Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2562: Seven-Time Mr. Olympia Winner Phil Heath

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

 Seven-Time Mr. Olympia Winner Phil Heath Dropping the scale and living life. (1:10) Uncle Phil. (7:35) Breaking down his attachment to basketball. (10:01) His path into bodybuilding. (19:15) When did he get into strict bodybuilding? (25:21) His mentality on taking gear to enhance his physique. (30:50) Bringing pleasure to his soul. (36:50) Did he make bodybuilding an idol? (40:33) His experience with intestinal strangulation. (45:15) His relationship with Jay Cutler. (49:29) Is the rivalry with Kai Greene still there? (53:56) Ahead of the curve when it comes to recovery modalities. (59:03) The biggest missing piece when it comes to longevity. (1:04:10) The challenge with body dysmorphia in bodybuilding. (1:09:58) Making a change with his name and voice. (1:18:29) Does he have a favorite era of bodybuilding? (1:27:44) Is he a fan of the classic? (1:33:02) The golden era of strength training. (1:36:00) The ultimate gym social experiment. (1:39:07) Practicing mindfulness and coming into faith. (1:43:21) Coaches being more famous than the athlete. (1:49:05) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit MASSZYMES by biOptimizers for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Promo code MINDPUMP10 at checkout** March Promotion: MAPS Performance or MAPS Performance Advanced 50% off! ** Code MARCH50 at checkout ** How athletes are faster, better, stronger: David Epstein at TED MuscleSound | Point-of-Care Software to Diagnose Malnutrition Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Phil Heath (@philheath) Instagram Website Tim Grover (@timgrover) Instagram Jay Cutler (@jaycutler) Instagram  Ronnie Coleman (@ronniecoleman8) Instagram Arnold Schwarzenegger (@schwarzenegger) Instagram Kai Greene (@kaigreene) Instagram Bret Weinstein (@bret.weinstein) Instagram Dorian Yates (@thedorianyates) Instagram  Chris Bumstead (@cbum) Instagram Logan Franklin (@logan_franklin) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go Mind pump with your hosts Sal DeStefano Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews You just found the most downloaded fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is mind pump today's episode. We had seven time mr. Olympia Phil Heath on the podcast. It was a great conversation. Of course, we talked about bodybuilding, competing, we talked about life, we talked about spirituality, talked about training. You're going to love this episode. Now, this episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors, BiOptimizers. They make mast enzymes. These are digestive enzymes for people who are into fitness. Digestive enzymes help break down proteins, proteins fats and carbohydrates, improve digestion, get those nutrients to where you need them. Go check them out. Go

to buyoptimizers.com that's B-I-O-P-T-I-M-I-Z-E-R-S.com forward slash mind pump. Use the code mind pump 10 for 10% off. We also have a sale this month. MAPS performance and MAPS performance advanced both 50% off. If you're interested go to MAPSfitnessproducts.com and then use Advanced, both 50% off. If you're interested, go to mapsfitnessproducts.com and then use the code MARCH50 for the discount. All right, here comes the show. Phil, welcome to the show. Legend.

It's been a while, we've been wanting you on for a little while. Man, I've been wanting to get on here. Awesome. Finally. Awesome, awesome. So I want to open with this, so you walk in, and you've been retired now for a while,

you look like you could get been retired now for a while, you look like you could get on a stage in a few months. I asked you your body weight, you said you just, let's back up for a second, I asked you if you weighed yourself, you said you just recently weighed yourself, but you had gotten rid of scales for a long time. Okay, so let's talk about that for a second. I want to talk about your size now and all that.

Yeah, so I just didn't care to weigh myself anymore, because it was becoming such an obsession. Being a pro bodybuilder, anybody that competes or anyone that even works out, they're always checking the freaking scale multiple times a day and I realized, I'm on this scale way too much. I didn't weigh my food for a while.

I just wanted to know what it felt like just to eat, train, rest, just live life. And I didn't want to put any unnecessary pressures on myself by weighing, you know, because if I get on the scale and say, oh, well normally off season I'd be 275 to 280 pounds, competing 245 to 250, if I get on the scale now, and I'm 245, 250, I'm gonna feel less of myself.

And I didn't wanna put that on myself. So I just say, you know what, I'm getting rid of it. But come the new year, I'm like, okay, I need to know. Because people are gonna ask. So I appreciate you saying what you said earlier, because my intention wasn't to stop lifting or stop looking like a bodybuilder that could compete. I find it very valuable that I was able to walk away from the sport, you know,

obviously, you know, earning those trophies and such, but then being able to have the option to say, you know what, if I really wanted to do one more, I could and do it safely. But yeah, I love this part of my journey right now and not having that unnecessary pressure with the scales and stuff. So you're talking about a 30 pound weight difference, which sounds like a lot to a lot of people, but not for a pro.

30 pounds lighter still makes you still massive, tons of muscle. Was that intentional? Did that just come off with changes in training and supplements and all that stuff? Yeah, it just naturally came off. I mean, not running the same protocols and stuff, you know, being like having to be, you know,

in the gym once if not twice a day, six days a week, eating over 5,000 calories, you know, and we're talking like seven, eight times a day, which was a complete job. Well, yeah. You know, just so much stress. Like I hated having to eat that much. I can get away now with literally eating twice a day and be happy and still maintain the size.

So that's really what happened. I stopped eating as much as stopped training as hard, um, and as frequent to be quite fair. You know, I went through, I would say, I don't know if it's a natural transition, um, meaning like emotionally toward the gym, but when I got done competing, I was just like, I don't wanna do this anymore. You were gym averse.

Yeah, like I just, you know, I was still getting in shape for a movie that I was supposed to be a part of, and then when that did not happen, I was like already spent, because I did the 2020 Olympian December 2020. I was getting ready for a film in July and they wanted me a certain way. They wanted me like, they saw a picture of me like when I competed at 225 to 28. So imagine competing 20 pounds heavier, having to now go 20 pounds more for a movie role that you didn't appear in but still got paid,

I was totally wiped. And after that I was like, I need a real break. I don't even wanna see the gym for like a few months. And unfortunately with social media, you run into this problem where like, if I'm not in a gym, you're almost not as relevant, so to speak. So you have to keep up up a certain type of physique.

So I did that for quite some time, just going in there, knowing my strengths and weaknesses. Just like, I'm just gonna try, I can get pumped and still look the part. And the transition, it was really, really tough. I cannot always I cannot, always put into words like how it felt. It was very depressing. You know, cause you would think like,

oh, you won all these titles and stuff. And I'm like, but I retired still knowing that I could compete. And I think it was just one of those times where you had to say goodbye to something, but you didn't know how to welcome something new. And you know, I think that's a regular progression for people at a high level. I was able to talk to some of my friends, like Tim Grover is a great friend of mine. You

know, I asked him, I was like, how was, you know, the late Kobe Bryant, like, how did he, you know, like, what was in his mind? He was like, yeah, you're kind of a lot like him. Like, you always want to go, go, go. And I was like, well, how was MJ like? He was like, same. I was like, do you have nightmares about like to continue to do it? He goes, that's gonna stick with you forever because you're just a competitive dude so you're gonna have to find something else that you can be competitive at. So what I've done now is just have

a different emotional attachment to food, different emotional attachment to working out. And it's been a lot, I'd say easier, but I will say when I get into the gym and let's say I train say, like, when I get into the gym, and let's say I train it a whole month, I start feeling like the dream killer wanting to compete again. So I'm like, this weird situation

where I'm having to keep him away, keep him satisfied. Because who doesn't, I don't know how to describe it. Imagine being in this body, you can transform into the greatest, one of the greatest of all time. And even me saying that, I'm like, it's not even arrogant anymore. It's actually real. Tyler Schwarzenegger, like holy crap.

And you can get pumped and hop on some gear and actually probably go compete at a very high level and beat some guys. And then you have your fans who just want one more and then you have to tell them every show you go to, I have something else. But overall, I mean, I'm very blessed. I thank God so much and I've had to literally take advice from my wife and say, thank, like I have to look in the mirror and thank my body for what I put it through because there's bodybuilders and pros that aren't here. So I have to be very much in gratitude for what I accomplished.

Have you been able to shuttle any of that into mentoring other bodybuilders or have you kind of taken anybody under your wing or, because I know how difficult that is, is like an identity thing, especially as an athlete. You know, you could just jump up there and compete and beat everybody out. But are you able to use any of that energy elsewhere? So every expo I go to, I feel like I'm like Uncle Phil to all these younger guys. You know?

And I've been that way throughout my career. Like anytime I go to expo, you know, people line up. I'm never the type, anyone that is queued up to meet me, they know that I'll spend time with them. I'll answer all the questions. I don't care what it is. So to do mentorship, I mean, I've taken that on. I've worked with different collegiate athletes because they're now dealing with a lot of

performance anxiety because of the NIL deals that they receive, that they earn. So now they have a lot more pressure than ever before and they need to talk to an athlete who's been there and have expectations and how they deal with media and all that. And then just as far as pro bodybuilders, my number has always been the same. I think they may feel, a lot of them don't hit me up and I don't know why. Part of me believes that maybe they just think they're wasting my time or maybe I'm going to tell them too much of the truth or they think, you know, maybe I'm just too busy. But anyone, any pro that has ever came up to me and said, hey, champ, like, what do I need to do, bro?

Like with the sponsor, with travel, with peeking for a show, like what do you think? Even their coaches, like, I'm like throwing out free game now, I'm not your adversary. You know, so I'm using that nickname, the gift, as like, here, just take it. Like, I've earned all this stuff, I need to share it with someone.

But I've helped a couple guys that have gotten ready for shows whose coaches just couldn't get them right. And not to undermine their coaches, because I would tell their coach, like, hey, I'm gonna step in and I'm gonna show you how to kind of tweak here and there. And they were like, yeah, I'm going to step in and I'm going to show you how to kind of tweak here and there. And they're like, yeah, sure, no problem. But, you know, I look forward to the conversations. And I think it's a great opportunity for me to connect with the current pros in all divisions

to be quite fair. Let's back up a little bit because you were, competition is something that you've been involved in for a very long time. Before you were a bodybuilder, you were highly competitive in basketball. And I've heard this from people who did really well in sports that it's very difficult to move away from because they gained so much from the competition, from a target, from aiming after something. What got you into basketball? Was that your way out of anything or towards anything?

What was your attachment to that? Oh, well, I think it was growing up in the 80s and you're seeing guys like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, I mean, who didn't want to fly, right? They're the best. I mean, it was just the greatest times. The 80s were the best, dude.

And I loved football as well, but my mom was against it because she was like, this impact, I can't be OK. I'm an only child, so she's like, I can't have my baby getting hurt. You've been a rad football player. Yeah, I'm like, well, I'm like, I have big calves. And you know, like, I should have done that. But with hoops, it was something that it doesn't,

it requires a team, but really you could play by yourself. You just need a basket and a ball, right? And if you don't have a basket, you can practice throwing the ball up against the wall, dribbling. You know, you could work on your defense. Like you could do so much cool stuff. So, you know, I found myself being highly competitive at that, at an early age.

And then, you know, I think it was when, you know, when you're a kid and they measure you like height and they tell you like, this is, you're going to be six, two, or you're going to be five 11. They told me I was going to be the projection or whatever. Yeah. They told me I'd be like five like... Give me the projection or whatever. Yeah. They told me I'd be like 5'10", and I cried my eyes out. I was like, no, no basketball player can make the NBA at 5'10".

Yeah. They're like, yeah, Spudweb, Muggsy Bogues, you know? Muggsy Bogues, yeah. But that's like so rare at night. I think I had... We know them because they're the only ones. Yeah, exactly. I know, I was like two guys.

Okay, guys, so at least looking back, I'm like, man, you're pretty smart, young Phil. You knew the percentages. It was not in your favor, man, you're pretty smart young Phil. Like you knew like the percentages, like it was not in your favor, but I looked at that as a challenge. And I just wore it like a chip on my shoulder. Like I might be height challenged, but heart challenged, no.

