Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 419: Aubrey Marcus- ONNIT Founder Talks Sex, Drugs & Business with the Mind Pump Crew

Episode Date: December 15, 2016

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin interview Aubrey Marcus, the founder and CEO of Onnit. Aubrey has not only built a wildly successful business with over 250 products ranging from peak performance supplements to foods, fitness equipment, and apparel, he also has a very unique perspective on life and relationships. This episode is guaranteed to make you pause and think as well as entertain. Learn more about Aubrey and Onnit at www.onnit.com MAPS Prime is live Friday 12/16/16. Find it then at www.mindpumpmedia.com Please subscribe, rate and review this show! Each week our favorite reviewers are announced on the show and sent Mind Pump T-shirts!

It's finally holy shit it's here what's ready finally here maps yellow aka maps prime Oh my god finally. It's coming to you by Friday Friday. We're gonna launch it This is our most ambitious and original maps program yet nothing fucking out there like it if you want to know more Information about it you go to the mind pump show Facebook. We did a Facebook live and we covered pretty much everything you need today. We talk about the whole thing. You can learn all about it. It is launching Friday. You will get access to it.

Now, when this airs, it should be available to the forum as well early. So if you want early access and an additional discount, become a member of the forum. Otherwise, look out for it Friday. Maps Prime, come in that chair. Make sure you get it early. free t-shirts coming with it. It's coming in hot.

You'll find it at mindpumpmedia.com. If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind, pop, mind, pop with your hosts. Salta Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Hey, mind pump listeners. You're gonna hear us interview a very interesting fellow. One of the leaders of kind of other fucking man.

Yeah, of a movement in the fitness industry. It's Aubrey Marcus, the founder of Onnet. Probably one of the one supplement companies we don't talk crap about. Yeah, very few. Yeah, so we talked to them about business, but then we talked to them a lot about personal stuff. Very interesting episode.

Got into some of his Ayuoska experiences. Ayuoska experiences his philosophy on open relationships, a little bit of fitness stuff thrown in there. You can go to his website on it.com or you can listen to his podcast, he actually hosts a podcast called the Aubrey Marcus podcast. So here we go.

I want to hear the origin story. Okay. Yeah. I want to hear how this starts because on our show we talk so much crap about the supplement industry and the fitness industry and since the beginning on it kind of stood out to us as a company that we respected because of the direction you guys go and you're not like the typical bodybuilding supplements, you're not the typical bullshit type of stuff.

And so I'm interested to know what got you to start on it with the order. Well, can I get him to, I don't want him to start too like too fast forward, can I get you to go further back to like because I don't know much about your childhood and upbringing too. So that's, I'm curious about that where that started and what drove you to be the man you are today and then on it. I think the, you know, the origin story of on and all that kind of ties in because, you know, my stepmother was kind of the nutritional doctor for all of Pat Riley's teams.

And that was a huge basketball player. Oh, shit. Basketball player. So it was the Lakers in the 80s. It was the Nix in the 90s, the Heat in the 2000s. But anyways, growing up, you know, I was, I was always Lakers in the 80s, it was the Nix in the 90s, the heat in the 2000s. But anyways, growing up, I was always playing ball and doing well in school, doing what I could. And every time I would have a game, I would get a stack of supplements that would be laid out on

a napkin or a paper towel. And I wouldn't know what the hell they were. I would just know that this is game day. So I'm going to take this paper towel full of supplements. And I could tell a noticeable difference versus like a practice day or your regular day. And on test day, I didn't know what supplements I was taking either, but I knew that there were a different set of supplements, different shapes, different color vitamins, and different kind of preparation for that. And so I got used to that paradigm of taking things

and doing things that would improve my performance and specific things. And I think that early conditioning got me used to that idea like, okay, input equals output. There's things that I can do, ways that I can prepare myself that's going to yield a better performance. And that always stuck with me. And that was something that I continued to apply through my life, whatever I was doing, even in a social setting, even in party setting. Like, how do I prepare to rage all night at the club?

What is the best thing I can do, and then how is the best way I can recover? That was part of the on-it-origen story as well, is coming up with nutrient combinations that helped you recover from when you were exhausted, whether it was from party and work and or overtraining, and then transition that when I got with Joe Rogan, our partner in this beautiful project we have here and asked him, you know, all right, Joe, what do you think you would like to

take the most? And he said, I would love a Neutropic. And I said, all right, we'll get to work and we'll make the best Neutropic we possibly can, combining the research, the access that we had to the athletes and doctors and all the knowledge that I had gained from that paper towel of supplements that I used to take that eventually I started to learn what they were when I got to being a doctor

because I couldn't just stop by my step-mom's house and get the paper towel, eventually I had to wipe my own ass and figure out the supplements on my own and put that all together and that launched alpha brain and really with alpha brain I think was the start of on its true origins. So that was your first me product with Alpha Brain? We flirted around with some party recovery supplements, just basically making something that would be convenient for myself.

Things instead of when I'm all hungover, taking nine different bottles of supplements, which I was oftentimes too lazy to do, I was like, man, I'd really love this. This was just in one pill and I could take it. And so it was, you know, in some ways, born out of that necessity. But really, you know, as, again, you know, me kind of growing up through my journey, that kind of party lifestyle was more indicative of me being unhappy with what I was doing as, you know, professionally. So as I transitioned to being more enthusiastic, of course, then alpha brain became the ideal

supplement for myself as well as something that could fuel my focus and mental capacity rather than just help me recover from a night of ridiculous debauching. And that was like five, six years ago? That was July 2011 we launched alpha. Well, say pretty, I mean, great foresight, right? Because at that time, Neutropics were kind of this underground. It wasn't like this thing that athletes were using.

You had some pre-limit lists. That's what I always tell people. Yeah, yeah. It was after that movie, everybody was interested. But before that, man, you had to be kind of ahead of the game to be already. And you were kind of marketing it towards athletes at that time.

And I don't think Neutropics really were really marketed to athletes, which is kind of fascinating. We were marketing it towards anybody who is trying to improve performance. And athletes in particular have more on the line. I mean, athletes term loosely, because we were really actually targeting poker players and it's kind of a lot of more of the mental athletes, as well as some of the other more traditional physical athletes, but that just kind of gravitated towards our product. But anybody who relied on performance as part of their success was really kind of our niche. And so many times supplement companies were trying to cure a disease condition, which first

of all, it didn't even legal. You're not allowed to go out and try and cure diseases with supplements. That's the realm of pharmaceuticals. You know, really what you're supposed to do is help people who are relatively good become great or help people who are healthy become even better. And that's, we just decided that's the reason that I use supplements and that's what I wanted to focus on. It's just finding ways to help everyday people improve their performance in dramatic ways

and do it with something you could feel. You know, all the other times too many supplements it was like you take it and 90% of what you felt was imagination. You know, like, I think it's good. For me, I heard it was good for me. They're saying it's good for me, but you didn't feel shit.

