Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 470: Dr. Layne Norton on Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, IIFYM, Sugar & the Supplement Industry

Episode Date: March 9, 2017

Dr. Layne Norton made the trek to the Mind Pump Studios for a 4 hour conversation with the Mind Pump Crew. In this episode Sal, Adam and Justin go deep with Layne into the subjects of powerlifting, bodybuilding, sugar, IIFYM, the supplement industry, internet trolls, biases in research and more. Get our newest program, Kettlebells 4 Aesthetics (KB4A), which provides full expert workout programming to sculpt and shape your body using kettlebells. Only $7 at www.mindpumpmedia.com! Get MAPS Prime, MAPS Anywhere, MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, MAPS Aesthetic, the Butt Builder Blueprint, the Sexy Athlete Mod AND KB4A (The MAPS Super Bundle) packaged together at a substantial DISCOUNT at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Make EVERY workout better with MAPS Prime, the only pre-workout you need… it is now available at mindpumpmedia.com Have Sal, Adam & Justin personally train you via video instruction on our YouTube channel, Mind Pump TV. Be sure to Subscribe for updates. Get your Kimera Koffee, Mind Pump's first official sponsor, at www.kimerakoffee.com, code "mindpump" for 10% off! Add to the incredible brain enhancing effect of Kimera Koffee with www.brain.fm/mindpump 10 Free sessions! Music for the brain for incredible focus, sleep and naps! Please subscribe, rate and review this show! Each week our favorite reviewers are announced on the show and sent Mind Pump T-shirts!

Twas the night before Doug released the podcast the long awaited first interview with Lane Hopefully not the last the pump heads were nestled all snug in their beds while visions of squats and deadlifts dancing their heads Sal just in an atom were sitting in their chucks relaxing a bit giving no fucks When from in the studio there arose such a clatter they jumped up and yelled god damn it Doug What's the matter? He calmly spun around and up from his chair. he stood, smiled and said, not to worry, boys, all is good. The sound you hear or the cheers from the faithful, the lane episode has dropped, everyone

is grateful. The boys just smirked and then exclaimed, happy mind pumped to all and to all a good day. As they turned back around, Sal said, hold on, just one more thing. If you like Mind Pump, give us a five star rating, the end. Wow. That's really, who did that? Justin Alcorn, it was amazing. Yeah.

I had to read that because it was so epic. That's brilliant. Yeah. Absolutely brilliant. I love, I'm fucking love our feeling. You can't choose the feeling. I feel like we're slowly collecting all the intelligent fitness people out there. Yeah, you know what?

And creative ones, right? And stuffing them into our form. It's true because stupid people don't enroll in the forum. We have yet to see that. Yeah, that is a great thing. Well, I'm just saying, you know, if you've been enrolled in the forum, you're smart.

If you haven't, you might be smart, but you might be stupid. You know what I'm saying? Think about that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, to insult 90% of our audience. In fact, that's our promo this month. Right? That's our promo. The probably the best thing that we offer and all of our listeners is our private forum because you have a collection of fitness professional scientists, doctors,

lots of physique competitors, bodybuilders, bikini competitors, and of course me, Adam and Justin are on their daily. We could just get into more specific detail, let's be honest that way. It's just this amazing, mini universe of awesome information, support, people posting videos of their form on squats, with critique, and nutrition questions, and funny memes, and it's just a great little community. And this month, we are actually giving away that access for free. All you need to do is enroll in either the RGB bundle

or the Maths Super Bundle. So here's what they are. The RGB bundle includes Maths and Obolic, Maths Performance, and Maths Esthetic. You follow them in order. It's nine months of exercise programming with different target adaptations as you go through. It's one of the most comprehensive You follow them in order, it's nine months of exercise programming with different target adaptations as you go through.

It's one of the most comprehensive programs that you'll ever find anywhere and the MAPS Super Bundle includes that but it also includes MAPS anywhere, which is the equipment-free MAPS program and Almost breakthrough product of all MAP maps prime. This is the only program I know of an existence that actually has a self-assessment tool called the compass that you go through and helps identify How you should prime your body for your workouts regardless of what your workout is or whatever competition you're doing We've got people who prime their bodies before the runs or their baseball games or football games. I actually had somebody send me a message. They prime their body before a business meeting and they find that they're much more effective

of what they do. Of course, we know the whole brain body connection. So in Roland, either one of those bundles and you get access to our forum for free. And by the way, next month, the price of the forum goes up anyway. But once you're in your end for life, you can find out all of this and more about our programs, more detailed information at mindpumpmedia.com. If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind, mind, pop with your hosts.

Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Dude, that conversation was lame. Woo, four hours! Four hours of inebriate. We did it! Fun! It's like a marathon. I don't want to drink alcohol for another year.

You know what? I hope you can't. I mean, I don't know. Can you hear us get progressively more and more? I think like the vibe was there, it started to get escalated. Yeah. You are excited to listen because I actually haven't listened to the whole thing. You know, so it's going to be an intro.

I know it was amazing going through it. So it was, well, it's funny because there was a lot of hype surrounding this interview because of some of the different positions that we have versus Lane. And both sides are very passionate and outspoken and not afraid to talk about our positions like Lane is one of those guys that if he disagrees with you, he has no problem saying it and he doesn't shy away from debate or discussion. Just one of the reasons why we like him so much. Well, I mean, the guy agreed to come on our show and talk to the three of us in our house.

So much respect to the guy. We respect him anyway because a lot of the positions we do agree upon and he does come across as having lots of integrity. So, and I think I do think a lot of people anticipated that we'd have like arguments and fireworks and fights, but there was a lot of mutual respect

with our interview. We found a lot of things that we found. We have a lot in common, and I think that the more we talk to them, the more of this, the differences might come out a bit more. Yeah, and there were some points where we had some disagreements, and we talked about them.

There was a lot of respect, a lot of good debate going back and forth in discussion. Lots of discussion on, I mean, I'll tell you what, if you listen to Lane Norton's podcast or you're subscribed to his YouTube, his podcast is a Physic Science Radio or his YouTube channel, you are going to see and hear, or excuse me, you're going to hear a very different Lane Norton on this upcoming episode. Well, he actually gets interviewed. You know, we we're interviewing him where most most of the time he's the one and we talked about I believe I brought this up with him while we were talking is that you know, I'm excited for his audience to actually get to hear this episode

because I'm a I'm a fan of the show. I found physique science radio. She had a couple of, a year and a half, two ago, and I've been listening, I've listened to almost every episode because I dig all the doctors and scientists and stuff that he has on the show. I love that, the nerdy stuff that he gets into. But you don't really get a chance to dive into Lane as much. Most of the time he's listening,

he's interviewing somebody else. So to hear him talk, most of the time was, it will probably be pretty awesome for most his fans. You get, you get kind of a better feel of the man, you know, who is laying north in the person, the, what's behind what drives him. He also goes into some of the crazy online struggles and that one guy, what's his name,

Blah-Haw or whatever, that whole feud that they had. He talks about that in detail and reveals some interesting information that you may not have heard of. So if you're into the controversy of all that, you get some dirt that you might not have heard before. Yeah, once we got him drunk, he started name dropping a bit too.

So yeah. It was, we had a great time. Oh, it was helps. We had a great time. And we think we would like to have him back on, or maybe have us be on his show, but to continue this conversation, because I think there's a lot of stuff that, even though we talked for four hours, we haven't even scratched the surface. We haven't scratched the surface, and there's a lot more that we can get into with the

guy. He talked about his Avatar Nutrition program, which is pretty awesome. You can find it at avatarnutrition.com. Of course, you can find them on Instagram, at Biolane, Dr. Lane Norton. So here we are, here's Mind Pump, talking with Dr. Lane Norton for four awesome hours. Enjoy.

Go get a snack. You started a podcast. What made you even get into that? I mean, you were doing it how long ago when you first dropped your first episode? Uh, because you did one before physique science, right? Yeah, I must have called it radio. And I think that started back in 2011, I want to say, 2012.

That's when podcasting was, man, that's way back then, because podcasting, a lot of people have, they don't realize it's really only recently become popular. Yeah. After smartphones kind of took off, right? Yeah, we were doing really well. We were on RX Muscle and we were pulling, I think, like 50,000 downloads or something like that.

Which back then is a lot. That's a lot. Were you guys monetizing it back then? Yeah, I mean, we were, well, we had sponsors. Oh, okay. We were the biggest bodybuilding podcast there was. Oh wow. We were, at least that's what I was told.

So what happened to it? Just didn't really ethical differences between. Oh look at this, we already got it. It's come good shit already. We just, we just started already. That sounds very general. Yeah, that sounds good. I thought we were going to start this thing

with an epic song. You know what? Let me say some bitch. We got the opportunity to watch Lane work out. Lane, he's very well known for Competing at a very high-level and powerlifting and he got to work out in our facility and there's one thing that I noticed about your workout that Was pretty awesome actually pretty amazing. I learned something today Mm-hmm, and I've been doing this for a long time been training out for God. I've been training professionally for 20 years But working out myself for even longer you play the most epic music I've ever heard

but working out myself for even longer, you play the most epic music I've ever heard of. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's like you're saving the universe. It's like, Oh, Hilo, metal.

Boom, boom, boom, boom. Oh my God. Yeah, it's like you're saving the earth. It is. Oh, universe. You're, you're, you're here. The universe, my bad.

It's like, I love it. It gets you strong. It, it's hard not to get fucking hyped to it. It does. So you stopped that other podcast and then when did you start the one that you... There's probably about a six to 12 month lag time and then we started physics science myself and Sohealy. And we do pretty well.

I think we're our downloads are like anywhere from like, like around 20, something like that. Okay, good. So we don't have a big website like our ex was supporting us. We just do all our own, put it up on some clown night tunes, but it does pretty well And you know, we have like great guests on there and You know, we've had Talkers of doctors. Yeah, all the top minds in my opinion and nutrition

I mean, we've even have like doctors to Phillips on there who's like a god of protein metabolism You know like he's he's basically surpassed well now, now that Lehman, my old advisor, has retired, this guy's carrying the torch. He's a beast for research. So, and one of the cool things is, I know most of these people, so I don't bring somebody on my podcast, and I feel like it's gonna be awkward, and you know, gonna not be able to, you know, there's plenty of people who are smarter,

who can't convey that. You know, they can't actually put it into practical work, of course, it's actually a lot of people like that. Yeah, and I don't like that. Like, I want somebody who can actually give our audience something, you know, and not just tell us about these molecular markers and whatnot. The other thing I like is I know there's a lot of young potential scientists who listen to the show, who are, you know, I always ask you, you know, how did you get into this? Because almost all of them have a somewhat of a support background.

I mean, they had some background in sport, physique competition, whatever it was, and they got interested in weightlifting from that, and the molecular mechanism is behind it. So we always try to talk about like, how did you get into it? And those sorts of things, because there were people who kind of did what I did in terms of competing and also doing a science degree But I was kind of the first person who really talked about it while I was going through it if that makes sense So I put it out there. I put it out on Social media. I put it out on the forums. I talked about you know my graduate You know not not the details of the research because you can't do that

but talked about kind of what I wanted to do what we found when we found it and You know the struggles I went through. And I think, you know, I don't want to sound too presumptuous, but there was a lot of people who went and did, uh, doctorates and masters after that who were involved in the competition scene. I think before that, it was kind of like, well, you're either a science geek or you're a meathead, right? You don't, you don't cross the two. There's no cross-pollination, you know? And now you see a lot of people doing it. So, and I think, you know, it's one of those things that sometimes all somebody needs to break

their perception is just one person to do it, right? I mean, they talk about, and I'm not trying to compare on scale on any stretch of the imagination, but Roger Bannister, the first guy who broke the four-minute mile. Before he broke it in the thirties, they thought it was physically impossible. They, you know, a lot of people thought it was just physically impossible to run a four- minute mile. Before he broke it in the 30s, they thought it was physically impossible. A lot of people thought it was just physically impossible to run a four minute mile. Once he did it, I think the next year there was like 20 people who did it. And since then there's been tens of thousands, including high school kids. So what was the difference? The only difference was, you know, our genetics didn't change and start believing we can

do it, right? Yeah, when they got on the track, they knew it had been done before. So, you know, and that's, I don't, again, we talked about this last night, I don't want to say, I don't want to take credit for some of the movements out there, but I was, I would say I was kind of very vocal about some of the stuff I was doing in terms of, you know, natural bodybuilding, people told me when I got into it, why are you wasting your time with this, you're not gonna be able to make a living as a drug free guy in fitness.

And I didn't worry about that, I just knew I was passionate about it. I figured, we'll figure it out. Let's chase the passion and we'll figure it out. And then going from bodybuilding to powerlifting, that's very popular now, flexible dieting, reverse dieting, you know, all these sorts of things, online coaching, you know, and so a lot of, and now like look at online coaching, when I first started, people were like,

there's no way you can do this online, you can't cancel somebody online, and now it's like, it is an entire industry, you know, it's crazy. Well, I would argue it's not necessarily a good thing, but well, that's what happens. It tends tends to do that right some of you have somebody started off with good intentions And then you know a bunch of people catch wind of it and find out there's a huge mark. It's money there Yeah, now yeah, everybody in their their sister Well, you also got social media exploding since then and the same time Yeah, and that's gonna fuel quite a bit of it. You see all that, a lot of these Instagram celebrities, quote unquote, and that's how they monetize

as they do online coaching and they look good, right? I did my first show here by my skinny T-Rap, you know? Exactly. I think that's the most common thing I saw going through all the circuits was meeting these quotes that's our popular again. Oh, God. I don't want to be fucking started on that. no, I want to that was one of the first

That was actually one of our first episodes we came after Talk about the dreams can I tell you guys a really funny story? Yeah, of course It's gonna probably offend a lot of people that's good one person in particular the right show to do So what I forget his last name, but Sadeek like I he won He won the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I don't know. I'm sure he's perfectly nice guy, you know But I put up a funny post, I said, if your guy wears a squeam, congratulations,

you have a girlfriend. And somebody tagged him on Twitter, and he was like, well, look at his waist and look at mine. Dude, you're born with a 28 inch waist. I have to shave two inches off my hips, you know, like, but okay, right? So yeah, the squeam is why your waist is that small, but anyways, and my friend, Diana Dalgren,

do you guys know Diana Dalgren? No, I don't know that is. Okay, so Diana, she was very successful in the competition circuit, and she was monster energy's main girl for a few years, and now she's married, has a kid, awesome, awesome girl, but a savage, right? She comes on, she tweets, response at him, she says,

I'm sorry, if I slept with a guy with a waist that's why I kicked my own ass. I was just like, oh, wrecked. Well, we noticed, I wanted things when I went through competing. I'm sorry, the thing about you and men's physique, but like, so you got a beard, you know, like I'm sorry, like ladies, do you really want to, but like, so you got a beard, you know, like, I'm sorry, like, ladies, do you really want to do it

that looks prettier than you? Like, I mean, well, that was the stuff that I, it was really tough for me was, I used it as a platform to get known. Like, I knew that, I didn't, I wasn't in some movie, it wasn't famous, I haven't wrote a book,

I didn't do anything that was gonna get all this attention. So I think, except for the movie we don't talk about. That's my other business. Google his name and look up images. Come on. Real reason why I got a studio. GeForP.

