Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2867: Groundbreaking Technology for Pain, Sleep, Athletic Performance & More Jay Dhaliwal - Super Patch

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Jay Dhaliwal, founder of Super Patch, joins Mind Pump to break down one of the most unconventional technologies in health and wellness — haptic patches that alleviate pain, improve sleep, boost athletic performance, and more with zero compounds or drugs.  Sal opens up about being deeply skeptical until reviewing the peer-reviewed studies, and the guys walk Jay through the entire origin story — from a passion project to help his mother with MS, to 17 years of research, $40 million of his own money, and 16 published peer-reviewed studies.  They cover the neuroscience of how skin receptors communicate with the brain, what the studies actually show (50% pain reduction, 85% sleep improvement, 5–8% athletic performance gains in D1 athletes), and why half the teams in the NFL are already using the product. Super Patch — https://mindpump.superpatch.com $30 off — no code needed, discount automatically applied at checkout (price drops from $99 to $69) SPONSORS Seed Daily Synbiotic — https://seed.com/mindpump Code: 25MINDPUMP — 25% off first month MAPS 15 BOGO — https://maps15bogo.com Buy 1 get 1 FREE — limited time (all 7 MAPS 15 programs same price) LINKS Mind Pump Store: https://mindpumpstore.com Maps Fitness Products: https://mapsfitnessproducts.com Instagram: @mindpumpmedia 0:00 - Intro 1:48 - What is Super Patch? Sal's skepticism and what changed his mind 5:13 - How this compares to when red light therapy first came on the scene 8:02 - Jay's origin story — his mother's MS and 17 years of research 13:16 - The Loretta Z database — quarter million EEGs and the search for normative neural networks 20:10 - The first breakthrough — identifying the vestibular response network in 2014 24:47 - First proof: comparing his mother's EEG against the normative database 27:43 - From brainwaves to skin receptors — how Braille unlocked the next phase 30:08 - The 2010 discovery of piezo two ion channels and skin sensation science 34:07 - The first product — socks that improved balance and gait by 31% 36:59 - Brain mapping 35 people with the world's leading EEG expert — the impossible result 39:07 - How the pattern in the patch is designed — 1200 iterations of micro tooling 43:52 - 2017 Japan study — skin sensation is permanently imprinted on the sensory cortex 45:46 - From socks to patches — how pain and sleep networks were identified 49:01 - The first clinical study — 50% reduction in perceived pain, 70% reduction in interference scores 53:02 - Sleep study results — 85% of subjects went from bad sleep to good or great sleep 56:51 - Pain relief comparable to 400mg Advil — without the drug 58:38 - Stress patch — 33% reduction in perceived stress, 24% improvement in mental health factors 1:01:35 - D1 athlete study — 5–8% improvement in lower extremity power at University of Arizona 1:03:55 - Half the NFL is already using Super Patch 1:04:17 - Stacking patches — which combinations work best for athletes 1:05:30 - Neuroplasticity — why your baseline gets higher over time with consistent use 1:07:52 - Full product lineup — pain, sleep, stress, focus, libido, immune, Zen flow state & more 1:11:28 - Appetite suppression pilot — 20% improvement in resting metabolic rate 1:13:32 - 5000 MDs in America now recommending Super Patch  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump with your hosts. Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Okay, today's episode, this one is wild. This doesn't happen very often, but my mind gets completely blown.

So we interviewed the founder of Super Patch. J. Dollywall. And he came up with a technology. It took him a long time and tens of millions of dollars. He came up with the technology that does things like alleviate pain, improve sleep, boost athletic performance with no compounds, no supplements, something called haptic technology. It's literally a small patch you put on your skin.

And it gets these things to happen. When I first heard about it, I was completely skeptical, completely skeptical. until Jay sent me the peer-reviewed controlled studies. Real studies, you guys. Like, you can look them up yourselves. The studies prove these things really work. My mind has been changed. We've experimented and used their products.

And all of us notice a difference. It's wild. It's breakthrough. It's going to start a new category of how people can alleviate things like pain or improve their sleep or move better, boost their libido. The possibilities are endless. The company is called SuperPatch. So in this episode, we talk all about the founding, the science, and just how wild it is.

By the way, if you want to try out one of their products, you get yourself a discount. You can go to mindpump. Dot superpatch.com. That link will get you $30 off their products. Now, this episode is brought to you by another sponsor, C, this is the world's best probiotics. So if you like the benefits of probiotics, you like the better gut health, you see what the science says for inflammation. for skin health, for energy. There is some evidence that shows that probiotics may help with fat loss.

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Buy any MAPS 15 style workout program. Get any other MAPS 15 style program for free. Buy one, get one free. Go to MAPS 15 Bogo. All right, real quick, if you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstore.com. I'm talking right now, hit pause, head on over to mindpumstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

Jay, welcome to the show. So glad to be here, so. So this is an interesting one for me, right? So I'm just going to tell the audience, like, how this all came to be and why you're on our show. So you guys sent us some samples of your product. And I'm typically the guy that looks at supplements or products and, you know, helps determine whether or not this is something we'll even consider, you know, working with. And I was really skeptical, right out of the gates, like really skeptical. So your product is a patch that you put on and it produces effects.

Now, I initially thought, oh, this must be a transdermal. Sure. You know, it's going to deliver some kind of transdermal compound or whatever. And then I looked at it. I'm like, there's nothing in this. Yeah. In that way. It became more skeptical.

Yeah. Even more skeptical. So the skeptical was killed just started broke, right? Yeah, and I was like, this is, I mean, I'll be honest, I thought I was like, this is, you're not the first guy? Yeah, this is not, this is nothing. This is like total, whatever. Yeah.

And then you guys sent over some studies. Yeah. And I looked at the studies and I was like, are these real? Like, these are well made, like these are legit studies showing. That's what won you over for sure. And like a real effect. It's real deal. Like a real effect, like a significant effect.

Yeah. So I went through the studies. but I was still, I'm still skeptic. I'm always a skeptic. So I get on the phone with you. And I'm like, I got to ask this guy, like, what the deal is. Oh, yeah, you came loaded. I was like, loaded.

I was like, okay. Well, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you what. It's good, no, I appreciate it. Well, we haven't, I don't think there's been a product like this that we've been skeptical and then this interested in since red light therapy. That's all I was just going to say. Red light therapy did a similar thing.

I remember when that first, that first became popular. You've got to cross the chasm of understanding and belief that's not there, right? So you have to build a bridge. Yes. 100% because same thing with red light there. How cool, you were shining a red light on yourself. There's all these things. And then they did the same thing.

They sent us studies. I saw the studies. And then I was like, huh. Then we talked to them and now, you know, obviously it works. And now everybody knows it works. But this was back. So with your product, I got you on. And that's why I'm asking you all the questions,

while we're on the phone about the studies and how this works and how you came up with it. And you got me interested enough, definitely to have you on the show. and I will say we've been trying some of them, and Adam's been having some pain issues, and he's been using the pain one, and he explains it. He says, it takes my pain from an eight and a nine down to like a five.

Yeah. Or something like that. That's what we see in the study. Okay. That's the best way I can describe it. I don't know how else to describe it other than this. That study shows 50% reduction in perceived pain. Okay.

So explain what these patches are and how you came up with them, and then let's talk about these studies, because it's wild. It's crazy. And again, if I didn't see all these studies showing support, there's no way I believe it. So let's start there. No, that's, thanks for anyways, thank you for the open mind because they say, you know, a mind is like a parachute.

It only works if it's open. Right? Because there's so many things happening in the world that we don't have time to stay in top of it, right? The second thing I'll preface, and we can go down two different roads. We can go down the really in-depth road or we can go at the high level. I think you dudes are going to be like, let's go into the. into the deeds, which is great. Everything in neuroscience, and I'll argue anybody, is a theory.

If anybody says they understand how our mind really works and everything that it does and how it does, we don't know. All we can take a look at is develop theories and then figure out what's the likelihood of this is what's causing the cause effect. So if there's anything that I say that doesn't make sense or you want a deeper influence, we can talk about it. I might say that I don't know. There's a lot of things I don't know.

and we just measure the effect, right? We're looking at what's happening. So I think we all agree that our nervous system is in charge, right? It runs the show. Every physiological function has some kind of neurological control, right? That control in humans, and I only studied humans, and people say, what about animals? I don't know about animals.

I've only studied the human e.E.G. that neurological control is expressed in brainways. That is the language of our mind. Alpha, beta, delta, theta, gamma. Those are the brainways we can read with the equipment that we have today. Is there other stuff going on? Quite possibly.