Well, you guys funded a double-blind placebo-controlled study. Two double-blind. Oh, two on alpha-brain alone. What did they show? And I'm familiar with one of them. I don't know there was two of them. Yeah, both of them done by the Boston Center for Memory, both of them backing up the research.

So one of them was a smaller kind of pilot trial, and then we backed a larger trial. And you know, over 60 people in the trials combined. And what it showed is improvement in executive function, improvement in focus, improvement in reaction time of the brain, like the brain's ability to receive stimulus and then register that stimulus. We hook people up to an EEG. And we actually even track too that we showed that from the EEG testing versus placebo, that alpha brain was effective after the first dose. So again, that idea is this isn't something you have to take. And then two weeks later you imagine you're feeling better.

It's something that you can take it and you can feel it. And I think that's been the hallmark of the on its supplements, is you take it, you notice it, and you're like, oh shit, something's different. And that's really what been kind of the guiding star of most of what we do. Now, when you had this, was this always the vision, was it just a supplement coming? Because you guys are so much more than that. No, so much more than that. No. So much more than that. Yeah.

So did you, did you foresee all the other things that you guys going on with the honored academy and the mace bells and the kettlebell? Like, did you see all that at the back to enter? Well, it's something that I knew from my own life was essential. You can't just, there's no magic pills. Oh, there ain't no limitless pills. No, there's no magic bridge, right? You can't, you can't just do one thing and hope to achieve success.

Everything is connected. You know, your mind, your preparation, your body, your emotional state, your everything goes into it and supplements are just one piece of that puzzle. So it's like if we're going to promote something that's really going to help people get from good to great, help people get from okay to good, whatever, whatever their goal is, we got to talk about everything and that's where that total human optimization package was born. So what kind of fitness routines and what kind of equipment is going to best work with the body to bring out the maximum potential, what kind of nutritional protocol, what kind

of mindset programs. And then even all the way down to personal care, people don't realize that what you put on your body gets in your body. Your skin is not this impermeable tupperware. This is living breathing. And the stuff we put on our body gets in our body. You know, I came to that conclusion

not that long ago where I realized, I was paying attention to my nutrition, then I was paying attention to the types of supplements I was taking. And then I'm like, holy shit, look at my hairspray, my gel, my deodorodorant like this is the stuff I put on yeah my toothpaste like why does my toothpaste have Chemicals in it that make it sud, you know create bubbles. You know you you realize that that does nothing to clean your teeth

No, it's just because consumers like to have Suts in their mouth when they brush your teeth and it makes them feel like they're they're doing a better job Which which where did that evolve? Where did that come from when you think about it? That's all concern. I think it's consumer driven. People think they want something, they associate, suds with cleaning, like you wash your hands and it gets bubbles and like, oh, it's getting cleaner.

So sodium lorosulfate. Yeah, so they put this in there, so you get these bubbles in your mouth. And reality, just brush your teeth with water or baking soda and you're probably just as fine. Get to go. So your personal, you know, you have this personal drive for kind of self explorationexploration and that's what

drove you to start on it and then it sounds like you want to help people with it. But your drive for self-exploration didn't stop or doesn't end with supplements. I've heard you under the podcast talk quite a bit about using things like Ioska and learning things about yourself through that and it seems like that's just an extension of almost an extension of on it and what you're doing. I mean, well, I think on it plays a key part in the role because the first thing you got to pay attention to is the body. You know, like this is our home, right? And we got to shore that we got to shore that up because you look at any animal and I think sometimes we fail to look at ourselves like an animal. We think, oh, we're a person and our mind everything, like we're an animal, and things are gonna be coming up from the body that are gonna translate into thoughts,

and translate into different ways we perceive the world. I mean, you go up to a tiger that's well fed and healthy, there's a good chance you might wanna play, it's a good chance you might wanna hang out, you go up to a tiger that's sick and hungry and exhausted, that tiger's gonna fuck you up, like he doesn't give a shit about you. He's like, and that's the way people are.

When people are sick and exhausted, and tired, and their body isn't right, they don't give a shit about the world. They don't care about other people. They're not gonna look at another person who's saying something shitty to them as them living a different life. They're not gonna come from a compassionate place.

They're not gonna take the steps to make this a better game that we can all mutually play together. They're just going to take the steps to make this a better game that we can all mutually play together. They're just going to look out for themselves. We get very myopic when we're not well. And so on it, you know, the goal of on it is to get people to a state where their body is thriving. And if their body is thriving, then you can start working on their consciousness, then you can start working on spirituality, you know, honing in your emotional states and different practice. So the body's like the bottom. It's the bottom. Start with that.

Like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you gotta take care of the body first. And of course, a lot of people want to be of service to the world, you know. But in order to be of service, you gotta be fit for service. And part of being fit for service is to making sure that your body

is also fit for service. So the evolution of that is body, and then you go to mind and then spirit, and then take it from there. So something we talk a lot about is, we're three kind of meathead-looking guys, but we all have different backgrounds and fitness. And one of the things,

I know you kind of got that Game of Thrones vibe. Oh, Jason. That's just my mouth. That's just right now, bro. That's just right now. No, my face is a baby face going on. So he's a meathead. That's just me trying to top in my lookup right now.

But one of the things that we try and preach all day long on our show is just that people want to put us in a box, man. They want everybody to be in this box of like, oh, you're in this camp, so you do only do this, or oh, you do this, or oh, you do that. And one of the things that always turned me on about your company was you guys were introducing things

like the Mays Bell and Catbells and tools like this. They've been around forever and I'm a bodybuilder, right? So I'm supposed to lift a certain way. I supposed to go over and use all these machine exercises and do finisher moves and do all this bullshit exercises that all bodybuilders do. And I always always looked at really weird because I'd be using Kettlebells and tool Indian clubs and tools like this. What led you down that path to start utilizing tools

that have been around forever like that? Why aren't you just using dumbbells and basic tools out there? Honestly, that came from my exposure to really high level athletes in really dynamic sports. So one of my best friends was Bodhi Miller, who was an Olympic skier,

and then also was friends with a lot of MMA fighters. And watching the type of training they did, I mean, nothing in those sports is linear. You know, everything you're adapting to terrain, you're adapting to conditions, and to just do, to go to the gym and just for a body to just do squats and lunges, like not gonna be enough. For a fighter to just do bench press and pull ups,

not gonna be enough. So they started to be kind of the innov to just do bench press and pull-ups, not going to be enough. So, they started to be kind of the innovators and early adapters to these movement patterns. And so, you know, the kettlebells were starting to creep in, but then we looked a little deeper and saw that, all right, well, people have been solving this problem for a long time. And then the Persian-Pelwani elite and some of the elite warriors from our past developed like Mace training, which they call Gata, and then the Indian club training, which were the heavy wooden clubs at that point. And they were doing that to overtrain movements that they were using in battle, these kind of rotational circular movements.

