, so Katrina, your your son not feeling very good We got flu going on. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so I got some down So, you know chicken soup and you know that kind of stuff broth whatever road. Yeah, so paleo valley has their bone broth They made a savory version of how the new the new one. Yes, so I made some I we I warmed it up and it it's

Yes, so I made some I we I warmed it up and it it's it's delicious It's savory so you can make this you can you could probably make it into a soup you can add it to your rice We've talked about this protein rice before but it's it tastes like It tastes like bone broth like liquid bone broth with like a bouillon cube or something there This makes sense on how to use that now because originally when I got it I went oh gross I would never just drink a cold shake like that. No no no. But if doing it hot and drinking it like a broth or a soup. Yeah so you can make it into soups or stews you could enhance gravies, casseroles, you just add it and what you're doing is you're adding 20 grams of protein. Bro so funny when I first when they first sent it to my house, I was just like,

I just assume like, oh, like a regular protein shake. So what I did to test it, I tested it and I made, I, I microwaved, you know, I just warmed up some water, mixed it in some, and then I ate, I just drank it just to see what it was like. And it's, it's a really good soup. This is great. I'll make some for Katrina and Max today. But I want to see some recipes like stews, gravy. Well think about it Sal. It's really good. Any stew or soup that you would make that could be the base. Yeah. I mean if you say it tastes like that kind of like I mean that would make it

perfect. It's really. Imagine adding like little shreds of chicken and rice inside. Oh yeah. So there so Paleo Valley I don't know how they do this. I'm not saying this just cause they're a sponsor. They're, whoever's engineering the flavors, first of all it's minimally processed. This is why I don't understand how they do this. It's not like they add all this, it's very minimally processed. But their salted caramel, unbelievable.

Their chocolate, unbelievable. This, so good. It's not like using a protein powder, it's like you're using a delicious bone broth. So I don't know how they're doing it. That's a cool, what a cool way to boost like a soup to make it a high protein meal. Yeah, you can add vegetables to that,

that's what I would do. I would make that, boil some potatoes and vegetables. I'd go, I'll go boil some vegetables in there, like four ounces of shredded chicken in there, a little bit of rice, and that'll be like a killer, like chicken rice soup, I like that. That's super cool. Start your day off with high protein, healthy food

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As a mind pump listener, you're gonna get 25% off your first purchase site wide. The discount is auto applied. All right, back to the show. This segment is brought to you by trainerwebinar.com. Trainers and coaches, if you wanna succeed, you wanna be better at what you do, you wanna build a bigger business, a better business,

go to trainerwebinar.com. Totally free, Adam and I will teach you ourselves on how you can build a better business. Our first caller is Dion from Canada. What's up, Dion? What's happening? Hey guys, how you doing? Good. How are you, man?

Doing well, doing well. How can we help you? So I'll ask my questions first and then provide a bit of context, I guess, to kind of help round it out. Um, the questions kind of revolve around reverse dieting versus bulking, um, and how to incorporate mini cuts through that process. I guess the differences between reverse dieting and bulking. So I guess if I'm gonna be reverse dieting

over a long period of time, say a year or so, is there any point during the reverse diet where I've progressed at ramping up my calories to a certain point where I can flip into a bulk or can I still maximize muscle gain through the process into reverse dieting through the entire time? You're technically in a bulk. It's the same thing.

Yeah, you're in a bulk when you're reverse dieting. So if you're reverse dieting it. Maybe your question is more like, instead of doing a slow reverse diet, can I jump with a higher calorie jump to push gains? I guess, is that more accurate? Yeah, is it necessary to push higher or will a reverse diet still satisfy maximum muscle gain?

Yeah, reverse. Yeah, I mean, you're fine. Look, okay, so here's the deal. There's a bit of a trade-off when you're really pushing calories for gains. Would you gain more muscle by going beyond what would be considered a reverse diet? Because with the reverse diet,

the goal is boost metabolism, minimize fat gain. With a bulk, it's maximize muscle, minimize fat gain. It's very similar, but some people would say, oh, a bulk is probably a higher calorie bump than a reverse diet. But here's the deal, with good programming, I mean, could you get stronger with more calories? Probably, and it's probably due to the calories.

Would you gain more muscle? I don't know, maybe, but along with it, would come more body fat. I don't know if that's a good trade-off, necessarily. I mean, the way I bulk people is the same way I would reverse diet someone. Well, we have more context here for the audience. So it says you're 180 pounds, you're 20 to 21 percent body fat,

or 19 percent somewhere around there. So here's how I would do this with where you're at. If you go on an aggressive bulk, which is also a reverse diet too, but it's considered more like where we're adding 500, 700 calories and you're at 19 percent body fat, we're definitely going to put body fat on. You're going to build some muscle, you're going to get your calorie intake up, speed your metabolism up, but you're going to put some body fat on, eating that much of a surplus consistently. I'd much rather put you in a small reverse diet, let's say 250, 300 calories a day, or right, increase. And what will most likely happen is you'll also lean out.

And the reason why you'll also lean out by being closer there is in let's say a month's time, there'll be periods when you're actually kind of in a deficit and there'll be other periods when you're actually in a surplus. So someone who's at 19% body fat, what'll probably end up happening is you build say five, 10 pounds of muscle and then you also come down two or 3% body fat,

where if we go on an aggressive bulk, you're most likely not gonna reduce body fat percentage while you aggressively bulk. And so maybe let's say you were a young guy who was at 9% and you've just been skinny your whole life and you're like, I can't put weight on period. I'm gonna aggressive bulk that guy. That guy who's at 9%,

and I don't give a shit if we go up to 14% or 15% in pursuit of building more muscle, I would do that. But where your body fat percentage is at, I would personally, I would prefer to do a slower gradual reverse diet where I know that actually sometimes you'll probably be in a little bit of a deficit, especially as the metabolism speeds up. So, but, I mean, I'm sure you wouldn't be mad at me at the end of our, you know, programming

where you're like, "'Shit, Adam, I put on 5lbs of muscle and I leaned out,'' you know what I'm saying? Because I'm sure you could afford to go down a couple percent body fat and wouldn't be mad about that. Versus if you were the really skinny kid who's only at, who's always lived at 8-9 percent body fat and always seen his abs, but never been able to put any weight on, like that would be a little bit different. I would be more aggressive with you. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Okay. So, subsequently, I've also

heard Adam talk about incorporating mini cuts through these processes. So I had some kind of questions in regards to how to properly, I guess, implement that, like when should I start my first mini cut? And then when I'm in it, how long should I be, I guess, in relation to the reverse versus the cut portion? Um, and then how to get back out of it. Do I step back straight up to where I was at or would I take a week or two and kind of ease back up or am I just getting airs? You could go right back up. The primary goal, so if the primary goal is to bulk and build, we're going to spend most of the time in the calorie surplus and we're just going to have

small interruptions of a cut. One week, two weeks top. So let's say I'm bulking for three, four, five weeks straight, interrupt it with a one week, maybe two weeks at most cut, and then go right back to the bulk. And I'll go right back to the calories. You don't get to ease back. I'll go right back to what was considered our bulk in that calorie range, give or take, and then just keep interrupting. And I really, the way, like how do I decide if I'm going to let someone bulk for six weeks

or four weeks or three weeks? Mostly it's how they feel. Sometimes when you're, and you've probably experienced this in both a cut or a bulk, where it just, you get almost like diet fatigue. You're like, oh my God, just eating in this surplus for week after week is just hard. It's like, you know what?

