Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2587: This is What a Great Trainer Looks Like With Ben Bruno

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

Ben Bruno How long has he been training? (1:11) His love/hate relationship with the social media space with fitness. (2:05) The keys to building life-long clients. (16:25) The art of meeting a client where they are. (27:42) The simple traits that set good trainers apart. (29:52) Star f*****. (43:01) Do right by people. (50:50) His mentors in the fitness space. (55:59) Being a generalist vs. having a niche. (1:02:19) As a trainer you can only have good days and great days. (1:06:44) Training actors vs. athletes. (1:12:06) What clients have made the biggest impact on him? (1:16:36) Life is not all you see on social media. (1:19:11) Frustrating “science dorks.” (1:21:24) Is the barbell hip thrust overrated? (1:30:17) Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (1:34:23) Knowing your audience and how to speak. (1:44:30) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit Seed for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Promo code 25MINDPUMP at checkout for 25% off your first month’s supply of Seed’s DS-01® Daily Synbiotic** April Special: MAPS HIIT or Extreme Fitness Bundle 50% off! ** Code APRIL50 at checkout ** Visit Caldera Lab for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Code MINDPUMP20 for 20% off your first order of their best products. ** Ben Bruno trainer post Mind Pump #2505: The Story of Mind Pump (10 Year Anniversary Special) How Good Do You Want to Be?: A Champion's Tips on How to Lead and Succeed at Work and in Life – Book by Nick Saban Developing the Leaders Around You: How to Help Others Reach Their Full Potential – Book by John C. Maxwell Mind Pump #2047: How to Become One of the Highest Paid Trainers in the Fitness Industry With Don Saladino Trainer the Trainer Webinar Series Mind Pump #2517: Hip Thrusts vs Squats… Which Builds a Rounder Butt? Mind Pump #2562: Seven-Time Mr. Olympia Winner Phil Heath Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Ben Bruno (@benbrunotraining) Instagram Website Chelsea Handler (@chelseahandler) Instagram DON SALADINO (@donsaladino) Instagram Eric Cressey (@ericcressey) Instagram Justin Timberlake (@justintimberlake) Instagram Mike Boyle (@mbsc_online) Instagram Gunnar Peterson (@gunnarfitness) Instagram Bret Contreras PhD (@bretcontreras1) Instagram Michael Israetel (@drmikeisraetel) Instagram Phil Heath (@philheath) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is MindPump. Today's episode, we have celebrity trainer, Ben Bruno on. He talks about how he became one of the world's most sought after personal trainers. He teaches us techniques, he's hilarious, great personality, he's got great stories,

but honestly, if you wanna learn about fitness or you wanna learn how to be a successful trainer, don't miss this episode. This episode's brought to you by, oh, by the way, you can find him at Ben Bruno Training on Instagram. Now this episode is brought to you by, oh, by the way, you can find him at Ben Bruno Training on Instagram. Now this episode is brought to you by a sponsor, Seed, this is the world's best probiotic, hands down.

If you wanna try them out and get a discount, go to seed.com forward slash mind pump, use the code 25mindpump, get a discount. We also have a sale this month. MAPS hit and the Extreme Fitness Bundle are 50% off. If you're interested, go to mapsfitnessproducts.com and then use the code April50 for the discount. All right, here comes the show.

Ben, welcome to the show. Thank you. Yeah, so we, checking out your Instagram, I love finding, because you don't see this too often, you don't see too often fitness, I'm gonna say something you don't like, influencers, okay, I'm sure, a real trainer hates that term, who communicates like someone who's experienced, who's trained

lots of people. Oftentimes you see fitness advisors, you're like, oh that person, I could tell they've never worked with anybody. I could tell they worked themselves out. But you have a lot of experience and you can tell by the way you communicate your information that you've trained a lot of people. How long have you been training? How long have you been doing this? 19 years. Yeah, see? 19. Honestly, since college it's all I've done,

and for better or worse, I have just about zero life skills outside of taking someone through an hour long workout. Okay. But I've found that if you can. But you're really good at that. If you can do that well enough, you can sorta make the rest of stuff fall into place, at least enough to. So what do you think of this social media space

with fitness? It's gotta be... I'm sure you gotta kind of love-hate relationship with it. Well, first off, dude, I... When we were going on a walk talking before, I didn't put two and two together, but I just realized that you... are the person that got me putting moisturizer on my face.

No way! You... Don't you..., you, don't you. Full circle. Don't you talk like a face. Caldera, Caldera. Yeah, Caldera. Dude, it's. No way.

I got hit with this ad and it was, timing's everything, but it was, my wife was ripping on me, I'm starting to get wrinkled, I turned 40 this year. And my whole life, I've just, you know, I have like a two in one shampoo and conditioner that's actually a four in one, cause it's a face wash and a body wash. It's all I ever do. Just like the whole deal. It's the whole shebang. And I'm like, I used to kind of think dudes that like did moisturizer. I'm like, I don't know. That's a little less than masculine.

Yeah, and then I was seeing the ads and I'm like, I think I gotta fucking put on a moisturizer. I don't have the one you do, but I moisturized this ads and I'm like, I think I got to fucking put on a moisturizer. I don't have the one you do, but I moisturize this morning. I do it like probably not every day, but most days. On your way out, I'll be open to all kinds of Caldera. Caldera will love us for doing that. I realize that. Yeah, because it's starting.

I'm like, fuck, this aging thing is not my deal. No, I appreciate that. Thank you. It's hard to do this. You know what's so funny about it? We started this talking about the internet and the love-hate relation with social media. It is so wild to us when that. Thank you. It's hard to do this. You know what's so funny about, we started this talking about the internet and the love hate relation with social media. It is so wild to us when that happens right there. Now we've reached a level now where people see ads

of our partners that they're running. Yeah. That we're like, Sal will be known as the Caldera guy. Or Yix. Yeah, you have Viori, you have Viori guys? Like, you know. It's so funny. Yeah, yeah.

Not that we're trainers or anything that we actually think we're good at. Exactly. You're the Caldera guy. No, I mean, I thank you, man. I was just gonna say, your face looks amazing. Yeah, thank you. This episode's not even sponsored by us.

I'll give a free plug. They'll love it. Up to check. I'm a customer. Great. So, okay, so what are some of the biggest pet peeves you have with our space on social media? Because like we all trained people and worked in gyms before it was even a thing.

I mean this wasn't a thing at all for us until we started this company and even then it wasn't until halfway through because we started figuring things out. And it's a crazy space to navigate. There's a lot of good and bad information that's out there. There is yet. Well, so before I start, you guys Seinfeld fans? Die Hard, bro. You know Festivus? Yes, of course. I heard the airing of the grievances. Yeah, I don't want this to feel like Festivus because I actually do think that the Internet's the single best place to learn information and then seconds not even close. So you just got to take the good with the bad. But I think the stuff that when Adam and I first connected,

it was about a post I did, I think, talking about online training. And really all I was saying was that it's a weird time to be a trainer because the information that's given out about training is from people that don't train. And that's a weird thing. And sometimes I feel old and I think we all have

to change with the times. It's a very, you know, when I first started learning about training, it was all through books. And that was a different, totally different thing. And the pros to that were the only people that wrote books were like the actually good trainers. The cons to that was the only information you got was the book.

And so now it's a weird time. As somebody who trains, it seems like the way to succeed on the internet is super different, almost polar opposite to the way to succeed with a client. Explain that. So to succeed with a client versus online, what do you mean by that? Well, you know, so for example,

I've been a trainer in Los Angeles for 12 years. Most of my clients I've had eight years plus. It's a long time. And with that, I would say long-term client retention really just boils down to getting people to their goals in a way that doesn't disrupt the rest of their life. Getting to their goals safely without excessive soreness, all this stuff. The way to stand out online seems to be to make things hard as fuck and unique as fuck and things like where I, as a trainer who's trained a lot of people, I look at stuff and

think like nobody really does that. It seems there's a, I kind of like play out the tape on what I'm seeing and going, they either just start their workout with this weird thing and then go do their normal workout or like they just throw this in at the end. But I'm like, people don't work out like that in real life. That aren't total gym heads. Like, you know, and I think you can really stand out online

if you're just really fit yourself, just kind of like flexing what you can do, but that's not really helpful to normal people that most people can't do that. And so I guess that's what I meant. And then the education thing is weird because we now have a lot of fitness business coaches that are almost 100 hundred percent failed trainers

They just you know, their gym shuts down and then they yeah start doing Facebook ads about how to run a gym and I'm like I don't know like if I want to be listening to that, you know, maybe they have good advice but it's a that's just calling it what it is, you know, it's a The amount of times that I get hit up by someone that wants to help me grow followers by some shady tactics and I'm like, you tried to be a trainer and you failed. Like, that's not who I wanna be learning from.

And at the same time, the internet shit's fucking confusing. And you know, I don't know how to do it that well, like most trainers don't. And so I don't begrudge the consumer for listening to these people, because it's what's in front of them all the time. I have a lot of trainer friends.

I'm actually, so that post I did, Adam, it got well received by some, and I'm glad we connected through it. And then I feel like a lot of trainers missed my point, if I'm being honest, because, go figure, it's social media, it's crazy. But my point was twofold. One, that I think the consumer needs to be wary

of what they see, but two, I actually think that the people training that have good info could probably stand to just take some time to learn how to, the ways of the world and get it out there because my whole thing is like, until two years ago, I didn't even have an online program, but I would just sit around with my trainer friends talking shit about all the online programs

and I was probably right, but like you're not making any change at the same time. So I don't know if I know all the answers, but I do think it's a weird thing that with tech, a lot of the trainers that have been doing it a long time, I'm generalizing, but it seems like I don't have any trainer friends that are great trainers that have been doing it a long time

that are very tech savvy. It's just sort of like we're all like meatheads that are trying to figure it out. So that means that these people that become the authorities aren't the ones that have done it or are doing it. I think a lot of young internet people are seeing that you can make a lot more quick money going online. And I get that. You know, I also think that trainers have this weird badge of honor about like always struggling financially. So I see like both sides, but it's a little, it's worrisome to me the information that's taken as gospel isn't

very good information a lot of times. And even on podcasts outside of fitness podcasts, like this podcast is probably, the listeners are all probably fitness-minded people, right? But then, you know, I'll see clips on the kind of just like self help type podcasts that go to more people like my mom or just regular people. And it's always just the trainers that have a lot of followers. And, and there's some trainers that have a lot of followers that are great

trainers and there's a lot that have a lot of followers that don't know their ass from their elbow. And that's what's going out to the general podcasts. And so it's, you know, I don't quite know the solve and I definitely don't want to sound like a curmudgeon because I think the internet's awesome, it's been good for me, it's how we connect and I wouldn't know you guys without it.

