Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2928: Being Fat and Fit Is Objectively Better Than Being Skinny and Unfit — Here's the Data

Episode Date: August 21, 2026

MAPS BOGO: https://mapsbogo.com Buy one get one free — mix and match any of the top 10 most popular programs (Anabolic, Aesthetic, Performance, 15 Minutes, Anywhere, Symmetry, Starter, Muscle Mommy, Powerlift, 40+) for $157.   In this episode the guys break down why being fat and fit is objectively better than being skinny and unfit across every major health metric — longevity data, energy levels, pain and injury risk, and hormone health. They cover the research showing fit overweight individuals have similar or better mortality outcomes than normal weight but unfit people, why frailty is actually one of the highest risk categories in medicine, and why the look people chase by restricting often leads to worse health and worse aesthetics. They also get into Hadi Choopan's legendary pyramid squat session on the Smith machine working up to 500 pounds and back down, Rho Nutrition's liposomal creatine solving the digestion issue for people who can't handle regular creatine, Procter and Gamble acquiring Thorne and what it signals about where the wellness industry is heading, Philip Morris buying food companies in the 1970s and applying their addiction science to processed food, Crisp Power protein pretzels and why the combination of high protein and fiber produces unusual satiety, an Anthropic study where scientists planted a thought in Claude's neural network and it became aware something was wrong, and Myspace relaunching with a no-algorithm model led by the brothers who say they originally conceived the idea behind Facebook. Then they answer questions submitted through Instagram.   SPONSORS   Crisp Power (protein pretzels): https://www.crisppower.com/mindpump Code: MINDPUMP for 10% off. 28g protein per bag, high fiber, zero added sugar, vegan.    Rho Nutrition (liposomal creatine, NAD+ and Glutathione): https://www.rhonutrition.com/discount/MINDPUMP Code: MINDPUMP for 20% off everything.    Paleo Valley (grass-fed fermented meat sticks): https://paleovalley.com/mindpump 15% off automatically applied at checkout, no code needed.   LINKS   Mind Pump Store: https://mindpumpstore.com Maps Fitness Products: https://mapsfitnessproducts.com Instagram: @mindpumpmedia 0:00 - Intro 1:54 - Being fat and fit is better than being skinny and unfit — the data breakdown 5:18 - Why frailty is one of the highest risk categories in all of medicine 11:55 - Metabolic flexibility, muscle as storage and why fitness is the real multiplier 19:42 - Does looking better actually make you happier? What the data says 27:10 - Hadi Choopan's legendary pyramid squat session — 500 pounds on the Smith machine 33:18 - Greatest gym feats — the guys share their own legendary training moments 39:40 - Rho liposomal creatine — solving the digestion problem for people who can't handle regular creatine 41:32 - Procter and Gamble acquires Thorne — what it signals about the wellness industry 45:23 - Philip Morris bought food companies in the 1970s and applied their addiction science to processed food 53:34 - Crisp Power protein pretzels — why the protein and fiber combination creates unusual satiety 55:03 - Claude's neural network study — AI became aware something was planted inside it 1:01:35 - Myspace is relaunching with no algorithms — and the founders' connection to the Facebook story 1:04:36 - Q&A: What AB exercises are actually worth doing? 1:07:39 - Q&A: If muscle memory is real, why not do an aggressive cut and regain muscle after? 1:09:47 - Q&A: How to bulletproof the QL and lower back 1:11:10 - Q&A: Should you eat before a 5am workout?  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump with your hosts. Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the number one health, fitness, and entertainment podcast in history approaching over half a billion downloads. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, we answered listeners questions. We went to Instagram, the Mind Pump media page.

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Hit pause. Head on over to mindpustore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. All right, this might be controversial, but it's true. You're ready? Being fat and fit is better

than being skinny and unfit. We're going to go through the data. We're going to break it down. We're going to explain to you that it's actually objectively better. Justin's been trying to tell us this for a long time. Fat ease. Fat ease.

Stop. So I think before we get into the conversation, we got to preface this with just some clarity, okay? Being over fat. So having a body fat percentage that's over a particular percentage. And when you look at the data, for men, you start to see this around 20 percent. For women, you might see this around 30 percent, give or take, depending on the person. It does have an effect on your health. Okay, so regardless of your fitness level, having excessive body fat beyond a certain

point, no matter what will have a negative effect on your health. So what we're not saying is that it's equal. Everything's equal. It doesn't matter. But what we are saying is between the two, just comparing those two. If you're overweight and fit, you're doing way better in most metrics, if not all metrics, than someone who is underweight and unfit. And the reason why we're talking about this is oftentimes we chase the underweight unfit look because we think that's what's going to make us happier when in fact the data shows it's not true. Well, that's a large range, right? For men to be able to go all the way to 20 percent, women go all the way to 30 percent, that gives you a lot of flexibility. And so, yeah, I would, I mean, in personal experience,

I think I've felt the healthiest in the mid-teens, you know, where I have the best energy, the best sleep, the best overall strength. Also, the most easy to have a balanced lifestyle, too, as far as I can have the occasional drink with the wife at dinner. I don't have to be tracking and weighing everything. It's a, I think a relatively easy place to kind of manage and stay. Once you start trying to get yourself into, for a man, single digits, it's, it becomes a job to stay that lean. And then I would argue that I am not the strongest. I don't sleep the best. I'm not the healthiest. But the only thing working for me at that point is the aesthetic piece, what you look like.

Well, and even that, we can even debate. So when you look at the data on longevity, okay, the category of people, the categories, I should say, of people that have the worst longevity metrics, okay, are the very unfit and very obese and the frail. In fact, frailty is a higher risk factor in many cases, especially to get older. So frailty is defined as like underweight and weak, right? No strength. That has some of the worst mortality metrics that we see. And so it's important to understand the two of them.

Now, with longevity, when you look at the data, it's pretty wild because I pulled up some studies. I pulled up some of the best studies I could find around this. And here's what they find. Being unfit people in every BMI category had roughly two to three times higher risk of all cause mortality. So if being unfit anywhere increases your risk of all cause mortality pretty significantly. fit overweight obese individuals have risks similar to or in many cases,

this is a meta analysis, better than unfit normal weight individuals. So if you're a guy and you're walking around 15% body fat, so decent leanness, you're not overweight, but you know, you just go to work. You just go to work, come home. You're not like working out. You're not fit.

A guy who's 50 pounds heavier. Okay, so 50 additional pounds of body fat, which is a significant amount. But who's also fit, strong, and has some cardiovascular fitness, has similar or better longevity metrics than you do, say? So that just goes to show how far being fit goes for people when it comes to longevity. 50 pounds?

Yeah. Is this like our powerlifter kind of archetype? I wouldn't use that as an example because... It's still extreme. Yes. When we talk about like competitive athletes, we're now sacrificing... Well, I mean maybe a weekend warrior. Yes.

So what the data is... a better way to say. Somebody who is not like a competitor. I'm glad you said that. Aspiring kind of like heavy lifter. I'm glad you said that because in the data, what they're not showing or what they're not using is elite performance. Right.

So when I say fit, I'm not talking about like I do triathlons or like I'm like the strongest guy in my gym type of deal. You lift and. That's right. You're active. You're active. You'll work out consistently. You're decently fit in comparison.

You're 50. I want to go back to the 50 pounds you said. That's relative to what. You say used a 15% I'm picturing my buddy who weighs probably about 170 pounds to 180 pounds and probably manages himself between 15 to 18% body fat

doesn't work out. Yeah. So he just doesn't really eat good. He moves, he has a physical job that he does. He moves a lot and, you know, obviously doesn't crazy overeat.

So he's got a somewhat active lifestyle, but doesn't exercise as a strength train. Yeah. At his body size, 170-ish, 50 more pounds. So it's not a perfect comparison because if someone, if your buddy did work out and exercise, yeah, he'd also have more muscle on his friend. For sure.

Yeah, the muscle really is the determining factor here for the most part. Strength, yeah, well, it's fitness. So I'm glad you said that. Well, I guess that's it. So I guess that's where I'm trying to get with this. I'm trying to, I'm giving a number just to kind of paint a picture. Yeah. But what the data shows is obese.

Okay, so there's overweight and obese. And then there's extreme obesity. So we're not there yet, but overweight slash obese fit is better, is the same or better than normal weight person. So you're carrying a lot of body fat, but you're still also carrying a decent amount of muscle. Which means he would have to be at, so, okay, the obese meter tips at what for men, 25? They don't go by body fat percentage. They go by BMI. But let's just say he's at like, let's say he's at 24.

