Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2626: Five Weird & Cool Gym Facts

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

In this episode of Quah (Q & A), Sal, Adam & Justin answer four Pump Head questions from the Sunday @mindpumpmedia Quah post. Mind Pump Fit Tip: 5 weird and cool gym facts. (2:05) Busting the myths surrounding upright rows. (25:17) The real art of being a smart trainer and getting back to customer obsession. (29:59) Fun Facts with Justin: The Capybara. (43:13) Caldera before and after’s. (46:01) How temperature affects your sleep. (48:49) Big guy in a small plane chair. (51:00) Mind Pump is looking for trainers. Apply today! (55:56) #ListenerLive question #1 – I'm getting very incremental results with MAPS 15. What am I doing wrong? (56:43) #ListenerLive question #2 – What adverse effects does TRT have? (1:11:35) #ListenerLive question #3 – My downfall has been staying consistent with my diet & workouts. Any advice or a plan to break this relationship? (1:25:45) #ListenerLive question #4 – I’ve been frustrated and feeling lost in the last 5-6 months, and I do not know where to go from here in terms of my lifting and how to progress with any lifts without causing injury. Please help! (1:45:13) Related Links/Products Mentioned Ask a question to Mind Pump, live! Email: [e-mail] Visit Caldera Lab for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Code MINDPUMP20 for 20% off your first order of their best products. ** Visit Eight Sleep for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump Listeners! ** Use the code MINDPUMP to get $350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is that you still get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don’t like it – – Shipping to many countries worldwide. ** June Special: Shredded Summer Bundle or Bikini Bundle 50% off! ** Code JUNE50 at checkout ** Mind Pump #1735: Worst Fitness Myths That Keep People Out of Gyms The 3 Best Ways to Grow Massive Shoulders! | MP Justin’s Road to 315 Push Press Mind Pump #2612: How One Man Lost Over 300 Pounds Without Any Cardio 13 Surprising Capybara Facts Effects of thermal environment on sleep and circadian rhythm Eight Sleep Pod Leads to Improved Sleep Quality Mind Pump Personal Training – Apply today! Visit Paleovalley for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Discount is now automatically applied at checkout: 15% off your first order! ** Mind Pump #2380: Six Huge TRT Mistakes Building Muscle with Adam Schafer – Mind Pump TV Ask Mind Pump Mind Pump #2220: How to Stay Consistent With Your Workouts Mind Pump #2320: Throw Away the Scale! Mind Pump #2210: Best Workouts For Bulking & Cutting Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources People Mentioned Mind Pump | Ann Svogun (@mindpumpann) Instagram Dr. William Seeds (@williamseedsmd) Instagram Jamie Selzler (@jselzler) Instagram Marcelo (@mindpumpmarcelo) Instagram Kyle P (@mindpumpkyle) Instagram Thomas Conrad (@realrecoverytalktom) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is mind pumping. Today's episode, we had live callers call in. We got to coach them on air, but this was after the intro. Today's intro was 54 minutes long. Now in the intro, we talk about fitness facts,

fat loss, muscle gain, talk about current events, family life, great conversations. By the way, if you wanna be on an episode like this where you call in and we can coach you, email us your question at live at mindpumpmedia.com. Now we have some sponsors that brought you this episode. The first one is Caldera Lab. They make skincare products that are all natural

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And it's t-shirt time! Ah shit Doug you know it's t-shirt time! Ah, shit, Doug. You know it's my favorite time of the week. Only one winner this week, and that's for Apple Podcast. It's KansasHiker69. Send the name, I just read, if that is you, to iTunes at mindpumpmedia.com. Include your shirt size and your shipping address,

and we'll get that shirt right out to you. And for the rest of you, if you want a good chance to win, leave a review. Gyms are awesome places. We're gonna talk about five weird and cool gym facts that you should learn. Let's get into it. Yeah, I'll start with the first one.

This one right here, most people don't know this, but this is a very true fact. This is one of the truest facts of gyms, and that is that the most hardcore gyms, the ones that are the most hardcore, iron dungeons, they have the best culture. And I'm talking about for beginners, I'm talking about for everyday people,

if you want the best gym culture, you go to the scary, scary gyms. They're the best ones. It's true. I think you love talking about this. I scary gyms. It's true. You love it. I think you love talking about this. I do. But it's it is very true. I mean I'm guilty too of actually assuming the opposite. Even being in the fitness space I think I remember first time going to like some of these like

hardcore like power. I consider those like a powerlifting gym. If I had to categorize that those I would say it's like a powerlifting gym. Well even there's even hardcore bodybuilding ones, there's hardcore weightlifting ones, but you know them because they're not flashy, they're not trying to get, they're not advertising like crazy. Like you walk in, you feel the intensity. Well, they don't sell you on all the amenities, right? It's not like known for its warm towel when you walk in, or like the super cool bathrooms

or whatever like that. And okay, so you're even categorized like the body building side too. Okay, yeah, I like that, that's fair. It is true though, they feel probably, I mean as a beginner, they're probably the most intimidating. Oh, for sure.

Because it's the opposite of like, and I guess that's why it's a great point or tip is they feel the opposite of Planet Fitness. They do not feel like Planet Fitness at all. What's funny is that the least, most gyms have a decent culture. Gyms have just in general, typically a good culture because people are there to try to better themselves.

But the ones with the worst culture, if you had to categorize them, are the cheapest ones. It's the mega gyms, the cheapest ones that advertise having the best culture. Judgment free zone, that's a judgment zone. If there is gonna be one in a gym, it's that gym. The most judgment. Yes. Hardcore gems are the most welcoming, period, end of story. If you're a beginner, if you're an obese individual who's never worked out, so you walk into an iron dungeon

with chalk and you walk in there there's monsters in there working out. And it's your first time and you go in there and you're trying to work out and you need help or whatever, like you are gonna become part of a club. They're gonna welcome you in like you're part of the family. It's incredibly encouraging. They're the most respectful of equipment in gym etiquette. Everybody re-racks their weights, everybody takes care of the equipment. They keep everybody in check. If

there is a jerk in there, don't worry. They're going to police that guy. What do you think it is? Why do you think that is? Why would a gym like that, if you're comparing it to a platenant fitness or a big commercial gym gym like a 24 fitness. Why is the culture so much better? Is it just because the? The seriousness of the lifters there because they take they so much really be there They take so much pride in the place and they're like, what is it? I think it's I think you take masters of any space or field so think of any any space right think of business space or field, so think of any space, right? Think of business.

Think of like the most successful business people and they meet some 20 year old kids who are just new to business but they're like really trying. They're gonna be very welcomed and respected. You go to a jujitsu school and it's full of masters of jujitsu and you're first timer. They're gonna treat you the best because they're masters of the space.

They don't have the same, it's not like you go to a gym. But they're gonna train you. They don't have, okay, so maybe what you're saying is there's less insecurities. Oh, I don't know about that. I would say there's some insecurity still there, but they've been down that road.

They've gone down that road. They've worked on themselves. They've tried and they respect people for trying. I mean, think about us, right? I think that's what, when you, I'm trying to connect it to these analogies that you're giving about the business one, but I definitely get what you're saying with the Jitsu one with the black belts. But I think that would be because they're just the confidence of they know who they are and they're incurred. You know what I'm saying? So they're very secure with who they are, which is I they're incurring, you know I'm saying so they're very secure with who they are

Which is I could see that parallel like, you know, you have these very secure Powerlifters or bodybuilders. They've been lifting forever, you know I'm saying so they have a lot of knowledge around the space and so they feel more secure in who they are what they're doing And they they're inspired baby by a young Come in. I don't know. It's interesting though, because if you look at even, and I know this isn't the best comparison, but even the metal community where it's very hardcore music, it's the most intense and crazy,

the nicest people you'd ever meet if you're in that community. And I think that it's just one of those barriers, that we like our thing. We know not a lot of people like it, but if you're willing to come in and step into our culture, we're fully gonna embrace you. I mean, if you're like, by the way, this is like especially true for women.

Like if you're a newbie and you walk into really scary gyms and you're like trying and you're working out hard, like you're gonna be adopted as a little sister to a lot of these monsters in that gym, and they're like trying and you're working out hard. Like you're gonna be adopted as a little sister to a lot of these monsters in that gym. And they're gonna be protective, they're gonna help you. I know this, I have friends who started in gyms like this and they tell me, I've worked out in gyms. And like you Adam, the first times that I went

into some of these gyms as a kid, it's intimidating because, well it looks intimidating. There's beasts in there, lifting weight that you're like, I can't even imagine how strong these people are and they're veiny and they're whatever and they're intense. And I went into a couple of these gyms super intimidated, but also like, I wanna learn from this, and I worked out, and I got so much encouragement.

Because I was a young kid trying hard. I didn't get that at many other gyms that I worked out at, but when I would go into those gyms, and I remember driving far to try to find a world gym once that I'm like I'm gonna go work out there and I saw Just I never seen people like that before in you know in real life and I was just working out hard and I got fist bumps and pats on the back and Advice and I was like, oh my god, this culture is just so incredible and culture is super important For consistency. So this one right here, I love talking about it, especially to people who are intimidated,

just going to the free weight area or whatever, the people who are most intimidating looking because they've been doing it for so long are oftentimes the most welcoming and encouraging. Next up, the most jacked and ripped members of the gym probably have the hardest struggles with body dysmorphia and insecurities related to those. So you may think that the person who's super shredded

doesn't feel insecure about how they look, but the truth is, oftentimes that's what drove them to those extremes. And so this, I think will help somebody who's a beginner as well, walk in and realize that you have more in common with the person that looks super shredded than you think. Or that they're in a worse place, even though physically they might be in a better place.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we worked, you know, we had a lot of trainers work for us, and what are the odds that your most jack trainer was the one that typically dealt with the worst insecurities about body dysmorphia? Yeah, pretty high. Well, I think that's the reason why they don't typically make the best trainers, too Yeah, I mean when you think back of some of your best They were my best trainer on the staff was never the most jack-to-fit trainer. That's typically true Yeah, they didn't connect the most with my the clients or too preoccupied with them Yeah, or they're still in they're still in the thick of it themselves. You know, they're still

Working through their own body dysmorphia and insecurity So if you've got somebody who's hiring you to help you and you in this is what you guys know as veterans is like That's a big area that you have to overcome with a client. If they're gonna be successful long-term you have to move them in the right direction with that and if you're a trainer and coach and you're still in the thick of that or you're maybe you don't even realize you are that person it real hard to help you know Jane who comes in is struggling unless you're vulnerable and open about it. Yeah like well I mean that would be a superpower for a trainer is that is being aware of it is probably the most powerful thing and then being able to share that hey I still struggle with this.

I figured that out as a trainer. I always tell the story about the girl who she recovering anorexic and I was trying to figure out how to connect with her and I'm like hey I struggle, I struggle with body dysmorphia. And she looked at me like I was crazy. And then I talked to her and then it was such a different experience. She was, you know, I trained her so much more effectively as well, you know, backing up to the, to the gym culture one. This is fun for fitness fanatics, by the way, if you're like a super fitness fanatic, try to, and I'm speaking to the fitness fanatics, these are the ones willing to do this, Look for these hardcore specialized gyms that are, you know, that you're driving distance,

like 40 minutes, maybe even an hour away, because you'll get so much from working out just in that culture. So if you love working out like a ton, this is super fun. Take your workout partners, hey, let's find a couple power lifting gyms, let's find a couple iron dungeons,

let's find some of these places, and let's just go visit them and go on like a gym, tourism, essentially. It's a lot of fun, have you guys ever done that? Not like that. I did that a couple times, yeah, super fun. All right, number three is the best advice oftentimes comes from the old timers.

So the people who've been in there for a long time, 40s, 50s, 60s, who've been working out consistent and they're fit. Now, you might not take their advice, because it might sound too basic. I wish I took their advice when I was younger. But oftentimes their advice is the most sound. Well, I would definitely agree if you said,

in general, life advice. Because maybe I'll meet an old-timer who doesn't have the best workout advice or nutrition advice, but in general, life advice. Because maybe I'll meet an old timer who doesn't have the best workout advice or nutrition advice, but in general, like I think the thing that's most admirable is you're 60, 70 years old and you're still doing this. You figured something out. That's right.