But I also think that there's a lot of issues. Do you think it's just a time thing? Like I feel so much the same way. I also think that this is what gave me hope about what we were doing. So ten years ago, we're already ten plus years into our training career. So getting to the place where we consider ourselves pretty good. Okay, what we did right by about year 10. And I saw the exact same thing that you've literally just described is I looked at the landscape and I went, wow, most of the most popular people right now, this is back when Instagram had just started, YouTube had been going for a little bit, nobody even knows what a podcast is. And the authorities, the advice they were giving was stuff that I was probably

touting when I was 19, 20. Stuff that I thought was probably, I thought, oh man, these guys and girls just have so much more to learn. They haven't trained enough people. They haven't learned enough. They haven't been around long enough. And so I thought, man, if we could just get out there, I don't know how to turn the camera on. I don't know how to turn the mic on. I don't know how to do any of this shit, but if we could just get our information out there, I think we can help a lot of people and I think we could figure this out. And that was really what gave me hope for this thing was because we were terrible. I mean, we were really bad from the jump. Just none of us have media experience, talking to a camera, pretending millions of people are listening is so not my

thing. I do so much better with a real person. Doing the camera thing is so opposite. And you find too, the people that tend to be really good at the camera thing aren't the best socially and in person with real people. And so once we kind of figured out how to work this and do this, it's just been this slow growth for 10 years because the good advice, the real advice, the stuff that really changed lives and helps people, it's not sexy. It just takes a little longer for people to get it and then word of mouth sorts of travel. So sometimes I wonder if we're just in this weird time that like we were before social media and we're kind of at this early stages still and maybe the cream will rise eventually. Yeah. I mean, I think it's all evolution.

I think most trainers are failed athletes, you know, like me. I can tell you like if I could, like, I'll be the first to say, if I could play any sport professionally, I wouldn't be a trainer. But I'm not good enough at any of them. So then I just started like, you know, kind of like did the next best. I'm kind of like still in the orbit of sports. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm a little bit of an uncle Rico in that

way, that type, you know, uh, I'm playing a reunion. Yeah. Like you guys want to hear how much I bench when I was 21. Yeah. But it's, uh, so I get, you know, the trainers that are training all day, yeah, how are you gonna also do the online stuff? I started like an app,

but I don't even have a subscription app. It's just one-off programs two years ago, but it's essentially a full-time job in and of itself. It's like, I used to think trainers are always like talking to each other, like, I need to figure out how to make passive income. So forever I'm like, I'm gonna do this program, it's gonna be passive income.

Then you have 100 customer service emails a day and you're like, fuck, this ain't passive. No, it's another job. It's not passive at all. So I think it's, I get why people do this as their full-time job, the online thing. Or the, you know, like, if you ever see me post most days on social media,

that means most of my clients are out of town. It's like an inverse how much I do on social media versus how much I'm training. It's just that, that's just how it works, you know? The other stuff takes time too. So I think, and I actually think some people are better suited for online training versus in-person training just the same as You know every time I go to a spin class and I see the instructor I'm like better than than me if I were spin instructor, I'd be fired in two days

I this is as animated as I ever get as a person so I'm not You know, I saw you guys have an orange theory across the street. You know, I've managed to do high level personal training but I would suck at that. You know, I think you have to know your personality, your skill set. I interned to do with a college football team because I thought I might want to be a strength coach

and real quick I was like, I'm not good at this. I'm better at personal training. But some people are great strength coaches and they have that energy, that kind of commands a group. And I feel, I felt like an imposter when I was, when I'm yelling at people. I think when you're not yourself, people know. And I suck at the group thing. I'm just just I'm better at one-on-one training

If you saw me with my clients like, you know, I'm I'm this is this is it Like I'm kind of like half asleep, but it works for the right type of person I'm never gonna be yeah, you know like and and again I think you just have to one of my best friends is like a rah rah guy, the first time he ever lifted with me, I was trying to push a last rep and he's like, come on! And I racked it and I'm like, dude, I don't do that shit. You know what I mean? Calm the fuck down.

You know, I get it, but I don't, I find that very annoying where some people find it motivating to each their own. It's like, I'm not saying that's better or worse, you just have to know yourself, I think. Yeah, you know, I'm not saying that's better or worse. You just have to know yourself, I think. Yeah, you know, you said something that I think is a hallmark of a really good trainer. I think when trainers who start in the industry,

one of the big challenges is the client turnover. Big challenge, right? Like, I get new clients, they stay with me for one package, maybe two packages, and then they drop off, and I gotta get new clients again. So it's a big conversation. It's always this big conversation about leads and clients and how I build my business.

But what I found with really good experienced trainers, like myself, Justin, Adam, other people I've worked with, and you, I heard you say the same thing, was that my clients, when I got good, I should say, it took me a while, they didn't leave. I had clients with me for 10 years. They didn't leave. I had Carol, 9 a.m., Monday morning, for 10 years.

She just didn't leave. What is it? And you said a few things. I don't get them too sore, it fits their life. Go into more detail. We have a lot of trainers that listen to the podcast. And I think this is important to talk about because if you can do this as a trainer,

you have a career, you build a career, build a client base over a couple years, now you've got your client base and they tend to not go anywhere. You'll get very few people dropping off. What are the keys to making that happen, to having a client base that just stays with you? Well, first off, I wanna say I love what you said.

I think the world judges trainers based on how they look, who they train, and their social media following. And I think none of those matter. And I say that as someone who, I probably could lean into the who you train thing. I have a great clientele. I don't think my clientele makes me a good trainer. I think the only two things that I judge a trainer by

are if you were to walk in the gym and watch me train my clients, do they do it well? And two, client retention. Like if you keep people a long time, you're doing something right. And that's it. And so I take a lot of pride in, I do take pride in who I train.

I think there's an element of like, if they could pick anyone, I feel good about that. But I take way more pride. I make a thing. I try not to share just like random photos of me with some famous client. But I like to celebrate their gym achievements because I think it's really cool to get somebody good in the gym or whatever. And the client retention thing, I would say that training's part art, part science,

and depending on who the client is, they'll care more about the art or the science, and I think the key is knowing that. I think some of my clients, I explain the whys behind what I'm doing. I get a little more into the weeds, and then some of them, I explain the whys behind what I'm doing. I get a little more into the weeds. Then some of them, I have clients that have trained me 12 years that don't know what any exercise is called because I just give them a demo and then tell them how many to do.

Then we talk about other stuff because I know they only care this much. I think the key is knowing that. I read, I love, I learn a lot more from non-trainers these days than I do from trainers, but I read Nick Saban's book, because I think at the end of the day, we're all coaches. And he had a part in there, because I think it's way harder to be, to me, I love Nick Saban,

because I think when you're a pro coach, you have way less turnover. But if you're at a top program like in Alabama and your stars leave every three years, he's had success with a lot of different people. And he was talking about how he has a sense of what dudes to be hard on and what dudes to be nice to and you know if you're hard to a dude that's that doesn't respond well to that you could you know make them worse and if you're And some people like based on their upbringing based on their personality You got to be nice to them to bring out the best in them and some people

You can mother fuck them a little more and that'll make them dig deep But some people if you if you do that to someone that maybe has personal trauma, they just shut down. And I think it's, personal training's way less intense than that, but I think that you just sort of, I start every new client I ever have, my entire assessment is three questions. It's your goals, your past injury history,

and your past training history. And for your goals, it's pretty self-explanatory. Injury history, self-explanatory, and past training history just gives me an idea of how far down this exercise spectrum you are. And I think it's important to meet people where they're at and then just like kind of go gradually. Totally.

There's a misconception too, because this is important, but the longer you train a client, the less important this becomes. Or maybe put differently, it becomes a little more nuanced. A successful trainer helps their clients get to their goals. But when you train someone for 12 years, we're not hitting goals. It's not about goals anymore. Yeah, we lost the weight, and we're strong, we feel good.

Now they're showing up, because they feel good, and also, and this is a big one, they like to see me. They like you. They like me, we're hanging out. Dude, I'll tell you, you know, because I travel with some of my clients, so we're on planes, we're in hotels, and I would bet that, when I talk about you, you know, cause I travel with some of my clients. So we're on planes, we're in hotels. And I would bet that when I talk about art science, I bet the ones that picked me to

travel, it's probably just 90% cause we get along. Cause truthfully, when you travel training clients, you're not, you're training in some hotel gym you've never been in, like, there's nothing to write home about in that workout. It's just to keep a consistent fitness plan, so I think that's really just a personality thing. But I do think that it's just important to meet people where they're at,

and the goals thing that you said, I think a lot of trainers go wrong in the beginning, like, particularly male trainers are almost always dudes that just like to lift and then they're like, let me try to parlay this into a job, but they're people that like to train way more than the average person that hires a trainer. Way more.

And they just impose their goals on people, but I always tell trainers, the best thing you can learn is the personal part of personal training is them, not you. And if you learn that and actually live by that, you'll just have them for life. Just realize, if a dude tells you what his goal physique is, don't judge it, just go with it.

You know, amongst men, amongst women, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So, you know, to some people, a thin build is not ideal. They want to be big. To some people, that's their worst nightmare, being big. And it's not my goal to judge. It's just to like, to do that, you know?

And women's fitness, particularly recently, as there's been like a rise a rise in women doing strength training, and some women now take it pretty extreme. And I think I, as a dude training women, all I really do is just listen to what they tell me they want to do and then just do that. And there's a big spectrum. And it's kind of none of my business. It's only my business to... When I think about my programming style, I just say I'm

sort of captain obvious as far as I listen to what you want to do and then I just do that. And that's it. And really not much else. Keep it safe. Nothing else. It's just sort sorta, yeah, keep it safe. And at the forefront of everything, I believe the client retention thing,

the only thing I'll say is, I'm definitely not the hardest trainer. The whole spiel I give everyone in their first session, I say throughout this whole process, we strive for seven out of 10 hard, both in terms of every set should be about seven out of 10 hard and you should leave the workout feeling like it was seven out of 10 hard.

You could have done more, but by the way, seven out of 10 hard's not that easy. Like a true seven out of 10 hard. Yeah, but you know what ten out of 10 hard all the time leads to? The clients are gone. Yeah, correct. Well, exactly.

Burnout injuries. And I'll tell you you know I've um I I think that ultimately a good example you know I've trained Chelsea Handler for 12 years and I would say at least once a week she tells me to Google new exercises we're doing the same shit. This wasn't hard enough. You don't know how to do abs. 12 years I've been like, fuck the wifi is down. I don't know how to Google anything. Guess we're going to do the same shit we've been doing.

And she'll kind of laugh about it. And that are 12 years. Cause like, you know, uh, I think people, a lot of people want that soreness, that, you know, if you train someone 10 out of 10 hard and beat the fuck out of them, a lot of people, some people, that's just like a hard pass, but some people love it. But it just doesn't, it doesn't, you know,

if you play the tape out on that, there's an end point. And then, you know, every single person that I train had like a negative experience prior. I'm nobody's first trainer, but I hope to be their last kind of thing in the sense of like, I think a lot of insecure trainers beat the shit out of people initially to kind of assert their expertise. I did early days. That's what I thought you were supposed to do.

