Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2959: The Secrets for Training in a Calorie Deficit (Most People Get This Completely Wrong)

Episode Date: October 3, 2026

MAPS Abs and Butt: https://mapsabsandbutt.com Code: LAUNCH for 40% off. Includes Butt Building Diet Guide, Women's Supplement Guide, at-home dumbbell version and a free second program at checkout (Muscle Mommy or Muscle Mommy 15). In this episode the guys break down the secrets for training in a calorie deficit — why bodyweight lifts are psychologically and physically the best choice when cutting, what it actually feels like to train depleted and why anticipating it helps you push through, why low reps beat high reps in a deficit because they preserve muscle with far less stress on the body, why nighttime hunger is normal and how to reframe it instead of fighting it, and the sodium hack that makes you feel dramatically better when eating whole foods and low carbs. They also cover Parachew and how paraxanthine gives you the clean energy of caffeine without the jitters, crash or sleep disruption, Adam training with his wife in the garage and her calling out that he flipped his plan from "lower volume" to "get shredded" without realizing it, how Adam's readiness score went from 47 to the high 70s after taking three days off and the three pounds of inflammation that dropped overnight, the Noah's Ark ground-penetrating radar findings and the pattern of biblical archaeology validating stories that scientists dismissed, the Founder School that charges $150,000 a year but refunds it all if you do not build a $1 million profitable business by graduation, the patron saint of comedians who said "turn me over, I'm done on this side" while being grilled alive, and Caldera Lab eye serum and the clinical study results. Then they coach live callers submitted through mplivecaller.com. Mind Pump Fitness Coaching: https://mindpumpfitnesscoaching.com 1.9 NASM CEUs SPONSORS Parachew (paraxanthine gummies): https://parachew.com/mindpump Code: MINDPUMP for 20% off first order. Caldera Lab (Eye Serum): https://calderalab.com/mindpump Code: MINDPUMP for 20% off. Seed Daily Synbiotic: https://seed.com/mindpump Code: 25MINDPUMP for 25% off your first month. LINKS Submit a live caller question: https://mplivecaller.com Mind Pump Store: https://mindpumpstore.com Maps Fitness Products: https://mapsfitnessproducts.com Instagram: @mindpumpmedia   0:00 - Intro 2:24 - Secrets for training in a calorie deficit 5:36 - Secret 1: Bodyweight lifts — pull ups and dips get better as you get lighter 8:25 - Secret 2: Anticipate the depleted training feel — it is supposed to feel different 11:55 - Secret 3: Low reps work better in a deficit — less volume, less stress, more muscle preserved 14:03 - Why you should dramatically cut volume when calories drop 16:45 - Secret 4: You will feel hungry at night — make friends with it 18:49 - Secret 5: The sodium hack — bump sodium when whole food calories drop 21:07 - Parachew — what paraxanthine is and why it beats caffeine for afternoon energy 27:51 - Adam's wife calls him out for flipping from lower volume to trying to get shredded 32:22 - Adam's readiness score went from 47 to the high 70s after three days off 38:39 - Noah's Ark ground-penetrating radar findings and the pattern of biblical archaeology 48:26 - Founder School — $150K per year, full refund if you do not build a $1 million business by graduation 57:57 - Caldera Lab eye serum and the clinical study results 1:01:25 - Caller: Kevin (Massachusetts) — 37-year-old former skateboarder, lifts for 22 months, strong genetics, gets MAPS Anabolic Advanced 1:17:11 - Caller: Jen (West Virginia) — former group fitness instructor, hitting PRs on Muscle Mommy 15, how hard to push at 49, gets full MAPS 15 library 1:24:37 - Caller: Katie (Texas) — returning caller, loves Old Time Strength and Performance, ready for MAPS Upper Lower and a calorie push 1:32:43 - Caller: Jessica (Massachusetts) — returning caller, eating disorder history, up to 1900 calories at 50/50 consistency, starts therapy, gets grace and direction

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Enjoy the rest of the show. You're in a calorie deficit. You're trying to burn body fat. That's the goal. What about your training? Should that change? with that like. We're going to talk about the secrets for training when you're in a calorie deficit. Look, this will help you out a lot. Here we go. It's obviously top of mind for you and I.

It is. It is. And there are things to consider when you're working out in a deficit because it's different. It feels different. There's different things to consider. And I think going into it without any awareness can set you up for some failure. Like should I be experiencing this? What does this feel like. And also going into it, understanding the possible roadblocks or hurdles or mental struggles, because there's a lot of those, anytime you change something in your diet or workout. And if you're not aware, and I need this as a coach, right? As a coach or as a trainer, I would prepare my clients ahead of time and forecast. So when they ran into things, it wasn't this shock. And I wasn't having to play catch up or put out fires. They knew it because it's like,

oh, yeah, he told me I would feel this. Well, we have to consider this. And we talk a lot about the stress bucket, right? And we talk about, you know, personal live stuff. We talk about intensity, volume, like all these different, you know, work stuff that you got going on. All these count in your stress bucket. And when it overspills, it's really difficult for the body to do what you wanted to do, whether that be building muscle or burning body fat. And you just have to consider that, and I don't think we talk about because we talk about obviously it's necessary in order to lose body fat to be in a caloric deficit. Right.

But a caloric deficit is another stress. That's right. When you're in a caloric, think of that stress bucket. When I am in a deficit, the bucket smaller. That's right. You shrink the bucket. And that's just because my body, so the nature of a deficit literally means this. I'm not eating enough to sustain myself.

So my body is tapping into stored energy, hopefully body fat, to sustain myself. So that bucket is now smaller. So that's a really, really good way to explain that analogy. Love that. All right. Here's the first one, I'll tell you, because in this I learned a long time ago. I'll tell a story so it's all connected. I remember years ago, first of all, being in a deficit for me, a controlled deficit,

was never something that I ever really tried to do consistently for a long time. And mainly because I started working out because I thought it was skinny and I want to get bigger. So why would I ever want to get smaller? Like, why would I even try that? I've never lost that mentality. That's right. And actually, I'm better at it now. But thanks, Justin.

I'll point that up. But I did. Eventually I did really try to be in a more dedicated deficit. And there's lots of psychological stuff. around that for someone like me, like, oh, I feel small on my shirt, like what's going on? And one of them was like just feeling weaker in the gym. And when you're in a deficit, if you're training at a high level, you've been doing it for a while, like you can't expect yourself to get stronger.

And you especially, sometimes you can't expect to even maintain some strength. But I'll never forget, I was having these workouts. And at this time, I was trying to get really good at pull-ups. And so my pull-ups were getting better. Yeah. And I was like, dude, I'm getting, and I was telling one of them, my friends, because I had been a deficit at this point for maybe eight weeks, which is like the longest I ever ever was at that point. And I was getting better at pull-ups. And I was telling

my friend, like, dude, I'm doing something crazy. I said, I don't understand how I'm getting stronger. And he goes, you're lighter. Yeah. I was like, oh, yeah. Pull-ups, dips, push-ups. Yeah. I mean, that really is a good strategy to kind of lean into that as you're reducing calories and losing weight. Massive weight lifts are great. Massive strategy, because, again, we always talk about the psychological component of all this game too. Totally. Right. And you, I always got weaker. I don't know, I mean, maybe other people have had better experiences, but any major cut I went on. You can expect to get weaker. Yeah, it's just, and obviously my goal is to, to not get a lot. You're not way weaker. That's right. But I was very realistic that I was going to, because I'm coming off of

a bulk and peak intensity, trying in volume, all the things. And so, yeah, going the opposite. And so, yeah, going the direction, it's pretty natural to see a decrease in some weight. Now, I don't want to see a massive one because that normally tells me I'm probably stressing the body too much or cutting back too much. But it's pretty normal to see some of that. And so one of the cyclot, and that can be discouraging. I don't care even if you understand the science and you know what's happening. Nobody wants to see their weight go down. Yeah, it can be discouraging. So I love to do movements either, this is a time when I love to change up movements completely, like all of a sudden. Because then you don't have a baseline. That's right. So like, I haven't done Turkish kidups in a long time. So like,

here I am in a cut. It's a great time for me. Like, you know what? I'm going to start reintroducing triggers. Why? Because I'd have to start back at zero anyways. And I actually might see myself get a little stronger. That's right, because the skill gets better. Great point. So it's like, then that psychological is like, oh, I'm actually getting stronger. It's like, no, you idiot. You haven't done it in a year. And you're just readapting to that movement that you used to be that strong in, right? So and pull-ups are a great example of that. So I think body weight stuff, new movements, great strategies when you're in deficit for the psychological 100%.

So, and now someone listening is like, well, I got stronger in a deficit. This will happen when you're a beginner, maybe the first year of training. But if you've been training for a while and you're hitting numbers and, you know, you're like the strongest you've ever been, you can expect the top weight to go down and lifts like deadlifts and squats and presses. But body weight exercises in a deficit tend to get better because you're lighter. Pull-ups and dips and sit-ups and pistol squats. They tend to get better.

And so what it does, it gives me that psychological fuel I need. Like, oh, here I am. I'm doing this lift. I'm better at this lift, even though I'm in a deficit. And that's encouraging. And I'll tell you something. Like being encouraged when you're going in a particular direction with your diet is very important for consistency. It really is.

And so for me, body lips. This is a great hack. Here's another one. Anticipate what it's going to feel like to train in a deficit or to feel depleted. It feels different, everybody. when you're well fed, you go into a workout, and you're like, I could tackle everything. I feel like I could just run through the barbell. It's not a problem.

When I'm in a deficit, now this is a proper deficit, not like too much, right, dragging myself. But when I'm in a deficit, it just feels different. It's just when I'm working out, I don't have the same, er, the same grind, the same, you know, strength, the same intensity. And so I know this. I have to prepare myself to go into my workout to know this is going to feel different than when I'm at 4,000 calories. my workouts feel very different than when I'm at 2,800 calories. It's going to feel very different. Yeah, the intention's totally different.

It's totally different. I had it this morning. This morning, I was working out in my garage with my wife, and I'm training. And the familiar feeling of training on low calories is coming back. And I'm like, I remember what this feels like. I'm a little more fatigued. It sucks. I don't have the same.

It's just different. It sucks. It's demoralizing. Your glycogen stores are depleted, so your muscle bellies aren't getting full like they're used to. You're probably lower on carbohydrates and calories. it's in calories, and so you're weaker, you're tired. It can be very defeating and discouraging, and probably a big reason why a lot of people bail on it.

This is also not to hijack this intro or tip, but this reminds me of why I used to like carb cycling so much. Yeah. Was because every third or fourth day, I would load, refeed, or push carbs way up from the previous really low three to four days. And it would remind me of that good workout feeling going like, okay, I'm not really weaker.

So even though, again, I know all that, it can still get in your head when you're weeks and weeks of this consistent, when you're trying to lose a lot of body fat and you're staying in this deficit for a long time. So to have these refeed days, again, more great bodybuilder wisdom that we probably muddied up with the way that we talked about it and explained the science behind it. I'll just purely go from the psychological part. I remember that defeated feeling and feeling depleted, flat, low energy, all the stuff. But then I knew in two more days, I get it to load up.

And then I would load up and then it would feel like the most amazing workout I've had. And it would just remind me of like, okay. And then I'd have to go back down again. I'd go like, it's okay. I'm going to feel this way. So much of quote unquote, bodybuilding science or bro science is based off of psychology that they tried to explain away with science. But here's what happens with what you're saying.