And that's really what we're using more often than not in any kind of dynamics board. And it also works with the body a lot better. It's not overloading certain systems and then causing others to compensate and creating these really structurally funny but aesthetically pleasing conditions within the body. So, you know, just following that path to its fruition and knowing that everything has a place. There is a place for barbells and the heavy weights

and stacking on and getting to maximum load. And then there is a plate for completely restorative, kind of myofascial and durability training. And then there's that place for those bridges in between where you're doing Mace 360s and work in the shoulder girdle and your inner costals and getting everything to work together. And of course, then other disciplines like yoga and all of these things filling in the gap

so that you could create an optionally functioning human. Well, you say that so non-shalom, but don't you feel like nobody else is really giving this message, right? I mean, this is, I mean, if you were to listen to our show, you would know that we feel so alone in this, in the fitness industry that no one is like that. You guys are probably the only other company I could think of

that we've been using Indian clothes for a long time, and I think you're the first company that has really highlighted that, is a valid tool that I was teaching clients a long time ago. And you're not just married to that, right? Yeah, exactly. I think what's interesting is,

and we're starting to see this now with a lot of different markets, but fitness, health and wellness is doing this now, is we moved away from what was old and to what was new, and now what was old is new again. We're going back and we're revisiting. You talk about we're just animals, right? Which is, it's so fucking true. I've talked about this in the past. We think we're so complex and so smart, but look at the clothes we wear, look at the shit we do, look at women wearing

high heels and makeup, and look at the way we comb our hair. Those are all driven by animal instincts. Some of these ancient cultures, the way they've developed some of these exercise techniques and movements, they didn't have the science to explain why they work so well. We do now, but we see why they work so well. Yoga, yoga is very, very, very old. I can't think of one particular discipline that builds functional flexibility quite as well as yoga. Now, if you combine a bunch of different things,

you can kind of get there. But by itself, I can't think of anything that does as good of a job as making you strong within ranges of motion like yoga does. And yoga's old is hell. You know, you're talking about these clubs, Indian clubs There's some pictures of some Indian wrestlers. Oh, this is back in the 1800s and before 13th century it goes back to where these guys

We're working out with with these devices doing these movements that they weren't they didn't know like this is deltoid and Tricep and I'm working in within this VO2 max It's like we've done this now for thousands of years it works works. And when I do this, I can kick another guy's ass and I'm better-shake. Well, even then though, the people, the people now that are in a camp though still, that's what drives me crazy. How often do you meet somebody who's into yoga,

but then also deadlifts, three, 400 pounds? You know what I'm saying? How often do you meet somebody that's all into Indian clubs and they're out using them? You know what I'm saying? I feel like I think people fall into the trap of using certain identity to shit on other people. And it's this weird thing. It doesn't matter if it's veganism or unconventional club and kettlebell training or barbell

training. It's like, this is my thing and everything else sucks, so I'm better than you. And that's all just tribalism. It's all just games of the ego. Yeah, it's a form of tribe. It's the dark side of tribalism, right, where you identify with a certain group and then shit on everybody else. And that's nonsense. And I think one of the strengths of on it is to be inclusive, to say no matter what is

out there, we'll look at the strengths and we'll appreciate those and say, man, you guys are doing this really good. And what about this other stuff? This other stuff's really good too. And with that attitude, I think you get the best results. And you also start to build bridges between these different camps. Where are the truth lies?

The truth lies that there's good and everything. There's good and crossfit. There's good and body building. There's good and unconventional training. There's good in all these things. There's weaknesses in all these things. Let's try and harness as many strengths as we can. Let's try and harness as many strengths as we can. Let's try to eliminate as many weaknesses as we can

and then create the most well-rounded picture that we can build. Where are you into fitness before you did all this? You were saying, Yeah, I've been an athlete in a variety of ways my whole life. Never great enough in anything to be like known, but good enough at most things. So were you educated in fitness as well?

Through just the performance training that I had to do. Everything was very, very functionally based. Like if I want to increase my vertical jump, all right, these are the plyometrics that are necessary for this. If I need to increase speed, quickness, whatever attributes strength, and working with really talented trainers

and then training beyond the point that I was competing with elite athletes who were doing that for a living. And then figuring out, oh, so why are you doing this? What's your warm up routine? Why are you doing this? Okay, here we go. I remember going out like, particularly to use Bodhi again, as an example, like going to Bodhi for a park workout,

sounds like fun. It's like, hey, you wanna go to the park and workout? And then I'm doing lateral jumps over a fucking picnic table. And I'm like, what the hell am I doing? I didn't even know I could do this. And so that's the way that I expose myself to a lot of it. And then try to back it up with some of the book's march. But I always rely on the experts who are better than that at me

to educate me. Just try to put myself in perpetual student mode and always just learning and trying and seeing what works best. Where does that come from for you? Where's your philosophy come from? Where does that open-minded come from? Where does it stem from? I think it's just a real desire to track the truth. I don't have a vested interest. There's nothing I need to defend. I'm just

fairly comfortable with not having to prove anything to make myself feel better or worse. I just want to find out what's best. That's so rare there. Do you attribute to your parents or friendships or relationships? Do you have some in traumatic? Is it always been that way for you? In some ways, truth was something that I had a very hard time avoiding. Like, I couldn't deny it. For some way, it was like, you know, some people can listen to an instrument and know when it's out of tune. You know, like a great musician can listen to a flute and be like, oh, man, sounds like there's a crack in there. Play a piano and be like, oh, yeah, the whatever the levers need to be tightened. I can't do that. I have

no idea. I can't hear music that way. You could play the worst out of tune guitar and I'm like, man, gypsy kings, amazing. You know, like, I don't know. But with truth, I always had a knack for figuring out what was real and what was not real. And I think that was help. And I would try and I'd play games myself and deny it.

But I think that's where some of the plant medicine and some of the practices like flotation and different meditation, different things, allowing myself to empty out the contents of the identity and access myself and as a being of consciousness, that really helps with all that. Because then you realize what you are and then you have much less to defend. Do you find wanting to search for truth? Because I can identify with that sentiment and that feeling, but I find just speaking personally that sometimes

it almost feels almost like a burden, because you see people walking around and they seem to be content, and I always feel like I'm trying to search for something, and I need to do these different things to find, to test myself, to learn more, and it's never ending. I don't think it ever does end, right? It never will end.

Do you ever find yourself saying, like, God, this is exhausting? Constantly be looking, you know, and searching. Yeah, I think so. And I think, and then also you have to realize that the game is the search. And I think when you get to goal focus, and be like, oh, when I figure this thing out,

everything's gonna be great. Or when my company gets to this level, it'll be great. Or when I can gets to this level, it'll be great. Or when I can achieve this physical thing, it'll be great. And then you're not enjoying the present, you've really lost the game. Because all there is is the ride. All there is is the journey. Like, winning is not about getting to some point.

It's about enjoying the process of going for your win. Like, that's the only key part of it. And I think reframing that is really key. That eliminates so much of the discomfort of the situation. Just know that being on the path is exactly the state that you will always be in. You're never going to, everything is a false summit. There is no actual summit. As soon as you achieve a goal, you're going to be working towards the next goal. It feels sometimes like, you know, you're trying to get away from ego and sometimes you end up moving towards it.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm gonna be more, I'm gonna learn these things and become more spiritual, but then I'm, oh shit, now I'm identifying with that. And now that's who I think I am. It's sticky. There's traps everywhere. That's how powerful ego is. I was just gonna ask you, someone who is so self-aware, I mean, what are your demons?