GeForP. That's a different type of book. So I saw all these men's physique pros and bodybuilding guys and bikini girls, getting all these contracts with companies, covers of magazines, giving out all this information. And I thought, oh my God, like, and then I got to meet them and I realized

how little most of them knew. And I thought, wow, there's a huge opportunity here. And then when I was going through it, I thought, man, the hardest part about this for me is now I'm getting lumped into this category of people. So when people meet me, they're like, oh, you're immense physique guy. I knew, I knew, men's bikini.

Oh, they wouldn't, well, they want to talk about that shit. I'm like, man, let me tell you the, I, the part that I hated the most was the part that these got the stage present part and the, I spent no time practicing. I'm so lucky that I made it to the level I did. And I purely did it off of my conditioning and symmetry because I was the worst on the state, worst ever at, I never practiced because I just, I couldn't take myself seriously in my fucking home, you know, practicing turns and putting my hand on my hip

and I'm like, just, just, just, feel right. I see the video. You know, like, I just spent a few days out with Steve Cook. He's a client of mine, I've known him for years. He's a good guy, really good guy, he is. And you know what's funny is, you know, you can argue he's the most successful man's physique competitor in history just and based on his following

Mm-hmm. Do you got 1.4 million followers on Instagram? I don't care what show you one. He's bigger than that's way more Pulling away more powerful way more powerful. So But we were talking about you know, he was like yeah, he's like I don't dig the whole like he doesn't you know There's guys out there like to like moving their hands and stuff and shuffling, and they're trying to make it, it's like, dude, it's a side pose. What do you, like, what are you trying to turn it into, you know, like a break dance or what? Yeah, you know, I don't mind.

I don't mind. They're blaming their waist. Yeah. It's magic. I don't mind a lot of that stuff. What bothers me is when they start to do the, and it's never been healthy, but when they go the route of like a squeam,

like a squeam, does it shrink your waist? Yeah, because it atrophies the muscles around your waist. You're not even building muscle anymore, at least when you take animal. And that's the other thing too, is that making your hair on how much? And you're potentially causing yourself some function issues. If you're somebody who wears a squeam, like you, like, because some of these fucking girls wear it, like they, like you would put a five squeams and like, yeah. Like, and they wear it non-stop. And then, of course, you're just like a cast-it. And that's where I explain to people. If you put a cast on your forearm for fucking six months

and then cut off, what does it look like? That's exactly all you've done, right? So I actually had a client, won't say her name. She was worth a big team who will show her mains the name less of, Bob's show! Oh! Sorry. Sorry. I didn't catch it. big team who will show remains nameless a Bob's girl. Oh, sorry.

Bless you. I didn't catch it. So she wore a queen, two squelms, and like 24 hours a day, like slept in it. And she actually got organ prolapse from it. So that's where your bladder basically sits on top of the tube. Don't Google prolapse, by the way.

You don't want to look that up. So she had to have a surgery done for it. And I'm just thinking, how have these motherfuckers not been basically said don't Google girl. By the way, you don't look that up. So like she had to have a surgery done for it. And I'm just thinking how these fuckers not been sued for this kind of stuff. You know, like it's just crazy to me. Like I am so petrified of, you know, somebody like deciding, oh, let's just, you know, people are so so happy these days. You know, I'm so I'm like, how is some of these bad? Then I feel like, well, maybe it's not going to happen because look at all these idiots out here Who given terrible advice who have legitimately fucked people up?

I mean I had a 16 year old girl come to me whose coach who this is a big name coach had her on clean Buterole on and T3 her thyroid completely shut down She'll need a 16 year old. She'll need thyroid hormone for the rest of her life and it's like you Piece of shit and that's the other thing too that drives me nuts is, these guys get a reputation for like knowing about nutrition. They would not know nutrition research if it came up and smacked them in the face. Like they know about drugs, right?

Like, oh. And even drugs. And even then it's, let me tell you. It's very, that was the part. Here, more, more. That was the part that blew me away was I thought at least that part I was going to see like okay at least most these guys especially for the professional level would get that down and I'm like when I started hearing the stacks of steroids that like the

men's physique is more I was like more what are you doing taking gram and a half a shit what do you what you don't need that much for what you're trying to do it's men's physique you know and then it's like the bikini comparison on drugs and they have them lift like no weights and it's like here's a novel fucking idea why don't we not put them on steroids not turn them into a male jawline and have them just lift some fucking weights squat and deadlift right stop with the rubber band I mean I got the rubber band kickbacks I mean, I've got a client Arya Demi who she was with a big team and we kind of had to rehab her metabolism and whatnot Now she's killing it. She's placed top five at like all of her pro shows You know, she's she's got she's making points for the Olympian whatnot

She's she does squat bench press deadlift, you know, now obviously like we're not I'm not trying to make her a power lifter Right, like it has to be specific for what she wants to do Bench press deadlift. Now obviously, I'm not trying to make her a power lifter. It has to be specific for what she wants to do. So obviously more glute work. There's more overhead pressing work compared to a bench press. Yeah, but don't you notice, okay, being someone who coaches trains also on top

of being the scientist guy, don't you notice that that's one of the easiest ways to help these girls. It's so easy for me to take someone else that's been coached by one of these knuckleheads. All I gotta do is introduce the deadlift and squat and like, and they just bodies morph and change. No drugs, no supplements, nothing else. Like literally let's stop with all these bullshit

glued exercises that someone fucking told you or awesome or your favorite YouTube star's got and let's do some fucking good compound movements and watch how your body changes. Well, I'm just programming too. I have so many girls that come in and guys too and I'm not getting sore. I'm not getting sore. If you're getting sore all the time, your programming is shit.

That's right. I'm glad you said that. If you're never getting sore, you're probably also doing it wrong, but it should be sporadic. It should be something sporadic. And let me tell you something, soreness is not associated with growth, okay? If you want to get sore, go out and run a marathon. I promise you, you will be sore the next day.

Do you think you grew muscle? Well, we could argue, we could actually argue with the bait test that soreness is closer to a sign of overtraining than it is under training. There's, the idea is to do as little as possible to elicit the most amount of change. For most people, when they get started on these competitions or even just get on their journey

to get in shape, they get so much of this like intensity driven marketing, which that's one of the things that we speak so much about is like, man, if you guys only knew like all this work that you're, it doesn't have to be this daunting, but I feel like there's this, people want to be a martyr. Yeah, they want to be a martyr. It's like, it's like who suffered the most to get ready for a show? It's like, look at me, I did my self.

I did my self. I did my self. I did my self. I did my self. I did my self. I did my self. Oh, I was dying. Six months.

Yeah, it's like a competition now on who could put themselves through the most shit. Yeah, listen, I'm all for sacrificing for a goal. Okay, what I'm not for is suffering for the sake of suffering so you can brag about having suffered the most. You know, why not just like put a chastity bell on yourself and then whip yourself because then you suffer even more, you know, like. Well, sometimes that feels good, but.

Yeah. Totally. We're doing the chastity, though. suffered even more. You know, like, well, sometimes that feels good, but totally. Yeah, we're talking a lot about some of the issues with the competing world, but obviously you got into it. You competed in yourself. What initially attracted you to or brought you to working out? I mean, you know, why'd you start lifting weights in the first place? Last night, you had made a comment about growing up as a kid and, you know, how you got bullied and you're probably a smart kid. And I know when we were kids, anytime you read a book, it wasn't cool. It's a little more cool now, but when we were kids, it wasn't really.

Is that what motivated you initially? Did you start lifting weights? Because you're like, hey, I want to feel stronger, feel better about myself. Yeah, I was totally shallow and not heroic at all. I wanted to get attention from girls and and Stop getting bullied neither of which happened by the way But you know, it did teach me a lot, you know, it taught me goal setting. It taught me perseverance It taught me hard work, you know like I really I learned a lot from lifting weights And I always work, you know, like I really I learned a lot from lifting weights and I always tell people, you know It the lessons that weightlifting teaches you if all you get from that is a good physique you fucking failed

You know because if you can't take that and apply that to other areas of your life Man, you missed the entire point, you know like my friend Paul here to quote that I really liked he said um My entire life I was gripping a barbell and it turns out it was the other way around Mm-hmm, you know, that's a great quote and and that's you know Like I've gotten to the point now you know people We discussed this like I've gone through a several injuries neck injuries hip injury back injuries So I want to just quit like it's your's fighting, like, stop, it's over. I'm like, well, first off, that's because you're a pussy.

And you would quit. Okay. I'm nothing like you. If I, if I, It's a great way to start a sentence. I just tell him, I just tell him his way. Hey man. You're a pussy.

Here's a tampon. Let me finish it. You want to feel better about the, you would like to feel better about the fact that in the same situation that you would quit. So, but I love to train, you know, I was putting this earth for a few things. Dropscience and train heavy. That's what I that's what I feel like my purpose was, you know, and yeah, and I want to find a way within that realm to change the world. Like that's my big goal is to convey so much information that I can literally change

the world. And that's kind of got. When was that first one was your first major injury? Because you talked about your neck, your pack, your hip, which one happened exactly? So just like that. First injury I ever really incurred was a 20 years old I was playing rugby in college and now I have the one rule which is I can only do one thing per unit time that can cost me bodily harm, right?

Smart strategy. Back then it was like rugby and weightlifting, you know. So what positions do you play? I was a flanker. Nice. So basically like linebacker equivalent. Yeah, yeah, yeah And I really enjoyed playing rugby. I mean for those of you've done it You know, it's like a whole different community, you know like it's not it's not just a game

It's the drinking afterwards. Yeah, the running around naked, you know like the whole the whole deal shooting the big Thank God they didn't have iPhones back when I was going to school. There might be images or videos of Dr. Lane Norton streaking through the college campus. But yeah, I was in a game and I was my sophomore year and I went to tackle a guy and didn't get my head far enough to the side. His elbow nailed me right on top of the head. And it caused me to lose like, I had a stinger, which is a bulging disc that presses on a nerve.

And I lost like 40% of my strength on my left side. I couldn't even like, like that chair over there, I wouldn't even be able to pick it up. You know, and I went, so it was amazing how incompetent some of the doctors were. And I'm not trying to hate on doctors, like there's really good doctors out there. But the first orthopedic I went to is like oh you have shoulder strain you have a shoulder strain

And I'm like read I'm like are you sure because it sounds like a stinger based on what I'm reading online He's like no shoulder strain and then he we didn't MRI He's like it looks like you have arthritis in your neck and I'm just like This is a bulging disc. I'm pretty sure like based on what I'm read. I so I finally took it to a This is a bulging disk, I'm pretty sure, like based on what I'm read. So I finally took it to a Neuro-surgeon in my hometown, because I went to school, and I'm from Indiana, I went to school in Florida. And he was like, no, it's a bulging disk. He's like, your neck does have some arthritic changes just from, you know, rugby's tough.

Like, I don't have the natural curvature in my neck anymore. Like, it's just, and I'll catch myself, like, I'll be like this just by the fall. Get the forward head thing going on. Yes, yeah, it's really bad. So I have to, you know, kind of put myself in that position. So yeah, I lost quite a bit of strength and the surgeon, you know, he said he's like,

listen, you may never get back your full strength. And I mean, that was like a dagger to the heart, you know. And, but I just, you know, I went to, actually my first bodybuilding coach, Dr. Joe Klumsetski, he was also at a PhD in physical therapy. He's like five PhDs and shit So I went to him and he put me through some he showed me some rehab exercises this you know and in six months I was back in PRs again, you know, and it kind of gave me that Initial confidence that's like you can get injured and you can still come back from you can fix it like you know

Yeah, there's like, you know, if you lose your leg, you're not, you know, you can get a prosthetic or whatever, but you know, but the, most, the human body's pretty amazing and it's recovery ability. Yeah. And that's why like, you know, I told my pet when I was 26 years old.

Now, how did you tell your, because you hurt your neck, obviously, acutely, right? You hit someone, someone boom was your pack tear were you lifting a like super heavy amount of weight or was it just a routine okay yes so again you pushed it I was just starting to get into power lifting and I was doing a reverse band bench press so you know bands hang down from the rack and they were actually slightly behind me and so when I started to press the bar moved on me up and kind of and I was doing stupid bodybuilding style with my arms flared out you know and you know just I felt like you know like if you pull a saran wrap and it finally gives way that's

what it felt like. You can you can feel it. Oh I felt I knew exactly what I did as soon as it happened you know it didn't have the auditory pop like some guys described but I so I got up well we went to the ER my wife me my wife We were engaged at the time and We get the R and you they're messing with me and everything and it's like oh, I think you strained it And I'm like I'm thinking I'm not but it was so swollen Oh, you had ever you had the diswaling and discoloration or just swallowing no discoloration whatsoever

No, like I woke up the next day and it wasn't wasn't no everybody who tears the pecs that you know there's Discaleration yeah, so when I got up and I saw no discoloration I was thinking oh shit Maybe I just did strain it, you know and in two weeks went by the swelling started to go down And I could you know there was definitely a deformity there. Oh, you know, I absolutely so I Went in got in my eye all kind of stuff and it showed that there was a it was torn at the muscle tendon junction. And I went into see a guy named Dr. Michael Corcoran in KKK Illinois and thank goodness I got referred to this guy in particular. He was awesome. And he said, listen, you know, surgery, this can be tricky. This is like trying to sew hamburger back together, you know, this is very difficult because you're, you're, he's like, it says muscle tendon junction,

but you're mostly in the muscle, you know, and that normally would show like that, they just leave it alone. Yeah, normally they don't mess with it. Well, that can be harder because with at least with a tendon, you can staple it to the bone and it comes back stronger. Very high success rate. Very high success rate with that kind of tear.