When I have a client who's giving me that feedback, I'll give them a little diet break by going the opposite direction. By cutting them for one week, that appetite comes back up and they're like, oh my God, I'm hungry again. Great, let's go back to the bulk. And so think of more less of the science of what's gonna build the most muscle.

It's more of the psychology of, you know what, man, I'm just so tired of stuffing my face for three, four, five weeks straight. I need a little bit of a diet break. Let me put up, and that one week cut, you're not gonna lose muscle. You're just gonna, it's just gonna kind of reset how you feel as far as your appetite. And then I like to put you right back in the bowl. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Cool. So would I adjust the volume or anything with that for that mini cut or just kind of roll through it consistent programming? Like if I'm currently running anabolic right now, would I worry about any volume changes or can just roll through? You're probably okay if that program is fine. Yeah if it's just a mini cut. You know the time you want to reduce volume in a cut is when the cut is prolonged or you're redlining. Like you're already like at the line, like oh if I had, you know, I'm recovering

and I'm adapting but I'm pushing it, then I would reduce the volume. A program like that's perfect though. An anabolic's probably okay. Yeah, you'd be more of a concern if you were running PED or a mass aesthetic, where it's high, high volume, and then you also cut. But even then, a small week, two week cut isn't a big deal. It's like Sal said, a prolonged cut while also

flirting with overtraining is not an ideal. And then I would tell you. And again, guess what? Be after how you feel. If you're I'm training you and you're like man Adam just I'm sore for longer and I feel like I'm getting weaker in the gym like that tells me it signals to me like oh we're probably over training a little bit because we're in this calorie deficit let me scale you back a little bit or slightly increase the calories or or a blend of the two and I'm gonna

modify but again I'm only gonna do that again based off of the feedback that you're giving me and how you feel. That's how I'm going to tweak and adjust that. Gotcha. Because that's probably where I was coming from. I was kind of redlining in the other direction in terms of the cut I was on. And for the most part, like I got like fairly low calories, but I was still having like a decent libido, sleep was good, recovery was decent. I wasn't necessarily overturning, but I was still having like a decent libido, sleep was good. Um, recovery was decent. I wasn't necessarily overturning, but I was towards the end of performance. Um, it got down to like 1800 calories and that final drop in calories, I noticed a little bit of a, um, a strength decline and that was my trigger to like, okay, I'm at the end of my runway start. Yeah. Back up to about 2000

right now. And the end of the year, I'd like to see myself around 3500 give or take. Yeah that's a great decision, great goal. I think you're on the right track dude. Cool. Yeah are you in our private forum? I'm not. So let me have Doug send you access to that. It'd be great to keep an eye on you that and this way too if you have questions as you're going along your process that you can just let us know and then what program are you following right now? Right now I just started at Anabolic I'm still in pre-phase and then I'm probably gonna do Powerlift after before rolling back into either Performance or I might grab Symmetry or something. I love that, it's a great choice. Yeah good job man.

Cadence. Yep. Cool. Right on. Thanks Deon. We'll see you in great choice. Yeah, good job man. Yeah, cadence. Yep. Cool. Right on, yeah. All right, thanks Dion. We'll see you in the forum. Yeah, thanks guys, take care. You got it. He's on the right track. Yeah, doing a good job.

He's on the right track. Yeah, yeah, reverse diet is a bulk. The reason why we changed the name of a bulk to reverse diet is because a reverse diet sounds better to somebody who's trying to boost your metabolism and trying to lose weight. Yeah, bulk's a little. Yeah, I mean, we say calorie surplus. Turns some people off, yeah. Reverse diet sounds better to somebody who's trying to boost her metabolism and trying to lose weight.

Yeah, bulks and all. Yeah, we say calorie surplus, bulk, reverse diet, they all generally, they just mean you're eating more calories and you're burning. And you're moving towards gaining something, whether it's muscle, metabolic rate, whatever. But they're all relative, they're all the same. Now some people treat bulks as like a bigger calorie jump,

but really it's all the same. I wanna mention, because I know we gave like a protocol of like, oh, bulk for this many weeks, cut for this, that, and what I don't wanna get into some science argument or debate with some dork online that, you know, tries to make some sort of argument that this is what the science says, it's better, it's like, this is a situation where every client of mine is going to be a little bit different.

And the psychology of what is going on with the client is most important. You could run a six week cut and then interrupt it with a three week bulk. There's lots of different ways you can do it. Really what I'm doing is I'm feeling the client out and the way the feedback they're giving me on how they feel, how their strength is, how hard it is for them to eat this much food. And that is a lot that has more to do with it than like what the science says on what is the most fastest optimal way to burn body fat or build muscle. And this is a classic example of a conversation like that.

That's more important. Our next caller is Kelly from North Carolina. Hi Kelly. How are you? Hi, good, how are you? Very good. How can we help you? Thank you so much for having me on.

Actually, I was on about two years ago when I had first started my reverse diet journey. So I will go ahead and get into it. um, my, uh, reverse diet, um, uh, journey. So I will go ahead and get into it. I'll just read my email or I'll ramble. Um, so dear mind pump, I'm 44 year old, five, but three female who's been following maps programs and now coaches program, uh, programming for the last two and a half years. I've gone from 127 pounds

at about 30% body fat to 142 pounds and think I'm still around 30% body fat. I've got my calories up from up to around 1900 from an average of 1000 in the first five months. But beyond that, my weight shoots up and sort of my body fat. So for the last two years, I've been holding steady in the weight department and body and trying to do body recomp, even though I continue to get stronger, I can still do the same amount of pull ups. So I know I'm getting stronger because if I'm way that much more and I can do the same amount of pull ups and I know

that that's an indicator of strength. I also realized that some of the weight was muscle or wouldn't have maintained the undesirably high 30% body fat. It would have gotten even higher. I now have traps, so I have something to put the bar on for squats, since it's not bone. And I'm able to do decline sit-ups without getting a raw spot that I forget about until I get in the shower. Both are much appreciated. However, I thought I would lean out more by now,

especially since kind of the focus is always to be trying to get healthier and then the aesthetics will follow. So should I focus on hypertrophy hypertrophy style training more? For the last two and a half years, I followed the following program. So I started with the RGB bundle, then I went to symmetry, did strong, loved strong, anabolic advanced, all-time strength, also a big fave, muscle mommy. And now I'm doing workouts with my coach, Christina Hathaway, from the mindset of Matterwitch. Thank you. You guys are the ones who introduced me to her. Awesome. I want to get some clarity though. Kelly, we talked to you just a year ago, because you say you've been following mass programs for two and a half years, but we didn't get you

on the reverse diet until about a year ago, is that correct? No, I was on the show about two years ago, and I had started the reverse diet at that point, yeah. Kelly, I gotta tell you, you're kicking ass. So just, okay, look, you're 127 pounds at 30% body fat versus 142 at 30% body fat, your height. The aesthetics have followed.

