Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2699: Is protein overrated?

Episode Date: October 4, 2025

Mind Pump Fit Tip: Is protein overrated? (2:01) Interesting People in History: Peter Freuchen. (21:41) DIY fecal transplant. (24:57) Using competition as a motivator to get healthy. (27:28) Kids say and do the darndest things. (35:43) If you could have one superpower, what would it be? (37:01) Who would win? (40:48) The dangers of snoring. (47:07) #ListenerLive question #1 – What are your thoughts on targeting visceral fat loss, especially when a person is already lean but still has visceral fat increase? (54:06) #ListenerLive question #2 – Fitness-wise, where do I need to go next? I played golf at an elite level, including three years at a high-level D-I university. (1:14:15) #ListenerLive question #3 – Where should I go after completing Transform? As a police officer working on a tactical team, I focus on strength, mobility, and resiliency. (1:21:14) #ListenerLive question #4 – Any advice on how to improve my barbell squat? (1:24:42) Related Links/Products Mentioned Ask a question to Mind Pump, live! Email: [e-mail] Visit Paleovalley for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Discount is now automatically applied at checkout: 15% off your first order! ** Visit Eight Sleep for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump Listeners! ** Use the code MINDPUMP to get $350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is that you still get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don’t like it – – Shipping to many countries worldwide. ** October Special: MAPS GLP-1 50% off! ** Code GLP50 at checkout. ** Mind Pump #2450: The Smartest Way to Use Protein to Burn Fat & Build Muscle The Impact of High Protein Diets on Cardiovascular Outcomes: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Prospective Cohort Studies The effects of consuming a high protein diet (4.4 g/kg/d) on body composition in resistance-trained individuals Peter Freuchen: The Real Most Interesting Man In The World Woman Gets 'DIY Poop Transplant,' Ingests Pills with Brother's Fecal Matter to Combat IBS Symptoms Watch Hack Your Health: The Secrets of Your Gut - Netflix Sal Di Stefano’s Journey in Faith & Fitness – Mind Pump TV Building Muscle with Adam Schafer – Mind Pump TV Justin’s Road to 315 Push Press Who Would Win? 10 Book Box Set Visit Troscriptions for the exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Promo code MINDPUMP for 10% off your first order. ** Mind Pump Jobs Mind Pump #2135: Barbell Squat Masterclass Mind Pump #2350: The 4 Types of Squats Everyone Should Be Doing Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources People Mentioned Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (@drgabriellelyon) Instagram  

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All right, here comes a show. Protein, it's everywhere. They're adding it to everything. It's been linked to fat loss, muscle growth. It's great for health. Is it? Is it overrated? Are people overdoing it?

Let's get into it. No. No, still not. I still don't think so. I remember when you called this, anybody who's been listening since day one, we'll have remember this, but we had a debate about this.

And you were right. that this would be the, you know, what is that, like 10 times now, Doug? We keep track. Nine of least. 10, 10 at a, what are we approaching? 3,000 episodes? The rest, Doug and I were right.

So, you know, pretty good. It's not bad. Yeah, no, it's, uh, but I, I still think, um, I still think it's the right message. I still think that carbs are so accessible. Um, most carbs are highly processed. I think that we still have this massive addiction to carbohydrates

and then that impedes on you getting your optimal amount of protein and we know how beneficial that is. It's essential and then it's even more beneficial in the pursuit of building muscle and or leaning out, losing body fat. Here's what's interesting. So here's where I'll say it is overrated. Oh, really? Yeah.

Now I don't, so let me explain because this. this will kind of break it down. It's overrated in the sense that people are buying processed foods that are protein enhanced, thinking that this is going to solve their health and dietary problems, which a protein enhanced processed food in the context of comparing it to other processed foods is probably better, but it's not good. it's not great. So this is where I'll say it's overrated in the sense that what's happened is that

this is what markets do, right? They'll take something, lots of good information supports it, social media supports it, fitness influencers talking about it, and they're like, cool, now you have protein everything, and it's still heavily processed foods. But that being said, I think protein is special because, you know, with carbohydrates, they're not essential, meaning you can avoid them. You can eat zero carbs and you're going to be okay. not saying that's ideal, but you don't have to eat them. Fats are essential. They tend to come

around with protein. Now fats, you can have a fatty acid profile that can cause maybe some poor health effects. Okay. So with fats, you still have to be a little bit more careful. Protein is interesting. Protein doesn't, except for maybe special populations, like people who have kidney disease or either doctors are saying, hey, you're has issues of processing protein, which is a small percentage of people. Like, if your doctor hasn't said this to you, this isn't you, you can eat a lot of protein and have no negative effects. Aside from if you're eating too many calories, in which case, eating over-eating always

has negative effects. Protein itself, like fat, you still have to look at the fatty acid profile. Carbohydrates, you can eat them or not, not a big deal. protein seems to always have benefits. A higher protein diet helps with muscle building. It also helps with fat loss. It also helps with satiety, meaning it's more filling or it produces more satisfaction.

So it helps with appetite. It also helps with insulin sensitivity. It's pretty remarkable and it's pretty interesting. So in most ways it's not overrated, but in the ways that the market takes and twists things, I would say, it can be overrated. Yeah, I don't see any, I don't see any downside to it if it leads to whole animal source protein options. But, yeah, to your fortifying kind of point and it leading to other hyper-processed types of foods, and that being an answer, I don't think that's a valid answer. But I could argue still it's a better option than, you know, other process. Oh, I'm going to defend it right now.

I'm taking a different position on this than you are. So I definitely do think so. I mean, when I think of just a handful things at my house is we just now took a recent sponsorship, which are like these kind of high protein chips that, you know, I snack on at the house. I have Greek yogurt that's processed that now it's not just regular Greek yogurt. It's got 20 grams of protein. So added way protein to it. it, one of other companies that we work with that I love.

I used to eat oatmeal for years. It's got protein added to it. And so there's these, there's these, you know, I wouldn't consider them super highly processed, but they're processed foods where they fortified it with added protein that have now become, you know, if I'm going to snack on something, I'm going to, I'm going to pick one of those and I can still hit my targets protein-wise, whereas in the past, you know, I'd be guilty of snacking on some chips or having a bowl of cereal for breakfast or, you know, instead of Greek yogurt, it would be ice cream. And so these foods, I do think, can really, really help somebody who I think struggles to hit protein, which I think includes pretty much everybody.

Very few people, I think, organic, you have those rare cases. I have a client that I, one of my last clients I talked to, she never missed protein intake. She also weighed 120 pounds and she loved meat. So it was pretty easy for her. But most people, generally speaking, struggle to hit the optimal amount. And so I do think that these things as alternatives than the typical processed foods are doing a lot of help. You know, just to defend you, here's why the, there's two reasons why the processed food market didn't add protein to foods even after people kind of wanted it. There's two reasons why.

One is this expensive. Protein's not cheap. The other one is protein doesn't make you overeat. Even in processed foods. Now, processed foods are engineered in ways that will make you overeat. In other words, a 30 gram protein serving in a processed food will, you'll eat more of that than you would 30 grams of protein in a natural source. However, a processed food with 30 grams of protein, you'll eat less of that. Right.

Then it's something that has no protein. Just pure chips. Right. So to defend you 100%. What I'm going is, you know, what I, what I, where I see this could go wrong. Where you're going, where you're going is there's candy bars now that are adding. Fortifying protein there. And so it's just like, oh, this is going to magically fix a lot of things.

Protein candy and everything else. And it has happened. I do, I see that as more as like a positive sign, not because I think that's a good choice or a good direction. But it's that the market has spoiled. spoken so loudly that we want this. Therefore, that tells me that, oh, wow, consumers are finally paying attention to that. Not just my clients that I'm telling to do that.

It sounds like General Popper starting to realize, like, oh, I need more protein in my diet. And so, of course, now all these other clever marketers and companies that don't really care about health, they care about you buying more of their products. They're like, oh, shit, let's throw an extra 10 grams of protein in there. Maybe people will buy more of it. And so that's...

I almost look at it as somebody go into the gas station and having options and, like, What are literally the best options you can possibly eat in a gas station? Because there's literally people that buy their food there, like in certain, like, cities. And you're just like, it's crazy. But, you know, to have them steer a little more towards the protein options, they're going to do better than they would, anything else. It's very interesting. There's a lot of theories as to why this happens with protein.

One of them is that the hunger signals in humans, maybe through evolution, were hunger signals. got triggered, or I should say our satiety signals got triggered when we reached a certain level of amino acid intake. Okay, so when you're in nature and you're not, there's no agricultural revolution, so we don't have crops, okay? Definitely don't have grocery stores. So we're finding food or we're killing food.

And when you reach a certain level of amino acid consumption, your body knows, A, you've got essential amino acids, essential protein, and B, you've got fat. Because in nature, you don't kill an animal that is pure, chicken breasts don't exist. You're going to kill an animal. There's a lot of fat on that animal as well. In fact, in fact, hunters, you know, trappers in some cases would starve.

If they could only find rabbits, because rabbits are so lean, they would actually starve death. They could use as many rabbits they want because it doesn't have enough fat. But otherwise, protein tends to satisfy us. and then it promotes muscle growth. Why would it promote muscle growth? Well, we know what's happening mechanistically with the amino acids and protein synthesis,

but evolutionary, I think this is the other part of it is you're a successful hunter. Your body is okay building strength and muscle knowing you're going to be able to support that new energy requirement because you're successfully hunting. And so it's got all these wild bent, it's interesting. It's very interesting. Like, if you just hit your protein targets and stick to whole natural foods, that's the other part of it, most people's caloric intake will fall right in the Goldilocks zone.

Yeah. Like, if you're overweight- It's a natural limiter. It's very interesting. There was this belief, I believed it. I believed it for years that we were eating machines. And the reason why humans are obese is because we're surrounded by food. So, yeah, we're going to be obese. We just, like, we're goldfish.