You know, I'm gonna show more heart. I'm gonna run faster than you. I'm gonna, you know, oh, I can dive on the floor with a loose ball. Like I'm gonna do that better than you. I'm gonna hustle harder than you. I'm gonna be smarter than you oh, I can dive on the floor, loose ball. Like I'm gonna do that better than you. I'm gonna hustle harder than you. I'm gonna be smarter than you with how to run the offense. I'm going to make sure I don't turn the ball around.

I'm gonna make sure I hit the open man. I'm gonna make sure that I knock down those free throws. I'm gonna make sure I can finish with my left hand, like all those little things. And I had great coaches too, you know, that just really were perfectionists. And I didn't look at it as like a bad thing, like, you know, that was back in the day

where coaches could really get in your face and yell. And I responded well to it, to be honest. So for me, basketball, to see a ball go through the net was great, but to later on be able to dunk, that is the most, I think that's the coolest thing any athlete can do. Other than maybe UFC knocking a guy out like with some cool street fighter move or something. You know what I mean?

Other than being able to do that, but that's like inflicting real bodily harm on another human being. Can you still dunk by the way? Hell no. I was gonna say I want to see that. I wish dude. I'd be real viral if I was doing that.

Oh my gosh, I think the last time I tried, I was in Denver. We were at the gym. It was like, the gym was open on Thanksgiving. I think it was like, it was odd year. It was like either 07 or 09. So you're bodybuilding. I'm already bodybuilding.

How much you weigh at that point? I was like 270. 270? And one of my buddies was like, I bet you can't still do it. And you know, you get one of your partners running their mouth, challenging you. And I must, I know I was 270, so it was around, it had to been, I think,

cause I didn't, I wasn't 270 in 07. It was usually that way, like an 09 off season. So I remember shooting at this gym, and it had the weights and stuff, but it had a cage inside this gym. So they see me and they're just dribbling and stuff, so they're like, no problem, you know, Phil's just shooting and stuff.

And then my friend comes in there, he's pretty big, he's like 300 pounds, you know. And I'm like, you really wanna play one on one or two big ass dudes? This is gonna look really awkward. So he's like D-ing me up, you know. I'm like, bro, I can't stand it when someone tries to D- me up because I look at it

like a sign of disrespect. Like real in your jock. Oh, you're trying so hard right now. So I had to get him off of me. So I literally threw it off the glass and tried to dunk it on him. And he was like, I can't believe you tried that. He's like, you think you can still do that?

I said, yeah. He said, I don't think you can. I said, put some money on it then. He said, I'll put a hundred bucks on it. I said, on a drop step or just like, he goes, you think you can dunk on a drop step? I said, well, that's how it's gonna be. So I did it on drop step first time,

bam, just banged it in. So you did? Yeah. I said, give me my damn money. Yeah, it's awesome. I wish you recorded that, that would have been hilarious. Oh man, I mean, you're talking about old slacks, right? Yeah, old slacks, yeah.

Everybody's gonna be like, he didn't do that, but no, seriously, like I had a great vert, like junior year in college, I was standstill vert, 40. Wow. And I was running like a 4-3-4 as a freshman a freshman. So I was more of a football player, right? Oh yeah, all those stats. You made it pretty high in basketball. Yeah, I went Division I and played all four years

at the University of Denver. Shout out to the Pioneers. Did you have a realization at some point, like I'm not gonna make it pro? Sophomore year. Sophomore? Sophomore year, pre-season, playing really good, hedging a screen where you have to,

like literally, screens coming and you're trying to lift your leg over him to hedge the screen. And he hits my leg, knee goes out, and I'm like, oh shit, career's done. Well career wasn't done that day, but laying there, like you can't feel your leg, you're like, oh, this is done.

So now you're going through your mind, like what would life be like without it? And now I have to take the next three, four weeks to rehab a quad and hamstring. And then you recognize that the teams, the show must go on. So although you had a great game, they still got a season to play.

And you've been replaced. So it's done. It's tough. It's already done. So now you're trying to climb and it just didn't work out. And then, you know, I guess what was hard for me was, it wasn't from a lack of effort. It was just the coach's decision.

And if I would have been in a situation such as today I probably would have transferred hit the poor role and went somewhere else because you want to play. At this point in time it was more like well you've already been here two years it's a great school University of Denver is one of the top schools in the country has a great business college and you're in college for business and in IT just focus on getting your education paid for. Because it was like 50 grand a year to go there. So I come from Render Beach High School

where there's not much opportunity in that place. So you would almost be a fool to disregard, you know, a solid education. So it was, you know, it was tough, but to be honest, I had a great friend, you know, that I'm still friends with today, that he was riding the pine with me. So we would share minutes and we'd just root for each other

and while still rooting for the team. We still had good moments, but I would be lying if I said that I had the greatest experience playing. I still remember having an exit interview and you're sitting with the athletic director and she's like, so. It was like three of us, because we were all graduated at the same time, three, four singers.

So yeah, three or four singers were there and we're like, asked like, so Phil, like what would you do if you could do this all over again? I said, I would not come here. And she's like, whoa, I'm like, well, I'm telling you the truth. And I gave her a list of things that I just did not like. And it wasn't me being entitled. It was just more like, hey, like the student body,

like we're a hockey school, which is great. DU has a great hockey school, a hockey team, but you don't pour marketing into basketball. So we're a winter sport. Kids that go to University of Denver, their parents have a ton of freaking money. So classes are usually over on Thursdays. Those kids are going up to the mountains.

They're not gonna hang out, you know, to go to a game, to go watch a basketball game when someone's got a cabin where they can go party at all weekend long during ski season. A lot of the parents, you know, they have that type of income. So we rarely had like packed house. So we played on the road better because we had more people

in the stands. So yeah, for me, it was just, you know, it was a great experience because you realize like, you can have entitlement, it ain't gonna get you anywhere. You know, you can show up every day, give it your all. It just may not be for you. And realizing that in sports, kind of like just like in job and in career,

you can work for a company and it's just not the right fit for you. You go to another business and you thrive. Well then another door open for you. When did you, how did you get into bodybuilding? And did you always know that you had genetics for it? Because I mean, there's pictures of you playing basketball. Yeah, you have some pretty jack arms.

And you got belts and arms, which you don't typically see on high school basketball players. No. I guess I never believed what you would see. So like people would say, man, you're like jacked. And I'm like, nah, I think I just downplayed it all. I think because some of the guys that I grew up around looked just as good and those guys didn't make it.

So I grew up with a lot of guys. Just in my neighborhood alone, you had a lot of pro athletes. We're talking about like in football, we had Nate Burleson, his older brother Kevin, who played ball. He's now assistant coach for the Pistons. Jason Terry.

I mean, obviously my old teammate, Jamal Crawford, just out of my high school, you had Jamal Crawford, Doug Christie, Nate Robinson, Terrence Williams, De'Jonte Murray. Studs, right, just out of my high school. So then there's other schools that, you know, you got Zach Levine,

you know, you got Isaiah Thomas that played for Boston. You got a lot of kids, you know. So I was always around like, and these are the guys that made it. You gotta think of the guys that didn't make it. So I never thought that I was exceptional. But I had some friends that just believed, man. They were just like,

hey, you should come watch me compete. So I was like, all right, cool. And I go to a bodybuilding show, I'm like. Now did you lift weights at all at this point? I was, I mean, I was just lifting with the team, you know, playing hoops. But back then, we were talking about like year 2000. Yeah.

Basketball, it was like crazy. Like a few exercises. Once a week you're doing chest, but it was like five sets of just bench. And you're doing pull-ups. You're doing more of the hand cleans, power cleans, you know, snatches, like stuff like that. We did more of like lunges, 45 degree lunges,

overhead squats, which, oh my God, that was... You couldn't go out partying the night before because if you do overhead squats, you're gonna tilt over. You'd be hung over. But yeah, like so no real body, no side laterals, no lat pull, nothing. So I was a pure novice going to watch a bodybuilding show, ended up watching a couple of them, supporting some friends. And then there was a pure novice going to watch a bodybuilding show, ended up watching a couple of them,

supporting some friends. And then there was a bodybuilder by the name of Claude Groul who just won the Masters Olympia. And my friend was like, take a picture next to the pro. He's a guest poser. I was like, what is that? He's like, oh, well, he's gonna get on stage, hit some shots and you can kind of see

what a pro looks like. I was like, okay. So I asked him, I was like, Mr. Claude, can I take a photo with you? He was like, yeah, sure. So I took a photo and I'm wearing, I'll never forget, I was wearing a Jordan sleeveless and Jordan, I was like Jordan out, Jordan Shores shoes.

And my friend Josh was taking a photo, he goes, hit a bicep. So I was like, okay. And then he didn't want to hit it. He didn't want to hit it at all. So Josh was like, hit a bicep. And then we both do it. These kids are walking by and go,

holy shit, his arms are as big as Claude's. And Claude Gros is like, you compete, right? And Josh goes, no, he's a basketball player. And he was like, you compete right? And Josh goes, no he's a basketball player. And he was like, no you should compete. And I was like, oh no, I've been hearing this, I've been hearing people around town telling me I should do this and even while I was playing college ball like people were like, man you should do this bodybuilding

stuff like in your off season. I was like, no I don't wanna do all that man, I don't wanna wear those little tight ass, I don't wanna do that, I wear baggy clothes. So that was around the time where I was like, I don't want to do all that, man. I don't want to wear those little tight ass, I don't want to do that. I'll wear baggy clothes. So that was around the time where I was like, okay, if I'm getting hit up by a pro, and I didn't realize that pros made money with it, not that it mattered, but in a way it does,

you want to know if a pro can- You have a career. Yeah, wait a minute, this guy gets paid to fly around the world to go up on stage, not in complete condition, but to show, what? It doesn't compute for me. So when I realized that, I was like,

all right, let me try that. And on April 4th of 2003, I did my first bodybuilding show in Boulder, Colorado, the NPC Northern Colorado. Jay Cutler was the guest poser. There's a photo of he and I, and I go up to him and I was like, so, can I take a picture? And he was like, yeah, yeah.

I said, how much do you weigh? And he goes, I weigh 290. I said, I said, oh, motherfucker, I weigh 190. You know, now I weigh, you know? But it was neat because we got that photo and of course, you know, we made a friendship thereafter, but what I loved about it was neat because we got that photo and of course we made a friendship thereafter but what I loved about it was the fact that my friends tricked me into doing the show.

I thought the show was a natural show and I didn't know the difference but I just thought. So you're super naive about bodybuilding. So I'm naive about everything. I knew nothing about bodybuilding. And you won right out of the gates. Yeah, so I go check in, you know, you get your NPC card and this and that.

I go, so where I go to the bathroom? Where I go pee? Oh, right down the hall to the right. I go around, I was like, there's no one in there. She, lady goes, excuse me? I go, you know, like to do the test. She goes, oh no, no, no, no, that's the Armed Forces show in a month.

And I'm looking at Josh and my friends and they're all laughing. And I was like, you guys got me at a show that no wonder this guy's all vascular. I'm wondering like, how the hell? They're like, don't worry about it, man. I was like, what you mean, don't worry about it? They're like, just relax, bro.

I was like, I can't relax. But you did all right. I did all right. I did the show, I won the show, won relax, bro. I was like, I can't relax. But you did all right. I did all right. I did the show, I won the show. Won the whole thing. Won the Novice and the Open Overall. And right then and there I was hooked. I was hooked.

I was like, wait a minute. I went from state champion basketball player, scholarship to the University of Denver, didn't have the career I wanted, but now I have a whole new career path of a hobby, but something that's fun, that's competitive, that I don't know what I'm really doing, but I'm having success right away,

so that means there's a lot of potential for growth here. When you first started training in bodybuilding, you must have just responded very quickly. My body responded so fast that in college I was getting tested as a basketball player. That's from basketball workouts? Yeah. Wow. So when you started pure bodybuilding,

what was that like? So I was weighing like 175, and then I got up to 200 just like that, like within like three, four months. Dismuscle. Yeah, and it really was just, I had a friend who was working at EAS. Now people didn't know, but EAS was in Colorado.

Yeah, that's right. So they had like an employee sale like once a month and he would be like, Hey, you know, cause we're all broke. And I did a fifth year of college. So that's when I started bodybuilding. So I wasn't getting like, I was getting like 80% of my scholarship, but I was living off campus. So I was able to do that, work a couple of jobs, make a little bit of money. And so I would, I would work at a ballet. Actually I wasn't working at ballets at the time.