We don't know. But this is what we can study. And EEG studies and QEG studies are the backbone, the gold standard of understanding normative neural function. Okay. And we can see those, networks, and so what is the neural network? A neural network is a combination of brain waves connecting

one region of a brain with another region of a brain. Right. It's just a little spark of brainwave activity of a wave, but it's never a straight line. It always spirals. Right. So we have to understand that our mind is in a two-dimensional construct, right? So although we see squiggly lines on an EEG, the stuff that's actually happening in our mind is never a straight. There's no straight lines in neurology. It's always spiraling. So anyways, it's one region of our mind, one neuron, one broadman area talking to another broadman area. It's a little bridge. Multiple millions of bridges form networks. And every physiological function can be reduced if you look at it in certain ways to a very discrete network of function. And so that's what we've done. So first of all, we decided to look

And you asked, well, why did you have to even do this? Like, you must have better things to do. This started off as a passion project to help my mom with her MS. Right? For 25 years, we tried every mainstream mechanism, modality. You name it, we tried it. And the question for me at the end of the 25 years was, we're trying to get the signal from her mind to her body

because mom couldn't do this. Yeah. Right? And so my background is software encryption. And so my question to, her care providers and leading thought leaders in this space was, we understand because of the amylination, the signal is not getting from her mind to her body. She wants to do this. She wants to be ambulatory control in her arms, but she can't do it. So talk to me about that

signal, right? And the answer was, well, it's not that simple. So what I've learned is if academia and mainstream medicine comes back and says, it's not that simple, that's code for we don't know. That's what I've learned over the last many, many years. And they're like, well, why do you want to know? It goes, pretty simple. If I can quantify the signal, then maybe I can build a bridge over the part that's not working right. Because that's what engineers do. We build bridges.

Right? They're like, well, I go, we don't know what the signal is. Where does it start? Well, it starts in the brain. I'm like, great. What part of the brain is regulating this and what's the signal that starts there? It's not that simple. Right?

So this is a conversation that's many, many months in weeks and just trying to deduce it. And the conversation that concluded was our mind generates information that starts off as brainwaves, that when it exits our central nervous system down the brainstem, out the AP of the brainstem, it becomes microcurrents of signals. There's no brainwaves per se inside our peripheral nervous system, right? They're microcurrents of electricity, all organized in a very specific way. And I said, okay, what are the brain waves that actually control ambulatory control? That's where I started looking at it.

And again, the answer was not that simple. But what I knew at that point, as you can imagine, is if brain waves are the source of that control, that express neurofunction, that ultimately express physiological function, then that's what we need to study. But you can't base it on one set of data, right? You need lots and lots of data. So there are a number of databases globally that have been collecting eG reading, from people for decades. The database that we've relied on

is called the Loretta Z database. It's about a quarter million subjects. They're EEG readings. And it's become the normative database to measure normative function. So if I took, Sal, your EEG, and I want to see, hey, where is Sal ZEG neurofunction based against normative?

That's the database we would compare your EEG to see the difference between normative function and where yours is. That's what these databases are used for and can use them for imaging. You can use them for identifying networks. So this is now going back to 2009. So it's been a while. So this database, you can license it.

It's not expensive. I got this database and I'm trying to see where's a network that controls mom's ambulatory control. And the database doesn't have it, right? It's not built to do that. and when I write to them in a community camp I say, listen, where is the ambulatory network? Where is this network?

They're like, no, no, we have this software, but basically what you're seeing is an oscilloscope that has wiggly lines on it. So for better part, three and a half, four years, I write my own software to start analyzing that database. So now here's the theory that I had. And if you disagree, then we can talk about it. The four of us are awake and alive, right?

So far we agree. So far we agree. that means if our brain is regulating every physiological function, our breathing, a respiratory control, our heart rate, everything amatory, then that activity must be expressed in our minds. There's communication going on. There's something going on, right?

Yeah. And if that's the case, then that network must exist in every single person. Right? Seems logical. Seems logical, right? That was the theory. Okay.

If I have enough database, if I have enough data or a large enough database, there must be a network in every single one of them that regulates ambulatory control. So you should be able to identify. I should be able to siphon it out. This is what these brain waves look like in people with normal control. Yes.

Okay. That was the premise. And you're trying to look for it. I'm trying to find it. And so you built software to analyze, because that's a lot of data and numbers. And so step one was creating software to compile all of this and give you what you're looking for?

Well, it's pattern recognition, right? So it's based on machine learning, pattern recognition, dealing with. So you can take any complex sine wave and you can reduce it to individual frequencies. And all this is it's just Fourier transfer. This is mathematical constructs. I've been around for a long time.

It's signal processing, right? But it isn't one signal. It's a lot of signals. So what we had to find was the relationship between areas of the brain, Broadman areas, the different discrete networks that are being formed in them,

and find the one that's common across 99% of that database. You're looking for normative. I'm looking for normative and consistency. Does this pattern exist? So the ambulatory program that all of us have is hardwired, is organized the same way in all of us. Because no one teaches us ambulatory. Don't want teaches us how to use our armor legs.

Right. No one teaches us pain. No one teaches us sleep. No one teaches us these things. These are pre-programmed. And so they must be the same. Otherwise, we can function. Right? So I'm looking for that network that helps regulate our ambulatory control vestibular response, balanced ability, control my arms, control my legs. Why? Because that's what my mom lost with her MS. Now, when you're doing this and you're first off, creating that software in itself is a crazy project. That's like a whole other company.

It's four years. Four years, you're just creating the software. Coding. Five and a half million lines. Wow. Okay. So that whole time you're doing that. And you're right. Your thought process. And I did this, but that's what I, so the advantage style was a great point because that's what I did. That was my sweet spot. Okay. Like, I grew up doing that. Okay. Like, that's where I'm at home. Okay.

So five years, you're creating the software that's going to break this down for you. And your theory was, if I can identify what's normative, then I have a place to look now to help solve this problem. You don't know how to solve the problem. I have no idea. You just are like, this is the first clue. Listen, it's like Google, maps. If you want to go somewhere, you've got to know where you are first. Sure.

Right. Right? So I need baseline. I need to where am I? What are we starting with? What's normative? What's baseline vestibular response? What's baseline ambulatory control?

How are you, when you're writing the code for this, how are you able to tease out all the other functions? This is the time and the energy. This is why it's taken so long. Yeah. Like the horsepower on the, now we have so many different tools. But the server stack is heavy. The coding is heavy. The app is heavy.

heavy, right? It's a drain because you're synthesizing trillions of bits of data trying to find that common. And once you start seeing it and seeing how it's organized, then it becomes easy and easy. The last patch that I made was 10 times, 100 times easier than the first patch that I made, right? Because you've got to start somewhere, right? And the beautiful part is EEG data and EEG analysis and Q analysis is not a new thing. Top-tier scientists, the national health programs, the Pentagon.

They all been studying this. So this isn't like I'm doing this in isolation. Some of the smartest people in the world around. So there's a lot of research happening at the same time that I'm reading, that I'm saying, okay, this is probably not the right way to go. This is probably not. So you're getting clues and hands up. We're getting clues everywhere, right?

And all I'm trying to do is find a consistent network that I believe, theoretically responds to ambulatory control muscle recruitment. Now what's the majority of, like, where are you getting all this data from in terms of the person? So the Loretta Z database is that database. It's got the QEG database of a quarter million people. That's what we're analyzing. It just varies across the board. It's age 2 to 85.

That's a lot of people. That's a lot of data. Which is actually really good for what you're trying to do. It's absolutely the perfect thing that I'm trying to do. Without it, I couldn't do it. Because Normative. Could you imagine if I think of collect? No, I know.

No, it's not going to happen. It's a lifetime just to gather that data. No, but this was a lifetime of people that had been studying this. right? There's so many people looking at that. Now, what made you at this point, I got to ask you this because what I know of MS is that the essentially the communication highway,

the myelin sheaths, right, that protect the nerves, is becoming damaged. Yes. And so the signal's not getting to the place. Yes. When I hear that, I'm focusing on the myelin sheath. I am not even thinking about what made you go in that direction. Well, you heard what he said. His engineer Brian thinks of creating a bridge.

He knows, because I don't know there was no road, the road you walked there. For 30 years, they haven't been able to fix the mile in issue,

the demilination issue, right? So I'm like, they can't fix it. So what do I do? I knew that I had to build some kind of bridge over the broken part.

But before you do that, you got to know what, what do I got to get across the bridge? Am I building a railroad track? Am I building a highway? I got to know what is that information

that's got to go across because they can't tell me. Got it. And because I don't know what it is, I got to go to source. I got to go to first principles. Where does they start? Because once I know where it starts, then I can trace it.