So carbohydrates are an easy macronutrient to lower because they're not essential. So you're not risking as much as when you cut fat and definitely protein. Like you cut fat too low, your body can't function. You could literally eat 10,000 calories a day. But if your fat was too low, your body would starve. Okay. So it's essential. Carbs aren't essential.

So you could play with them. But here's what happens. When you cut your carbs, you don't get good pumps in the gym. Your energy goes down. And so that refeed is literally just so I can feel good again. Yep. And I look forward to it. And that's that psychological piece.

But the other psychological piece is this, like knowing I'm going to feel more depleted in my workouts, anticipating it, expecting it. It really, and then getting used to that feeling. There's head knowledge and then there's heart knowledge, right? There's knowing up here, which is fine, but then there's the knowing of the feeling. And because I've done this before, when I feel depleted, like this morning, I'm working out and I can tell I'm depleted, it's not crushing me. So I'm like, oh, yeah, I know what this feeling's like.

I've been here before. It means I'm getting leaner. It means I'm in a deficit. Here's the next one. Now, all things being equal, low wraps tend to work better in a deficit. And here's why. It's lower volume. Yeah.

It's not because it's heavy. It's not for this crazy muscle sparing effect. Fatigue without energy is an extra crushing. Yeah. Because you're not giving yourself that added bit of energy to really get through sort of more of the higher rep. And it's a little closer towards the endurance side of the fence. And so, you know, it could be pretty demoralizing when you're not. like full of energy. Yeah, like five sets of four reps on a deadlift or a squat or a press don't

require nearly as much energy as five sets of 15 reps of those exercises. Plus the 15 reps can, that's a lot of volume. People forget that it's not just sets that play a role in volume. It's also reps that play a role and volume and weight, but reps play more of a role. A set of 20 reps of a barbell squat almost to failure will fatigue you and hammer you way more than a set of five reps at a similar intensity. It just does. And so low reps, they stress the body less. They don't feel like dying as much. And they tend to be more appropriate, all things being great for preserving muscle as well. So, you know, that that's a huge, you know, something to consider while you're going through cut is like the biggest thing on your mind should be like, how can I preserve muscle?

Can I keep stimulating that strength signal? And to do that without like the high volume and more of the fatigue side is, you know, the low reps make a lot of sense. Listen, at this point of the training cycle, if we are in a deficit to get lean and lose body fat, the goal is no longer to build muscle. It is to keep the muscle I built in the calorie surplus. And we've talked about the studies and what it shows on what you need to do in order to maintain muscle that you already built. it is a significantly lower amount of volume than what it took to build there. So I know there's like ranges on the different studies,

but it's less than half. Nobody goes to half. I don't know anybody that is in a training rhythm. Nobody cuts their volume when they're in a deficit period. No. Let alone go down to half. Exactly. And yet you can go less than half.

I mean, so my rule is get in there, touch the weights, get out at this point. Let the diet do the work. And understand that I'm working with a smaller stress bucket. And the longer I stay in there, the more repetitions I do, the more volume and intensity I push in this deficit, the more likely I am to overspill that stress bucket. The number one problem with people's training when they're in a deficit is they burn themselves out. That's the number one problem because here's the thought process, right?

I'm trying to lose body fat. So I'm cutting my calories. So I kind of burn more calories in my workout. I'm going to push it even harder. But you're literally setting yourself up for failure. The stress bucket's smaller because of the lower calories. You're going to go train even harder, which is going to make it more difficult to recover from. And that's a muscle destroyer.

That's a fantastic way to lose muscle. And again, referring to the data, Adam, like the thing that you want to manage the most is stress management. And sending a signal to maintain muscle doesn't require much. But the problem is, is we think, well, I got to keep muscle. I'm going to frantically train the heck out of myself to keep this muscle. But they forget that their stress bucket is smaller because they're in a deficit. Low reps really does a good job. MAPs Anabolic Phase 1 is the most successful phase of any math program for me personally in a deficit.

When I put myself in a deficit, if I train like that, I keep muscle, I feel good, I don't over-trained. When I start pushing the volume and my calories drop, I have to bump my calories. Otherwise, I'm going to burn myself out. I can feel my workouts. I can see it in the way I look. So low wraps tend to work better when you're in a deficit. All right, here's another one, and this is more of a like, anticipate this. You're going to feel hungry at night.

You just are. People are so afraid of the hunger signal. It's okay. And I get it, right? I get that we communicate in the space, like, you know, feed yourself if you're hungry and you shouldn't feel hungry. You know, our diet makes it so that you never have hunger again. Or here's a supplement that'll make it so you're not hungry.

Oh, GLP ones, that'll control your hunger and they do pretty well, a pretty good job of doing that. But when you're in a deficit, you can expect to feel some hunger. and it typically hits at night. Typically when you're not busy, you're sitting around, you've eaten your meals, and then it starts to hit. And what you typically did in the past

as you go reach for more food or a snack or whatever, know that when you're in a deficit, especially if it's a substantial deficit, that at night you're going to start to feel hungry and kind of make friends with it. Now, I'm not speaking to people who have dysfunctional eating patterns

around restricting themselves. These are people that I'm like, no, no, you're way too comfortable being hungry. In fact, that's your best friend. But for the average person, you're going to feel some hunger at night. And I know this. I know when I'm in a deficit at night, I'm thinking about food a little bit. But what I tell myself is like, oh, yeah, I'm in a deficit. This is my body's burning body family. The body's supposed to send that signal. Yes. Yeah, you're supposed to feel that a little bit. This is arguably the one of the hardest things I think of the cut is the evenings. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, at least personally. Personally, you know, this is where I wind down. Katrina and I will watch a TV series or something. Oh, it's so hard not to grab us now. Yeah, the habits, the cravings, the actual real hunger because you've been in a deficit for the last couple weeks. Like, it all sets in. The thing that works for me is the reframing. There's two things I lean on at this time.

And this is, again, very top of mind right now for me. One is I remind myself, like, that feeling. And I know that I've been in multiple days in a row of a deficit. Like, I'm laying on this couch watching a great show with my wife. And I am burning body fat. Like, what a cool thing. What I'm like, I'm getting leaner by the. minute, right? And I think about that. The other thing that it encourages for me, which is really good, is

I have a hard time going to bed really early. But when I'm hungry, I'm so motivated to go to bed and go to sleep. Number one hack for me when I'm when I'm in a deficit and I'm starting to feel hunger is to go to go to bed. Go to bed. Like the longer you stay up, the longer you're going to be fight on. I'm telling Katrina, like 8.30, I'm like, hey, let's go. Let's go ahead. Which by the way, I'm going to see, there's a double. There's two sides of that. Get a great. Get a full night sleep. You get eight, nine hours of which you need with a smaller stress bucket. That's right. So it's like I'm avoiding this, you know,

that's right. And I lean into those two things. I lean into, hey, I'm leaning out while I'm relaxing here. And two, man, I really want to go to bed earlier because I don't want to stay up for another two hours thinking about food. And oh, guess what? That makes me have better sleep, better recovery, increases that stress bucket bigger.

Like, this is the way to go. Yeah, so I have another hack with that. So it's that. I totally do that. And the other one is carbonated water. Carbonated water sipping on that throughout the evening. does help make a difference. And I've used this with clients as well.

I've even had clients add a little salt and lime to it. Well, that too, if somebody's kind of cutting out alcohol, like it works really well with like the mineral water. Yeah, yeah. It's totally a corona.

Yeah, I think there's two things that are happening there because I do, I kick up, like I start drinking my element way more. I normally have two now at this point. And I think there's, I also think that if you're doing this really clean and through whole foods, you naturally are reducing sodium quite a bit.

That's the last one. And there's a part that like that feels. good. Yes, that's the last one was the sodium hack. So here's what, oftentimes, and I had this happen with clients a couple times before we really figured this out. When you drop your calories, when you, especially if you're sticking to whole natural foods, which you should if you're dropping your calories, otherwise you're eating processed foods

and trying to eat in a deficit. Good luck with that. So that's number two. Number three, if you cut your carbohydrates, which you probably did, even if you're not low carb, carbs are going to come down if calories come down, right? All of those things suck water out of your body. Sodium helps keep it in. Now, why do you want more water in your body?

Well, why would it? Because you feel like crap. You actually start to feel like crap. You start to get dizzy in your workouts and you think, is it because my calories are too low? Sometimes that's the case, but sometimes you just need some sodium. Also, it helps with hunger. If you need more sodium, sometimes your body kicks up hunger. So this is the sodium hack.

So unless you're a bodybuilder who's going to go on stage and needs to cut sodium, which none of it, I hope you're not listening to this. And that's why you're listening to these tips. bump your sodium up when your calories drop. It makes you feel a lot better. In fact, especially on low-carb diets, you'll hear people talk about the keto flu or low-carb flu where they feel like terrible.

It's because they need more sodium. It has nothing to do with the low carbs. You know, and I think people underestimate because they go, well, I salt all my food. But if you're eating all whole foods, it's not much. It is wild how much you could salt whole foods compared to one thing package for the day.

Oh, gosh. The amount of sodium, in one piece of anything packaged. Oh, yeah. Or one fast food meal? Oh, yeah. That's like 3,000 milligrams. So, yeah.

So if you're eating all whole foods and seasoning it all up, you still end up being, you're way lower than probably, especially if you're coming from, because you keep that in mind also, right? What you've, your body is adapted to a processed food diet prior to this. That's a dramatic swing for a lot of people. And bumping the sodium higher than they would think with drinks like the, like element make a huge difference. helps out a lot.

Totally. All right. I'm excited to talk about one of our new partners because they have a product that uses a compound that I've been reading about for a long time. So it's parochews, which I had all you guys try before we worked with them. First off of all. Yeah.

So tell me what you're experiencing. I mean, we talked off there, but go ahead and tell the audience what your experience. Well, it's, well, what it reminds me of is all the benefits that you feel from caffeine without the

negatives, without the crash and out, without the affecting sleep later in the evening. I thought it was very interesting. Now, if I recall, long before they started working with us, you found this through, how did you, you, you introduced this. And I don't know if you took a pill form of it first or how you found. I experimented with it. So when you drink, when you take caffeine, about 80% of the caffeine gets converted to something called parisanthine.

Okay. Parasanthine is the reason why caffeine gives you energy. It's what gives you that focus. It's what picks you up. It's the parisanthing, okay? the other 20% For some people It's even more

We have a liver enzyme That'll convert caffeine By the way Which is why some people caffeine They're so much more sensitive To caffeine It has to do with this

particular enzyme But 20% or so Of this caffeine Will get converted to A couple other compounds Thobromine and Theophilling Both of which are what are responsible

For the jitters The edginess The stomach issues Some people have coffee or caffeine They'll get diarrhea Sometimes yeah It's the parazanthine that gives you that kind of energy, that clean energy. So parrachews are these little like gumdrop looking things.

You eat them, which, by the way, I like that they're like this because drinking lots of energy drinks with lots of flu, like they're not as convenient. Something like this could pop in your mouth. Yeah. half life is a bit less than caffeine, and those two compounds, therobroming and theophelene, have a really long half-life. So when you drink caffeine at like 1 p.m. And you're like, oh. That's why I got cut off before noon.

Right, right. So you're like that, right? So if you have it at one or two, it affects my sleep. It affects your sleep. It's the theoboromene and theophealing, which have like an eight-hour half-life. I'm going to have to try. I'm like independent of each other. I've tried both together.

