Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2912: SS-31 Peptide Benefits: Why Ben Pakulski Says This Is the Most Exciting Peptide Right Now

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

In this episode the guys sit down with IFBB pro bodybuilder and science-driven performance coach Ben Pakulski for a wide-ranging conversation on peptides, performance, identity and the hard lessons of a 20-year bodybuilding career. Ben breaks down the peptide landscape — why he's optimistic about the science but deeply cautious about sourcing (90%+ of research peptides come from China with no quality guarantees), the most exciting peptides he's currently working with including SS-31 for mitochondrial repair, and myostatin inhibition and where the science actually stands. They also cover Ben's origin story — going from 160 pounds at 17 to 240 by 19 purely naturally, getting cut from a baseball team at 12 and how that shaped everything, the culture of his Toronto gym and what hard training actually looks like, the Arnold Classic story where he competed sick all night with vomiting and diarrhea and still got second. Ben shares how bodybuilding was never his identity — just something he did — and why leaving the sport felt like relief rather than loss. They also dig into GLP-1 use, the looming frailty epidemic, genetic testing for coaching, why the guys fixed their training plateaus through gut health and hormone optimization, and why Ben thinks the hard work of getting fit is the actual prize — not the physique.   MAPS Upper Lower: https://mapsupperlower.com Code: LAUNCH for 40% off. Two days left on this offer. Four day split, male and female versions, workout videos and live coaching with Cole.   SPONSORS Ketone IQ: https://ketone.com/MINDPUMP 30% off subscription orders plus a free gift with your second shipment. Also available at Target stores nationwide.   GUEST LINKS Ben Pakulski: https://www.benpakulski.com Ben's Podcast — Muscle Intelligence: available on all major platforms Instagram: @bpakfitness   LINKS Mind Pump Store: https://mindpumpstore.com Maps Fitness Products: https://mapsfitnessproducts.com Instagram: @mindpumpmedia 0:00 - Intro 1:58 - The peptide landscape — incredible potential, serious sourcing risk 5:14 - SS-31 for mitochondrial repair and why Ben's dad is on 10mg three times a week 9:04 - Mots-C vs SS-31 — why people respond differently and what might explain it 10:17 - Myostatin inhibition — what the science actually says about building muscle without training 13:32 - Gene therapy for myostatin in Mexico and what Ben's friends actually reported 15:28 - Why putting on muscle through shortcuts doesn't build confidence — only the process does 17:54 - Why physical stress and psychological stress are disconnected in modern life — and why that matters 22:05 - Getting cut from a baseball team at 12 and how that shaped everything 24:06 - The four master skills Ben teaches his kids — body, finances, communication, emotions 25:51 - How Ben transitioned out of pro bodybuilding without an identity crisis 28:58 - Going from 160 to 230 pounds naturally at 17 — the real story 33:01 - Getting a Muscle Tech contract at 19 by just walking around a show 38:03 - Training culture at Gold's Venice vs his Toronto gym — what hard work actually looks like 43:36 - Why headphones in the gym killed community — and why CrossFit understood something bodybuilding missed 48:24 - The Arnold Classic sick story — vomiting all night, competing anyway, getting second 55:28 - First steroid cycle at 19 and what it actually did 1:02:43 - How Ben's business pivoted through Covid and why coaching replaced digital programs 1:06:32 - Warrior and monk — how Ben learned to wield intensity as a tool rather than let it control him 1:13:06 - GLP-1 use in bodybuilding, the looming frailty epidemic and the gut motility problem 1:23:07 - Genetic testing for coaching — seeing constraints before clients hit them 1:31:05 - Sal's gut health and testosterone story — 15 pounds of muscle from a parasite cleanse

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump with your hosts. Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded Fitness Health and Entertainment Podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, we bring back IFBB Pro Bodybuilder and Science Fanatic, Ben Pekolsky. Always a good time with Ben.

Very smart guy. Obviously he knows how to build muscle better than almost. almost anybody. So we know you're going to love this episode. By the way, there's only two days left for the MAP's upper lower sale. This is a bodybuilding split, four days in the gym. There's a men and women's version. It's 40% off for the next two days.

Go to Mapsupperlower.com. Use the code launch for the 40% off discount. This episode is brought to you by a sponsor, ketone IQ. So check this out. When you get on a ketogenic diet and your body and brain are running on ketones, you notice a few things. one of them is you're sharper. You can think faster.

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It's amazing. I use two to three a day. Go to ketone.com slash mind pump. On that link, you can get a massive discount. All right, here comes a show. All right, real quick, if you love us like we love you, Why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats,

mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to mindpumpstor.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Well, Ben, welcome back to the show, dude. It's been a while, man.

You guys have come a long way. We've missed you. Yeah, man. It's awesome to see how far you guys have come, and yet you're still the same. Yeah, I appreciate. That's a compliment, actually, especially from someone like you.

I love watching your stuff. You're one of the smartest people out there. Definitely the smartest bodybuilder, but I said one of the smartest people because I just say smartest bodybuilder. Is that a lot? It doesn't be much. Thanks, so.

But definitely the most. You got to get the jab in. It's got to get the jab in. But definitely one of the smartest people out there. And since the last time we talked, a lot has changed in our space. When we first met, which was a while ago,

the use of peptides, the science around peptides, and just because these new interventions were fringe. They were kind of fringe. We talked about, a little bit off air back then. I remember you and I actually had a conversation.

And now it's like all over the place. It's like a big deal. So I'd like to start there with you with how you feel about that whole space of peptides and what you're seeing and how they're working with people and some of the research that you've seen around them. It's the greatest opportunity in performance that exists and a really scary thing at the same time, I think. because the possibility within peptides of healing,

of improving performance, of eradicating potentially illness and disease is like nothing else with minimal side effects. However, the current landscape that we're in, I believe, a lot of people are going to hurt themselves because the unregulated nature of these things,

like I forget the exact percentage, but it's something like 90 to 93% of these things are coming in from China, and we have no idea what's coming in. So, like, if it's the peptide itself that we're administering, you're probably going to get a lot of great benefits, but we don't know if there's long-term negative effects. We don't know if there's other toxins coming in with that,

your LPS, your heavy metals. So, like, I'm super cautious with people. Like, I'm not someone who's going to get behind it and say, hey, everyone should be taking peptides until you know the source, for sure. Like, at very least start there. Most people buying these research use only peptides. I just can't advocate for it, man. Like, unless I know exactly where it's coming from,

and I know that I can follow supply chain and know the API is great, Because, you know, I've actually studied this a lot, way more than I care to talk about. And there's a lot of places where it can break down in the supply chain because everyone wants to cut corners. And in the peptide space, you're getting a lot of weird people. A lot of, like, these people are like, they like to live on the fringe, you know, not the people using it, but the people who own the companies.

So, like, they're looking for ways to cut corners. They're looking for ways to make more money. And I'm like, you know, if you're paying $7 for a bottle of something from China, like, how good do you think it possibly is, right? So the average bottle costs from, you know, you'll know this if you see any Chinese suppliers between $7 and $15. The margins are crazy on what they're making. So I give you 10 suppliers right now in China that are between $7 and $15.

They're charging one to 300 online in research use only. And you're like, how good could this be, you know? So I'm cautious, but incredibly optimistic about the whole space. I'm a massive fan of specific peptides, and I'd love to get into those. But I also want to start off with like, I don't want to just make it sound like a panacea because it's not. I have a client who got heavy metal toxicity from peptides. Really?

Yeah, yeah. He got, like, pretty severe mercury. Mercury and aluminum, I think he had from, he was using peptides. But the thing is, with peptides, you're not using one, right? You're using five. Right. And I was like, man, he didn't, I don't know where they were coming from. This is before he started working with me.

I was like, man, that's a big problem. So, yeah, I don't want to be the advocate that says everyone should be using them. Although, I hope in the future that that is the case. And we're all getting from great sources. How did he know he had heavy metal talk? Was it through testing or symptoms or both? Testing. Yeah.

Did he have symptoms of heavy metal? Yeah. Again, this was prior to work with me. He came to me sort of like at the tail end of his diagnosis. So symptoms just like terrible, low energy, like hard time sleeping, gut issues, like diarrhea, like frequent digestive distress. So like a lot of weird things happening in his body. And you did the protocol.

Uh-oh. Heavy metals. And was that the first place you looked, the peptides? Uh, he looked there. So he came to me when it was like, because he had been tested maybe six or 12 months prior, and he said he was all clean and then he did this extensive protocol with another coach. And then suddenly, yeah. Wow.

Which peptides are the most exciting? You said there were a few that you really like. A lot of them, right? A lot of them have the potential to be exciting. Um, you know, everyone knows the basic ones, your BPC, your TB, and I'm super excited about those. But the one that I'm sort of like most excited about right now, other than, you know, your, your GLP's like your RETA, SS31. I don't know if you've tried it, but it's a remarkable product, remarkable supplement, like brain benefits, energy benefits. I've done quite a bit of a deep dive on the research there,

and it just seems amazing to me. So I know that one's going to be a pharmaceutical in short time, but I think that one's a... Which one is that one? So it improves mitochondrial function. What's interesting about that one is, so I've used both that and MOTC, and I noticed MOTC. It did not notice the SS31. DOS. I don't remember what the dose was, but it was what was recommended up. Really? Yeah. So I actually, no, I did push it up.

Did you? If you know, if you know my personality. How high. I don't remember what the dose was, but I do know I started pushing it because that's what they told me. Yeah. But what's interesting is I've talked to other people and they will like one or the other better. Yeah, I agree with you. And so now what's going on there?

Because they're both mitochondrial, you know, improving mitochondrial function, but they're totally different in what they're doing, right? Yep. Yep. So SS31, as you'll know, is repairing mitochondrial integrity, the cardiolipine molecules, driving more energy through the system. And I think that one works better for people who have a little more damage to their system, a little bit, maybe more accumulated stress. So I've got my dad on 10 milligrams three times a week, and he's just seeing these remarkable benefits. My dad's 70 years old and has heart disease and a bunch of other stuff. And so 10 milligrams a day is a relatively high dose.

Most people are going to start around 2 milligrams a day. And so most people I've given two milligrams a day recommendations to you would say, I don't feel much. You push you to five. I think I feel something. And at 10, which I'm not saying anyone should do, by the way, most people are going to feel a difference. Okay. there. I don't know. But it seems to be driving more of the AMPK side. If you're not in a

in a PK state, if you're in more of an MTOR balance state, you may not feel the benefit of MOTC from what I understand. So the way we're sort of thinking about MOTC at this point, at least the way I'm thinking about it, is if I'm going to do days of extended fasting or intentionally being in a caloric deficit, I'll take some MOTC. And it seems that research says that it's going have better benefit when you're in a calorie depleted state. Okay. Oh, interesting. And I remember you saying a while ago, you're like, yeah, a lot of people feel great on MOTS.

You didn't notice much back then when you took it. No, I still don't. It's really interesting how some people react one way versus another. Justin liked that. Didn't you like MOTC? I did. Yeah, I liked the MOTS. That says 31.

For MOTC? I don't remember. Whatever the recommend. Yeah, whatever the recommendation does was. So it's probably, it could be a dosing thing. It could be a sourcing thing. Yeah. Like there's so much variance, man.

So what I've learned since studying this stuff, there's pH considerations, there's storage and transfer considerations. It makes so many considerations, and you're like, we just don't know, right? Because if you get a product that's been sitting on a shelf somewhere or even sitting in somebody's freezer for six or 12 months, nobody's done the testing to say, like, has this thing, because we're like, hey, we put in the freezer, it's good. Nobody's actually done the testing over six and 12 months to see.

