Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 425: Jordan Harbinger on Confidence, Charisma & the Art of Charm

Episode Date: December 26, 2016

Sal, Adam & Justin chat with Jordan Harbinger, host of the popular podcast The Jordan Harbinger Show. In this episode they dig into a variety of topics including confidence, body language, first impressions, charisma and interviewing Larry King. Check out and subscribe to Jordan's awesome podcast The Jordan Harbinger Show. Learn more at jordanharbinger.com . MAPS Prime the only pre-workout you need is now available at mindpumpmedia.com Get MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, MAPS Aesthetic, the Butt Builder Blueprint AND the Sexy Athlete Mod (The RGB Super Bundle) packaged together at a substantial DISCOUNT at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Have Sal, Adam & Justin personally train you with a new video on our YouTube channel, Mind Pump TV. Be sure to Subscribe for updates. Get your Kimera Koffee, Mind Pump's first official sponsor, at www.kimerakoffee.com, code "mindpump" for 10% off! Add to the incredible brain enhancing effect of Kimera Koffee with www.brain.fm/mindpump 10 Free sessions! Music for the brain for incredible focus, sleep and naps! Please subscribe, rate and review this show! Each week our favorite reviewers are announced on the show and sent Mind Pump T-shirts!

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, a-mite, up with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Hey, so literally one of my favorite guests, one of my favorite people, dude. I think Jordan is probably one of the coolest people that I've met. Just a super, I love to meet very intelligent, down to earth, successful guys that just don't throw any of that in your face. That's a lot of cool guys.

He hosts a very successful podcast, one of the best podcasts you can find on iTunes, the art of charm, and he's a communication expert. I don't think he calls himself that, but I would call him that 100%. And it's evident when you meet him. He's a very, very likable guy. He's a great charisma. We had a good time interviewing him and talking to him. We talked a lot about communication, the science of communication, charisma, the origin of art of charm. Where his school started. He has a school down south that is a week long and he does little mini boot camps

uh... where people can come down there and they learn all these skills huge if you're an entrepreneur anybody really in business even if you work for another company and you're looking to move up and just understand the power of communication uh... he is definitely like that definitely a great to listen to look into his school. It was definitely a great guess. Some of the places that you can associate Jordan Harbinger. So Harbinger's H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R, his business is theartofcharmed.com. And then you can also find him or follow him on Twitter at the Art of Charm, all one word.

So here is Mind Pump interviewing Jordan Harbinger host of the art of charm. You guys made hoodies, star wars shirts, you guys have like a whole line. Oh dude, it's like Zelda, it's like everything bro. That's so cool. I'm wearing the thong. The truth I'll take your word for. The math song. Oh yeah, I had a visual of that.

It's written like this, you can't see unless I bend over Shit true be told there's absolutely no money in it Also in tattoo by the time by the time we we pay for the the shirts to be made and printed and shipped and pay someone to Handle all that it's about a break even Yeah, but breaking it's pretty much, but you got people where advertise got stuff That's pretty much how we look at it. We give away every week, we give away free shirts for iTunes reviews. Out. Nice.

So we drive our... It's giving away our secrets. Oh, yeah, I don't think there's any secrets for this guy. I'm very, very advertising. You're gonna give the take, you know what I mean? No, I want... Actually, that's why I love talking to Jordan

just because of his experience. I've long been doing this for him. Sure, he's tried to monkey around with half the stuff that we fuck around too long with. So... We, our shirts, if we got them made by made by little children we probably save some money. We should yeah Yeah, like Kathy Lee Gifford style. Yeah, Charlie like you know, I didn't even know except you're like no We knew yeah, we just wanted to make cheap shirts their hands just make the best intricate details Yeah, you can't stitch the best not with fingers greater than a few, you know, half centimeter wide, you just can't.

And baby tears are just softer. So Jordan, Jordan, I wanted to be tears. That's too young. That's science. Come on. So at least four. That's what I heard. Well, I wanted to ask you what,

if you do something already with people, because we were all talking about your business. By the way, I would love to go down sometime. I would love to go and go through. He just met you at him. I mean, I'm sorry. I make friends fast, yeah. No, I would love to,

because it's down Southern California, correct? Well, to AOC. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I live up here. I was like, I don't even know if I, I think I'm just left from here. I live inside the city limits where the studio is. Yeah, so I mean, I would love to go down and it's-

You're right, the academy, right? Yeah, yeah, the school, yeah, the articharm school. Yeah, so I would love to experience it ourselves. We were all talking about how fun that would be for all of us to go through that process. And then do you do affiliations with other podcasts or other companies where we pump the shit out of it? I mean, you got it's like eight grand, right, a person. Yeah, it's eight grand.

It depends if people pay over time, pay in full, or if there's like deals. Sometimes we do like little like, hey, nobody wants to show up on this Christmas boot camp thing. We need three Jewish people who's in, because they have Hanukkah, like, you know, earlier. Yeah, I know you're not doing anything. Yeah, yeah, you're gonna go out for Chinese food

and see a movie like the rest of us. So true. I know you're not doing anything. Yeah, you're gonna go out for Chinese food and see a movie like the rest of us. So true. So if you wanna come in this today, yeah. I don't know, is that common knowledge outside Jewish circles that on Christmas, a lot of Jewish people go out for Chinese food and go to the movies?

Only because I've seen the movie Christmas food. I know, I think that's where it comes from. Oh, Christmas story. I didn't know that. I actually didn't put that together until right now. I just grew up with that. That was didn't put that together until right now. I just grew up with that. That was what happened.

And my friends would always be like, Hey, do you want to go to the movies and eat Chinese food? And I'm like, every Christmas, this always happens. It's so weird. Farah, rah, rah, rah. Yeah, rah, rah.

Yeah, Kongpow chicken on Christmas. What is going on? I could just see, I could see us. We have a lot. So we have probably our most, I don't know, probably our best customers are our private forum that we have. So we have this private forum has about 1500 people in it that are just like raving lunatics when it comes to mind, but they're huge fans.

That's awesome. Most of them are entrepreneurs, so most of them are businessmen and women, either aspiring trainers or already or PT's and chiropractors, you name it all kinds of professionals that I really think would benefit from your course. And I think we could drive a lot of people, believe it or not. So that's why I want to talk to you about what we could do business-wise, if we can push some people your way, how we would work that out. So it's obviously super beneficial for you.

And there's some sort of thing that we can do together. Yeah, we can totally figure that out. I've never actually done, and that can't do together. Yeah, we can totally figure that out. I've never actually done, and wow, that can't be true. It's so rare that I don't remember doing it, but it's not because we're like, well, we just don't want to work out any deals. It's because it's like, probably either no one is asked or most likely the people that have asked

are like these weird internet marketers where you know their client base is just the worst. You know, like the guys who clicked on an ad on a porn site for something and they're like, hey, I can send you tons of those guys, and you're like, no, we don't really have them. Yeah, fuck those guys. We tried that.

We tried that porn. We tried that porn. You tried putting ads on porn. That was my idea. Brilliant, right? You know, like such a massive audience, you can be exposed to right away. Everybody watches porn. It's never-bark. And it's cheap. You know, like such a massive audience you can be exposed to right away. Everybody watches porn. Everybody. And it's cheap

Advertising on porn. That's extremely cheap. I feel I know I know why I feel like when you click on So I did on a porn site it was an accident like I oh I meant to click on the threesome clearly I mean with the midget and then boom I clicked on an ad and then we got to click and then you're only angry at the company That's trying to sell you something because all you want to see is vagina You know I'm saying all you're getting is ad come to my school come to my school for eight thousand oh fuck you Give me the vagina. Yeah, I was trying to get you too. I'm not going there. I'm cutting out the middle man Just a big cock block straight to porn. Yeah, that's why I'm on this site. I don't have the resources. So you really don't So true.

Oh man. It hits too close to that. It makes me feel a little bit. I feel bad. So when people, I have a desert on porn sites and people are not clicking or it's just the worst traffic or the people were coming through, but they were just horrible people.

No, worst traffic. You, for the amount of clicks and views we were getting, we were getting no revenue, nothing translating anything. Because we're hoping Abden have close on. It was pretty much all over. It seemed like, I remember when Justin came up with it, all of us went like, oh my God, this is brilliant. Everybody's all cheap.

Yes, it's cheap. You can't ever watch more of this to no brainer. And we figured too, because we're like this raw and edgy podcast. Totally, we talk about Dixon, but John is our time. Like, these people are perfect to market too. They don't think we're funny. Yeah, no, like what gave me the idea was because there was this truck. It was like the service I think that would come.

It was like a kind of like a door dash sort of a company that would like make sandwiches or whatever late night and they would like give it to you like door to door. And so like they did really rock it. Yeah, they did really well some reason. Well, it's people are hungry at that time and I was like well, I can't go anywhere my pants are Yeah No self-respect I'm gonna eat a sloppy Joe right might want to wash your hands first

Yeah Grilled cheese All right, that's enough So now that you're not now that you're not involved in the school and you don't actually have to go down there I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, That was what I was looking for. With something else in LA, like interviewing somebody or being interviewed by somebody and then it's like, all right, I'm in LA, I'm gonna go hang out at a boot camp and do that stuff. So a typical day for me now though, is, I mean, I actually have my schedule in my phone,

which is right here and I can give you a real life example. Yeah, I would love to, give it to him. I'm on my own. Yeah. He's all seven ampilates. Nope. He's no reformer though. Really, really what he is is he just reminds me how I am

because if you ask me what I'm doing tomorrow, I have no fucking clue because somebody else has put that. Yeah, I have to refer to either that person who books that schedule or I need my phone to like, okay, hold on, let me tell you what I did today. Yeah, I, I, my, this is sort of proof that my days are all kind of weird, right? Cause I can't, I don't go.

Well, you know those people who go, yeah, at 6 a.m. I get up and I read the newspaper, 7 a.m. I eat breakfast, then at 9 a.m. I work and then I go to the gym and I come, and I'm always like, wow, that's so easy and simple. Yeah. Yeah. I am really jealous right now that that is your day. I could do that. Yeah.

I mean, I, I do this thing for productivity where I schedule my day out in 15 minute long blocks. Wow. Some are increments of 15 minutes, right? Like one hour. But the whole day from today at 8 a.m. all the way till whenever we wrap up here has been scheduled in 15 minute blocks with very, there's one little white slice there at 11 a.m. And that was a canceled call.

You have 15 minutes to go to the bathroom. We have a drink of coffee. Like a coffee. That's all you got. Exactly. So you've got to hold it for a while. I wish I was joking about this, but, and I haven't talked about this anywhere else, of course, because where would you? But I have a bottle in my studio, since I don't have live co-hosts, I've got a bottle

in my studio that's labeled courtesy of my fiance. Do you not agree? This is Jordan's piss bottle because the reason you did that is because that's good times. Yeah, because some days, I'm on Skype with freaking, like an astronaut which was or Tony Hawk. I've got to go to the bathroom and I can be like, wait, that's an awesome story.