Like, if you just feed, you know, you know how they tell you don't overfeed your goldfish. You found ways to bypass it. Yeah, I think that's not true. at all. I think you're, I know this now by the data. It's, you're going to eat enough to fuel your body, fuel muscle growth if you're sending the right signal. You're going to eat enough to lose excess body fat. Over time, the average person, of course there's this function that can override this, but over time, the average person, just following those two rules, will fall within a healthy body fat percentage and if their strength training will be fit. That's wild. I mean, we

That is wild. We just recently took a live caller that took himself from 218 pounds all the way down to 168 or 170, 11% body fat, some bands and some dumbbells and minimal in those principles. Yeah. Just whole foods, go after my protein. That's it. That's right. And got all the way to. You know, we didn't even realize we're talking about this and today is one of our partners.

But, I mean, paleo value, they're meat sticks. Another great example of something that, like, I like these alternatives because now my pantry has got a lot of this stuff. And so when I still have those moments where I want to eat something where in the past in my 20s, it would have been some high-carb snack that just added a bunch of calories and didn't get me any closer to my protein intake. At least now I can grab these foods that have got 10, 20, 30 grams of protein in them and I can still stay on. And then to your point, even though it's processed, it satiates me more than I have a beef stick and that like holds me over. You know, it's interesting about what you're saying. Process foods have some value. I know we demonize them all the time and largely you should avoid them. But there is some values to process food.

One of them is shelf life. Like I don't want to, I want to be careful because if we don't produce foods that have a long shelf life, we have starvation in many places of the world. That's a real problem. Yeah. Like you have to be able to produce food that you can put in can. or boxes or dried foods that last a long time because if we grow food here, ship it way over there, 50% of it gets lost. Now the cost of it is, does it make sense or it doesn't work?

And so processed foods have a long shelf hive. And the other one for us in modern societies is that they're convenient. And this is also a real value. Like life is busy, okay, tactic, you got kids, you got to work, whatever. So those two things are real values. But then what typically follows is the third thing, which is they're engineered to make you overeat. Now, you brought up Paleo Valley meat sticks.

Have you ever overeaten that? No. And they taste good. Yeah. They're delicious. But you don't eat a box of meat sticks. No, no, maybe two. Because protein is this natural limiter.

It has a natural satiety. I can eat a box of any processed food that doesn't have a lot of protein. Yeah. When it comes like jerky, who overeats jerky? I'm sure there's someone in the world that exists has done it, but it almost never happens. No, no. One bag of your typical bag of jerky is... You put a bag of chips and fries and fruit.

front of me, and I'll eat them until I hate myself, way past, you know, what would be appropriate. So protein is very interesting in that sense. Now, there's, in the past, there were some myths around protein, like it could lead to calcium leaching. This was a, that's been way, like, we've debunked that myth long time ago. So nobody really talks about that one anymore. Stresses the kidneys. This is another one. Lots and lots and lots and lots of studies have been done on high protein intake, very high protein intake and kidney function and what they find is the kidneys adapt and there is no

problem. Now if you have already kidney disease, hold another ballgame. Now you have to work with your nephrologist and believe it or not, early stages of kidney disease actually increase your protein because you're not able to utilize as much of it. But nonetheless that's a myth

so doesn't harm your organs. A huge meta-analysis just came out on protein and arterial health, heart health. And they found no negative effects on protein so it doesn't have and then here's a crazy part when you overeat calories here's what's weird overeating calories uh on a low protein diet versus a high protein down same calories the high protein diet results in less fat gain yeah and that what that is is the being able to maintain the muscle mass and or build muscle mass that's why it's offsetting

that. It's offsetting. It's very complex. One part of it is that protein has a very high thermogenic effect in the body. So it actually requires more energy to process. So one calorie from protein versus a calorie from carbohydrates, it's not really the same. The other one is what you said, protein, especially for strength training, tends to go to building muscle. And then the metabolism is so complex. There's other things that are happening. But I find that fascinating. I find it fascinating. Same calories, same, you know, person burning X amount of calories. over calories once high protein was lower they gain less body fat and then on the reverse a calorie deficit that's high protein versus low protein results of more fat loss the high protein so uh i mean

it's almost like the body knows how to use it but i mean it's pretty incredible it's i mean i and we've obviously we've been screaming this from the mountaintops uh on this podcast but when my clients would just focus on that a lot of the other stuff magic would happen yeah then all the the other stuff just kind of fell in place because it is it is pretty difficult to hit that protein intake and so optimal amount not the essential essential is easier but hitting optimal amount for your body weight is is somewhat challenging and it's actually if you prioritize it it's actually really hard and you eat whole foods it's really hard to overeat like really hard and if you do it tends to be turned into muscle yeah because your body has sent that signal right right which i which i love i love

this like, hey, if you just do this over time, yeah, you're not, you're a guy, you're not going to get to 9% body fat, but you'll probably fall around 15 over time and a woman around low 20s. And most people who want to lose weight or get fit, that's kind of where they would like to end up. They'd like to be around there. So it's, it's interesting. Now, what you're seeing right now is a lot of counter protein propaganda. And I'm just going to say this right now, straight up. Here's where it comes from. It comes from the pro animal, you know, don't eat animal lobbies. It's the vegan lobbies that put out this propaganda. And it's exactly that. It's propaganda. It's the don't eat too much protein. It's bad for you, animal protein, this, that,

and the other. It's all baloney. The data doesn't support it. Again, there's lots of data on this and it doesn't. It doesn't support. If you look at the right controlled studies, Um, it's, in fact, I brought up on our previous episode that, um, animal, uh, you know, protein intake, um, was a great meta analysis, actually showed a slight protective effect. So there is a lot of counter kind of propaganda for people who really, really don't want animals to be eaten. Um, and I get that. If that's your moral compass, if the top of your hierarchy of values is we can't kill animals, well, twisting and lying a little bit or twisting data, it's, it's worth it, right? Because I want to save these poor animals. So let's just take some date and over, you know, over, over, over, overblow it or, or twist it a bit. But, uh, it's

interesting. Yeah. Historically, I mean, you can't really go back in history and point to cultures surviving and thriving without animal based protein. No. No, we have, that's why I love that show so much. It's such a great example for people. It's like, if we throw these people on an island, they go survive. They've had a couple of vegans before. Never work. I mean, even to your point about the rabbits, like the guy, there's guys on there that actually trap a lot of rabbits and they end up having to leave because they can't they can't survive and the person who always wins is the one who gets the big kill with the fat the kills the fat the big either the deer or the boar or animal like that that has got a lot of fat too because that

person if they can figure out how to store it because that becomes the next problem to another one of your points it's like storing meat for that long period of time is is tough for them to do right but those are the ones that win that competition and the people that think they're going to live of berries, nuts, and seeds never making it. Is this ramping up again? Because I haven't seen it in a while. I felt like it was calming down in terms of like the animal protein

being targeted. What you're seeing right now are studies showing that it's not just it's not harmful, that it's beneficial. And then what's following that is the counterpropaganda. Where are we at with the lab grown meat? Oh, I don't know. Are you following that? Are you not following that

to see kind of like how far? It's like Bill Gates is resurrected. I know some The past laws against it. I think Italy passed laws against it, if I'm not mistaken. I like how we, you know, we were told to eat bugs there for a minute and then that's where it died off. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, they want it.

I like that better than lab-grown meat. Well, I think that's a... Probably get more benefit from that. I mean, wouldn't you think so? Do you know how many parasites are in bugs, by the way? Have you seen that? No, no. Oh, boy.

It's problematic. Yeah. What was the other thing? It was like something about their exoskeleton that, like, does harmful things to your gut. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Yeah. You look into it. It is, it's not, it's not a good option. Oh, I don't know that. We're talking about hunters, by the other. I mean, I figured that it's got to be, I still, I still think it's better than lab grow meat, though. Yeah, probably. I mean, at least grubs, like, you see that, like, you could survive off grubs.

I got to, I got to tell you guys about this crazy, I follow this page on Facebook, and it talks about, like, interesting people in history. Yeah. And so I'll go and, like, is this real? Like, is this a real guy? And I confirmed it. There was a whole Wikipedia page on them. There were all these websites on them. So there was a guy, in 1947, there was a guy named Peter Fruchin, I think his name is, 6-7.

He was an Arctic explorer. First of all, 1947 to be 6-7 was insane. And there's a picture if you look at him. He looks like a beast. He was an Arctic explorer, an author, an anthropologist, and a resistance fighter whose life reads like legend. So check this out. He actually did this. He crossed 1,000 miles of Greenland by dog sled, lost a leg to frostbite after he amputated his own toes

with pliers. He started an Oscar winning film. He wrote over 30 books and during World War II he fought with the Danish resistance was captured sentenced to death by the Nazis and then he escaped to Sweden. Then he married an Inuit woman

a Danish here at what is that? H-E-R-Hiris. How do you say that? Aris. Sorry. I don't know why I can't say that. And finally, a brilliant illustrator and food expert, Dagmar Khan. they were like this intellectual power couple but you got to see oh and then he won $64,000 on a huge quiz show

in America this crazy life of this guy They made a movie about it? You got to look them up Peter and then F-R-E-U-C-H-M. How have they not made a movie about him? Dude and so he had like He had one lay...

It almost sounds like Shackleton you know that the explorer of Antarctica Yeah Yeah sounds like one of those characters I hear stuff like this I'm like what am I doing Like, this guy did all that's a crazy stuff. You got to look at this guy.

There's a picture of him. I'm sure Doug will find him. 30 books, too. How do you write that many books, too? And, you know, 1,000 miles across Greenland on a dog sled, escaping the Nazis. Dude. Like, cutting his toes off himself. And then losing a lake.

Yeah. Sounds like urban. It sounds like urban legend. No, it's real, dude. I know, right. There he is in that big fur coat next to his wife. Look at how big he was next to his wife. Dude.