Right, so I think that's important to know because like especially your young science nerd kid who just came out of his degree or whatever is gonna be like Oh what he's saying is so not true. This is what the studies say. It's like listen There's something about if this guy's still doing this at 70 years old You may agree or disagree with his the way he communicates it or what like that But he figured something out and let's be honest all all of us are, that's a goal is like, hey, I want to be 70, still in here moving weight

and stuff like that and making this a part of my routine. And if you have figured out how to do that with life, right? Having probably a family and raising kids and work and you're still here, that says something right there. It's funny, over the weekend I finally got to go to the Santa Cruz Athletic Club and- Oh you went? Oh that place is sick.

Yeah, it was my first time and- Is it finished, finished, Justin? Finished, totally finished. I went and did a workout. Me too. Yeah, and it was great. I just was doing my thing, great culture in there, and what really sold me was that this,

what you're bringing up. I was doing a farmer carry and I was kind of in the zone doing my thing. And this guy comes up to me, he's like 78. And he just walked up to me and he just wanted to introduce himself. And he's just like, Hey, I see you're new. And you know, I'm like, Oh, hey, like his name is Sonny. And he was just like, super friendly. But he was telling me he had like triple bypass surgery before he had all these like Health problems like every time the doctor was like, please, you know relax and you know, just take it easy and all this He's like this is my happy place and I just found ways to keep coming in and doing

Light bits of strength training and just keep going and I'm like dude, that's amazing That's all I love it when I love when I come, you know, I talk to people like that in the gym It's like my favorite. Yeah, you know, I think back, I told this story before, but this is like, I could have, man, I could have erased probably 10 years of frustration if I had just taken this guy's advice. I'm gonna say his name because I would love it if he heard this.

His name is Joe Mamone, he was a friend of the family. He was a chiropractor, but he was a bodybuilder. And when I was 16, and my cousin and I were into working out and we'd always like, when he came around the family, he was a chiropractor, but he was a bodybuilder. And when I was 16 and my cousin and I were into working out and we'd always like, when he came around the house, my cousin and I were always like super psyched because we were into lifting weights and he's like the closest we ever saw to a bodybuilder. And I took him aside one time and I'm like, Joe, like, what should I do? Like, I want to get big like you.

He's like, all right, here's what you do. He goes, train your whole body two or three days a week, eat a lot of protein like chicken and tuna fish and eggs, and make sure you get good sleep. And I remember thinking how full of shit he was. Although my dad must have told him not to tell me like what to do or whatever. What supplements he's on.

Bro, he gave me the best advice. It's so obvious. He gave me the best advice. Had I listened to him, man, I would've erased so many years of just total frustration. All right, here's another one. This is just someone who's thinking about, I wanna open a gym so I could make a lot of money.

It's a terrible business model. That's a fact that a lot of people don't realize. I always feel bad because we have, obviously we have a lot of trainers that listen to us and I always feel bad when they ask my opinion on this or their... It's their dream. Yeah, yeah. I don't think you'll stop them,

no matter what we say here. I know, but it's such a, like I also, you know me, I'm also gonna be very direct and real with them. And so I don't wanna sugar coat that. Like, and I mean, that's what your mom is for, right? Your mom's there to tell you, go for it son, you can do it, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not gonna tell you that. Shoot for the moon. Yeah mom's there to tell you, go for it, son. You can do it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not going to tell you that.

Shoot for the moon. Yeah, I'm going to tell you it's a horrible business. Here's the thing. It's been compared to opening up your own bar. And obviously, very different as far as what you're trying to attract and what you're selling. But everybody thinks it's so fun and awesome. Yeah, everything's so fun, awesome,

like tons of money and margins. And it's just like, they're really, really hard to be profitable and make a lot of money doing and it's a lot of hard work. Now, if you love that culture and you like to like I've always thought like, I am it and I imagine owning a gym is in our future. But it's the way we'll do it, it will not be a necessity to our income. It's more like, I love the gym. So I can relate to that trainer that wants to do it. Yeah, I'll be here all day. I love it. Yeah, exactly. But it's like, aspiring to do that because you think you're going to make a lot of money is probably not a good idea. No.

It's just, this percentage that make really, really good revenue in it is very, very small. But if you just, if you're at a place in your life where that's not important or you don't really care, then it could be very rewarding. The hours are terrible. You're gonna be there a lot because the two busiest times when you should be there are early morning till like 11, and then again from 4 p.m. till like 9 p.m.

So if you have a break, it's in the middle of the day. So you're there a lot. And really there's really only, I mean there's really two models that will profit. One of them is anti-fitness and this is the most common model which is get a ton of volume, tons and tons and tons of people paying very low membership fees and then hope that they don't show up. Because if they did you wouldn't have the space to accommodate them. So that's anti-fitness.

The other option is super high-end, which is an even more challenging model to become profitable. And the cost of opening one of those and maintaining them is, yeah, it's insane. It's very competitive. It's just not something you do if you want to make a lot of money.

Now, if you love it, and you're like, I don't care, I'll just live in live and understand that these these big box gyms really made it difficult for the you know the solo entrepreneur to come in and build build their little dream because Everybody is comparing to what you get at, you know fitness 19 or at Planet Fitness for 24 hour fitness and you get a lot of gym for next to nothing. And so unless you go the other extreme direction where you're like high in high touch, high service type of place,

which is also very hard to execute, then you're gonna be compared to your pricing to those gyms that offer all those amenities. And so if you're this little, three, 4,000 square foot gym trying to build your dream, where you can afford to have a bathroom with maybe two stalls in it and like some basic stuff and some basic equipment. But then you want to charge a hundred something dollars a month.

They're going like, listen, I can go up the road to fitness 19 or planet fitness for $10 or $19 and I equipment, more equipment, nicer, more stuff. Like, I mean, it's just, and then they're gonna compare that and like you're It's tough and the only way I see you overcoming that is like yeah We're not like that where we're way more personable and then but then you better back that up Yeah You better have a lot of work better have a culture that makes people feel like cheers when they walk in Because that's the only way you win that battle is that people go like, oh yeah, well, I know I don't pay $9 or $10, but when I walk in,

everybody knows my name and makes me feel like this is my gym too. Like if you can build a culture like that. And then by the way, even if you can execute and do all that, it's still not a lot of money. No, you know, it's maybe you make it and it's, and it's rewarding. And the cost too, to start them. I mean, maybe you make it and it's rewarding. And the cost too to start though, I mean I had a small studio, so that's lower cost. And we were, I was never, I was always in the black and I was in business for 15 years,

but we weren't like swimming in money and I worked a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. Like I was there 60 plus hours a week. And then you talk about a big box, like you need a million or two million dollars just to get going. just to cover yourself. So, you know, good luck. All right, last, I thought this would be a fun one.

I think it's a great first date for fitness people. That's kind of funny. I do, I think if you're into working out and it's important to you and you want to go on a date and that's also important to you, so you're kind of selecting who you're gonna go out with because, you know, so that's one of the things you want to see.

You want to see what outfit they pick or what it is? No, I just think it's a great first date because it's disarming, you can have fun, you're doing something while having conversation. You know, I think it can go great or I could also tell you this isn't gonna work. What kind of noises do they make when they're lifting? Like, eh!

Yeah. Right. Don't you guys think it's a great first date? I don't know, dude. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about this one. I mean, you can't go into it thinking, I'm gonna have like my workout.

Because that would get competitive. This is bad. Yeah, I don't know how I, I don't know where I'm at on that or not. Like, I don't think I ever wanted to marry anybody that was as obsessed about the gym as I was. And so if a girl wanted me to, it was down for a first day to go there,

I'm not sure that would be good for me, or it would be ideal. I think that- But you want someone who prioritizes health. Oh, for sure. But isn't like a maniac. Yeah, like enough to where they, on a first day, to be like, we should go to the gym. Like if a girl says like, you're like, hey, what do But isn't like a maniac? Yeah like enough to where they on a first date to be

like we should go to the gym. Like if a girl says like you like hey what do you want to do for a date? She's like yeah let's go to the gym and you already know your relationship in the business. I think you'll know that in the day though by the workout you know. Uh oh she's crazy. So yeah so that would be that would be the big uh like I don't know. I think it's cool because it's safe so for women it's a safe first date. Oftentimes they want to meet somewhere where it's public just in case they need to bounce or whatever. So it's safe. You can... Conversation. Get something out of it.

Yeah, and conversation comes out naturally because you're doing something like you would with a hike although sometimes hikes. I've heard, you know, I have cousins that go on dates and they say hikes are cool but sometimes you don't want to go on a hike because you don't know the guy and you're by yourself out in the wherever. So they're like, I'd rather meet somewhere coffee is kind of, you know, played out, you know type of deal. I mean, I probably would see I would probably go I would go I'd be more down and I don't even like really hiking or doing so that but you can go hikes places that aren't like remote like I wouldn't go hiking like in the random mountains where there's nobody but like you go places where there's like good places to walk. I like that. Like that that's

cool because it's like like you both. But you got to understand from a woman's perspective. It's got to be public. I talk to, I have family members. Walking the beach is public. You go down to Santa Cruz and go walk to beach and it's very public and it's and you get a look. Yeah, that's cool too. So like maybe like that direction because I don't know like a girl that would want to go on a Workout for her first visit and I already know my relationship with the gym might be too much for me Then it would be a she gonna mess up your workout. No That you just get two people that are Unless you just get that lucky and you're older and you both are Beyond your insecurities and the things that drive you to want to go to the gym that much I don't know I mean I think about this way

like you're on a first date and then she's squatting she's got great tech I mean that's a turn off that is that is that I or she has bad I will I will admit that I will admit that I don't know Justin where you at Doug where you at yeah I'm a little I don't know I mean that's how you met your wife. Well, that's why I met her, but I didn't take her there for a date. It turned into that. Would you go out with you, Doug? Yeah, I don't know why, but I don't

think I'd want to do that. I think it says more about you than anything else. That's what I think. Actually, you know what's funny? I actually looked this up. I actually looked this up. People do this, huh? Yeah, and it like been rated pretty high

Particularly by I mean the point you make that's really good is it it it does say that that person prioritizes health Yeah, and so and that's a really important. So here's where I read it It was women and let's be honest. Let's be real when it comes to dates first dates women dictate oftentimes what happens It's just just the way it is and it was a lot of women saying it was a great first date. She could see that he was- Here, I'll sell it for you, okay? So the other thing I could see is it's also you're only committed to one hour.

Yeah. So it's like- That's right, you could decide to go after once a week. Yeah, right, yeah. You could be like, hey, do you want to grab something to eat? Or you could be like, oh, I'm good, I got to go. So you know what I'm saying? And you got your out.

Faking injury. Yeah. I mean, it's very public. You can assess a lot from it, let's be honest. You could find out if that person is really self-absorbed. That's exactly what was that? Hell, we're being listened to by the FBI. Turn off your phone.

It is, I guess. That's wild. That's so weird. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I just think you could read a lot about their character, but based upon if they're acknowledging your struggle, if they're kind of providing you with so that's what I was reading I was reading

that women were like it's safe they were like it's safe are they paying attention to me or are they checking out other women yeah is he attentive how's the conversation yeah and so I can see it from their perspective yes so that's a lot of it that's a lot where this came from and I'm like oh that makes sense right because if you're a woman, you go with a guy and you go to the gym and he's checking out other women, you're probably like, but if he's paying attention to you and or if he's being too mansplaining, you know, let me show you. I mean, we're probably all terrible people to even

talk about this because last time any of us went on a first date? Because as I'm challenging, I'm like, what would I do? It's been a long time since I've had to think about that. Where would I go or what I'd like to do? Like, yeah, I don't know. Anyway, along these lines, I gotta bring up. I gotta go to a concert. We just, of course you would.

I wanna bring up a clip that we put up that is getting a lot of views, but also some controversy. What's that? It's the one that Josh did, where I'm, but also some controversy. What's that? It's the one that Josh did where I'm, there's a- The shoulder one? Yeah. I didn't see any controversy.

Oh, I went on TikTok. Oh, well that's why. Come on. But no, it does bring up points that I think some people believe about upright rows. So- But they're dangerous? In the video, right, so in the video, there's a guy talking about how the way you get

wide shoulders is doing upright rows, way better than laterals, this, that, and the other. I'm a huge fan of upright rows, but then underneath it, you see these, they're either first time fitness students or trainers that are trying to sound smart, and I could tell by what they're saying. So I'd like to address some of the stuff.