I was working at a nightclub, bouncing, just watching gates and checking the door. And I would take that money. And then once a month, we'd clean up, we'd drive to this restaurant called Village Inn. It's like an IHOP. And then we'd drive up to Golden, Colorado. I'd wait in my car and then I'd go outside

To be one of the first people in line for when the doors open up at 7 in the morning so I literally there's times where they'd be snowing outside and I just be like I Gotta get out of the car now because I got to be one of the first ten because people would just buy up everything like All that myoplex and stuff. They were buying it all up and selling it on eBay. So I was like, I just need to get what I need. So I was getting like those sachets, like the protein for like 25 cents. You know how much it costs, you know,

there's like three, four bucks, even back then. So I was able to use like all my scholarship money just to start taking these supplements. And then with that, I remember buying like, what was it, like the supplement review guide and all that stuff. So I was reading all that because I didn't know anything about supplements.

So I was like, all right, I gotta be self-taught. But the best way to do it is like to read the book, but then apply it, actually buy the product. Because you get a lot of book smart people that don't buy the product. You know, get a lot of book smart people that don't use the product. So, and then I bought a camera that I would take progress pictures, because that was around the time

like the Body for Life challenges were going on. So I was taking like those weekly progress photos just so then I could understand where my strength and weaknesses were. And then I would reference Flex Magazine, Muscle and Fitness and the Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding to figure out what physique do I really resemble? You know, like what's the-

Did you have anybody that you emulated? Yeah, like Sean Ray, Flex ReLuke, Chris Cremier, and this is what people were telling me already. So then when I would look for the magazines, I would look for those guys. And I was like, actually, I could kind of see what they're talking about a little bit, more so of the separation of the muscle,

the health of the muscle, the roundness. I wasn't structurally wide. Your delts and arms always reminded me of Dennis Newman. I don't know if you remember him. Yeah, he had those really, Leveroni had delts like that too, which you don't see, I mean, most pros have incredible delts,

but there's always those outliers and just kind of reminded me of those. Did you just kind of take body parts from certain bodybuilders to aspire to? Yeah, your chest workout, your ab workout. We all do that. This leg workout, we do that and you- Yeah, and then-

Piece it together? You piece it together, exactly, and through those photos, you know, I didn't know what poses to do. I was just doing my best at the time, and then I was just critiquing them. I was being my own judge, and really it was, that part of it was probably the most fun, because I wasn't worried about what a judge had to say,

or what a friend had to say. I was just in the gym, doing my thing, and it was what I thought looked good on paper. You know, if I printed out the photos, which I did, and I would take a pencil pen and I would shade, this is where I want to focus the more detail on the calf, or I want to have separation in the front delt, so when I squeeze my pecs you can see, you know,

like this is, and then I would look up the exercises that would do that, and then I would take the smallest weight and say, okay, I feel it now, okay. All I have to do is replicate that sweet spot and I'll be good. Because people overcomplicate all this training and stuff. Really is just, in my opinion, just trying to find that sweet spot

like you would in golf or baseball. There's a sweet spot. There's a perfect jumper. Even if your form's a little off. But you know when it's leaving your fingers, like this is the one. So for me it was just like, where can I find a sweet spot with the technique? And if I can find that, I'm gonna see a result.

And for me, with the genetics that I have, I was able to see it right away. Right away. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that, we've talked about that on the show, on the type of genetics that you'll see, well, in all high level sports, but in pro bodybuilding, I mean,

you competed, got your pro card naturally, with very little experience and understanding, because you trained hard and because your body just responded. Whereas a lot of people will place the credit on drugs and steroids and not realize, Ronnie competed as a natural for a long time before he did anything. When did you make the switch over to,

or like, okay, well now I need to use. Get enhanced? Yeah. It was actually before I turned pro. So I competed like three times, and then I was like, mm, So I competed like three times and then I was like, I think if I were to do a little bit of something,

I think I'd get some good results from it. Because I'm already seeing like ahead, like I'm already beating guys that are clearly using and I have no problem with it. If anything, I look like it was a badge of honor for me to say, you know what? I can compete, I'm still good enough, and in my opinion, I probably would have been able to still turn pro naturally. I might have been able to, in my opinion,

maybe won a pro show naturally, but it would have taken me so much longer. Right, right. It would have taken me probably 10 years. And that's a big if, right? So it was, yeah, my second year of competitive bodybuilding. I was like, let me just dabble a little bit. And I remember just thinking, man,

if you're gonna do this, man, you really gotta be smart. You can't just, you gotta learn from other people that have an addicted personality with these PEDs. So I was just like, am I gonna get weird? Am I gonna like, you hear all these things, these myths and he's gonna be like this roid raging guy, all this stuff. And then I recognize also,

can't be a rock star and bodybuilder. So that means me going out, eating poorly, drinking beer, partying with my friends, not doing that no more. So if I choose this, I can't do this. So I had to really make peace with that because I ain't gonna lie, I loved this, looking like a football player, jacked, and partying with my friends.

But then I realized there's a greater opportunity. And I was not afraid of discipline and self-respect to my physique. And then the only regret I had is that I would've done blood work before I decided to do that. So you knew where you were. Yeah, it would've been nice just to have, just on paper, just like like I could show you guys,

like man, check this out when I was 24. Like, you know, this is what it looked like. So then now I could talk to kids who were at freaking 17, 18, that think that they're not good enough and they gotta go do this. But yeah, it was around that time. And I made sure that it was

kinda like what Arnold said about it. Like it's just a polish. Like it's not like how you built the car. And did your body respond quick? You know, it's funny that again, that's another one. Like when people have that 0.1% of genetics, when it comes to muscle building, they tend to also have that 0.1% of genetics that respond to anabolic. Yeah. Cause I mean, I've ran gyms for two decades

and I knew guys taking so much care. But you couldn't tell. You couldn't even tell, they just looked unhealthy. You're like, bro, all I see is side effects here. Yes. Why do you do this? It's kinda, do you feel like it's kinda hard to communicate that with people? Like, you don't want to discourage,

like I don't want to discourage someone to live out their dream. But at some point I feel like you almost need to tap on the shoulder and be like, bro, like, can you, this is your health. I come with no shame and guilt. Like, but I'm kind of concerned or I'm curious. What is the end goal?

I don't think they realize just how big of a role, well consistency, that's a big one, but genetics play. Like you said, you ate 5,000 calories in the off season. I know guys 85,000 calories that weigh 175 pounds, they can't gain any muscle mass. So there's just the, that level, if you're not the most jacked person

all the time without trying, you're probably not gonna be a pro bodybuilder on gear, you know, just by taking gear. I'm so with you on that. I mean, you think about it, it's like no matter how hard I try to be the best basketball player. You got guys like seven four, you know?

Like, what am I gonna do with that? And I think the lower, it's a low barrier of entry when it comes to bodybuilding. Because there's shows everywhere. Shows everywhere, and you know, PEDs is highly accessible more now than ever, and it's kind of like socially accepted. So you run into people, in my opinion, more,

they're more afraid to compete naturally than running a bunch of gear. They're not afraid at all to run all these different compounds and stuff. And one of the things I do now is, I'm not like some huge advocate, but like at these expos, I run into, you know, we're talking about teenagers, this and that and that, so I ask them questions like,

you know, what's your goal, this and that, and they say, yeah, you know, I'm trying to get jacked like you, man, but you know, it's gonna take, one kid just flat out said, he was at the L.A. FedExpo, he was like, you know, it's gonna take a lot of hard work, a lot more gear, and this and that. I was like, hold on, a lot more what?

He was like, you know, like, gotta take, you know, this, and like, what you guys do, and this and that. I said, I don't think so, man. I said, let me show you a picture. This is me playing college ball. You not better than that. So you're gonna have to go against someone like that one day. Can you beat that right now? He someone like that one day. Can you beat

that right now? He's like 24. I said that kid's 20. Drinking beer, pizza, barely working out, just playing hoop. I remember as a kid seeing a picture of 16 year old Arnold and being like, oh, this ain't gonna happen. Or Jake Cutler is like a picture of Cutler when he's 18 and he looks like... It's tough man. It's a hard pill to swallow But I think is one a conversation that has to be had more often Yeah, it doesn't mean that you're not worthy of success everybody to improve their health and fitness and the way they look There's other things too. Like I feel like there's a sport for everybody. It's like there you go You got to just find what fits best and like I don't know we watch this is the

I just find what fits best and like, I don't know, we watched this is the democratization of sport. It really kind of got into the genetic component of that and like really trying to find, you know, the best fit for that body type or like where they could, you know, put most of their energy into it and be successful. And I think that, you know, you kind of stumbled on bodybuilding and that was the thing. That was a thing for you. I got very, that's why I told people I got extremely lucky. I got lucky, Ronnie Coleman got lucky.

You know, we weren't, I didn't grow up saying like, oh man, that's what I wanna do when I grow up. I wanna be a professional bodybuilder. I did not have that. What I admired was muscles. What I admired was people working out, strength. You know, I grew up in that era. Arnold, Sly, Bo Jackson, my favorite.

Man, everybody was tough. And that meant you worked hard. That meant you worked out. And yeah, who wouldn't wanna look jacked and ripped up and still be functional and all that. But I think it's, you know, for me, it was always about, you know, my own personal pursuit of happiness in the gym.

It wasn't always happy, you know. You use like some negativity to... Motivate yourself. Yeah, and then I realized that was more of a band-aid than anything because when you... You mean like working out angry? Yeah, because you know, like, oh, you had a bad day, let me go to the gym and go figure it out.

It's like, did you really figure it out though? You just went aggro for like 90 minutes and now you're still, like once that pump goes away, you still got those problems. You probably didn't sort them out in a car ride home. You're just putting a band-aid on this issue and you're actually suppressing your problems. So then, you know, people have this mental health,

hello, you win all these titles and shit and then you're done, hmm, I gotta still deal with all this stuff now. So I think a lot of bodybuilders, they have to realize like, you are probably running away from something then running to something. Yeah, and it could be extremely challenging

or more challenging when you're getting accolades for running away. In other words, you're succeeding because of the determination and consistency and just insanity. Yeah, I think that happens even in business, right? It happens anywhere. It happens everywhere, right?

Like high performing, you know, like you guys run this amazing show, you guys have to turn more, you know, turn more, find new people to bring on, new topics, new this, read the comments, figure out what they like, you know, like you just want to be a man of service, you know, God give you a gift, so you want to use it as much as possible.

But then you're like, man, like am I really making myself happy with this? How do I recharge? Like, man, I still got to deal with my own life. I'm asking every, like you're asking me all these questions and stuff. You know, like, what about, what about you? What about you? You know what I mean? Like, what about me? You know, and you know, sometimes you, you, I feel like as you get older, I mean, I'm at this point in time in my life, I'm like, I need to have a lot more reflection

time. I need to have more time of stillness. I need to know, am I doing something that really brings pleasure to my soul? The last thing I wanna do is like, I'm on the back nine of this golf course, and as I get closer to the end, I wanna be meeting God and be like, man, I really left a lot of meat on that bone. I really could have found out who I really was.

I really could have been more intentionally focused really was. I really could have been more intentionally focused on the people who I interact with or the questions I should have asked. I mean, basically living with regret. Do you think you made competing in general and then maybe bodybuilding an idol for a little while? Oh, 100%. I mean, I think it's just something where... You brought up, because you've brought up God quite a bit. Absolutely. No, I mean, I'm a believer and I realized that,

look, there is no coincidences. You know, I got the genetics, how, you know? Like, and then the way that I even got to bodybuilding was very strange because I was interviewed by the Seattle Times. I was 17. I had just signed with the University of Denver. And of course they're excited.

They're like, oh yeah, you know, you're going to college and this and that. Tell us, do you have any aspirations of going pro? Which every kid does. So I look into the camera and I say, yes, but if that doesn't work out, I'm gonna be pro at something. What?