And it was like a very similar effect, you know, after the caffeine. But like to start the day with. the parazanthine first and like run it throughout the day. So here's what I like about the parochews. So I can't have caffeine past noon like you. If I do, even if it's a little bit, my sleep is affected. So I have to cut it off. Usually I cut mine off early in the morning.

I'll have it at like 6.30 or 7 a.m. And then that's it. I can have one of these at 3 p.m. or 2 p.m. And it won't affect my sleep negatively. Oh, wow. Because of the short half life and because it doesn't have the theobromine or theophealine. Yeah.

That then mess you up a little bit. But it does feel, it feels like a smooth caffeine. It feels like it's not the same wired kind of edgy feel. It's got a different feel. So, you know, for people listening, he's like, if you want to try that kind of stimulant effect. Where did you first hear about it? I remember you brought it up a while back.

So what were you doing? So I love, you guys know I love supplements and chemicals and all that stuff, better or worse. And there was this post on, and I'm always experimenting with things. Oh, you saw a post on it. Yeah. And it's, okay, again, better or worse. I think God I don't have a podcast where I could use it for good.

I saw this post and there was this scientist discussing this alertness chemical with all these studies showing how beneficial it is. And he was quoting these studies. And I'd never heard of Parazanthine before. So I thought it was some new discovered stimulant, which got me excited. So I'm like, cool, let's try this new, this new over-the-counter drug. Yeah. But I looked at it and then I read about it and I'm like, oh, this is what caffeine

Converts to. Like what a lot of it converts to. And so I'm like, well, why would I take this instead of just the caffeine? So I went a little deeper. And it was this other stuff that the caffeine turns into that causes these other effects. So I was like, all right, let me try it out. So I went online. I found some random company, tried some capsules.

And it was, I loved it. It felt good. I didn't get the crash at the end. I didn't get the jittery. You know, jitteries. I'm not as sensitive as Doug as with caffeine, but I'm more sensitive. than you guys are. So I played with it.

I also, my wife, I'll give it to her 3 p.m. when she crashes. If she has coffee, same thing. She'll have crappy sleep. But if I give her, you know, parochew, then she's okay by the time we go to bed. So it's just another, it's another stimulant that's... Did they reach out to us because you had brought that up

in the show way back when? I don't know. I just saw the bottle in the studio. They must have heard us talk about. They must have heard you because you talked about it before. I did. I brought up on past episode. Yeah, you brought it back.

And I don't remember how far back this was. You tried a pill of it, but it didn't have the same. same effect. This was much more... I tried low doses and scaled my way up. So this is 200 milligrams of parazanthine in one of the chews, which will feel like you'll get the energy of like a good, strong energy drink, but it feels so much less edgy. You just feel kind of like good. Now, what I haven't done, and I'm curious if you have, because you're Mr. Well, you're going to combine it with... Yes. Have you done it with ketones yet? Oh, with key, no. No, I haven't. No, that's a good call. I've tried it pre-work out. I've taken it later

in the afternoon if I crash. I give it to Jessica all the time. Yeah, be interested to stack it with ketones. Yeah. Because that tends to be my post, like noon type of deal to keep me kind of going like that. Dude, I'm doing all the things. It's funny because people are like making fun of me because I'm not jumping in on the bandwagon of the, let's get lean, you know, in tiny train with you guys. Justin's always reversed dieting.

I mean, somebody's got to stay big and jacked. It's pronounced. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, at the same time, it's like, dude, my stress, but you're talking about a stress bucket is like this big. Oh, you got a lot of stuff. I'm like, yeah, like, what am I going to do? Like, just, yeah.

Throw more stuff on your stuff? Yeah, all the gasoline on top of it. That's a good point. Like, nah. That's the last thing I would want you to do. You're right. Yeah. And I haven't had sleep.

Sleep's been terrible. And so, yeah, like I am actually looking at all terms because I still need energy and I need, you know, my cognitive ability to be sharp. And it's, so it's been kind of tough to balance that without taking like a million supplements. Dude, speaking of which, my wife called me out so hard this morning. Oh, what? So hard, dude. And she's getting better at calling me out because I love, listen, one thing I love about my wife is that she's not afraid to do that.

But one thing I also have a challenge with, like I think all men, is, you know, I can perceive it as criticism and then, you know, get defensive and the whole deal. So this morning, we're working out together. I'm trying to make more time for us to spend together because lately we've been, we're really busy serving at the church. And so we're not really doing our date nights like we normally do. So this is the second week I did this is, hey, let's work out in the morning together. So we did. And we're working out. And she knows, you know, this constant thing I'm working on, right, my relationship to working out, like how I am with exercise and all that stuff.

And she's like, you know, I think the thing that you, I'm going to paraphrase, she's like, if the thing you're trying to work on is your flexibility around it, not being so attached to all of it. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Immediately, right? I'm like, I've cut my training volume down. I'm trying to get smaller right now. And I'm eating less. Like, I'm not just trying to be big.

I'm trying to see if I could get my weight down so that I don't snore as much. And I'm like, no, you're trying to get shredded. Is what you're trying to do, essentially. And it's like, so I'm like, and so she's getting better at it because she like backed off. Let me sit with it for a little. And then, you know, she came and built me up a little bit, a little later, tell me about the great things that I'm doing. So I could, like, sit with that a little bit.

Because she's like, you know, you can fool yourself, but she's right. I totally can. There's two sides of dysfunction, and I can go from here to here and miss the middle. And so I'm like, it started by me saying, I'm going to lower my volume. I'm going to try and get smaller. And now what it's turned into is I'm going to get shredded, which I kind of knew. Yeah. And so she called me out, dude.

So she's like, you need to lose muscle. I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my two senses the, I don't want to hear you. Yeah, I know you don't. I'm going to give it to you. I mean, my two senses the answer lies in the eating.

Yeah. Is letting go of that. Yeah. That's where it lies. Because that, you can control both directions that way, the most there. Where if you truly just let that go or I'm like, oh, we're busy. I'm not going to eat right now. Who cares?

And just keep going longer. I'm trying. Yeah. That to me is where it lies. Otherwise, you know how easily you can tweak things with that to really change. I'm trying, dude. But it's literally, it's like the bumpers. It's like the bumpers.

It's like bulk cut. Big shred. Big shred. Strong shred. PR. You're cranking on the dial. Yeah. That's all.

I mean, you, it's so funny because I didn't know that about you because I met you right around Jitsu time. Yeah. And so, like, I didn't, like, I remember seeing you when we were, when we were young, when we're kids. 24. 24, you were crazy gorilla jack, right? I remember. Yeah. I was.

He was. All arms. He's like this. This all puffy and stuff, you know? So I remember. But jacked for sure. So I remember you looking at that, but then I remember seeing you jihitsu look way different.

So it never like dawned on me like, this guy probably has body body form because normally somebody who can do that has no form of that. And it's like very comfortable. Like you had a phase where you're jacked and you had a phase where you're like Jidicist's guy. It's not body dysmorphia anymore. I know that sounds weird after what I just said.

It's feeling capable. This is what's weird now. So it's like it's not so much about need to look a particular way. And that's cool and that's second place. But it's really about I feel, I think I feel more capable. when I'm controlling a certain things. It's more of a control thing.

Totally. And it makes me feel like I can handle things. It's very difficult. Like I'm the hardest person to ask for help. You guys know that. I don't want to, you know. So, okay, based off that, just to get deeper on you and stuff like that,

is do you notice you, when things in your life that you can't control very much so, do you tighten the reins up there? Do you notice? Is there a correlation between? You mean when things gets a little haywire? Yeah, yeah. Do I try to add more control?

Yeah. Of course. You do. Oh, yeah. That's when I'll try to numb myself more with substances or supplements or, you know, I'm trying to bolster myself so that I don't feel so, you know, incapable, if you will. Yeah. It's the illusion.

Look, I can say this up here, by the way. Logically, it's here. It's not here, though. I don't feel it yet. Yeah. I can sometimes, but I can logic it. I could talk about it. I can sell it.

could sell it. I could communicate to someone really well about it, but to feel it is very difficult. It's very, very hard. To feel weak, no thanks. I'd rather not. That's a tough one, dude. That's a tough one. Anyway, you know, staying on the, you know, you're switching back to what we were originally talking about with diet and stress bucket and all that stuff. You know, it's been the, my part I love about what we're doing right now. So I, this is, this is the nerdy side of me and this is what, and, I've actually felt a little conviction through this process of like I was so resistant of like bodybuilder Adam for so long because like I hated that. I felt like identity I had when we started. And I totally don't think I have that anymore. I don't think so. I think back to the people get surprised sometimes they see them like, wow, you look like that. Oh, they look at your own pictures.

Yeah, yeah. So actually I prefer that. I prefer that I'm not that guy, right? And so I've been so resistant of some of the things I did. that I forget some of the probably the value that I brought to the podcast through that journey too, you know, and so. You threw it all out. Yeah, because exactly. I threw it.

I don't care. You know, so I throw it all out. But I also know that a big motivator of what we do on this thing is to add value and help others. And I know, you know, by you by far are way more knowledgeable when it comes to research and science and understanding that, communicating that to the audience. what I'm into is the tracking and awareness of all those things and so and you're hyper

you're like really really yeah and I feel and I'm also noticing that I'm at a different stage of my life which different things are surfacing with the training stress, sleep, all those things are fascinating to me

and this last one with the whole like the amount of time that it took me I literally just last night this morning I got up and finally saw my readiness score in the high 70s. Yesterday, 47.

Oh, wow. I mean, just terrible. I also didn't get the greatest night of sleep. Plus, I wasn't fully recovered, so it just piled on that. And of course, to our staying on theme of what we're talking about, I'm in this really low calorie deficit right now

that I'm fully aware of. And the combination of that, and I don't have any other stresses going on. Like, home life is amazing. Business is great. Like, I'm super happy, good place. it's literally just physical stress that I put a lot of demanding physical stress in my body relative to the shape I was in. Somebody else might, you know, laugh at that.

That's a good point. Yeah, like someone else would laugh at it and go like. What your current fitness was, you know, versus what you started doing. Yeah, yeah. I mean. That's what you have to consider. Exactly. And that's hard because, and again, my brain goes like, I do, I've done way more.

I've pushed my body way hard. How could this possibly be affecting my readiness so much? How could I be, my sleep be disrupted this much? Right. But again, like, you know, I'm in a different stage of my life. I'm older. I'm more deconditioned. You know, the other thing that, like, light bulb for me that went off with, like,

just how quickly that deconditioning over time, like, creeps up on you. Like, and I know I teased you a little bit about when you talked about your speed of walking on the treadmill. But I, I have a very clear image of, like, when I would get up every morning and walk on that treadmill. And speed four incline was like a, like a stroll for me. where I would trip over my feet at that speed right now. And I had to start at like three, three, two, and work my way all the way up. And that's like subconsciously.

It's all walking. So it's not like a different form or modality. The natural speed is changing. Yeah. And also, again, like my natural conditioning and how I moved throughout the whole day and all those things. And so all these things are affected. That's the value of tracking so many things.