Got it. Got it. So you're thinking, let me figure this out first. Once I see what's going on. Then I'll know what's going on. Then I'm going to try and build a bridge. Then I'm trying to build a bridge. Yeah.

Seems impossible. That's crazy. Of course. But this is the thing. I believe that every challenge that we ever put in front of us, the big guy upstairs had a plan for us. Okay. If he didn't train me with his gifts of building to understand and learn and

mathematics, I couldn't do what I did. So I don't take any credit for it. I was like, oh, you're so smart. I go, I got nothing to do with that. I'm determined. I got nothing to do with that. Our personality is God-given. I believe this wholeheartedly.

And you're motivated because it's mom. Because I'm motivated because it's my mom. So I have a great career. I'm financially independent. I got a great marriage. I got great kids. I take care of my parents. Check mark, check mark.

I knocked the American dream out of the park. I hit for the cycle. Now what? Now what do you do? Mom's still sick. So the motivation is there. The desire is there. The curiosity is there.

And I have the time and resources to do it. If I didn't have the time and resources, this wasn't going to get done. No one was going to believe that this crazy guy was going to sit there for 15 years to figure this thing out. No one would invest in it. So if I didn't have my own resources to do it, it wasn't going to happen. Yeah, because that's trying to raise money for that idea. No chance. No, no chance.

Now everybody wants to invest. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, thanks. So in that five-year period when you're trying to, you're creating the software, you start synthesizing this data, when was the first like breakthrough or aha moment? There were so many. So because you got to you got to triangulate down. Right? Okay. Because there's seemingly an infinite amount of data and infinite amount of computations that you're trying to do, right?

So you're thinking, where do I start? Right. So I come across this study done in 1964. Wow. Old study. In Sydney, Australia. By a neuromuscular dentist. This is weird stuff.

A neuromuscular dentist? Dude. I didn't even know that was a thing. It's a thing. I mean, you were scouring. I'm reading everything. Like, I've read 50,000 research papers over the last 17 years. Yeah.

So I'm just... I've been there with a loved one where you're just, you're motivated. You're motivated. I'm going to read everything. Because you don't know because I don't know. Yeah. Right? So the part of the learning is disqualification and this is important.

Disqualify and this is important. Disqualify, this is important. But every time you read a paper that's worthy and that is informative, it's got 200 references that you also have to read. Yeah. Because you can't connect the dots. Wow. Right.

So this research done in 64 in Sydney, Australia, there's this guy, he's taking a look at neurofunction. He's taking a look at how the different nuclei in our brain are impacting vestibular response and balance. This is hitting like, this is triggering me. Yeah, so this is right up your... You're right in my alley. So he says that, hey, there's nuclei,

there's a red nuclei in the ponds. He says, the ponds and the midbrain are critical for vestibular control, balance, instability. This is what mom lost. So what this does for me, and this is the first year, it's like, okay, this narrows the field. Yeah, now you can start to use this to search for other studies.

Now I know where am I going to start looking for the first network. Instead of looking at the whole brain, I know that, hey, if this is, if this vestibular system is, is isolated or predominantly controlled by this region of the brain, that I know which area,

the Broadman areas that I have to start focusing on that triangulate from there. It's like you were searching in the total vast of all the oceans and you've just narrowed it down to the Atlantic. Just that. Yeah. So looking into spaces, seeing all the galaxies,

now I'm just looking at this one. constellation, right? And say, okay, this is where I'm going to start. Work done by giants. That's okay, hey, dude, look here. And that's what it was. So it started with that. And the first inkling that I had of where it was was starting to look at the midbrain, the different nuclei, what do they connect? What are they broadcast in? What are they connecting with? And this over time led to this, this is really a diagnostic tool. It says, hey, we've looked at all of this data. Here are common patterns of networks that are appearing over and over and over and over again. And if they only appear in 50%, I'm not interested.

Because the theory was that they have to exist across 99% in that database. That's got to be really common. Really common. Yeah. Right? So based on other people's research, I deduce what I believe is the vestibular response network. And I go, here it is.

And then I have my mom's EEGs from every year we do an EEG for my mom. and when I compare her EEG against that database, against that network, she's below. So if this is the normative bandwidth for that vestibular response database, because there's a band that operates in, right? Hers is lower. Wow.

And while you're doing this, you're like, I hope this looks different. Because it would imagine if it wasn't right, but you're like, I hope I see a difference. This is the thing. So I learned a long time ago, I don't know where exact moment, I learned a long time ago

to disassociate the effort from the outcome. Yeah. Otherwise, you would have given up. Otherwise, you give up. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

You quit. Right. If you can isolate, just put the outcome over here. I'm going to do the do. Yeah. And we're going to see what it is. So being that curious person, that student, that I'm going to go learn. Nothing else I'm going to learn.

Right. And it was such, like if I didn't sleep for days when, when I saw that. I go, this is insane. Because it was very clear. It's so clear. Yeah. And so then what do you do? naturally is you go prove it.

So I got EEGs from other people with MS. Oh, I was just going to ask. Then you got other people with MS and it's the same thing. You saw consistency. Consistency below. Oh, light bulb. That's got to be exciting. Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing.

I'm like, a lot of, like, like, I would wake up my wife in the day the morning. Like, this is, is it right? Wake up. I'm watching something. He's like, why did you find something? And I tell her what it was. And he goes, I go, the vectors are like this. And then she's like, what are you talking about right now, right?

But it's okay. Because I'm in full, like, geek mode. and then I go, okay, what else is true? So people that have no control, there's other people that have involuntary control of their muscles, right? So if you have people that have muscle spastic issues, trest issues, stuff like this,

and I put their network in, it's a buff. Wow, what you would expect. Bro, I'm like, this is wicked. But I don't know, so I'm just, I'm like you, I'm like, let's see what it says. Yeah. Put the data in and it goes, ping.

Yeah. Right? I was like, this is very cool. And I go, I think this is the network. So then you're looking at it. And I go, so now what? Okay, great, Jay. You spent all this time, energy and money.

You've done this thing. And how long? When was it when you figured this out? How many years? This is 2014. Okay. So you started 2009? Yeah.

End of 2008, 2008. This is 2014. So this is five years later. Your first breakthrough. Wow. Like that I could see something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

Bro, the discipline to go that long. Well, it's your mom, dude. It's a mom, brother. Nothing you wouldn't do. Yeah. Right? Like, between me and God, there's mom. Yeah.

That's how I came. here. Yeah. Right? There's a connection there that, the ultimate, I think everybody's, I speak for myself, my mom is my creator. I forgot, right? Yeah.

And so I'll do anything for her. And so that's what keeps you going. And the advantage that I had of financial independence was that, yeah, it was costly, it was timely, it was a lot of determination that's required. But I couldn't think of a more nobler thing to pursue than that. How much money at this point did you invest? At that point, I was about four and a half in. Million.

Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Okay. Oh, to date, I'm 40.

40 million of your own money. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So you're... Talk about conviction, bro. You've got to have some serious... Hold on.

How was your wife with this? So five years in, you're just throwing money at this thing. So I was very fortunate to hit it out of the park three times in big ways. I didn't. I could afford it. Okay. Right? If I couldn't afford it, I couldn't have done it.

Sure. Right. Did you go in knowing that? Did you know, like, I'm going, this is going to be millions. I had no idea. Oh, you? Okay. I had no idea.

Wow. Because I don't know because I'm starting from what I, what I've, because I've been studying neurology since I was 13 years old since mom got sick. I mean, there had to been somebody, though, along the way that is just like, This is going to cost you millions of dollars. No, because no one would, because we didn't know what we were looking for. Nobody's ever tried to do it. Right?

And the few people, like, I know a lot of people in New York and Toronto. I mean, these are big financial centers. Like, hey, I got this idea. And they're like, what are you doing? Yeah. Are you insane? I'm like, possibly, but this is, I go, my question is what if? Yeah.

Right? So it's that much time, energy into it. And then the question is, so now what? How? The question is, how do I still help my mom? So then I go back to the first premise. If these waves are responsible for the physical response, right? Mm-hmm.

Can I move those waves in her network into normative function? And then what will that do? And what will happen then? Yeah. So now the question is, how do you move those? How do you move those waves? Okay. So where does that take you?

So then you're like, how do I do this, right? So. I mean, my first thought is pharmacology. That's what I'm thinking. But we've tried it. That's right. That's right. We've tried it for 25 years.

So you can't. I've tried nerve conduction. I've looked at it. And it didn't cross the chasm. It didn't, it didn't, the light at the end of the tunnel was always a train. Like, do you know how many times my mom and I felt like Wiley Coyote? You're going down that train track? You think it's daylight, but it's a train.

