Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2731: The Ultimate Muscle Building Diet (Without Getting Fat)

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Starting point is 00:00:24 Today's intro was 59 minutes long. That's where we talk about fitness and muscle gain and fat loss. current events, personal stuff. It's always a great time. By the way, if you want to be on an episode like this one, send us your question, send it to mp.livecaller.com. This episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Manukkah Honey,

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Starting point is 00:03:13 That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Let's talk about diet, the ultimate muscle building diet. Notice they said muscle and not fat. A lot of times people mess up. They try to build muscle and they either gain body fat or nothing at all.

Starting point is 00:03:27 So we're going to break it. down for you. We're going to keep it simple. This is how you gain when you're training hard and you want to eat in a way to get results. I love this conversation because I think it's more difficult than most people think. There's this tendency when you're trying to build muscle or gain weight that you're never eating enough. Yeah. And so, and you, you'd rather overindulged than under because you are constantly paying attention to the scale and you, and it's like it's not moving. I mean, I know you and I relate a lot to this. Like, I used to weigh myself three times a day right after I ate, you know, and I was like, I had a target number. I was looking at the scale. Like, oh, God, just another sandwich or

Starting point is 00:04:06 another shake I got to do. And what that ends up leading to after, you know, three, six months of bulking is you might have gained some weight, especially if you were disciplined and aggressive with it, but a lot of times, what's discouraging is you go take the body fat test, you're like, cool, I went up 10 pounds. Like, eight of it was fat, it was muscle. It was like, and then you're like, and then you're justified and you go, well, it did gain two pounds of muscle. Let me carve off that eight pounds of fat. It's gone. So you're going to cut.

Starting point is 00:04:32 You cut out, you cut out the eight pounds of fat and the muscle went right with it. So I, and now notice again, I said not fat, right? That's what we're talking about here. And it is, it's harder, but it's not complicated. So what we're going to talk about is actually not very complicated, but it's got to start with good workout programming. So I know we're not going to talk about or the title or the topic isn't about workouts. But I want to be clear, good exercise programming is crucial for the.

Starting point is 00:04:56 this because you can eat the ultimate muscle building diet, but if you're doing circuit training Zumba or you're over-training or whatever, it's not going to build. If you're not sending the right signal with the appropriate amount of volume and intensity, right, so you're not overdoing it. You're not underdoing it. It's just like just right. If you're not doing that, then the diet's not going to make that huge of a difference. But if you are doing that, then what we're about to say makes a huge difference.

Starting point is 00:05:20 And then back to what you said, Adam, the first time I really experienced the pain of what you're talking about was years ago. This is when I was a general manager at Santa Teresa. This is back Club 497. So years ago, it was a long time ago. And I had a contest with DJ, you know DJ and my buddy Ryan on who could gain the most muscle. I think we gave ourselves two months or something like that. Now, of course, all or nothing, you know, being my middle name, I'm like, I went hard. And I mean by hard, I ate everything. I was eating a bucket of chicken for lunch. Like I was just going nuts with food. And I got my body weight. up to 240 pounds, which is a lot for me.

Starting point is 00:05:59 Like right now I weigh 2.15, 2.16. So I got really, really big, and I was like, this is great. I packed on so much muscle until I got a body fat test done. And then I realized that I gained a very small amount of muscle. And most of it was body fat. And a lot of it had to do with my programming. But most of it had to do with just a crappy diet. It was junk calories.

Starting point is 00:06:21 That's right. So number one, you do have to eat. in a surplus, meaning you have to eat more calories and you're burning because you need extra, you need those extra calories for building muscle, but you don't need as much extra as you think. Gaining a pound of muscle a week, which would be profound, right? If you gained a pound of muscle a week, you are gaining at a very, I mean, lean body mass, you are gaining at a ridiculous rate.

Starting point is 00:06:45 So most people don't even expect that. But let's say you did that, that pound of muscle wouldn't require that many extra calories. If your body's efficient, now this is perfect efficiency. It doesn't really work this way. But if you ate enough to build that one pound of muscle per week, it would be a lot less than you think on top of what your body's normally burning. Do you agree with the estimates? I know this is a bit debunked a bit,

Starting point is 00:07:09 and I know it's tailored to each person and individualize. But how do you feel about 3,500 calories equals a pound of fat or muscle? Like, is it relatively close to that? If you took a pound of body fat and you were to look at the calories in that, yes. But through the metabolic process, you're talking about perfect deficiency, meaning there isn't a calorie loss to mitochondrial uncoupling or all these complex processes in the metabolism. Yes, but it's more complex than that. So you can take a pound of muscle and I can measure it and say,

Starting point is 00:07:44 this is how many grams of protein is in that, there's how many calories it took. But there's a lot of processes that lead to that. but in my experience, and I'd love your input, in my experience, for somebody to gain good lean body mass, that's not body fat with good programming, you're looking at about 500 to 1,000 calories above maintenance, right in that range. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:04 Right? Is that where you typically hit? Well, even if you figure that, figure that, so 1,000 times 7 and 7,000, that would be 2 pounds. Yes, yes. If it was a perfect transfer. Right, if it was a perfect transfer. So that's why I'm, the reason why I brought that up,

Starting point is 00:08:18 because I know there's a lot of people on the internet that have, like, shit on that number, like broke down the science for all the reasons that you're talking about. Oh, that's not true. And there's the difference between each person and the better block rate and, okay. But why I've always liked that number is because it helps simplify to the average person, like why we want to kind of stay in that range. It's like if the goal is, I want one or two pounds of muscle in a week, I want to land somewhere between 3,500 and 7,000 calorie surplus in a total week.

Starting point is 00:08:45 So divide that by seven days. What does that look like? well, that looks like somewhere between 500 and 1,000 calories. Now, there's two ends of the spectrum with this. On one end, you have people who are so afraid of gaining any body fat that they add 100 calories or 50 calories above maintenance. That's not going to work. Then on the other end of the spectrum,

Starting point is 00:09:03 you have people who aren't seeing the scale move up quick enough. And so they're like, well, I'm going to go 2,000, 3,000 calories above maintenance because I'm so obsessed with seeing the scale move up. This was me. And in that case, they gain body fat. So 500 to 1,000 over maintenance, meaning you figure out how many calories you're consuming on a regular basis. You could track. And then you just add 500 or 1,000 to that.

Starting point is 00:09:26 500 for most people, 1,000 for people with a quote unquote fast metabolism or who can gain body fat. Some people are like so lean that they should gain some body fat through this process. Then you're more towards 1,000. Add that in there. And then muscle building is a slow process. We're talking about a pound of muscle in a week. That's fast. Like if somebody gained four pounds of muscle a month, that's like crazy.

Starting point is 00:09:48 Yeah, it's the biggest misunderstanding is that it's actually a longer drawn-out process than people anticipate. And so they think that just cramming in more calories is going to, you know, accelerate the process. That's right. Yeah, you rarely even see that kind of number unless it's a relatively new lifter. Yep. Good point.

Starting point is 00:10:03 Like novelty, right? So somebody who's in their first three years of lifting, I might be able to see a pound to two pounds in a week of muscle consistently. They're in the Goldilocks zone. But rarely, I mean, most. veteran pro bodybuilders will tell you they are pumped if they put 10 pounds on in a year. Yeah. So that's less than a pound a month.

Starting point is 00:10:22 That's right. And these are pros. Yeah, yeah. You're talking about like nobody's training higher, nobody's dieting harder. You've been lifting for a long time. And because as you get closer and closer to that max potential. And you're also, you're including these guys are on a lot of gear and stuff like that. So sometimes it is.

Starting point is 00:10:37 It's just an unreasonable expectation that people have that like, oh, you think I could put on 15 pounds of muscle or 20 pounds of muscle? Well, yeah, you can. but what's our time frame? Like, oh, two months? Well, probably not. That's right. You can make, I think people also underestimate, though, what a difference of just a few pounds of muscle built and a couple pounds of fat off. Like, now that's what I think is really cool is that that, you know, chasing a number, some arbitrary number of 10 pounds of muscles, like, okay, it's one thing.

Starting point is 00:11:02 But understanding that you could literally add just a couple pounds of muscle and lose a few pounds of fat and radically look different. Well, five pounds of lean body mass or typically looks like almost a half an inch on your arms for a guy, typically. So it's a lot of muscle. Lean body mass, it's a decent amount. Yeah. 10 pounds is even... And I would argue, back to my point about losing body fat, that you add an inch of muscle to your arm and you cut out body fat.

Starting point is 00:11:24 Like, we know the difference of... I mean, yeah, exactly. The most compliments about the size of my arms I got was when I was the leanest, not when I was the biggest. That's right. That's right. So there's a lot more going on than just these numbers that we chase for muscle. And for someone who just wants to get lean, by the way,

Starting point is 00:11:39 this is a great way to get you the place where you get lean because we talk about building muscle to fuel their metabolic rate. If your goal is to lose a lot of body fat, you've heard of say on another podcast, you want to start by building because that sets you up for nice fat loss. So even if your goal isn't to gain muscle, and you just want to lose body fat, start with this,

Starting point is 00:11:58 and then later end with the cut. So the second thing that you want to focus on is protein intake, duh, but it's got to be pretty high, about one gram to one and a half grams per pound of target body weight. So if you want to gain 10 pounds in the scale, that's what you're aiming for. Okay. So if you're a 190-pound guy, you want to gain 10 pounds of lean body mass when we get to 200 pounds, 200 grams of protein a minimum or more or as high as 300 grams of protein, which is very high.

Starting point is 00:12:27 I'm giving that high target, by the way, because in my experience, now this is trainer, me talking right now, when I give people a high target, they typically miss and fall where I want them. I'm not going to hit it every time. Yeah, so I like people to aim above because. Because the odds are you're going to miss more often than not. Because it's hard. It's hard to hit this much protein. This is paramount, and this is where most people go wrong.

Starting point is 00:12:49 That's right. It's not hard to get an extra 500,000 calories through mint chip ice cream at night. You know what I'm saying? Or a bag of sour patch kids every day after your workout. That's right. Getting the extra calories isn't the hardest part of this process. It's getting good nutrient-dense calories and hitting your protein intake consistently. At least this is where every client that I've ever trained that struggle with putting it on muscle, including myself, this is where the rubber meets the road is can you hit that 500 to 1,000 consistently through whole foods and do that, hit that one and a half, maybe two grams of protein, pretty consistent.

Starting point is 00:13:27 Now, I understand what the science says you don't necessarily need the two grams, but to your exact point, more often than not, you're going to have a bad day. You're going to have a day when you oversleep or you miss a protein meal or you're traveling. and so you can't get your eight ounces of steak like you normally would. And so that's okay because you've been consistently hitting two. And so you hit one, one and a half that day. And I'll say this, like the same calorie diet, one high protein like we're saying, one, let's say low protein, let's say half of that, the high protein version, the same calories will build more muscle.

Starting point is 00:13:57 This is also true for fat loss. When you see a calorie deficit, the high protein version results in more fat loss than the one that's the low protein version. again, in the context of what we're saying here. So aim for a really high protein within this caloric surplus. That's where the magic is. Next up, eat carbs. Watching people try to build muscle on a low carb diet is futile.

Starting point is 00:14:22 It's very difficult. Can you do it? Yes, it's hard. It's just hard, you guys. It's harder to do it. Carbohydrates are protein sparing. They contribute to the pump, fluid in the muscle. They give you better performance.

Starting point is 00:14:34 a high fat, high protein diet produces a lot of satiety, which in some cases is good, and the case of trying to eat in a surplus may be difficult. This is coming from someone who ate like this for a long time. Trying to gain without eating carbohydrates was, it was just a couple not just harder. That's all. Not impossible, but it's difficult.

Starting point is 00:14:55 Almost impossible. It's very difficult. I would add to that choose easily digestible carbs. Yes. Because I think that makes a huge difference too. So I think no carbs makes it almost impossible. Yes, there's always the exception to the rule, but to try and, you know, bulk on the keto or low-carb diet is just so, so difficult.

