Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2939: This Forgotten Exercise Builds Your Back, Bulletproofs Your Shoulders and Boosts Your Bench

Episode Date: September 5, 2026

MAPS Abs and Butt: https://mapsabsandbutt.com Code: LAUNCH for 40% off. Includes Butt Building Diet Guide, Women's Supplement Guide, at-home dumbbell version, and a free second program at checkout (Muscle Mommy or Muscle Mommy 15).   In this episode the guys break down why the cross-bench dumbbell pullover is one of the most forgotten and underrated exercises in the gym — covering how it trains a fundamental human movement pattern tied to throwing mechanics, why it fixes shoulder problems that nothing else touches, how it builds like a compound lift despite being an isolation movement, its unique benefits for thoracic mobility and rib expansion, and why it was a staple of old school bodybuilding for a reason. They also cover Adam's negotiating style and how radical honesty built Mind Pump's long term partnerships, a deep dive on Shilajit and the studies showing testosterone increases in healthy middle aged men, bone mineral density improvements in postmenopausal women and upregulation of extracellular matrix genes, the addiction economy Venn diagram showing 1 in 8 young men watch pornography, gamble and game every single day, the LifeLog and Facebook connection, gratitude practice and how Adam is using sauna time to rewire his relationship with wanting more, why electricians are now one of the most in-demand and highest-paid careers in the country, and Caldera Lab's new eye serum clinical study results. Then they coach live callers submitted through mplivecaller.com.   Mind Pump Fitness Coaching: https://mindpumpfitnesscoaching.com 1.9 NASM CEUs   SPONSORS   Organifi (Shilajit gummies): https://organifi.com/mindpump Code: MINDPUMP for 20% off.   Caldera Lab (Eye Serum): https://calderalab.com/mindpump Code: MINDPUMP for 20%    LMNT (electrolytes): https://drinklmnt.com/MindPump Free sample pack with any purchase, no code needed. 1,000mg sodium, no sugar.   LINKS   Submit a live caller question: https://mplivecaller.com Mind Pump Store: https://mindpumpstore.com Maps Fitness Products: https://mapsfitnessproducts.com Instagram: @mindpumpmedia   0:00 - Intro 2:43 - The cross-bench dumbbell pullover — the best exercise most people have never done 6:52 - Why it trains a fundamental human movement pattern and fixes shoulder problems like nothing else 12:43 - Builds like a compound lift, improves thoracic mobility and strengthens the rib cage 20:39 - Adam's negotiating style — radical honesty and The Godfather lesson 29:42 - Shilajit studies — testosterone, bone density and gene expression 32:24 - The addiction economy — 1 in 8 young men watch porn, gamble and game daily 39:21 - LifeLog, Facebook and the same-day launch conspiracy 45:55 - Adam's sauna gratitude practice and rewiring the relationship with wanting more 54:19 - Electricians are now one of the highest paid and most in-demand careers in the country 1:11:02 - Caller: Jason (California) — firefighter paramedic, major car accident, 2 months out 1:25:25 - Caller: Shannon (Washington) — 62-year-old trainer, chronically lean, needs to eat more 1:48:33 - Caller: Jennifer (South Carolina) — lifelong endurance athlete, 135lb bench at 52, needs to reverse diet  

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mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstor.com. I'm talking right now, hit pause, head on over to mindpumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Look, do you want to build your back? Do you want to bulletproof your shoulders? Do you want to boost your bench press?

There's one exercise that does all of that, and it's one exercise. A lot of you are not doing. It's a phenomenal movement. You got to do it. It's great. We're going to talk about it today. the cross bench dumbbell pull over.

Let's get to it. Forgotten great movement. It is. That's a good exercise. So when you break down this exercise, which we're going to do, we're going to break it down and why it's such an awesome exercise. But when you break it down, it becomes clear why this was such a prized movement in the early days of bodybuilding and strength training.

Because back in the day, lifters prized certain exercises for two reasons. One, it was a feat of strength that seemed to matter. They didn't pick any exercise to see how strong they were. It's not like they were competing over a calf raise. They would do lifts that meant you were really strong. Like just like an overhead press. That's an obvious one. Like a heavy weight overhead.

If you could lift more than I can, you're probably just stronger than I am overall. So that's a good example. The other reason why they price certain movements is they just noticed to change their bodies. It just developed great muscle, great definition, functionality. And back in the day, the cross-bench pullover was one of those lifts. Like, this was a lift that bodybuilders used to compare each other over. They would compete with. In fact, they would even do it with a barbell at times to see how strong they were.

And somehow it just kind of fell out of favor to the point where you actually still, even today, we talk about this exercise all the time, but even today, you rarely see people doing these in the gym, which is such a travestice because they're such a phenomenal. I wonder why. Yeah, because it's such a valuable extra. Because it's hard to get into? No, I have a guess. What is it?

I mean, what is the thing that we learn all these years of podcasting? Like, the most simple, basic stuff that we talk about is the most appealing and shareable. And people, like, it's just, and I think that movement is not obvious. Like, it doesn't fall neatly into a category. Oh, yeah, like, you don't, like, the average person, okay, obviously, we have a lot of educated listeners. And so they're, like, well, my know, exactly. what it's for. Okay, most people would see a dumbbell pullover

of a client who just hired you and you showed them that movement. You said, what are you working here? I guarantee they would go, I have no idea. You'd be wrong too. Yeah, exactly. And they'd probably be wrong. And so I think because of that, people are just unsure of what they're supposed to be

feeling doing. And so I think that's why because it's really not that hard to get into. You really don't need a lot of room. You can easily regress with weight and range of motion, there's a lot of reasons why it shouldn't be forgotten.

But I do think it's one of those things. It's like when you walk in a gym and you see one of those really complex machines that don't make sense. Yeah, if you're like, yeah, what is this? You know, and so people walk away from it. I think you're right. And I think the other reason why is it's been replaced

by inferior replacements. So if you look at like a straight arm pulldown with a rope or a straight bar, you see that happen. I go into gyms and I see that exercise, probably once a week, right? Whereas they see a dumbbell crossbench pullover, never. And if you looked at them both,

you'd think they were the same, they're not. It's a similar movement, but they're not the same movement. Unbelievably inferior. Yes, it's so different. It's funny you bring that up because I haven't thought about it. I haven't thought about it in a long time, and that was such a bodybuilder movement.

Yeah. With the cable. Yes. Or the ropes. It was just, and I'd always be like, dude, why? Yeah, with the cables? I'm like, grab a dumbbell and the stretch that you get on the dumbbell, how much you can load it, like just so much better.

It's interesting, too, because one is a mass building power, strength building movement. The other one is like a squeeze isolation. Yeah, that's what, you know, bodybuilders use it as a finisher. That's right. Yeah. That's right, 100%. So let's talk about why this is such a phenomenal exercise and why it should be in your routine. Well, first off, it's a fundamental human movement.

So there are certain human movements that you should. should train and strengthen because we consider them what are what are considered fundamental. So an easy one would be this, like walking is fundamental, right? Humans need to walk. So now we don't need to exercise it as much because we still do it all the time. Squatting, overhead pressing. Squatting, overhead pressing, you know, being able to pull, being able to twist. These are called foundational human movements.

Well, being, getting your arm, you're humorous from up here to down, kind of cross body, is fundamental. Our ability to throw is one of the things that makes us unique as animals. Like there is no animal that throws more accurately than a human.

In fact, a five-year-old can throw with more accuracy than any primate. And that's one of the reasons why we became such successful hunters is we were able to throw with incredible power and accuracy. And if you look at the shoulder joint

and how the humorous moves in conjunction with the scapula and how everything moves together and all the muscles are attached, you can see clearly that it's designed to be able to throw really effectively. Well, a crossbench pullover strengthens this movement

and keeping it strong protects your shoulder joint and it makes your whole body strong. That's the thing about fundamental human movements. When you strengthen them, they tend to have all kinds of crazy carryover. Example is a squat, right? A leg press is great.

It's good exercise, but it doesn't have the same carryover to everyday life. like a squat does. And that's because a squat is a fundamental human movement, whereas a leg press, not so much. This is very true of the crossbench. You know, I love that you compared it to that

because one of the things that I've connected the dots personally with keeping pullovers in my routine, what it's done for my overall shoulder health reminds me of what deep squatting is done for my overall hip health. Yes. Like just the, like I talked about how long it took me to get a real deep squat. and I had a lot of hip pain, a lot of low back pain.

Once I had got the mobility to be able to do that, just maintaining a deep squat has kept my hips and my low back really healthy. I'd say the same thing about my shoulder. The ability to get a good, full range of emotion pullovers has kept my shoulders. And one of the things I always knows, if I start to feel like I'm locking up there,

I tend to go right back over there and get back into my routine. So huge value when it comes to that. Totally. Yeah, especially too, like, you know, I want to say, say it's like an antidote to throwing, but it's like basically, you know, being able to sustain, you know, that type of like forward movement, uh, with your upper body to then now we train it and

we get that eccentric work and control and like it helps keep everything intact and strong. It does to counter it. It was, so the pullover now, I'll be clear, there are regressions to the pullover, but the pullover itself was always part of my arsenal for all my clients who had shoulder, problems. So you may look at a pull over and think, oh, you know, those who they're familiar with it, oh, that's a bodybuilding movement, builds a lot of muscle. For shoulder mobility, it's magic.

And here's why. When you have a client, when I would have a client that had shoulder problems, oftentimes it was when they were trying to lift their arm up above their head. They'd only get it up to a certain point, and then it would hurt and they weren't able to. But when they're resisting a weight that brings their arm back over their head, suddenly they have shoulder mobility. Suddenly the shoulder joint opens up and we're able to now move the humorous, move the upper arm into this position that they can't normally bring into position themselves.

And this opened things up. This pullover movement was like eight out of ten times was the only thing I had to do to fix people's shoulders. This is what they found. This is why like stretching the whole techniques have changed over the years is because like when you actually can tense the muscle up, you create more stability, which then sends that signal to your central nervous system. We're safe.

We're safe going further in this range of motion because now we have the stability, support system in place. Totally. Well, you're, you are, you're forcing the body to, like, regain connectivity. Yes. To that range of motion. I mean, I remember that aha moment. It wasn't that long ago.

We had actually started a mind pump when we had seen Brink. And, uh, and we were doing 9090s. And, you know, we were trying to lift our back foot up. Oh, then he lifted it for you. Yeah. And it was just like, you lifted it all the way up there and I went, you can do it. Yeah. Like it's, it's just like, but I lost that ability.

But if you, if he held it and then I pushed against it, like, then all of a sudden you would feel you're getting reconnected there. That's what you're doing essentially with the weight in a pullover is you're letting the shoulder get in that place. You're because you're resisting against the weight now that everything's waking up in that area that's been dormant probably for such a long time, especially for our advanced age clients that just haven't had to do this in so long. It's just pruning the ability.

And so when you stand them up and you go, hey, lift your arm up to your point, they go like this. And that's as far as they get. I lay them on the bench, grab a weight, and then I also think all the way back. All the way back. And they're resisting a weight. so now they're waking all that up. And man, it's such a, it is. It reminds me, that's why I love that you connected it to the squat,

because that's what it reminds me of like, I had so much hip and low back pain. And it was, I'm, when I'm fit, right, I'm fit, I'm ripped, I'm lean, but I was only squatting down to parallel and I couldn't get deeper than that because of my lack of ankle mobility and my hip mobility. Once I addressed those things, got into a deep squat, like, I've never had those problems again, just simply by lifting and moderate way. Just being able to take that through full range of motion has changed everything.

Totally. It's also one of the very few isolation exercises because it is an isolate. It is a single joint movement, but it doesn't behave like a single joint movement. It actually builds muscle like a compound lift, which is wild. It pairs to like muscles that aren't normally paired together. That's a great point. Lats and triceps. Whereas typically it's lats and biceps.

Typically when you're doing a back exercise, it's biceps that are helping. what they pullover, it's triceps. But back to the point that I was making, isolation movements don't typically build muscle like compound lifts. Everybody knows it. You also get a little bit of chest activation. This one builds like a compound.

Like if you gain 20 or 30 pounds on your dumbbell pullover, you build muscle like if you did a pull-up or you're doing a row. It's one of those isolation. I think this is one of the reasons why bodybuilders used to compete with this or compare this lift

because it was a mass builder. It definitely doesn't act like, in fact, I'll put it in a lift or in a routine as an isolation lift, but I know when I do it, like, I'm kind of getting the same muscle building effects I get from a compound lift, which is really cool. And in fact, off the top of my head, I can't think that. As you're talking here now, I am trying to rack my brain. Like, what other movement has these properties that, like, is so unique, is considered a single joint or so an isolation movement, but yet has this like three. And those are decent, like, you know, You're talking about the lats, the chest, and the triceps, like, the three big opposing type of muscle.

Like, there's just very unique. It is. Like, what else would be something like that? I don't know. And I don't know of too many strength training exercises that move from back to front in that way. It's like, I can't, you really can't replace it. Well, into what I like about it, when you do the crossbench and, you know, you're bridging that whole time. So you're really driving, you're working on leg drive, too, which I feel like it has, you know, some carryover to bench.

because of the fact that you're anchoring so hard by, you know, lighting up your legs. I'm, you know, going through this whole range of motion. You also get a great ab, too. Yeah, it is very much so. Unique. Yeah, unique in, like, it's compound type of benefits, yet being in isolation. It's also great for thoracic mobility. So, all right, what is that, right?

So think of somebody who's older, who's got kind of that rounded upper back. I don't mean necessarily the shoulders are forward, but you notice the upper spine, the back. So in an extreme case, it would be like a humpback, right? So you watch cartoons and they got like the scary bad guy with the humpback or whatever. You know, I was at the gym the other day and I saw this in a couple elderly kind of older individuals where they, you know, they're coming in, they're working out, but they've got that really rounded kind of thoracic area,

that's the thoracic part of the spine, which is that upper back area. And improving mobility there would be moving it in the opposite. opposite direction. Now, we could always work on rows, try to pull the shoulders back, trying to bring the chest out. This is kind of what you would do. But here with a crossbench pullover, the resistance is making that thoracic mobility go in that direction. It's moving the shoulders in a position, pushing the chest forward to improve that mobility. This was, this was one of the big benefits I got from this exercise. I have a tendency to have a little bit of an over rounded thoracic area. And when I do pullovers,

it's better. Why the bench is pushing up on my thoracic part of my spine. I'm using that resistance. I'm expanding my rib cage, pulling back and it stretches it and moves it in the opposite direction. Well,

and since you're in the corrective direction, too, one of the things, again, that's so great about this is how easily you can regress this. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those movements where as a trainer, I could like, I could put my hand

at a place as far as I want them to go. Like, here, let's just get there and then have them pause, connect there. You know, and then over weeks, we're getting deeper and deeper and further and further.