But hang on like two minutes because I really have to pee. And then we got to edit it out and be like, so you were talking about how you set this world record? No, I'm just, I'm going in a bottle. It's worth it. You just interviewed him. You're not fully committed. Oh, it's a comment.

It comes out on Thursday. Wait, so you legit pee in a bottle while you're doing your... Sometimes, not every single time. Why not a, why not a diaper? I've done that cross country. It's not that weird. I like the bottle. Why not a diaper?

Dipper dude, come on. Why would I buy a diaper when I have a piss bottle? Yeah, that's a label. I'm accustomed to going backwards It's going backwards. I will bro you evolve into the bottle. You don't go the other way around Stadium buddy pissing yourself. Yeah, I mean I still want to be comfortable just because I have to jam my weener into a bottle It doesn't mean I want to stay uncomfortable I want to leave it there The ideal situation.

So tell me, you got to tell me about Tony Hawk because I've always had a lot of respect for him. He's one of those athletes that reached Super Stardom and then was smart. I feel like it was my... Savage on a team. Yeah, total businessman, right? You got to give us a little, can we tease you?

Yeah, yeah, of course. So I wanted to get specific information out of him because people always ask those guys the same things. Oh, so what was it like? They said 100. Tell me the 900. Tell me about getting famous in skateboarding or like who are your favorite skateboarders?

And these are really amateurish questions that I feel like those are kind of fan questions that have been answered a million times. And I say fan questions because that's what you ask somebody when you're like, wait, who is that guy? Oh man, there's a famous person on this plane. I gotta ask him something. That's so true.

First thing that comes to your mind is like, whoa, what's your favorite movie because you're an actor? And they're like, right? So I asked him things like, all right, why did you keep practicing even when nobody gave a crap about skateboarding? Because his career was like, it was like skateboarding, is this cool?

I don't know, was it 70s thing? And then it was like 80s, it's kind of fun, but then mid to late 80s through early 90s, no one cared at all for like 10 years. That's true. Nobody gave a crap about skateboarding. There were no skate parks really. Very few anyway.

Pro skateboarding basically didn't exist. All those skate companies, remember like Vision Streetwear? And so all that stuff, airwalk, like they barely survived slash most of one out of business. And all of those other ones went completely under. Now is that cause of roller blades? It was part, you know what?

Actually, I think it was in part because of roller blades well but but also because it was just like a trendy thing that they it just went away and that was I feel like there was the rise of like hip hop was hard to come it was hip hop became really cool and and trendy and skateboarding and yeah skateboarding and grunge type of like yes I feel like sort of and we can hold our hacky sex. We took that with the music, even the music that was attached to skating and everything like that,

those type of bands kind of took a dip, you kind of, that music, everything that whole genre for, yeah, it was a good 10 years or so, it just took a major, so what did he say? What was his answer to pushing through all that? I wish I remembered the word for word, of course I don't,

but it was essentially something like, when you care enough about doing something, you're compelled to do it. And he, I think we talked a little bit about writers, how really good writers, they don't write, because they're like, all right, I should probably write another book. It's been like five years.

They're like, I gotta write this stuff down, because it's coming out of me like crazy. I gotta get it on paper, this is how I create stuff. I've gotta do it. It's like singers and musicians who are really, really good. They're not like crap, man. I just have no ideas for my next album. They're just writing hundreds of songs

and most of them suck, no make it, or they make it onto some other collection or something. But when you see those artists, the prints, those guys, like they're so much music. Look, Tupac probably has a new album coming out of the dead since I was in high school or middle school. He's killing it right now. He's killing it. So like those got, because they just wrote every day all day and he just was like, yeah, I just love skateboarding. Like I wasn't doing it for money, I was doing it to get

it going. And then he went into some detail about how motivation works, how high performers really feel about their craft and why it's important and compelling to get really good at your craft, even if kind of no one else cares. So I thought that stuff was super interesting and we did talk a lot about his business, protecting his brand because when he was younger and he gives a lot of funny examples on the show as well,

again, that comes out on Thursday. I wish I had like a quick, you know, the order charm.com slash Tony Hawk. Well, actually that might be it. Well, I tell you what, we can probably add that into this and we'll drop that and we'll send them over there. It's gonna be cool. Because he's always been somebody I've been intrigued about

because there's, especially at his time of coming up. Like now I feel like, you know, your little wings, your Jay Z's, like all your artists, and what's his name? Did the first double back flip on the Travis Pastrana? You all these big and he's created Sean White. I mean, Sean White took a lot of his entrepreneurship, and then he took that into like Target,

and he's like partnering up with him. Tony Hawk, yeah, Tony Hawk got into the clothing line. He was, I know he really pushed the video games, like he did a lot of really smart, entrepreneur moves in an era where it wasn't as as cool to do that or like it wasn't even really being done Right, it was like they licensed cartoons. They licensed maybe Man I cartoons are the one that's coming to mind readily. There's got to be a lot more I'm drawn a blank here, but they licensed Tony Hawk stuff and he's still

video games are amazing. Well, there's like, and there's like 32 toys. Yeah, yeah, toys. Yeah. But the examples he gives on the show, some of them are really funny, like backpacks and crappy wallets, and he sees this bad quality stuff and he gets really upset about that. And he talks about like how he handles that and why he's so anal. But at one point, and he recounts the story better than me, at one point, he walks into, like, he's pissed, he sees some crap at like TJ Maxx or Ross or something. He's like, this is just bad quality. What the hell, you know, I don't even remember this at all.

So he calls the licensing agents, and they're like, yeah, you know, we license everything, our contract says we can do kind of whatever we want. And he's like, this is, this isn't gonna work for me. So he goes down to their office. And he's like, this is, this isn't gonna work for me. So he goes down to their office. And he's like, guys, you can't be making crappy like plastic watches, stupid cartoony, silly like backpacks that rip and fall apart and are cheap. It's making me look bad.

And they go, actually we can do whatever we want according to your contract. And he goes, he looks up on the shelf and he goes, what the hell is that? And there's a role of, I'm not even kidding, toilet paper that says like Tony Hawk on it. And he goes, what the hell is this? And he goes, like, ass paper. And they're saying, see, Tony, we're killing it so good for you. We can print your name on toilet paper and it'll sell.

And he's like, how much do I need to buy my contract out? And he did? So you, okay, so that's how that works with some of these companies. So when these guys sign a contract, some of these guys give up the rights of what they use their name for. That's part of it.

If they're not smart about it. Yeah, and now he's really, really smart about it. I mean, just to get this interview, my producer had to call this guy Kevin Rose who used to run Dignation, whose friends with Tony Hawk, to get him to do it because his sister, Tony Hawk's sister, is his manager, and she's got crazy rules

around interviewing Tony Hawk, where it's like it can only be in this format, it can only be up this long, and they vet you, and it's this whole process. And there's no point in them vetting every opportunity that comes in because who cares? Right. Like, why would they go,

well, we've never heard of this. That's why you only see Tony Hawk on like Larry King and some other big name. That's a big fucking deal that he was on. It was sweet to get him on my ship. That's fucking right. It was lucky, too. I won't front.

That's awesome. I love the honesty like that. You've been on air for a long time with your show, right? Yeah, 10 years. 10 years. As of December, which is right. Yeah, 10 years. Congratulations. Yeah, that's awesome. Who's your most, I don't know, interesting guest? Favorite guest. Oh, yeah. Well, you can say favorite, at least favorite. I want an at least favorite too, which some podcasters won't go there. Yeah, you know, I can, yeah, it's funny. There's a lot of guests that I thought were really, really good. And I have them, I put them on this best of page.

And I feel bad because everybody's not on them. It's like, what about me? So I'm going to say, how about this? My producer made a best of page. I had nothing to do. Perfect. That's great. We're to use Doug for that. Same out right there. And, and that's, I don't know if you like URLs or if it's annoying, but it's at theartofcharm.com slash best. And it's like general stanley macrystal is one guy that we just had on uh... he was the theater commander in afghanistan and he got fricken fired by obama because rolling stone wrote this argy here about this real about a share share rolling stone wrote wrote this article

about him and they had like an embedded freelance journalist with him in his his staff and i guess they went out for drinks one night and some members of the general staff were like, yeah, Obama is not getting a done in Afghanistan or something like that. And they told this Rolling Stone journalist who's a freelancer and he put it in the article and then he got fired for that. And Obama's people found it and then he went and went, he got recalled or something like that to DC and he tells the story much better of course than I do. But he got recalled or something like that to DC. And he tells the story much better, of course, than I do. But he got recalled or went to DC for something and offered his resignation.

No, Bama was like, okay. Wow. I'm like, oh, damn, that sucks. It's like a Mandarin chief, man. You can't talk shit again. You can't, you can't do it. And I don't even think it was an ego thing for Obama. Honestly, like, by the way, he told the story.

It just seems like he got kind of painted into a corner where you can't look, it was like Obama's first term or something or first year, you can't look like a punk, you gotta lay down the law. Like when you first get into proving. Not even a conversation, right? It's just like, thank you very much. So no, no, move along, right? Oh God, how do you handle that?

How the hell do I have to, I asked him what he felt like and he was like, I'm not gonna lie, I was related to the point, because he'd been doing that, I mean, that must have been 30, he told me as well, 30 plus years, because I mean, he's at the top general in a combat theater, right? And he was the head of the special forces

at Joint Operations Command, all that stuff. So he was, he's like a serious badass, special forces general. And he was well known for being almost like a patent type guy where there's a quote from some British special air service guy and some, they're equivalent of like, their royal marines or something. And they're like, the guy's like,

so you'll be up at 3 a.m. and you'll see, I hear something in the trench and it's fucking Stanley McChrystal. And he's just like in the trenches in the middle of the night, you know, looking through binoculars and sip and coffee or whatever. Crazy. Yeah.

Okay, at least say man, someone that either annoyed you or somebody who you did not like interview. Yeah, who sucked? So I'll tell you right now, this interview ended up turning out well because of my engineer and my producer, my associate producer, they edited it like crazy. And I say this with a following caveat that I like the guy and I'm having breakfast with him in a month and I really appreciate it.

I'm like, but one of these said after that. He's a great person, but when I got Larry King on the show, he did not wanna be there at all. And he felt it. And man, I felt it. And I think it wasn't even really his fault

I think what happened was because when I called his assistant was kind of like oh And because first I call his his oh yeah, it was done over the phone right which is unusual for me But it was done over the phone because I'm like look Larry King is like 84. I'm gonna do whatever he wants He was at home I call his wife answers the phone with like, King Residence, I just thought, oh, okay. And then there's a long pause after I tell them

who I am, they're like, hold on. And then his assistant runs down and goes, yo, I'm gonna make this right, it's gonna be fine. And the guy was fine. I just, I don't know where the miscommunication happened on my end on their end, or if it was like set for a different date, but he was like, hello.