You're like, okay, this is not going to work. You've got to come back. Right? So now what? So the question is, how can you change waves? Right? So first principle says, how are they getting there now? How are waves? Put the word brain side to a second.

How are waves getting into our central nervous system now? Photons go through our eyes. They hit our optic nerve and then become a wave. Right. There's no projector in our head. Sound waves go through our ears, hit the audio nerves, then become waves. No subwifers, no mics, nothing in our head. what we're experiencing right now are just brainwaste.

Right? You might be there physically, but from my reality, you're existing in here as a wave. Sure. Okay. How else? Touch.

Touch. Yeah. Touch. And I don't know if you guys get it, but stuff comes into my head and I can't shake it. Sometimes you get a song in your head or something said, and it just percolates. And the thing that's renting space in my head is,

how do blind people read? So that right out the gates came to it. It was the download. It was like, bang. How do blind people read? Braille. How? 200 years old.

They're getting the waves to the touch. Braille's 200 years old. It's 200 years old. Oh, I don't know that. It's 200 years old. And it's reliable. I mean, they read very quickly. Consistent and reliable.

Yeah. How's that working? So then I go down that rabbit hole. How does this work? Right? And lucky for me, In 2010, these guys published a paper out of California, Dr. Julius and Dr. Papapupian, they discovered for the first time the ion channels that actually generate that microelectrical current from touch and texture and pressure.

And they term at Piazo 2. So we've known forever that our skin is sending information to our brain. We know this. Yeah. And the cool thing about Braille, you just said it's 200 years old, we've got to have a lot of data on Braille. We have none. You're kidding me. No, no, no, no, no.

The exact underlying mechanisms are unknown. Wow, for 200 years. Because it works. Because it works. Because it works. So who cares, right? Like, do you care how it works? No.

Okay, that's my point. Wow. Okay, good points. All we need to know. Right? This is the reality of it. Okay. Right?

But I'm curious. Like, how's that happening? And there's so much research coming in from all over the world about Page O2. These guys are just top-tier people. and these things over the not last 17 years, I'm going to jump forward. So Piazot2s are proving to be the primary communicators in our body

that generate electrical signals, but they're saying they're also responsible for now for also intercellular communication. Like these things are super critical. So any piece of tissue in our body that doesn't have PISA 2 is pretty much an unsensitized piece of flesh. If it doesn't have PesO2,

it's dead. So PSO-2? Yeah, P-I-E-Z-O-2. Okay, so these are ion channels. Okay, and this is basically communicating to the brain. So what the P-S-O-D-U-S, so as soon as we touch, that sensation you're feeling. Crystals being associated with that. Is that part of it?

O P-S-A-2 is just a channel, right? So it sparks because of touch, pressure, vibration. Okay. Right? So they surround the different receptors in our skin. And what are they using calcium? Is it calcium? Yeah, potassium, calcium.

All the electrical. But it's, and it's a microcurrent. Okay. Okay. And this is what's generous. I'm like, this is very curious. So at least now I know the mechanisms that are going to eventually send some signal to our mind. Do you go down the rabbit hole of like acupuncture and massage?

All of it. I've studied all of it. So, so along this way, because I'm reading everything, right? So I read a study coming out of the University of British Columbia, two doctors, Kennedy and English,

guys. And they've been mapping the mechanics. Now I'm studying we're skin receptors, right? This is where we're at now. This is the next thing. And they published a study now done in 2002. And they mapped out receptors on the bottom of the feet. And their conclusion is this, that these receptors play some role in

postural stability and balance. Oh, I'm like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, what's this? Oh, so you see balance. You see these receptors. Yeah. I go, I'm on track. Got it. Something's happening here.

So more research needs to be done. That's the famous line in all research, right? But more research. So I find one of these diggers. He's gone on to something else. And I said, hey, Doc, my name's Jay. I'm trying to do this thing. I read your research paper.

You said more research needs to be done. Do you have any more research? Hey, Jay, thanks for calling. We couldn't get any more funding on this scope. So we didn't do any more research on it. They were knocking on heaven's door as far as I was concerned. You see, academia is completely driven by funding for research. Right.

If they don't get the funding, the research stops. Yeah. Why? And not to speak, because I think it's important work with it is very important, but they're driven by the need to publish. Yeah. Not solve a problem. Engineers have a different mindset. We're like, okay, there's a problem.

Solve it. Solve it. Right? So I'm going to try to find all the variables as a part of the solution, the equation, that's going to lead to an answer that I'm. need. So I'm like, so now I went from brain waves to receptors and now I've condensed it down to the bottom of the feet. So I'm just going with the wave, right? I'm not fighting anything. I'm not resisting. I'm saying, okay, where's this? Wherever this leads, I'm going to go.

So now I end up at the bottom of the feet. I'm like, what's here? And the first thing that I deduce is I combine different receptors on the bottom of the feet because that's where the research was. It wasn't that I was so brilliant I said, oh, I'm going to start there. So the first product or the first iteration of the tech was actually stimulating the metatarsal area at the bottom of the foot. And it was isolated to that.

And the first thing that I made was a pad that would go into an insul or a pair of socks that could stimulate that metatarsal spot. How did it work? And it worked. What do you mean it worked? How? We could see improvements in balanced stability.

The first product I made was a pair of socks. And you tried this on mom and other people. Yeah, we have a study on it. Wow. 31% improvement. So people with issues with balance. With gait balanced ability, put the socks on and it improves. That 31%.

Wow. But more than that, I said, no, no, no, no, this is not enough. I need to see the neurological connection, right? So you would think that you're wearing socks. I'm wearing socks. I don't know if you're wearing socks, but we're always socks. Is that this shouldn't be registering as anything consistent in our somatosensory cortex because that's where all peripheral stimulation ends up when we process it first. That's where

the signal goes, right? So I reach out to the foremost EEG QEG expert in the world. His name is Dr. Robert Thatcher. He's retired now. He's in Tampa, Florida. He's written the literal textbook on QEG analysis. And I went down to Tampa and I said, but these socks are going to register a consistent signal on your software. Forget about my software. Because I can't use my software to validate. Right? Because people are like, well, this is your software. You could Jerry rig the software to say whatever you want. So I need to go to an FDA registered product software that's used by the Pentagon and NIS and all these other amazing places. And he's the guy. I go, he's like, that's not going to happen, Jay. Just save your money. And I'm like,

entertainment. You know, like, I'm willing, because this is the resistance I've had. You talk about skepticism, bro. Nobody wants to put their name beside it. Because what I'm proposing is so radical. So it's this relentlessness of pushing, pushing, pushing to saying, try it, try it, I'll pay for it, try it, I'll pay for it, try it. So he agrees. We brain map 35, 40 people. That pattern on the bottom of the feet is consistently registering on the somatosensory cortex. That's cool. Statistically significant. He's like, this is impossible. Why does he think it's impossible. Because it's not something that you,

you don't feel your socks, do you? No. Okay. It's not registering. It's just noise. Okay. He goes, this is a very discreet. And he goes in its,

he goes, and it's isolating to the bottom of the feet. Because the somatosanusory cortex has different regions that speak to different parts of the body. That's where the sensation. He goes, he goes, this is impossible. I go, I know,

but it's happening. That's cool. Consistently. So how did you design the socks? Like, I'm curious. So this is the thing. So now it's just math and iteration.

and why it cost so much damn money. Because you have to try it, you have to make it, and try it again, and run the EEG, and test it again, and test it again, and test it again, and again, and again. You're literally approaching this like an engineer. Yeah, how deep, how deep are we into the socks? I'm eight now.

I'm eight now, right? You got to make like a cool time line. It's about eight now, right? There's a timeline, and there's a timeline, and there's the casuals, like my parents think I've lost my mind. My siblings think I have lost my mind. My in-laws think I've lost my mind. The person that I give so much credit for supporting me as my wife.

And she's like, you do you. Because she's seen me do crazy things in my life. She goes, if you put your head to it, there's nothing you can't do. She goes, if you want to do this, she goes, I'm with you. That's great. Right. Otherwise, if she said, no, we're done, then I would have stopped. Yeah.

Wow. So you're creating these socks. You're changing them a little bit. You're testing with the EEGs. You're changing a little bit. And it's literally like an engineer does with a product. There's no choice. I mean,

how is that not a super profitable product by itself? It is. We sold 7 million pairs globally. Oh, shit. At $40. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

Okay. We're cooping some of this money. Yeah, a little bit. Okay, good. Okay, good. After the fact. After the fact. We were like 810 in.