And you could start really, really light. I mean, I've started clients with, like, just a little light 10-pound dumbbell that they're doing and get work on that range of motion and connecting and then deeper and deeper. And so, you know, it's a really easy movement that as a coach, I can really regress and progress somebody really nicely over time without risking a lot of injury,

which is always a great go-to move when you're a coach. And again, it's great for the lats. Like, you want to get that nice V-taper in your lats. You want to stretch the lats, load them in a stretch position. It's one of those exercise that does it. It's also good for rib cage expansion. Now, I'm going to be clear here.

It's not going to give you a bigger rib cage. The reason why I'm saying that is in the 60s and 70s, bodybuilders used the dumbbell crossbench pullover as a way to give them a bigger rib cage. You might be thinking, like, why would they even want that? Well, back in those days, bodybuilders, they used to like to show off their kind of side chest pose. And bodybuilders still do this today.

A side chest shot is one of the kind of staple poses that you do as a bodybuilder. And when you do what you want to stick your chest out, you're on the side, you're kind of flexing your bicep. But back in the 60s and 70s, they really would stick their chest out. And they used to all brag about who could put a glass of water on top of their upper chest. But you needed a big rib cage to do it. And it gave them that thickness from the side, right, so that you didn't have this flat rib cage. And they thought that the pullover made the rib cage bigger. Now, this is not what's happening.

It's not giving you a bigger rib cage. You're not going to change necessarily how your rib cage looks. But what you are doing is stretching and strengthening all the muscles that connect the ribs to each other. And this is important, everybody. If you've ever pulled out a rib, if you've ever done an exercise and you're like, oh, it feels like a rib is out or something happened there. What happened is you've pulled or tightened one of those intercostals or one of those muscles that connect the ribs together. Why is that important? Why would I want strong muscles or strong connections between ribs?

Well, first of all, they float, so they attach to the spine, then they come around, and nothing connects them together except for the muscles and connective tissue in between. And when that's strong and stable, it gives you better ability to rotate. It gives you better power. It gives you more torque. It gives you more stable when you press overhead, when you press in front, protect it against impact. It protects you against impact. It's very important. And when those muscles are rigid and tight and not strong, your ability to do it.

a lot of exercises goes down. And this is one of the only exercises that through the movement, you're expanding the rib cage and bringing it together, thus strengthening some of those muscles. I saw you did that and you had the story today and I saw you did your...

Oh, my favorite old school exercises. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you reading something or was that just on your mind? No, I was just on my mind. Today's my day in the life thing or whatever. And I was like, you know, what are the lifts that you never see people do in the gym that are just so awesome?

And that was the first one that came to mind. because some exercises, I know why we don't see them. It's because they're really hard. Like a front squat. Like, why doesn't anybody front squat? They suck. They're really hard. But I pullover, it's like, you guys, you got to do this.

I just saw it was a trailer. I think it's barbell films, but they're going to, like, it's like a short documentary that they're making of like 1920s lifters. No way. Yeah. Really? Which I thought would be rad. So hopefully they come out with that soon.

But yeah, I saw this trailer. It was cool. They had all those, you know, old time lifters and that. that, you know, bodybuilders to, you know, the performers. We should research who's behind it as far as, like, the director who thought to put together. Probably make for a good interview just to talk about. Obviously, if somebody put that together, there's a reason why they put that together. And a lot of people don't know much about that era.

Yeah. That would be an interesting conversation. Yeah. It was a cool area. What's interesting to me is that all those, they all had, like, regular jobs. Like, they all had hard jobs. They weren't performers. Yeah, you weren't making a ton of money.

Yeah. And yet they had the time to go lift weights and do that and look amazing and be real strong. It's pretty cool. Did they also care about what they thought was building the rib cage too to exaggerate the vacuum pose too? Was that also part of it? The vacuum pose came because of the, then it became about like how you looked. So it was small waist. Yeah, like how dramatic of it like a big rib cage, small, tiny waist.

Yeah, yeah, that's when they started doing that. I got to talk about you brought me, you brought up the day in the life. And in there I did, you know, like a little segment where I talked about what I liked and didn't like about you guys. It's kind of funny. But I got to talk about being in the room with you when you negotiate Adam. So yesterday, I just got to tell the audience this, dude, it is. So all pucker's up. So do you.

Everybody does. Of course, it's the most. He's like, don't put it on your dog. Everybody gets uncomfortable. Listen, you brought it up. Listen, like, negotiations with Adam, like, if you either have to leave the room or you have to really focus on trying not to talk or like. It's so uncomfortable.

It's true. Because you feel like he's like going too hard. I'm going to see all this lands. Where's he going with that? That's so hard, dude. So difficult to be it. I like it. But he pulls it out every time.

Afterwards, I like it. In the process. Oh, that went well. Yeah, in the process. I thought you were to lose that, dude. Where'd you get that from? You know, I think... Because it's definitely a skill, but it's also a talent, for sure.

Yeah, I've done it a lot, right? At this point, right? I mean, I'm almost 45 years old, and I've had a lot of conversations like that. What I'd say it really stems from is, and I wish I remember, like, the moment that this unlocked for me. but and I want to attribute it to a Jack Welch book called Winning. And if I hope I'm referencing the right book that I got it from of just radical candor and how important that is in business negotiating.

And, you know, just being so honest. And when you really think about it, it's really difficult to do that. There's a part of our human nature that wants to hold back or appease the other person. And a lot of people, like a lot of sales people are, you know, manipulating this and that. And the more I've learned to lean in of just saying what's on my mind and what I believe to be true, it comes off sometimes a little rough or brass. But what I have found in that process is at the end of the day, even if people go back and forth and can be combative with me, they tend to respect the conversation.

conversation, the honesty. And sometimes I know I could like, uh, probably push too far. And I, and I'll say that. I'll just be like, listen, I just, I'm being just direct with you. And so, or I'm just being straight with you. Like I could BS you. And so there's, I've learned to even be like, if someone gets really. Yeah, because you have to be both, because I was thinking about this yesterday. Because again, yesterday we're in the room and you're negotiating and it just sits every time I'm in the room, I'm always like, my God. But I think you, you have to, you have to be both the best and worst person to negotiate against. I would say best because you're going to get, you're going to get it straight out.

And you're not, it's not like you're trying to rip anybody off. I've never heard you. In fact, I've heard you negotiate with partners and not push too hard because you're like, we can't deliver. Like, I'm only going to do what we can deliver. I've heard you say that many times. So that makes you the best. You're also the worst because somebody trying to get a little bit of what ain't going to happen.

It's not going to happen with that. it's just not going to have me. And I think of what you're saying is I think it's just the, it's the, it's the, it's just being really and I have a lot of conviction when I am honest about something. And I've also, too, I've done my homework and my research.

I was just going to say, because you know what you're worth. It's not like you're just going in to get the best deal. Yeah. So that's why you're so confident. So yeah, a lot of like, so Katrina and I, because Katrina manages a lot of obviously our partners now and so I'm not in the thick of it as much as I used to be when we first started. And so when she

wants to bring me into a conversation and she said, hey, I got a call set up for you. I want you to talk to so-and-so from this company we work with at this time. And like, I won't just go into that conversation. And then something like you saw yesterday play out. I'm like, oh, I need to know this. I want this. I want this. And then I'll study all the stuff. And then I'll be like, okay, I feel, I feel very confident about this. I think this is fair. This is what I want. And then that's exactly what you're going to get from me is I'm just going to go straight for that. And I'm not going to, I'm not going to waver. And I have, I have, I have. conviction that I believe it to be true and I just will we'll shoot it that way and it's not um

I don't think it was natural I think I've I've practiced that so much I've practiced that so much I've practiced because it's not easy there is a part of me we talk about this with uh our journey of interviewing people it's in mine it's in my nature to want to be liked by people and friends like you know like I I think we all have that and so you know there's you there's a part of that you're you're wanting to do is like you're like you don't want to feel rude or mean or you don't want to come off aggressive and so internally you're wrestling with that but you know you need to be honest and truthful and so it's like they all have a conversation sometimes I'm like you know what that wasn't fully honest like I didn't say what I was I felt I was trying I was trying to appease that person or I was trying

to be too friendly and it's just like gosh dang it and it's and those are the ones that never go well if it doesn't go well and so I would always evaluate afterwards and it's just like that's my fault It's my fault because I wasn't truthful. I wasn't honest. I wasn't direct. And like I said, I've had a lot of people afterwards will say things. Like, hey, I want, I thank you for being honest. Yeah, I think that a big part of it, because on its face, I think someone would think

that a good negotiator is just somebody that gets the best deal. And I don't think that's necessarily it. That's part of it. But I think the other part of it is that you can't get the best deal, unless you lack integrity. But if you have integrity, which. I think you need to be good in business for a long period of time, right? Lack of integrity might get you only so far, but then it's not going to get you so super far. But I think it's because you know what we're worth, but you also know what they're going to get and what's going to value them.

And so you're not going to go like, again, I've heard you say to, I've heard you talk with us and say, I'm actually not going to charge that much because we can't deliver. Yeah. So it's not like you're just trying to get the best deal. Yeah. But that's what makes you confident. Yeah. And I think in making a deal. It's so uncomfortable, though.

It is, I mean, it can be uncomfortable even for me, too. Because there's like, I don't, yeah, I don't want to. You get excited. There's a rush and adrenaline to it, for sure. But a really good negotiated deal. Both parties walk away and, like, maybe in the moment they don't feel happy because maybe the opposing person who's on the other side of it with me is trying to, you know, weasel or get a deal. but if I did my job really well,

then they should be happy. Like they'll get what they deserve and we'll get what we deserve and it's fair. And that's a really good deal. And I pride ourselves or myself on going into a situation like that and keeping a, I want a lifelong partner

that we make, which is why if you've been listening to the show for a very long time, most of our partners have been with us for a very long time. Because I try and find what I think is very, very fair But, you know, I think what you guys get to see and where it can be uncomfortable is when you know the other side is trying to weasel or do that. And you're just like, yeah, this is not going to go well for that person because you're not going to.

That's most of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Waiting and listening to their reaction. Well, there's a lot of bluffing that happens. That's what's uncomfortable is you hear the bluffing from the other side, but you're not sure. Yeah.

And so you're like, oh, God, are we going to, like, what's going to happen? Are we going? Adam don't get, he's like, he's going. And so I'm over here like sitting that uncuffing. comfortable silence. Yeah, dude. So I'm over here, distract me. I'm going on Instagram.

I'm not going to think. And I feel like I'm going to see something. Well, that's probably the part that's fun is what you're calling a bluff is fun. There's, there's something about when you feel confident, you know, you've done enough research and you've got enough. Well, one thing that I learned is when I'm in the room with someone who is, who knows what they're doing, I will not, even if I disagree, I will never jump in or speak out. There's a scene in the Godfather.

Oh, yeah. There's a scene in the Godfather that illustrates it well when, I think it's in the first Godfather where Marlon Brando's character, he's negotiating or talking to these other guys. And they want to start selling drugs. And they want the Corley Only family to jump in. And they're offering all this money. And, you know, the lead guy, Marlon Brando's character is like, he's saying no. And his oldest son pipes up a little bit. Hey, Dad, but what about?

And he looks at his son. It gives him a look. And so his son quietes down. after that he looks at his son, he goes, never speak out against the family in front of other people. That's what ends up getting Marlon Brando's character shot is because other people saw,

oh, if we kill him, then the oldest son. That's right. Was it the right? Was it the right, Doug? Yeah, you're right. It's a long time ago. Wait, what was the quote? Don't ever take sides with anyone.

What was that? Oh, yeah. Don't ever take sides with anyone against the family. Well, this is Michael Corleone. Yeah. I totally, now you say that. I'm like, oh, I remember that scene. That's such a great scene.

And that was, it was right book, yeah, Doug? Yeah, correct book. Yeah, yeah. Jack Welch. Jack Welch winning, right? Arguing the lack of the honest communication and the biggest dirty little secret in business. All right, I got some cool studies on Shilajit.

We haven't talked about them in a while or about the supplement Shilajit or, you know, the gummies that Organify has. Which, by the way, Shilajit's getting popular now, although it's been used for a long time. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, but some of Shilajit is not. not the real stuff that comes from. Or not palatable at all. Yes. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's another one. But it's not the real stuff. They'll make it in a lab. It's not the real stuff. Real Shilajit. Prima V is one of the best sources of real Shilajit.

And that's the one that Organify uses. So they sourced it really well. But anyway, I looked up the studies on it. And it's, you know, it's pretty remarkable on how well it works for certain things. So it does raise testosterone, pretty reliable. pretty reliably and healthy middle-aged men. So we talked about that.

Bone mineral density in post-menopausal women with osteopenia. So they actually gave it to women with osteopenasuses before osteoporosis, post-menopausal, no changes in their

lifestyle. So they weren't having lift weights or anything. And they saw an improvement in their osteopenia. Then it's good for fatigue-related strength and collagen breakdown.

And then here's what I like. Skeletal muscle gene, expression. So check this out. They gave obese adults 250 milligrams twice a day for eight weeks. And what they show was an upregulation of a cluster of extracellular matrix genes that support collagen connective tissue at the gene level. And it's like this, this interesting, strange compound that oozes out of the mountains.

Yeah, it's like tar, right? It's like tar out of a tree or something. No, it's not a tree. It's an old organic material that's been pressurized. and broken down over thousands of years. It's so wild. I think I asked you this before and I was wrong. Ancient plants.

Because it's not an adaptogen, but it kind of acts like one. It does, and it's used heredetic medicine. So, Arivedic medicine has used Shilajit for a long time. So it's one of those interesting... I know, what would you... What category of...

If it's not an adaptogen, but it has adaptogen-like properties. It's not a mushroom and it doesn't have... You know, you probably could label it as an adaptogen. You know, maybe Doug, look up on that. Because it helps with stress, right? Yeah, see if it in Ayurvedic medicine, if they label it as an adaptogen. I'm not sure if it's a classic adapt.

It is. It is. Oh. Yeah. It doesn't wrong. And it does act that way. Yeah, very good. I mean, listen to when you describe it.

And I'm like, that sounds very, yeah, sounds very much so like a traditional adaptogen. So it is then. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I just saw a Venn diagram that went viral on X. And they labeled it the addiction economy. You guys, this is really bad.