So you are, first off, you're healthier. So same body fat percentage, more muscle, more fitness and stronger, you're kicking ass. Your body, I guarantee, looks a lot better at the same body fat percentage with more muscle than it did before at less with less muscle same body fat percentage and you did gain a considerable amount of muscle which improves things like mobility your insulin sensitivity androgen receptor density so I'm probably gonna I'm gonna guess that your things like sleep libido energy

probably significantly better and you also doubled your calories. So 900 calorie bump is great, but when you put it in the context of the fact that you're eating 1,000 calories before, okay? So a 900 calorie bump for anybody is a lot. That's like, that would take like two hours of cardio for somebody to try to burn that, and your body's doing that on its own,

but when you put it in the context of you've almost doubled your calories, that's significant. So the aesthetics are following, and now the question I have to ask for you is how long were you in the low calorie phase four before you started the reverse diet two years ago? I had maintained 127 for about five years. So would you say it was always around a

thousand calories around that time? Yeah. Okay. So you ate really, by the way, a thousand calories. We're actually advised in our certification courses, not that those are the be all end all, but they actually say in there do not take clients below 1200 calories. So in 1200 calories is low. I would never take somebody below 1200 calories for longer than a couple days because now you're messing with essential nutrients. So you were in a really low calorie intake for a long time.

It's gonna take a while for your body to start to get comfortable with the higher calories in the sense that, to put it differently, if you keep doing what you're doing, you will start to see yourself get leaner. It's just gonna take a little while. A thousand calories is really low for a long time. And you actually have made incredible progress

in a short period of time already. I already did the math. I know it doesn't probably feel like that to you because I know what it probably feels like. It feels like you've been disciplined and consistent and eating more and it's just like, and you're seeing the body fat percentage about the same, but when you do the breakdown

of where your strength has come, how much muscle you've put on, how many calories you're eating, you are really kicking ass in that context. But I get it. I know the part where it feels like you've done so much and you should see way more, but you have seen a lot. It's just, and by the way, when I have clients,

if we get, and I hope you're not that stuck here, but when you're really, really stuck and I just can't, I would sometimes will interrupt them with a cut for four weeks just to show them like what you've done already. Like I could take you down and Christina could take you down to 12, 1300 calories for a few weeks and you will definitely lose some weight.

You're gonna lean out. You will. I mean, cause you've already built a metabolism now that is maintaining at 1900 calories, so taking you down to 13, which by the way is still higher than what you were before, and you'd be leaning out. So if I needed to do that to show you like what you've done because you're not grasping it, sometimes I would do that with a client. Like, let me get, okay, the next month, we're cutting. We're gonna cut for a month. I'm gonna show you what you've already accomplished in this period of time just to show you how much better control you have your metabolism But I still would be telling you I want to go further

I want to get you up to more like 24 or 26 hundred calories and we're heading there You're doing great And if you don't believe me that we're gonna get there then I can show you what you've already accomplished to try and get you to Get bought back into what I'm doing with you and encourage you that you're doing get there, then I can show you what you've already accomplished to try and get you to get back into what I'm doing with you and encourage you that you're doing a great job already. You've gained something like 12 pounds of lean body mass. Yeah. So with the same body fat, just even from an aesthetic

point of view, and I'm only communicating this because that's typically what we tend to focus on. It's like, okay, how I look, what's going on here? 12 pound increase in lean body mass with the same body fat percentage looks very different. You know if you take a man who is 20% body fat without that much muscle and you have him take his shirt off and then you have another man with a lot of muscle with 20% body they look very different even though the body

fat percentage is the same. Just from an aesthetic, forget the health perspective, I don't need to argue that. From a health perspective you're far better off now. You'll be curvier. You'll have more definition in your quads, your butt, your shoulders. You have shape. You have good shape to you. But you're totally moving in the right direction.

You're moving in a really good direction. And you can do the cut like Adam said, just to let yourself feel a little better, but you're crushing. What's Christina telling you? Yeah, she's actually just, as of like like last week moved me into our first cut. Yeah, there you go. Probably just probably for the exact reason.

Just to help you feel better. Probably for the exact reasons I'm telling you right now. It's just to show you. And only taken me down to like 15 to 16. That's good. And how much stronger are you? You've got to feel so much stronger. Yeah, I am, so I'm in the forum,

and so I was Christina's person that she shared that was doing stuff for her husband because my husband is disabled and I have to be able to move him around. I remember. And he weighs about 260 pounds, so like my goal is to get my deadlift up to 260 pounds so I can move him. Good girl, wow. Good job, where you at? Where you at get my deadlift up to 260 pounds so I can move it. Oh wow.

Good job. Where are you at? Where are you at with your deadlift? So I'm 230. I had to tweak my back a little bit. So I'm almost there. You're strong as hell. Yeah, yeah.

You're so far away from where you were. Just stay patient. Trust the process with Christina. She knows what she's doing. She's a great trainer. She understands the mindset of it too, obviously. So and I'm, I'm, I'm certain that's why she's giving you this cut right now. It's probably because you've expressed this to her. And she

just wants to show you but I bet you she prefer that you continue to reverse diet and get your calories up even higher because you can afford to go higher for sure. Okay. If you've got time, can I ask a second question? So what would be a healthy body fat level for females with overall goals of health span and not wanting to look like a busted can of biscuits naked? If metabolism is linked to tissue would focus on hypertrophy increase the BMR more than strength because I think of like those strong guys like You got when Jordan Siet did his like four times bodyweight deadlift and then you see like the Anatolian Malkin on Instagram and stuff. So there are these tiny guys, but they're ridiculously strong. Yeah strength is interesting strength is is a skill

It's a central nervous system. It's muscles working together and then it's also the size of muscles. Both hypertrophy and strength seem to be connected to metabolic rate. So I so now here's why I tell you to chase strength. Chasing muscle size and hypertrophy can be tricky because muscle size is greatly influenced by things like hydration, pump, perception, carbohydrates. Strength is very objective and so I like chasing strength until you're so strong where it starts to get stupid. Like, you know, okay, like I don't think we should keep pushing strength because the risk factor is now so high for injury, but I like strength.