And it's just, I tell everyone trust the process know, trust the process, I'd rather you, my whole spiel, seven out of 10 hard, I'd rather you leave today feeling like I'm too easy than too hard, we can always do more, we can't walk it back if you overdo it. Spoken like an experienced trainer. And that's, you know, now that said, the assessment that I do is goals, injury history,

past training history. Based on the past training history, that lets me know how I play the first workout. And if somebody has very, very little experience, our first workout's like almost nothing. Two sets of a couple things, call it a day. And that's just like, you know, because I think that with somebody like that,

if they're sore, they're gonna say, I don't know that I want to make this a lifestyle. But I think that if somebody's past history is like, I enjoy beating the shit out of myself at Orange Theory, I make it a little bit harder. And they do feel that little bit of soreness of like, okay, cool, we're on the right track type of thing. And so that's, you know, I do think it's important to gauge what people are, where they're at and what they like. Cause I mean, none of us will, nobody's gonna stick to anything if they just fully hate it.

Of course. And I think we're all people that like the gym, we do it on our own accord. Most people that hire trainers, I think for a lot of my long-term clients, truthfully, I'm as much of an accountability partner as a as a trainer you know, it's um we've been doing the same shit for a long time and they probably could recite the workout when they walk in but they still come and

So You know, there's that there's you just you glossed over something right now that I think is such an art, or Sal would say, a hallmark of a great trainer, is the ability to know your client where they're currently at. And even if, like, let's use the orange theory, cortisol junkie is what we normally call it, right? That like, just needs to get beat up.

And if you train that person on their first time training them, and you give them, you know, four exercises, one set at six percent, that just needs to get beat up. And if you train that person on their first time training them and you give them four exercises, one set at 6% separate, they're never going to come back because they're going to be like, this guy sucks. Even if it's the right thing. Even if it's the right thing for them. So there's a real art to meeting a client where it's at.

And sometimes meeting them where they're at is way less than you know where you want to take them. And sometimes it's even a little more than you know where you want to take them. And you have to walk them back. Like that cortisol junkie person that I've had trained a lot of, I trained a lot of like high performing executive CEOs,

people like that, right, type A's. And that was something I'd always have to do is like, man, I knew like, man, this person is, their sleep is shit, cortisol's through the roof, like last thing they need is for me to crush them in a workout, but that's what they want from me. So I'd have to give them a little taste of what they want so they kind of come back,

and then I slowly drop the science and work them back to get them to where they need to be. For sure. I mean, sometimes it's as simple as if I have somebody, when you've been doing it for a long time, there's a lot of exercises that are soreness producers and some that aren't. And I think if I have a woman that loves to be sore, I could always just throw in two sets of walking lunges and that'll make you sore.

If I have an athlete that I definitely don't want to make them sore because they have practice or a game later that day, will do like a split squat, which they're cousins. It's the same shit. For long-term, I don't give a shit if you do a lunge or rear foot elevated split squat or reverse lunge. They're all basically the same to me. But you can kind of say like,

this one might be better for the person that wants to be a little sore because it makes them feel like coming back. And the person that wants to be a little sore because it makes them feel like coming back. And the person that doesn't want to be sore because they have to run after this, pick the stuff that doesn't make them sore. How do you feel about this statement that the most, because there's a lot of things that a good trainer

needs to understand and do, but the most important thing, especially when you're training average person. So most trainers who have careers who want to build a career in fitness are not going to be training pro athletes, they're not going to be training the average person. So how do you feel about this statement? The most important thing that a trainer needs to understand is to help this person develop a relationship with exercise where they enjoy it

and they want to do it for the rest of their life. That's more important than anything else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that and just teaching good form. It's funny, I actually think training's a very hard job. I don't think anyone that's successful would, there's so many times I think I picked the wrong

fucking job to be good at. Because I train a lot of high performers that make a shitload of money in every other field. And there's no way to make a shitload of money as an in-person personal trainer. They're just, you know. So you have to get. You can do well, but you're not going to become a man.

No, yeah, yeah. And listen, I feel like I'm proud of how I've done. Bought a house in LA, that's hard to do, but it's like the smallest house in LA. And that's just the reality of it. I'm never gonna have a huge house doing what I do type of thing, but I think you have to love it.

But I think the one thing I will say is as I've like grown a different, the celebrity pro athlete thing is an interesting thing because I do think that there's a perceived expertise that comes from that, whether or not there should be. It's definitely helped me. Like I won't say it has. It's like social, it's like authority or social proof. I mean, I'll, you know, I do the same workouts with everyone, but like, if, if the person's famous, like the average person thinks I'm a better trainer. Just, I think that's how it is. But, um, I was training the dude,

uh, one of my first, like really big celebrity clients, we went at the first time I went to an event, I was with him and his wife and he was introducing me to someone so I could talk to other people so I didn't have to like puppy dog around. And he was like, dude, Ben is the best trainer. The dude like corrects my form. And it was interesting because I like to hear why clients like me because I think trainers think it's like because I prioritize single leg work instead of like bilateral work, but

it's not that. And then he was like, he was like, he corrects my form and he's just like so good about like correcting the form. And I just thought like, that's it? This whole time I've been training one of the really, really famous guy. I'm just like, that is such a low bar, if that's all you have to do. And so in the workout, I was like, the next workout, I was like, like not for nothing, man, but like that, like that's it.

And he was like, yeah, man, the last guy just like wanted to be my boy. So he asked me what I wanted to do at the start of the workout. And I never knew like, cause you're the workout and I never knew like cuz you're the trainer And he didn't want to correct his foot And I just thought like man if you just as a trainer if you just are ethical you don't overcharge people You correct their technique and you're nice That sets you apart from like 98 percent of the trainers and it's really not that high of a bar Yeah, dude. I have I have such a fun, you just reminded me of such a funny story.

One of my longest clients, I had her for nine years at the time and, uh, she's trainer, she trainer three days plus a week, every week, inconsistent, never missed. And I remember it was like year eight or nine. I had never asked her like, you know, what is, what is it that keeps you coming back? Like why we've done everything we could possibly do in here. You know how to do this. She even had taken her national certification. So why me?

Why? Why? She goes, you know, I just like the way you pay attention to my form and the way you count everything, eight years of everything I've taught. Like that's what I got was the way I paid attention to her form and the way I counted was like, well, I'll tell you this again, when you, I think in the trainer world, when you have high end clients, trainers think like you this. Again, I think in the trainer world, when you have high-end clients,

trainers think like you've made it, but we're all service workers. Doesn't matter who your client is. Like, I work for them, and to be honest, when you have demanding clients, you're probably more of a service, I'm at the beck and call of a lot of people. And I take a lot of pride in my program design

and this and that, and one of the women I've trained forever was just telling her friend, like, he's really good. He kind of bends over backwards from my schedule. And I was like, all this other shit goes right out the window if you're the type that's like too good to work on Sundays. I'm still, I don't know if you guys had to deal with the back and forth of me being here, but it's tricky for me to do with this,

because I'm a lot of people's bitch. You know, like it's, you know, like, my clients don't, like, to me this is really cool, it's an honor that you guys had me here It's not to them. So it's really just like I'd pick a day. I wasn't working. Yeah, it's what you say that It just being honest. Yeah, dude cuz well, I was training one of one of my clients you know was one of those high performers executives and You know a lot of times I would sit outside her house

Waiting to train and I wouldn't be able to train her that day because the meeting went too long. And you just feel like, man, I'm so useless. Like, what am I doing here? And I have all this. But it's just one of those things. You got to be flexible and they know that you're there and this is accountability and they value that.

I think what the root underneath what you were saying, he watches my form, he counts well, he watches my form, he counts well, he's real flexible, is I think what they find and value the most, because what's underneath all of that, beyond the, okay, we're gonna get to this, because Ben, you're very humble, but you know exercise and program design. You know strength training.

You've trained under some of the best strength coaches in the world, and we'll get to that. But I think what these clients are saying is, they're present, they pay attention to me, and they make it seem like my time is valuable. I forget what book it is, but there's that quote about nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

It's his favorite quote. That's so true. And I will say, you know, I've been a trainer 19 years, every single session I've ever done, the next day they get a text, how you feeling? And my long-term clients, I get ghosted probably 75% of the time. Just say that.

Because they're gonna see, but I always want them to know that. You care. I just care about the training. And I really think like the way so many trainers, I do Q&As on my Instagram sometimes, and I do that because doing social media as a trainer is sort of tricky, like when you've been doing it

for a long time, because I'm like, I don't really know what people wanna know, you know? Like, I don't really know, and so I just ask. And I'll do these Q&As, and a lot of times, trainers are, it's all about my clientele. How do you kind of tap into that network? And I just have no great answer except, if you just treat every single client

like they're that ideal client, like I think you just work your way towards that. And I think with that comes a follow-up text every day, how you feeling? And I just want them to know follow-up text every day, how you feeling? And I just want them to know that I care. I explain to them in the beginning, I'm gonna text you not, cause I'm like annoying,

but if too much time goes by, you'll forget. But I like knowing if you're sore, where you're sore, if anything hurts. Cause then I can immediately go back to what we did the day before and maybe tweak it. You know, if you're, if somebody's quads are smoked to oblivion, I like, you know, it's going to be very obvious what we did the day before that caused that. And so I just ask. And at this point, I don't even get an answer a lot of times, but I still check because I don't want people to ever take for granted. I I'm under no false illusions. Most trainers would give up their whole book

of clients to train some of my people and I don't take that for granted. So I want them to know that, you know, no longer, no matter how long we've been doing this, I appreciate you. And I just, you know, none of this, some of them were friends with, you know, some of my clients were in my wedding party, but I still hit them after every workout to be like, just so you know, like I still care as much about this workout as I did on day one. And when I stopped doing that, I'm a bad trainer. This is so important. I remember a client communicating to their friend

one of the things they liked about coming to my gym. And what it was, what they said was, so I had this experience as a teenager, I'll never forget, we had a friend who owned a restaurant, small Italian restaurant, it's over here in Campbell. And when you would walk in, when anybody would walk in, he worked every day, he worked there all the time, he would yell across the restaurant

and greet whoever was coming in. Eventually he learned people's names. He'd say their name, he'd sit down with them for a little bit, sometimes he'd have a drink with them. But it made the environment so, so when I had my studio, that's what I did. Anybody who walked in, whether they were with me or with another client, I'd yell their name across the gym

as they walked in, and that's what she said to her friend. Oh, everybody that walks in, he knows their name. And we're a small studio, of course I know everybody. It's like, well how many, 15 people coming in here. But it made them feel so welcome and important. And then what that did, and I didn't realize this is part of what it did, is it created for them, or helped them develop this relationship with fitness.

