Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2806: The BEST form of Strength Training for Women is Powerlifting. Challenge Me!

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

Mind Pump Fit Tip: The BEST form of Strength Training for Women is Powerlifting. Challenge Me! (3:01) Giving Drew Canole his flowers. (36:30) Greatest flex's meeting people for the first time. (43:05) Switching out soda for OilPop. (49:26) The gym is the best environment to help you get out of your comfort zone (51:39) #ListenerCoaching call #1 – Bert from FL: Building muscle based on an app's calorie recommendations and training advice. (58:29) #ListenerCoaching call #2 – Latasha from TN: Programming questions and how to move to a more intuitive eating mindset. (1:13:05) #ListenerCoaching call #3 – Alexandra from NY: Struggling with binge eating and my relationship to food in general. (1:26:49) #ListenerCoaching call #4 – Joe from TX: Should I skip leg day? (1:42:48) Related Links/Products Mentioned Get Coached by Mind Pump, live! Visit: https://www.mplivecaller.com  Visit Organifi for the exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Code MINDPUMP at checkout for 20% off** Visit OliPop for the exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Get a FREE can of OLIPOP: Buy any 2 cans of OliPop in store, and we'll pay you back for one! Works on any flavor, any retailer. ** March Spring Sale: Symmetry ($187), Prime ($107), Advanced Training Techniques Guide ($47) all for $147! (Over 50% off!) Visit: www.mapsmarch.com  Mind Pump Store Mind Pump #2180: Is Powerlifting Beneficial for Women? Mind Pump #2265: Why Powerlifting is Better Than Bodybuilding Becoming a Supple Leopard, 2nd Edition: The Ultimate Guide to Resolving Pain, Preventing Injury, and Optimizing Athletic Performance Mind Pump #2632: Supplement Wizard & Organifi Founder Drew Canole Visit Our Place for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Code MINDPUMP at checkout to receive 10% off sitewide. 100-day trial with free shipping and returns. ** Mind Pump # 2690: The NEW DIET Everyone Is Using For Fat Loss Mind Pump # 2560: How to Break Free from Destructive Body Image Issues Mind Pump Concierge Coaching (Only 50 spots open) Visit: www.mindpumpconcierge.com  Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources People Mentioned Justin Brink DC (@dr.justinbrink) Instagram Kelly Starrett (@thereadystate) Instagram Layne Norton, PhD (@biolayne) Instagram Drew Canole (@drewcanole) Instagram Ben Greenfield (@bengreenfieldfitness) Instagram Paul Chek (@paul.chek) Instagram Aubrey Marcus (@aubreymarcus) Instagram Lewis Howes (@lewishowes) Instagram Elliott Hulse (@elliotthulse) Instagram Aaron Alexander (@aaronalexander) Instagram  

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mugs, or training gear over at MindPumpStore.com. I'm talking right now, hit pause, head on over to Mind Pumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. The best form of strength training for women, for most women, the vast majority of women, is powerlifting. Challenge me, I dare you. Ooh, powerlifting for me. I want to make, I'm going to say bodybuilding, bro.

Well, let me tell you where I came from. Okay. And then I think this would be a good discussion. No. Sorry, guys. I mean, somebody out there is saying that. Sure. Sure. So let's say, I mean, it's a great discussion. So I ran into a friend of mine at the gym this morning. And she's relatively new to strength training. So she hasn't been doing this for years. It's been less than a year. She's been getting fit, getting into it, tracking macros, the whole thing. And I walked by her working out. Okay. So she's bench pressing. And like I said, she's relatively new. She has like 135 pounds on the bar. So I walk by, I see her, I say hi to her. I do in a set and then I'm registering. in my head like, what is that?

Like, someone needs to tell her she's really strong, you know? So I go over to her and I talk to her. I'm like, have you ever thought about power lifting? She's like, no. I'm like, I think that, I mean, you have a gift. Oh, she's not even a power lifter. No. No, no, she's just working out on her own.

In fact, she worked out with a trainer for a little while. Like, this is totally new to her. Wow. So then I'm thinking about it. And, you know, powerlifting is so good for women in particular for a few different reasons. Number one, of all of the strength sports, and there's other ones that are that are like this, but power lifting's not,

it's very not body image focused. It's very much not focused on how you look. Right. Which benefits a lot of people, but especially women. Yeah, it redirects it more to strength. Yeah, and they're constantly told that their value is how they look

and they pursue fitness for the look. I know this is true for men as well, but women are especially hammered with this message. That's all about how you look. Then number two, it's about getting strong and it's hard to starve yourself and under-eat and over-trained and over-cardio. It doesn't move the needle.

You're not getting stronger. So if you're focused on powerlifting and getting stronger, that tends to correct a lot of those other things. And then lastly, I was thinking about community. And I'm thinking, you know, here's this young woman. She's getting into fitness. She's starting to lift weights. What a great community to be a part of. It's so supportive.

It's like one of the community. It's one of the best communities I've ever witnessed where you could be old, young, you could be a beginner, you could be objectively strong, objectively not strong. And everybody is like, you could do it. This is awesome. And it's just like really supportive. So when I combine that with some of the struggles

that women tend to be uniquely challenged with, I think like this is a great, I don't think it's the be all end all, but I think it's the best. So this is an interesting argument. So if we were to take like the three like most popular, like CrossFit, powerlifting and bodybuilding. Yeah.

and you were to take, so let's just say we're going to argue those three. And then we're going to say things like, like you said, body image, strength, community, sculpting the body, community. And we were to take each one. I wouldn't give, yeah, longevity. Yeah, you got to think of everything. Yeah, actually, right? Right.

Right. So longevity, I think that absolutely should be in there. So if those are like the main attributes that we're seeking, then I don't think that powerlifting wins in the community. Department. I think CrossFit wins in the community department. So I think they beat them. They definitely have a great community. You can make an argument. Oh, yeah. I definitely have a great. As much as

none of us here are pro, big crossways. That was their big sell. Yeah. And I mean, it's very obvious to me. Like almost everybody I've ever tried to talk out of CrossFit, that's the number one really one. That's fervorous. Yeah, they're like, I love my community. I love people there. And normally

that's what I would normally go, hey, we'll keep doing it then. Just try and modify this and I try and modify things. so I think they win there longevity I think bodybuilding wins I agree you know so I also think bodybuilding wins on

sculpting now body image wins for power lifting for sure like because and and the way you presented it I think that's a fair argument because in our experience you know I think especially women I think get marketed to and have been marketed to for a very long

time, this, you know, skinny, petite. Yeah, be smaller. Yeah, be smaller look. I think that's changing. I think, and I actually credit CrossFit for a lot of that because I think you started to see these women with like shape and strength to them that has gotten, I think being a strong or a muscle mommy has become more popular. But if you ask, I mean, I don't know.

Now, if I could take the competition out of all three of them. So no powerlifting competition, no crossfit competition, but just the style of training, I go bodybuilding all day. Because I definitely think that the competition of bodybuilding would lose for me for the diet aspect. Yeah. Because you mean the body image. Body image and the diet aspect, both. You create such a bad relationship with food, with the having to track every single macro and diet to an extreme that you don't feel good even when you're working. out, you have to push beyond that to get up on stage and present and actually win.

So I think if you take the competition out of it and just say, hey, I'm going to train a bodybuilder style. I would argue that that is the number one. Well, so here's where I'll actually disagree with you. And I think it's going to be in a way that's going to surprise you. I'm thinking of the community and less of the competition, like a powerlifting gym, not necessarily competing or a CrossFit gym or a bodybuilding gym. but the competition puts a whole other

whole other spin. Yeah, and they all have that. But diet-wise, bodybuilding lifestyle, you learn the most about diet. Now, if it's body-image-focused, that could go in a wrong direction. But people who body-build and train in that way for years, they know diet. Powerlifters, you don't know diet.

No, you can get away. They don't know energy. On powerlifting, so long as you're well-fed, you can perform. In fact, that's the bottom line. In fact, the criticisms in the opposite is that they go and eat too much garbage or whatever. Right, right, right. Because they realize that, man, when they're super filled up with glycogen and full on calories, they lift really good.

Before the wellness space, it was the bodybuilding space that understood wellness. They were the first ones to talk about gluten and sugar and processed food versus a... It was actually bodybuilders that were talking about this stuff. I mean, there's videos of Gaspari. Rich Gaspari, he's like a bodybuilder in the 80s. who was talking about like gluten and how that affected, you know, water retention on his body and processed.

This is back in the 80s. If you said gluten in the 80s anywhere, people would have thought he made up a word. Nobody even knew what that was, for example. So I think for diet, understanding, bodybuilding crushes all of them. In terms of supportive community, I'll go with powerlifting.

Here's another thing, though, the powerlifting's not good at is the power lifting movements, as great as they are, severely limiting. Way limited. Severely limiting. Even more limited than bodybuilding.

Whoa. Well, the longevity, too, it's pretty slim. But I do feel like it just destroys all of them in terms of base level strength and like starting point. That's right. So I would make an argument. We start there. I know you can make an argument for bodybuilding in terms of filling your muscles.

But for me, overall output matters most. And then we can build and tweak and sculpt, you know, from there. Well, the irony of all this. in my opinion is that none of us are making the argument for CrossFit. Yet I think if CrossFit

was done in a non-com competitive type of format, the type of exercise. Then it'd be functional fitness. It would be the most, it would be, exactly. Well, that's where the term came from.

It would be, it would be the most functional and it would be the most beneficial of longevity because of, I mean, throwing and the different planes you move in and sled dragging and jumping and like so many skills.

Yeah, if you take the extreme, intensity aspect of the culture. It became dysfunctional fitness. But if you take the ethos of CrossFit, like the baseline ethos is physical performance balance. Do you have stamina? Do you have

strength? Do you have power? Do you have movement? CrossFit from there, they crush. They do great with that. Whereas power lifting is very limited. Bodybuilding, not as limited, but also limited. But I will say this. Functional.

training has its roots in bodybuilding. Now people are going to be like, what? Bodybuilders didn't come at it from the same perspective. They weren't thinking functional. They were thinking symmetry, balance, and aesthetics. Yeah. So they always had an, their mentality was always don't have a part of my body that is underdeveloped or not in balance with the others.

Right. Now, they didn't have a full understanding of what that meant, but their understanding is what led to this idea of, oh, I got to train all these different ways. Powerlifting is very limited. I mean, you're three lifts. And then everything else is to get better at those three lifts. It's very sagittal plane. And if you pursue it for too long with too high of focus, injury becomes.

Yeah, I feel like bodybuilding stumbles across functional training because of trying to hit different angles. That's right. And so it's like, you know, they find their way into these body positions that are very functional. you know, eventually, but it's still very focused on like, where can I feel and squeeze and get a different, you know, aspect of the muscle to grow and develop. Totally. But you want to talk about community. Like, Matt, like, go into a bot, like today, a bodybuilding gym.

Imagine, like, the person I'm thinking of the avatar is a woman who wants to get fit. Going to a bodybuilding gym, a powerlifting gym or a CrossFit gym. You know, the powerlifting, you think of the average woman is going to have this community. community and the style of training that's going to move her the furthest away from these roadblocks that women tend to run into. CrossFit can do the same thing, but CrossFit, I don't think is as effective as powerlifting, because there's an element of CrossFit. No, not at all. I don't think, like intensity, sweat. I think it's last place for the, for the, for the three of those. But bodybuilding's got this like, like this environment of

like, look at yourself. Yeah. I mean, I'm 100% I lose that argument all day. I know I do. Like that's, that's the problem with bodybuilding is it's so much focused on image. And since I think most our clients, I mean, we spent most of our career still to this day. I mean, it's why we don't use transformation photos for the business. Yep. Is we've stuck our ground or stood our ground for a very long time on trying to get the average person to get away from measuring their success purely off of how they look. Yes, I get it. I told it.