What are the things that get you in that trap? Everyone has the same as everybody. You know, these me personally, I think one of the things is we play all these games. This is like a grand game, but we play games within the games. We have these goals, we have these things that we're pushing towards. And part of one of the traps we can follow in is playing it like it's life or death. You know, like everything that happens, you make a post, you say something, your reaction, you get all wrapped up into that, into the expression of what's happening,

or the success or failure you're attached to so many things. And I think that's the biggest challenge for me is to just clean the attachments that I have, to know that you know Doing my best going out there laying it out there and fuck the consequences fuck what the outcome of what happens You know just do what I can do enjoy the process of doing it and enjoy the results no matter what happens And I think that's the that's a thing because it's easy to look at it life or death It's easy to look at the success of on it as life or death, or the success with a girl, or the success with this.

Take everything like it's going to be life or death, but there isn't anything that's life or death. Even life or death, based on my own personal spiritual experiences, isn't life or death. You know what I mean? There's something that exists and survives beyond death. So nothing is life or death. So relax.

Have some faith, enjoy the process and just take some of that stress off. And if I look back and give advice to my younger self, it'd be exactly that. Like, enjoy it. Like it's okay. It's okay. And that's the thing.

We're all practically batting 1,000. Like we're here, we're healthy enough. Things are everything that bad that happened, we can look backting a thousand. You know, like we're here, we're healthy enough. Things are everything that bad that happened, we can look back and say, you know, I'm actually grateful for that because it taught me this thing. We're like batting a thousand, except when we look at the future, we're looking at it like we're striking out left and right, you know what I mean?

And so just reframing, reframing that, I mean like... Especially when you get to appear to yourself to others, you know, that's one of the work fair. That's an unwinnable game. As the, as on it started growing, did you have any moments where that was really challenging for you? Like, I know for us, like as we started growing our show, and then you get your first, like, hate or your first person that's criticizing you and you're like, fuck, you know, my god, this person, like,

especially when they attacked you, that something that you're very proud of, like, that, you know, yeah. Yeah, did anything like that happen, yeah? Of course. Yeah, I mean, I'd never experienced, when you're, when you're very proud of like that, you know, yeah. Yeah, did anything like that happen, yeah? Of course. Yeah, I mean, I'd never experienced, when you're small enough, you don't really get a lot of haters, because they would have to really come knock on your door

and be a shithead, and that's really rare. So, but when you get to on a bigger platform, then they come out. I mean, I remember when I launched with Rogan, I mean, there was a lot, a lot of hype and a lot of build up and I was doing a lot of podcasts. And, you know, I was foolish in some ways. I was being a jackass in some ways and, you know, they latched on to a few of these things,

created a lot on their own as well. But there was like whole websites dedicating to shitting on me. And I was like, what the hell was going on? Yeah. Oh, our remarkence has been a fraudster as whole life. Oh, shit. So some of it was just total nonsense.

And some of it was like, look at this fucking asshole thing he said on this post and this thing. And there was, I was reacting emotionally sometimes. So a lot of what people were pointing out was real. And then sometimes the momentum of it and would just piling on and they were creating, creating things out of nothing as well, but that whole thing really, really shook me.

I mean, I was like really shook because I wasn't used to that nor was I expecting that. So on one hand, we had this great success. On the other hand, there were people who hated me, who didn't know me, who were saying things that were completely unjust. And you know, and for me me, someone who knows truth, I know when I fucked up, and I fuck up all the time,

but I also know when someone's saying some shit that's really fucking wrong, and that was like getting me mad, I was like, you're fucking wrong. Like, I get it when I'm wrong. I'm the first to kick my ass, like trust me. If you're saying something within the boundaries of the amount of ass that I kick on myself,. You know, if you're saying something within the boundaries of the amount of ass

that I kick on myself, like all good. But you're making shit up here. And that would, and that pissed me off at first. And you know, again, man, I keep bringing up Bodhi, but he was really essential in that, in that initial stage. He was also the first investor in the company. But I went to him and he had a, he had a, a case of that in the Torino Olympics

where he was on like cover a time magazine, he was supposed to win all these medals, and the press saw him out party in and drinking, which is what Bodhi did before all the races, so it wasn't anything unusual. But the idea that you're supposed to prepare for the Olympics in a certain way, and take it seriously.

He's like, fuck that, I'm in Italy. I'm in the Olympic Village. I'm only gonna do what I always do. And so the combination of him not winning, and because he, they blamed it on that. They blamed it on that, right? And Bodhi usually either wins or crashes,

and it just happened in this Olympic games, despite his world championships and the subsequent cold medals. He crashed in this Olympics rather than one. And so his rating, I guess the agencies keep track of this. His rating was actually the lowest rating of any athlete, even lower than OJ Simpson after he presumably killed the whole of the truck. So he was getting, he was getting like death threats.

He was getting like so much hate, like male, like actual male. Wow. Got me. And so, you know, when I was talking to him about it, you know, he'd been through the other side and he said, Look, man, you cannot allow anybody else to judge your performance. Good or bad, you know, like no matter what you did, you were the only person who knows how much work you put in, how much effort you did and what you actually did. Like don't let anybody kick your tires and make that important. Don't let anybody tell you something bad that you did and value that is important.

Take it all as data. All it is a data, but you're the only judge, and you have to focus on that. It's great advice. It's so hard to practice though, man. When you're on the receiving end of that, especially when you've got people on social media or you see reviews or whatever,

I mean, that could fuck with you big time. Is that, when did plant medicine come in? Is it right around that time where you were starting to discover that? I've been on the plant medicine path since earlier. I did a vision quest when I was like 18. Oh. Yeah. And went off into mountains into Mexico. And that was really, really powerful. That

really opened me up to a whole another spiritual dimension where I felt my body evaporate and something else exist. And I was like, oh, well, there's something else besides this. And that was your first time experiencing it like that? It was. Wow. So then that kind of set me off at a different path. And that's another beautiful way. And it's been a way to kind of recalibrate myself.