Is this thing actually going to still have the same level of integrity and efficacy after that amount of time? We think it does, but we don't know. until somebody starts doing the testing. So you're the perfect guy then. I'm so glad you're here because I love throwing things at people like you, just ideas. And so I've been really interested in these myostatin inhibiting kind of pathways, right?

And there's a lot of money going into it now because of the GLP, you know, drugs. We've got this very powerful appetite suppressing weight loss intervention, but, of course, the side effect of eating low calories and not strength training and all that stuff is muscle loss. So they're like, how do we fix this, which is a bunch of lift weights and eat a little more food? But they're like, what interventions can we implement? And so there's all this money now going into myostatin inhibition. Now, the problem with that, at least from what I see in the data, is when they have animal studies where they inhibit myostatin, not through gene knockout, but rather through intervention, is you see muscle growth, but you don't see a proportional increase in athletic performance endurance or strength. part of that they think is mitochondrial density doesn't improve it.

So it's more muscle, but it's not very good muscle or functional. So I, as I'm reading this session, in fact, I was reading this morning, I'm like, you know, I bet you a good combination with that would be a MOTC or SS31, a mitochondrial peptide to help with maybe those potential side effects of a mitochondrial inhibiting peptide. So do you recall what the data says around, are people just gaining muscle without training? or is it like the training response is heightened? No, they just build muscle. So there was one with chimps that was crazy.

This is not a human study, but with chimps where they did two myostatin inhibitors or three groups, GLP, GLP plus active inhibition plus whatever the other one is that inhibits. I don't know what the other pathway was, but there were two myostatin inhibitors. And the last group, and they all ate the same amount of food,

built muscle while losing weight, which is crazy because they were in such a low-calorie state. So there's some powerful potential stuff that's coming out there. Yeah, you know, I had dinner with a guy on Saturday night who was selling me on this stuff. And I was like, to be honest, I haven't looked at it.

So I've got some friends who went down to Mexico and did the gene therapy, gene editing for Falostatin. You know, I'm not going to share any of you guys. I know. I know. And most of them across the board said, and they put on about 10 pounds of muscle. Wow.

Lost a little bit of fat. and it seems to stay. But that's sort of the extent of my interaction with these things. Because to be honest, one, I don't really have an interest personally in getting huge amounts of money. Well, you've been trying to lose muscle for a decade. We met that way where you were like, if I want to put on muscle, it's there. So it's not a concern for me.

But some of my clients are interested in adding muscle. But my approach to adding muscle, I would way rather teach you how to train hard and earn the muscle than just like take something to get it. I'm like, ah. Like, I know this word. world, you know, we're in a looks maxing world. And I just heard that word recently. I'm like, so what is this?

You just had a thing literally last week where all our staff came in and they challenged us with all these words that we slang. Right. And that was one of all of us who are looking at, I have no idea. No idea. Yeah. I'm seeing it. Mewing, looks maxing.

So I get why people would want it. But like, I'm so much more interested in teaching people how to master their body. Because putting on 10 pounds and muscle, because, you know, speaking from a guy who has been there, right? I walked on the Olympia stage and I was like, oh, is this it? You know, I was like, I accomplished my dream. I looked the way I wanted to look. And I was like, oh, it didn't change who I am. So what I know is someone who's done what, you know, a lot of people want to do is I put on all the muscle. It doesn't change my character. So just because I put on 10 pounds of muscle, it doesn't make me more confident. It doesn't

make me anything different other than like, oh, maybe I'll look different in the mirror. Confidence is built through challenges, built through struggle. It's both through overcoming obstacles. So the reason we're trying to build muscles because we want to be more confident. we want to be, I don't know, look better, well, go do the work, right? If we're building muscle because we want a longevity benefit, go do the work. You know, like I don't know that just muscle is what we're after. Yeah, how do you communicate that well because, or effectively, because we know this, we've been, we've all been working out for years and we train people for years and I know you've done the same.

And if I had to list all the benefits that came from the fitness journey, very little of those benefits are actually the physical end result. So many of the benefits are just the whole process. Person and becoming in the process. Yeah. I mean, you know, fitness is such a microcosm of, I guess, life, very simplified, you know, like it's hard. It hurts. I suck. I got to get better. You know, I got to show up. I got to be disciplined. And the carryover to everything else is profound. But how do you sell that to somebody when someone just is what's sold to them so much is the benefits are You look good. Yeah.

Well, I can go a lot of different directions, and it depends on how long you got. But I would say the society we live in is extremely difficult mentally, cognitively, emotionally. A lot of emotional stress, a lot of mental challenge, but physically very, very easy. So evolutionarily, we had a lot of physical stress and not a lot of psychological stress, right? Some psychological stress. But even if there was psychological stress, it was always coupled with physical stress. So what's happened is there's a disconnect. like an evolutionary disconnect where now we're having so much psychological stress and no physical

challenge. So the body becomes this metabolically disconnected organism where the brain is constantly in a state of fight or flight and the body sitting on the couch or sitting in the car, you know, reacting to someone cutting you off. And so we have to intentionally curate hard things for our body. Otherwise the body will break down. I think that that's my stance. It's like we have to intentionally curate challenges. We have to intentionally curate struggle to make sure the body and the mind can be in harmony. So when I'm when I'm stressed, whether it be from work or from driving in the car and getting cut off or whatever, moving my body is the fastest and most effective way out of that stressful state. So if people learn that and they can operationalize

that, that's what changes your life. So most people who are trying to change a psychological state, maybe it's inadequacy, maybe it's insecurity. They're trying to change that by changing the way they look. It's not the way you look. It's the movement to get the way you look that changes the the psychological state, right? We're trying to out think our way out of... You can't do it. No, no, you can't think your way out of that, those types of things. It's interesting.

I've been really digging deep into a lot of that data on anxiety and stress. And I have kids, and I have two older kids. One's 20, one's 16. So it's been interesting for me for a little while. And when you look at it, and, you know, I've heard people say this, like, oh, we're just, we're so stressed today or the stress is different today. And I've heard that argument before. but then when I think back to previous generations,

like you're living through the Great Depression or War War War II. Like, that's way more stressful. That's way more stressful. We're just less resilient. Yeah, like, what's the difference? And so what it brought me to was research on what is protective against stress.

And what I keep coming up to is, is there a purpose behind the stress? Do you feel meaning behind it? Because if you're doing something, and stressful and you feel like it's worthless stress, it's very stressful on the body. But if you're doing something, like look at volunteers. I love looking at research on volunteer workers who go out and get poor sleep and they're out there serving people and helping people and they're doing it for free and they just feel good.

And it's like those people are under a lot of objective stress, but they don't, they're not reporting lots of stress because they feel a high sense of purpose behind what they're doing. Man, you know that. So that's where I was going to go. And I think the best example, maybe the most extreme example, the best example is Elon Musk wakes up every day. And like, how do you CEO three companies at the highest level in the world, sleep four or five hours a night and still wake up and do it every day?

You're like, that's remarkable, right? So he's driven by purpose. You know, it could be some pain because I know I had some trauma as a child, but like, it's got to be a deep purpose, right? So, you know, you nailed that, man. And I have a 19-year-old stepson and he's going through some stuff right now. And I'm like, man, you just need something bigger than yourself. Like, he's like, I have anxiety.

I have this. I'm like, every man has anxiety at some point. their life maybe at all points in their life but they're willing to outwork that they're willing to realize like hey i have no choice i have to get up and do the work i have to get up and grime i have to have have to have a reason to get up otherwise i'm just going to sit in my anxiety i was i think it was either mark twain somebody was was writing recently and i was reading about it recently and they're saying something like literally every man is living with anxiety living with inner torment but you just get up and and go about your life right and then you find the things that are important and the anxiety

fades away because you start filling in all those gaps and deficiencies that are causing the anxiety, right? If you're anxious because your health is bad, well, we have to fix that. If you're anxious because you're broke and we'll fix that by making money. If you're anxious because, I don't know, your relationship status is bad or you're insecurity, you're insecure. Like, you start fixing those problems if you're willing to do the work. Whereas my stepson just sort of like sitting at home waiting for it to fix it itself. I'm like, man, you got to get up. It's a tough one. Yeah. As a father and seeing that in your, 19-year-old stepson, are there things that you have implemented or you communicate to the younger

ones? Like, are this, like, do you think about that a lot? I think about stuff like this a lot. Like, yeah, as my kids grow up. Make them face challenges and, uh, hard situations now because they, they just have to realize that they're just don't rescue them. Yeah, exactly. Right. They have to figure out that they can do it on their own. Is there an example you can think of that you can draw on though that's happened recently where it's just like there was an opportunity for you to do that? Like, are you seeking out and putting in those situations or are you just aware of opportunity of, oh, here's a time where I can... Well, so the example that stands up to me with my kids is sports.

So, like, they don't always win. And sometimes they don't always get the call. Sports are so good for that. So good for that. I think every kid should play sports. You're like, hey, man, you didn't make the team. Or you didn't get... My son right now just started in football.

And he didn't get the starting job as a quarterback. And you're like, how are you going to deal with that? Like, how are you going to react? And so the natural inclination is like, ah, you know, put the other guy down. I'm like, no, no, man. He did great. He pushed you hard. honor that respect that shake his hand next year come back beat him how you're going to do that you know

have to get better so my son's doing his sprint training every day and he's doing like you know he's doing all the things and i'm like that's his decision not mine right i'm not going to be the one he's like the angry dad yelling at my son to do the work i was like no man that's that's not me like my job is to facilitate what you want to do but you have to make the decision to move toward the growth yeah yeah so you know i want to steal it from you know what's interesting about that uh almost like one of the worst things that could happen to your kid when you put him in sports is he's excellent at them right out the gates

and it's always super good. Like how do you, like that's actually not a blessing that can potentially be a big curse. 100%. That they just go in and crush all the thing. The thing that changed my athletic career as a young one, I got cut from the 12 year old

all-star team baseball team. And they're like, sorry, you know, you're not good enough to make this team. I was like, okay, thank you. And I was hurt. And they brought me back as the last taxi player, which basically meant I had to be on the practice. team. And I was like, okay, I'll do it. I'll take it. And within a couple weeks into the season,

I was letting lead off, most hits on the team, ended up MVP of the teams. Like, that's cool. I was cut and I was dejected. And they gave me an opportunity. And I was like, I'm never going to, I never want to experience that again. And that took, like, I was a pretty solid baseball player from 12 to 17 when I gave it up for bodybuilding. But that was it. It was that event. And I remember it clearly because I was like I'm never gonna let these coaches down those coaches were hard on me I was 12 and I was like go keep going I'll take it and ever since then I'm the most coachable guy in the world when it comes to interacting with coaches because I remember that like nobody could be harder on me than me than those four guys were four coaches on team they beat me into the ground I don't care I'll keep going so that was a good learning I don't I don't think there's anything better than sports for kids for that reason I mean the reason why I bring that up and ask that is I've got a seven-year-old who has no interest in sports whatsoever And it's so crazy for my wife and I, who sports are on 24-7. We play sports all the time. Like, it's a part of our life.

And he's just Legos, puzzles, reading. You know, all the, he's such a great kid. And like, but we, and I just slowly try and introduce it. Now, I know we both were late bloomers. So as far as getting into sports. So there's this hope that eventually, but I think about this a lot because I know what it did for me. And I know what a great. It's such every day from practice to games to cut to, to, there's so much.

many lessons within it. And as a dad, if you're aware of that and you see it's like, it just presents these great opportunities. So I always think like, what am I going to do if he does it? Like, there's a possibility that he's just. I would just create some, some man's standards in the house. Like, hey, man, men can defend themselves. Or, you know, our, our Schaefer, men defend themselves. And we do jihitsu. And we run. You know, or like, we lift or something, you know. Yeah, yeah. Create standards that like, this is an interesting thing that maybe you guys haven't thought about. You probably, I don't know, anyone beyond my grandfather, I don't know their names. I don't know anything about them, right? Anything older than my grandfather? But think about our kids.