Because that's the hardest thing. People don't, they never develop a good relationship with fitness where they want to do it for the rest of their life. Unless you're a fitness fanatic, the average person struggles with being consistent. They never developed that relationship, and that's part of what it did. So what you're talking about is so important,

that making people feel always, like their time is so important, and that you really care. And part of that is just watching their form and correcting their technique. Well it's funny because now when my famous clients, if they have a movie premiere, I always go. And I think, I bet there's a lot of people

that just think I'm like a star fucker that I'm just here to go. But I can tell you that before I moved to LA I used to train a high school hockey team and I have spent more nights in a cold ass hockey arena watching these kids high school hockey games in more random towns. It's just what I do.

It's like I used to go to the cookouts. I used to do everything and to me I just like people knowing I'm in this. I care about what you're doing. I like seeing when we're training in the gym, I like going to your game. And I don't care if that game is the NBA Finals or like a high school hockey game. Like we train for that, I'm showing up.

And that's just what I, and you know, it might, as my clientele changes, it might seem like I'm just like this star fucker dude, but like that's just how I've always trained. It's like I've just like this star fucker dude, but like that's just how I've always trained. It's like I've I Been to more high school games First, you know someone without kids and probably anyone I don't you know, I don't think that it's just what I've done forever I don't so it's like if we're training for a movie

I'm sure shit watching that movie and I'm gonna send you a text about that and you know, they're telling the movie sucked to send you a text about that and you know. You ever tell them the movie sucked? I do have a funny story. I, when I first moved here, cause I don't, my TV stays on ESPN to be honest. I'm like a sports guy. And so the, the celebrity world is like, uh, you know, I know the people I train and you know, I've been in that world a little bit now. When I first started, I was training this woman who was either a producer or a director.

I still get them confused. I was talking about a hypothetical situation. She talked about how she worked with Liam Neeson on a movie. And I was saying how Liam Neeson from Taken is one of the most badass movie characters of all time. And I posed a hypothetical in the gym. It was a gym with like three or four trainers. So we would all talk and all the clients and stuff. And I was like, Jack Bauer from 24, Liam Neeson from Taken, and Jason Bourne from Bourne

are in a room. Who's coming out of the room? like who's the last man standing and I said like Liam Neeson, but He fucking sucked in that movie the gray, but other than that he was a badass and she was like I produced the gray And I was just like go alright. I learned do not like, all right, I learned do not speak out of, you know, like, it just kind of, like, anyway, like you still got four lunges. Whoops. Next exercise.

Yeah. Oh my God, dude. I think everybody has like an embarrassing moment where they've done something like that. You know, you have something in common with another one of our friends. I think it is really cool so Got it. I have a ton obviously we all have a ton of trainer friends and know a lot of people and I know I Actually know a lot of people too who have trained pro athletes and celebrities But there's two people in particular you being one of them Don Saladino being the other that have trained more

A-list actors and actresses that he's a friend of mine Yeah, anybody else on and I have you have very you both have very, and you're actually the way you are around too. Like, so the people I've known other trainers and they've got the opportunity to train like maybe one celebrity, that fucking celebrity is all over their Instagram, every opportunity they can, they're dick riding that person and touting, they train that person. The two of you, people listening right now, have no idea how many celebrities and people you guys have actually trained.

And you guys aren't like that. You're not a star fucker. You're not like that. Well, I usually let clients lead with social media. Some people like it and some don't. And I'm cool either way. That's how Don communicated. He's like, man, a lot of these people,

they get all the limelight and attention and photos also he's like so the last thing I want to do Is make them feel like that when they come to my facility where I'm like, let's get a picture together like how great it's just Like work for me Yeah for me. It's just I don't know if I have like a hard fast rule in my head But I basically let them lead some people like to share what they're doing. They're proud of it they worked hard for it. And I always like sharing because a lot of those type of people you wouldn't expect to be as strong as they are. And I train in a one-car garage. It sucks. It's like a small gym. So the kind of people that are going to train with me are fitness-minded people. I'm really lucky. I don't have to do a lot of motivating.

My people work out consistently. I told you, I have a lot of long-term clients now, so I text them workouts when they're on the road. And truthfully, you know, I, do you guys know Eric Cressy? Yeah. I love Eric. He's like one of my long-term friends,

but I had, I've trained Kate up then forever and she lives in the town where his gym is in Florida. And I was for a while, she was just going into his gym and I was texting her workouts and the trainers were like, dude, she like acts like a trainer. She goes in, she does her stuff, does good technique and gets out. And I was like, I felt good about that. You know, like I think, you know, good about that. I think that's cool, when they can just do things on their own and do it well. Long term clients, it's an interesting thing with those type because I travel with clients.

And I always feel, I do it less now, but I used to do a lot of traveling. When I'm in a hotel gym or a private gym, it's an interesting thing when I'm in there with my clients because I don't really talk that much about the workout when I'm with people. It's in the confines of our garage or at their house, it's fine. But when I'm with like, I've done a lot of traveling with Justin Timberlake and he is, he lives with NBA guys and holds his own. He's very athletic. And there's been a lot of times, I actually used to take him at Don's gym.

And this is before I knew Don well. And I would feel pressure training people like that in a public gym because people watch you, and mostly for him, but then the trainers know me, and I feel like they expect me to be coaching. So there's times that I would feel the need, if somebody's just doing a really good squat, that I feel the need to like put my hands on my knees

and bend down like I'm watching, and say chest up, even though their chest is up, and they're doing it right. And truthfully, like if you've done a good job on the back end, there's really nothing to say. Like if you have to continually coach it, you're probably not coaching it that well. So there's a lot of, there's probably, I bet there's 50 trainers around the world

that are like, man, I watched Ben train like an A-list person in some gym and that motherfucker didn't say a word. And I'd be like, yeah, but did they do it well? Like they did it well. Like there's nothing to say. And I think that, you know, like if you're truly secure, like they're doing it well like there's nothing to say. And I think that, you know, like if you're truly secure, like they're doing it well, there's nothing to say. The only time there's, you know, we'll talk about sports,

we'll do different things. And there's actually a lot of trainers that I would, you know, online people are like, you can't be on your phone during the workout. And I'm like, I don't know, I am all the time. My own workouts, as a trainer, I'm texting other I don't know, I am all the time. My own workouts, as a trainer, I'm texting other clients between my sets, I'm doing all kind of scheduling between my sets,

I'm replying to your girl about coming here between my sets, because that's, when else am I gonna do it? And like, you know, I believe, you know, if you're training hard, you rest like two, three minutes between a set, you don't have to just sit there. Like, so you could go on your phone for like two, three minutes between a set. You don't have to just sit there. So you could go on your phone

for those two to three minutes. So I say that to say with my clients, I've probably had a lot of people watching going like, this guy's a fraud, because they were watching a fucking YouTube video between the sets. And I'd be like, yeah man, because we've been training for 10 years.

There's only so much to talk about. The people that I train consistently, it's like you talk about... If we become friends and I haven't seen you for five years, it's like, hey, what have you been up to? You're like, ah, same shit, just work. If I see you daily, it's like, okay, so yesterday I had this for breakfast, this for lunch, this is what I watched on TV, this is what I had for dinner. You're just killing the hour.

So I think that as a trainer, it's important to like, you don't have to over-coach. They already know what they're doing. So a big part of what I do now, if you want with my long-term clients is like, I give them like one shitty demo just to remind them which one we're doing and then I say six reps and then we just talk about life.

You know, because how much is there really, I realized with Chelsea Handler, she just had her 50th birthday and I did this birthday post and I went back and checked our invoices. We've done over 2,000 sessions. It's a lot of personal training sessions. Wow, 2,000 for one person? 2,000, over 2, 2000 over to definitely have not done that 2000 for one person cheat, you know, she's somebody that Trains like four to six seven days a week come hell or high water

She just you know, and it's not like everyone's not like anything. It's not like you know It we're not going to hell and back every day. You might you know how to modulate, but she likes to train. So how much can I really say this about the ex? She does everything well. What do you get? Just kind of shut up and just give a program and talk about life. Yeah, yeah.

You've earned that right too. You've earned the right with that relationship to be able to do that. I think that that's something that, you know, I remember that with my clients that were with me five, six, seven years versus my relationship with the client who I'm... Well, you just have to have some feel.

In the beginning, if they're doing it wrong and you're not saying anything, they're going to think you suck. But, like, imagine, like, if we go lift after this and, you know, you were doing the exercise right how annoyed would you be if I'm like make sure to like keep your chest up meanwhile you're like shut up dude like I'm doing it right like just fall back it's not that lifting weights is like besides like there's some athletic based moves but most most

strength training exercises require very little athleticism. So it's like a little bit of coaching, tweak a couple things, and then you're good. How did you... Okay, so one of the things that was so interesting to me when we met Don and I asked him about... Because another misconception with celebrities is people think, like, oh, you train celebrities, you must get paid hell of money for these. Like, you really don't make much more money than you train average people. And more often than not, you're probably working harder because you're at their beck and call.

So he had a thing that he did that I had never heard of this that I thought was fascinating. I don't know if you even know this about the way he's done it. He'd tell me that some of his celebrity clients, he would even tell them like, oh, don't worry about, give me next time or give me later. And he'd almost put it on them to decide what to pay them. Do you do, and how do you decide when you're traveling with someone? Do you charge additional? Do they cover your traveling fees?

How do you figure all that out as a business? I think if I were like, I'm the bad guy to ask about business because I'm probably, I'm an idiot with business. I said I only have one skill, it's the training. But I feel like if you just do right by people, in almost everything I've done with my career and with each client relationship,

I just think I play the long game, if that makes sense. I'm not gonna nickel and dime somebody over, but I also have a business and want to have a good life. So I think you just kind of balance it out and I think I, everybody's things a little different, you know, like Don used to have trainers at his gym as it's, so that's a totally different thing. I don't. So when I first started, people pay one of two ways. They either just pay by the session and I bill them like every 10 or 20 sessions,

like not like formal, or I used to, not anymore, but I think a lot of trainers actually would really benefit from this, but I used to do a retainer thing. And that really changed my life, because for a while I had a very singular focus to save for a house. So I, and then it's an interesting thing as a trainer

when you're trading time for money. Now I do a little bit of online stuff, but to this day, it's 2025, the most money I ever made as a trainer is 2018. And then it was downhill since then. The most money I ever made as a trainer is 2018. It was downhill since then. 2016, then 17, then 18. But it was because I was a period in my life that I worked seven days a week for the whole year.

I never took vacations. And I traveled a lot, and I make a little bit more when I travel versus when I'm here with clients. And so that was cool, but then you're like, oh, now I'm like married if I go somewhere on a Saturday. Like I just can't replicate what I did in 2018. Because when I say I lived in a rent in LA is expensive but I lived in this really nice older couple's back house forever, just a studio back house.