Of course I get it. But if that's your main focus, the average person, it drives you in the wrong direction. And so, and it ends up 90% of the time ends up being an unhealthy addiction or issue or body image issue. And so for that reason, I think power lifting lays one of the best bases. So if I like, I have a fresh young lady who is not, doesn't know any of that. She's super fresh. Doesn't know any of the fresh to lifting weights

Fresh to lifting weights. Fresh to lifting weights. So, you know, and has no idea what those modalities are. Right. And I have the opportunity to introduce her

to one of the three. It makes the most sense to introduce. And also for another reason, too, to power lifting to get your argument, back up your argument, is it simplifies. It's like these three lifts

will take you so far. and there are so fundamental to any, like, let's say you wanted to go do CrossFit later, or you wanted to do Bodybuilding later. That's a nice starting point. It's a great starting point. It's like why take you right into bodybuilding and have you doing, you know, side tricep presses and doing weird things that like to hit an angle and you can really quickly get caught up and all that minutia.

Or why I throw you into CrossFit right away and you're already doing baseball throws and these other things. It's just like, hey, go squat, you know, go bench, go deadlift. go learn like these basic fundamental movements that you're going to get some great functionality from that. You're going to get incredible strength from that. You're going to get some great aesthetics from that. And then we can build off of that. Yeah.

I mean, it's hard too because we're kind of not highlighting a lot of the benefits like CrossFit brings because it's not a great representation of that side of pursuit. If I'm trying to be more movement focused, I'm trying to be like skill specific. like what can I build and develop what you know my abilities um you know they they don't segment it and so like training itself for me this is where i always have like the biggest criticism because it's like where i lean like if i was to pick out of the three of them i'd probably lean more on the crossfit side of the fence however it's just it doesn't uh i don't program it anywhere near you know the same way that they do because it's when you're building and developing skill you have to have that

kind of focused attention and specificity, which is very much lacking on that. You know, and again, this is very community-based, so it's like everybody's kind of like in the trenches together. That's the problem is that it's still class-based. That's also the plus. That's also the plus. Right.

I mean, I have a good friend of mine, Chuck. You guys know Chuck. And I tease him all the time. I have tons of cross friends. Because it's brutal. I mean, it's so funny, by the way. We tease each other, right? So I annoy him on purpose.

I will send, so he's a pastor. I love sending him conspiratorial, like end of times, like preachings. Like, bro, check this out. The signs are here. He gets so mad because he's a theologian, right? He's like, no, that's not with the theological. So he'll get, like, I could tell he's being calm but annoyed with me. Yes.

And then meanwhile, he'll send me stuff that he's doing. And I'm like, bro, dude, why did you do that? Party of workout? Like, he'll send me a picture of his hands with his hand torn, you know, part of it torn off. I'm like, you think that's like a good workout that that happened? But my point with it is when we all, when we stop teasing each other and we're just, you know, brass tacks, he's like, I love the, I love the friendships that I've made there. Yeah. And I've never felt so encouraged.

Yeah. You know, I feel so encouraged. Everybody's like supportive. It's a great community. And I'm like, you know what? You can't downplay that because he and he would tell you, be the first one to tell you that his relationship with fitness, his whole life was on and off. It was never consistent. It was either go run like crazy, lose a bunch of weight, then stop and then eat like crazy.

This is the first time he's ever been super consistent. And it has nothing to do with the programming. It has zero to do with that. Has everything to do with that he's been a part of this great community. And from a fitness professionals perspective, CrossFit nailed this so hard. They nailed this so well that they went from nothing to being dominant in a very short period of time in a space where you're you see very little of that. You see very little, like big,

to the point where normal gyms, big box gyms, change their floor plans because of CrossFit. They literally added and changed things because they're influenced. So that part right there. Huge falloff,

huge falloff though. Big fall off, but what stuck around with the good parts of it. I think what you're saying is a lot of the stuff that Justice talked about. Okay, so let's imagine this for a second because this would be a fun experiment.

You're going to take this fresh person, Justin, for you. This is fresh, so clean. What's a better, what's a for last? A better word. A new. Yeah, a brand new. Sparkly.

Yeah. Well, brand new. What I mean by, like, never trained any modality. Yeah, I know. And we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna take them through all three. Oh, yeah. So they have to go all three. Or they're gonna go through all three.

Okay. How am I going to order it? And then what am I gonna coach telling them as you go through the journey? So I know that they're eventually gonna make it through all three. And I want them to get the most out of each one of them. these things and what they have to offer, but also be weary of these. So what a cool, because here's what I, because as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about all of us have experience in all three of these.

Just and I probably did a little more CrossFit stuff than you did, but we all have experience in all these. And so, I think the best is knowing the best of all of it and knowing how to individualize it for you. Oh, no doubt. No doubt. So imagine somebody who's, imagine a young or soon-to-be fitness enthusiast is like, well, I want, I want to learn.

Where would they start? Where do we start? What are you telling them? What are you coaching them about that as they're going through that first one? Then where do you tell them to go second and why? And what are you coaching and telling them to look out for? And then third and final. I have a pretty initial strong opinion that I think I could support pretty well.

So I would start with powerlifting. Okay. Because you're learning the basic big lifts. You're also focus is off how I look. It's focused on performance. It's focused on strength. I have no focus on diet aside from making sure I'm eating enough to get strong, which is actually a good place to start.

Then I would move to CrossFit, a good community, so a good CrossFit gym, so I can learn more movements, I can have fun with the community, I can push myself with stamina in different ways. I didn't with powerlifting. You also are going to pick up a tremendous amount of mobility. Mobility. And then diet now is getting a little bit more advanced. And I'm getting more with my diet in terms of, okay, what makes me feel good,

what's giving me a little bit more stamina? I can't be bloated like I did before when I was just squatting and deadlifting. Now I got to like think about that a little bit. And then the end I would go bodybuilding because by this point I've built a solid, secure foundation with strength training. I understand performance. I've been doing this long enough where I'm not so jaded or so easily affected by the mirror and by the scale.

Right. And now I can learn anatomy. I can get way more detail with diet. It's not going to take me over. And then bodybuilding, let's face it, like that style of training will take you to the end of your life. Whereas CrossFit and Power Lively, you'll probably have to stop. So that's interesting. So would you go that way? I'm curious. Well, because I can argue a little bit different. Like, the nutrition part, I think, is why I probably would agree with that format.

But like if we kind of, if I took them to powerlifting and then we went to bodybuilding, I feel like we could focus more on muscle activation. And I could get a little more familiar in terms of, you know, unilateral type of focus, like body awareness. It's more like hypertrophy. If you look at it more from like an OPT model, let's say, like we're building our base level strength. Now we're like adding in like hypergrophy is like this is now we're building the muscles up and developing.

And then expressing them. Now we're expressing at the peak. Because to me, CrossFit is a very small, like just like you would, like the pinnacle of your training. You're going for power. You're going for high risk. Yeah. So I look at it as high risk training.

So I'm not going to go to high risk until... Good argument. That's a really good programming argument. That is a really good argument. In fact, I was going to agree with Sal until you said that because that is such a great argument. I can see that. Because I would want this person to... But the nutrition kind of messes to death.

No, you're right. Well, and what I agree with Sal, which is funny because you see how this started was you made the case that, you know, powerlifting being the place for the female client. to me, and I made the argument for bodybuilding. I agree with your pathway, and then guess what? Body build for the rest of your life now. Yeah. Like you have the, you have, you've now got a great base strength. Yeah.

You've now learned all the mobility, moving in different planes, unilateral stuff. You got all the great stuff that CrossFit has, endurance training, all the great stuff that CrossFit has to offer. Now go spend the rest of your life in bodybuilding and just incorporate those other things, whatever you want to and need to, and you're set for life, in my opinion.

Yeah. But from a programming perspective, Justin makes a great argument. Yeah. CrossFit's the ultimate expression. It is. It requires the most. And high risk, because not only are you doing explosive type movements,

you're also pairing them together and running them in for time. You have to have really good body awareness. Yeah, which puts you in super high risk. And so for that reason, having as much experience as I can training, because maybe, you know, if you go the pathway you're saying, you know, maybe you present high risk or high injury risk, right? You just started doing powerlifting, say, for six months or a year, you get really good and strong at it.

Then you go right away to all these other. Like now you're throwing a baseball. You know what I'm saying? Like that would be, you know, so interesting argument from a programming perspective. I think where it sounds like most of us agree, though, is you land in bodybuilding long term. Yeah. Like for risk versus low or. It's the best for longevity.

Yeah, unilateral. Hitting all the body parts. You know what I'm saying? Symmetry and balance is still there. It's the most advanced diet. And then for the average person who doesn't know how to control macros and balance calories and stuff like that. I mean, I... And the argument, too, for me, was hopefully by that point, you're secure enough in yourself.

I'll use you as an example, Adam. You started strength training for the same reasons I did, right? It felt insecure, skinny, want to get bigger, whatever. You didn't bodybuild competitively until way later... To the end of all those. When you had already built a nice... And I already done a little bit of security. Yes.

You've already, you're a secure man. Yes. Imagine if you competed in bodybuilder. Sure. Sure. Like two years after starting, how that would have spun you. Sure. So that's part of my, I think the big thing to understand to with this is, what's cool about this is, you plan on doing this for the rest of your life.

If you don't, I think the smartest thing to do is understand the pros and cons of each. Well, yes. And know how to move in and out of all. It's great. Well, that's the truth of all this because obviously there's people listening right now that is in one of these camps that's arguing and, and, angry, right? Whatever.

Because, you know, but the truth is, this is my team. You should, you, you, you, you should have elements of all of it. You know, you, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, they're not, they don't become a modality and stick around for this long unless there's a lot of really good things about it. Yeah. Bottom one.

Yep. And we can say here and we can, well, I think that's what's been fun about writing our programs together. It's like, you know, we're addressing these different communities and we're like, here, you, you can literally try it. Uh, first, here. and then jump over into this next demographic. And we're riding them from the perspective

of having experienced all this. That's right. You know what's cool, too, about this? We didn't even touch on this. The experience of training in each of these is so different. Although I've never did a lot of CrossFit, I've done that style of training

when I was doing a lot of Brazilian jihitsu. It's a very different, it's a good feeling. It's a good feeling to feel like you have stamina, some strength, some agility. It feels great. But it's a very different feeling than when I'm grinding out, you know, singles, doubles, and triples of really heavy weight,

that's also an awesome feeling. Yeah. Which is very different from the feeling I get when I'm bodybuilding, and I get the pump, and I can sculpt my body, and I do this high volume style training. All of them are these wonderful, I mean, all three of them, if I got into them, I just have this incredible experience. And I think people should seek them out

and really understand those experiences. No, I think there's a lot of value. Go in, so the problem that everybody has is they drink the Kool-Aid of the camp. Yeah, dude. You know what I'm saying? I get it. Versus going in and going like, hey, I'm interested in this thing. I'm going to appreciate, dive all the way into it.

And I think that has more to say about my personality than maybe even when I landed. You make a good point. Like maybe if I did land at peak insecure is 17, 19-year-old Adam, maybe it would have done something. But this has always been my personality. One, I've always been against the, like, I'm never, like, I never wanted to be fit in a box. Well, it didn't happen that way for a reason. Right. Like, like, so I've always been that person to not want to be in the box.

Oh, everyone's doing that. I mean, why, the only reason I'm not doing Jiu-Suzis, because everybody does it. Like, I know. Oh, with all my heart, I want to do it. But then the other. Every podcaster of the point. Yes. The other part of me is like, everybody's doing it.