It is not good. I'll pull it up right now. So when it comes to addiction, typically men have more addiction issues than women. So I don't know if you guys knew that or not. That's like a statistic. Okay. So this is what women have it more than men? No, men tend to have addiction issues.

Oh, of course. More than, okay. I have theories on that. You have guessed why you would think that would be? We might be more dopamine driven. I mean, I would think it's because we're, we hold more shit in. That may be it. That might be it.

You know what? And so you, one of the things that women are better at than for sure than us is like sharing and communicating with others, which has. Maybe think more coping. Yeah. And so it's a coping method you would think for us is that we're holding it all in. And so medicate with drugs, alcohol, things like that. It's a good theory. Yeah.

I mean, that would be my guess. I think, I think, yeah, it says biological differences, social. pressure and behavioral tendencies. Yeah, there you go. I mean, that would fall under social pressures and behavioral tendencies. So check this out. Okay. So these are what would be

classified as addictive behaviors or qualities for certain things. So check this out. This is young men. So this is, how old are these men? Aged 18 to 29. So men, 18 to 29. One out of every

four men watch pornography daily. So they consider that addictive. Okay. Almost one in four, so almost one in four, gamble daily. I didn't know that. I did not know gambling was that big of a deal for young men. I'm sure that went up too. Oh, in young men, it's crazy.

It's like a high school problem. This is like a problem that like my buddy who's like was a principal and like they have problems with like all the kids that are doing it now. Okay. You're supposed to be like 18 and older to be able to do it, but they're obviously how they're regulating it. Yeah, so majority of young men play video games

daily. They consider that addictive kind of So trip off this. This is where it gets crazy. So the Venn diagram shows what percentage of men do all three daily? One and eight. One out of eight men between 15 to 29 watch porn, gamble, and game every day. So all of them? All of them on a daily basis.

Bro, that's more than 10%. That's crazy. Well, what's crazy is all of it. Like just one of it is already One of them is destructive. Right. You're doing all three of them. That's very, and I bet you if you looked at those young men,

because if you're doing all three of those daily, you're probably not socializing at all. You're super isolated. You probably have no sense of purpose because like, how much time do you have to have a sense of purpose when you're playing video games gambling or? You don't talk to girls, obviously. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. So, and with that is probably a high rate, I would guess, of depression. Yeah. And anxiety. What do you think, Justin? Do you think it's part of the conspiracy theory that I sent over to you in the social media one?

I mean, sure. Is there a new one? Well, it's not. We brought this up, I think, a long time ago of the DARPA. Like, they've, so was it LifeLog is what it used to be called? There's a program for collecting data from individuals. The CIA. And so then it's weird.

And they fact-checked it on there. We could fact-check it as well. I mean, Doug, you're looking at it. Life-Log, CIA program. How long did it run and when did it shut down? Yeah, because it was literally the day after they shut it down, Facebook started to become. Oh, let me guess because we're giving them more information for free. So we need a corporate, so it can't be attached to the government now.

Oh. So now we have to live in the private sector. And they also were alluding to the fact that maybe even Amazon was another one. Oh, I don't know. So the theory. This way they collect all the information they want. Yeah, so the idea was get document or basically get. people to share all of their personal...

For free. For free. Without, without it, you know, and... That way, it's not going to... February 4th, 2004 is when Facebook launched. When did the... When did Life Log? February 4, 2004. What? They're not even hiding it.

I mean... What? I mean, that's way... I mean, the fact that they didn't even wait 24 hours. I mean, that's like literally somebody... It was like a click of a button on the computer, dog. It was like, let's in this one. We're opening this one. Wait, so look up life just lifelot. What is life?

So was it them collecting information? And what were they collecting? All the data that we would give on. Yeah. Yeah. Just probably scan the internet and looking for, yeah, problematic people. It was a 2003 research project by the U.S. military designed to track and archive a person's entire daily existence into a massive digital day. Of course, you don't need that anymore because everybody does it themselves.

Yeah. We give it to you. Willingly. And Facebook also owns Instagram. So they've got Instagram, Facebook, and WhatsApp, and WhatsApp that we were putting all this. Wow. So, geez, so there we go.

And then if Google, because the product of here was Google and Amazon, we're also attached to all this too. And it's like if you're, if you got all of our search history, you've got all of our documents, pictures, tracking where we go every single day. The store, like, we're all feeding into this like super computer. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. God. Do you guys remember the movie, uh, ex machina? Yeah. And remember that robot? And how she studied, she gave it, she basically told him she studied all of his searches, all the things. So she could turn into like the perfect. Yeah. Yeah.

Person to manipulate him. Right. Exactly. So fit all his categories of his interests and, yeah, he'd fall in love with her. Oh, God. That's crazy. Isn't that wild? That's crazy.

That's got to be a crazy coincidence. I mean, what's so crazy about that. I mean, I feel like it would be so brilliant to them to just. wait 15 days to throw people They'll lose that data, bro. You gotta get all that data. No, but I mean like to like at least show that it was I mean, that's like just purely like we don't give a F.

We're gonna, we're gonna do about it. We're turning this one off. We're turning this one right on. You know? The, the, I mean, it's all kind of scary. Like when you look at like how, because when you're addicted to drugs and alcohol, it's pretty obvious and everybody knows this bad.

I don't think there's anybody, I don't think anybody would be like, oh, that's, you know, that's okay. But like, porn. gambling, video games every single day that's destructive.

It is. It's destructive on you and there's young men right now more than 10% of men in that age group are doing all three

of them every single day so they're stuck in their room. Do you think, I mean, I like this idea of MySpace like coming back and not having

algorithm to like dictate what you look at and scroll through and all that. I'm not sure if people are going to buy into that, but like, you know, some kind of a social network that doesn't

add in all this, like, adding bits of, I'm super curious on how it's going to pan out. I'm following it too. I'm so... People might not like it. They might not like it because it's not going to... That's exactly what my theory is I don't think, I don't think, I mean... Like they say they want it, but then they get it and they're like, this sucks. Yeah. It's like a brick phone.

You know, I mean, there's a part, right? I think you even have, we all have to admit that, you know, you're getting fed stuff that you're interested in. Yeah. You know? So, I mean, I have now purchased a lot of things. They've done way better. Yeah, that have been popped in my fee because it's something that I would like or want.

And it's because they've figured out, you know, I buy all the things I've liked and tracked and been to. And so, sure, there's a part of me that goes like, oh, I'm totally being manipulated. But there's the other part of me is it's like, oh, I'm glad I found that thing. You know what I was right? And it could be innocent too, right? Like, it's not just like for, like, I bought a lot of stuff for my wife that is just like, oh, wow, that's a cool outfit. I would have never found that or saw that or I didn't ever heard of that brand or like, you know, and so because it's getting, so it's like, you know, if that, if the, you shut the algorithm down and it's just purely like, you know, OG Facebook or OG MySpace where I'm connecting to my family friends. It's like you probably. It's interesting. Like I, you know, I used to be really hard to find new music as well. Because like, there's no real like one. I heard somebody talking about this the other day. I think it was, um, what's his name? One of the Beatles. The, the, the main singer, Paul?

Paul, not Paul. John Lennon. John Lennon. Yeah, his son was talking about this. I know. I can't believe I forgot his name. But yeah, he was talking about like when MTV, he used to hate it because it was like, you know, all this like pre-prescribed like pop, you know, music.

And, but he's like there's no, if you could pinpoint one like specific place where it's like, well, there's like a culture here. You know, there's like something that you follow it because then you, you see like, you get introduced to a lot of things. and people, and you see, you know, reflect at school, at work, and, you know, and he's like, there's just, like, a multitude of cultures now. Yeah. It's like, it's so, to be able to just stumble across something is pretty rare that you're

going to like. And, but now when I've seen bands, like, it's, it's actually interesting because you'll, you'll see some bands that they'll just put out, like, one track and they try to, like, you know, emphasize the fact that they're introducing you to the sound. Like, I just came up with this riff, and then they're playing this. riff and you find out this band's been around for like 20 years. Yeah. You know, but it's like they're trying to like throw chum out there.

So people will just like, it'll come up on their Facebook algorithm. Like, oh, that's interesting. And I've been introduced to about 10 or 12 new bands that way. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. It's so hard to unify us. And I'm sure that there's lots of cases that you can argue why that it's so beneficial

that we have all this diversity and different things. But, you know, I saw I was watching something that was, highlighting like just like oh it was a book that it's a book that I mean right now the Bob Iger book Walt Disney guy and talking about how you know there was a time just what 30 30 40 years ago

where you know we we were all watching the same channel at the same time a show came on at 7 p.m. That was like the most popular show in country everybody was watching. And we're all talking about the same thing yeah exactly so then the next day at school or work we were

We're all talking about that because the only way you saw it was you had to catch it, which caused all of us to, like at the same time. And so, man, so much easier to keep kind of everybody on the same page. Now everything's so good. Well, think about how, like how, how different. My wife is actually a pretty good stickler about this usually, but my kids will want to watch something and they'll disagree because, you know, kids are kids. I want to watch this.

I want to watch that. And so the temptation is to be like, okay, we're going to give you 20 minutes of TV. You get to watch the TV. you watch an iPad. And she goes, no, you're going to pick something and have to watch it together. It's a very different experience to sit in the same room and watch together versus all of us doing our own thing. It's a very different. Oh, I saw that.

It's so much less social. Oh, it was such an unlock for me to, for when we, because it's now been, where are we at? I mean, you could probably go back on the podcast when I first announced that we completely removed the iPad from Max. We're coming up on a couple of years now. And, yeah, but he gets to watch TV. we totally let, but we watch as a family. That's right. Yeah, it's on it.

And it is so different. In fact, as being a seven-year-old, he rarely sits through anything all the way through. He normally is watching and then he's playing with his Legos or he's wrestling with me on the couch or it's just like, it is way different. It is nothing like when we allowed an iPad and he could watch a cartoon on there because he was locked. I mean, it was all-consuming. And that was the big switch for me when I realized that when I realized that when

he could be on the couch next to me and I was allowing him to watch a cartoon and then I would try and engage him and he almost like couldn't hear me until I put my face in front of him and was like hey and it was so it was you could tell it was innocent wasn't like he was being rude

like he was just locked in I'm like wow that's like this is we got this gotta go now you can put putting it up there huge difference huge difference you know as we were talking earlier about this addiction economy with young man which was really alarming like I said that Venn diagram went viral

I'm like what would be the solution. Like, just clear-cut solution, because you could say, turn those things off, don't do it, whatever. But people don't operate that way. Usually it's like, do this rather than just don't do that. Right. And young men in general, you know, therapy can be valuable, but therapy works better with women typically than men. And it's just we're wired. Not only that, I don't think that's to solve. No, but my point with that is, like, just therapeutizing or talking about things doesn't work as, not that it's bad. But or that doesn't work, but men, the data shows us they tend to be better with like a goal. Like do this instead of like, let's talk about this and talk about it. Application. Here's how you're going to fix it. And I'm thinking about it. What could young men do? And I'll tell you, I'll give you the, I'll give you the prescription. If you're listening to your young guy and you feel lonely and you're stuck in this pattern, try this. Lift weights, go to church and volunteer.

If you do those three things right there and you do them consistently, even if you don't believe in them, even if you think it's crazy, if you just did those three lifting weights, going to church and volunteering a little bit, that would change so much for you. So much for you. I'll tell you something else that I... So I shared this on my story, actually, just last night or the night before.

So one of the things I've been trying to practice with... So I've been doing the sauna every single night. And many times I'm by myself. Sometimes Katrina's in there with me, but most times I'm by myself. And since I'm in a sauna, no tech. I'm in there for 20 plus minutes anyways. I'm like, you know what?

I want to try and be consistent with gratitude practices. And the reason why that was spark. was I found myself, you know, shopping, looking for things that I don't need and, and desiring more stuff. That's good self-awareness. So you're like, I need to be more grateful. Yes, exactly.

And so I'm like, what am I doing? You know what I'm saying? Like, I have, I have, when I really do an evaluation of my life, I have the life, I have a better life than I dreamt of as a kid. What do I need more? Why don't, so, so anyway, so I'm, I pride is. And then what I wanted to do while I was doing this, and I shared this in my story, the notes of like,

I didn't want to be so generic of, I'm grateful for my wife. I'm grateful for my, like, like what I wanted to look into was things, either people or things that I would have, say, when I was 16 years old, been like, man, be so amazing.

So I'll give you, so funny, right? You've noticed, have you noticed me using the SIM like crazy? Yeah. This came from that. Oh, because you're like, man, if I had that when I was 16,

I lost my mind. Well, if you, if 16-year-old me said I had the baddest simulator, race car simulator at his work, and you like, he would, and I, oh, he would just be so disappointed in me. Right. So I'm sitting in there. And so what I try and do is, and so what I shared is like, what it ends up sparking is like this thing that I, that's sitting on a shelf somewhere, collecting dust. Or maybe a thing that I haven't taken care of and appreciated it because I've got two or three of it. now or what and and so

I think what we've what's happened to this and bringing in this full circle to what you're talking about is that a lot of men we're such a consumer we have so much access we have so much stuff that we've lost appreciation for a lot of great things in our life

and we've defaulted to these addictive mind numbing things when you may not even have to go out and go that active stuff it's like maybe just revisit some of the things that you thought of years ago you really wanted to do or have and you already have it. And maybe go show some appreciation towards it. And so this is just me sharing personally what I've noticed like, yeah.

And another thing to share like, you know, I was car shopping, right, as if I need that. And actually what it sparked up is like, you know, I love them being, I actually enjoy the process of cleaning them and detail them. It's like, man, I had two or three of them that was. weren't even detailed and clean. And it's like, you know what? Like, I'm going to spend the day doing that and just so yeah, there's like, it's unlocked some things for me that. And of course, while I'm doing all those things, I'm not doing it. I had such a great moment with Jessica recently because there's definitely times when she's so, like a kid, so grateful and joyful over things that I'm like, like we went car shopping for her. And there were two options of SUVs.

And one was the nicer, more expensive one. Okay. And it was the one I thought for sure she would want. So I was kind of pushing her in that direction. And we were talking and she goes, no, actually, I want this other one. I'm like, I thought she wanted it because it was the cheaper one. She's like, no, that's the one I like. So I get it.

