Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2717: Pain Isn't What You Think w/ Dr. Jordan Shallow

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Jordan Shallow Keeping skin in the game. (2:12) What is pain? How to differentiate it from an injury. (5:50) Pain is a perception. (11:55) Active inference. (24:12) Minimizing the prediction error model. (25:49) Does exercise change your relationship with pain? (30:43) The dualism between the mind and the brain. (40:10) Trying to see things mechanistically. (46:56) "My job is not to be right, but to help people." (49:21) Debunking the idea of being a forever student. (53:36) Thinking faster, not slower. (57:43) His take on adjustments. (59:22) The importance and value of progressive overload. (1:00:37) Why have injury rates in sports increased over the years? (1:05:36) Specific variability. (1:13:08) Athlete savants. (1:16:54) Related Links/Products Mentioned Related Links/Products Mentioned Pre-Script® | Human Performance Education Get a free Sample Pack of LMNT's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase! As always, LMNT offers no-questions-asked refunds on all orders. The 8-count LMNT Sample Pack doubles down on our most popular flavors: Citrus Salt, Raspberry Salt, Watermelon Salt, and Orange Salt (2 stick packs of each flavor): Visit DrinkLMNT.com/MindPump October Special: MAPS GLP-1 is 50% OFF! Use code GLP50 at checkout: Mind Pump Store The Monkey Business Illusion - YouTube Active inference as a theory of sentient behavior - ScienceDirect What Is It Like to Be A Bat - University of Colorado Boulder Is exercise more effective than medication for depression and anxiety? Trends and mechanisms of Alzheimer's disease and hearing impairment: A 20-year perspective Mind Pump #1927: Performance Training Secrets from a Top NBA Trainer With Cory Schlesinger ACL Injury Compilation - YouTube Kim Peek, the Real Rain Man - Psychology Today Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Jordan Shallow D.C (@the_muscle_doc) Instagram Cory Schlesinger (@schlesstrength) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump, Mind Pump with your hosts. Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded. Fitness Health and Entertainment Podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode. We have Dr. Jordan Shallow on talking all about pain.

What is it? Why is it so complex? How do you avoid it? How do you treat it? How do you work around it? He's the guy to talk about this. By the way, you can find them on Instagram at the underscore muscle underscore doc. And you can also find them on his website pre-dashcript.com.

This is certification for trainers and coaches. This episode is brought to you by a sponsor, Element. This is an electrolyte powder. You add to your water. It has enough sodium to make a difference. Most electrolyte powders don't even have enough sodium. This one is 1,000 milligrams per serving. No artificial sweeteners, no sugar.

Go check them out. Go to drink elementt.com forward slash mind pump. If you make a purchase, you'll get a free. sample pack of the most popular drink mix flavors. Also, two days left for our 50% off sale, MAPS GLP1. This is a workout program with diet, supplement, and lifestyle advice for people who are using somaglutide, terseptide, Wagovi, OZempic. If you're using a GLP1, you want to lose the most amount of fat and keep the muscle, follow this program. Otherwise, you run the risk of losing lots of muscle. Go check it out. Go to Maps, glp1.com. Use the code GLP 50 for the 50% off

discount. All right, real quick, if you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstore.com. I'm talking right now, hit pause, head on over to mindpump store.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Jordan, welcome back. Hi. To the show. I feel like a perennial co-host. Yeah. Once a year, once every 60 months. No, you're definitely up there with one of our friends. It's probably been the most. There's only a couple people, I think, that have been more times than you have now on the show. And then I always have to do another show afterwards to break down everything that you tell everybody.

Good for content. I know the game. We'll get two episodes. Just trying to help the boys out, you know? You get the high level this way. So what you've been up to, man? This is the last time? Oh, man. I'm funny, I should have listened to our old podcast. I should have done my homework. What have I been up to? I mean, prescript, spoken. And I got in real heavy last couple of years into the concierge one-on-one. Like I take on maybe a client a year, sometimes too, usually post-op rehab.

So that's kind of been my big personal focus outside of like a business development and what we've been doing with Prescript over the last, oh, it's been almost nine years now, nine years. So I like keeping, you know, skin in the game. So I've been taking on post-op rehab clients. What do you mean by that skin of the game just keeps you just your finger on the pulse

of what's happening? Yeah, you know, With growing the business, I could never be one that just steps away. I have to step into something. So, you know, when we're growing, expanding our team, usually we're growing it because there's stuff that I can't do anymore because I'm taking on these clients in like a really intimate capacity. So I'm taking on, you know, usually pretty severe, complicated post-op rehab cases

where, you know, I just relocated to San Francisco. I just finished a contract. But with my time then taken up by like, oh, I'm actually doing. the thing, right? There's a lot of like faceless education companies out there, especially in the training space where, I don't know, like, I don't want to name names, but like if you look across in the big certifications, who's developing this curriculum, right? Based off of what, like, what problems are they trying to solve, right? So for me, it's really important as, you know, as we develop curriculum and we consistently evolve it, that it's like, I can keep forward facing to our,

to our trainers and our coaches and our clinicians that we, that we teach, but also like, be, empathetic to the problems that they have to solve. Right. Like I have to have a proof of concept. I'm not just sitting in my basement, you know, living off the interest. It's like I'm traveling with clients, training, rehab every single day in a really high stakes environment so that when I come down and I teach whether it's online or whether it's live in person, it's like, oh, okay, no, like this guy, he gets it. He walks it. He talks it. How often are you changing the education or how often does like a one-on-one client make you pivot or add. to the course. I mean, are you, so...

Is that happening? Oh, yeah. Yeah, every semester's different. That's why we were, like, we never pre-record anything. Every semester is taught live. So like L1 is 16 weeks, and it's not like you can start whenever. It's like, no, no, semester starts this day. We teach it live every week, four lectures a week, seven labs a week for 16 weeks. And then, but it's like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. By the time you get to the other side of it. Start and over there. Yeah, and like things come and, I mean, geez, you guys would keep the finger on the pulse better than anyone. Like things come in vogue, right? The, you know, the neuromechanical matching stuff

we've had to talk about a lot in the last couple years, right? People were really about glute training for, you know, six, eight months. And that was last and it was back to glutes. And then it's like, so there's just things like you have to keep your finger on the pulse of. Like this industry is, when you're in it long enough, it's cyclical and you start to see the same things over and over again. But when people are coming to you, and they're not just coming to you for like principles, They're coming for you to learn how to solve problems. And as you can help them navigate these things that their clients are asking about every single day, like, what do I do? What do we do with this supplement?

Or what do we do? What about this exercise? It's like, for us, it's so important to like be able to not only keep our finger on the pulse as our clients or as our coaches interact with us, but as I interact with my clients and our other instructors, they're also coaching in the field that we can get ahead of it. I would love to ask you this question because this just happened yesterday. We had a live caller call in. So you know, on some of our podcasts, those callers will call in the lastest questions. And it was this kid who had done a lot of powerlifting. He was in his 20s.

And then he didn't tell us how this happened. But he's like, I started getting all this like pain and immobility in my upper back area. My shoulders were tight. He's like, I was super limited. And then I got your prime pro program. And I did, I don't remember what movement he did in there. And I don't think it's even important. He was a scapular push up.

Something. It was one of the mobility. And he's like, and suddenly the pain went away and I could move and I felt good. And so what's happening in situations like that where people are in pain? Then they do something. They work with a correctional exercise specialist like you or someone else. And it's something they've been dealing with for a couple years. And then the pain is gone.

What's happening? How many episodes do you want to record after that? I mean, it's a great question. Right? Because pain. Pain's super weird and complicated. Okay. Do we want to do this?

Lock the doors. Okay. But let's talk because we need to differentiate a few things. And I hope by the end of this, we can land this and answer. This is the whole episode. What's the timer out? Yeah, yeah. We're good.

So what is pain? Let's start here. Yeah. Like, what is, how would you, how would you answer that question? Pain is an experience. I think if I had, I like that. It's a signal. Yeah.

I like to. Can I, can I call attention to the four jacked men in the room, not talking about it being an emotion? I just want to shine light on that. Doug's a little bit more. He's with me. We're a little bit more evolved. So it's an emotion. It's a signal.

Sure. I like the experience. I like the experience a lot. Okay. Yes. Right. Yes. It is,

it is whatever it is. So pain is, it's an emotion. It's a, it's a sensation. It's a drive state. Those are like your common ones. You'll see it's an experience.

But pain is, the pain, when I look at this, pain is ultimately a perception. Yeah. So let's put a pin in that. Pain is a perception. We'll come back to that.

Now, there's a difference. We got to differentiate pain from sort of two different things. Injury and pain are two different things. We know this. We know this. We know this empirically. Right.

So like if we were to, I mean, I forget the exact numbers, but if we were to look at, um, the data on asymptomatic lumbar spine MRIs, right? How many people just cruising around like, oh. Yeah. Hey, can we, we take a picture of a little back real quick? Sure. I think, as you know, this is a chiropractor. I think it's 52%.

Yeah, it's a huge percent. Right. Just like, oh, do you know, like, the jelly out of the donut is poking into your spine? And it's like, oh, no, way. So it's like, okay. So there's a difference between pain and injury, right? So here we have tissue damage, right? Which would be, like, more consistent with an injury.