We got to get you to Kung Fu, bro. There's no podcast. There's no podcast. I was going to do Wing Chung. Yeah. Yes. I mean, it just, but that just highlights. That's my personality, right?

And so as much as I would get into each one of these things, I never would fully drink the cool egg as I'm like, I'm not going to identify. I'm not going to let you put me in a box, which remember when we started podcasting, I drove me crazy. I know, everybody was the bodybuilder guy. I'm like, I am not.

Do you know how much more marketable we would have been, especially with this topic, like you bodybuilder, you power, look for me, cross the guy. It would have been, you're right. It would have been if we were, if we all had a camp that we fought for, the entire time. It would actually probably made for a better. And that's what people want. They want the drama. But the truth is there's so

much good from all of them. You know what that comes from though, guys? It's not because it's because we train people. That's where it comes from. It's because if I never trained a lot of people, I'd probably be much more in a camp. Sure. But you work with enough people, enough different personalities,

enough different life experiences that you start to see the value in all this stuff. You know what's cool? Nuisance matters. That's right. Even though I can't quite credit CrossFit for doing this because I kind of got this outside of CrossFit although I know CrossFit could, you could get this.

Each one of them, there's three attributes that I think made me like what I can now consider a good coach. I've openly said first five, seven years, I was terrible trainer, terrible trainer. But like three attributes that I think make me really fucking good at what I do. And I've gotten from each one of those.

The skill and ability to teach powerlifting movement, is a skill in itself. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, part of why when I was at first five years my training, I never even taught deadlift. Yeah. I was scared to death to do it and much less teach it.

And then it took me years of getting really proficient at it to where I could coach it and actually really cue it and see something. And like, so that is a, man, that makes a good, and those are the most fundamental movement. So that's a huge attribute that I have that I didn't get until I went through like

powerlifting style of training for a long period of time. Bodybuilding, later in my career that I experienced. Dude, my level of nutrition. That's right. Coaching and like... Bro, that's what you bring to the podcast. Oh my God. That's like, like, it was so...

And it was wild to me because I actually thought I was already a really... Yeah, it's not even like... Every average person needs this, you know... I thought I was pretty good. It took me to a whole other level of understanding and coaching to somebody else, right? Like to where I can look at a body and go like, this is what's going on?

When it comes to X's and O's and this and that and that many grams of this and now. Bodybuilders are the science. And it, and it, and it does. It takes you to it. And then even though I didn't really get this from CrossFit, I think you could credit CrossFit, like my mobility. Like what I got from Dr. Brink and the time that I spent with him

and all the learning that I went deep on my mobility journey, which you could argue that element comes from CrossFit. Or it's embedded in CrossFit. And I think those three things in a coach, if you have elite level of those three, like you are, Oh, yeah. Who are you not able to like, like, who are you not? able to like completely help to a extreme level.

Like name it. Name me a client that you come across that if those are three really strong attributes, and again, this is not, the point of this was not me to pump my own tires. It's just that my journey of going through all those when I think back of like, you know, hey, I admit I was a shitty coach for a long time. I believe I'm really good at what I do today. What if I had to distill it down to three like badass attributes, those are the three. Of course.

Right? 100%. Would you not agree that those are probably the three that like you. Yeah. Is there anything like, am I, as I say, am I missing?

Or like, if you put correctional exercise with the mobility, which is why I put it in that category. But I mean, I guess you could qualify. Yeah. I would, right?

I would say that. And maybe you, because that could get even a little bit. Kelly Starrett stuff in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My influence was,

I was blessed. I've been so blessed to have these opportunities, but be put in front of me where I learn from people who know so much more than me. Like, I got powerlifting experience early on from older power lifters who showed me the major lifts. Bodybuilding was always something I was into, so that was just me reading and learning about it. And then the mobility and correctional exercise, I had a badass physical therapist that worked in my studio with me for eight years that I get to watch and see what she could do

and just listen. It was a tiny studio, so I was like I could hear everything. Like those things right there, oh my gosh, great combination. Okay, so let's take it a layer deeper because you just have anything in. You did, Justin, by saying, giving Kelly Starrett his love because I think it's, well, I think he's, he. Oh, yeah. Oh, he's a champion. He's maybe, if not the most important person to CrossFit, in my opinion.

Yep. I mean, obviously, Greg Glassman created it so you can get, he deserves. Robb on that side. But Kelly Starrette with mobility really saved it. In fact, all they are, CrossFit without Kelly Starrett dies. Oh, yeah. Without addressing the mobility side. Oh, yeah, they couldn't hide all the...

Exactly. Yeah. They would still have the throwing up... So, so I'm gonna... So let's try and come up with a book. A book, a philosophy, or a teacher for each one of those. If like that's like you were to... Oh, God.

So I think supple leopard for... Starting strength. I think starting strength is a great one. Yeah. Bodybuilding. I can't say Arnold's. I think so. Really?

Yeah, I think because you're going to have movements for everybody. You wouldn't do like... Good basic. diet advice in there. It's, they call it the encyclopedia. Well, he called it that, but I think people refer to it as that for a reason.

So I think body, I think the, the encyclopedia bodybuilding would be a good place to start. I really do. Had a huge impact on me as a kid. He didn't have enough on me. That's why I struggle with this one. Ironically, the one that... Do you have any that? No, that's how I was trying to come to my... I got, you know, I got to give our boy credit

a good friend of ours. I got a lot from Lane during my years. Oh, sure. That's I found Lane. Sure. I found Lane because I actually thought he, like, there was a, there was a transition in the bodybuilding, uh,

world of, uh, very old kind of science around nutrition and diet. Yeah, yeah, everything. I mean, even like the sodium and water intake and there's a lot of things that,

the body building, Lane changed that. Yeah, Lane, Lane had a, a big influence on the, the natural bodybuilding space, uh, early on.

And again, a lot of bodybuilding back in Arnold days, uh, that's not true because Barno, that wasn't high steroid day, but a lot of the, a lot of the information came from anabolic side of things. And, like, the fine...

It was also one person telling another, and this is what worked for me. There wasn't any science. Yeah, yeah, I felt like Lane did such a good job of that during that time. And take him or leave him as far as, like, he's your personality or not, but I have to give him credit for being somebody who was very influential for me.

I agree. He came out real big when, like, bodybuilding forums were really big. And so he had this huge impact through all of that. Yeah, yeah. And he stuck around a long time because, I mean,

like you said, like him or not, with personality-wise, like the guy, he communicates things that, I mean, very well, very well done.

Yeah. Data back. Yeah, so his sign, and he has obviously incredible understanding of programming, so, because he's also got

a power lifting background with his bodybuilding. So he's definitely very, very, you know what? It's unfortunate is he probably doesn't get to love he deserves, because he doesn't have this crazy genetic physique.

Oh. So you think body, you think of Arnold right away because of how he looks. Oh, you mean for bodybuilding? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. But like if I were,

but like, and I'm not, I'm not a fan of Arnold's programming. I mean. Oh, no. Like so. Programming why is,

I was thinking power of him was like Louis Simmons. Oh, yeah. West side? Big time. Oh, God. They change the game.

Have to put them in there in the mix. No, totally. 100%. Yeah. So I'm, I just thought that would be a fun way to take this. It's like, let's say you're not a trainer who wants to technically go through all these. Because here's the nothing.

I mean, we've read all those things. Yeah. And experienced all those things. That's the, just the ultimate is, have you read all the greatest minds in those, or some of the greatest minds? You say, you know, all of them would be exaggeration. But some of the greatest minds in those fields. And then have you gone through it yourself? And so can you communicate?

And then go work with a good coach who's got experience. Yeah. Because when you throw a wrench in of different. personalities and body types and variances and all kinds of stuff. Now what you think you know gets challenged. So many times what I thought was right would get challenged because it just didn't work with a client for whatever reason and I'd have to throw it out the window. Okay, let me consider this other thing. You know, talking about our friends that's been on here and been friends of ours for a long time, another one, are you guys watching our friend Drew Canoli right now?

Oh, he's doing great. Are you watching? Viral video. Bro. I, so this is the business side. He communicates that wellness side very well. Well, so you want to, you want to hear the geek side of the side that I get like, okay, so I get an opportunity to talk to a lot of these friends of ours that are like the founders and stuff. He's a founder of Organify for people listening.

Yeah. So he's a founder of Organify. You've actually known him even longer than I have. I've maintained a close relationship. So I talk to him fairly regularly. Him and Mike Matthews and many other these founders. of big companies that are friends of ours. And I love getting to know

like the behind the scene stuff. And like, like I've watched that whole journey of that company, you know, move its way all the way up to like a hundred million dollar company and then watch it come all the way down. And a lot of that had to be with, with Drew stepping in and out of the company.

Like he's always been a part of it, but he stepped back for many years. Like after it really shot up, we first got introduced to him. In fact, when we first got introduced, he was, he had a different CEO in place.

And I remember being really, fascinated with this because mind pump was really early. And at that time, I really wrestled with this idea of like, you know, should I step aside and like hire somebody else to run, to run us, right? And tell us what to do. Like I very,

at that point, not knowing what was the right call and remember thinking about different plays that we could do. And so, and then seeing him do that made me feel like, oh, that's the right thing to do. When you get to a certain point, be wise enough to like remove yourself from it. Don't let your ego get in the way that you need a hat. And so I had so much respect for that. But then it also

took a huge dive. Well, Drew he is now reinserted himself. He's got a big, huge part of it. He's very, what's the word? He's brilliant in understanding for lack of a better term or better description, the wellness

side of supplements and health. And he also communicates it very well. Yeah. But he gets it because he lives it. So this is why organifies one of those brands that needs that vision.

It's not just a supplement company because if it was, then you're just competing with other supplements. Although they have great products. They're tested across the board. They have some of the most rigorous testing. They even test for glyphosates. Yeah, they still have the trends.

But their formulations are very, very smart because of the team that they have. But more than that, it's like this visionary company that leads wellness and without someone like, like Drew, who's a leader, he's a thought leader in that space. Good luck.

And so now that he's on social media and communicating like things that are around health and wellness, he does it so well and he gets it. He gets how to communicate it. He gets how to talk about the science, but also the experience. And he knows what people need to hear because he's one of those people. What was the name of his YouTube? Trying to replace him as impossible. No, you can't.

You can't. You know, it's also a sign of the times too. I think it's like this is companies want the face of the brand now. And there's so many faceless brands out there. And supplements are another one. And supplements are one of those things where it's like, how do I know I trust it? Now, of course, you know, we've co-signed for them for a very long time. So that does.

I'm sure that doesn't why we're partners with them still. But having him back is like the face and talking. I don't remember what it was when he reintroduced himself again to Instagram. But I mean, he's in the millions. Yeah. Yeah. Like just watched him. Blown.

Whatever that formula is, he knows it. Dude. In and out. Dude. Yeah. And he just steps in. So, so good. So good.

You know I love about Drew? He's such, he's a great guy. He's, I mean, you meet him. He just, you love the guy. He's a really good guy. He's out there just enough. But he's not like, he owns it. He's not, yes, he owns it.

And he's not one of those out there people that's like hypersensitive. Yeah. I like that he's a weirdo. Bro. And he like owns it. To hang out with us, like, if we like you, we start to tease you. Yeah. This is what we do.

So we're guys like that. And Drew's like, he's not like, he's sensitive or whatever. He loves it, takes it, he owns it. I'll give you an example. I love that about him. I'll give you an example of people that, who he's like and how they were different is,

Ben Greenfield is like this. But Ben Greenfield took a lot longer warm up to us. Drew was like instantly. Like Drew, the first time we could be, we were all in a room together. We could talk shit. You know what I'm saying? Remember when he came in that meeting?