And you should see her with this car. It's not like it's the most extravagant whatever car. But she's like, I want to do a photo shoot with it. I want to go park it somewhere and take photos of it. She's so, like, grateful. That's Katrina's like that. I tell you what, as a husband, you know, if you provide for your wife and then you do something

and then you see that, that, it just makes me want to go. You know that I... So obviously, you know, we talk about my stuff. Like, so for a lot of my early years, I attracted a lot of other girls that liked a lot of the material stuff like I did. Just to echo what you're saying,

I love that trade about Katrina. And I actually... It's such a great thing to have... And I would have, if you would have asked me when I was younger, I would have thought that I would have married or been with someone that was more like me. What I have found through dating and everything and where I'm at now in my life is like it actually makes the buying things for her and doing stuff way more enjoyable for me. Because she appreciates such little things. She doesn't need the most expensive thing or she doesn't care about name brand. It's like she likes what she likes and she's so appreciative of it.

So it also is way more fulfilling and I get way more joy for doing it. So I could totally relate to like how awesome that is to have a partner. Yeah, she's like a little kid. It's so funny. Well, it's interesting. You're talking about like kind of getting back to like hands on and, you know, like looking at those types of things. And what I used to enjoy a lot was like building things with my dad. And like even when we first started a podcast, I was like at my first house and we were like building ramps together.

And the kids were really little. Like just that entire process was like so fun for me. So, like, it's cool because school kind of, like, introduces that again. And so, like, Everett has this, like, little project. And he's like, he always, he just comes up with ideas I get really excited about. You know, it's like, oh, man. But I'm like, I don't want to, like, step in and, like, do the whole thing for him, you know? Because I'm just like, oh, it's so cool.

It's fun. So him and his buddies, like, came out with this idea. Like, they have, he has a couple classes where they allow these, like, skateboard little finger skateboards. Yeah. And so like, you know, back in the day, they'd have like the fidget spinners. Like some teachers were cool about, you know, you have anything because it's like, dude, I mean, it's so boring. Yeah. You're sitting there.

So he has a couple of teachers that are cool about that. And so he thought it's his idea. He's supposed to come up with a project to pitch and kind of sell to his classmates. It's like, you know, maybe this is something that they would actually buy. And so he's, he's creating like this little skate park. you know, for the fingerboards. And so, so, you know, I was kind of with him planning. He did most of planning.

He's done all that stuff. And anyway, we were starting to kind of, you know, put stuff together. And like, you know, poor Courtney is like, you know, she's completely the opposite brain of that. It has to be all already completely, you know, there has to be a blueprint for it. There has to be like instructions. Like, you know, like we always say it's kind of funny, but it's like, she's, rule follower i'm not you know it's like we're we're completely opposite you're an entrepreneur yeah so yeah and i love projects and so it anyway so she she had to take them because i was still coming home from work

um to go and went went to this like craft shop you know and i was like i want to take him home depo but you know it's all good uh and came up back with like materials and i'm like this isn't going to work this is going to fall apart and like it's not even good so anyway we started kind of going through it and i'm like you know what my dad is like an amazing like wood craftsman like he literally was going to be a wood shop teacher back in the day he makes like cabinetry all this kind of stuff and i'm like i want him to learn like that skill like you know because he's already shown interest in projects so i brought him over there and it was great just i took pictures i'm like watching from afar him teaching him like every little part of the process how to like plan it out how to measure properly how to like use the

table saw how to do this that we walk out of there and he's got this like little ramp he made and it's so sick dude and so anyway like I go online I'm like geeking out on this and they have like little railings like are of course ed's you know so I'm like gonna go back and like little tiny like bolts and drills I'm gonna be doing all that for him but uh yeah it just it looks cool is it a project that you your dad and your son are me my dad and my son wow that's so great it's a cool like three generations. Yeah, generation. Did you guys see the clip,

speaking of like woodworking and like that type of job? Did you see the clip I sent you guys about electricians? No. Oh, did you get to pull it up? I sent it to the mind pump, the three of the four of us.

Yeah, I know. We know. Text, thank you. It was an interview Sean Ryan did with, I don't know who it was. I thought it was a guy from dirty jobs at first,

but I think it's somebody else. Oh, micro? I thought it was him, but I think it's somebody else. He was breaking down like how behind we are on electricians. He was giving examples of like a couple of electricians that he was just with like that prior week

that are all like young, like early 20s, making like 250 a year. And they had been poached three times in the last year from other. What a great career to get into right now. Oh my God. Yeah. Supposedly we're like like 100,000 something like

if Doug could pull it up, the post. He talks about it is right there. Yeah, the trades are in such high demand. That's not micro, right? It looked like it.

No, it is micro. Oh, it is him. Okay. Yeah, okay. And he's, he's a big advocate for the trades and, you know, how school just like,

it's so weird that like we were so pushed into these, and they were wrong. Institutions. And now, yeah, completely. I have friends that work. I have friends that work in the space. So there's two replacements for every five retirements.

And so, oh, so it's just, we need, 400, thousand more electricians. Wow. And it's growing by the minute because for every five that retire... Because of the data

centers and stuff. That's what he's talking about. He's like the data centers are the demand for it is so high that we were under by 400,000 and for every five retired electricians, we have two replacing it. With the AI with the AI explosion, this is going

to be a very high paying job. Low supply. It already is? High demand. That's the point he's making is like it's, they're already, you got young, early electricians in their 20s making $2.50 a year, getting poached three times in a year. And what is the kind of education it requires to become an electrician? So you're at a high school.

You want to be an electrician. Do you just go? Oh, you have to go through a course. I think it's at least 18 months or longer. That's what I'm wondering. What does that look like to be an electrician? So you want to start working as one. I'm out of pocket.

I'm assuming there's an, there's a printer ship or something. Yeah. Print a ship and then you work your way up to tradesmen. Yeah. Journeyman. Yeah, so it's like you're probably, let's see, oh, what does that say there, Doug? High school diploma, cool. So four to five year paid apprenticeship.

Paid. Yeah. Versus going to college and paying for college. Yeah, exactly. Wow. So you get paid the whole time and then you come out and you make a crap ton of money. I also thought there was like a trade school. Yeah.

Is it like a two year? Six months to two years. Okay. I was kind of close. Would you need that or would the apprenticeship cover it? Apprenticeship usually, yeah. I think you get there faster, I think, again, speaking out of turn here. I think that if you go through the trade school, you get through that journeyman process faster, I think.

But they say a non-union contractor apprenticeship is the standard most valued route. Most value? Yeah, so it's roughly 2,000 hours of paid on the job training. Yeah. What is that? How many, how many, 2,000 hours would be? That's per year, yeah. I mean, that's probably 40 hours weeks for a year.

Yeah. 52 weeks, 40 hours, that's around 2000. Now, as far as blue collar is concerned, because that's considered a blue collar, is it like a really hard, rough job, or is it, is it, is it physically demanding for sure? It's very physically demanding. I've never worked with electricians.

My dad did everything but that. Oh, yeah. I would say plumbing is probably, yeah, more difficult. Yeah, yeah. Just because, yeah, the kind of tight places and underneath the house. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I don't,

it's definitely physically demanding for sure. Oh, okay. You know, hey, here's the deal. Like, fellas, I know, because back in the, you know what they used to do, they used to tell guys, this was our generation, you don't want to go work that kind of hardware. You want to sit at a desk. Actually, you don't.

That sucks. I think you're better off moving. Like, go out and move, dude. You're active all day long instead of like sitting there for sure. Part of that was also, because as an engineer, you can make a lot more money. As a computer engineer, you can make a ton of money. But where we're heading. is electricians are going to be up there in pay,

especially when you compare it to computer engineers, because AI is going to go take their jobs. It's writing code. So how true, okay, and this is conspiracy, so just brace yourself. Okay. Yeah, so now I, I, I, AI, the data centers, like,

so how, how true is it how much water they actually need? Because I've heard there's like, To cool them. There's, I heard there's a bit of a conspiracy with that. Like, they don't need that much water. Really? Yeah. I don't know.

I just, I just, I thought that was the reason why, Elon's trying to put them in space. Well, putting them in space covers two things. Power, because they direct solar 24-7, and then second is cooling because it doesn't need to take away powerful cooling. He was talking about, he was just on an interview and he said,

we are running headfirst into a power problem. Based on what Doug, just 300,000 to 5 million gallons of water per day. That's what it needs. For a large data center. For sure. That's insane. Yeah, so Midside uses about as much

as a thousand household. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, he was cool if we can use that. Because once you use the water to cool that, I'm assuming the water becomes warm, right, from that, it gets you transferred to warm all the pools in the United States. That's a brilliant idea.

Yeah, yeah. He was talking about how the problem we're going to run to is power. It's not processing. It's not, it's power. We're going to run into a power problem. We're not going to have enough power, which is, you know, why SpaceX probably is going to do so well. Yeah.

So hopefully my shares. Yeah. Right now they're up and down. Betting on it, I guess. But I'm betting on that for the next point of you. I mean, I'm not betting against you. I'm going to join you, but I'm just joining you in December. That's my decision.

Is that you doing? Yeah, I mean, based off of what I saw, I, listen, the behaviors around people, I think sometimes are almost more important than picking the stock, right? Sure. Pick the leader. Yeah, exactly, right. And so I think that when December is when the largest percentage of people who have, have shares in SpaceX will have the ability to cash out. And because they're going to make so much money.

But most of the shares are owned by him. They aren't selling out. No, no, sure, sure. But there's enough that it's going to dip. Yeah, should. It's going to dip. And so, you know, the question becomes, does it climb enough right in it between now and December that the dip is still higher than the way it opened?

Or I think it's going to bounce up and down all the way until December. Then we'll see a little dip and then we'll see a run. And then you'll jump. Yeah. No, I could be totally wrong. Don't take my stock advice. I've been wrong more often than not. So I'm warning you.

Don't take our advice on anything other than fitness. We're just having fun. Just a couple idiots talking on a podcast. You know what it is? I got some cool data from Caldera Lab on their eye serum. I know, Doug, you use the eye serum. I do on a daily basis. On a daily basis.

And so this one is good for, okay, so check out what they. They did a four-week clinical study on the eye serum. 78% so less visible dark surface. I did not know the eye serum was good for dark circles under the eyes. Oh, it brings the inflammation down right away. 75% less puffiness, 87% of the under eyes appeared smoother. You don't have to do the Chris Angel eye makeup anymore, dude. You know, it's got peptides in there, stem cell extracts, and it won best eye serum in the manual grooming awards.

You know, I got to use this one more. Yeah, I got to use this one more. I don't use it enough. So I don't. Do you put on night, Doug, or when you wake up? morning and night, personally. So I have a tendency towards really puffy eyes.

Yeah. And so I'm doing whatever I can to minimize that. But does everything. Yeah. He does all the face. I do it all. When you get old, I think this is when you get older, eyes get a little,

that's what's good. So I keep, I have the whole, I have all their stuff. It's right on my sink. But I talk about the, the three that I use most consistently. The eye serum is not one I use consistently,

but it is one I will use when I have like a poor night's sleep and I have like that eye puffiness. Because I have, I've seen, like, I can see visible difference, like, immediately. Oh, cool. So I keep it there. And it's just like, if I look, if I'm brushing my teeth in the morning, I'm like, oh, yeah, I look like shit.

Then I'll, then I'll do it. And I notice it. So, yeah, no, it works. You mentioned the eye, like, what, eyeliner or whatever. Yeah. There's one time I did that because I dressed up as a vampire. Yeah. And I did the eyeliner or whatever.

I bet just go went crazy. And I'm, I thought, I thought, I looked cool. Yes. I look like Adam. Yeah, he's stupid. Adam looks like an eyeliner. Okay. I can't even talk shit because, like, it.

You know, anybody who's ever even been in a band before? He's probably done that. Yeah, you're rock genre, bro. I was guilty of that for sure. Did you ever put it in? I don't remember if I probably did. Oh, he did. But probably, shut off.

Maybe. Hey, you know clearly as a man. That's why I admit it, but I don't remember the exact. I don't remember doing it. I don't remember putting mascara on. Maybe I did. Maybe. He's covered the basis.

Yeah. Pause. Maybe. No, I know for sure, because of my cousin used to live with us, She was like four years older than me. She got me a couple times. Like I put makeup on me, didn't.

I was like, I was a victim. I saw some old Halloween pictures. I forgot to tell you guys about this. My mom sends it to the group. And it was a picture of me and my siblings for Halloween. So this was probably 1989, probably, maybe 1990. So it's a long time ago, okay?

I was dressed as a woman. My sister was dressed as a man. And my brother was dressed as a woman. This was a Halloween costume back then. That was a common. That was a popular thing to do about it. It was a popular, like, what are you going to dress that about? I'm going to be a girl.

Yeah, yeah. Don't do that now. You cannot. One of my best friends is a girl, like she dressed up as like a hobo. Oh, yeah, I remember that. Oh, that was super common. That was super common when we were younger. You can't dress up with a hobo.

What do you guys think? A man. That's so. So, incessity. Hey, bro, that was so common. That was hell of common. Oh, like, dude. That was a 90s.

That was a 90s costume all the time. Super calm. Yeah, super calm. Now everybody dresses slutty. You know, it's like a huge difference. Wait, hold on. Can you even say hobo? You can't.

Hobo's insensitive. You can say it, but I don't know. I've been saying bum on the spot. It's like an old word now. Nobody uses it. What is it? What's the place? It is not, you can't even say homeless.

It's, uh, unhoused. Unhoused. Why do we keep changing words, dude? It's so dumb. Hey, what would you guys said you brought up Halloween costumes? What do you think? was your best Halloween costume you ever did. Oh, God.

Oh, God. Oh, you know what? Mine was as an adult. I was 18. I was a personal trainer. So I just became a personal trainer. And me and my buddy dressed up as Hans and Franz. Remember Hans and Franz?

Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. And everybody loved it. That's why I was one of my best. Sure. And then I had a costume when I was a kid. My mom used to make my costumes when I was little

because we didn't have the money to buy them. Same. So back in those days, in the 80s, if you bought a costume, it was plastic. They didn't have nice... Now you have nice costumes for kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But when you were a kid, you went to the grocery store, and it was literally a plastic apron that you would wear and a plastic mask that would just, you would sweat... It would just, that rubber band holding it. So my mom made me a costume. She made me a robot,

and she took boxes and covered them in foil and put them on me. Yeah, sick. So that's, yeah, that's... Yeah, that's... Yeah, so before Stranger Things, like, you know, like, you know, like, I was a ghostbuster with my friend,

And same thing. My mom made the whole costume. So I had like a vacuum hose that went down to like connect to this like huge shoebox with like a flashlight. Oh, that's cool. But I mean, that wasn't my favorite. That was like cool for for that time. But like it's funny because my favorite my personal favorite one was, you know, Johnny from a karate kid. But then it, but then they got their own series and everybody's like, oh, yeah.