Like I'm not some great public speaker at 17 years old. You know what I'm saying? Like that was just divine. Because that ended up happening. Yeah, it's profound. So I look back at even those little things. I look at, to be quite honest, I look at no coincidence, because I know guys in my life,

he's walking in front of me, around me, and for me, that as I look back, I say, okay, you won seven Mr. Olympias, so here we go. You won seven Mr. Olympias. The day that you got your first title, it was in 2011, right? I wore the number 22. That was random. Those are random numbers that are given

to every Olympia competitor except the champ who goes last. So they gave me 22. That was the same number I wore in high school and college. Okay? I was also the 13th Mr. Olympia. Okay? Hear me out. I'm like, okay, I get also the 13th Mr. Olympia, okay? Hear me out. I'm like, okay, I get the number 22.

Yeah, it's like September of 2011, I'm all excited. I'm like, I know I'm about to win now. Because I got the physique, I got the mentality, I got the number. It's all lining up. It's all lining up, thanks God. Like, it's all, sorry, like, it's all lining up. These dominoes, they're lining up.

I gotta do, bam, you know? I get seven of these things. My career's done. My first Mr. Olympia was 2008, I got third. My last one in 2020, I got third, so closed circle, right? Now I'm looking over my life. I'm going through some old photos. I see an old picture of my younger self.

My stepdad had, he was a jack of all trades, man. He was a TV engineer for an NBC affiliate called King Five Television in Seattle, Washington. But in the spare time, he built things. So he built me a car bed, you know, and that car bed had a stencil kit. I look at the photo, it's the number 13 on the damn car. I was seven years old when I got it. How does that?

So I ask him, hey Pop, what made you choose the number 13? It's kind of like an unlucky number. He goes, you know, I didn't really think about it like that. It was just a stencil kit and it came with this. I just picked the number. Yeah. Like, how does this not, like, you know what I'm saying? So like, I started paying attention more,

more in my later years, I'd say, and realized like, wait a minute, I need to start paying attention to what he's trying to tell me. And I've even went as far as done plant medicine, man. I've done toad, I've done all that. I'm getting ready to do cactus next month. Oh yeah, I'm about to sit with him, man.

Because I've seen some things and I realized like, there's a lot of self development that I need to continue to pursue. I need to understand that this world, you know, when you go on these different journeys and you see some things, you hear some things, you're like, all right, well, I need to be more at peace with myself. I need to not be so rigid. I need to be more fluid. I need to be more intentionally focused on prayer and meditation. I need to have this calmness about me because this isn't...we're living in a world where there's

spiritual warfare going on, a lot of craziness and being in bodybuilding. You're doing things to your body that it can get quite dark. So I'm very much, like I said, gratitude. I'm so thankful that I've made it on the other side and I still can look the part and then help other people. And I just, right now, like, you know, I'm just, again,

I'm just very thankful that I have like God's grace. Yeah, you made it out relatively unscathed. I mean you had a hernia surgery and intestinal strangulation. Talk about that for, cause that's scary. A lot of people don't know. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. I didn't know how bad that was. So I'm getting ready for 2017 Olympia. Sheree, my wife, she's like, Phil, you're crying in your sleep like every night. Something's wrong. I know something's wrong, but I didn't know how bad, right? So I remember one day, I'm trying to do planks, and I felt like my intestines were about to literally tear out of my abdomen.

It was just, I'm like, I can't hold anything. So I was like, holy crap, something's really wrong. But you ignore things, as a bodybuilder, you learn to ignore pain, to ignore high pain pressure. High pain pressure, man a bodybuilder, you learn to ignore pain, ignore. High pain push through. You keep going, you just keep going. Yeah. You know, like, yeah.

And I had Arnold on my mind. I said, if I win this show, when I win this show, if I never win another Olympia again, I'm tied with him. Everybody will know who Arnold is. And if I say I'm tied with him, people that don't know about bodybuilding will say, I know what that is. So I'm good.

I'm on the Mount Rushmore bodybuilding. No questions, like no question. So it's worth the risk. So right after the show, I have emergency surgery. I fly to, not Orlando, I go to Cleveland. We fly there. Thank God this doc had like this certain method that can get you up walking that same day.

So he opens me up, he's like, oh yeah, tells my wife, don't worry, he'll be out in 30 minutes. Two and a half hours later, now she's pacing, wondering if there's been complications, this and that, and they're like, yeah, he has intestinal strangulation. We open him up and it was like his intestines came out like in a freaking accordion. So now we have to push everything back in,

and it was a lot. So I was bleeding from my, you know, intestines and I believe through my colon, I mean, so that blood flow wasn't properly. So basically I gave, I looked back at my blood work and for 2017, I looked really good. I was hard, I was sharp. Of course I had distinctions during transitions.

But man, even running anabolic, like pills and stuff, my blood work wasn't going up. AST, ALT levels, low. How do you run anabolic, it's like low. My liver's indestructible. Basically I'm like really the gift, it's like under 40. I'm in like high 20s. So we're like wait a minute.

What's happening? What's going on? I wasn't absorbing anything because of the intensive translation. You were able to compete. And I was able to compete. So, right? So then they patched me up.

And then going into 2018 Olympia, I retor it three weeks out. Devastating man. Because I know if that wouldn't haveia, I retored three weeks out. Devastating, man. Because I know if that wouldn't have happened, I would have won. I mean, I'm talking about easily won. Like not even a question. And you know, it sucked, man.

But you know, I look like this, man. But I mean, you've got such, I mean, you move well still. Everything's good. I mean, you see a lot of pros come out, Olympias, I mean, and there's, you know, life-altering injuries and challenges. You look at Ronnie, you know, you look at some other people. You know, that's where you see the silver lining.

You realize, like, God bless Ronnie Coleman because this guy travels just as much as not more than any of us on tour. Has the same lines as if he was competing today. And he has no complaints. So if he has that type of demeanor, who am I to bitch and moan because I didn't win another Sandow or,

you know what I mean? Oh, I can't move the same way as I once did. I can still improve that. I just have to be more intentionally focused on it. But yeah, gratitude is like number one, you know. Let's back up for a second in your career. I'd like to hear about your relationship with Jake Cutler because I know he, I remember reading an article,

early in your career you were critiqued for your back development. Later in your career you were regarded as having one of the best backs ever in bodybuilding. And I read that Cutler had talked to you about some training or had some influence on how you train and that played a role.

Is that true or? He gave me a hard time, you know, like just as a friend, you know, he's like, man, you gotta get bigger, but he just knew in time. Okay. You know, Jay was always supportive and he was even more supportive as I was getting closer to winning the Olympia. I always say winning the Olympia instead of beating Jay Cutler, because that's what I did. I became the 13th Mr. Olympia and he just happened to get second

that day. I was able to compete against my best friend. Did he give me advice? All the time. But majority of it was just the advice of like how to train on the road, be more meticulous as to how you eat, you know, like being a real professional. Watching Jay travel and train and eat and he was a machine. He had a system. The minute he woke up in Vegas, like you knew like clockwork. And I was like, okay, this is the, this is the guy that I got to go against.

I gotta be just as focused if not more. So I picked up on that, you know, cause things are caught and taught, right? So like, you gotta like really like, okay, what's he doing? I, I gotta do that. So it wouldn't have to come from his mouth all the time. It'd just be like, what? He's watching him. And his training style, he trained midday, late night. I never really asked him why he did that.

I just did it. And I think for me, it proved to be a benefit because when I trained that night, there was no one in the gym. And I think that's probably why he liked it too. Because him living in Vegas in those years, I mean dude, like they were, Jay had some of the biggest fan bases I've ever seen.

I mean, we talk about fan bases now with social media numbers and stuff. I'm telling you right now, if Jay Color with social media numbers and stuff. I'm telling you right now. This is pre-social media. If J.Color has social media, with the current guys that are out right now, y'all wouldn't be following these people. You would be seeing J.Color at 300 pounds

squatting four or five plates on Smith, screaming and hollering, getting after it, sweating his ass off at Lake Mead, Golds, Durango, Decatur, all these places, killing it, going to Gold's Venice. Oh man, like some of those workouts I would watch him and I could not keep up for a very long time. It was up until, I want to say like 2009, 2010 is when I could really keep up

because his volume was so high. He just lower resting periods. A lot of guys, they say they train hard and people give me crap online, like, oh, I don't see Phil really training that hard or that heavy. I'm like, you're not counting the resting periods. I only rest like 45 to 60 seconds, normally.

You know, now I can do whatever I want, but like, when I was getting ready for shows and stuff, like, two minute max, like. Your style also, you know, Cutler's kind of like this, not a lot of injuries. You tend to stick around. Whereas you had the Dorian and the Ronnie where they just went, although Ronnie was just everything.

A lot of injuries as a result of some of the ways that they trained. Yeah, I think it was, you know, you live by the story, die by it, right? I mean, it's just one of those things, you know. You see in other sports, guys that go at one speed and that's all out, like they get hurt. You know, you look at story, you die by it, right? I mean, it's just one of those things, you know? You see in other sports, guys that go at one speed and that's all out, like they get hurt. You know, you look at it like a Derrick Rose,

like that guy was a phenomenal athlete, you know? But he got hurt early on because he didn't know how to maybe play at different speeds. I think a lot of people have to realize like, okay, wow, I'm just naturally strong. Okay, that's great, but does that mean that you have to squat 800 pounds? Probably not. If it requires you to squat, that's great. But does that mean that you have to squat 800 pounds? Probably not.

If it requires you to squat, let's say 600 pounds just to grow some quads, I don't know, man. Like that's crazy to me. Like I was able to grow quads in squat 315, 20 reps, five sets, two minutes break at altitude, which is freaking hard. Right?

You know, like try that, go to arm breasts, go knock yourself out, and then go do lunges outside and do all this other crap. But I do believe that the style of training prevented a lot of injuries for sure. Yeah, talk about your rivalry with Kai. Cause he was like, every Olympia, every Mr. Olympia has that guy that chases him,

that's like, you know, pushing him. And yours was Clyde Green. What was that rivalry like? Those were great times. Are you guys friends now? We're cool. Okay. He hit me up the other day. He probably mad that I'm gonna tell everybody

that he hit me up. He was like, off the record, you know, cause he saw what I recently did at the White House and getting a shout out by the Trump, you know? So he was like, that's really cool. He's like, congrats. I was like, yeah. We both flip each other off all the time.

So it's always gonna be like that though. We don't even fight it. It's just one of those things. It's a friend of me. Yeah, because the way I describe Kai is that he was one of the hardest workers, one of the best posers, one of the best bodybuilders we've ever seen, especially off season.

Anyone got a chance to watch him guess pose off season? She were in, I mean, it was amazing. To be able to compete against someone that was that dense from quads, hamstrings, glutes back, I've never seen that. Like still I have not seen that even today. Cause those hamstrings, those quads, like it's insane dude. And the way he trained, you're not gonna out train this dude. And he was so meticulous, so methodical

as to how he went about the form, the technique, the time and attention. He knows all these terms and he applies them. He does not cheat on diet. This guy probably just got too big in my opinion and to be fair I was just the one guy in his way. If it wasn't for me this guy would have probably won 10 of them. Yeah. You know because there was no one else that could have rivaled his hardness. He probably could have in my opinion. Now he trained for a long time natural before he went.

Yeah. So he had a lot of years as a natural bodybuilder before going, which gave him an advantage, I would say. I remember that transition, too. I remember him competing, pretty much natural, and then all of a sudden he comes to Colorado, guest poses, and I was like, who's this? And he comes out in one of these crazy outfits, right, and he takes it off, I was like,

I don't know how, I don't know if I got answers for this. Real talk, like off I was like I don't know how I don't know if I got answers for this real talk like I was like I don't know if I'm gonna have answers for this when he dies down this is gonna be tough and I knew right then and there is like he and I are gonna be battling for a long time and we did and I think we elevated each other I think we elevated each other. I think we elevated the sport. Was it toxic? Maybe. But I think all sports have to have a butting of heads

at some point. And I believe it's from everybody understanding that we both were highly competitive. You get two highly competitive people in a room. Like if you walked in here right now, you guys are gonna feel weird, it's going to, you guys are going to feel weird. There's going to be a level of awkwardness because you just, you feel the energy.