He was worried that it looked like a sergeant. What was that? What's that? Sergeant Pepper. Yeah. Jacket. I'm like, bro, it's a nice Beatles jacket.

It's cool. No, right away. Like, didn't, didn't, where Ben was, like, Ben took a little while

to warm up to us. You do. And both guys, you know, what I enjoy most about them. And I know they're somewhat controversial figures online.

And, you know, we've gotten to become friends and know them very, very well. And the thing that I respect the most about both of those guys that I think

they get a lot of scrutiny around as being these kind of hippie-dippy biohack guys with it, but they live it. Yeah. There is a lot of people. It's not fake. There is a lot of people that have jumped on that bandwagon. And they're fake. And yes.

And they pitch it. They preach it. They talk all about it. But they, like, they, those guys live that lifestyle and are really, really into that.

And listen, if, like, the newest ashoaganda or whatever thing that everyone's talking about, like, That's the most exotic thing about. It's got hell of studies supporting it. You know, he'd take established.

Whatever, the newest, the newest thing. What's the, what's the new, the last one that we, that has blared up. Shiluzee. Sheeh, she'll eat. Yeah. Sheila Jit, you know, he's always on the front end of that. That was the one I was looking for. I know.

Yeah, yeah. That's, but it's so true, though. Like, he's, he's always the guy to be the first one. And then I feel like everybody else kind of follows that trend. That's right. They did set that trend. They did. The Silajit train started with the organic line.

He probably started the Oshaegovina. Green juice was him. Yeah. Green juice was him? You're right. Green juice was not popular. You're right. All those other brands that are huge and everybody knows about it.

Organifi started that. Organifi's like the marketable poll check. Their flagship product. What you say? Marketable Paul check. I love Paul, but like you know. I just tuned into him. Paul's too abrasive.

He's great, dude. He's just too abrasive. I love him just because he's always going to be Paul. Yeah, he is. Forever. And he's always going to wear the same pants. Yep. No matter what.

Yeah. I just watched them stack rocks You know, it was funny You bringing him up So funny you brought him up Because I actually haven't I mean he's so The algorithm does not like him

You know what I'm saying Because he's definitely The ultimate controversial Anti-establishment everything guy And I actually was like You know what? He hasn't popped up my feet forever You have to look him up

Because I wanted to see What he's been up to And I'm like man all this crazy Epstein stuff I was like so curious What is Paul got to say You're right? Like I could have And actually, that's a good call.

Yeah, yeah. I was like, dude, he's got to be. I'd love to hear him shaking down. But I actually was surprised to see he hasn't been addressing this. Dude, you know what's funny? But maybe because if you know, Paul, Paul's like, this is old news. Yeah, yeah, I knew this. Yeah, you could have asked me.

Yeah, 70s and 80s, I could have told you about it. Dude, you know, my favorite flex that anybody's ever tried to do on us with Paul. I know what you're telling him. And it's such a like, let me establish myself real quick to you guys. We show up to his. house to interview him years ago. This is like seven years ago, eight years ago maybe. We fly to interview this guy.

Paul answers the door, brings us outside, and then just takes out his wang and takes a piss right in front of us, right? Like, hey, mid-conversation. I believe he's not hiding. I don't think he broke conversation. I believe he was still- He's not trying to hide or anything. Yeah, he's water in the place.

And I know what he's doing. He's like, all right, you guys, let's see if you guys flinch. Let's see what's going on here. I'm like, okay, this is what's going to be like? Oh, dude. You know. Justin, you should have one up to him. You should have one up to him.

You're right next to him. He'd slap him in the butt. Just pooped. If Justin pooped on his. You would bury it real quick. Hey, knowing Paul, Paul would have been like, nice. Not bad. Yeah.

Like your style. You would have had you some banana leaves. Here, let me wipe you. Who else has done like? Ben, Ben flexed on us. You bed did too. Greenfield. Yeah, let's go grab some bales of hay.

dude, we show up. He goes to help me use some. Help me use some chores. Has anybody else done that? Has anybody else? Has anyone else gave us like weird? We've had weird hand. We've had the aggressive handshakes.

No. I mean, Marble Shrug tried to, you know. Yeah. But then there's the insecure flexes, which was, that was, yeah.

That was not. Aubrey Marcus. Aubrey with the handshake miss was justice. He just can't shake Justin's. It wasn't just once. You didn't like, it was like three times. Like, and I wasn't like,

miss hands. And I even like waited. you know, like the second time, because I was like, maybe I'm coming in too hot or something. And it just wasn't working. Still, like, we couldn't, we just couldn't lie. Didn't he, like, hit the back of his hand to you? How did you do that?

I've never missed like that. He went up to my forearm. I'm like, dude, we're going to do the bro. Where you just grab, like, forearms. Yeah. Lewis Hous had the, uh, he hugged me and to rub my chest. Oh, yeah. He hugged him in a little circle around.

Yeah, he put his arm around. Put his arm. The first time we ever met, we walk in his apartment. Like a little Vic, Vick's vapor up. Yeah. First time we ever met, we walked in his apartment. That's weird, dude. He put his arm around my low back and then rub my chest.

That's a little weird, dude. That's a little weird, bro. Playing a little gay chicken there. And then who's our good buddy? You first. Oh, my God. The UFC fighter. Oh, Kyle Kingsbury?

Yeah, Kyle. Oh, that's too far. When Kyle? I would never be. Yeah. That's too far. Kyle did a low back one on me. He did a little brush.

He did a little brush. Yeah. I'm cool. Walking you around. First time I was there. around the gym. Because he could never, never been scared like that before.

You know what I'm saying? Justin, I couldn't stop him. We'd have to call the cops. We're getting hyped up. We're like, for boys in trouble. We're in trouble.

Yeah, if he goes after that. Any other, any other, any other weird encounters or like first? We've had a couple where, who was it that we had? What's the dude?

He's kind of a big guy. We interviewed him. And he had a personality on the podcast that. Oh, Elliot Hulse. Yeah, dude. It was weird. Like, suddenly he's like, I am this guy.

And I will talk this. I'm like, whoa, dude. Yeah. That's how you talk to. Delivery. What's happening right now? No, bro. Yeah, we were turned off by that right.

That's what we never hit it off. We never communicated after that. Rarely, it's rare that we, we meet somebody. And then we just like, that'll be last. There's so many weirdos, dude.

Yeah. People don't understand that. You know, they just see them in their videos. Remember, remember the first time I took, we went, I took us to,

I had the suite. And we went to, the concert. after we interviewed Aaron Alexander. And remember he took his shoes off of the suite. Oh, yeah. He started doing stretches. Like monkey walks.

Yeah, we got this suite out there, right? There's like executives and people in there. And the whole boy just takes his shoes off and he starts doing like. He's a nice guy. Oh, no, I love it. I really like the guy, but yeah, he's so out there. But he definitely's got that. There's no, like, this is like all due respect.

There's no offense, but the hippie smell. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. He's a non-deodorant guy. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, there's a little earthy, earthy to him. I remember the first time he came here, too, he was like climbing on all the, all the,

he climbed up on the, he was on top of the squat rack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, why are you up there? That's like first time meeting. So that's what I'm talking about. He's talking to us, but he decides. Do you want an apple or something? Yeah.

I don't know. Ben at dinner, dinner, dinner. Well, yeah, he sat, perched like a vulture. Like, not sitting in his chair, but standing and squatting in his chair and, like, leaning over with his massive. He's got massive hands.

He's got massive hands. He's getting him like this. Yeah. Remember he threw that science. question at you, Adam. Right off the gates. As soon as the podcast turned on. Yeah, as soon as it turned on,

he looked at the bro-y-est-looking one of us. He was like, oh, so Adam, what do you think about? I remember what he said. Yeah, you're a big bag. He was talking about... Sarms. That's right. And of course, Adam looked at me.

He's like, I brought my cell with me. Yeah. Go ahead, Sal. You obviously don't know. My own... Science, dude. So we were just at somewhere like that. I forget where we're at

and somebody started to ask me something. I'm like, you know, I listen to the podcast? That's not me. That's a question. It's like when I get really deep business questions. Yeah. We're going to interview, Sal, about your business and the analytics. I'm like, oh, stop, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You want to interview at him. Well, that's what it was. How many employees you had me? Somebody was interviewing me. They sent me over the list of questions, like, I'm not going to answer these. You got the wrong. Katrina was like, you can answer those. I'm like, it doesn't matter I could.

It's like, I have someone better for that. It's like, it's not a matter if I could or not. That's not my forte. I'm saying, as the science guy, that's stuff. I got to share you guys a cool story about, so you guys. So you guys know how my niece, Jessica's niece, has moved in. She's now lived with us for a little while now. She's going to school up here.

So such a great. I love, I love seeing when people are growth-minded and all that stuff. So she's a big soda drinker. Big soda drinker, like a lot of kids. Jessica grew up like this. In fact, my wife will tell you, she didn't drink water until she was like 21. That's all she drink with soda. So she loved Dr. Pepper and drank it all the time.

Well, she started working out. I started training her with my daughter. Yeah. They're getting into working out. They're getting into trying to get strong. I'm not pushing it. We're not trying to push it. And I came home the other day and she's like, I'm so mad.

I'm like, what's going on? She's like, did you know Dr. Pepper has this many grams of sugar in it? I'm like, yeah. Yeah, that's a lot. I'm not drinking those anymore. So she cut out her Dr. Pepper. So which she's, which is a great. I mean, for a kid, there's a big deal for her.

No, it's hard to do. And she's replaced it with olive pump. Oh, bro. I love that we work we're working with them again. Because she likes soda. Soda wants to. She likes the taste. Anyone that's been listening long enough knows that I've always talked about my

soda addiction and my sugar addiction. You grew up like that. Yes, grew up like that. 100%. And even as a young adult, it's been, it's in and out of my life all the time. And Oli Pop has always been something that I keep around the house that it's like, and just like anything else we talk about, I talk about this with caffeine, with marijuana, all these different things that.

I will notice, like, okay, I'm starting to drink a lot of these diet sodas. Like, Oli Pop is like the go-to move that I feel like I still get that. Yeah. Mouth feel, it tastes still sweet, tastes good, but so much better for you. It's like almost no sugar. Yeah. Like super low-collar. And I think they have, don't they, and maybe you can look this up.

Do they have a Dr. Pepper flavor? I think they do have a. What would they call it? I know they have a, I know they have like a root beer one. I know they have a cream soda one. Yeah. I think they do have a. I like their Shirley Temple.

The Shirley Temple one is the newer. It's really good. It's delicious. See if they have, do you know what they have one? Yeah, they call it Dr. Goodwin. See? They've got a doctor. That's so cool.

They have to get her trying that one. By the way, she just got a job. Oh. And it's the best. Did she get the front desk job? At the gym. She did. At the gym.

Okay. So the last time we talked. Oh, I told you about. You were getting ready for the interview. So she's so great, right? Because she's one thing about her. She's very shy. But she's also very great.

growth-minded. And I keep, I always remind her how growth-minded she is because I think it's important that you tell people, but especially kids, that you remind them of their strengths. Because, yeah, I remember what it was like to be a teenager and you can feel insecure. And she is. She's very growth-minded. Something's really difficult for her. She'll do it anyway, still be challenged, but she chooses to do it. And so I love telling her that. But she is very shy. And she's also very soft-spoken. And I have a connection at UFC gym. You guys know my buddy Dawn runs the place. And the gym environment is just a great environment to be in, especially if you're, if you're shy and you want to, you want to, you want to have to learn how to talk to people.