Oh, is that a movie about him right there? Oh. it might be yes he's just the hard dude yeah yeah exactly no I don't think so man like you don't make them like that no they don't exist barely isn't that crazy yeah pretty cool right it makes us feels our generation so weak you know why yeah so like gooey and so I found this I found this guy yesterday after we're complaining about how hot it is in the studio it's good yeah compare us to like you know some crazy alpha dude I'm so hot right now this guy's like he cuts his

I mean, see, I always think about, too, someone like this, like, you know, if you were to be, you know, drop into our, our era, our time, like, and then see people going in gyms and lifting weights and signing up for tough mudders, paying people to, you know, crawl through the mud. Like, I feel like people like this would just be so confused. Yeah. What do you, you know, why? You pay, you pay a membership to go in there and to do labor and, wait, you pay for a group of men to go and do what are you guys building? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just put the pick up and put it back down. Where's this all going?

Yeah, it's nowhere. I know, pretty cool. I got another interesting story. This is also true. This woman, she's a scientist and journalist, I believe. Her name is Daniel Kupke. She struggled with severe IBS for years. So she did a do-it-yourself fecal microbiota transplant.

Okay. Do it yourself? Yeah, so apparently you can do this, which I don't recommend anybody do. She swallowed capsules made from her brother's stool. Her gut improved, she gained weight, but then she developed acne like he did. Then she used her boyfriend's stool. She then did it again from her boyfriend. So she did her brothers first, then she did her boyfriends.

The acne went away, but then she started developing depression like her boyfriend had. So she wrote all about this about, this isn't a documentary called Hack Your Health, The Secrets of Your Gut? Isn't that weird? It's really weird. They must have weird conversations at things. giving you know yeah how does that come how does that come up to how do you ask that question you know what i've been thinking you're pretty healthy guy yeah you know i find fascinating enough she got her brother's acne and then she did it with her boyfriend and then

started developing his depression wow from the she did anything good from the tooth she well her gut got better okay her gut's better but you have acne and depression now she shows you how much bacteria like programs it's wild yeah so many facets of, you know, your health. Do you think in the future? It is, this has got to be some of the stuff that we're going to, we're going to really unlock in the next couple decades. I think so, too.

I think that's pretty fascinating. Do you think in the future there's going to be like, like, really wealthy poo, you know, that you can buy? Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, super healthy, athletic, intelligent. Like, who can we pin to, like, is like the healthiest person example right now? Like, healthy skin, healthy everything.

We'll eat some Paul Check poo. Yeah. Wow. He should sell it. He should sell it. I imagine that becomes, imagine if that became like a viable revenue stream for people. And then also the motivator would be to be a healthy person. Yeah.

You can become very wealthy if you're just healthy and sell your shit. Yeah, literally, just sell your shit. The bottleneck is, though, in the business. It's hard to scale. It's hard to scale. And you'd have to eat pretty shitty food to really kick it up. You know what I'm saying? It's like staying healthy.

You're only getting like maybe one or two a day at the moment. As many customers as you can have. Oh, yeah. So anyway. I wanted to bring something up that we had on a live caller that, and the reason why I wanted to talk about was because this was a, I felt like a pretty regular conversation that we used to have. Maybe it was because I was competing back in the days and so we talked about.

So weird. I was going to go. Oh, really. Yeah. It just, I mean, I felt compelled to talk about it because I was, as we were talking to her about this, I thought, you know what? It's been a while on the podcast since we've kind of decided. discuss this. And it still is a popular thing. So it's really common, especially in the Instagram

world, where people start to get in a little bit of shape and they want to use the competition to get further in shape. Right? So they've lost a little bit away. So like bikini content. Yeah. And so they want like a target to like now push. And I get it. It's the reason why challenges are so appealing to people. People like some sort of a target, a goal. a competition for them to compete against and they think it's a good strategy for motivating them to get healthier. And I, you know, I can't, I can't say strong enough how much I'm anti that and how much of a terrible idea that is for somebody to go and use competing as a way to try and get healthy, especially considering a majority of us have some sort of underlining

body dysmorphia issues that got us into working out and or some sort of a unhealthy relationship with food and dieting, that that is the absolute pinnacle of those two things. I mean, that is body dysmorphia on display and also extreme radical dieting on this. It's like the pinnacle of both those things. And so to sign yourself up in that in the pursuit of health is a terrible idea. It's not healthy. It's not a healthy thing to do. No.

And if you struggle with any kind of body image issues, like you said, or you've had any struggles with food relationship, whether it's overeating, under eating, of course, extreme cases, you know, just, you know, bulimia, anorexia. But even if you just like, yeah, I have trouble. overeating or, you know, I tend to under-eat. It's hard for me to go into reverse diet. Or you're like, yeah, you know, I'm pretty critical of myself in the mirror or I weigh myself

all the time. The last thing you should do is sign up for a competition where you get judged on how you look. Yeah. You are setting yourself up for terrible dysfunction, not to mention it's unhealthy. It's so unhealthy, the only people that can get away with it are, people who go into it so healthy with such a fast metabolism, they have such a long runway that they end up okay. Otherwise, where people tend to end up is hormonal dysfunction,

crashed metabolism, and their body dysmorphia is 10 times worse. Exaggerated and crazy. And then possibly the best thing that could happen ends up being the worst thing that could happen to you, meaning you do the competition, you white knuckle your way through it. It gets you there. You garner all kinds of attention. You become famous. People praise you because what you transformed into, what your body looks like. Now they're asking you for advice. Now you feel compelled that maybe this is my future career. That is like the worst thing happened. And then now you have become this person who competes and does that. And meanwhile, never fixed that underlying issue that you had of body dysmorbia or your

relationship with food. And then now you're selling. celebrated for this thing that you've done. Oh, even worse. Not good. I mean, just the numbers, you should be pretty lean with a high caloric intake. In other words,

have a high maintenance, pretty lean, not training like crazy. You just work out like normal, you know, four days a week, lift weights, a little bit of cardio.

That's where you should be before you get into prep. If you're not already pretty lean, eating a lot of food, you have no business going to prep because you got to cut it way down and work out even more. And where you're going to end up is in a really bad place.

Not to mention the mental part. First of all, I'll be even more aggressive, Adam. Someone with no body dysmorphia will end up with a little bit of it. Yeah. Because now you're on stage, and here's what happens, guys and girls. When you're on stage, this is what the judge says. Your glute's a little undeveloped. You have a little, I don't, there's a little bit of softness in your lower back.

Your right dealt is, they're picking you apart. Yeah. And you're on, you're posing. I don't like that left quad. Like, like, like, what? Like, the pursuit is perfection of how you look in the sport. It's not a good, it's not, this is, look, this is why when it was my turn to do the series, you know, Adam, you did one getting back into shape.

Justin did one on a gargantuan overhead press. And I don't want to do one because I knew if I did any kind of a fitness related series, either a lift or a look, I know myself, it's going to spin me. Like, I'm not, I know. You went for love. I'm aware. I'm aware enough to know, and I told you guys this. I said, no, no, if I go into, you guys are crazy.

If you make me do this, I'm going to, it's going to put me in a bad place. It doesn't matter what the fitness goal is. It's going to put me in a really bad place. Luckily, I picked something that tackled that issue. But if it was, knowing myself, you know, and that's not even a competition. That's just a video series, let alone, like, going in Speedos on stage and having people break my body down. Yeah, yeah. So then people ask me, well, then, you know, who is right for it or who can do it?

A generic number I would give my women and then my men. You have no business competing if you're a woman and you're already under 2,800 calories. So you want to be 2,800 calories. And you have to be relatively lean. Right. And be relatively lean there. I would want you somewhere in the high teens to low 20s. So high teens, low 20s, body fat percentage and eating north of 2,800 calories.

My men, 3,500 calories and then the low teen, so 10 to 15% body fat. 10 to 15% body fat for male, over 3,500 plus calories. Now I know that is a generic number and it depends on your body weight, lean body mass, all the things. But those are pretty good basic, like, rules that if you're, yeah, if you're listening and you're considering that and you're like, oh, you know, I'm about, you know, 19% body fat, but I'm only eating like 1,600 calories. Yeah, not a good idea. you're going to go. Yeah, nowhere to go. You have nowhere to go. But you, actually, you do. You have somewhere to go. Unhealthy. That is the only place to go. Severely. Yeah, there's, there's only, it only gets unhealthy from that point. If you're already eating a low calorie intake and then you

want to take your body to an unhealthy body fat percentage, it will require you to be very unhealthy to even try and get there. It's even worse, it's unhealthy for both men and women, but especially for women because on stage bikini which is the softest quote unquote of the presentation sports for women so you know figure you got to be even leaner fitness you know it gets even leaner leaner leaner leaner you got to be on stage what are women hanging on stage bikini 11 12% body fat at the highest yeah you know what that body fat percentage does to a woman you lose your period yeah and you have you have hormonal dysfunction you will have hormone dysfunction men are you know you're hitting the stage at 4%, men are a little bit more resilient, but your testosterone's on the floor.

It's going to be, you know, hitting stage at 4% body fat. I don't care who you are. So, and that's with somebody who's healthy. And again, I actually think the thing that you think would be the best outcome would actually be the worst outcome. Yeah, because you're getting... For you to do it well. Confirmation.

Yes. And do good and be praised for it. And when, heaven forbid, that happens. Yeah. Because then that comes with its own host of problems downstream from that. And then now you've created this persona online that is attached to that. Real tough to break away from that. Not a fan.

Dude, I got to tell you guys what my two and a half year old did yesterday. Just cracked me up. So she's, you know, she's only two and a half. She'll be three in a few months, actually. And she's like, we're on the couch and we're all playing. And she goes, but I have superpowers. So I'm like, oh, that's cool. She likes, she's got superpowers.

She goes, watch this. So I'm sitting on the couch. She goes to the end of the couch and she's standing on it. And she runs full speed at me. And I swear to God, you guys, she does a flying kick to my throat. Like she runs, she jumps and boots me like my Adam's apple. Oh, my God. Like, oh.