You're like, wow, these guys have some energy, man. Like what's going on? Is there going to be some furniture moving or they're going to be cool? And I love that about our rivalry is that there's always going to be that level of competition, that competitiveness. Now he's calling me out cause he wants me to come back and do the master's that there's always going to be that level of competition, that competitiveness. Now he's calling me out because he wants me to come back and do the Masters Olympian.

I told him I'd coach him, you know? That'd be pretty dope. That would be sick. I'd be like, dude, I'll coach you, man. I'll like walk you out, you know? Would you ever consider? Consider what? Doing like a Masters or?

No. Yeah, that's dumb. No, it's... Well, every show I go to. So obviously I go to the Arnold, I go to the Olympian. I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't think about competing every time I see it, especially when I'm doing the commentary, cause I see what's up there and I ask myself,

is this something that I have not seen before? Is this something do I believe that if I was healthy, could I do well against? Not going to disrespect these guys and be an old head and say that I could just beat these guys. But I think I'd be extremely competitive where I would probably, if I put my name on a dotted line and they knew that I was actually having a good off season, it would probably make them elevate their game a little bit more because they know that if they're not ready, the level of competition I bring is a different level and it could really whip

their ass and make them look bad. But see, now you see the tone of my voice. I'm like, I got a suppressor. It's always going to be there guys. Yeah. Right. When you ask me, I'm like, here I go. This is what I would do immediately. And this was every, so how I'm talking, how I was talking, that's every day. The back and forth. Like I would be in my head like that every day,

I'm like, I'm going to lift these weights, make them my bitch. They have no choice, but they'll be what I want. I'm gonna eat this food, I'm gonna step. I'm gonna do, this is how my mind works. I'm like 1200 steps minimum on a step mill, squeezing the glutes, doing kickbacks. I'm gonna get this done within 35 minutes.

I'm actually gonna use, you know, STEM machines while I do it. I was doing that stuff, all this new fit stuff that you guys see, I was doing that shit 10 years ago. Where you really? I believe it. I was doing it way before all this new fit stuff that you guys see, I was doing that shit 10 years ago. Where you really? I believe it. I was doing it way before. Oh wow.

Like all these modalities that I hear you guys even talk about, I've been doing that stuff from the very beginning. I was doing infrared saunas back in 2005. Oh wow. I was doing acupuncture. I do remember watching that. I was doing that back in 06. Cause I took what I learned from college,

you know, training tables and stuff. Yeah. I immediately applied that to bodybuilding the minute I started getting paid. I learned from college, you know, training tables and stuff. I immediately apply that to bodybuilding. The minutes are getting paid. Do you think it made a big difference? Absolutely, because I realized that if you're a professional athlete, what do professional athletes do?

They do their, they're very skilled, but they lean on recovery more. Much more. But majority of bodybuilders, all you see on TikToks and this and that, they talk about PEDs and training. That's it. They don't talk about recovery. Just go, go, go, go, let me just beat the hell out of this machine. They don't know how to recover properly. And just because you have all these modalities, these cryos, these this, that, there's a system that you have

to create that's going to deliver yourself so that, yeah, you can do cold plunging all you want, but it's going to not give you the gains, right? So you got a certain timing, just like with your nutrients, you gotta do it. So yes, it helped, because I was doing the decompression. So I was doing traction table, DRX 9000, I was doing that. I think that's what it's called, but yeah, I was doing that three days a week.

So it's very expensive, but I was like, if I can do this, so I'm doing chiropractic decompression. So I had a system. So I wake up in the morning, I was doing like, I did my cardio, hit the infrared sauna, drink a shake, hop into the Vatars 320, hyperbaric for 45 minutes. Then got my next meal in, carried on with my day,

then either had a massage or a chiropractic. And when I go to the chiropractor, I'm on that rolling table for a little bit. And then, you know, he's just doing an assessment. So it wouldn't be like full body, like, you know, adjustment and stuff. He's like, okay, you're gonna do shoulders today?

Okay, let's make sure that's good. Just getting some good active release. And then he studied in China, so he was doing real good acupuncture. So I was like, all right, so he's doing that plus STEM plus oxygen while on that traction table. So I was doing that three days a week. So the whole point is, as you guys know,

traction and stuff, your vertebrae is not compressed, so you're not compressing on those nerves. And I think as you guys know, traction and stuff, your vertebrae is not compressed, so you're not compressing on those nerves. And I think as you get bigger, your posture changes, this and that, that gets like this, that nerve, oh, why, I don't feel something in my arm, I can't feel my arm, I gotta tingle down my leg and this and that, they're not even getting

a proper assessment, like how many people get an x-ray, how many people do an ultrasound, MRIs How many people doing ultrasounds, MRIs? I was doing all that because I needed to understand what do I need to fix? So I was doing that neuromuscular massage two hours, sometimes three days a week, just to make sure that lymphatic drainage, I mean we're doing PIF, we're doing all this stuff.

I mean my house is- You don't hear about all this. Yeah I know, yeah. So I was doing all that stuff, man. That doing all this stuff. I mean my house. You don't hear about all this. Yeah I know. So I was doing all that stuff man. That's impressive. I wasn't telling everybody because I wanted to keep it from myself. Oh yeah. It's all insider information.

Now I can keep it all away but yeah, no I was doing all that man. Yeah you're ahead of the curve with that. I was sure. I made sure because I also knew that I was going against people that had been competing for longer. And I also leaned on the fact that a lot of these guys are just gonna, again, rely on just drugs to get better.

It's like, nah, man, like if, like one of my buddies, he doesn't compete, like he's just a hooper, and he was like, how could you explain it to me? I was like, all right, so I said, think about it like this. I said, you know, you wear like a t-shirt and you wash it and then it kind of comes out and it loses its shape. It's kind of stretched and stuff like that.

He's like, yeah, I said, why do you use fabric softener? To do what? To take those fibers and get them back locked in. I said, so sometimes like with peptides or this or that or the other, that's the whole point. You're trying to increase the fibers to keep the integrity of it back together. How do you do that with no vascular dilation?

If you're just pinning yourself all damn day, you're messing this up. Scar tissue, this and that, now you're just inflamed. I was like, man, leave that alone and just figure out, how about your mitochondria? People, people have mitochondria disease. Like, you even know what that is? No, you need to figure this out. You're telling your friend that?

He's like, what are you talking about? Yeah, but he figured it out. He was like, all right, well, okay, so that helps with ATP, this happens, that happens. He's like, yep, this happened with that, this, that. He's like, okay, so I can have better, I was like, all right, neuroplasticity, do other things. Like I can write legibly with my left hand.

Why? Because I just happened to start doing stuff with my left hand one time. I was like, I'm just gonna do it. Because I was super high on like neuroplasticity. That applies to bodybuilding. You know, this arm's bigger than this one. Okay, well then I need to figure something out.

But it's gotta be more on the recovery side, gotta have that curiosity. Do you think that's the biggest missing piece with most people when it comes to trying to build muscle is just really understanding recovery? I think so because now you see more people as they get older. What are the older guys talking about?

Biohacking. Like what can we do to get our years back? That's where I'm at. I'm like, I tell all my friends, I'm like what a time to be alive, man. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like we're so much available now. Dude, and I'm thinking, man, if I was 25,

like when I turned pro and I was, and I'm thinking, well, you kinda were already doing that. You just didn't have the funds, the resources to do it, but now it's like more readily available. Yeah, I think it just needs to be talked about more. I think that needs to be more sensationalized more than just like, you know, what we see. I think of more younger adults,

and I think the younger adults that play collegiate athletics, that want to turn pro in other sports, they get it. They understand because they see it. They have it as an option. Like you go to like schools, like any SEC football program, you see all that. You see the cold plungers, you see the saunas,

you see all that stuff. A little more privy to it now, yeah. We just talked about LeBron James and his sleep schedule. He sleeps like nine hours a night, takes two hours and a half. He takes naps, yeah. Yeah, and does all these recovery methods, which I'm glad people are talking about this

because when you train at that level, I mean it's like any high performance, finely tuned machine. Yes. You know, you have a Formula One car, there's a lot of attention being placed on maintaining it and keeping it. Yes sir.

Especially after every single race. I think so. I think LeBron's a great example of that. You know, I don't know what else he's doing. especially after every single race. I think so. I think LeBron's a great example of that. You know, I don't know what else he's doing. But what I will say is that on the sleep schedule, I mean, look, like, he is very intentionally focused on the recovery, that's why he's been able to, you know, compete that long.

And I would say when he does perform, you know, we're still seeing him put up 40, we're still seeing him dunk, you know compete that long and I would say when he does perform you know we're still seeing him put up 40 we're still seeing them dunk you know like it's very hard you know someone that size to be able to move the way he does he does a very very good and he's again there's a billion dollar athlete but he's making sure that he takes care of that body with that money and you know shout out to him because he's being very very smart. I had a question, did you guys ever hear about a company called Muscle Sound? No. So this company, it's not a pitch or anything because the company's dumb but like, you just work with this company, it has this technology where like, let's say you're a pitcher and you want to, you know, just go beyond the eye test

of like velocity and this and that to figure out how many pitches this guy should throw. But what if they measure the arm? They can check the muscular fuel rating on that arm. So with that, you can see like, you could pretty much figure out soft tissue injuries and stuff like that. So imagine using that for like a, yeah so imagine you're using it for like equestrian

and stuff like that. The horse can't tell you that they can't run today. Yeah. Yeah. So I was with this company for a little while, I think it was 2016 Olympia Run. So I would do cardio and they would measure me before and after. And what a great way to figure out like how much carbs you need, protein, rest.

Interesting. So you use that to to figure out, dictate the intensity like, wow, because maybe you're training too hard. Yeah. How would you tell someone, you know, who's HRV is really all they had. That's it. I know. Yeah. Yeah, so as time goes, there's gonna be companies that do this. You know, I've probably got like a million other people wanting to do this more now. But you could be more intensely focused on the fact that

it ain't just like beating your body up. It's about nutrient timing, all this other stuff, but what metric do you have? That's right. And if you're a trainer, you could figure out if your client is lying. Yeah, cuz you like hey man Like normally well, you know that I can see like the expenditure of energy I could see that you didn't deplete those legs during that spin class that you claimed you did

And you can't fake that. Mm-hmm because we and then also I was able to figure out Like this quad was bigger than this quad and this one was always bigger than this one. Now I'm able to figure out through this testing maybe there's a real soft tissue injury that I didn't detect you know prior to using it come to find out Tor MCL. Oh and you didn't know it? I didn't know it. using it, come to find out, Tor MCL. Oh, and you didn't know it? Didn't know it, I competed with it for like three years, didn't know.

You know what I'm saying? But then you're wondering like, okay, so why is my sotaurus all messed up? Why is my groin messed up? Why is all this always hurting when I squat? It's because you're not getting into proper alignment, everything is off. It's still off, right?

Yeah, it lacks stability and everything. Why is my hip, I thought my hip was, thought I was gonna have to have hip surgery, so I get an MRI on my hip. Yeah, because it travels all the way up the kinetic chain. Yep, so I'm like, what's the good news? And they're like, good news is your hip is fine. What's the bad news?

Oh, you tore your MCL. I was like, damn. They're like, well, you could do stem cells for that. I was like, all right, bet. So I did that, now I'm due again, but now I gotta do like whole rehab on this leg because it has like gone down in size. And to be honest, like if, or I'm not gonna say if,

kinda watch your words. When this gets better, I would love to grow these quads again. They look pretty big. Yeah, I would say. I'm wearing tight pants today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, they're pretty big, bro. I would love to see them, you know, because otherwise I'm wearing tight pants today. They're pretty big, bro.

I would love to see them, because otherwise I'm going to have to get all my suits re-tailored, because my ass is like, my wife likes it, right? You can kind of tell in your suits and stuff, you're like, damn. Talk about the reality of just the competing and bodybuilding training that way. You've made a few comments,

you know, about building this or growing that. Like talk about body dysmorphia and how, like how challenging that is in a sport like bodybuilding. I mean, to hear someone like you say, I gotta grow my quads, the average person looks at you and go, what are you talking about? I've never seen cause that big in my life. And I'm nuts, right, saying that, but you're always.