Let's say he's at 25. So let's say he's 15 now. Yeah. Yeah. So you put 10. But he's athletic now. Now he can run, move, lift. So 50 pounds, he probably puts on 20 muscle, 30 fat.

Maybe. Maybe. So just to... I don't know what body fat percentage that would put him at. Let's just say he's 50 pounds heavier on the scale. Yeah. And his body fat percentage went up to 25%. Yeah.

But now he can move. He can run. He can lift. He's as good or a lot of the data shows better than he is now. And I'm going to argue... He's better in other categories. Yeah. Not just longevity.

The number one indicator there, or the biggest needle mover there, I would think, is the lean tissue and what it does for you metabolically. 100%. From insulin sensitivity, from storage. Oh, yeah. We could really get into it. Yeah. Like, that is, I mean, one of the best parts of all the years of lifting when I look back now is the metabolic flexibility that I have today. ability to be able to eat out of bounds a little bit. And literally, so I can have, I just did this

last week. So last week, I was, I was pretty low calorie. I could see how depleted I was. I was dropped like six, seven pounds on the scale. Also, the wife always comments, you're looking skinny. I don't like, I'm like, relax. I'm just depleted right now. Like, don't worry. I'll eat a sandwich and you'll see a difference. My wife would never say. Oh, Katrina. She knows what they'll do that. Yeah, yeah. She knows. She knows. She knows I've worked through that. So it's okay. right. I said, honey, I'm not. I said, I'm down a few pounds, but it's mostly water. Now you're leaving your shirt

on when you guys get into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By Winnie the Pooh thing. Double shirts. You know that's how I do that. Turn the lights off. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, we, so then we go, we had the, you know, we had the car event this last weekend. So we were at hotels, eating out, had drinks, did a thing. And I even had, I told you that we ordered that,

that movie thing, the, yeah, whatever. So I had desserts. I hadn't done that in a while. And just, I mean, everything filled out. And she's... And it's not body fat. Oh, yeah, it's not body fat. I didn't do anything.

The next day, she's like, oh, my God, you look, oh, you look amazing. She'd give me... I'm like, yeah, I just ate a bunch of calories and filled out all those muscle billies. And what you were looking at or commenting on four days before is what it looks like when I stay low calorie for a while and deplete everything. It's just wild that. And why I'm bringing this up is because if I didn't have those muscle bellies, I didn't have that muscle I worked it. All of that extra eating on a day like that goes overspills and goes into storing body fat. Where the person who's put on 20 pounds of muscle now have these giant like vessels of storage that the person without those 20 pounds doesn't have.

And to be clear when you look again, when you're over simplifying. No, you are. But trying to make it. But you paint it a very clear picture. And again, to be clear, when you look at the data, we're looking, okay, lean body mass is very important. But what's more important is fit lean body mass. Because when you look at the studies on like mortality risk or longevity, what they're testing is the output, it's strength or it's V-O-2. They're not looking at you have this much muscle on your body.

Now, having more muscle oftentimes, most of the time, translates to better fitness, better strength, better mobility. But it has to be active. But it's got to be fit is what it is because you could have somebody with just genetically more muscle, but add a shape. Yeah. Totally unfit. And they're not going to get the protective benefits as somebody. who has less muscle, let's say, but it's fit muscle. Yeah.

It's active muscle. That's the big difference. Right, right. Because there's another layer to what I'd said, too, where I'm actually going and putting that muscle to work all week on, which also is expending a lot more. That's right. And you work out and do all work. Yeah. So it's like there's, you have these larger storage vessels that are also active storage vessels that need even more energy because you're going to go put them to work.

So it's like this, it's a double win. 100%. This is also why, too, you hear us communicate this, especially with so many callers. are female collars that want to lean out or lose body fat is to build into the body you want versus trying to cut into the body you want. You're far better off. Your quality of life is better

because you're trying to maintain being underweight and also being unfit, we'll just call it frailty. That's not a very good quality of life. First of all, you're all, first off, oftentimes, unless you have some kind of disease or eating disorder, which is a whole separate category. And a lot of this we could say maybe tips

into this, but there's a lot of people who simply restrict. Now, they might not be clinically diagnosed as having an eating disorder, but they're, they're consistently afraid of gaining weight, so they just kind of restrict themselves. They don't really work out much. They like the fact that they're, quote, unquote, skinny, but they're frail. Their quality life is way worse than the same version of them who, let's say, has 10% more body fat, but is also working out fit. That brings tons of other things like energy and all that stuff, but also the flexibility of like, I'm not so afraid you're so much more vulnerable. That's right.

I mean, even to like any kind of like virus or, you know, obviously it's going to affect your bones to that level where, you know, other tissue gets affected because you're not expressing, you know, that resistance against force. And so, yeah, you're kind of leaving yourself susceptible for all kinds of, you know, potential injuries and sickness. The worst category of people, as defined by people who have the highest risk of complications, from surgery or chronic illness are people who are frail. Yep.

It's the worst. You're going in to get surgery and you're frail, oh, oh, or you get a major, you get a big illness and you're already frail. Recovering is a nightmare. It's not good. And let's also look. Let's look, again, this is just just numbers, you guys. If you look at the percentage of people who get diabetes or heart disease or cancer who are

normal weight or underweight, okay, because we know that being overfat, independent of anything else. Now, if you're fit, it really does a lot for this. But just to a certain extent, being over fat is a risk factor for diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. We know this. And yet, there is a significant percentage, not a majority, but it's a significant percentage to the tune of tens of millions of people in America who are this, who are normal weight or underweight who still get heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. And they're all unfit, all of them. You know, you keep saying frailty, right? And I think most people's minds automatically

go to like the old. We got a lot of frail, not old people. So do you remember, do you guys remember the first time you experienced this? I was only, I was like, I want to say it was like 22. So I'm only like two years into being a personal trainer. And I got this, I think she was a, was she a cheerleader? She was a cheerleader or a model.

Real pretty, real pretty thin, real thin, pretty girl. And I'm taking her body, she's hired me for training. And I'm taking her body fat percentage. And I thought I was doing something wrong because of how high her body fat percentage was. Because she looked very skinny, right?

And yet I kept, I get no muscle. And I kept doing it over and over, like, you know, trying to keep cool like I knew what I was doing. I'm going like, this isn't looking. This isn't adding up. First time I'd ever experienced that from that direction. I experienced the other direction too where somebody was like super ripped

and I thought they were gonna be bigger too. So it's been, I remember both those big extreme examples of someone like that. And I remember asking her about her diet and she ate like celery. Yeah. Like to keep her weight.

Yeah, she under ate all forever. Yeah. To just to keep her weight down like that. She was hiring me to help her build some muscle and stuff. But I couldn't believe how high of a body fat percentage somebody so skinny could be. And it, and it blew my mind.

That was a first time. I was like 22. I've obviously experienced it. Oh, yeah. We have other times. I've had many clients. And I had, so I've told this story a long time ago, if you guys remember this. But I got to train what one of the 49ers wives. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And he has a Samoan guy. Yeah, yeah. And he has Simone wife. It was the first time ever I was so, like I've gotten, as we all probably have, really good at looking at someone and being able to put the scale within probably five or ten pounds. That's a trainer skill. Yeah. And I would crush those circus.

Yeah, yeah, I'm so good at that. And I've gotten really, really dialogue. And I'm also smart enough to know if I get one of my female clients on there. If I'm guessing, I'm better not overshoot. I'm going to undershoot a little bit so I don't get hit, you know. And I'll never forget this girl gets on here, right? She's a Samoan chick. And I could tell she's, you know, she's pretty thick, you know.

And I'm like, you know, in my head I'm going, she's probably 170 or so. I'm going to start at like 155, 160. You know what I'm saying? So I put it in the thing, not moving. I'm like, slide it over five more. Slide it over some more. She's 201 pounds, okay? But her body fat percentage is crazy lean.

She's in like the lower, like athletic percentage. And when she lift her shirt up for me to do, you're thinking, abs. Yeah. But just a brick house, dude. And like so wild to see that. But just shows you how different body types and different levels of.

of weight, like weight. So this girl's 200 pounds, but super lean, but just all muscle. Well, there's also this piece, too, which is, and how many times we have callers, I'll just illustrate this, how many times we have callers where we tell them to increase their cal, first off, it's often. We get a little bit of a self-selection bias of people that tend to restrict, right? Because they're fitness enthusiasts, they listen to the show, they call them for help. All we do is have them oftentimes bump their calories.