By the time I sold the first one, we were 10 in. Wow. That's cool. Does it, does it, I couldn't let go of the idea. Yeah. I couldn't let go. Because I knew that if we could do it, we changed it well. Yeah.

Well, you got to be excited. You're getting closer and closer now at this point. And every day, you're getting a little bit closer. So you make a pattern. And people say, how did you figure out the pattern? So there's a couple of things. Number one, it's iterative. It's completely unintuitive of how this thing works.

You think it is the way it is, but it's not. And it's also completely proprietary, right? I mean, there's a lot of time, energy, money to figure out that algorithmic relationship between every sensor in our body has a complex relationship with all the sensors around it. Right. If nothing happens in isolation, nothing happens in isolation. And it's happening in real time. And our mind is so brilliant that you've got to just get it close. Because what are we doing?

All we're doing is calibrating a skin sensor. that's like a tuning fork that reminds the central nervous system what it's supposed to be, right? So if I have a tuning fork that's tuned to 440 hertz and you have one that's 440 hertz, but yours is 500 hertz and yours is 300 hertz, if I bang mine, only yours is going to vibrate. Yours is not going to vibrate and yours is not going to vibrate.

That's harmonic resonance. So all the patch does is when we put those ridges against our skin is we're creating a tension field around that area of the skin. Those receptors are firing. That's it. It harmonizes it. And it sends that, it collaborates that signal.

And our mind, we're not teaching anything to our mind. It already knows it. It's already there. It's pre-programmed. That's what the database told us that this is normative. It wants to get here anyway. How did you go from socks to patches

that you can wear anywhere on your body? Great question. I would think, oh, bottom of the foot makes sense. You stand on your feet. feet. Of course that has to do with balance. Are you thinking like, are there different parts of the body that are associated? No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, but also the 35 people you're testing this was, was this consistent across the board?

All of them. Every single one, 30, 100%. Same experience. Same experience. All registering. Okay, I'm like, okay, cool, this works. This is great. But what else can I find?

The question is, what else, what other patterns exist? So the socks is going. It's great. mom loves the socks. Her energy levels are higher. I can't get her out of the wheelchair because of entropy over time. It's just one of those things. But what else can I improve?

So I just start finding new neuro patterns. From all this data. From all this data. You're using your software to look through. I'm using the software. We have this one. What else is there? Then you say, oh, here's a pattern.

It registers a neural network. What does it do? Then you have to go out there and look at mainstream medicine and other research saying, okay, what could this likely be doing? Right? Somebody gives you the answer. He's like, okay, what possible thing could this be so that you've got to work backwards? Like, okay, these broadman areas relate to this. Right.

This frequency typically relates to this. Could it be this? This is why this thing is so iterative and so damn expensive. Because you don't know what you have until you get into it. Right. So then you have these complex patterns that to stimulate it, it's going to require very complex stimulation on the skin to do it. And I know the bottom of the feet is not going to offer me that. It's like, okay.

where can I do that? Is it even possible to do it on our larger dermis over our arms or our legs? And this is completely investigation. 2017, right before Christmas, a study comes out of Japan. This is mind-blowing. These guys published that if there's a sensation on our body and our skin, it's permanently imprinted on our somatosensory cortex, and it will recall it if that sensation is ever felt again. Meaning.

There's a memory. There's a permanent memory in the sematicensory cortex of skin sensation. Not my findings. And all of a sudden, light bulbs like, bing, bang, bang, bang, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean? And then I'm like, and then you have another down and say, but of course. When you were kids, you ever draw something on your siblings back and ask them what it was? How does that work?

How does that work? Think about it. We take all this stuff for granted. but our skin is in real time communicating messaging and memory and recall all the time. Of course. Right? I'm like, okay, so what does this mean? That means our all, it doesn't matter where it is.

All I have to do is generate that signal. How do I do it? Then you go deeper. And then you spend some more money and some more time and some more energy to see how we can collaborate it. And there's no way to knit these complex patterns into the socks. Number one, it's not possible to do it. Mm-hmm.

Second thing is, suppose we could, how we, when you put the socks on the washer and the dryer, they come out, how are you going to match them? Oh, yeah. There's a practical issue. Yeah. There's a product, practical doesn't make any sense. Like, the average person can't tell the difference between one pattern and another pattern. So how do I do that?

So the second thing that we looked for was that came out with sleep and then pain. that we could see clearly networks. Because there's so much research done in the neural matrix of pain. I was just going to say there's so much. There's so much. And the sleep networks are so well studied. So we can triangulate a lot more closely. Yeah, this is likely sleep.

This is likely the pain matrix. Right. So we just build on that. And we start eliminating and start codifying. And then we get to where we are today. So that's been the development process of this thing. But completely, and the thing that saved us ultimately was 3D printing. Because when we went to the patch, now I could just 3D print it out and test a lot quicker.

but the first five patches I had to do with micro tooling. Oh, you're kidding me. The first patch I made, the first patch I made, 1,200 iterations of micro tooling to get it right. Oh, my God. 1,200. 1,200 iterations of micotooling. Because what does they got to do?

It's got to work no matter which way you put it. Yeah, so upside down, left, right? So the complexity of overengineering is a couple. like, why do you go, why don't you, why do, why, you should, I should have to put it a certain way. I go, nobody will use it. Yeah. If it had to be directional or located in a certain place, this is dead. Mm-hmm.

Stick to the socks. So the thing, the reason is so complex, it has to be over-engineered to work no matter where you put it in whichever direction you put it. That's the complexity of it. Got it. Right? But that complexity to make requires really, precise microtooling

that you have to go over and over because you're not going to know until you make it. So for people listening, these are small patches that there's no chemical emblems, it's literally

just stick it on and you can see and kind of feel it looks like braille. It's almost like tiny tiny bit braille. It looks like braille on a lot. There's micro ridges. Yeah, it looks like braille on a Band-Aid. And that's what's creating the signal.

So, sorry to interrupt, but the correction is, the patch is not creating the signal. The skin sensors are creating the signal. The signal is endogenous, meaning our body is creating it. All that the patch is doing is creating tension on our skin and the receptors by putting it against it. Right? And then people ask, well, yeah, I can see you're putting it in the first time, but how is it still keeps working?

Yeah. Every movement. Now, how, so. I'm wearing one right now, right? I've already admitted how much I noticed a difference in the pain. how have you have you done tests or have you done studies where if I were to just push my finger there instead like what what what would that say would it do something different or would it do anything so surprisingly there's a lot of research on that because I think that has to do like acupuncture

massage massage acupuncture all of it so the natural thing is when we get hurt we rub our arm yeah we're interfering with that signal that's all we're doing that's all we're doing we're causing another signal just to cause static on it right that's why I see how it works by the way same thing it's just confusing signal well you're just confusing well you're just confusing Well, even when he said right now, like, that's such a, like, I mean, we do it with my son. Like, he hits him. Oh, just rub it. Of course. But of course. It's like you're fixing. No, no, no. It's, but this is, but we take it for granted.

Yeah, exactly. It's not like someone. What is the mechanism? I didn't read a research paper on that. It was like, you just do that. You've learned innately to just. Here's another thing. So you guys might be aware. Something called sarcastic resonance, right? Meaning that if you put noise against the faint signal, the signal becomes clearer. Hmm. It's mindless stuff we use the signal processing all the time. So if you don't know, if the signal is too faint,

put more noise into it in the surrounding area, and the signal becomes clearer. Right? So imagine, here's an analogy. I don't know if it's right. If you have a piece of white paper and you take a glue stick and you write the letter A on it, you might not be able to see it because it's so faint.

But if you put sand on it, you're going to see it. Right? Very similar. Yeah. So the more noise. as you add to any signal, it's going to become cleared. I didn't figure this out. This has been around a long time.

Right? So that iterative process, to that point, yeah, there's been a lot of research has been done on confusing the signal or entering a new signal, right? And this is what neural implants do. What do do they put them in your spinal column or they put them, attached them to your vagus nerve, and they're just zapping the nervous. They're trying to interrupt a signal, right? the concept with the patch is so simple, right?

Because what we know is the skin can read. Braille proved that. So all that matters is what you're writing on it. Right? And the evidence says, yeah, it's reading it. And the output is there. We can see it in the EEGs. We can see it in the QEGs.