Starting point is 00:15:17 But it's also difficult if you eat a lot of things that pastas and bread sometimes. And you think that's – now, if you're okay with you – Yeah, if you're totally okay with those foods and it doesn't bloat you and your body digest it great and it's fine, then it's okay. but I have found that to have way more success with things like white potato, sweet potato, rice, quinoa, that type of carbohydrate, your body tends to process it really well, and then you're ready for the next meal. Versus when I would do things like eat a big subway sandwich with lots of meat on it, which would be fine to be a 50 grand protein, you know, double meat sandwich.

Starting point is 00:15:55 But then all that bread would just, it would blow up me. It would slow down the digestive process. and then when I need to be eating again three hours later, I was like, no, I'm cool. You know what's interesting about this conversation is there's definitely a range of people who can tolerate things that contain gluten. Like, that's what you're talking about is like, by the way, high sugar carbohydrates, processed carbohydrates that are gluten-free

Starting point is 00:16:18 can also cause this. So I'm not just saying just gluten. You could eat like processed carbohydrate snacks that are gluten-free and they can also cause bloat and digestive distress. But generally speaking, it's the gluten-containing ones that I would notice. And there's a spectrum, right? You've got celiacs way over here. And then you got like varying degrees of intolerance.

Starting point is 00:16:35 But when I would work with my clients and I would ask them to pay attention and we would swap things out to see if we notice a difference, seven out of ten, maybe eight out of them did better avoiding gluten-containing carbohydrate. I'm glad you brought that up because there tends to be like these camps of, well, if you don't have celiacs, then it doesn't really matter. But I've experienced it. I don't. I can eat bread.

Starting point is 00:16:58 I can have those things. But if I'm on a mission to bulk, and I know I'm going to need to increase calories consistently and consistently eat a high protein diet, like I'm on a mission. I just have to cut out bread. Doesn't mean like if I'm in a maintenance phase where I'm like dieting like I am right now, it's not a high priority. Bread makes its way. And it's okay.

Starting point is 00:17:17 So what? So what? I'm blowed a little bit. So what? I don't hit my protein intake for a day. I'm not worried about it all the time. But if you're on a mission, I'm on a mission again. I've had the same exact experience with my clients that are like,

Starting point is 00:17:29 oh, I don't feel like the bread's a bad thing. It's just like, well, let's see if we sub that out. Let's swap it out with some rice and see if you know some difference. All of them. That's right. In fact, if, you know, people listening right now, you know, you know who you are when you eat a lot of bread or a lot of pasta where you kind of feel bogged down, kind of feel a little lethargic.

Starting point is 00:17:48 Like, that's what we're talking about. And it makes the whole diet much more difficult. Now, speaking of foods, I made a list of the muscle building superfoods. Okay. Now, it's not limited to this list, but I'm going to give you the whole. ones that make the biggest difference. Meat, and this is all meats, including chicken, we'll put fish in there. So all animal proteins. Bologna. Cooked. Bologna. Yeah, I always, whenever people talk about processed meats, I always picture like a bologna animal.

Starting point is 00:18:14 Yeah. Processed meat's don't count. But, you know, just like whole natural meats. Cooked, well-cooked vegetables. Berries are the super food of fruits because they're fiber content, easy digest. Eggs, of course, super anabolic. Rice and then different versions of potatoes. Like these are your like muscle building super foods. Now, it's not just these foods, but this should make up a big, a big portion of your diet. And then shakes, protein shakes.

Starting point is 00:18:42 You know what you use these, by the way? When you need to make up protein? Save your protein shake for the end of the day when you didn't hit your target and then throw it in there. Here's why I don't think it's a good idea to throw them in throughout the day. You can do that. And there's a lot of people that do it. So it's not like this is a, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:59 is going to kill you. But what tends to happen when people throw them in during the day is they tend to make their way into the diet all the time. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with a protein shake, but whole foods are just better. And look, okay, I know people love to point to the science and what's the difference? It's a gram of protein. In fact, this is high quality of protein.

Starting point is 00:19:18 I know personally, I know what the clients I've worked with, people do better with whole foods. They just feel better. They do better. take it for what it's worth. If you've ever, if you talk to anybody who's experimented with both, especially somebody who's competed and who knows what it feels like to do one or the other, they'll tell you the whole foods just, they just seem to be better.

Starting point is 00:19:40 It just natural limiters for the digestive process. Like you slowly digest it like you shit. Yeah. It always, too, it goes back to like, I mean, so how arrogant we are sometimes when we think like, we know, we still don't know everything about the metabolism. And yet you have people that having diet, these experiments. I've done this experiment. I've talked about it before when I competed where I did an entire run getting ready for stage where I allowed all the bars, all those eggs, everything I want.

Starting point is 00:20:06 And I got ripped. I did fine on stage. But when I did it all through Whole Foods, I felt different and looked just a little bit better. It's just, you know, so yes, you could totally do that and still look a great. It wasn't enough to be like, oh, wow, huge difference, but you feel different. And I did look different. And it was enough for me to be like, okay, going forward, my goal is, I'm always going to try and do it through Whole Foods, knowing that there's going to be days that I don't make that. And so that's why I love the strategy of use the shake at nighttime. Use a shake when you just finished dinner at 5 or 6 o'clock.

Starting point is 00:20:39 You're calculating up your grams of protein. You're like, oh, shit, I'm still 40, 50 grams short. I'm going to have that shake before I go to bed. Like, that's how I like to use it. That's right. And then here's the other big point with it is that I'm always, you know, again, as a trainer, my interest is less about the person's immediately. goals and more about can I help them do this and develop a relationship with this where they

Starting point is 00:21:01 want to do it forever. Okay. And protein powders are processed. And it's real food is real food. And I'd like for people to develop a relationship with real food where this is what they rely on and not on processed foods. Now, if you had to pick the best processed foods, typically the high protein ones and protein shakes are up there and I think they're valuable. But Whole Natural Foods is what we're always pointing to.

Starting point is 00:21:24 keep that protein powder as your insurance policy at the end of the day. And then lastly, manage your time. Manage your time and meal prep. If you get behind the eight ball with a muscle building diet, you're not going to, it's not going to work. If you wake up and you, oh, oh, oh, it's 11 o'clock. I haven't eaten breakfast yet, but I got to get 220 grams of protein. It's going to be rough trying to get all that in throughout the whole day.

Starting point is 00:21:46 So start your day off, right out the gates, high protein, manage your time. This is why body, this is one of the reasons why body build is eat on. a schedule. Now, I know that's a very extreme example, and we're not talking to bodybuilders here, but I like to use this extreme example because when you look at people who are managing a 5,000 calorie diet with 350 grams of protein, they're very structured because if they get behind the eight ball, then it's not going to happen. And I find this to be true with my clients as well. Well, if Mrs. Johnson's aiming for 150 grams of protein a day, which is for 150 pound female, and it's noon and she hasn't eaten yet,

Starting point is 00:22:24 it's not going to happen. It's going to be difficult. The truth is most people that get into working out are trying to do it to change body composition. And those are the best people at changing body composition in the world. And if you were to talk to any bodybuilder, I think I've met a couple maybe that don't prep.

Starting point is 00:22:42 I mean, very, very few. And the ones that do... I'm surprised that you even met a couple. Well, those are the ones that, like, do it like they don't... They're not trying to win. It's like, I'm not. going to get in shape and, you know, plan this day. If I get in the top 20, I get in the top 20.

Starting point is 00:22:55 Ain't nobody who's trying to win, who's trying to present the best physique they've ever done or compete with anybody else. Everybody preps. So, and they would all are, they would all say that's probably the number one thing that you have to do. Now, I don't think that everybody in here wants to have that physique, but the point is that those people are the best in the world at body composition change. So you can learn a few things. And there's things to learn.

Starting point is 00:23:16 And they would say, if you were to give them a list of what are all the most important things in changing your body composition, I guarantee. all of them would say that's the top of their list. 100%. So there's something to be learned there. All right. I want to talk about our partner, Manukkahora, but I want to talk about their product, which is Manuka Honey.

Starting point is 00:23:32 So I looked up some data on Manuka Honey and some of its values. So I didn't know that. Well, I did know this, but I think this is fascinating. So did you guys know that Manuka Honey, if you put it on superficial partial thickness burns or wounds or diabetic ulcers, surgical sites, if you put it on there, it's more effective than conventional dressings for healing and scar. Did you guys know that? It's so funny that we make, like, comparing it to like neosporin then?

Starting point is 00:24:06 Yeah, dude. Why even using neosporin then? So there's something in there called MGO, which Manukora has very, very high rates of this. It's one of the highest quality, which has this really powerful. natural anti-bacterial effects. I just hope you're not around ants. You want to know an ant fact? It's just random.

Starting point is 00:24:26 Sorry to take you off. So I'm going to do with my son. I just told her about it. I guess I have the science page that I follow. If you could put an ant on a white piece of paper and you draw a circle, it'll never leave that circle. Did you know that? I've heard that.

Starting point is 00:24:41 Yeah. I can't wait to do it with him. Never tried it. I saw it the other day and I told Max, I said, we got a trap an ant with a pencil. Dude, yeah, we have an ant farm now, too. By the way, I have a fear that the ant farm gets tipped over, and there's ants everywhere. And they're big, they're like big, what kind of ants are? Oh, those big, like the red ones, right?

Starting point is 00:24:57 Bro, these things stink. Oh, you have the sting ones there? Yeah, I'm like, why do they send these? It's not like fire ants, but they're, they're, they're, but these will bite you. They'll bite you, yeah. Yeah, they'll bite you. So, trip off this, it's good for respiratory tract infections. It's good for reducing plaque, gingivitis, paradontal pathogens.

Starting point is 00:25:16 and of course it's good for the microbiome of the gut and it's got these anti-inflammatory products. It's literally... Is that the main thing? It's anti-inflammatory? Antimicrobial. It tastes good. It's honey.

Starting point is 00:25:28 Yeah, it's another one of those things in our studio that doesn't last very long. It's gone. Yeah. I know. I'll have Katrina talk to them. The only other product that's gone is probably the fastest is our zibiotics.

Starting point is 00:25:40 I don't even see them. I had to buy it out of my own pocket. You know the studio is the only... The most frustrating thing is one of... You bought it at the best send it to us for free? Yeah. When I had to buy something that we were supposed to. Just so the audience knows, like, obviously all of our partners said,

Starting point is 00:25:54 that's irritate. Copeous amounts of everything to us. But there's certain things, like you're talking about that I go through. And for my birthday, by the way, are you coming? I know you're coming and you're coming. Yeah, I'll come. I'm trying to. It's okay.

Starting point is 00:26:05 We didn't want you there. I'm actually your friends. So, I mean, I just got the list. Like, it's like over the top wine. So we have a, like, a really fan. So you ordered a bunch of Zibati. Yeah, so that's why, because I'm like, we have all this, like, fancy wine coming. Dude, drinking without it sucks.

Starting point is 00:26:22 It reminds me of how terrible it feels to drink alcohol. Yeah. But I don't have Zibotic. I know. We had just one night we were going out with our friends to some, like, Jimmy Buffett concert, which, by the way, horrible. He has one song that I know. I was like, what is all this? It was a bunch of old people just, you know, in wine shirts.

Starting point is 00:26:42 Anyways, not what I expected. Was it your age group? I don't, because sometimes I'm in my age group, and I don't realize. I probably, but like I didn't, the lights were dark and where did you go to a Jimmy Buffett concert? Dude, it was like down, as I felt musical as like down the road. It wasn't Jimmy Buffett, though. I think he passed away.

Starting point is 00:26:58 No, no, no, it was like a cover band. It was like even worse. It was like some people that were like carrying on the torch of, you know, like mildly. Margaritaville. Entertaining jams. Is that his jam? Yeah. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:27:09 But anyways, like we had two left in like I was going to, oh yeah, hey, guys, I have this product. and I'm, like, mentioning it to our friends and all this. And then I was like, there's two. And I was like, actually, never mind. We just kept it for me. Dude, I'm hell of stingy with ours. Like, I keep them, so at my bar,

Starting point is 00:27:25 I keep them in a drawer in the back hidden because Katrina's family comes over. And, of course, their family, so they can help themselves to the bar. But then they all know about the zbiotics. So I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm out. You know, hell of lying. You know, when I keep them in the back.

Starting point is 00:27:36 Because I'm like, I need them. You know, like, alcohol runs in their family. That's coveting stuff over there, yeah. Although, do you know that? You know when we had that big scare with Katrina? It's been a year. You know that forever changed her relationship with alcohol. What do you mean?