Like bicep tears are almost almost almost always popped at the tendon bicep tears sucks, but they have a Extremely high success rate. It's over 90% without surgeries. He told me this was 50 50. Oh, you know, he's like this He's like we could do it and you know, you could sneeze and we can now let's go in through your mind when that He's telling you some shit. I mean, obviously I was pretty gutted. Yeah, you know, and how old are you at that time? 26 I mean, I mean, I was pretty gutted, you know, and how old are you at that time? It was 26. It was about nine years ago. Yeah, it would have been, it would have been,

actually, right around this time actually, I think it was like March 14th or something. No, no, no, like literally right around this time, it was in February. Oh man, I'm trying to. It's like the anniversary. Holy shit, it was mid, it was that day. It man I'm trying to. He's like the anniversary. Holy shit. It was a day. It was a day. It was a hamburger. It was a hamburger. It was a day. It was a mid-February. I remember that because when I went to the Arnold I hadn't had surgery on

it yet. I think it was right around like March. No it was late February. So it might have been today. Who knows? So I decided to go through with the surgery for it, because I thought, you know what, if it doesn't work, then I've got to do rehab, which I'm going to have to do anyway, right now, right? I might as well give it a shot, you know, like worst it can happen, as it doesn't work, and I'm no better off than I am, I'm no worse off than I am now, right? And at least I know I tried, you know. And it was successful. It was successful. And you know, I went in and I was telling you guys a story like I came out of anesthesia and my wife's there and the nurse is there and the nurse looks at me

and I just like almost like grab drive. I'm like, how did it go? You know, which come to find out, I could form the words in my mind. I remember clearly what I was thinking, but when I came out, I was like, you did! Because of the morphine, you know? I got it. You did.

I don't know. That's good stuff. So, you know, and she was, I just remember hearing it went really well, and I didn't hear anything after that. I just remember thinking my mind. It's on. I'll be back, motherfucker. Now, fast forward the next major I guess hiccup would be your hip

Next major was or something else. I mean, I kind of battled through some back injuries in 2015 so okay, so I won USAPL nationals in 2014 and qualified for the Arnold and qualified for the world's team. What were your numbers when you did that? So at Nationals, I hit a 650 squat, a 391 bench, and a 683 deadlift. Oh, shit. So, that's easy. That's easy.

So then and my training for the Arnold was going really well. I mean, I was crushing weights. I hit 600 for five on squat. I hit 6.35 for eight on deadlift. Like I was crushing shit. And I was on pace to squat like 6.77, 6.83, something like that. The world record at the time was 6.81. Now explain that. Do you or 6.61?

Because I have a lot of respect for how you program, I watch how you get ready for these competitions and the way you progressively overload. Can you kind of tell when you're going into a comp, like the weights that you're hitting two, three weeks out, like, oh, I'm coming. You know what I mean? Just the way it feels.

You can tell. Just the way it feels. I was like 5.65 for five, so it was just a joke. Like it felt easy. You know, and usually like 5.65 for 5. It was just a joke. Like it felt easy. You know, and usually like, usually that will, even though it's well under my 5 rep max, it will still feel like. Like a grind still, right?

I mean, I'm a relatively slow squatter if you've ever seen me squat. You're a grinder. That, yeah, oh, I've had reps that were like eight seconds consensual. Wow. I mean, wow. I don't give a, so thanks for going really well for the Arnold.

Just absolutely crushing weights. I was thinking I might even total up in the high 1700s or, you know, low 1800s. Wow. And one week out, I was doing conservative maxing on squats. Basically, you go in, you hit a single at a weight, you know, you can do. And I was conservative maxing on squats basically go in you hit a single at a weight you know you can do and I was conservative maxing like 6.30 6.40 on squats like I was just smoking them. Wow. And I got done with my squats, we went over to do bench and I could tell my lower back was a little bit tight and I just thought well that's weird like I didn't feel anything when I was squatting

so I benched and then I went and dead lifteded so this was you were handling the way no problem It wasn't like you were No, it was fine. It was fine. Um And you know, I was I was tight went to go deadlift and was kind of think well Maybe I shouldn't deadlift. I'm like, you know what I'm weak out. I need to get this workout in Case again, where the default to push too hard was the wrong move But you know what I might have already I might have had the same thing happen anyway, who knows, anyway, so I did 6-10 for like sets of four on dead lifts and it was like my last hard workout before the Arnold and I woke up the next morning, couldn't even hardly get up at the couch.

Oh, and it's like a week out from the end. It hits you afterwards. Yeah, yeah, and I was like, oh fuck, you know, and I'm like, I'm a week out, I'm like, I'm like, I'm gonna week out. I'm like I'm not gonna be able to compete. You know, and so I really I rested, you know, Did a bunch of, you know, mobility stuff and massage therapy and who knows what actually worked or not But I said, you know, the meat was on Friday Friday at the Arnold and I think I went on on Tuesday And I was like I'm gonna go on on Tuesday, I'm gonna try and hit my opener.

So if I can't hit my opener, so I'm gonna pull out. Went in and they felt, okay, and I was just like, all right, I guess we're gonna give it a go, you know? And like I said, my goal was to break the squat record because you can, in the IPF, it's not like these other fucking backyard

powerlifting federations. If you wanna set a world record, you have to do it a world level meet with world judges. You cannot do it at a local or a national meet. It has to be a world meet. And so the Arnold was a world level meet. And it's in my backyard worlds, that year was gonna be in Finland

and everybody told me like, listen, if you're gonna go off to the squat record, go off to the Arnold, because there's no world title on the line. At worlds, it's a team game. Like you're wanting to win the overall team gold medal. And so the coaches are going to usually pick pretty conservatively for you because they don't want you to finish the list. Right, of course, they want you to get the highest total, right? I don't care about what your PRs are. I mean, they do it a little

bit, but they don't care as much about as the team, right? So, we got on there, you know, literally the morning of, I'm like, okay, I feel pretty good. And we had a staff who, so my second squat was like 6.39, felt good. I looked at Bennett since it's Kilo jumps. I looked at my set 66, which was the next jump up from, 2.5 Kilo jump up from 661, which was the current world record. Ben must have done the back calculation. I don't know if he just got excited, whatever.

And I'm not hitting on Ben, because Ben, I wouldn't have squatted nearly what I did. I wouldn't have done it much, that's the idea for one for Ben. He wouldn't have put it in six sixty one, which ties the record. And when you tie it, the original guy keeps it. Of course.

And he comes back, he's like, okay, we're going 661 and I looked at him like you mean 66 right? He's like no, and I'm like the record 661 I just saw like the color drain out of his face like he immediately knew and once you set a third squad attempt You can't change it. Oh shit. No, I don't know that I don't know He changed your third deadlift, but you can't change your third squad. Oh shit. No, I don't know that. I didn't know that. You change your third deadlift, but you can't change your third squad. Oh shit. I wonder why. So I was like really like mentally, it was like I had to get myself, like I had to pull a gut check, you know what I mean? Because it was like this is what I'd done all this stuff for. Of course you want to, you're at that point too. That's your height.

But I kind of, I kind of, I like, I find ways to refocus myself. I'm like, all right, most people will go out here and miss this lift just because they're pissed off because it's not a war. I'm like, show me that it still means something for me and go out and fucking win this thing. You know what I mean? So I went out and I hit that 300 kilo squat, 661. And when I actually, unfortunately, that's where I messed my backup worse because I got kind of sideways on it. And it was a grind, but I would have had 662,

because you can take a half kilo jump for a world record. Maybe it was a blessing, you know what I mean? So, so I think that's where I actually had my first disc in my back was on that lift, because I woke up the next day and like, it was actually really weird, it was like, because I ever had a herniated disc between L2L3,

which is really high up for a squatter. It's usually L4L5, is where you herniate this. And, hold on, where did you hernia? L2 L3. So, I got kind of sideways on my squat coming up. And the next morning, I felt like right around the L2 L3 area, like quite a bit of pain. And so, then, worlds was about 14 or 15 weeks after that.

And I kind of struggled on and off. Like, I had to stop squatting for like three weeks, somewhere in there. And I remember four weeks out and this time I've always tried to do is like be real with people. Like most people talk about the struggle and talk about the grind, but they don't actually show you it while they're going through it.

They talk about after they've accomplished something, right? And I'm like, that's the safe way to go. That's such bullshit, right? I remember the first time I posted a video that were like I failed and I couldn't get the weight like everybody went bananas like oh my god I've never seen anybody do some shit like yeah, everybody post their best exactly what I did yeah You post I like to show people like yes some days I come in I think I'm gonna be able to do this and it don't work out So this is what it looks like so after three weeks and not squatting like obviously squatting feel real great

You know and I was just trying to get back in the groove Well, I was presenting in Denmark. This is one month out from worlds. I'm presenting in Denmark fly over there I slept fine the flight over but unfortunately I woke up at like one p.m. Denmark time And I had needed to go to bed like 10 p.m. Because I had to be up at like 5 a.m. I Didn't sleep that entire night, you know And then I got up and gave a speech for eight hours on my feet, and then I went and had to squat. Oh my God. So I had, um, I was supposed to do five sixty five for doubles, and I was going okay, like the felt okay.

And then by the last set, I just, I ran out of gas. I was supposed to do an amrap, and I filled in the first rep. And I had video of it. Now I went back and ended up getting a double. Like I didn't do any extra amrap or whatever it was, fucking grind. And I really debated about like, cause I called Ben, I'm like, dude, it's not gonna happen. Like this is a hundred pounds less

than I'm supposed to squat at worlds and I fucking failed it. You know what I mean? I'm like, this thing just ain't gonna happen. He's like, listen, just, you flew over, you had a bad day, you had a bad workout, just, we don't need to make that decision now, you had a bad day, you had a bad workout, we don't need to make that decision now. You know, and he was real supportive,

Isabel was real supportive, you know, they got my back, they got me refocused. I was like, all right, we don't have to make the decision now. Right, so let's just worry about the next workout. Just kind of refocused myself. But I posted that video up when it happened, because I'm like, here's where I'm at. You know, I knew my competition would see it. I knew all these people would see it. And I'm like, you know what, though, I get fucking sick and tired of these people talking

about the grind, talking about failure. And I don't even think... What it looks like. I bet you got a lot of love for that, though. I did. I did love it. I think I really appreciated that. Of course, because when people see somebody that they think is super human, you know, actually become human, you get, actually become human. You get a lot of respect. That's why I show these, like me squat in 135 pounds and get excited about.

That's what I made that comment. Because seeing it, what it allows someone like me too is to respect your programming, because I can see what you're doing. I watch you. I know that you can squat 600 pounds, but then you show you putting the work in it to 75. You know, like, nobody shows, no one's showing,

because it's not impressive, but it's like, yeah, when I do these posts and I got 135 pounds in my back, but I'm working on my mobility and I'm working on things like that, connectivity in my body, and I think like, you know, I don't get a lot of views on it because it's not cool, it's not a PR, it's not nothing impressive, you know, it's like, yeah, but people need to understand the,

I would argue with you, I would argue with builds your brand even better It's just not gonna be as exciting right off the bat. Right and and I Squats didn't start feeling good before worlds until a week out, you know I remember saw a week out from worlds Ben said I'm gonna come to the gym with you because he was living in Tampa at the time. He's like let's work up to a conservative max I had no idea what it was gonna be so my my first attempt. I did 605 and he's like, okay, let's go to 640. Oh shit, that's pretty heavy weight for a gym lift, you know, because on competition day,

I mean, one of the best, one of the best compliments I ever got was from Matt Gary and Mike Zordos. And they were like, these guys are really involved in US people. And like, like you have a lot of mental edge on a lot of guys because they know if you're showing up on Meet Day, they're not gonna get B plus lane Norton. They're gonna get A plus lane Norton and you're gonna come out and hit your left and they're gonna have to deal with it.

And so 640 took it for a second attempt and hit it. And I remember standing up and being like Game on motherfuckers, you know, so went to worlds In Finland got there and I'm warming up and usually like I'm it's funny because I'm like four inches taller than everybody else in my weight class You know like I got the longest legs the skinniest legs everybody in my weight class I'm thinking man if I was a hustler I'd be like going, going around taking a bet to, hey, hey, I'm a squat more than anybody here, you know what I mean? So, you know, worlds they give metals for the overall and they give metals for individual lifts.

So I knew I had a good chance to, to gold metal and squat. And first attempt, 606 felt great. Second attempt, 634 felt good. So for our final attempt, for the world record at the time, 661, and you can chip it, which is 662, right? And I go back and I look and Ben's put up 668. And I'm like, dude, you realize if I missed this,

not a damn. If I missed this, I won't even get a bronze medal for the squat. And he looks at me and he goes, you're If I miss this, I won't even get a bronze medal for the squat. He looks at me and he goes, you're not gonna miss this today. And Ben is the kind of guy. He will, I know he will not put away in the bar, I can't do. So I was just like, all right, let's do it.

Went out, squatted it, it was best feeling ever. I talk about the adrenaline going into that, bro. I was, I was, I actually remember my fishin' buddy, Will Grasio and he's another coach, great guy, good actually remember my fish and buddy will grow his own. He's, he's another coach, great guy, good friend of mine. And we were going out one day to fish and I, you know, I'd been deal with back injuries and everything. This is like six weeks out from worlds. And I'm tell, we're talking about everything and he just, he said something to me that really stuck me

goes, man, you come this far, finish the mission. So I'm like, run, I'm like, walk with the bar, my finish the mission, you know, like, I yelled goofy shit of myself, you know, because I'm just fired up. But yeah, you want to talk about like, it's, it's cool because it worlds, it's very, I want to say sanitize process. So there's actually a tunnel where you're, when you're, when the person in front of you's lifting, you're sitting back in this tunnel and you got your coach back there and there's a, there's a handler. Okay, so this handler is gonna tell you when the bar is loaded when he says bars loaded the clock starts You got 60 seconds, okay?

And within 60 seconds you have to get the squat command So I always as soon as I get bars loaded. I'm going because you don't you know if you get out there and it's miss loaded or you know You want to give all your time and I just remember thinking when he says bars loaded That's gonna be like my gun going off at the starting line. That's my release, like I'm just gonna fucking run out there like a savage. You know what I mean?