And I'm like, and she's like, do you like it? And I'm like, yes, I like it. So don't try to kick me in the throat. So the rest of the night, because I let the kids play rough with me. you know, mom doesn't like it. Jessica doesn't like when they play really rough with her. But I want to let them play a little bit with me. And I'll let them push the limit.

Like, I don't let them bite or scratch or anything like that. Because she'll also bite. She thinks she's just cute. She tries to bite it. And I'm like, no biting. But yeah, dude, so she's just over and over again. She run from the end, jump and swing her leg and just, it was pretty good.

I was impressed. I was like, bro, you'd knock out another two. You'd knock out another two. It's like, yeah. So my son's school has this thing where they ask him these kind of like, kind of, I don't know, creative, thought-provoking questions. And I was so irritated the other day because I was, I had no answer. And I mean, I pondered on it forever and I could not come up with a good answer.

And I felt like I failed my son. And I'm like, is it just a difficult question that like I, what was the question? The question was, if you were invisible for a day, what would you do? And what was your answer? I didn't have one. That was my problem. Yeah, anything I could think of was creepy. Yes.

That's exactly. And I'm like, if my six-year-old son asked me that, you know, I understand. And I'm like, if my buddies were saying, I have a pervert answer to say back, that would be funny, but not like a real answer for my six-year-old son. So I was lost. What would I, son? What would I want to be invisible for a day? I think that would that benefit you. It is because it either involves stealing or spying.

Yes. Or being somewhere you're not supposed to be. Yeah. That's why I was like, I thought there's a weird question. I guess you could tell him like, oh, I would play a funny trick on mom and I'd move things and make her think that what's going on. on and then I'd laugh and tell her, hey, I'm invisible. Yeah, it was like, where else would you go with that? I know.

Okay, good. So it wasn't, I just, that was a really tough one for me to answer was if I was invisible for a day, what, what would I, what would I want to do? You said women's locker room. Yeah. I mean, that's like the Porky's 80s. Well, you know, eventually what I had to say to him and explain it when it, even when it came out, came out, it sounded really bad because I was like, I came up with

eventually going to be in the, the Warriors locker room so I could hear the play. before they go into the basketball game which I'm like that sounds really bad saying that I want to go into a men's locker room yeah I explained it why it's like oh so I could hear what the coach is telling them before they go and play the game or whatever with that but I could not think of a really creative good answer to give my son

I'm like they're asking these kids that I'm like what are they expecting to get from that like that's a what is the right answer I think you came up with a good answer I don't think there's a great answer for that no it's like you say everything's kind of creepy yeah that's true what a what a creepy superpower yeah like i would just watch everybody well that was another one they asked another question the the next day or the day before i remember what it was uh was if you could have one superpower uh what would it be what do you say well i said freeze time

that's what i said so i could come up with one for that nice yeah yeah i thought freezing time would be cool freezing time would be interesting wouldn't it yeah like what if okay especially if you can operate outside of that now here's what's weird about that i've had this conversation you freeze time Yeah. Everybody stops aging, but you continue aging. So the more you do it, the faster you age in relationship to everyone else. There's a cost. That's actually kind of cool because then we'll keep it in check.

So you wouldn't abuse that power. That's right. You would use it judiciously. You would be like, okay, this is a really good time. I just, I really effed up right there. Let me rewant, freeze. Let's do that over again. Okay, that was worth it.

You know what I'm saying? Versus, and you do it all the time. You abuse that power every day. You're going to age really fast. Everybody would be young. I mean, that or you could, like, go back like, five minutes or something. And like a small amount of time just to correct maybe something in the moment, you know? What if five minutes wasn't enough, though, to stop, like, a major thing?

You know what I mean? Like, five minutes isn't enough to stop this horrible disaster. Right. That would suck. Well, yeah, because what if the horrible disaster was, like, a family member who lived two states over or someone? Yeah. But that would be the check. That's the phone.

That's the check and balance and that, too. It's like, you know, it's limited by the time time. At least that one I thought was creative enough to do this right here. Yeah. Create a good dialogue. I like that one. That's cool. But the invisible one for a day was just like, I want to hear what these kids said.

What do these kids say? How do they answer that? And what is the right answer there? Just to be able to explode somebody with one punch? Wow. Justin's just, he's got some darkness inside of it. I mean, it's be fun. Do you know how strong a gorilla is, by the way?

I learned this the other day. Do you know how strong a gorilla is? As strong as 30 average men. Well, that's where that thing went viral, right? That's where that came from. Oh, is that where it came from? Oh, yeah. How many men would have taken?

Yeah, because that started that trend. That's so stupid. That's what that start of that trend was that a single gorilla could take on an X amount of men, like easily. Bro, you imagine being strong as 30 average men? Yeah. That's crazy. But even then, you're there with a bunch of other guys and you're trying to figure out, like, the attack. How does that work?

Like, how do you, like, I'm going to take out the ankle? A bunch of people are going to die. Yeah. Jump on at once. In two or three, you're going to get torn apart. I mean, ten guys with the strategy going in absolutely could do that. No weapons? Well, yeah, it's the thing, no weapons?

If, if, listen, if four of you, I'm saying with at least 10 men, right, if four of you are, we're dead. We're working together and you go for the legs. With no weapons. I mean, you have to be really organized, but I don't know. Let me tell you something. This is what made this go viral. I don't even know what you could do is. No, you couldn't.

Yeah. Listen. Were you all going to punch them at the same time? With no, with no strategy? I think with strategy. I don't care. I think with just like rushing, no way. Listen to me.

You only get 10 guys to pounce at once. Here's what will happen. you'll go in with your strategy and you'll see someone literally get torn and how yeah everybody exactly he's just scare everybody they're run

dude I guess that's it's as soon he pulls someone's head right up their neck you'll pop this head bail what was I thinking we're we're apex predators because we have weapons

without weapons we're weak yeah we can't do not but that would that obviously that that's the great equalizer is that we would have a weapon or we would use it we'd be smart enough to use have you seen

there was this old there was this like Japanese game show, which Doug introduced me Japanese game shows a long time ago. They're really weird. There was lots of weird ones. They're weird, dude. But there was one where people were competing against animals. And there was this, it wasn't even a gorilla, bro. It was a, it was like a chimp, just like a normal

chimp. And he was doing Tug a war against a sumo wrestler. Big sumo wrestler. And he was holding onto the rope, and the sumo wrestler was yanking. The chimp looked like nothing. Like, he just sat there, like he wasn't even trying. In fact, he took his hand off at one point, and then he finally just, like, he figured out, like, oh, I'm supposed to pull, and he just pulled the guy, like it wasn't a chimp.

Yeah. Like 150 pounds. My favorite 10-the-war thing that they did, and this was on the internet, not that long ago that I thought was pretty interesting, was they, I forgot how many kids does it take to pull, like, two bodybuilder guys? Like, so they used, I think Thor did it. I think him and somebody else did it. I can't remember. Really? Mm-hmm.

And it was actually surprising, because you would think that a bunch of kidney gardeners, they would, they drag a whole school around. You know what I'm saying? Like, no way. But, but actually enough kids, just the weight and the leverage was enough to, like, pull them. And so I don't remember what number it was. It was like 50 kids or something? Oh, is that the one, Doug?

I believe so, yeah. He found the video. Sumo wrestler versus a monkey. No way, dude. Orangutan. Oh, it was an orangutan. It wasn't a chimp. Look, he's four-foot-tall orangutan, 180-pound orangutang.

Oh, my God. Yeah, dude. And he literally just chills while the sumo wrestler just pulls as hard as he can. And is he, like, just hold onto the rope? Yeah, he just holds on. It doesn't even care. Watch. You'll see.

Watch. He's like, oh. Like, he's just like, eh. He just, look, he's just, look, he doesn't care, bro. He's got a diaper on because he's like a baby. Yeah. He just pulls him across. Like, it's nothing.

Isn't that wild? That is wild. You'll have to look up the one with the kids, though. Yeah. Look for the, how many kids does it take to pull two bodybuilds? Well, so I'm all into this right now because I have an almost five-year-old boy. So he loves asking me these questions. Yeah.

He loves, like, just pitting things. together. Well, he was like... You know, there's a whole series of books on this. I told you about it. Oh, okay. Yeah.

I ordered them. Did you get them? No, I haven't got it yet. Oh, your son's going to love them. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Bro, I used to make... You got to do this with him and take, like, different types of insects and just

put them under a jar and let them have them go out of it, dude. Praying Mantis wins everything. Yes. They do win a lot. They are... Is it everything? Oh, they are. Dude, we are so lucky they're as small as they are.

Oh, bro. That's like one of the most vicious ones. Oh, yeah. dude, and they're made to attack. Well, don't they kill their own mate, too? Yeah, they eat the... The women eat the men, don't they? Yeah, they rip its head off and they eat.

Yeah, isn't it something like that? Like, she gets pregnant and then she kills them right afterwards or something like that? Yeah. Some vicious. Just like, thank you for your seed. We were looking up elephants the other day. And you know, there's videos on elephants going after like big trucks. Like, they have these big tour trucks, these tour bust looking things.

And they have like a big, like, bull elephant charging it. and you're supposed to stand your ground, but there was one where the bull elephant goes up to it, and he just picks it up. Just lifted it up? Yeah, he just picks it up. Wow. Like, it's nothing.

Yeah, that would be... Imagine seeing that, like, in person, how scary that would be. Oh, terrifying. Did you look up how many kids does it take to pull? You actually have the video here. Oh, you found it?

Yeah. Yeah, it looks like we're watching a commercial. Yeah. Yeah. There we go, Doug. We got to pay for YouTube Supreme or whatever it's called. It's been on a commercial for a YouTube Supreme. That's it called?

I have no idea. Is that the deal? That's how cheap I don't pay for these. Burrito Supreme. You found it, though, Doug? There's a video on it, right? Yeah. I think Justin's right on the guest.