Yeah, talk about that a little bit, because we have listeners who are trying to train, I've never seen cause that big in my life. And I'm nuts, right, saying that, but you're always... Yeah. Talk about that a little bit, because we have listeners who are trying to train, trying to get themselves up, young guys trying to build, young women getting on stage and thinking, this is gonna help me become more fit. Talk a little bit about the challenges of just the body dysmorphia and how you view it, because not weighing yourself, I'm assuming, was a part of that,

was a part of breaking free from that. Yeah, because you realize you're just being so, man, it just consumes you. Totally. And it's not really bringing you joy. You're doing it out of fear of not being loved. A lot of us do bodybuilding because of a lack of feeling loved by other people, validated

by other people, feeling seen and heard by other people because maybe you were raised in a household where you had to perform for love. I think a lot of parents mess their kids up, not intentionally, but just because they wanted the best for them. So like they would say, oh, you gotta get A's, no B's. You know, instead of saying like, hey, I want you to do the best that you can, I really believe you can get an A grade today.

It just takes a little longer sentence. But the impact, you know, makes them believe like, oh, like, if I don't look great, like I suck. And now I gotta compare myself to a million other people on the same damn social media. And now you don't realize that some people are using filters or whatever, but they're just living. But at the end of the day, they're just living,

that person living their life, but you gotta live yours. How do you wanna live it? And how you wanna live it happily? So like, I realized that, man, like I'm never happy. And I was taught that you're never supposed to be satisfied with greatness. Okay, take that pill again. You know what I mean?

Like stand on that type of business and watch what happens. You're gonna be no different than the CEO of a Fortune 500 company that's a billionaire that wants to kill himself. Because he's not happy. It happens all the time. Because he's not happy. That's right. So you have to get to a point where,

once it becomes, and I think it happens with a lot of people, especially in this sport, even if you're natural, like, you're still gonna want more, and you have to love yourself more. You have to not always compare yourself to someone else all the freaking time. That is so draining.

And I get it, like, you're trying to be competitive with your friends, you know, your buddies in the jamming, and you just happen to, I mean, women, they're, I mean, we've got girls that are 20 years old, they're looking pretty muscular. So they're taking some risks at a very early age than we ever have seen. And they're getting paid.

So there's that component. Yeah. So hell yeah, you're gonna have body dysmorphia. Some of these guys never come off. So why would they when they're getting paid for their TikTok? Why would they get, you know, like some people have created characters.

And when they realize like, wow, I don't wanna be that character no more. I have no identity. Who am I now? Right, I'm nothing. Yeah, how do you transition? And that goes in their head. I'm sure they ain't gonna say it,

but like it's in their head. Someone said to me once, relatively recently, it's not who you are, but whose you are, mentioning God, and that really helped quite a bit. Because that's your identity. That's right. If you believe in God, then that's your identity. That's so powerful, dude.

I love that. I'm gonna use that now. Thank you, because, yeah. This past week, I was talking to my wife about similar. I was like, you know, we walked through this life and we fail to realize that we're seeking love from the world when really he already loved you. So if you already believe, you don't really have to seek.

You don't really have to seek. You don't really have to seek him because he's already in you. You just have to acknowledge that he's here. And that should put a smile on your face. To be like, man, he's already here. I can already talk to him. I can tell him my worries, my fears. Holy smokes, okay.

But I gotta believe and I gotta go to work. But I gotta be in love with this life that I have because at some point in time it's gonna end. And I think a lot of these people have to recognize that they have a very, they have a lot of opportunity, but they waste their time comparing themselves to others, way too much, and they don't even love who they are.

And I think that's sad. Like I can say that I loved playing hoops. Did I love sitting at Benjen College? Hell no. But I loved meeting my best friend who I'm still friends with to today. I still love the fact that I got to meet Phil Knight, the CEO of Nike, by playing against Oregon and

Oregon State. And my college coach happened to be golf partners with them. I got a whole tour of that facility. So I should love the fact that I had that experience. And just seeing the alchemy of life, seeing it for what it is. And life is happening more for me than against me. So what are we really talking about? And having body dysmorphia is like,

what is that gonna solve? That means you don't love yourself. So when I meet young people that say, man, I've been stuck at 200 pounds and this and that, like I'm trying to, and I'm like, well, number one, like what's the real goal here? You trying to turn pro or you just trying to be famous? You know what I'm saying?

Like usually it's a fame thing and they want to make money. Okay, well that's still evil in a way. They want to feel love is what they want to feel. Exactly, so like that starts from you. And if they can just, I don't know, maybe sit still for a minute and then ask themselves how many times have they pulled themselves out of some situations or maybe the man upstairs,

kind of, you know, because really that was the person who was doing it You should be more gratitude for what you got and what you can do And you just got to keep you know hands to the plow as they say right gotta put hands to the plow and you know I'm right. You know we all have vision boards and stuff and on mine. I was writing down like How was it was what was it? Was it Matthew? Matthew 19, 26, 24? I think it was saying like, basically saying like,

with man, like, you know, doing stuff through man, like, it's impossible, but with God anything is possible. You gotta really think like that. So when you're over here like, oh man, I can't, what are you talking about? And maybe 250 pounds ain't supposed to be for you. Maybe eight time Mr. Olympia wasn't supposed to be for me. But what can be my eighth sandow?

And I had to ask myself that so then I wouldn't get into this body dysmorphia. I was like, my eighth sand that will be contribution. I said that will be staying involved in the sport that gave me opportunity and meaning and being available. Like when you asked me about like, do I mentor people? Look, I do performance coaching and such, but those are for people that hire me, right? I'm always available. And I'm even available at these experts. Like I said, but I can't make you.

So my now career is just being of service. I want to be a service driven leader that believes in God, that just wants people to do better for their life and have the courage to ask themselves, what is it that you want? And giving yourself permission to go for it. Like you got to give yourself permission to say, Hey, I want that. Is that toxic? So I got permission to go for it. Like you gotta give yourself permission to say, hey, I want that, is that toxic? So I gotta have some discernment. And I don't think every young person knows what that word even means, let alone apply it.

You gotta bump your head a few times, get your butt kicked. But I think, you know, over time, you know, you kinda figure that out in that way, like through love. At least you can sleep better and not as stressed, because that'll kill you. Absolutely. Do you, what are you, so moving forward, what are your plans with, you're involved

in some philanthropy, are you, so talk about that a little bit. So, you know, I've always been involved in philanthropy such as like, like the Make It Fit Foundation, I was always doing appearances and events during the week of the Arnold Classic. Kind of went away from that,

but that was an organization I was working with for autism awareness. Right now, my main focus is with this new administration, is I gotta get with this RFK dude, man. Yeah, that'd be great. Because man, there's just so much, I really do believe that the President's Council of Fitness, that needs to be reestablished.

Totally, we need that. It has to happen. I think right now, like. And for the first time, I mean, listening to you, I've never been optimistic. Never optimistic about government policy when it comes to health. They're typically the opposite of what's good for you.

But for the first time ever, some of the stuff they're saying, I'm like, huh. I feel a little bit like we might be moving in the right direction. They're on to something, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I feel like if we're not, like I went to inauguration,

and I just went to the White House for, it was an acknowledgement for Black History Month. And I was sitting with Judge Joe Brown. Okay, yeah. And he goes, you, And I was sitting with Judge Joe Brown. And he goes, you, he goes, you. And I was like, yes, sir. He goes, you, the way you look and the way you speak, he's like, we need that.

I was like, what are you talking about? He said, we need strength. With this health and fitness stuff, these kids and adults and people having misinformation and all this other stuff is like, but you have to align yourself with the right people that, you know, that understand we can't be living like this no more. Like, you know, we all have to collaborate more because we do have a small window of opportunity to kind of get the echo chamber going and, and kind

of change the perception of like, hey, what's real health? Like, what are we really talking about? Like, what are we really fighting against? Who are we fighting for? Like, is there common sense in this? Is there wasteful spending in this? Why do I, when I travel abroad, like my wife and I will have like an Aperol Spritz, right?

That Aperol Spritz in Italy is the label, like no Red 40, no nothing, none of these weird ingredients. In America, it's all like all this crazy stuff. I could literally go to France, have a burger from McDonald's, not have any type of stomach issues. Nothing.

I did it on purpose. I was like, I'm just gonna eat one of these. Because I don't eat that stuff. I was like, I'm gonna eat this. I go to America, eat it. I mean bubbleguts, like nobody, did you see what's going on here? So it's great. What's his name? Brett Weinstein. He was, he just went to Europe. So he avoids, he can't have any wheat. He gets these crazy reactions. He did an experiment, went out there. He's like, I hear people saying they can eat wheat out here. So he

started eating no reaction. Yeah. So he does. So he has celiac or like, he would know not celiac, but just severe gluten. Wow. So he had no problem. No, no problem. So he started eating, no reaction. Yeah. So he had celiac or like? No, not celiac, but just severe gluten. Wow. So he had no problem. No problem. Glyphosate. And he was posting about that. Yeah, yeah, glyphosate. Yeah, not spraying with Monsanto.

That might be one of the things. I don't know. Well, at least one factor. I've experienced that. Like I can go to Europe and eat foods there that I couldn't eat here. Same food. Like I'd have bread over there.

Over here, bread starts to mess me up. Yeah. So something's going on. So just little stuff like that. And then finding, you know, through social media, having, you know, social media is so powerful. Like, you know, you're running into other athletes that believe in the same things. So it's like, we should be united like freaking Voltron, man, like, totally. And really do this. So it's a great opportunity. I mean, that's where my heart is, you know, if I could be a part of something in government that, you know, works with kids.

Like, I believe that like schools from K through 12, and especially high school, open campuses for high school, I'm not saying you shouldn't have it. What I'm saying is that, and I've been saying this for like 20 years, open concept for lunch. You wanna reduce kids ditching fifth and sixth period,

have better food inside the high school. But it's kinda hard because the schools, they need money for the reader boards, for the gym. Because- They're locked in these contracts. Yeah, because they get locked in with Pepsi Cola, Coca Cola, and they put the damn vending machines on every corner, every hallway, every floor

of the high school. And that's how they pay for it. That's it, they pay for it, yeah. But I think there's gotta be a way to raise money so that that is not the only option. There has to be a way. Compete with it. To compete with it, right?

And if we could do that just in that, I think the kids would have better scholastic achievement. Of course. Through standardized tests. 100%. Teachers don't even wanna have these kids taking these standardized tests because they realize like number one,

their teaching methods suck. And then two, the kids aren't focused because they're high on freaking caffeine. You know, kids walking around, you know, sodas and stuff nonstop, bad food. And some kids, their parents aren't well off enough to provide them good food. So maybe when they go to school,

that's the only nutrition they're gonna get. So we gotta make sure that they have good food, good options. I'm pretty sure if kids had better options, they would make those wise decisions. It's also an important time because if you start with a kid and they learn, they develop a lifestyle that then sticks with them.

So it's a very important time. If I could just influence you a little bit, if you have any influence with any of their policies, I think it would be very important, and this is a bit controversial, but I think it's very important for our incarceration system to have weights and fitness be a part of their rehab. I know a lot of the prisons in California

got rid of those because they were afraid of the- Oh wow, the violence and stuff. Well, they were afraid of the inmates getting too big or whatever, but fitness, exercise, strength training, there's got to be a way we could do it because it's, I could see it be such an important part of rehabilitation. The structure, the discipline, the purpose, and you know, maybe now you have something you could take away if they act out or whatever. But I would love that. I would love to see that. But that's got taken away.

I know in California, they don't allow that. I love my prison. Yeah, y'all got a lot of interesting things going on here. Well, yeah, I mean, there's two sides of the coin, but I'm with you on it because not everybody committed like some crazy crime. We're talking about like, you know, the axe murder or stuff like that. Some people, but even then these are things that you could take away as a privilege. Um,

maybe you don't have like a ton of plates, you know, maybe they're just pen loaded machines. I don't know, but I think they should be able to work out. I think they should have different to work out. I think they should have different options. I know Arnold used to visit prisons all the time. Yeah, I think we'd be very surprised to see, maybe not in Mr. Olympia, but damn near close. No, I'm just saying, like, you get a high school kid

that committed murder or something like that, probably genetically blessed beyond belief, maybe that person becomes, you know, some viral, you know, I don't know, but. I've met a lot of guys, like managing gyms, I've had a lot of trainers work for me who had a past. And fitness was one of their ways out. They didn't compete or anything,

but they just found structure in it, they found discipline in it, it made them feel good about themselves, and then they built a career in fitness as a result. So. Yeah, I love what it brings. I'm with you on that as well. I think it's very important that people,

through fitness, they have that structure. Yeah. And that's something that could be applicable into everything. And it is about self-respect too. Totally. And physical health is very closely connected to mental health. Yeah. You know, physical health is very closely connected to mental health.