Starting point is 00:27:50 She, after that happened, she's never really been able to drink like she used to drink. Oh, really? Yeah. And she notices only, this is weird, that, which is funny, I think, really expensive champagne or wine is the only thing that settles okay with it. Oh, shut. I swear to God. I swear. No, bro, this is, my wife is the one.

Starting point is 00:28:12 I can only tolerate Crystal. No. To take my wife to a restaurant is embarrassing to watch her order drinks because she's... Which one's the most expensive? No, she's a jack and coke girl. Oh, yeah. She's always to be like, you know, we're at some nice restaurant. And my wife's like, oh, I have a jack and coke.

Starting point is 00:28:29 I was like, what are you, 22? Somebody. I'm a Red Bull one. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, what are you the club? Come on Jack and Coke. Oh, I have a long island ice tea. Have some sort of sophistication.

Starting point is 00:28:38 So now I went to the other extreme. It's like only like really expensive bubbly. or really good wine. Even like kind of, have you been middle of the road type wine? I don't know what it is. But, and so,

Starting point is 00:28:49 isn't that weird? Yeah. After that whole incident, it's never. Interesting. And she's had multiple times. So here's why it doesn't make sense. So I was trying,

Starting point is 00:28:58 while you were talking, I'm trying to think, okay, what are the pathways of alcohol detox that could have potentially been affected by what happened to her? But then you said other alcohol is fine as long as it's expensive.

Starting point is 00:29:09 So I don't understand. I'm trying to think of it. So, well, I know, additives. Exactly. I know with wine, there's a lot of like,

Starting point is 00:29:15 additives and sugars and things like that. And if it's not, if it's not refined enough, like, there's people that get headache. Like, I know. I'm like that with wine,

Starting point is 00:29:21 yeah. Have you tried tricking her and getting cheap wine? Like, you know what I mean? Just to see if she's full, you know what you feel? It's like,

Starting point is 00:29:27 I'm not sure I want that night, just to prove a point. I can pick up on that, especially with well alcohol. Yeah. I know. Like, and I, and I'll call them out on them.

Starting point is 00:29:36 I'm like, you just poured well vodka in here. This is disgusting. I mean, Justin is the one that got me. I couldn't... Justin got me on nice whiskey. I was never like a whiskey guy because partly how it made me feel.

Starting point is 00:29:47 I get a headache from it didn't feel good. I feel awful. Now when I drink Angels envy, it's why I like it so much because I'm like, oh man, I actually can... It tastes good. It doesn't give me a headache. So there's definitely a difference

Starting point is 00:29:58 on how alcohol is processed. I only have one rule when I drink is it doesn't taste like a jolly rancher. It does, I'll have some. Otherwise, I can't... You're still at the college girl stage. You're at the college girl stage still. It's like, can you add a bunch of all the little...

Starting point is 00:30:10 umbrellas for sale. It's either a sugary, sugary drink, or I'm going to drink a shot because the goal is to get buzzed. Thank God. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. No one's going to mouth off to you and say when you order your purple drink. What a horrible way to mouth out? Oh, this is your drink? We should fight you. Hey, man. I'm the alcohol. No, but I'm sure there's plenty of guys that serve at you that would want to. No, they don't. They bring it to Jessica. So every time we get drinks, they give her mine and they give me her whiskey. And then we switch. And the guy looks at me like, what's going on here?

Starting point is 00:30:45 It's like. Yeah, he just own it. Sometimes I'll order one. It has like a hibiscus, like, flour on it. And I just put it right in my ear. I'm like, what's up, bro? Oh, that's when you're flirting. So anyway, how I want to talk about, I want to ask you about your weekend, Adam, if that's all right.

Starting point is 00:30:59 Oh, God, really? Yeah. So, to me open. I'm going to set you up. Okay. Really nice. You are my hero. Oh.

Starting point is 00:31:06 Okay. Because. What's happening right now? You went through something. You're going through something very... He's setting me up, Justin. Very. Okay, I know where this is going.

Starting point is 00:31:15 Very, very challenging. I was curious. And for all, you could totally keep this private. But, you know, you're not going to. I asked you before we turn on the mics. And it's a very challenging thing. And I think, yeah, I want to, I think it would be good if you share it a little bit of what's going on

Starting point is 00:31:31 because I know there's other people listening that probably could benefit. Yeah, well, the hardest part about sharing it right now is that I'm, I'm still on the fire. Right. So it's, I'm definitely, I'm not all the way through it. I'm on day five right now. So I would say that I'm through the worst part of it, but it's still not good at all. I've had, uh, in five days, I've had a total of about six hours of complete rest,

Starting point is 00:31:59 um, sitting here right. Total, total, total. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the first, the first, uh, two nights were absolutely zero, um, at all. And I'm going through opiate withdrawals and through Kratom. So I've used Kratum for almost three years now. And the way it was introduced to me, which is really interesting, I'll tell that story first so I can tell people how it crept in.

Starting point is 00:32:23 If you've listened to the podcast long enough, you've heard me tell stories way back when when I first had my knee surgery and I got hooked on Vicodin. That was my first experience of ever being addicted to something and going through withdrawals and like I didn't know what that was like so I'll save that story if you want it can go back and find that or listen to that but I slowly crept up on those one time when I had knee surgery and the doctor told me because I told them I was still in pain oh take it before the four hours and before you knew it. Stay ahead of the pain was what the advice was and I remember you know pain was done and I said I'm good just stopped taking them I still had some left in the

Starting point is 00:33:01 bottle and it had already been I don't know a month or two or whatever after the surgery and everything and I had like these terrible flu symptoms running nose headaches the chills you're getting nauseous and I was like in that whole first night I didn't sleep at all and then the second night it was like again I was those I'm like man what an awful time to get the flu and I remember getting ready for bed when I had this flu going I just want to sleep I'm going to go take one of those those vicodans help me sleep so I'm going to I'm going to take one of those and I remember taking it like six o'clock or seven o'clock at night and all the symptoms disappeared and I felt good and I went what the fuck and I and I instantly got on the internet and it was like it started go at that point I'm the I'm oblivious

Starting point is 00:33:45 I'm totally naive at this point of opiates and and the addiction and withdrawals or anything that never experienced anything like that in my life and I was like holy shit I'm addicted and so I went down reading researching kind of I do it and I tailored myself off and I was and I was fine so that's kind of my backstory and my relationship with opiates. Fast forward years later, I have a relative of mine that is battling a Viking addiction. I share him my story and my process, and he's pretty hard on it,

Starting point is 00:34:16 and he's having a hard time. And at that time, I had just recently seen a documentary on Kratom. And I said, hey, I've never... Was this the Mark Bell one? This is before Mark. Even before, yeah, even before him. So I tell him about it.

Starting point is 00:34:34 And I have never, I've never experienced it or anything like that. I just said, hey, I watched this really great documentary. It talks about this natural plant that's in Asia or somewhere over there. And it's, it acts on the opiate receptors. It's done miraculous things for people that are addicted to opiates, to getting them off. You should try it. So I tell him that. And I don't see him for like six months.

Starting point is 00:34:58 Six months go by and he's at my house. and I see he's got this cradone with him. And I'm like, oh my God, you have the cratome. I was like, how's it working? He's like, oh, it's amazing. And I'm like, what? I'm like, how much does it feel like the Vicod? And he goes, just like it.

Starting point is 00:35:12 I'm like, I mean just like it gets, can't feel like a Vicodian. He's like, oh, yeah. He's like, here, try six of them. Hands me six of them. I take it and I go, who an hour later, I'm sitting on the couch. I'm like, I felt like I just took my, like a Vicodian again. And that was like the first time. And so now at this point, I already, I am very aware that I like that feeling.

Starting point is 00:35:35 And so recreationally, that would make its way into my life, you know, periodically here and there on a weekend or this or that. And so for me, it felt like, oh, it's no different than having a glass of wine or things like that. And then over a year or two later, it became something that I noticed that, oh, I start to allow myself to have more consistently throughout the week. And so it just kind of slowly crept. And then the justification that I played with myself or told myself is it's a plant. It's natural. It's an herb. It's not a pharmaceutical.

Starting point is 00:36:07 I'm not addicted to it like that. I can handle. And now we're getting closer to the last three years of my life as I've allowed it to kind of creep up the amount. Now, within those three years, I've had multiple times where I've progressed the, the dosages up. And then I've noticed it get kind of high. And then I creep it back down. And you guys have heard me on the podcast.

Starting point is 00:36:28 I've talked about. you know, my relationship with all drugs. I've always been able to caffeine included, marijuana, you name it. I tend to pay attention to my intake, my behavior. I always want to know that I'm in control and I taper down and I do that. And so I've been able to do that with Kratum for the first part of my relationship with it. And so, again, justifying like, I'm cool. I can always taper back down and come back down.

Starting point is 00:36:54 And I just got into a place in the, I'd say the last two years where, you know, it was for sure daily. And not only was it daily was I was consistently doing it. And then what would happen is the thing that, and it started at a dosage like six total in a day, like nothing. And for the people that understand, that's three grams of Kratom. And so, like, so three grams.

Starting point is 00:37:17 And then that you can't feel it anymore. And so you bump another gram. Yeah. And then you bump another gram, right? And then you start to notice that, I'm not getting as good as sleep. And so you bump another gram. And so I kept doing this.

Starting point is 00:37:29 And then it got to a, a point where, you know, I remember the first time, I was like, you know, I'm feeling and tired of the weather, not really the best feeling. I want to feel nice in the morning time before I podcast. I'll have some in the morning now. So fast forward over the last couple of years. And, you know, I reached a level of, so I was doing 16, three times a day. And I think at this point, I'm fully aware of how, how much it's got a hold of me. And I don't like that. Like it's it's bothering me. And yet I'm still playing the game in my head that I know that oh, I can taper down. I can I can do this. And so and but I had this point and this was probably,

Starting point is 00:38:11 I want to say six months ago, I go, okay, no more. I'm going to stay right at this level until I plan a week or two when I, or that I can really start to taper down. And what happened was I maintained that for actually quite some time. It was almost six months. And then all of a sudden, And my body adapted so much to it that like now it almost felt like I was not getting it that I had to take more to sleep. And then I was like starting to play around with, okay, well, I'll hold back a little bit in the morning. So I'll have more in the night. It was all just so I could get a good night's sleep. And I went, holy shit, this thing has got a hold of me so bad.

Starting point is 00:38:45 And then I mentioned to you guys last week. I said, you know, I've got to get off. And I think that it's got a hold of me so bad that I might have to check in because I don't know if I can. because I had already tried to taper a few times and was not having success. I was tapering and then I'd have some sort of something come up, work, family, whatever. And I'd be like, ah, man, I don't want to feel like shit

Starting point is 00:39:07 with family without. Prayed a lot about it. And I was like, you know what? Like, do I really want to check myself in? I'm like, I know I need at least three to five days because I know what I've experienced opioid withdrawals before. And anybody who's listening knows. And for the audience who doesn't know,

Starting point is 00:39:26 There ain't nothing like it. Nicotine, alcohol. Heroin is an opiate. So the only thing close to it is heroin. Heroin is an opiate. The addiction withdrawals on that is like nothing. Yeah. I was talking over the weekend,

Starting point is 00:39:39 you were telling me it feels like your bones want to come out of your body. Like your skeletons trying to get out of your body. You're telling me. Consistently, like every second. Like it doesn't let off. It doesn't let off at all, at all. And I had all the resources and tools.

Starting point is 00:39:54 So I had sauna, red light, cold plunge, steam, sweating it out, all the vitamins. I mean, I had everything to help me through this process. And again, back to I was praying about it. And when I was praying about it, the thing that came to me was, I need to suffer. I can't justify tapering it down real slow. And a taper from that high of a dose would probably take six months of just peeling off. That's like if you read all the recommendations, they'll tell you to pull a gram off a day. And the amount of grams, if you did the math on where I was at, I was like over 30 grams a day.

Starting point is 00:40:34 It would take a very long time to get it tapered down. And then if I did, I told myself, you know what? If I tapered and actually it wasn't so bad, maybe I would justify probably doing it again. Oh, I see what you said. And so I think the answer I got was, no, you need to suffer. And so I just, I told you guys on Wednesday, like, I'm going to do it. And you asked me then if I would talk about it.