And we can see it in the functional output of the studies that we do of what is the actual effect of this thing, right? Did we know, that I know was going to do? this? I had no idea. Because I didn't know what the end result was going to be. It led here by just following what the body was responding to. Right. There's a natural science to our body that if we listen to it and we agree with it, it's like, this is what ends up at. People say, well, what if you're wrong? I go, then I'm wrong. When you did the first studies on actual outcome, in other words, I see that this is changing the EEG from more pain to

less pain. Yeah. But does this actually translate to the person saying, I feel less pain? When did you first start saying that? That was, so getting, see, EEGs are easy to do, relatively speaking, right? Because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's harmless. You can do it. You can measure different EEG readings.

You can run analysis on it. But to actually study a live patient base, you need to work with a CRO. You need to work with a pain specialist. It's something to understand how pain works and how it's measured and how it's regulated. And it was next impossible to get somebody to work with us. Why? Because what I'm proposing is so ridiculous.

Nobody wants to put their name to it. So I'm like, okay, this is not going to work. I'm going to pay you more. How about that? No, it didn't work. It's like, we tried everything. Right. So I'm like, okay, how do we solve this problem? So, again, first principles, who else is doing this? So there's a menthol patch company, it's the largest pain patch company in the world. It's owned by a Japanese

pharmaceutical company. And I said, who did their study? And I found their study. Then I found out who the CRO was of that study. And I called them. Called Peter Hurwitz at Clarity Research. And I said, hey, Peter, my name's Jay. I made a topical patch. It's non-transdermal. Helps with pain, sleep, da-da-da-da. He listens. He's like, send me something. He goes, I don't know. He goes, send me some product. I sent him the pain pass to sleep patch. He calls me two weeks later. He goes, I tried your sleep patch.

I'm interested. He goes, but I need to meet you. Are you real? He comes to Toronto. He's on the East Coast. Comes and he visits. We spend a day together. He goes, I can't guarantee it.

He goes, but we're going to call Jeff Gooden right now. Jeff Gooden is a professor of anesthesiology, the University of Miami. He did that other study. He was a lead investigator. And I go, who do you want to? I go, that guy. The guy who's the known. expert is the guy that I want to do the study.

I'm not going to go to some guy who doesn't know anything about this. He knows the category, and he's a professor of anesthesiology at the Miller School of Medicine. I go, yeah, that's the guy. He calls Dr. Guden from my office. He says, Jeff, I'm with a prospective new client. We want to do a pain study. He goes, high level explains what it is. And Jeff Gudin says to him, let him know that no matter what the findings are,

If I do the study, I'm publishing it. It's going to cost them money. Big risk. It's going to cost them money, but we're going to publish whatever we find. And Peter goes, he says he's going to publish whatever he finds. I go, I hope so. I go, I'm in. And that's how it started.

And that was the first study. Was it on pain or sleep? It was on pain and sleep. And how much, how much, talk about how much studies cost to run because people are I've got 16 peer-reviewed studies published, six indexed on PubMed, another coming this year, we're about $9 million in since 2020. Now talk about the first results you had in the first study, which was pain and sleep. What did you say?

50% reduction in perceived pain. A 70% reduction in interference scores. How much is the pain interference in your quality of life? That was the first study. We saw, and this was pain that was over four, baseline. down to two in a bit. On the sleep study, we saw people reduce their time to fall asleep by about 50% and sleeping 25% longer, waking up refreshed.

The part that really changed a quality and life issue in the sleep study was this. These are all people that had bad or horrible sleep. At the end of the two-week studies, 85% have good or great sleep. 85%? 85%. Before the study, 85% were waking up three times during the night. At the end of the study, 85% are only waking up one time during the night. Wow.

Complete changing quality of life. Crazy. Right? And we're like, oh, this is exciting. How pumped was he after he did this? Yeah. How are these, these receivers? He's got to be blown away.

He goes, you want to go public? I'm like, no. I'm not. Because, listen, and not in a bad way. It's like you need to talk to my friends a big farmer. I go, no, no, no, no, no. I go, this is a whole different deal. I go, this is not the, this is the path before the pill.

This isn't, this isn't a deal to sell out to big pharma. That's not the plan, right? Because that's not in line with what I'm trying to do. And I don't have anything against big pharma. They solve a lot of problems for a lot of people, but it's not the road that I'm on. People are like, oh, you want to pick a fight with food for me? No. I want to give people options.

Check free options. So these, this data, which is crazy, by the way, 50% reduction. it's like that's that's a pharmaceutical territory. Just for people who aren't familiar. Yeah, it's a big deal. Big deal. Sleep, that's a big deal. And so the first one was observational.

And this is what got me on the phone with you. Well, what is, what is, Doug pulled this up? What is, what is the reduction on the studies on Advil? It's not more than that. No. No, it's similar. Yeah, I was going to say, it's got to be, it's better than the menthol patch that that's for sure. It's, yeah.

And this is 24 hour relief. Oh, by the way, the relief is 24 hours. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't wear off. And this is not. not pharmaceutical. There's no drug. And doesn't contradict with anything you're doing.

So here's the impact. Yeah, look at 50. 400 milligrams of Advil provides at least 50% pain relief. Yeah. You're talking about the same wheelhouse. And you can't keep popping Advil's for 24 hours. Right. I'm just saying.

Yeah. Right? So this is the impact. Right? If we talk about impact, for me, it's all about impact. How many lives can we impact in a positive way? People that drive heavy machinery for a living, they can't take pain pills. It makes them drowsy.

We all know what it does to your kidneys. We all know what it does to your liver. This is not new. This is not data that I'm making up, right? But people need relief. And the reason we have an opioid crisis is because people had pain. That's how it started. Right?

We will do anything to get out of pain, right? Because it's the great thief of life, right? And so we do that. Then you think it'll look at sleep. There's a melatonin crisis in this country right now that no one's talking about. There will be a melatonin epidemic. in the coming months, coming years as big as the opioid crisis.

People are giving it to kids. Yeah. And the doses are crazy. It's out of hand, man. You know this, right? Yeah, that's crazy. Why? Because, oh, can't put the kid down.

I'm like, really? That's the answer. Dose your kid with melatonin? That's not the plan. So first is pain, then you go and sleep. What is the next? Okay. So then we said, okay, it's great.

We have an observation study. Then we have to do a control study. Okay. Then we didn't say, no, no. I said, so now you've got to pay with, now you got to pay it again. study with a placebo versus...

Okay, that's done. Okay, great. Then we did stress. We did the piece patch study. 33% reduction in perceived stress and a 24% improvement in mental health factors. Without a pill. Yeah.

Big. Okay, great. Then we did that control on that. And then we did a complete RCT study with actual functional movement with the pain patch again. So another one. Another one. Right.

Because, you know, God forbid the two were a fluke. Right, right, right. And these are all P values at zero zero, one, which is the gold standard of research. That's right. Like, why do you have to do it? I go, because I'm up, I'm going uphill. If I was given the same leeway as nutrition, a supplementation,

I wouldn't have to do what I do. Yeah. Right? But because the world is completely unfamiliar with what I'm proposing, the evidence of proof is, and I don't, listen, this is what I chose to do. Jay, it's the only one. way, if it's the only way I would have had you on the show. But this is what you're going to do.

If you had no studies, I would have totally blown you off. I'm just being totally honest. It's so out there and so wild sounding. But you forget that I'm an engineer. Yeah. Right? You're the same way. I'm like, yeah, don't feed me shit.

I'm sorry, but I don't. I'm the hardest person to get over on the math. Which makes you the perfect person to do this. People give me some, I go, this is not real. Like, I see problems in Excel spreadsheets and production. I'm like, yeah, that's wrong. How do you know? I go, this is what I do.

That's wrong. You can put a spreadsheet the size of this table in front of me. I'll look at it for 30 seconds and go, yeah, see that data? That number there? It's off. They go, why? I go, I don't know, you wrote it, but that's off. So I got to ask you this because this is totally radical, totally different from anything else.

The data is wild and you have six published studies now? No, no, 16 published studies. Excuse me. Six on PubMed. Three more coming. So reviewed. And so this is all. Peer reviewed, published.

But this is actually better. So we've presented our research at 25 of the leading medical congresses in the world. I was just going to ask you, because this is a totally new, brand new area of research, medicine, science. But it's growing. Okay. So because of you now are lots of people now investing time and energy? Yeah, so many. Really?

So many. We get calls for collaborations from big pharma. from universities. There's a lot of things happening in the background. And I said, listen, I all, my job and my role is impact. What I'm not going to do is give away, right? Because like, well, you have to, I go, listen, there's things we'll do and things we won't do.

Right? I got here without you. I'm going to get there without you. Plus, you're 40 million in. They've got to make your money back. Yeah. There's an economic engine to this, right? But this is the thing.