I think it's somewhere. What's your guess? How many kids does it take to pull like two strong men, like Thor? Two strong men? Yeah, two. How old are these kids? Little kids. Like, look, right here.

It is, it was them. A hundred. How many kids was it? No, not even 100. thousand pounds of kids. Those guys are all pulling together. Yeah, that's a thousand pounds of just dead weight is hard to drag, right? And then if they're actually pulling in the opposite direction.

So this was one of those ones that I was like, oh, they should be able to. It's surprising. It's totally surprising. You would not think 20 little eight year or seven year olds. So what you're saying is if a, if a classroom of children organized, they could totally overtake. Man, I wish I had known that. I mean, look at how much they're trying to pull.

Oh, they're dragging them across the floor. Uh-huh. Wow. Yeah. I would have never guessed that. I would have never guessed that either. I would have thought like 100 kids. Look at this.

Look at all these little kids. Like, yay! Wow. Dude. That's wild. I got to have, you know, this reminds, looking at these strong men, I just thought of something. Sleep apnea, which is quite common. All these guys have that.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, did you guys know that 8 Sleep has, the AI technology will identify if you're snoring? Yes. And they have, it'll adjust to make you stop snoring. Yeah. while keeping you asleep. I want to try that.

Do you have that one? I don't have that one. I want to try that. So that's the, Doug might have to look up for different levels or packages. There's another level from what I have, which is it's also the mattress.

So it's not just the pod cover, but it's also the mattress. So it adjust too, and I haven't slept in one or I haven't had one. Do you guys know how unhealthy snoring is? Do you have any idea? Doug, look up the health risk. Don't do this.

Don't do this. Listen. Yeah, but isn't it basically anybody over 200 pounds at that point is going to be susceptible. You have a big neck Or you're a big dude You lift a lot of weights Your tongue grows too

And so that's a problem You're obstructing your area That's why we can't dead hang either Just like it doesn't look good though Before you read the stats Before you read the stats Here's what finally got me to get A CPAP machine

Darth Vader machine This is what finally got me to get it Okay Besides my wife sleeping in another room Which was sad It made me sad Yeah. And I was stubborn.

It was Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. We were doing a podcast with her, and we talked about it, and I said, oh, I, you know, I snore. And then after the show, she comes up to me, she goes, get a CPAP, like in my face. I'm like, why? She goes. Take shades years off your life. Bro. I've read the stuff.

I'm like this close. I'm like on the brink because it's been like, I am just, dramatically increases your risk of heart disease, stroke. I'm over it, dude. You get a stroke. Yeah. Heart disease, your brain, it's not good for your brain? It's not good, dude.

Yeah, but like, how did people survive, you know, before sleep apnea machines? Huh? You just died young? Yeah, exactly. You just died. You just died five years earlier and you didn't know? It's like, we didn't have these masks, you know, forever. No, we also didn't have antibiotics.

This is true. You know? It's not that bad, dude. I'm so resistant to it. It's actually not that bad. Yeah. It's not? No, it's not that bad.

No. No, if you get one that fits. Bro, you're also a morning sex guy, not a night sex guy, though, too. So if you're a night sex guy, that's kind of... Bro, you don't put it on while you're talking to your wife. You can't talk with... You only put it on when you're ready to go to bed. You know what I mean?

Sometimes that's... I mean, full mask and... No, no, no, no. What do you mean? You go to sleep and then your wife wakes you up? No, like, I mean, we go to bed sometimes, and we go to bed, like, we're just going to go to bed, but then, you know, shit happens. Well, then you take your mask off.

I don't know. She's not... My wife, if she sees me put the nasal strip on, she, oh, we're not having sex tonight, I guess. Yeah, it's like a turn like, I'm an athlete. Yeah, come on. I try, I've tried to cover ones. I try doing the eye, the eyeliner underneath. Right.

I was trying it all, Justin. If I put that no strip on, I may as well just chalk it up. I'm not getting sex tonight. Hold on a second. So I already have, I already have that. Like, wait it, like, okay. It's not going to go in the dark. You can hear me in the dark.

Hold on, but your relationship's a little different because. She's usually the pursuer, right? She tends to pursue more than you do. Yeah, yeah. She would disagree with that now early on in our relationship a lot. But I would say... So then you're the one, if you're pursuing her, don't put it on until you take the shot.

Well, that's what I'm saying. That's like the nose trip one is that I have to wait until I just decided, okay, I'm not going to go after it. And then you put the mask on. And then you go to sleep. You'll get better sleep. You get way better sleep. I'm literally probably going to do it.

And I don't want to. I am, so what I'm curious about is, am I potentially having trouble breathing and that's what's waking me up and then I have to go pee? Yes. So what would close me is if I actually slept through the entire night and I didn't get up to go pee, that would I would probably be sold right away. Because if I still get up to go pee and it's disrupt anyways, and I'm like, well, who cares at that point? Do you sleep on your side with your mask? No, you can sleep on your side. You can upgrade your sleep as well.

Are you? Well, that's what I was definitely. Well, sleep apnea is a whole other level. Yes, that's true. But this should reduce some of that. Anyway. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I probably say one out of 20 times. One out of 20 nights, Katrina might say, oh, you snored a little bit tonight.

But I'm not like a heavy, at least not where I was when I was. I'm at the point where I passed on the couch and I was like, and I heard myself. Well, there's those days. I feel like everywhere should get a pet. There's certain days when you're like exhausted from traveling or something like that. If I pass that on the couch, I'm probably snoring because that means I'm... This has happened

a lot. My grandfather used to snore so loud, guys, that you would... I don't care what room in the house you were in, you heard him. That's Katrina's brother. You know how our family, we always get together and we all stay? We have to put him in the furthest back room, closed door, white noise between the door and him.

Wow. We have to, you have to set his room up, you have to set his room up so he doesn't disrupt all the other bedrooms. Wow. That's how bad it is. And you'd crank that white noise up so loud so it's as like a so it drowns his morning mine got worse uh as i got as i got bigger you know getting on hormone therapy building more muscle definitely got worse oh yeah when i was bodybuilding which is ironic right it was a crazy body fat percentage shape yeah yeah best ship of my life at that time

but well let's be real everybody that muscle is healthy yeah you push it beyond a certain point you're not so true that's just yeah yeah there's no there's no getting our way around you're super jacked you've sacrificed health in pursuit of looking at. And a man like me that naturally no hormones, my body wants to be about a hundred 98 pounds, maybe 200 pound guy. And I was pushing 220 pounds of lean mass. Yeah.

My body. So it's like I'm 20 pounds, 30 pounds over my total weight. My body even wants to be. And Justin was right. Your tongue grows. Yeah. That's what happens. You got to.

I read that. And I was like, yeah. And then I talk a lot. So my tongue hypertrophy. It's a, you know, all kinds of reps. Super hypertrophy. Dude, Justin's got that working. I'm just, imagine if you tell you.

I imagine if you talk this much of English. I do drills and things in the morning. How do I talk to warm up my voice? I mean, Courtney's not mad about it, so it's not a bad thing. He loves it. All the different techniques. All right. I think that's the end there, Doug.

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Our first caller is Kerry from Massachusetts. Hi, Terry. How you doing, Carrie? Hello, hello. Hi, I'm actually from Colorado, not Massachusetts. Oh. A little different. Well, welcome.

Hey, guys. I'll just read my question. So we stay on topic. And generally, my question is about visceral fat and the best way to target it. So I'm 5-6, 43 years old, 160 pounds, 16 to 17% body fat. For reference, my SPDPRs are 402 squat, 232-pound paws bench, 435-pound deadlift. So I'm strong. And I have low body fat.

I'm very happy with my body comp and my strength, but the last place I hold on to fat is my midsection. I have been tracking with ADEXA every three to six months since January of 23. I've been in a slow cut since then, dropping from 192 pounds, 24% body fat, 139 pounds of lean mass in January of 233, down to where I sit now, which is 160, 16% and 129 pounds of lean mass. But here's my problem, my visceral fat. So my visceral fat dropped slowly from one and a half pounds, a volume of 40 in January of 23, down to 1.2 pounds in 8 of 23.

A year later, it was down to just under half a pound. And then in January of this year, it was almost zero. However, in August of this year, it went back up to half a pound. Yes, a half a pound increase is within the margin of error, but in the three years I've been tracking, it's never trended up. I'm not only concerned with the half a pound. The volume is within reason. It's nothing super unhealthy. It's all about the trending going up.

My question is, are you guys familiar with ReHit or any other type of sprint or mass effort training that will target visceral fat directly? No, this is splitting hairs, but for me, a 20-plus year lifter and strength athlete, that's where I am. I don't do any real cardio other than lift my heavy weights faster. I lift heavy three times a week, eat 95% whole foods, hip protein, hit fat, sleep 8 plus hours, reduce stress, sauna regularly, so I'm doing all the things. I really don't want to do any cardio for the sake of cardio. But from the research, I'm seeing this re-hit or sprint training specifically for visceral fat, maybe something I want to add in.

I would love to hear your thoughts. Yeah, good question. And you are really strong. I want to hear those numbers again. I was like, did you say, did you say, did I hear a 400 pounds squat? Yes, sir. 402. And that was in a comp, so it's competition squat.

Okay. 232 paused bench, again, in comp, and then a 435 deadlift. Yeah, that's crazy. I don't think you're going to like our advice. I think you're already unbelievably strong. You're already unbelievably ripped. You actually said it in your question, splitting hairs within the margin of error. But if, I mean, if we want to play this.

splitting hairs game. First off, you mind if I ask you a personal question? Absolutely. Okay. Are you on any hormone replacement therapy or do you use any performance enhancing drugs? Interesting to know. During my max list, I was actually in the tank. I started TRT right out a year ago and I was at zero for everything. Even my cortisol had flatlined. Okay. So about a year, yes. So this change, goes along with starting TRT. I've been about four months of TRT with this increase occurred. Okay, that's, okay, I'm glad I asked. Okay, so you're on hormone replacement therapy, essentially.