Starting point is 00:40:58 And I'm like, let me see first because I thought, I knew that it was going to be so bad that I might have to go into a rehab center. And so, well, the way that that Kratum is sold and communicated is it's like it's this, it's not a big deal. You know, you said it's natural. You got people in the fitness space that kind of promote it. And it's, it could be really. I was nowhere near what you did, but when I came off, I felt extreme lethargy and some depression that lasted for roughly a week, which sucks by itself. So I didn't get what you felt. But it's really easy to try to avoid that because it sucks and you can't work and you can't function.

Starting point is 00:41:48 And even until this day, like I haven't touched it since then, but there's always a little bit of that pull because then it comes and then what you think is like just a little bit you know what's the big deal you know I won't do it again or whatever um but um I know a lot of people struggle because I talked about coming off on my series and the comments underneath were people who were like thank you for talking about this I struggle with this oh my god I came out was terrible you told me this is the worst thing you've ever experienced with Kratom this is uh this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life I've done a lot of hard things in my life for sure And I pride myself on my discipline

Starting point is 00:42:24 To be able to do almost anything It's why I was successful at bodybuilding Like I can put when I put my mind to something And say I'm gonna do something Like I'm disciplined But I mean And if you didn't pick up on that That was like well I didn't even want to talk about

Starting point is 00:42:40 I was that because I knew what I was heading into And day one I was prepared for hell And I got it you know and it was worse than I could have ever imagined. But I also have that grit where it's like, all right, I can, I'm going to get through this. Day two almost broke me. Day two brought me to tears. And the hardest part about it is when I've got a bottle of it five feet.

Starting point is 00:43:03 I mean, I had it next to my nightstand because I was like, if I can't do this, I've got to, I'll just take some. That's hard. And so knowing that. I had to get out of the house. Knowing that it's right there and this, all this goes away. And then I'll figure it out later. I kept it right in front of me. And I'm crying and rolling around on the bed.

Starting point is 00:43:22 And, you know, three in the morning, I'm taking cold plunges just so I can have some relief. Because after a cold plunge, that how tingly and numb you become gave me about a two to three minute relief. So you can imagine me at, you know, 45, 50 degrees outside pitch black, jumping into my pool naked just so I can just freaking torture myself. Did you have any moments of laughter during this suffering? Or you're like, man, this is crazy. I actually couldn't get there until probably day three or four with Katrina. And what that looked like was Katrina would be like, hey, how are you doing? And I would laugh.

Starting point is 00:44:00 I'm like, I feel fucking terrible. But I feel so much better than what I did two days ago. Like at this point, I've got diarrhea. I've got stomach aches. I've got headaches. I've got hot, cold flashes. But I'm like, it doesn't feel like a demon is leaving my body. body right now. I'm like so like I'm joyful. It's like this, it was this weird, you know, day,

Starting point is 00:44:20 and that was like day three, day four. Day one and two, though, day two, especially because day two, one, mentally prepared for a no night of sleep, whatever, but the, like, you, we've talked about this before. The absolute worst torture is no sleep. And try getting no sleep and not, and being rest, not being, not being able to even sit still. So I can't even, so what happens is like, I haven't been in my room with my wife because I constantly pace the house. I go downstairs. I shove my head into the couch, shivering, shaking, flopping around like a fish, get up, walk upstairs the other room.

Starting point is 00:44:54 And I'm like, I'm so exhausted. I'm afraid I'm going to fall down the stairs. But I know I have to keep moving because movement is the only thing that gives me a little bit of relief from the tremors and the trying to feel like your skeleton's jumping out. And so, and the second day of no. sleep, all I could think about is I can't do another night of, of this, like this, this bad. And it's been, it's still, I've still had pretty much no sleep and it's been bad every night, but not as torturous as it was the first two.

Starting point is 00:45:30 But yeah, let me tell you something else about what's going on with Kratum right now, too. California just banned it. I don't know that. Yeah, yeah. So California is pulling it out of smoke shops right now. But here's this stupid part. And this is where this is going to get dangerous is the product. 7-0-H, which is the concentrated

Starting point is 00:45:45 version. Stronger version. Way stronger. Comes in a little package of five pills, and it's equivalent to what a whole bag of Kratom is. Dang. Okay? So, that is still, because the FDA hasn't caught up yet, that's able to

Starting point is 00:46:01 be sold. They're always playing that game. Well, here's the worst part about this, though. You just, there's, for sure, there's thousands, if not millions. Oh, I know what you're just like me right now. They're going to go for that now. That's their only option. If you live in California, and got pulled off your shelves. You know what's going to happen when they pull that?

Starting point is 00:46:15 Because people are going to go to the streets. For fentanyl. Yes. And part of one of the things that helped me through this, I told you this, you know, I'm not sleeping for five days. So obviously I'm listening to audio books and YouTube and I have to stay busy. I watched probably a hundred withdrawal videos of people and stories and everything like that.

Starting point is 00:46:38 Something about that helped me. Just hearing other people go through. it and talk about making it through and stuff like that. I watched a lot of that. And the one, the only ones that sounded remotely, first of all, nobody had as much cradem as I was. So that was also. So you're first place. Yeah. That was enlightening. Like, talk about, talking about feeling like you won the loser. That's how you roll, dude. There's another like watching a bunch of losers. Talk about coming off of an addiction to be like, wow, I'm the biggest loser of all these. I was like, oh, God, man. I was like searching.

Starting point is 00:47:10 I'm like, someone's got to be worse. me and the only people that were worse than me were the 70H people. The people that started on Kratum got introduced to 70H and then they progressed a little bit. Oh, thank God you didn't do that. Oh, so part of the part of the thing that tipped me that was so complete transparency. This is how bad this was. So I told you guys, I said, I'm doing this. I'm tapering this.

Starting point is 00:47:36 Like I said I was already setting the goals in my head. How was going to do it? They already, I found out they removed the shelves. And I'm like, oh, shit. So you're going to be forced anyway. So I'm like, what am I going to do? So I ordered 3,000 from Nevada. Wow.

Starting point is 00:47:49 So I've got 3,000 of them already ordered because I was already doing the math. I'm like, if I taper this. Oh, I see. It's like, and I ain't going to 70H. So I better get myself stocked up. And so I stocked it up. And that was kind of the tipping point for me. Like, I'm like, what am I doing?

Starting point is 00:48:04 What am I doing? Like, I'm like, and I'm like, F this. Yeah, I need to just. Throw them away. I need to suffer, dude. I need to suffer. and I need to feel it. The spiritual side, the spiritual part of this,

Starting point is 00:48:14 I said this is what I said to you, because this is the experience I had, not with Kratom, but with other stuff. And just, you know, it's a myth. And this is, you know, now we're going to get a little on the faith side, but it's a myth. It's a terrible lie that the world sells us

Starting point is 00:48:29 that we got it. We can do it. We can do anything. You can make anything happen. This was my mantra. And the reason, and this was my mantra, and it was reinforced by what I had accomplished

Starting point is 00:48:39 in the world. It worked. I got the things that the world promised when you do that. But that's all I got. I didn't get anything else. So it left me empty and lost. And it took me getting broken, which takes a lot. For some of us, it takes more than others to get broken.

Starting point is 00:48:56 You're really strong. You're incredibly resilient, Adam. You're probably the most resilient person I know. And so, you know, the spiritual side of me says that this was to get you to that place to where you're relying on him. and saying, okay, I can't do this because I can't think of anything else that would get you there. Yeah, I have a different opinion on that. What do you think?

Starting point is 00:49:17 Well, you know, you got to remember that I've been with him for a long time, right? I've had a relationship with him for a long time. I sent you and Jessica a quote. Yeah, I love it. Love it. And, yeah, he whispers to me all the time when I'm not listening, right? Or when I'm ignoring or when I think I'm going to do it my way. And he has gentle whispers for a long time.

Starting point is 00:49:39 and then eventually it becomes this loud thing, right? So for me, it's like, I'm never like, I mean, I know that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, and I know that faith without work is dead. And so I have nothing that we've built here done. Do I believe is on my deeds? So I'm not that man. I don't think that way.

Starting point is 00:50:03 I don't believe that way. But I do know that I'm human, and even with years with a relationship with him like that, I can have these point patterns where I play games and justify and ignore the whispers and continue down my path and eventually it gets louder. And, you know, it got loud enough to me to go like, okay, which, and also I think part of the message was you need to suffer.

Starting point is 00:50:29 So you remember. Yeah, so you remember. And so that was like, to me, like I don't think that I, I don't think I need to be brought to my knees to realize, that, you know, all things are through him. And, like, I already know that. Like, I've, I've been walking in that faith for a very long time in my life. It was more like, hey, I've been gently whispering to you for a long time.

Starting point is 00:50:47 And you know, you know, and, you know, here's me getting louder. And then it was like, okay, I hear you. It's time for me to do it. I know. Well, that's good. That gives you some great purpose, I bet. Some good, like, let's do this. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:51:01 And I think that it's, in looking, being on this side of it now where I just feel like crap. instead of... Yeah, that's what you said. You said, man, I would love a bad night of sleep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's hard to describe, man. I tell you, I know there's some...

Starting point is 00:51:16 I mean, we have so many listeners. I know there's somebody, lots of people probably listening that I've experienced opiate withdrawal. It's nothing like anything else. It's nothing like anything. The other, a lot of the other stuff, I've, you know, named the thing. I've messed with it.

Starting point is 00:51:28 I've done it, whatever about that, is psychological. Like where you just had the mental discipline. It's different to have mental discipline and it's different to have a physical, torture. Physical chemistry pulling towards something and it's... Well, you're not producing any feel-good chemicals. That's what happened. Is it when you do these

Starting point is 00:51:45 things, your body stops, you just don't have the receptors for them. So you have nothing that feels good, which feels terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder, what would be interesting is how much the things that I have, because it feels like nothing's helped me because I feel so miserable. But I can only imagine a lot of that stuff did.

Starting point is 00:52:01 And I could only imagine like... Oh, what it would be like... Yeah. Oh, remember how we talked about? I wanted to share this. This is like nothing to do with anybody else or sponsorship stuff or nothing. But remember when we had that NAD IV? And none of us were really impressed with it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:17 Yeah. I have a feeling that had a lot to do with that, we're all relatively healthy guys. And so just didn't know this time when I did it. Did you know that for this time? I felt it. So I think I would, I think. So they hooked you up to the IV.

Starting point is 00:52:31 So I did, I did a full, I did a 500 milligrams of NAD IV. I did glutathione. I did all B vitamins. I did, it was like a full wellness drip. And I, 45 minutes dripped it all in me. And I remember when we did it at that time, I didn't feel, I felt uncomfortable. I didn't really like how I felt afterwards.

Starting point is 00:52:51 This made it, like, that was, I felt, that was two days ago. That's good for people to know. Yeah. So I think that stuff, when you're really depleted or you're really bad. And part of what led me to do that was, of course, I'm doing all kinds of research on like anything that. will help. And there's a lot of positive stuff about NAD with withdrawals.

Starting point is 00:53:12 And I looked up, found a place that did the drip. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to go do that and see how that feels. And so I was a little nervous about having to sit still for that long. It's hard for me to sit still for that long of time. And I didn't know. And I don't do good with needles in my arm already. So it's like, we'll see how that goes. And then lady jabs me three times, which was ironic about that.

Starting point is 00:53:33 I think, could you imagine. I got all this nervous. I got with what you said about suffering. It's like, oh, this needle is not even to work. Bro, like, it's, that's the perfect arm for. Bro, this stuff has been comical, right? So it's like, here I am in my head. I'm going like, I can't, I, Katrina's like, can you sit still for 45 minutes a trip?

Starting point is 00:53:49 I was like, I don't know. I'm like, because I haven't been able to sit still for that long yet. And so I'm like, I don't know. Let's just hope that this makes me feel so good. And then I'm talking to the nurse and like, you know, I've got crazy veins. Most nurses go crazy when they see my arms. Like, like, and I don't do good when they're doing it. have to look away. So I'm like, look it away at Katrina.