And it's a way to escape from the identity to access myself as consciousness, as something beyond this physical body, beyond this mind, the thinker behind the thoughts, the force that is animating this life, not the life itself. And identifying is that is a great other way to escape from the hate and the identification and the attachment to your image and what you're doing. Just understand that you're consciousness and you're playing in this human avatar

in this amazing game board that we have to play, but you're consciousness, and that's really who you are, and that's enough, and that's worthy of love. Now you call it medicine, what is it treating? What are you using it to treat? Because medicine is very different, when people use the term medicine, it's like I'm taking this because it's doing something

for this particular ailment or issue, When I'm treating this one particular thing, what is it, what is it doing? Why is it called medicine? Why? Because I've heard people refer to it as medicine. I've heard other people refer to it as ayahuasca or drugs or drugs or whatever. Yeah. Why do you call it medicine? Because it's been medicinal, you know, and I think right now we're in an interesting time because the clinical research has shown actual medicinal properties. And there's a recent study that just came out on depression for use of psilocybin and anxiety studies

and palliative care and of life care. Social anxiety was another great study that just came out studying MDMA and psilocybin. So we're actually proving actual medical conditions, but in general, you're treating all of the manifestations of the mind, all of the ways that the mind can drive us from suffering, from a state of what can be bliss into a state of suffering. And that's really what it tends to do. Now, it can also just be a fun ride and it can also be

challenging. It's not for everybody. It's not a panacea. But when used with the right intention, with the right person, the right time, the right intention, it can be incredibly powerful. No, someone who's around it a lot, do you feel like a lot of people abuse it or do you think for the most? Because I feel like if you're going to do a ayahuasca, I feel like you're not like a real drug seeker. You are normally seeking for... Iahuasca is miserable to do a ayahuasca. I feel like you're not like a real drug seeker. You are normally seeking for it. Iahuasca is miserable to do. Like, show me a recreational ayahuasca. I love it, it's not my fun. As you nauseous, you're these guys,

you're either shitting or puke. We were supposed to be going this weekend actually. They keep trying to sell me on it. I was just like, you're confronting, you're confronting your deepest fears and your demons. I mean, the first time I did it, I was like, I had insects in my vision, insects crawling in my eyes and experience going on.

Loading out of my face, I had eels crawling, swimming up from the water and burrowing into my stomach and thrashing around in my intestines and bursting out in my chest. I was sliding out of vina thorns naked and then I was going to tell me I had cancer. And it was like, that was like the first four hours of just dealing with everything, all of the worst parts. But then you confront these fears, and then you move past these fears. And again, in any good stoic philosophy,

the resistance becomes assistance, the obstacle becomes the way by confronting these fears, surrendering to them, moving past them, then you master them to a certain degree. And you continue that process, mastering deeper and deeper fears, uncovering different things, and they're in lies the process of growth. How many times have you done it quite a few times? How many got under your belt now?

17. 17. And each time you feel like you get something new? 100%. No two are the same. And I've worked with shamans who've done it thousands of times. And they still, every time is new, every time is different. Because we're always different. You know, there's one of my favorite quotes is from Heraclitus

and it says, no man steps in the same river twice because it's not the same man and it's not the same river. Like ourself, we tend to think of ourself as one thing. Ourself is a million things. The self after you have a giant barbecue is different than the self after you have a salad. The self when you wake up, rested versus the self when you wake up, exhausted. All of these are different variations and permutations to self. The memories, the change of the actual physical composition of the brain and everything that's going on, the neurochemicals that are firing that day,

we're a bunch of different selves. And I think, you know, recognizing that is essential, you know, in really understanding who we are, that we're always evolving. We're always changing. And so when you take a medicine, it's going to be interacting with you in that particular condition, whatever your fears are, whatever things that are going on, it's not gonna be the same ride every time. Now, are you afraid that because, you know, you've got people like you talking about it and you've got other, you know, personalities talking about using things like ayahuasca, even, you know, LSD, are you afraid that because it's getting more popular

that the people are gonna start using it for the wrong reasons or people are gonna have the wrong idea of using these substances. Because like you said, it's miserable. Or do you care? Or do you care? I feel like there'll be some people listening who are gonna be, oh, I wanna do that.

And then it's like, it's gonna scare them. We're so wrong thing. I mean, does there any thought of that? Yeah, I mean, I definitely caution people that, you know, don't go running to this, thinking it's gonna be a fun game or a fantasy. Like, you should come do it ready and sober and earnest and humble and just ready to learn. If you come with that attitude and with the right person, I think it can be a very powerful

experience. There's going to be some, if this gets extremely popular, there's going to be some downside. It's just part of life. Like, we accept it. I mean, there's tens of thousands of pharmaceutical deaths, you know, it doesn't stop people from releasing pharmaceuticals because at the core, they have the potential to help, you know, some maybe don't, but, you know, as like a, as a general idea, the idea is that these are going to help some people, they're going to hurt some people, you know, and I think, but it's funny,

like you'll have one case of someone getting hurt from psychedelics and everybody freaks out. And I think it's just, we push away that, which we're afraid of. And we're afraid of our own demons. We're afraid of uncovering our true self. We're afraid of that mirror being held up that we can't look away from that shows us

our true nature. That's terrifying. Terrifying for most people. That's got to be the scariest thing. And we're addicted to control. You know, we think we're Terrifying. Terrifying for most people. That's got to be the scariest thing. And we're all addicted to control. You know, we think we're in control, even though we never are. You know, we think we have everything all figured out and I'm going to be in control and I know best.

And this is teaching you surrender because you have no other fucking choice but to surrender. So do you think we're, do you think that we're controlling what happens to us in the future? Do you think we're reacting to what's supposed to happen? Depends. And I think that's reacting to what's supposed to happen? Depends. And I think that's, where does it even matter? It matters, because I think the game is only fun when we have choice. Otherwise, we're playing out a movie,

or somebody else's movie, and are being played by another game. I think we're here to access as much choice as we can, but in order to have free will, we have to step back to the consciousness level. We have to be the thinker behind the thoughts, not the thoughts themselves. We have to be the person behind the emotions, not the emotions themselves. And if we're not, then we're going to be driven by our own fears and grids, and we're

basically going to be a robot. And I think the way that the game is the most fun is when we can step back and then really have all of our options available and decide, all right, I want to play this game. I want to play this game, you know, maybe I do want to play the role in real slow in my Bugatti with my fucking U-Blow on and just ballin' out of control, but know that that's a game. Maybe I want to play that, not that I'm compelled to do that because I need to shit on these people who doubted me and thought it was never good enough or maybe you just want to play that game or maybe you want wanna play the, you know, put on the robes and go hang out in a monastery

and not talk to anybody for a month. Maybe you wanna play that game, but be able to do it as a choice, not as some desperation that we need. You know, go to the gym because you wanna go to the gym, not because you're compelled, you know, that you have to, because you need to be better than this person

who's now fucking your ex girlfriend. You know, like, like just re-harness the ability to choose what we want in life. Now what's it like being someone like you meeting a partner? How hard is it to meet somebody who has similar views as a female that thinks like this? And I got to ask you some because I've rumors, and I want to know the truth from you, like as far as an open relationship, and what that's like, and tell me a little bit about what your journey on that,

have you always been like that? Did you become more comfortable with yourself through all these experiences? Yeah, I mean, again, I know truth, and I know when it's bullshit. And I think to me, it always felt like bullshit that someone should have the complete and exclusive right

to your pleasure in certain parts of your body. Like what? Like I surrender all rights to pleasure to you and nobody else can do it. Like that seems ridiculous. Well, when you put it that way, I should make a lot of sense. You know, right?

Like if you had a friend, if you had a friend, if you had a friend, you gotta share some conversations and you've had with the press girlfriends that they're, yeah, I'm not gonna get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like if you had a friend who had an amazing restaurant, you just love that restaurant, right?