And he was clearly like trying to finish some food. And like, he just was, it was one of those days where he probably thought, I'm just gonna lay around all day and read the newspaper. And it's suddenly like, no, you're gonna be on air live with some dolt in like his apartment recording over the phone like a putts. So I'm gonna finish my sandwich. Yeah. Man, this is probably two years back. So I'm gonna have Larry King come back on Art of Charm

because it turned out to be really good, but I had to, I mean, I just had to like constantly cut and splice, like, cut and splice, and also just kind of, you know when I'm trying to think of a good example here, but it was kind of like a lawnmower engine that just won't start. You're just pulling on. Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of a good example here, but it was kind of like a lawnmower engine that just won't start. You're just like, oh my. You're timing them all day.

I kept having to do that over and over and over, but again, I don't think it was his fault. I think he did an awesome job after kind of like, whoever logistically had dropped the ball. And he's not, of course, not the worst guess that's ever been on AOC by any stretch. It's just a funny story. There's people who are so bad that they just,

it never airs, because there's people who won't let me talk. Like I'm doing to you guys right now. No, not at all. No, there's people who just like, every time you make a joke, they're just like, uh-uh, that's not funny. Like they won't laugh, or they'll tell you

it's not funny or they're not. There's a joke blocking is the worst. Joke blocking. Come on. Yeah, so you've had several guests that you actually never even aired them. Oh yeah. Okay, wow.

Yeah, I've had people on, and it's rare as hell now, because we vet people, and my producer's supposed to talk to them, we get prepping all that stuff. But there is the occasional guy who you have an introduction through a friend, like you introduced me to somebody and I'm like, this guy sounds cool, talk to him on the phone briefly, he's super entertaining or cool, or I don't, we don't have time for that

and then I look at him on YouTube and he's got like a great speech. And I go, this is gonna be really good and then I read the book and it's brilliant. And then I get him on the phone and he's just like, super tired, needs a cup of coffee, there's noise in the background because they insisted on doing it in a conference room because they didn't think they would come in to do it

in the studio, which I love to have. I prefer that, obviously, like you guys. I think we, yeah, for sure, in this way to go. And then, or they're just checking their phone a lot because something's going on, you know, and you're like, oh, man, come on. Right. So, I mean, you've been doing this,

you started doing this back when nobody, I mean, podcast come on. Right. So, I mean, you've been doing this, you started doing this back when nobody, I mean, podcasting was, right. How did people listen to podcasts back on their computer? You had to have iTunes on your computer. Now, why did you start, what made you start podcasting? I mean, because it was not a popular medium. It was not.

To do it over again, I definitely would have been a YouTube person, although it's so much easier if you are like a good looking girl to be on YouTube and make an audience, or if you have some sort of video in general. We all have faces for radio, that's what they say. Yes, like Mom always says. So you had to have iTunes on your computer,

and the reason I chose podcasting was because it started as a hobby and not a business. And the way that it kind of kicked off was I used to be an attorney on Wall Street, so I did like mortgage back securities and all this boring legal stuff. And I got hired by this guy named Dave, who was a guy from Brooklyn, but he had a tan, so I was like, this guy knows some, knows the age that I need to learn. Like, like, what's the deal with this guy? And he was always, like, limping around the office whenever I saw him some like four times because he had jujitsu injuries

and I was like, this is a partner at this firm that all the other partners are here every day. I'm here six, seven days a week. Partners are always here. Dave's been here three days in the last four months and he's this younger guy. And he's tan. And he's tan, he's from Brooklyn.

Fuck is this guy doing? I'm not doing it. He's going on here. He knows something. I wanted to figure out what the deal was, because when I was in middle school, high school, I was just, I was a smart kid. I was able to skate by on that, you know, the whole like study the day before the test kind of kid.

And but then in college, I, everybody was really smart. I couldn't do that anymore, but they were so busy getting drunk that I could outwork them. So then by the time I got to Wall Street,, you can't outwork them and you're not smarter than, well, I wasn't smarter than everybody else anymore. So I was screwed. I was like, it's only a matter of time until they figure out that I don't belong here.

And then that's the end of it for me. And so I basically talk to Dave as a mentor or kind of guy because people were like, oh, he's such a great guy and he always brings in the business. And I asked him, how come you're never in the office, but you make a lot of money in your partner. And he told me that it was because he brings in deal flow. And I thought, well, wait a minute. So you're out doing jujitsu and playing racquetball or squash golf, cruises and and charity events. And that somehow is more valuable than actually building hours inside the office, because even if you build $800 an hour, if you spend 18 hours with an investment banker or 80 hours over time and they give you a million dollar contract, now your time's worth like $10,000

an hour for them. And you can't build that. So what ends up happening is he basically just said, all right, if this is gonna be my highest, my Archimedes lover, I'm gonna do that. So when I heard that, that changed the way that I look at work forever. Because not only was this not trying to outwork everybody,

not trying to be smarter, but just sort of status quo, this is a secret path that nobody else seemed to have figured out yet. And I was like, I'm gonna focus on this. So I started focusing on networking, psychology, relationship development. And then I met up with my business partner, AJ, and he was a cancer biologist at the time.

And he was really, really good with women. And I was like, what's going on here? So I told him all about my networking, job searching, client building stuff. And he's like, wow, all that stuff sounds like the networking stuff you're reading and studying sounds a little bit like some stuff that I feel like I already know. And we would go out and try to build up our,

because he was gonna be a doctor or something like that, or a PhD, and he knew he needed connections. So I was teaching him that stuff, but of course, we're going out to bars to meet people after work in school. So we're running into women. And then the whole thing, as you might imagine,

quickly more from, let's figure out how to network and build relationships to holy crap. We can pick up girls, because we know all this stuff about body language and communication. We're getting it. We're getting it. So we started talking about a lot of that stuff.

And then from that, we basically decided that we were just gonna do this every day until we got it. And we went out like six, seven nights a week. We were always hanging out. And guys started to go, all right, what's the deal? I've been working here for three months. I see you guys every single time I'm working here. All the other bartenders know you. You don't wait in line, and patrons were noticing that too, and they're like,

you're with different girls, you're not waiting in line. I'm 24, 25 at this point in time, right? I'm 36 now. And you weren't wearing a magician hat? I wasn't wearing a magician hat. We weren't making things disappear, no card tricks, like none of that BS that all those other guys pick up dorks we're doing. And so like we basically started to get a little bit of a reputation about it. And that's when the underground following, this is before the podcast,

that's when this sort of underground following. So people just started following. Oh wow, so you started to create kind of like a a little bit of a following before even the podcasting, social media thing happened. Yeah, it was, it was like, you ever see that movie hitch where it's like, one of Malm's, you find out about Will Smith, it was kind of like that. People hiring you to teach them how to do this.

They were. And so we had, I remember these couple of guys that were from like, Lebanon or something, and they were like, look, we're having trouble assimilating. We don't care about meeting girls. Like, we'll figure that out later. We just need to know how to make friends because we're new here and it's tough. So we would teach them a little bit of that. They gave us like 400 bucks for an afternoon. And then another guy who was friends with them, he was really, really good at networking,

but he was like, look, I know you're teaching my friends to go out and meet people and things like that. I need to do that. So we took him to a mall and we had him talking with people and getting him out of his comfort zone is a business school Students it's a really successful guy and he thought that it was so awesome We I remember we were gonna charge him 80 bucks and he gave us four hundred dollars and he goes you guys need to charge more Oh, wow and so we started talking about this with other folks in words sort of traveled around, and we found ourselves almost holding seminars,

but not formally, where we would teach guys body language, vocal tonality, eye contact. We were teaching women too, but it was just mostly guys. And we were teaching them all this nonverbal communication. And then we found like, okay, we're basically having the same seminar kind of every single week for five times, because it was just, they knew where to find us, and then they would come, and they would buy us drinks or food,

or give us cash, and we would sort of take them under our wings, so to speak, for the night, and then maybe a couple guys would come back another time. So it was very informal, but we started to get that rep, and we started to get a little bit sick of having the same conversations over and over. So we came up with the idea of burning CDs and then when people would ask us about it, we'd be like, hey, here's just 20 bucks, just give it to them. We would carry it around. So I had a pocket full of CDs for like months.

This is, did you call it anything? Was it a art of charm back then or was it was? It was just like, you have a system that you had planned out like this is what you do here. Kind of, yeah, we just, we had like a basic toolbox that later became the toolbox for the Art of Charm, which was like banter, nonverbal communication, body language, eye contact, vocal tonality,

taking up space, and there were a bunch of different little topics that now escape me that are also, now having been redone over and over at thearticharm.com slash toolbox, which is like the basic set for charisma and magnetism and stuff like that. And so we recorded those and they were on CDs and I was giving these things out. I remember leaving a couple in like a bathroom because like people would go in there and grab our business card and stuff.

And the manager of the bar would be like, can't leave a couple of your CDs in the in the genre. Leave a couple at the bar and like, we'll hand them out for you. So we were doing that. This is pre-digital distribution. And then we were buying these CDs and we were kind of breaking even and we thought it was really fun. And then, AJ, my business partner, one day goes,

look, there's this new thing called podcasting where you can basically, instead of burning the MP3s to a CD, you can upload them onto a server and we could get like a shared server, rent some space from GoDaddy, upload those things, and then we can have like a really simple WordPress, I don't even know if it was WordPress back then, website, with links and people can download the MP3 files if they right click and choose Save As and all this stuff. That was it.

Wow. And that was how we started, and that was in 2006. You could play Oregon Trail and all that. How long played? You could play Oregon Trail. How long did you, and then were these analytics even available? Because I know iTunes are so stingy with stuff as it is for even us now. You know, how long was it before you started to see like, wow, we have a network here of

people like, yeah, it took a while, but luckily kind of soon after hosting companies started to pop up because there was no good place to host your podcast, but they were geekware, right? It was like, we have the only server that's designed to download MP3s, you know, Lipson or whatever it was way back then. And there was no YouTube at this point. Bear in mind, like YouTube basically,

I don't think it existed. I think videos were on Vidler, which doesn't probably exist anymore. I don't even know what that was. And if YouTube was around, it was brand new. I mean, nobody was on it. It was less popular probably than podcasting if it even existed.

And so we had our MP3's up, and people were downloading, I mean, we had this thing called Site Meter, which is like pre-Google Analytics, it measured things and hits. That was, which I don't think is a useful, I don't think that's a metric people use anymore. And so we were looking at that. I remember one day when we got sight meter installed the next day, we were like, we got 24 hits and we're stoked. We're dancing in the kitchen. We ordered a pizza. We cracked open a couple beers popped in like a movie or whatever. And we were like 24 people that we

don't even know got all of our voices in one day. This is insane. Oh my God. That has to be so nostalgic for you now. Like, talk, you're telling that story now, right? Yeah. And what's funny is this month, well, actually, sorry, last month, we hit 2.4 million downloads. Wow. So we are at, I don't even know the math, but like somewhere around the neighborhood

of like an ag, I don't know, what is that even like a hundred thousand times or something like that, the amount of downloaders we had on that day where we started measuring. So it was all pure, it was all because you enjoyed it, passion, when did it become your like your business? It became our business, it basically became our business when, this is interesting.