Sure. And we have no experience of pain. There's a really interesting case study in the British Medical Journal about a guy who, is that a construction site? Fell off a ladder, had a 15 centimeter nail. I don't know, inches that for me. I had no idea to our freedom friend. I don't know. A seven-inch nail, let's call it.

Went through... Went through... Went through his boot. Went through his boot. Oh, okay. And it's like, fuck. So much pain. Right?

Unbelievable pain. They're like, they can't even... They're pumping them full of morphine to lot it just to get him in the truck. Get there. Get them in the x-ray. Because they don't want to pull the boot off because you don't know what...

Yeah. What it hit. Yeah. To the toes. We're right between his toes. Yeah. So he's... Here we have, it's interesting, right?

Because now we have pain. He's never going to live that down at work. Oh, for sure. But we have pain with no injury. Yeah. Right? So you have the, you know, you can look at the research on the lumbar spines where you have injury with no pain.

Yeah. And you have pain with no injury. So you have like this people take, it's about taking this Venn diagram of pain and injury that most people think is in a circle and all of a sudden going like, oh, these are like two completely unique things. So that's, that's one thing we have to. look at it. It's like we have to heal an injury. We have to unlearn pain.

Unlearn. And that's... Look at the data on antidepressants and pain. Suddenly people's low back pain goes away because we're on antidepressant. Oh, yeah. It's funny how that works. And you can see how intervention, and this will get back to our topic of conversation around perception, how the perceived severity of an intervention, right, Len, so let's, if I give you, and there's difference even between giving you like a capsule versus a tab, versus a tab, versus a liquid gel.

Like, why do you think Advil has the little liquid in it? It's the same thing. It's the same bioavailability, but you see it and you go, oh, the drugs. Yeah, I don't know. But compare that to an injection. Yeah. Compare that to a sham surgery. So the more severe the perception of the intervention, the better the outcome when it

comes to the experience of pain, right? Now, there's a third thing we have to differentiate because I want to get back to perception, because that'll take us the rest of the hour. And that's the difference between no seception and pain, right? Explain. So no susceptors, like, no susceptors are the sensory component of pain. Right. Which means it's not, it's not, doesn't mean just because we flick this switch,

that then the no susceptor is active that we experience pain, right? There are people who walk across hot coals, right? Have you ever seen the ant gloves in the Amazon? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Have you ever seen that? No.

Holy shit. Ant gloves? Yeah. Oh, yeah, dude. It's like a testament. Antenhan. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. And there's like red ants in there.

I've never heard of that. It's, yeah, it's like, imagine a bar mitzvah, but rather getting a bearer bond. Your relatives are like, in the ant gloves you go. And you have to hold it for fun. And you see these, and obviously it's distressing. But like, so what we'd be seeing is like whatever, you know, toxin or poison or whatever it is that's causing the pain is, is the trigger, or the sensitization of these no susceptors, which, which signal the sensory experience

of pain. But every word in that matters signaled the sensory experience of pain. And this is where we get into perception. Because ultimately, you know, we had all like, it's an emotion, it's a drive state, but it's perception. It's also memory, right? Oh, sure. Yeah. And the, okay, memory is another podcast to say that. Sorry, I know. Memory is super interesting. Like the idea of muscle memory, like one of the things that people don't understand when we talk about muscle memory is a quick aside is they actually, it's not that they don't know how muscles work, because they don't know how memory works. And that's a whole other bag of cats.

And so perception. Perception is generative. And that's, it's such a hard thing to grasp because as trainers, as coaches, really as people, we have no reason to believe that what we're taking in right now doesn't exist, right? It only exists so far as the tools we have to perceive it can generate it, right? Because we think that our eyes and our senses are taking in data from a mind independent reality, that our brain takes in a passive imprint, like a video camera.

That's not how it works at all. Our brain has way more infrastructure dedicated to generating our reality than to take in our reality. So when we think about pain as a perception, we have to understand perception. And we have to understand how is we perceive this experience. Like what is going on? How do we generate this conscious theater? Because when we think about, like let's just think about visible light for a second, right?

the electromagnetic spectrum, going back to grade 10, I don't know, biology or whatever, grade 10 science class, do you know how much, what percentage of visible light that our eyes, what's that? Is it like 20%? No. That we actually see. 0.000000.035%. So if we think of the electromagnetic spectrum and we think of how much we are taking in, right?

Like we just have these arbitrary evolved tools that are evolved for survival and not truth. So our eyes are only evolved to see between this frequency and this frequency. And that frequency is the frequency of visible light, right? Red, orange, yellow, blue, and to go wild, right? Have you guys ever seen the monkey illusion or the monkey business illusion? Yeah. Okay. So if I explain it, maybe you'll have seen it.

Three people wearing white t-shirts, three people wearing black t-shirts in a small, little small stage. And the prompt is follow how many times or count how many times. Right, okay. where the ball passes and the monkey walks through. Do you remember the first time you saw that? Yeah. No, I didn't see the grill at all. You didn't see it at all, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's fucking crazy. Yeah. And so for those, like, I don't know if you go pull it up or I'll explain it. So essentially there's six people on this stage. Three are wearing white t-shirts. They're wearing black. And the prompt is, okay, how many times is the people in the white shirt passed

to the people in the white shirt? Yeah. So if they go around, it's maybe 30 seconds. And at the 15 second mark, someone in a gorilla costume, walks in the middle of the fucking thing, beats their, chest a few times and exits stage right. And I was the same way. Like you just don't see it. You don't perceive. So fascinating. It is so fascinating. But this has a lot to do with pain because it's our perception that's sort of like fooling us. Right. So think of it this way.

What's like what is there's an equation that allows our brain to develop our perception. It's called the Bayesian equation. Anyone that ever takes statistic, Bayesian inference? Okay. So I'm not a huge math guy, so I'm not going to bore you with it. But essentially there's, There's three components to the way we develop our perception. There's three data points that come together because clearly one's not enough. The sensory component of just experiencing the pain, like, if I put my hand in the ant glove, I'm going to, I'm going to cry all mercy, right? Because there's no significance to this, right?

There's no, it means nothing to me. I'm not now a man because I did the Amazonian ant glove trick. Right? But you watch these kids like meditate it away or like, for me, one of the favorite examples, a thick quang duck, the Vietnamese monk that set himself on fire. It's a rage against a machine album cover.

Right? The guy's sitting down. It's like, you know, like if my oatmeal's too hot, I've ruined my fucking day, right? This guy self-emolates in front of the Cambodian embassy and he's just sitting there meditating away.

So it's clearly just activating that no susceptress switch isn't just this lights on to the experience of pain. It's a data point. So when we look at our perception, And this is true of the experience of pain. It's true of the experience of not seeing the fucking gorilla suit because our perception is built up of one, sensory data, right? So in the case of the power lifter, there's likely sensory data there.

There's a no susceptor that's sensitized. And look, that in itself is a whole field of study. How does inflammation alone drive the sensitization? My itself is complex as heck. Oh, yeah. But one of the main things that inflammation could do, and there are a lot of other things that could do this is increase the sensitization of a nosusceptor.

So you got to imagine you have this nocicepter that just has this hair pin trigger, right? That it takes such a little stimulus to feel this pain. You look at conditions like fibromyalgia and things like that. Which you have this sensitization of a nociceceptor. So raw sensory data.

So we'll use the monkey business illusion. Your eyes, when you're looking at these people throwing the basketball around, they're up waiting for the color white. Now, why white and black? Because they're a complete other ends of this electromagnetic spectrum, right? So they're up waiting for this, which means they're down waiting for this. So we're getting a different, we're looking for something different. We're generating something different. So we have raw sensory data, right? Like that could be as true, that's a true of any sort of sensory apparatus

that we have. It feeds part of our perceptual engine, our perceptual inference machine. Then we have a prior experience. Right. Like a prior experience, shapes the way we perceive thing, right? Like our prior experience of, say, I'm sitting in a coffee shop in San Francisco. And I hear, you know, what sounds like, like claws on the tile floor. I'm going to assume dog. My prior experience is there I've seen dogs in coffee shop. So often the peripheral over my laptop, I'm sitting there.

And I just, my brain actually generates a dog because it generates everything, right? Like there's no sunshine inside my skull, right? It's our, are the photons of light that hit our retina stimulate the generation of our experience, right? It's called active inference. It's the way our whole conscious theater comes to be. It's not like all of this exists because we know there's radio frequencies. We know there's all of these other tools, just on the electromagnetic spectrum alone, all of these radio frequencies or all of these frequencies on this spectrum. We just have this weird apparatus that goes, no, no, only this stuff.

only this point zero zero zero zero zero three five right so it's such a small window so we use our prior experiences to help generate like when dude looked at the boot right dude looked at looked at looked down on the boot and went oh maybe he's had this happen before ouch out there's pain right so the prior experience and the sensory data kind of get weighted together right like if i'm in a coffee shop and i spent a lot of time in colorado this year i saw a lot of bears like an uncomfortable amount of bears, which is like one is an uncomfortable amount of bears. Some of the places I was at, you see videos of like bears strolling into coffee shops. It's going to, so it's interesting.

Imagine the setting is completely the same. I'm the same distance to the door. I get at the same frequency of sound, but I have a prior experience that's different. My attention is going to get drawn to that and generate a bear quicker. Right now, what if, what would it take for me to have, my brain generated bear in San Francisco. That fucking thing would be sitting down eating my croissant.

It would have to be that close for my sensory data to upweight my prior experience. So those are two components. We have a prior experience and we have our sensory data and we have what's called the normative value.