Starting point is 00:54:08 And this BZ is fucking jabbing me three times. Like, we'll show the audience. Yeah. If you're watching, we took, Justin took a picture. I'll have them give it to anything. But my arm is bruised up. So nasty. She said that the veins roll when they're big? Yeah. I think she's full of crap.

Starting point is 00:54:25 I've never had a problem. Come on, dude. Yeah. I was, I was like, this is what are the, I'm like, this is comical. I'm like, it's on top of it. Yeah. It's like the hardest part for me is that It's like, why didn't she's like over here? I'm like, no, you're going to, it's going to be hard to be. I'm recording telling me all kinds of stories when she had to actually come in and do an IV on top of like a little kid's head. Oh.

Starting point is 00:54:46 And there's just like, you know, the thing is you either got it or you don't. Like if you're a good nurse and you, that's your thing. I feel like that too. I feel like you, because I've had, I mean, we do our blood work every six months and we're all used to that stuff. Yeah, they're fast. Yeah. Some people are just amazing. Real efficient.

Starting point is 00:55:03 Yeah. And then others are like, they're over. Okay. There's definitely a spectrum here. That was, and that was, that's a comedy of errors for sure. Yeah. Oh, totally comedy. I mean, all the, I'm, I've had blood drawn or taken and stuff like that probably a hundred times. And that was the worst. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:18 Like, like, could it not be like the middle of the pack or something? Like, come on, man. Seriously. We're suffering, please. Yeah. Well, hey, man, I'm, I'm thinking for sharing that, bro. Yeah. We love you, dude.

Starting point is 00:55:30 You guys asked me on Wednesday. I wasn't, I wasn't ready. Because I feel you. I didn't know. I did. I almost broke, dude. So I just... Well, you didn't.

Starting point is 00:55:40 Good. No. We're here. Coming through it. We're here. What do you expect? Like a week longer of just garbage? You know, bro?

Starting point is 00:55:47 What do people say? So, I mean, a lot of videos I watch, people were talking months later. They're still not normal. So I expect a week probably of still miserable sleep. Yeah, like miserable sleep and so like that. So I'm hoping by next week I can get at, like, at least a... night. And I'll take five hours asleep, four or five hours of sleep. I'll take that

Starting point is 00:56:08 straight. Like I've had broken half hours. That's the most I've had. Um, so I would just, I would love for a four hour block would just, oh, would be the most amazing thing ever. So if I can get that by end of week, that'll make me feel good. Because now at this

Starting point is 00:56:24 point, that's the most torturous thing right now. But the day, at least the daytime's like, I mean, I feel. I'm surprised you have coherent thought right now. Yeah. I was actually nervous about today, like, you know, I really... You operate really well in a little sleep. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:56:39 Better than anybody. I don't know how you do it. I'm like, I'm terrible. Well, you say all the smart stuff on the podcast. So there's true. It's a little bar. Yes. I don't get to contribute anything really to tell us.

Starting point is 00:56:53 Just don't ask me any hard questions. You want to ask me a hard question right now. So, you know, Adam Lane Smith interviewed me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. great conversation with him.

Starting point is 00:57:05 But like I actually, he asked me, I mean, obviously I'm not, I wasn't going through that quite yet or anything like that, although I was on the front end of it. And I was, I thought we were just, I thought he was going to kind of dive more in my relationship. But he wanted me to talk about like developing other, other men. And he like, he started asking me like stuff about like how to, you know, if a like a woman is treating a man like this. Can you develop that lead by this? Like stuff that's like, bro, this is your field, not mine. I'm like, I had to defer, I'm like, you know. Adam, you're like, I'm not the therapist here.

Starting point is 00:57:37 I don't know. Yeah. But you're just thinking about like hard questions. I was like, I didn't think that was, I thought we were going to be like, he's going to do like a full like analysis on me and I was going to be open about it. But he started asking me like therapy questions. You bust out your test drive, uh, a relationship thing theory. No, no, no, no.

Starting point is 00:57:56 No, no, no, that's the best. That's old school. No, we did. We had a great, it's going to be a really cool. I mean, I love the one we have. He was so good. I can't wait to air that. I can't wait to air that for the audience, too.

Starting point is 00:58:07 And then him and I had a really good conversation. Katrina will like it because I got to pump her tires for a full podcast. Oh, nice. I had Father Steve on my series. Oh, how is that? Bro, he can, he's, well, of course, I love him. He's such a great guy. Such a nice guy.

Starting point is 00:58:23 What's his background again? Because, I mean, I know you're going to get into a little bit of, he lifts and he's huge. He became a, he became a, he didn't become a priest until he was in his later 20s. He was one of the, he took a while before. He actually had a normal job. Later 20s. Yeah, like he got into the seminary. I know, but I mean, is priesthood normally that early?

Starting point is 00:58:41 They start earlier, usually. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. So he had a normal job, corporate job. He raised money for companies, which is now what he does for World on Fire. Do you guys want to know, first off, he's almost 60, which he looks in eight. Wow. Do you guys want to know the last time he competed?

Starting point is 00:58:56 When? In bodybuilding? In 2019. He was on stage. Oh, that during, in 2019. What? in his speedo posing. And he won.

Starting point is 00:59:07 He got the first. He got first and over. That would be hilarious, dude. That would be hilarious. Hey, how do you judge him bad? God's watching. 10, 10, 10.

Starting point is 00:59:17 But he connected bodybuilding with the spiritual walk. And he did such a great, because I'm like bodybuilding. I'm like, oh, Father Steve, you have an issue with straight. Let me hear. I'm so curious. Well, he said a lot that I can't even put.

Starting point is 00:59:30 Actually, let me ask you guys this. You don't have to be gentle. How often am I speechless? Yeah. Never. Okay. I was speechless like 10 times. Just right there.

Starting point is 00:59:39 Because he was saying. Small pause. He was saying things and he was just blowing my mind. But one of the things I remember that he said was, he goes, you know, competing and bodybuilding for me, he goes, there are parallels to the spiritual walk. I'm like, I mean, I could see the discipline and sacrifice right away. That's easy. Right, right.

Starting point is 00:59:57 He was talking about going on stage. He goes, you're on stage. Interesting. He goes, you're on stage. Being judged by others. You're almost naked. You've got, you can't hide anything. And they're pointing out.

Starting point is 01:00:08 And you're vulnerable and you're presenting your floss. Oh, interesting. And I'm like, wow, Father Steve, you just made bodybuilding sound spiritual. But there's so much that he connected. So much that he connected. And he's a real meathead, by the way. He's a legit meathead. Did you get to ask him a little bit about, because we talk about how we typically do not.

Starting point is 01:00:26 The callers that we get, we tend to discourage them from bodybuilding. Did you talk a little bit about like, you know, like where you have to be, you know, with your body dysmorphia? He's just such a, I mean, he's, no, he talked about the gym he goes to, how the church can learn a lot from gym culture. Like, if you're in a gym, if you go to a hardcore, we've said this before, you go to a hardcore gym and you're struggling with your weight, okay, you're welcomed. You're not just welcomed, you're encouraged. And in fact, if there's ever a moron that decides to discourage you openly in a gym like that, that person will get kicked out by everybody else because that's not the culture. He's like, you know, the church could do better at that.

Starting point is 01:01:11 You know, where somebody walks in and they're just starting to pursue their faith. They don't know much, but they know they want to go in this direction. But they're bringing along with them, like everybody, by the way. I don't care how mature you are spiritually. We all have sin with us. But he's like, you walk in and some people feel like they're looked. down upon. And so he talked a lot about all these incredible things. It was just so great. We had a great workout. Well, I had a good workout because of what we talked about, but you could tell you

Starting point is 01:01:38 want to do more. He wanted to get after it, which is pretty funny. He really wanted to get after it. He's a total meathead. It's so great. Then I had him over for dinner and then he... Did you dead live with him? What did you do? No, no, no, no. We did bodybuilding stuff. Straight bro workout stuff. He's been lifting weights since he was 14. Wow. Since he was 14. That's so cool. I know, isn't it? Anyway, that's, that's, that episode will come out at some point and then you guys will be able to see it. That's cool. Yeah, I'll check it. It's good stuff. Element is an electrolyte powder. You add to your water, no artificial sweeteners, no sugar. It's got the right amount of sodium. Most electrolyte powders don't have enough

Starting point is 01:02:11 sodium to make a difference. That's not element. Element makes a difference. Get better pumps, better performance. Go try them out. Go to drink elemente.com forward slash mind pump. And on that link, you'll get a free sample pack of their most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase. Back to the show. Our first caller is Ariel from Florida. Ariel. Hello. How are you? Hey, how are you guys?

Starting point is 01:02:34 Good. Love the show. Been listening for a few years now, and I'm so appreciative of all the knowledge I gained from this podcast. So thanks for that and thanks for having me on. Thank you. How come to help you? Yeah, so some background on me.

Starting point is 01:02:46 I'm 27 and have lived a very active lifestyle for the past 14 years. I work out five days a week, three strength days, and two cardio days. The gym I go to was originally across. gym, but has shifted away from that to more of a strength and conditioning focus. The coaches and programming are amazing. They all listen to you guys, so I trust them. Outside the gym, I'm an avid surfer and tennis player. I typically play tennis a couple times a week and surf whenever I can. Some days I'll work out, surf and play tennis. Less common, but it definitely happens sometimes. For the past five years, I've been working at a desk, and this year I've really been feeling it.

Starting point is 01:03:28 My back is tight and sore pretty consistently, no matter how much I stretch. I consider myself a very flexible person, but now I can barely foam roll my back without it feeling like it's going to break. I know it's not dramatic, but in addition to my midback tightness, I've been feeling a little bit thicker and not as lean as I'd like. My peers say I look great, but inside I feel bloated and puffy. I eat around 120 grams of protein a day, stick to whole foods, and try to buy organic meat and produce whenever I can. Since noticing the bloating and feeling thicker, I started adding more walks during the week to increase my steps. On days when I'm not playing tennis to serving, I'll walk a mile. And four weeks in, I started to feel a lot better about myself.

Starting point is 01:04:15 I try not to look at the scale since it can mess with me mentally. But back in February, I took an in-body scan. and it came out to be like 1302 pounds with 21% body fat and 58 pounds of muscle mass. My energy feels good. I'm pretty strong for my size and I perform well in all my workouts, but I can't help feeling like I should be doing more since I don't feel lean. My coach thinks I should chill out of it, trade a cardio day for rest day, and just walk more to work hours. I think that's solid advice, but it's definitely hard for me to skip a gym day.

Starting point is 01:04:47 So my question to you guys would be, how can I, achieve leaning out with everything that I'm doing and what steps would you suggest for me in reducing or managing my back tightness? And a small update, I've been seeing a chiropractor, which has been helping a ton. And I have been skipping one of my cardio days for a hot yoga class instead, but everything else is pretty much the same. How many days of lifting? Did you say you're doing? Three days. Three days. When you say bloat and puffiness, are you, so are you talking about like digestive bloat, like gut bloat? I guess like in my midsection, yeah, some bloat there for sure.

Starting point is 01:05:29 I just feel like I was once like a skinny, lean person. And now that I'm like a woman, I'm just gaining weight in areas that I'm like, this is like not normal for me. Or it wasn't normal before. And now I'm like, I don't know. I just feel like I'm like blossoming into an adult. And it's just like different. You're still real young.

Starting point is 01:05:50 Yeah. But, okay, so inflammation and blow can come from digestive issues or inflammation from the gut. So if you've noticed any changes in your digestion, like regularity, you know, constipation, actual, you know, gas, bloating, that kind of stuff. Then, you know, working on gut health, which, you know, quite common, by the way. Gut issues are quite common, especially in young women. they tend to be more common in young women because women tend to have issues with regularity more often than men do, although it's also common in men. So that's one thing you can look at. By the way, you're lean.

Starting point is 01:06:27 21% is a good body fat percentage. It's a really good, healthy fit. Hormones aren't going to get affected negatively. Some women can go below 20 and stay in the 1817, but in my experience, a significant percentage of women when they start to dip below. like 19 consistently, we start to see hormone issues. So we start to see issues with, like, you know, things that would affect fertility. You'd also, if you have any changes in your period, then sometimes that's indicative of overtraining.