There's a couple of turning points, but it became a business that was profitable when we started doing the show and people kept emailing us, when can you teach us live or can I call you and pay you? And I was like, no, I don't wanna do that. It's a huge pain. And there was a couple of first guys that were like insistent on it.

And one guy was an immigrant from, I wanna say Ethiopia named Omar that lived in Denmark. And he was like, I cannot make friends here. It is so hard. What am I doing wrong? And I gave him a bunch of exercises, drills, and he would call me in with his improvement on Skype and we tracked it and charted it.

And I remember like at one point, he was just so stoked because he's like, I have friends now and I have a girlfriend, this is amazing and I'm still friends with him on Facebook. I should actually write him because it's actually, it's really, really cool to see. That was one of our first clients. Another one of our clients was a mortgage banker

that had stupid FU money and he was like he had parties at the Conducu Derby in a box, you know, probably cost like a hundred grand to have his team go down there. And he would do that. And he was talking with us about, he's like, I can't tell when women actually like me and when they just like the accrued remalms that I have in my life, so I need to filter for a real relationship. And I wanted to, you guys teach my sales team. So he, he was one of those guys where I was like, it's gonna be a hundred dollars an hour, because we were charging like twenty-five dollars an hour before that for that stuff, and then fifty.

He did even bat an eye, right? And he goes, all right, here's five grand, and also you guys need to charge way more. And I remember going, how many times am I gonna hear that we need to charge more before I understand it? So he just kept filling the retainer like a lawyer. And he's like, you're gonna be a lawyer, you gotta understand this retainer. All my service people are on retainers.

So I would call him and I would just bill him for the amount of time that we were on the phone. It was insane. But it was really helpful for him and he made a ton of money because the stuff he was passing on to his sales team about rapport building and all that stuff made him a ton of gold. Pay ten full probably. No, how did you learn these skills?

Like what made you develop these yourself in order to teach them? Or better do you know, do you know, can you connect to where all the way to your childhood where it's uh? Yeah, I can actually as soon as I take a sip of his water. Glob, glob, glob. Yeah, I can actually as soon as I take a sip of this water Such a such a great origin story man. That's so so crazy to think in that moment too when you're thinking 24 people I remember the first moment when we had like a handful of people are listening. We're like, oh my god This is so crazy. It's really cool. It's kind of how now you ever go live on Facebook for some reason and you're like I never really do this, but I'm gonna try it I try to once or twice once was like this a while ago

LAX had this scare where they thought there was a shooter and Everyone just ran out onto the tarmac emergency exits and I was there and I started live casting the whole thing On Facebook and I remember like I don't know 400 people casting the whole thing on Facebook. And I remember like, I don't know, 400 people that were watching it and NBC news was on Skype with me watching my live broadcast. And I was like, this is, this is kind of how it felt when I realized people were downloading my crap

on the internet. And so it's that sort of frontier where you're like, holy crap, people are watching this live. Because if you just upload a video, you can get a thousand views and you're kind of like whatever. It's just, it's up there and you're gonna watch it. But if they're watching you while you're doing it, it's kind of incredible.

They're talking about it. It is. It's wild to think that where we've come, how you can be directly connected to that many people that are paying attention to the exact same thing, like instantaneously like that. Yeah. And like news crews can't even get there in time

because of traffic, but I'm in there. And they're like, what's the situation now at LAX? And I'm just like, holy crap, I'm doing this right now. Don't you feel like that's gonna be an obsolete, like that business gonna be obsolete, right? I mean, like, largely, right? I mean, you're gonna need people who can write well and you're gonna need curation at some level,

except curation's gonna happen with artificial intelligence pretty soon. So they're gonna, it's gonna be like the Apple news apple Neatle work and it'll have like stories that only you like stories that only you like and even if their video and nature Their segments being produced for a global audience even if they produce a segment about dogs There's gonna be millions of people who want to see animal related segments 100% and they're gonna get fed that non-stop to see animal related segments. 100%.

And they're going to get fed that nonstop until the AI thinks, well, after about three hours of cat segments, it tin likes to hear about food because he's hungry. So let's put some advertising for Del Taco and talk about cooking related, health related stuff. Like, that's all going to happen. So you're going to get the type of segment you want when the computer knows it's going to be most interesting to you I can't remember how we get on this topic

Well, the original the original question was I wanted to know or we wanted to know where When you saw this these attributes in yourself and did you connect the dots of all the What made you bellow? You know, this is a this is a funny story too, and I hope the statute of limitations is run on the following This is a funny story too, and I hope the statute of limitations is run on the following criminal activity. But basically, when I was a kid, I was an only child, and my parents were going a lot of the time, and I got really interested in cellular phones, because I got a computer and I met these hacker guys that were messing around with the phone company.

So I started doing that, and then I started getting interested in cell phones and programming them. And I found that you could, with these guys that taught me as you could like go dumpster diving and get serial numbers from other people's stuff and from the cell phone store and you could listen and on their phone calls and I thought that's super interesting because I had 13. Which at 13 that is way interesting. It was super cool and you can program that cell phone so that you can make calls. So I was 13, I had a cell phone when nobody knew anyone,

anywhere that had a cell phone. I was 13 and I had one. And I had to tell my teachers that my dad got it for me because he was an executive at Ford and the company was paying for it or whatever. I had to make up a story

even though I worked, earned the money, bought it, and then of course stole the service from some unsuspecting guy. Wow. Because I was like, young criminal. But I started basically wiretapping where I was listening to phone conversations. And I remember one of my neighbors, because this is analog cell. It's not the internet where you're wiretapping somebody in the Philippines.

This is local radio signals in your neighborhood. So I would go sit near my friend's house and I could hear this guy talking on his cell phone. I guess he didn't have a separate phone line in this house and he probably had a company line so he didn't want other people to hear. He'd make calls on his cell phone. And he was getting a divorce and he would call his soon to be ex-wife

and they would have one variation of a conversation. And then there would be another phone call with him and his brother. They would have a totally different conversation about the same subject matter. He would call his boys and they would have this like machismo, I don't even care, kind of conversation that I thought was really weird.

And then they'd have a conversation with his sister where he was much more of kind of like a wounded animal. And then he'd have a conversation with his mom and he'd be like, why doesn't she love me, right? And I'm like, what the hell? This person is crazy. But I remember thinking this is, it's a free, unique perspective.

This is the first time I saw somebody as an adult as a three-dimensional human being instead of just like an authority figure that had nothing else but a stern face. And so I got really interested in people and that is what kind of led me to believe that you can learn a ton about what makes people tick and get their motivations. And I remember even as a 13, 14 year old kid thinking to myself, if he had the same conversation that he had with his mom and sister with his soon to be ex-wife before they got to this point,

they would probably have a pretty decent relationship because all this communication and vulnerability that he is totally not showing with his soon-to-be-ex wife, he's got in spades with the women that raised him, but there's some weird disconnect. And I remember thinking that at age 13, and I remember thinking like, there's something here where we're going to be able to figure this out. And I remember thinking about how to figure out women was a thing. And I would ask all my friends and each guy had like one idea and I started putting them together. And that's at that point then when I was in high school, I was like,

if I add up all these techniques and I start testing them, this could be really interesting. And I did that a little bit in college and then that eventually became sort of the beginning of the art of charm, because I was like, wait, if human psychology means that people are at some level predictable, then you can push the right buttons and pull the right strings, and you can get reactions that you want. Now, that sounds a little bit more manipulative

than it ended up being, but as a kid, that was really appealing. And now I realize it's not so cut and dry. You can't just push this button and this result will come out unless you're dealing with people that are highly suggestible or like maybe damaged in some way. So we had to and we had to sort of redo the formula if you will so that it works with people who have their stuff together that are smart, the kind of people that you want to be around. Because you don't want to just be pulling the strings on everybody and

you're controlling it. You don't want that. be pulling the strings on everybody and you're controlling it You don't want that people think they want that at some level when they lack control But then when you get it you realize I don't want to be the one who's telling everybody what to do So you have to have a different set of charisma where it's like people want it They have to want to help you they have to like you they have to enjoy your company They have to feel good around you, but not in that sociopath way where they're doing it to get a result. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Do you ever get into debates or discussions with academia, you know, psychologists, psychiatrists, you know, communication experts?

Do they ever come up to you and say, hey, you're right, you're wrong? Yeah, of course, a lot of the people on the show will come up and say, you're right about this. There's been other study, more so in the reverse kind of thing has happened where I'll read a science article that's like, study show that there could be a correlation between people who make other people feel good in these certain specific ways and having success in their life.

And it's like, yeah, no kidding. And they say these sort of vague things and they're like, we tested this by having people feel an affinity for one another by asking a specific set of questions. And I'll look at the set of questions and I'll go, this is basically the art of charm report building formula, but made is boring as humanly possible because they need to get like an academic set of results out of it. And so we have this running joke at the AOC offices where it's like, and once again, science

gets 1% closer to knowing and proving what we've been teaching for 10 years. Oh, that's great. And so we get a lot of research people on the show, scientists, neuroscientists that are, and I'm not saying, these dumb scientists, they don't know anything. What they're doing is proving what we know anecdotally right now. And I like to go on as much science as I can when we teach and create content at AOC. We love to be science-based,

but if there's no scientific study that, but we can show that this is working with our clients, we'll still use it. What we won't do is make up some crap, like a lot of life coachy guys, and then hope that it works because it makes sense. That's where we draw, obviously, well before that we draw the line.

But it's either gotta be science-based or it's gotta be something where the science is sort of pointing in that direction, but also we've done it 300 times. It seems to me like charisma or that type of intelligence, right? That there's a strong genetic component to that. Like most types of intelligence, right?

You some people are just naturally good at it while other people have to kind of learn how to be good at it. Totally. What makes someone charismatic? What are those things that, you know, because a lot of people do it without even realizing that they're doing it,

they're just good at it. So I will address that. It's a really interesting point because a lot of people do strongly believe that there's a genetic component and there is always a genetic component for some things. For example, we know that taller and better looking people have a better success.

Closing and stuff, right? In the sales, right? Yeah, sales and they tend to have more income overall, and we'll just have to take their word for it, given the current gene pool in the room. But like, we're just gonna have to assume that that science is correct, and hope that it's not correct.