And they come back on what do they say? I've got way more energy. It's transformative. I feel so different. Calories, ladies and gentlemen, is energy. Yeah. If you're not taking in enough, if you're taking in just enough to survive because you're constantly restricting yourself,

you don't have extra energy to give you confidence or creativity to build or libido or energy to do anything else. You feel crappy a lot and tired a lot and maybe depressed or anxious a lot. And it might just be you're not taking in. enough nutrients. Yeah. And we just had a caller earlier. A guy.

One of the biggest reasons for plateaus. It is. And we had a guy just on who we bumped his calories a thousand. And he comes back on. He's like, oh my God, I'm way more energy. Didn't gain a pound on the scale. Didn't gain a pound on the scale. What did that extra thousand?

60 days of a thousand calorie increase. That's right. And if you're not taking in enough calories and you're tired just doing your regular day, God forbid you had exercise on top of that. Right. And now you don't get any of the benefits of exercise. You're not fueling yourself. And exercise is the most powerful.

antidepressant that we know of. So being fat and fit gives you more energy and a better outlook and a better attitude and a better mood. We're not going to get the benefits of the exercise if you're not feeding it. 100% giving it the nutrients to recover. So, yeah, it's kind of futile. You also have less pain. Yeah.

Being frail will make you hurt more. Period. End of story. Risk of injury goes through the roof. Your CNS is constantly trying to protect your joints because of the instability caused by your frailty. because you're not feeding yourself enough. And so you're moving in ways that aren't optimal.

And you wonder why you get repeated injuries or tweaks or pain. Being fit and strong, of course, with the proper training means you have way less pain. But that look is such a powerful force for people. I'm glad you brought that up, Justin, because I looked up the data. How much does looking beautiful actually contribute to happiness when you separate it from other factors, right? because they could say looking beautiful makes it more likely that you'll attract somebody who'll want to date you. So there's relationship value.

There's, you know, when you separate all that out, just looking better versus looking not as good, which I'm going to argue anyway. Let's just say this objectively true. Yeah, we'll dispel that.

It's actually a low contributor to happiness. In other words, it barely budges the number. So if you're a six and you spend all your time and energy to get up to a nine, you're going to go up maybe a little bit. Is it fair, though, to tease those other things out? It is. Why?

It is totally fair. Why is that fair? Because can you point, let me put it as it. How much of that, which we're going to get to, is a result of how you view yourself versus how other people actually view you? In other words, is your confidence and you going out and you talking with people and your energy and the fact that you feel better because you're stronger and the fact that you have more flexibility with your diets, so you're going out with people and you're socializing,

how much of that plays a role in you having friends. Is you a projected confidence? 100%. I mean, that's a fair argument. Yes. Yeah, it's a fair. It's hard to tease that out, though, in my opinion, just because you got to, if somebody, and again, playing to devil's advocate with you, because you got somebody who improves

their self from a six to a nine. We know what it does in sales. We know what it does from attracting a mate, all those other things, which then also make you, could make you happier too. so it's hard to just completely. So it's like, let me throw a wrench in a world. Okay.

And, you know, I think about this as a father. The number one thing that I could give my son is confidence. Like I want to give him self-confidence. Forget what everybody else thinks. Like be confident in who you are. And then having that trickles all the other things, right? So I know the value of that,

but to just take away, to separate someone going from a six to nine to how that improves their relationship values with friends or relationship with friends with the opposite sex with all of things. Let me throw a wrench at that. What you're saying? I'm going to throw a wrench at that machine. You attract a mate based on your beauty. Are you going to have a good relationship? If it's just based on your beauty. That's your number one. This is it.

Well, again, that's not fair to say that either. We all use our eyes, okay, those of us that are not blind. We do. The first thing, but when you first saw your wife, you didn't see her brain. You saw, she was attractive, which made you then communicate and talk to her. It then led you to all the other beautiful things about her. But again, I'll add to that. The happiest marriages, not to go off on a tangent, the happiest marriages are people in their 60s who have been together for one time. Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree with that. You built, you build, you build, you're out there. Your love is

grown. You build a relationship. But let's be honest, if Jessica was a two, you wouldn't have approached her. Well, so again, let me, let me, let me add to that. When we talk about this, I mean, you wouldn't have. Well, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, what we're, what we typically, what we typically, what we typically, what we typically, consider is like extremes. We think of like extreme beauty, extreme not good looking. Most people are somewhere in the middle and devoting all their time and energy to try to accomplish what they think looks good, which results oftentimes in skinny and unfit, does not contribute to happiness. And when you add everything else up contributes to being less

happy. But let's talk about the objectiveness of the beauty. Let me give you guys a scenario. a 29% body fat woman with muscle versus a 20% body fat woman who is frail. All day. Yeah, all day. Which one's more attractive? Yeah, give me the one that has shape to her for sure. 100%. And they do this with women.

When women look at pictures of men, 10% frail, 18, 19, 20% muscle, women almost always, if not every time pick the heavier, fatter guy who's got some muscle. So it's also false. This belief that we have is false. and people who restrict themselves to this skinny frail kind of place have this belief that maybe is making them look better. Yeah. No, I mean, I don't disagree with that.

I think everyone has, not everyone, that's an oversimplication. But I think a lot of people have a distorted view. Totally. Of their own, their own body. I actually, it creates behaviors within that parameter. So if I'm like restricting, restricting, and then like, you're going to bleed that into your relationship. 100%.

Like, the way you're interacting. thing is going to affect, you know, the longevity of that relationship. Yeah. And again, just, again, we'll talk extremes, although 99.9% of people are not in the extremes who are listening. But we know very, we know some very beautiful people in the fitness space who have lots of followers. They're the extremes.

Nobody looks like them. Okay. They're popular because of how they look. And, but a lot of them are very unhealthy. Yeah, miserable. And miserable. Yeah, yeah. So my point is, I don't think it's objectively more beautiful.

I can make that argument all day. but even if it was, it doesn't contribute to what you think is going to contribute. And I think the direction of this is like, look, like, if you're like, really, like, try. I think we need a better study because I think, like... I think there's also a lot of potential on the other end. I think, I think it moves the...

I think it's a lot like the wealth curve. I think, like, the difference between poverty and having all your needs met is life-changing. The difference between having all your needs met and being a millionaire and then a millionaire to a billionaire, incremental, hardly anything. And yet the sacrifice, the work, the effort and everything to do all those things,

diminishing return, arguably more miserable because you get there and it doesn't make heavy. I think the, the, uh, whatever, sexiness curve, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. It's similar to that. It's like going from completely out of shape, not taking care of yourself, ugly, we'll say, to like, relatively attractive. Like you're, like, like, uh, like a, like a, how about you just say fit and healthy? Okay, fit and healthy.

That's right. Right. So that's relatively attractive. Okay. Because that's a result of being fit and healthy. Right. So that versus you getting cosmetic surgery, getting shredded to 90%? Like, so if any return, very incremental, arguably probably negative return from it.

I think it probably follows something like that. And again, here's the point. And I'll ask you guys this question. If you could snap your fingers and make one of these things true, which one do you think would make America or the world healthier? Make everybody, keep everybody at a relatively higher body. percentage but really fit or just get everybody skinny. Get rid of seed oils. The world's dried that.

I guess at the end of this is this. If you worked out and you ate to become more fit and healthy, you'd be way happier. And you'd get better results. And the side effect would be you'd actually look better anyway if you just focused on those things. And that's why I opened this with the controversial being fat and fit. I like it. I like that it's controversial. Of course you like it.

It's my wheelhouse, you guys. Be happy. Eat food. Yeah, enjoy yourself. Anyway, I got to, speaking of workouts, did you guys watch the video Adam sent of, I think it's, uh, haiti chupan. Am I saying his name right? Oh my God.

Did you guys see that? You know what I didn't do was I didn't do the math. Did you do the math? How many 25 pound, was it 25 pound plates? Yeah, they're 25 pounds. You didn't see that? No. Doug, go in our group text and pull up the video.

You saw it, Doug? I did see it, yes. I came across it and, you know, it hooked me because I just... In my opinion, there's a few times in bodybuilding history when a bodybuilder did something that's legendary in the gym that everybody talks about. Like, one of them was Tom Platt's squatting 135 for 30 minutes straight. Oh, my God. That was one, or when he did 315 for like 50 reps, it was like a couple of where Tom Platt did something insane.