Like, we are going to be the first generation where there's going to be a time capsule for the rest of time. We're going to have a digital fingerprint for the rest of time. So it's your opportunity now to sit back and go, what legacy do I want to create for the name of the back of the jersey? You're the start, man. Like, there may be guys who've come before you. And I always think, like, I come from a very strong line of men. I don't know who they are, but I know they were the strongest of their generation or their strongest of the species, right, because they have to survive. So like, you get to be intentional about what you start now as a legacy for your family. It's like, what traditions do I want to create? What standards do I want to create for my kids? And like, so, you know, I want my kids to

play sports. But it's not just like, hey, pick any sport you want. I'm like, hey, we got to have standards. We have to have daily standards around. We're going to do this every day. And so I have, I have what I call four master skills. And they have to study and do something for their format. master skills every day. And that started, you know, as soon as they're sort of able, and I'm happy to share those. But it's basically like I'll share what they are really quickly. So it's master your body, master your finances, master communication, and master your emotions. Because I believe those are the foremost important things for young people. Now you can make an argument, there's other stuff. But master your body, master your finances,

master communication, and master emotions. And so all of my kids are focusing at some level on doing some stuff for that. And it could be little. It could be like, hey, did you do 10 pushups today or like whatever, but like we're going to do something every day. Why? Because I want in the back of their mind when they don't know what to do with themselves, when they don't, like, I'm bored, have you done your master skills? So we just have a low level standard, but you've got to do something. I want to, I know it's been a little while since you transitioned out of pro bodybuilding, but you've been one of the more successful people to do so. And I, I can't imagine the challenge that a, well, any pro athlete, but a pro bodybuilding in particular would have

having to change their identity, I guess, to go from this really huge, muscular, whatever guy competing to switch into something else. And I see that often is a very difficult transition for people, but you seem to have no problem doing it. Talk about that a little bit and changing your identity to going from bodybuilder guy, competing on stage, you know,

getting big, strong, shredded, you know, prep, you know, all that stuff to moving out of it to like what you do now. Yeah, you know, What comes up for me as you say that is bodybuilding was always something I did. It wasn't something that I am. And I know a lot of people have themselves, their identity wrapped up in what they do. And for me, it just never was.

So, you know, even until I was a pro bodybuilder and past, you know, I was being a pro bodybuilder for many years, I never told people I was a bodybuilder. I love to train. I love to grow. I love to work hard. Like, I didn't see myself as a bodybuilder, you know. And maybe that's some version of inadequacy. Maybe it's some version of like, I just.

never was my identity. So leaving bodybuilding almost felt like a relief for me. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So bodybuilding is something that I needed. You know, I had a pretty rough childhood. Bodybuilding gave me a lot. Bodybuilding gave me everything, to be honest.

Everything I have to this day, bodybuilding has given me. So leaving bodybuilding felt more like I could go back to being who I truly am, rather than the armor that I have to grow to overcome my deep level in adequacy, deep level insecurity. So, yeah, depending on deep, I go to that. Well, do you feel like you had a good relationship? relationship with it all the way through, or do you think that this is mature, why is you talking back

about it? You know what I'm saying? In the beginning, I didn't, I don't know that I ever had a bad relationship with bodybuilding. I just wanted, I just wanted to be better. Like I just, my bodybuilding for me was about, you know, the contest was a pageant. It was about who am I becoming, how much am I growing between each contest? How could I improve? So at the time I was 17, I went to the Olympia in 98, which was Ronnie's first win. And I was 160 pounds. And I was like, this is all I want to do. And from that point on, the standard for me was like, I want to look like Flex Wheeler. I want to look like J. Cutler. I want to look like Doreenis.

And until I'm there, I'm nothing. So it wasn't anything other than this pursuit of I'm going there to the top of that mountain. And I was never worried about my placing in a show. I was never worried about anyone else's feedback. Like, oh, you got big arms, small arms, small calves. I don't care. Until I look like that, I'm not there. So I was so goal-driven that it was just like consumed.

me. So I don't think I had a negative, like a lot of people talk about having body dysmorphia and bodybuilding. I'm like, I don't think I had that. I think I was just like obsessed on achieving my goal and obsessed with being the best version of myself in the gym. And you could say that comes from, so when I talk about my childhood, I come from a family of obese alcoholics. Everyone was lazy. Nobody ever finished high school. They just blamed everyone outside of themselves. And I hated that. And I felt like I was never like them. I feel like I just don't feel like I'm like these people. And I didn't want to be like those people. So it became part of my identity to move away from that. Sure. I'm like, I don't want to be like them. Somebody do the exact opposite of what

they would do. And that drove me. So like maybe that's why I set this goal. I'm like that's the exact opposite of what my family is. Yeah. Yeah. So when I left bodybuilding, to be honest, even to now, I feel more myself now than I ever have in my entire life. Even as a young kid, imagine like, feeling like you're part of this family of obese alcoholics, you know, drug addicts, gambling addicts. not feeling like you belong there. Like, I can't be myself because I was very judged. My mom had a problem with alcoholism.

So I was always sort of mistreated, treated like the stepchild. And, yeah, so I was never able to be myself. So going through bodybuilding earned, I think I earned my place in this world in bodybuilding. That's why I wanted to be the best. I'm like, I'm going to go here because I'm going to make something on myself.

Yeah. I'd argue that it was part of you finding your identity. 100%. And it's more of it, which makes sense to why, to Sal's point, while you seem to have this kind of almost easy transition out of it because you didn't wrap your identity around it. It was more so I proved to myself, I'm not that other thing.

And you've already proven that. And it was probably some sense of relief of like, well, I'm done proving it. I don't need to prove anything anymore. I want to back up. So you went to the Olympia 98 and 160 pounds. First of all, what brought you to the Olympia? So I didn't have a good relationship with my dad growing up. Like my dad, looking back on it, my dad's my dad,

a wonderful man. But my parents had separated and we didn't have a lot of contact. So when I was 15, I wanted to play sports. So I moved high schools to go live with my dad because I'd have to be in the location. I had to be close to the school. So I'm living my dad, just him and I. And we didn't really talk. We didn't know. My dad was not a very good communicator. So I started training. And I was like, hey, dad, I'm going to train at this gym, just up the road. Can you sign me up? He's like, yep, I'll pay for it. No problem. So I'm praying at this gym And I didn't want to be a bodybuilder at all

No interest I just want to train because I was being recruited To play D1 baseball So, but when I get to this gym There's a lot of bodybellers there And I open, I still at this point Didn't want to be a body bill I opened up a magazine one day

I think it was muscle and fitness Midapin Flex And I saw an ad for the Olympia And it was in like six weeks And I was like, hey you want to go I left it open on the kitchen table Like you want to go to this He goes, sure, let's go

And it was six weeks later And I went and we drove down It was a 10 hour drive from Toronto And I was like, this is all I want to do. I just knew. It's just, well, that's so random. How did you know, because 160 pounds is way different than eventually what you became. That's wild that you could even see that I want to do that.

You're looking at that at 160. You think that's even possible. And you're focused on baseball, too. So how did that just shift for you all of a sudden? I don't know, man. It was in the gym for, you know, six months, maybe 12 months at that point. I love, I think I have a bit of obsess. of personality, maybe.

So I was training twice a day before school and after school. I just wanted to be the best. And I just wanted to be fast. Because, like, what I found in baseball, and I was stupid. I didn't have any coaches or anything. I was just like, if I do this stuff, I feel faster. So I went to the gym twice a day and the same thing every day. I was like, I'm going to go to this because it makes me faster.

I was like, great. So I was making decent progress, start and see some changes in my body. And then, I don't know, man. When I got to, I can remember as clear as it was yesterday, like exactly who I was looking at, you know, Ronnie Coleman. and they were wearing these suits. Ronnie Coleman was wearing a blue suit. And he was,

imagine a bodybuilding of a blue suit. He's four feet wide. That's back when they had them all tailored to be, yeah, this big old suit. They're ridiculous. It was like,

oh my gosh. It was like, it was so small, right? Like the Olympia now was this big event. Back then it was like this little hall. It was a joke.

Was it in Vegas? Was it in New York City? The next year was in Vegas. 99. I was in Vegas. Oh, wow. I went to that one too. So there's a funny story.

In 98, I went to, it was in New York and I was 160 pounds and the next year I went back and I was 2.30. Whoa, you went from 1-60 to 2-30 as a kid in the first year?

How old were you? 17. Holy sannie out of that. So you're obviously still natural at that time. Okay, so this is when you knew you had genetics for the bodybuilding. For eating, maybe. Well, so you were 230 in fat?

No. Yeah, I was probably, I was under 20%. I was probably 16, 18%. Yeah, that's a lot of months. A massive amount of muscle. 50 pounds at that age? That's insane. 70 pounds at that age.

Did you know as you're training and gaining all that size in a year? Because that's insane. Because I think that's how much muscle I gained my whole life. Yeah. Maybe. Were you like, oh, I think I'm good at this. I think I have genetics. Did anybody say anything to you?

Like, hey, dude. So here's a funny story. At the 99 Olympia, some man comes up to me and he says, hey, I'd like to write an article for you. I write for one of the magazines. On you? And you're just some kid? Yeah, he goes, as one of the future mass monsters of the sport.

Now, my red flags will be going up, right? Hold on a second. You want to talk to a kid about it? Yeah, like, so we did a little interview. I never saw that the article, but like, that was sort of the first validation for me, like, oh, maybe I'm on the air track. Because in one year, I was. Did he recognize you from the previous year or something?

No. He just saw some jacked young kid, probably. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. Wow. And you had no, and so at that point, did you think, well, I got good genetics or? I didn't care, man. I just, I, so, you know, call me stupid. When I started this quest from like the 17 year old 160 kid, I just didn't have any doubt that that's what I was going to do. So I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes. There's no like, maybe I'll do it. Maybe I won't. I'm like, I'll train six times a day if I have to. I'll eat fucking dog food if you tell me I need to. That's where I'm going. So I didn't care for anyone's validation. I wasn't. looking for anyone's validation. And then the next year, I think it was early 2000. I was walking around one of the first shows

I ever went to locally in Canada. And I got my first bodybuilding contract. I got a contract with Muscle Tech. Is it before you competed? Way before I competed. What? Because you were just walking around. You have to look crazy if people are doing this to you, dude.

Well, how did that happen? So you're walking around. It's like a supplement expo or something? No, it's like a bodybuilding show. You know, like a local show or they have like some exhibitors set up. And because Muscle Tech was, a Canadian company. They're based there. So this is either late 99 or early 2000.

Is this one they had, what's the cell tech? Greg Covex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Giant. You guys know who that was? Who? He was giant. Remind me 400 pounds. Greg Covax. Oh, this guy's like overhead, behind the neck pressing four plates. If I see him all now. I know. Five. Oh. Yeah. If I see him, I'm sure. He was in all the muscle tech. Well, as I was saying, I mean, I was taking cell tech around those years. So I know they've taken all that stuff. Yeah. So this is, uh, Greg Covax. K-O-V. I have a feeling. The name already is ringing a bell.

He was just a giant. He was like a giant human being. Was that their first big signing? Was he the first big face of them? Yep. And then were you to follow? No, I was a kid. But like, I was very happy to be getting free supplements.