Yeah. Okay, good. Yes, HRT. Okay, so what you typically see with visceral body fat changes, and by the way, trending would be two or more measurements, not one. Yeah. So typically I would want to see another measurement to see if we're trending. We're actually trending in a particular direction because it is within the margin.

of error, okay? Typically what you see with visceral body fat percentage on lean individuals, which is what you are, you're sitting at 17% body fat, a lot of lean body mass, you could equate it to hormones. So changes in hormones can change body fat storage distribution. Now in high level athletes, what that looks like is too much stress. Now, I would, I would imagine, especially based off what you told me where all your hormones were in the tank, with your competition and when cortisol is in the tank we used to call that like stage i think it was three adrenal fatigue yeah okay so what that typically tells me is you've probably trained hard and like played with that line of doing enough and doing too much for years and years and

years and so uh the last thing i would have someone like you do try and cut more is it will either cut more or just intense cardio right now if you want to do within intense cardio, we'd have to switch your goals to endurance and stamina. But if you want to continue pushing the limit with strength training, which it sounds like you really enjoy doing, it would just be overall steps. You would want additional activity that is also recuperative, not that, not additional activity that's going to take away from your ability to recover and adapt from your strength training. Does that make sense?

It does. So I have changed and gone away about a year ago. changed and got away from overdoing the strength, because I totally went all in, as you can tell with my numbers. And so in the last year, I've really tried to embrace and refocus on less is more, a lot of what you guys preach. And so I'm definitely on that track. What kind of freaked me out was the visceral vat change while I'm also trying to make this adjustment meant more to less is more. Okay. So you have, we have two, there's like, imagine a Venn diagram. And over here I have health. and over here I have performance, okay? And there's a crossover in the middle.

But if I push far in one direction, I lose from the other one. So if I go hard in performance, I'm sacrificing health. And this is just a reality for athletes. This is all athletes. I don't care what athlete you are. If you compete at a high level,

you are sacrificing health and longevity for performance. That's just, you know, there's nothing you can do with that. We all accept it if we push at that level. if you're looking for maximal, if you want health, then you have to be okay sacrificing some of the performance. If you want to keep pushing performance, then this is a game that you're going to be playing for a long time

and it's going to be a game of, you know, splitting hairs. Right. And so if we're doing that, you know, if you were my client and I'm looking at you, I'm like, okay, 17% body fat, maybe visceral body fat went up a little bit. I'm going to look at things like, you know, carbohydrate types. I'm going to look at, like, glycemic index, you know, maybe a CGM. Let's see if we can keep your blood sugar levels really stable. I'm going to look at, you know, forms of activity that are recuperative, like lots of walking.

Those are the things I would play with while, you know, continuing your track. If we want to move towards health, you're going to, your depth, your body fat percentage needs to go up, and you may sacrifice a little bit of your strength. I mean, you're so strong. You have so much lean body mass. you're so far on that level that that's probably what's going to look like. I mean, we rarely talk to people that have reached probably their genetic potential. You're that percent, that very, very small.

Yeah, you're, you're there. Like, you already won. You won the game. You're like, you're as strong as they get. You're as lean as they get. I mean, if you keep going this direction, it's just, your body, what you probably feel is kind of pushing back a little bit. That's right.

It's not, it's not like. you're doing something wrong is just saying enough is enough we're lean enough we're strong enough you know and then it's it's not really like you did something wrong per se i just think you are you are flirting with that edge and uh yeah something's got to give a little bit either you accept i'm going to be a little bit higher body high which is not high but a higher body fat percentage than i maybe like or you like sal said you might sacrifice some of the strength and and then get healthier, you know, so. But I mean, again, you're, I mean, I personally, if you like what you're doing, I would

stop looking at it so closely. I would, yeah, just stop looking at it with a magnifying glass and just kind of move away from it a little bit. I don't mean move away from training. I don't think I could, I don't think I could rip you away from training if I tried. But just, I just kind of, you know, taking the magnifying glass and then just, you know, maybe taking a big picture look at things and re. maybe redevelop a relationship with it that isn't so connected to, like, extreme performance.

I mean, that's one way to do it. I think that way is going to be a way you're going to have to do at some point. You know, maybe not necessarily now, but, you know, as you get into your 50s and 60s, you'll probably have to move away a little bit. But this is like, like I said, if we're splitting hairs, what we're looking at is glycemic index, blood sugar, hormone profile, you know, like growth hormone, you know, peptides may help a little bit with that. But again, we're still within that margin of error. So, and we'd still be pressing into that kind of performance realm.

Obviously, I knew exactly what you're going to say. And I hear you. And probably a better question for the three of you is, how the hell would you advise me to change my perspective? So yes, I've been an athlete forever. I've lifted forever. I've hyper-focused forever. And I'm really trying hard to refocus. And this is just another thing that I need to refocus and see the bigger picture. So long term wise, I'm trying to get there. But how would you guys help me give me advice to change that perspective? It's not about the 500 pound deadlift anymore. It's about staying strong and being strong. But then I like being motivated along the way. So like how would you advise me to help me change that perspective? I think, I think, um, because

your competitive person like to be able to take um something like meditation or some restorative practices in a competitive repeated uh systematic process where you know this is this is something that's so important that now i'm just i'm elevating this as a priority and how many times i can string days together where i'm applying these restorative practices and um you know it at least if that just opens the door for you to start shifting that that mindset a bit. I went through this process myself, not necessarily the level you're at, but like college football and like training my entire life, like killing myself to the point where that's all I cared about to then dropping off and having to figure out, well, what actually

makes me feel good? What, you know, brings me closer to health and like, Sal's example of the Venn diagram, I think, if you kind of can visualize that of like where I am in that, in that diagram and how I can kind of maybe pull myself for a while in a different direction, competitively, and really challenge yourself to, you know, make effort in that direction. Yeah, well, think about it this way. I'll give you some, I'll give you some, just along the lines of what Justin's saying, I'll give you some maybe some specific steps, okay. If somebody were to ask you, you know, you get some woman who's never lifted before,

20-year-old, she's like, hey, I want to get a 400-pound deadlift. You're going to take her there step by step by step, right? So you've got this ultimate goal, but there's steps along the way. Your ultimate goal is I'd like to have a, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to have a relationship with this where it's really about health and longevity. Okay, that's far away from where you're at right now. Because right now you're like performance, max strength performance. Yeah, you're peak right now.

So let's look at some steps in between. When I've worked with people like you, I'll take them and I'll direct them towards something else that's competitive. That moves us a little bit more towards longevity. So like an example would be Jiu-Jitsu. Maybe let's see if we can get you into Jiu-Jitsu, right? That's competitive as hell.

You'll have to strength train less. You'll probably get really into that. Now that's not the be-all-end-all, but that'll move you way enough, away from what you're doing to kind of get a different perspective on, you know, what performance feels like

that isn't so tied to strength. I like going the unconventional lift too, like getting into a Turkish get-up, you know or like really getting into like a specific movement that is so out of your normal realm and being because I get the competitive I mean this is how I had to move away from the kind of bodybuilding macro focused mentality I had when we started this podcast to get away from that it was like okay I'm going to go the other extreme I still like being competitive I'm going to be competitive about my movement now I'm going to get so kind of obsessed about the way I move and working on my mobility that helped me transition from not caring about what I look like and counting the macros and doing that. that. So I've found that works really good with clients that are like high performers. I use like, how do I take that mentality but shift it more? And I think Jitsu is a good example of that. I think getting into something, a movement or mobility is a good example. Unilateral training might be great,

especially if you're a power lifter. You don't do a lot of, typically a lot of cycles of unilateral training. You know, map symmetry would be a good program to play with. Yeah. And, you know, after a couple months, you could go back and play with your squat and deadlift and get back into it. So that would be an option that's not so far away from what you're doing that it's scary, but it is different. Shifting too far, it would probably be problematic. Oh, yeah. Yeah. If I try, you try to pull in the opposite direction, you're like, I don't want to do this. I'm definitely going to, I'm definitely going to encourage you to try and let go of one of the two main things that I think we got to, which is the 17% body fat or the PRs. So either one of those two has got to get kind of put on the back

point. It's like, okay, let's agree that it's going to be the body fat percentage. We're not doing body fat testing. That's just, that's, we're going to put, throw that away. We're not even using that measurement right now and we're going to focus on these things we're talking about or maybe it's the PR thing since you're so you could lose 50% strength and you're still stronger than 99% of everybody. So whatever one you feel more comfortable with, I'm going to push you in that direction. Like, okay, let's not be measuring both of those and like using that as a North Star. Let's get rid of at least one of them right now. And that's kind of how I'd start to move you in that direction. Ultimately, I mean, it could even be as easy of a step like this. You keep doing what you're doing, but you stop paying

attention to numbers. You stop paying attention to how much you're lifting. You stop paying attention to the scale. You stop paying attention to body fat percent. Tell that's all them, tell that's all them gold medals up on the wall there. So, right? Yeah, there's a bunch. That's really hard to not think about the numbers, but I definitely like the idea. And I've been trying to add in some new things. You guys just did a podcast on the eight exercises you need to do for longevity. And I literally yesterday did lateral walks for the first time. Oh, cool. Yeah. And they were amazing. So I really liked the idea of embracing

something new that I can still be strong as. Yes. Yes. But it kind of adjusts because I'm on a good path for lessening my training and I'm in that direction. So I like the idea of adapting that more. And maybe down the road I can stop worrying about body fat as much, but I think

embracing it one piece at a time is a good recommendation. You know, I love that. I can't and it's one thing I forgot about. And this if you look at the data, what helps people in your situation quite a bit oftentimes is to switch from competing and doing to coaching. And it brings so much purpose and value to high-level athletes who are trying to make that transition is they then start to coach other people. It's a natural evolution.