And the normative values, I think it's really, it speaks a lot to what we do, right? Because the normative value is like, well, let's say bears versus aliens. It's like, well, we know bears exist. And, you know, depending on how much tinfoil

you have on your head, it's like, well, maybe aliens exist, maybe they don't. So the example I like to use for the normative value is every now and then, and I'm sure this has caught your eye, someone on a big platform comes on and goes, well, deadlifts are bad for your bad. Right? I'm sure you, do you guys contend with this recently? No, I've seen a couple posts. I've seen or replied to? Because I would have loved to have, like, could you, Doug, can you pull that up for me? But it's like, but let's think about this. And I've had to, you know,

some of the clients I work with are a little bit older and they're very influenced. by this. And now you have this normative value. So imagine like we did bicep curls and our biceps got sore and we did deadlifts. And we could somehow equate for, you know, the hydrogen ions that accumulate and the metabolites and the byproduct and the muscle damage and all that that creates muscle soreness. And we could take that same state and put that in the muscles of the low back, right, whether it's, you know, your erectors or your your QL or even your lats and your glutes or your deep spinal. And you could create. And you could create that. create that same sensory environment, right?

Same sense that feels, people would if the normative value is high enough, generate the experience of pain. Yeah. I hurt myself. I hurt myself. It's like, no, your low back is just sore because you're using it because it's a muscle like anything else. But the normative value is so potent, right?

So when, you know, I hate to pick on boomers, but like my parents, for example, when they do that and they listen to these other boomer podcasts bang on about stuff they don't know about, it's like, no, no, no, you're, you're fun. But what I'm able to do is I'm able to actually shift their perception because I'm changing the normative value. So when we're dealing with pain, we have to understand these three components because pain is it's an emotion, it's a sensation, it's a drive state. But at its core, it's part of our perception. And our perception is generative. Our perception is fallible, right?

It's interpreting different sets of data in different weights to come up. with this equation. So it's it's a bit of a circuitous way around the question, but it's it could be any one of those things. You know, maybe if we look at, okay, he's getting mid back tightness. He does a serratus thing. He probably is compressed through the posterior thorax. He's probably on high tone through his spinal erectors. He probably the way that the autonomic nervous system contracts the ilio costalis and logissimus and these true spinal muscles changes the way that gravity interacts and it changes the demand on those muscles. So they go from high tone to low tone just like, oh, hey, your shoulder blades are always pinned together because you're this power lifter guy. You went through some protraction.

You were able to move your ribs around a bit and you release some of the tone, desensitized the nosusceptor. Right. That's probably the likely scenario in his case. You know, I doubt he has any trauma associated with pinning his shoulder blades together. But there may be, hey, he really likes you guys. He called in. He's maybe a dedicated person that's listened to. and you've helped them before.

I have a prior experience of when mind pump tells me to do something, it works out pretty well, right? So that plays a factor. Sure. Right? Now I think, you know, with, but it compounds on each other.

You have a prior positive experience because you've been able to dig to maybe some mechanical route, but we can never underestimate the potency of these things in the way it alters the perception. That's why I think probably the best success rate

for dealing with chronic pain is somebody that understands all those things and works with someone. I think a person working with a person who's helping them through these things, who understands these things, I think they typically have the best success rate. Somebody who understands correctional exercise, but also is there to kind of show support, a little bit of confidence.

And then the movement itself gives you some of that feedback. Like, I couldn't move before and now I can, confidence, I did it, doesn't hurt, it's not going to hurt again, while I feel great. And I got this guy over here that I really like, and I really trust he's making me feel good about this.

And I think the success rate is just great when it comes to pain, chronic pain, working with somebody that understands those things. Yeah. And I mean, our small end of the wedge that goes into the door is the exercise, right? For a lot of us, it's because I think, you know, that what I just rambled off in very short order, and it's much more complex than that is some, it's a cognitive theory called active inference, right?

Predictive processing model. It's sort of like emerging neuroscience in the way that our brains generate reality, right or our reality because like what would this room look like if we were a bat is sort of like the famous is this sort of philosopher neuroscientist named thomas nagle and he wrote this article called what's it like to be a bat right it's sort of uh it's sort of like an essay on consciousness like well think about the spectrum right think about that spectrum they don't have eyes that are capable of taking in the frequency of photons at that so it's like this room looks way different right but maybe they're able like dogs that smell cancer what i i can maybe smell

of dinner is ready or something's burning on the stove. Other than that, it's just not a perceptual experience that I have, right? So many coaches, not so many, but I see there's a push in the industry of like, the consciousness of coaches. It's like, I'm not a shrink. Right. Like, I'm like, dude, I'm an idiot, right? Like, I have two shrinks. That's how messed up my head. But it's like, but my, your wedge in the door is like, look, we're going to, we're going to live over here in this sort of like mechanical no susceptor. Like, we're really going to get good. And, at this, right? Now, in doing this, we find like a progression regression regression model that allows us to meet a client exactly where they're at,

overcome a fear around a movement, introduce some variability, some novelty, right? It's essentially what happens is feeling good in this model is called minimizing prediction error. Right. So prediction error is essentially when you go to teach a new client and exercise, there's a complexity to it, right? We can take this for Granted, because we've been lifting our whole lives, relatively speaking. You have someone who's in their mid-30s, 40s, whatever, someone who just started exercising, and you're trying to teach them something,

they're making a prediction about how that exercise is going to. They watch you do it, pick anything off the shelf, I don't know, a lunge, a bench press, whatever. Things that you don't even realize are skills and exercise. Like, I remember early in my career when I was training someone and I showed them a bicep curl. I did like one rep because it's a bicep girl. Like, you just bend the elbow.

And I watch him do it. It's funny when you watch somebody mess that up for the first time of the trainer. How did you do that? Because it's a prediction. It's a prediction. They're making a prediction, but they're always making predictions, right? I'm making a prediction right now that no one's going to walk through that door. If that changes and I get enough sensory data to change that, I will attend to it.

And that's what your attention does. Your attention goes to minimizing prediction error. Your brain, this model doesn't like surprise. So when I'm teaching someone an exercise, there's, if I understand these component parts, I understand the goal of learning is to minimize prediction error. So they're getting sensory data that feeds into their, you know, what it is they're doing in real time. And they have a prediction. A lot of times it's like, okay, I've seen people lunge before.

Okay, lunge. Okay, so I have a rough idea. This is a lot to do with, like, you know, the idiom like, oh, it's like riding a bike. Right? Like riding a bike is a shorthand for something that you never forget. But why do we, why do we, why is that? Why is that it? Why is it like riding a bike,

a very potent and visceral, universally understood thing that everyone once they do it, they know how to do it? Why is that we never forget how to ride a bike? Because we're never not exposed to bike riding. It may not be us on the pedals, but we see people riding bikes all the fucking time.

Interesting. And one of the reasons we don't forget is because we're always exposed to that sensory data. Now, the sensory data is not the physical sensory experience that are muscles and joint capsules and proprioceptors and mechanoreceptors, but that visual input still there. So like my prediction is getting fed with really good sensory data and I can close these two points down. No prediction error?

I never forget. But when you're teaching someone an exercise, there's a way that we can look at this and be like, well, what comprises sensory data when they're performing a movement? Right. They're like muscles and mechanoreceptors. The neuroscience can get a little bit abstract in the way that it's represented. but why do things like foam rollers consistently, quote, unquote, work? Because you're increasing the precision of their sensory data. What is a foam roller?

What does it do? It applies deep pressure to tissue, right? Why is that useful? It's like, well, we have these things called mechanoreceptors, right? Like, the fact that we have this argument, and I don't know where you guys stand on it, but when we look in like, look, foam rollers work. You know how I know? Because my client goes, I feel better with a foam roller.

And I go, okay, I need to figure out why that's true, not sit there and tell them they're dumb and I have all these degrees, right? But when you look at this model, it makes so much sense. It's like, okay, a foam roller. And let's just pick off the big ones. There guns, foam rollers, kinesiotape, cupping. All of these.

Right, massage. All of these things, they trigger. And like, to your point earlier about corrective exercise, all of everything we just listed has a neurological correlate. Something in the nervous system that flips a switch that tells our brain that this experience is happening and what it feels like, right? So foam roller, deep pressure, one of our mechanoreceptors. Therogne, vibration, one of our mechanoreceptors,

so there's Piscian corpuscles, Meisorchorpe, refus corpuscles, refinery endings, and Merkels test. It's like the technical, don't even have to worry about it. Just know that in the layers of your skin and some in your bone, vibration, skin stretch, deep pressure, and light touch. Those, why do people like wearing compression shorts, or compression sleeves or whatever or the spandex, whatever the fuck, that that is why.

Because it provides a light touch sensation that increases your precision weighting. So here, if I have sensory data, where my body is in space, which muscles can do that. And this is why when we see people using, you know, single leg exercises and things like this, yeah, that will increase the precision weighting.

Muscle spindles are really, actually the most potent, right? And then we have a prediction we're trying to make. if I have more precise sensory data and I have a really good understanding of my prediction that I'm going to make, all of a sudden we've learned really, really fast. Right.