The impact is real because of the response we've had with the product. We have millions of users across the world. The product's available in 35 countries. I tell you, But if it wasn't, because when you sent us, when you guys sent us the patches, I put on focus first because I just think it's fun. So let's see if I get more focus. And I thought I felt something. I'm like, more focus.

But you get in your own head. It's all in your head. Yeah. It's all in your head. Yeah. But literally it's all in your head. Right, right, right. And then, you know, Adam's trying out the pain one.

And I try the sleep one out. And I come back, I'm like, I'm telling you guys, I think this is crazy. And then I look at the study. I'm like, this is wild because it's not like a little bit of a difference. No, it's significant. It's a really big difference in the data. It's statistically significant and it's clinically significant. That's where the rubber hits the road.

Explain the difference. So statistical significant is a math thing. Yeah, it's like, is it more than 4%. More than the more than the... Is it this? Like, it's with a P value. So statistical significance is P value. Right.

Do you have enough people to get you a P value that's strong, right? And I told the guys, I go, listen, we got to get 0.005 is what's required, but I want 0.01. Why? For me, again, it's detached from the outcome. If I don't get the result I want, that means I got to go back and redesign it to make it better. So what if the study hasn't come back? I go,

that's just the answer that I didn't design it right. I know that this is possible because of what the EEGs. I know I can get it there. I just designed the right stimulation. So I got to go back and I got to do a better job, right? Or a newer job. And that gives me so much freedom to not worry about what the outcome of the study is going to be. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Right. I'll just do, I'll go make a better mouse trap. and you do it again, right? But if I was a public company or I took investments from people, all of a sudden it's a different game. Now you're answering to different stakeholders. Talk about... Just because we have a fitness...

Because you guys have a lot of different patches. Talk about the athletic performance. So that's the last thing that just dropped, the victory patch. Okay. So what does a study show on that? Because it's obviously a fitness audience. So we did this at the University of Arizona with the athletic teams. Done by Dr. Mark Saker, who's head of the medical director,

of athletics at University of Arizona. So we went, okay, where would it be cool to do this study? So now we're getting traction because we have studies, right? Now we're getting people that want to do studies. Weird how that happened. Right? You're excited about it, yeah. Yeah, it's, well, because if it, because he was skeptical too. He's like,

I go, I go, Mark. But what if you're the guy that brings this to the world with me? He goes, yeah, because I'm not interested. He goes, talk to me. So I spent days with him walking him through step by step. He goes, this makes logical sense. I go, If it makes logical sense, there's no harm.

We're going to get the IRB. Everything's done. We do this. So this is what we found with their D1 athletes. A 5 to 8% performance improvement in lower extremity power, knee extension, power output. Wow. And we see a statistically significant improvement in body symmetry, meaning weak side becoming as balanced as the dominant side.

We're talking about 5 to 8% in elite athletes. Yeah. Just for people listening. Like, get this like, to let that settle in. The best supplement ever would produce like 4% like if you're lucky of some kind of a difference. Like this, that's like a big, for a D1 athlete, it's a big deal. These guys are. They're already checking all the boxes.

They're peak. Yeah, yeah. Best training, best nutrition, best coaching, and the best genetics. I mean, it is what it is. You don't get to Arizona, University of Arizona playing on their team if you suck. Like, I mean, you're in the program. Yeah. Right.

They're already doing all the big rocks. They're doing everything. Yeah. And they have for a long time. Like, you can't walk off the out of your bedroom and say, oh, I'm going to go play for a university of Arizona. That doesn't happen. No. There's a decade before that.

Right. Of commitment. Right. Right. And if we can see the change there, I know it's going to be a much bigger change. Yeah, average people. For the average person. People say, why?

I go, it's real simple. We adapt downwards with our neurology. Yeah. Because we can't consciously speak to those systems, right? Who taught us coping mechanisms when we were kids? Yeah. Anybody? Yeah.

No. Nobody. And stress is the number one performance robber there is. And it's the number one health issue, and by the way, in collegiate sports. Right. It's everything. Stressed out. Right?

But if we want to take a little sheer performance, this is what we saw. So we've taken this. We've presented it to all the teams in the NFL. Half the teams are on the product. Really? Yeah. we've taken it to dozens of teams in the NBA, dozens of teams in Major League Baseball.

We will be in every locker room by the end of the year. Can you stack patches? Yes, absolutely. And there's no, it doesn't take away from the other path. No, no, because remember, all these networks are firing at the same time anyways. Oh, true. They're all different highways. They're all different.

They're all. So I'm thinking for an athlete, it's like peace, pain, focus. You know, focus, ignite. And you're just like, let's go. So the stack that, you know, the, because you know my friend, Jordan, like, he talks to a lot of elite athletes, right? Like yourselves and everybody else. And I go, you want to start your day and physical performance is your thing? Put on the boost patch for energy.

Slap on the victory patch. And if you have a cerebral role to play, put on the focus patch, right? If you're just hitting people, maybe you don't need it. I'm sure you have, I mean, I don't know if you've done these yet, but have you done studies on stacking these to see if there's a cumulative effect? There is, there is a cumulative effect. Okay. Why? Because neuroplasticity is real.

When I started this, everything that neuroplasticity was voodoo. Yeah. So, but when you get your neural network into a better baseline, it holds longer. Because that's the new normal.

So over time, what you find is your baseline is higher even without the patch, which is the beauty. That's cool. Right? What we're working against, though, is life,

injury, illness, stress, our environment is always compromising our neural networks. So what the patch is a good restore mechanism. Bring it back to normal. Bring it back to normal. normal. When we start building on that new baseline, that becomes our new baseline over time. That's cool. Yeah, it's great. That's really cool. When I was thinking about this,

something came to mind. Did you look into any of the studies with like Canisio tape and like the Yeah, all of it. Yes. So there's no, I don't want anybody to get mad, but there is no study that shows any efficacy for Canisio tape. Wow. With athletic performance. Yeah, but you still feel something. No, but because they're, because I believe they're not looking at the right things. Right. But this is the analogy that I give you. When I talk to sports medicine people, sports chiropractor, sports physios, is Kinesiotap has been around 30 years.

How does it work? Well, canisiotap is general stimulation, general signaling. Right. Because it's flat. We've taken the same contact and had a very specific signaling to it. It's the same pathways. It's the same receptors. It's much more fine-tuned.

This is just specific. Honed in on that signal. It's more honed in on it. Like, oh, like, okay, now I get it. I've got, like, like I said, this is so elegantly simple. That we try to overcomplicate it. It's not that hard.

What's the response since you went? How long have you guys been to market? We launched January 14th, 23. Okay. So it's only been a few years. Three years. What's the response been like? It's been phenomenal.

It's been phenomenal. We, part, it's got to be just convincing knuckleheads like us. Yeah, exactly. That's got to be the, to get in the door. No, but I know. But listen, so use your words. To get to the knuckleheads like you, I needed the nine million in studies. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But this is, but everything's a roadmap, right? I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, flowchart everything. Step by step by step by step by step, right? So, we launched two studies.

First year, we did 60 million. Second year, we almost doubled 100. You mean sales? Sales. Third year, 200. We'll touch half a billion dollars this year. Wow. And so, and great repurchase rate.

It's phenomenal. Yeah. Listen, if something that doesn't interfere with your lifestyle, it's easy to use, it's not in. No side effects. No side effects. No side effects. You can put it in your bag. Doesn't matter.

Take it out. It doesn't expire. You travel with it. Anywhere you want to go. Yeah. No issues. So talk about the ones you have. You have pain, sleep, athletic performance.

What else? Stress. Mood. We have immune support. Okay. We have men's health support. So that's like what? Libido, sex performance.

Yeah. Okay. What do we cover off? There's 15 different solutions We have Zen, which is flow state. Zen's like one of our last products and probably one of our best selling products now. Okay.

It gets you into flow in 15 minutes. Really? That's cool. Wow. Yeah, the golfers are losing their mind. God, how cool would that be to do that with Brain FM? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Listen. Combo, yeah. So my friend Jordan was at this crazy golf tournament this past weekend and just given the Zen patch out to all the golfers. They're like, dude, I'm in flow. I'm in zone. That's great.

In 15 minutes? it's epic right the sure patch for motion sickness and nausea there's also I can also imagine there's no issues with giving this like with age issues so yes and no oh good okay tell me yes and no there's no issue but kids are stupid

they put everything in their mouth don't have them eat it yeah it's a problem yeah I get a one-year-old granddaughter I think Rosie no like it's something like okay let's just keep it 12 at But even 12 and up, what else do we have there?

Like, you know, we talk to large sports organizations who are working with young kids, right? Yeah. Supplementation, there's risk. Yep. There's dosage risk. Yep. There's a lot of things. Medication.