Yeah. You know, you make someone physically unhealthy, their mental health starts to go down as well. Yeah, I don't see how. Or how. Or how. Yeah, how do you expect someone to, yeah, that's tough, man.

Because I'm thinking like, you want to empower someone, they're locked up, and then for the officers that are there, y'all need to start training in If they're gonna complain is like, you know y'all start training get better be good for them you got the equalizer too so I mean I mean, maybe I've watched too much mayors of Kingstown and You know prison takeovers and stuff. So I guess we should be.

That can all happen for sure, but I don't think none of it, I don't think that's the answer is what I'm trying to say. No, no, I think we all need, wouldn't it be great, let me ask you, do you remember, what was it called, remember ESPN early in the morning, with Galad and all those dudes, they were training on the beach and stuff.

Oh yeah, yeah. It was like bodies in motion. That's right, that's right. I remember watching that. I think that's what probably struck an interest for me now that I think about it. Really? My mom would wake up in the morning,

at five in the morning, she'd be on the treadmill, like at 5.30, and then we lived in a small house at the time, so I could hear the treadmill, you know, the steps, and I'm like, what's going on? I'm like, my mom in there every day. And then I start watching, you know, just like any kid, you know, you'd be like, what's going on? You're just curious.

And then you see a couple bikini miles, you're like, that looks bad. Now you're watching. That was really watching, I'm like, okay. And then that was back in the day too, like you know, we had a Flex Magazine workout. That's right, the Boyer Co. That was awesome, man.

Those were good times. Those were good stuff. Do you have a favorite era of bodybuilding? Outside of my own? A lot of people like to talk about the 90s, but I think that's because those of us who grew up watching the 90s now we're old enough to talk about it all the time. But yeah, do you have an era that you look at and you go man that was a I would have loved to have competed in That era. Oh, I mean I would have loved to compete like during Dorian and and Ronnie's era for sure I would have loved to be able to stand toe-to-toe with them just so I can end the argument

Are you are you find yourself getting getting compared all the time to I mean, I think Any time a new pro comes out I just look at social media, right? I think one of the greatest compliments you can receive is when they compare you. Yeah, of course. So like a person turns pro or has a great showing, they say, oh, he's reminiscent of Phil Heath. Is he the next dream killer?

Is he the next this? So I look at that, I'm like, well, I did something right. Out of any poll, it's always been like, and I've had other athletes tell me I would not do well against Ronnie Coleman, and even Ronnie probably thinks that he would smash me and stuff. I just, I think that we would be very competitive

because of the current criteria. I think with the criteria that we have today, it would depend on the year. I think 98, 99 would be very difficult. The other ones where he got bigger, he was more washed out in the front, but he was ripped from the rear. You know what I mean?

We're talking about glutes and hamstrings. But I already had that. When you talk about the slabs of beef on his back, okay, that's great, but was it crisp? Was it dry? Was it hard? Now we're going into like very fine tuning and it's a great conversation.

It is. You know, I'm like Kobe man, like I'm not gonna say like, like Kobe wouldn't say like, hey, I'm better than Jordan in this and that. What he got from Jordan is what, you know, made him great. You know, what I, what I did was I took a bit from everyone and made myself great. But I will say, I loved watching Flex Wheeler

compete, man, when he was on. I never saw it live, obviously, but I'd look at that, I'm like, that is ridiculous. When he won the Arnold, what year was it, 95? It was like the most. Silly. Silly, and he wasn't huge either, but it was just so well put together. And I also think like, I have this conversation

every maybe a couple times a year. The black backgrounds were different. Cameras were different. We're looking at something that was heavily sharpened. VHS converted to streaming now, you know what I mean? Like online. So it looks different. Yeah, it looks different. Like you're looking at, everybody talks about that was heavily sharpened VHS converted to streaming now. You know what I mean? Like online. Yeah, it looks different.

Like you're looking at, everybody talks about the 99 British Grand Prix when they had Kevin LeBronnie come out and he looked, you know, oh he was hard and nails and this and this. And I'm like, guys, he was probably hard, no question about it, but like you're looking at an image that was sharpened on VHS. Like you don't even know what that is.

Like I know what that looks like. I could turn a knob and actually make everything look more grainy. Dorianiny we already know that but like I still believe like for myself I would have no problem competing in any era that was my whole goal once I won my first Olympia I was like I guess I want to be yeah because I know how sports work yeah like once you win a title it's like how many can you get now right it's like playing Call of Duty like you can beat the game like you know I'm saying but work. Like once you win a title, it's like, how many can you get now? It's like playing Call of Duty, like you can beat the game,

like you know what I'm saying, but how many times can you prestige, right? Like the people that get the most respect online is the one that has like 10th level prestige or whatever. In bodybuilding, you got Ronnie and Lee, eighth level. Now I'm seven. I knew in my heart, I was like, I win this first one, I was like, saw what happened to Dexter, he only won one.

You gotta win at least four, cause you're with Jay. And then I got four and then I got five and I'm like, oh man. You gotta get seven. I gotta get, I gotta beat Dorian, cause then you're gonna be in that, you know, the conversation.

So I'm already playing with him. Dorian what, six? He wants six, so I'm already thinking in my head like, oh man, if you can get seven, like, because that's saying a lot, and then I said, I'm gonna get 10 of these damn things, you know, don't put no limit on what you're going for. And a lot of people I remember online were like,

this guy's an asshole, he's arrogant, he's this. And I was like, dude, like, I got goals, man. He's competitive. What you hating for? This ain't got nothing to do with you. This has all to do with me and God's plan, man. I'm just trying to fulfill what I believe is true, but I still gotta do the work.

I believe I was one to do the work. But yeah, it's crazy when you, I look back at it now, the eras. I think the 90s was great because you had a gene pool. Greater gene pool. Yeah, you had a gene pool. Greater gene pool. Yeah, you had a lot of guys that were crazy. Great gene pool, Sean Ray, Kevin Leroy, Chris Cormier. Nasser.

Nasser, all those guys like young Jay Cutler. You had Aaron Baker, you had all these guys different. Gunter Schlierke, you had all these guys. And they weren't shredded, but round, well put together. And then, you know, come to 2000s, yes, they were rewarding size and such. But I'm glad the judges did what they did because it pushed everybody.

We would not have, if we didn't have a Ronnie Coleman, I don't know what our spurt would look like. Do you, what do you think of, uh, the classic? I actually became more of a fan of it this year at the Arnold. Not that I was not a fan at all. I just became more over the past year, uh, watching Chris Bumstead retire. I was like, I got tears in my eyes, you know, like watching someone do this. And I was like, wow, that's really cool.

I think it was more of the fact that even with Chris, like it was like watching a person have a goal. He, he did what he wanted to do. He battled a lot of injuries. That was neat. Um, then watching this year's Arnold, I was like, wow, like these guys, this was really cool that they have the height and the weight category. They have to fit in a box.

That's not easy. Um, I love the way these guys look. I was looked at Logan Franklin. I was like, holy crap. Like this guy came out of nowhere. You know, he was my dark horse, you know, and he got sacked. And I was like, wow, this is really neat. What an inclusive division, you know, like, you know, I remember talking

to our lead president, Jim Mang and he was like, if I didn't create this, we would not see a Chris Bumstead. We would not have a Breon. We wouldn't have these amazing athletes because it would have just been open bodybuilding. Yeah. I don't know if it would have existed without social media.

I think social media has opened the doors for all these different kind of categories. Although, it's how challenging to be limited. Like in open, you just go and just be the best that you can possibly be. In classic, it's like you go too far, now you're in another category. Yeah, I totally get that. I actually believe some of those guys,

I believe they're great, but I think that division, there's a future Mr. Olympia that's probably doing that division too long because they're trying to be stuck. Because they could just go to it, right? Yeah, because they realize, or maybe they haven't realized it, but I'm not going to name names, but I can look at some guys that compete in that category. I'm like, dude, man, I could probably train you and show you some things. You could really hurt some feelings and open, but, you know, they have a limited belief system. That's why they, and a lot of people, this is no dig on them or any other category, division.

A lot of, a lot of people don't do open because a limited belief system. I can never get like that where Why I'd have to do this? Why I'd have to do that? It's like, no, you just had to be you. And let the chips fall. But I do like classic. I even like men's physique. I think it's, like I said, it's all inclusive.

Like everybody, like, you know, you get guys that, you know, do the amateur competitions, you know, in men's physique, then go play flag football the next week. You know, like, that's pretty cool. You know, you get guys that, I know, I know ex-pro football players that are getting ready to do classic and men's physique.

Oh wow. Because they're just like, hey, I just wanna do something. That's awesome. And they don't have the, yeah, and they don't have the goal to gain 40 pounds. To do open, you know? Well, it seems like strength training is having its moment, finally.

It looks like mainstream is starting to pick up on it. I can't believe how many women lift weights now. I mean, I've been doing this for so long. I remember when the free weight, it was like, there was no women in there. Yeah. And now women are talking about lifting weights for fat loss, which is amazing. So I think we're now kind of like entering into the golden era of strength training, I would say for mainstream.

They want to show off those glutes, you know? Yeah. You know, I mean straight up, man, like really, it's more, I don't know, like when I go to the gym, I'm like, okay, so they're in here. All right, that's cool. But they're really in here to get that ass big. They're not there to go grow pecs. Like they're there. I never thought I'd see disproportionate glutes.

I'm starting to see that now. Like just hip thrusts. They're just doing hip thrusts like all day long. I'm like, I wanted to do, nevermind. You know, like if I was to open up a gym, I'd be like, okay, glute area, go. Be a lot bigger. Yeah, way over there.

No, I think it's great that women are looking more toward the conversation of, I'm not here toning. Yeah. I'm here to build. Yeah, that's great. Which, that was the whole point. I think even women, talking to other women, were like, you're not toning.

You're growing muscle. And growing muscle is sexy, like it's great. You know, you get healthy. And very much so. And it does keep them, you know, looking younger. I mean, you see some women that like, I put on a bodybuilding show every year in Texas, right? And we'll get a woman that's like mother of four,

close to 50, and she's beating some of these younger girls. Yeah, that's great. And I'll ask them like, so what did you do? And they're like, I haven't stopped training. Even when I had kids, like I made sure I did something. I didn't stop moving. I talked to Arnold last week. I was like, what do you think your secret is?

He goes, never stop moving. Never stop lifting weights. Might lift lighter, you know, cause you can't press as much, but you gotta lift. But I love the fact when I hear women talk about lifting at older lighter, you know, cause you can't press as much, but you gotta lift. But I love the fact when I hear women talk about lifting at older ages, you know, to, I mean, you know all these facts, you know, osteoporosis, all this other stuff.

I think it's great. And it's fun too, because I think that should be something every couple should do. You know, like, why wouldn't you want, like I'm not a good husband if I don't encourage my wife to weight train or do Pilates or, you know, do something. And vice versa. You just wanna sit there and rest, you know, like.

You decay. Oh, yeah. And then get mad, you know. Grow together, keep it going. Yeah, or get out of shape together and then grow the other way. Fist bumping in the hospital, I guess. And that's the harsh reality.