So one is, they probably broke down a part of the shoulder and use that as like it well so one one person goes it's just it's the same thing as a lateral raise it's the same thing because of the motion right so here's lateral here's a row it's not it's a different extra I hate it when people say look at two exercises look at the function and say it's the same. It's not. It is not the same. Pulling up versus raising out. Yeah, I guess at the del, but there's a different stability and different involvement of muscles.

It's a very different feel on the body. So it's not. Different synchronicity. Synchronicity. Thank you. You got it. You could also load, you could load an upright row way more different too. Of course.

So like if you, it's a, I mean, if I wanted to go heavy on laterals or hit the lateral head from going heavy, I would not go heavy lateral dumbbells. I'd go upright rows. That's right. I would do an upright row to do that. Yeah, it's, you know, that's TikTok, dude. I don't know. I'm ashamed on you for even going on that. Although I brought up good points

because I've heard this before. Our armchair coach is my favorite. I've heard this before. Or how about it causes impingement? In fact, speaking of which, this is a jerk press and I know that. The one on your shirt? Yeah.

Okay. I'm aware of what a jerk press is. Everybody out there knows that. I just wanna like, proclaim criticism. Proclaim that. That's so dumb. Because of the title. I know, I wish that when we first had the conversation that you said, that you said, uh, my goal is to just put 315 over my head.

Yeah, just that was the clarity. If you just said it like that, it would have covered like all your bit, that way like. Now I have to take the fallout for that. I like projected that even in the series and was like, here's, I'm going to get criticism for this and you know, I'm changing this. And sure enough, like people just go like zero to the end. Yeah. I'd like to see people just hold 315. You don't even lift it. Just hold it above your head. Just all the little nuances with my foot position and all that. Cause like they get really particular with like, you know, when it's the Olympic standard and it's Olympic lift, you know, you can get down to the minuscule details and be judged on it. And so, you know, I get the armchair coaches that think they're like

Olympic grade coaches that are picking it apart. And it's like, cool. I wasn't going for that. I was just going for the overhead part. My foot, you know, you can roast me on that, that's fine. Go for it. That wasn't the point. So back to the upright row, impingement. You know, any movement you can do with good control and good stability is safe. Any movement.

Any movement you can conceptualize in your mind. Can you imagine if you get a Jefferson Cruel and on TikTok, you should do that. Just to do that. You should. I'm going to have Josh do that. Let's do like real. Yeah. And then talk about all the, how great it is.

And good mornings too. I'm sure you still have problems with that. Do a Jefferson curl and talk about what it's for and how great it is and just let it be on TikTok. Oh, it's going to go. Let it go. Let it go and see what happens. Yeah. Someone else says, oh, it activates the infraspinatus and teres minor. There's a kid fresh out of certification. Looked at an anatomy book. You know what's funny, that's the criticism.

The criticism is it activates the infraspinatus and teres minor like a reverse arm wrestle. Why would you do that? Actually, that's not a bad thing. Why wouldn't you want to involve? Why wouldn't you want to do that? Yeah, so by the way, that's part of what makes the exercise difficult, okay?

That's why some people. Different function, you gotta express different functions. You want healthy shoulders, you should train it in different ways, and one of them is like that. And yeah, start like. That's like rounded lifting, like even rounded back lifting. We need to do it so we don't hurt ourselves. That's right, you can get strong in so many different ways.

And if you avoid getting strong in certain ways at a fear of injury, I'm not saying don't respect injury. You should always respect injury. But if you like avoid stuff, I don't know, don't move that way. It's a progressive way to do it. You're going to actually cause problems for yourself in the future. So I wanted to bring up this weekend. It was really cool to watch you speak in Vegas. Obviously I've seen you speak a

ton and I tease that I'm tired of hearing you talk because I've heard everything you say and I know what you're gonna say before you say it. But that was a huge audience, right? There was about 15 to 1800 people live. There was thousands of people watching online and this was also longer, right? Normally it's 20-30 minutes or so. This was 45 minutes And you easily could have won an hour. I saw towards the end you had to speed things up to get it in and I was I'm saying we're at a place to a peptide conference right or Congress where we're at. I Would say more than half the audience are doctors, you know Yeah so that let me know already for I would be terrified to speak up in front

of that audience for sure. Cause heaven forbid I go up there and try and act like I know I'm talking about. But you did such a good job of communicating that at all levels. My, my, what I mean by that is if you are somebody who was new and you definitely made a lot of sense and explained it very, which is what we're, we, everyone knows we're good at that already, but you also did a really good job. This is, and I don't know how many people know, like this is the real art to being a

smart trainer is your ability to let people like doctors know that like, I know what the fuck I'm talking about, but I don't need to, I don't need to show you that much to where it's insecure of me. So you, you talked intelligently and high enough level. Self-deprecating little humor in there to keep it going. So just, and I, and I was listening to the people all around and several people that had been there from the already listening to all the talks was like, Oh my God,

that was the best talk that I heard yet. And a lot of people that weren't, we had probably, I don't know, at one point you asked how many people were familiar with our show, and I don't know, maybe half the audience raised their hands or whatever. And I was more interested in the people that hadn't listened to our show. So that's who I'm watching, right?

So after you said that early on, I'm like, now I'm watching the doctors and the people that didn't know who we were, because I really wanted to see their critique and that was the feedback was just that it was the best talk and then those people were so like I hear other people who knew who we were like sharing our our podcast with those people were like where who who are these guys and then so it was really cool to see that absolutely just crushed that and did incredible with the slides I know she

prepared you she's a machine I don't know how she does it. And thanks, by the way, for saying that. It was, you know, it's actually one of the things that I'm the most nervous doing. So I appreciate that. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy that you say that because it does not, I mean, we watched several other talks and I mean, I can see they're nervous. And these are doctors, right? So I'm watching other doctors follow you and see how nervous they are communicating. And to think that you think, you say that you're really, that makes you nervous,

is like, you definitely don't come off that way. It's an honor to speak. Well, I gotta say it's an honor to represent us because you guys are just, when people don't see behind the scenes what you guys do I mean I work with men that are just in my opinion far greater than I am and and so to represent us is such an honor but a responsibility so that's what makes me so nervous is because I'm up there not just representing myself I'm representing you guys and I don't want to

do it anything that that is anything other than Reflecting just how awesome I think you guys are so That makes me nervous. It makes me nervous when I get up there, but it's fun. I enjoy doing it We've got great feedback and it's incredible. She always has a great. I don't know how she does it I'll I'll give her my idea and like two days later, she'll have a slide deck that's like, I mean ridiculous, she's like a machine. Yeah, she's a master educator. Incredible machine.

The people there were, it's an interesting place, right? It's like medical professionals who are also super into like fitness and nutrition, so it's just like great, you know, coming together of people. Yeah, yeah. Really, really cool. Yeah, you know, one of my favorite parts, because it even to like this lady next to me hadn't heard of us

and was like, why all these people? Because some people are coming getting like photos of us. She's like, what do you do? I'm I always have like a podcast. It's been around for a while. You know, just downplaying it. And then she was looking into it. And then anyway, she's like a primary care doctor

and was like what's encouraging is that like this whole peptide movement and a lot of the interest in preventative medicine measures and all these other things is reaching like general practitioners primary care doctors that they're like so fed up with like not getting any kind of result with their patients and they're like looking for these things to to really benefit it's like they're they're just as passionate as they were they just haven't had the tools you know and it's so it's cool to see a movement and a big movement too in that direction yeah it's interesting it's a really interesting space I don't know where it's gonna go because peptides are not like pharmaceuticals. They're different.

They're naturally occurring in the body, so the body kind of knows what to do with them. Safety profile is generally much better. They tend to be regenerative versus pharmaceuticals, which often times come with all kinds of different hosts of issues, and it's exploding. Dr. Seed's is gonna double the spaceeds, he said he's gonna double the space for next year.

He's gonna double the space. What was really cool, what was really cool is they, essentially, they asked me to speak and what they offered as part of us going over there was they gave us, they set us up with a space to do whatever we wanted with and so we're like, should we do a live event? What should we do? And our training department just started training

all these virtual clients this year. Like, why don't we invite these virtual clients so we can all meet them? That is my favorite thing I've ever done. To see the trainers. You said that a few times. Well, we had Kyle go up there and give out awards, or talk about his trainers. We saw the trainers go up there and give out awards, uh, you know, or talk about his trainers. We saw the trainers go up there,

give out awards to our clients. We got to meet these people who are training with our trainers and then, you know, we got to hang out with them and it was, uh, oh my God, man, it was just a glimpse of what's to come. I think I got really excited about it too. So I saw just so much potential and highlighting. And again, this goes back to like, you know, having Jamie on the show and having his story, like impactful and powerful that is.

And like this was like another extension of that, that we're building and growing. And so it just, I could see like a lot of energy in that. I almost cried three times. I saw first Kyle up there, and here's a guy that we are, we call him a kid, because we're old, but he's a man. And he's up there on stage,

and we hired him as an intern. As an intern. And here he is leading a department, and he's just a gifted individual. He's crushing it. And then we see these trainers go up there, and I'm like, we just hired you, and you're doing such great things.

And then we're meeting these clients and the stories that they're telling us of their, I lost 50 pounds, I lost 100 pounds, I had chronic pain, this changed my life. I've been working with Marcelo, he's done this. I've been working with Cole, this is what happened. And then my mid 70s, deadlifting over 200 pounds. Yes, can we talk about that lady?

Oh, Betz was so awesome. She's my favorite. She's so sick. She's so sick. She's a badass. She has so much energy too. She's just full life. 70, I'm gonna brag on her. She's not gonna like this,

but I know because she's like very humble. She's a 76 year old pathologist, which first of all, if you're a female pathologist at 76, you came through when that was a good old boys club. So you had to be a badass back then for sure. Like they weren't letting you in. So she's that. Then she's talking about strength training and now she's deadlifting 200 pounds, bench pressing was 125 pounds, 76 years old.

76. So much energy. And got into it like later on. Yeah. Like she's like, it's not like she was powerlifting young and then now she's been like, that was like later found that. She was, I don't know if she told you this or not but she like credited us to getting her into strength training. And she goes that's what made me start doing it. And the fact that in the short time that she's been listening to the show, had hired trainers got into the power lifting progress to where she's doing over 200 pounds at 76 year old is dope.

Oh, so great. Yeah, I met another young lady who lost like a lot of weight. She's been working with Kyle now for, God, over a year, remember her? And she's gonna become a trainer. I'm gonna tell you this, this has happened to me only a couple times where I had a client become a trainer.

It's the greatest compliment ever. When you take a client who had no interest in it and then suddenly they wanna to make it to Korea. You took it full circle. It's like, well, you know. That's the greatest. And from everywhere, man, we had Florida, Ohio, Montana. Where else do we have? Oklahoma.

Oklahoma. Wisconsin. I mean, man, there was like nobody local. Everybody was from all over the country had flown in. And I mean, I felt so special that they did that for, I mean, just a short period of time to hang out. I mean, it's not like we had three days worth of stuff lined up for them. It's like they came down there to meet us and the trainers and to spend all that. It was cool.

It was very cool. Very, very cool and neat to see the beginning of this and to watch it. I think it'll be even cooler to talk about it four or five years down the road. Where it started. Oh, it's gonna be so awesome where it started. I told all the trainers, we all had dinner afterwards,

and we all sat down, we're doing toasts, and I said, you guys remember this moment because this is gonna grow so fast, you're gonna look back and remember when it was this small, this intimate, and you're gonna think just so fondly of it. Like I think about when I go back, think about when we first created programs back in the day,

trying to make this thing grow, that'll never happen again, that energy, because everything's so different. I'm also, I mean, I shouldn't probably formally announce it, but I mean, we're talking about it, so it's like the shift that we're going through right now in the company. And one of the exciting, it was a very aha moment for me. What I did was I put myself back in like, you know, what if this thing was, was so small that it was just me and I didn't have you guys, but yet I was getting some traction

and building an audience and building a culture around a business. And instead of having hundreds of people buying maps programs every day, I had five people, three to five people, which a single person being able to sell three to five digital programs of theirs every day would be an incredible feat. And so we've gotten so far beyond that for so long that I've lost touch and was ashamed that I wasn't communicating and talking with those people more. And that we, and granted I shared this with some of the clients, they're like, oh my God, you guys kidding me? Like your customer service team is so incredible.