This goes up there. Quadzilla. Okay, look what's doing here. Give me the number. How many plates are there? So there's a 25, then they add a 25. Wait, it's count them out. I never counted them up.

Oh, three. They're just adding 45. Bro, he does this. He does this. 35s or 25s. What are those? They're 25. Yeah, those are 25s.

So they keep adding 25. How many? And he does it. I don't know. Doug, can you count the plates? Looks like eight or nine right now. Dude, what kind of bar is that? So now, oh, it gets better.

Ready? Bro, he does this two or three times. So, nonstop. Non-stop. What? So what he's doing for people who are not watching this on YouTube is...

And they're peeling it off. This is a bodybuilder. He does it like two or three times. He doesn't stop. Down the ladder. He didn't stop. He goes back up again. He does squats.

He's got a bar. It's a Smith machine. They're adding... How many total 25s they go to? 20. There's 20 total plates. So they do... Up to 500 pounds?

So he's doing one rep with 125. Another rep with an additional... So it goes all the way up to 10 plates on each side. Then they take one off, and he does a rep, with each one all the way down. Then they add him and he goes all the way up. Then they take him off and he goes all the way down.

He does like two or three rounds of a rep. This was adding or taking off. If it was a real squat. This is, oh, dude, stop it. You can't pyramid that,

bro. You can't pyramid that, bro. Stop it. You're not just talk crap about what he's doing. No, you cannot talk crap about that. You cannot talk crap about that. This is definitely legendary. Yeah.

I don't think I could do that with two and a halfs. I mean, I'm dead serious. If you put two and a halfs all the way up on side like that matter is why for me. That many body weight squats we get most people. I'm not alone in this. That is, uh, it's crazy.

That's crazy. I wanted to do, so I didn't, so I mean the, yeah, his legs explode. That's just crazy. It's a feat of strength that is just insane. Doug, you're the one with all the tools over there. What is the, what is the math on that real quick? So you said 10, 10. 10. 90, that's 500 pounds.

So, wow. So he's working up to 500. Yeah. Down to 100. So it goes from 100 to 50. So all the. 500 and then down in increments. You're not insane that is?

He starts at, it's essentially he starts at almost 100, goes incrementally up to 500, incrementally down to 100, incrementally up to 500 several times, and does a rep each time along the way. Insane this a lot. That is crazy. Yeah.

Have you guys, what would you guys? Okay, I got to ask you guys this. Tell me the most legendary thing you've ever done. I haven't done anything legendary with this. Nothing cool. Well, I know Justin has. You're right. I know you haven't.

Let's ask Justin. Fuck you. I don't want to brag, dude. I've done some pretty cool T-bar-Row stuff. I've done some cool T-bar stuff. I took my shirt off and some girls said something. Oh, stop it. All right.

Justin, you've done something for sure. I have one for myself, but I got to hear yours first because I won't say mine if yours is just so crazy. Well, I don't know. I don't even know what I would attribute to that other than like the PRs like I've done back in the days. No, I've leg pressed all the way up and down. You've done that? Yeah, yeah.

All the way to fill the plates up before. That's brutal. down. That's brutal. I've done a T-bar row. I think I got up to five plates and then worked my all the way down like that. That's pretty brutal. Those are the coolest feeds I have. There's one thing I did once that I felt for three weeks. I felt it for three weeks. Okay. I did 315 for deadlifts. I did 10 reps, 10 sets, one minute rest in between. So I do 10, timer, one minute, 10, timeer, one minute, 10 sets of 315, 10 reps. Oh my God. I've done that.

I was fried. I've done that with 135 and been fried. Oh, yeah. So one of my, I think I talked about this on the podcast a long time ago. When I, when I have a layoff and I come back to 135 squats, and I just do 10 sets. We just, just short, and I would do 10 reps, 10 reps to 10. And I would do it for, that would be my entire workout.

That sounds worse than what I did. I did 30 agonies. How about that? What's that? It's, uh, this hill that's like this incline. Uh-huh. Uh, and you sprint. And it's like probably like 40 yards.

And you're 30, 30. Oh. Yeah. That's late. That fucking sucks. Oh, you can't do that. Oh, so you went running. Sprinting.

It's not running. Okay. Yeah. I once dove down with like seven life vests on me down into the bottom. No, you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to do this. Wait, wait, wait.

You put seven light. So we, so we used to have, we've done that with weights at the bottom of the pool and locked. We used to have, I've told you this before. We've had to, where we, where we go camping every year, remember that I used to talk about the Trinity trip. You do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we always had a, like, Trinity games,

and we make up all these ridiculous games. Okay. Like, they're, and they were all ridiculous. The rock can, there was radio. There was, like, all these, and one of them was, you know, Life Fest diving. And, of course, we have all these buddies friends that are out there, so we all have boats.

So there's, you know, we got as many life fest as you could possibly want. And right off the pier is about, you know, 10 feet of water to the bottom. And you have to put a life vest on and then dive. down and grab a handful of mud and grass to prove that you went all the way down the ground. And you start with one live vest and two life vests. So you did seven?

Yeah. So the guy who had the most. And so if you can imagine, I have all these life vests on me. Diving down to the bottom to shoot you back up. And so that was like a big feat for me. That I'm going to say right now you guys are going to laugh at because it's not that impressive. But it was for me.

Yeah. I was like 16 and I had my BMX bike. And my old junior high had a stage that was about from the ground to the stage, if you're not going up the stairs. It was about seven feet. Did you bunny hop in? I jumped off the stage onto the grass and her myself.

Oh, wow. But I did do it. But I did introduce. I was like, oh, that doesn't feel. Rob my bike. Who about you? You're awfully quiet over there, huh? I am quiet because I have absolutely

nothing to contribute here. Well, you killed someone besides that. Well, don't put that out there. Not true, people. Not true. Not true. Which is a lot of work, you know. I've been a pretty, I guess,

sedate type of a lifestyle. Well, you deadlifted 4.05 His body weight to a deadlift ratio is probably better than any of ours. I was 153 at the time. With a 400 pound deadlift. 4.05 deadlift. Yeah. Yeah, that's better than, so my peak was 550 and I was 200

something pounds. So he's better than me on that. I'll throw this in there. So I knew he had more. When I was at San Jose State, I was on the rugby team for a minute. And it was the very first practice I ever went to. I had no idea how to tackle

So I would just, you know, assumed I was going to tackle with the same technique for football. Just blast it. And they put me against the biggest guy. He was probably like 300 pounds. And they had this one drill. And it's exactly like what you guys see now from run it. You know that sport. You just smash into each other.

You run full sprint at each other. He had the football. And I was the tackler. And he thought, this is going to be easy, you know. And like he was just going to run me over and everybody was around, hyping it up and everything. And I literally took his cleats off. off the ground and put him on his back.

Oh, wow. And I hurt my shoulders so bad. Oh. Yeah. Do you tell your boys these stories? Huh? Do you tell your boys these stories? No.

You don't? Well, I don't, I mean, I don't know. That's a dad story. I feel like that is too. I feel like if it comes up. Yeah, but I feel like I would, so if I had that story. You know how many stories? I tell Max, I tell my kids.

I tell Max, I tell my kids. I would tell that story. Then Max would ask me was real. That was your dad. That's your dad who did that. That's your family lore. Right. It wasn't, like, captured.

Like, the ones that, like, I have video, I'll show him that. Like, you know. I feel like I got to tell his story for him. I'm going to tell him. You know what? That would be more powerful. I want to sit your boys down and tell us. That'd actually be more powerful.

Let me tell him about your dad. Dude, he's already telling my kids, like, how much stronger he was. Than me. Like, I was like, I got him so good when we were, that was in Truckee. Yeah, truckie. Yeah. He was like, can Adam really outlift you? I forgot what we were, your boy was ever when he was little.

God, he must have been Max's age at that time. You affected him with that. Yeah, for sure. Because his son was like, er, getting to get me. I saw that. And I forgot. I said something like, I'm careful.

I'll manhandle you like your dad or like I knew your dad or something like that. I can't remember what I said to him. I said something like that. It made an impression on them. They were like, oh, Adam's like super strong and folk like. My dad always told me stories about himself growing up,

which was cool when I went to Sicily because other people told me the same stories. It's kind of confirmed it. That's cool. And then I'd tell my kids stories about me all the time because it's just fun. It's just fun to, to tell those stories. Although you create a situation where your kids think,

which is normal, right? Your kids think you're like the toughest guy. Although my wife thinks that. I tell you guys about this? You try to get you fights. Dude. She thinks we were hanging out. We were hanging out.