Strength is a much better, it's a more objective metric to continue to measure. So, and muscle follows strength. It almost always follows strength. So I would continue to chase that. And chasing hypertrophy is definitely deceiving. Totally. To the point that it sounds like there'll be times, and I remember this when I was competing,

when I knew I was doing everything perfect, but then I look in the mirror and I look like I went the wrong way. And so if you use that as your guide, for most people, that can really steer you in the wrong direction or discourage you when you're flat and you're not hydrated or you don't have carbohydrates. Yet you're doing everything perfect as far as hitting your calorie intake, strength, your programming, everything else. But because you're focused on the look of the muscle, a hypertrophy, how big it is or not,

and you go, oh my God, I look like I lost muscle this week, but you hadn't. So I always prefer to use strength as them. Even with my competitors, by the way, that are in the sport of how they look, I still want to use strength as our metric that drives us towards what we focus on. And to answer the question about body fat percentage,

body fat percentage in comparison to a simple grip strength test to predict all-cause mortality, the strength test greatly outperforms it. To put it differently, a woman at 40% body fat with lots of strength and good fitness is going to have better odds with longevity or health span than a woman at 15% body fat who has very little muscle and very little mobility. And it's it'll be a drastic difference. The 15% female with low muscle, low mobility has actually a high mortality rate. So I wouldn't worry and you're well within, I mean, your 30% is fine. You're totally fine. If you're fit, you're strong, you're perfectly fine.

So I wouldn't worry about that. Okay. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You got it. Doing good, guys. Thanks for calling in. Good job. Good questions. I like that kind of question. She almost doubled her calories. And again, I want to say this to people right now. Muscle versus no muscle, same body fat percentage. From a looks, forget health, it looks way different. A woman at 30% body fat with muscle,

she has a butt, she's got shape, the body fat falls where it's supposed to. Versus 30% with no muscle, which looks like it's just kinda hanging on you. Same thing for men. It makes a, muscle makes a huge difference. Getting caught up on the scale can really screw people's perception.

I mean, I like this question and this conversation because this is so common with clients that would be doing such a great job, but because they're not happy quite yet where the aesthetics are, they don't realize how good of a job that they're doing. And I get it, right, because in her head, she's like, man, I've been doing this for two years

and I watch what I eat and I hit my workouts and it's just like, you know, yeah, I'm a little stronger. Yeah, some of these libido, yeah, okay, but I thought I'd see so much more. But you have to understand where you're coming from. One of the hardest clients to help as far as changing, especially body composition, is somebody that has come from an extremely chronic,

low diet where you've been malnutritioned for a long period of time, and you have slowed your metabolism down to where you hold body fat at thousand calories a day. Taking that client, especially the longer that you were, so if you were years in that low calorie, hanging at that body fat, it's gonna take us a while to get it out of that. And she's actually, I've seen clients the longer that you were. So if you were years in that low calorie, hanging at that body fat percentage,

it's gonna take us a while to get it out of that. And she's actually, I've seen clients see way less results in two years time over this process. So the fact that she has doubled her calories, got stronger, maintained her body fat percentage, put on probably 12 pounds of muscle, I mean, that's actually really phenomenal. But I would have to do this sometimes

where it's just like, okay, do I need to show you that we can drop five, 10 pounds real quick. I'll show you where you drop that real quick. But then I'm gonna want you to come back the other way. Just to show, and so I do that sometimes with a client to rebuild trust that I know what I'm doing and I got you. Our next caller is Jessica from Florida.

Hey. How you doing, Jessica? Good to see you again. Hello. Hi guys, so great to see you. Thank you so is Jessica from Florida. Hey, how you doing Jessica? Good to see you again. Hello. Hi guys, so great to see you. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. You got it.

Who's the little guy? Is that your boy? Yes, so this is Griffin. He is six months old. We actually met at the Arnold, or not the Arnold, the Olympia in last year in December. Um, I know you guys met a lot of people totally understand he was actually with us.

Did you know, did you know at that time? No, I had no idea. He is so cute. That's awesome. Well, you look great already. Rebounded. Rebounded very nicely. I see. Yeah. Thank you so much. Um, really tried to go about it the right way. The way I would want all my clients to go about it, you know, definitely prioritizing just core recovery and you know those first four weeks not doing anything except being present with him, establishing our bond and everything. So that was definitely the shift. It was very hard for me, but definitely was worth it because it really led to really great recovery afterwards.

Awesome. Yeah. And so I know you guys have a lot going on and I don't know how much time he's going to give me. So is it cool if I have different parts to my question? Would you guys like me to just go one at a time? Yes. Yeah, let's do one at a time? Yes, let's do one at a time. Yes, let's do that.

Cool, awesome. All right, thanks guys. So I emailed this question at four and a half months postpartum, currently six. Started muscle mommy. Love it, by the way. It's fantastic. So been lifting consistently for four years

and competed in the bikini division for two years. Continued lifting with modifications all through pregnancy, did a slow gradual progression back like we just talked about. So I was super excited to start Muscle Mommy and just try to gain that muscle back. With that being said, when I started phase one, the reasoning behind the upper body focus. So I am all about a good full body split and truthfully it's's all I have the time for but just feel like And this might just be because of what I'm used to with programming, but there there wasn't a lot of lower body work being implemented So would love your rationale on incorporating only two leg focus movements within And now that I've almost finished well well I finished phase one and phase two. So those two leg focus movements, those glute focus movements, just really wanted to stay bought

into the program and everything and I would love to go into a five-day split again but I know that's not realistic with time. So just want to, I trust y'all's knowledge but just want to know the why behind it. This always comes from my bikini competitors. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. Well, no, it's not. It's not your fault. It's just that there is a massive, uh, like, so when, when we coach and train bikini competitors, there tends to be this massive emphasis on lower body. It's not that the program is upper body heavy and lower and less lower

body is that you are used to a significantly high volume of lower body in comparison. You have more muscles in your upper body. You've only got a couple muscles that we're training in your lower body. So relative to how many muscles you have in your lower body versus how many you have in your upper body, it's balanced. It's balanced the way it should be balanced. But Bikini competitors hammer the shit out of their legs. Hammer it.

Now, if you were my client, I would, before we modify it, I'd personally want you to attempt to do it and see what you notice and see if we, because what I, because I've trained a lot of bikini competitors and I got a lot of bikini competitors after somebody else coached them and I've had to undo a lot of programming and training that other coaches did. And the recipe for most coaches with bikini competitors is just more of everything. More ass, more legs, more cardio. That's how they answer every problem of, oh, you want more glute development? Cool. We'll just pile more leg stuff on instead of balancing the program out or pulling back something like they should. Same thing, every problem of, oh, you want more glute development, cool, we'll just pile more leg stuff on. Instead of balancing the program out or pulling back something

like they should, same thing goes on their attempt to lean out. More cardio. You were doing an hour every day, let's do two hours every day. It's just it's not the appropriate volume, intensity that should be applied for the desired outcome. So if you were my client, I would

want you to go through it as it's laid out and trust the process. Now, if you finished it and you look back at me and said, Adam, I'm telling you, my ass looked way better when I was doing this and this, then I would say, okay, let's start to add some things in there, maybe some hip thrust that we'll let you do for an extra day of the week or some other ways

that we could overload the body and then maybe I pull back on some of your, maybe you can look at me and go, Adam, I've got great shoulders and arms. I don't really need to touch them much. So maybe we scale back some of that volume. And that's where I put in some of the butt stuff or leg stuff that you may be missing.