Because if you just thought or just felt, you wouldn't necessarily notice. At all. Yeah. Because I'm doing the same stuff. That's right. But I do notice that. And again, because I tracked even the speeds and stuff, I remember when I was first

getting on and getting back on my kick of walking on the treadmill. And I started to go up and it was like, and I was trying to multitask reading emails and stuff. I'm like, I can't even do this at 3.5. I'm like, this is weird. But I realized it like, wow, like how much I even lost the skill of doing something so basic as that. And I wouldn't say lost because I could still do it.

but how much it digress in that short period of time of just being inconsistent with that. And so, yeah, a lot of awareness around that, a lot of awareness right now around the managing the stress level in relation to it. It was really difficult for me the last three days to not train. Like I feel like one of the things I'm sure you feel too is like when you're dialed and you're feeling good. Yeah, and you're in a rhythm. It's like I'm at that place right now again too where when I'm going to bed early and I'm thinking I'm thinking about my workout. Oh, yeah. That's a good place to me.

I'm going to do this. And everyone's like, yeah, yeah. Like I'm excited to get my work. My bag's already packed for tomorrow. And I've already got like, I'm going to hit my element. I'm going to this. And so, and I like that feeling, right? And I'm excited.

And there's nothing more discouraging than getting up and then having a shit night of sleep and then seeing that. And then to tell myself, I'm not going to go do that. Like that, I'm having a hard time with that. That was, it was been more difficult than I thought it would. And so I told you off air. that I've been holding like this extra four or five pounds, even though everything's dialed, uh,

three of that came off that last night. Just what you said. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. It's all inflammation. Yep. Yeah.

Wow. I literally just, just really, imagine you overcorrected. I, or if I would have pushed through and done a, you'd be holding on a more, which would have you overcorrect even more.

Yeah. I know. Yeah. Isn't that cool? Uh-huh. Yeah. No, it's,

it's really interesting. And that's what you learned, uh, competing. Yeah. You learned all those things competing. Most, The thing that I loved about it is this part.

Yeah. Because I did really, the thing that did get me involved in health and fitness, I did enjoy, um, learning about myself selfishly. Like, you know, I like helping people. Um, but I, I really geeked out on like myself and my own health and those things. And this is why I like all those metrics because it gives me another thing other than just what I've read or a feeling. It's like, oh, I have measurable things that I, I've paid attention to.

And then it reminds me of communicating to so many clients, like how easily they get discouraged when they see that. I get discouraged. And I know the science. And I know what's going on. And I can still be discouraged. So, man, how many people out there are, they feel like they're, they're like, I know I'm eating good. That's why we say trust the process. Yeah.

I know I'm eating good. I know I'm in a deficit. I've hit the gym X amount of times this week. Like, why do I still look like this? Why is it still like? And it's just like, man, like, you're probably not accounting for how much. stress on the body and that extra little bit of inflammation that you're holding on is enough to make you feel fluffy and make you feel and even it register on a scale you're up a pound or two

and it's not going down and man how many people course correct or bail 100% did you guys I know you saw this just then you guys the whole the developments on noah's arc did have you seen this so guys i remember when they originally found this spot yeah yeah this is different well it's the same He's been able to go up there because of the government that's there. This is Mount Air Rat. But apparently because of the new technology with that ground penetrating radar that they used on like the pyramids and everything else, they found all these chambers under there to explore. Like, I guess there's motivation now to actually go.

They're going to dig it. Are there visuals? Yes. So you can see the top of it. So here's why this is a trip. By the way, this is one of many things. one of many things that have been proven correct by archaeological finds or historical evidence that the Bible said that everybody made fun of.

This is the dimensions and everything will trip you up. Okay. So first off, I'll tell you. Are they really that aligned? Listen. It is, so here's what's cool. When you read the Bible and you read about how Noah was instructed to build the ark,

it's very specific with the size and the length and the kind of wood used. So it's really easy to disprove. Number one, if you never find the ark, you can say, well, that was a fake story. But if you do find something that looks like the ark, you could easily say, well, the Bible said it was this long.

Yeah. The Bible said it was made with this wood. The Bible said it was this many floors and it's not. Well, here's what they're finding. It's the exact same length as described.

It is located in the exact same place that's described in the Bible. There are 26 boat anchor stones found in the vicinity, which are also described. They're finding, it is matching. Right, so these like big monolithic type, yeah, like rocks like that with a whole,

Yeah, so the holes where they would tie off, you know, those were like basically anchors that they'd throw off the boat. Now, and archaeologists and scientists are hating this right now. Why? Because it validates what sounds like from a scientific perspective, a crazy story. Yeah. Which, by the way, I looked up a bunch more.

I said, are there more of these kind of things that have been proven throughout history? And the answer is, there's a ton. So I'll tell you one of them, right? You guys know the story of Jericho and how the walls fell outward? Yeah. Because they marched around the city trumpets blaring, walls fell outward. They walked up the walls into the city. First of all, if you sack a town or a city, you knock the walls in.

Not out. Who knocks them out? That doesn't happen. They found it eventually. They found it and they found, oh, yeah, the walls fell out exactly as described in a way to where armies could march up. But there's a lot of stuff. that's in the Bible that has been proven.

I wish I knew all the details, but there was a podcast. This guy was describing the Shrouda Turin and all the different DNA evidence and like wild, wild stuff that totally aligns with it being authentic. It does, but here's a deal. Shrouted Turin wasn't talked about in the Bible.

My favorite things are things that are written in the Bible. So another one, Pontus Pilot. Pontus Pilate was the Roman politician or leader. who's the one that basically said, okay, crucify Christ. Well, for a long time, but we have no evidence this guy even existed. He's only spoken about in the Gospels. Well, in 1961, they found Latin dedications, Pontus Pilate, coins and a ring with his name.

So, like, oh, no, he's a real guy. And he existed right around the time that this would have happened. The pools of Bath, Beth, Estha, and Siloam, that's another one. the king David. Do you guys know that for a long time scholars thought that David, they said he was just a literal invention. He didn't really exist.

Then in 1993, they discovered inscriptions from the 9th century BC that refers to the king of the house of David. So it's like so many things, you know what my favorite one is? And I learned this one relatively recently.

For a long time, scientists said the universe was eternal. It's existed forever. It's always been there. Never had a beginning. And then when they looked out... Was it the Hubble?

Yeah. And they said, oh, it's expanding. And if you turn back time, that means it all started. It points it all back to a point. And it points to Genesis. And this, by the way, at the time, the scientists did not like this discovery because they said, well, this just confirms what the Bible says,

which is in the beginning. Yeah. And everything was created. So cool. Dude. But Noah's Ark is the wildest one because when I was, Is it happening right now? Yeah, dude.

So they're all in on it right now. Yeah, and they're digging down. Arc of the Covenants coming next. Ever since Indiana Jones. Yeah, dude. Yeah. So, I mean, if you ask me as an atheist and you said, what's the crazy, like, what story is the most made up?

I would have said Noah. Well, yeah, two of every animal, you know, this great flood. But like, there's so many flood myths in like every culture, too. And, like, it was the epic of Gilgamesh. And there's like a bunch of, like, really old text. that have like some kind of flood myth, but like that specifically had details of like how they built the boat, like, you know, animals involved, that whole thing. So I think it's so rare.

Interesting. And there's stuff you can look up, by the way, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, just one of my favorites. Until that point, we had read books, we had copies of books of the Old Testament that were written after the crucifixion of Christ. And so there's books of the Old Testament that predict how he was crucified, how we, how we'd be pierced, how he wrote on, you know, occult, like all these things. And so, you know, biblical scholars are like, look, these books have all these crazy predictions that actually happened. The odds of that, because, you know, were impossible. And everybody's like, yeah, but that book was written after.

There's no way. And then we find the Dead Sea Scrolls and we find copies of books that existed before. And so you're like, how could they possibly do that? Anyway, it's really cool stuff. Arc of the Covenants in Ethiopia. That is. Dude, is that what you think? Yeah, I'm going to call it.

Oh, I, when I hear that, I think, Indiana Jones. Yeah. Every time. I think the same thing, too. How you feeling, Doug? I feel like, really good. Yeah. This guy, dude, this guy's like, he gets sick and he bounces right back, huh?

I don't know. I don't know, dude, for sure the healthiest one at all of us. He's just, he's got an immune system that's like a horse. I know. I just don't get this guy. So you had a fever and now you're fine. Yeah, I woke up, well, it was kind of a 24-hour thing. So Rachel had the same thing on Sunday.

Oh, really? Yeah. And then I thought I got away with it. Doug's taxi said he got the Kung flu. You don't need to bring that out of it. Rachel's Chinese, everybody. I can't believe you said that. Doug's a lot of be racist.

I know, yes, dude. But yeah, I'd never get a 24-hour. I mean, I think once in my life had a 24-hour failure. Oh, really? If I have a fever, it's like days. And I definitely at least look like I had one the day before. You don't even look like you were sick yesterday. Yeah, it wiped out, though.

I woke up in the middle of the night on, Monday evening and I had chills and weak and I knew I was screwed. So what did you do yesterday? Just sleep? I slept. Oh, good. All right. All right. Speaking to Doug, because he's, this guy's, he always defies time as well.

Caldera's eye serum, Caldera Labs, eye serum. I got some clinical data from them on this. So the eye serum. You're the most consistent with that one. Every day, every day. I mean, I have a tendency towards very puffy. eyes and it drives me crazy. Yeah.

But the eye serum definitely helps. So what it's for, it's for dark circles. It's for eye puffiness. It's for that kind of stuff. So they did a four-week clinical user study. 78% saw less visible dark circles. 75% saw less puffiness. And 87% said under eyes appeared to be smoother.

So, and now they have peptides in there that are, that are in there specifically to do those things. And again, it's like this all natural. just like all of Caldera Labs products. Very natural. Works with the skin. Doesn't, like, strip the body of its microbiome. And it won best ice serum in the manual grooming awards.

What's cool about it is that I actually can see a difference the minute you do it, like right afterwards. It's not one of those things where you need to, like, oh, I need to do this for weeks. Oh, yeah, yeah, I notice it right away. So I don't know if you do. No, no, yeah. Every day I wake up, my eyes are puffy. And you put it on and you can tell a difference.

Oh, yeah, you right away. Yeah, that's true. That's what I mean, anything like that to me is, always, I mean, it's, it's an easy sell for me when I can see a difference. When you tell me about a supplement or a thing I have to take for extended period time, maybe I'll feel this, maybe I won't. And it's like, it's so, I'm so skeptical. But something that like you feel or notice a difference right away is cool. And that or that, and I don't, I don't use it as regularly as Doug. Doug uses it every day. I use it when I notice that. Like, if I wake up and I've got, which is not all the time. Yeah,

I'm a little more reactionary for it. So like, I haven't got much sleep and stress and I'm like noticing that. I'm just like, yeah, that's going to motivate me to kind of use it and see if I can help a bit. Oh, yeah. You'll notice a difference. You'll notice a difference right away. I like how they pay for studies too. There's a lot of products out there that'll make claims, but they... You go on their website. If you go on Caldera Labs website, they will have

clinical studies on their products to show just how much people notice a difference. Have you heard of this school, this high school? Adam, I'd be surprised if you didn't because when I read this, I'm like, dude, Adam would love this. It's called Founder school. Oh, yeah. And it's in New York. Have you heard of this? Yeah. Where did I hear it from? Who told me

about this? Bro. You want to hear what's crazy about it? I either just read about it somewhere or I know somebody. It's like a Gary V thing. Dude, so this is a high school. So trip off this. This is a crazy concept. It's not a huge school yet. It's just got 20 students. It's a brand new school. It's a $150,000 a year to go there. Sounds like a lot. Yeah, but you're mentored by other founders. Here's what they do. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. If a student doesn't build, a $1 million profit business by graduation, they get a full refund. Whoa.