I was going to say, what was the contract? Just free supplements? Whatever I wanted. Because the company was new. So I would literally just pull up whenever I wanted. You remember that was such a big deal, though? We talked about this all the time. If you would have asked us way back of the days,

if like we could just get free subs, we would probably done that. So that was the year before I went. to university for the first year. And so when I went to university, I had this muscle tech contract. I had the muscle tech team athlete jacket and I had closets full of cell tech. And they used to have mesotech bars and mesotic protein. Yeah, yeah. Clause is full. So I would trade. So like, that's how I got through college, man. I was like, yeah, I'll trade you. I got some, I got some protein. Totally, man. Oh yeah. I totally remember. So see, see him on the right there next to Cutler? Yeah. I remember him. Yeah. He was, he passed away, right? Yeah, he did. But he was, I mean, he was so

strong. I mean, he benched six, seven plates and just insane. Yeah, it was absurd. Yeah, insane. Okay, so you get this contract. You never competed. You didn't even look for it. You're just walking around. And you're how old at this point? 19. 19. And how, do you remember how big you were at this point?

Probably 240. Okay. Do you, at what point is someone coming up to you and saying, was it them? Or are they more interested in like, no, we just want this Jack kid? They just want the Jack kid. Because I was going to university. I was like, yeah, I got to to school for four years. So, yeah, I never made any convinced to competing.

When you look back at those two years of training, what were you doing right and what were you not doing right? Taking advantage of new begins, I think. And I was just training all the time. I was very blessed, I'll say, like, circumstantially, I went into the, I just happened to be within walking distance of the only bodybuilding gym in Toronto. I could walk there in 15 minutes.

Winter, sun, summer, doesn't matter. I'd walk, you know, twice a day. And I met these two guys, brothers who were way further ahead. They were much further head than me in bodybuilding. They didn't necessarily teach me how to train. They taught me what hard work was. And these guys are still friends to this day. And without those guys, I wouldn't have been to man I am.

Like they just set the standard. They're only a couple years older, but they were just so much bigger. And they worked. So when I moved to the U.S., and I tell the story often on my podcast, when I went to Venice, I was expecting professional bodybuilders to be really hardworking people. I'm laughing because I've heard so many stories of... Dude, I was ready to go. With the Southern California body goes.

I'm ready to go to war, man. I'm like, oh, that's fucking go. I'm going to kill these guys. And I'm like, what was that? I'm not going to call it names, but I was like, this is a workout? I was like, what are these guys doing? Is this a joke?

So these guys, these two brothers, Nick and Dan, they taught me everything, man. They taught me, like, what hard work was. And they used to just destroy me and destroy each other. And so, like, we were not, not right sometimes. We're doing crazy stuff. So like when I went to the U.S., I was like, oh, like, I can hang with these guys.

I'm better than these guys. I would do two sets to everyone for everyone I was training against. So that was always a real point of, it was a real advantage for me. Like psychological advantage for sure, but physical advantage. My conditioning was way better. My strength was way better because like that was my standard. I just like nobody would keep up. You know, there's a couple bodyblowers throughout my career that kept up, but not many.

Who are the ones that you, that you trained with the guys like that? I never have to train with branch. I call them on so many times. want to do it. Oh, really? No. You know, because we had that like public conflict, which is sort of contrived. But I was like, dude, come do one working on my gym. We'll do my style. Then we'll go to your gym all the year style. Whenever you want. Didn't want to come. That's okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't know that. Roli Winkler is a fucking freak. Really? Yeah, yeah. Well, I know he looks like, he's got crazy genetics, but he trains like a maniacias? Stupid, strong and ridiculous endurance.

Okay. Ridiculous endurance. Okay. Yeah. I don't really he trains like a crazy genetics. I don't really he trains like a maniac because he'll take 10, 15 minutes between a set. But like when he gets going, like that guy's output is nuts. Wow. Wow. Yeah. He probably has the greatest output. You ever train with Cutler? I know he also had a fast pace. No, I never train with Jay. Okay.

Yeah, those, that really is the only bodybuilder. I was like like, I had to work to beat him. Usually I didn't have to work to beat people. I could like goof around a little bit and be a cocky prick. There's a couple bodybuilders. You watch you watch training videos of them and you just see

there's certain like Gosporee isn't one, like just crazy work ethic. He's just maniac in there, Plats, like just absolute. I think Plats was, I mean, I don't want to take anything away from him, because he was my early eye, like, looking back at it, I think it was a show. Like, watching those videos, I'm like, I could do that, like, the output and the, the escapades. I'm like, I'm not sure if he was actually thinking he was working hard or if it was actually just like I'm putting on a show. Oh, we're going to clip that, dude.

I don't want to take anything away from the guy. But watching it, I was like, it's a bit of an exhibition, you know? Well, because if you watch Dorian Train, who I have the utmost respect for it. It's not, it's crazy, but it's not this exhibition where I'm trying to, like,

scream at the camera. I'm like, just chill out, man. Like, do the work, you know? Dorian's impressive because his gym was, it was just this basement. It was like a, like small. It was like a small little junkie. Have you been there?

I'd never been there. Yeah, it's a shuddle. It's perfect. It's like dark. The gym I started training. I was also a shittle. Where it was? So the one I started training out that I was saying they used to walk to.

Yeah. It was called Mack's gym in Toronto. And the guy was an 87-year-old Japanese man who owned the gym. His name was Mac. And he had welded all the equipment personally. So nothing was, it was all welded, personally. Wow. Yeah.

Oh, that's like one of your dreams. Talk a little bit about the culture because there's, we brought this up on the show. So we love to communicate to average person. Like, you know, as trainers, like, I'm not speaking with a fitness fanatic. I love fitness fanatics. We could talk science all day, the hardcore stuff. But I like talking to the average person because they need help. And one of the fears that people have, especially women, and it's less these days than it used to be, but still is the intimidation factor of going in the gym.

And what I try to communicate to these people is like, the more hardcore the gem, the better the culture. Like you'll walk in. You can be a total beginner. You could be a 65 year old woman. You could be 300 pounds. And you walk in and you put out some effort. And you'll get experienced people coming over. just trying to help you and coach you for free.

Talk a little bit about the culture because I think we're missing that. And I think it's such an important aspect of fit. I think it's one of the most valuable aspects of gyms. Yeah, it's a great thought, man. So my gym is like that. My gym is an amazing culture. Or like everyone knows your name and you're trying to have the same people all the time. We're trying to make each other better.

I was blessed in the beginning, exactly as you say, to be like the kid who was dumb and like deer in headlights. And I just had some old dudes to be like, okay, man, don't do it like that. Do you like this. Try this way. I'm like, okay. All I had, you want to laugh? You guys laugh at this.

My first nickname in the gym. What? Little screamer boy. That's true story. Who gave you that? True story. Wow. Guys at the gym.

Oh my gosh. Because you just screamer boy. I just went to work hard. Like, yeah, that's my first thing. And they love you. I bet they love you for it. Like this kid over here's killing himself.

He's awesome. So man, my habit was, you know, I go to failure on the bench press. Yeah. But you get stuck. So what do you do? You roll it off.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm like, I'm like, They're like, what are you doing, man? Ask for a spot. I'm like, I didn't want to bother anybody, so I'd roll it off. You know, roll it off your check. Stupid.

But those are great. It's such great, man. I was just, literally, I've been talking about this recently on the show because, you know, we worked in big box jams and we've been in the gym industry. We were in the gym industry for a long time. And so you start to see trends in the gym and in gym industry. And you see these trends where they seem to come out of nowhere. You're like, what is it about this trend or what's going on?

Why is it attracting so many people? people and what's going on. What's happening here? And CrossFit was one of these. CrossFit came out of nowhere. And these are crap hole gems. They barely any equipment. They're typically, don't even have AC.

The programming isn't great. But it's super popular. And it's not that they're deadlifting and squatting. I know that they kind of brought those back into popularity. They're partially to credit for that. It's the community. They understood community. And it's so funny because it wasn't that long ago.

watching. I've seen pumping at least a million times. But I was watching it. One of the things I like to do when I watch it when I was a kid is I would watch the background, because you've seen this so many times. I know what Arnold's going to say. I know what's happening with Lou. But I'd watch the background. There's the, you know, the weird dude in the back, doing the funny curls where when Lou's working out and this guy over here doing this thing.

And I realized, like, there's no music playing. There's no music in the back. They didn't even play music in the gyms. Like, whoa. Wouldn't allow music in the gym. He wouldn't allow music in the gym. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. No. So Joe Gold started gold's gym, so it's someone and then to Ed Connors. And then he started a world gym, never allowed music in the gym. That's right.

It was about, it was about the culture. Well, we've talked about that, but I never understood, never knew if that was like a rule or just, just, just wouldn't want it. Oh, interesting. Yeah. If you made, if you, you know, did anything crazy, kick you out. Like, he kick everybody. You get a terrible temper. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, as I'm watching this, I'm like thinking about it, like, one of the worst things I think, and I know people are going to hate this because fitness fanatics, don't care, but I think one of the worst things that we've done is wear headphones in the gym. We're in our own little bubble by ourselves. You're right. And people won't talk to you because you have the headphones on. Nobody's talking to each other. I'm in my own space.

Now, I get it if you're like super hardcore fitness fanatic, you know, because that's your thing. That's me. When I go in there, I don't care. But most people are not fitness fanatics. Most people need to develop a relationship with fitness that lasts forever. And it's a community that does that. And there's no opportunity for that when we're all isolated. in our own little bubble in what used to be a culture thing.

Yeah, I hear you, man. I would say that if you and I train together, for example, I would hope that the conversation, the dialogue that we have between sets would be the thing that makes you better in life and in the set, you know? Spoken like a trainer, bro. Right. So many people are trying to, like, you know, block everything out.

The dynamic you create should be the thing that makes you better. Yeah, I think that's important. Like, again, maybe not everyone's training with other people, but I think everyone should aspire to have at least one training partner. What a gift? When you look back at all the guys that you trained with, was there anybody that you hit it off so much with

that you trained consistently with for a while? I had some great ones. No, no pros, man, no pros. No, I didn't have any great pro bodybuilder training partners. Was that just because they didn't live up to what you thought? I didn't get along well with any of the open bodybuilding guys. That's so funny to me that you don't. You have such a likable eating-go-

Were you more of an asshole before we hung out? Were you a prick? you probably were you probably realize how much harder you train everybody else and then you lost respect for everybody and you wore that on your sleeves

I wouldn't disrespect anybody I would in fact I would love to train with anybody yeah but if I'm training with you I'm gonna make you know that you're inferior but okay by any means necessary

right by any means necessary so I think that may have come across in a way of snow a little intimidating a little bit but yeah by any means necessary. So yeah, no, I think I just, I think, you know, when you're, when you're interacting with

10 to 12 or 15 of like really alpha men who are competing for each other's salary and competing for each other's trophies, you're not going to be friendly, man. So, you know, I was close to Cedric. I was close to Sean, Rodin, I was close to Brandon. But because we travel together later in the career, I'm close with Dexter, by I'm close to Dexter, we travel together a lot, you know? But like as far as training in the gym, I don't think I train everything else.

So who, so like who was the first guy that obviously wasn't a pro bodybuilder that like you were lifting and you went, oh, this is someone I'm going to latch on to or that I would work out more with like who was that to you? So I'll say this. If any of my old training partners are listening, I wasn't always nice in the gym

because it was all businessman. And like if anyone slowed me down, they weren't going to last very long. So training partners were the people who are willing to show up, do the work, and not fucking complain. And there wasn't a lot of those. I would burn through those pretty quickly. So throughout my career, I had four guys total who, like, were long-term training partners.