Well, it took me out of my show, man. It's the best. It's the best environment. It's like tons of people. There's music. It's a healthy environment, energy. So, so I got to tell you guys the interview that I practiced with her, because I don't know if I said this on the show.

So I sat down with her because she was going to get interviewed. I'm like, all right, let's practice. Like when, you know, you do an interview. So we practice the handshake, sitting down. And so I'm like, so, so why do you want to work here? And she's like, I think it'll help me strengthen and help me work on my social skills. I'm like, okay, that's good. But I don't think you should share that.

Let's not first. Don't tell them you need help on you. Let's not open with that. But she got the job. She loved it. When she started? She's starting. I think tomorrow.

Oh, I'm sorry. You have to keep us updated on the journey for that. Yeah, I'm psych. Oh, she's going to grow so much. You know what you just said that? I was just thinking about something. You just said something that I thought is interesting. that has to be somewhat true, if not really true.

When you go to the gym, even if, like, you had a bad day and you've motivated yourself or you've told yourself, I'm going, and you go, you had to switch your mindset to do that. You know what, today sucks. I don't feel good. I had a bad day at work. I'm going to the gym. So you've already reframe, or otherwise you chalk it up being able to F the day and you stay home.

So anybody who's in the gym has, naturally kind of this positive frame. That doesn't mean it's impossible to run into an asshole or run into somebody. It's the best environment. But think about that. Where else can you get a collection of potentially 100 or hundreds of people in one place? Who are there to become better to grow.

Right. And so there's a very high likelihood that most of them are in a really good mindset, right? Yep. Like that's like, that's a place where if you're having that bad of a day, you just don't go. That's right. You don't go to the gym. It's like it's a bad day, right? So you go to the gym, most people go.

And even if you were having a bad day and you go to the gym. You can work through it. That means you made the mental decision that I'm not going to let this day get me. I'm going to go still to this thing. And so you're already in a better. Totally. And not only that, listen. We sometimes are a little bit in a bubble because we've all worked in gyms most of our lives

in that environment. You guys remember what it's like to work in a non-gim, like a regular work environment? It's hard to remember. It's depressing. Yeah. It's depressing, dude. Like you're surrounded by people who are working. Most of them are not really passionate.

Most people that work in a gym are passionate about fitness. So there's that. Then you get the members coming in. They're all choosing to go there to better themselves. You got music in the background. It's uplifting. Most job, when I worked in the bank, because I was a premier banker for a little bit for Bank of America,

man, it's depressing. Life's a spiral. Nobody wants to be here. Everybody's coming in. Where else could you get that? Where else could you get that high of a percentage of people that, have to be in a good mood.

And even if they were in a bad mood, they've already at least shifted their frame of mind to be in a good mood to get into getting their workout. Where else? I don't know. A theme part? I mean, maybe. I'm like, I'm serious.

Unless you got the people coming at some kids force them. Mascoats, yeah. Yeah, dude. I mean, that's why Disneyland's so great. I mean, like, although sometimes you get, you can see on parents' faces like, they don't want to be there. $700.

Yeah, yeah. So tired, my kids. Yeah, a lot of times that could be self. right, you're there because you're kid. You don't want to go. Like how many husbands or whatever wives have been, like, I don't want to go. It's a great, dude. Listen, I'm really trying to think of another job setting or a setting where a hundred

plus people would be in one place. I think, and you could count on a large percentage, if not all, are in a positive mindset. That's kind of crazy. I would say volunteer jobs. Like, when you're volunteering, everybody's there because there's a purpose. That's a really good guess. Yeah. Right.

Like, if you were. If you're volunteering. Rescue animal place or something like that. Everybody's there. You're going to be around people who are there because they really, you know, oh yeah, or like you're down Mexico building houses or something like that. That's another level.

A mission trip or something. That's probably it. Like really, that's like that is maybe the only thing that would probably rival that because that's probably even more powerful because it's selfless. It is. You're there and you know that you're not even being paid. Right.

You know you're doing shit. You know, but you're doing it for somebody else. Like you have to have a really already great mindset. It's probably the only thing that would rival it actually. No. I can't think of it. If anything else? I tell, I was telling my daughter this

because my daughter's not old enough to work in the gym. And I'm like, this is the best first job you could get. Go work in the kids club, work the front desk. If you want to be a trainer later, that's really cool. But it's a great environment. It's not perfect. Every environment's going to have, it's whatever. Sure, you can have a bad boss. But you're going to work. What are you're going to work? A retail store at the mall?

Restaurants are cool, but restaurants can be a little, I've worked in restaurants. They could also be a little whatever. I think everybody should work in a restaurant. It builds care a little bit. It does. Just like I think everybody should have a little bit of entrepreneurial knowledge. Well, mainly to like start a business and what that entails. So it would give you a lot better perspective and more balanced. Totally. Yeah. Go sell. Go sell membership as in the gym.

Watch what happens to your people skills. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From our place is cookware that's forever chemical free. A lot of cookware, especially the nonstick cookware, has chemicals in there. And they call them forever chemicals for a reason. They don't leave. They go into your body. Now we have studies that show that connect them to not great things. Hormone disruption and chronic disease. If you want cookware that lasts a long time, that's non-stick, that's easy to take care of, that doesn't have all those crazy chemicals. There is a company.

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It's the best cookware you'll ever use, and you're not going to expose yourself to all those crazy chemicals. Our first caller is Bert from Florida. What's up, Bert? How you doing, man? What's happening? How's it going to go, man?

How are you guys doing? Good, good, man. How can we help you? Good. So I'm just going to go off the script here because it's a little surreal being on the air with you guys after listening to so many episodes.

So I've been listening to you guys for about a year. One of my daughter's friends' dads actually recommended you guys. So I started listening since then and since that episode, I've gone back, way back, listening to a bunch of stuff and it's all been good. And I wanted to start by thanking you guys for all the free workout family and specifically the parenting advice that you guys give. Just Lisa, being a good human,

man, and it's great information and there's not enough of that right now in the world. You know, it feels like I'm talking my gym buddies, except you guys are a little smarter than they were, but, you know, same kind of deal, you know, so I appreciate that. Thanks, bro. Barely, barely. Yeah. So I'll go on to my questions now. Basically two questions. I'm 49 years old, and I'll be 50 in March of this year.

I'm married, and I have a four and a six-year-old. A four-year-old son and a six-year-old daughter. I usually work out at home. I have a pretty full good home gym. And also, I have a gym at work that I used. I've been weightlifting since I was about 15 years old. That summer, I bought a bus pass, and I'd ride to the gym and meet my dad there during his lunch break and work out. Nice.

That's cool. It's been quite a while. So since then, my training's been on and off, but like 99.9% on. Very rarely take any time off. So over the years, I've struggled with what I feels like gaining muscle. I'm sure it's probably due to my conservative approach, not wanting to gain too much body fat. So I pretty much track every single thing that I eat. And I use an app to track that.

I am at about 1,000, 2,500 calories right now. I weigh 153 pounds. I consume about 165 grams of protein, and I'm currently doing a reverse diet. The app I use is a carbon app, the Lane Norton app, and they give me recommendations on the macros. And it feels to me like sometimes they're too small. You know, like the recommendations are a very small amount of calories. So I'm not sure if I should be trying to consume more calories or stay on the reverse longer. So that's my question as far as a diet stuff.

And then I have a question as far as a training. So should I, wait, wait, wait. You guys give me some. Yeah, let me ask you some questions where we're at right now. Give me an idea of like, do you have any idea how many steps you take in the day, like how active you are during the day? I don't usually track my steps, but I'm pretty, I'm like a robot, man. I'm consistent with everything that I do, like my daily routine, you know, my diet, my training. Everything is very consistent.

And I've never tracked my steps. So that's maybe something that I should do. Well, I mean, give me an idea what you do, what do you do for work? Like, do you have a job that's a desk job or do you move around a lot? Like, what's your, what's your day look like? I work, I work for the fire department, but I'm in an administrative position in health and safety. So I pretty much have a desk job. Okay.

So it's not, you know, my, my daily steps for work, other than when I work out isn't, isn't much more than, you know, out of the ordinary. Okay, well, that helps because if you, I was going to say your calories are probably really low if you have an active. job and you move around a lot. But if you're pretty sedentary at work and your only real activity is you're lifting that I don't think you're like way under. But I probably, we probably definitely could boost calories though. If you're training pretty consistently and you have a clean diet, my first reaction is to go higher on the calories. Yeah, what you're currently doing is going to keep you lean and fit. But if you want to gain, I mean, I would immediately have you go up 500 calories. Okay. Yeah, right out the gates, it'd go 500. I don't even think you'd see if, I don't think you'd

see massive change in the scale even with 500. You just start to see some strain gains with a 500 calorie increase. And you've been at, how long have you been at 2,500? I think it was like June or July. I'd have to look into the app. But it's been, you know, it'll be like 25, 25, 25, 25, 56. It'll go up very, I mean, 30, maybe 50 calories. Yes.

You know, that's what the increases usually are. Where did you start? What was it at? I'd have to look, I'd have to look back in the app. and see, but it had been, I've been at it since about April last year. Okay. So like I said, the increases really haven't been much. Okay.

So were you like, so back in April, when you first started the app, were you like around 2,000 calories or something? Is that kind of where you used to eat back in the days? That's what I'm wondering. Yeah, I think it was right on there. I mean, again, I have the exact numbers. I keep workout logs. I'm like, you know, OCD on some of that stuff, maybe a little too much.

I'm pretty confident if you went up 500 calories, you'd be happy. I agree. You look pretty lean. What's your body fat percentage at? So I haven't done like a Dexa, or any of the body fat test. We have an in-body thing here at work, but I didn't do it on an empty stomach first thing in the morning or whatever. I have, I would say, you know, my abs are visible, especially if I flex them. But normally they're there, you know, you can see them. You're probably like, you're around 10%. Yeah, I'd say 910 if I had a guess. Or 9. Yeah, 500

calorie increase just right out the gates. You'd have a lot of positive gains from that right out the gate. I mean, you could do the slow, really, really slow, you know, increase, which is very conservative. You know, Lane's got a great app. But a lot of it's geared towards trying to get people to get their metabolism to kind of go up with minimal or no fat gain. So it's extremely conservative.

But, yeah, I mean, you're a dude. You've been lifting weights for a while. you're lean, otherwise healthy. A 500 calorie increase is not huge. And I think that would be like that would, you would notice some really good strength gains right out the game. Especially hearing a guy like you who's telling me that you, you're consistently lift and you try.

I'm assuming you've been lifting that long. You probably got good technique. You probably lift good. So the 500 calorie boost, watch, I think in a week or two, like you'll feel stronger. Oh, yeah. You'll, you'll feel your big lifts go up right away. And then you'll know, because your big lifts go up right away from a 500 calorie boost,

then what follows right behind that is more muscle. You'll be right behind that. So, yeah, I agree. I think going up to 3,000 calories, I think you're going to see a big difference. How do you like, are you following the 15 routine right now? Are you on the upper lower spot? What do you want right now? Well, so right now, like I send in the question,

you guys obviously read it, but I sent in the question, you know, that it's around November last year, I started like my own modified kind of version of the 15 that I just basically do like like a compound lift like i'll do you know legs uh squats deadlift or something then paired like with triceps or biceps sure and uh i've been doing it and i and like i wrote in the email i said my 20 30 and 40 year old self wish i would have known this volume approach because it's like i'm either maintaining or seeing improvements like you guys always preach you know and it's it's it was so hard for me to pivot from doing five six seven days a week like i've done for so many years to do so much less volume and seeing, you know, as good if not potentially better results.