You know, but when I first did it, it was like everybody loved, you know, uh, Daniel. Daniel. Nobody was Johnny. Nobody was. Was my house the first house you wore that too? Or did you wear that before? Oh, you wore it before. Oh, you were before that.

You recycled that a few times then. I have. Probably about four or five times. I was going to say, I thought my house, I thought my house party was the first time you ever wore it. Yeah, I don't know why.

Because I remember I came in, I was like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah. That was awesome back thing. Because that was a long time. That was 20 years ago. I got to say Ultimate Warrior for you, right? You know?

I saw that picture. I've had some good ones, bro. I did slash. I was pretty good. Now, this is an adult. Oh, yeah, I wasn't like my kid. When you were a kid, what were you? Okay.

I mean, I can't even remember a lot of my kid in costumes. They weren't very good. Yeah. I got into Halloween later. So my kid costumes, I can't even. I heard of this one back. I remember I was a devil. My mom dressed me up as one time.

But I don't, yeah, I don't remember. Do you remember how dangerous, like, well, considered today, by today's standards. We did risky things as kids. When I was a kid, we would get a, we would get a pillow sack. That's what we used to put our candy. And we'd be gone forever. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Forever walking all over the place, all like miles. And we come home when we were done with a pillow sack full of candy, and there were no limits. My mom wasn't like, eat five and then save the rest. We'd go in our room and just eat until we got diabetes. I think Doug's Uncle Billy was one of the best. Baby Billy. Baby Billy. Yeah, baby Billy.

When you were a kid, what was Halloween like, Doug? Well, yeah. So very similar. If you got the plastic costume, if you want to be Batman or whatever. But I mostly made up my own costumes like pirates and other things like that. But one of my favorite ones after that, as I got a little older, was Indiana Jones. Oh. Yeah.

I had the whole thing. I had the hat. Better than Baby Billy? I mean, I had everything. I had a bull whip. I had the whole nine yards. I thought Baby Billy was. But Baby Billy was unique.

Very unique. It was unique. And also, I think what makes a great costume is like when it, like, you looked the part. Like, you really, like, there's no, like, one of the best is. Like when you're like, oh my God, that's a character. And it's a unique character, right? So it's not like a Batman, Superman. That's like kind of generic.

But it's like, you're like a stunt double. Exactly. A character you're like, oh my God, that is so. Some of the best costumes are when couples dressed together. Yeah. And it goes together. I did peanut butter jelly with a girlfriend one time. Did you?

You know what I saw? Which I've seen now since. Was it jelly first? You know what I saw a long time ago, which now I've seen done before. But a long time ago is probably, I want to say in the late 90s, A boyfriend and girlfriend dressed up as a plug and an outlet. Yeah. I've seen that.

Yeah. And then they plug in and turn on. I've seen that. Which was like brilliant. I've seen all kinds of. Yeah. I've seen all kinds of ones. Yeah, those are, those are good like that.

But yeah, I think I think Doug's was one of, one of my favorites. Whenever you see somebody like, yeah. See, now you see it. See it more common. She has two plugs. What's going on? Thanks. Thanks, Justin.

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Go to drink elemente.com slash mind pump. Here comes a show. Our first caller is Jason from California. What's up, Jason? What's up, Jason? What's up, Jason? What's happening, man. Hey guys, crazy to be here.

My name is Jason, as we just said. I am 37 years old. I am a firefighter paramedic here in Southern California. And the reason for my call is I've had some major life changes recently. But before that, I've been a fitness fanatic for a long time. I love string training. I love weightlifting. My numbers before my accident were like I was able to squat 385,

deadlift 315, bench 285. So they weren't crazy, but they were good. of it. But since then, about two and a half months ago, I was in a major car accident, totaled my car. I have a broken left clavicle, a right 10th rib, a broken C7, T6778, a torn PCL and MCL on my left knee. So with all that, I have obviously been able to not work out as I want to. And I'm looking for advice on what I can do, what I shouldn't do. I am pre-surgery. I am scheduled to have surgery probably in the next month or so. So I'm doing a pre-hab with PT, but that's focused solely on my leg. So I want to know, should I be doing anything

upper body? Can I be doing anything about upper body? And what shouldn't I do? Were you hit by a semi? Yeah. That was a bad accident. I ran through a wall. Holy cow. Oh, shit. Really? Hey, man. Thank God. Thank God you. Thank God you're still here, brother. And so, all right, tell me about, so the surgeries for the for the knee? Yes. PCL reconstruction, I believe we're going to do. I have a follow-up appointment with my surgeon next week. We're going to discuss that, but that's what it should be.

And then I'm going to be non-weight bearing for four to six weeks. And then I won't be able to return to work for nine to 12 months after that. I'm off work now, but I'm going to be off for a very long time. Got it. And are you just at this, you know, side note, you're working with someone who's going to do like more of an athletic procedure? Because there are ways to repair a knee that is like average person and then like athletes. Have you had that discussion? Is that,

uh, yeah, he's the former like orthosurgeon for the Lakers. Oh, you're good. Oh, nice. Good. And then with the,

the C7, T6, T7, like, uh, anything, did anything have to get done there? Are they healed? What does that look like?

No, there's going to be no surgery with that. Uh, the only surgery that I'm going to have is for the knee. Uh, the clapical is healing itself. The, the spine is healing itself.

They were kind of like micro fractures. Um, but like, still when I, like, lay down and try to do leg lifts, I can feel it on my like mid spine basically. So it's still healing.

So I'm trying to be very cautious. I don't want to hinder my progress, but I want to promote my progress essentially. And I love working out. I love strength training. And it's been like, I go through like depression stuff with everything. But like particularly being off work and not being able to work out,

which was a huge mental like relief for me. Yeah, no, dude. This is a tough one to answer because of all of the injuries and because it's only two months out. Yeah, you're so close to surgery. You know, but you do have a history of strength training. and you kind of know what your body should feel like, what good pain feels like, what bad pain kind of feels like. So without me actually training you,

because if we were in person and I trained you, I would watch you move, and then that would help me dictate. Yeah, limitations. That would help me dictate what to do, you know, with you each time. So the best advice I could give you, Jason, is you've got to go real easy.

You focus on the basics, and you're not going in for a workout. You're going in for stability and range of motion. Stimulus. So an example of that would be like, you know, I'm doing a row and, oh boy, like, I got to stop right here because I feel like if I go a little further, it feels unstable. So now what you're going to do is you're going to play with that range of motion. That's the way that you're going to get stronger, not adding weight to the bar or to the cable. Can I ask you this since you mentioned rows?

Yes. Is the 10th rib attached to the lap? Ooh, that's a good question. We need to look that up. Because that is still healing. Like, when I take a deep breath, I still feel it even two and a half months out. Okay, that could be intercostal that you might be feeling. But I'm not sure if it's attached to the lap.

We'll look that up and see if that's the case. Nonetheless, yeah, nonetheless, what I would do if I were you is I would try an exercise and I'd see how it felt. And if, like I said, because you have extensive history of strength training, you know what it feels like when there's good pain. you also know when something feels wrong. And so what you're going to do is you're going to play within that... Gradually approach that threshold. That's right. Honestly, like, isometric...

Just going to say, go that way. ...is is probably your safest, most effective bet in terms of, like, preserving muscle. Yeah. And still being able to get that stimulus. Let's use that example. So the 10th rib does connect there, right? So it is connected. It's a 9th through 12th ribs.

So let's say... So obviously, that would be high risk to do, like, some barbell rows. but what but can you take your arms and create that that row right with your arms and then create an isometric in that position like this is a great so i my my rule of thumb with you of i was training would be always default to isometric and tempo as the way to progress intensity not more weight more reps so it's like hey i can see i know that that that's a high risk area so i don't want to go barbell row but i can i do this with my arms okay i could do that and intensity squeeze can i flex and squeeze and make that like, yeah, that feels okay. Then you find your limit that way. That's right. S safer. And then maybe I grab a really light row and then I row and then again, that still feels

pretty good. I'm going to intensify that squeeze. Like, I'm going to do that instead of just keep adding weight all the time, which is what we tend to do. Bands are great, too, to really, like, limit a lot of the impact. So, you know, that's something like physical therapy that use it all time. But it's really just, you know, gradually getting in position, you know, intensifying it with tension, holding it and just like fueling your way through it so you don't like exceed that

threshold. Yeah. So here's a couple things to consider, which I don't need to tell you, but just kind of bring them again to the surface. You're two months out from those injuries. So that's a strong consideration. You mentioned depression. Okay. That's tough. In fact, that would be the number one thing that I would focus on. I would not focus on building muscle and strength and improving performance. I would focus on movement to make me feel better. And so it could also look like more general movement and less specific. I don't know how you feel about doing movement in a swimming pool. But it's one of the best ways to exercise when you're healing from something just because of the support and the buoyancy.

It's low impact. Right. So the antidepressant effects from exercise, there's lots of reasons why it helps us feel better. But one of them is just movement. And so it's really depressing and not be able to move. So if you can get into a pool and kind of exercise vigorously in there because it feels relatively safe, that would be a great way to help you feel better. And that could be a daily thing. Unfortunately with that, I can't do it to my clavicle.

And my knee is super unstable, like the side to side motion, any instability. Like if I'm not on a flat surface, it just like knocks and comes out of place. Oh, yeah. So unfortunately, I've tried that, but it's a no-go. and then Adam referring to what you were saying about like you know the isometrics and that hold. So I, to talk more on that, I am not doing anything left arm. And that leads me to another question I don't know if I asked. Like should I be doing things with just my right arm?

Like my workout routine right now is just like I'll do one exercise per body part every day or so when I can. And I'll just do like shoulder presses and then shrugs and I'll like move my weight down my body. I know that I'm getting unequal. right now, and I know that your answer is going to be the symmetry afterwards, which I already have. But should I be doing that, or should I, like, kind of a radiation effect you'll get from

that, which actually will translate over to your other side, so you will be able to preserve somewhat of muscle there as well, just by working that one side. Yeah, Jason, you can even look these studies up. They're really interesting, where they'll immobilize one limb, and they'll have groups of people. One group

does nothing. The other group exercises the free arm or free leg. exercising the other side actually minimizes muscle loss and atrophy in the limb that's immobilized. Like the stomach effect kind of thing. Correct. Correct. So I know that the logic is like, oh, I better not do anything because then I'm going to create more of an imbalance. But it actually helps to exercise.

So you're doing the right thing. Physical therapy, your therapist, because they're working with you directly, is going to give you a much more specific advice and what you can do. And you're two months out, bro. That's a big deal. Yeah, we got to calm down a little bit. Yeah, take it easy. what I hear from you is, I don't know how long you've been listening to this show, but if you've been, six years. Okay, so I don't know if you're, it was around that time. If you remember when I came off of testosterone and I went through a little bit of depression because I was trying to get my levels up naturally. And then right after that I tore my Achilles. And boy, it just, it like ripped my heart out. It was already bad enough. My testosterone levels were tanked. Then I, then I, then I started a basketball out of nowhere. Yes. Yes. It's totally stupid. Yes. Right. And I share this story.

because how much it beat me up on the depression side of not of not like I was forced to slow down because my I couldn't do that and so uh the advice I'm going to lean into with you because you don't seem like the type of person that I'm worried about being lazy I'm more worried about you doing too much too soon too fast something that helped me during that time was actually reviving some other hobbies in my life that I hadn't done in a long time that whether that's music listening to Lego types of stuff. stuff, like what at reading? Like, try and draw back to some things that you're passionate about, that you love, that it doesn't require a lot of your body. I know this is not the advice you're calling in for right now, but just being somebody who's been there.

It helped me through that time, because if you're constantly focused on the body getting better and you're frustrated because you're not, that's where you have the tendency to push versus leaning into something else that gives you, that you enjoy, that you love. And it's like,

oh, you know what, I have, I can't do the training and the, time, the movement I was doing before as much. So that extra time, I'm going to do something else that I enjoy that I haven't done in a long time that maybe has been replaced by exercise or being busy with life. I would lean into something like that.

I don't know what that is for you. But that helped me during that time of recovery and getting back to be patient and not rush it. So that's kind of the advice. Are you using any peptides or are you plan on using any? I'm on Wolverine's tech. Nice. Nice.

Good, good. Yeah. Yeah. And you guys are 100% right. I am I am all in or nothing at all. Yeah, yeah. I hear that. And it's been tough because I have picked up those old hobbies.

Like Justin, I'm a musician. I've been picking up the guitar and doing all that stuff. But I still like daily want to go work out. So it's a struggle that I need to figure out on my own. I know you can't give me any advice on that. But like, yeah, I hear you. And I appreciate the reiterated advice. Yeah, bro, that's super tough.

Just if I can ask you kind of a personal question about You're a firefighter paramedic. Was it your buddies that came to grab you in that situation? Were you in your same jurisdiction? No, it was a different department. And I didn't know anybody there. It was like two and a half hours away from home. Okay.

It was in Lancaster, if you know where that is. And I'm in like Orange County. How did you go through the wall? How did that happen? I fell asleep at the wheel. Oh, crap. Was it late at night or did you just long work? Yeah, so I was out there to visit a friend and I worked the next day.

It was around midnight. I started driving home. And I was like, I'm too tired for this. I booked the hotel room, paid for it, started heading there. And on the way, just fell asleep and missed. No way. You even had the whereabouts to book the hotel and you didn't make it to the hotel. Damn, bro.

You must have been tired. That's tough, dude. I mean, like, so I'm recently separated four months ago from my fiancee at the time. And so I was just working, working, working day off, going to see friends, going to do whatever. I was just overstimulated. I did it to myself 100%. Oh, bro. You got good friends surrounding you?

I do. I have a great support system. My work union has been great. My friends have been great. I'm going out to dinner with my crew tonight. So it's a, it's a great thing. Jason, you ever up here in Northern California? Yeah. Come up? No, not really. But why? You want to come up and come sit in a live episode? Hang out a little bit. Yeah, if you ever got time to come up this way. We're in San Jose. I would love to. I would love to. I got all the time in the world. I'll have my assistant reach out. Yeah, yeah. Book a time up. here, come visit, say hi, hang out for the day. We'll play Legis. Let's see. But yeah, keep leading into that stuff because you're not somebody, you're going to get back, bro. You're going to heal.

You're going to, about muscle memories incredible for somebody who's been working out with life. It'll all come back, dude. So just be patient with it. And everything I'm hearing from you, I relate to, you're more likely to hurt yourself going too fast too soon than you are to not do anything, be lazy and become this fat guy who never works out later on. You'll be fine.

You're going to be fine. Oh, I have had some major body composition. I'm sure. I get it. I get it. I'm like 10 pounds heavier and lost all the muscles. Yeah, yeah. It'll come back though, bro.