Yeah. And it would be like, hey, man, you want to do lunges? Yep. Hey, man, you want to do extensions? Yep. Hey, mate. Like, all they would say, the whole fucking workout is. Yep.

Yep. Yeah. I was like, perfect. Because I don't want to hear about your fucking problems. I don't want to hear about your life. I don't want to hear about your knees being sore. If you can't show up the train, don't show up. Yeah, yeah.

So I was all business. And that wasn't always received very well by men who have giant egos. Yeah. So, yeah, there's a couple guys, man. So like Vic, the early guy who's, you know, massive influence on my intensity early. There's another amazing story behind that one. I'll share this story because it's worth sharing. So 2013, I got second at the Arnold Classic.

I don't know if you guys would remember that. But Dexter beat me. The night before, yeah, night before 6 p.m., Chad Nichols was coaching me for the show. He comes in my room. He's like, dude, nobody's beating you in the show. He's like, you're fucking dialed in. You're so dry.

You're going to crush everybody. So, you know, Chad leaves. I think it was like 8 or 9 p.m. I start cramping. And my lower body starts cramping. You know, my abs start cramping. My throat start cramping. So you're like, okay, this is bad.

So I take Kuanine, which is a, anti-cramping quinine sulfate and cramping starts to come down but then I start vomiting and then I start diarrhea and then vomiting and diarrhea at the same time every 45 minutes through the night so it started at 9 p.m. This is the night before. Night before every 45 minutes and I would try to sleep I couldn't eat anything because I throw it up so literally every 45 minutes on the clock every four of a minutes either diarrhea or vomiting and so I'm you know I'm like fuck I'm out my tans all fucked up because by that point you're all tanned you know tans all because i'm sweating in the night and i'm

cold and it's just disaster and then it's like uh i think 10 30 the next morning and i'm like i haven't anything since sixth the night before and i was like i can't do the show man i'm sitting laying in bed i'm like can't stand up i'm dizzy i'm like what do i do chad what do i do he goes ah man like i don't know like see how you feels because i couldn't even need banana couldn't anything and then i got a call at 1030 um from maybe he was 11 from vick who actually froze from his wife who actually froze from his wife like this guy who was my earliest training partner and she's like hey she's talking to my wife and she's like hey don't tell ben but Vic can't make it for the show um he's going in for testicular can't he's got testicular can't he's got to go and it was testicle removed on Monday so like I didn't know that I was on the phone I meant my wife's on the phone and uh so I'm like laying in bed and she'm like what's going on she can't come like tell me why and so she's like he's got to go in for testicular cancer to get testicle removed and so I'm like in that moment I was like fuck it Let's go. Like, I'm sitting here complaining about a sore belly.

My best friend's about to fucking lose his testicles. I'm like, let's go. I'm like, call the tanning lady. Let's put on a tan. Pull my hat over my eyes. I walk down. I'm like, let's go. We're going on.

And I was like, chat. Stand behind the judges. If I pass out, let them know what's going on. I didn't eat the whole day. I could fucking second that show. Like, most people don't know that. Like, the night before. Oh, wow.

Even after the night show. So I did the morning show and the night show. Even after the night show, I went to dinner. I couldn't eat. It's like the whole day I went to that show. So you see me at that show and like, I got second. So I just looked okay. But imagine not eating for all that time, not drinking water.

Not filling up. Not a disaster. Now what caused that? Was it just the- I have no idea. So the last thing I ate had a burger and fries at 6 p.m. So you could say it was diuretics. You could say it was because I was cramping.

You could say it was the food. Like, I don't know, man. Wow. I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. It was a rough night. And I just remember like going on stage. I would walk off stage and put my head down.

And I'm like, everyone's like, you're right? I'm like, fine. Like, leave me alone. But if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have gone on stage. Oh, man. To take second and to be that probably flat is crazy. Yeah, I'd literally, I tried to eat a banana. Do I can eat a banana?

Wow. I believe, wasn't it a Jay Cutler who won, he won one of his show? It's the famous quad-stomp photo. And I think he had, like, the flu the day before. Something. And it made him shredded looking. Like, he came in real dry. I think you found out of a steak here.

I don't know. Yeah. That's what happened. That's a sick photo. When you're working. You're working out of these guys. Are they ever leading? No.

As I was insane. So are they really a workout partner? This is your job. I mean, I think we're all like that too. I don't know. Nobody's leading my workout. Yeah. No, no.

If I'm working out with someone. I don't want to work out with somebody that gets something to work out. I know what I do. That's why I meant. I think if you had something you trusted, you would. Yeah, maybe someone, maybe my coach or someone was coaching me. If I hired you and you're like coaching me through it, then you could.

That's what I mean. I think with fitness fanatics, it's not so important. it's not so important. I think culture is still important, but it's less than it would be for like the average person shows up and they're consistent because they're part of this community.

And I think we've totally, I think we've totally lost that. Can you, like all these crazy workout partners and situations where you've put like that, are there workouts when you think about because what, thousands, tens of thousands now? Yeah, what's the dumbest workout? What I was just saying,

are there workouts that stand out like that one? Like, definitive. Do you have like workout? Of course I do. Oh my God, dude. So there was a period where I had two training partners, one for the first hour, one for the second hour. I'd do that for about three months.

Did trade out? Yeah. So I would literally walk in the chamber. Tag, bro. It's your turn dog. He's on one today, just so you know. Getting some water. Did you imagine that?

I'd walk in the change room, change my t-shirt, come back out for round two sides. I had a dry t-shirt, ready for the second workout. Oh, my God. That was pretty intense. I would, I would, I don't know, frequently, I would often do 20 sets of one-arm dumbbell rows for a workout, just to want to go and do 20 sets of one on, like, heavy as I could, like, you know, 200, 220 pound dumbbells, just like 20, 21.

Was this because back was like an emphasis for you and back thickness or whatever? So like, I got to hit this. You know, man, I learned too late, again, maybe, maybe right at the right time, but had I learned how to train earlier, I don't think weak body parts would have been a thing. I just fell into the dogma of like, you know, Dorey Nates, look at his back and look at the exercise he does. You should do those too. Or like, Rennie Coleman does this.

So you should do that too. So I got really strong. You know, I was deadlifting 800 pounds. I was doing bent rows of five plates. It was very strong. And I didn't grow my back. And then all of a sudden, somebody said to me, like, hey, man, you're just doing the wrong exercises for your body.

Your body structure is different than these people. Why don't we find the ones that actually direct tension to the lats instead of just mindlessly moving weights? And when I finally found the things that worked, everything started to grow. Wow. So that was just a big paradigm shift for me. That's where the whole business that I run came from. It's like I went through this entire learning phase of like,

how do I actually understand what this muscle is supposed to do for my mechanics? That's the differences in what I do now versus what most people do. It's like your body's extremely different than mine, which means your set up, your exercise selection should be different. So that's what the whole business is based on. Once I figured out the exercise that actually fit my body, my body started to go. So that, okay, that ties back to what I asked you earlier that I didn't feel like

we got to finish was looking back those first two years, you build all this muscle, we talked about some of the things you did right. What would you say you did wrong? So knowing what you know now, if you could go back and tell 17-year-old kid, hey, train more like this or less or more. Hard to say, man, because the thing that I did really well was I learned how to train hard.

And you could argue that training hard should be first or you could argue that training well should be first. You know, training hard for me was great. It caused some injuries. Um, cost some challenges, um, but I managed to get through them. Um, yeah. So like, I'm not sure if I would have said change anything looking back on it. Like hindsight is hard hard to change. Because it played such an important role, right? So like maybe, maybe you were doing everything the

right way, but, but the, what you've got from that still played such a massive role. At what point, because obviously you're you're got crazy genetics, uh, at an early age, at what point, uh, do you incorporate performance enhancing substances like anabolic? So I did my first cycle Probably going in the summer before university Because I was about to do I was about to do a show So I would have been 19

I was about to do a show So I was dying for a show I hired my first bodybuilding coach So up in this point you haven't actually done a show yet You've been training to get bigger So you're like 240 or something like that And you're going into university My first university has 260 with abs

You know what This is so good to communicate because people think steroids do what they don't. And this is just not the... Look, we've worked in gyms long enough. You put 70 pounds on before 10 pounds. I know more than that. There's 260 there.

There's people that can take all the steroids in their life and they'll never get 70 pounds. I'll tell you a funny story, dude. I used to own... I was part owner of a gym down in Palm Desert for about a year, and it's relatively close to Mexico. So I'd have trainers that would drive down there, come back with a bunch of gear or whatever.

And I had the sales guy that worked for, I won't say his name, but I had the sales guy that worked for me that was just taking, I mean, he was Kamikaze dude. He was taking so much stuff. It was just whatever he can get his hands on. And he just looked unhealthy. Yeah. I mean, he might have gained 10 pounds of muscle.

I'm not exaggerating. But he just didn't look good. And he was doing all, and people like, is it fake? Well, no, I know it's not fake because I use some of the stuff. And I know other people use some of the stuff. And it was totally different. Yeah.

So there's one guy that you guys would know in the fitness industry who's the same idea. I went and met him probably 2012 or 13. I'm like, that's your fucking stack. He brings out his notebook

and he shows me. He's like, this is what I'm taking? I was like, what? Like, you're taking this and you look like that?

I'm like, geez, something. I don't know. That was the first time I got it. This is it for you, dude. Give it up, man. Yeah.

Give it up. So you did your first cycle, your 260. What was the cycle and what did it do to you? I got really strong. I got really strong. I think I was taking 400 migs of test, 400 migs of EQ.

I was on it for probably 12 weeks. Maybe it'd be a little longer than that. And so I know the foundation of it was testing EQ. I think the first six weeks was EQ. No, the first six weeks test in DECA, second six weeks test in EQ. And I would have rotated through something else on top of that, whether it meant of Dianabal or it would have been,

there was another molecule, which I forget. But yeah, 12 weeks, you know, maybe a thousand milligrams in total. Mm-hmm. Just because I had a coach at the time. He'd take this. Yeah. I was like, all right. Yeah, I remember this sounds nuts,

but I remember skull crushes with the straight bar with two plates. So nuts. I was very strong, very strong. Like I couldn't even, even during my highest level of bodybuilding, I wouldn't do that. But that first cycle was nuts. I can't imagine you. at that peak with D-Ball because I know what...

My head looked like a pumpkin. I know the first time I did D-ball, it was the most insane thing that every time I came back to a body part, I was lifting 10, 20 pounds more. Every time. My first cycle of Tren was like that. I was like, this is not right.

Yeah. I remember scaring myself being like, this is way too fast. Like, I'm this strong already. From what I've read about Tremblone, because in the early, in the early days, people were using Tren at like, 170 milligrams a week, 200 milligrams.

And I'm seeing people online, 600 milligrams, 1,000 months. That's fucking nuts. And they're talking about all these psychiatric issues from it. Is that true? Are you guys using that little back then versus... I remember it was 30 milligrams per milliliter. And I was either... I started off with half a milligram three...

Excuse me, half a millimeter three times a week. So 15 milligrams three times a week. That was my starting dose. So 45 milligrams a week, yeah. Or I may... I think I probably would have gone... up to like one ML three times a week. That was my, but that was like I was, by that point, I was competing.

I would have been 24, 25 at that point. Yeah. How's the first show go? So you do the stack. I won. Huh? I won. Yeah.

Yeah. I won. Funny because I just never, I just never thought, I never doubted I was going to win, man. I just always knew that I, no, if I did what I need to do, I would win. Yeah, so I won, won my first show. And I had a mentor early, early on. He passed six weeks after my first show. I had a heart attack.