Yeah. So that's the part of the other part of the question was as far as the training, you know, what, what should I be looking at doing as far as that as well? I like, I mean, it's not. I like what you're doing. I mean, we could send you. If you want another program to try out, we can send it to you. But I, I, if that's your approach, that's a good approach.

Yeah. I mean, typically if you go in a calorie, if you start to bump calories, this is when you would want to bump volume. But I would rather you mess with one variable at a time instead of both at the same time. So I would just go up 500 calories, keep doing what you're doing. You're going to see great gains. I mean, his volume is naturally going to go up because he gets stronger. Exactly, you know, load.

Yeah, he's more with intensity. So, yeah. I like exactly what you're doing and just pay attention to those big lifts. My prediction is within a week or two, you see your big lifts go up. You'll go up. You're going to go up in your big lifts. Yeah, keep stacking. What are your lifts at right now?

So, like, what are you doing with your squats and your deadlift? Like, give me an idea of your strength. So with that, for, you know, overall, my squats and my deadlips really haven't been as much as I want them to be. And that was, I know that Adam throws in there the value of doing that symmetry, you know, at least once a year. I've had this nagging right hip thing on and off for years. So, you know, I don't do regular squat because I always notice I had like a right kind of hip shift. And I've gone to physical therapists, different people, they haven't helped me. The Zer squat, I've been able to do that.

And I can get up to, like, 185 pounds almost on that for a few reps. You know, so that's the kind of the workaround I've done, and that hasn't bothered my hip as much. You know, deadlift, I'm not doing deadlifts this go around in November I was, and I was up to, like, 275. Deadlift, you know, like this morning I worked out. I was doing incline dumbbells with 50s, you know, a few sets of 15 reps. So, you know, that's kind of where I'm at with. Your strength's going to blow up. Yeah, your strength will go up.

Do you tend to lean more towards, like, the higher 10 to 15 rep range, or do you tend to lean more towards like the low rep, like five rep range? What's more you? Well, again, since lately what I've been doing, and since I was doing that upper body, lower body split, I vary it. I'll do a few weeks, you know, 15, 12 to 15 reps, and then I'll drop down to like 6 to 8, you know, just to kind of switch it up. But at the end of the day, I'm a creature of structure and habit.

You know, so that's why I wanted your input on what program to follow, because I've kind of thrown this together and I think it's worked okay. But I really like the fact of having that program to follow the structure for the guidance, you know, to kind of gives me an end point. Yeah. So a guy like you who's got a good feel for all this stuff because you've been doing it for so long, a good idea would be go up 500 calories, stay what you're doing for. the next four weeks. You'll see some good strength gains. Go up another 200 calories after that and then

go into map symmetry because symmetry's got a little more volume and then follow symmetry. So you'll be at 3,000 calories for four weeks and then you'll be at 3,200 calories following all the way through map symmetry. And by the end of that, I would be, I would expect probably a 7 to 8 pound gain in lean body mass, maybe 5 to 7 pounds of lean body mass and maybe a couple pounds of body fat. But overall, your body fat percentage will stay great because the lean body mass went up. Okay. You'll look better. You'll feel better.

And I'm willing to bet all your big lifts. Oh, yeah. You talk to us about what you'll see up. Oh, yeah. You're going to see like a 20, 30 pound increase on some of those lifts. Okay. All right. So then the 500 and then about a month, after about a month, do another 200.

Yeah. And when you switch to symmetry. Yeah. So stick to what you're doing. Just go to 3,000 calories. After a month, then go to, if you don't have map symmetry, we'll send it to you. Awesome. Thank you.

Then go to Matt. symmetry, follow it out, it's laid out the entire program with another 200 calories. And I'm with Sal, I think. And what's cool is the way map symmetry ends, you do all unilateral work the front half. The last quarter, the last month of symmetry is a like five by five traditional training. So you really get to see your strength expressed at the end. Yeah. So the unilateral work will be great for you. And then you'll go right into the, then you go into the five by five, the final month. So that's a good layout for you. Awesome. And thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I love to hear back from you, Bert. I want to hear where it happens. Yeah, I'll keep you guys in the loop. And one last thing, I know, I know limited on time, but I wanted to share us with you guys. I've been in the fire department now for about 25 years. Before I came into the fire department, I was actually a school teacher. So, you know, in my heart is education. I've been a training guy here for years with a lot of different things we've done

in the department. But, you know, listening to you guys and the way that you guys have, the training aspect of how you guys talk about helping people and everything, that really, from listening to you guys has motivated me for my career after this career, which I'm going to be focusing on training people. I've always kind of help people out here and there because they see me and they're like, oh, Bert, you know, you're the fitness guy, you work out and all this, but it's really given me an opportunity to have something after this, you know, after a first responders many times leave their careers, they don't have an identity or something to identify with to, again,

continue to help people. And I think watching and learning from you guys, you guys really have motivated me that that is my calling, you know, and that's something that I'm going to follow up on the next, you know, three to five years when I move on from the fire service, my kids are still going to be young, you know, but I think it'll be something that I'll be able to do on my own terms. I won't have to chase money. I won't have to chase anything. It'll be for my own, you know, fulfillment and enjoyment of helping others. But I wanted to thank you guys for that as well, because just, you know, the way that you guys talk about, you know, the training aspect and helping people and, you know, there's a lot of value in that. And I really do appreciate that. So I'm personal

to me that I wanted to thank you guys for as well. That's great, man. Stay in touch. Yeah, stay in touch with us. Absolutely, man. Thank you so much. All right, Bert. Take care.

Yeah, I mean, easy. Easy calorie bump. You made a good point about Lane's thing. I just want to address that because I think we all have a lot of respect for Lane. I think Lane's awesome. I think his app is probably awesome. I think it's geared on the conservative side because the average person that he's probably putting on a reverse diet on there is somebody who is,

like low calorie, tried to lose weight their whole life. He's like a hard gainer type of person. Yeah. Like a hard garner person, you can throw a much bigger chunk of calories at that person and their body will respond. And there's also a couple, like, you know,

when I'm dealing with somebody where, because I understand the conservative approach, I totally get it. But when I'm dealing with somebody who's so afraid of gaining weight and so afraid of all this stuff, And I give them calorie bumps that are like 56 calories, 37 calories, 72 calories. It's where they're staying in this micromanaged space of this kind of like fear and attachment to their macros.

Kind of reinforces that. Which I get that, but just, you know, after coaching people for so long, it's like, I want to get you out of that too. And I think we're going to be okay bumping 150 calories. And I would rather not be so just absolutely specific with these tiny little bumps that just. just makes you feel even more like you're controlling every little step, you know, so, but I get it. I totally got it. Our next caller is Latasha from Tennessee.

Hi, Latasha. Good morning. Hey, everybody. Thank you very much for taking my call. I never expected to be chosen. I felt like I'd won a prize when I saw the email that you guys had picked me. Oh, thank you. So for some background,

I've always been one that enjoyed exercise, but I didn't really take it very seriously until after my son was born. I had him at 32. I'm 49 now. I was consistent with exercising at home with like workout videos, but I know now that that was mostly just doing cardio. It never occurred to me to pick up weights and do the progressive overload stuff that I know now. As far as my diet, my whole life is really good.

just been all over the place. I would eat too low of calories and then inevitably just completely throw it out and abandon it and just eat whatever I wanted to. And then December of 2024, I found that I was heavier than I have ever been in my whole life. And I was just at a loss because you try to look online and get some answers and it's all conflicting and you just don't know what to do. So an ad came across my Facebook page for online trainer company, and I decided to take a chance

on them. And I don't know if I can say the name of them on here with you guys, but the co-founder has a podcast also, and she has had Sal on as a guest before. Awesome. Yeah. So that was a really good experience. I committed to a year with them. And I learned a lot.

But it was a big investment for me financially. So I knew I was only going to be able to do a year. And so I did everything they told me to do. It was very disciplined, consistent. I wanted to learn as much as I could so that when my year was over, I would feel like I could go it on my own. and so one of the things that I did to try to make sure I felt comfortable doing it myself was I got my personal training certificate through NASM and researching how to do that is how I found mind pump. So I've been listening to you guys since I found that first episode.

So that's been about a year ago. and my question when I originally sent it in was my year was about to be over with Lindsay with my trainer and I didn't know I knew I wanted to do a maps program but I didn't know what I should do so I went with the Super Bundle because I saw that that would get me through a whole year and so I went ahead and purchased that and then I saw the Black Friday sale that you guys were having November and I bought a whole bunch of stuff. So you're set. I think so. I want to do them all myself, but my thinking was to if I ever got to a point where I'm training other people, those would be good to have.

Absolutely. Smart. Yeah. So I guess I just want to know that I'm on the right track. I'm doing things in proper sequence. I'm about to start phase two of anabolic. And then, of course, my plan was to do performance after that. But then I started thinking about I do have some imbalances and I know I'm weaker on my left side.

So then I thought maybe I should do symmetry instead. Or do you think it's still be okay to do performance? Well, let's, okay, so let's back up for a second. You're doing a great job. Yeah, yeah. And I'm reading your email. and it looks like you reversed dieted from 1,400 to 2,000 calories and in the process lost 10 pounds. Yes.

That's a great job. That's killer. Really good job. And how is that all going now? Where are you at? Are you still tracking or are you moving out of that phase? What's going on? I am still tracking because I'm afraid. Anytime I try to do it on my own and just track protein, I go way over on fat.

I love peanut butter and cheese. And if I'm not watching the fat, I'll get. Way off. Yeah. So I do, I do track it. But right now, I stay between 2,100 and 2200 calories. Okay. I'm getting 184 grams of protein, 200 carbs, and 75 fat right now.

You're doing great. You're doing great. You're doing great. That's not too much for protein. No, no. You're in a great place. So here's the next phase for you with nutrition, because you're in this great place. The next phase, so it's another big hurdle.

Okay. So like the initial hurdle people tend to go through is they start tracking. And then the next hurdle is increasing my calories, the fear of, oh my God, am I getting all this body fat? So that's a hurdle. Now you're through that. And now you're in this kind of like I track everything state. The next big hurdle is going to be moving out of that.

So you kind of have this relaxed attitude around diet and don't feel like you have to count everything. It's a big hurdle. But that's the next one for you. So that's what you get to look forward to. But just like the previous ones, it's going to feel scary. and there's going to be a little bit of back and forth. Okay, but I don't want you to be like worry about it. Don't fear it.

It's coming. And when you get there, it's going to be great because you're not going to need, you're not going to feel like you need to track everything. You'll have tracking in your back pocket for those times when you want to kind of dip in and out of it, see where things are at, but you're not going to have to live there. As far as the programming is concerned, before you started MAPS Anabolic, what was your strength training like? Were you doing traditional strength training?

or was it the videos and stuff that you talked about, you know, that you started? Okay. Lindsay had me on, she wanted to keep with the same schedule that I was working out and I was doing it five days a week. So she scheduled me something for those five days that I was normally doing it anyway, not to disrupt my routine. So she would have me lifting three days a week, upper body one day, lower body, the next, and then a full body. Okay, good. And then she had a day of yoga and a day of just doing core. Oh, great.

And how did you, how do you feel with your, with the traditional strength training lifts? Do you feel confident and solid or do you feel like it's still, you know, like I do. I feel more confident and solid now. Obviously, I've been doing it a year. But there were times that I had to research how to do the proper form and all of that because I didn't have her right there with me. Okay. And then, of course, I've been looking at the MAPS programs and those videos. And I'm doing a barbell bike squat of 120 pounds right now.

Wow. Great. That's great. And I weigh 116, so I figure. That's awesome. You feel confident and solid in it, stable, everything feels good? Yes, but I was going to ask, I've been hearing you guys talk about more about, like, getting a, more range of motion with the back squat and getting all the way down.