But we know that that's sort of genetic component, right? And we also know that people who are maybe lack, they're a little bit less fearful of this because of that, that could be genetically influenced. But what we also kind of know is that most of the time, and this is also something that I would, I would have to take another strong look at this. But most of the people what we see is,

when you see people who are charismatic from quote unquote a young age, well actually let me back up a little bit. There's always going to be someone who goes, well, you know, I think it's genetic because my brother, he's really charismatic and I'm the quiet one. And you're like, well, maybe or what's more likely is that when they were younger, the older sibling, who's the quiet one grew up and, you know, didn't hang out with other people that much because the

Father was working more because they panicked and they had a kid and then when you get their life story it starts to come together right it's like oh yeah you know I had to entertain myself a lot and we couldn't afford latch key but then by the time you were born dad had enough money and mom was really working part time so the kids were more social because he did more activities and then at that point their sister was old enough to kind of have friends over, and those friends came over, and the youngest one was still in the house,

learning from girls in real life, what they were into, and they talked a lot, and the family, there was brothers and sisters, the older friends were there. So the young kid grew up going, people are awesome, and girls are easy to talk to, and I can make friends easily. Whereas the older kids grew up going,

I met Latchkey, I read all day, and then I watch TV and go to sleep. And those are circumstances that are underrated in terms of creating somebody's outgoing. And then when you have somebody's outgoing, it doesn't have social fear, they become confident. And when they become confident, that's a reinforcing pattern much of the time. So they grow up, and yeah, they get into sales and they're're killing it or they become the outgoing person who becomes, you know, the person who everyone loves and they're, it seems so natural and it seems genetic. Or you end up with a situation where it's like, yeah, my brother's the athlete. So he's the outgoing

one. Well, it's not that he got both sets of genetics outgoing and athletic. It's, he decided to utilize what's probably a very similar set of genetics became more of a sports interested person. And therefore got a lot of attention dealt with that attention by being quote unquote popular and acting the part, which means that they now seem like well they just grew up and they were the cool guy. No, it was a result of social status bestowed upon him by athletics, which he got because he started doing sports early and liked it. Whereas you did sports early and thought it sucked and ended up being the guy who joined

Boyce Gatsn instead, like me. You know, that didn't make it popular. And so it's very rarely is it actually genetic in a significant amount. I would say, of course, there's always something genetic like, well, my brothers on the autism spectrum, that's most likely genetic, that's going to cause problems socially, period, right? But if two guys born to the same parents, all those things kind of being equal,

most likely it's gonna come down to circumstances experienced early in life that make that seem like it's genetic. The thing that we're doing at Art of Charm is we're taking those circumstances, throwing people into the fire early enough so that they go through those circumstances in large part in a condensed fashion in our bootcamp or teaching them the things that they need to know on the show on the Art ofarm podcast, that they can then utilize, that are the things that people who learn this early on seem to know second nature.

So things like body language, vocal tonality, and eye contact can be learned. It's just that other people who look like they got it naturally, they just learned it really, really early on and they forgot that they knew it. They're unconsciously competent of those particular skills. And so it seems subconscious. The good news is that whenever you do anything consciously and deliberately in a focused

way, you can almost always overcome the people that have done this, quote unquote, naturally for a long period of time. Because your growth curve is like a 45 degree angle. It's like working out, right? If there's somebody, we know those guys are growing up that were just strong. Like, old someone's older brother, he's just like a strong guy. He didn't lift weights all the time.

He just somehow that guy was just jacked. And you know, he did gymnastics or something like whatever. So you have that guy, but then you go to the gym and you're like, I wanna be strong like Kyle's older brother. And you go to the gym and you work out, and you work out and you work out. And then three years later, you run into that guy and you're like, what want to be strong like Kyle's older brother. And you go to the gym and you work out, and you work out and you work out. And then three years later, you run into that guy and you're like,

what, what, what, this guy's not strong. He just looks strong because I was less strong than him because I'd never lifted a weight in my life. But now I'm looking at him and I'm like, this guy, why was I always so intimidated by this guy? It's, I tend to agree with you. And it's difficult to separate. Like they'll show studies that show,

reading to your children will increase their IQ by so much, but is it the reading or is it the fact that you have more communication with your children? Or people with advanced degrees tend to have more intelligent children. Is it that they are intelligent themselves? Is it their education or is it that maybe they have more time at home?

It's very difficult to separate those things. It's so hard, right? I believe people who have advanced degrees have more intelligent children in part because maybe genetics play a part, sure. But also, people who have advanced degrees aren't necessarily smarter than people who don't. There are people who have more time,

more money and more opportunity, but I guarantee you there are a lot of people. I mean, of course, there's a ton of people that don't have advanced degrees that are equally intelligent. It's just that maybe those people value education more, which is why they took seven years of freaking college. So of course, they're going to say, well, I'm going to make sure my kid goes to after school and math classes and have a lot of special attention to that. And so are they are they kids more intelligent or are they just better educated? Do we even know the difference between,

and I'm sure someone will out there. I'm just saying I don't know the difference between somebody who's highly educated and looks the part versus somebody who was born with just a sweet kid IQ as a genius. There are people clearly who have great logical processing that are genius level and can do math when they're, you know, eight that I can't even do right now, which is probably like long division, but you know, like that social intimidation or that anxiety or that lack of confidence when you're around people? Would you say that that's probably the biggest

contributor to somebody not having the kind of charisma that they want because, you know, anecdotally when I'm observing people, obviously alcohol, probably the most popular drug to use when people go out, alcohols, it lowers your inhibitions and people feel like they can talk to people and all of a sudden they feel charismatic, mainly because it makes you feel less inhibited. Right. Is that the biggest thing that prevents people from?

Yeah, it's definitely gonna play a huge part. It's social anxiety of any type and I'm not talking about like chronic clinical social anxiety of the type where you see very rarely where the person's like, I'm not going to leave the house. I mean, you hear about that, but it's so rare. I can count on one hand the number of ASC clients in the past decade that have said things

like, well, you know, I played World of Warcraft in my basement for 10 years and didn't go to any family functions and I need to recover from that. And you know, that's so rare. That's such a, like, a pathology. It's so rare. Most of the time, it's something like, yeah, I studied a lot in high school and then I studied a lot in college.

And I had friends, but then I graduated and I was an opportunity, it was really cool. But now I have a job and I realize, holy crap, I don't know how to make friends with people when I don't live with them. And I don't wanna hang out with the people from work because they're all old sales guys or whatever, or I only have three friends I hang out with at work.

And I just moved to a new town, what the hell am I gonna do? It's not guys who have tape on their glasses and tie their shoelaces together. It's guys and girls who are like, I just don't know what to do right now because I've never had to unplug, like turn the computer off and turn it back on again

and build a life or divorced people. I mean, imagine right now that this is what it's like to be divorced in a lot of ways. So I've heard this from AOC clients. Imagine that you woke up one day and you've never seen a smartphone because it's basically the kind of the same thing. Like you've never seen the internet.

So you don't know how to date online. You don't know how to text somebody in flirt. The last time you flirted with anybody was live and it was before mobile phones existed. You passed them a note. Yeah, you passed them a note. You met your wife, your ex-wife soon to be or your former, whatever.

In college or high school, where do you meet people, where do you date, how do you court them? It's all completely foreign. And so we get a lot of people like that who just need to come in and figure this stuff out. It definitely makes, I mean, what you're saying makes so much sense that it's a skill that you have to practice and learn.

But I think a lot of people get stuck in the belief. Like, you know, I'm just gonna be myself. And, you know, I don't and I don't wanna try to make friends because then that means I just need to be who I am and who I am is just this quiet person who's afraid to talk to people and I've heard people actually say that, like just be yourself and don't worry about trying to act like someone else and what do you say to people like that?

Well, there's a couple schools of thought here and I definitely understand that and I will say, I'll address both of them. So the people that usually say be yourself, if they're your close friend, they're looking out for you and they wanna protect you from what they think is probably some sort of scammy thing

if they're like, I'm gonna go to the starter charm thing. Like, what the hell, you don't need that? What they're saying is, if you acted like you did with me, and you could compress and condense the three years of experience or 10 years of experience I have knowing you and digest that essence and then somehow magically communicate that to the person you're interested in, you'll be just fine.

Because nobody says, well, here's what I wanna do. Cause here's yourself, right? You drive, when you go out on a date, you get a haircut, you put on a sweater, you never wear it, you wear a cologne that you never wear, you trim your beard, you know, you make sure that you out on date you get a haircut you put on a sweater You never wear you wear cologne that you never wear you trim your beard You know you you make sure that you look good get a pump or whatever the gym beforehand, right? Like and women are there Why the fuck you look at me like that when you say that?

Yeah, women are getting women are getting their motion to me or there head nod Little girl little girl women are getting their hair done or they're doing their hair They're putting on a nice dress or putting on makeup. Do either of you look like that? It's like that Chris Ross piece, right? You're there meeting your represent. Neither of you look like that ever. You're representative.

And it's like, they're meeting your representative. You're not being yourself, but what the other person means is, look, I like you because I know you really, really well. If you can communicate that essence to the other person, you'll be fine because at the base level, you're a likable, lovable person.

The problem is, that's a skill. It's a skill and it's not a helpful one because that person is the same person that will be able to tell you exactly what they think they should say, but not articulate at all what they should respond to. And here's a classic example of this from when I was younger.

I remember asking my buddy's sister, how to get this girl to be my girlfriend. It's probably 13 or 14 years old. I was really young. She goes, buy her some flowers and compliment her shoes and stuff like that. I did that and the girl was like, whatever. When I told my sister about that, she goes, that's so weird that would totally work on me. But then when we got older, I realized this girl

dated like motorcycle riding, kind of like bad boy guys. And I was like, that guy didn't buy her flowers. He makes her cry all the time. And he certainly isn't like, nice shoes, great handbag, Ginny, where'd you get that? No, he's like a guy who shows up late or not at all. And she's like into the guy because he has a tattoo on my bike. Totally. And I was like, what, they're totally different

dynamics at play here. And I remember joking about it with her later on because she's still as an adult was like, yeah, I'm just telling you, we're trying to get her brother a date with this other girl. He just broken up and got out of a long relationship. And he's like, yeah, I just keep telling him, you know, just be super sweet. He's such a super sweet guy. Just be super sweet. He's such a super sweet guy. Just be super sweet. And I go, my genius, would that work on you? And she's like, of course.

And I was like, let's talk about the last five guys you did. Nah, let's talk about the last two guys you've dated. And she's like, going through the stories, and I'm like, did either of them do any of the things we just talked about? And she goes, well, no, it's so funny. I've never thought about this. And I'm like, she's not a dumb girl.

She's a smart girl. She has a great career. The problem is, we don't know what we respond to. We can't articulate that. We only know what society says we should like. Oh, yeah. Very point. Very, very good point.

It's so crazy when you think about that, man. It's like automated response. It's automated and it's programmed into us by our childhood. And so, Janice isn't lying. The people who tell you that you should just be yourself. They're not lying. They're not steering you. Yeah. Poorly, they just don't understand what that entails.