I didn't know that. That's cool. If you go to this school and you're paying $150,000 a year, by the end of the term, four years later, if you don't have a business that's profiting a million dollars, they'll refund you your whole tool. Is that true?

Like if invite schools, it really hard to get in? You know what the percentage of businesses that are profitable by a million dollars are in the country? It's crazy. It's like a single digit. Look at that up for me, I want to say it's 4%.

So this is what they do. Students finish traditional academics by 11 a.m. So 11 a.m., they're done with traditional academics. The rest of the day is on building companies. That's so sick. Now, I'm wondering if the school itself gets a piece of the businesses. Yeah, you would think they'd probably... Yeah, I'm wondering, right?

Yeah. If like the schools like... Yeah, we'll get some of the business as well. It's got to. If that's the only way to make that a profitable way of doing things. That's the only way you could afford to give... Because here's the thing. I mean, $150,000 a year.

Because here's a thing. I'm going to have Doug look right now. And even if the school blasts the country average, which I expected to to be a school, right? The country average, the country average is like single digits. Yeah, no, here you are. One to two percent. Yeah. So the school has got to be.

Yeah, but think about this way too, Adam. And again, I'm just speaking, I'm just, you know, thinking out loud. First off, they probably pick the students. There's 20. So you got to make it. So number one, they're like, okay, who's most like. to do it. Right.

Number two, they got four years of a vested interest in coaching them and building them up to build these businesses. I mean, I would be interesting. And it's only 20 students?

Yeah, I want to get... Now, is it a million dollars profit or is a million dollar business? It says a million dollar profit business by graduation. It's what it's interesting.

Yeah, because that's such a rare thing to build a business that is a, building a million dollar business is enough, is impressive enough. I think that number is also even single digits.

For it to be a profitable million dollars, business. That's not just gross. You know, that's crazy. Most businesses to profit a million have to be doing close to $10 million. Yeah. So that's an unbelievable feat. Isn't this wild? It is cool. So, again, students finish traditional?

I didn't know that about that. Yeah, they're finishing. I heard about that. So I'll repeat this. Who started? Matt Eliasson. So it's built by Alpha School, which uses an AI accelerated mastery-based academic system. So listen to this. I'll read more, Adam. Check this out. 11 a.m. You're done with your normal school. The rest of the day is a founder boot camp with apprenticeships and real businesses.

So you're just, you're going to work, dude, for four years. Yeah. You're building businesses and you're doing an apprentice or you're being apprenticed by people who've built businesses. What a cooler idea for school. Wait, do you're kidding me? I would have, that would sign me up for that. So this guy, I would have loved it on something. Oh, I would have loved it done something on top. Listen, it says here led by Matt Eliasson. The first cohort is 20 freshmen. Matt says AI is the unlock, the expertise build up, the capital requirements, and the time used to take are all collapsing, which is why he thinks the 17-year-old now can build a million-dollar business. Early Alpha students have already generated over $30,000 in AI ventures.

The first, so we'll see. It says the first refund check would prove the model. 30,000 or 30-000? This is Alpha School. Now this is a different, I guess it's from them. Okay. And they're going to make this university. That's a wild concept.

I would think they would get some sort of a percentage, right? It makes sense that it would be built like Shark Tank a little bit. You know, so you're not only, you already, just like Shark Tank does, they're already filtering out good businesses as it is. And then they get to meet all the founders and they get to hear the whole breakdown. So again, thinking out loud, I'm looking at their time effort all that. So they're going to want to see something. Again, thinking out loud, you're looking at the AI potential revolution.

You're like, let's get some young kids in here. Let's find some talented generation. Who are going to dedicate, like, time and energy. We'll teach them. Yeah. And they're motivated to get a refund. on their, on their, you know, their tuition. Yeah.

I mean, they're going to probably come out with some bangers. Isn't that crazy? No, I think it's awesome. I'm so curious to see how it turns out. No, no, no, me too. It'll be, you know, be interesting to see. I'm, I think they're... Let me just start one here on the West Coast.

I mean, all they have to do is take a very small percentage of the successful ones because then, and then they can afford to refund other ones. If they don't take a percentage of that and they have to purely refund that, then you're playing a crazy math game. Like the likelihood of even, even in a school like that, like, what do you think, even if you're handpicking, if the nation's average is one to two percent, you think you could handpick 50 percent?

I don't know, that'd be crazy. That'd be crazy. Yeah, I think you'd be lucky to be 10 percent. So do why. That's why. I think, too. I mean, that's 10. But maybe what they're thinking is one of those is going to be, you know, 50 million.

Well, that's what I mean by that. That's what I mean by, they got to be, like, taking a 5% cut or 1% of the business they help build. then funds all the losses on all the other and makes up for all the, you know what I'm saying? Like it makes sense like that. Or maybe it's a way to advertise his AI education, which is what he's really trying to build.

I don't know. Yeah. I think it's crazy. I think what an opportunity. Are those 20 kids? What are a crazy opportunity to go there and just for most of the day for four years, you're learning how to build. I mean, I would love something like that.

You know, it reminds me. I would put my kid in that all day. I know. I was talking. to one of my buddies yesterday, actually from my group. And, you know, we often share on here any time that we were really wrong about something. And I have to admit how wrong I was about groups like that. I was really resistant to that type of stuff.

And I think there, I don't think that I'm, what do they call them? What are they like, mastery or? Yeah, the mastermind group. They have those names. Even the name makes me. Yeah. And you know what? There's a lot of grifters in it.

So I still think that there's a lot of crap. But I would have never, I would have never guessed the relationships I built, the friendships and bonds that I built in that, the knowledge that I gain and how much I learned. I mean, it was incredible. Perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I learned a lot.

I still learn. And now I have this network and circle, one of my friends just exited his boom pop. Shout out to Blake. That was a huge success. He just exited his company. He was going through that while we were together. So he just got that news, I think just like two weeks ago. So that was a huge, a huge deal.

They are responsible for, they're like the largest or second largest company that puts on events for big companies, like party events and organizes like retreats and stuff like that. So he scaled that and built that. Young entrepreneurs, man. These are all young, which was also fascinating for me to be the old guy, you know, I was the old guy, which felt really weird. I know. I'm the old guy up things now, too.

I used to always be the kid. I'm still in denial. I know. I'm still in denial of that. Yesterday, talking to Michael, right? We had Michael Smoke in here, which was such a great. Yeah, he's a great dude. Yeah.

I'm glad you guys got, because... And Will, his friend Will, just, just these, like, smart kids. I say kids, they're very sharp. They're grown men. I would say kids. Yeah. But they're just sharp. Well, they are, like, to us.

And I forget that, because I feel like I'm a peer. Yeah. I feel like we're all peers, you know what I'm saying? But, you know, it was very eye-opening how, you know, we are. We're a different generation. And cool to watch his journey from afar because, you know, obviously the two of them were big fans of mind-pump, you know, 10-plus years ago why they were 19 years old. Yeah, 19 years old. It's funny to me to see, like, a clear example of, like, that generation growing up with access to podcast, with access to, like, education everywhere.

Yeah. We didn't have that. No. You know, he's so educated. and quotes so many different people all the time, and it's like, well, it's just mind-blowing, you know, to listen to them. Do you guys think, like, I wonder, too, if, like, if we were the 19-year-olds at that time, like, would we, it could consume stuff?

Oh, I would have been a podcast fanatic. Yeah. I think so, too. I guarantee it, yeah. And he's, I used to read stuff because that's right, because he's such an example of, and he talks about it when we interviewed him, right? Like, that he just was consuming just alone, alone and consuming hours and hours and hours, and then you hear him communicate

and you just think this guy's got five degrees and he's been through all this crazy life. Totally. Yeah, it's so knowledgeable. He's just absorbed so much knowledge like that. It's so cool. Dude, I got to share something with you guys that I learned the other day. First of all, I like to look up

what the old, like, Orthodox and Catholic traditions will label the saints and to learn about their lives. Oh, I heard you talk about this. It's fascinating. They're really fascinating stories of why they are saints, why they're deemed as saints by these old traditions. how they lived, what they did, and just there's just so much crazy history there.

But I learned about this one guy, and they turned him into the patron saint of comedians. Oh, are they going to talk about the wrestling one? No, no, not that guy. So this is a different one. So this is the patron saint of comedians. Do you know what happened, dude? Huh.

So he was, the reason why he got executed was because the church was taking in money and treasure and keeping it, and he kept giving it to orphans and widows and defying the church. So eventually the church and the, you know, political establishment at that time executed him. And the way they executed him was they put him on essentially a barbecue. They had iron gates with fire underneath and they put him on top and they kill you. So hardcore.

Yes. Terrible, like terrible death. Do you know the quote that he has? This is why he's the patron saint of comedians. So he's burning on one side. He looks over at his executors and he says, turn me over. I'm done on this side. Oh, my God.

Dude. Gangster. Yes, dude. And so this is a very, this is a famous quote from. And a lot of these saints, when they're martyred, show this crazy courage while they're being executed where they, you know, it's like, hey, you know. Can you imagine.

Hey, don't cut my beard when you cut my head off, like comments like that. And so this guy's literally getting grilled. And he's like, hey, I'm done on the side. Turn me over. It's like, wow. Amazing, dude. They made of the Patriot State of Comedians. Oh, my God.

That's weird. Are you reading like a book that has all these? I have a book. and then I'll use AI and I'll start reading up about these different saints and then I look for historical evidence. Is there historical evidence or is this like just a story? And you would be shocked at some of the stuff that like these people have done and how they're recorded and it's like, oh my gosh, dude.

It's crazy. We don't know more about some of the stuff. That's wild. That's funny. Seed is the only company we work with that's a probiotic company. Now, probiotics have so many benefits. The data shows they can help with gut health. They can help with anxiety, depression.

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Our first caller is Kevin from Massachusetts. What's up, Kevin? How are you doing, Kevin? Hey, guys. Really appreciate you having me on today. You got it, man. How can we help? I'll stop by reading my email.

All right. I'm trying to decide which MAPS program would be the best fit for me, and I really appreciate your recommendation. To give you some background, I'm 37 years old, 5-7, and around 165 pounds. I've been skateboarding for over 25 years, essentially my entire life. I never had much interest in going to the gym because skateboarding was always my passion and the thing I focused on. Once I hit my 30s, the injuries started piling up.

Between 30 and 35, I had two foot surgeries and then hip surgery to repair my labrum. I spent a lot of that time rehabbing and trying to get healthy enough to get back on my board. After hip surgery, I was eventually able to skate again, but I started developing smaller nagging injuries. Nothing was necessarily serious, but it kept, it was. preventing me from skating consistently. That's when I decided to take my physical preparation more seriously and try to get in the best shape possible so I could hopefully continue to skate for many years. That decision led me to the gym and unexpectedly I completely fell in love with lifting.

When I started, I knew very little about lifting, so I spent a lot of time researching on how to perform the major lifts correctly. I started following a PPL program. on the ladder app, coached by a professional skateboarder who had similar goal of improving longevity to skateboard. I've now been lifting consistently for one year, nine months, and have followed that same program the entire time. Very rarely do I miss a workout, and I generally train five days a week, if not more. About nine months into lifting, I discovered mind pump, and it completely changed the way

I think about training, nutrition, recovery, and changing my physique. The information has genuinely been life-changing for me. Nutrition has been a big part of that transformation. For essentially my entire life, I naturally stayed between 150 and 155 pounds, regardless of what I ate or how active I was. I always ate relatively healthy, but I enjoyed the occasional pizza or other savory foods like that a couple times a week. For the first 10 months of lifting, I didn't track macros and looking back, I was significantly

under-eating, both protein and calories. After one specific podcast about nutrition, I changed my diet the very next day and moved to a roughly 95% whole-food diet. I gradually increased my calories and started tracking macros. Over roughly four months, I went from 155% of the food diet. pounds to 170 and eventually reaching around 3,000 calories and 200 grams of protein a day. The exact thing you said that, the exact thing you said what happened ended up happening. Even though I gained weight, I looked much leaner and was more muscular.