But I'm telling you right now, the way that program is laid out, it is laid out to build your legs just perfectly. But I know I always get this when I get bikini competitors to get ahold of it. This is muscle mommy we're talking about? Yes. Yeah there is more volume for the lower body. There is, it's plenty. Yeah and the problem is we divide the body into upper and lower but in the upper body you have pecs, delts, bais, tries and back. Lower body's quad

ham and glute and a lot of the exercises hit other muscles in the lower body. So squats, stiff-legged deadlifts, hip thrusts, they all hit the glutes. They all hit the hamstrings to some extent. So now if I did a bunch of isolation exercises for the lower body, then it would look similar. If I did quad, hamstring, calf, glute, hip flexor, abduction, adduction, well now it looks like,

now you're like, oh, now I'm doing an upper body style workout for my lower body. That's not how you train the lower body. So that's not for the, not for the best bang for your buck. And that's why I would want you to trust like what the programming go like, trust me if I got you doing these movements at this much volume and intensity, I bet you I'm going to show you some of the best legs you've ever had. But if you argued with me afterwards and said, no,

my legs were better when I did this way. Well, then as a coach, I would flex and go, okay, well then let's add some of those isolation exercises that keep you busier on your legs. But if you want the most efficient way to train that body and look the way you want to look, I would follow it the way it's laid out. Yeah, I definitely hear you. And it's funny, I wrote this at the very beginning, right? So I just started the last phase, the five by fives. And I don't know if you guys saw the progress photos that I sent over. So those were right before and they're right after.

And it's amazing. You look amazing. You look amazing. He's going to bring them up again. Let's see. I really appreciate that. I really do. And it's very, very funny. And

part of me, you know, the part of me who is always pushing for more is saying, okay, this is just your muscle coming. You know, you guys talk about all the time on the show, like, okay, muscle memory, right? So it's like, okay, Jess, this is just your muscle coming back. Like, it's not really, you know, you need to add more, you need to add more volume, because that's where my mind goes, right? Like as a former competitor, but hearing,

look at your ass and legs in this picture. By the way, I was shocked. Good. Okay. Good. I'm glad you're admitting that cause I can see it. And I, and I know this. I was so shocked. I had to go ahead and put them side by side because idiot me, I know better, but I was going off the scale. The scale was going up two to three pounds.

And I'm like, all right, get out of your own head, take your progress photos. And I was like, holy shit, dude. Like, wow. I felt like, dude, I'm only doing hip thrust. I'm only doing squats, like RDLs. Like, you know, I'm only doing, I think it's like six a week, six movements. And I'm only doing squats, like RDLs, like, you know, I'm only doing, I think it's like six a week,

six movements, and I'm like, wow, like, so, y'all, it is, and it's just very different style than what I'm used to, and you guys really put it into focus just now by saying, like, look at how many different parts of the upper body that you're training. You know, and so I am used to, like you're saying, Adam, where it's like, all right, we're doing hip abductions, we're doing kickbacks, we're doing all the accessory movements because we're growing,

growing, growing, growing the glutes. It is very interesting to see just the development that happened because with him, and that goes into another part of my question, it's a very big shift for me. I think the competing days might be gone just because of time and resources and so, you know a lot of it is gonna be like I Always want to beat him in a sprint race Like I don't want him to ever beat me like when he starts baseball like, you know, I was a former D1 catcher for softball like I would want to be out on the field with him and things

So, you know. It's not always going to be about growing my glutes. It's going to be about staying good. I know we're shifting away from the term longevity, but that's what I want for him. With that being said, my mobility has taken a little bit of a hit since having him. I don't know if it's just getting up and down with him a lot more. I'm able to by any means, but it just you start to feel it after a workout a little bit more. So do you guys have any certain mobility exercises you would recommend to a new mom postpartum or for me specifically, you know, I'm in the last phase of muscle

mommy what program to go to from here to help with kind of that performance aspect, but also the mobility. If you trust us now, and I've built that with you, then I'm going to take you to the next step that will probably blow your mind. And I would want you to follow MAPS Performance 15. Yeah, exactly. Which is going to give you more time with your kid, which is going to address all the mobility and performance aspects of the things you're saying. And guess what? I bet you continue to

build muscle too. And it will feel like you're going to be like screaming, oh my God, this is not enough. And I'm telling you right now, it's going to be enough and you're going to see amazing results from it. And I would love to take you through that because I think you're going to have this complete with it. And I would love to take you through that because I think you're going to have this complete, with all your experience of competing and taking it to the highest level and then us showing you kind of programming

and with a different philosophy, I think you're going to be, and then you being a mommy now, you're going to know right where to be. You're going to know how to weave in and out of those different modalities. You're going to know what they're going to give your body. And I think you will be blown away by MAPS 15 performance on what it will give you if you were to do that,

and trust me. Yeah, that's a perfect follow-up. And let me add something too, Jessica, that I've trained a lot of women pre, during, and post pregnancy, and I've trained people like you, who were very fit and strong going into pregnancy, I've also trained a lot of women who were very fit and strong going into pregnancy.

I've also trained a lot of women who were not exercising until they got pregnant and then we started training. The fact that you are where you are six months postpartum, as good as you look and as fit as you are, is a testament to how fit you were before you got pregnant. But I want to communicate something that is not communicated to women enough. Because the message that women tend to get From social media and from other women who aren't necessarily telling the truth is oh you're you'll bounce back six months or three months So look, I'm it. Here's my experience training Women athletes in particular you're not gonna feel a hundred percent like yourself until about a year and a half after

Takes about a year about a year and a half after. Takes about a year and a half. Now that doesn't mean you're not gonna be fit and strong and look good and all that stuff, but if you're comparing yourself to how you were peak before you got pregnant, takes about a year and a half to two years. Just because sleep, hormones, breastfeeding, and look, you know this very well,

you have very good body awareness because you're into fitness, that is a radical change that your body went through. It's not a small change. It is radical, it is very, your muscle recruitment patterns probably aren't still back to where they used to. I mean, you had this growing baby in your body, hormones changed, there are things that are released

like elastin that changes connective tissue. You have different, you know, catecholamine production, bonding chemicals now because you have a baby. You're not the same, it takes about a year and a half to two years for you to be like, oh, this is, I'm back to like where I used to be. Regardless, regardless, no matter what. But again, you're gonna, that doesn't mean

you're not gonna improve and get more fit in all that stuff. And again, for people watching, women watching, I'll say this to them, the results that Jessica is getting or the reason why she looks the way she does has less to do with the fact that she worked out while she was pregnant and after, is much more to do with the fact that she was very fit before she got pregnant.

And I wanna say that, cause women tend to compare and compete. And it can be very difficult to get pregnant and then afterwards, and you feel like your body's not yours. Am I doing enough? Am I not doing enough? What's going on type of deal? So just consider that.