And that's the goal. Right. So that's how we can kind of use this model to, I mean, in the case of the original question, to unlearn pain really fast. Do you think, because I've made the speculation a few times on our show, more than a few times where,

and I'll tell you a story that I've said a few times on the show. Again, that I was training, early trainer. We're doing a tricep press down with the cable. And, you know, I'm probably, I've only been a trainer for like four months at this point. And she's doing a press down. And she lets go of the cable, weight stack slams. She's like, ah, what happened?

I got hurt. I'm like, I'm freaking out because I'm a new trainer. Okay, where's the pain? And she's like, poignant. And I didn't realize, like, that's your tricep. Like you felt it burn a little bit. But she had never really felt that before and it freaked her up. And then I had this crazy realization that advanced lifters and athletes, they have a different

relationship with that kind of pain. You know, an advanced lifter is going to go train and definitely inflict more pain and suffering on themselves than a beginner, but they don't perceive it the same. In fact, oftentimes we love it and we go after it. do you think exercise changes just broad spectrum relationship to pain? Oh, absolutely. So here's, and this is, I'm currently writing a book about this very topic.

So thank you for like the off the board. You guys are just like, that's why you guys are you though, right? When we talk about changing perceptions, what are the, what rules the airwaves? It's really right now it's two things. It's meditation and it's psychedelics.

Like in my world, when I look at these problems, And I say, okay, who's writing literature about this? Who's writing studies? And there's good, there's good studies about, like, I don't know. Maybe no one wants to incriminate themselves on the air. I was going to get real high before this podcast, but I decided not to. Wow.

But like, look, we're comfortable. I feel like I can come in on Mars and we can probably do this. But like, what are they, what are they saying about, like, mushrooms and ketamine and all these? What does it do? It changes. It changes. Absolutely changes your perception. Right. Holy shit.

Yeah. Like, I don't know. Go to the, go to the sphere, go see the dead with John Mayer and do it on two hits of LSD. Like your perception, something's going to happen. Like something will change. Your perception will change. But that's, it's changing your mind, right? When you think about meditation, you look at, you know, even from like a long-term meditator,

if you're doing an fMRI, like what it does to the gray matter of the brain. It's changing your mind. Right. changes your world, right? So when we think about the, the, this, this equation again, where we have sensory data, right? And then we have these prior experiences and we have these normative values. When we look at practices like meditation and psychedelics, they're sort of playing in these normative values. They're playing in these prior experiences. Like when you, I don't know if anyone's ever sent it on shrooms, but like it, it, it kind of rinses your priors. It doesn't allow you to,

one of my favorite quotes of all time. And it's very like, it's ethereal, but it actually speaks to the deep science of this is you don't see the world as it is. You see it as you are. Right. And it speaks to this idea that your prior experience paints your reality.

When you take these drugs, essentially what they're doing is they're taking your prior experiences and going, you don't get to draw from these anymore. And they're like, holy shit. I'm just getting pure sensory data. Right? Creating new pathway.

Creating new pathways. When you exercise, it changes the sensation. Right? Right. And like the one thing that we have to start respecting, and look, we have to start respect. What a stupid thing to say. The one thing that I think is really cool about exercise is that muscle is a sensory organ. Yeah. Right. First, like if we look, we talked about mechanoreceptors. We talked about no susceptors. So no susceptctors, mechanoreceptors and proporeceptors. So proporeceptors are almost twice the

speed, which means the signal relayed from a muscle to the brain gets there almost twice as fast as those that come from the skin, which are almost twice as fast as those that come from no susceptories. So it's like here when we have this equation of our perception at large, and it doesn't just change our perception of pain. Like look at what exercise can do for depression. Oh, yeah. Because we're shifting, we're giving this more data. You see the latest study? One and a half times more effective than therapy or, yeah. Yeah. Oh, and I'm sure if you pair them together, it'd be even more effective. But why is it? It's because you have a practice that's changing your mind and you have a practice that's changing your mind.

your world, right? And that's, that's what, that's what movement does, right? It's, it's, if you don't, if something doesn't fit, if there is a prediction error, right? It means the sensory data you're getting does not match your, your prediction of the world. You can do one of two things. You can change your mind or you can change the world. And muscle, and it sounds like so weird in a stupid clip, but like muscle has the ability to change your world. It has the ability to change your, your perception of you in the world because it changes the sensory data. Because there's two primary modes of sensory data in the body. One is the eyes, obviously.

Like if anyone, you look at the neuroanatomy of the cerebrum, like the big part of the brain, we have an optic lobe that's literally a part of the brain dedicated to one sense. Right. Like I don't think a bat would have an optic lobe, right? There's no need for that. It doesn't have eyeballs that work like ours. Now, if you're a paragon falcon, sure, yeah, you're seeing a mites. for a mouse from like a mile up, what is our second most potent sensory data source in our

bodies? It's our muscles. I don't know it was second. Oh yeah. And like, so there's muscle spindles, gold G-10, organs, and joint capsules. These are what are classically known as our proprioceptors. It gets a little bit tricky because the word proprioception gets misappropriated a lot. We kind of use it haphazardly to talk about our kinesthetic sixth sense of awareness. Like where you know where you are in space. Right. But proporeoceptors are a specific group of three free nerve endings, which are your joint capsules, your muscle spindles and your gold tendon organs. And when you're training, you stimulate them, right? One of the keys to muscle spindles I find interesting is one, I guess there's two really important things that I find

interesting. One, they are of the proprioceptors the most abundant, right? So they are the most abundant sensory receptor, and they actually attach to what are called intrafusal muscle fibers. So a muscle fiber has the contractile element, which is what's called extrafusal, which attaches tendon and when it shortens and lengthens, we get sort of concentric, eccentric movement at a particular joint. But in between, along for the ride, like imagine the space in between my fingers,

those are interfusal. They're not contractile. They don't attach the tendon. They're just kind of like sensing what's, where are we going? Oh, where are we going? The muscle spindle wraps around the interfusal muscle fiber. So that's constantly relaying. And the trick of it is like, you ever do like shoulder press

and you kind of see your bicep kind of like flex a little bit as you're pressing? Because the bicep has this like, oh, hold us, the sensory. We're lengthening. Yeah, yeah. And that's all, so the stuff that's pushing, that's extrafusal. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, right. Like, it's not like flexing our bicep, where we can do it voluntarily.

all of our positional postural, you know, your erectors, your multifidus, all of the deep spine muscles. They're all autonomic off of this loop. Is this why sometimes

you can tap on a muscle like your quad and it'll flex a little bit? It's a reflex. Yeah. So that would be the Golgy tendon organ reflex, right? So that particular pathway is called the alpha gamma

gamma motor neuron reflex. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But here's this thing where it's like, okay, we can, our, we can change.

our perception by giving our body greater sensory information. Our eyes are, you know, one thing, right? Like, look, there's research coming out about Alzheimer's and hearing loss. Like, if you lose X percent of hearing, you're like 90-something percent more likely to get Alzheimer's. Right? But it's like, oh, yeah, sure, because you're, you're dampening the sensory input. Sensory input drives motor output, right? So when your spine reflexively control.

tracks to a position, it's starting with the sensory input first. So our whole perception, we have our eyes, which yes, they're going to give us a lot of sensory data, but our muscles are a wealth spring. And we look at them like, you know, they're an output organ. It's good to be strong. When you watch exercise prescription for the elderly, it's like, oh, we got to, we're missing the point. We don't need to do four by four back squats at the heaviest we can do for a 55-year-old woman. It's like, no, no, we need to treat that muscle like a sense organ. Because sensory input drives motor output, right? So when we, to answer your question in hopefully a little bit more of a pointed fashion, yes, absolutely.

Exercise should be and is kind of getting tossed in the mix of like things that improve, you know, depression or PTSD or just general health and wellness. But it's technically true. And the reason why is it provides you with way better sensory data. Well, we look at the brain and we say, oh, that's the seat of consciousness. this, this is where your thoughts come from. But we don't, people don't realize that the extension of the brain is the body. Oh, great. So the body is a part of the brain, in essence.

I mean, you see this with like phantom limb syndrome. You could sure people lose an arm and they feel it there and it feels painful because the brain hasn't processed that's gone yet. So it's an extension of the brain. So if the body is unhealthy, you can have physically an unhealthy brain, but the brain also loses that sensory. So you bring up, fuck, man, you guys are the best. So thank you. Because, so go back to the 19th century, René Descartes. Does everyone recognize the name? Yeah. What is, what does we remember? So Renee Descartes was like a philosopher, one of these really

influential figures. So he came up with the idea of dualism, right? He also, ironically enough, Descartes was also the one that sort of outlines the opposite of what I just talked about. Like I was like, hey, look, we don't see the world as it is. We generated in our. brain and our brain sort of pops up this conscious experience. Descartes said it was a complete opposite. So Descartes missed a lot because one of I think as big as misses was Cartesian dualism. The separation of mind and mind and body. Now here's what I'm proposing is the real dualism isn't between the mind and the body.

It's between the mind and the brain. That's the real dual. We can separate that. And what's the difference? And this is where exercise becomes so exciting to me is the difference between the mind in the body, the mind of the brain, is think of you guys, it's been a long time

since you've been poking around on the back end of mindpump.com or mindpumpmedia.com. I would imagine there was a time where you guys were probably, you know, WordPress or early days, right? When I met you guys, you were probably like,

someone had admin access. It was probably Doug. What up, Doug? Shout out, Doug. That's actually a very sore subject right now, bro. We got hacked as we lost it. Yes, bro. Our Facebook stuff has been down for two weeks.