And I got my music playing. You know, and I told Ben I'm like, when as soon as he says that, my headphones off, put the ammonia in front of me and smack me as hard as you can, you know. Hit me, you know? And yeah, it was like being shot out of a cannon, you know? And it was awesome.

I was the last squat in my group and hit it. I just remember actually I came out and I always looked for something to look at when I'm squatting, just to focus my attention. I come out, I look straight and pull invisible right there. And I'm just looking at it. And I can hear a pull, like as I'm coming, I was like,

yeah, yeah, you got that shit, you got that. And like, turn around and waiting for those lights, being like the longest second and a half of my life and getting three white lights and fucking, it was awesome. You know, it's been broken since then, but man, to do it at that kind of meet at that, like, the IOC, the Olympic committee was there at the meat because they're considering powerlifting for you know the Olympics. It's provisionally in the world

yes it's crazy and I still remember 12 weeks out from the meat Matt Gary who's the head of the US coaching committee he sent me an email and he's like breaking down everybody in my weight class and you know this is their strengths and this is their weaknesses and this is their best lift and this and that and at the end he said to me he's like, Lane, you got the opportunity to metal but you've got to be perfect. If you miss a lift, you're out. If you miss a lift, you're out and then it's a train like your life depends on, I was like, oh shit, don't tell me that. Don't tell me that. No, I love pressure. I love pressure.

Well, you're a driving it. You're a very intense individual. I mean, you've been talking you last night. Well, even talking you last night, you're pretty calm, dude. You seem to revel in those types of challenges where people say to you, well, you embrace it.

Yeah, you do say it. It looks like you embrace it and excites you. Let me ask you this question, because I can guarantee you some people listening right now or thinking I'm good. Yeah, I know they're thinking themselves right now. Do you think that that attitude contributed maybe to type to training types of training that may have pushed you to injuries? Oh sure Now let me ask you this. Have you changed anything or looking back? Have you changed your approach?

Because you're also very analytical, obviously. Right. What has changed since then? What do you think you could have done differently maybe? So the first thing I'll tell people is, because people will say, well, I look, you got injured this and that. I'll say, show me one high level athlete in any sport who has not incurred some kind of major injury.

Tiger Woods plays golf. He's fucked up. You know what I mean? So I'm not saying there aren. Tiger Woods plays golf. He's fucked up. You know what I mean? So I'm not saying there aren't things I could do better. Absolutely. But if you're gonna compete on that, if you don't ever get injured, lifting weights, you're probably lifting like a pussy.

Well, you gotta see. Your priorities are different. And I tell you, it's easy. Whenever you last. When your priorities are to another pound, another pound, and you're trying to set records or you're pushing yourself from it. You're always gonna walk that borderline.

Of course, because your goal isn't to be the most mobile person in the world right now. And if that was your goal, you probably wouldn't be setting PRs and people just gotta understand that that it's where your priorities are. But I think the idea for us as we continue to go through is learning from that and then trying to meld the two of them together I think that's where sales going right is like, you know, looking back, you know, how have you grown from that and like what are things that you've implemented?

Yeah, because you're not done competing you still want to you still want to be in that world. So your your approach has changed. Right. So I've put a lot more emphasis on mobility, rehab work, core work, planking, all those sorts of things to try to glute work. Now these are areas that you're, because you spoke very highly of your physical therapist, these are areas that your physical therapist has identified. And so your core, you said core, has, I noticed you, and like most power lifters and heavy lifters do, you use the belt quite a bit when you lift left have you done lifting without it or do you experiment without it? I do my a lot of you know, I do some beltless work and it's you know, there's there's theories behind

If you use a belt you tend to get more core activation of the rectus abdominis, like the actual front of your abs, right? You get less of the the obliques inside of your abs. If you do beltless work, you tend to get more uniform activation. So that's why we've been putting in a lot of side-planking exercises and that sort of thing. But for me, when you start to get heavy, I tend to be there on the side of specificity. If I, you know, because squatting without a belt,

it's just squatting is different than squatting with a belt. So it is. And here's a thing to consider. If I, you know, because squatting without a belt is just squatting and is different than squatting with a belt. So it is. And here's a thing to consider too, is when you're, it's not, because I've heard people argue and say, oh, you get lots of core activation when you wear a belt, which is true if you look at a, if you're looking at activation of muscles,

that's absolutely correct. But the difference is in recruitment patterning and how the muscles are recruited. And with a belt, your core pushes out against the bell and the bell creates more stability. Because you'll notice when you're, you know, when you're doing a heavy lift, you breathe in deep, your push out, that bell gives you that artificial extra stability. It's a total different process. Right.

So then when you take off the bell and you go to do a heavy lift, your core now is trained because this is what happens to your body. Whatever you do all the time becomes your default recruitment pattern. It wants to push out, but there's nothing there to support it and you can create problems. And so you'll see now, I've worked with lifters where I'll have them do both because it's important

that your core can do both because if you emphasize just one all the time, which look, here's the bottom line. When you're competing in powerlifting, you use a belt in competition. So it's important you get good with it. And in fact, if you give a beginner lifter a belt who's never used one before, they don't even know how to use one right. Their body doesn't know how to use one properly.

But it's really about that recruitment pattern that makes the biggest difference in that type of stability. And one of the things I've tried to do now is when I breathe and I have all solva, I try to think about filling up my entire belt and not just of stability. One of the things I've tried to do now is when I breathe and I've all solvah, I try to think about filling up my entire belt and not just the front. Sure, right? And my physical therapist's always yelling at me, ribs down, ribs down, you know,

and not just being here, but being here at tight, you know, tighten the core. And yeah, you know, hopefully it's gonna make the difference. I mean, well, I think if you weren't competing, you probably, do you think if you weren't competing that you wouldn't train with it as much, or do you think you still would? What do you think you would do?

Like if let's say you've already, you're over competing, you're training now, is it still something that you find yourself using a lot? Or I'd probably train with it less, but I'd probably still train with it. You know, cause it's a hard transition, I'll tell you, I'll tell tell you I was a big belt. Well, I go back and forth.

I go, I go all the way up until you went for a while without it. Yeah, no, I did. It's a weird transition. I play in and out because I'm not competing, right? Well, and I have such, you know, I have, you know, I have more forward lean than most people and you know, people looking me who knows you're doing it wrong You're doing it wrong, and I try to explain by mechanics to them. It's like I'm speaking a third language

But it's one of those things where I I have such an amount of forward lean it really does take a lot of my squat if I don't use a belt sure And I can admit that that's fine because everybody uses a belt and powerlifting. So it's, you know, it's all level playing field to fucking sport. Well, that's what I like about you. You're not afraid to say that. Do you know that you're...

There's a lot of ego in there. But it's still a skill. Of course. I still have to get it out of that. And you're competing with one just like the next guy. I'm not gonna sit here and be like, oh yeah, the knees give me nothing in the belt, gives me nothing at all. If I did, you've gave me nothing, I wouldn't fucking use them. You know next guy. I'm not gonna sit here and be like, oh yeah, the knee sleeves give me nothing and the belt gives me nothing. It's all, if it didn't, you've gave me nothing,

I wouldn't fucking use them. I'm sorry, stop. These guys like, oh, the knee sleeves don't do anything. They just, the mental thing, shut up. The knee sleeves probably, SBDs, strong knee sleeves, iron tanks ones that I've got, they'll probably give somebody anywhere from 10 to 30 pounds as my guess. Hey, every percent counts when you're completing.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as it's standardized. I mean, I competed raw in a raw division that had wraps, right? Knee wraps. I actually prefer sleeves because I don't really get that much out of knee wraps because I'm not a, I'm not a upright Olympic style. You're a lot of the hoax out of the whole squat. Yeah. You're a lot more hip action than you are in the selection.

Exactly. So I just don't, I don't squat fast enough in order to get a lot of the rebound out of the whole squad. You're a lot more hip-faction than you are in the flexion. Exactly. So I just don't squat fast enough in order to get a lot of the rebound out of that. So, but yeah. What a cool topic at a good point. Yeah, I got it. Because of your stance and because of how much, because I actually squat, we're similar to you.

I have very tall, lanky guys. So I tend to lean forward more than the average person. I prefer a lower bar than I do a high bar squat. So, you know, there's definitely advantages and disadvantages to both. That's a great little topic. Well, people, people, look at me like, why don't you just high bar squat? Because you can stay more upright. If theoretically, yes.

But the problem is, I still have to lean forward even with a high bar squat. And what happens when I get heavy, I just completely fold over because the torque is so great on my lower back. You've only linkedened the lever. If you've got this upper body lever and your body likes to fold forward, and if you move the weight up, you've only made your head here.

That's stupid. Yeah, that's dumb. I mean, unless you're really good at the troll who's coming through and trying to say some stupid things. Unless you're really good at sitting as super erect with your squad. I mean, I guess you could say I could get, I could make a really wide stance and do high bar and push my knees forward really

far, but now I'm creating other problems. You know what I mean? You're tearing your balls out of your balls. Yeah, exactly. You know, there's a thing that happens. So, you know, I'm instead of, you know, I actually hurt my back more when I was trying to fight what my body naturally wanted to do. You know, now listen, yeah, I hurt my back,

but okay, how long have I been lifting weights? Almost 20 years, I've had one major lower back injury. I don't think I've had more incidence of lower back injury than any normal person who lifts weights. No, and the hard thing too, especially when you've been working out as long as you have or we have, we've all been training that long as well, is that you create these patterns

for so long and you get so strong with these patterns that eventually something, sometimes, this is not for everybody, but sometimes a weakest link in the, you know, there's always a weakless link, right? And it sometimes you'll pay the price and then to revert, to go back and to regress and to have to figure that out, it can be a very long process. Like people don't realize, like, you know, when I stopped lifting with a belt, I mean, you know, my top deadlift, nowhere near yours, but I've pulled 600 pounds off the floor.

When I took my belt off, I had to go way back, and it took me a year before even getting anywhere near what my old deadlift was, because I had to relearn how to deadlift. It's like a new exercise. And that's just one silly example. I mean, if you look at your, you know, the complexity of a squat or a deadlift or even a bench press,

and you get an injury and all of it, you know, you examine what's causing that injury. Why did that particular part of my muscle tear, you know, why did my, why didn't I not control the movement at that part of the rep? You got to go back and you have to relearn the exercise. People don't realize that shit can take a long time. You're only using that on your big compound movements, too.

You're not like a, you know, cable push down guy with you. You don't, you don't worry about when you do curls. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no, no. I don't, I don't want to be funny. It's not a fast thing.

I don't want to be funny. It's not a fast thing. I don't want to be funny. It's not a fast thing. I don't want to be funny. It's not a fast thing. It's not a fast thing.'s not a fast. It's a little fucking, you know, Vallejo belt with a little thin thing in front. Where, you know, with it says, I have BB Pro on the back, you know, like a beast on the back. Yeah, we actually have this guy that worked out one of our jams and he wore a belt that said beast on the back.

Fucking hate people talking to me. He'd walk in, he'd walk in, we get on the intercom and we just go beast. He's a lot of them. So, so powerlifting, the thing about powerlifting is it is a I mean I I'm gonna say pure sport and some people are gonna are gonna debate that because of course you have all the the different you know rules and regulations but what I mean by pure is you

either lift the weight or you don't right uh but you also compete in body building which is not sure this is a completely good great question yeah compare the. Like how different is that? Yeah, I mean, I like both for different reasons. You know, I would say that in a way, bodybuilding is a little bit more rewarding and that it's just more of a constant grind in that, you know, you never, you know,

after my training session's done for powerlifting, I can kind of stop thinking about powerlifting. You know, I go home, eat some food, hang out with my family, whatever. Or as a bodybuilding, it's like you never, when you're prepping for a show, you get, everybody gets prepped brain at some point. Even if you do it right, even if you give yourself enough time, even if you do flexible dieting, whatever, at some point, it basically dominates your life. It does happen. It's a very selfish, obsessive sport.

It is. And any sport is, but it's just one of those things that, you know, I think I have like PTSD from competing and that, like, not to minimize PTSD. I'm making a joke, but like six months after I'm done competing, if you said the word diet to me, I didn't like that. So I liked it in that, you know, if it's hard, that's what makes it worth doing. You feel proud of yourself afterwards, but I didn't like what I don't like is the way that it tends to just completely take over

my entire life because you just become so fixated on food. You know, it just, it sucks. What I loved about parallel thing was going into the arena on contest day, that's what it felt like. It feels like a competition. I have all these nerves on competition day, right? And bodybuilding, what the fuck am I gonna do

with them? Pose harder? Or as parallel to it, I can use that shit, you know, that's why I love, like you're talking about pressure. I love pressure and I love nerves. Like one of the best lines I ever saw. Did you guys ever watch the ultimate fighter? Come on now.

Okay, I think it was season five from for Sarah versus Hughes. Okay. Do you guys remember that? Here's the go, right? Do you guys remember the guy War Machine? Yep. Okay.

So he's in jail now, right? Yes, I do actually one of my He killed I didn't he beat his porn star girlfriend. Yeah, what am I one of my good friends? Actually childhood friends with him Oh, wow. Yeah, he was his girlfriend's name Kristie Mac. Oh She's not a delete delete delete. She's not a bad one to watch, but yeah, he beat the shit of her But there's there is a great line. This is so this guy who's John Copenhavers Well, he's known of the time and

He's just like sitting over a bucket before his fight like physically getting sick You know like because he's so nervous and he sit there and he Matt Sarah's his coach, he's still going, I hate this. I can't do this anymore. I can't. I hate feeling like this. I hate feeling like this. And Sarah looks at him as the greatest line I think I've ever heard. He says, what are you talking about? That's the feeling of being alive. You care about something so much. It's causing you to feel physically ill. He's like, most people never get that. They don't care about anything that much. That's the man in the arena, right?

Man in the, my favorite, one of my favorite quotes of all time. What are your thoughts on what we're finding out about the brain and the stomach being connected together? What do you think about all that? That's crazy to me. We've always said things in the past, like you've heard people say,

oh, I feel it in my gut, you know, and now we're starting to see that there's a major connection going on. God, they just, it was it like two years ago, they just discovered the, God, with a lymphatic system connects directly to the brain. Everything connects.