There's another school of thought that says, to sort of address the other prong of that fork, which is, oh yeah, I don't want to try to be someone that I'm not. The truth is, what we teach at AOC is largely a subtractive process. It's not about adding fake layers to your personality. It's about getting rid of the weird insecurity that people have where they're like, all right, I got to take up a lot of space so I look cool and alpha and they do this weird, overcompensate body language.

And then it's like, oh, I got to tell cool stories because I read on the internet that if you make up a cool story about how you dated a model and you have a variety, girls will like you. So they're doing that. That's not being themselves, but also you're not being yourself when you go out and you try to normally, you just try to act casual or it doesn't work. So when people tell you to, I don't want to have to do this extra stuff, I totally agree with that. Don't add on extra layers to your personality, but please do get rid of the insecurity that says, that girl's not in your league or that job is in something you can do, or that you're probably not

smart enough to handle the conversation with these entrepreneurs. That's the stuff we need to subtract. And so, and also, maybe there is a third prong to the fork here. Largely the guys that really lean into, I don't wanna have to be someone I'm not. Those are the guys that really, really expect that the girl in their life is gonna be super bomb hot. Look, great workout every day, be tan, where makeup have great fake boobs and some hair.

And yet he wears like a dirty mustard saint hockey jersey. Baggy jeans plays Xbox, and it doesn't have a job. So those are the guys that tend to go insane. She should love me for me, and it's like what exactly says, and why do you think that you deserve what you want? You don't, you gotta work on yourself if you're gonna bring someone into your world,

and those are the guys that understand, okay, I don't wanna have to pretend I'm someone I'm not, but I sure as hell know that I've gotta do the work to deserve what I want. And so usually the people that complain about not having, I don't wanna have to be someone I'm not. It's like take a look in the mirror and make sure you, you, one, are working on creating

the person that deserves the kind of thing that you want. And two, that this isn't just parroting advice because you're too lazy to work on yourself. Well, just hearing that makes me think, okay, and I haven't been to your school, I don't even know the format really how it lays out. I would have to guess that probably the first day is almost breaking down these walls

and like major self-awareness. Is that like, is first day like this? The first day really is like that. So the first day we do, we videotape our clients working with our improv girls, which we have this like improv troop of girls that are super funny, super cool. They come in, they teach a little bit of improv, and then the guys learn how to start conversations with them. And this is for our guys residential program. This one's not open to

women because it's residential and they're packed in like a boot camp We do have coaching classes for women. It's just a different format So just to be super clear to the female Mind pump, or mind pump bets We'll go back to that because someone on the line is different. Yeah, yeah We can definitely talk about that, but the first day what we will do is We go over we do video work with the girls as well the ladies a OC ladies We go over, we do video work with the girls as well, the ladies, the AOC ladies, female coaches. And the reason, what we're doing is we're filming

they're looking for body language and little ticks. And the reason, we used to do this on like the third day, and it was really good because the guys could get a ton of skills under their belt, and now we do it on the fourth day and the first day. And the reason we moved it to the first day was this. One, we wanted to see dramatic improvement in short period of time to give guys some quick wins,

but two, and this is like one of the secret second reason here, is because a lot of guys were coming in going, there was one small part of them, or maybe a large part of them that said, I don't really need this. I'm not sure if I really need this. When you see yourself on video, blowing it, even though you're in a controlled environment

where everything should be okay, you have a really hard time telling yourself that you're too cool for school. It's very hard to refute the videotape when you go, wow, I look really bad right there. And then we teach you how to fix it and you go up and do it again and you can see the improvement

and then we tweak something else, and we tweak something else, and we tweak something else. When you see yourself on video like that, iterations, you see the quick wins, you realize, wow, maybe I do need this stuff, or if you came in thinking, I'm useless, I can't learn this stuff,

these guys are gonna kick me out of here, I'm not gonna get my money's worth, I'm never gonna learn anything, and you see those quick improvements, you go, wow, okay, I can do this. So now we do it on the first day and we do it on the fourth day because it's such a potent tool

to see yourself, see your nonverbal communication, see the way that other people interact with you, and realize like, holy crap, if this is what I look like in class, this is what I'm gonna look like when I go out and apply this, at least for the most part. And they're right, that's what happens. Well, so let's go back for a second.

I want to talk about the differences that you find between men and women. What do you typically have to teach women versus what you have to teach men in terms of? Sure. So we have a totally separate coaching program for women, as I mentioned. And there's a few reasons for that. One, the podcast that we teach where we talk about female oriented topics, dating related topics,

we're talking about different channels that men look at versus what women look at. So for example, guys, we look at appearance at signs of youth and fertility as a major, major consideration. Women look at that as well, however, it's probably, if that's like one third or 50% or 70% for guys, in terms of weight, for women it might be like 15%, 10%, something like that.

It's a much, we do, as both sexes both look at the same set of characteristics, but the importance is weighed so differently. So we want to be sure that we're teaching the right things to both men and women. That's just one of a few reasons. The other reason is that it's a residential program. There's a liability concern there. We actually don't want people hooking up. I don't want to deal with the drama. I don't want that in class.

I don't want territorial crap happening between guys and girls in the facilities so we don't mix the programs. We could run separate female programs and separate male programs concurrently at the same time. However, we found that a lot of guys are actually stoked to hear that they're in this bootcamp, roughing it, dormitory, roughing it at a nice mansion in Hollywood with a pool table. But there's a group element that is sort of this tribal, cool thing, AOC Brotherhood. When we put women in a very similar situation, it was a lot more like,

this is really just uncomfortable. I need personal space and I don't want to be mixed in with this. We found that the camaraderie thing did not happen in the same way with women as it did with men. And I'm not saying that women don't have a camaraderie and that they can't bond in that way. I've noticed this. It's just that the way that we were doing that

at the time was not working the same way for women. Analybility thing. And the other thing is, when guys are in a room, and we wanna get to the bottom of some crap that they're dealing with, and we're figuring out why are they overcompensating with their body language? Why are they acting this way, when they should be this way?

Why can't they be vulnerable, blah, blah, blah? If you put, we don't even allow journalists in there that are female, only under certain circumstances in for certain periods of time, because as soon as you put a female in a room with a bunch of guys, vulnerability ceases, walls go up, personalities start, that guys sit up in their chairs

and they start doing things like, yeah, I don't know, bro, instead of talking about their real thing that's going on. And so we just realized, doing things like, yeah, I don't know, bro, instead of talking about their real thing that's going on. And so we just realized it's like, it's kind of like spraying something in the air, and it may literally be some sort of pheromone activated stuff, who knows. But when there's a female anywhere around a group of guys,

there's competition, vulnerability, posturing, and that is exactly the opposite of what we need in order to be able to get in there. It's kind of like I'm trying to work on the engine of a car and someone keeps slamming the hood and Refrican head the whole time. I'm like, okay, if every time I turn around you're gonna slam the hood shut or on my hand Well, I got a wrench in there like I can't help you so we can't have mixed. It just doesn't so was there was there a specific you. So we can't have mixed. It just doesn't work. So was there a specific incident or time where you were you guys were trying it before and it was like, okay, enough is enough. Like I've seen enough like we can't do this anymore or did just over time you realize that it's better separate. We started teaching guys because it was just like I still wanted to focus

on skill skillsets that I was using for myself. We started teaching a little bit of females like on the phone coaching side. It turned out that our demographic of the early show, the early articharm podcast was mostly guys. It still is, but it's far less skewed male now. And I still mostly focus on what to teach men because women get a lot of advice from pretty decent sources and a lot of crap

from like gocker style, rags, cosmow, whatever. But there's a lot of advice from pretty decent sources and a lot of crap from like Gawker style, Rags, Cosmo, whatever. But there's a lot of advice out there for women and a lot of its decent. For men, the advice out there is complete crap. It's from Maxim where it's like, how to get a hot chick and it's like, I was gonna ask you to be a rubber crumb,

be cologne, it's like, get the fuck outta here, get outta here. You've heard of like the millionaire matchmaker and like all these kinds of shows and sprung up. So I was interested to hear your take on those shows and like, you know, what kind of advice, do you think it's sound advice that they're giving out or is there?

No, especially that show I think is just classic garbage. If you notice and I don't expect you to remember anything, episodes of that show, but all that woman does is yell at and berate the guy. Yes. And it's like not helpful. It's like the trainers on reality shows. Right. Exactly.

It's like, come on, you're going to be a worst, like I don't want my trainer to only have that function. That's the last rep only or something. I don't know. They got to have have that function. That's the last rep only or something, I don't know. They gotta have a real function. So that's a really good analogy that I'm gonna have to use at some point. The millionaire matchmaker is to reality TV show trainers

as kind of the art of charm is to like an actual trainer who's like, okay, here's your diet plan. Here's why we're gonna work on these muscle groups. You've got some rotator cuff issues. We're gonna have to work around those, but that doesn't make for good TV. It makes for boring. It'd be boring, even though it would be super useful.

So for a show that's about dating on television, it's always like, oh, well, I'm gonna yell at them and embarrass them and tell them to stand up straight and like, dress them like an idiot or dress them not like an idiot, even though casting had them walk in the sweater vest because I need to fix your disaster. But it's never going to be that simple, right? So I think that stuff is just pop crap. And it's especially for guys, if you wanted to get advice to become a better man, even you're watching Million or Matchmaker, you're in so much trouble, except for what are your alternatives?

You can look for advice for women, you can try to read a bunch of weird self-help books that are like, Wish it won't it? And you can do it! Like that stuff is garbage too. It's not useful, has its place, maybe in some respects, but then where are you gonna get advice? You only have friends and family to talk to and what do they say? Be yourself. So it's not helpful. There's no real source of advice for guys. And that was true 10 years ago. It's somehow still true now. There's other podcasts and shows out there and you guys have advice for guys, especially in the fitness arena. I would imagine the health biohacking. So there's more thankfully good advice. But unfortunately, with the fact that we now have this access to give really good advice, there's also so many people that we now have this access to give really good advice,

there's also so many people out there that are like, hey, if you take this as a side barrier, totally gonna lose weight. No, it's money grab. So we're still fighting to be a credible source of good advice for guys, and nobody seems to be super interested in that as you guys have probably seen. The only competition were crappy magazines

that were like literally there were magazines doing product placement in advice articles for guys. Where it's like, first of all, you got to smell good. We like Abercrombie Cologne or Dolce, like what, and I'm thinking holy crap, you're putting a product in there with a price next to it and it's supposed the advice article for dating advice and it's supposed to leave advice article

for dating advice and your first tip is smell good. What happens if you're a guy who's emotionally got issues, you just got out of a long relationship, it's not because you smell bad, you're doing a hundred other things that are more wrong in smell good. A hundred. It's so mirrors what we're doing.

Oh, I know, if you could just only imagine our uphill battle, top supplements, seat heads, meet head guys, and then trying to get this health and wellness message across to them and say, no, listen, you can look badass. You could have the physique that you want to look if you want to look like a bro, but you don't have to act like a bro.