You email them, they get right back to you, they help you. I felt like I had, I was like, yeah, I know, but not at the level that we should, not at the level that every person, that's, I said you took action. Not at the individualized level. Right, you took action and emailed our team in and then we have done that.

We have done a good job of building a customer service team that's responsive, but I mean, there's a lot of people that buy every day that, you know, they get a welcome email. That's it, you know what I'm saying? They don't get a call from one that, you know, they get a welcome email. That's it. You know what I'm saying? They don't get a call from one of us. They don't get a call from someone on our team that's making sure that they got the right program, that they're being held. And so, you know, we're moving in that direction to get back to and it's going to be a major investment both time and financially to build that in place to where I want when somebody is like, okay, I know I want to get started.

I'm not sure if this is the right program or not or what I should be doing that you get touched by a person on our team that makes sure that you're being helped through that process. And so, you know, getting back to that is really, really important. And the fact that, I mean, I let us go this long and not do that was just like, it was like a total aha moment for me of like, man, what am I doing? Like, your most successful founders, right, your big, big entrepreneurs that everybody knows

the names of are always either obsessed with product or customer, obsessed. Like they don't talk about all the other details that entail scaling a big business that are also very important and difficult and whatever. They always, it's all about the customer, it's all about the product, whichever field you're in, whether you're into service business

where you're helping people, it's customer obsession. If it's about a product you're delivering, it's product obsession. And I lost that customer obsession that I believe we had when it was just nobody really, you know what I'm saying? When we were small, it was like, remember the way we made everybody feel

that just started listening to podcasts when it was, and it's like, so excited to really get back and move in that direction. So if you're an early listener or just getting started, you haven't bought a MOPs program, what's coming down the pipe for those people, I'm super excited to shift the business in that direction. Yeah, I love it.

I love it, Adam. All right, I got it. I got something. Do you guys know much about the capybaras, that animal? Aren't they the big rodents, like the biggest rodent? That's an animal? What is it? I'm not sure. Capybara. It looks like a massive rat. Yeah, like the biggest rodent. That's an animal, what is it? Happy barra. Looks like a massive rat.

Yeah, like a possum looking. They had like more of a flat nose. Like a pig, hairy pig kind of. It's a huge rodent, huge. Almost, yeah. I always thought like a possum was one of the biggest rodents. No bro, Kevin Barra's huge. Look it up, Doug.

Look up beside him. Almost like a big ass prairie dog or something. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. It's the world's biggest rodent. And they're like- Like a giant crown hog. Yeah.

What was trippy to me was just how they're going through, and they're walking in between this hundreds of crocodile predators, and none of them were being touched. Why? By the crocodiles? They have this weird like relationship with animals. What do you mean? Where it's like, it's beneficial on some level,

they're like super friendly, like all the animals, like get along with them. What are its predators? I think it's pumas and like some big cats. So crocodiles eat them because they're nice? I have no idea. It doesn't make any sense. Like they have some, they think maybe it's

some kind of pheromone or some, you know, thing like, you know, some kind of like chemicals they emit. I don't know. Yeah, other big cats, that's it. No, jaguars, pumas, and caimans. Caimans will get them. Yeah, well, OK, but not the crocodiles for some reason. Weird.

Look, it's right there next to a crocodile. Look at the picture. That's weird Just it's really weird. Do you watch these videos? like chilling and then they have this like Capybara's with other animals. Is it like show them with like all these apparently they get along with dogs Okay, like, you know like domesticated animals. Yeah, look at with the cat you can have it as a pet I didn't even know this was a thing. Yeah, they like chill with like every animal.

They're like really chill animals. You can have one as a pet. I was like, I kind of want one now. They seem like. They're super cute. Where are they? Where are they? South America?

No. Where are they from? Africa? Probably Africa with the crocodiles. I guess. That'd be fine. Sahara or something? I don't know.

I have never seen one of those before.ara or something, I don't know. I have never seen one of those before. Yeah, oh, go to Happy Hollow. South America, yeah, you're right. South America, there you go. Wow, but yeah, I was like, how does that work? How do you get so chill that every animal's The hippies of the

Oh, it's Capybara. Yeah, yeah, it's the dude. Just real, don't eat me dog. Why would you eat me, bro? Come Oh, it's Capybara. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the dude. Just chill. Don't eat me, dawg. Why would you eat me, bro? It's just... Hey, come on, man. My meat's tough. You know what I saw in my backyard yesterday?

A fox. Oh, yeah? Yeah, dude, a straight up fox. It was just chilling in my backyard. I wanted to go to your picture. What did it say? Stupid. Stop, dude.

Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Stop, bro. Hey, I gotta give credit to our partners at Caldera lab. Have you seen their website lately? No. If you go on the good, the serum, that's the one we like, right? The oil. They have their studies that they did legit studies. So 96% of people who use their product, like remark that they had significant improvement to their skin. They also now have before and after pictures. So they have a picture of a person's face before and after using the product for a little bit. And you can see the difference. I mean we've been saying that forever on the podcast. I could tell after one one application of it it's like you can tell

the difference. So I looked up all the ingredients. It's too long to talk about but I looked up all the individual ingredients. First of all they're all botanicals. Most ingredients the ingredients are botanical based. But they have ingredients in there that boost collagen production, that have microbiome balancing capabilities. Stimulate stem cells. That help with sebum production,

so you don't overproduce oil. This is why it's an oil that doesn't make your face oily. So like I can use it and I have oily skin, and it doesn't make my face like over oily. And then they have the before and afters which I thought, I was on their website this morning looking, I'm like oh my God, that's brilliant, so good. So I was using, I used for the first time the sunscreen.

So for the face, I used the, I don't know what the SPF is. Why are you using sunscreen? It's like 15. What do you mean, why, what do you mean? Lay out at a pool for five hours? You're brown, dude. Yeah bro, I can't, if I. What do you mean, what do you mean? Do I lay out at a pool for five hours? You're brown, dude. Yeah, bro, I can't, if I- Do you get sunburn?

No, what I get are like sunspots and bumps. So if I lay out, like my skin doesn't really get- You have like photosensitivity? I don't know what the scientific name is for what I get. But what I get is fucking sun blotches. Scientific jibbers. Like bumps. If I stay out with no, like I can handle no sunscreen out.

So you get the white spots. Yeah, well they're like a bunch, they're almost like a rash. Oh, that is photosensitivity a little bit. Like a heat, like okay, a heat rash. Yeah, like so that's what I'll get from it. I won't get red burn, but I'll get those all over. And it's typically after I've been out for a couple hours

with no protection at all. You know what helps with that what? Omega-3 fatty acids Taking them like yes orally yep taking them before before enduring and I just got that by the HVC you I got that vitamin C spray So I've been I mean I don't get it so long as I put a little bit of the protectant on, I don't get it. It's activating a little autoimmune issue in you. That happens to some people. Yeah, their sunscreen's good

because it's the mineral-based one. Oh boy, let me tell you. Do not look up the chemical-based ones and all the studies that they're now tying to what they do to your body and stuff and how much they build up in your system. Ugh, I don't even know how they're still available. It's crazy, yeah, it's wild.

I got some studies on temperature and sleep and how much it affects your sleep. Let me pull them up for you. So, actually makes a huge difference. A 2018 study, I know. But they actually have the numbers, okay? A 2018 study in the Journal of Physiological Anthropology showed that a rate for this,

just the two degree Celsius deviation above or below 64 degrees Fahrenheit, so 18 degrees Celsius. So I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but two degrees Celsius. Just the difference of that Increased wakefulness by 20% and reduced REM sleep by 15% Wow so little change in temperature Will have a cumulative Total negative effect on your sleep, you know speaking of that and then and well next up. They did a study on

Cooling technologies like eight sleep. This is what I was gonna bring up Improved sleep quality by 10 to 15% across the board. Just that alone. Nothing else, 10 to 15%. I think it's way more than that. I mean, that's a neat study, but I'll tell you right now, it makes a night and day difference for me. So much that I'm so mad that,

so I don't know if I told you this, and I've been doing it for a while now, where I've started to use the warming up feature of it also to wake you up Yeah to wake me up, which is great. You need your alarm when you do that, huh? Do you need alarm? Oh, no Isn't that wild? Yeah. Well, so here's a caveat to this, right? So We went to we just got back from Vegas. We didn't get home till 1 30 in the morning I showered by time I went till 1.30 in the morning. I showered. By the time I went to bed, it was 2 in the morning. So I'm planning on sleeping in for Father's Day. And the damn bed.

The damn, yeah, I forgot that I had the warm. I mean, it's all AI now. So it's been set forever. I don't even think about it. And never do I have to worry about, I don't ever get to really sleep in past 7 o'clock in the morning. So what, that it wakes me up any other day during the week?

Or whatever that. But I don't normally stay up tillclock in the morning. So, so what that it wakes me up any other day during the week or whatever that but I don't normally stay up till two in the morning. And so I was like, I get woken up from the heat. I'm so mad that I didn't shut that off. And then by that time, I was like, I'm up, you know, like I wanted to sleep in. That was the plan. But the bed warm, warm, it does such a good job of like, is that what time you guys got home? Oh, it was even worse for me like he's later probably yes so i had to go home and um i get so far as to like almost three quarters of the way home and then the the whole freeway is like closed what why and they were shuttling people there i guess there was a fatality and so we had to go the back roads and so everybody going to the back roads at the same time was like just crawling oh my god I didn't get home till 2 30 and then yeah probably

went to sleep at like 3 I'm so glad I didn't so because I decided to leave the next morning it was just a that would have been brutal that's why I decided I didn't start laughing I ended up worse I mean I had to wake up a 430 a.m. to fly more brutal for me It's okay. You know why I can sleep on the plane. Well, you also get up early So it's not this so it's not a deal you getting up an extra hour early. That's getting up like four hours early for me I'd be anticipating a different day So as much as it was late for me and I'm bitching like I still wouldn't have done that different no way

I was like that was the way to go I mean I was but I also have to like, I can't fly on a plane and not shower afterwards. I've got to shower. So when I get home, I had to shower and then that took another 20 minutes. And then, so it was close to two in the morning. I took, so I was flying Southwest on the way back, right?

So you had the little tiny seats. Oh, gosh. Dude, don't even get me started on that. Oh, bro. So, and listen, if you're like any bigger than average, those seats just suck, right? So, I'm in my seat. I've done my share.

And I had A, you know, cause you know, Katrina books it for me, so it's like A, I'm in first, right? So I sit near the front, cause I wanna get off the plane when the plane lands, by the way. I have a thing with that. I hate staying on the plane when it lands.

I just wanna get the hell off. So I always sit near the front. So I'm sitting in the front, I'm in the next to the window, and it's filling up, filling up, filling up, filling up, and giant dude sits on the other chair, but there's a middle one that's open. So I'm like, oh, no one's gonna sit in the middle.

I'm spilling over. Why would you do that? This dude that's twice as big as me is over there. I'm like, this is gonna be great. Nope, full flight. So the last person was another big dude who got to sit. Yeah, dude. So we're just touching knees and elbows the whole time.

So Justin and I, we were A also, and we got him and I sat, he sat on the window, I sat on the aisle, and so I was like, oh yeah, two 200 plus pound guys, everyone's gonna walk past us, and they were. But then I hear the lady go like, this is a completely full flight of shit. I'm like, I told Jess, I'm going to grab the next kid that

just walks by. Just grab him by his shirt. Come on, grab him. We made out, though. We had kind of a petite lady that sat next to us, so it worked out. But I was like, you're just rolling the dice at that point. You think it's a good strategy.

If it's not a full flight, great strategy. Yeah. If it's full, you're screwed. the dice at that point you get you like you think it's a good strat If it's not a full flight great strategy. Yeah have to be full your screwed Yeah, if it's full not and then because what happens is all the early people see you and they're gonna like fuck No, I ain't sitting there and they start working the way back and then it's like you get whoever the last person is So you just got so I have a strategy. I'm gonna share it right now. You're gonna probably shouldn't give it away I'll ask them and I didn't ask them this time, but I'll ask them, is it a full flight? If they say no, I'll sit in the aisle seat of where I want to sit, and I put my headphones on, and I close my eyes like I'm asleep,

and I'm like, nobody's gonna bother me to walk by me, and usually it works. Nobody wants to bother the big dude who looks like he's asleep to get by to the other seat. So usually it's like, I end up with my own aisle. What a dada, such a jerk. Everybody has taxis like that. I just mean bugger. You have people that put their stuff, you know what I end up with my own aisle. I was such a jerk. Everybody has taxis like that. You have people that put their stuff,

you know what I'm saying, with their backpack. Justin just fart. Nobody will sit here. Oh, oh, oh, you're gonna sit here, dude. I mean, we're tall enough and big enough that you don't even have to try. And you know people walk by and go like this. How do you like strongmen do it?