Which is hilarious because if you went and added me books before that, it ended, you know, and up at the neck, I think. Look at adipose tissue. We used to think adipose tissue was just literally like a sponge, like a storage unit. And now we know it sends out adipocines, it talks to other tissues,

it fits every definition of an organ. So to scale them also, by the way. You know, we usually just think these were kind of inert things that was like, deliver and the gut, the heart were driving everything and the brain, you know, and they were driving everything. They all talk to each other. The peripheral tissues, all talk to each,

you know, the peripheral tissues talk to each other, you know, adipose tissue, very, very communicative to other tissues, you know, adipose tissue, very, very communicative to other tissues, you know, especially like, look at things like leptin and adipinectin. They're finding now kids, young girls now are going through puberty at younger ages, just because they're fatter. People realize that the extra adipose tissue is pushing them into puberty at earlier ages. Well, leptin interacts with hypothalamus, and the hypothalamus is really involved with

sex hormones and then those sorts of things. So I'm not saying there's a direct connect connection, but there is that kind of interlude between the two. It's very interesting. And I wasn't that long ago where I found out, and I don't know how long they knew this for, but majority of serotonin produced in your body is produced in by the bacteria in your gut. There's a tremendous amount of serotonin produced by the bacteria that is in your gut,

which is crazy because obviously we've known forever, intuitively, you fall in love, you get nervous, you get depressed, where do you feel it? You feel in your stomach. You know what I mean? You feel it all in your stomach. And the funny thing is, had you said this to a doctor as scientist 10 years ago,

they would have laughed at you. They would have said you were absolutely crazy. And now we're discovering that that's, I mean, there's, I think the serotonin receptor density in the gut is second only to the brain. Yeah. So I mean, and definitely like, it's, we know so little about the gut,

you know, there's more species of bacteria in the gut. I believe I could be wrong, but I believe that the statistic is there's more species of bacteria in your gut than there are animal species on the entire planet. You are actually more bacteria cells walking around right now than you are human cells. That's the fact. And there's debate as to what the ratio is. Some people say three to one, some people say 10 to one. But you literally are more bacteria than humans. Yeah, it's pretty well.

It's pretty, pretty fucking perfect. We know that it makes a difference, but we don't, you know, people say, well, should I take a probiotic, should I take this thing? Things we don't know really how it affects it or if it makes it better or worse. I've seen people who take probiotic anecdotally and they actually get worse GI issues. Yeah, what you need to consider is the overgrowth of bacteria. Regardless of what the bacteria is, can be a problem. And so what people will do with probiotics is they'll take them.

Well, it's like everything. Why do we always have to go to the extreme? We learn a little bit of science like, hey, this might help a little bit. Then everyone's got to go, but take this as much as I possibly can to see the health. We got what you like. We did our homework. We took care of our boy. We got am still light up. We got his monster drinks after you're done

You can have a little bit of the vape off the volcano You said you've never had marijuana in your entire life never mind. I you know marijuana fights You know that can't have an ointment fight cancer. I I haven't actually looked into it But yes, there's some anti cancer properties. Right, actually looked into it, but yes, I have. There's some anti-cancer properties. Right, right. So it'll go good with your monster. So high.

Boom. That was beautiful. That was beautiful, right? That was beautiful, right, man. Oh, my goodness. Yes, per team monster. No, I mean- Don't worry, cannabis takes care of you.

I'm a libertarian, so I think the people should be able to you know smoke weed Do whatever they we connected very strongly. That's why we all we like each other soon as that came out We're like okay, how can we not like each other? We like people being able to do what I fuck they want What do you think of the of the current state of? the bodybuilding fitness world In the last ten years has changed so much because of social media how much time you got I know the bodybuilding fitness world. In the last 10 years, it's changed so much

because of social media. How much time you got? I know. We got all day, bro. That's not a sudden opening question. We got all day. No, I'm gonna tell you something, because the reason why I even know who you are,

I stopped. I was really into bodybuilding as a kid, lifting weights, and I completely just disconnected from it. But I knew who you were because you were like somebody that kind of was being smart about it. You were talking about science and why. One of the first things I think I heard you say was how you don't need to eat the insane amounts of protein

that some of these bodybuilders were talking about. You know, the two grams per pound of bodied. Stupid. And I remember reading that and then you, you know, obviously you backed it up with science and studies. And then I did my own research and I was like, holy fuck, this guy's right. And he's pretty muscular and he works out.

And he's pretty strong. I think I'm gonna listen to this guy. And he's hot. Yeah. I think he is nervous. I have a poster of you among my men. So, but you know, listening to all that, or you know, seeing all that,

like you must be, I'm gonna drive you crazy, because it's, I don't know, man, it feels like it's going backwards in some ways. Well, you know, we do have, you know, an evidence-based movement, which is nice. You know, back when I was first starting on this, there was no evidence-based movement, you know, it was just who the, one of the bro and the gym said

who was big dude, you know. Yeah, it's just, I think, Neil deGrasse Tyson said this, and I really think it sums up nicely. And it's, the fundamental job of any scientist is to question even the most basic beliefs that we hold true, right? So not just accept something,

because guess what, like people, when I bring up something they say well This is the way it's always you know what? Thousand years ago people were like yeah the world's fucking flat because it is because we said so and by the way the earth is the center of the universe You know and it took so we all know what's Adam And it took it took you know Galileo and Literally standing in front of I think the church and then making him make him and house arrested Making him recant his findings and then I think I think the story is like he he recanted to save his life

Literally because they were gonna kill him because you know heaven forbid we advance And he under his breath said and still it turns we advance and he undersbred said and still it turns. Well, you know, it's, I hate to say this. This is so cliche, right? But history repeats itself. The, the, especially that earth movement right now. Yes, there is.

Oh, wait, wait, wait. What the fuck? Wait, wait, wait, wait. So there's the flat earth movement posted this, literally posted this. Okay, and this is just so real. Are they real or do they? Yeah, it's real. I've seen it I've got the great this is the greatest line in the history of the internet fucking internet remembers it's the flat earth society posted and

if you don't get this within 10 seconds of me saying it go back to school the flat earth society has members all around the globe. Oh my God. Oh my God. Drop fucking mic. Oh my God. It's like, I don't even need to say anything. Why isn't the moon flat? Holy shit.

Holy shit. It's a flat disc. You know, what I was saying about history repeating itself is the holders of information, people don't realize how much power is in information. Information truly is power. For all of human history, if you look at the people who had the information and conveyed it, they were the ones in power.

It was the church, and then it was aristocrats and government and media. And now that we have the internet and the ability to share information, I mean, in the past, look, I tell you what, we're recording a podcast right now. We do YouTube videos. We, 15 years ago, that didn't exist. If I wanted to spread my message, I would need, I have a million dollars worth of production

equipment. I would need somebody to sign me. I need a major, you know, production to be able to do this. I have to be on a major network. Now I can make a YouTube video and it might reach 20 million people. And it scares the shit out of the holders of information. And I ask you this because you are a scientist. Who are the holders of information now and who's getting scared now?

That's a loaded question. It's a very loaded question. Because we talked yesterday, and you don't have to go into detail. Obviously, we talked off the mic yesterday, but you've seen some unethical shit happen in the field of science. And these are the holders of information today.

Yes, you know. How much of that would you say, you know, in your experience, okay? I know this is, you know. I gotta pee really bad, I'll be right back. In your experience, how much like percentage wise do you think is, is fucking bad and corrupt? You know, I probably had a better experience than most people because I went to the University of Illinois, IL, and I, which is a really high-the-regarded research institute, and I worked under a great advisor, not good, not okay, fucking great. Dr. Don Laman, I didn't realize

how great he was until I had left and had some time out my own and seen what some other people went through. I didn't really see any of it there. It was very rigorous. Like, we had so many, so much oversight. So it was like he taught you the right way and then you went out in the real world and saw how it went down. You know, there was a statistic out there that something like 30 to 40% of, are not fabricated, but the data is doctored within some way. How about we just say that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 100% of research is biased, 100%.

Well, everybody has their bias. I have my own bias. We have to get funding. Yeah. Well, not even that, like we all have our our own thoughts like I have my own thoughts about stuff. Fair enough But what I always say is I I care more about getting the right answer than I do about being right, okay? Like I love to be right don't give me wrong. Do you really feel like that though? Do you think there's been a time where like? Because that hurts pro and we talk about this on the show about being that type of person where You're okay with being told fuck

I was wrong and I gotta come out and say happen my first study I ever did really I used to eat eight meals a day You know and I got the study back and I was looking at the data and I'm like Fuck I can't validate this. Oh good for you. I So I tried start need four to five meals a day and it worked it was better like it was a little bit better You know in terms of in terms of it fit my lifestyle better I didn't feel like I needed to leave the house with a fucking cooler, you know, and Seemed to get a little bit leaner, but still retain the same amount of muscle mass and yeah like I just It seemed to work a little bit better. Did you come out and talk about this ever? Oh, yeah

You just missed a really good one. So you talk about even we talked about. He was all right. mentioned in you know about wanting to do research for the greater good and being okay with being wrong. You know, and I said, you know, that's a really tough thing to do is admit when you're wrong and we talk a lot about that on the show where, you know, there's not enough fitness people that come forward. Just like you guys will do with a half mile. Oh, actually, actually, I know that's the main event. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, actually what you don't know it raises the bar for it. We're fueled by it. We're actually trying to have sex with it. That's a performance enhancer.

Yeah, we're trying to loosen you up so we can get late. Yeah. The reason what? Yeah. Whoa. He says he's a for sure thing already. Oh, never shit. The reason why I asked you that question was because you were one of the first people to

introduce the concept of metabolic damage and reverse dieting. And we had a great conversation about this yesterday because it still is yet to be a recognized phenomena or term and we know what adaptive thermogenesis is. But they don't they only give a they give a little bit of credit to it right they'll say it's what 10% or 15% of the number. But you've seen firsthand, well, we all have, because we've all been doing this for fucking 10 plus year, 15 plus year.

Yeah, like how do you deal with that? Because you're on both sides of that, right? Like you're also the scientist who, you know, you wanna see the evidence, but you're also on the other side of it saying, wait a minute, I'm seeing some shit going on right now, that is just, doesn't make any fucking sense, you know. You were telling us about some of the competitors you've trained where they, you know, they, they come see you and they're eating a thousand

calories a day, doing two hours of cardio every single day. And it doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense, you know? I mean, what do you do with it? How do you deal with that? Well, I thought it was interesting that when I talked about reverse dieting, minimal account temptation, I never tried to oversell it. It was never. This is the magic solution to all your problems. It was- You were careful, of course. This is what I've observed.

Here's some science that seems to, you know, seems to anacellar and anacellarity. God, that's the wrong word. I don't even think that's a word. Yeah. It's okay, I make him up. You know why you're- You just gotta say it faster. You're sitting in Adam's chair. It's what. It's the wrong word. I don't even think that's a word. Yeah. It's okay I make him up. You know why you're, you just kind of say it faster. You're sitting in Adam's chair. It's what.

It's a big joke on this show is I talk so fast to just make a word of it. I'm searching for, but anyway, if you say confidently, it doesn't matter. There was, there was data kind of surrounding it, but no direct data, right? So I talked about that. And you know, I, I try to never oversell it.

I said, this is a tool that I think some people can use. And if you want to use it great, if not, whatever. And it's weird. I'm like, here I am. I've worked with, I've been doing coaching for 12 years now. I've worked with over 1,500 people. Did a Ph.D. in nutritional science. You know, I feel like if anybody has right to take some a little bit of a lead way and

make maybe a little bit of a leap, it would be me, you know, but people came out and you know, PubMed is great. I love PubMed. It's great. Fantastic resource. Information can be, you can find it. But we have these PubMed warriors. If the if you can't give them a PubMed study for it, it must not exist. Right? Yeah. And it's like, you know what? Guess what? When Isaac Newton saw the apple fall from the tree, there wasn't a

fucking PubMed study to back it up. You know what I mean? You're 100% right? Cause observation in anecdote of many times is what drives inspiration. It's what drives the science. And I'll tell you what, when I was a kid, when I had a cough, my mom would give me honey, because honey helped the cough. Now, the way my mom explained it was, it coats your throat and it helps prevent eukoffing. Of course, I grew up a little older.

I'm a teenager, go to the doctor, I tell the doctor about, the doctor laughs at me. That's ridiculous, honey doesn't do that. That's an old wives tale. We now know that there's something in honey that actually suppresses some of the, something in the brain that actually causes the cough reflex. So it actually does help with coughing.

But they laughed at it before. And here's what bothers me about that. And this is why I think you have different theories and philosophies that have merit and many times they don't blend together. Because there's some truth in a little bit of everything a lot of times. And the problem with this is people get dogmatic.

And the scientific community can also become quite dogmatic and they're not infallible. And you were talking about this yesterday, we were talking about some of the shit that you've seen with studies where you're like, that is not, that is not a study that is can be trusted, but yeah, it'll get published.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, we do have, fortunately, science is usually pretty good in that other researchers are gonna see that study get published and go, what the fuck? And you gotta see if it's duplicatable. Exactly. And one of the proudest moments of my entire PhD research was seeing it get you know mine was done in rats which of course all the fucking bodybuilders I was in rats it doesn't

matter unless you show up. That's what motherfuckers can't do it on the street. There's a reason we do it in rats you know what because humans suck as test subject and in particular? Cause humans suck as test subject. And in particular, bodybuilders suck as test subject. Let me tell you what drugs and why did you do it knife, BB pros? And why did you do it? Cause we don't know what's working with it. I will tell you exactly why we don't do it in bodybuilders. Cause bodybuilders aren't idiots as a whole.

And assholes and impossible to work with as research subjects. And let me tell you why. They already think they know more than the fucking researchers. Okay. If we're going to do a study on high protein versus low protein and we tell you you're in the low protein or we you're going to know you're in low protein group if you're bodybuilding even if we don't tell you even if you're blinded. You can't really're blinded. You can't really be blinded. They're gonna drop out of the fucking study.