And if I don't have any weight, I can get all the way down. So I don't think I have any mobility issues with that. But at that weight, I can't get all the way. Yeah, lower the weight. Yeah, so I'm going to give you some advice with this. So it's a slow, it's so increasing range of motion. You want to respect it. This is where injury happens when people push it too fast and too far.

And so you would cut the weight way down. So if you're squatting 120, go down to 60. Yeah. and go down very control, very tight, and go down like a few inches lower than you're used to. Not all the way down, like a few inches. Pause at the bottom, stay tight, come up, and just really make the weight feel hard through control and stability. That's how you increase range of motion. What you don't want to do is just push yourself to go all the way down with a heavy weight

because you don't have the stability yet, and that's where injury happens. So you would literally go 50%. It's like a big cut in weight. slow way down, even pause at the bottom, and just make sure you're connected to every bit of that rep. Latasha, are you in our private forum yet? I'm in on the school forum. Okay, I'm going to have Doug put you in the Mind Pump private forum.

One of the, one of my favorite things that people do in there is you got a bunch of coaches, trainers, a lot of our people that are in there. And they'll, they'll share videos of their squat, their deadlift to get feedback. And so we're all on there too. And so if you're working on a movement like that and you're trying to and just do prop your phone up, get a video of yourself squatting or deadlifting. And you'll get, I mean, we got Dr. Brink in there. We've got in brilliant minds that can look at the movement and give you great cues or say,

great job. You're looking perfect or whatever. The forum's great for that. And so I'm going to get you in there so you can use that for that reason. Do you have a prime pro? I do. Good. So for a trainer especially, very valuable.

but go through that and you mentioned you noticed some imbalance differences between right and left, which is very common. Go in there, pick a couple movements for the areas that you think you might need help, whether it's hip or ankle or shoulder or whatever, and just practice those movements and stay connected throughout the entire way that you're doing the movement. That'll help a lot with that. I think performance is great if you want to try scaling back and working on unilateral stuff. if you don't have Maps 15 symmetry,

I'll send that to you. Oh, good. So Map 15 symmetry would be another great program to move to because you're only a year into this. And then after that, you can jump right into performance. I mean, I like performance too, though, because it's going to address a lot of the mobility.

It's in there. They're both good. This is really just you being like, do I want to drop the scale the volume down? Any of those three, you can't go wrong. Map 15, symmetry. Symmetry or performance. Or any of those three are great choices

after anabolic and where you're at right now. Okay, so getting my range of motion better with my squat and lowering the weight, should I do that? Go ahead and start doing that now during it, anabolic? Yep, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And then should I increase my calories from where they are from the 2200? How do you feel?

I feel like it's kind of difficult to get that much protein in, and I know if I increase the calories, I might have to increase the protein as well. No, no, you don't. You're good. I still get hungry. So if you're hungry, your protein's fine.

Your protein's fine. You can get it from carbs or fat. Either one. In fact, you mentioned something that makes me think that it might be fat that you need. Yeah. That's where you tend to go when you're eating what you're, you know, where you're kind of eating and following.

Yes. Okay. So why don't you bump your calories with some fats? Ooh, okay. It sounds great. Just gave you the green light. Yeah, you can go up a hundred. Calories of fats. Go ahead.

Okay. When I finished anabolic, I was thinking of doing just like a mini-cut, like decrease the calories for maybe three weeks and then go into maintenance for one week during whether I'm doing symmetry or performance. Yep. That'd be good? Yeah, perfectly fine. This is a great place for you, Latasha, because, and I want you to feel it out

and really take note of what you observe and how you feel. This is going to make you a good trainer. Because your clients are going to feel all the stuff as well. And once you experience it, you'll be able to communicate it so much better. There's a lot of other trainers in the private forum too. So good resource for you to communicate with a lot of other coaches and trainers that are early in their career. Been doing it for a long time. You got all of it in there.

Yeah, I've been enjoying the school forum. Good, good. I've asked you a few questions on there in that elevator pitch, exercise. That's a lot. That's going to take me a long time to get there. I'm going to try. That's great. You're doing great.

Yeah. This is great. This is great. I'm so glad you called in. This was great. One more question, if that's okay. Could I substitute in anabolic? Could I substitute the Z press for the shoulder press?

I've heard Adam talk about it. Absolutely. Have you tried it yet? That'd be okay to do. Yeah. I haven't tried to get it. I watched a video. I've got to go real light.

So, but yeah, absolutely. Great, great substitution. No problem. I prefer that. I prefer you to do that. Yeah, I love that. All right. I think that's all had.

Great questions. I just want to make sure I was had my programming bright and I was doing that and about the Macros and the... Good job. Doing a great job. Yeah, you're totally on track. Yep. Stay in touch with us, okay? All right.

Thanks for making yourself so accessible. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Keep it up, Latvia. Okay. Thank. Bye-bye. You know, it's encouraging for me personally.

when people like her call in, is good trainers are getting into the space. She's got the right, you know, motives. Her character sounds good. Yeah. Her logic and reasoning through all this is like on point. Yeah, she's humble. She'll be a great coach.

She'll be able to help a lot of people. Which makes me feel good. Her experience that she's going through. Totally. We'll be able to translate really well to coaching people. Totally. Our next caller is Alexandra from New York. Alexandra.

How are you? Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. Yeah, how are you? How can we help you? Good. So my name is Alexandra. I'm 30 years old. I'm a special education teacher. I played sports my whole life, mostly basketball through high school. And then in college, I was a Division I jablant thrower. And that is where I learned about strength. So I really fell in love with strength, and I started powerlifting after that for about five years. While I've achieved a lot athletically, everything was kind of against the backdrop.

of severe binge eating, restricting, and overexercising. I took a break from powerlifting, just continuing to lift for aesthetics. But currently I started running MAP's power lift because I find that working on strength takes my focus off of my appearance and is better for my mental health regarding fitness. However, I still really struggle with badly binge eating, restricting, and overexercising. Even though I eat mostly whole foods and keep nothing processed in my apartment, I find myself spiraling and binging on random healthy foods like rice cakes and oatmeal. I've gained a lot of weight over the years from this binge restrict cycle and I just so badly want to feel normal around food

and enjoy a meal out with my family or my boyfriend without obsessing over calories and macros. I have a master's degree in nutrition and I've worked with countless coaches, therapists, and dietitians, but this is something I can't seem to move past as much as I know, like the logic and the science behind it. It's really frustrating because I put so much. many hours into training and so much energy into my diet and trying to figure this out, but I feel like I have nothing to show for it. I currently run 15 to 20 miles per week. I lift four times a week with Maps with Maps Power Lift, and I do Peloton cycling classes on my days that I don't run. I eat 14 to 1,600 calories a day, but my binging negates any progress that I ever make, and I always

feel like I'm starting over. Your show has helped me so much over the years, but I still really struggle with balance and I would appreciate any advice you can give me from this. Yeah. Thanks for calling in. I can tell right now you're really excessively hard on yourself. And just by the way you're talking about it, that how hard you are on yourself, that shame is contributing to this whole cycle and process. So number one, you got to give yourself a little bit of grace. You're doing great. You said you binge on healthy foods. And then you said, you know, essentially what I hear from you is how disappointed you are and yourself. And you don't reflect fitness.

First of all, you do reflect fitness. I could tell just by looking at your shoulders. I think anybody who knows you would probably say that. And I don't think you would treat a friend or a family member or somebody that you were helping the same way you're treating yourself. And so that's the root of this. The root of this is that shame spiral. And we need to interrupt that. And it's not natural to interrupt it.

What's natural for you is what you've always done. Okay. So it's going to feel very awkward and weird to interrupt all of this. So we got to start with. Let's back up for a second. What does it feel like when you're binging? Very out of control. Okay.

And sometimes it feels like this sounds weird to say, but it almost feels like a relief sometimes because like I'm not like tracking anything or weighing anything. And I'm just like, oh, like I could breathe like. and I've definitely noticed that like that's something because I've been trying to pay more attention recently to like like how it feels and stuff and that's something I've noticed it feels like a relief but it also feels like very out of control and like I have to get it in now because I'm not going to get it later.

Yeah. That's because you needed the break because before the binge you were starving yourself and you were you were holding you were tyrannizing yourself. Yes. So it's like you live. the roof of a parent that's just constantly criticizing you, constantly controlling you with shame and criticism and control. And then you just can't handle anymore.

And you escape just to get a break for a day. So you can come back to that household that criticizes you. And part of the fear is that if you don't criticize yourself and control yourself, that you're going to live in that escape. So if I don't control this all the time, then that binge is going to be how I'm going to be all the time. But that's a lie. That's actually a lie.

It's not true. That's actually a lie. The binge and the escape and the relief that you feel is coming from the over control and criticism and hate that you're given to yourself. It's also coming from your body screaming at you that you need to feed me. On top of it. The amount of training, running and cycling you're doing 1,600 calories is starving your body. body. Like you should be double that with that kind of activity. So, and so you're doing that for days on, I don't know how many days in a row you get of 1600 calories in training that way. And your body is

trying to tell you every day, we need a lot more fuel than this. We need a lot more fuel than this. And then you finally break. And so part of what Sal's saying is true, so is also the part that you need to be fed way more than that. Yeah. Way more than that. So you're not only are you wrestling with this psychological thing that you're going back and forth and punishing yourself thing, but you're also wrestling with your body needs way more than that. That's like a double whammy. The answer is somewhere in the middle of this and you'll be okay, especially if you're a whole foods eater.

Like you're going to be, you're going to be all right. Do you, can you, do you think, would it be too much to cut down your training and eat more? Would that be too big of a step? And you can be totally honest.

I mean, I worked with a coach and I did it before and I cut my running like in half. And I was so scared that I was going to like blow up. because I've been doing that for so many years. Like I've been running so much for so many years. But, like, I didn't. But I think that adding food in addition to that would be, like, scary for me. And that's really what I feel like.

Because I know I need to eat more. Like, I know that the binging is, like, my body wanting more food. Yes. Except for things I'm binging on, like, rice cakes and oatmeal. Like, I'm not even binging on, like, junk food anymore. It's more just, like, whatever I can get. So I know that my body needs more food. but I feel so guilty when I do eat more food.

And then that will set off me into a like a spiral. Yeah. So let's take one step. Let's take one step first. And it is going to be scary. So it's going to suck. But we do got to take a step. So it's going to be either eat more or it's going to be trained less.

And you can pick which one. And the next step is going to be. Now here's the thing I got to communicate to you. You're not going to think your way out of this because I think you know all the stuff. and I think you did what the coach told you because you were like, okay, this is the right thing to do, but it never moved from your head to your heart. In other words, it never became like you felt this was the right thing.

It was like, I know this is the right thing, but it still feels like I got to beat myself up. It still feels like I got to go back, which is why you probably went back to so much running and why you kind of, whatever, rebounded or whatever, you know, word you want to use. So you're not going to think your way out of this. So what we have to do is we have to change your,

just the feeling around it. You know, we have to change your heart, essentially. which means you're going to have to interrupt some of these cycles. And that's going to be really uncomfortable. So here's what that looks like. A lot of pausing, a lot of reflecting, a lot of journaling. And you're not going to want to. In the middle of a binge or right before a binge,

the last thing you're going to want to do is take out a piece of paper and write what you're feeling. Because all we want to do in that state of mind is stay totally out of mind. We want to just let go because that's all we want. And so we have to interrupt that with journaling. And the journaling might look like, I just want to eat 15 rice cakes or I just want to go crazy on oatmeal. And then you just keep writing and keep writing. And then it may be like, I actually need to eat more.