I got a number four. Who's username is this? We'll talk after. I got a guy. Wife's high up. We'll talk. He saved our ass. Oh, wow.

This could be, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll, um, but. Yeah, we get your point. What was the website?

You know, what did we do? It's like, well, we used a back end editor, right? Drag and drop. And now it's way more robust, right? Like you go on square space with AI and all this. Like, but none of us would confidently say we know how to work websites.

Right? No. But we know how to drag and drop shit. Right? Like, yeah, okay. So, So there's a user interface. The brain is complex, right?

It's endlessly. It's the most complex thing in the no universe, without a doubt. Like we know we know enough about it to know we don't know anything about it, right? We know more about Alpha Centurri than we do about the inner workings of the brain. But the mind, like we know our conscious experience. We know our theater, right? We know what comes. We know this like global workspace that kind of pops up.

And the study of consciousness, if you ever, you know, need a rabbit hole to go down. It's really interesting. But when I think about movement, I think about movement like the interface between the mind of the brain, where I can just go like, hey, do this. And the brain conjures up the compute and it reformats the aspect ratios and it changes the resolution.

All these ones and zeros are high. No fucking eye. I barely know enough to make this analogy, right? I know less than nothing about the inner workings of a computer. Right. But like I know enough about the brain to be like, look, the neurological correlates to a lot of this are really complex. I just know when I put this input into the conscious theater, I get this output.

So it's like when we understand movement, movement is the user interface. And it's such a seamless user experience. I'll give you an example, like just to kind of understand how our body offers up the seamlessness of our reality. Like if I touch my finger to my nose, those two sensations happen simultaneously. They shouldn't. We know they shouldn't, right? We know the distance of travel, it takes a travel for me, but I'm making a prediction.

And my body just offers up. Like if I were an interesting point. Did you ever make anyone have a concussion? I'm looking, I love how I look at you. You're the concussion guy. That's the, that's the concussion guy. Are you telling me he's the brain damage? Okay.

How did you manage it? How did I manage it? I should ask someone who was around, who was conscious when it happened, but I mean, they just get back on the field back then. Oh, so it's football. So it was football. Okay. Yeah, yeah, great.

Yeah. I mean, they sit me out. I mean, that's really all. The entire protocol. But the mechanism was football. Yes. So you got hit. You got hit and lights out.

Got hit. Yeah. By multiple players at the same time. It was pretty bad. Fuck. Okay. So one of the things, if you ever Google search, symptoms of a concussion, right? So there's a mom out there listening or some plays football or whatever.

You're going to see like a laundry list of stuff you'd expect. Yeah. Headaches. It's called a photophobia, like a like an aversion to light or sensitivity to light. And at the bottom of the list on every list, there's something called impaired visual saccades. Mm. So a visual saccad is like if I were to take, I mean, let's take someone without, have you ever had a major? Okay.

So if we were to take a high speed camera and we were to record your eyes, what we would notice that three to five times a second, your eyeballs are darting around. That's a saccad. So when you have a concussion, those saccades are slow. But like, wait, you're telling me that in a normal brain, my eyes are darting around three to five seconds. Yep. My conscious experience should be like the Blair fucking witch. project. Right?

Think about it. If this is just a camera doing this and I'm seeing a conscious stream much in a way that if this was a direct representation of reality. Yeah, yeah. Then I would feel this the same. I would see you guys in this weird, shaky,

kind of cracked out. Like, again, this is, and not to bring up drugs, but like when you take shrooms, everything starts to get a little bit fuzzy. It's like,

oh, we're, we're removing that layer that allowed, right? Because our cameras are darting around all the time. Right. So it's the way we, like how we generate our perceptions

are so far. I've gone so far, I feel like I actually forget your original question. But it's, yeah, but the ride's still fun. Keep going, you know what I'm saying? No, but like I just, I don't think we, we really respect.

Like, we can talk about exercise in a vacuum, but if we don't understand how it fits within our actual consciousness. But I think when we look at it in this framework, things have a place. That's right. They have a foam rolling,

has a home now, right? Because foam rolling isn't wrong. It's like, well, hold on. What paper towel roll were we looking at right and wrong through? Oh, does it break up scar tissue? Like, what year is it? What are we doing? It's 2025, right?

So it's, I mean, for me, like, exercise as so far as it improves. And this is what, this is where the audience is, right? Like, do you like taking a thing? Because I feel like you're this kind of guy. Like, you'll take something and you'll see lots of anecdote, maybe some data and you're the guy to go instead of saying that's dumb you're like let me figure out why this is working like acupuncture like why this happens why does acupuncture working why do some people say it relieves pain why do we have some data to support it sounds like you did that

with foam rolling or you like that with different things do you look at something go okay obviously lots of people are doing it what's going on yeah look I wasn't like when we first met I think I was and that made me true of all of us like you know I think we've all kind of grown up a little bit I just, you just can't, one, just, okay, how do I answer this question? Yes, I really try and dig down to the neuroscience behind it, right? Like, because when we start looking at, you know, anything I listed off, right, it was very anti-percussion tool when I first started. Because the claim seems so ridiculous. I think the way they explain it is what gets in their way.

That's what I think. Like, you explain to me acupuncture and you say it's chi, and I'm like, whatever. But I had a surgeon that I was training who goes, well, you know, there is referred pain. Like, what? Yeah, sometimes this hurts and this is actually happening over there. He's like, maybe that's what acupuncture is kind of working with.

I'm like, okay, wish somebody would have said that to me before. Yeah, trying to see things mechanistically. Yeah. I think is, and really focusing on the nervous system mechanism behind it. Like, the cupping one jumps off the page because it's like, okay. Yeah. And I remember we were talking about before.

We were talking about dualism, mind and brand, the user interface, it doesn't matter. But like, cupping is, it's so, I have a friend, his name's Kyle Rogers. He's a pitching coordinator for the New York Mets, and he has this quote that I love, It makes sense if you don't think about it. And it's fucking all time.

And cupping is like that because it's like, I don't know, there's a bunch of bruises there. You get a bunch of hickies. Right. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it must be all the toxins. It's like, man, like, I know people who do some drugs. And even they're like, I live in the tenderloin now.

It's like, even those people aren't pulling toxins out. But what is, but like, look, it works. Yeah. Right. So after whatever Olympics it was where Phelps was swimming like a fucking pepperoni pizza, it's like, okay, well, how does it work? What is the neurological correlate to you get working? Well, when we look at the subcutaneous mechanoreceptors

and we see that, hey, skin stretch is a really potent signal sensory data of the brain. I bet that has something to do with it. That's right. I think we get stuck in a very analog, mechanical representation of the body that negates the potency of the nervous system. You know what you sound like?

You sound like someone that's worked with a lot of people. I think when you, no, you know why that's, you know, if that's the truth, because whenever I talk to scientists or data, you know, people who've never worked with people, they can get very narrow. Then when I talk to really smart people who've also worked with a lot of people, you hear, it sounds like what you're saying,

which is like, let's figure out what's happening here. Let's explore all the different options because I've worked with enough people to know, things are interesting. They're much more interesting than we think. My job's not to be right. My job is to help people, right? Like I think we use,

and much this has been weaponized, a lot of things social media as cliche as is to talk about is one of the reasons why and everyone I think everyone starts this way it's like they try and figure out they try and use research to figure out why people are wrong rather than using principles to figure out why they're right right

I think that's that was a fundamental shift for me right is like do I want to go down and without I don't want to cast shade or dispersion God knows I've done enough of that on the show but it's like I don't I don't I don't want, I don't care, dude. Like, I'm tired. Right. At the core of it, I'm just, I'm too tired to fight anymore. But it's like, what is right in our world, right? Right. Right. Right. So I think going down the road of just regurgitating research, it's like, okay, cool, I have a job to do, right? I have someone who's paying me to get them better, not paying for them to get them smarter, right? Or to be right? Like, my day to day, like my practice, when I'm working with like, basically just one person,

at a time now. That's what that's my focus. And that's just everyone's focus at the end of the day. And you see like the spiteful, resentful smart trainer. It's like, dude, you got to, you got to reorient what success is. Success is helping people. Success is being of service. Like it's not like, and I felt this way out of school, like, you know, paid a bunch of money, learned some stuff, wrote a test, passed it, wrote another one, passed it. And I was like, right. So where's all the money? Where's, is this where I get the money now and everyone's, It's like, fuck you, nerd. Like, you're not worth shit.

And then you kind of have to go through and, you know, you try and be right for long enough. And then you realize, like, well, right is the is results at the end of the day. Right. So the science can help inform it. But like, there's nothing worse than someone who goes, I'm data driven. It's like, oh, God. Be data informed at best. But like, you're here to, you're here to be of service.

And whenever you're right, you're just fucking servicing yourself. It's like, it's really just a, it's a bad MO. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think, I love that approach. Not because all things are valid. So I'm not one of those people either. It's like, if it works, it's good. It's like, okay, yeah, okay.

You do, you know, energy healing. I don't know if I necessarily, but, but I do think looking at things and saying, okay, there's a lot of anecdote here. It's been around for 100, 200,000,000 years, sometimes, you know, 1,000 years. What's happening? And is this something I can use? Is this something I can work with to try? One of my favorite examples of this for me was, you know, when I started dating my wife, she would get these migraines.