I'm just super proud of you for being open-minded enough to follow Muscle Mommy the way it's laid out, and then also self-aware enough to take a picture before and actually compare it, because I know the psychological part of that that messes with people and my female bikini competitors sometimes are the hardest for me to get this message through to them As soon as I saw some of like the chest exercises and things I was like, oh come on like dude like you got me doing flat bench and But it's been yeah, it's been really, really great to see it.

And I, you know, I mean, you can't, I can't sit here and say like with your guys' knowledge, like, oh, I know better than them, right? Like I have the knowledge, I work with clients, but there's so much that you guys have done in your time that I'm like, I'm going for it. I'm gonna trust it. I'm gonna learn so much in this process.

And then hearing you guys answer the questions too, it just, it only helps me. So I really, really appreciate you guys so much for that. And I'm going for it as far as the performance. I'm terrified. I took a bit, I did the five by five for the first time yesterday and it might ego took a huge hit with squats.

Oh man, because like you guys are talking about with recruitment patterns in general, and maybe you guys can answer this, it really felt like a shock to my CNS putting that heavy weight on. And previously I was doing 225 for 10 and I was hitting 185 for five. And I was like, it brought me down for a minute, but just like you just said, Sal, I was like, come on, what would you tell your postpartum clients? You literally grew this amazing human right here. Come on.

Jessica, your brain changed, your physiology changed. Hormones changed, everything has changed. Look, I'll give you an example. I bet you're hypersensitive to sound at sleep now. Where as before you had soundly, you'd sleep so soundly now it's like I'm awake and I'm awake. I don't even need the monitor. His breathing changes and I'm awake. Your body is primed to put him as a priority. It's supposed to and I'm sure you wouldn't change that anyway. So you're not the same. I changed everything for him. I'm home right now and that was very hard for me,

but I really appreciated y'all's episode. I cannot remember who it was, but I talked about staying home with them. Oh, it was the teacher, Erica. Erica Comisar. Yeah, I mean, it was just this innate feeling in me that I needed to. And we figured it out, you know,

because I was like, I don't know what it is, Austin. My husband, I was like, I can't go back it is. Also, my husband, I was like, I can't, I can't go back. And then hearing that episode, it brought tears to my eyes. Cause I was like, I get it now. Like I know why. Good for you for listening. Good for you for listening. Awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. Just go over. I'm going to send over maps, 15 performance and love to hear back from you. You're a great person to stay in touch with as far as your progress through that. And, uh, we'd love to hear what you think. Absolutely. I can't thank you guys enough. There was one last thing just real quick. So Bulgarian split squats, single arm rows, elevated sumo squats. I have access to up to

40 pound dumbbells but have a full access to squat rack bar plates. What should be the difference when we have those six reps right like for Bulgarian split squats? Using a barbell versus using dumbbells how you know, is that is that something I should do or just slow down my tempo with the dumbbells? At this point slowing down the tempo is going to be important because of your pelvic floor recruitment and core stability, so you may find that your hips and low back are still a bit sensitive to load. So I would slow down and control intense to continue working on that stability.

That being said, there'll come a time where you get so strong that the dumbbells are no longer challenged. I mean, your grip strength is what limits you from loading more. It's a good bridge, yeah. And then you can move over. But I would definitely wait for that.

If you can still hold on to heavy enough that challenges you in the low rep range on the Bulgarians, I would keep doing that until you've progressed slowly past that. And then you could go to the barbell after that. And then we feel like either going landmine style with a single arm row. Great idea, yes.

Yeah. OK, all right. I appreciate that, guys. I can't thank you guys enough for taking my question. I'm excited and grateful for this guy for letting me do it. So. Yeah, look at that. Awesome, so awesome.

It's a sign. Yep. Yeah. Well, you guys are awesome. It was amazing meeting you guys at Olympia. Amazing talking to you guys now. Keep putting out amazing content, and we appreciate you so much.

Thank you, Jessica. Thanks, Jessica. What a happy, happy. What a Thank you. What a happy, what a great conversation. Yeah. I wasn't sure. I was like, Oh shit, this is going to be so difficult when she was talking, but I'm so glad that she stuck with it. And then she had the pictures because look at bro, how sick she looks crazy good for especially somebody in another perfect example to show when that question comes up because it doesn't come up quite a bit. I

always you I don't even tell you guys half the deal because I obviously with my competitive background I get a lot more of the competitors talking to me and they all the girls Muscle Mommy does not hear it to maps in a ball. It's so funny to me. That's in a ball. Muscle Mommy doesn't have enough legs Doesn't have enough legs. They know you've been training fucking legs the wrong way. That's what You can't just say that to them you know so you can't like I could be like the other coaches you know the insignificant do a bunch of fucking butt kicks and dog pees and like all these exercises that don't do shit for your ass if you want just to keep you busy

or I can program it in a way that you spend less time in the gym you get the most amount of results it's up to you but if you want me to put a bunch of fluff exercises you're busy which one you want. But I mean, this is what these coaches do. This is what is, this is one of the problems with the competitive space is the answer to every problem that a coach gets with a bikini competitor, which typically is I want more ass and legs, or I can't get lean enough, is throw more at them. It's just more things. Yeah. No rhyme or reason, no science to support it. Just, oh, you want more ass?

Here, add these to your workout. Oh, you're still not getting enough? Here, add these to your workout. Oh, you're not getting lean enough? Oh, add StairBaster for an hour. It's just like, dude, it's horrible. Our next caller is Adrian from Massachusetts. Hey, Adrian.

What's happening? How can we help you? Hey, guys, what's going on? How you doing? How much, man, what's going on? Oh, nothing much. Just amazing to be back here on with you guys. What you got for us? So I'll read my email. I was on a couple months ago and I emailed in again. A lot has changed since the last time we talked. I was on the show a few months ago with a question about my personal fitness. Given my busy work and home schedule,

I was a lawyer at the time, technically still a lawyer, but not practicing anymore. I'm writing back with another question. Last time we spoke, I wasn't overworked, overtrained attorney that was teaching group fitness on the side. I remember now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We briefly talked about how fitness was my passion and something I wanted to do despite being as busy as I was also having three kids. And at the time you prescribed MAPS 15. Fast forward to now, I'm probably still overworked and definitely over trained, but I've actually

left the firm that I was at. So I'm doing footness full-time now. So I decided to turn my passion for helping others and their fitness journey into my career. I'd love to have the opportunity, blessed to be on, to be able to pick your brains about the best strategies as I shift my career focus. In particular, shifting from that more kind of group fitness focus into building my own business.

At the time when I wrote this I said I was currently teaching 18 to 20 group classes a week. Now it's probably 12 to 15 so a little less across three different studios so three different companies but I also have a couple of one-on-one clients as well. And I know how you guys feel about group fitness and definitely see tons of people on that kind of hamster wheel that we talk about all the time without any long-term sustained change that I would love to help. And obviously from a business perspective, I know I can do better financially if I shift into from the class model to training more one-on-one. But I kind of see the studios that I teach at as places to make those connections in the industry,

meet people, learn, get leads, build my reputation in the space and in the city while I'm doing that. So what are some strategies you would employ to get clients and make this transition while I'm creating my own business? Thanks for everything that you do. Great place to plug clients for agent. I don't, how come I don't see you in our mentorship?