And so I was scheduled to do another show six weeks after. And I was like, fucking, I'm not doing it. I felt like I had lost, like, my mentor in the sport. I was like, I don't know that I want to do it. And then three weeks before, maybe it was like two weeks before, I was like, ah, let's just jump in and do it anyways. So that qualified me for the provincials, which is the same as a state show. That was the next year.

Won that one. Next year, skip a year. I went and did the Canadian Nationals. I lost by one point. And also the North Americans lost by three points. You actually break that long between shows early on. A year. Oh, wow.

Yep. Because that's not really common. Normally early on, and you're kind of climbing the ladder, you're doing shows like, I just had no desire to do shows. I just wanted to win. So like,

if I'm not ready to go to go to that show and win, I'm like, I'm like, I get that. Yeah, I'm not going. So, yeah. How was,

like one of the hardest things, I say that even, so I only ended up doing six total shows in my career. And I still, to this day, don't think I ever brought the best version of me to stage. Peking. It's hard.

It's harder than what people realize. There's many times where a day before or two days later, so I'm looking at myself, I'm going, whoa, this is what I wanted. It's hard to do that. Did you hit that out the park right away, or did you feel the same way where it took a long time to really dial that in? I think still to this day.

Okay, so you feel the same way, too. I feel like I've never, no one's ever seen the best, like on stage, the best physically. I had some good ones, but not like, yeah, agreed. Yeah, I think, you know, I had kids in 2012 and 13. So I started hitting my peak in 2012. And 2012 and 13 would have been, like, as I was just coming into my peak. Yeah.

That's what my son and my daughter were born. Yeah. So, like, had I continued, I would hopefully keep getting better. Looking back at it now, man, I think the absence of peaking is just stupidity. Like, you're just like doing dumb shit. Like, looking back at what I know now, I'm like, if you just stay consistent and you're actually in shape, it's so easy to, you know, now I peak guys, it's very, easy. Yeah.

Because what I tried to do in the past, like, oh, you got a salt load and then you got a water deplete and you've got a carb load. And you're like, ah, man, just like keep it the same. We keep it simple. Although carb load is fine. But I think people, or at least I over complicated it. Yeah. Because you get so many different pieces of advice.

Not sure, like, am I ready? Am I ready? Should I take this diuretic? Should I do this water load? I'm like, I don't know. So you just always trying new things, you know? Yeah. So it's great to learn, but not great to get the consistent outcome.

Yeah. How common are the GLP's now in bodybuilding? I got to imagine that they're using them in. pre-contest for dieting? I don't know. I don't really keep in touch with a lot of bodybills. I'm honest, man, I haven't been to a show and I went to the Olympia a couple times, but not much.

A guy like you, would you look at, because, you know, I know, this is for everybody. He's always looked back and go, oh, we were so much, you know, harder, you know, it was so much harder for us, but, I mean, looking now, if you saw a bodybuilder using GLP in a pre-contest, would you be like, pussy? Because that's like the hardest part, dude, is like, you're starving yourself. Yeah, but I love that, right?

So I think the thing that bodybuilders miss is like the hard work is the prize, man. Sure. The discomfort. You like the pre-contest diet? I love it. I agree with that. I agree with that. There's something to be said about knowing that most can't do this.

You can't do this. Yeah. I just, there's something about, I mean, this is the people that scoff at bodybuilding as a sport. because oh it's the fact that it's there's never a day off you compare that that's the thing that it makes it like a sport is that name me another sport where you don't get a day off like it's the every thing that you intake is accounted for every workout can't be missed and there's something about knowing that most people can't do that it's just I feel like um if I wasn't suffering I wasn't enjoying it like I was like I was either suffering in the gym or suffering because of the diet

like I wanted I wanted to suffer I loved it you know you could say something about my mental well-being yeah but I think that's I think that there's something about that's what makes you successful at it is that you versus being the person

who complains about it yeah you have to lean into that you have to I don't know how you would make it in a sport like bodybuilding without yeah you wouldn't make it very far I wouldn't think unless you find a way to enjoy that piece so where do you place all that intensity now like as you're well he's Zen now dude

yeah I know you're the Zen You're so chill. You learn that it's a tool. So, you know, I had a lot of aggression as a young kid. I had a lot of, yeah, I guess just aggression is the right word. I had a lot of energy. And I was told that that was bad. I was told that, you know, you're a bad kid.

You're misbehaving. You end up in jail. And I didn't realize it was just a part of me. You know, it wasn't all of me. It was just a part of me. And so I sort of put it away. I thought I was a bad person. I compartmentalized it.

And I was like, oh, you know, I'm a bad person. I made it about me. And what I realized is that was my gift, but nobody ever told me that, man, when you learn to use that, nobody else, not a lot of other people in the world have that level of intensity, that level of commitment, that level of compulsion to move towards something. And if you learn to wield that tool, that weapon, it'll take you far. If it controls you, you'll go in the wrong direction, you know. So I learned through my bodybuilding years, through many other years, whether it be meditation or plant medicines, that, That's just an amazing part of me that I don't want to deny, but I don't need to let it come out every day. You know, it's still there.

Yeah. If I want to access it, it's still there. I think it's a superpower, but it's not useful if I'm having a conversation. It's not useful if I'm, you know, reading to my kids at night. Like, that's not. So I just always think of, like, these different versions of myself and this different level of arousal that I get to kind of play with. You know, I get to be really intense what I need to be, but I get to be really calm and centered and what I need to be. Right.

That's the premise of my business. The business is sort of taking. the shape of what I call the warrior and the monk. So obviously the warrior, self-explanatory is like I want to be able to run, jump, play, fight, all of it, when I need to at the highest level, you know, and then I want to be

able to be the lighthouse in the storm and be calm. So do you do martial arts now for those like bursts of intensity or like just training? So, you know, it's funny. I would love to do martial arts. I actually did a lot of Muay Thai after retiring and I love it. But just finding time in my day now. So like my kids are my top priority.

It's like I'm taking to every sporting event that I can. So it takes up time. It takes up time. So I still get my workouts in. I still get my cardioes in. But trying to make time. Like, you know,

I feel like I had 20 years of selfishness. Now it's time to that I'm no longer the top priority. But once my kids are off to university, I'm sure I'll go back and do something like that. Tell us about your gym. How's that going? And you talked a little bit. You mentioned the culture of your gym a little bit earlier.

So let's talk about that. So when I'm there, I know everyone's name. I know what they're working out that day. I probably know what their wife's name is or their husband's name is. I know what their dog's name is. I know what their kid's name are. So, and it's a culture of making everybody better.

Like, I want to understand you. I want to understand why you're in the gym. I understand why you're struggling. I want to understand what your mental challenges are. And I want to make you better. And because I've done it at a high level, most people will give me the time and be like, okay, I'd love to take some advice.

So, ask me a question. So that creates a standard. So, like, everyone sees me doing it for them, and it lets the guard down, right? No one comes in with a big ego because they know they're not the top of the totem pole. Like, some people are, but there's people, you guys know this.

The people at the top of the totem pole generally aren't the ones with the big egos. It's the ones sort of like... Totally. Try to fight fighting to be there. So I'm very blessed to have a lot of really great athletes in the gym, and we kind of just keep this culture of, you know, supporting each other, caring for each other,

and making everybody better as a common value. Have you had to bury anybody in a workout in there? Often as I can. There it is. Have you had to humble any members? As often as I can. Because I would matter. So what happens too when you're that guy, right, you have that reputation.

I imagine there's always somebody who wants to challenge that. It's funny. So two years ago, I think it was two years ago in June, I tore my labor, my hip, my left hip. I did it during a leg workout. And ever since then, That's the worst bodybuilding injury I've ever had. That sounds horrible. It's horrible.

And ever since then, I can squat and I can deadlift, but I suffer for three or four days. I limp for three or four days afterwards. So my squatting and deadlifting since I did that, I'm like, ah. So I'm like, I've asked about, should I do surgery? Should I not do surgery? Because I don't want to stop the training.

But like, yeah, I love to go, man. But if I go, literally any amount of deadlift, any amount of hard deadlift, I just limp, I look like an old man. So I just, so my training in the last. two years, I'll have to admit reluctantly is taking a bit of a back. So he's not the same as it was before. But ironically, I shifted

into doing a little more sprinting. Yeah. And sprinting feels great. Doesn't hurt my... Interesting. So you can sprint and your hip's okay. Hip's okay. But if I loaded deadlift, even if I put a bar, like a plate on a bar, my hips's going to hurt the next day. Wow. So how'd you hurt it? What were you doing? Leg press. I was trying, again.

Oh, leg press? Bear and somebody. Yeah. Oh, God. Really? How much wage you have on there? A lot. Yeah. But going too deep. A whole weight room. But going too deep. Like, I'm like, ah, shit. A little uncontrolled, you know, just getting stupid. Because you're training with somebody's got to be a goal.

You got to show them up. Damn it. You got 25 anymore, dog. You got 25 anymore. And I even went and got stem cells injected into my hip and didn't make a bit. Like, I have no pain. Unless you do certain things. How often are you able to go in there to your gym?

Oh, well, most days. Oh, awesome. So you're in there all the time? Yeah, most days. Oh, that's great. That's got to be so awesome. I feel like at some point I want to, own a gym. Just, you know, if we ever retire, which I don't know if that'll ever.

No better name than sells. Yeah. People who are. I think it's a pizzeria. Come on in. We'll sell pizza. Take a page out of a planet fitness. But no, I just, it's just the, um, just the environment, you know.

I mean, we have, we actually have trainers here now that train clients. They're so good. And I love walking out and seeing people working out and train together. And it's just the vibe, dude. I just love it. Absolutely love it. So it's got to be so great to be. being there.

Yeah. It's good and bad, right? So for the first four or five years, people weren't allowed in there. And we had coaches, but no, like, public. Yeah. So now, you know, like, imagine somebody came into your office and, like,

used something, fucked it up and then left. What are these people doing, man? I don't respect my... So sometimes they're a little pissed off, but that, you know, I usually run a pretty tight shit. Most people in there are pretty good. I have a very strict, no asshole policy,

so anyone breaks anything, kick them out, or if they, at least, they, you know, act negligently, it will kick him out. I would imagine because, because you keep it so limited that you can almost do like an application process for we did we did well so we have a waiting list oh you do okay we do have waiting list oh so that's kind of cool so then you can you can start to you can kick someone off yeah yeah sparse people out though yeah and i'm like at the point i'm like i need your 300 bucks i'm like fucking take and get out man leave me alone i'd rather have my my peace and my sanity than you're fucking three hundred dollars you're you've been remarkably consistent with uh you know who you are on social media it's been a long time now and uh there's always the allure of the algorithm pulling you in a different direction

and maybe slightly compromising who you are, integrity. But you've remained incredibly consistent. Talk about that a little bit because I know a lot of people try to build their business through social media. And I've seen this, you know, so we've been doing this for a long time too. And you just see this. You just see how people change because the algorithm, you know, is going to reward a certain way of communicating or style or whatever.

Yeah, my team's trying to get me to do it. I just have no desire. Of course they are because that's their job. like, hey, here's what you got to do, get the clicks. Yeah, I have no desire to be anything other than myself, man. And, like, I've had relative success, thank goodness, by being myself. So for me to change, to do something else or be someone else, just, like, this doesn't make

sense to me. Like, I don't want to play someone else's game. I want to play my game. And I think when I'm authentically myself generally comes across pretty well, most people react pretty well. So, yeah, I guess because I've had some version of success, I'm not chasing anything at this point. Yeah.