It was the cheapest rent I could find and I just basically worked all day every day just stacking my money and trying to save. Then you can only do that so long before you're like, oh, I went on a vacation this year. I can't make as much as last year because I never did that. So that's why I did the online thing because I was like, I'm actually moving in a bad direction money-wise.

I'm not that, I should always try to be doing better. Yeah, yeah. But in terms of the client thing, when I travel with clients, yeah, you get a day rate, which is like You're not trying to gouge anyone over the head but not trying to lose money Yeah Cuz you have to factor in if you take off with Justin Timberlake for three days on a trip You could have been training a full book of clients for two days

but I also it's like, you know, every client would, I give away a lot of free training, to be honest, either because, you know, I still do my own invoicing and I'm an idiot, so like if I get too far behind, I'll eat it sometimes. If I did something stupid. I always feel like the benefit of the doubt goes to the client, but that probably pays me way more in the long run, you know? Yeah. You know, like I've, like the benefit of the doubt goes to the client, but that probably pays me way more in the long run.

You know? Yeah. You know, like I've like, there's times like, um, I, I, you know, got a client, a skier that they wanted and I just put it on my card and then enough time went by that I'm like, do I really, they paid me a lot of money over the last 10 years. Like, I think I'm just going to eat the thousand bucks on the skier. You know, that's a gift that they never even knew I got them type of thing.

Like they probably assumed they bought it, but I think it's a better thing to, you know, I've had great mentors and I've had some people that I've, you know, learned what not to do. But I think that the business thing is like, if you just do right by people and play the long game, it's like way better than trying to squeeze out a thousand bucks here and then burn in a bridge.

You said it, it's a service mentality. Service mentality. Who are some of the mentors that have impacted you positively the most? Mike Boyle and a guy that works with Mike Boyle named Steve Bunker. And you actually like, how did he mentor you work for him? Yeah. So, uh, well, do we have a time limit on this?

I can talk forever. No, we'll tell you when we're done. I, uh, when I was in college, I, um, I didn't know what I wanted to do in college, so I just started interning in finance. I also had a back surgery, I was telling you guys off here, but I had a back surgery my sophomore year of college that did nerve damage in my right leg. I took a two-year medical leave. When I got back into it, I started training and

I Was actually telling you your guys out your interns out there I'm 39 when I was in high school No sports other than football lifted weights like I never lifted like and so it's a pretty new field like, you know people act like And so it's a pretty new field. Like, you know, people act like, one thing that's funny about the internet to me is like the science-based crowd that acts like exercise science is the same kind of science as like biology or chemistry and I'm like, it's definitely not.

It's pretty new and it changes like every month. You know, the recent, so I never lifted weights in high school, but when I was rehabbing my back I started and I learned that from my finance internship that I hated finance and kind of took a bit of a circuitous path to being a trainer because the dude that I was interning for had two sons that played football and he connected me to their trainer who hired me as a trainer just because I knew this guy. So I parlayed a finance internship into a job as a trainer.

And that was like 2000, remember the 2008 housing crisis. So what happened was right before I started that job, the dude told me that his cousin had got laid off so he couldn't work with me anymore. And you know, life works in mysterious ways, but his gym, the logo was the skull and crossbones and it was like one of those cross-fittish gyms that just, you know, you beat the fuck out of a tire with a sledgehammer. And I was at that stage in life where I just wanted to beat the fuck out of a tire with a sledgehammer, so I was pumped. And then I kind of got fired before I ever got hired.

And I was super bummed and went back to my mom's house because I'd spent the last six months of college thinking I had a job, so I did no networking. So, and also, I still don't think people do, but people then definitely didn't think of training as a real job. So when I told people my last couple months of college that I was gonna be a trainer, it was like, what went wrong with you? Like, we thought you were gonna be something with your life and you're gonna be a trainer. And so when I lost that job, I was thinking like, I guess I might have to get a real job now. So I went back to my mom's house and I was just like applying to like dumb jobs. And then I read a T Nation article written by Mike Boyle, clicked through his bio and was like,

oh, this dude's gym is 40 minutes from my mom's house. So I just printed off a resume and went to the gym wearing like a golf shirt and golf shorts. I'm like, I don't know what you do to apply for a trainer job, but I just went in golf clothes and gave this resume and was like, look, like I'm a sociology major. Like I don't really have any ostensible qualifications, but I love training. resume and was like, look, I'm a sociology major. I don't really have any ostensible qualifications, but I love training.

It's all I've thought about for the last two years, and I'll mop the floors if you let me hang, basically. He was like, you want to start tomorrow? That's just what I did. I did an internship for four or five months, and then worked there for like four years and working there's, I mean so. What a gift, I'm gonna bring places to learn. I know, so cool, at that point you have no idea really how like.

Well, so the gym is called Mike Boyle Strength and Conditioning. Mike, you know, it's not hyperbole to say he's changed my life. He was officiated my wedding, that's how highly I think of Mike. But there's two gyms at Mike Boyle Strength and Conditioning to say he's changed my life. He was officiated my wedding. That's how highly I think of Mike. There's two gyms at Mike Boyle Strength and Conditioning, and I worked at the one that Mike was at less. The guy that ran that gym was a guy named Steve Bunker. My dad died when I was nine.

If I told you who's the person in life that's closest to a dad, it would be Steve Bunker. He's an amazing trainer that just doesn't use the internet. So people don't know who he is, but he's a better trainer than 99.9% of the trainers on the internet. He just doesn't do it. And so I learned a lot from Mike and Steve.

And I liken that experience to learning a language by just going abroad and like immersion in a sense of, you know, that's the best way to learn as a train. That's the thing. It's like I took, so when I was in school, I took Spanish for six years, but I took Spanish, but it was like, you know, you cheat on your homework. You'd like memorize for the T you like, just cheat to get by. And I didn't know much Spanish. And then the summer between high school and college, I went to Spain for six weeks by myself and was fluent

by the end because you have no other choice. And I think learning at a place like MBSC, Mike Boyle Strength and Conditioning, they see 400 people a day in the summer. And so by my first year of training, I trained groups of nine-year-old kids, which is basically babysitting. I trained a blind guy, I trained pro athletes, I trained men and women of every single age. I trained a dude that was 600 pounds.

This is all within one year of training. I just trained a lot of people. And I think that those sort of times, that's like the stage I think a lot of the internet people miss because, you know, but there's really, that's the best way to get good. Just train everyone. And I think that with my kind of clients now, I think what separates really good trainers is just people can tell you an injury or something that happened or they went for a hike

that you didn't know they were gonna do and you just adjust on the fly. I think being able to adjust on the fly and exude confidence while you do it, you can train anyone. And I got that just from training so many different kind of people. Because in the beginning, it's pretty stressful when somebody tells you that they have MS

or something, and in your head, you're like, I don't fucking know what to do. I got to go Google this, but for the next hour, I got to pretend like I know what to do. So you're just kind of playing it safe, but thinking like, I hope I don't do something, you know, with different, I've had so many times as a trainer, where for that first hour, that like an issue got downloaded to me,

I have no clue what to do for that issue. I didn't even know that issue was an issue. And then you just kind of give them safe stuff and then just go learn as much as you can. Call some people, read about it, and just get better. And when you do that long enough, then I would tell you, because I've never had a niche or a niche or whatever it is.

Most trainers that I know have kind of their thing, but I've been a generalist since I started. My youngest client's 13, my oldest is 75. I have men, women, athletes, non-athletes. I like that. I understand the niche thing. Some people say it's good for business, which I actually don't understand because I think as a generalist, just about anyone is a potential client in the sense of I

Think fitness is one of those things that almost anyone Either does or intuitively thinks they they need to do. You know, it's kind of for everyone for in different doses But fitness and fitness is getting for anybody Yeah, I just think getting in front of as many people as in the beginning, just train everyone. I train my mom's friends for free. I train everyone for free because the only way to get clients is from your clients. It's like, you know, there's all these,

you know, I'm preaching to the choir with you guys so I don't want you to think I'm preaching, but like every single successful trainer that I know, with a period at the end, they don't do these funnels or anything to get clients, they don't do these anything. It's just word of mouth from your other clients. It's it. We just did a course, Ben.

We just finished filming a course for trainers, because we just moved into trying to educate coaches and trainers and we took us a long time to get here because we respect trainers so much. Like we want to do a good job. We literally just did a course on how to build your business without social media. It's because everybody forgot that that's how you build

your business. I would say the three trainers over the years that have helped me the most are Mike Boyle, Steve Bunker, who works with Mike Boyle, and a friend of mine named Peter Park who runs a gym in Santa Barbara. And he used to come to LA, but Peter, Peter has the craziest clientele you've ever seen. And, you know, he doesn't do social media. So, uh, nobody, you know, like you guys wouldn't even know about him, but we've shared some of the biggest,

and he trains like literally some of the biggest clients in the world, and he just doesn't do social media. So I would, and the busiest in-person trainer I know. So that's why I laugh a lot at like the tactics that I see about how to get clients, because I'm like, any, truly any, I bet if you ask Don, your clients just send you people here and there,

and I think it's mainly client retention, so if you don't lose clients, you don't really have to ever get too many. You just keep your current clients, and every once in a while, they tell a friend, and then you get a new one, and then you don't lose them, and you just kind of just build like that.

It's one of those things that. The business is not like a secret hack. No, it's not a secret hack, but the downside to that though is it's one of those simple but not easy. It's hard to, you know, I, you know that saying, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life? Yeah.

I think about that a lot the longer I train, because I deal with burnout all the time. And I think any trainer that's honest probably does too. Of course. For shitty hours, it's like, it's a thing that I can read all the self-help books in the world about not taking things personal,

but when clients cancel, I take it personal. Even though I know it's not, that type of thing. It's hard to just show up day in and day out. It's a hard job. I think being a trainer is a tough job when you're going through personal stuff because. You can't give it to them. You gotta be on, always.

Yeah, you can't give it to them. It's like, I learned early on, I don't know who said it, but it's like, as a trainer, you can only have it to them. You gotta be on, always. Yeah, you can't give it to them. It's like, you know, I learned early on, I don't know who said it, but it's like, as a trainer, you can only have good days and great days, and that's really hard when you're not having a good day. And so there's been a lot of times that I've felt like I'm acting for a pretty prolonged period, because it's hard to, you know, I'm somebody,

I think we all are, but I'm prone to feeling depressed at times and this and that. I think it's hard to keep showing up in a job like training when there's not an immediate payoff. Just like, I hope this pays off. You have to love fitness, but you have to really love people. Totally. If you don't really love people, it's the worst job in the world.