And then you went out to eat somewhere else. If that friend came to you and you're like, what the fuck, man? How dare you go to that fucking Indian food place? Fuck that. I said the best fucking food in the world. You're only gonna to eat for me. You'd be like, whoa, whoa dude.

Chill the fuck out. I just ate there once. You're wrong with me. I'm still going to eat at your spot. So all appetites, still my favorite spot. Exactly. All appetites, we have an understanding that we like variety. We like to, you know,

for facetiate these appetites with a variety of different things. And we understand that, except sex has been put in this taboo box. Big time. And it's so odd. It's just, it's an appetite like other things. And it's an appetite that has, you know, some legitimate consequences. So I can understand there's some rationale for treating it slightly different than eating a meal somewhere. I mean, pregnancy is a little longer lasting than food poisoning.

Of course. But nonetheless, this is great analogy to... I want to assure you that. It says that. It's the same thing. And I think we've been told all of these stories of possession and these stories of, you know, if you're with the right one, that's the only one you'll love, except everybody knows it's bullshit because every time, you every time a married person gets around his boys,

they're talking about other girls. Every time a married girl gets around, the girlfriends are talking about how hot the waiter is or their trainer is, like, we know it, but we're deluding ourselves in the thinking that we're something else. I think it's just an acknowledgement of our innate nature. And I think, sex at dawn really helped with that.

That's a book by Dr. Chris Ryan. And going back to kind of the tribal roots of sexuality and realizing that it wasn't always like this. Like humans didn't always need to be like this. And he has a lot of great examples. Well, the evidence, you know, what's kind of fucked up. And it's only fucked up because it's challenging to think this way, right?

Because we're in a society. We raise a certain way. We, the agricultural revolutions probably what prompted us to possess, you know, our women and possess each other. But if you look at the evidence, I mean, very few mammals actually have sex when they can't get pregnant, were one of them. Like women have sex when they can't get pregnant.

Most mammals go into heat. The male penis on humans is massive compared to other primates. We have this big dick and it's designed to displace other men's semen. We were probably doing a lot of fucking. We probably evolved having sex with everybody all the time. You know, it's fucked up, but that's the evidence, right? 100%.

And even things like, you know, they call it female copulatory vocalization, the fact that women are louder during sex. It's the loudest people know. It's the loudest people know. Like, oh, I'm ready for sex now. And these men. We're doing it, come join in. These men, you know, one man is definitely not going to last long.

And please me, I better put the collar. You know what? Is that the theory behind that? Yeah, this is so much fun. Oh my God, between your plunging theory and his fucking spirit. You know what's funny, these are actually, these are actually, almost they're like, they're accepted theories.

You know, like what he's saying, if you look at like the female orgasm, it's so much more difficult to achieve. And it's probably because, she like you said, she was having sex with multiple men. Sorry, gentlemen. And also, you know,

the orgasm also, you know, is actually increases the opportunity for increases the chances of pregnancy. It does. You know, and so like, the ladding dude increases the chances of pregnancy. You know, and so like- The ladding is the one that wins. Yeah, it's like, it's like that's, it's all building to it. So we have all these clues basically

that are clues into our genetics except we're denying them. And I think for me, you know, I just didn't want to do that. Now, all right, so let's go fast forward. This is all practicum, this is all theory, right? Yeah, yeah. So I had a monogamous relationship and like most of my mind. How old are you right here when you were talking about this?

It's all 15. 30. 32, 33. Okay, so this is, okay. So and I had some other experiences where there were some allowances made, like, you know, we could bring in some other girls, but we all had to share it together. And, and but I was very protective of my girl because before I read Sexiton, I thought we were more like lions.

Like it was a state of nature for one man to have multiple women and protect those women to the death. This kind of other mammalian, you know, my- Of course we want to think that because we're a man. Of course. But really we're more like Bonobos, right? Everybody's just fucking everybody. That's true.

I'm gonna blast, right? So I read Sexiton, I was like, man, this is truth. It had that harmonious truth cord and in the evidence, I was like, man, this is truth. It had that harmonious truth cord in it. And the evidence behind it was like, fuck, my thinking is fucked. So the direction that we need to go is not for me to have multiple options, is for both of us to have multiple options.

And that follows both sexually and that follows with love. And then understanding that if that's the sexual base and then looking at love, like when a mother has, mother has their first child and loves that child and then a mother has the second child. Nobody goes to that mom and says, oh man, is it hard loving your first child half as much because now you've got to share it? Like love is abundant.

Love is not in scarcity. You can't cut it like a fucking pie, you know. It is infinite. And there's no way that giving some to one means that you have a less than one. There's time is, you know, time is not infinite, but then how much time is wasted when you're resentful and when you're not present and when you're thinking about something else? Like, so time can be very malleable because time in presence, time in enthusiastic, like, acknowledgement of another person is so much more valuable than the gross nature of time.

So I realized like both from a relational standpoint and from a sexual standpoint, that being in an open relationship made a lot of sense. So convinced my other very kind of conventional thinking monogamous partner, Whitney Miller, to give this a go. And it was hell. It was hell.

So the first thing that happened was I had another lover. And she was like, you know, maybe I'll be okay not having another lover. Well, meanwhile, she was just getting tortured and resentful every time I was with this other person. So then the resentment started to creep in, right? So we knew that she needed to get another lover, and I thought I was gonna be cool with it,

philosophically it made sense. Then she finally did, and then when I found out that she did, she found out that she did, every time I would think about them having sex, I literally frozen my tracks and I wanted to vomit. Like I could not move. And then I would think about a different position. I'd be like, dog, he's, oh, oh, like, I can't handle this. I gotta push myself through the deepest part of this fear.

Similar to Iowaska, like, what's the scariest shit I can think of? So I hypothesize the scenario. Oh, no! Why? Right? I have to. I imagine her being tied up in a stable

and you have this fucking cow. He's like, he's got a leash on it, like, feeding her pigs. Just ticking her everywhere, feeding her pigs. Like, just dickin' her everywhere, and feeding her a pig. Oh my god. Just some huge guy. Yeah, exactly.

I just got to know. I turned worse in our young possible. And I was like, and then after that, it got so bad eventually. Yeah, exactly. You're good at this. Next time someone needs that, maybe I'll just, I'll write a whole like scene for you.