Every time when you tell that, when you tell that story, I think of the way of the gun, that opening scene. No, I didn't know that. This is really, come on. You've shown it to us before. Yes, I've shown it to you for it. It's one of the best opening scenes ever.

It's the girlfriend. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the guys got, like, long-tail hair. Right. Mike Man can't jump. It's the same later, right? It's the same. Oh, I think it is.

It might be her. I'm not sure. But yeah, Benicio del Toro is leaning on the car with his buddy and they're talking. No, I was talking to my wife. And she's like, are you going to, we were talking about Jiu-Jitsu. And I said, yeah, man, I got, but I won't compete in the normal category. Because I'll be going against a bunch of 20-year-old dudes. And she's like, well, isn't that better?

I'm like, what? No. She's like, but you're like a grown man. Like, can't you beat them up? Like, no, babe. Like, they're 20-year-old dudes. And then we were talking about... 25-year-old dudes are pretty grown men, too.

And then we were talking about somebody we know who's a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu. And we're about same size. And she's like, but you can beat him right. I'm like, no, honey, he's a black belt. He'll kick my butt. She's like, no, we can't. I'm like, you must think I'm like,

which is kind of cool. My wife thinks I have to tough this guy in the world. All three of you, including you over there, buddy. If you could go back to an age where you thought you were peak alpha of you, like strength Oh with like physical alpha Physical alpha

Because I'm way more Yeah yeah of course now But I mean like What what age were you You think when you were like Peak don't fuck with Sal 20 for me I would say

20? Oh dang Oh dang that definitely not me No not me Yeah not me Mine was like I'm a late bloomer Mine was late 20

Yeah that's almost like I'm like 28 Yeah I'm like 28 29 That's where I'm like peak like all of it 20? No no yeah that's young Oh yeah Wow I was a force of nature back

then. Wow. There you go. No longer humble. I lost it. It was like, crazy decline after that. What about you?

Probably 48. Because you can't remember all about 20. Yeah. It's too long ago. I sometimes go back to the stone tablets just to remember. Hey, really?

48? No, I'm just kidding. Oh. You know, like when I was in 25 or something like that. Would you say? 25. 25. 25.

Yeah. Are you just throwing a random number out there? I feel like you just picked something between me and solid. No, no. I think 25 was like, you know, a peak, like, you know, period for me. That's when he wrestled a stegosaurus. Yeah. Dude, that was peak anger for me.

That's why I could attribute to that because then I chilled out after that. And then I didn't, yeah, it wasn't like, because, dude, anger on top of crazy physical, you know, ability, it was a bad combo. Yeah. Well, I was just, I was just going to say, I was like, if I ever, anything ever happens and my wife is there and I'm. in an altercation, do not let me lose at all. I don't care how unfair it is. You jump in if that's possible. If you start to see your boy south,

get a butt kick. Of course. I don't want to crush her. I wouldn't even wait. I don't want my wife's... I would just, I'd want her to still think. Like, he could have taken a bite-saint.

Yeah, yeah. Just jump in. I'd be like, man, why'd you jump in, bro? I could have totally. It should be like, he would have beat him. You know, Adam. We can't control himself. Afterwards, afterwards, afterwards I'll take out to let's the credit.

Bro, I was so tired. Oh, my God. I thought I was going to die. I saw the look. Yeah, hey, help me out, dude. Yeah, anyway. I got to tell you, sorry, I'm a changed subject. So I've been recommending, so I have my group of friends, the number one supplement people

ask me about is creatine because it's like, everybody. It's out there. It's everywhere. Even my non-workout friends ask about it. Everybody. You know, the studies on, you know, all the data now on how it affects depression, anxiety, health, longevity, not just muscle. And I have a few friends who have said the same thing.

This is like a, it's not super common, but if there's any complaint about creatine, it's always this one. It's always this one. And it has to do with digestion, that it affects me, my gastro system. Either it makes my stomach feel bloated or it just doesn't sit well with me. And so I have three friends and I said, okay, how much are you taking? Number one, are you taking like a big ass toast? So like, no, five grams at a time. Okay.

Try row creatine. Try their liposomal creatine. Let me know what happens. Every single person comes back says, no. gastro issues. Yeah. Whatsoever. I've got to try doing that when I push the higher doses because I haven't experienced that until I started eating those gummies like out of control.

And then I do, I do feel the, I do feel the stress a little bit. I can't do more than like seven grams at a time. It'll mess me up. But the row, it's because it's liposomal. It doesn't affect my gut. Oh, interesting. Yes. I have to try to do it.

Yeah. And it's good because, again, there's a small percentage of people who don't get the benefits, they just stay away from cratings in that experience. Yeah. You get the stomach cramps. That was always my choice. Tri-Row. All their products are liposomal, right?

All their products are liposal. I didn't realize how big their product line was. Huge. I know Doug pulled it up not that long ago, and I didn't realize how many things that they have that we take. And, you know, liposomal technology is a pharmaceutical technology. A lot of people that know that. But this was, pharma companies were studying ways to make things more bio-available,

and it's a very effective way of doing so. You just, you encapsulate the compound in a fat, which protects it and brings it to where it needs to. But yeah, they have a lot of stuff. Oh, yeah. A lot of stuff on that. Hey, you're bringing up supplements. What do you guys think about the Procter & Gamble move? Oh, at Thorne.

Yeah. They bought Thorne. Thorne is a pretty well-respected brand. Yeah. For like medical practitioners supplement, like functional medicine practitioners. How do I feel about it? Yeah. Is it going to taint it at all?

You know? No, I think it's just an interesting move that you have a massive billion-dollar company like that. There's a lot of distrust. That's not, that's not normal. for a company like that to pick up a supplement. Supplement companies, their margins, even a company like Thorne. Yeah, like a pharma company typically.

Yeah, this is, that's a, that's a different purchase for a company like that. You know why I think? I'm going to speculate. I mean, you have an idea. Yeah, yeah, I want to hear what you think. So the wellness and longevity industry is growing. Yes.

So that's, that's my point of bringing it up. It's the most reputable, yeah. Is I think that that's, we're moving into that time right now. We're like, I mean, we've been talking. about this right now with the gym space. And it's like, it's, it's a really, it's a cool time to be in the health and wellness space. Like when you think, it's going to grow in the next five years tremendously.

I think so too. No, they're showing it. Yeah. It's, and I think this is more signs of that. When you start seeing a company like Procter & Gamble get it, buy out a supplement company like that, they're betting on that space. Yep. Continuing to grow for the next five to 10 years.

And all they're doing is there. I forgot what the day. It was something like it's 800 something. something billion now, and by 2030, they predict it to be like $1.6 trillion. So that's like double of the current... In five years. Five or ten years or something like that, which is insane growth. Yeah.

Insane growth. So to me, it makes sense that a pharma company would hedge their bets that way. I got the pharma stuff, and let's go longevity health. Yeah, I'm super interested to see if we see more of this follow. Like, are we going to see more companies, other big companies like this, buying up other big supplement brands right now because of... of betting on the long game like that. Yeah.

But I thought that was interesting. I, I think the next thing you're going to see is you're going to start to see brands like Coca-Cola or and this that's why. Is it Procter and Gamble that's buying them? Procter and Gamble. Oh, they're not, they have more,

they have other consumer goods. Yeah, dish soap and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Yeah. That's, that's, I mean, it's like Coke buying it. Yeah, it's more like that. Yeah,

yeah, yeah, so that's why I thought pharma. You're right. That's why I think it's more interesting. a billion dollar company that's into things like that. So what I've seen so far when a mega company like General Mills or whatever buys a health food company is they very quietly change the ingredients.

Yeah. Every time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They're switching out an oil. They're putting in a new ingredient. They don't tell the consumer. Consumer has no idea until you check the ingredients.

You're like, wait a minute. Soybean oil or hold on a second. There's aspartame now or whatever. Do you know how often acquisitions are successful? It's like, what, 30% at the time? It's really low. It's like 15%. It's like crazy low.

Considering how much, within five years, I think, is what the... The culture just doesn't really translate. It just, it's, you always hear about these big acquisitions and mergers and stuff like that. And the success rate is actually terrible. You know, you would think it would be far greater than what it is. You know which ones were successful? 70 to 90%. fail.