I'm not in low protein. They're not gonna, so, you know what, rats are gonna do what the fuck I tell them to do, okay? So, now, obviously, we would love to have it validated in humans. Absolutely, rats are a good model for protein metabolism. Well, one of the proudest moments was seeing a lot of my research get validated by Stu Phillips Phillips lab. They kind of did similar research in humans and found

very similar things. That is the beauty of science. Is it if you can't reproduce it, then it wasn't legit. Here's a thing. I met you yesterday. I've only known you for a couple days, but the impression I get is that you have unshakeable ethics. You seem to be very morally driven, which for me personally, that's the kind of scientist that I want, looking at things, because we've seen far too many situations where we find out that the research was flawed

because this company funded it this way and these things were changed or You know they cut the study short so instead of going nine months It went six months because at seven months. That's when they saw side effects that I made it only six months I we see what the tobacco industry did what the the the petroleum industry did with lead when we were trying to get lead out of gasoline You know all these different things that happen. happen, it sucks because it muddies up. What is supposed to be a very sure black and white objective, you know, science. But in the end, science got it right.

You know what I mean? Because the research on tobacco came out and all this other stuff eventually. Eventually. The truth. But man, let me tell you. No, it sucks that it didn't happen faster, but the truth is a freight train. The truth. But man, let me tell you. No, it sucks that it didn't happen faster, but the truth is a freight train.

The truth is a freight train. Okay, the truth is freight train, parallel to 100 miles an hour down a track. You can try it, slow it down, you can try and stop it, you can try and divert it, but it's fucking coming. And if you're somebody who did your shit unethically, it will come out eventually. Well, I'll tell you what,

if you're better off just doing it the right way from the start. I'll tell you what, if you're better off just doing it the right way from the start. I'll tell you what though, if I debated a scientist 20 years ago on whether or not we'll talk about marijuana since that's the subject we like to talk about, whether or not marijuana cause lung cancer, I, for sure, for sure you wouldn't find a single scientist that would have debated that it didn't.

Because- For liability reasons. Well, not just that, but if you look at the carcinogens that are produced or that are in the smoke, it's got more carcinogens than tobacco smoke. But for all intents and purposes, it should cause cancer. But it didn't. The study show it doesn't cause it. And we know it's because cannabinoids have anti-cancer properties, so it's some kind of a cancelling out process.

But to even entertain the idea- It's kind of protein- Bone loss, that way. Right, right. It would have been almost impossible. of a canceling out process, but to even entertain the idea, it would have been almost impossible. And so we talked for a second, I joked around about the monster drink that you're drinking, about the Aspertain. And I know I saw you did a recent post on artificial sweeteners and you defended their safety.

And you're also libertarians. And libertarians we are as a whole, that's a big arm there. Yeah, that is a big arm. As a whole, we are quite... Oh, shit. We don't, we're untrusting of, you know, monolithic monopoly type entities like government

would be one of those, or even the intertwining of government and business. And which is fucking everything. And here's the thing, here's the thing that I wanna tell you about Aspertame. Here's the problem I have with Aspertame, in particular. When you look at this thing, in particular. Yeah, no, when you look at Aspertame

and you look at how Aspertame got approved, and these are all factors, historical facts. When you look at the process that it went through, when GD Surrell, just makes you raise a eyebrow. Well, I'll give you a little synopsis. Look this up if you want to. I'm not going to have the exact dates, but when GD Sural first tried to get approval from the FDA, the FDA asked for studies and GD Sural provided them.

They gave them 100 studies that they funded. They did them themselves and they gave it to them. The FDA came back and said we want more and they gave them more. There was an investigation into these studies and they found that, and they gave it to them. The FDA came back and said we want more and they gave them more. There was an investigation into these studies and they found that, and there were two scientists in particular, I don't remember the names of the scientists. One was a neurobiologist who was the gentleman who was responsible for removing MSGs from baby food. He was the guy that said, hey, MSGs may not be good for, you know, for baby food, let's take that out. So he would look at Aspartame, he said,

let's look a little deeper. Examined the studies, found a lot of problems were done with the studies, and the FDA actually did a criminal investigation into Aspartame, and it did not get approved. They actually had a criminal investigation. This is true now, the Attorney General at the time got paid, the GD Surveil took the Attorney the attorney general hired him so he quit his job as attorney

attorney general worked for them. Case got dropped still wasn't approved. Who gets elected to who or at least who gets appointed to the committee that now is going to look at aspartame again or at least who's in control who's in control of GD Stirl at the time. Rumsfield of course are favorite, you know, politician responsible for going into Iraq of G.D. Surle at the time? Rumsfield, of course, are favorite politician, responsible for going into Iraq with Mr. Bush. Anyhow, he was in charge of this. He declared, we will get it passed. This is a true story now.

They had a committee of five scientists looking over the science behind Aspartane. Three out of the two said no. He appointed a third, or a sixth, excuse me. Now it was a three to three tie The the scientist in charge of it was appointed by runsfield then may broke the tie and got aspartame approved Moving along up until 1992 aspartame was responsible for something like 80 almost 80% of the complaints to the FDA for all food additives like a majority of complaints go in the FDA

But that is very easy to explain as a confirmation bias that people believe as per Tame is bad for the men so they complain but go ahead it could be but here's the thing now and you're a smart guy And I say the same thing that could be a confirmation basis by excuse me however after 1992 the FDA stopped They started looking at the complaints like hey, I had a seizure and they stopped saying was it asked formation basis by excuse me. However, after 1992, the FDA stopped, they started looking at the complaints, like, hey, I had a seizure, and they stopped saying, was it Asperteram, or we're not gonna blame it on Asperam,

we're just gonna say you had a seizure. In fact, you can't find statistics now for complaints after 1992. And so for me, when I look at this cloud of bullshit, I go, hold on, this doesn't look fucking right now. And this is the problem. They could very well be right. Aspectame could be completely safe. But this is the shit that makes me shake my head.

Right. Well, and you can think, not to get too libertarian, but you can think government for, for crony capitalism for fucking that up. Absolutely. Um, and what I'll say is all that sweat. We're also goddamn skeptical, right skeptical, right? All that may be very true. It probably is true. But when you look at the research, and even the research that's outside of funding from Neutrus wheat and Aspertaim and those sorts of things, now let me ask you this,

when you look at all the research done on Aspertaim, what percentage would you say is funded by the industry? Not in a bunch. Oh, it's probably over 70%. Okay, so good majority. Oh, it's probably over 70%. Okay, so good majority. Oh, good majority. And I want to make that clear to the audience.

Now, I'm not saying that that necessarily means it's bullshit, but it's something you should consider. If this was a court of law, this is something that they would make a point about. They would say, hey, there may be a conflict of interest. We'd also call it a circumstantial evidence. Correct. But the other thing, too, is to keep this in mind. I was funded by the Dairy Council and the Agnieszcension Center.

I never once had one of them come into my lab. I never once heard from any of them. I'd send a report to them every six months. I realized every industry is different. But, you know, it's easy. You know, anybody can be made to seem like a villain if we put it together correctly. Of course. You know what I mean?

So we got to be careful. We got to be very careful. So what I default back to is when I look at the actual research and even the stuff that wasn't funded by NutriSuite, it seems to be safe. Now there are some studies that show chrysanogenic effects on enrats, but when you look at the dosages used, they're usually a very, very high dose. They are. They're actually the equivalent, so the equivalent drown. You'd have to use about, I think, so I looked it up actually, because I knew the subject would come up, I want to make

sure I had the numbers correct, because I don't want to misrepresent any position or side, and I have a very deep respect for science and the scientific process, and I respect you as well. deep respect for science and the scientific process and I respect you as well. And I looked it up and it's equivalent to 16 or 19 cans of soda every single day. It's, it's, it's, uh, would, would you would need to consume on a regular basis? It, I, what I did the calculation, maybe there's another study I didn't see, but it was like 50 liters. Like you would actually die of electrolyte depletion before you would actually get side effects from the, from the outer switchers. Because people don't, the other thing to keep in mind is

people don't realize it's not like a one-to-one substitution of sugar. Asmode. No, I think it was at a thousand times. It's 200 times sweeter than sugar. I'm thinking sugar. You're literally getting milligrams. Yeah, a sucralose is 600 times sweeter than sugar. Now, the one thing about sucralose is it does seem to change your gut flora. Now, we don't know if that's a good or a bad or a neutral change, right? Like we just know it changes it so we don't know about that. Well, so there was a study on aspartame.

It was a 22 year long study. The longest study done on artificial sweeteners. And it connected aspartame to blood cancers in particular with women and some with men. Now here's what happens. And by the way, this is not the first time this has happened. And again, for me personally, when I'm ingesting something on a regular basis, when there's this cloud of doubt over it,

I kind of look at it and I got to make a decision based on this. Every time a study seems to come out to show that there's a connection between aspartame or glyphosate or some other chemical that we consume a lot of in our process foods, that shows that there's a connection to cancer, some kind of disease. Almost inevitably, six months or seven or eight months later, they have to retract their statement and there's all this conspiracy around.

Why did they have to retract their statement? Was there pressure from these massive organizations? And it's kind of, it's a little worrisome to me. Like I look at a single, what the fuck is going on here? Like it was a huge study that showed this connection between aspartame and blood cancers. And then they had to come back and say, well, it was a correlation, we're not quite sure.

And I'm like, well, there's another one. I know fuck with correlations. Be honest with you, there's so much conflicting, there's a lot of one. I don't fuck with correlations. Yeah, be honest with you. There's so much conflicting, there's so much confounding variables. You know what has an extremely tight correlation? Margarine cells and the door force rates of people in Maine. Yeah.

Like a 99% correlation. Oh, that's true. That's true. I'm looking at that. Where did you get that? Where did you get that? Who gave that to you? That's what I'm saying.

That's great. There is also a 97% correlation between incidents of drowning in pools and Nicholas Cage movies. Yeah, I believe there's an 87% correlation with the giants winning whenever it rains too. Really? No, there's, so now I'm not using that as proof of concept, but the point being is, I think correlations

are nice for trying to say, you know what, we should look more into that. But we got to be careful about how unfortunately what the paper reports is, for example, I mean, if you're looking at correlations, people eat meat are going to die. You know, they're more likely to die. Sure. You're going to die or something anyway. Sure. But yeah, you're going to look at the controls though.

Right. Right. So I mean, they said for a long time that coffee cost cancer too. Right, well, we didn't realize that people... But there's the thing, is people, people who drink coffee tend to be more addicted type personality. They tend to not exercise. They tend to be higher stress.

They tend to smoke. They tend to drink alcohol. There's all kinds of confounding variables. You know, and then, so when we talk about artificial sweeteners, I think it's pretty 100% accurate. It could be the person who goes and buys two big Macs and then gets a Diet Coke. It could be, but also what I want to say is,

it's not toxic, it's not an acute poison. No, definitely not. We do have maybe there is some evidence, some small evidence that there might be some carcinogenic properties at certain doses, but here's the problem But here's the problem. Here's the deal. This is the problem that I have is when you're a fitness enthusiast and you take protein

powder after your workout, pre-workout before your workout, maybe a post before bed supplement, when you eat a protein bar, when you're the average American, there you go, posing with your... There you go. ...when you're the average person who drinks too subtle today. When that happens over the course of 20 years, 20, 30 years, how do we account for, and you get cancer, and now you're 60,

and they're like, well, it could be this that, and it's a very difficult thing to do. You have to look at, when you talk about long term like that, not short term, do things accumulate in tissues. There are mechanisms to break down, aspartame, because at the end of the day it's just a chlorinated dipeptide. There are mechanisms to break those down. If you're talking about things like lead, mercury, things you just can't break down, that's something where even low doses over time can accumulate. So I don't again, I could be wrong

And I'll never tell somebody hey, hey, you should drink monster or you should do but Based on the data we have currently it does not seem to cause these problems now if you tell me you don't raise an eyebrow Or worry, I mean, yeah, I mean I was love it of all the things that we have out there right now I'm raising I'm so skeptical I raised an an eyebrow. Well, that's walking down the street that he's not gonna fucking rob me. You know what I mean? But at the end of the day, I kind of have to go, okay,

what we talk about, what is the order of importance, right? Or the hierarchy of what's important? Of course. You know, if you're, we've talked about earlier, I got in the big with this big fucking juice head. And again, if you wanna take steroids,

that's your, that's what, I don't wanna sound like I'm speaking negatively, that's your decision, that's fine, okay? But if you're on three grams of test a week and you're sitting there fretting over artificial sweeteners and chemicals, by the way, fucking everything's a chemical you dope, chemicals and food, and you're on three grams of test a week, you're a fucking idiot.

You've got your priorities. You've got your priorities mixed up. You know what I'm saying? No, that's a very, very're a fucking idiot. You've got your priorities. You've got your priorities mixed up. You know what I'm saying? No, that's a very, very, very valid point. You're talking about driving an army tank and I've got a BB gun and I'm gonna shoot the army tank with a BB gun. Now physics dictates because the BB hits it,

it's gonna slow it down some, but you're not gonna fucking notice it whenever I'm over here. That's not kill you, right? It is, okay, so literally it's the same thing as humans used to die from bacterial infection all the time. Humans used to die from, now we have antibiotics that kill the bacteria, but now we gotta look at the long game. You take a shit ton of bacteria, you create bacteria

that are resistant to it, you create gut, you know, microbiome issues, that's the long game, but the immediate game is this. Like, if I walk into the doctor and I have sepsis or I have an infection, I have strep throat, like, give me the antibiotic, like, that's right now. And I think what you're talking about is, you know, order of importance.

Like, are you, are you eating too much? Are you, you know, are you, are you, you know, moving right? Are you doing the right type of exercise? Do you have a good relationships with your friends and family? Are you getting up, sleep? And way down the list then we start to look at those other types of things.

But let me ask you this, okay? Because you're obviously in the business. Because here's my problem. Like some guys like, from the park one. Ah. Ah. You got to be out of bed. A little old or something.

Ah. Yeah. Like, bump shell. Coffee and trance. So. So. I feel like, like, bombshell, uh, coughing trash. So, so. I feel like you've gotten a lot of clients from that area. Yes. I really should thank thanks. That's gonna say.

We're talking shit, but I'm like, come on, I know you were like this, because I've gotten a lot of clients mine that way too. Totally, but it just makes you angry. Of course. Of course, of course. But, um, you know, don't get piercings, because the, cause the toxins, you know,

and all this shit, don't get tattoos and all this, and you're on a Tecgram, a test a week, bro, like, come on, you know what I mean? So, it just, I guess the, the fear mongering is what really upsets me about stuff that, but you know what? It's, it's easy to sell. It's, it's easy to sell because you said, oh, you're not, I had this guy had done a tour over in Australia. And I felt like my whole 2013 tour of Australia was unfucking everybody from everything that a certain individual had come through and said, and they said, did you say unfucking? I'm fucking, yes, because they were.