Starting point is 01:07:00 I think your coach is probably right that you probably maybe take a little bit of time off. You know, hot yoga for a cardio day is it okay trade? Yin yoga would have been better. Hot yoga is kind of an intense. version of yoga. And the other thing is this is how many, so you have a desk job. So you're sitting at a desk for eight hours. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:07:24 I mean, I work from home, so I have a standing desk. So I like, I try and stand, but I find myself sitting most of the time. Yeah. Here's the thing with sitting that sucks. Strength training will protect you a lot. Being active protects you a lot, but nothing protects you 100% from sitting so much. The best thing that I found in the clients that I've worked with a lot of clients that sit at a desk for long periods of time.

Starting point is 01:07:48 The best thing that I've ever had them do was every 45 or 60 minutes, I would have them do three to five minutes of mobility. So literally they would have like, you could use an Apple Watch or a timer. Thing goes off. They would stand up and they'd do like a trigger session or some mobility for five minutes and sit back down.

Starting point is 01:08:07 That was the best, like that solved the whole thing. But you've got to be real consistent with it. So you're going to get up six or six or six or, seven times a day and do like three to five minutes of mobility. And like I said, they see a huge difference. Have you done any food insensitivity tests or any kind of like gut testing to see? Yeah, you know, I haven't done like an actual, I've done a couple tests, but it was kind of like one of those cheaper ones that, you know, aren't through like legit labs.

Starting point is 01:08:39 But that was kind of like my next thing to figure out because I do feel better when I'm not eating like a ton of like grains and gluten but I don't want to be like so restrictive with like my diet because I can be pretty like hardcore about what I eat and I kind of just want to be like a little more chill and laid back because I already eat super healthy. So that's kind of like where I'm at. And like since the in body like I have gained like I'm 140 now and like I feel good but I yeah I still feel like puffy. You could be a slight intolerance to something.

Starting point is 01:09:17 You could have with the grains or gluten or something that's just, it's not enough to really hit you hard, but enough to just kind of have this low level inflammation and water retention happening. I'll tell you this. In my experience, if I have people eliminate gluten for just gluten for 30 days, almost always they notice positive. And I'm talking, we're pretty controlled with the macro.

Starting point is 01:09:43 So it's not like the macros changed. Especially bloat. It just makes it for inflammation. And in that category, so every time I've had people remove gluten, not every time, most of the time, they're like, man, I notice a big difference. Like they say they notice a difference. So it's not subtle. It's like, well, I notice a big difference. Within that category, my female clients notice the biggest difference.

Starting point is 01:10:05 And if you look at the data on gluten intolerance, it tends to be skew a little bit worse for women. It doesn't hurt to cut it out just to go gluten-free for a month to see if you notice a difference. Yeah. And if you want to go further, you could do like gut testing. But I would just try that out and start there. A little bit of mobility throughout the day and maybe reducing the intensity. Because here's what it looks like for someone who's really consistent with fitness like you, okay? is we tend to, you know, if over here is the most I can tolerate,

Starting point is 01:10:43 and over here is the least amount to cause positive effects, we tend to push it towards the most we could tolerate because we like it. We enjoy it. There's other benefits, mental, gets the day started, breaks up the day, or there's a component of being around your friends or whatever. And so we tend to always kind of bump up against what we can tolerate. And then maybe if you're smart, which it sounds like you are.

Starting point is 01:11:07 If you go, if you pass that, then you know, because, oh, okay, I need to take a little break. But it's only really when you step past that. But what it probably should look like is you're more over here in the middle and then sometimes you bump up against. And so you might, it might be good to go through a little season, like a three-month period of cutting gluten out and just kind of reducing the intensity.

Starting point is 01:11:28 You can isolate it. I mean, this data points the end of the day. Like, I know that cheese, you know, I have a slight intolerance of cheese. I'm not going to eliminate from my diet, but knowing that it affects me at a certain level, I can kind of navigate and know, like, what's a kind of tweak, you know, just so you know that it's a tool that you have at your disposal. How's your sleep, by the way? It's good.

Starting point is 01:11:50 It's very consistent. Oh, that's good. Seven to eight hours every night. Do you supplement? I take creatine. You don't take vitamin D, magnesium, multi. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:04 you should. Yeah, I think it's a good idea. You can go get a nutrient test if you want to get real crazy. I mean, I'd also, if you're open to it, I'd love to see you try something like a Maps 15 protocol for a little while. I think that that could be it too. You don't have to stop your sport activity and stuff that you do on the weekends. I think continue doing that. But if you were open to modifying the training during the week, running something like a Maps 15 protocol while also playing with some of the foods that we're talking about, I think would be really beneficial. Here's a thing, too, like, You know, you're active. You've been active for a long time.

Starting point is 01:12:39 You don't supplement with a multivitamin. Your calories probably aren't very high. Do you know how many calories you eat around like 1,700 to 2000? Yeah. That's pretty low for all that activity. Yeah, so you might even benefit from bumping it. But my point is, which you could play with, right? You could play with a little reverse diet and see how you feel.

Starting point is 01:12:58 But my point is you're getting, if you're not taking a high-quality multivitamin, like B vitamins, iron, magnesium, D, you know, relatively common where you're close to deficiency. You probably don't have a deficiency because you would know. You'd have like crack lips or you'd have pale skin or whatever. Yeah. But there's optimal and then there's kind of like, okay, I'm just kind of like, you're taking in 17 to 1,800 calories, which of micronutrients. And so that's not a lot of micronutrients. Also consider the context.

Starting point is 01:13:33 You're an athlete. You play sports. You lift weights. Like you're not just a regular person who's not doing anything too. So you're probably under eating for a regular person. And then on top of that, you have all that activity. It's just it's not serving. Yeah, I would go like multivitamin, vitamin D, cut gluten.

Starting point is 01:13:50 And then kind of just honestly, Ariel, if you just cut the intensity down, you don't even have to cut the workouts out. Just like go easier in the workouts. And then see how you feel after like a couple weeks. And I would be surprised. rise if all those things that it make you feel a difference. Yeah. Would you guys worry, like, for me, like, how much fat I'm eating every day? Like, is that a concern?

Starting point is 01:14:13 Only if it's too low. Yeah, exactly. Only if it's too low. You're not getting too much fat at $700. Yeah, no, not, $1,700. You're not getting too. I'd be more worried about you too low. You better be eating more than, like, 60 grams of fat a day, do you know?

Starting point is 01:14:23 I'm eating, like, 80 to 100. Oh, you're fine. Oh, you're fine. Okay. Okay. Yeah, you're fine. And then do you think, like, how much, like, I know steps are important. And like I hear you guys talk about it over and over again.

Starting point is 01:14:35 Like is that for me, like is that something? I'm so active like on my days where I'm doing stuff. Is that really important for someone like me to go outside? So it's always important to be active. But Ariel, steps are an easy proxy for activity. So when we're measuring steps, what we're really trying to do is look at activity. That's why we use steps. It's easy.

Starting point is 01:14:58 But if you're active all the time. Yeah. Like if you were, let me put it this way. becomes real of it when you're active a whole time. Yeah, like if you, if you swam all day long, but you, so no steps because you can't register that a step. Like, does that mean I got to go walk on top? No, you're active.

Starting point is 01:15:11 So if you're really active, you don't need to throw a bunch of steps on top of it. The only thing I would do is break up your sitting. Yeah. With not workouts, movement. And so it literally looks up, it looks like you stand up. Because you do a little bit of back mobility and then you sit back. I was going to sit. Because of your load back tightness, I bet 9090s would be so good for you.

Starting point is 01:15:32 to do just throughout the day. Maybe some cat cow, you know, on the ground, which you probably are familiar with the yoga. Because you said what, your midback, is that where you feel it? Your midback type? Yeah, yeah. It's all in my midback. It's kind of gnarly.

Starting point is 01:15:44 Oh, yeah, cat cow. Get on the ground. Do three minutes of cat cow with the corresponding breaths. And that'll help with that. Because you're probably also, so midback tightness oftentimes is connected to or causes. what we would label is what's called dysfunctional breathing. So especially if you're the kind of person that tends to tighten up when you're focused and concentrated or stressed, then you're not taking these full diaphragmatic breaths.

Starting point is 01:16:17 And so what happens is the thoracic spine doesn't expand. Yeah. And it kind of just tightens while you're breathing in and out. And then that tightness is what makes you feel like it needs to pop or crack. So when you get on the ground and you do cat, cow, you know, the big full breath in, breath out, move through the belly and then the chest and then out, which you've probably practiced in yoga would probably help. Yeah, that definitely hits home because this mid back tightness started whenever I stopped

Starting point is 01:16:48 doing like my whim-off exercises, I do like a full thing, like 15 minutes of breathwork every week. And I stopped doing that because I was like tired of doing it. And then that's when like my back started to get super tight after that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The fact that you know how to do that breathing, though, like just doing that with cat cow like literally every hour, two minutes. Like, don't even overdo it.

Starting point is 01:17:12 Just get down, break up the day. If I, I mean, I'd set like, since you work at home on a desk, I'd have like a little thing that just literally alarm goes off. And every time it hits, oh, I get down, do three to four sets of that while I'm breathing, get back. Are you feeling any back tightness right now? Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Starting point is 01:17:28 I bet you right now, if I had you do it. a real full breath in and breath out. I bet you'd feel a little bit of relief. Yeah, no, whenever you said that, I took a, like, a deeper breath than I was. And I was like, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:42 Yeah. That'll help a lot. Well, good. I think we found the root cause of that. Okay. But yeah, gluten and multivitamin. For someone like, if you were my client, those are the two things I would be like, let's try this.

Starting point is 01:17:54 Yeah. Would you, like, is multivitamin powder form, like good? Or would you prefer a pill? It depends on the brand. I mean, Legion. We work with Legion. I know Mike very well. I know he tests everything.

Starting point is 01:18:09 It's good. I would add an additional vitamin D on top of that. He's got a vitamin D that's great too. Yeah, so like 2,000. I is inexpensive, inexpensive supplement. You just take it every day. Yeah, go through Legion. They've got both.

Starting point is 01:18:18 Both those are great. They're multivitamin and their vitamin D with K is great. Okay. All right. Great. Thanks for calling in. Check back in with us after a month or so. I'd like to hear how things.

Starting point is 01:18:30 are going once you kind of take some of that stuff, what you took from that. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it, guys. You got it. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, a lot of people, like, the rib cage is there, in between the ribs, there's all

Starting point is 01:18:47 these different muscles. The rib cage itself expands and can shrink and your presses. And breathing deep, we know this, you breathe in deep, your chest comes out, right? Your belly comes out. and you'll stretch some of the muscles, or the muscles, should I say, relax to allow that expansion in the rib cage. And if you're taking shallow breaths,

Starting point is 01:19:07 which we don't realize, you're in a, especially if this, when I'm focused. It's deceptive, but it happens all that. When I'm really focused, like, my breathing is, I have to, like, oh, I got a breathing. Especially if you're sitting a lot, too, and it's just the switched over position.

Starting point is 01:19:19 And so what happens is all those muscles just start to, like, just tighten and stabilize and tighten. Well, that stiffness and tightness will cause this kind of low-level inflammation. If she's eating, something that she doesn't, it doesn't have to be bad, just doesn't fully agree with her. And training as much as she's doing, especially if it's intense because she's doing strength in quote unquote conditioning training in like CrossFit vibes.

Starting point is 01:19:40 Like that, the combination of all that is enough to just have this kind of low level systemic inflammation that causes just water. Because she looks like she's holding water. When I look at her, like she looks like a healthy fit girl, but she looks like she's just kind of holding water everywhere. And so that could be related more to the food or could be just this kind of, you know, low level stress and over training a little bit. Very solvable, though.

Starting point is 01:20:02 Yeah, yeah. I think if she just scaled back a bit on the intensity and maybe paid attention a little bit to some of the things in the diet, I think, and then takes the multivitamin, takes the cat-cow. I mean, that right there, she should feel a million times better. Our next caller is Austin from Indiana. What's up, ma'am? We're doing Austin.

Starting point is 01:20:18 Pretty good. How are you guys doing? Good. We're good. I'm going to pull up my notes here, just what I wrote real quick. Thank you guys for taking this. You driving, bro? Don't crash on us, Doc.

Starting point is 01:20:30 What are you doing? You're going to read your notes while you're driving? Maybe pull over. So I'm at work right now. I'm about to pull into our brush dump. Okay. But so what I got here, I'm 26. I'm a dad of two little girls.