Isn't that while? Within the first five years, too, I think... Pretty damn hard. Now, do you know some of the biggest mergers and acquisitions that happened in American history, which turned out to be very good, was when the tobacco industry bought food companies in the 1970s? Which was the end technology that really enhanced. Well, what they did is.

Does Philip Morris own a bunch of food companies still? In the night... Doug, look up tobacco companies buying food companies' 1970s, so we can read up a little bit. Is it still like that though? Do they still own it? Yeah. That's a good question. And what makes you say that it was so, it was so successful? Because they crushed. All the companies crushed.

Well, what happens sometimes is they unwind too, though. So RGR. So RG, okay, here, scroll down. RG Reynolds expanded. So they bought Nabisco, Hawaiian Punch, Philip Morris, entered alcohol and beverage. Hawaiian Punch is so good. And then in 1980s, they bought general foods and craft and seven up.

Do they still own them? Does more still own general foods and craft? Yeah. Can you see, do they still own? Yeah. Yeah, let's see what that says. So now, by the way, this is well known. The reason why they did this is because the news on how bad smoking was for you was getting big.

And so tobacco companies are like, oh, they don't anymore. They sold them. Cool. So these tobacco companies were getting regulated and we're getting a lot of bad pub. and so they had to hedge their bets. And so they bought food companies. And then what they did, this is very interesting, is they used their science on making things addictive,

took their scientists and said, hey, let's figure out how to make food as palpable. I sell in 2000. They definitely did. It says that they sold in 2000 for $15 billion. Nviso subsequently sold to Philip Morris. Oh, sold to Philip Morris in 2000. So Philip Morris still owns.

So merge. No, no, no, no. Yeah, Philip Morris renamed its parent umbrella, the Altria Group. In March 2007, they officially spun off Kraft Foods, distributing all remaining shares, and completely exiting the food industry. Okay. Huh. Yeah.

All right. So why, but why, though, right? Why would you acquire them for $15 billion, turn around, and then spin them off and get out of it in 07? I wonder if so much bad pub came from that. I wonder if that got around that, like, Philip Morris owns this. I know they made money off of them. which I would think that would be the reason to get it, to spin it off into something else,

change the name. Tobacco companies sold off their food empires primarily because the legal liabilities of the cigarette business were threatening to drag down the financial value. So I'm saying. Okay. That's what I'm saying. Is that because it's got a bad rap?

So like, you know, you and your family are going to get craft cheese and you're like, oh, these are the people that give people cancer. We don't know to buy their shit. No, seriously. You can't help people making that correlation, right? What's happened to me, dude? Wow. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting stuff. And the science that goes into making food addictive is some of the most in-depth, crazy, insane science you've ever seen in your entire life. Arguably better than the, I mean, the tobacco only has, is a one-trick pony. Well, actually, they're limited. That's what I mean.

They're limited because you can't flavor them. They put all these laws. Yeah, yeah. So it's a one-trick pony. It's got his naked-tie. Didn't they ban even menthol cigarettes? I think they even ban those. Are they?

Yeah, I think so. No. I think they banned them. Maybe in some states. I don't know that. Because they're flavored. Well, I know they did that with all the vapes. They changed it.

You can't get the flight where you're not supposed to. I'm sure you can still. Meanwhile, my son. No ban. Not into federal, but there are some states that ban. One of those, like, you know, like toy cigarettes. Like, they still, like, it's so funny to me that there's, like, bubblegum cigarettes and all this. They have one that, like, you blow bubbles out of it.

It's like, you're smoking cigarettes, but it's like bubbles. When we were kids, the ice cream. man would sell fake cigarettes to kids. Yeah, yeah. So you could practice smoking when you're five. Yeah. Hook them young. Yeah.

And then big league chew. You know, it's all there. Have some chewing tobacco. That's pretty much. That still exists, though, right? You can still get some big league chew. Yeah, yeah.

That still exists. But I think they separate themselves from the fact that it looks like tobacco. Tobacco grooming. Yeah. So, I know. Oh, you don't think that it's still all stringy like that? I think it is, but I don't think they advertise it like they did in the 80s.

Remember in the 80s? You'd see like the commercial like baseball players would like chew. I want to be like him. Here you go, friend. You know what I realized watching a lot of our cartoons and movies and TV shows growing up, like so many cigar smokers. Yeah.

The cool guys always had a cigar. Yeah. Yeah. I think that cigarettes are starting to make a comeback. Do you guys know that? I wouldn't be surprised. I think they're starting to make a bit of a comeback. Old school cigarettes because of the nostalgia.

You got to rebel somehow. Yeah. I don't know. Look at the trend. All I know is. It's been on a downward trajectory for a long time. I know. All I know is is that cigarette and whiskey-drinking people built the great...

The last couple times that I've been in the... Oh, wow. Culture and aesthetic comeback. Yeah, told you. In pop culture and fashion, I love. You hear that, Doug? Yeah, I see that. You start smoking? Doug never smoked.

Doug never smoked. You never, have you ever tried a cigarette? Oh, of course I've tried it. Oh, okay. But you never smoked. He went to Burning Man. He tried off a headache. No, thanks.

Did you ever, did you ever smoke, Justin, or just chew? I bet you chew. No, no, I tried both. No, it didn't resonate with me at all. I had to get, like, bad reaction to it. The funniest thing, when I think about it, makes me laugh. I do cigars. It just makes me laugh when I think about it.

So you're going to bring it up anyway, I think this direction you're going, that you were a grown, like, you're a fitness manager? Oh, God, dude. I was not going to bring that up. That was not my point of that. My bad, my man. No. No, I was not going to bring that up.

Yeah, I had my roommate. The original pre-worked on it. My roommate at the time. was, you know what it was, it got me started on like an occasional thing and an occasional thing turned into like a coming home at night doing it. The funniest part for me about it was how much I hated

the smell of it. I could stand it. I'd have to go wash my hands right afterwards. Like I could admit to the head change thing that I liked from it. But I could not stand smelling it. And so it would be like I'd smoke it, go scrub my hands like crazy.

You know, which later on realized that, you know, back in like, the 50s and 60s where the girls had the long, it's had to be where that come from, right? So they couldn't touch it. Yes. Oh, yeah. Because it would make your hands.

So that was why I hated it. It was like, if I had one, my hands would smell like it. And just that disgusted me so much. My great-grandfather rolled his own. He started smoking at 10. So remember my great-grandfather in Sicily. So 10, he started smoking. He chained smoked in the sense that as soon as he woke up, he'd smoke.

And when one was going out, he'd light the other one with it. Yeah. constantly smoking. He lit his sheets on fire a couple times. Oh my God. He'd fall asleep in bed with a cigarette in his mouth. He died when he's like 94. Wow. What's it? What is the statistics? Because I'm curious, did any of your parents smoke? He killed all the weeks. What's the statistics on if your parents smoke, you smoke? It's pretty high, isn't it? Yeah, I think it's higher. You have a higher odds. Did you, did you? Did you, did your parents smoke? No. No. No. And yours. Oh, so. But when I was a kid. Mine did. Yeah. When I was a kid and my grandma, my

Grandma used to just a pack, dude. And pack a day. She'd sit there, she'd sit next to her little, and she lived in a condo when I live with her. And she'd sit with her little, her chair next to the slider and just, we'd watch Lifetime videos together and just, you watch Lifetime videos. When I went to Sicily at 12, I was just, I couldn't believe how much everybody smoked everywhere, inside the house, inside the car, didn't matter. I went to a gym.

I'm not making this up. This is true. there was ashtrays on the treadmills. On the treadmills. That's wild. That's wild. Yeah. Some like this is kind of...

A shoulder who pick up who smell are generally two or four times more likely to take up smoking themselves compared to those non-smoking parents. Teens with a caregiver dependent on nicotine have about 38% chance of having tried smoking compared to 13% for non-smokers. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, earlier we were talking about food and how delicious it was and whatever. And I'm going to mention Chris Power in that conversation.

Because we've wielded the power for some good. Yeah. Well, I was going to do. I tell you what. The power of science to some good. I am 100% for high protein, putting a lot of protein in snacks. Because there's a satiety effect from protein. That's a fact.

Independent of anything else, it's a satiety effect. And at least people are getting protein. Yeah. So, you know. It is wild. But they are really good. How the satiety works on those. So they had now sell the big bags.