I've since settled around 165 pounds. I've also made significant strength gains during these less than two years of lifting. I listed out some of my heavy lifts in the email, or at least heavy for me. I know I'm still relatively new to lifting compared to someone who's trained for many years, but I feel I've developed a solid strength base for my training age. At the same time, I want to continue, I want to keep improving my foundational technique and movement quality. I don't want to simply move more weight. I want to become a better lifter and build a strong herbal body that will serve me

for the rest of my life. There's another part of my background that I'm wondering if you think is relevant when choosing a program for me. After skating for 25 years, I'm extremely comfortable with pain, discomfort, falling, getting back up, and pushing through physical hardship. That's essentially what skateboarding has been for me my whole life. I think I've developed a high tolerance for discomfort, and I'm getting to wonder whether that may actually work against me in this.

gym. Over the last year and a half, I've heard you guys talk about over-training and recovery, and I've struggled to figure out whether I'm actually doing too much. Because I'm less than two years into lifting, I don't have enough experience to know what too much feels like for me. I understand the concepts when you explain them, but I don't always know how to recognize that in myself. I don't leave the gym feeling overly sore. Sometimes after a heavy leg day, I'll feel it for a few days, but that's about it. Almost wrapped up here. I try to get around eight hours

asleep every night. If I get less than seven, I'll generally take it easier at the gym, but I found it very difficult not to take almost every set to within one to two reps of failure. Even though I've heard you guys talk about this constantly,

I don't yet have enough experience to intuitively know when I should push and when I should hold back. I genuinely love training hard, and my instinct is to almost always go hard. That's one of the reasons I'm interested in trying a MAPS program. While my current program seems very in line with what you guys talk about on the podcast, I'm hoping different structured program will be beneficial and help auto regulation

instead of simply trying to rely on my instinct to just go hard. Although my primary goal is longevity, for the next year or so, I like to maximize gains and physique change and then shift into a more long-term sustainable lifting routine. Yeah, thanks for calling in. Great job. Great job, dude. You're really strong, too. Yeah.

Yeah, great lives. So are you still, is skateboarding still a big part of your life? Is that still something you want to keep doing? No. It was. And then, I don't know, after like 10 months of lifting, and I started to see a little progress. I just like lifting now. Wow.

That's awesome. Yeah. No good. That really does change my answer quite a bit. But I'm going to back up a little bit just so you kind of understand. And this is good for listeners as well. It's kind of what started happening in your 30s with injuries. All right.

Because you skateboarded for a long time and suddenly injury after injury, depending on the type of sport. Okay. You'll see this happen. And it's not because your body is necessarily. necessarily old, but rather your tolerance and resilience starts to drop a little bit. So the amount of skateboarding and intensity you were doing in your 20s then started to become a little too much. And so this is how injuries start to pop up.

And so people do this happens with certain, especially very dynamic sports like skateboarding. Skateboarding requires an incredible level of proprioceptive ability and agility. And when you're a little overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that you're doing because your body's resilience goes down, then injury risk goes up. so you'll fall more and stuff like that happens. All right. Now back to your lifting. Your physique looks great.

You're real strong. You've got really good genetics. You respond really, really good to strength training. Yeah, you look like somebody who's been lifting for 10 years, bro. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. I think if you like what you're doing, you're lifting five days a week,

you seem to be doing okay with that much training volume. You mentioned MAPS Anabolic or MAPS Anabolic Advanced. I think you'd be fine with MAPS Anabolic Advance. And I think you'd see some really good strength gains from that program. Now following that, if you want like a long-term strategy, I would follow that up with symmetry. Then I'd go to something like performance and then something like power lift. And I think that would take you for like, I'll give you like a year almost of workout programming. And then as far as diet is concerned, you've got that dialed in, bro.

And I think you're going to keep building some muscle and just getting more of a quality look to your physique. But you've got really good genetics, dude. Your body responds really well to strength training. It's funny. I immediately, I would love to see you do like old time strength just because you're, you know, very resilient to struggle and pain. And it's like one of the most challenging programs we have for that, but like the gains for that is like unreal.

So, you know, consider that as one of the follow-ups down the road. I would, I would add something for you that I think if I was coaching, you, I'd want you to do just so I could teach you and show you this. You mentioned how, you know, and good self-awareness to know, like, you have that personality of like I can just beat myself up, get up and go. And so your your, your, your, um, gauge for pain and tolerance is probably a little skewed than the average person. And you're like, man, how much do I pull back, uh,

but I don't want to lose my gains and everything. So you'd be blown away if you ran like three weeks of like easy lifting. I mean, easy like five reps short of failure. Like just going through the movements. And I would make like, if we were training together, I would like make you do that just so you could see like, Oh shit. I trained that way and didn't lose any gains and my body feels really good.

Just so you could see like, okay, I could totally pull back way more than where I'm going and not go backwards at all. Now, maybe you won't see huge gains in those three weeks, but what you'll set you up for games. But what you'll feel is very recovered, just as strong, look just as good. And you're like, oh, wow, I'm half the intensity I was right before that. And so I would do that exercise with yourself. So just challenge yourself for a couple of weeks.

to like go way easier than you think you should be even close to and just watch what happens. And you'll be surprised how much you still keep your strength, how good you still look. And what you'll probably notice is you'll be so recovered. And then when you kind of, when you ramp the intensity back up, watch, watch the PRs, watch the gains come from that. So I think that would be a good exercise for somebody like you to do that. Well, I actually just moved. So I took the last 10 days off from lifting.

For the first time since I started lifting, really. I haven't taken any weeks off. But I'm all moved in. And after work today, I'm going to go to a new gym. Oh, that'll be exciting. So this would be interesting how you feel this first week. And many times, we talk about this on the podcast where we've learned this lesson where we'd have a vacation where we'd take off camping or something for a week and, you know, interrupts your training. Then I go back. Many times I'd be

stronger when I got back with all those days off. That normally is a sign that, okay, I was kind of pushing the rev limiter too much too often and I need to back off because just me taking a whole week off, I come back stronger. That's a sign that I needed that recovery. And so this will be good for you. Yeah, makes sense. I just because you guys talk about overtraining like so much and like at first, I just ignored it when I first started like listening because I'm like, oh, but now I'm like they talk about it all the time and like I go so hard all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I just don't know like I have no reference for what it that looks like. Well, what people do is they wait until they get the signs of burnout. Right. So it's like, oh, nagging injury and I'm going backwards and I feel like crap, but they could have they could have stopped that week to go ahead of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because then at that point you got to take time now to kind of get back to where you were type of

So structured, delode weeks and stuff like that, it just prevents that from happening. Well, and it's hard to gauge, too, if this is a new thing, to really find where those lines are for you personally. But, yeah, the more we can kind of, like, play around with that and do less and then kind of work our way up, you'll find that sweet spot. Yeah, especially when you're strong, dude. So the more weight you lift, the higher the volume on the body. And you're really strong. I mean, I saw some of your lifts. You weigh 165, and you got to, it says you're deadlifting three.

15 for reps and squatting 350. Yeah, bro. That's really strong, dude. Very strong. Yeah, so. No, thanks. You know, actually, like, at the end of last year, my, I started to have shoulder pain. Yeah.

And I got an MRI. I had a slight tear in my labor. So for the first half of this year, I only did, like, PT for my upper body. And I did legs. So, like, I went super hard on squats, deadlifts for, like, for like five months and because I couldn't like I couldn't bench

I couldn't really do anything upper body so I was like going hard with the PT and now I'm good like good I can do most upper body lifts now but that's why the legs MAPS had a ballic advanced has weak delode weeks in between the phases

do those schedule do that don't skip those do those and you'll be okay and then I don't know if you've heard me talk about on the podcast before but just kind of a general for longevity since we brought that up too. We always recommend that somebody runs at least one cycle a year

of either symmetry or performance. So if you do a good job of like so if you move in and out of Maps Advant, anabolic advance, you do the old time you like Justin was saying, as long as you interrupt in a year a cycle of either performance or symmetry,

that'll really make sure you do, you're getting a nice balance of unilateral, multi-planter move Mints, rotational work. That'll really keep you, the longevity game going for you. We'll send you Anabolic Advanced and then we'll write down a list of what you kind of want to follow with a discount code if you decide to continue beyond just anabolic advanced.

Yeah. No, I appreciate it. Thanks a lot, guys. You got some, great work, good work, man. All right. Later. He's got, I mean, if he's, if he's natural and he looks like that after lifting just for a year, he's got like competitor.

He does. He looks, yeah. He can't be natural. The physique guy. I mean, even not natural, that's still impressive. That's what I'm saying. I think he's, I don't know. I should have asked him.

I don't want to put him on the spot, but it doesn't matter. Even if he was taking testosterone, that's still incredible and impressive for that short a period of time. I mean, you know about a guy who said he didn't lift ever? All he did was skateboard and then all of a sudden touch weights for how long now? But, you know, again, going back to what he said about like, oh, I just got in my 30s, I started getting hurt. your body's tolerance for just lots of stress starts to lower. And so what used to be okay

becomes a little too much. That's impact trauma. Yeah. And then you're starting to get... Dude, that's those hard to bounce back. And then also agility is one of the first things that kind of go. You know, strength is much, much later.

Right. And so things that require a lot of agility can be... It'd be interesting to look at Tony Hawk and how he was able to stay... And dynamic. Yeah, yeah. And dynamic. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. I mean, you're talking about just the things required, like the ankle mobility. Yeah. Yeah. No one skateboard doesn't have a million injuries. Right. Yeah.

Our next caller is Jen from West Virginia. Hi, Jen. Hi, Jen. Hey, guys. How are you? Good. How you doing? All right.

Doing well. Thank you. I'm going to read my question only because I change it around just a little bit. Okay. So I'm a 49-year-old wife and mom of two adult sons and a former group fitness instructor. I started listening to your podcast many years ago. and took a lot of your advice to heart. I changed my lifestyle, started lifting really heavy, incorporating rest periods, which was really

difficult, dialed in my hormones, sleep and protein. For a while, though, I was doing a ton of volume in the gym and walking a lot and started wondering if I might actually being too much. I thought it might be time to follow a program and challenge myself mentally by doing less. So I chose Muscle Mommy 15. Honestly, I expected the biggest challenge to be mentally backing off the volume. I didn't expect to get much physically out of it, but I was completely wrong. During the last phase, I was hitting a new PR on almost every lift each week, and I was really surprised by it.