Starting point is 01:20:43 I started this whole weight loss journey in January where I weighed 330 pounds. Yes, awful habits. Didn't work out. Didn't care to do any of that. In high school and in college, I did football. I wrestled in high school,

Starting point is 01:21:01 so I come from that athletic background. I began cutting my calories at first when I had almost zero idea of what to do to $1,500 a day, which left me obviously pretty hungry. But I was able to get down to about 265 pounds, which is where I'm at now. And that's now five days of, a week in the gym. I do chest, back, arm, legs, everything, individual. So it's four days, but I'm in the

Starting point is 01:21:35 gym five days a week. I did a TDEE calculator, and that said that for me, maintenance would be about 3,200 calories. And I felt like that, I just didn't trust it. I felt it was too high. So that's why I went down to that low number. But then I just kind of stopped making progress there. I'm really trying to hit my 200 grams of protein a day. I've been just plateaued, and I don't know how to really overcome that. You got to reverse out. First off, good job with your weight loss.

Starting point is 01:22:14 Thank you. But your calories now are so low and your activity is so high. Like, where are you going to go from here? You're going to exercise more, cut your calories more. So you put yourself in a bad position. So now what you're going to do is you're going to increase your calories. and focus on getting stronger. They'll build some muscle.

Starting point is 01:22:29 Yeah. Okay. You're actually in a very solvable, easy place for us. I mean, I'd make an adjustment on the program. I'd increase the calories, and I think you're going to see a big difference. Like, I'd get you out of a chest back arm, legs type of a split and put you on something like a MAPS antabolic routine and increase your calories by about three, 400 calories, and just focus on getting strong.

Starting point is 01:22:51 Right. So you did a good job. You knocked some body fat off, which is cool. But now it's time to build muscle. You didn't build a lot of muscle in that process. If you're eating 2,000 calories, you just drop body fat. You just, you can drop some weight, which is cool. That's fine.

Starting point is 01:23:05 But now it's time to reverse, come the other way, and focus on building muscle. Even though you may, you go, I got a lot more weight. I still want to lose. The way to the path to there is actually building muscle and building your metabolism. That's what we'll get that body, the rest of that body fat off. 2,400 calories, maps anabolic. Okay. And get stronger.

Starting point is 01:23:24 Yep. And then maybe after, I don't know, a month, go up to 2,700 calories, 2,600 calories. Keep building some muscle. Keep working your way up slowly until you get close to 3,000, which you should be able to do. Got your size with that much activity. And by the way, what's going to happen throughout that period is you're going to gain some muscle and strength. And you're going to lean out. And you'll probably lean out a little bit.

Starting point is 01:23:47 Your scale might not move a lot because we're increasing calories, which that's okay right now. But I bet you feel a different. In fact, here's a good time to just do circumference. Just literally watch your waist. Watch your waist. Add the calories. Go get strong and monitor that. I don't really care about your weight right now.

Starting point is 01:24:05 And once you're sitting at like 3,200, 3,300 calories, and you've been there for a while and you feel good and you're strong, then you want to cut. You could cut from there and watch the fat come off your body. So that number I gave you guys, that 3200 TD, EE. It's actually a good number, but you don't want to jump there from where you're at right now. Your body's now adapted to 2,000 calories. So if you do that huge jump, you're going to put on body fat.

Starting point is 01:24:32 But where it's correct is a guy your size should be eating about that many calories. But we need to work our way up there. So you want to start with like the 350 to 400 calories more, just like Sal said, build some muscle, get strong. Once you start seeing like some, you know, bench, press squat, some of those lifts go up and strength, like good strength gains and you feel good and you're not gaining any weight, then you bump the calories again. And then you kind of stay there for a little bit until you feel strength go up again and you're not seeing the scale go again, then bump the calories again.

Starting point is 01:25:01 And so you're going to stair step your way up to over 3,000 calories. That is the path, but not jumping right there. Here's how you'll mess it up. If you go, oh, cool, I got to eat more calories and then you just eat a bunch of garbage. Yeah. Right. And you don't track it and control it. That's how people tend to mess this up.

Starting point is 01:25:18 But otherwise, bro, you're going to love this. Because now you're going to eat more and you're just getting to get strong. You'll feel better. You'll feel so much better. Okay, because, I mean, there's that mental struggle for me and I know a lot of other people where I am probably stepping on the scale too much. Like, I like to check in and see how much I weigh. And since June, that number has been hovering right at the same spot.

Starting point is 01:25:43 So I'm going to try and leave the scale alone, I guess, for a little bit. Measure your waist. Wow. Measure your waist, but don't use, even waste. This is just kind of a check-in. Strength, get strong. Austin, we don't talk a lot about it on the show, but we have what's called a concierge program

Starting point is 01:26:02 where you check in with a trainer once a month. That's all you do. And they're the ones monitoring your calories, monitoring all your dimensions, and we'll constantly be kind of keeping you on the right path. If that's something you're interested in, I can have one of the trainers call you. So it's not like full-blown training,

Starting point is 01:26:18 seeing train all the time, It's not like something super expensive like that, but it's something where we're overseeing the programming and the diet part of your training throughout it. Just a guy like you that kind of knows what he's doing ex-athlet. It's not like you need all the handholding, but having someone kind of guide you and check in with you once a month is super valuable. If it's something you're interested and I can have someone call you. Definitely. Okay. Cool. And then split-wise.

Starting point is 01:26:41 So like I do three sets of 12 of, I'll do like three or four different movements each day for whatever body parts. I'm hitting. We're going to send you a program. They're going to take care of your programming too. Oh, yeah. Well, perfect. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:26:56 You just got to show up to gym, eat what they tell you to eat, stay on your path. You're going to see great results, dude. It's time to get, starting to build some muscle. Yeah, it's a whole new level for you, bro. Way more fun than what you were doing. Yeah. Awesome. All right.

Starting point is 01:27:08 Well, thank you guys very much. You got it, man. All right, brother. Thanks. Bye. I love that we had this right now because I just want people to realize the power of metabolic adaptation. You have a guy that's almost six foot tall, 265 working out a lot. It looks like he has a physical job. If I had to guess, he has a physical job just by the call and the

Starting point is 01:27:30 driving and stuff. So you got a big dude moving that much and he can't lose any more weight on 2,000 calories. That's a metabolic adaptation. And here's what would happen if he cut down to 1,500 calories. He'd lose a couple more pounds. He'd lose muscle. And he'd feel like garbage. And his testosterone will be in the floor. And then here's what would happen from there. He'd be like, this sucks. And then he'd gain all the way to go right back. That's right.

Starting point is 01:27:53 Yep. Our next caller is Stacy from Kentucky. Hi, Stacy. How you doing, Stacy? What's happening? Hi. Thank you all for taking my questions. I really appreciate it.

Starting point is 01:28:02 How can we help you? Well, so I've just started recently listening to your podcast. The very first podcast I heard was when you all had Dr. Dr. Mary Claire Haver. Yeah. With you all. Awesome. And then here recently, I listened to a podcast back in August, and you all gave a quick two to three day workout information that you could do for 30 minutes at home.

Starting point is 01:28:29 Yep. So that's the one, that's the program that I've been following. I started in September. So I have two questions based off that program. The first one is, so right now I've been kind of using 15 pounds for the exercises. How do I know when to switch up to a higher weight? It gets easy. Yeah, you want to challenge yourself.

Starting point is 01:28:53 Right. You don't want your form, excuse me, you don't want to compromise your form, but you want the challenge to be there because that's what gets the body stronger and more fit is the challenge. So if you've been using 15s and at first it was hard and now you're like, I can do this really easy, then you probably want to go heavier or do more reps. Okay. Especially if you get 18 form. Okay.

Starting point is 01:29:13 So the next, so when I start in November, I do the eight reps. So that would probably be a good time to go ahead and switch to the higher weight. Yep. Yep. Also, keep in mind, Stacy, too. It was my client said I'm trying to really push strength, right? And we're trying to focus on this. If our goal we're doing, let's say, 10 reps on this set and I'm encouraging you, come on.

Starting point is 01:29:34 Let's lift more weight. And you're like, I don't know, that 25 seems like a lot out of them. I'm like, let's just do it. And if you stopped at eight, it's not the end of the world. In fact, I would rather see you. try and challenge yourself with a heavy weight, realize, oh, wow, I couldn't even get 10 out, then to always choose a weight that you definitely could get 10 with. It's totally okay if we fall short one or two reps when we're trying to focus on building strength. That's a better sign

Starting point is 01:29:59 than picking a weight that you can always get 10. That's totally okay. Yep. Okay, perfect. And then the second kind of question I have is I am a postmenopausal woman. So I know that's kind of your all's area, too. And I'm trying to get rid of the, the menopausal belly. And I've heard conflicting reports prior to when I emailed you all about adding intense aerobic exercise. So should I or should I just keep with working out the two to three days a week, go with the 8,000 steps and just increase my activity?

Starting point is 01:30:39 Yes. Yeah, you're doing great. Listen, you just started in September. Correct. And what do you, would you do before that? Did you do any exercise, anything like that? I was mostly just walking. You're doing great. Yeah. And I'm looking at your email. You have three kids. You're a teacher. So you work. Correct. You work and you got kids. Hold your kids. 22, 20, and 14. Okay. So you got a teenager at home. That's really stressful. Yes. Oh, yes. No, you're kids. Their dogs are two. Yeah, they can. You're kicking butt. You're doing really well. You are.

Starting point is 01:31:11 You don't quite don't, here's the deal. When you're doing the strength training, the goal is to get stronger. So think like that. So let me challenge and see if I can get stronger. 8,000 steps a day is beautiful. If you want to bump it to 10,000 at some point, that's great. Above 15,000, not necessary typically. That's a lot.

Starting point is 01:31:31 I think 8 to 10,000 are you doing good. It says here you're tracking protein and fiber. Awesome. Yes. Are you sticking to whole natural foods? For the most part, yes. Yeah. You're doing great.

Starting point is 01:31:41 And I'm going to guess right now because it's been a short period of time. You probably already feel a lot better. Oh, yes. Yeah. Energy's better. You're probably sleeping better, better libido. Your husband's probably commenting on your body changing already. Yes.

Starting point is 01:31:56 Yeah, you're doing great. Don't question it. Yeah. Yeah. Stick with the point. I don't need to add anything. Just keep going. Keep moving.

Starting point is 01:32:02 You're doing great. I can send you a program that I think would be. Now you work out at home. You have dumbbells? Is that what you got? Yes, I do. Yes. Do you have a physio ball at home?

Starting point is 01:32:11 I do not. They're super inexpensive. Let me send you a map starter. Okay. With that, you just need dumbbells and a physio ball. And now you've got a much better program program. So it's got phases. It's got exercise.

Starting point is 01:32:27 It's got demos in there. So you can click on it, watch the video. That's the program I want you to follow. Get yourself a physical ball and you're set. Stacey, are you on Facebook? Do you have a Facebook account? I do. Okay.

Starting point is 01:32:38 I'm going to have Doug put you in our private forum also because we, You got all of our trainers are in there. So if you got a question, just like you asked us today, you got a question or you're questioning anything that you're doing, posted in there, and one of those trainers will get back to you and make sure you stay. But you're doing great right now. Let me just encourage you some more. By the way, what grade do you teach?

Starting point is 01:32:58 Actually, I teach gifted education, so I do K through 12. Oh, good for you. So, you know, you're teaching kids. If you can get a kid to write, that's good. but if you can get a kid to love writing, that's better. Okay. Right. The most important thing, Stacey, for you because you're new on this journey.

Starting point is 01:33:16 The most important thing of all the things that we're talking about is that you develop a relationship with this where you like it, you enjoy it, and you want to keep doing it. Okay. I do. And that's why I love your all's two to three day program because it fits perfectly in my schedule. Yeah. And the reason why I'm saying this is what happens sometimes is you start seeing some stuff happen and oh my God and then maybe you start to question it.

Starting point is 01:33:38 and then it's like, no, I want to push it and I want to, I just want to get better and results. And you start doing things you don't like as much or things you can't maintain consistently. And now you're going down a path of this is not something you're going to maintain. So just, just think relationship and be like, do I like this? Am I enjoying it? Am I having fun? Am I feeling good? You know, do I feel like I'm getting healthier?