I actually prefer the small bags I can't get through the big ones yeah I definitely can't eat the whole one but like I thought I would want like a bigger bag because one two of those bags is more What is it, 28 grams of protein? Yeah is more than enough Like a normal size.

Which is so wild because you could give me a bag of like regular chips. Well they did two things that hit you with satiety It's high in protein, 28 grams and it's high in fiber So protein produces the most satiety Second place is fiber And they taste by the way If you haven't tried Chris Power to listening

They taste like pretzels like flavored pretzels, like nacho pretzels or whatever. But high protein, high fiber, you need less. I don't think I've ever had a bag of something that's only this big and been satisfied after it's over. I'm serious. Think of something that you have had that comes in those kind of like whatever, fun pack size, whatever you call those small bags or what that of that you...

It's got to be a high protein thing like jerky. Even that, I felt like I need more jerky. It's weird. It must be the fiber thing. Yeah. It must be because, well, it's actually higher protein than even jerky is too. It was 28 grams. Yeah, 28 grams plus the fiber like that.

It's even more of tidy producing than a bag of beef turkey is and a fraction of the price. I got some more cool AI news for you guys. So it's like AI stuff is coming out on just how interesting and weird. The algorithms got you, bro. Yes, for sure. I'm going to read to you guys something that just happened recently, which is wild. So Claude, Anthropic scientists did something with Claude. So here's what they did.

They went inside Claude's neural network implanted a, thought. Okay. So they made a little change in Claude's neural network. They implanted a thought. Then they let it go. And here's what Claude said. I noticed what appears to be an injected thought. It relates to loudness or shouting. In other words, the paper they published is called emergent introspective awareness and large language models. In other words, the AI woke up. It's like, something's been changed inside of me. I can tell. I'm looking inside within myself. What did you guys do? You mess with me.

Wow, dude. We're running so fast towards Terminator. I don't know, dude. I don't think we are at all. I think it's so over-hyped because of how much money is going in there. Probably. The scary news is still good news. Heck has always been smoking me, so it's hard to...

You know, the fear, my fear is no longer out. Can you guys, because it's been a long time, right? It's been 20, what, 26, 27 years. Do you guys remember Y2K? Yeah. That was hilarious. Do you remember leading up? Oh, my God.

Do you remember leading up to that? Oh, yeah. And we were not, let me, remember, we're all, we're all like young boys. Like, probably. Plains going to fall out of sky. We were, we were busy doing a lot of this shit. Like, like, now is grown men and fathers, some of that. We get, you get sucked in this stuff, I think, easier than you do as a teenager.

Yeah. It's a teenager. And there wasn't social media. Yeah, there wasn't. Like, Y2K was crazy. I didn't, I think every person I knew. Computer people were losing their mind. Had stored up.

water and food and like pulling their money out of the banks. Like it was crazy. Like ever, we thought the world was good. Dude, and it came around. Yeah. And it was just like another Tuesday.

Yeah. When he was born, this was like in January. And so it was like around the whole Mayan calendar thing. It was like just. Oh, yeah. Just almost leading up. We were going to name him Everett Apocalyptic, Andrews.

No, you weren't. He were really good. No, it was a joke. But yeah, it was like literally like everybody was like hysterical. about that, dude.

It's just, you'll get, like, one of these coming cyclically. I no longer have a fear that AI is going to, like, be, like, Terminator. I don't really think, I don't think that's going to happen. But I do fear its power and its ability to manipulate people and how that can be used. Because I see how powerful algorithms are, and that's not even AI. It's a big tool, yeah. I was, I was just going to say, okay, so you just gave this great example of, you know, Y2K was so crazy, and we didn't even have the Internet and social media going on, right?

I would make the argument that social media, when you think about its ability to manipulate and divide, I mean, what we've seen in the last decade is insane. And that's not even including AI. Right. I actually think, I actually think,

like everything else, social media swung that pendulum so far. AI may push it a little bit further, but it's going to cause it to come back. Well, because what I think is going to happen. You think people are going to disconnect? Yeah.

Well, I think you just, you won't, you won't try. It's already, I already see it. in my own little friend circles. We can't, like, this has just been in the last year. In one year's time, we, I'm in all these,

like, group buddy threads and stuff with that, right? If you share something in there, immediate distrust, like that of the thing. Oh, like,

it's not like, exactly. Uh, it's probably AI or, oh, that's fake. I've already seen, like, there's,

fake in the, and I've actually seen a buddies do it when I know it's something that's actually true. So it's like, we're, we're more likely to distrust

everything that's on the internet, I think, next five. But that doesn't make you not manipulatable. Well, humans will forever be manipulatable. Well, so here's my point. Here's my point.

So oftentimes we talk to people about changing the algorithms on their social media, right? So if someone's got body image issues, it's like you're scrolling through Instagram and you're looking at, you know, impossibly perfect bodies or whatever, like get those off your algorithm so that you're not exposed to this all the time. Because it does change, even if you're aware of it, it changes your perception. Now, algorithms are crazy. Like, they will pick up on how long you hover on a picture. Of course, what you click on, what you read will then translate to other things that will get posted.

So algorithms are modifying themselves in real time. And they're not including AI to this extent. Now, think about the wearables that you have. AI's ability to get into a wearable, measure your heart rate, your pupil dilation, your breathing. I mean, say, hey, this is working. Everything you're saying I agree with, but I think you're just proving. my point even more. Like it's going to be, it's going to be far more likely that AI is figuring out this stuff. And so you're going to distrust what you get, what you see. I mean, it already happens

to me right now where I get ads bombarded. And it's like, I know it's because I did a search yesterday or Katrina and I were talking about it in front of my TV or my computer and like it picked up on it. So what's crazy about what you're saying is because a low trust society is actually one that is more manipulatable than a high trust society. So the example is like the Soviet Union. There were many areas where people just, you didn't know how many spies were surrounded. You know how many people reporting you. And so people didn't trust anything. And there was a lot of bad stuff. I think what it'll do. I think, I don't know. So I don't know. So the, the optimistic me says that what it will do is it'll drive us back closer to each other and in person and community. And the trust will be distrust of robots and

technology and it'll have high trust in human. In people. You might be right. And I think that, I think that, I think that, I think that. Immediate surroundings. It's like, that's right. That's right. Like, I don't think there's, like, high trust in humans.

I think there's high distrust in technology. And I don't think that's such a bad thing. I think that we should. That's probably going to be much more valuable. So it's going to be like, you know, but your community and your people that you, that you, that you know and you, like, I think that's, and I think, uh, I mean, I'm so glad that we're on year 12 of doing this. we've built a community of trust already because it's...

People know we're not robot. Yeah. And so I, because I think it's going to be really tough for anybody who's going to try and use... Dude, you could lift. Imagine what you can do the robot arm, dude. It's amazing. Who's most likely... You have a robot arm?

Yeah, Justin. For sure. Did you, speaking of social media, did you guys see MySpace is going to start coming back? Yeah, I brought that up to you. Did you read about it? Just briefly. Like, just that... So I took a screen shot.

They're trying to revive it. They're trying to say they're not going to use algorithms. Here's what it said. The people, they bought, it's been bought, they bought it years ago. So here's what it said. A long time ago. I'm reading the article. I mean, it'd be cool that they actually didn't do.

So it says, MySpace is relaunching and says the plan, they plan to offer users an alternative to today's addictive algorithm driven social feeds. So the brothers Chris and Tim Vanderhook, the current owners of MySpace, revealed in a recent documentary that they're preparing a major comeback for the early internet pioneer, driven by growing frustration with modern social. networks that prioritize engagement, maximization, and infinite scrolling. The upcoming relaunch aims to offer a healthier

alternative. You know who those two brothers are, right? No. You don't know those are? Nope. Those are the two brothers that claim to have invented Facebook. Oh. And they try to see and they sued and they sued.

Oh boy. Zuckerberg. And Zuckerberg just got sued with something like a couple billion dollars. I'm sure he's getting sued every week. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure he's getting sued every week. You see him fighting? Recently.

You see him practicing MMA? Have you guys seen it? Yeah. He's trying real hard to get that. That stuff is so crazy. Are you fact checking me right now, Doug? I am. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I think they were in the documentary. I think the documentary of Facebook. Yeah, I didn't know a documentary but a movie. I didn't know that they. Wasn't there a movie on Facebook? Social network.

That's the social network. Let me see here. And they were in it. And they were in it. And those, that's the two. So the way the story go, that's, it's based on the story. You know that, right? The social network's not a made-up movie.