So now I'm wondering, if I want to continue making progress, should I stay with the last phase of Muscle Mommy 15 for a while and see how far I can take these lifts? or is there a point where I should move on to something like anabolic or another maps program? And my second question is how hard should I be continuing to push? At 49, how do I know when I've reached the point where I'm pushing enough weight that I'm increasing my risk of injury rather than getting a better training stimulus? I obviously want to continue getting stronger, but I want to be smart about longevity and not hurting myself chasing numbers. for context. I'm 5'4 and about 135 pounds. Yeah, good question. Yeah, you found the sweet spot and I would continue to work through the entire Maps 15 library. That's where you stay. You stay right in there. And what's great is we have

ones like performance and symmetry, which will address, you know, unilateral work and any sort of imbalances that you might have. And so that'll be play the longevity game for you. I'm a big fan of continuing to stay strong. But at one point, you do start. hitting numbers where, you know, the risk versus reward, especially if you are happy with your physique, you are relatively strong. Like, you know, I think that at some point, you just keep maintaining that and you keep going. So what it would look like, because I could, you know, I could ask you, what are your lifts and stuff like? It really depends on the person what, when the risk versus reward kind of ratio starts to fall out of favor. So what it kind of looks

like is this, Jen, is that when you're feeling stronger, there's a lot of ways to make the lift harder without adding weight. And so you can slow the rep down. You could pause at the bottom. You could squeeze a little harder. And those are all ways to make the exercise harder. Now, the time to add weight would be, if you want to keep it really safe, would be when the weight you're now using that you're trying to make feel hard just starts to feel like this is way too late. Then you go out. then you go up a little bit and then you're good. Where we tend to run into problems is when we're chasing the weight. So it's like, ooh, I think I might be able to do more.

Ooh, let me try and do a little bit more. Rather than being like, I think I could go a little slower or let me pause the squat, you know, halfway up for two seconds. Or let me try and see if I can hold it at the bottom for a second and a half. Or let me slow down the negative, you know, of this portion of the rep. So that's, you just play with stuff like that. And that keeps things pretty safe. And it also makes your technique really good.

Another great way to pursue PR still and seeing strength gains and doing so that is to introduce new lifts that you just don't really do. Like I use examples like the Turkish get up or a circus press or some of these move, a windmill, a weighted windmill. Like these are movements that typically people aren't as familiar with or maybe don't do all the time. And so it's like, you know, maybe you've been doing kind of the same, you know, deadlift squat and basically. movements and you've kind of hit a top, the tip, tipping point where it's really heavy and you're wondering, oh, should I go more? Hey, maybe I start to introduce a new movement that I really focus on trying to get stronger at. And that will allow a lot of runway of gains and PRs and all the benefits that you reap from that and just kind of move in and out of new movements like that,

which will also benefit longevity and everything else for you too. Now, I do have a question for you, if that's okay? Yes. Okay. Just because your ex-fitness instructor, you like to work out, You kind of fit in an avatar that sometimes under eats. Do you, what are your calories and protein and all that look like? Well, believe it or not, I used to be an overeater. So that's not been a problem. Actually, I talked to Rob a couple weeks ago when I was the middle of phase two. And he had me track for a week because I can get a little obsessive with numbers.

And I was between 26 and 3200 calories. Yeah, nice. Jen, you're kicking ass. Good. Good job. But my drawback is, is I probably average literally for the past 20 years, 20,000 steps a day. It's all right. It's not a drawback.

If you're used to it and it's not hurting you. Yeah, you're totally fine. Yeah. But you're getting stronger. So the 15 protocol, we have a whole library of those programs. Yep. So, you know, you just finished Muscle Mommy 15. You could go symmetry 15.

You can go power lift 15. You could go 15 performance. You could do the traditional math 15. move through those. You just keep rotating through the ones that sound interesting to you. And what's nice is if you do bounce around through those, you'll organically do what I was talking about, which is introducing some different lifts and movements. And so, you know, that'll allow you to focus on getting stronger there. How are you doing with the long rest periods? It's hard. I actually don't check my emails all day. And that's when I go through my emails and delete

them all. Oh, good. That'll help you. So I found a little hack for myself. Okay, good, good for you. Yeah, just keep working on that. I know how challenging that. That's challenging for everybody. It really is.

Yeah, especially for somebody who has, you know, group X background. So I know how tough that is. Let me send you the original Mass 15. It's actually one of the most balanced programs that we have. And that'll be your next one. Don't stay in a phase for a really long period of time because then problems start to pop up.

So, because that was your question. So I'll send you Mass 15 And then we'll send you We think the next order of 15 programs Would be best for you So you can you kind of know where to go Okay, that'd be great Thank you guys.

I really appreciate your time You got it. Thanks for calling in. Doing great. All right, thanks. I was pleasantly surprised By her caloric intake Because you know, group instructor

All that's like usually Yeah, it's pretty 1,600 calories a day. Yeah, yeah. No, she's kicking butt here. No, no, doing it really good. And listen, for people listening, everybody thinks when they follow

the Mass 15 programs that, oh, well, nothing's going to really have. Yeah. Everybody hits yards. Everyone. No, it's not like that. We have yet to have a caller, call in and say, yeah, I went backwards. Every single person is like, I can't believe my results. Our next caller is Katie from Texas.

Hi, Katie. Hey, Katie. Hello. Hello, how's it going? Good. How can we help you? Good. So I am back on the show.

I had reached out a little over a year ago. I had just wrapped up coaching and was starting to go through some maps programs and wanted to explore some things with a bigger range of motion. I'm pretty flexible and was starting to do the astrograss squats and all of that and seeing my quads explode. So you guys had recommended all-time strength. I've gone through it now a couple of times. Loved it. It is like exactly what I was looking for in terms of range of motion. my shoulders look amazing, my quads look amazing, everything has been awesome, lots of like

increased pro preception and everything too as far as just general like flexibility with strength incorporated. So awesome. I've loved that. I have also, I wrote in a while ago with this one. So in the, I guess, eight weeks or so since I wrote in, I did start Maps performance. Just in looking through the program, it was pretty similar in terms of. of what I was looking for as far as format.

So I really loved the three to four days a week with old time strength. So I've enjoyed that with performance as well. And that's a pretty good cadence for me just as far as overall lifestyle, trigger sessions in general. So I'm kind of looking for a third program to round out kind of my overall like annual plan, if you will. So really open to packing on some more muscle, some more strength and maybe something. that's a little bit. I know performance obviously has some of the like Playao incorporated.

So maybe we're looking at something with kind of like heavier, like strength and lower rep for this third program. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's generally where I'm looking. I will say just as far as like general context. I'm 32, five foot eight. I'm super consistently around like 155 pounds. I've been listening to you guys for about six years now. And when I first started listening, I was like in the like one 30s. So I've put on like a ton of muscle since then. I'm like 60 to 18% body fat now.

So I will say I'm like really open to putting on more muscle. But I have kind of like I'm still with these programs I've worked on. I'm still gaining a ton of strength. But I'm seeing myself more recomp rather than like packing on a ton of muscle. Because I've kind of like reached a point where like even if I eat a lot more, I still like my body likes 155. Like it's, I'm, I don't really track it that much, but, um, it seems like I've kind of like camped out there.

So I'm open to putting on more muscle and certainly open to like eating as much as I can. But I think just that context as far as I know that you guys kind of tend to like recommend the reverse diet, but done that a little bit and, um, I'm open to it. But, um, I mean, I would love to push you in that direction while running. And you like, do you like the four day a week or three day a week, which is. Yeah, yeah. So I usually do like every other day. So that's kind of a good cadence for me.

Upper lower would be upper lower and a high. Yeah, but power lift is three. It is three. So upper lower would be perfect and run it. And I really want that when we run that program in particular, I really want to push calories. Yeah, try to eat in a bowl. Let's push calories like we've never pushed before. You're in such a good place.

You're very, you're very lean. You're getting, like I think your body is just going to eat it up. And you'll get strong. and pack home. It'll feel great. Yeah. Katie, you're obviously, because you're getting stronger, you feel good. Hormones are probably pretty balanced because you're lean, but everything feels good. Okay. Yeah, I'm like super, super good, like health-wise.

Awesome. Do you generally eat kind of the same things every day? Like, if you were to look at your day, does it look kind of similar most days? Yes. So I will say, just as far as, like, meal-wise is concerned, I follow pretty consistent to what you guys have recommended. So kind of always hit my protein goal. I never am low on that. A lot of ground beef, a lot of good protein in there. And pretty good with that. So I usually eat like three big meals, but I will say I snack a lot throughout the day too. Just like I eat when I'm hungry. So it's,

pretty consistent. So if you stay with what you're doing, you're going to be healthy. You're going to still see progress. I feel very comfortable. It's all good. If you want to push it a little bit, then because you eat kind of generally similarly throughout the day, then an easy way to bulk or reverse diet without tracking is to take what you normally eat and just have larger portions. So it's literally like, this is what I normally will eat. So I'm going to add another two ounces of meat and another,

you know, quarter cup or half a cup of rice or whatever. Yep. And you just do that. That's if you want to push it. You actually don't have to, though, Katie. So if you're comfortable and you're happy and you're like, you know what, I feel good. Everything's great.

I don't think you need to do that. But if you're like, you know what, I want to see what I can do in the next three months, then definitely push the calories consistently on a daily basis. And that'll be like turbo. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah. That's something I've kind of, it's like I've reached a point where it's like I only can eat so much in a day. So it's like I've been trying like more olive oil or like a higher fat salad dressing or something there. So I think that's definitely, it's like a little bit. more with like the kind of core building blocks as far as meat and everything like that,

I definitely can lean in a little more there. Yeah. And it's just a trade off because, again, you said, like, I feel like I'm meeting a lot. Like, okay, there's a little bit of a decrease in quality of life when you're pushing a goal. I mean, that's a fact, right? So you got to ask yourself, like, is it worth it? Do I want to do it?

And you feel like, you know what? For the next three months, let me see what I can do. You just make the portions bigger each time you eat and then see how that feels. And if you're like, eh, I don't like it. Go back to what you were doing before. But you're killing it. You're doing great. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's been super fun too. I've loved, I think both of these programs have been like way, way different than it's like a squad and a bench press. And it's definitely been kind of what I'm looking for and like way more functional too as far as like my golf game's gotten better. It'll be fun to see, yeah, how you train with this more like bilateral kind of focus and really see your strength increase because you're so reinforced now and like protect it around your joints. I would be surprised if you weren't like hitting numbers, you'd never. Upper lower is more of a traditional bodybuilding split. Yeah.

And so it's going to feel different. But what you're going to get are pumps, muscle, shape, sculpt, which is fun. Totally different focus. It'll be great for you. It's also fun. I mean, I love you adding this because when I look at what you've been running already, it's like the perfect, like, if I could get a client to just run those programs every year. Yeah.

Like you're, you're touching it all, you know? That'll take you a long ways. Yeah. Yeah, it's been great. I definitely, it's like when I have brought in some of the, again, like the traditional back squats and things like that that that are in performance, it's like, wow, I feel so much better having all of the stability and in these kind of unique ranges of motion. So awesome, awesome. We'll send that up or lower to you. And I can't wait to hear. Let us know how it goes. Yeah. Awesome. I appreciate it, guys. I really excited to try it. Thank you. Right on. That was awesome. Great to hear. So here's an example. Of a young woman below 20%. Yeah.

But what she's communicating, I'm getting stronger. I feel good. I'm eating a lot. Hormones are good. Yeah. Cool. There's no reason to do anything. Well, this, so, and she said something that I think is really key, too.

It's like even when she says she feels like she pushes the calories, her body still hovers around away. And that's what a recomp looks like. It looks like you push calories. She builds a little muscle. She also has probably a few days in there that she's a little lower on calories and then she leans out. And so it's a very healthy, good place to be.

Our next caller is Jessica from Massachusetts. Jessica, welcome back. Hello. How are you? Hey, guys. How are you? Thanks for having me back. Yeah.