I think I chase education. I chase knowledge. I chase wisdom. I chase results. And if I just exude those things effectively and I'm myself. And I love solving problems. I think that's why I shifted into coaching people is I basically look at a body the same way I look at a business. I'm like, there's just complex problems to solve.

So you're like, how do I solve this problem in the most efficient way? So I just take those values that I live by and speak them online. When we met each other almost eight years ago, I think it was, you were already successful. So what has over the eight years that we've been friends? What has the business looked like for you as far as like, has it been this even coast? Did you have some tough years that went down? Did you have to pivot a lot? Like what is that kind of journey been like since we've known each other?

Yeah. So prior to COVID, I was doing very well in exactly what you guys are doing. actually the digital programs. That's right. I remember that. That's right. Yep. So we're doing really well on that.

And I was mentoring some coaches. I had, you know, a couple times a year I take on 30 coaches and mentor them. And that was going really well. So the digital programs is always, you know, great revenue, easy to do at the gym. So that was, you know, easy. And then COVID happened and everyone stopped working out. So I was like, well, I got to pivot. So I pivoted into more mentoring of coaches and then taking online clients.

and it wasn't even an intentional I got to like rebuild myself or just like well that income is going to go I'm just going to offer this coaching thing which I had been doing anyways I just sort of ramped it up and that just went really well because I'd been mentoring coaches online

and just plucked the best ones out of the cohort and like hey you want to come work for me and I pay better than anyone else in the industry so I was able to retain the best coaches who've still been with me for five years so that's been sort of the business just the COVID pivot because nobody knew how long was going to last. Sure.

We were going to have gyms are opening again. So that was sort of the biggest pivot. And it was a blessing, you know, like, well, I would love to go back to the e-books and programs and stuff like that. The interpersonal connection that I get from working with clients is remarkable. Yeah. So, like, the income was easy, not easy. It was consistent when I was doing the digital programs.

But I lost connection. Like I wasn't, you know, hugely in touch with clients. And because I wasn't doing bodybuilding anymore, I wasn't really wanting to build muscle. I wasn't trying to, like, get out there and be aggressive in muscle building. So it was just like beautiful opportunity to transition into like mentoring men over 40, coaching men over 40 to, you know, whether it be performance focused or longevity focused. You know, when we first met too, you were also on this lose 100 pounds journey. I did.

Yeah. I got sent to 225, but I felt like ET. I felt really skinny. Was that the lowest? So the lowest you got down with my first. biggest size, dude. 225. And where you hover?

A big structure. Where are you hovering right now? 235, only. Okay, only 10 pounds higher than that. And how much have you had to like scale volume and eating all that? It's very low. Like, man, if I go back to the gym for three weeks consistently, I get bigger again.

Oh, I imagine. Yeah. Do you ever play with that every once in a while? Of course. Okay. I'll say, do you ramp it up? I get some meathead. It comes through the gym and wants to train.

And I'll end up being 260. I know. I was like, damn it. over and that. Okay, so this is something that, you know, I'm approaching 45. And so, you know, I never heard anybody communicate this to me when I was in my 20s or teens. I always heard, oh, it gets so much harder when you get older. And so I just always thought that, man, you know, being fit and being strong and having muscle as you get older is so difficult.

I think that comes from the, if you didn't start until you were. One of the things that I've noticed as I've gotten older is actually how easy it is to stay fit. Keeping muscles easy. Yeah, the amount of training I have to do today, and I don't know if that's a testament to those crazy three, four years of bodybuilding for me or what, but it is wild how little, the kid,

the 20-year-old kid that used to train double days to just gain an extra five or 10 pounds. I mean, I think now it's like, God, I touch a weight, you know, every few days,

and I'll hang on to a lot of my muscle. Like, how has that been for you? And do you communicate that to people? Like, that's one of the things I try and talk to people about, like, man, just... It's a song point, I think. Yeah, stick with it right now because it actually gets easier if you keep building on it for years. Yeah.

It actually surprises me how much strength I've been able to keep and how much muscle that if I want to turn it on, it comes back. Yeah, much more than I would have expected, considering how little I have to do. Way, way. Muscle memory's crazy. Yeah. It's actually remarkable. I know. And we all heard that get thrown around, but I don't think it, I don't know.

I don't know if people explain it well enough because I didn't think it was going to be like that, not like to the level, just like you're saying, like the effort that I have to put towards just to maintain and if I want to turn it on. And I struggle to gain. I did was not a, I didn't put no 50 pounds on in a year or two like. So let me ask you this question. Huh. Is it the same for mobility or is mobility go away faster?

That's an interesting question. So because I have an interesting mobility journey. In fact, when we first met, I was on my kick of like really working on my mobility because it sucked right before that. And one of the things I also talked to these guys, I actually don't have to put nearly in the work for mobility to keep what I put all the hard work in to get it. But what I do have to do is there are certain things, for example, really deep range of motion squats and sit. Like now when I play with my son, I sit in that position, which I couldn't do that 10 years. Yeah, 10 years ago, I couldn't do that. So as long as I do things like that,

I don't have to get down and do the 90-90s and a lot of the mobility work that I had to do to get to there. So in a sense, I am still training that mobile. I'm keeping myself, but I'm not having to put, I used to have to dedicate time. Like, I'm going to spend 30 minutes of just mobility work every day for a couple of years to get to that place. But I still don't have to.

There are certain exercises I just have to do occasionally that maintain that stability, strength, and mobility and range of motion, and it maintains. I don't find myself having to put that much effort either there. It thinks because you probably train. Like, I find, I don't know if you guys agree with this, but I find training has always been exponentially more effective

for improving range of motion than any mobility workouts. Like doing training with great ranges, it's so much more effective. Well, because real mobility is the strength. Yeah, it's range of motion with strength. It's supported. You can't have one of the way. And that's what I mean.

So as long as I do some movements, that encouraged that that I couldn't do before, I'm good. Muscle memory is just, it's also remarkable. When you look at the, just what we know about it, it's crazy. You build 10 pounds of muscle. It could take you a year to be. The average person gets going to be a year to build it.

They could lose it all and then gain it back in a month. I mean, it's just crazy how fast it comes back. I did a thing last year, two years ago now. Two years ago, I did a GLP one thing. So I intentionally took GLP one. For how long? for six months, somewhere on there? Three to six months.

Yeah, three, six months. And my goal was to take my trainer brain out of it. So I wasn't going to go try and hit my protein intake, train really hard. Like, I was like, I'm going to do this. Let's see what happened to be a normie. Yes, I want to be a normie. And if I'm not hungry, I'm not going to eat. If I don't feel like training, I'm not going to try.

I'm just going to take this thing and let it. And boy, was it, I don't know if you've messed with GLP ones at all. I did 30 days. Pool, bro. I mean, I could go a day or two and not eat. Right. And just not think about it. But then I was,

Zempeg or what did? I did, Chisepetide. Yeah. But I tell you what, like I, the fatigue and I mean, it was,

I would, there was days where I had to choose like, either to get a couple exercises in or help my wife around the house because I couldn't do both. Wow. I didn't have enough fuel and energy to do both. Anyways,

lost a ton of weight. Damn near half of it was muscle. So I think I lost a total of 25 or 30 pounds somewhere around there. Half muscle, half, half fat. Yeah. And then I documented on YouTube training to get it back. And of course, everybody thought I was lying. I mean, I did the Dexas scam before to show everything like that.

But I mean, I put on 25 pounds of muscle or 22. What was it, Dylan? 22 in the first month, 30 days, 22 pounds of muscle. And not even- Muscle memory. And not training crazy, like slowly scaling. Totally. I mean, I was like doing two lifts a day, moderate intensity of

volume. I scaled the intensity of volume over time, but with not training like an animal like that. And I put on 20-something pounds of muscle in 30, and changed no other variables. I mean, obviously, I'm eating because I was hungry and off of it. But, I mean, it was a cool, it was a cool experiment. I ran low-dose red of true type for 30 days. Just because I wouldn't, like, have an opinion without, like, I got to see what this actually feels like. Yep. It's, it's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. You don't even think about food. I have a client who's a surgeon who uses it as a, focus aid because he's like, you know, I didn't realize how much, like, talk I have in the back of my mind thinking about food or whatever, it just goes away. So now in surgery, I can just be

completely focused. It's like a neotropic. It's like it's interesting insight. Yeah. There's, studies right now on GLP-like peptides. So this is in the class of that for, um, for alcohol, no, for alcohol abuse, uh, for quitting. Yeah. It works. Yeah. Yeah. But, and so it's really It's a very interesting space to look at right now. Yeah. That's pretty well. There's also been some feedback, though, that people are becoming, I forget the name of the word exactly, but it's, they basically lose sexual desire as well. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. You've seen that? Yeah, we've heard of that. So here's what I want to, here's what I would want to. Passion in general sort of. Right. Yeah, so here's what I would want to like parse out. Because I know it acts on the, however we perceive, you know, hedonistic value in our brain.

So there's definitely that part of it. But I want to know, I want to separate. people who are eating adequately and people are just way under eating. Because you just eat no calories. You're going to lose your desire for sex. You're not going to be as happy. That's the argument that I think.

That's the argument that I would make too, Sal, because I mean, this is what I mean by what I felt. Like, I remember vividly many, many days of being so depleted and coming home from just podcasting. I don't like, we do anything like, come home. I know I need to get a lift in. And all you got to do is get in the garage,

do a co-list. And it's like, but I also, I want to play with my kid and I want to help my wife. And I was just like, I had to choose. It might be one of those things where it's not the GLP, but the fact that you're eating nothing. So, but I'd like to see that. I'd like to see people.

It's like when people do the keto flu, it's like, well, it's not keto flu. You just need sodium. And then suddenly it goes away. Like, I'd like to see when people actually eat adequately on a GLP, if you still see people who are like, I'm losing, you know, desire for things. My guess is that it's mostly that.

We actually trained a, group, 50 people on GLPs. And one thing that was crazy was how many of them would plateau. Oh, my God. Because they'd lose a lot of weight, but their calories got so low that it's like, where are going to go? You got 1,200 calories. And you got 30 pounds to go.

Man, so I had a client, been with me for maybe two months. He messaged me three days ago. He goes, hey, just want to let you know that I've been ramping up my retitutide dose. I'm now at 10 milligrams twice a week. And I was like, whoa. And he's like, but I'm still getting some more. cravings, can I go higher? And I was like, whoa, man, that's crazy. It's like people are using it, like, this guy specifically is using it to, like, eradicate any thought of food. I was like, man,

what about just like, you know, he won't eat. He'll eat once a day, maybe. Like, it's crazy how people are just sort of stuck in this rut or this, this belief system, like, this is going to solve all my problems. And if it's not doing it adequately, I need to take more. Like, hold on, man, that's not how this stuff, how I would categorize this stuff for sure. The other side, too, I share this on the podcast with the guys, so I have some people close to me that are taking it too. Now, even though I took my trainer brain out of my whole experiment,

what I didn't take an account for is just I've still got years of good healthy behaviors around food, exercise. And so when I would taste something that wasn't healthy for me, I was bland, I didn't like it. And I realized, I recognize that, man,

I'm eating so low that's a nutritious plate. sounded good to me. And so I craved actually the better foods. And I, so even though I wasn't doing anything going on my way, I still actually preferred chicken and rice and, like, real,

like healthy stuff. When I see other people who don't have that connection at all, I literally, they're just eating less. Yeah, they're eating twice a day, but it's fire Cheetos. And then they're on their toilet,

just fucked up. And not connecting the dots are like, you know that that's what's doing that, right? They don't get it. They still don't. And so, and they're losing weight because, They're only eating, you know, 800 calories of fire Cheetos.