What do they do? They have to get two tickets. It's hilarious. Yeah, I've seen pictures of like Robert Oberst and like some of those guys there's no way airplane there's no way you can fit in the chair yeah they fill up there's no way halfway in the other sea never fly Southwest you just can't do it yeah you got that reverb it's rare that we do right if it's a tiny short flight it's I've told the assistant that like that's the only time

you can get me is if it's a LA or Vegas flight where I've told the assistant that that's the only time you can get me, is if it's a LA or Vegas flight, where I'm on that plane for an hour, I can do any more than that. I'll take another day, take another flight, whatever when I'm flying. Here's how big of a wimps we are. I got this funeral coming up, and I'm gonna talk about

my uncle coming over here when he was a boy, and this and that. And man, my grandmother came across the ocean on a boat on the last class. So whatever that is, like first, second, third class, which means she's on the bottom. And all she, she had her son with her and her didn't speak any English

and all they had for food was a block of cheese and they made it across. And the the boat the ship broke down in the middle the ocean and had to get fixed and like we're complaining because an hour flight this is too small anyway I want to announce this again because we still have applicants coming in if you want to be a trainer or coach and work for us we are still taking applications but make no mistake this is a it is not easy to get hired by us so you got it you'll get put through the wringer but if you think you got what it takes go to mind pump personal training comm forward slash apply.

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How you doing, Sam? Hi, guys. Yeah, good, thanks. How are you? Good, good. How can we help you? So basically, I've just asked after your help for, I've basically been trying to lose weight and gain fitness

for years and years now. But from listening to you guys recently I've realized that I might have been doing it completely wrong so I've been as you mentioned before like just adding on more and more volume more and more volume in less and less calories and that's the way I've been going about it and it's obviously not been working. I've recently started doing maps 15 just as a sort of starter thing. I thought I'd pick max 15 as a first program to pick from you guys. I followed it to the letter. I'm on just about to start phase three. I actually just had to do the last week of phase two again because

I've got this tattoo and then I had to have some time off. So I started again from the last week of phase two so I'm just about to start phase three tomorrow and yeah I'm just basically I'm not getting the results that I'm expecting, not from the MAPS program, but everything I've been doing in the past. So in the past, I've been trying to do HIIT, cardio, strength training, all of it at the same time. And I think I'm completely over training. My diet is intermittent fasting, but when I eat eat I do eat good food but I'm pretty

sure I'm not eating anywhere near the amount of calories that I need to. So I've heard you guys talk about reverse dieting in the past and I don't really understand how that works but I think it might be something that I need to look at to get my calories back up. Okay let's talk about the last couple months since following Maths 15. Are you doing the free weight version or the suspension trainer version? I'm doing the advanced one, yeah the free weight version. Have you seen any changes in your strength and performance in the gym? Yeah, yeah I have seen I'm definitely lifting heavier now than I was when I started. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. That's good side

All right, so you're progressing moving moving in the right direction for sure. Yeah Okay calories wise. Let's talk about this for a second um Do you know what your caloric intake is now? Um, I don't i've never tracked Okay, that's not more calories. That's where you're at. That's where I would start. You know, if you're eating whole foods, you're exercising now You're following our program You're backed off on all the over training

What you've probably accomplished so far is a nice Level of fitness, but it sounds to me like you're looking to go kind of next level yeah, this is when you start to track and get some numbers and This will give you an idea of where you're at and then where you need to go. I'm willing to bet your intuition is probably spot on. I'll tell you this, the fact that you were able just to switch over to Mass 15 and see strength gains and so progress in the right direction is a really good sign and if you already think you're probably under eating nutrients, in particular protein, and then actually still getting stronger in spite of that, that's a

really good sign. That means if we actually, so let's say you decide you actually go track and you find out, oh, wow, shit, I was right, I'm only eating 6070 grams of protein every day. And I still was able to progress what I did, we really dial that in, and go after hitting your to progress what I did, you really dial that in and go after hitting your body weight, right, in grams of protein consistently while still sticking to like a MAP-15 protocol, I think you're going to see, I think you're going to see it accelerate really quick.

That could be a difference maker right there. Like you could be seeing a little bit of progress just simply from the good programming and the better balance of exercise. And then the only thing you're lacking right now is really dialing in the nutrition part. Because if you're turning around, you're doing all this great workout, but then you're eating say 1500 calories a day and 60 grams of protein, it's going to be really hard for you to build muscle like that. Whereas if you just make an effort to go, okay, now I'm gonna stick on the Mass 15

and I'm not changing anything there, but I'm gonna make an effort for the next 30 days, I'm not gonna miss my, say whatever your number is, 170 grams of protein every day. And then you do that, I guarantee in 30 days, you're gonna see a significant difference just by simply doing that. Do you know, what's your target body weight?

Target body weight is about 65 kilograms. I'm at 70 at the minute. Okay, so 65 kilos What is that in pounds? It's like a hundred and close to the number of 50 Would you say maybe a hundred is it about 160 something is it? Let me see 65 times 2.2. Let me do the math here real quick Yeah, about a hundred and forty three. Okay, so So I would aim for about a about 150 grams of protein a day. And you could just track that. Yeah, just track that. Don't worry too much about the other calories. Eat when you're hungry.

Make it protein-centric. Because if you're eating good choices, the thing that might be challenging, Sam, I don't know how much of a fan I am of you trying to do this while intermittent fasting. Yeah, how many meals are you having a day with that? Yeah, so I'm having two meals a day Yeah, lunch that's gonna be really hard So you would have to eat if you were just doing two meals a day to hit those targets You would need 75 grams of protein per meal

That's a lot, which is a lot of protein in one meal and they could I mean once I get to 60 or so I start to argue fool, I get full. Yeah, you're gonna wanna spread that out. So what you might wanna do is eat 50 grams of protein three times a day, and maybe one of those meals is a shake if you wanna make it real easy. But hitting your protein targets. So if you're only eating two meals a day,

I would venture to say you're probably closer to 80 grams of protein a day. Or less, or less. Which is really low for a guy who's trying to build muscle and with a target of 150. So I think if you just start there, I think Adam's spot on. And it wouldn't require you to track everything else.

Yeah, I think that's just a great goal. It's just, I'd kind of throw out the whole intermittent fasting thing, trying to follow some sort of time window eat when you're hungry make whole food choices hit just track the protein hit that consistently for 30 days while you're following max 15 I'm willing to bet you see a big change just in 30 days how would give me a typical your give me to your both of your typical meals how much meat would you say is in each of those meals? So, yeah, I mean, today it'd be pretty typical.

So, I have started recently, last sort of month or so, trying to put a breakfast in there. So, today for breakfast, I'd a tin of mackerel. I do sometimes try and have sardines, but I can't really stomach them. So, mackerel's the next thing. A one tin of mackerel, I do sometimes try and have sardines, but I can't really stomach them. So you had one tin of mackerel. So typically that's about 25 to 30 grams of protein. Yeah, I think it says between 20 and 25 it says on the tin. Okay, so 25.

And a banana, that'll be for breakfast. Okay. And then lunch, a handful of nuts, two chicken thighs, and a few portions of fruit. And then tea, chicken, wasn't quite half a chicken, half a chicken minus the chicken breast. Plus homemade chips and broccoli, so that's what I've had today, and that's pretty typical.

Yeah, you're about 100 grams of protein. Or less. Or a little less, probably. Of course you have tea, you're in the UK. I heard you throw that in there. My wife's family's from the UK, they have tea all the time, it's great. So I think that I might struggle to get any more

sort of actual food, so you think maybe a shake. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I you think maybe a shake? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would throw in, I would throw in a shake like a 30 gram shake with breakfast and maybe another one before bed. Yeah. Unless you can eat the food. I did hear you mention on an episode recently about drinking a glass of milk with every meal. Yeah. That's a good strategy. That's a great strategy. You could do that. I don't know if you'll hit the protein targets with a glass of milk with every meal. Yeah, that's a good strategy. If you can handle milk, it can be good. That's a great strategy. You could do that.

I don't know if you'll hit the protein targets with a glass of milk, because we're looking at adding about 50. Calorie-wise, it's so funny. Those little Greek yogurts are incredible. They make them now with like 20 grams of protein in those little Greek yogurt cups, and those are easy to get down.

Those are like huge hacks for down. I love those are like huge hacks for me. I always keep I've got those in my refrigerator all the time and so if I'm down I need a quick 20 grams I can eat easily two or three of those in a day. One sitting I can eat too easy that's 40 grams right there so that's an easy that's an easy light one to throw at the end of the night or whatever. I love that so if you if you have Greek yogurt or ever eat that like that's a great throw a little bit of blueberries on it or fruit tastes amazing. I love yogurt and uh okay put some frozen frozen blue blue yeah blue blue in it yeah yeah and uh usually put a few spoonfuls of seeds in it as well

yeah yeah no that's exactly what I do so that's great and so add that add that in the day I mean the big thing is this just make a goal for yourself I I'm gonna give 30 days and I'm not gonna miss 150 grams a day. Just watch what happens if you do that for 30 days straight. You will see a physical difference in your physique by doing that and following, just that alone. That'll make a difference. And do you think that that will, the main thing that I'm trying to, that I'm trying to, uh, change is, is, is my stomach. So I've always, I've always had for the last sort of probably 20 years is some, some belly fat. Like I look pretty decent in a vest.

My arms look good. My chest looks fine, but my stomach always carry my weight there. Yep. Yep. So what'll, what'll probably happen through what we're saying is you'll see body composition change. So I don't know if your weight will change on the scale, but you'll build some muscle and probably get leaner as a result. Yeah, if we're guessing right, which I feel pretty

confident in what's going to happen here, is you should notice at the end of the month you will feel and look a little more muscular and you'll notice like you've leaned out a little bit in your stomach. Just a little bit. And the'll notice like you've leaned out a little bit in your stomach. Just a little bit. Like you, and the scale will probably say pretty similar. You shouldn't see a major swing up or down on the scale. You should find, you should be able to, at the end of the month, this is what my client would say to me if you were my client, you'd probably go, man, Adam, I feel like I'm eating

more. I feel strong energy and I feel like my waist is starting to go down. It's not gonna be crazy. You're not gonna get shredded lean in 30 days, but you should feel like you're not only leaning out building muscle and then also feel like you're eating more. I mean, that's what we're looking for the next 30 days. And I feel confident that you'll feel that. And then now it's just a matter of consistency.

Okay, you've proved the model. That's what you need to do. Just keep doing that the next 30 days and watch. And then when you look back after 90 days, you're gonna be like, oh shit, okay, I get it. This is just it. This is what I need to do. Yeah. I think, I think now currently is the probably the most consistent I've been for a long time. Cause like I said, I used to just try and do all of the training as much training as I could possibly do. And then after three or four weeks I'd be shattered. Yeah that's most people saying. Yeah you feel good, you feel strong,

we're doing it right. Yeah and then I guess obviously I'm coming towards the Phase 3 of MAPS 15. Which other program would you recommend for like? 15 Performance. Yeah if it's working for you stick with the 15. Yeah, 15 Performance. We can send you the, we'll send you a MAPS 15 Performance, but that's a good balance of, especially from a guy who believes that he's already been over-trained and under-eating, that's a good place to be.

So I'd want you to be there through at least one or two times, two rounds. Before moving to like MAPS and a ball. Yeah, a ball could probably be the next progression. And that's what it would look like. What it would look like is we've ran those, you've seen great results over 90 days and you're like, man, I'm feeling great Adam, I'm eating more than I've ever ate, energy's up, okay, let's try maps and a ball now

and then that should then really take you off. All right, brilliant. And one last thing is with the maps 15, I said I've been following it to the letter, I have in terms of the exercises, the reps, rest times, all that sort of stuff. Only thing I've been doing different is, I've been doing two days at a time. So rather than doing day, it's fine.