Trying to get that message through is for sure an uphill battle. I mean, I feel like we're slowly, but surely penetrating that market. I think we're definitely probably listened to by more women than we, I think more women about our programs. I think we've looked into that already.

I don't know if that is for you or not, I don't know if you're more male or female dominant. Much more male dominant. I mean, the last survey we did is probably like 80% men. It's probably more like 75%. I would imagine because, probably because when it comes to courtship, society know, society makes it like the man Is the one that does the approaching true? And so, you know, you know, if you're a woman and you go to a bar

You know and you're hanging out. There's probably guys are gonna come up and talk to you If you're a guy and you go to a bar and you stay to yourself nobody's gonna come up No, he's gonna go and those are the early days of the show like now as we talked before Tony Hawk Stanley McChrystal I've got a lot of neuroscientists that stuff is completelyisex. The advice we've given has been mostly unisex for years and years and years. However, I will still speak from the perspective, oh this was the final pillar kind of thing. I only want to speak from my experience perspective. So if I don't have experience in a given area, I usually try to get a guest to come on and talk about it. However, and I will give

advice here and there based on like, well, knowing what I know, this is the best course of action. However, what I won't say is what millionaire matchmaker does, which is, oh, all you need to do is this, this, this, and this. How do you know? As far as y'all know, I've never been a woman. I'm gonna spray tan. Right, just get a spray tan. So it makes no sense for me to go out and tell a bunch of female AOC listeners, well, you know, in order to get more dates, you need to be doing this, this, this, and this. Because I can't speak from experience, all I can do is it's all conjecture.

So I gotta get a guest on there that knows their stuff. I don't wanna have a guest every single day and talk about something when I have plenty to save myself. So that's why a lot of the advice excuse me. So your dilemma, right, is the same dilemma that we had with creating programs, is we knew that everybody wants just a quick answer. What should I do?

What is it, and the message that we give is like, it's not that simple. And part of your... No quick fix. Yeah, the part of you figure out what program is best for you, or where you need the most help, is learning how to connect these dots and like really learn to reflect and look at yourself and look at the things

where all this comes from, like, and listen to you talk about even the art of charm and that it's not as simple as like, you can't just give me this phone call and me and tell me, hey, I'm having problems with this, I can't do this, I can't do that, what do I do? Although, doesn't it seem like that's what people want though, they want to. They do, yeah.

And I totally understand that. When I first started doing any of this stuff, any self-help related stuff, or personal growth related stuff, we didn't even call it that back then, like in high school and college, I just wanted a solution to the problem. I wasn't like, oh, I'm feeling a little social anxiety, so I need to get more confident by being able to be more comfortable in my own skin and that comes from learning nonverbal communication and body language and being able to read others and developing emotional intelligence.

Uh, no, screw that. What do I say to girls that I want to be? And if you're not going to tell me that. You're going to be damn panties on. Right. Like if you're not going to tell me that then I'm going to move right along to the next thing. What's the magic phrase? Right. Right. And that's how marketing works on low end, right? and I'm gonna move right along to the next thing. What's the magic phrase?

Right, right. And that's how marketing works on low end, right? Like when you look at a lot of marketers and Yorniche, for example, the guys who have the dumbest audience and coincidentally, not coincidentally, the youngest audience as well, those guys, their sales letters in marketing

are all like, get shredded in two weeks. And so people are like, why would I wanna get shredded over a year with Mind Pump and be smart when I can get shredded in two weeks with Xenadrine XXL? I'm just gonna buy that. Yeah, we sell a program that's nine months long.

Yeah, which is like nine times longer. E-referencing, we talked about that the last time we got together. So you pointed out some things that we're right away like glaring about guys, right? We do this like douchebag move where we posture and we start talking bro, like what were some of the things

or common things you found with women that were their challenges or their major row blocks with moving or progressing in the art of charm? Yeah, I mean, this, basically everything that applies to one sex applies to one sex applies to both sexes, just not in equal measures. So there's a lot of posturing that women do, especially when other women are around,

which is fortunately not that big of a deal when it comes to dating most of the time, because guys are just like, I'm going for the one that I want anyway, or all of them, or whatever, right? They don't care. But there's a lot of what I find women are doing, especially with the dating stuff.

And again, this is secondhand observation in my own observation only. It's not, this is not like a scientific study that is applicable to everybody. A lot of what is keeping women from dating is not, oh, I can't get a guy to say hello to me. That's very rare. Usually where men's relationships fail is before the first date

And where a lot of women's relationships fail are on date number three or four or five Because this stuff comes out later. They're getting asked out all the time generally There's exceptions of course and we can go down that road later But it's the less interesting in my opinion a lot of what's keeping women from being in the relationships that they want are poor communication skills, using drama to try to control situations instead of using communication to control situations. Guys do that too. Again I want to be super clear that anything that applies to one sex applies to both sex

is just not an equal measure. The drama thing I think happens probably an equal measure. But there's a lot that goes along with trying to not get hurt again, playing defense. A lot of women do that. Guys do that too to some extent. Women seem to do it more because as guys, and you know this because we've probably done it, like every guy that I know has totally screwed over some girl at some point in their life emotionally, like dumped them for no reason or dumped them for a terrible reason or dumped them in a harsh way because they didn't want to deal with it. And that's something that sticks with a lot of women for a long time.

So if they don't sort of get that processed, then it stays around for a while and can infect. Our baggage always infects our next relationship. The problem is if it's a vulnerability thing, that's going to be a serious deal breaker for guys and girls alike. But using drama to control situations seems to be something that guys and girls both do. However, I see it more with women, not because they do it more, but because guys screw up in other ways faster.

Does that make sense? Like a guy will blow it by like doing a million other things wrong, like showing up wrong or like saying something stupid and being insincere, being inconsiderate. Well before the drama to control the situation can even play a role. They can't even get to that state. They can't even get to that mistake. That mistake is like ten weeks ahead of where they blew it. But women will often get to a point where they'll be using drama to control a situation and that is

That works on the guys that they don't necessarily want to be with long-term. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, so that's the problem is you end up filtering the filtering in the wrong partner because you're able to Control that person and you're like great. This is working. I can do it and then after a while you're like, great, this is working, I can do it. And then after a while, you're like, this guy's play-do, I'm so not attracted to this person. I gotta get outta here. And then you've created a monster because then the guy's like, no, Angela, I love you. Right? And then you're like, oh no, I've got a stalker.

And you're like, what did you do to create this situation? Sometimes nothing to be fair. He's a lot of stalker guys out there. But sometimes it's like, you made this, you made this Frankenstein in your basement. Because it's not the first time. This is like the ultimate. This is the third one.

It's another stalker, Janice. How did that happen? There's one coming in the stalker situation. Yeah. Right. And another one. Hmm. Yeah.

I'm hiding behind that bush over there. How much, how much of the business? Because I mean, God, you've been doing this for 10 years. So I would think in this era of social media on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and make sure you do your relationship status. How much of your business has had to mold and change to teaching that because I feel like this is almost a new,

especially for us guys that are born and they're we're 35 plus years old. That shit didn't exist.'t even seem like inform us. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so to be clear, are you talking about how we sort of started to shift? Actually, can you just repeat the question, Claire? Yeah, I'm like, okay, so I mean,

if you were 10 years ago, this is pre-Twitter, this is pre-Instagram, this is pre-all of that way of communicating, and sometimes we talk, and we've talked about this before, like man, one of our first episodes, we did what was a decline in the modern man, we got into, you know, is that, is some of that the technology and the,

now we don't have to have the same social skills as we had before because everything is like on this phone and instant connected connectivity and stuff. Does that affected, do you feel like you have to speak to that? Like in the school, like, listen, you know, just because you can send an emoji or whatever like that, and that's not real communication. Is it different set of skills? Yeah, it's a different set of skills.

It's good. You'd point it that out, because exactly when this is so funny and it totally puts a date on everything, but texting wasn't even popular in the US until what like 2007 or eight or something. And even then it probably took to like 2000. I bet if we look at it, it's peaked around, you know, 2011 or 12 or something, right? It's new ish for us here. So we wrote a book about this that is so goofy

and outdated now, but we did a bunch of shows about this and we still talk about this where it's like texting how to keep a girl or a person interested in you for a longer period of time. Why you shouldn't be developing rapport through texting and social media, why you should only use it as an attraction phase type thing, flirting, logistics only.

Like we did a whole thing about that. I knew you would have got into this. Oh yeah, man, big time. You have to because it is. It's so different now. That's part of the dating world now. If you don't learn that skill, it's very difficult. If you can't go on and write something,

like if, all right, maybe you're not on match.com writing like, hey, Angela, I really love your profile pic. I really like dogs too. Let's go surfing sometime. Right. You had to do that at some point in 2000 and whatever if you were in the dating pool, you had to be adapted sending messages on sites like that.

Now you have to be good at the instantaneous kind of tindery type stuff, which is essentially texting with a couple of twists, but you have to be good at that because if you're just like, hey, after you match and the girl's like, hey, and you're like, you're cute. Wanna hang out? You're immediately doing whatever the other guy does.

You've gotta stand out. There's all these little strategies. And I guarantee you now, we're not going down this road, but I guarantee you right now that there's gonna be, if there isn't already, and it may be of dubious quality, so I'm not recommending anything. There's probably some dating coach person out there who's like 25, and it may be of dubious quality, so I'm not recommending anything. There's probably some dating coach person out there who's like 25 and is like,

this is the Snapchat game. And this is how it works and this is how you send your messages and this is when you do it and this is why you make this length of message and don't do messages with your shirt off because that's played out. There's gonna be some guy out there. Some dude's sneaking the know, at the end. Yeah, like for a second, just but like it's subliminal,

you can't really tell. Yeah, it's kids in, it's vanished, it's bleeding. It's like, is that your dick? You have to say like, it's all like neuro-linguistic programming with pictures. Can I get you a check on my watch? Yeah. Yeah, that's not your wrist.

Oh, it's 12. It's high noon. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's, there's gonna be some's high noon. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, there's going to be some science, and I put this in air quotes, science, going on where guys are working on that because there's demand for it. It's not where we're headed. I mean, now, like, now we've got Peter Diamand is coming on next month to talk about the

future of AI and how that's going to affect human behavior. So we've taken a much more mature turn direction, I like to think. So speaking to that, so one of the things, I mean, right away, when we, I remember when we first met you, we all headed off, we all had great things to say about you. When we dug through the podcast, like, do this is so cool. Definitely something that we would want to promote. Something we all want to go to. I think it would be great for all of us to experience for the week.

Where do you see the business going? Are you, I mean, really, where you're at now is where I see it, where we want to be with fitness, right? We want to have these very similar, like either weekend or week long courses, where we teach all this programming and teach you how you even had to sell the programs, how do you build this virtual business online? So we have very similar things as far as like our goals.

Now, where do you see yourself from here, or what are you trying to do with the business? Like, yeah, so I'm trying to, I love doing the show. Like, I love to talk, I love to interview people. I want to make that audience larger because it gives me a cool way to influence people in a positive way. So that's what I like to do.