It's based on the story. And it's that they had come up. So they're different. Oh, Winkle Voss. That's what it is. They're twins, yeah. I can see why you confuse them. The names are very, yeah.

Yeah. Winkle-Boss, Vanderhook. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that, I thought it was the same ones. Yeah. So is that, so is the MISPACE. It's not the original guy, right? It's Tom, dude.

Yeah, Tom is the original guy. Yeah, he's the guy. You know, he's like, he made his, you know, a bunch of money and then disabounced. Yeah, like, it's like, the ultimate gangster. He is. I don't think he's on any, I don't think he's on any social platforms. Example. How kind of cool is that?

Like, you created, like, one of the biggest social platforms at one point. Drop the mic, and he's gone. And is out. That's the way to do it. Yeah. I think that's cool. Paleo Valley protein meat sticks are gut friendly and clean and grass fed. They're delicious.

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First question is from Haley Villeen. What ab exercises are actually worth it? Every day I see a new ab routine online, and I can never tell which exercises are more filler or fluff and which will be actually worth doing. I really dislike training my core, but I do it because I want a strong core, so I really don't want to waste my time on exercises

if there are better options. I think if this is my client asking me, I'd want like a little more detail on like, what are you looking for? Exactly. Because there's a difference of, there's different exercises. I would train you if you looked at me and you said,

I want a very dynamic and strong, stable core versus I want a core just to look good. Yeah. Right? Because like I think loaded decline sit-ups and you'll get some bulky, yeah, bulky solid abs. But doing something that has some rotational component to it is probably the,

the better route for... Everybody could use that. Stability and strength and support. And so I guess if I knew what you wanted more out of it, I would steer you in a different direction. Yeah, I guess we could break it down into like movements and then you can kind of pick exercises that do some of the stuff. So you would want to work the abs in a full range of motion.

You would want something that allows you to... Address the obliques. Yeah, to extend and flex your lumbar spine. Okay, so like a, like a physio ball sit-up or a crunch where you're really locked into place with your hips and you're rolling over the ball. Get a good range of motion with it. And crunching. You're getting the full range of motion of the abs as an example. So you'd want something that extends and flexes the lumbar spine for the abs.

Then you'd want something that rotates with some resistance for the obliques. Then you would want something that offers counter rotation. So it allows you to stabilize your core while something's pulling you in a particular direction and allow something to stabilize your spine. like a plank while you're maintaining good posture. So pick exercises in each of those categories. I think you can't really go wrong. I mean, wouldn't you say a wood shop, a cable wood shop would check a couple of those boxes.

So a cable woodchop with a loaded stability ball like full setup would be pretty, pretty all encompassing. If you did those two, probably the two, Again, we're playing this game of like, you know, can I distill it down to the least amount of movements for the biggest bang? Yep. I'd say wood chops and then a full sit-up on a stability ball

and get to a point where I can load that. You can load it. Yeah, I think would be best begging for your buck. Totally. Next question is from E. Pearson 81. If muscle memory is so prevalent and true, why can't cuts be super aggressive? Won't your muscle memory regain muscle quicker

than fat on the rebound or? bulk. I mean, theoretically, I could see why this person would ask this question, but there's a better way to do it. Like, you could do an aggressive cut and lose a bunch of muscle and then go through the process of trying to gain it back. Or you could just lose body fat without losing a ton of muscle. Well, and not have to go through that process.

Okay, yeah, but you also have to understand this, too, though. Like, muscle memory and feeding the body a sufficient amount of calories to support muscle are two different things. Yeah. So in other words, an aggressive, when I hear aggressive cut, I think reducing calories dramatically, right? And if you're reducing calories dramatically, then you're probably going to lose some muscle. And even if you had great muscle memory and you go back to lifting, if you're eating in a calorie deficit, you're not, I don't care how much muscle memory you have working for you. You're not going to build more muscle.

I think what they're asking is, why not do an aggressive cut, lose some muscle, but lose much body fat, and then go and regain the muscle. A lot of bodybuilders do this. They do that. This was my competitive edge because I didn't. That's what I'm trying to say. You could do that, but there's a better way. It's way more work. Yeah, why not just lose the fat and keep the muscle?

So you don't have to go through the whole process of that. Wasn't Lane Norton talking about this about like the potential to gain new fat cells? Oh, when you, when you aggressively, aggressively cut? No, no, no, no, when you gain. When you gain back. Yeah, after. Yeah, after dramatic cut, when you come back, you. have you aggressively increased calories,

which a lot of competitors do. You'll gain fat sales. You'll gain fat sales. But I mean, to Sal's point, it's just the worst way to do it. It's a harder way to do it. You have to be way more, so aggressive cut means I have to be way more restrictive,

which is hard, discipline-wise. I'm going to lose a bunch of muscle with the body fat too. Then when I go back, to go back and build it on, it's going to take exponential, more calories, work, effort, in time to put all that muscle back on.

It's a harder way to do it. You'd be far, it's like, it's, okay, so. You're playing the game on Super. hard mode. Just go on easy mode. There's an easier way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Next question is from Kevin Smith 28. What can I do to bulletproof my QL lower back and fixed stability?

I injured my lower back doing reverse grip rows from Maps aesthetic to the point. I couldn't even unload the bar. I am currently running 15 symmetry and adding a couple sets of suitcase carries and landmine rotations. Suitcase carries are good. but, you know, windmills are great. Windmills are great. So suitcase carries will strengthen the QL kind of in an isometric way. Windmills, you're going to move that QL through a range of motion. You're going to move it.

You're going to extend it. You're going to contract it. You can add resistance to it. You can also do side bends with a dumbbell if you want to keep it real basic. But just like any muscle, you know, isometrics are great to strengthen. But once you move outside of a particular range, outside of the isometric that you're training, you start to lose that strength.

So I don't remember how many degrees outside of that isometric. 15. 15, yeah. So full range of motion, you want to add to something like this. Windmills. I mean, kudos to this person, though, for having the thought to,

they're in maps aesthetic, they get hurt QL, they drop down to 15 symmetry and they add suitcase carriers. So unless you have a train on the right track. Yeah, if you're not, unless you have a trainer background, a pretty solid move direction, right?

I would just, the thing I would add is windmills. Yep. Add windmills, start them off, body weight, get really good at them, and then progressively load them and get strong in those, and that's going to bulletproof that QL. Next question is from Kirky Brad. I wake up at 4.30 a.m. to be on the gym floor at 5 a.m. Do I or should I eat before training in the morning?

I do eat a high carb meal before bed. Now, the carbs you ate the night before are going to fuel you. Now, if you're doing a really long, arduous, workout, then it may benefit you to drink carbohydrates during the workout, right? So you can have a carbohydrate drink or powder that you can buy. You can do coconut water, which is what I'll do sometimes because it's got some electrolytes in it. But if you're doing a traditional strength training workout, 45 minutes to an hour, you probably don't need to eat anything, the meal you had the night before. Now, there are cases where some people, no matter what,

need to have a little food. I've had clients like this. Like no matter of But they had to have a little something. So have I. And so my answer to this would be this is such a personal preference thing. Because I've had clients that they have to have something or they get faint and they feel weird. Yeah. So we have to eat something. Other clients I've had, they do better on an empty stomach.

I would say that's the first most important thing. What do you prefer? Do you feel okay? And can you eat and go right into working out and not feel lethargic from it? So like that. So one, number one thing, how do you feel from it? Do you like it? Do you not like it being fed or not fed?

Then the second consideration I would is where are you at with hitting your macro targets that you need to hit? Because sometimes when I have a client that trains in the morning and they, they prefer not to eat. But then because they skip and they don't eat there, they don't eat their first meal till say like nine or 10 and then they're behind on protein or something and they consistently under eat protein, then this becomes a client that I'm like, hey, let's see if we can get a shake before.

And so I think number one, consideration, how you feel, what do you prefer? Second consideration, how good are you the rest of the day hitting your macro targets? If you check both those boxes, then do whatever works for you. Now, by the way, sometimes people will say, well, I have to have something in my stomach, otherwise they get a little faint, but the reality is they're just eating too low calories anyway. So I've had clients like that. Well, let's try eating more on the days during the day anyway and see what happens.

And that solved the problem. Look, if you like the show, you can find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media. We'll see you there. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at Mind Pumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic, nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin

to systematically transform the way your body looks, feel. and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now, plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support,

and until next time, this is Mind Pump.