Just because I didn't feel fulfilled from doing 15 minutes. So I was just doing it. So 30 minutes a day. So you're in there three days a week then or whatever Yeah, three days a week that works. I mean I usually do a bit of an abs session after the After the third day, okay, all right good. Yeah, I love that. I love that That's not bad all anything you add is walking so, you know get out walk. Take some good walks. That's right

Yeah, yeah, I've got two dogs, so they'll keep me. There you go. Perfect. Yeah, man. We're going to send over the Math 15 performance over to you so you have that to run through that and then stick to that for another 36 days. Eat your protein, man. Yeah, you'll be good, Sam.

Yeah. Yep. Brilliant. All right. All right, brother. All right, thanks for your help. Take it easy. What time is it over there?

Yeah, I know. It's going to be late, huh? Pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah, he's moving in the right direction. Protein makes such a big difference, you guys. I just read another study. Protein is interesting in the sense that it has a higher thermic effect than carbs and

fats, meaning when you eat protein, your body actually burns more calories with protein than it does with the other macros. So this whole calorie versus calorie versus calorie is a bit of an oversimplification. And so what you tend to see, and not just to mention, the side effects, the good side effects of building muscle, which tend to result in more fat loss. So sometimes bumping your calories through protein,

as in this case, means that you're gonna get leaner, which is interesting. There's also a massive difference between the amount of protein you need just to survive and be quote unquote healthy. Yeah, he's fine. Exactly, like he's not. It's not optimal.

And that's where there becomes all this debate and stuff that people read online Different it's like well according to this I'm getting enough to be like yeah But you want if you want to build muscle which will in turn speed your metabolism up which will in turn Lean your belly fat right so that you got it you want to be in the optimal number An optimal number is gonna be at least that 150 he could get away with 170 plus It'll be all right like that's you want to be at least that 150. He could get away with 170 plus and be all right. Like that's you want to be there and then someone like this who was who was that low and yet still seeing strength gains, you tweak that.

Watch what happens over the next 30 days for him. Our next caller is John from Tennessee. John, what's happening man? How you doing John? Sup guys, appreciate you guys taking my call and taking the time to, uh, to chat with me today. Yeah. So, uh, about three years ago, I was experiencing some different things in life and I went to the doctor and suspected, um, what I expected was true.

And my testosterone was very low within the, in the two hundreds. Uh, got on TRT, uh, since then I got back into the gym. I've been in and out of the gym, veteran and throughout my whole life, causing military experience and whatnot. So I've had ups and downs with gym. But anyway, got on TRT, got back in the gym. Since I got on TRT, I've lost 25 pounds. I'm doing much better, you know, in cholesterol, all kind of health issues kind of turned around, but I'm still on TRT, you know, 500 milligrams every two weeks. Anyway, my question is, you know, I've also experienced some injuries. I'm just recovering.

I'm about 20 weeks out from a bicep tenodesis in my left shoulder. I've had some stress fractures. I've had some, you know, just things of that nature. And you raise so much on the internet. What adverse effects does TRT have? Do they lead to torn biceps or torn tendons? Do they lead to, you know, some prostate issues? I've read some enlarged prostate side effect possible. Things of that nature. And should I consider coming off? You know, now that I'm 25 pounds lighter

and certainly healthier. And if I do come off, what's the best way to transition off of it? And then the final question I'd like to talk to you guys, if I do stay on it, if you're on TRT, is there any advantage to taking other supplements such as Ashwagandha, Tonkatali, or Asilajit, is that good or is that just a waste of money?

Yeah, so I'll throw those plethora of questions out at you. Yeah, John, appreciate the question. Good question. And again, I'm gonna preface this by saying we're not doctors, so we are gonna speak from our experience interviewing these experts and just from our own understanding. So here's what's interesting about TRT

is does it come with its own risks? It can, but not the ones that we tend to, the fear-mongering tends to promote. So I'll start with prostate enlargement. When you look at the current mountain of evidence on TRT, remember TRT brings your testosterone up to what would be considered a high normal. So it's bringing you within range.

Now beyond range, like what a bodybuilder will use, all bets are off. Because we don't have tons of data, long-term data around us. So we don't know What the long-term effects? Would necessarily be on a man who's taking you know, super physiological this yeah It was testosterone levels are at 10,000 or something like that, which which which a bodybuilder would definitely hit. Okay, but somebody that's within range We have lots of data on that and and no it doesn't. In fact, low testosterone has been more connected to issues of the prostate like cancer than the normal levels of testosterone.

In other words, the negative health effects of low testosterone are worse than the health effects of being on testosterone replacement therapy. That being said, it does come with its own risks precisely because when you're taking testosterone, no matter what, your testosterone levels are high. In a natural state, your testosterone levels will fluctuate based off of things like sleep and stress and over training. So can the risk of injury go up when you're on TRT as a

result of that? Yes. Why? Because you're not going to read the same signs and symptoms a natural guy is when he's overdoing it in the gym. You may be overdoing it in the gym and you'll get signs and symptoms of that but you still got this high testosterone and so it's gonna kind of numb or blunt some of those signals. Like for example what may happen with someone on TRT is they just go without sleeping well for longer Because they can push through and the negative effects from the poor sleep still cause health effects Whereas the guy on low T is be like I need some sleep I need some sleep because they're getting that they're getting they're hearing these signals much more loudly. The proper context in comparison is low testosterone

to replacement testosterone, not naturally good, healthy testosterone to testosterone replacement. That is not a fair comparison. That would be like me comparing someone on medication for diabetes to someone who doesn't have diabetes. That's not fair. I'd have to compare someone who has diabetes not on medication to someone who's on medication. That's an extreme example but I think it kind of communicates what we're talking about. So if you're

replacing testosterone and you're staying within range and the comparison is to where you were before with low testosterone. You're healthier. You're healthier. There's also this context here, which is hormones can be good or bad depending on the context of someone's life and health. So a man who's got an inflammatory diet, doesn't eat exercise, doesn't eat right, can high testosterone levels cause more problems? They can because in a natural state that person's testosterone levels will drop. So I think replacement therapy, keeping someone high testosterone who also otherwise smokes and drinks and doesn't exercise and eats crappy, that might not be a good thing. I'm speculating here but I would say that might not be a good thing. I'm speculating here, but I would say that might not be a good thing.

So I think replacement therapy is great if it's in comparison to low testosterone, especially in the context of like, I'm not doing all these other unhealthy things, I'm trying to stay healthy. And again, the data on this seems to show longer life, but definitely shows a better quality of life as a result. I want to talk a little bit more about

the potential injuries that happen with somebody who gets on TRT. In my experience, and this is including myself, when you go from somebody who's been at 200 level or testosterone, and then you put them on a you know, a dose that brings them up to the high level, they typically go, oh my god, I feel amazing. I mean, it's like life changing for them and so much that they start approaching their workouts, oh man, I could do more. Boy, last week I felt that more and it just feels so good to be lifting that much more weight and the next weight and it's typically that

Way of approaching the gym that ends up getting them hurt. It's not the testosterone that did it It's that if I would if you would have just lifted the way you would be lifting if you didn't have it You'd build muscle and you wouldn't get hurt But it's because we get so excited including myself of like man i'm feeling good and the weight's going up I got more i'm starting to feel like I was in my 20s again. I'm not in my 20s, you know? And I can't do that. That's exactly me.

47 and bench pressing, you know, 335. Yeah. Come on, John. Come on, John. Exactly, John. So my numbers normally range in the 800s. Yeah. Yeah, so you're high in the 800s. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so you're high normal. And that's great, that's great. And again, so in my experience, both personal and training lots of people that have been on TRT, is it has less to do with, it has nothing to do with the TRT, it has everything to do with our approach to the programming and how we work out. And so if you just continually remind yourself,

yeah, I know I could do 315 right now, but it's probably better for me to do 225 and just slow it down and just get a nice little pump and put, re-rack the weight, knowing I could do four or five more. Like to have that conversation with yourself, you'll be just fine. But we tend not to, we tend to do what we think we can do

and we keep pushing that until our body goes, nope, you're not supposed to be doing that. So that's probably the greatest challenge. I've seen more people overtrain when they get on TRT than people who aren't on TRT. Because they get on TRT and they suddenly feel good and they're like cool I'm going to double my workout volume and I'm going to go train my ass off. And they get away with it because their body doesn't lower their testosterone like it normally would,

but then it results in all kinds of different problems. And you also wanna consider this, muscles build and strengthen faster than tendons and ligaments do. Tendons and ligaments take longer. So if you suddenly, because you were low testosterone to high testosterone, you added 75 pounds to your squat

in four months, which is possible from going low T to high T, well, you can lift it, but you gotta give your tendons and ligaments a chance to catch up. So you gotta let your body, you gotta slow it down. So this is the risk that we communicate all the time to people who go on testosterone. Especially if you were an athlete when you were younger, you know you might be like, oh I used to be able to do this, but like

Adam said, like you know you're not 27, you're 47. So you know although you feel better, you're still 47. You know, this is why I got to tell myself this all the time. I mean I just, if I don't, it says that you're pretty new to listening to the podcast. Last year I did a whole docu-series of my comeback of, you know, being kind of sedentary for a while and then watch me come back and I put 20 pounds of muscle on in a month's time and I documented it on YouTube and what did I do? I ended up hurting myself because I literally went from starting off at deadlifting, you

know, 115 pounds within a month I was doing 300 something. And it's like, because I could, because I felt good. And I'm like, and yet here I am telling you this shit that I know better because I've seen it happen and then I end up pulling my hamstring. So that is the hardest thing is that, is knowing that I know I can do it, but should I do it? Probably not a good idea right now. And so that's the conversation. If you're gonna continue to do it and you know you already have those tendencies, remind yourself that of, just cause I can doesn't mean I should.

Yeah, and another way to put it is always listen to your body, but remember this. One of the signals of your body is not a natural signal. So it becomes a little more difficult to listen to your body because I got this, like no matter what, John, no matter what you do, you could lose sleep for three nights in a row and eat Twinkies all day long. Your testosterone's 800.

So that signal is not an accurate one. So you just gotta be a little bit more aware of that. That's all. So then the last part of the question, because I do take a, you know, a bucked up version of Rutt is the supplement that's got the ashwagandha and tanga. Is that a waste of money for somebody in my situation? No. Ashwagandha is not a waste of money. Well, both of them are.

Tanga, what about tanga and allium? Well, they're both adaptogenic. So they both have other effects and benefits on the body aside from raising testosterone. I think the raising testosterone part of what they do is more of an adaptogenic effect, meaning it's helping the body adapt to stress. In fact, if you look at the data, they're most effective in men with low testosterone. A guy who has good high testosterone typically doesn't see a change. But I think that's because of the adaptogenic herbs help the body adapt to stress. So in the low testosterone guy, many cases he's under too much stress for whatever reason.

And so now that their body's able to handle more stress, testosterone levels tenderize. Nonetheless, everybody will benefit from the adaptogenic effects of those products and herbs. I mean, I still take Ashwagandha here and there, and I still notice beneficial effects. All right. Well, I certainly appreciate you guys' time. You gave me a lot of food for thought. Yeah, you know, I am fairly new, I've searched and listened to all the episodes that pertain to HRT or TRT but my wife and I are both plugged in to you guys and listen quite frequently even to the level of information overload. Thank you for what you do, the

content you put out. It's a great show. I'm learning a lot and I appreciate it. Love that John. Just so you know too too we got a really cool tool it's called askmindpump.com and it's our AI so if there's like specific questions that you haven't found that we've talked about if you go to askmindpump.com literally type in the question and it'll speak back to you as if it was one of us talking to you and it also link you to episodes where we talk about it in depth. Awesome. Cool. All right, John. Thank you guys. You all have a great day.

You too, man. I've been meaning to talk about this topic. Yeah, no, I'm glad he asked this because we haven't, maybe we put this down as like a tip or like a conversation. Well, I'm going to bring it up because yeah, ligaments and tendons for sure. There's a reality here and the reality is that for the performance athlete, although TRT raises testosterone levels within range, in many ways, it is an advantage over the natural athlete because your testosterone won't go down.

Now that also could prove to be a detriment for the reasons that we said as well. Mass other signals. And that's it. And that the thing is it becomes harder to read your body. That's what I found for myself. I get after all the time and feel like Superman. Well, the reality is I have this artificial signal that isn't going to change regardless of what I do.