And it feels so purposeful. Are you not a coach already? Yeah, I've been certified since. 2010. I just don't do it actively as much because we move quite a bit. So I don't have any clients or anything right now. I just continue to learn on my own. But I, you know, I'm always the friend that has the advice. They're always the friend that says, let's go squat. I'll teach you how to squat. Yeah. So it's definitely part of my personality. Oh, man. Yeah. If you're interested in coaching, do you work otherwise? Would this be something? I do. Okay. I work from home. So it's

just something I, I've only really done it for friends and is like a piece of just me is who I am. but not really embraced it as far as employment or for money or anything like that. If you're ever interested in doing it as a, for like as a coach, like working as a coach, apply with us. We're looking to hire. And I'm telling you, it's, if I didn't train people, as bad as my relationship can be with fitness. If I didn't train people, I don't know if I'd be here. It saved me quite a bit because I care so much about the other. It's so easy for me to train people well because I care about them. It made me look in the mirror quite a bit. kind of put some rails on the stuff that I would do.

Look who in the mirror could be pretty scary, but yes, good advice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so awesome. Well, is there anything else we could do for anything we can help you with otherwise? No, I appreciate the perspective for sure. I love what you guys do, and I'll definitely be following you. Thank you. Right on. Thanks for calling in.

Thanks, guys. It's not every day. That's got to be the strongest woman. By far. By far. We haven't had anybody who squats 400? Yeah. Well, first of all, that's super rare.

ridiculously rare but even more rare is a 260 pound bench press for a woman and and carrying yourself at 17% body fat any chick that's pushing that kind of weight is normally a big girl too that is

crazy that she is that ripped that age and then that that oh my god that's crazy and that's got to be so hard to pull away from because you've gotten so much so many accolades you know, just so much encouragement for how well you do.

She's been reinforced. Yeah, she's really at the peak. Yeah, and then you reach a point, you're like, wait a minute. I mean, she's calling about a, within the margin of error of visceral body fat increasing on a dexas scan. Part of me thinks so, she knows us well enough that she knew what we're going to say. I think part of it, she just wanted. Confirmation.

Yeah, she just wanted. I think that's the whole point of bringing that up. It's just I need to hear it from these guys telling me that. Because it sounds like she's already making those steps. The fact that she took that episode, did the lateral. drags and some of that. She's wrestling with it mentally. I mean, someone like that, when I've had clients like this,

no one at that level, by the way, she's like very, very rare. But I've had clients that are obsessed about working out and moving away, like, do really good with finding like a Turkish get up or a windmill. You just got to redirect it. Yeah, and get them like really into because you get, that's a really cool exercise to get really strong in. And it's very difficult and it takes time and it's very rewarding when you get strong at it. And it just helps.

I think she'd be, I think if she became a coach, it would really good advice too. I thought it would really know. I think that's good advice to even, even so if she listens this, even if you don't do it for a professional living, I think even like creating content that's kind of around that. Even a free group. That's exactly. There's a lot of female power lifting. I mean, build a, build a following on social media that's related to that where it's an outlet for you to teach. You don't necessarily have to be paid for classes and on a rigid schedule. It's like when you have time, make a video and post it. our next caller caller is Allison from Indiana. There you go.

Hi, Allison. How are you doing, Allison? Hey, guys. How's it going? Good. How can we help you? Good. First of all, just the traditional, thank you guys for what you do.

You're literally a part of my testimony. I've been listening to you guys for a long time. So excited to be here. Thank you. So my question, I'll go ahead and read it. After a long time of playing golf at an elite level, including three years at a high-level D-1 university. I'm not really sure what comes next.

I've been weightlifting for years. I'm pretty strong, but I've never really been at that goal physique. Since I started playing college golf, I've tried not to worry too much about being at my perfect body fat percentage because I recognize that my body was doing really cool feet, and I was already at the place I need to be at to compete well. but now I have one more year at school and I had to step off the team for personal reasons, but I get the chance to kind of play around with my fitness on my own schedule now.

I'd love to lean out a bit. I'm at about 28% body fat, and I kind of think like 23 to 25% might be my ideal, but I'm kind of stuck on how to get there. I've been doing golf programs that are kind of similar to anabolic for a long time, but I'm wondering, like, fitness-wise, where do I head next? Yeah. Have we tracked macros and calories? You have any idea what you're doing?

I try not to track too closely. I've had problems with that in the past, but I do hit over 100 grams of protein a day and probably 2,000 calories, if I had to estimate. Okay. So typically the strategy, by the way, great goal. I mean, 23 to 25% body fat, very healthy, super achievable. It typically looks like this. Hit your protein, small calorie deficit, focus on strength training, and focus on daily steps.

And so if you do those things on a consistent basis, what you should see slowly over time is a nice body change in composition. So you should see yourself recomp. So slowly get stronger. Protein is consistent. My caloric intake is right around maintenance, sometimes deficit. And you'll see your body slowly change over time. And you'll probably get from 28%, probably within three months, you should be down to right around where you want to be.

So what about program-wise for her? Because I feel like, I mean, she's right at that calorie range where I don't know how much I want to cut you from 2000. And so we technically could lean out just by good. programming, hitting your protein intake, and kind of hovering around maintenance, which I'm totally okay with that, which is kind of that suggestion. If she's running something that is similar to anabolic, maybe going a different direction program. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Do you know what your steps are daily, by the way? Symmetry, maybe. I don't have a number. It's probably 15K. Wow. I'm at a college campus. Yeah. That's a lot of movement. Oh, you're good.

Are you playing any, are you playing golf or like fun or doing that also? Or, okay. How often? Yeah, I mean, golf, I also rock climb. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay, that's a lot of movement for only 2,000 calories. Yeah. If you are stepping 15,000 steps a day, you are rock climbing, playing golf.

And strength training. And strain training. 2,000 calories, we need to go up. We got to go up in calories. And that might be why you're kind of hovering or staying where you're at is you're due for like a reverse diet and need to build. Like slow build. Yeah. How many days a week are you string training? Um, three, three days.

Yeah. Okay. You know, we can switch up your program. We could probably put you on something like symmetry. It would probably be a good program for you just to change things up. And, you know, slowly focus on getting stronger. And through that process, you should see yourself recomp. Because you go on to cut with that much activity already at 2,000 calories, probably not a good idea.

No, no. You're not going to see, you might see a little bit of results in the first week or two. And then after that, you're going to hit a hard plateau. how many days a week would you say you were rock climbing or playing golf consistently? I probably like three days

of like rock climbing or golf and then three days of weightlifting and I always have a rest day. I think she should go Mass 15 or Performance 15. Yeah, I think he's right. Yeah, adding up all that activity. I mean, I'm assuming rock climbing isn't a 20 minute thing.

I'm sure it's hour or hours, right? Well, then you don't have to really consider that yeah like if you just follow the 15 protocol and it's going to compliment it well yeah if you get stronger with your strength training and you're eating healthy and continue your activity then we're moving in the right direction so that's what i would pay attention to so i do agree with them i think mass 15 would be good and i think you'll get stronger pretty consistently week over week on that program i'll have also have Doug put you in the private forum so you can kind of keep us posted as you go through this but if if i'm hitting it right i think you can follow the nutritional advice

at Sal's giving, eat that way, and just follow Mass 15, continue doing what you're doing because you love doing all those things. And I think we could do it. I think you might just be kind of tipping over as far as the amount of activity and training you're doing with as low of calories. And you need just a little bit of a bump in calories and a reduction in probably the amount of physical activity. I think you're going to see positive change. Totally. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. It is a little hard for me to get to the gym that often because it's like a 15 minute jog away. So you can double them up. You could double them up.

So the way Map 15s, it could be three days or it could be six days. So, yeah, so there's two exercises, basically there's two exercises a day. And all you would do is put day one and day two together, day three, day four together, day five, and day six together. So if it's more convenient to just go three times. But the amount of volume that's in there is what I'm looking for, I actually think that, you know, symmetry or anabolic or any of those other ones are a little more volume than I want you doing with all the stuff you have going on. Okay. I think you'll see better results with that. Yep.

Yep. That sounds great. Thank you guys so much. You got it. All right, Allison. All right. All right. Bye.

I like that her goal is good. Yeah, it's a healthy goal. She gives a good goal. Yeah. That's a lot of activity. A ton of activity. I'm glad you asked. For only 2,000 calories.

Yeah, I'm glad you asked that. You know, this is, this happens to, that's why I was like it didn't, 2000 calories is not necessarily bad. But with that much activity. With that much activity where she's at her body is just adapted. You know, it's gotten to a,

point where it's like, hey, she's only going to fees as much and we're doing a lot of shit. It's so counterintuitive, right? People don't get it. You eat more in a situation like that and you get leaner. Yeah. That's what happens. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Our next caller is Steve from Texas. Hey, Steve. What up, Steve. Hi, guys. You doing? How can we help you, man? Great. So I'll just jump into the email that I sent to Margaret. Talked for a couple times back around January or so. Right before I started my cancer journey, December last year, right after Christmas, I was diagnosed with throat cancer and just I knew I was going to treatment is going to take a lot off

me so I wrote and said you know told her a little bit about my story and she took it to you guys and you all recommended the maps transform program for me so completed all my surgery and treatment latest scans just as of last month showed cancer free and just kind of on the road to remission and recovery from there. Made my way through maps transform, and I'm feeling great. Treatment took 35 pounds off me that I wasn't really willing to lose. I've gained back 20 pounds while building muscle and staying lean. And that muscle memory that you guys talk about is a real thing.

And I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank you all. I thank Margaret for her help and then just kind of see where to go from here. professionally. I'm a police officer. I work on a full-time SWAT team. So strength, mobility, and then resiliency is my main focus. I just turned 45 this year. I got two young kids. So I want to be around and stay mobile for all that. Yeah. Wow. Awesome. Great. Congratulations, by the way, on your diagnosis. That's great, man. That's awesome. Mass 15 performance would be a great transition from Transform. Love that. That'd be perfect for you right now. Yep. Yep. Okay. I'm in the middle of I'm anabolic right now.