Australia was fucked. I went to the land down under and unfucked it, you know. So I, it's fucked. I went to the land down under and unfucked it. You know, so I... That sounds like a song. So... I understand. Someone land on the land. Sorry.

He's your guy right? He doesn't say much, but every once in a while he just drops the door. He's our one-liner, bro. That's it. You're picking up on that now. Oh yeah. Cheers to you, sir. Cheers to you.

But this girl, she was like, you know, um, I, I, they told me that the, the reason I wasn't losing fat off the back of my thighs was because my makeup wasn't organic. And I was just like, how did you go? Well, no one of you're so passionate about that shit, bro. I had to go. Five breaths. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, bro, do you know, do you know what I, you know what we saw the other day? Organic candy.

Or, no, no, no. Organic candy or organic Doritos. Oh, organic Doritos, yeah. I want to ask you about this because you are, do you see this eye twitch? Yeah. So it might be the, might be the aspartame. So,

ah, neural transmit Transmitters, what's happening? Neural time. Yeah, Excitodoxin. I, uh, so, I, I, I, I, I'll get down. Right. So you're considered somewhat of a leader in the fitness muscle building industry and a big, the main muscle building, excuse me, money maker in the muscle building history

supplements. How do you see in terms of the trend of that? Do you see it moving towards more organic, non artificially flavored, non artificially flavored colored type supplements, or you don't see that at all. Yeah. Yeah. People say they want certain things.

People don't know what the fuck they want until you show it to them. They really don't. Remember Pepsi came out with Pepsi clear? Yeah. Remember that was not no artificial thing. People hated it. Yeah, it tasted the exact fucking same.

People hated it. They wanted the caramel color and their cola, you know? That's like ketchup came out with what was like green and like a black color. I don't know, remember that. You don't remember that? They came with a green color and they were like, Oh, that is a terrible idea. Yeah, that did not.

That guy needs to get fired. Yeah, that did not. That guy needs to get fired. Yeah. Well, because what I see when I look at the industries, I see like, like, when I see, when I went to like a, like a safe way 10 years ago, they didn't have an organic section. You good at that. Don't go and Taliban territory. You know, my God.

Here we go. But now you see these big organic sections and safe way. You see, you know see organic Doritos, or it makes me think that the market's growing. It might be growing. It is. People talk about big GMO, there's fucking big organic.

Like, it's, well that's the sad part. We call it big Urba. Yeah, big Urba and big Farma. I mean, they both got the team. Yeah, like you said, organic Doritos. I love it when people, like, I'm eating payload, and they're eating these fucking brownies.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure they had fucking brownies back in the caveman days, asshole. I can't stand all the boxes that everybody, like you said, sheep. Everybody wants to be fit in a category, fit in a box, have a dogma. Because people feel like they need to belong to something. I don't want to belong to anything except the fucking truth.

Right. That's what you need to know. Listen, if I thought organic food would work better than regular food, I would be sitting here saying, eat organic. I would because at the end of the day, I'm a competitor, I want to do the best thing for me. You know, like I don't want to die early,

I don't want to perform some optimally. But if there's just no data for it. I'm not gonna sit there and bullshit people Well, let me ask what do you think about when the was it last year or two years ago where the the World Health Organization put glyphosate as And for the listeners glyphosate are the herbicides that GMO plants are designed to withstand right and that's why you blast the shitload of glyphosate on a McHill weeds. How did you feel about the World Health Organization labeling

glyphosate as a probable carcinogen? Well, I'll be honest, and this is gonna suck some of your listeners. I don't know enough about glyphosate to comment on it. However, I will comment generally. And that is, there's a lot of shit that's carcinogenic. Most things are carcinogenic if you get them high enough. What I'd have to know is, what kind of dosage ends up

is what you eat, right? Fair enough question. Because, and I don't know, right? Yeah, because I don't, I don't necessarily, remember, we're talking about fucking illuminati shit. Like, you want to talk about World Health Organization. Like, they're also the ones that said, don't eat protein. You know, that animal meat's gonna kill you

and all this kind of shit. And they completely fucking misinterpreted the results of those studies, you know. Yeah, I mean, it was just, like there was even a paper that came out and cell biology that drove my advisor nuts along with a lot of, did you guys, when they came out and said that, oh, protein is the same risk factor for-

SIGARETS. Long cancer is cigarettes, right? Yep. That was in a subsection of a subsection of data. Do you know what the overall result of that study was nobody reported that? Yeah, it was a, it was a- The overall.

The ridiculous percentage. The overall result of that study was that all cause mortality went down with higher protein intakes. Isn't that the real fucking story? Yeah. Okay. You know, if you might, my, my, my, I advise you used to say, if you torture the data enough, you can find what you want. What was the cancer risk increase with that? It was very small. So they listed it as an 18% relative risk increase in cancer. people go, oh my God, if I meet, that means I'm 18% more likely to get cancer, no, no,

what it means is if your absolute risk of cancer is 5.5%, it went to 6.5%. It was a 1% relative. And this is what we talk about a lot. Well, and here's the thing, like, if you take 6.5 minus 5.5, it's one. And divide that by 5.5. That's 18%. Yeah, that's true. And here's a thing a lot of people don't realize like science bitch a lot of that a lot of that a lot of that

And here's a speculation could be that Increased protein take you know boost IGF run production Don't lose them. You know, m tour people people who eat a lot of meat eat more calories And they tend to exercise less. Yeah, meat eat more calories and they tend to exercise less Yeah, but what do you they tend to eat less fruits and vegetables? That's that's there's so many confounding That's true, but what do you say to you know the studies that show that increases Activation you know M-Tore activation. Ah when you're in my fucking wheel. I know I am that's why I'm asking about to blow your mind Yeah, I'm so inside so I've read that M-TTor will also, or as has been associated with an increasing cancer.

And I wanted to ask you this, I know this is me. This is me rubbing my hands together. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, so let us, what's going on with that? So this is the problem. Some scientists don't even fucking understand science. All right, so there is a different level when you get angry by them.

Wow, you belong on my brain. I'm ready to. You belong on my brain. Lane in I think you need to cancel your broken are you listening? You need to be you need to be shots kicking in you need to be on mine pump more. No, I'm pretty much just angry all the time So so Here's the deal. There's a lot of scientists Who don't even understand science? There is a big difference between an acute truncated response And a long term response let me give you example, and I'm gonna set this up, and it'll make sense to you guys.

I'm going somewhere with this. Exercise, if you're an alien, I brought you down to earth, but you knew about what was healthy and what was not. But you didn't know about exercise, okay? And I told you, how make you do this thing that increases inflammation, blood pressure, heart rate, and reactive

oxygen species. He was like, oh hell no. That's right. We've actually made that exact use of an algae. We've actually made that exact use of an algae. But what is exercise? It's like a short, it's like a vaccine. Short term stress.

It gives you a short term stressor. Your bio-loans handle it better. Okay. So, when you look at what, so the reason we bring up Itore, is the way it was discovered was it's literally called the mammalian target of repamycin. Repamycin is an anti-cancer drug, okay? So repamycin inhibits imtore, okay? Imtore is the way that lucine, in particular,

stimulates muscle protein synthesis. This is what you wrote your thesis on, is it not? The lucine is already... That's why I wanted to ask him this question. So the problem, and if you look at inflammation, the problem with inflammation is not short-term increases in inflammation from like things like exercise. The problem is low level. The chronic inflammation.

The same thing applies to MTOR. And also tissue specific. Like a short-term, truncated increase in MTOR activity is not the same thing as a long-term, low-level, chronic elevation in MTOR activity. It is usually driven by increased insulin. That's usually driven by increased signaling from IRS one. LUCINE activates in toward downstream of IRS one. Big friggin' difference. And losing, actually, when we found this in our studies, one of the reasons we saw the refractory phenomenon

of protein synthesis, when inflammation is the same way, did you know that when inflammation starts in response to exercise, as soon as you start increasing inflammation, there's also factors that upregulate that are there to shut inflammation down. So to prevent it from getting run away, okay. The body is amazing in that so much shit is redundant. It's not people think about like, for example, fat loss, like you think about insulin, right? Like if you release insulin, it inhibits fat loss. So people think, oh, when you, in a release insulin, you would stop all fat burning everywhere.

No, fat burning and fat burning and fat storage are always going on simultaneously. It's the relative rate of each that's gonna determine whether or not you lose fat, gain, fat or maintain. Sure. At the end of the day, that's the problem. The same thing for muscle protein synthesis. When muscle protein synthesis goes up, muscle protein breakdown actually goes up too.

The absolute increase. But it's just that muscle protein synthesis is greater than muscle protein. Now, I want you to stop right there because that's a very, very important point that you just made because there's so many studies that will show supplement X increases protein synthesis by this much. But at the end of the day, they don't show that it built more muscle. Right. And they just show that increased protein synthesis.

And that was one of the big things of my thesis. We want to actually look at muscle mass and not just muscle protein synthesis because it's just a short term marker. But my point my point I'm going back to is that you know, yes, we should always be concerned about certain things. But if you let's we have to go back and look at okay, do high protein diets increase the rate of cancer in an actual intervention study? And the answer is no, it doesn't, right? So we can do all this stuff with IGF1 and MTOR, it doesn't fucking matter, right?

Just like muscle protein synthesis doesn't fucking matter if it doesn't actually increase muscle mass. That's right. And at the end of the day, now here's what I wanna ask you with that. So like, let me give you one more example. Okay, go. Fastocardial. If you do fastoc So like, let me give you one more example. Okay, go. Fast to cardio.

If you do fast to cardio, you burn a greater percentage of body fat from matter of folks to you. But you don't burn more absolute body fat. You don't lose more body fat than you do if you have fed cardio. The reason being that the thermogenic response is lower. Okay.

So we can look at this short term measure and say, oh, we get an increase in fan oxidation, right? But if it doesn't actually produce more body fat loss, who gives a flying fuck, okay? And that's why we, like when we did my experiments in for my graduate research, the last experiment was actually looking at body composition and muscle mass and these sorts of things, because we had to find, doesn't actually make a difference. I remember I went insane at

experiment, so experiment biology is like the the super bowl for nerds, right? It's like the Arnold classic for nerds, right? According to cell it happens multiple times a year. The super bowl? Yes, super bowl. So, what's the super bowl? So we, we, I gave a presentation and I remember I had like lines of people to debate me on this I feel like I defended myself pretty well

But we show differences in muscle mass with with isochloric, isitrogenous diets that were just different protein sources, right? And it was related to the it it was somewhat, it was quite closely related to the losing contents of those protein diets. Okay. The person after me gets up and they give us, and they give us study. And I'm not going to say where they're from or what their name was. And they said, you know, we gave loose scene after a fucking bike riding or something. We saw a looseine increases muscle protein synthesis. Big whoop, we know that. I really hate despise researchers who do safe research. Did they know we'll get that? Shoot, we already know. Shoot, we already, we've been fucking known. No, no, no, fire is hot.

Yeah, we already know. That's what I told you the day we call him. We'll be like, running will help you burn fat. Yeah, if we, if we, we like, we were not in did mobility work and gave Lucine afterward. Well, yeah, sure, it's, I, running will help you burn fat. Yeah, if we, if we, if we, we were not in did mobility work and gave loose scene afterward, well, yeah, sure, it's, I guess it's novel because nobody's done it before but we know loose scene increases muscle protein synthesis. So it gets up there and he's talking about loose scene after,

take, it's something loose scene after a, a endurance bike session. And he says, we know loose scene doesn't increase muscle mass and I want to stand up and say, why the fuck are you studying it? If all you want to show is that it increases muscle protein to that, we know that bro, we know it. You know, and it was just mind blowing to me

that people get so, and I get it because I did a BS in biochemistry, you know? So I get into that, I get like super geeked down over pathways and shit and like, well, this kinase and that that but at the end of the day If it doesn't actually produce a physiological difference who cares? That's true and this I want to ask you this because it's not every day I have someone like you sitting in that chair in in regards to have somebody like me

Well, bro. You better back up a little bit. Well the person with the large your ego matches ours You fit right in so regarding regarding mTOR, we do know that protein does seem to activate it, but does it increase cancer? That's a completely different story. However, you already have cancer. You already have cancer. There are some studies that show that reducing or limiting protein intake may make the cancer more sensitive to chemotherapy or may reduce its proliferation or its ability to grow, which is completely different. And I want to state that because people will bring

those studies up and say, when I have cancer, when these studies I show people have cancer, when they drop their protein intake, that the way they respond to chemo or their survivability goes up, which is very, very different. I don't know if you're familiar with some of those studies. So, I'm looking at a study right out of our lab.

A high protein, moderate carbohydrate diet, fed at the squeak meals reduces early progression of breast tumor genesis. Okay. So, this was a versus a high carb diet, okay? Now I think where a low protein diet, I don't say low protein, not high protein. Right. For example, ketogenic diet seems to be beneficial

for treating cancer. Yes, yes. So, intermittent fasting and... There's lots of it. Well, I think a fast, the application of fasting to start a ketogenic, like if, again, if I, like, if I found out I had cancer tomorrow, what I would do is I'd go on a 24 hour fast,

and then I would start a ketogenic diet. Okay. I think, by the way, all you fucking fitness people out there, doing what you think are ketogenic diets, that are like 300 grams of protein. That's not ketogenic. It's not fucking ketogenic. That's addictions.

Do you guys like how much I draw fat bombs on here? I love it. Have you ever listened to our show? I mean, I'm very passionate about what I do. Do you ever practice? By the way, did you know that... Protein is the magical fucking macaroni. So association, did you know that they've actually shown

that you're more likely to be intelligent if you Chris Moore. Get the fuck out of here. Fuck you man. Yeah. So, do you practice fasting by the way the fuck out of here. Fuck you man. Yeah. So, do you practice fasting by the way? Do you ever eat? I don't, I don't.

Really? No, I don't. Come on. How do you know? How do you know? Fuck around with that. You gotta, I mean that sounds like something. You gotta be interested in it.

Just try it. Oh, hey, I tell you what. A lot of bad shit happened by people starting with that If we don't get you to smoke weed before this day is it we're gonna get you to fast If you look at the data on fasting and and what people are trying to do with it Let's not go where would people are fucking turning it around into this way to burn. Hang on, you're the motherfuckers that brought it up. Well, yeah, but it doesn't intrigue you at all to play around with them at all.