So I got to think about that and realize that. I would make the case that that is the biggest disadvantage. When you think about our experience and understanding of that and yet my dumb ass is still doing it. Yeah. I mean that just shows you how how much that like you take the average person who's just absolutely clueless of that. Your body would have told you. You get strong quickly too and so to balance that out is really you know that's that's key and it's not something you're really focused on. No because you can do it. Because you

can do it. Yeah. Our next caller is Nicole from Florida. Hey, how you doing? So, um, so I know you guys know Tom Conrad, so I work with him at Rock Recovery director here, so He's the one that kind of helped me to get it, you know, in touch with you guys. Awesome. So I guess I should just go ahead with my question. Right. Let's hear it.

Yeah. All right. So I've been, so I've been yo-yoing with my weight for years. So essentially to kind of do cliff notes version, I'm struggling with consistency as far as a routine with going to the gym. I recently got off laxapro after being on it for five years, so that's been a challenge. And so working out, exercising,

I've been trying to incorporate that back into my life to kind of offset some of the symptoms I've been feeling from coming off of that. I just struggle with this all or nothing thinking when it comes to working out and just eating. And I've just been my, it's been an ongoing issue for years and I'm frustrated, but I'm also just trying to come up with something that's going to help me, um, kind of stay consistent. That's been my, my biggest issue.

Okay. I love this question. Yeah, I could, I think I know, um, I think I know the direction to go. First off, I think using exercise as a way to, for some of the reasons why you're reusing Lexapro, which is an SSRI for people who don't know, I think is great. I know the data supports it tremendously. I also think creatine would be good for you. They're also showing benefits, enzyolytic and antidepressant effects, especially in women from the use of creatine. It's also a great supplement for fitness and health and longevity and muscle. So I would recommend using creatine between 5 to 10 grams a day for

those reasons. And you can look it up yourself, Nicole, you have a background in this, so you can actually look up creatine for General depression or you know those effects in women though. You'll find some cool studies Okay, so I think I know why the the root of why this happens For someone like you and it's just it's very common. This is super suit This is the most common challenge that people have when it comes to fitness. And the root of it is the relationship that you have with both fitness and diet. We have to solve that relationship.

Otherwise this is always going to be a struggle. So I'm going to paint the picture of what this relationship tends to look like. Uh, and then I'll, I'll explain why this results in this on off again, uh, kind of cycle, okay. So I'll, I'll, I'll just, I'll, I'll explain why this results in this on, off, again kind of cycle. Okay? So I'll just, I'll create a story. I'll tell you a story. So you have somebody, you have a guy, John, he looks in the mirror and he looks at himself and he goes, oh man, I'm out of shape, or I'm fat, or I don't look good, or whatever. this is terrible. I don't like the way I look. I feel gross. Just lots of negative thoughts. I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm start changing my diet. And so very strong motivation initially. And so he

goes to the gym because he hates how he looks. He hates himself. Can't stand what has happened. Why did I do this to myself? I gotta get better, I gotta do these things, I gotta be more consistent. And he goes to the gym. And the relationship that develops from that is a relationship where the workouts are a punishment because he's hating himself. Now initially, this works great.

This is a very strong motivator initially and he's very consistent. In fact, it feels good It's cathartic to beat himself up Initially he goes to the gym from this initial motivation of self-hate He beats the crap out of himself and he feels accomplished. Yeah, you know god I ate that bad food I'm gonna go just I'm gonna work it off. I'm gonna go sweat it out and then people ask him How was that workout? Oh my god, I barely walked out of the gym. What a great workout.

Why does he feel that way? Because he hates himself and the workout is a punishment. Then when he goes for diet, it sounds something like this. Hey, would you like some pizza, John? And John says, no, I can't. Hey John, do you wanna have this cookie? No, I can't. Now what's happened here is he's viewing food

as something that he restricts. And what has happened is the relationship he's created with food is he has separated himself into this tyrannical parent that says you can't eat this, you need to eat a different way,

and so it's like I can't, I can't, I can only eat this, I can't, I can't do it. And so it's like, I can't, I can't, I can only eat this. I'm, I can't, I can't do it. And so it's this restrictive relationship. Now that works for a short period of time. In fact, people can beat the crap out of themselves for a long time before everything falls apart. And here's what happens when it falls apart. You can't hate yourself forever.

You can't punish yourself in the gym forever and you can't restrict yourself forever. And what it typically looks like is you rebel against this hate and the rebellion looks like this. I don't have one cookie. I have a whole box of cookies. I don't miss one workout. I'm done.

I'm not, I just, I'm done. I can't do it. I'm not going to go and then I'm not going to go and then I'm not going to, and I don't go for a long time until I build up enough hate to get myself to go again So that tends to be what happens. So the relationship with exercise is punishment and the relationship with food is restrictive or reward Now I'm gonna give you another scenario

We're gonna go back to John John looks in the mirror and he says oh Man, I haven't been taking care of myself man, I haven't been taking care of myself. I really haven't been taking care of myself. I deserve to be cared for because I'm a person and I think I need to take care of myself. I'm gonna go to the gym. Now the gym becomes self-care. The workouts are more appropriate.

It's not cathartic to beat the crap out of myself. In fact, when I go too hard, I realize I went too hard and I'm not caring for myself. Diet is not restrictive. Diet is self-care. So then when somebody comes up to him and says, hey, do you want this pizza? Do you want a cookie?

He says, no thanks, I don't want it. Instead of I can't. And sometimes he says, yeah, I'll have one. Because balance is baked into self-care. That's the only relationship that turns into a long-term, consistent relationship with fitness and exercise. Now, there are people who can hate themselves for the rest of their lives.

Those are the orthorexics, those are the body dysmorphia types, those are the people that abuse things like anabolic steroids or who starve themselves or who have placed their body on an altar that they worship and that is not healthy as well. So it has to come from there Nicole. If you start to try and this is a relationship so like all relationships it requires work. If you work on this in the right way then the how can become effective. Alright well now that I'm caring for myself what are the most effective ways to exercise for myself and you're more likely to pick the appropriate ways to do it. The diet also becomes more tailored because you

know what's gonna happen sometimes. Sometimes you're gonna be with your friends, you haven't seen them in a while, you want to connect over some wine or some pizza or your friend baked you a cake and you'll have a little bit and it's connecting because food isn't just fuel, it is, but it's also connecting. It's also, you know, being with people, that stuff. So it has to start from that root, otherwise it's gonna always be this on, off, again, on, off, again. So in other words, you can't shame and hate yourself into good health. It just doesn't work. Nicole, I want to add to how common this is. It's so common. There's a reason why you hear us communicate the way we do around nutrition to most people that are listening to this podcast, which is, I don't care what your goal is, when I start somebody out on their journey of tracking food

or eating better, we go after things. So instead of restricting and saying, I can't, I can't do that, I shouldn't do that, that makes me fat, it's my body needs this. I want to build muscle, I want to be strong, I want to feel good, I love when I feel that way. I need this many grams of protein and I passed on the pizza today because I noticed I was only at 10 grams and I need to get to 130 by the end of the day. So that's the only reason why I'm passing on it because I need to take care of myself less of I can't because it's going to make me fat. It's no, I need to go get this protein because that's what's going to build my muscle. That's what's going to make me feel better. And so when we talk about nutrition, we always talk about teaching people how to go after certain foods that nourish your body, that take care of your body,

because you want to take care of yourself. And so that is the way you position it. That conversation, learning to have that with yourself through this process is paramount to the success and consistency. If it comes from a place of I can't, I shouldn't, I'm fat, I'm bad, I'm this, even if that works temporarily, we always know, one of us can always tell when we meet somebody who may even be having success that way, whether they're gonna be able to keep going or not,

it's like, oh yeah, the wheels will fall off. Maybe she gets another couple months, maybe if she's got crazy discipline and she wants to punish herself that bad, but eventually she will rebel from this. Eventually she'll throw her hands up and be like, why am I doing it? And you'll hear people say, well why did you go off your diet or why did you stop working out? I just want to enjoy life. Well yeah, you don't want to be in that relationship anymore. You broke up with that abusive relationship. Of course you want to just enjoy life. But the truth is, exercising appropriately and properly and eating in a way that's healthy

improves the quality of your life. And then I want to add to the nutrition one I talked about, and I want to add about the exercise one. You'll hear me on the podcast always say the thing where it's like the goal is to do as little as possible to elicit the most change. So when I go into the gym, I am not seeking out an abusive beating where I'm dying after I work out and go, oh, that was a good workout. Like, no, it wasn't. I want to get, I want to do just a few things. If I did nothing last week, one or two exercises in the gym for 15, 20 minutes is more than what I was doing and it's going to make my body feel good. And I'm gonna walk out going like, oh yeah, I feel good, I could've done more.

That's great, that's what I'm looking for. Try and build upon that versus seeking out these crazy punishment type workouts that so many people do. That's the approach. So in other words, the most important thing that you need to work on is your relationship to exercise and diet.

Not the exercise itself or the diet and what I'm eating. It's the relationship. So what does that look like? I'll give you some tangibles. You should feel better after your workout than you did going into it. That only fosters a good relationship. You should start to, when you eat,

become aware of how you feel before, during, and after so you can get a more complete picture of how this food is serving me. And then here's something else for someone like you because I see in your notes here that you talk about weight gain and weight loss. Here's a nice segue to get your mind off of that. Don't weigh yourself, you're done with the scale.

Okay. And I want you just, here's what you're going to pay attention to in the gym because this will serve you better. Now this isn't the only way you're going to go forever but right now this is going to serve you. Just get stronger. That's all I want you to pay attention to. Am I stronger? If I'm getting stronger I'm moving in the right direction. Don't weigh yourself. Don't study yourself in the mirror. You can look in the mirror but don't do the thing where you're you know you look in the mirror. Right. Oh well this is not right or this isn't this or this isn't that like that's gonna that's gonna move you that's

gonna move you to the bad relationship. So avoid studying yourself. Get stronger in the gym. I'll send you one of our programs if you don't have one already and work on this relationship and then here's what it looks like Nicole I promise you this is what it looks like you're gonna become one of those people that enjoys working out like you just like it and you're gonna become one of those people that eating healthy is actually I like it I actually like this this is this is enjoyable to me because food again isn't just the the flavor and the experience. That's part of it.

That is a real value. But there's so many other values that we ignore because we're so focused on whether it tastes good or whether I'm restricting that we don't even notice all these other values. So what happens is you develop this relationship where balance, like, you know, of course I eat pizza sometimes, of course I eat these things sometimes, but it's naturally balanced. It's not this like, I can't do it. It's like, I think I want that or actually I don't want that right now.

And that's what develops over time by doing this the right way. And I want to add one more layer to how this evolves over time also. So let's pretend you're my client and the week goes by and we hit our three workouts for the week and you're eating the way we're talking about and you have this, oh, I want to look at the scale, I want to compare the mirror, I feel like I'm not making any progress. And part of that is because we are constantly fixated on how we look or what the scale says back to us and we're actually losing touch with all the other things that taking care of yourself provides. So what it looks like for me, I go, Nicole, how'd you sleep?

How do you feel throughout the day? How did you do on that test? How'd you do at work? How was your work performance? What kind of mood have you been in? That's right. I'm wanting you to connect to, how does your hair, how does your skin feel?

There's so many things that feeding our body properly and exercising does for us when it comes to all these other benefits. How's your stool? How's your stomach and digestion does for us when it comes to all these other benefits. How's your stool? How's your stomach and digestion feeling? How does it feel? If you know what it's like to feel, you know, like digestive issues or bloat and things like that,

like have you noticed, like, oh yeah, you're right. I haven't had that. And oh wow, you're right. I have slept good. And oh wow, I have been in a good mood. And oh wow, I have been really productive at work. And oh wow, you know, helping you make the connections to all the other things that taking care of yourself provides you because then you start to look at exercises like oh it's not just a means to a number on the scale

or a shape in the mirror. I do it because it gives me all this other amazing shit. You now develop a complete relationship and that that's healthy one. And then that right there is what will keep you going forever. Because I don't care how ripped and amazing you look in number, you reach on the scale, because that's doable. But those people that are focused on that, that reach that goal, end up realizing like, oh shit, I'm still unhappy. I still have, I still have a poor relationship.

Like it's not what everyone thinks it is. Everyone thinks it's this look or a number and it's not. It's like if you don't find a way to do this, then health and fitness will not be a way of your life the rest of your life. If you do learn how to do this, you'll never stop doing it because you might have periods of time

where you're more aggressive, more motivated, and more in a rhythm, other times you're not, but it'll always be a part of your life because you've connected the dots to all the other things that it provides you. I'll give you two tangibles, just because now we've talked kind of big picture, let's get specific.