I bought anabolic after I was done with this, just to give that a try on week four. And my lifts are back up to pre-diagnosis before I got sick and probably surpassing that now. Wow. That's great. Hell yeah. You know, shoulder pain, you know, dealt with shoulder pain for a lot of years.

None of that is present on any of the lifts, on any of the presses. So, but yeah, I'll give that 15 a try. Skip phase three. Skip phase three on anabolic. So when you're done with phase two, go straight to performance 15. Okay. And you'll still keep getting stronger.

Yeah. That's it, man. Fantastic. Easy, brother. And I'd love to hear back from you. Yeah. Sure, yeah. I'll stay in touch.

I'll email back with Margaret, let her know how it goes and just keep listening to you guys. You guys are fantastic. I appreciate it. That's great, man. I appreciate you telling the story. you that's great man god bless we'll send that over to you sure thank thank you that's great that is great that is really great news a year ago lost all that gained it back through it curious too it'll be interesting uh the 15 i think the the right answer right away

after transform was what you said the fact that he's been doing anabolic seen such good results that's because well he's in phase he's week four so he just finished phase one yeah he's in phase two phase three ramps up the volume and i think that wouldn't be a good idea to jump into that. I think he's feeling strength because of phase one and because of the muscle memory. Yeah. So finish phase two. You know, that's like your 8 to 12 rep range. Still, volume is still. That's okay. Yeah. And then 15 performance will keep him going with that frequency. That's right. Okay. Our next caller is Lane from Arizona. Lane, what's happening? What's going on, Lane?

What's up, guys? Yo, this is crazy. It's really good to meet you guys. Thanks for having me on the show. You guys are amazing. Been listening to you guys for years. I'll get right into my question if that's cool. Yeah, let's do it. Do it. All right. Just go pull it up here. I'm very nervous, so I'm going to read straight from the question. I see why people do that now. So yeah, I cannot squat. For years now, I've been able to progressively overload four of the five big barbell movements pretty successfully, except for the squat. I'm not the strongest because I've always struggled with discipline and consistency. I've been chasing that 225 bench still, but nonetheless, I have been able to go from about a 115 to a 190

bench in the past five years I've been training on and off. I know pretty pathetic, but again, consistency is key, and I failed at that. I've been able to squat 200, though my form is probably questionable, which is probably part of the problem. More recently, I've tried programming a full body day once a week consisting of these big five movements, and I cannot seem to squat comfortably anymore, regardless of the weight. Even the bar is hard for me. I struggle to get even 10 reps with it. The best way I can describe the problem is a combination of poor mobility and a lack of neural drive to my CNS, maybe not the proper term, but you get where I'm coming from. It just feels so much harder than it should. I assume as with most things in life, the reasons for this issue are

just that, reason, plural, not just one thing. Again, probably poor form early in my lifting journey, which I have attempted to correct and I think have made improvements on. I also work in construction and have done some damage to my knees, hips, and low back as a result. I also live in Arizona, so working in the summer certainly drains a lot of my energy that I would otherwise be able to take advantage of in my training, especially being on my feet 10 hours a day, I assume that alone can affect my ability to squat, but I may be wrong. I also don't get enough sleep, which is on me, but at the same time, getting up at 4 a.m. means getting to bed by 7 or 8 p.m. at the latest, which is rarely realistic for me. Granted, I am planning on leaving the construction industry and

pursuing what I love fitness. I'm currently enrolled in the ISSA certification program, and I'm going to become a personal trainer, but if I'm being honest, I don't want to be the trainer that can't even high bar squat at the bar. I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to get to a place where I can make real progress without making the problem worse. Thanks, guys. Yeah. First off, you don't have to be able to lift anything to be a good trainer.

You just have to be able to be a good coach. Sure. That being said, I mean, you said it. It feels like a lack of neural drive, which is probably the case, and it's probably due to the sleep and or nutrition. Okay. So that's it right there. The program I would have a guy like you follow would be Maps 15.

no more than that and I would really try to string some days of sleep you would be shocked at the difference sleep can make or to put it differently how the difference lack of sleep

overtime will have on the body and it does very very strongly impact the central nervous system it just fries the body dude so Maps 15 have Doug send that over right and then I also I'd like to throw you in the forum

because I'd actually like to see the squat Because if I can see them, if I can see the squat, I can actually give you, like, more precise. Typically, hips and ankles tend to be the go-to place that I got to address. And so if I actually see you moving, I can give you even more advice, like, hey, let's work on the 1990s. Let's do some combat stretch while we also do that. And also keep in mind, too, while we're working on these things, you know, Bulgarian split squats are fine. You know, lunges are fine. but I think your question is good

because I think you shouldn't just give up that I'll never squat it's like why am I not able to refuse to do that right right right so I appreciate that you know timing we'll do Bulgarians whatever that but then we can start working on these things and again I'm just spitballing and guessing because I haven't seen it

but I'll put you in the forum so I can see it and I mean frequency is key like you had mentioned as well and to do that as well like body weight squats are great and valuable you can even And so I always tend to kind of point people towards this dumpy squat. Reason being is because what I'm trying to do is to increase that, that tension and to be able to produce more force output. So to be able to sit where, you know, it might be your weakest point of the lift to then transfer that to come back up, to recruit as much and maximize that process, to really focus on that isometrically.

And, you know, between that and box squats and really kind of like taking that head on to start really driving more connection there and maximizing your force output is going to help a lot. You know, obviously the mobility and the limitations, you know, need work and attention with that. But, I mean, that's the majority of, you know, what's really going to drive your numbers up. Yeah, Lane, I can't stress this enough, right? So, because I've had a few clients with some pretty difficult situations, less is more. I can't stress this enough. Yep. So you could start with MAPS 15.

If you don't see yourself getting stronger, like right away, then you could go MAPS 15 every other day. You can follow the program and do day one on Monday, day two on Wednesday, day three on Friday. You're not even on a seven-day schedule. You're just every other day following routine. I've had clients like you where we had to scale back, scale back, scale back, scale back, and then finally we saw some progress. Give me an idea what the sleep does look like. Honestly, you wake up at four.

On average, on average, what time are you falling asleep? On average, I mean, between 9 and 10 p.m. on a regular basis. And then I also know what's just as important or what's just right under the importance of the amount of sleep is sleep frequency and a circadian rhythm. And I always make the mistake of waking up way later on the weekends than I do on the weekdays, right? So that's a huge issue too. But throughout the week, it's, I mean, I'm getting five to six on a regular basis.

Yeah. Less is more, dude. So when you get Mass 15, if you don't see yourself getting stronger by week two, scale it back. And keep scaling it back until you see yourself start to progress. For sure. And then just one more thing, you know, I agree. And I know that the sleep is really the foundational thing here. Is there any tips you guys have, also having busier lives than me, I would argue, how you guys can get to bed and wake up on a regular basis, even though, you know, it's difficult to do.

Are you able... Routine before bed. Yeah, do you have a lunch break? I do. I have multiple breaks throughout the day. Yeah. How long is your longest break? 30 minutes. Do you, are you able to take a nap? Nah, I'd be napping on a steel table if I did.

Yeah. Yeah, there's not... Or in my car, I guess. I can take a nap in my car. You know, honest to God, 15 minute naps, they actually make a pretty big difference

when you string a bunch together. If you can do it. Yeah, they make a pretty big difference. That would be it, bro, because you're in, you're hard labor, you know,

you're waking up early. You know, you could have a sleep routine and do all that. I would say, oh, don't sleep in on the weekend, but that's probably saving your butt right now. I know.

It's to sleep in on the weekend. That's what I feel. Yeah. Yeah, it's a tradeoff, dude. It's like, you know, when you wake up at four on Saturday and Sunday, too, you'll be, you'll be more fried than you feel now.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I appreciate it. I do like the routine advice, though, with Justin's saying, I do think that trying to create some sort of consistency around, you know, this is what time I hit dinner. And by this, no later than this time, I'm at least in bed with no electronics and just trying to try and to get in it.

Calm the system as much as possible. Two supplements I would, there's a few supplements I would recommend to you that you could look at. Ashragonda is at the top. Rodeola would be another one. Panex ginseng would be another one. They all just kind of help the body. kind of handle stress. But

Aschragonda at the top. Absolutely. All right. Awesome, man. You guys, and, you know, I love you guys. You guys are amazing. And as a lot of people have said, you know, on the show, Sal, I commend you and your courage for your faith. I'm also on that same walk and just recently started to give my life to Christ. So, man,

I love you for that. Thank you. I love the rest to you guys. Man, you guys have so much wisdom and you're so respectful and humble. And you guys just are amazing. And I try to turn people on to your podcast. all the time. I appreciate it, man. Thank you, Lane. Thank you, Lane. Yep. Yep. Yep. Thanks, guys.

I had a client. I just remembered this. I've had a couple clients like this, but I had one guy that I train. I'll be careful how much I say because he was a high-level executive. I'll just say that. Think of like some of the top tech companies in the Bay Area. He was second. Okay. Okay. And his schedule was ridiculous, like crazy. And he hired me to train him. And I knew he had a crazy schedule. And I worked with him two days a week. And when I started with him, I thought what I was doing with him was appropriate intensity and volume because it was very little. And we would just not progress. And I'm like, is it, am I doing still too much? Like, what's going on here? And I scaled it back. This is what our workouts look like.

Two exercises twice a week. That's when he started to see strength gains. It was, he would come in and we would do squats and bench. And I'm talking like 75% intensity. And then the next time he came in, I'd do two more exercises. And that was when we finally started to see strength gains. I had to so far back because he was just this stress burning the candle it was just so much that it was full

and that was the only way we can make progress look if you like Mind Pump come find us on Instagram we'll see you it's at Mind Pump Media thank you for listening to Mind Pump

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