Maybe they should just ask you to play it up. And I will. And then it got to the point where it's so ridiculous that I just started laughing. I was like, you know what, if she's having fun, if he's having fun, fuck it, it's gonna be okay. And, you know, so that was like the first little mini breakthrough, but really what it does

is it triggers all of these egoic parts of your identity. You feel like you have to be better than everybody who's with your girl. If he's a better fighter, if he's a very strong, or if he's richer, if he's whatever, it'll trigger your own insecurities in that. That's just another opportunity to work through just the shit that you have yourself. To me, the open relationship has become the absolute best thing that I could do to help work on my own ego and my own insecurities. Nothing will challenge it like that. I can't even imagine. I can't even think of anything

that would challenge it. Yeah. I mean, plant medicine and open relationship are two of the hardest fucking things to do. I mean, he's rocking roll now. Yeah, it's totally. And it's been incredibly valuable for both of us, because we both had to deal. I'm talking from my perspective, but we both had to deal with that. And really, the only way out is consciousness. The only way out is to see your partner

is you living a different life, to see the pleasure coming to her as pleasure coming to you, to enjoy and appreciate that. And there's a word called compursion, which is getting pleasure of someone else's pleasure, knowing that whatever pleasure she feels is good good and that's someone you love. So her pleasure is great. And then the person providing that pleasure to her, you know, that's your ally, not your enemy. If you know, if that person's hurting her, that's your fault. That's of course,

that's different. That's your fucking enemy. Well, she wants to be there. He's providing pleasure. Wait, wait, wait. So you're gonna say, someone who's giving someone you love pleasure is your enemy. Where love, fuck is a logic and that. You know, it doesn't make any sense. That person's your ally, that person's your friend. But really, we have this fear our ego gets in the way that we're gonna lose her.

That she's gonna win her over and she's not coming back. And so you know. But that's also coming from me, go that's you thinking I own her. You know, because if she don't wanna be with you anymore. And that's not real love, because if you really love her and she chooses that other person, that's you thinking I own her. You know, because if she don't want to be with you anymore. And that's not real love, because if you really love her and she chooses that other person and that's gonna make her more happy,

if you really love someone and they're like, I would really be more happy with this person. The only response is, yeah, go. Like, totally go. That's gonna make you more happy, go. You know, so everything else is not love. It's all of these mechanisms of control, it's these mechanisms of ego that are masquerading as love. Love is just truly wanting the best

for that person that you're with. So it's redefining love and redefining that relationship. And I can finally say after years of somehow some enjoyment, that it's really the ideal scenario because me and Whitney, there's just zero resentment there now, you know, it's just, we can talk about anything, we can have fun together, we can, we can really, we've gotten to be close friends with each other's, with each other's lovers, which is nice, because I liken it to the analogy of like, when I don't know somebody who's gonna be with Whitney, when I don't know him, it's like some random person coming in and taking my favorite car for a test drive, you know, I'm like, I don't know what they're

fucking doing with that car. Like, I'm just like, I was thinking, you're running at the ramen in the curb, say, I can be smoking in there, I don't know what the fuck they're doing. You know? They're like, but when it's your homie, and like your homie, then it's like letting your

friend bar your car. Which is the exact opposite, then it's like letting your family car. Which is the exact opposite of what most people like. Most people would be like, man, if my girl cheered on me, my friend that'd be the fucking worst thing ever. But in reality, like it sounds. See, I've always been different. I've always told my voice,

I'll be pissed, you don't tell me. That's where I'll be pissed. I'll be pissed if I find out and you fucking hit it for me. That's what would make me, man. Yeah, sure. Yeah, you coming to me and you tell me. But if they thought you were gonna beat their ass, that would be more incentive fucking hit it for me, that's what would make me better. Yeah, you come to me and you tell about it. If they thought you were gonna beat their ass, that would be more incentive to hide it for you.

Right? Yes. Yes. It sounds so logical, but gosh, I'll tell you what, if anything is gonna prevent, I'll tell you what, it's a Jedi status, right? If anything is gonna prevent that type, because what you're talking about

when it comes to open relationship is really just one piece of a philosophy of acceptance, love, of dissolution of ego. It's just one piece of it, but I guarantee you that's the piece people will focus on to prevent other people from learning the rest of it, which is just very important, which is good stuff. And you talk about having sex with different people, man, people freak out. Like that's the thing people lose their mind the most about. Yeah, it's very threatening. You know, like, I talked to Chris Ryan about how many people have burned his books and gotten so mad because the idea that someone might want to have sex with more people is so fresh.

Especially women. Yeah, women might want to fuck somebody. That's a big one. That's a big one. Especially women. Have you read the book, A Billion Wicked Thoughts? No. That's a big one especially women. Have you read the book a billion wicked thoughts? No very interesting book done by these scientists who analyzed over a billion porn searches and porn searches are interesting because when people are in the heat of the moment you know the jerk on offer whatever they type in what they want to look up and Depending on what they click on or whatever that tells you a lot more about people than surveys because in the past we had like the

Kinsey reports or whatever people but when people are writing things down, they know someone's gonna read them, it's totally different than when people type in a porn search. And what they find is that sexuality is, it's a lot more interesting than you think. Way more diverse than we think. Way more diverse, way more interesting. One of the cues, this was an interesting one,

I brought this up before, but one of the cues for male arousal, straight male arousal, actually one of the number for male arousal, straight male arousal. Actually, one of the number one cues is another penis. People don't realize this. Another penis is an arousal cue for straight males and they call it the competition. This came from that book. Can you see that?

I feel like I don't think I ever search big penises ever on that. No, you don't, but let me ask you this. But let me ask you this. Have you ever, but let me ask you this. When you go to your top searches on PornHub or whatever, is one of the top searches women getting fucked by big dicks or women getting fucked by small dicks? Nobody watches dudes with small dicks being in chicks.

You see what I'm saying? That's just awkward though. It's, yeah. You suck. But it's, it's like an interesting, I feel bad for you. I have a whole lot of kind of lingus. That could be more like a big fantasy thing.

You wanna imagine yourself as the guy with the big dick, but I know what you're saying. And I think that's like, since I've been in this open relationship, people approach me with a variety of different things. And I'll have like, people who are just fucking bad asses, just like studs. And they'll like reveal to me like, yeah, you know, secretly my fantasy is to have someone, you know,

fuck my girl. I'm like, whoa, like that's cool. You know, I'm like totally embraced all of these things. Yeah. You know, for, and it's really interesting, like that is a, that is a factor in sexuality. And I think it has some evolutionary basis. Like the male, male, female, you know,

the male, male, female, threesome is actually, I think, if I'm correct, I think someone told me, is actually more popular than the, then vice versa. Because of some, some weird dynamics, but everybody's different, you know, I think if I'm correct, I think someone told me, is actually more popular than vice versa. Because of some weird dynamics, but everybody's different. You know, I mean, for me, that's not what fires me up. But nonetheless, for the people who it does, fucking great.

Like, everybody just needs to relax about their sexuality. Like, whatever gets you turned on as long as it's not hurting somebody and as long as consensual, like, go for it. We're all just pleasure monkeys. However, your button is shaped and whatever your button looks like, go ahead, like press that thing. Like the last thing we wanna fucking do

is evaporate out of this body and look back and be like, man, I had all those buttons, but I'd never pushed them. Boy, that would be terrifying. Like the fuck? And we're gonna think like, oh, what, we're winning some fucking prize, some gold star? No, we're sacrificing the gold stars that we have right in front of us.