You must have a 10 of muscle. You still got some, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll all come back. It's lighting. Yeah. Cool. You'll be good.

All right, dude. We'll schedule you coming up here and you can hang out in an episode. Thank you. I appreciate all your advice. All right, brother. Thank you. That's crazy. Yeah.

Well, you think, too, that you knew. What's crazy is this is two months later. Because those are major injuries, dude. Yeah, huge. And he's asking about exercise. It's like, bro, this is two months out. And he's on the Wolverine stack. What do we say to everybody about this?

Like, that's the negative part of that stack is it so effective. You feel, that's why he's where he's out right. He's like, hey, I feel good. Yeah. And so. I was just wondering what it's like to be the person to save people and then to be in that position where people are saving you. That's got to be such an interesting.

Yeah, but do you think, I mean, he's so out. He has to be out of it. Yeah, but just to know, like, you're on the other end of it and know what that happened. He's probably more aware of how lucky he is than anything. I mean, it's super humbling. Yeah, yeah. Our next caller is Shannon from Washington.

Hi, Shannon. How you doing, Shannon? Hi, guys. How's it going? Great. How are you? Good, thanks. Okay, I'm going to read off my notes here a little bit on the side.

I'm so excited. My heart's just beating. Thank you. Okay. So I'm a fairly new listener, actually. I was previously really into the health and longevity stuff and listening to mostly that. I even became a nutritional therapy practitioner.

Haven't started practice, but got certified in that. Started listening to you guys at the beginning of this year when I transferred into the trainer position at Planet Fitness. Don't laugh. I have three questions today, if that's okay, one about carbs, one about glute growth, and also what next? But first, just a little background.

I'm almost 62 years young. I'm 5-5-1-18-to-120-20 pounds, about 18% body fat. I've stayed within 5 pounds of this weight for over 10 years after gaining and losing 10 to 20 pounds over and over and over again. Literally lost hundreds of pounds over my lifetime. I've made the commitment to myself that I'll continue strength training and eating healthy for life. I'm pretty happy with my physique, but also, look at my body as a sculpting project, so it's fun to kind of focus and fine tune where I can, trying to keep it interesting. I like to have the look of a figure and physique competitor.

My upper body's probably, you know, probably there, but the lower body's not. As far as occupation, I'm working four days a week right now at Planet Fitness as a trainer. I also working on building my own business around nutrition and writing an e-book. And I also spent a lot of time helping my 94-year-old mother who's still living on their own. As far as nutrition, my diets evolved a lot. It went from the low fat. I was the fat-free queen to paleo to keto and intermittent fasting and, you know, just the whole health longevity stuff. Once I started focusing on health and longevity rather than weight loss, my body fat finally melted off. I have a rhythm to how I eat, building my meals around 30 to 50 grams of protein. I'm obsessed with protein knowing that I need

more at my age. And also, since I'm lean and wanting to maintain and gain muscle, what finally worked for me was just really simplifying things. I'm mostly animal protein, non-starchy veggies, healthy fats, plus Greek yogurt, cottage cheese, protein powders and little fruit. Excuse me. I don't normally track calories or macros, but I've been tracking for the last couple weeks because I knew you guys would ask. I'm averaging roughly, I know I shouldn't say this, 1,500 to 1,900 calories, but there are some higher days that I didn't track. So if I, you know, go out or there's a family function, I just, you know, I go at it, but I don't try to track it. So there's a few days of those in there. My proteins actually,

usually 170 to 200 grams. I know that's a lot, but love my proteins. My carbs are landing around 60 to 180, depending on if I have popcorn. And fats usually around 60 to 100. Actually, through tracking, I realized I'm eating more carbs than I thought I was. They're mostly, though, from my little treats like my sugar-free fudge sickles at night and my popcorn that I kind of have purposely been adding just to be. bring up carbs a little bit.

A little bit of a training background. I started lifting in the early 80s, inspired by Rachel McClish, Corey Everson, Flex Magazine. Miss Olympia, first one. Yeah, they were just beautiful. I was obsessed with that luck and all that. Anyway, and then starting in 2007, I started working out with home fitness programs. You guys probably know the ones. I did those for 18 years and was a coach with that company.

And then in, let's see. And then at 50, I actually did a figure in physique competition just to kind of ring in the 50th, 50th birthday and did well in that. And that was all just training at home. Dumbbells in a bench. What else? For the last year, I've been working four days a week at Planet Fitness and do all my lifting during my breaks. So I have a 10-minute break, a 30-minute break, and another 10-minute break. and another 10-minute break.

So I've just been fitting my workouts in during that. That's awesome. And I've been doing an upper-lower split with the shoulder and glute focus. So using mostly dumbbells and cables. When I saw that you guys had just released something similar, I'm like, oh, that really piqued my interest. So I've been curious about that. I'm also been working on pull-ups just because it's a fun goal.

For my 61st birthday, I was able to do 12. But then I slacked off a little bit. bit due to elbow pain. Now I'm back at it currently averaging five to seven, but working my way back up to 10th for my 60 second birthday. I'm not a big cardio person. I only run if someone's chasing me. I lift a build and sculpt muscle and use my diet to keep the body fat down. I'm pretty sedentary, though, on my three home days, Wednesdays and weekends. I'm mostly on the computer, working on my business or helping my mom. But I'm trying to get better at adding in some walking. And I know I should really be adding some mobility. So to the questions. For glutes, despite focusing on glutes twice a week,

I don't feel like I'm getting the growth I should. The main movements are the Smith Machine hip thrusts. When I can get on at the Smith Machine at the gym is really hard to get on. Bulgarian split squats. I do every time. And depending on what's available that day, I'll do hanging dumbbell sumos, cable step downs, cable kickbacks, and 45-degree hypers. I know that training right there could probably be refined much better, but that's just what I'm currently doing. Sometimes I'll do the dumbbells, but I have a lot of elbow pain if I do any, if I'm

holding anything over 35 pounds. for dumbbells. So I kind of started backing off on those. And I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I don't, I'm not currently doing any squats, leg press. And even though I actually have a squat rack at home that's barely ever been used. Long story, but I bought it on accident a long time ago. But then when I was doing all those home fitness programs, they were just dumbbells, you know. So I didn't, wasn't using it then. So I have that available. Am I missing something obvious?

What would you change? Yes. You want the obvious answer? Yeah. First of all, let me ask this. Do you love the sculpting and shaping thing? Yes. You like, okay, so so do I.

I love that. Yeah. You have to let me put some clay on. I know. I knew you're going to say that. Well, yeah, I just, you, this isn't a, even though we can get into squatting and we get into some movements and we could have, we could critique.

the exercise selection, that that's not the problem here. You have to allow me, if you maintain the leanness that you've maintained for 10 years, it's because majority of time, you're in a deficit. Only a small amount of time are you ever in a slight surplus, and that is not enough to add more size to your glutes. It's impossible. It's impossible. So I would, you need to let me get you comfortable with adding body fat,

for a period of time so I could build the glute so I can then carve away and sculpt and show you what you want. I don't think you're surprised at what Adam's saying because when you mentioned the calories, you kind of stopped and you're like, I know. Can I add something on that though? Yeah. Normally, there is quite a fluctuation in there because like I said, I help my mom a lot. I go over there. She's got a mixed nut jar that I cannot stay out of. One day I calculated it. I I ate like 1,200 calories of nuts. Yeah. She also has chocolates and Oreos, which I was starting to have a problem with.

I finally had to quit sugar to get myself to stop. I'm going to stop you. Okay. You're 18% body fat. Yeah. So even if you have, you're too lean to build any muscle. Even if you, even if you have these periodic days that you have extra 1,000 calories, that's my point.

95% of the time you're in a deficit. 5% you have these thousand. thousand calorie, nut, chocolate, whatever things. That is not enough for the bill. I'm going to tell you something right now. Super simple. The solution for what you want is super simple. Everything you're saying as you're talking,

you're giving us all this information, and it's very glaring. It's not your workout. It's not your workout. It's very glaring what you need to do. So the advice I'm going to give you is going to be life changing. It's going to be super simple,

but it's going to be the most difficult thing you ever did because you're afraid. of eating more. You're afraid of eating more, hon. You guys, I didn't even want to call because I knew you're going to say that. Let me negotiate. There's no negotiation.

It's either you want to or you don't. So it's like, how bad? Listen, it's night and day. Well, here's something that I've always been so, like, rabbit-hoeing and curious about. And I love being lean. And I know that I could get better gains. Like, I have to decide which is more important.

Right. Yeah, but the options are, you're creating a false, the false dichotomy. That's right. It's not be lean and be fat. It's be too lean and be lean with muscle, which by the way, I'm going to tell you something. Here's what else is going to happen. It's a much more comfortable. You're going to have less pain.

Yeah. You're going to have more energy. You're going to have more vitality. And you're going to look better. Longevity. You're going to look better. You're going to feel healthier. You're going to be like, oh, my God, this is life changing.

But you've got to get through the scary part. Your calories are way too low. Way too low. The temporary, the thing I want you to get comfortable with is only of being fluffy, which will feel that way for you. Everybody else in the world would go, oh, my God, she looks amazing. She doesn't like, but for you, I know you'll feel, you'll feel, oh, my God, my waist has gone up. Oh, I can't see my abs the same way.

I saw my, like, you'll feel all that way, but I'll be like, we're packing the clay on right now, relax. I'm going to get this metabolism up. We're going to build this ass. And then we're going to carve it down. Then you're going to be lean and ripped again. You'll be eating more calories and you're going to have more. booty than you had before.

So you won't, you gotta feed the booty. That's right. You're also going to have less pain. It's hungry. Part of the reason why your elbow bothered you, you'll get these occasions because your calories are so low. Yeah. Yeah.

Let me ask something though that I've always been curious about. Is there a way to zigzag the calories around your workout days and still have like high calorie days and lower calorie days? Wrong question. They'll try to keep you in maintenance. Wrong question for you. This is very simple, hon. I'm telling you like exactly what you need to do.

The challenge is going to be whether or not you're going to do it. I know. So you've got to let go for a second. So here's a deal, okay? Because you remind me of so many trainers I've worked with. You're obviously a fitness fanatic. So I know what the challenge is like. Either you're going to try to do this on your own or you should, I think you should work with a coach.

Not because you don't know what to do, but because you're not going to do it. Yeah. And a coach is going to reverse die at you. And probably by month two or three, you'll be bought in. Yeah, they'll get you at your comfort zone. First 30, 60 days, you're going to be a lot of freaking out. by month two or three, you're going to be like, what is going on? I feel amazing.

I cannot believe how strong I am. Oh, my God, it looked great. I wish I did this before is what's going to happen about month two or three. Yeah. Scary. No, I would love to do that at some point right now. It's just not an option for me. Okay.

Are you listening to the journey that I'm doing with Karen right now? How often do you listen? I've been listening, but I haven't heard much. on that lately. Yes. Unless you're doing it someplace else, but I've been staying up to date on your podcast. It'd be worth your while to get in her muscle mommy group. So at least you are communicating with her on a weekly basis.

So that's, I'd love that. Yeah, I think that would be a great place. I can have Doug send you a link to get in there. Off the top of my head, your calories need to be. Yeah. Never lower than 2,000, probably around 2,500. Yeah.

On average. Not sometimes. But we had to get, we had, just like Karen, I had to stare, step her to that point. So we'd coach would stare step you up 200 calories every other week or so until you get to a place like that. But at the end of the day, like this is a, this is a very easy answer. It's very difficult to do. Right. And just my biggest, you know, pushback on that has been that I didn't want to take the time. I didn't want to start tracking calories again. I've always hated doing that. I will admit doing it the last couple weeks. I'm going, okay, this isn't that.

you kind of get in the groove of it and it's okay. It's tricky. Just I've fallen into such an easy pattern of eating that I love and I just know that I just need to add to it. Here's another question in adding calories. So, you know, the next thing I was going to talk about was carbs is, is it okay to have more of my calories with fats? Like I love my cheese, my butter. Absolutely. In fact, I think you need to.

If you're eating 170 grams of protein and 1,500 calories, you're eating boiled chicken bread. talapia and protein shakes. No, I'm eating all of it. I'm eating steak and ground beef. Like, I'm not, I'm not that the eater that's trying to lose weight anymore. I eat lots of this stuff. Like, I love my fats. I love my meats.

I love all of it. It's just that the calories aren't always adding up, especially because on my work days, since I lift during my breaks, I pack like, I pack a shake that has just, protein and collagen and creatine. I bring a yogurt smoothie bowl with protein powder in it and sometimes a little bit of olive oil in it. A couple string cheeses in an apple. Like I have to do stuff that I can just sneakily eat because I'm using my brakes to lift. No, that's great.

But something's not adding up, Shannon. So can you give me the macros on those days you were tracking? Because 170 grams of protein and 15 hurt calories, you can't, there's not possible. There's a lot of fat in there. Yeah. On those days when I'm at work, there's not as much fat. I do eat a couple string cheeses on those days. Can you tell me what those macros look like, proteins, fats, and carbs?

Let's see. Thanks. On let me look at Monday. That was a different. So on Monday, which was a workday, I did 1,620 calories, 165 grams of protein, 44 fat, 179. You're not eating ground beef. You're not eating rib-eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, that one was, okay, then yesterday I had taco salads with ground beef. So that one was yesterday was also a work day. It was 1,800 calories, 1880, 175 grams of protein, 97 grams of fat, 104 grams of carbs. You should be no lower than 80 to 90 grams. Yeah, yeah. You don't want a 40 gram fat day. That is not going to support. We don't ever want to go lower than 60.

That's not going to support your skin, hair, nails, hormones, your nerves. Yeah. Yeah. You got to bump your calories. calories on. That's going to be really scary for you, but you're going to feel so good when you do it. You're going to build muscle. You're going to get really strong very quickly, but you've got to bump your calories are way too low. And walking around, I'm telling us right now, for a woman to walk around and maintain 18 percent, you're sacrificing longevity. Well, yeah, you're in,

you're in a deficit. You're catabolic most of the time. An ideal, a healthy, very small fraction of time, you're hitting maintenance to a slight surplus. Lunge. Most of the time, you're in a, you're catabolic. That's why we're not building. Right. And longevity body fat percentages for active women, typically are in the low 20s, not below 20. 18%. I've been hearing you guys say that. I was hesitant even call. But now that I'm on the roll tracking, I'll continue tracking. And you said it doesn't really matter whether it's fat or carbs. No, whichever one you like. I definitely don't want your fat going below 80 though, because that's essential. 44, you missed essential fat there. Yeah, and I usually try to, I'm usually better about adding it in. And our dinners, when we actually do the dinners together, there's always like broccoli with butter and there's always, you know, a meat.