Right. And they're paying for it on the toilet all day long. And then still going back to it. It's like, whoa, that's crazy that this thing is working. It's keeping them from eating hardly anything. But even the signal of you are effed up every time you do that is not enough. It's a reward, right? I'm doing good.

So I'm going to reward more myself with Cheetos. And wildly, I was asking him because I remember, I'm like, because I remember also doing this. Ice cream has always been my kryptonite. And I had some in the freezer doing the gym. you up going and Katrina would be asking me. She's like, do you not even want? I'm like, no, I have no, I have no, I have no, because I haven't wanted it. She's like, well, I wonder if you tried it if you'd feel different.

I'm like, okay, you know, I'll try it one day. So I decided to go in there and I took a bite of it. I'm like, wow, that's the first time my life ever took a bite of ice cream and I didn't taste good. And I had no desire for another bite. So which, and I asked this person, same thing. I'm like, does it, does it taste good to you when you have? And she's like, no.

And I'm like, and you're still doing it. So there's not even the reward system of this. taste good, it's more that they just have a habit of that shit, that I still gravitate towards that, even though it doesn't have those, it's not hitting those pleasure signals the same way. I think what we're going to do with GLP 1, just because people are, just the way that they're going to be used, they're just going to take them. And I think what we're going to do is come out of an obesity epidemic and just go face first into a frailty epidemic. That's what I think so happened. Because you're seeing people reporting. And unbarredited issues. Yeah, because you're starting to see people reporting

osteopenia, you know, because they're just, they're not strength training. They're not eating enough, their protein intake is low, and they're just losing weight. And they didn't have, and they're losing muscle. And they didn't have a lot of muscle to lose to begin with. And so, the big thing that I'm seeing is digestive issues. Like people's microbiome being dysfunctional, like, motility slows way down. Way down, right? So like, that's going to be a huge problem. That's going to lead to like a whole slew of, whether it be small intestinal material overgrowth, whether it be autoimmunity. Like, it's going to be some issues coming at digestive tracks. Well, and it ties back to it. So,

part of by slowing it down like that, those foods like fire cheaters don't digest well. And then they get that feedback. What I found quickly was like, when I was eating good food, I didn't have any of that issue. As soon as I ate out of bounds, like, oh, just back too up. A lot of people aren't talking about either is the rising resting heart rate. 25% I saw. That was a Zempec, which is extremely high. Yeah.

And it's higher with Reda True Tide it looks like. Really? Yeah, because of the triple agonism. And so what some people are reporting is insomnia. elevated heart rate, a little bit of anxiety from it. So that'll be interesting as more people use it to see what's going on. But you can predictably, based on the data, get a rise in resting heart rate just from going on one.

Yeah, I saw that in Ozempica. I haven't seen it in red or shootout. But to be honest, I haven't been looking. So I'll look more closely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll see what happens. Have you looked at genetic considerations, whether it be around GLPs or specifically how,

and this is interesting to speaking about your friend with the Cheetos. there's a lot of different genetic considerations on how people perceive food at level of the brain, the level of the palate, the level of the digestive tract. There's a whole different number of levels that. So if you run somebody's genetic panel, you can see how they're going to respond to food. You can see levels of impulsivity. You can see they may have, you know, low leptin levels. You can see very specific things. And so I think that's going to be the next level of, you know, precision when it comes to these GLPs. We're going to start looking at your genes saying like, hey, this is. is the exact mechanism by which you're going to fail. So if I look at somebody's genetic profile, I can see, you know, maybe this person has a lower sensitive palate to fats. So when they eat

cashews or peanut butter, they're going to want to eat more of it because, you know, we have a different level of satiation in the mouth. Some people get a little bit and they're good. Some people are going to wait all of it. And you can literally see the genes for that. So like, okay, and then you ask the question like, hey, do you have a tendency to overeat when you eat fats? Yes, I do. Great. We can see that happen. genetically, and we can say like, okay, this is where this person is most likely to break down. Yeah, that's the next level of precision that's, we're not far off. Like, I think we can get a pretty good insight.

I mean, imagine that for coaching, how cool that would be just to know, to have that insight. So we do that now. We shifted to coaching about 18, maybe 24 months ago now. So we work with a team of geneticists and everyone, the insights are remarkable because it just allows you to be so much more effective. Yeah, no, of course. I mean, we all, we tell, we teach our trainers this. One of the keys of being a great coach and trainer is the ability to forecast,

for your client. Right. You know, can you tell them the hurdles and challenges that they're going to have before they have it? Right. Huge difference versus. They're explaining their challenges they've been having. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Because, I mean, otherwise, you just start training this person. Then they have those things. And then it's like, oh, they're blaming the not lack of results or the struggles are having on you. It's like, it's like, whereas if I tell my client that, hey, listen, this is what's

going to happen. Week four, you're going to feel like. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to increase calories initially. And you're going to feel this way. you're going to be holding a little bit more water. It's going to scale's going to go up.

That's all normal. Then you're going to see. So if you can tell them what's going to happen before it happens, your ability to coach them through that process. Genetics allow you to identify the constraint. So like everyone, you know, Sal is going to diet. You're going to diet. Justin's going to die. We're going to feel a different constraint along the way, right?

Constraint may be, I'm hungry. Constraint may be I don't want to eat. Maybe the constraint is I have cravings. And there's a wide different array of how we would be constrained in a diet or any type of approach to a fitness plan. So looking at your genes, I can literally look at everyone's genes and go, this is going to be your constraint. This is where you're going to struggle. And if we can identify in advance, we can also change it. We can also plan for it.

So like, I don't know exactly where Adam's going to struggle, right? And so some people are going to be prone to anxiety. Some people are going to have high-level baseline adrenaline. So they're going to be fidgety and they're going to want to cheat on their diet to compensate for the adrenaline. We can literally see so much at the level of the genes. It's very cool. Very interesting. It's always a good time having you on the show, do you?

It's always a lot of fun, my friend. It's been too long. Yeah, it's good to see. Yeah, we gotta do this again soon, not wait eight years. Yeah. I'm gonna drag you guys down in Tampa. Yeah, I know. You're so far.

That's the thing. We're safe distance. I know. It's shorter when you come over here. It is. I want to come training your gym, dude. That was one of my favorite gyms I'd ever train in. I thought it was just one of the best ones.

If you want to put on some muscle, you let me know. Don't encourage this guy, dude. I'll be there tomorrow. Don't encourage this guy. I'll be there. Tell me, why are you doing this? What's going on with you? What's your goal?

Nothing just... Oh, no, it's an addiction, dog. No, it's always been. Well, of course it is. Yeah, it's always been. Yeah, no, he openly admits it. No, there were two, there were two big, big things that made a big impact. One of them, which was big, was, I finally figured out what was wrong in my gut health.

I finally fixed. I had struggled with gut health for so long and done so many things. And it was just, there was a certain amount of food I could eat, and then I ended up getting problems. And it was like, I don't know, maybe 10 years of just, on and off, on and off. And the way that I would solve it when you'd get real bags, I'd have to fast and then I'd have to do all these other things. And so it was just very limited by it.

You can never believe what it was. I had to treat myself for parasites. And once I did the treatment for parasites, it fixed my gut issues. So when that got better, I mean, I was able to absorb what I could eat and I could eat normally. That made a huge difference. And then hormone replacement therapy on top of it made a big difference.

We got tested. somebody offered to test us for free because I want to work with us. My testosterone came back in the floor. And I didn't know it was in the floor. But once I got that up, it was great. That's right. You weren't on hormone therapy when we all first met him, huh? No.

I had gut health issues and maybe low testosterone back then. I had no idea. So hormone therapy, fix my gut, and then anadryl. Those are the three things. That's it. 600 milligrams. You're trying to weed. That's it.

That's it. I made a huge different. gut health thing alone, probably 15 pounds of muscle, just from my gut health alone. It was such a big deal. That's it. Where did you get parasites? Huh? Like traveling?

Who knows, dude? You know, I think, you know, that's a great topic. I think, I don't think it's, obviously, it's not super common in the sense that you're not going to eat. I thought it is if you eat sushi on a regular basis. Well, what I was going to say is, look, you live in a modern society, and you've been eating raw vegetables or sushi for 20 years. The odds are you've probably got to be.

a parasite at some point. So I don't think you need to treat yourself for parasites every six months or every year. But I think the average person encountered parasites at some point. Yeah, of course. And so I test it or you just took the protocol and you felt better. So my wife got tested. She had a parasite and they're like, well, you guys are married. So you probably got the parasite too.

So I went on a protocol with her and it was like, I was like miraculous. It was crazy. There was a period of healing afterwards. So it was like right away I'm better. But I could tell I was a lot better. and then the months afterwards, it was like, oh, man, huge difference. And that easily account for 13 to 15 pounds of muscle, no problem. Wow.

Just from that. Yeah. Now he eats eight times a day and trains like crazy. No, my train's not crazy. He's got your bodybuilder. That's it, man. But is it specifically goal-oriented or you're just sort of doing it to have fun? I love it.

I love it. But I'm mental. So it doesn't matter what direction I'm going. It's going to get mental sometimes. If I'm trying to get big, you're going to get obsessed. If I'm trying to get shredded, I'm going to get obsessed. If I'm trying to get strong, I'll get obsessed. So I think I'll toggle between the three of those.

Keep myself in check a little bit. Why not? For the rest of your life. You know what I mean? So that's... And then I have access to peptides all day long, so... I'm the worst guy to have access to... I mean, he's the best and the worst.

He's the best and the worst because he's the... Who are you guys using for peptides? He's used everything. What am I used? Ask what he has not used. What are you're not used? I've tried them all. I've tried most of them.

I love BP. I saw your name on the Seeds website. I was like, oh, fellow. I'm going to be speeding there. I'm going to speaking there. No. I'll be speaking there. I love BPC and thymicin beta.

Love those. Combine those together. Just for like inflammation? You know, I get a different quality of the way my muscles look. I recover better. Maybe the upregulation of growth hormone receptors. I'm not sure.

Growth hormone? Are you taking test? No, no, I'm on all the hormone optimization. So growth hormone, testosterone, thyroid. Testosterone is the max that they'll allow me to take, which is 200. Growth hormone is one to two I use a day, thyroid, 120 milligram, 120 of the armor every morning.

So it's like the whatever, you know, the optimization. Did you guys ever have Dr. Tieri Hurtag on the podcast? No. So he's the head of an international hormone society. He's been on my show. He's a great authority in hormones. He's the same. He's in his mid-60s.

And he says, every man should be taking testosterone, growth hormone, thyroid. At least, he said probably oxytocin as well, every man. He's like, otherwise, why? Why are you living? What are you doing? Yeah. Part of the problem. I feel like Dr. Seasons would concur to that.

I mean, it improves the quality of your life. I think if you're not, look, Doug, I'll give you an example of someone who doesn't need testosterone. Doug comes back. His testosterone levels come back 11, 1,200, naturally. Wow. Yeah. Naturally. Animal.

Yeah. Total animal. And he's almost a raging beast back there. He's, yeah, the healthiest one at all of us. And he doesn't take any of that stuff. Yeah. But one of the issues, too, is I'll get blood work done. And it comes.

and the doctor's like, man, you've got the best looking blood work I've ever seen. So that just makes me cool. I just take more peptides then. I guess I'm okay. I'll wait until something comes back and red flag and then I'll change it. That's good, man. Yeah, that's good stuff. Good shit, dude.

All right. Yeah, good having you, bro. Thanks, boys. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super bundle at Mind Pumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic.

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