I think the reason why I feel this way is because I'm eating too little. And then keep writing and keep writing. I just want to go. I just want to stop. I hate this. And then keep writing and then keep writing. And then stop and then go do what you need to do. and then when you're done with it, come back and you're going to write again.

And what you're going to write is, I love you, I forgive you, this is hard, this is tough, I'm going to keep moving. And it's going to suck. It's going to feel super awkward. It's going to feel like I don't want to do this, but it's a change. You have to interrupt those behaviors and start that process. And so it's got to be a conscious effort of making yourself feel awkward through this process. But I would start with, personally, I would prefer you to eat more first.

but if you feel like that's too big of a step, cut down your exercise. And then when you feel like I can take the next step and take the next step. This is, I mean, I would love for you to work with one of our coaches just because I feel like Sal and us are trying to cram all this in one call. And this is not a one call conversation. It's not a like, no matter how smart we are

and all the answers that we can give you. This will take like six months to you. Yeah, this is, it's hard. And it will be hard. And they'll be, we can give you all the right answers. You can go start to apply them. And then you're going to have a challenge, a plateau, a setback, a struggle, and to not have, you know, the coach in your ear to go like, hey, you're doing a great job. This is perfect.

This is exactly what I expect. That's the hard part. You know, like we can tell you all day long what you need to do. I feel like you can know what you kind of need to do. It's kind of having somebody along that process through you. So if you were open to, you know, going with a coach, I'd love one of my. trainers to work through this with you because I know that it's not easy. That positive self-talk is so powerful.

If you can just start incorporating that somehow, whether journaling or saying it to yourself or, you know, really giving yourself that grace is going to move the needle for sure. Alexandra, it probably feels so weird to try to give yourself grace because you're afraid if you give yourself too much grace, then you go off the deep ends and get obese. Yeah, like I am so scared that like once I stop tracking or once I stop, like weighing myself that I'm just going to blow up. That's right. And like I'm,

I also like, I'm so used to being an athlete where like, you just do more. And I'm, I'm also like 15 years removed from that. So I don't know why. Like I'm so stuck in that mindset, but I can't seem to like break out of it.

Yeah. Stop. Stop right there. You're doing it again. Yeah. You're beating yourself up a little bit. You can. Super normal.

Yep. This is almost everybody in the fitness industry. Yeah. Okay. Every trainer and fitness influencer knows exactly what you're talking about. But I'm telling you right now, it's a lie. Yep.

It's a lie that if you don't beat yourself up, that the other end of that is worse. You can't hate yourself into better health. That's what you're feeling right now. It feels like mental turmoil, which is what I hear from you, right? And so, but it's a total lie that if I don't hate myself and I don't keep my thumb on myself and I don't control myself. I'm going to go in this crazy other direction. So I have to do that.

And then every once in a while I interrupt that with like a freedom break. Like I can't handle this anymore. This pressure is too much. So now what a coach is going to do because giving yourself grace is so is going to be so alien. You're not going to want to do it is you're going to outsource the grace. So you're going to go to your coach. And you're going to say, and the more honest you are with the coach, the more effective they're going to be.

So it's going to be like, oh my God, I feel like you're going to be totally honest. Don't be, try to be logical. Oh my God. I feel like such an idiot or I can't believe I'm doing this again. And the coach is going to give you grace and then accept it. And then that's going to teach you to do it for yourself. And again, we're cramming this in a 10-minute conversation. But the process is going to be, you're going to hit these roadblocks.

You're going to totally stumble. I promise you're going to stumble throughout the whole process. But little by little by little, it's going to start to change for you. And you're probably six months away from a radically different relationship with this kind of stuff. So that's kind of what it's going to look like. But I mean, Adam's right. Working with somebody through this process is going to be your best bet for sure. Yeah, I mean, I've dealt with this for like 17 years at this point.

So six months sounds like very fast. You know, it's like, okay, what's six more months? But I've also like a little jaded because I've worked with so many coaches and people that, you know, promised they were going to help. And then they just threw meal plans at me. And then the second I went off the meal plan by a crumb, I was spiral. That's not what you need.

That's not what you need. You don't need a macro coach. No, no, no, no. That's the wrong. No, no, no. That's the opposite. That's not what you need. That's the opposite of what you need.

When we hang up, we can have one of our coaches call you, one of our trainers. Yeah, we know the perfect one. Yeah, who's been coached and trained by us and we oversee all the program. So that's not what it looks like. You don't need macro county. You don't need like this crazy structure. Follow this diet plan. That's not your solution.

Yeah, no, I've tried every single macro amount. and I just need to like be okay with eating and also too like I always think about it too like I've gained weight over the years but for the most part my body has stayed within the same probably 10 pounds but and that that's with vinging so if I would just eat more every day like I probably wouldn't gain weight so like logically I know that you can't you can't it's got to get out of you're not going to think you're out of it you have to feel it you're just not feeling Well, this is the reason why I'm pointing towards a coach is because it's, this is not a, you don't know. And it's not a like mathematical equation that we can answer for you in one phone call.

And then you're like, oh, perfect. Now I can go and go. It's, that's not the answer. It's a step by step process. And it will be hard. And there will be setbacks. And there will be moments in this process where you'll get frustrated. You'll want to beat yourself up.

The good coach will tell you, no, you're doing great. This is perfect. This is right where I want you. Like, that's what, that's a process. And you, and that's what you have to go. go through. It's not a, it's not a mathematical formula you're missing. Here's why I think you're going to do great because you, you went on a, a public podcast, you're talking about, you're very honest, you're not holding anything back. Lots of courage. Yeah, dude. So it's like, by the way,

it's the biggest, hardest step. Yes. If I can't get somebody to do what you're doing, there's no help, there's no help. But you're like coming out, you're talking about it, you're very honest about it. I think you're going to do perfectly fine. The other side of this is awesome. The other side of this is really cool. Yeah. It's going to feel relaxed. Yeah. You're going to like this. A lot, way less effort, way less holding on and a healthier, fitter, stronger version

of yourself. Totally. Yeah. And fuller. Get to eat more. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds nice.

Yes. Yes. Well, when we hang up, we'll have, we'll have one of our coaches call you and then look forward to seeing you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for calling in. Bye. Poor kid. Yeah. I feel that. Yeah. Yeah. No.

There's, there's nothing. you say in this call that solves that. I'll use myself as an example. I know everything about this stuff. Like, I talk about it. That's what I do for a living. I've been doing this forever. It's hard for me to do it to myself.

Yeah. It is very different process. It's a totally different process. I can't think my way through it. It just doesn't work. You got to feel. You got to learn how to feel differently, which is a very different,

much more difficult process. Yeah. The middle for her is probably, I mean, you eat 1,600 and then she probably binges like crazy because your body's so hungry. She can probably cruise around 20. She's got the mental and physical signals

that are just going crazy. Oh, yeah. I mean, she could probably cruise around 23, 2,500 calories, eating, full, balanced, and half the training and see incredible results. That's right. Our next caller is Joe from Texas. Joe, what's happening? Hey, doing, Joe.

Hey, how's it going, guys? Good, man. What's going on? Hey, first, thanks for taking my question. So hopefully it'd be very helpful. I'm sure. I guess I'll just read the email. It's easiest thing people do seems like.

So I started with, should I skip leg day? I know you always here. Never skipped leg day. My question of that is because I naturally have a lot of muscle mass in my lower body, just kind of like family genes, I guess. No pun intended. So background, I guess, I've been a cop for 17 years. Kind of worked out the whole time doing that. Started with a lot of CrossFit.

Finally came to my senses, moved away from that. About seven or eight years ago, found out I had really low testosterone. own, so I started at TRT. So that's definitely helped with the, like, muscle responsiveness to workouts. But unfortunately, that also includes my, my, like, quads and my glutes. So whenever you're squats and lower body stuff, like, it's super responsive and just blows up. But I end up with, to quote the, like, I guess the philosopher's, Yegang Twins, cute face, some waist, but a big behind.

So you've got big quads, but, like, a 32-inch waist. So if I buy pants or shorts, they fit my waistline. They're super tight on my legs and my butt. But if I go up to, say, at 34, where they fit comfortably around my legs and my butt, then they're super baggy around my waistline. So just looking for some inside there. Good problem to have, bro. The reason why people say don't skip leg days because they always skip leg day.

Yeah, because they have no legs and they have all upper body. That's not your problem. Yeah, dude, I think everybody has a body part. Not everybody's lucky enough for it to be legs and butt, but everybody has a body part that responds really well that you can get away with doing very minimal volume, and skipping it all the time. So as long as you're strong,

I mean, you're strong, right? Balance. It's not like your legs. Like you've been training for a while. You've trained your whole body for a while, right? Yeah. So I guess just to throw some numbers at you when I was tracking my maxis, but I haven't done a while just to kind of prevent injury.

Deadlift, one rep was like four, 50 squat was like 3.50 and then benches around to 65, I think. Yeah. You can very easily, and I don't recommend this often, but you're trying to work on aesthetics. I mean, you could literally train your legs every other week. Yeah, that's exactly what I do. Once every two weeks, I'd train my legs. And that'll just, that'll keep them healthy, keep them strong, fit.

You're not going to get weak or anything like that. Yep. And you're just obviously, you know, much more focus on the upper body to help balance out. Just maintaining it. That's it. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, because I definitely don't want to lose any strength. Like, I don't have a problem with getting them stronger. It just seems like when I do anything to work them out to give them stronger, they immediately just start bloated. Yeah, well, there's not, it's not like there's not an exercise that's going to get him stronger and not build them if you respond like that.

Like that's just what it is. You're going to, you're going to, you're, and it's again, it's not a bad. Sal's right. Like you, if you train once every two weeks, you're not going to get weak. Nope. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. You'll still healthy. They'll still healthy. They'll be strong. You know, and mix it up. Like, uh, it's squatting. One time, no time it's walking lunges, other time it's deadlift. Or sled. Yeah, sometimes it's a lateral.

Yeah, lateral drags. I mean, just mess with the different things you do for them every other week. And they'll stay strong, mobile, fit. And then folks, use that reduced volume there to put it in the areas that you want to develop. Yep. Whether that be chest, shoulders, arms, back, whatever the other things you want to really focus on. You can give it about a year. You'll see, you'll see your stuff starting to balance out.

Mm-hmm. Awesome. I appreciate it, folks. You got it, man. Yeah. Thanks for calling them, bro. All right job. Yeah, you guys have a good one.

Take it easy. That's not common, but it's a Justin problem. It's a T-Rex body. Justin squats once every three months. Yeah. I mean, can you, do you, do you, at all seriousness, do you, I do this with my arms, right? Yeah. No, I trade volume.

I'll go sometimes three weeks, not even train my arms at all. And then, you know, the advice you guys give, especially like alternating that, too, with, like, sled or more functional move. Exactly. Literally, it's a movement-based. So I try to maintain strength in my abilities more so than, like, trying to get leg development. I don't really need leg development. Right.

Like, I don't think I've ever really seen you, like, squat, like, three weeks in a row, twice a week. Yeah. Not since, like, football days. Yeah, like, I don't think I ever see, like, progressively overloading the squat. Like, you're always doing something. I do that when my quads grow really fast. So I train my, the volume I do for my quads way lower than the mess of my body because they just, they just respond really well. The thing is, as long as you're strong and fit,

So here's when this becomes an issue. You're just not strong at all. You just started working out. And you're like, I just want to skip this body part. No, no, no, I get it strong and fit. Yeah, yeah. Because now you're going to create some real dysfunction. He's deadlifting over 400 pounds.

You're squatting over 300 pounds. You're fine, dude. You're fine. That's plenty good strength. And if you also say that you've got thick, big legs, like you're good. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Mind Pump Media. We'll see you there.

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