Starting point is 01:33:59 If that's all true, just keep going. And you're crushing. You keep hitting that protein and fiber and keep trying to get strong. That's going to serve you a lot. That's right. Yep. Perfect. Thank you all.

Starting point is 01:34:08 Doing great. We'll send that over to you. Okay, perfect. Thanks. You got it. I'm so happy we captured her so early. Yeah, yeah. Good timing.

Starting point is 01:34:18 Yes. Very good timing. She got on with us. She's moving in the right direction. The only way she would mess up is if she suddenly just went, tried to go crazy with everything. Game busters. Yeah. And then that tends to just crush is consistent.

Starting point is 01:34:33 It's like I'm not going to be consistent because I hate this. So she's doing the right thing. Our next caller is Kevin from Alberta. What's up, Kevin? How you doing Kevin? Hey guys, good to see you again. Yeah, man. What's happening?

Starting point is 01:34:44 Not much. Just like last time, just finished training. So feeling good. All right, dude. How can we help you? So I have been over the last few years working with a couple different personal trainers, mostly remotely. And then through work, I started using chat GPT quite heavily.

Starting point is 01:35:01 And I kind of recognize the opportunity to switch for my remote training to use chat GPT as my trainer. So I've been experimenting with that for about eight weeks now. I'm in the first block that chat designed for me. And I wanted to reach out and get your thoughts on what blind spots I might have. What am I potentially missing in using chat as my trainer versus, you know, an experienced live trainer? Yeah, dude.

Starting point is 01:35:30 The prompting is going to be everything. Yeah. How well you prompt it with whatever little nagging injuries. you have like your level of stress. I've seen people do this really well and then seen other people do it not so well. So that has a lot to do with probably how it's spitting off for you. Tell me what you got so far. Sal thinks you're working with Satan, but go ahead and tell you.

Starting point is 01:35:53 You're a trainer to your species, dude. What the hell? What's going on here? So what I found that's really great about it is I can screenshot everything from my Garmin app. So my HRV, my training stats, my sleep score. all of that and upload it, my training profile lift volumes, this and that. And obviously I could do it 24-7. And if I do have an injury, I can just go, hey, chat, tweak my QL this week.

Starting point is 01:36:21 Can you suggest a modified version of day three? So like literally 24-7, but it is super unreliable if your prompts suck. So I'll say give me a weekly summary of my training to date and it'll give me the wrong week or it'll miscount my lifting sessions. So you really got to police it. That's what I've experienced. But I'm just curious what else you might be thinking. Well, Kevin, okay, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Starting point is 01:36:46 You sound like an experienced, motivated fitness enthusiasts. I'd say so, yeah. Yeah, and it says you're a BJJ athlete. How long have you been doing jiu-jitsu and competing? About eight years. Eight years. And have you always been active and working out? This is like a lifelong thing?

Starting point is 01:37:03 Earlier in my life, I was super active. then there was like a 10-year period where I sat at a desk and got fat. And then in mid-40s, I got back into it. Okay. ChatGBT or information tools in general are great for people who are hyper-motivated. They enjoy looking at this kind of stuff. They break things down. And really what they need is just good information or a way to take metrics and distill them down into advice that would potentially

Starting point is 01:37:34 find holes or modify programming to small degrees to make changes. That's what it's good for. What it's not good for is for somebody who would benefit from working with a coach. And that's the relationship side of it. So you've been doing jiu-jitsu for a while, eight years. I'm assuming you're what, purple, brown-black? Are you brown-bell? Okay.

Starting point is 01:37:56 So are you teaching anybody yet? Not really, no. But you've got some good coaches that have taught you. Definitely. Now, the difference between a great coach and a coach that just knows moves is the relationship. It's the, like, it makes it all the, it's like having a good coach in sports or a good teacher in school or a good trainer. It's that relationship aspect. And that just does everything because humans are relationship beings.

Starting point is 01:38:20 It's not a good coach or a good trainer. There's a lot of things that make up a good coach or trainer. A part of it is the right information. So you definitely got to know what you're doing. But that's like the bar. That's the bottom. That's like the bar. Like at least got to have good information.

Starting point is 01:38:35 You don't have that get out of the, don't do this anymore. But way above that is their ability to coach people and work with people. So that's the big difference. But if you're the kind of guy, you love it, you're motivated, you like to break things down, plug things in. You analyze it. You don't, you know, you don't need or believe there's value for you and having a coach, then you're doing great. I mean, staying in that vein, right? This is the way I would make this decision of you is based off what he just said, is like,

Starting point is 01:39:02 these coaches that you're hiring are they basically just spitting you off diets and workout plans? And that's the extent of their coaching. Then what you're doing is probably better going to chat. But if you have got a coach who's given you more insight than that and you have some sort of a relationship with them where you're like, oh shit. I mean, when I look back at my training career, very, very small percentage of it, I would say, was the... Like 10%. Yeah, well, just small percentage of this was the actual, my knowledge. around macros and programming.

Starting point is 01:39:34 The rest of it was really my ability to help these people through life. You know, in fact, I felt more like a therapist than I really did a trainer, right? And so I think that's what made me good at my craft or my job was I had that ability to do that and mold that conversation to every person I helped. The getting the answer to the macros or the science part of it, I mean, we're in a place now with chat, GBT, that they can figure that out. So if your coach isn't giving you another level of that, that you feel that, then I think what you're doing with your knowledge and background is fine.

Starting point is 01:40:05 Yeah, if they're going to get into more personal level of like asking you more questions, you wouldn't even have thought to ask. I think that's, you know, where you can get the human element there where, again, to the point of stress and relationships and outside effects and factors. I mean, you can get all the data points and aggregate that, and that's helpful. But I think, too, to troubleshoot with a human, And I think it's just so far like chat GBT's, I think, like, not quite there yet. When it comes to programming, humans are still going to outperform chat GBT.

Starting point is 01:40:43 I'm sure that'll change at some point. But a human isn't always going to validate everything. Chat GPD as of right now tends to do that. So it's not going to say to you, hey, Kevin. It's not going to tell you you're wrong. Yeah, it's not going to say to you, hey, man, I think you're a little obsessive. You need to take a little break. or this doesn't seem mentally healthy.

Starting point is 01:41:01 Like, it's just going to be like, yeah, dude. You just wants to solve things for you. Yeah, so like, give you hard facts. Right. And as of right now, the best programming still comes from humans. So you're still, Olympic coaches are still human. You know, they're still the best. And they know the questions to ask. And they also understand psychology, reading the client and what's going on.

Starting point is 01:41:20 So there's that. But if you want information and you want something that aggregates data and great for that. And spits it out, like, that's great. In fact, the best coaches are using AI in that capacity to supplement what they're doing. That makes perfect sense. In fact, thinking about this call today, I was actually thinking what would be ideal would be some sort of hybrid model where you had a coach for your strategic vision. But you use chat GPT like I am for your daily back and forth.

Starting point is 01:41:51 Yeah. Yeah, no, 100%. Yeah, that's right. But I mean, I think this great, the takeaway I would take from this conversation is to like really evaluate. the people that you are coaching with and ask yourself, are they giving me that that other level of coaching and training that that chat GPT just can't do? But it sounds like you're getting a lot of that.

Starting point is 01:42:08 What's the goal, Kevin, for you? Is this for high level competition? Is that what you're doing? So, yeah, I go to Worlds every couple of years. So that's there. But as I'm aging, it's honestly more about keeping up with the young guys at the gym. I'm starting to lose the desire to compete frequently. And I just want to be able to perform on a weekly basis.

Starting point is 01:42:28 Yeah, yeah, yes. I mean, you're, I think you're using it fine. I think if you really want to do well at your sport, nothing's going to be better than you working with an older, more experienced jiu-jitsu fighter who's competed and gone through all that. You're not going to get that, at least not now, from AI. Also, I mean, the other thing that, like, we were, like, if you and I were working together, like, I'm also asking questions. You're probably not even prompted. talking about like, I'm going to ask you about your family. I don't know if you have kids, you're married, where like that. And like, there's going to be times when the algorithm tells you you can do X, Y, Z. And I'm going to tell you the opposite. I'm going to say, you know what, bro, you need to go take a day off and go spend some time with your wife. Or you need to go do this.

Starting point is 01:43:12 Even though, you know, based off of your rest, all these things, you could go hammer this. But the relationship I've built with you, I know you really well now. And I know, okay, I know that you could go do this, but I think this is going to serve you in life. But you know what I'm saying? Like that type of. And just to add that's a cherry on top of that. You compete in a world, so you are high level. Okay.

Starting point is 01:43:32 The different, you know this. I don't need to tell you this, but I'm going to say it anyway, just for people listening. At that level, when people are competing at that level, the difference isn't who trains. They all train. The difference isn't who takes it seriously. Everybody takes it seriously. Everybody's got decent genetics at that level. The difference is the psychology.

Starting point is 01:43:51 The best of the best, their mindset is different. So when you look at the top level, they work with these sports psychologists who get better performance out of them. They didn't even change their training or diet necessarily. It was all the psychology of it also. Just to add to that, you know. I got to clarify. I go to World Masters.

Starting point is 01:44:08 So a little less than World. That's still legit, bro. It's still a high level, dude. I did Jiu-Jitsu. I know what that's still high level. Thanks. Well, I appreciate it. I think the one thing I'd add for anyone else considering what I am is chat GPT also is the

Starting point is 01:44:25 yes man. So you'll say, hey, I feel like I should be doing this or that. And it's like, you're absolutely right. Yes. No, it's just a validation machine. This is why it's in some states they're making it illegal to use for therapy because it's a terrible therapeutic advice. Did you hear the episode?

Starting point is 01:44:40 I actually shared a story just recently where I kind of got into it with a, you know, family member of mine because they used it before coming to me and it was like related to like nutrition hormone advice. And the advice that it responded, it was just like, well, yeah, it's because you prompted it to kind of give you that answer. And so it gave you that. Like I could also flip it and tell me, like, tell me all the negative things of not taking testosterone and you see a whole host of bad thing. So it's like people don't, I think people haven't figured this part out yet. It sounds like you are. Like you're playing with it enough to realize like, oh yeah, it'll, it'll validate whatever

Starting point is 01:45:12 you want it to so long as you prompt it in that manner of, you know, give me the three things best. Well, it's like, well, what if that's not best for you right now? What if taking it, like, it's not going to. So that's the part, I think, that people are going to have a hard realization when they start to depend on chat GPT. Yeah, awesome. Very cool. I agree. Yep.

Starting point is 01:45:30 Awesome. Well, thanks, guys. I really appreciate you taking the time and love the show. Keep going. Right on, Kevin. Thanks, bro. Take care. I got to say this.

Starting point is 01:45:38 Like, imagine having a friend that you ask advice from and what the friend is most concerned with is if you like them. Yeah. You being happy. You know, you just, they're just, no, you got to like me. So I'm going to say what I think. whatever it is you want to hear. It is so that you like me.

Starting point is 01:45:56 That's a terrible friend. I want a friend that's going to say to me what's going to make me maybe, maybe mad at them, but it's the right thing to say. Yes. And you need that. Well, that's my point of like, if I know him, right?

Starting point is 01:46:06 Like I don't have no idea if he was married kids or that. And all the markers, sleep, volume, nutrition says he could go crush it in the gym tomorrow. And I know that he hasn't taken a time with his wife to go have dinner with her in the last 30 days. And I know how important. and his relationship and marriage is,

Starting point is 01:46:24 and I know that he's communicated to me, that he values that. I'm going to go, hey, bro, I know today's a great day to go kill it, but this is what you need to go do. And even though he doesn't maybe want to hear that, and it's like, you're not going to get that from prompting chat GVT.

Starting point is 01:46:39 It's going to give you exactly how you prompted the workout that you're asking it. Look, you like the show? Come find us on Instagram. We'll see you. It's at Mind Pump media. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body,

Starting point is 01:46:49 dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your over the overall, overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at Mind Pumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic, nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbondle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as you're doing.

Starting point is 01:47:22 Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now, plus other valuable free resources at Mind Pumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump. Thank you.

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2731: The Ultimate Muscle Building Diet (Without Getting Fat)

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