Well, I would tell you, actually, I think most dudes get into training because they like to train and they think it's a way to be in the gym. Yeah, but then you deal with people. That's why those trainers suck. Dude, I think being a trainer is one of the worst jobs for your workouts in the sense of, you know, I train at all the times, nobody wants to train because at those times I'm training people and I'm on my feet all day. It's really hard to muster up, you know,

doing a really hard leg workout when you've been on your feet for 10 hours, you know that it's, you know, in the gym all day long, I would work out at different gyms cause I don't want to be here. It's my work. Dude, if I wanted to get jacked, I just get a desk job and just set schedule and just lift before or after work. And that would be best.

That's funny to think that way. You know, you just, just rest the rest of the day, just get off your feet. You know, it's like, uh, that's what I would do. But I think you, that's why I say you have to like the actual being a coach. And, and, uh, I say coach, cause I think there's, it's not too dissimilar being a fitness coach or a football coach or a basketball coach. I think you have to figure out what makes people tick and how to help them. You know, the one, a couple things of comment on that you said that I think is an interesting conversation, the niche conversation. I really think that's come from the internet. It is, it is from the internet.

That only benefits you when you're trying to create a sales funnel and you're trying to go out into the entire world and it's like, you need to go really deep on this topic. You don't want to go really broad and wide because it doesn't serve you for internet marketing. So I really think that's where that's come from. I actually never thought of that, but that makes sense. Yeah. Because the real world, because in the

real world, and if you train in gyms and people, you need to have the skills to train a seven year old and a 90 year old and everything in between, because that's what walks in the light. That's the people that's so it wouldn't serve you in the real world. And so I think that that's the other thing to your point about the, you know, you really don't have to market. And so what they've done, what, what's hard about what you said is it, it takes time to get good. That's what it, and everybody today wants it now.

Everybody wants to be a trainer tomorrow and tomorrow I want to train famous people and I want to make lots of money. And it's just like, well, you didn't mop floors for four months for somebody mentor underneath them for two years and then go to like That's the part that everybody wants to skip and just get right to where you're at and they're not willing to put the time into Well, I also don't think people realize what? Be what training a high-level clientele is it's one of the it probably sounds cooler than it is, but like, you know like when I Text with dawn or a Mike Boyle or Gunner Peterson,

they've been doing it longer than I have. And we still only, we only text before 5.30 AM. Like we're all just insane. You know what I mean? It's the same thing. It's like not, it's not this like crazy luxurious life. You're just, you're still a service, you know, like I think everyone knows

at like that does it for long enough. Like we're, it's a service job and it's a, it's not, there's really no cush training thing. It's like, you know, and I, and I also think, you know, like I remember when I met my wife, basically explaining like, yeah those holidays like Columbus Day like I'm busy like those don't exist for me those you know like Sundays like I'm busy like I work in people's free time just like so that's just so you know like a lot of those like 4th of July doesn't really apply to me because Pete when people are off work it's's only half time. And so my schedule kind of blows. But I think that everything's pros and cons.

I like the fact this is like his dress. I wore my dressy sweatpants to come to you guys. I wanted to be respectful. This is like, I mean, this is like, This is the fanciest it gets right here. This is damn tucks for me. What is your, okay, so because you've done such a cool broad, I mean, everything from high school athletes to famous actors and actresses and pro athletes, like, do you have

a favorite? Like, I mean, what gets you more excited? Is he like doing, watching, you know, Clay Thompson hit a PR, Iggy hit a PR with you or watching them play a game after you train them. Is that more exciting for you, or is it cooler training an actor or an actress, getting ready to do a big movie premiere? Like, what's your most favorite?

I really think anyone with a good attitude about training is fun to train. But it's an interesting thing. Training actors and professional athletes is very cool in the sense of, let me think of how to say this, sometimes people tell me that I don't seem phased by celebrity or talent and it's actually not true. I have the utmost respect for anyone that's really talented at what they do, doesn't matter.

I love the Olympics, the Summer and Winter Olympics, and I watch the random sports, because I just think like, if you're the best at what you do, that's really cool. Doesn't matter what it is. You know, I have, I don't let, you know, I'll listen to someone in a hotel play the piano really well and be like, whoa, because I've tried it and it's hard. Yeah.

You know, so I respect talent, but it, so, and it's very motivating to be around talent like that. And I think that it's changed me as a person because my second year in LA, my mom sent me a card for some event, but it said the one thing that all high-level musicians, athletes, actors had in common is they didn't start out that way. And I thought that was a really cool thing. Because I think that when you're, you know, I'm from a town of 800 people in New Hampshire, and sometimes I look at my network and my life and I'm like, yeah, that's crazy.

You know, I don't, um, I've had some crazy life experiences through training, you know, uh, Chelsea Handler got me as a guest on the Ellen show. I was literally like a guest. Like that shouldn't happen to a me, you know, and I'm under no false. That wasn't my own merit. It was just because I've trained Chelsea for a long time and she threw me a lob, you know? That's cool. So training's taken me to really cool life places.

But then the converse to that is pretty much all the people I've ever trained in LA, if I'm honest, were who they were before they met me. So I have a pet peeve. Having trained a lot of pro athletes now, I have a real pet peeve when private trainers will try to take credit for good athletes being good because I'm like, dude, they were really good before. Well before you. Yeah. And I do think training helps people. I think if you do it well, it makes you more resilient

and stuff like that, but I'm never gonna say that, you know, and with that, you know, a lot of, you know, I used to train a lot of the Victoria Secret girls before the show. They all looked the exact same before they came to me, if I'm just being dead honest. But they're good for business. You can get them in shape for a second.

I gave them a facility to keep working out. And I think I know what I'm doing, but I'm under no false illusions that I'm... You created it. Yeah, the great athletes that you see on my social media were great before I met him and So there's something you know, I used to train high school kids, you know, one of the one of the high school kids I trained his name is Jack Eichel. He's now one of the best players in the NFL in the NHL but I met him when he was 13 and Again, if he had gone to a different gym, he'd still be where he is But like I was it was cool to train him when he was a kid and then now see him

when I go to the game, half the places wearing his Jersey. And I'm like, man, like I remember loaning that kid money for Chipotle. That's so cool. Now, you know, and so there's a, uh, rewarding element to that with people. When you help them get to where they were. Whereas like most of the people I train now, I'm very clear not to try to take credit for their success because they were already successful. Any of them, or do you have one or maybe a couple that has made the biggest impact on you personally?

Man, a lot. Well, yeah on you personally man a lot I well, yeah a lot a lot and some some that they know some that they don't because I would say I Started this this app two years ago and it's just like workouts gen pop workouts And I thought about that for like ten years, but it took me a long time because I was training, you know, and then, but I think being surrounded by success and that card I told you about like how all these successful people started the commonalities that they weren't always like that.

There's kind of this thing of why not me when you're around people, like in the sense of everyone's got a story like that. Because for a while I always told myself, I had like a tough childhood, I think everyone's got a story, but for a lot of time I thought like I definitely don't deserve to be doing this. And then when you really dig behind the hood on a lot of people, they all have their story too and they're doing great things. And I think that most people hold themselves back

from achieving their full potential. So I think that just being surrounded, there's that thing of you're the sum of the five people you spend the most time with. And I've been very fortunate that You know my five is really Doing big things doing big things and I think that that makes you think bigger And you know that idea like you know when I said that I put clients on a on a monthly retainer That idea came from one of my really really wealthy business clients and that in

That idea came from one of my really, really wealthy business clients. When I talk about fortunate for me, he suggested a retainer even though it didn't work out to his benefit. He was wealthy enough that he saw me busting my ass and wanted to help me. He was like, dude, the clients that want to set time, you just got to them on a retainer so that when, and he was talking about him, he's like, every November and December, when I go to London to do the movie, that way you still get your money. And all these people, if you wanna lock them into a time,

and I thought, what a guy to suggest something that actually sucks for him to help me. I would've never thought of that. I'm not a business guy, but I learned that from him, and he's not in training, so that's awesome. Clients, especially when you have clients like you have that you've had for a really long time, also tend to be almost like family,

gift you with really cool things. Anyone who gifted you with something like that was so cool that caught you off guard or did something for you? I'm very, I mean, I'm very lucky. I will say a lot, you know, there's a lot of stuff, but I will tell you again life is not all you see on social media. I've had some struggles, but I My house got hit with a mudslide four days after I bought it. I spent forever trying to save for my down payment and was told, you know, and how,

I don't know shit about buying a house, but I was told, you know, that you'll need to build a retaining wall in the back or whatever. You know, four days after I bought it, we had the biggest rainstorm in 50 years, mudslide fucks on my house and I had to cancel a workout with JT to

Attend to the mudslide. I sent him a picture Next thing I know like 40 dudes are over there cleaning it up and I was like, hey man Like I don't know how to pay you like I don't know we can do this can do this in training. And he was just like, dude, it's your house. I've still never seen the bill. Well, that's sick. You know? That's a cool story. So that where you're like, you know,

that to me is stuff like, he probably actually wouldn't even want me to, you know, those, that's just stuff. Yeah, but that's what makes it so special too, though. That's what's even more special. And I think the people that do cool, like, he's probably never even told anyone that he did that. He he just you know, it wasn't even like a thing just did it That's a one of my favorite

I mean I'm a big sports nut like you are like one of my favorite athletes is Shaquille O'Neal and one of the reasons why he's one of My favorite is because I'm aware of a lot of the things he does that nobody else knows that he does like that Like when they do things for people and they don't want anything in return, they don't want the credit for it. Yeah, he was just like, dude, it's your house. Because when that happened, I was crying. And I was like, I just bought this, what did I do?

Devastating. All my money went into this down payment. And then I was like, so that was super cool. That's great. One thing that can be it was, that was super cool. That's great. One thing that can be frustrating sometimes, you see this rise, we've seen this rise of fitness people in social media who don't have experience training people, but they're good science people.

So they'll quote studies and give advice based off of studies. Like a good example is like lengthened partials great for hypertrophy. That one's not gonna age well. It's so funny when you're like things like lengthened partials they just don't even pass like the eye test. I'm sure there's I'm not gonna say it's it's like doesn't work but like if you showed that to like a gen pop client, they would look at you like your form's wrong.

It just doesn't look, you know, like, and I'm sure it's like equal in things, but it's weird. It's like, it's just a weird, that's the stuff I feel. That's where I feel like a curmudgeon kind of where I think I'm like, it's just a weird, that's the stuff. I feel, that's where I feel like a curmudgeon kind of, where I think, I'm like, you're trying to change something that doesn't really need to be changed, like in it's worse, you know? It's like, I, yeah, it's just, it's no better.

Yeah, or you know, it is frustrating because you'll see, for example, I'll give you another example. I don't remember how long the study was, but there was a study that showed, it was like a legs press versus a barbell hack squat. It was a short study. It was like six weeks and untrained individuals and the leg press built more muscle, therefore it's superior to a back squat.