But yeah, I think we're in a really great moment. I just revert back to social media. So really, why are you doing it? Because you can't just do it for the revenge body. Eventually you gotta do this because if the lights got shut off meaning like you've seen that y'all seen this like when Instagram goes down for like an hour people losing their damn minds. Yeah. Yeah. So you wouldn't so more than likely majority of these people let me ask you like do you guys think the

majority of people wouldn't go to the gym if social media didn't exist? I think there's a percentage. Yeah. Yeah, definitely a percentage. The average person does it because they wanna improve the way they look and their health, but there's that loud minority of people that do it for the social media. And I see it now, I never saw this before, but I see people now bring the tripod to the gym

and they're filming themselves. I'm like, unless you're making money doing this, I don't know why you're filming yourself the way you are. I guess that's my question too. It's like, so what's this about? You know, I was watching Pumping Iron the other day and I, sorry, I'm just thinking about it. I'm like, go ahead, go ahead. Every once in a while, so I was listening in the background while they're talking and I noticed there was no music,

no nothing. They were just working out in the gym. And I'm like, I wonder what that would be like if you go in the gym. Clanging weights, that'd be impossible today. No. People would lose their mind. People would lose their mind. Yeah.

Like when we would do photo shoots like after the Olympia, people would lose their mind. Because you'd turn the music off. Because we'd have to turn the music off. We'd tell the owner, like, hey, we're doing a photo shoot. You know, we need to have the music off. And they were like, aw man. We're like, we will pay to turn it off.

Okay, and then turn it off and you get members like flipping out and they're like, dude, that's why you wear headphones. But to prohibit, maybe that would be a good, like hey, during these hours, there's no music. We're just working out. We're just gonna work out. Be a cool experiment. Or hey, gonna work out. Be a cool experiment.

Or hey, we're trying to do a social experiment. Yeah. You gotta leave the phones in locker. Those Faraday bags. Yeah, Faraday bags for everybody. Yeah. And we're just gonna have everybody train for the next four hours and see.

See what happens. So you stick with it. I think after a while, like, that'd be a good experiment. I think. I think I would like it. I think it a while, like, that'd be a good experiment. I think. I would, I think I would, I would like it. I think it would take maybe a week or two. Exactly. And then.

A little detox. And then maybe we'd all start hanging out. Yeah. Talking. Yeah. Helping each other. That's right. Right.

You know, spotting correctly and being an actual community. Yeah. You were, whoa, what? Yeah. Like, how was that possible? Instead of, like you said, just, okay, I'm coming in there with two tripods, a phone, DSLR, got my friend who's editing, and I've got 1000 followers.

And again, like I understand there's commerce in this, so I can't hate on it, but I went to a gym the other day and they have like, they actually have tripods there for you to use. Wow. Wow. Yeah, very different from mine. I didn't know what to, you know what I mean?

I was like, wow, that's really cool, you know, that they're being so accommodating. Yeah. Because I guess that helps the gym owner, right? But then I'm like. The guys like us don't wanna go to that gym. Right. At least me, yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. And I got, I, I don't know how you guys feel about this,

but you're in there to really get after it right. And you see someone flat out do a 20, 30 minute wait session. They've changed clothes four times and they leave. Yeah. And they've lived, they left every dumbbell plate just on the floor. There's a gym culture that you gotta understand that. I've seen that, like even at Armbreast where I trained for those Olympias, I go in there one day and I see this guy and a girl

and they've got like a gym bag full of clothes and they're just like, and I'm like, okay, they're doing content, okay, no problem. But then they just did very little, but created a lot of space and pandemonium and then just bounced. And I was like, oh man. So that's what your workout is.

But then I go on their social and they're like, yeah, we just got done killing it, killing the gym, this and that. And I'm like, yeah. Oh man. It's a bit of a show, yeah. I kicked him out of my gym. Oh, you would?

You'd be like, hey, how would you do it? I out of my gym. Oh you would? Oh yeah. You'd be like, hey, like how would you do it? I would just get, you just, you either work out or you leave, like yeah, yeah. Go do your content somewhere else. You know, maybe that wouldn't be good for business, but I think it would. I think you could charge more, because people would pay more to have a gym

where the atmosphere was real gym culture. Do you think this current era of, let's say, 18 to 24 year olds even understand what, like, you talk about gym culture. Yeah, I think that you're seeing a little bit of a backlash because they grew up with social media, cell phones, easy access to everything, and you're now starting to see data showing that a lot of them,

some of them are getting flip phones because they want to just get off their phones. They're seeking hard things. Yeah, I think that they're like, I think they're starting, some of them are starting to realize like, yeah, I got to do something different. I'm unhappy, I'm anxious. So I think you'll start seeing a little bit of a shift to where people are not gonna be on as much. Not most people, but I think there'll be some people that are doing that. And you're starting to see that with some kids. Gen Z is very interesting if you look at the data on that. They're different. They're coming out different for sure.

So they're just a little bit more curious? They're more, they're going back to faith and they're, especially Gen Z. A lot of the old values they're kind of grabbing right now. I think it's because they grew up with, yeah. So yeah, they, yeah, they just, I'm glad to hear that because I worry a little bit, like you're consuming, you're, you're, you're praying to this phone. That's right.

All the time. It's like, this isn't like you're getting overwhelmed because of this device and that you have no vibration, nothing high. It's all low vibrational crap. I literally can get on my phone first thing in the morning and I've had to practice mindfulness because if I grabbed that phone and I love going on X and it's drama. Yeah, that's all it is. But it's kind of funny. I mean, you know, and I have a decent sense of humor so I read this I'm like, and I'm like, no, no, no. And I

literally had to post it notes. My wife was like, you got to put the damn post notes on your side of the bathroom. I was like, yeah, you're right. Meditation, prayer, then, you know, check email, then check text. You gotta have some, like, 20 minutes for yourself. Barriers there, yeah.

Dude, because otherwise I'm grabbing the phone right away. It's like right next to your, on your nightstand. Totally. You never get away from it, and it will consume you. Totally. As much as you think it, oh no, like, no. I think a lot of the things you learn too with the discipline of bodybuilding

can be applied to so many different places. Just the discipline aspect of it. Because you train yourself for so long to eat on a schedule, train at this time, whatever. So you start to identify issues in your life, you've got that carryover of discipline. Say, okay, I'm going to make it so I'm not on my phone and I'm going to do it this time. I'm not going to go on this, you know.

Where do you think that was applicable for you? Like where like... Oh, everything. Absolutely. Yeah. I think you learn to embrace struggle, you develop a different relationship with pain, you learn how to apply discipline, you learn how you can make something an idol that's not supposed to be your God. That's a big one. Boy, I'm taking a deep breath on that one, man. That's a very big one.

Yeah, huge, man. Uh-huh. But I think you learn it's a great vehicle for growth, but it is not the end all. The end all. No. When did you, have you always been like that? No. Oh man, this is, no, I just, I mean, I came to faith recently but and that's really what made the biggest the biggest difference for me

That's all before that. It was just Body image issues and training other people helped a lot because I cared about them So it's easy for me to see what they were doing and help them But then eventually start to go maybe I should take my own advice Yeah, no, that's great man, I appreciate you saying that cuz but then eventually start to go, maybe I should take my own advice. You know? I think we all gotta. It's always hard to do. Yeah, no that's great man, I appreciate you sharing that cause I catch myself sometimes, you know, I'll do a post and I'm writing all this stuff

and I'm like, now you, before you press send, are you emulating this not just today but you've been doing this consistently? And if not, you might want to say this in your draft, in your draft folder. Because I feel like if I press send, up there, no, for real, because I've done that. I got slapped.

Got slapped with some reality, like a friend will call me out, wife would call me out, and I'd be like, no, you're right. Because then you realize, I'm just saying some words, or am I acting? Am I working with conviction, or I'm just trying to sound cool for social? And just having the integrity, you know what I mean?

Because I think when you do have that faith, you realize that's the person you answer to. You got some of the point. Yeah, you gotta have, you know, you I think when you do have that faith, you realize like, that's the person you answer to. You got some of the point. Yeah, you gotta have, you know, you're a star. And I think a lot of the time, like, you end up just saying stuff. My stepdad, he used to say, people just flap their jaws to hear their teeth do the boogie.

And you see that every freaking day on social media. And it's like, do you really do this? Did you really kill the gym today? What about yesterday? What about tomorrow? How do you handle struggle? Is it always gonna be grunting, cussing through workouts and stuff?

Take it with a grain of salt. Social media is advertising. I don't believe them. No. Because I've been in those gyms. And you're smart for not believing it. Everybody should not believe social media for the most part. I don't believe it at all.

The majority of the time I don't believe it at all because I'm like, where's the proof in your performance? Like, where did you become this millionaire? Or where did you become this guru? Or like, oh, you did one show and you turned pro and now you're this coach? Like, how? Amazing.

How? You run in gyms, like have you seen more, because me being a show promoter, I welcome everyone to do a competition, right? But I find that with the increase in numbers, I find coaches wanting to be more famous than the athletes. You find that more? The coaches want to be like, look at me, look at me, look at me.

This is what I did. Right? This is what I did. And okay, great. But then I feel like now, with all that said, these coaches are also being drug dealers. Just to get someone to compete. So then if I give you all these dyes and stuff

and I say, hey, just take this. Where do we get that? I'll give it. And then I'll hook you up, and then I'm willing to push this client to go do X, Y, Z just so then they place and they win. I don't know what's gonna happen to them five years from now,

but that's gonna give me 10 more clients. Yeah. And I see that, because I have some of these clients come up to me and say, is this what I should be doing? Who gave this to you? Oh, my coach, and this is a woman, you know? He told you to do this? No.

Well, what should I do? This. Nothing. More time in the gym. Better posing. Understanding how to peak during the week. That's good that they can approach you like that. I'm thankful.

It doesn't happen as much as I would like. Well, good, so let people know. But yeah, no, I'm telling them all. Like, hey, it doesn't happen as much as I would like. Well good, so let people know. But yeah, no, I'm telling them all, like hey, it's good, like, you know, go on my link and buy on Instagram and hire me for a call, that's great, because I've worked with people, that's what I currently do, you know?

And most recently I've done it for the past month, like legit, like, I'm gonna sit my ass at home, I'm gonna answer calls all day. legit, like, I'm gonna sit my ass at home, I'm gonna answer calls all day. And there's so many people just getting cookie cutter advice. And I get so, like, shame on these trainers. That's what I really wanna say. Like, shame on the trainers for wanting to be famous

instead of just figuring out, like, how can you deliver this person to their goal without having to do anabolic? Can you do that? Can you just get them to a point where they've maxed themselves out and then they can say, okay, let that be the choice of the athlete, but then also you be like the voice of reason of saying,

I don't, you still lack in these areas. You still, like, PDs ain't gonna make you grow a weak body part. Your form, your technique, you're able to recover, spinal alignment, all this stuff, in my opinion, is what makes those body parts come up. Ain't no drug to go make that come up. That's why you see more guys, they get 300 pounds

and they still have weak points. You should You should have like there should be more. I mean you guys watch the sport. Like how many guys have like no flaws? Yeah. No. Yeah. And they're winning though. I'm like, damn. Well, I think my shit. I'm getting the edge. See I mentioned. He wants to compete again. I'll smash him. Well, Phil, this has been great. I know.

Thank you, guys. It's been great having you on the show, bro. So it's a long time coming. Really appreciate all your honesty. And you're a great brother. Got a great mentality. Yeah, very, very good mentality. Can't wait to see what you're going to be doing next.

So very good. Yeah, no, I appreciate you guys. No, this has been fantastic. And I love the studio. Yeah, thank you so much. Freaking dope. And yeah, well, we definitely need to align with that whole mission,

you know, for influencing the youth. Yes. Get involved with that. You got to keep in touch, man, because I think there's a lot, especially in the state of California. I mean, you guys got a lot, tons of athletes. Yeah, tons of athletes. And I know some guys, too, that work with youth.

My friend runs a Premier league down in LA. He trains a lot of youth that end up going to college and such, but I feel like there's a nutrition aspect. I feel like there's a training aspect that I think we can all collaborate on. And now I keep looking, I'm like, I know we're saying goodbye, but I'm looking at Han Solo.

I'm like, you guys, I gotta come back because I'm a huge Star Wars fanatic. Oh man, we got plenty to cover there. Yeah, yeah. I hear my world over there. This is great, man. We'll have you back on for sure, man. Thank you guys so much.

And if there's anything I can do to amplify whatever you guys going on, even just, I don't care what it is, man. All right. It's very rare that I meet gentlemen like yourselves and I just vibe out with, you know, this has been great. So thanks for having me. Appreciate it, man. Appreciate it. Yeah, you're great.

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