Why are you not in our course? I would really love to be in the course. I jump on every one of the free ones that pop up. But actually when I made that transition, I was a manager at one of the studios. That's part of, of was the plan, but they actually eliminated that role that I was in. So now it's kind of just the classes.

So the, the, the, the budget's a little tight right now is, is, is the only reason, honestly. Okay. Okay. Well, at least you're attending the courses. I'm glad you're doing that. We do have, we do have payments on it. So it's not a major thing out of the budget. It would really help you.

It would, because this is the type of stuff we talk about. This is, uh, the, the course is centered around how, cause what, what we did with the course and i just saw other trainers that are listening because I want to make sure it was clear We were not trying to compete with nasm ncsf afa all your national certifications that do a really good job of talking about nutrition physiology Biomechanics that was not what our goal was our goal was to fill the gap that we saw in the space where nobody talks about What you're asking. No course really puts a lot of energy and effort is, okay, I've decided I want to help people.

Okay, great. I've got the knowledge from these certifications. Now how the fuck do I make money? And where if I like group classes, if I want to do one on one, like that is the entire course. The entire course is to take whatever area of fitness that you are wanting to work in, how do you scale that, how do you use social media to build your business, how do you go online, everything you could think of, that's what that course is

about. So I just want to make that clear for everybody who's a trainer that's listening that this is that's what that course, and by the way it's accredited now, so it actually, if you have any certifications which I'm sure you do if you're a trainer, it now adds a CEUs for that to extend it for two more years. So just so everybody knows that. But I love group classes as a way to plot clients. I don't know if you know this, but when Mindpump first started, I was teaching at Orange Theory, which is group classes.

Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, I've heard that. Okay. So and one of my favorite things to do is at the end of every class, I don't know if your classes, you currently do cool downs or you kind of like at the very end. So I use that five to 10 minutes to educate and teach. Now you've got us. So you have a podcast to reference, which is, and I had the podcast to reference.

So what I would do and you, and the way I would decide this is follow the flow of the podcast. So hopefully you listen when you listen to an episode you're like oh man when the guys broke down macros the other day that was really good information. So that becomes my topic in cooldown today is I and I'm only gonna give a nugget like I'm gonna give a nugget of science a nugget of information so they they go go huh really? You think I should eat more calories? Or you think and to get them questioning what I have to say? And then I would reference a podcast. Hey, if you guys want more information about it, my buddies over at Mindpub just did a great episode where they dive deep into the science of what I'm talking about. If you're interested in what I'm

trying to teach you guys right now, go check that out. And so I would just keep doing that every episode. And now I became the guy that was teaching all this information outside what all these other teachers were teaching, no one was teaching in the class, they were just running the classes, but I was educating and informing, right? And then after class, I started getting people that would be hanging around all the time.

And those all ended up being great leads, because these are the people that like, I struck a nerve with them, they were the people. And I knew what I was doing, I would like see these people that weren't progressing with their bodies, and they're coming up to my classes every day. And so a lot of times I did give tips about that. It has something to do with them being at a metabolically adapted and they're not seeing the results that they're putting all this work in. And if that's you, this is the people that I help out. And then like you just leave those little nuggets to get them to ask questions afterwards. And then you have somewhere that you can send them. Now, you can send them to the episode or in a perfect world if you were in our course and we're mentoring you, I'd tell you, okay, this is how we build a freemium or something

that you can offer these people so they can become on your email list. So let's say you have these fitness tips, the next thing you do, which by the way, if you had our CRM, this is what we give all of our trainers that have our CRM. So if you go to mindpumpfree.com, there's over $2 million worth of digital assets that we've created over the last 10 years. When you have our CRM, you get those for you. They're yours. Now you can use those to capture email leads

for your business. So now you have your class and you talk about the best ways to lose body fat. You give a couple of tips from the guy to go, oh, by the the way if you guys want more information, I have this free guide that was written and it's you know this many pages, it's totally free, go to my website here and now you have these people downloading it and now they're in your email list, now you can nurture those people. You can start to add more value to them and then eventually hopefully turn them into phone calls that you turn into clients or sell them on group class training or sell them on one-on-one personal training

I mean we could talk all day about this stuff But this is the type of stuff we talk about. I already like talked to some people one-on-one who I kind of know like you Mentioned you can kind of see you know that they need they they're looking for that type of Connection and I've recommended the podcast for lots of different things, you know There are definitely people come to me about issues and I'm like, oh, hey, there's, there's a great podcast that I listened to that's really point keys in on that topic. And I'll send them an episode that's specific to whatever it is that they're thinking on or the key is that we want to and people are good at this and social media. Some people are not like your platform you use, but the goal is

to get these people that you're already seeing or paying attention to you in classes or online and to get them into like an email list where you can then nurture meaning give them more value so that you've got them interested. You now get them in your email list and then every week they're getting some sort of a value add. It could be a recipe. It could be science and tips. It could be whatever, but you're just that way you train them to like, man, this dude,

Adrian, I mean, he's helped me out in my class I read his emails. He's always teaching me all this stuff. And then what do you do like every like couple weeks? You go. Oh by the way, if you need help with these things, I have a free consultation. You just book it right here It's a 15-minute consultation. I can help you about your nutrition or any questions You have about exercise and then you get them on the phone and now you got them on the phone now They're more likely to convert into a client, right? especially if they've gone through that process of downloading your free guide, getting your email,

opening your emails, and listening to all the free stuff you're giving them. You've built all this cred, right? You've built all this credibility with them of value, value, value. Now they're also willing to get on the phone with you. That's a hot lead. That's a person who's probably gonna buy personal training,

especially if you can communicate helping them out. Yeah, no, that's great. I mean, that obviously all makes sense. That was the best I could give you in like two minutes. I mean, I'm trying to give you a lot as fast as I can. It's a broad topic, I'm sure, from here to top. Adrian, are you doing group classes in different locations? Yep, yeah, yeah.

And there's like three different companies, but six different studios. So I'm like in Boston, which in Massachusetts, but kind of all over the city in lots of different areas. So I'm hitting lots of different demographics. Where are you doing your one-on-ones? Yeah. Where do you do your one-on-one clients?

So primarily out of one of the studios that has like kind of the biggest setup for the gym and they have tons of weight racks and obviously a good setup to be able to have clients through. You're going to probably need to consolidate, uh, and start to focus on one. And if, and if you want to move towards personal training and give yourself a good six months to a year to really get good at it, uh, a big box gyms, just give you that free training.