All of these things that could be awesome, that we're not allowing ourselves to do because of some, you know, ancient archaic archeology. You know, fuck that. You know, if you have that pleasure button and it's not gonna hurt anybody, push that bitch. You know, see if you like it. That's a very, you know, I use the word evolved because I know some people listening and be like, well, that's not gonna hurt anybody, push that bitch. See if you like it. That's a very, I use the word evolved

because I know some people listening and be like, well that's not evolved. That's what I mean by evolved is to get to that way of thinking, you had to go through a lot of shedding of what you were raised to believe or what. Maybe even instinctually you believe a little bit, right? A little bit of that protectionism, a little bit of that ownership.

That's a very difficult place to go. And when you read about couples going in that direction, more often than not, and I want to let people know, more often than not, it ends up where the couple breaks up. Very rarely does a strength in a relationship. I think it takes two people who'd be very, very evolved in that sense, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, it depends. I think it's going to get harder probably before it gets easier.

So if there's, you know, if you can't withstand the heat, it's going to, you know, it might cause you to crumble, but maybe that was supposed to crumble anyways, you know what I mean? So I don't know, I mean, I think, I don't think there's that many people who are, and everybody tries to put this in different categories. There's, oh, you're a swinger, or oh, you're a this, or, and I think all of the categories and identifications

are really just nonsense, you know? Like even, It's trying to put you in a box, yeah, exactly. Everybody wants to put you in a box. Like, for me, it's just about been following the truth that I know about love and the truth and I know about sexuality. And this is the way to see.

True to yourself. Yeah, that's what it really is. True to yourself. And that's the thing that I always struggle with. It's like, if I have a feeling, if I have a desire, if I have something that I want to do, to not do it because somebody else made a loss, somebody else made a rule, I feel like that's worse.

Well, as long as you're not hurting anybody. That's what I mean. If it's for something, if it's for me, like to deny yourself that that's the real crime, to take that away from yourself. Like you said, I love the analogy of the buttons. You're in this, you're like, God, I had all this cool shit. I could have done, I wish I would have done that.

Yeah, it's like you're driving in a, playing a video game and you just don't use any of the buttons on your right thumb. No turbo. You know, like, what? I'm in a little time. Exactly. I was just pushing A.

Yeah, fuck. I was just jumping in place. All right, so switching gears, let's talk a little bit more about, let's do it. I know, I got it because we have so much respect for what you're doing. We talk so much shit about all the other people out there doing bad shit. I want to hear where your mind is at,

where we're going with on it, where do you see the future's company? I love, I see all the people that you've affiliated yourself with. I feel like it's that you've fostered this community of lots of great minds and different directions, and it doesn't, you don't seem like that company where it's like, it's all about on it and only on it. I feel like you have people that are underneath or affiliated with you guys, but they're still

doing their own thing too. Like I love the culture that you're creating. Where do you see the future of this company in the next five, 10 years? I just wanna stick true to being as real and as transparent and as kind of authentic as we can. And just again, track truth to the best we can. Put out the best products.

If we put out something and say it's great, that it's actually great. And, and make sure that we continue that path of really being of service. You know, I think that's the key thing. Everything is built upon this, this idea of reciprocity. And I think always giving more than we take is, is the key. And so, you know, I'd love to see this thing continue to be something that can support people and, you know, if it grows bigger, which I anticipate that it will, great. You know,

but I think one thing to, for me, to be mindful of is to not push it to grow so fast that we have to make sacrifices. And that can be, that can be an impulse that you have. Like, we got to get this thing to grow. We we gotta get this thing to grow. We gotta get this thing to grow, but really staying true to just the core principles of it. It's very challenging to do when you start to get where you're at. I mean, we're at it. Every time we're in a growth spurt right now,

and when you get in this point in your company, it's really easy to get misguided in different directions, whether it be for money or partner. It's gotta be one of the biggest mistakes businesses do when they grow, as they grow too fast. You see evidence of that all the time. I mean, in the fitness industry, we had, and our day, when curves, remember curves?

Remember that gym train, it just exploded, grew way too fast, and then crumbled under its own weight. It's got to be one of the big things. This type of academy here, is this the only location you have like this where you have, yeah. You say currently, so I was gonna ask you, are you looking to open more of these types of brick and mortar types?

I think so. I think we're just really honing what the formula is and figuring it out. This is our incubation for that idea. And then making sure that if we produce another one, then it meets these standards. And I think making sure that whatever we do, it's up to the on its standard and just holding that firm. And, you know, so I think part of my job is to just constantly be reflecting on that. And we're not going to be perfect. We're going to fuck up sometimes. We have fucked up before.

I was just going to ask you. And then finding ways to like, fuck, fuck, we fucked that up. You know, whatever it was, it took my eye off. It didn't see it, we lost our adhesiveness principle and just bring it, make sure to always bring it back and just make sure that the core heart of this thing stays in the right place. Does anything come to mind that you tried and you went, okay, I thought that was a good idea, that wasn't such a good idea, it comes to mind. Yeah, for sure, I mean, we were looking at acquiring different traffic sources, and we let the growth hackers have carte blanche to try and figure stuff out.

And when we take a look at those pages, some of them, I didn't like them, and the customers didn't like them. They didn't look right. They were saying things and enticing people in a salesy way beyond what I felt was authentic, an authentic expression. We had to correct that and say that's not the way and then email those customers and come

out and be like, hey, y'all are good and you can always get your money back. That's one thing that we have consistently across. We don't play games with the money back guarantee. Anybody wants a money back? You don't even have to send the product back You know just let us know get your money back like because all of that is games and I don't want to create any kind of parasitic Situation with anybody and so you know there's little things that'll come up where we'll fuck up You know or you know, I know early on we had a security breach here and we found it internally We found it internally and And we very easily could

have brushed none of the rug. No one else was ringing any bells. But we saw it internally. Someone had gotten some data. So I just went out and told everybody, like, Hey, listen, this is what happened. We had a security breach. I'm so sorry. You guys got to change your cards if you've ordered from this time to this time. And trying to just not, not expecting perfection, knowing that we're going to fuck up, but always being willing to admit it, bring it back in line and kind of put it on the right path. It's hard to look at something where you messed up, where you could have done something better, but you ultimately have to just accept that, accept the lumps and move on, pick yourself back up, do the right thing from there, and I make

sure that you've learned from that mistake. Excellent. We appreciate the message you're putting forth with your company in a sea of fitness industry is just full of, you know, we say garbage. Yeah, just foolish. There's a lot of shit. A lot of things that go out, making people feel worse about themselves, not better about themselves, things that don't help people actually hurt people. And you're one of the few companies,

and obviously it's led by somebody with a philosophy that's a little bit different. We appreciate that. So with that, we'd like to thanks for coming on our show. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Enjoy this conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Listen, if you like Mind Pump, leave us a five star rating review on iTunes. If we like your review and we pick it, you'll win a free Mind Pump T-shirt. Also, don't forget to check us out on Instagram at Mind Pump Radio. You can find me at Mind Pump Sal, add them at Mind Pump Adam, and Justin at Mind Pump

Justin. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at MindPumpMedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes maps and a ballad, maps performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs.

With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundles like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating in movie or night tunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family.

We thank you for your support. And until next time, this is MindPump. Until next time, this is Mindbomb.