And she had this like this little bottle of green oil that she got from, she used to travel Cirque to Solet. I love this for you. I love that he's met with the final boss. Like so. And it's like this, it's like this, you know, it's like Ben Gabe in a bottle, right? And she would put it on her temples and be like, oh, it makes the pain go away. And I'm like, you know what? And I'm like, that oil isn't penetrating and reduced.

You would say that? I wanted to. Okay. You are smart. You are smart. Wait a minute. I know what's happening here. You put it on your skin.

It creates this cooling sensation. Your body's perceiving the pain differently. And so you don't feel it. And so that was a group. For me, that was like one of those experiences where I'm like, this is why? Because instead of being like, no, like, why is this work? Why is this working? Why do people do this?

And then that helps me be a better coach. Helps me be a better trainer. And not sleep on the couch. And not sleep on the couch. But I think training and working with people, I'm so glad you still do it because I think it keeps you good. Do you remember the last thing that you really shifted your opinion on or last like paradigm shattering thing? Yeah, getting into cognitive theory. Like getting into like, I need a framework.

Because you made, you brought up something really interesting. Like, and it's a good guardrail to put up for people. It's like, I'm not open to everything. Yeah. Because, and here's the problem with that. Like I, you know, we work in the education space. And one of the things that I have to talk a lot of people down from is this idea of being a forever student. If my fucking house is on fire, I don't want a forever student firefighter.

You know, every day is an opportunity, white belt mentality. Like, you get up that fucking ladder. You go get my shit, okay? Like, get me the fuck out of here. But it's like, but because one of the things you have to realize is that the value in this field is solving more complex problems faster. And I think when you're able to put guardrails on things that are efficacious versus not, you're able to really concentrate and minimize the opportunity cost in your approach.

And this is where you end up, like for me, now I'm at a point where I get really complex cases and I take them on, I get one client a year, two clients a year. I will not work with more than one person that wants. And because the value I can provide for one person is to solve a really, really complex problem really quickly, right? And it's, that starts with being able to separate the wheat from the chaff with like, hey, look, yeah, but we could do 90 minutes in a hyperbaric, but in an hour and a half, I think I could probably move the needle a little bit more, right? 90 minutes, four times a week. Okay. And you have a white. And it's like, okay, no, no, no, we need.

So there is a, there is an experience of professionalism and knowledge base in the empirical that allows you to be very effective because I watch people who are too conscientious. It's like, at the end of the day, I look up at the, you know, at the wall with all the diplomas, I go, I hate that a bitch. That's my name. That's my name on all those pieces of paper. That's why you're here to see me. And I, and I, it is a fine line to walk between, hey, the, the green oil thing does this or the crystals and blah, blah, blah, versus like, do you want to get better soon or like, whenever you want, like, you know, because I'm here to do a job. Do you, do you have other people you work with? Because you're working with these really complex cases. So do you work also with

functional medicine practitioners or people that do gut testing for some of these cases. Because I can imagine sometimes some of these problems are multifaceted. Yeah. I am lucky that the clients that I'm working with now are taking their, they take their health very seriously. So the networks that I fall into, I am the movement guy. I'm the rehab guy. Right.

They already have the other. Yeah. They got all their bases covered. Now, obviously, different levels, different devils. But like, yeah, if they don't have it, they're all. are adjacent fields where I'm just going to dish the rock where it's like let's get let's get blood work that looks weird I do nervous system stuff I do movement stuff I do exercise stuff I need you go here hey this looks off okay I need you go to a rheumatologist this looks off I need you to go

an endocrinologist this looks functional you know it's it's it's it's an interesting and I do have some people kind of in my network that I trust in that space but that's like that's a broad yeah yeah and it's it's you know and like I'm lucky in a sense that I've been able to do as a chiropractor, right? Like people, every time someone introduced me like, oh, this is so-and-so, he's working with us, he's doing X, Y, and Z. They're like, well, like, what is he?

The chiropractor immediately. And they're like, but like, they don't even get the R out before they're like already explaining the yeah, yeah, yeah, but he came for a little, blah. Like, so functional, you know, I think there's such a utility. And I think the concentration of people who really get the integrated system of systems of the body are found in functional, but man. There's a lot of other stuff. It's wild out there.

I know. It's fucking wild. I love how you brought up chiropractor because that space, too, makes me... I've been to chiropractors who do, like, lift your arm up and then do you like gluten? Press it down. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's called it.

I'm not even going to... I'm not even going to... I've come to spread the good word. You're such a deep thinker. Do you ever... Do you think that it could be a problem for you? Do you just think a lot and sometimes think yourself into spins just for yourself? No.

Because the guardrail for all deep thought, again, it comes down to this idea of what is the value of anything. It's to allow you to move quicker. Okay. Right? So, like, I, my, it made me to a fault because I move really fast, like, physically, quite literally. But to me, it's, you know, about any subject, the, the practice of introspection or deep thought is so that you can move faster, not move slower. Right? So if I run into, because like you, if you don't know enough about a subject, for me, I'm going to have a hard time making a decision.

The wrong decision is worse than finding the right decision in too long a time. Right. Right. So for me, speed is everything. Right. There's something called the Andromeda effect where speed actually changes your, it's a bit of like this. It's this cosmic thing. But my thing is, I know that it.

if I'm looking too much into something, if it starts to slow me down. And whatever that looks like in whatever arena, whether it's my personal life, relationships or business, just make a decision, right? Because it's the old, like, in what, in 20 years we'll be wrong,

and in 20 years after that, we'll be dead, right? So for me, time is the learning opportunity. So I'm trying to make sure that, okay, is the deep thought slowing me down? If yes, then keep moving, right? Do you still use adjustments on people or is that right? Okay, so I don't want to like laugh that off.

Feet and ankles very often. I was a feet ankles, feet ankles and ribs. Because for me, the things that are really going to, because the automaticity of ventilation and locomotion, that's going to be where the foot hits. Just articulating those little joints are so hard unless you have somebody.

And, oh yeah, for sure, especially at the level of like the T spine and ribs. because, again, it just comes down to those autonomic loops of like, I can't, everyone quick, contract their multifidus. Like, it ain't happening, dog, right? But if I can change relative orientation, I'm changing that, the,

the, sort of the tone and perception of those muscles in space sure, but I'm not, if I can do it with movement, I'm doing it with movement. Because the thing that really scales, and you learn this when you look into, like, we talked earlier about the muscle spindle, the muscle spindle, not to get too neurosciency,

but it's composed of what's called a nuclear chain and a nuclear bag fiber. And these do two things. They, one, signals to the brain or the spinal core, the nervous system, the onset of the change in length. And the second signals the magnitude, right? And that, that's where load comes in, right? So we can actually get, like, I remember once there was a powerlifting name Andre Malanachev, and I was on a meet once, and he was deadlifting like eight something. 880, 400 kilos, 8801 pounds.

But it was actually like 883 and a half pounds because they had loaded like a small change plate on the other side. And how do you know? It's like it's like putting a, it's like putting relative to what's on the bar, it's like putting a potato chip. And he like second the weight went down, he goes to the other side, looks. It's like, you know, all in Russian yelling at everyone. It's like there's more weight on the side. Like it makes you. sensitive to your environment.

Like you can feel the differences in weight, right? So for me, it's just like it's when you, when you train for a long enough time, you train that sensitivity. That's a, that comes from getting stronger, right? And that's where a lot of people lose the plot on all this like, oh yeah, instability, you change in muscle length,

Bosu balls are like, ah, ah, ah, the neural, the nuclear chain, the nuclear bagfire is the magnitude of the change in length. If I put someone on a bowshoe ball, it's like, well, hold on, what am I perturbing here? There's no progression. Right. But if I put that same split squat now as a Bulgarian split squat with a dumbbell in the opposite hand, now we can continually drive the adaptation of the sensitivity of that muscle spindle because it changes to, it responds to magnitude.

Right. And weight can offer you an increased stimulus, which then you can continue to adapt to. So that's a key feature in this program. and where I think resistance training really should take its place as something that can change people's perception, like meditation, like, you know, like psychedelics. Resistance training when it comes to sensory data. Because it's like, well, what about Pilates? It's like, what about Pilates, right? And like no, no dispersion against people who do Pilates.

But one of the things that I consistently do when people reach out, like, oh, my, you know, my girlfriend or my boyfriend or my mom or whatever does Pilates and they still have this. It's like, okay. But they love it. They lost a lot of weight. Great. Now the thing that they use is their resistance is lighter. So they're progressively underloading because they've lost 30 pounds doing Pilates. They're on the box with the springs and the reformer. But there's less of them to move. So they're actually moving further away. Like you have to start using resistance as it not just a means of progressive overload, but it means a progressive over stimulus. Yeah. Adaptation. Yeah. Regressing the adaptation process. Exactly. And you can take it all the way down to like what is the what is the mechanistic unit. of change that's driving this, right?

Until we go all the way down the level of nervous system, we go, oh, there it is. That little fucker responds to the magnitude of the change of length. This is why the best rehab, the form of exercise that tends to be used

is some form of resistance training, whether it's with bands or body weight or a person or weights. It's because it allows you to progressively adapt. Well, because there's an interesting thing because body weight is a tricky one because it's a non-standard unit of measure. Right.