Now I'm an experienced trainer. I'm like, it takes you at least three months to learn how to back squat properly. Leg press is a piece of cake for most people, but people just don't understand that. And so that can be very frustrating for me is when I see the science, Adam calls them science dorks, presenting fitness advice, having never trained anybody.

Maybe they're scientists, so they understand research, but they've never trained anybody, so they don't understand how this applies in the real world. It's really frustrating. Well, when I was in college, I, I can't tell you, they used to have all these, uh, flyers where you just rip off a thing and can join a study.

I, man, I was part of so many like psychology, this, that, cause it's like 25 bucks cash. I'm like, I'm just going to circle a on everything. Now it's like 25 bucks cash I'm like I'm so gonna circle a on everything now it's guys any lunch so I fucked up so many studies just hung over being like where's my money that's a study like that got published somewhere like I was part of that so but there's stuff where I- Well, so is truth to that. Yeah. Oh, that's who does the studies. And so I actually, I like science. I'm kind of nerdy with this stuff.

I don't think exercise science is a science in the same way that biology, physics, chemistry, anatomy, physiology is a science. There's a human element to it. And it's not pour this and pour this and you get that reaction because I can tell you that if you ask 10 dudes about a walking lunge, five might say it hurts their knee and five are fine. I don't know the science. Then the other shortcomings of exercise science, there's never going to be a study on high

level athletes, you'll never get a control group to just do something that might not work. Right. At a high level, or you'll never get, if you're going to test protein intake amongst like bodybuilders, what bodybuilder is going to agree to just like not eat protein for a while? Right. They just won't. So it's very limited in who these studies are being performed on. And they'll never be a control group.

I can tell you, I used to train mainly hockey and football players. And then I started in LA. I got into basketball. It's a whole new world when you're that tall. The gym's not built for you. When you go to do a dumbbell bench press, your head goes off the bench. You know, like I, I used to love, I still do for me, but I'm five nine.

I love like a landmine press as like kind of an intermediary between a bench press and an overhead press. To me, it's great. If you have shoulder problems, you can press on the landmine. I'll never forget. I was training Roy Hibbert. He was like 7'3". And I asked him to do the landmine press. And it wasn't, he was like pressing this way. Like there's no gravity. And I'm like, I could have put 400 pounds on the bar and it would have been the same. He's literally, there's no gravity. And I thought, oh, that's a shitty exercise when you're seven, three. But I would have never known that. Right, right. If I didn't try it on a guy that was seven, three, you don't know.

And there's stuff, you know, really tall guys can almost never lap pull down at a normal gym because their arms are like this. When they, and they set up, okay, so that's a shitty exercise. Like, there's no study for that. You just like, no, like that didn't work. They're too tall. You know, if you've ever, the funniest thing you could ever see is trying to watch a guy that's seven feet do the concept two rower.

Cause at the end, their legs are still bent like where most people start. It ain't for them. You know, you can't learn that except I can only tell you that because I've tried it. And then I was like, yep, we're going to do something different. I don't know. I see we can learn things. And I think it's funny because science dorks or whatever you call it talk about confirmation bias. And I'm like, that's all I want.

Like I've been doing this. There's a lot of stuff that I know works. You just don't have to study to support it. For example, like we do, I'm a very'm a very very I love we do leg curls on the slide board you know what I'm talking about so you you know you're on your back you curl your legs in right and and I love it I've done it for a long time I'm somebody that has lower back and knee problems so it's a very lower back and knee friendly way to smoke your hamstrings and we do it every

which way we load it with bands and. I've lifted for a really long time but it's it's a knee flexion based hamstring exercise but the glutes have to be in cage. So it's in the same category. I like them on a physio ball. I used to do them on a physio ball. The only difference, so the physio ball, even when you go one leg, it's not that hard. So the slide board you can make it very hard. There's more friction. We load a bar at the hips. We put a band at the heels.

So you can make it. You can progress it. You can make it very hard. We've done that forever. I remember somebody saying to me, do you have any studies on that? And I'm like, to my knowledge, nobody else is doing this. So no, there's not a study, but do it.

And it's in the same category, for example, to my knowledge nobody else is doing this so no like there's not a study but do it and It's in the same category for example as a Nordic leg curl where you drive. I don't love Nordics for most people because they're You know, I don't care if you like your face, but they're really they're really hard really most people free fall You know, so it's hard to like quantify progress when you free. And they also create an extreme amount of soreness. So I think if you're planning to do anything athletic in the two or three days after a Nordic, you're probably more prone to it like an injury. Even though there's a lot of studies saying that they're good for injury prevention, it's a lot of soreness. So all these people were saying, and I've been saying for a long time, I think that

these slideboard leg curls when you progress them are similar but better because they don't create this. And I can say that because I've done them for a long time with a lot of people and I'm one of the few people, I can do like five or six Nordic leg curls with my hands behind my back. I think I deserve an opinion on this, at least. And I don't care if there's no studies on this.

I've done both, and I can tell you that you can make the slideboard leg curl every bit as hard, because I've done both. I'm not some dude that like shits on an exercise just because I suck at it. There's some, there's a lot of moves that I, you know, I'm, I'm a smaller guy. So I think a lot of the shit in the gym is easier for me than some people.

So there's, you know, I will tell you that I don't love Nordic leg curls, even as somebody who can do them really well, like I don't, you know, but I really well. But I've trained a lot of people and almost nobody else can. I'm kind of short, stocky, I'm not that heavy, so a lot of that stuff is like... During the time that you've been training people and even for us, there's been the rise of an exercise that went from total obscurity to everyone does it, especially women, the hip thrust. Barbell hip thrust.

Do you think that's an overrated exercise? Do you like it? Who's it good for? And I'm purely saying this to get views right now, because I know they're going to clip this, but I'd love to hear your opinion on the hip thrust. Well, so I will say I've been friends with Brett Contreras since before anyone knew either of us.

He's great, we're fine, we love him. Yeah, I knew Brett when he was still a high school math teacher. Did you really, before he got into fitness? Yeah, well we connected right when, cause he did both for a while. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, but I've known Brett for a long time.

We've talked about this a lot. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But I've known Brett for a long time. We've talked about this a lot. I like hip thrusts a lot, but we don't do them in the same way he does. Because I think every trainer has their biases. Everything that I come at, for better or worse, my mom is just saying we're all products of our experiences.

I started training after a very serious lower back surgery. So I have found with myself that I don't like going super heavy on them. It's just a thing. Like it hurts my hips. I look at people and I just think maybe I'm a pussy because if I do 315 with an AirX pad, it feels like it's breaking this whole situation.

I don't understand when I see people go heavier. I'm like, maybe I'm just soft, but I don't like it. Everyone does some sort of bridging. I feel like there's a continuum. I train in my garage, so I don't have like a hip thrust machine. I think that would make it a lot easier, but we do it with a bit of pain. So, um, I, we do tons of single leg hip thrusts. That's kind of like what I usually do is progress people to

start. We start on a bilateral hip thrust until it gets either cumbersome or uncomfortable and then we go to a single leg hip thrust. And one thing, Brett actually posted me, I do the single leg with like 275, like a lot of weight. I don't think most people do the single leg that hard, that heavy. Most people do like light weights, but I do, I can do the single leg pretty heavy,

but I just like it because I don't have to load as heavy and it's a quicker setup and stuff. But we do, we do hip thrust like in all forms. Like actually, Brett had me on his blog. A lot of the variations he has like we've, like I actually thought of after talking to Brett. The true just like heavy bilateral one, we only really do in the beginning.

And then once it gets to a point of like, yeah, cumbersome or uncomfortable, we switch, but we do them every which way. So we do single leg hip thrust, we do staggered stance, which is kind of an intermediate, like the internet calls it B-stance, I don't know why. B-stance makes no sense. Really? Staggered stance makes sense. Yeah, staggered stance makes sense,

but people, you see every, there's a lot of B-stance stuff, and I don't even know if it's staggered stance. Okay. Yeah. I call it staggered stance, but we do that. We do stuff like, um, where we'll come up on two legs, go down on one.

Yeah. Um, I put the slide board leg curls that we do in the bridging category because you're performing a knee flexion hamstring exercise, but the glutes are engaged the whole time. So I coach it, the way I coach slide board leg curls is straight line from your shoulder to your knee the whole set. So that's a bridge.

So yeah, we kind of do them every which way, but this actually brings up a good point because I think within the fitness world, there's just so many factions. And I think a lot of the internet arguments come from people having a different context. So for example, like I don't have a single female client that would like hang in Brett's gym.

They're way stronger But it's a different type of physique goals to write, you know He gets all the girls that want giant Instagram booty and so like, you know So for example, and I say that like I go back to beauties in the eye of the beholder. So You know, I'm five nine 170 pounds My goal physique to be honest, like I filled my I feel like I look my best when I'm like 163 pounds, but I just don't have like the dietary discipline to stay there.

I like sweets too much. So I'm like 170 and then, but I got like at 170, I have like lower ab fat and some love handles, but like my ideal is like 163. I like being thin. That's just, you know, if I told you, like I look at a rip surfer and I'd rather have that than be a bodybuilder. It's just my thing. So when I look at some of the stuff that bodybuilders do, I'm like, good on you, but I don't want to do that. And there's nothing either in, I think the same thing goes for girls

that do the physique stuff. It's very different than the girls that just want to be thin and toned. And so we're all drawing, like a lot of the criticism that I get online comes from bodybuilders, power lifters, and I'm like, I'm not talking about you. What are they saying? You like just a pack on mass. Yeah that type of thing like that or that. Yeah, like That basically like I don't I don't like to like stir it up but like you guys know Mike is root teller Yeah, I can't stand him to be honest I don't I don't actually know him, but I literally,

I found out this guy existed two or three years ago because he blasted me on YouTube. He has this series about, he just shits on all these celebrity workouts. And so he shit on one of my clients and in turn me. But it's like, to me it was kind of everything that's wrong about fitness because dude's a bodybuilder that has in my mind my true worst nightmare physique.

I'd rather have a dad bod than look like this guy, but he's talking about how he's judging a comedian's workout, female comedian, that she was doing a single leg RDL and that's not ideal for hypertrophy. And I'm like, you can miss me with that shit, dude. She doesn't care. You know?

And like, it's just a dumb criticism. Yeah. And what you wouldn't know is that this woman at the time, her goal was knee stability for skiing. Which is a great exercise. You can't see that from a clip. So single leg RDL is a great exercise. So I just got blasted by a bunch of wannabe bodybuilders

and I'm like, I don't know how else to tell you. Like, I'm not for you, go somewhere else. But if you get, the way the internet is, you get a bunch of bodybuilders that are like, yeah, that's soft, like, you know, I'm not talking about you. It's the same, you know, I think with like bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman. I hate the word functional fitness, but that probably explains my training better than anything. Sports training, whatever.