I'm gonna send you Maps 15. That's the program I want you to follow. I want you to try to walk after breakfast, lunch, and dinner just for five to 10 minutes, that's it. And I want you to try to eat mostly or all whole natural foods, that's all. So try to avoid foods that come in a box or a wrapper process.

Just do that right there while doing all the other stiff stuff that we talked about and then watch what happens. You're not gonna have her target protein right now? No, not yet, let's just do that. Okay, you have no idea, like my mind is just, like this was like a God moment for me, because I'm doing a lot of work on myself right now, internally, and like I'm just holding back tears,

because you have no idea how much that resonated, so thank you. Yeah, your background, I know you work with people in addiction, right? I do. What's your background? As far as like myself or like my credentials. Credentials.

I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I bet one of the reasons why what we're saying resonates so much, one of the reasons is because you probably communicate like this to people who are struggling with lots of other challenges. It's a grace-based model. And it's the only thing that works. The only other options are I stop and I hate it, or I become a body dysmorphic orthorexic, which we have plenty of those in my space.

That's it. Everybody ends up here at one point, Nicole. Everybody does. Everybody at one point. And what's wild to Sal's point, like, I mean, we talk about this all the time. So many people have no idea some of these crazy physiques and bodies that we all admire. Some of the most unhealthy people. They haven't even reached this point yet. All they have proven is that they can beat themselves up and punish themselves and hate themselves longer than you. Like that's what they've proven. Many of them, very very few of them have a really healthy relationship with exercise and food. And what you see is just a manifestation of the abuse. You see a shell. And, and it's put on as a facade and these people are out there coaching

and teaching, helping other people. But eventually everybody lands where you're at right now. Eventually you realize like, this is just not, you can't do this. Like I'll always be on and off the wagon until I solve this. So. A hundred percent. It's a, it becomes a mask and it's an ego form and defense mechanism for the internal stuff that they're not addressing.

100%. 100%. I've been trying to work from the inside out, so this has been super helpful. I wish I had more time to tell you guys, but I just wanted to let you know thank you, because you have no idea how much this is resonating with me. Good, well you're a friend of Tom's,

so if you need anything else, ask him for my phone number, you can text me personally if you need anything, any ask him for my phone number, you can text me personally if you need anything, any other questions. But we'll send you, you got it, we'll send you Mass 15 and you guys do really good work out there. Really appreciate what you guys do. We love what you guys do. Thank you, Nicole.

I appreciate that so much, thank you guys. You got it. You have a good one. Thank you. Bye. Yeah, that was good. I appreciate the opportunity to communicate that because you know, there's lots of great information that we can give people, the ones and zeros and the how and

the how not. But this is like the root. That's the nucleus of everything. This is the root. This is, bro, this is so everybody. Just a different place. Everybody does come to this point. You do. At one point, including all of ourselves right our part are then this number or percentage of people like this that it's at one point you realize the Obsessing over the mirror and the scale and and letting that be the thing that drives It's a terrible God that will tear it

Sure, and I know it will it always. It will always lose. It will eventually. And just some of us are crazy enough to be able to fight it or to punish ourselves for years. To serve this tyrannical false god is what happens. And it's such a freeing thing to unlock this and realize that oh my God, when I eat well and when I exercise, it does so many other amazing things. It enables my life. it is not my life.

That's right, 100%. And so I'm excited for her to go put it to work and stuff like that and see what happens. Our next caller is Danielle from Colorado. Hey Danielle. Hello. Hey, how are you? Good, how are you, how can we help you?

Oh, doing well. Thanks for taking my question. I'm excited to be on today. All right, thank you. I've been listening to the podcast for about nine months when my neighbor introduced me and we started lifting together. I'll tell you a little about me

and what's been going on with my lifting struggles and hopefully you guys can help me out. I'm a 40 year old mom with two young girls and I have a passion for fitness and nutrition. We have a really active family we like to spend a lot of time outdoors. And I've been lifting since I was about 16 years old. I've done some progressive overload in the past. But that was really before I was. And so recently, in the last year and a half, I've

been focusing on progressive overload training. And so recently in the last year and a half, I've been focusing on progressive overload training. And I was using an app for about a year. And then in November, I wanted to try some different things and work on different goals. And so my neighbor had maps aesthetic and I started doing that with her. But that quickly became too much volume for me. And so I went to a four-day upper-lower split, but I started to develop some tricep pain and quad pain, and I think it was just too much on any particular body part per session. So after that I tried MAPS-40, and I really liked the first phase, but then the second phase got to be too much volume again and I started to have some shoulder pain.

So right now I'm doing a three day full body split with two sets for each of the kind of main compound lifts and then a little bit less for the accessory lifts. My tricep and my quad pain has gotten a lot better, but I'm still having some shoulder pain. So it's been kind of a frustrating six or so months for me because every time I try to push the weight in a particular lift, like a deadlift, I injured my lower back. And then when I tried to push with the squat or the Bulgarian split squats. My quads started having issues.

And then with my elbow, I started having pain while doing the bench press. And right now I'm bench pressing the same weight as I'm squatting, which seems kind of weird to me. But really my ultimate goal right now is to get stronger. And I'd like to progress in some body weight movements like pull-ups, push-ups, pistol squats, caustic squats, those sorts of things. For my workout schedule I generally have 45 minutes, three or four

times a week to lift and then on my non lifting days I enjoy other activities with the family like hiking and biking. I played disc golf, but I've been frustrated and feeling lost in the last five or six months. And I just don't know where to go from here in terms of my lifting and how to progress in these lifts because every time I increase the weight, I seem to develop some new injury. On a typical week, because you say, you know, hiking and biking and you do these other

disc golf, like, what's a typical week? Like, every week, are you doing one or two of those things? What's it kind of look like? Yeah, probably. I try to bike once a week. But that that is kind of more summer activities. So I'm just kind of getting back into biking. And then hiking, we usually do that once a week with the family and maybe disc golf once a week. Okay. You might just be doing over- Yeah, you're moving in the right direction. So with your volume, you notice some improvements by redo.

By the way, MAPS aesthetic is too much volume for 90% of people. Very much everybody. Yeah. MAPS 40, you know, MAPS 40 plus is more appropriate, but it's still on the higher end of volume. I would say it's appropriate for a lot of people, but it's still on the higher end of volume.

When it comes to strength training, you have to find the right dose. It's not about how much I can do and get away with. It's what's going to get me moving in the right direction. I think Maps 15 would be a good protocol for you and I think you'd see some progress. The other thing I'd like to talk about is diet and I'd like to look there. And sometimes what you see with kind of injury rates

going up, there's typically two things. One could be poor sleep or inconsistent sleep. That's a very common one. The other one is either protein or fat or both are too low. that's a very common one. The other one is, uh, either protein or fat or both are too low. So let's, let's start with diet. What does your diet look like? Um, so I was in a cut for the last, I

don't know, 12 to 16 weeks, but I'm not very great at keeping to lower calories. So I was trying to hit 1700 during the cut, but, um, I was probably only consistent with that, like 30 to 50% of the time. So I generally, my maintenance is like 22 to 2300 calories. I try to get like 130 grams of protein a day, and my fat is definitely probably over 70 grams a day.

Good, good. By the way, progressively overloading while you're in a cut is a terrible idea. They don't go well together. In a cut the idea is to maintain muscle which is a great, like if you lose body fat and maintain muscle you're doing a great job. Trying to build while in a cut is a risky business and that tends to either result in over training or injury or both. What about sleep? How's your sleep? Sleep I probably average maybe seven and a half hours a night.

So it's pretty good. I don't wake up a lot in the night. Occasionally you have those nights but overall it's pretty good. And you take a multivitamin, no nutrient deficiencies? I don't take a multivitamin but I eat a mostly? I don't take a multivitamin, but I eat a mostly whole food diet, so I feel like it's okay. I take some supplements, but I take creatine, but otherwise it's not like super consistent with my other supplements. Now you're in Colorado, which means it snows, so you're probably not outside as much,

I would say, in the winter. The odds that you are not in optimal levels of vitamin D is relatively high, probably 70%. Now, what you could do, what I think would be great, is to get your nutrient levels tested, including vitamin D, and then see if you're in those optimal levels. Low levels of vitamin D, and I don't mean like super low, where you're sick, but just kind of not like suboptimal, maybe slightly below,

typically feel like pain, inability to recover from stress, injury, pain is a real common one with low vitamin D where you just kind of feel like, oh, why am I achy or why does this hurt so easily type of deal? So I would get nutrient levels tested and if you want to take a multivitamin anyway, type of deal. So I would get nutrient levels tested and if you want to take a multivitamin anyway because that can make a difference but I think MAP-15 I think the volume MAP-15 would be appropriate and at maintenance calories I think you'll see nice strength gains with that. So disc golf, hiking, biking,

lifting, shoulder pain, hurt our back, quad injuries. What are our mobility practices look like? I try to do mobility once or twice a week. Just kind of like I warm up with some mobility. You know, I have, I think pretty good mobility. You know, I can do a full squat and I don't think I have pretty good ankle mobility. Like I can get into a caustic squat and a full range. I don't think it's a mobility issue.

I think it's too much. Yeah, because you noticed a lot of your pain went away when you cut the volume down from what you were doing before down to three days a week. So I think you're moving in the right direction. So I think eating around maintenance consistently with a reduction in volume and then stay active everywhere else like you normally do. Get the nutrient levels tested just in case but in my experience especially

people living in seasonal areas I'd probably 70% when they would get tested were not were suboptimal like vitamin D but I think if you just keep your calories around maintenance followed follow the lower volume strength training approach, I think you'd see a lot of your issues rectify. Okay. And then with MAPS 15, I think it's harder for me to get in to work out 15 to 20 minutes every day versus the three to four days a week. Can I do two days in like one time?

Yes. You can combine the days a week. Can I do two days in one time? Yes. You can combine the days. Yeah, they're designed that way where the order that they are, one and two can go together, three and four together, five and six can go together. And here's the other way you could do it. You could do the workouts, the everyday workouts where you're not going to the gym. You could use the suspension trainer version and then the days you go to the gym use the barbell version. That's another option. Okay, yeah I have barbells in my garage,

so it's pretty easy to get to them. Oh, cool. Well, I mean, it's really, I mean, it's basic free weight movements. If you have a basic setup, you should be able to do everything. Okay. Yeah. Super.

We'll send that to you. Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah, you got it. Thanks for calling in. All right. Thanks. Have a great day. You too. Yeah, so much. Yeah, you got it. Thanks for calling in. Alright, thanks. Have a great day. You too.

It just sounds like, because she's like, oh, my pain got better when I cut down my volume. I was moving in that direction. Keep going there. The nutrient deficiency thing is an interesting one though. Well, if she's nutrient deficient, low calorie, and then is also pushing when she's in that, and then doing as much

as she's doing, it gets to be that simple of like just bump calories, hit those, take a couple of vitamins, make sure you're balanced out there. And I want people listening like, oh you keep telling people to do less. Most of your workouts, most of your workouts are cruising. Then you get the 10% where you're sprinting. And that's what it looks like your whole life.

This is what it looks like. You just stress test it occasionally. It's not 90% sprinting and then when I hurt myself or feel like garbage, I do a 10% cruise. That's gonna result in terrible results. And by the way, this is pro, high level athletes train this way, pro athletes train this way, like Olympic athletes train this way.

It's a- It's about longevity. That's right, and that's how you stay consistent with results and progress and you avoid things like injury and burnout, is most of the time, you're in there and you're kind of cruising. You're staying good. But I mean, to the idiots that would make that comment

to you, I mean, low back pain, shoulder pain, quad, I mean. We're also listening to the individual here. Yeah, I mean, and she checked off on the mobility, that's why I had to ask it. I'm like, cause the other only, the only other option of not being over training is that she's got terrible shoulder hip mobility and then she's doing dynamic movements like that. But if she's got a mobility practice feels like she's like that, then that's

it, then it's gotta be that. It's like, yeah, that's it. That's right. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is at Mindpump, Justin, I'm at Mindpump DiStefano, Adam's at Mindpump, Adam. Thank you for listening to Mindpump. If your goal is to build and shape your body,

dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes maps andabolic, maps performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and

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