And you've got to think about people's relationship with gravity. It's something that we never really take into consideration because we've always been stronger than the forces of gravity acting on us. Like, I don't know. At my best, I could probably squat a little over three times my body weight. Imagine dealing with someone who can't do a body weight squat. Dude, I'm

Neil fucking Armstrong. This world is the moon to me compared to their experience of gravity. Right. Like there's the autonomic nervous system in the way that we call on these muscles without our say-so. Someone has tight calves, tight glutes, tight hamstring. It's like, that's the autonomic nervous system,

reacting to their meat suit in space, not being, not having the strength to be held up. So there's a lot of, I don't know, I don't say, yeah, there's a lot of nuance in understanding, like, how motor learning takes place based off of someone's relationship with gravity. But machines, right, machines can be a good way because it's like, we need to find the integer scale less than their own body weight. If I put a leg press with 30 pounds versus like, oh, no, everyone has to learn how to squat. It's like, taking someone who's 40 pounds overweight and teaching them to learn how to squat is like giving them a Rubik's cube and then taking a snub.

revolver and putting it in their mouth. They go ahead. Go ahead. Learn how to fucking do the little colory square thing while you're in a state of high arousal. So it's, you know, there's just the, again, it comes down to the nervous system. Like understanding we're starting to shift our focus away from muscles under a microscope, right?

The neuromuscular physiology, when I hear someone talk about actin, myocin, sliding filaments, like what are you, what are you doing? man like you're what like you have to see the whole elephant right it's sort of that blind man and the elephant parable and like the nervous system helps compartmentalize and really prioritize how we approach motor learning with every client like what is this person's autonomic nervous system doing because if we can't understand that we're we're we're shooting in the dark i have a i have a pro athlete question for you um have you seen um a change in like the types of injuries and

things we're seeing, sports is always kind of evolving and I love watching the game, like, and just how different it is today than 20 years ago. What are you seeing from somebody who's rehabbing and helping people?

Are you seeing different types of injuries, like, or is it the same stuff over and over? Like, is it a basketball question? I mean, can be basketball, could be hockey, could be. I think injuries are,

look, it's, I mean, even like, for example, like, there was a time when we wore nothing but high top shoes in basketball. And now we have,

have changed because we saw what was going on with ankle injuries and that would be ridiculous to put your foot or ankle in a cast while you're playing and so yeah but I mean how many what was how many Achilles stairs we have last year well so this is why I'm asking that's exactly my point. Injuries I think

injuries usually set people down the road of more specific interventions which is wrong in my opinion like when because now everyone everyone every off season is like foot and ankle it's like variability because an injury is an injury is an equation right it's applied force greater than tissue tolerance so when when we start to notice you know whether it's aces or hamstrings or you know anterior talofibular ligaments or achilles people go oh this is the site of pain this is this is the injury this is the tissue that's damaged and so then all of their focus like baseball has this hilarious thing called arm care if like i have a lot of friends who work in the MLB of athletes that work in MLB and they're

if you talk to any strength and conditioning program and any major league baseball team, they talk about arm care, which is like, they're throwing a hundred miles an hour. They're on a fucking shot clock now. And you're doing more arm stuff? They're getting enough.

So there's like, it's hard to pull yourself out of it and go, because one of the things I'm seeing with the emergence of a lot of sport science is that they're getting too hyper-specific and they're worried about the tissue-tolerable. Or if we could strength arm care, if we could strengthen the ulnar collateral ligament, if we could strengthen the elbow flexors, it's like, why don't we focus on decreasing the amount of force we're applying there rather than the tissue tolerance? right. When I was powerlifting, my knees hurt because powerlifting.

And so I remember going into a PT clinic in the bay and someone puts a knee or a band behind my knee and says, yeah, I just want you to like kind of lock out your knee. And at this point, I was on, I was sort of low 700s, mid-700s. And I was like, hold on a second. What's this? Like, oh, like terminal knee extensions. And I think I was still in school. Maybe it was just out. And I'm like, just a question, like, the green band? You heard me say squat like 730 or whatever, right? Like, how is this doing anything? But the idea is like, oh, we're looking at the injury through the lens of it wasn't enough tissue tolerance. The tissue was intolerant to the load.

Why don't we ask the question of why are we applying so much force to begin with? I think the hyper specificity, when we start seeing like a trend line in injuries, Achilles, So what does off-season program look like? Foot and ankle stuff. Everyone's walking on ropes and doing foot drills and, you know, gate cycle this. And it's like literally go for a hike. Go forget some variability and expression,

but not just through your foot and ankle, but in the way your brain and your body have to react to these positions, it's like the answer, in my opinion, is it's not, specific injuries don't require more specific interventions or preparation or prophylaxis. It requires more very, ability, right?

So we start to be able to disperse these loads across different positions, across different tissues, but everyone just like, I don't know, like if you're an owner of a team and your PT, if you walk in and your PT's working with Halliburton or whatever, and not to throw, you know, obviously injuries happen and we can't really accurately predict and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like if I'm the, if I'm the strength coach and I'm doing a bunch of like variable movement stuff, someone goes, what the fuck are you doing? We have ankle injuries.

Why aren't we doing ankle stuff? It's like, okay, so we're going to go do seated calf raises now. It's like, ah, God, damn it. So there's a pressure. And there's a pressure from the athlete, like, hey, man, I'm real worried about, like, I'm real worried about ankles, man. Like, what are we doing for ankles? It's like, I don't know, man, multi-directional stuff.

We're going to throw some balls. We're going to jump. We're going to land. We're going to have variability. But everyone just, they get so tunnel visioned and so, like, gunshot. Because if something goes wrong and we didn't do anything into the ankles, or if we didn't do our arm care, So a lot of it is, you know, obviously it's it's fear, but I think at the level of application, it's, it's a tendency to hyper specificity around these regions that are so commonly injured.

And that's why injury rates, and again, it's the games are faster. The seasons are shorter. There's more international travel. Early specificity, right? Which would speak to this idea of specificity being the opposite of variability, right? So there's a lot of reasons that compound. But what I see in the field. and, you know, strength coaches at that level, for the most part.

I mean, you guys have had a handful of them on Schles, Schles's the guy. But look at Schles's training, right? What does Schles do with these guys? It's kind of, you know, he does some stuff. We're like, oh, that's unconventional. It's like, yeah, because the conventional stuff leads to all this other shit. Yeah. Right.

So that's where I think there's a siren song to solve a problem and it hyper fixates the focus onto the tissue tolerance. And it really negates the bigger picture of why and how, we apply for us. So do you think it was a dumb idea that we went to, we traded ankle injuries for Achilles? I mean, do you think that's what we did by going high top over to low top shoes? I mean, it's tough to say if that was the catalyst. It's hard to, it's hard for me to imagine that the shoe, and I may get some backlash, has as much to do with it as the rest of the training, right? Like, it really, and it may sound ignorant, but they are so strong that,

those shoes, those high tops, like I wear. They're not, they're not stopping or slowing anyone down. I really think it's the big things. Like if you were to control the future where we kept high tops going and we had less of a hyper fixation and over specialization on these particular regions, I think the high tops really wouldn't be causing these issues, right? I really think it's the sport specificity is such a, a it's such an egregious offender, right?

Because too often people who train people in sports try and make the gym look like the field. Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you see the title is hooked up to the cable machine and you're like, well, there goes your back swing. Like you're going to completely fuck up the mechanics or at the very least you're just going to overexpose the muscles you need. A lot of training is about variability. It's like, hey, let's find new positions, right?

Let's learn. I think that's a big thing. Like when you reorient your focus as a coach from training to teaching, you now have entered in one of the greatest constraints that you can put to load. And that's thinking. Thinking is a great, because they don't think when they're on the court. That's the whole point.

That's why they're good. So I'm going to take them into the gym and I'm going to put them in positions where they need to think. And that will constrain load, let them recover and learn how to load nutrition. As I say, do you end up integrating a lot of these variables or are you solely mainly focus on the recovery portion or do you get to go through all of it? It depends on what stage if I'm doing. a post-op or have someone who, you know, knock on what isn't injured.

Yeah. I like to use the words, and I don't necessarily love the word novelty. I love specific variability. Let's look at the challenges of your sport. Let's look at how you, how you move. Let's figure out what you're not getting. And let's give you some of that. Yeah.

So, because your body is like, you're at least your nervous system. It's like lightning, right? It's not, your body doesn't take straight lines. It takes the path at least resistance. Yeah. So if I can expose you to certain positions and shapes, demands in the weight room that you don't get exposed to, I'll watch your nervous system use these shapes on the field

that you otherwise didn't have access to. Right? So it's really about giving them ultimate variability. So assess the game, what are the demands, what are the limitations, do they have any issues like from a prior surgery or injury? What are positions they don't get into on the field? And how can we give them exposure to those positions

so we can learn how to load other tissues? So in a game, they're not, going to think their brain is going to be like hey I can do this I can plant my foot way out in front of me I don't have to have my knee go over my toe like I always do in every exercise you watch like wide receivers are really egregious offenders of this they get taught how to run routes and their knees are always over their toes right real quick feet drills and all this stuff and it looks good for the gram but when you watch someone go to like stop and they go to stop using a forward shin angle it's like I mean again I don't like the idea of oh we need

know how injuries happen, blah, blah, blah, blah, go watch, just YouTube search wide receiver ACL injury. And it frees frame the very second that the ACL popped and the person springs up into the air. The knee is over the toe. Because what does the ACL do? It stops the shin from going forward. What if our foot was in front of our knee and our knee was behind our toe, which is like one of the things about, you know, not, again, no dispersion, but the knee over toe thing is, you know, it's a useful, it's a form of, polyquin derived thing and buddy did really well with it. But in specific instances, I'm not going to do a ton of knees over toes with wide receivers

who spent the last 10 years doing knees over toes. I'm going to get their knee behind the toe because if you want to talk about stopping mechanics, this is a specific variant that you're not exposed to. When you go to stop on the field and your knee is forward, it's like, yeah, that's a lot of anterior tibial translation. But if you, if your knee is behind your foot, like in like a front foot elevated split squat, which no one ever does. It's like, oh, well, now I have some exposure here.