They're all similar. We're all drawn from the same pool of moves, but it's different goals. And it dictate to me, it's like how we have tennis pickleball paddle ping-pong Volleyball all like all you know sports that are sort of similar But they're all different and so like if you know imagine if a tennis player Went to a ping-pong guy and was like, that racket's wrong.

They'd be like, not for ping pong, it's not. I don't use a tennis racket for ping pong, but I feel like that's a lot of the internet arguments is like people that are doing a different activity will just be like, that doesn't work for my activity. If I got my clients to look like bodybuilders, I'd be broke, you know, like nobody wants to do that. It's a different type of thing. So, and that's not to say, it's a funny thing

because I always think, like, I'm social media friends with Phil Heath, one of the probably the most. Yeah, we just had him on the show. Oh, love him. Probably one of the probably the most yeah, we just had one of them. Oh love them Probably one of the most he's super successful Bodybuilders of all time if not the most and that dude always cheers on when I post my clients doing different stuff He always cheers him on you know He'd be just play basketball like when I post a basketball guy. He'll be like man. That's badass

He those guys know enough to know yeah, they're doing a different activity. Not only that, he's all lifting weights, but it's different. Not only that, he's also more aware about his own insecurities that drove him to even want to look the way he looks too. He's aware of that. And a lot of these big meathead science door guys are still stuck in that part of their life where even the look that they're trying to get everybody else to be Attracted to is drawn from an insecurity of I was too small as a kid and now look at me now You know yeah, and that's the thing like I would never say my style of training is ideal for bodybuilding You know like I just wouldn't I I've never you know I've done a lot of articles for example about

Why I do single leg training instead of bilateral training in a lot of cases because I've had a lot of articles, for example, about why I do single leg training instead of bilateral training in a lot of cases because I've had a serious back surgery. It's kind of capped an obvious rationale, but that's controversy on the internet, even though it shouldn't be. But I wouldn't tell you, I've never seen a bodybuilder get massive legs doing the stuff I do. I think you can get pretty developed legs, but I don't know, I actually don't know if you did all the other stuff they do

and ate like they do, maybe you could. I'm not sure, I'm not saying you can, but I'm saying I don't want that, and to me this is like a good way to do it around your injuries. You know, that's all. And there's value to all of it, I think, and I think with gen pop, there's good value

in learning hypertrophy, stability, endurance, some strength, some power. It's good to know all of that stuff. And as a good trainer, you gotta know it, right? Because you're training a lot of people. Otherwise, you're terrible. Well, but again, I don't attract, I mean, look at me. I barely look like I lift with clothes on.

So it's like, I don't attract the dudes that are trying to look like the rock. You're not, yeah, you're not. You know, like, and, and I don't, you know, and I think. You attract all the better clients. But I think it's, uh, well, so. Get a four training you attract. One thing you were saying though, it's interesting because I think that social

media fitness warps, like reality in the sense of like if like again I'm five nine hundred seventy pounds my clients think I'm like big you know and so it's all on a continuum you know and that's a thing of I'll never forget this in 2013 so 12 years ago I tore the labrum in my right shoulder. And I was basically told you can either do surgery or rehab this. And I was just starting my business. I kind of didn't have the time or money to get surgery. So I'm like, I'll just rehab. And it took like seven or eight months of doing rehab and stuff before it started feeling better. But I did like no upper body for like eight months.

And at the time when I moved to LA, I was a little thicker than I am now. I was like, the biggest I've ever been is like 185 pounds. But 15 pounds of muscle is pretty significant on my height. I was still pretty lean. So I was a little bit thicker. And at that time I was just training hard as shit all the time, you know, slow eccentric, drop sets,

just beat the fuck out of myself every workout. And consciously trying to, you know, double protein on everything and stuff like that. And I was just fully in the lifestyle. And then I hurt my shoulder. And for eight months I did no upper body, just all leg stuff and rehab. And so much it started fucking with me

because all these girls I were training were like, man, you look great. Like you look, you're really losing weight. And I was like, fuck am I beating the shit out of myself for just to get compliments when I lost the weight. And it was like, fuck am I beating the shit out of myself for just to get compliments when I lost the weight. And it was like, and I realized like that look is a very niche look. It just is, you know, like, uh, like if you, you know, uh, that's not to say anything's better than the other, but I sort of like, that was a pivotal thing

for me where I was like, I should change my training cause I feel like shit every day and I don't even look how I want. Like, you know, it's uh Let's be honest that look is driven by an insecure person who is driven to look that way who attracts other Insecure boys that think they want to look that way too Because when you really unbet what you just said at one point and I guarantee everybody in this room has had that same exact Situation where when you when I when I was the most jacked, it was not when any of my girlfriends or women in my life were coming over to tell me how great I looked.

It was other young dudes who wanted to look like that. And when I thought I looked my worst was some of the best compliments I've had. Well, it's a niche. There's this, you know, like, yeah, I don't want to shit on people, but I think you just have to do what makes you happy at the end of the day, but I wish that there was more in the online world, less criticism of people that just, you're shooting at different baskets. So like, for you to criticize a single-leg RDL

when the goal is knee stability, because it's not ideal for hypertrophy, like what are you even talking about? Yeah. What's your point? It's, you know, uh, so, and then I also, I, I felt insecurity as a trainer for sure, uh, because I want to be successful and stuff, but I'm, I'm not a big guy and I don't want to be, and I feel like that's actually, in my opinion,

it's probably better when you're training Gen Pop people. I actually think if I got like, it's intimidating. I think my clients would be less apt cause that's not what they're going for. No, you're right. So I actually think it's made me better, but I do feel sometimes insecure in the internet rat race

cause that's not my goal. And particularly as I start to, you know, I turned 40 this year, I can't lift the same weight I lifted when I was 30. I actually can, but I just pay for it, you know? And I'm like, I don't really want to keep doing this. I don't want to keep, like, why would I go to hell and back for just like some video to show I can?

It's hard, but I think that the internet fucks with everyone's head, myself included. I've done so much stupid shit where I'm like, social media didn't exist, I wouldn't have done that. The amount of times that I pride myself on my relative body strength, and so I like to, sometimes I do the, I think at the crux of it, I have videos that I do

to help people and then videos where you try to just flex that you can do it. Yeah. And there's been so many times that I fucked myself up being like, why did you feel the need to do that? Yeah. And I don't know if I'll ever stop being an idiot. I've gotten a little better, but I'm still stupid.

I try and remind myself that the internet is predominantly teenage boys. That's what most of the YouTube and Instagram is dominated by teenage boys that don't have much going on in their life that are on it all day long to talk to you. That's really what you have to remind yourself of that. That's who I'm trying to impress right now when I do this shit. I have to tell myself that. Well, two years ago, right before I started my app, somebody was like, you gotta try TikTok,

so it's another way to sell your app. So a friend of mine that helps me with the videos for the app, he basically started putting my stuff from Instagram onto TikTok. And it's so funny because every, on Instagram, I definitely get trolled, but it's... Nowhere near like two talks. Well, it's, I don't get trolled that much.

One thing I learned about celebrities is like, if you get trolled in the fitness world, it's nothing. Like real famous people, they get trolled like crazy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like if you're a pro athlete and you have a bad game, like, it's not gonna be a good day for you the next day on the internet.

So I've learned they all have way thicker skin than, like, when I used to write Teenation articles day for you the next day on the internet. So I've learned they all have way thicker skin than like when I used to write t-nation articles and somebody would be like you're small I'm like fucking googling their address. I'm like I'm pulling up like I'm pulling up like I'm this person doesn't agree with me like we need to settle this like I'm coming to your house and then I've learned to grow thick skin. But Instagram, I definitely get trolls. And I get way more trolls. It's like we were talking about Off Air. But I get a lot more trainer.

They're probably not even trolls. But I do my social media for the clients I'm trying to attract. I don't like, not for other trainers. So if, and I say that to say, you have to know your audience and how to speak. So in trainer world, everything is an it depends type answer. But in, to people that don't care, I kind of say things in black and whites,

even though they're not, just because I talk how people talk. And so that gets like, gets me into some internet trouble with people like, well, what about this situation? And I'm like, I wasn't talking about that. Yeah. You know, I kind of feel like on my social media page, you know what you're getting. So I don't have to, I don't want to say every single post,

like I'm a dude that comes at things from like a performance based standpoint with like lower back And I don't have to say that every time like it is what it is All right, if you want to fucking do back squats or Jefferson curls, I couldn't possibly care less But like that's not here You know, it'd be like if you go to like a Mexican restaurant, you wouldn't be like why the fuck don't you have pasta? Sign dude, like it's on the side. I don't know have pasta? Like, it was on the sign, dude. Like, it was on the sign.

I don't know what to tell you. You came to the wrong place. You know? That's how I feel. What happened on TikTok? Well, so basically, I just started TikTok, because I was like, maybe this is another place to hock my app.

And it's like 100% of the comments were bad. Bro, that's what happened to us. That happened to us like four or five years ago. I was just like, I would post a pro athlete training. And I'm like, and I know good training. You guys know good training. All this, anything I post is good form. Like if you train people, like you know real form, like I never post anything if it's bad form. So if I like, I'm like, I'm co-signing this.

Like this is good form. On TikTok, this dude's bad for him. So if I like, I'm like, I'm co-signing this like this is good for him on Tik TOK. This dude's doing it wrong. Like snap city. He's going to be hurt. All these kids. And I'm like, how you guys are like, I, so I just stopped after like six months. I was like, bro, stop putting up the videos. I guess this place just isn't for me. Like I just, you know, like it's not that like, I'm like, I'm probably not selling very many apps here. I'll see myself out. We hired a company, we hired a company about four or five years ago. Same thing. We hadn't even been on Tik Tok. Everyone's like, man, you got, you got to be on Tik Tok. You're missing out on all this, whatever.

And all we did was literally pay to companies, they take our stuff from Instagram and from the other stuff and put it right over onto Tik Tok and these, and these kids, man, the first five posts, we would get hundreds and hundreds of nothing but negative. I had to stay off of it completely, completely stay off of it. It was so bad. Oh, dude, it's crazy.

And it's all people that have, they'd kill to be where you're at and whatever. It's weird. Good time. Man, this has been great, man. We had you on for almost two hours. We had a great conversation. I talk too much.

No, no, it's good. It's a good sign. It's a good sign. I don't know. Good time, dude. Yeah, no, very good, bro. Yeah. I appreciate you.

Yeah, you're funny, too. So I think this is a good thing. Yeah, we'll do it again. Hashtag Caldera Labs. Shout out. Tie that back. Shout out. Yeah, for sure.

Appreciate you, dude. Appreciate you coming on. Likewise, yeah. Thank you. Appreciate you, dude. Appreciate you coming in. Likewise. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com.

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