Creating products and services for the people that listen to the show is what we're doing now. We've got a networking product that's all online. It's both for guys and girls, guys and gals, I like to say. Because sometimes I guess you can't really say girls now in certain parts of... We actually don't know how to do that. We're still in Austin, didn't we Adam?

Oh yeah, I do. So funny you bring that up. We were in Austin Tech, this is just last week. And we were at the on and academy. We're getting these, they have these little smoothies. There's like three little girls, cute girls behind the bar and this guy and their servinous are smoothies.

I'm getting triggered. We totally tell them to, you know, hey, you choose, we've never seen this menu before. Whip us up a cool drink and the girls are like, all right cool, we're gonna make you this. I'm like awesome. Taste and I was like, and right away I tried taste. Whip us up a cool drink and the girls are like, all right cool, we're gonna make you this. I'm like awesome. Tasted and I was like, and right away I tried to taste it. I was like, oh man, great job girls.

The drink was awesome. I'm saying that and right when I'm saying that, there's this girl just kind of looks up at me in the corner of her eye and she's just like, goddesses, lady, my nethas. Yeah, lionesses and she starts like, lionesses, that's a new one. Like Ramway and it took me a minute for to pick up on it

and she was referring to me, referring to the girls as girls. Oh man. It was like, it was disrespectful. So much to the point that we got our drinks we left, and then I felt obligated to go back, and I said, hey, I just wanted to apologize to ladies. I didn't mean to disrespect you if you felt

like referring to you as girls as that was dis, and they were all laughed and said it was no big deal. But obviously somebody had it in this shoot. Like could you not just totally wear all your emotions on your sleeve? I don't know. Yeah, did you? It's funny, you should mention that.

Cause I just talked about how people put their... The any input comes through your own emotional filter first. So if you're insecure because you feel disempowered as a female, well, somebody saying, thanks, girls, is going to be super offensive to you. But if you're comfortable in your own skin and you grew up around that and it's not insulting, in fact, it can be a term of respect or in dear, my fear, you know, any way that you want, then you don't care at all. It's all about the way that she was processing that.

It's really emotional. And if I was at my home turf, the asshole with me would totally call it right out. I would ask you. You can call them whatever you want. As a girl, you're allowed to do that. Bye. I don't, I just don't want to be that old dude that just doesn't just doesn't change his birthday. Doesn't get it?

Yeah. Uncle, you can't say that anymore. But, but when you get to a certain age, you're allowed to do whatever you want. I think 70 is that where you can grab like fucking grab asses. Yeah. Slap on the one. Great job.

Great job. Duts. Yeah. Yeah. You get away with that. That's a guy. Adam does that to Doug. You get away with super awkward.

You just don't let me go to get away with you. Oh, yeah. Come here, sugar bitches. I need another iced tea. You sure does. So serving wench. So yeah, the future. You're going to tell me the future

of where you're going with this. Yeah. Oh, so we do have a Unisex product social capital. It's about networking. It's for guys and gals, ladies, line-esses, whatever. Thank you, I'm a line-esses. And that is all about networking, reaching up into your organization to higher ups,

reaching across laterally in your industry, getting jobs, becoming somebody who's a central figure in your industry, creating a little bit of a platform so you become more well-known. That's our social capital product, and it involves coaching, and there's drills, and exercises, and workbooks, and stuff like that. It's all online. That course is really cool. Next year, we've got a monthly course coming out where we're going to have more in-depth learning and workbooks that where like maybe Larry King when he came on the show talked about, here's what I learned in 60,000 conversations, but what he might come on and do

it be like, here's how I elicit really good stories from people and then we'll talk about that and that'll be like a monthly thing with a workbook and exercise. And we let the AOC fan base, the fanarchy decide where that goes. So if that, if there's enough months coming up where it's like, I want to learn how to deal with this relationship issue, we'll create that content and deliver that to everybody. And that's sort of a monthly thing. So that's our, our online products are, our big, our boot camps is much as we do sell out two to three months in advance, we do and deliver that to everybody. And that's sort of a monthly thing. So, that's our cool. That's our online products are big. Our boot camps, as much as we do sell out two to three months in advance, we do want to expand and do some

in other parts of the world, it's going to be kind of hard to do this stuff in every city, but we're definitely looking at like, we should do one in Sydney, we should do one in Tokyo, we should do one in Munich, during October, first. You know, stuff like that. We've done stuff like that in the past. It was kind of a pain and we had all this logistics,

but now we've got a real team, not just like three dudes living in an apartment. You know, we've got a budget, we've got assistance, we've got real ways to make it work. I mean, to put it this way, the last time I ran an overseas bootcamp, we didn't have mobile phones that would work in other countries. Remember that, shit?

Come on. That's crazy, dude. That is so crazy. That's very cool. Before we sign off here, quick tip on body language. That we, that, some of our listeners can take away. Yeah. Here's, here's a drill that I love

that I, I'm glad you reminded me of that because I meant to teach this, especially to this audience. It's called the doorway drill. And the reason it's important is because when people decide, all right, I'm gonna work on my personal magnetism, my confidence, it always comes down to your first impression and one common misnomer of a common mistake, I should say,

or misconception, is that your first impression is the first thing you say or the first thing that you do to create an impression in other people is not. Your first impression is when you become a blip on their radar. And so what that means is it's when they see you. It's not when you decide to make your entrance.

And so to put this in a context that's sort of along the lines of what we were talking about before, imagine I come downstairs into a bar, my friends are on the right side of the bar, there's a group of goddesses, lionesses, whatever on the left. And I'm like, oh, those girls are really cute. Oh, damn it.

Those are right. All those women are really cute. I want to go talk to them later as soon as I have three jacked Daniels and Coke or something like that. So you go meet your friends and you have some drinks. And then after a while, you're like, I'm going to go over there and say hello, right? And so you walk over there and you're like,

hey, what's going on, ladies? What are you drinking? And they're like, shh, no thanks. And you go, damn it. And you go back and you tell your friends and they're like psh, no thanks. And you go damn it You know, and you go back and you tell your friends and they're like oh you said that that's so stupid You got to have this cool clever pickup line. Well, here's all these things you did wrong It's not what you did wrong what you did wrong happened 20 minutes ago when you walked in and yeah Your hands in your pockets are you were looking down your friend made fun of you and they caught that and you didn't react or you did this

Other thing or you you're not taking up enough space or you're taking up too much space and you're over compensating, that was your first impression. Not this crap thing that you said when you slid down and walked over there, that had nothing to do with it. They already had their minds made up. Because you were a bloop on the radar.

So what this means though, is that you're making your first impression nonverbaly 99.9% of the time. Because you're seen before you're heard almost every single time, unless you're gonna come into each venue and go, I'm here and I look confident on that. And I have open positive Bible language.

And I'm actually, I'm so do you guys have to do that. I'm here. I start playing air guitar. I've arrived. It works. Congratulations everyone. Like Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. Nailinew!

This is so true though, because I've always told, I've always told people that when you meet somebody that has that charisma, they have an aura about them before that even anything comes out of their mouth. It's the way they carry themselves, the way others look at them when they come in the room. Yeah, that too.

Right. The way other people react to them. That's so powerful. If you walk in with this. Have your friends walk in first, you walk in. They don't know that your friends have your friends react real strongly to you. Whoa.

That guy's awesome. It's even Boom. But it's even that guy's awesome. It's even though like, it's even that interaction, like they're observing, even if they don't realize they are, they are observing that interaction. Like you said, you walk in, you come in, you already have this confidence. As soon as you walk over to your boys and you're talking to them, you don't seem to be the friend

who comes over and just kind of blends in. It's like also, you lead the circle. Like if you have that aura about you, you're already closing the deal before you walk over and you say of blends in. It's like also, you lead the circle. Like if you have that or about you, you're already closing the deal before you walk over and you say anything to those ladies because they've already decided like, oh, this guy's the man I could just see, you know? Exactly.

So here's where the doorway drill comes into play. Right. So in order to get better at nonverbal communication, you've got to do a break a lot of bad habits, bad posture, closed body language like arms crossed or weird bad eye contact, things like that, crappy rounded back. All this different stuff that a lot of people do, even subconsciously, maybe they'll lean

up against a wall and then close their legs or something like that. All those are subconscious signals of fear, not trying to take up enough space, things like that. There's a lot a little weird thing. So we do this drill where we teach people to stand up, sit upright, pull your shoulders back, chin up. It's hard to do without going off mic in this chair, but you guys get the idea. It's a pretty standard good posture,

open body language, smile on your face, and you don't have to exaggerate it too much or you'll look like an idiot. But here's the problem. Guys and girls will then go, I'm gonna do that. Next time I go to a networking event or next time I go out. What happens one minute after you go out

and you're gonna work on your body language? You just forget. You just forget, it goes out the window, it's not a habit. So what the doorway drill does is it relegates your non-verbal communication to the, as a matter of habits, so that you don't have to focus on it.

Because even if you're really good at focusing on things and you think, no, no, no, I'm really mindful, I can do this. I'm going to set an alarm every five seconds. When you're in an interaction with somebody else and you're trying to micromanage your nonverbal communication, you can't be present and have an interesting conversation at the same time. You have to relegate it to the level of habit. So the doorway drill is that upright shoulders back, chin up, chest up, not to exaggerate,

smile on your face, open body language, but you do that every single time you walk through a doorway, even in your own house. So every time you go through a doorway, you straighten up. And you're going through doorways all day, every day, in your office, at work, when you're not at work, every single freaking day. So if you can remember it even 50% of the time, you're going to start to remember it more and more and more and you're going to get that habit down. Then when you walk down stairs the next day or the next few weeks, next months, whatever, to go to Starbucks, what happens when you walk in the door, smile on your face, open positive body language, you're looking good,

right? That changes the way that other people react to you, which we mentioned earlier, which changes the way that you start to behave entirely, not just nonverbaly. It's a positive reinforcement cycle, and that door, it starts with that nonverbal communication, which changes your first impression, which you change and create a habit with the doorway drill. Does that make sense?

100%. Great advice, man. So awesome. Great to have you on the show, bro. Yeah, this is super fun. I kind of want to do this like every single month. No, dude, just the fact that you're down the street, man, we are definitely gonna hang out more for sure.

So excited to have you in such a pleasure, man. Thanks for coming on, man. I'm your friend. We hope our listeners check out your podcast. Yeah, the art of charm. We already listened to a podcast. You might as well pick up another one. Yeah, exactly.

Listen, if you like Mind Pump, leave us a five star rating review on iTunes. If we like your review and we pick it, you'll get a free Mind Pump T-shirt. Also, don't forget to check us out on Instagram. At Mind Pump radio, you can also find me, Sal, at Mind Pump Sal. You can find Adam, at Mind Pump Adam, and Justin at Mind Pump Justin. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy,

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