Now when I'm playing and someone goes to hit me, I can plant the brakes. Like Cadarius Tony a couple years ago when the Chiefs beat the Eagles in the Super Bowl, when he had that 61-yard kickoff return, he had one of the perfect expressions of this mechanic of like someone went to hit him, and he just fucking threw his foot out in front of him

and then pumped the brakes. And literally, I don't know who it was, but someone on the Eagles was predicting that he was going to take up this space because everyone in the league stops the same way. And he jumped at him to tackle and he literally went right by him and then he keeps on the run up the field. So things like that where it's like, okay,

what positions are you always in? What can the body do? If I gave you this option, would your brain take it on the field? So we train it. And you take guys like that and you get them to do a front foot elevated split squat with their knee way behind their toe. They can't do it.

So they're not going to figure it out on the field. So do you, do you, okay, you see a play or move like, that does the door can you automatically go you want to see who the the the trainer is that's training him and see huh no yeah i don't know i don't i don't good for good for anyone yeah because like the thing about athletes like i always think bow jackson is all time yeah what makes an athlete an athlete can learn motor skills really quickly period that's what like that's what like for my definition of an athlete so like when we go like anesthetic brilliance or genius yeah exactly it's savants

they're six cents salons is what they are like kim pique rain man could sit down and read one page of the book with his left eye while his right eye read the other one. He could read a whole two pages in less than three seconds and remember it to 98%. Is that real? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Kim Peek, the guy that made Rain Man off of?

Oh, yeah. I didn't even know that was based off of a real dude. Oh, yeah. He's amazing. You know what? Yeah. Kim Peek is so there's savant syndrome affects less than 100 people in the world. This is part of my book.

This is why I know a lot about savant syndrome. But Kim Peek is a negative savant. A mega savant. So he's a cognitive savant. When you watch Bo Jackson, you know, step up. hit it yard and then fucking run a 424. You're watching the physical representation of that brilliance, right? Like this is a cognitive.

Such a cool way to put it. Yeah. There's six cents savants, right? Like, I worked with a, like I worked with a tennis player that could turn over 230 kilometer an hour serve. Like,

one day he's, we're in Bahamas. Imagine getting hit by that. Well, so here's the thing about his house in the Bahamas and his hitting partner didn't show up. And he's like, hey, you're on the baseline.

Oh, no way. Like, dog, you don't pay me that much. You pay me good. You take care of me. But like, And obviously he can put it anywhere. So he blows it right by me. And I'm just like, and the thing of it is so interesting.

And we talk about sensitivity and we talk about muscles, the sensor organ. When he was younger, we were at Wimbledon and we're in the locker room. And Andy Murray comes up and he grabs my particular client his racket out of his bag. And him and him and Andy are friends. And Andy looks at it and admires him. I don't get it. Like, why is he admiring your racket? And he's like, oh, they only make it for me.

He was a top 10 player at the time. and I was like, okay, but wait, Andy's like one of the top four, right? You know, Djokovic, Andy Murray, Nadal, and Federer. So they won't make it for him? And he goes, no, I'm like, okay, well, what's the deal? He goes, when I was 17, I was sponsored by this company and they sent me my rackets after I got sponsored and they sent me the wrong rackets. And like, I look over at his agent, the manager and he goes, like, yeah, I was fucked up.

I was like, what happened? He's like, I don't know. He like took a hit with his new batch of the racket he used. and he just smashed it and walked off. He was telling him to send him my fucking rackets. And, you know, the agent goes and picks up the racket and goes, I don't know, looks just like the fucking, I don't know what you're talking about. Calls the company and goes, hey, he's tripping. Well, he's always tripping.

Like, no, like, he's not playing until he gets his rackets. And the guy goes, fuck. And then the agent's like, wait a minute, what, you know about this? Look, we couldn't. It was something about like a material or they changed. The difference. So the guy flew in from Japan brought, it was kind of weird. They brought four unmarked.

rackets. And they said, if you can tell us which one is yours, we'll make it for you forever. You want to know the difference in weight? Five grams. So, but here's, here's to my point of the sensitivity of an arm and a shoulder that can feel the difference between five grams is the same arm that from a motor output standpoint is painting 230 kilometers to the T. Back to your whole point about the muscle. Sensory input drives motor output. That's so cool. But there's there's savant. There's a sensitivity to it. And I think there's actually, there's a deeper, this idea, and this is all Cerebellar function stuff,

and it'll be for another time. But like, there's a deeper idea to this, to high cognitive output and hypersensitivity or hyposensitivity. Like, I think of the movie, the accountant. You ever seen that movie? Yeah, yeah. Oh, you haven't seen it? Oh, great movie, right?

But remember, so, you know, Ben Affleck plays a part two just came out that long ago. Yeah, but he plays, um, he'd be like a high functioning on the spectrum, Asperger's type. He's an accountant, right? Which is, like, he kind of fits the temperament of the, accountants I know. And when he goes home at the end of the night, he turns on like a strobe light and fucking Ramstein

music and he takes a fucking rolling pin to his shins. You remember that? Yeah. I love that. He grinds. And if anyone knows anyone or has anyone or has anyone in their family who's on the spectrum, hypersensitivity, like that type of stimulus is palliative. Right. Like, I have friends

who take, I have friends who take Adderall to calm them down. What is your brain? This explains Justin's death metal at 6 o'clock in the morning. But you get a, there's a cognitive uptick. You're on the spectrum, that's why. So there's a physical correlation to that.

When you look at athletes, like when you look at like the steps, when you look at the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the people who aren't just good at their sport. Yeah. Right. People that are athletes. People like to be good at anything. You go, oh, you're, they're the physical equivalent of that.

They can learn motorists. I love stories like that. Have you seen that other times? I mean, what a cool story to see that, like, unfold right there. It was wild. Yeah. Like I was sitting in Wimbledon, like, in the locker room. Murray, like, Djokovic walks in, you walk out a serrina, but it, like, that was like a aha moment of like, you know, because physically like dude's not super jacked, right? Yeah. But it's the sensitivity. It's the integration. Well, and you have, you have such a level of

appreciation for that than the average. They have a person would be like, oh, that's cool. He could pick the racket. Right. It's like, you have it on a deeper level, the understanding of like his ability to do that is that. I've always, I've always loved, like, yeah, I know they've, I know they've measured like Barry Bond's ability to like look at a ball as soon how like how quick he can see like the threads in in the ball coming out of a it's so wild when manning broke his cervical spine there's a couple examples that'll just blow you away just how superhuman athletes are there's we talked about saccades earlier being like a diagnostic for concussions how they slow down so they'll use these glasses they put on they'll like those apple pro glasses and then on the screen playing in

front of the eyes is a dot that that goes across the screen and the the dot is programmed to move in a particular pattern and there's high resolution cameras that are following the latency of the eye and following the dot there's two athletes one i won't name but one one is manning and you know these cameras have been used on all types of people with concussions and you start to see as the neurological symptoms of the brain damage improve that the latency in the eye tracking the dot starts to go away, as you'd imagine. Two of the best athletes of the sport, Manning being one and this ice hockey player being another,

the researchers, it was almost as if the eye was telling the dot where to go. There was zero latency. They'd never seen that in anyone without it. So they're testing them trying to get them back to baseline. And they're like, all of a sudden have a day where they don't just go back to baseline, which is some sort of latency in the ability to train. track zero. And this is high-speed cameras. It's like, we never seen anything like it. It's like, it's like the, it's like the retina is attached, the pupil is attached to the dot. There's a 0.0.0.0 millisecond latency. But these are why they're the best in the world. Oh, yeah. I mean, that totally explains why that guy was just so brilliant at the game, you know what I'm saying? And one of the things he was so great, it was changing the play to seeing something coming before and then I'm over to the right side and I'm throwing the ball over there. Like that's so. Yeah. You see that in a clinical.

setting where he's quite literally seeing a different game and someone. You know, this is how I always try and sell this guy on becoming a sports nut. Is this like, there's so many cool. I like the science, but that's right. That's what I try. There's so much deep, great science with these athletes, because it's the, it's the greatest expression of the greatest humans

that have this capability. It's brilliance in a physical sense. Yeah. Just like you look at Elon Musk. That's why I love that analogy. Exactly right. It's, we have these savants that are running around on fields and stuff like that. And it's just, I mean, look what Sequin Barclay did last year with that. I mean, that's the most one of the most epic.

So we jump backwards over you real quick. Real time. Like someone's about to destroy you and you have the level of awareness to shoot up. Jump right. Yeah, 180 in the air. It's split over. This is wild. Jordan, it's always awesome.

Heavy on. I really appreciate it. I have to take off, unfortunately. I mean, we can go on forever and I feel like I just put the quarter in. Next year. Next year. No, I appreciate you guys. Yeah.

Always a pleasure, man. Nice. Appreciate you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape. your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at Mind Pumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic,

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