Also, pre-forewarning, I might have multiple children running into the room. So just sorry about that. No worries. We're used to it. Okay. Okay, perfect. Yep. Everybody should be napping, but you guys know how that goes.

I do. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it. It's been a good 60 days. So that's been really good. I think the update that I emailed in was just that after I talked with you guys, I actually went and got a Dexas scan, which was super informational and helpful. I think I needed those numbers.

And it came back pretty much saying the same thing you guys had said, too. I need to increase my calories. My RMR was wicked low for what it should be for my age and activity level, which was a bummer, but also a motivator because I don't want to be 70 years old eating 1,000 calories and gaining weight. So I really took what you guys said. I've been trying to apply it slowly, very slowly. I've only made it up to 1900 calories. but we're getting there.

And I think my big thing was consistency. I realized that although my numbers I gave were my goal each day, the actuality of me meeting them each day was probably 50-50. When I got really serious about like really tracking every single bite, I was like, wow, I'm not getting meeting them as I thought I kind of was. So that was super eye-opening. So I've been, the increase. of calories has been slow but steady and just trying to kind of keep it consistent if that makes

sense. Yeah, totally. Jessica, how scary has it been to bump your calories? I'm not going to lie, super scary. Intimidating. My husband had to be like a big motivator for me every day, just to accountability coach probably is the right word. Yeah. It's, It's really scary. I'm so glad you said that. You're honest about it because it's every day scary. It's every meal scary. And so it's not like, oh, I got to deal with this thing once a week.

It's like a, oh, here we go, breakfast. Now it's time for, now it's time for, and so it's this constant battle. Are you doing it on your own is going to be very, very, very difficult. And what's going to happen is what you've probably experienced, which is, 50-50. And what often happens in my experience with this, 50-50, is it's like I do well and then I make up for it on the other 50% of time. And so it's like I'm okay, but then now I'm going to do it a little,

I'm going to go a little lower than I normally would. And so it ends up being the same. What you're doing is you're managing it. Rather, or it's managing you, should I say, rather than you managing it. the solution and you mentioned your husband and he is your husband how many kids you guys have together we have three god bless you you got to outsource it to somebody and have them control it for you that's the only way and you have to literally go you tell me i'm just going to do what you say and that and that's it because as long as you keep your hands on it it's never going to be

it's always going to be a big challenge for you so you can could either be your husband. Now, I will caution you. Sometimes spouses can be the best and sometimes it can be the worst because if you, it's really hard to stop being coach and then be husband. Yeah. And if it starts to cause issues in your marriage, then it's not worth it. And so what ends up happening sometimes is the spouse goes, look, this isn't worth it. I'm not going to do this with you anymore. We're fighting over it or whatever. Or they push too hard because now they have They're invested differently because it's like you're my wife and I love you. The other thing, the other way to do it would be to have an outside coach do it for you.

And then just let go. And it's the letting go piece that's going to solve this for you. Okay. You have to let go long enough for you to realize it's okay to let go. And that's probably going to take a year. It'll probably take a year of you letting go before you're like, I'm okay. have you been listening to the journey with karenne and i slowly i have to say i've not been now that school's back in session i'm hoping to kind of get back into listening to everything

yeah yeah that typically we were just talking about that before we got on there how much uh our listens uh skyrocket come septemberish because everybody's kids are back in school now everybody can get back on to on listening so it's wild how that follows that pattern so yeah so um you know and i i want to share that with you just because here you you have a brilliant coach. She's arguably our best, one of our best coaches. And she still struggles with this. We've been together now for almost a year.

You and her? Yeah. Doing this year. Yeah. It's been almost a year. And I'm sure she would openly admit with you, it's still really hard. And I still, and so what I, and what a coach knows to do and what I do with her is, I push her.

And I push her as hard and as long as I can. and we're constantly talking and I can kind of start to feel when it's really wearing on her and she's struggling with it and then I'll just ask her I said, hey, do you need a break? And sometimes she'll go,

no, no, I'm okay. Let's push through. And other times she'll say, yeah, this has been a really rough couple weeks and I'm going through it and can I get a little bit of break? And then I'll pull her back. I'll pull her back

and relieve her of some of the calorie push that we're doing and then let her kind of get comfortable again about how you doing? I'm doing good, I'm feeling good. Okay, good. Can I start to push you again? Yeah, yeah, okay.

And then it's a push and pull. There's no, I don't have a blueprint of, oh, for this many weeks, we do this. And it's like, it's a team effort. And I'm constantly checking in with her on, we're on a break right now. Like we just, I just had to relieve her. I had been pushing her for a while on the calories. We got all the way up to like the high 2,600 plus. And yeah, and that's really high, very, very high for her.

And I had her there for a few weeks. And she's just like, man, Adam, I'm really, I'm going through it. I'm having a hard time. I say, okay, we'll pull back. And so then I'll pull her back to more like 21, 200, 22. And then we kind of do that. And again, there's no like a mathematical formula of what it looks like. It's a lot of her and I working together through this process.

And over that time, she's gotten more and more comfortable. And the thing that always blows my mind when I'm helping someone like this, because I haven't been coaching in a long time. And so it's reopened my eyes with her. It is wild to me how many everybody else is constantly telling her, how amazing she looks and how good she's doing, yet she doesn't see and feel herself that way. And so I get it.

I get it. I know it's hard, but the value of outsourcing that to somebody is massive. And if this is something you really want to get through, that would be my recommendation is look into, you know, one of our coaches helping you through something like that because I know how hard it can be.

I actually did hop on pretty quickly after I talked with you guys. and scheduled a coaching appointment. Yeah. And had a really good chat with Robert. Yeah. Super awesome guy. And we kind of decided, and then my husband and I decided, clearly I still have some things to work through in terms of my relationship around food.

So we kind of decided that my first step is starting therapy again. Good. Going back to it. Good. Getting back in it. Have you going? Clearly needed at this time of life. Have you gone? Have you done it? Yes. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Good job. Very much so. Good job. Good for you. Thank you. Good job. No, no, no. Very good. You're doing good. You're doing good. I appreciate it. I'm not one to talk about my feelings. So this is definitely another push for me, but I think it's a very healthy one. And then my next step is once I kind of feel like my relationship gets better, I want to invest in the coaching piece of it.

love that. I think that's a great. I think it's a wonderful decision because what's great and you said something that's so important is that you're not one to share your feelings and that already is work that you're doing probably with the therapist. Is that you get more comfortable and good with that? You'll be better coached. You'll be better coached because that's what's great about a good coach is it's a little bit of that too. Obviously it's not just the macros numbers and the programming. It's a lot of that. And so the more comfortable you are with sharing with a coach, the better they can be, the better they can coach you. And so wonderful step, you are doing. great. So two things, now that I know that, so I'm going to give you two things that I've seen

that helps an experience, but also based on the data. Okay. So two things. Number one, Shane can play a nasty role in anything like this because this journey is going to be littered with stepbacks. It's just the way it is. There's going to be, nobody's ever gone on a journey to solve a challenge without there being setbacks. Everybody has them. The challenge, the real challenge is the shame, especially when it's repeated. Like, I thought I fixed that. I thought I did that. Like, what did I do? Like, what's going on? You have to completely give yourself grace. And there's one way you can do this. Now, if you have a faith, then you can ask for grace from your creator good. And he'll give it to you. And so I say, do that. If that's you, then go on that.

I don't have to give you the other part of it. Then, okay? I'm very faith-faced. Good, good. Then you go there because, you know, he gives it to you. Okay. And there is no shame in those of us who follow him. So that's very, very, very important. Here's a second thing. This is the data shows. If we get, we can get, you know, where we talk about our feelings and process things out. But what we need to also do is have a sense of purpose, okay, that is not necessarily related to this goal. And so sometimes what the data shows, what works, oftentimes is that somebody says, okay, I have this new thing I'm going to go after.

And I don't care what it is. It can be painting. It could be, you know. riding my bike, it could be volunteer work, it could be something, but aim your direct, aim towards something that gives you kind of this new sense of purpose a little bit. And what the data shows is it makes therapy way more effective. Because sometimes what can happen with therapy is we get stuck in this. Because it takes the focus off yourself.

It is. And what can happen is like I'm trying to outthink, you know, for example, if I go and talk about my depression, I'm trying to talk my way out of depression and think by when there's an act part that is a big piece of this. And so it could be anything. It could be anything at all. You're like, oh, you know what? I'm going to start, I'm going to get into this kind of hobby. And you just kind of focus on that a little bit. It could be volunteer work, which that's one of my favorites. I find when I serve, man, it's like other things start to kind of melt away. So if you combine that with therapy, now you've got the like, you know, thinking, talking,

empathizing, and then some kind of action. And it's not related. It's not like I'm going to, oh, this thing with my food or this thing with my fitness. It could be something else. No, in fact, it's supposed to take your thoughts off of that. That's right. One of the things that can happen with someone. Ruminate. Exactly is you can over think the food thing where you're focused on it so much.

That's right. And that could be just as unhealthy, right? And so something that brings you joy and it gives you a little bit of purpose. I think that's a great idea because I think during therapy, you talk so much about food, that it does become your constant wheelhouse. Yes. Yes. It's not supposed to be.

One of the things we've started doing is I meal prep every single meal, so it takes the thought of food daily out of it. Yeah, yeah, good. But just to give you an illustration, so Arthur Brooks is a really good Arthur. I don't know, do you know who Arthur Brooks is? I feel like either you've said his name or I've heard it before. We've had him on the podcast like three times. Awesome. Yeah.

I suggest you follow him because he's very helpful. He uses this great illustration. He takes a glass. He says, imagine this glass with a little bit of mud at the bottom and it's got water in it. and you go to therapy and you stir the glass. And so all this mud comes up in there constantly. He goes, another thing you could do is you could just are adding more clean water.

And eventually the dirt starts to come out and you start to get more clean water in the glass than just dirt. So those are both the things. So stirring the glass is the talking. It's like, okay, what do I got to do now? Now, okay, I'm done talking. Let me have an action that brings me a little bit of joy and a little bit of purpose. And so when you combine those two in the data, it makes the therapy so much more. This is one of the reason why exercise is such a great, a great combination with therapy.

It just isn't great for those of us who are fitness fanatics. If I go to a therapist, then they tell me the exercise, I'm going to be like, all right, let's go. I know. We probably aren't going to vibe for what I need right now. Exactly. Yeah, very good. Yeah, you're doing good.

It'll be a journey, but I'm hopeful that we can get through it. As I've learned, you think you can move through it and it's gone forever, but it's not and kind of always, we'll always be there about how you manage it. Well, you are, you got broken, sinful flesh. It's always going to be there. So that's just, that's a story for all of us. So at least you're aware of yours. You're taking great steps already.

You're doing a great job. Keep us in the loop. We'll be there for you when you're ready. Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Jessica. Have a good one. Hi.

I'm so glad she's working with somebody. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that would be the other step. If you wouldn't allow one of my coaches. And honestly, it's not a bad, she said something I think that's so important. Because even a great coach, if you're not willing to share, be honest, and open up.

You can't coach you. I can't coach you, right? Which, when the flip side, Adam, what I said about doing something, this is why coaching can be so effective. If you're willing to share and be honest, the coach gives you actions. They also empathize and whatever.

They're not therapists, but they'll give you grace and empathize. Our coaches are coached on grace because that's such an important part of coaching. But then they give you an action. So you've got this wonderful combination of like, okay, this person understands and they're telling me to do something. It's very effective. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media.

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