And I do cheese quite a bit. Yeah. Well, look, I'm going to tell you, I know it's really hard. I'm going to challenge what you said about the way I love to eat this way because I don't think you do. I think you think you do. But when you experience what it feels like to fuel yourself, it's very different. It's very, very different. The nutrition that you're having now is a relationship that is not serving you.

But it feels like it is because it feels very control. Well, it's simple. And so what I tend to get very focused on stuff. And right now I need to focus on building my business. And I get afraid of because I will get tunnel vision. You know, that's why I didn't want to compete again. Like I just get tunnel vision and, you know, pushing. other stuff aside. And I need to be focusing on the business and stuff. But I know I can do both

if I'm careful about it. But I just didn't want to spend a ton of time preparing food. And you don't, you actually don't, Shannon, you don't have to be that careful. Okay. You are, you are so low body fat percentage that we can get away with not tracking like crazy and go have the five guys. Go, I, you can get away with that. I'm going to say to you, that's what I said to Karen two days ago when we sat down and met. So I've continued to push her up. 12 to 15 pounds heavier than she's ever been right now. And she's asking, what are we doing this week? And I said, I want you to add 200 more calories.

And the look on her face when I say that to her. And the thing that I said to her and remind her is like, you have already proven you know how to get lean and shredded. That is easy for you. It is hard for you to get bigger, fluffier. Like, that's the work. So what I'm asking you to do is to do the work, do that. And don't worry about what it looks like, feels like,

because you can come back anytime. It's so easy for you to rain it in, tighten up, and get lean. You've proven that. You're 60-some years old and you're shredded. You have proven you can do that. At the highest level, you've competed. Same thing with her is like you,

what, like stop worrying about that. We can go get that anytime we want. Let's put the work in on adding and building and pushing calories. And guess what? If you push a little too far one week, so what? Push a little harder next week. because I know I can turn the two of you, the other direction, real quick, real easy. I'm going to tell you, you add 500 calories consistently to your diet.

You're going to have more energy and more motivation for building your business. Your body is running on fumes. Yeah, I'm excited to bring back. I had to take nuts and nut butters out of the house because I couldn't control myself. So that will be a fun way to add some calories. Yeah, get them in. You know what? Here's what we're going to do because I don't have a ton of confidence you're going to follow what we say.

So here's what we're going to do. Here comes the accountability. I'm going to have you come back on in 60 days. All right. And in 60 days, we're going to have a conversation and see where you're at with it all. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And as far as carbs around the workouts, are carbs that important? Like, do I need to start packing more than my apple and stuff? I think the higher calories will make you feel amazing. You can play with the carbs and see how it fuels your workouts. Yeah. Carbs are not essential. So.

you're getting, you know, you're getting some. But sometimes, listen, I have people who kind of go low carb all the time. I bump their carbs up and they just feel amazing. So base it off of how you feel. One time I played around with blending cooked sweet potato into my yogurt protein smoothie bowl and maybe I could do that to have a lot of carb during the day. I have to like just quickly scarf my food though. No one's looking. We'll see you in 60 days. 60 days. Bump those calories. You will build your butt. You will build everything. And then also just looking for recommendations on what next. Should I stick with the upper lower split like that?

I'm not worried about your program. I mean, I can send you one of mine, but I think what you're doing is perfectly fine. This is not a program thing. This is all just too little nutrition, two little nutrients. But I can send you a program. If you want muscle mommy,

I can send you up or lower. That's what she's the four day. The four day split we just wrote, right? Yeah, that would be awesome. We'll send you that one. Yeah, we'll send you that one. Thank you so much, you guys. You got it.

We'll see you in 60 days. That's right. All right. I see you super fluffy. 20 pounds. Stop, dude. What are you doing,

bro? I want to see you eating on this next call. All right, all right. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

That's a, there's a lot of denial going on. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, I love eating this way.

Oh, boy. It's like, this is a terrible example or comparison, but it's like, yeah, my boyfriend, you know,

sometimes he gets mad and, you know, he throws things at me and hit me. Well, why don't you leave? I love him. Yeah,

I don't think you love them. I think you're in an abusive relationship right now. Well, the math didn't add up either when you're doing the 100. How many? No. I was like, wait a second. That should be well. Straight up.

And I hope she watches this because she can take it. And I've worked with people like her. She's withholding information. She probably doesn't want to hear her. She knows what the right advice is. She doesn't want to hear it. Yeah. But the truth is, listen, if you watch this, Shannon, if you can you just do it.

Just do what we say. For 30 days, it will change your life. But it will be so scary. It'll be so scary. to consistently eat more. But oh my God, you want to talk about muscle and strength and energy,

pain in her email, there's things she shouldn't talk about here, but she has areas that hurt and she's trying to wonder what's going on. What's happening is you're just underfed. Yeah, yeah. And you're trailingle and pain is one of the other side effects. She's catabolic.

She's catabolic. That's right. 90% of time she's catabolic. And so, yeah, her body's breaking down most of the time. And you should not live at 18% body fat. As a woman, you don't live there. Especially as we age.

especially as you age. Yeah. Something, if she has something catastrophic happened and she needs to like be hospitalized, that's going to be tough. Yeah. It's not going to be able to support her. Right.

Our next caller is Jennifer from South Carolina. Hi, Jennifer. Hi, Jennifer. Hey, hi, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call. How can I help you? Yeah, I'm just going to read directly from my email so I don't stray off course, okay?

No worries, yeah. All right. I'm 52 years old. I'm 5-5. I was introduced to your show about seven months ago. Your first few podcasts I listened to made me aware that everything I did in my workout routine was everything you say not to do. I have since listened to your show and I've gained so much knowledge. A little background.

I have been in the gym since I was 16. I've always had a competitive mindset. I started swimming at age seven and was a top competitive swimmer in the Summer League races. I started running in middle school, which led into road biking and then eventually into triathlons. I ran cross-country and track in high school. I got into mountain biking, participated in some adventure races and triathlons. I've always been conscious about my size, and that has a lot to do with my hard work and dedication to being healthy. The problem for me is that my weight never goes down.

It seems the harder I work, the bigger I get. And it is very frustrating. As I got older, the mentality was more is better in the gym and less is more in the diet. Since listening to your show, I've had a lot of mental rewerewerewere. firing. The first program I ran was MAPS ANA, excuse me, anabolic, and that was a mental challenge because it went against everything I thought to be true. I started tracking my calories and became more aware of my protein. I had a few months in the concierge program, but I had to let that go for financial reasons. I've since done power lift and muscle mommy and just started up or lower.

My calories have been between 21 and 2200 for about six months with protein around 170, and my steps are 8 to 10. I still like to swim at least once a week. My sleep is seven to eight hours a night. My energy levels are good. The scale has only gone up about three or five pounds since upping my calories to the 21-22. I meal prep all my meals and stick to whole foods. My lifts are constantly getting stronger. I have attached my deck scam for you. I just had that done recently. I didn't know if that was something you guys could take a look at without revealing any numbers. I had my RMR done, which was 1449. My lab values are all within normal. I'm on hormone replacement for estrogen only. So my problem is not due to any lack of dedication in the gym. I love

working out and lifting. The problem is that my body refuses to go down on the scale and my clothing size refuses to go down. And I have never shown any significant body comp changes reflecting any of my hard work and dedication. Yeah, I get that. So I didn't know what you guys think. Yeah, no, thanks for calling in. But by the way, you're kicking butt. Yeah, you're doing a really good job, actually. You're doing a really, really good job. So where were your calories before you bumped them up to the 21, 2, 200 that you're right now? Oh, I never counted, honestly, but I'm sure they were at 1,500. I'm I mean, it was, you know, packets of tuna for lunch and Apple, you know, never really, um, focusing on hitting my protein target of 170 is where I'm trying to hit right now. Okay, okay.

And then how long would you say, uh, before you moved into this direction, how long were you doing the like, more work, less food kind of mentality and approach? How many years with that? Probably forever. Okay. So, and how long have you been doing this right here? I just finished six months with you following it strict. Okay. Excellent job.

So in six months, the scale went up a few pounds, but your calories are higher and you're strong, by the way. I can see in your email that you're a bench of 135. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually gone up a little bit since that. That's exceptional. Okay. So here's what it looks like.

Now, first off, because you had such a long history of doing it a particular way, It takes a while to get the metabolic rate to start to really respond, which it's starting to, by the way. I could tell by the strength gains. But what it looks like is slowly building, and then you do the cut later, and then you see the fat loss. But I don't like cutting you when you're only at 21 to 2,200 calories.

Still too low to cut you. Keep going. If you were to cut to 1,500 right now, you would see some weight loss, but then it would plateau. And we wouldn't have anywhere to go. So I would want to see your calories get closer to 26, 27, 28, before we would do the cut, before we do the cut.

So essentially stay the course. You're doing anything right. Let me ask you a few questions. Over the last six months, since you've bumped your calories, you're doing the strength training. I see your swimming in your email. Any changes in how you feel? Yeah, I mean, my energy levels are good and I feel a lot better.

You know, I've always looked forward to going to the gym, but I look more forward to it now because I feel like every day I'm going up a little bit more, focusing a little bit more on my technique, working a little bit more on the intensity. My biggest struggle I think right now in the gym is that three-minute, that three-minute rest and stuff. I was just going to ask you, how are their rest periods going? For an athlete, those are all you.

I follow them, but after about a minute, I'm antsy. But no, I follow it. And I just think, you know, when you have been in the gym for like a really long time or the same gym, you know, for a really long time and you see the same people. And then, you know, they get the results or they've just had a baby or something. And then they come back full force. And it's just, you know, I'm just kind of waiting for my little golden moment. And I can't find it. And it makes me crazy, honestly.

I asked you how you felt because I wanted to point something out. And you said you felt a lot better. And it sounds like you just have more energy, more motivation. You just overall, you feel like you have better vitality. Would that be a fair statement? Okay. I wanted to point that out because you've been improving the last six months. Yeah.

Things are changing. That didn't come out of nowhere. Things are changing. The aesthetic changes happen a little later because we still got to get to a place where we can cut from. We don't want to go back to where we were before, which is what would happen if we cut you right now. If we cut you now, we definitely would see some fat loss, but it would play. plateau, and then you'd be stuck at 1500 calories again, and you would feel the way you did when you were eating so low.

And it's important to note that when you take somebody who potentially was around 1,500 calories eating and not seeing any sort of change in their body, and I get them all the way up to 21 to 200, and we see little to no gain, really, in body fat, that's a huge accomplishment. And it's like, now in the next six months, can we do that again? If we went from 500 or 1500 to 22, can we now go from 22 to 28 in the next 600? And again, even if the weight, the scale doesn't change very much, is that a huge, that's a huge win. But it's hard because I know you're putting the work in it. So you're like, I want, but it's like, this is the right way to do it.

If we're going to do this and we're going to keep it off for the rest of your life and you're going to have that golden moment and you're going to feel amazing. This is the path. This is the right way to go about it. And so once we get up to that 2,800 calories, then we bring you back down to 22, which is where you're at now. And you just, the weight, the body fat just comes off and you feel like you're being fed. you've got good energy, like all the signs that you feel now, vitality, all those things, but also leaning out. And then it looks like this beautiful, you're not having to force it.

It's just happening for you. But it's going to take a little bit of time. And that's why Sal asked how long were you on the other side? Because the longer you've been on that side, the longer it seems to take my clients for the metabolism to respond the way we want to respond. And so just be patient. You're doing great. You're doing really good.

So if you're putting on from, say, 20, 21, 22, going up to 26 in the next six months. So what does that look like? Should it be 100 calories a week, 50 calories a week? And then where should my protein still be at 170? And then I get kind of confused. So protein, you're for the entire period of this, this whole process, your protein solid and just keeps things around there.

It always come from carbs and fat. And it's normally whichever one you, you're more comfortable with. My only one thing with my female clients that keep an eye on is make sure you your fat's not too low. So if you're not getting at least 60 to 80 grams of fat a day, I would tell you to go fat. But if you're getting that, then I'd say wherever you want it from, fat or carbohydrates. This is a generic answer, but it looks like about 200 calories. We will bump there.

I normally hold a client there for a couple weeks. What I want to see is the scale staying the same. I don't want to see it rising. You might see like an initial little bump and then it kind of level out and sometimes it dips back down and then levels. But I want to see that kind of hold. about a week or two before I bump again. And so I'm just going to keep incrementally doing this 150 to 200 calories. It's normally about every two weeks or so.

Sometimes it's three if I want it to be, if I don't see weight kind of stabilizing. But I'm looking for weight to stabilize for a solid week before I bump again like that. And that's kind of what it looks stair stepping all the way through that process. Maintaining your steps what you're doing, maintaining the workouts the way you're doing. Everything that is all staying the same. And those calories are coming from either carbs or fat. Okay. Yep.

All right. And play with those, play with those, by the way. Like, if you have the flexibility in the diet, because while I'm coaching someone, I like to, like some people just run more optimally on a higher fat diet. And they're like, man, out of my skin, I know is a difference. My hormone profile, I sleep better. Some people, carbs, they're like, oh, my God, out of those extra 100 grams of carbs, my workouts are amazing now and I feel good and my muscle belly.

So play with it. Sometimes go more fat and see how you feel for a while. sometimes go more carbs go a blend of the two and and so I would encourage you to play with the two of them. Okay. That's kind of where I figure that, yeah, what you guys are going to say. And especially about bumping those calories up to 26, 28. Yeah. Yeah.

You're doing so good. It should be interesting what that looks like because 22 feels like a lot. Yeah. And so that has a lot. By the way, too. So back to I gave you a generic answer very two weeks. Sometimes that's longer because a client of mine, like 22's already rot and then I go 24 and you're going, oh my God, this is so hard.

So I got to kind of, sometimes I have to kind of pull you back then at 23 for a little bit and then go back. So it's hard to give like an exact answer that looks like. But the ultimate goal is in six months from now, we're eating close to 2,800 calories. What that roadmap looks like is very individualized. It could be every week going up a little bit. It could be every two weeks. It could be, we go up for a few weeks and then I have to pull you back a little bit for a while to give you a diet break because you feel like you're just stuffing yourself every day. So that's where the individualized kind of coaching happens.

is like, but overall, that's, your goal should be set on getting stronger, getting those calories up to there before we even think about the cutting process. And then the cutting will be a lot easier. That's right. All right. It's doable. I'm up for a challenge always to finally get any kind of results. And I want you to also, and I want you to keep having fun with the activity too.