You make less per hour, but they've got all the structures, you've got mentors. And if you want, you can move up the ranks and become a general manager or something like that in there, but you're in the process of learning, especially with the one-on-one. But being so spread out, it's gonna be very hard for you to build your one-on-one that way,

unless your goal is online. If you want to just do online coaching, when you can spread out, you're totally fine, but if you wanna do one-on-one in person, you might want to consolidate, uh, you're, you're just kind of where you're at. Cause that's, that sounds like you're pretty spread out. Pay attention to two the same way that I'm going to get you to buy the course is the same way you should get somebody to invest in your personal

training. So like, if you don't get off the phone with me right now and purchase like you should, you're going to continue to get value from me for free. I'm going to make sure you show up to all those free webinars that we do, get into our free forum, am I crazy? Continue to help you, continue to answer questions, continue to give you value on making you better trained till finally you go like, fuck man, what am I doing? Every time I talk to this guy,

he gives me some sort of good advice, why haven't I got his course? And then you invest. The same thing works when you're a personal trainer, not everybody's gonna buy personal training from him right away. So value, value, value, educate them, help them, and every way that you can, on your social media, on your emails, every time you meet them, do

webinars, do free classes, do all that stuff, right? I used to love teaching. If I have group classes, I used to love giving free mobility days where I would, if you have that place where you can do it in person, see if they will allow you to have an hour or two a week that you can have a whole area where you can hold 50, 20, 30 people and start talking to people about the benefits of mobility, then hold a free mobility class in there where you get all these people one-on-one where you have a full hour with them to help them with mobility drills and squatting and movements. And now that becomes a lead source.

But the point is I'm giving value, value, value to you until then eventually they go, man, I got to hire this Adrian guy because every time he talks to me or meets me he's helping me with stuff why haven't I invested in him yeah I mean I know that that model I mean or even with your programs I was listening as a listener for probably maybe a year plus before I bought a program right same thing it was like man eventually I was like I gotta get it you know they know what they're talking about it definitely hearing all these people talking about it so yeah no I see, I see that. Same formula, same formula, brother. We hope to see you in that.

I really think you would benefit from it. You can do monthly payments. And I mean, it's, I don't know how many hours of coaching and training that we provide in that. And then look at the CRM. I mean, being a lawyer, you're probably very organized in your business. The CRM is gonna organize your business

as a personal trainer. So it does your email sequencing, allows you to put together resources which we give you that you can you can capture leads with, it consolidates all your messaging in one place, accept payments, like it literally is a system that organizes. You have some apps programs in there. Yes. So lots of tools and handy things in there. So yeah, the more you go through it, you're gonna see the value in it.

When you're ready for us, we're ready for you, bro. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Appreciate that. But hey, in the meantime, when you get on those free webinars that you keep showing up to, challenge Sal and I when we're doing them. Ask us these types of questions. I mean, that's our goal is to help you guys out

as much as we possibly can, even if you don't invest in the course, right? I'd like to see you guys continue to improve and grow your business. So make sure when you show up to see you guys continue to improve and grow your business. So make sure when you show up to those challenges with all these types of questions, and I'll continue to try and give you value. Yeah, I mean, question about that in terms of,

I mean, maybe kind of covered it a little bit, but like in particular, like with the group fitness, you know, it's always, I find it hard to, even when I talk to people one-on-one, right? Kind of get them out of the like, oh, well, I, you know, I love my class, and it's of get them out of the like, oh, well, I love my class and it's just, it's so much fun and, you know, but it's better than not doing anything

and I probably couldn't work out on my own because it's boring, right? Like, you know, how do, you know, what types of... So that's because they have to like, have those conversations. So that's what, this is where they're like getting them over to the email list so you can slowly have them, right? Because you're not in 15 minutes talking to somebody who's been

doing group classes forever. They gotta leave. Like I would never try and convince anybody class. What I would do is I give them these little nuggets that make them question what they're doing. So like I would like for here's an example like in those classes they tend to train with circuits. Right? And they don't ever rest. They don't do rest periods. They don't understand the benefits of that. So I would explain the benefits of rest periods. And a lot of times when people don't understand this, this is how they get stuck in a plateau and why they don't see their strength increase anymore.

That would cause the questions of, what were you talking about this? I said, I tell you what, why don't we do this? Give me your email list. I'll send you an email. I can help send you some articles, explain more in detail when we have more time, because I know I only have five minutes before my next class. And then I wanna get them that now, once I have their email, I can help send you some articles, explain more in detail when we have more time because I know I only have five minutes before my next class.

And then I want to get them that now once I have their email, I can contact them. And then over time, I can build their trust by educating, adding value. And then eventually you get the buying question. But trying to convince like the one of the worst thing trainers do is try and convince people what they're doing is wrong. They'll put a wall up right away. They'll put a wall up right away. And they're not going to even if you are the smartest guy ever and have all the science and information to tell what they're doing is wrong. They'll put a wall up right away. They'll put a wall up right away and they're not gonna, even if you are the smartest guy ever and have all the science and information to tell them they're doing wrong, that's not the way. That's just to tell my trainers, the difference between a good closer and a great closer

is a good closer can push somebody and guilt them into buying something. A great closer can pull them into a sell. The way you pull them into is by continually like leaving them in these bread crumbs to get them to finally go like okay, Adrian, I don't get it. What's what's so you saying? I shouldn't take these classes or do you think these classes are good for me? Nah, that's what i'm looking for. I'm looking for you to ask me that question to open the door

so I can then educate you on what would be better for you. Yeah, get that email list going. Definitely. All right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate all that. All right, Adrian. You got it, man. Thanks for calling. Take it easy, bro.

Yeah, have a great day. You got it. Yeah. To take them from group to one-on-one, you need to have a buffer in between them and trying to close them at the classic. People love those classes, dude. Yeah. And then they got to leave, too. Oh, I gotta get take off and I just finished my workout.

I, it was, the move was, okay, I'm watching people, right? I see these same people in the class every day. I'll just use some common ones that were very easy. People that do repetitive movements, running on a treadmill, circuit type training, you see all kinds of imbalances and deviations. Or I hear them complaining, oh, my shin splints and my knees and my hips. Okay, so I hear that. I hear people complaining

about their hips. What do I know? I can see the way they're training. So they're running in the sagittal plane. They do everything in the sagittal plane. They don't do anything in multi-planar movements. They don't do any sort of mobility to address that. So after class, the next day, that's my tip. My tip is how to avoid hip pain. One of the things you must be doing are movements like this. By the way, if you want more information, I got this guide for you guys. And then when people go like, huh? What? And they either one ask me, you know what? Hey, why don't you give me your number or email? I'll call you, we can spend more time talking.

I don't have time in their class. Or here's my free guide that goes into detail about what I'm talking about. And now I capture capture that email What I don't do right then is try and tell somebody like well I know why your hip hurts and then no I I'm gonna try and drip Education information science help value to get them to ask me a question Once they ask me a question that door is open now I can give them the things like the guides or a free call or an email Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is at Mind Pump, Justin.

I'm at Mind Pump with Stefano. Adam's at Mind Pump. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com.

The RGB Super Bundle includes maps anabolic, maps performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having

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