There's a lot of things, right? So here's something that you can actually give to somebody to use. The worst that's going to happen, two things. Then I'm going to get a benefit. So we have a 95% efficacy rate. So there's 5% of people that don't see a response. Okay. And then we'll talk about why that is.

And some people allergic to the adhesive. nothing I can do with that. Yeah, sure. Right. So let's talk about that 5% why some people don't see as a good result as somebody else.

There's three things from my experience in building this thing that I've noticed. First is where is anybody's baseline? Where are they in their health and wellness journey? Right?

What are they dealing with? Right? Are they barely surviving? Are they thriving? Or somewhere in between? That plays a role. The second thing that plays a role is something that I call neuropotential.

What is the potential of their neurology, the central nervous system combined with the peripheral nervous system. Got it. How well can it perform? Okay? And the third thing is neuroefficiency. How efficient is their nervous system stimulation?

Those three things combined together is generally dictates the response somebody is going to get. And we're like, well, that's the logical. I go, I know, but if I don't tell them, then they go, well, I didn't get the same response. Sal did, well, yeah, well, look at you. I mean, there's two different people. 95% efficacy is like, like you can't expect it. Yeah, that's true. So is it more or less common that somebody who is really unhealthy is going to feel the difference or not feel the difference? So the healthier you are, the more likely you are? Or like, what's the correlation? It depends. Oh, it depends. It depends. Right. So we don't talk about conditions, right? So we're classified as a medical, as an FTA, as a class one medical device. Okay. Right. So which means general health and wellness for the large part. We could talk about the thing that's changing. So the study shows pain relief. The study shows pain relief. The study. shows sleep. But you can't say this is for this disease. Migraine or this is for. No.

Right. Right. Why? Because now we're getting into classification of a condition and a disease, which we don't want to be into. Right. So people say, look, because what are you dealing with? I always says, what are you dealing with? Eaks and pains, try the freedom patch. Got it. You know, sleep. Well, sleep is not a disease, right? But if you need better sleep, do this. Stress is not a disease. Right. You can have stress. It's not a disease. We all have stress in one way or another, right? So we're very, because I don't want to cause problems for myself for the company by going down roads that I don't think about. Have you thought about looking at appetite suppression? Uh, yeah, looking at it right now. Yeah. So we know that's, that's huge. Ignite Patch does

it. But we, the study's on right now. So we, we did a small pilot as it published. We saw about a 20% improvement in RMR with the ignite patch. And we see. Wait, wait, 20% improvement with resting metabolic rate? Yeah. So someone's metabolism got faster. Yeah. By 20%? Yeah. In the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in a study? It's, it's on right now. Wow.

Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, that's crazy. It's nuts. And, in, in, in, in, and, in, and, in, and, in, the, the feedback we're getting from the people to study is, they're not hungry. Also.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Hmm. Well, that's wild. But again, until it's published. Yep. We, uh, we, uh, we keep going.

Yeah. It never ends, right? For me, it never ends. Like, when we started, the patch were two inches by two inches. and I found they were too big. So we spent another $6 million to make them inch and a half by an inch and a half. So the money goes fast. It goes really fast because, listen, if you commit to something,

you have to commit to the innovation, right? There's an inflection point in every business. There's an inflection point in any industry. And the only thing that fixes an inflection point is solving two issues. The only way to do it is either give new value to your current customers or create new value for a new base of course. customers. Right.

What that involves is innovation, right? There's a reason there's a new iPhone every year and everybody buys one. Right. Right. We're all suckers. But the reality is there's some feature there that people want. That's right. Right.

And they brilliantly designed it that way for sure. But listen. But even what you guys, you gentlemen do, right? The iteration of your of your production. Sure. Of your messaging. Of your commitment to yourself. There's a transformation.

I saw those pictures outside. Yeah. Right? You're different dudes now than you were when you started. Well, this is... Smarter, wiser, better. I mean, look at this place. This is a million-dollar studio.

Well, this is, it's so fascinating, so interesting. If it wasn't for all the studies, I wouldn't have given it a second thought, but the studies are real. People can look them up, you guys. They're on the website. You can find them. They're real studies.

The results are legit and they're repeated. We've experienced, the effects and I mean it works it's really wild it's crazy it's a completely different category it is invented a completely matter here thank you for saying that and so so the last person so for me it's always about the best make the best thing I focused on that work with the best people hire the best people make the best product right and and so in health and wellness the last percentile is physicians. That's where people go to get better.

So my goal was to be the number one drug-free wellness solution recommended by doctors. So as of this morning, we're over 5,000 MDs in America recommending our product from their offices. That's great. Wow. That's cool.

Why? Steady cell. What you said is the reference point, right? Without that, none of that happens. No, no, true. Right? It doesn't work. Yeah.

But you've just created a. completely new category. I'm sure other people are going to try. Yeah, they're going to turn through. They come and they try and then it doesn't work. But you've patented your stuff. We've protected ourselves really well. Yeah, like maniacally well.

And then so they try to copy. If they don't copy, they try to buy us. And so we're not for sale. Will you remain private? Always. That's cool. This is a legacy. That's cool.

Yeah, my son and my daughter both work with me. So they're well in tune in terms of what needs to happen here. The goal is to bring drug-free wellness to the world. right what the world is experienced five years ago four years ago I'm not down with that people need a choice

yeah right option do what you want but give me a choice just give me a choice and then we'll go from there it's the no choice part that I don't roll with same no choice we're talking about right now

well Jay this has been awesome thank you man and I think our audience is going to be convinced like we are remarkable. Thank you. The amount of energy, time, and money you spent to do this really blows me away. That's crazy. Lots of dedication.

That's crazy. It's a lot of time. A lot of, you're talking years and years and years, tens of millions of dollars. Studies alone are super expensive. But you've literally created a completely new category of treating issues and symptoms. This is a complete new category. Well, listen, really, you're so kind to say that. And thank you.

And it is a category of one. There's nothing like it. No. This is the reality. 85% of people in any doctor's office in America are there for one of three reasons. Some kind of aches and pain. Poor sleep, low energy. Yeah.

Let's solve that. Let's make impact, right? And so, you know, meeting all of you guys and South Tad on the phone, I mean, this is, you guys are the cohorts that we want on our side, right, to bring this message to the world. Because it's all education. Yeah. It's all awareness and education, right? So let's do it, man.

Let's get it out to the world. you coming on and I know that I told you you come on and I question you and have you talk about all the study. But, you know, like when we talked on the phone, you were able to provide all that stuff and it wasn't like I made it easy, but you showed me all the stuff. Yeah, no fluff, man. Yeah, dude, so great job. Well, thanks. But for me, it's like, listen, it's just like, let's talk about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. There's things I don't know. Why does that do? I go, I don't know. Yeah. You're not BSing. This is legit. You've got the stuff to back it up, the data to back it up. That's the part that's the part of people don't understand is you got to do that. Yeah. Right? You got to do that.

Especially when you're thinking, well, here's this magic patch. Yeah. And by the way, there's nothing in it. By the way, it's like,

oh, shit, here we go. Yeah. Like, you know, people are like, this is not a Harry Potter patch. Like, this is science.

There's no hocus pocus here. And like, read the research. Nobody reads it, by the way. Yeah. No, that was the first thing I looked at. Yeah, we do.

Yeah. No, you know, people ask for the magnet thing. People ask me, go, how does this magnet thing work? I go, about this. Just this.

Right. But the category is blowing up. So did you hear would Nike launch that shoe, the mine shoe? No. Oh, yeah. They got those little stimulators in the, yeah, I go, I did that 15 years ago. I go, you guys are so old.

Right? But even, but they still don't get it down. And you know what they don't have? Research. Yeah. Do you still sell the socks or do you sell off? Oh, so you do still sell socks. We do great.

Yeah, I think that's cool. That's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome sauce. It's really, I just love seeing the change on people. For me, that's the thing. Right. You know, he goes, oh, you must be, you know, made so much money. And I go, we put it right back in the business.

Yeah. There's no other choice. Yeah. Right. If we want to get this to where we believe it can be. I mean, you pioneered something is what you've done. You really pioneered something. Well, the first guy through the door always has a bloody nose, so I got that too.

Well, hey, man. Very cool. Thanks for coming on. This was really, really awesome. Really appreciate what you're doing. You guys. And like I said, one of my favorite things about what we do, regardless of how. What a paradigm is I love getting my paradigm shattered.

I love getting my mind changed. You totally did it. Thank you. So, yeah, great job, dude. Thank you, dude. Appreciate you guys all. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump.

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