I know you're swimming now. You have such a background of athleticism. Have fun with that. Don't ever stop doing that. enjoy it because that's going to keep you consistent forever. Don't do it to burn and try and lose body. Do it because you like doing it because you love doing it. Yeah.

That's a hard divide right there. It is a very hard divide. That's why I wanted to say that because sometimes when Sal gives someone permission like that, that's like permission to try and burn it off. It's like, no, no, no, no. That's not what he's saying. Just go have fun. Have fun.

If you love to swim, swim because you love to swim. Don't swim because you're like, oh, I think I burn an extra 800 calories today. That I don't want you to get into. And later on, we can lean into that on the cutting process when I go, hey, pick up another day of swimming so we can increase that chloric deficit. But we're not there yet right now. Right now we're in build process. So I want you to build, stay active. But don't go out of your way to do that stuff trying to burn.

Now, Jennifer, if you want somebody to coach you through that, we have coaches, you just let us know and I'll set you up on a call and you can see what that looks like. And they'll walk with you the whole. She had the concierge. She was at the concierge for months. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, good. You got great information then.

Oh, perfect. Yeah, that's how we got it. did. They were, they were very great and very helpful with all that. And I hated to have to bump out, but I got some life activities that are happening. And so I had to make a choice. And unfortunately, I had to drop that one. So I guess in six months, I'll do another Dexter scan and we'll see what happens. I wasn't real happy with that. That one kind of told what I thought it would. That's the starting point. That's all that matters. Doesn't matter what it says. It's like where we go from here is what matters. And don't discard, like, always remember, don't discredit like I feel better.

I'm stronger, I'm moving better. Like those are all signs you're progressing. It's not just the scale. Yeah. Yeah. It's very different after listening to you guys to go in and do a whole mental rewire, which has been excellent. And then to actually challenge myself personally after being on the bench in years past,

but being stuck in a certain weight and not realizing that I really could. and now at 52, I'm doing, I'm like, what? I'm loading, you know, with 45s. That's just insane to me, you know? It feels pretty badass. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. By the way, 135 pound bench for a woman is very, very strong.

Very, very impressive. Very, very. You're doing a few women to do that. You're doing a great. All right. Well, I'll just, I'll stay the course and stick with it. All right. Good job, Jennifer.

Yeah, perfect. Thank you guys. Thank you. She's doing great. Yeah. She's doing really good. If she stays consistent, this is going to be amazing for. her in six months. Yeah, just, you know, good opportunity to talk about how, um, the longer that you

were in that, that extreme mindset. It seems to be that way for sure. Yeah. That, that this is, uh, this can be the, the really difficult part is, and then she, you know, obviously she hears the show and we give advice. Then you get, we get these great testimonies. People calling in, oh my God, I lost those ways. And they, because we took your advice and they see it in six months or nine months. And sometimes this takes a year, two years for somebody to rebound their. And they, rebound their metabolism for so many years of the yo-yo dieting and the chronic extreme training with the chronic low calories. I had a client that took me a year and we would bump for so slow and we would see this

fluctuation of the scale that really scary and it took us a long time. But she had a long history of under-eating. One of my last clients I took on when I was in the gym was a case that took me two years and she was a collegiate level softball player had put on a lot of way and her mentality was just cut hard and she was strong, she was capable but it took us literally two years

before it really started to move like that. And during that process, we had a lot of these were, you know, reverse dieting, and then I would show her just to prove to her I knew what I was doing. Like, I could shred 10, 15 pounds off you real quick, but you have a lot more that you want to go

so we have to keep going this way. So yeah, it took home. It took her, that was the longest, though. I've never had anybody take that long. I remember how frustrating it was for me. Also had a sports medicine degree. So she, like, knew her shit. Yeah.

So even harder, it was like trying to get. Boy, that stuff. Yeah. Our next caller is Becky from Ontario. Hi, Becky. Hi, Becky. Hi, Becky. Hi, how are you? Good.

How can we help you? It's great to be with you guys. I've been a big fan now for about a year. I've been listening and binging on all of your podcasts. I'm just going to read my email because I'm really nervous. Thank you for all you do to help people with their health and fitness goals. I'm looking for some listener coaching from Sal Adam and Justin regarding my metabolism and nutrition postmenopause. I'm currently 52 years old.

I'm 5 foot 2. I'm 140 pounds. I recently made a massive lifestyle shift for five years from 2020 to 20 to 20. 2025, I was vegan and I, and I was a runner. I didn't really lift weights or anything. But over, starting in 2025, April, March, April, I went back to eating meat and dairy. I stopped running. I started lifting a couple times a week and Pilates three times a week, as well as pickleball two hours on Sundays. I started realizing pretty quickly, though, that I was, I felt like I was over training.

So in December, I stopped playing pickleball on Sundays and I stopped the Pilates and then I started training with a coach two days a week. I really haven't seen any fat loss. I feel like I'm stronger, but I don't see any fat loss. In fact, since April of 2025 till now, I've gained 15 pounds and 9.6 is fat and 5 pounds of lean mass. I'm kind of not sure what to do at this point. I've been trying to pay attention to my protein intake as well as I've been starting

to track calories and I'm starting to think maybe I've been under fueling. So when I was tracking, I was getting, you know, I think under 1,500 calories a day. And now I've been trying to work on reverse dieting in a bit. and the last few weeks I've been consistently around 17 to 2,200 calories. And I'm just wondering, is this the right way to go? I know you always say that reverse dieting takes time and trust the process, but it's really difficult because I weigh more than I ever have. So I guess I just want to look for some input from you.

Yeah, well, thanks for calling in, and it is very hard. So I have a few more questions to ask you if that's okay. Sure. So what made you stop being a vegan and a runner? What were the- Because I wanted to start lifting weights. Okay. Was there something that happened?

Was there energy injury? Was it like you got some health markers come back? Not really. I just didn't like, I just really wanted to get strong. I wanted to get sculpted and I wanted to look good. And I knew it wasn't, and I started listening to your podcast. And that was the one thing that changed. I love it.

What are the different things? that you felt since you switched to have you said you think you're stronger what do you mean by that or what do you notice? Well, that's the way I'm stronger. I mean, I just did, I just entered into a deadlift competition and I was able to lift 175. Let's go. So my, my, my, my top weight there is, is 185. And I can bench press 90.

That's great. That's incredible. Yeah, I've never done anything like that before. So I know I'm stronger, but I'm just, I'm not seeing it on my body. You know, I just, there's this layer of fat that I just can't drop. It's going to take a, it's going to take a little while because your caliber is so low, hon. So, and you may gain some body weight, but the other option is to just do what you were doing before, which wasn't working either.

So we got, we got to keep moving in a direction where we have a little runway. I've seen your email that you, it says you were shocked to find out that you were eating around a thousand, 90 calories a day? When was that? Yeah. When I was, I just decided to randomly track and I was like, whoa, that's, that's really low. I expected it to be more than that. Yeah.

It's important through this process of reverse dieting because what can be, what can be disheartening or what can be discouraging is to watch the scale, either go up a little bit or not change at all or to see that the body fat's not coming off. But what tends to happen is we ignore some of the other things that are happening like strength, energy, mobility, sleep, libido. If you're noticing improvements in all those areas, it's because the reverse diet's working. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

The fat loss doesn't happen until later when we have some place to cut from because there was nowhere to cut from before. Your calories are so low, if we cut you, it would have made you sick. And we're still too low. So, you know, 1700 to 2,000, if we cut you, we would bring you down to 1,200.

and you might see a little bit of fat loss, but then you plateau, you lose strength, and you would feel crappy. It wouldn't put you in a good place. So it's, I just find it hard to eat right now because I'm finding that, you know, I'm pretty full eating what I'm eating right now.

So I don't know if I need to just eat more meals per day or? No, what will happen? So what happens? And we get this question a lot, especially on live callers of like, what exactly does the reverse diet look like? And it's so hard because everybody's going to be a little bit different.

Like somebody, we put on a reverse diet. It's like, oh, my God, my appetite's through the roof. I can eat so much. Other people will be like, I feel like I'm stuffing myself. This is so hard to get this food down. And so what will happen is you'll hit, you're probably pushing to a good point right now where you said your calories are.

You'll stay there maintaining that while continuing to lift and get stronger. Then all sudden, out of nowhere, you'll start to feel this appetite increase. And that's a great sign. It's probably because you built a little bit of muscle. You're getting stronger. Now the body is saying, hey, it needs more calories. Then we lean into that. Then we bump the calories again.

Then you'll be at another place again. We're like, oh, my God, it's a lot of food. We stay there for a while. Then all of a sudden, strength goes up again in the gym, followed by that, comes appetite. And so it kind of looks like that. And it's just stair stepping process. And it's not like this clear like, okay,

we're going to add 200 calories every three weeks forever. It's like, no, you're going to add it. You're going to keep it there for a little bit. And then you're going to, and you should see the results of the strength in the gym. And then not long after that, you typically feel the appetite come up a little bit. And then it's like, okay, we can bump the calories again. And that's what it looks like.

And there's more to add to that too. So when you say you're feeling full, explain that to me. Is it like your stomach hurts? You're bloated. Is it just, I feel like I'm satisfied? Yeah, I'm just, I feel like I'm satisfied. Like, I don't have hunger. I'm not hungry.

Okay. You know, I'm hungry at my meal times, but I'm not hungry in between. I've never been a snacker. Okay, okay, good. Now, how long before all of this would you say you were eating very little or kind of under eating? How many years was that? Oh, my whole life.

Okay. Probably, yeah. I mean, I would say so for sure. And I went through a period too when I was intermittent fasting. So I wouldn't eat breakfast. And then since I started listening to you guys, I started eating breakfast because it's a good, you know, it's an extra meal that I'm getting more protein in. Okay. So I'm not to dismiss what you're saying, okay?

So because that's how you feel. But there is a very strong psychological component to appetite. So I can get somebody. I'll use myself as an example because if you've listened to the show, you've probably heard me tell the story, but as a kid, I felt like I was really skinny. I was always trying to gain muscle,

always trying to get size. And so I conditioned myself that full felt a particular way. And really what it was is I was just stuffing myself. Later, when I was eating appropriately, I felt like I wasn't eating enough. I had to recalibrate what that actually felt like. On the other end of the spectrum,

people under eat for years and years and years or for the whole life. What they're used to satisfaction feeling like is being underfed. And being, I'm overstuffed is actually, this is actually how much, this is what you're supposed to feel like. And you kind of got to oftentimes to tell people listen to your body, but there are cases where I tell people actually we've got to ignore your body signals right now. You're not eating enough or you're eating too much.

And so I think that's a little bit of probably what's happening. Because you've had such a history of under eating, that eating more of an appropriate amount feels like, oh my God, I'm eating so much food. and I'm not full or I'm too full. When in reality, it's more appropriate. And this is the power of a good coach, right? A good coach takes in the information that you're giving them. And then there might be a time where I'm like, okay, I'm going to ask you,

I'm going to push you in that direction. I know you feel that way. I'm going to push you a little bit. And then I want to see how you feel and respond. And so there's this kind of this ebb and flow of taking in the data from you and what you're feeling and what we're doing, a little bit of me stretching you sometimes, having to pull back sometimes. and a good coach will walk you through all this because Sal's right when you've been doing

when you've been eating a certain way for so long we're all guilty of this I'm guilty to same similar story as Sal we've and I've talked about it on the show many times like man I've realized like I ate to be this big guy for so long that my my view of a full plate is totally distorted and I'm like I have to recalibrate that completely and you're no different you're just on the other side of the spectrum of that and so some of that is just rewiring that. You're not used to eating what would be an appropriate amount to strengthen build muscle. The reverse diet's going to feel uncomfortable.

In other words, so you just kind of kind of accept it's going to feel uncomfortable for a little while until you start to get used to what it feels like. And then, of course, we'll have the cut on the other end of it. And then we're going to see that off. Should I be in the gym more than two days a week? No. I think you're perfectly fine. You're getting stronger.

You're doing great. Yep. I like strength training twice a week on your days off. You're tracking your steps. Are you doing that? eight to 10,000 steps a day. And I do, I do still do, like, really long hikes. Like, I've got a long hike this Saturday, 32, 32 kilometer hike this Saturday.

Oh, you're great. Yeah, I like it. You're great. Hey, listen, the day before that long hike, I want you to feed yourself. Yeah. I will. Yeah, so make sure you get up to 2,500 calories the day before. That'll help you.

Yeah. Fuel up before, fuel up right after. Feed the body on those long. I mean, but your activity level is great. Yeah. Stay the course. you're moving in the right direction for sure. And always remind yourself energy, strength, vitality,

because those things will help keep you on course when you're, you know, because otherwise we get too focused on the scale and the body fat when it's not even time for that yet. Okay. Is there a specific cue or some way I'm going to know when is a good time for me to start cutting? Typically, we want to get you to a point calorically where we can drop you. You're at a nice maintenance of something that feels comfortable.

So someone like you, your activity level, the hiking, string trail, that stuff, I probably would want to cut you closer to 2,000 calories. I think that's a nice maintenance caloric intake where you're not going to feel like you're starving. You've got nice energy. So that probably means we need to get you closer to the higher twos with your calories first. Yeah. Okay. So you're thinking 2,800? Yeah, around there.

Yeah, around there. Give or take. Yep. I know. It sounds crazy. It sounds crazy. It sounds crazy. It's actually one of my favorite things to do.

clients is you tell them that early in the in the process and they're like they cannot imagine eating that much and then they get there they're like I can't believe I eat and I'm hungry and I eat this every day and I maintain the weight I like it's just it's an amazing thing when you unlock it but it takes patience the psychological part is hard we've got a lot of rewiring to do from so many years of doing it a different way and so be patient with that and know that if you need help we have coaches that's what they do so if you need help from us and you want that support If you want somebody to walk you through the whole process, we have amazing coaches. And that's what they'll do.

And they'll change it and adjust it along the way. That sounds great. Thank you. Yeah, you got it. You got it. Well, thanks for calling in. Thank you very much. Keep doing what you're doing.

Same. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, similar to the previous, you know, some of the previous callers. It's just there's the consistency there. But what's interesting, the most interesting thing about this is, and I've heard this so many times, I feel like I'm stuffing myself. and it's because you're so used to under eating that that's your comfort zone

that when you start to eat you know. Yeah, especially going from vegan too to like eating meat again. I'm sure that's satiating. 100%. And I know the opposite of it. It took me a while to understand

what a normal meal looks like because normal to me in the past was a lot. Totally. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body,

dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at Mind Pumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic, nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price.

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