Just looking at the science. Yeah, just looking at what is out there for the health benefits. It's very similar benefits from just a higher protein reduced carbohydrate diet. So what I would say is, is you could do lower calories. Even if you were somebody who was already on that type of a diet? Well, if you're calorically restricted and it's higher protein, you're going to get most

of those insulin-sensitizing benefits. I mean, we saw in our lab just putting people on a 30, 40, 30 diet in three weeks, they're blood markers. They were no longer metabolic syndrome. But see, here's the thing. Because we're in fitness, we tend to put everything in the sphere of burn fat, build muscle, you know, insulin hormone.

Checked fasting wasn't in a bottle. Well, that's stupid. And that's true. There's people going around right now, going around with a, trying to market, fuck no, there's ain't a bottle of faster. I was stupid. No, no, no, no.

The people that think that are stupid, that there's people right now that are marked. I've only had three beers, not four. Once I get to four, I'll be stupid. No, there's people that are marketing that right now. And that's what we don't like. That's why I was interested in if you've played around with it because I'm curious to some of the benefits

that it's shown in the uptaking growth hormone production, the neurogeneral. Yeah, there's things like that. Well, look, don't do it for growth hormone. Growth hormone means fuck off. Well, here's the stuff that really... See, he's trying to make me stupid. There comes beer number four.

Here you go. Here's the thing that really fascinates me with fasting is how it increases the rate of a poptosis of older cells. And then when you refeed yourself, you get these newer cells. There's some preliminary evidence showing that fasting could be a viable treatment for autoimmune disease, which to me blows me the fuck away.

We are in the midst of an autoimmune disease explosion. I don't know, I'm not sure about that, so I'm not the pass on that one. You can't do this. See, and you know what? Come on, you can't do this. That is a sign. Speculate. No, that's a sign on, you can't do that. That is a sign that is. Speculate.

No, that's a sign of good character. No, that's good. That's a sign of good character that he's gonna talk about. Yeah, yeah. But we can all speculate. I can sit around and bullshit. That's what I tell you.

Yeah, see here's the thing though, the sign of a true expert, somebody who is willing to tell you when they don't know what the fuck they're talking. Yeah, totally 100% agree. Totally expect that. What does it mean that your opinion doesn't matter either? Exactly, because I think you're an intelligent person. You think you're way around it. You're pretty wanna hear that. What does it mean that your opinion doesn't matter either? Exactly.

Because I think you're an intelligent person. You think you're way around it. You put everyone in here that way. Yeah, you presented yourself, well, I'm not, you don't have, UK, that's fine, that's good. Now what's your opinion though? Yeah. Based on what I've seen with fasting versus, you activate a lot

of those same pathways just from a reduced calorie higher protein diet. Because a lot of those pathways are diet tied into, shit, I can't remember the kind of days, fuck. But it's in the gluconeogenic pathway, just activating gluconeogenesis is a strong signal for your body. I mean, because calorie restriction,

your body views that as nothing more than controlled starvation in terms of the reaction that your body gives. So you may not get the same strength of reaction of a short term fast, but over the duration of a chloric restriction, you're getting it. Now, people will ask me, like, again, this is one of those people missing the carpal for the horse, though, you know, I don't recommend, well, if you want to do it fine, but I tell people you don't need like super fast, fucking highly branch, cyclic dextrin, after yourD-A workout, or whatever.

You just eat some carbs. And people go, well, I'm worried about getting insulin resistant. Dude, there's a big difference between somebody who's training for two hours a day, having a carbohydrate post workout to replenish muscle glycogen, as opposed to some fat ass sitting on this couch watching TV eating chips. Like this big,

7,000 calories later. Yeah, so I mean, people like, I would, you know, just like, I'm always trying to put stuff in context, you know, that's a sign of an expert as well. Like when you hear, very rarely, have I heard used the words best, worst, always never. You guys haven't heard me say that, right?

Like that's a great bullshit detector right there If somebody's up there and they're saying always do this never do this This is the best. This is the worst. Yeah, you can be pretty sure that person's full of shit, okay? because I think Bertrand Russell said the whole problem with this world is that full fools and zealots are quite sure of themselves And wise people are filled with doubts very true now Graduate like what you do when you they call the Dunning Kruger Kruger effect, right? So when you first start in a subject whatever it is

You have this feeling that you know nothing because you know nothing and then immediately within months You get a very high confidence that you know so much. And then as you transition over years into learning more, your confidence starts to fall. You realize you don't know much. This is the end of undergraduate school, beginning of graduate school, basically. And then as you start to go

and as you start to graduate school, it starts to kind of come back up, right? And what you hear is like people who I I tell people to fall like Jeremy linnike Dan newmyre uh mic's orders here We think that this might make a difference, but under these circumstances and we're not quite sure you know like nobody's saying Bubbles or restriction will lead to 200% more muscle gains and you know shit like that That's only trying to sell something, but that's the problem, you know, like my carbon line

with bioblin.com, we aren't exactly blowing the doors off sales, you know, because I'm not gonna get up there and tell people, it's gonna increase muscle mass by 200%. What a great point. What I tell people is like, listen, I designed it around helping you to train harder, recover a little bit better, right? So it's gonna help you have a little bit more fatigue resistance. It's going to be recovering a little bit better and be able to train a little bit harder. But I'm not saying

go not pay your health insurance bills so you can buy carbon prep and recover and carbon build. You know, like I'm not and I'm not saying, you know, if you're not taking care of all the other shit, the order of importance, this isn't going to matter. And so, you know, it's full credit to bodybuilding.com. They have never tried to make me force me to market it in a way that's not genuine. Actually to their credit, that's smart, because that's not your brand.

Well, if you did that right now, if you came out, I lose my core. Of course, you'd sound like a show star. I'd probably sell more in the short term. Yeah, but in the long term, you'd find. But at the end of the day, the best sleep aid is a clear conscience. Yeah, that's very true.

Absolutely. I want to change direction for a second, because I want to ask you something. Why don't you take steroids? Why don't you take steroids? Why haven't you- Oh, I thought I was if I was a cross-dresser. Yeah.

No, we know about that a lot. No! No, I want to ask you, why make the decision to not, you're in an industry where everybody does. Most people do. Why don't you, why did you decide not to? I just never felt compelled to. That's a simple answer.

Okay, so let me give you an example. Like I loved natural bodybuilding. Okay, I loved competing natural bodybuilding. I mean, the evidence says that if you take a moderate or low dose of steroids, it's really not bad for you. In fact, it might be okay for you, maybe even a little bit good for you, okay? But you're not gonna be competitive

on a world's world level stage taking a low dose of steroids, right? Like once you cross that threshold, if you're gonna be competitive, you better be willing to take a shit low to steroids. It's a very good point. And so I just never felt compelled to, I never woke up and was like, man, I wanna be Mr. Olympia one day.

I wanted to make a living in the fitness industry. I wanted to be a person of influence. And I just wanted to do my thing. And you know what? I one thing I've always been good at is I don't fuck with peer pressure. You're not gonna, you're not gonna, I don't give a fuck when anybody else is doing.

I mean, look at the stuff, I thought, like I started talking about flexible dining when people mocked me for it. Like everybody mocked me for it. People mocked me for reverse dining all of a sudden. I don't care. You say that, but a lot of you had been driven from childhood. You talked about it, I remember last night you mentioned

like being a young kid, being picked on. So that has to stem, some of that motivation has to stem. Oh, approving people wrong is my most favorite hobby in the world, you know. That's my most favorite thing in the world, you know. But it probably gets you in trouble sometimes. No, all the time. Yeah. Is it something do you find?

Do you find this is an area that you have to kind of work on and think about or actively be aware of? Well, I mean, careful not to go over. I tend to be a little bit abrasive, you know, because I speak my mind, but you know, I'll tell people, you know, my buddy Paul, I've talked about Paul Rebell, shout out to him, my good friend. He said that he's like, man, why can't you just be like more positive all the time? But like, just be like really nice to everybody.

And I'm like, you know, I spent 18 years in my life trying to be something I wasn't to make other people happy. I am not going to pretend like something doesn't fucking bother me if it bothers me. I'm just not going to do it. I might not say anything, but if I say something, I'm going to say how you, I'm going to tell you how I really feel, you know?

And you have the right to be upset about it. Just like, you know, people say, I have the right to my opinion. Absolutely. Everyone absolutely has the right to your opinion. You also have the right to get fucking reamed when that opinion is wrong and stupid, okay? And so that's what I'm here for, you know, like,

science is a- That's why I'm alive. Yeah. I mean, I came here to unfuck the fitness industry. That's what I came here for, you know, like that's why I made Avatar Nutrition. It's got to piss you off then, for someone like yourself,

you're the integrity that you come in with, you've very driven, you introduce a concept like flexible dieting. Now people use the acronym I-I-F-A-M. How do you feel seeing? Because you're the first, you really, you didn't introduce counting macros obviously, but you came out and talked about flexible dieting,

which now a lot of people call I-I-F-A-M, and you see hashtags and people putting in their freaking, in their profiles on Instagram, IAF William, and how do you make it? Make it T-shirt companies now. What the fuck, you're not making no money off that. I know, no money. No, how do you feel about pay the king tribute? How do you feel about the way some of these people are representing IAF William and you know what it I guess it's impression now has changed quite a

bit because if I hashtag if I go on Instagram we should do this we should actually test this out if I go on Instagram and I I'm sure lane and I and I hashtag IAF William what ends up coming up is a shit ton of pictures of donuts and ice cream and shit like that and when I look at some of these people's profiles, that's all it is. Actually, it's a lot of shredded people to be honest with you. Yeah. Do it real quick. Let me stay here a little. There's some pretty lean people.

I F one. I am. Oh, that must suck for your bias. I F one. Let's look at it. Hold on a second. I got it. I got it. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, but there's, uh, there's kind of this impression that it, you know, that's what it represents now. Yes, I mean, how do you feel about that? Because I've heard you explain what it means, you know, how you define it and it sounds different. Well, you know, actually, maybe you should explain it first. What is flexible dieting?

So, the idea of flexible dieting is you're not, there's no foods off the table. Okay? Your nutrition intake is a budget actually it's not somewhat quite if you attract to females on that you see yeah, you see hot chick They click on her page and see if you get 80% of her posters. Yeah, and you see a lot of So just call me honey He did you as well That's not a bad one, I'm gonna cry. So, just call me honey. He did.

You as well. That's not a bad one right there. You're sweet. Anyway, continue. He's got beautiful skin. So, the idea is that your daily intake of calories is a budget, right? And if I, like, let's take that example of a budget, right? So if I make a million dollars a year, if I want to go out and buy a hundred thousand dollar sports car

Is that all right as long as I can still pay my mortgage? I can still pay put money away from retirement. I can still you know put money in my kids' cause take care of our responsibilities Right, all right. Yeah, I think everybody agree that some people would say well Some reason why I don't like that I don't like using that is because a dollar bill in that representation is not the same as a dollar bill and nutrition because not every one dollar bill of nutrition is Exactly the same. That's like saying a calorie a calorie hang on well some of my disagreeing be like it's like a hundred Oh, it's like take calories a calorie. Well, it's like making a million dollars and taking a hundred grand and spending it on I don't know hookers and crack fun could be fun

Anyway, I'm sorry interrupt continue. I think we're gonna a little bit outside the school way outside So I'm always speaking for personal experience here because you know, I've never spent a hundred thousand dollars on that So maybe, maybe 80. Maybe. So, you know, I mean, we're libertarians, so I mean, if somebody wants to do that, that's their business, right? Of course.

So my point would be that for that person, as long as they can, and by their budget, I mean, by their responsibilities, you know, hitting their protein carb fat intake, you know, making sure it's a bot. Because the thing is, if you're eating junk food all the time, it's gonna be very hard to hit a macronutrient compositional diet that's friendly towards body composition,

positive body composition, right? Because you're not, if all you eat is pop tart, you're not getting enough protein, you're not getting a fiber, right, you're getting too many carbohydrate for most people. So have you seen, have you heard of Soil and Green here in the Bay? Is it Soil and Green? Is that what they call it? Soil and, have you heard of Soil and Green here in the Bay Area? And those guys are trying to basically like make it so you just drink your, just one shake from.

All, it's all perfect macros, protein, fats, carbs. Uh, uh, watch out for the mic there. We got them angry. Look at that. Uh, it comes with the producer. What the hell has he done to my mic? It's all protein, fats, carbs, and calories and vitamins and minerals. They don't eat food.

This was a movement here in the Bay Area because people wanted to just work. It's gamers, right? Yeah, gamers and engineers. That's an extreme case, of course. But yeah, you can. You can't hit your macro. If I ever get to the point where I just don't want to eat anymore, I think it's take me at the pasture and shoot me.

It's pretty sad, right? That's a great point. So you're saying, if you eat junk food all the time, you're not going to hit your macro. You're not going to hit your macros. And the other thing is that I think that the other thing, I always put constraints on if it fits your macros with fiber. You have to get enough fiber,

because fiber is thermogenic. And you know, there's a lot of foods that they would talk about. Calorie is, I wrote an article about, is a calorie calorie. Okay, so there is a thing called thermic-affective food. And we know that protein and fiber have a greater effect, quite a bit greater affect thermic-effective food

than carbohydrate and fat. Carbohydrate and fat are about the same. Fat seems to be like two, three, four percent. Carbohydrate like five-ish. Proteins like 30, fibers like 30, right? So you get a big book, but thermic-effective food only counts about 10% of your daily caloric burn.

But that being said, it's still different. It adds up. I mean, if you look at comparing diets that are higher in protein versus lower in protein, Icocloric, people higher in protein tend to lose more body fat than people who are lower in protein. But again, we talk about order of importance. Right. Okay. So order of importance is at the end of the day, you can't just eat however many, however much protein and fiber you want and not gain weight or stop yourself from losing weight. No, people ask me, can you store protein as body fat?

Yes, but it doesn't, it's less likely that it'll happen. What's more likely is the protein, if you're excessively eating it, creates a caloric cushion for carbohydrate and fat to be stored as body fat. Now, if you got protein, like let's say you're eating theoretically no carbohydrate, no fat and all protein, right? Pounds of meat a day. First off, your digestive system would feel like shit.

And your back. But, you could store it because you can, that carbon skeleton is some proteins are ketogenic which can then be made into fats, or they're gluconeogenetic, which can be made into carbohydrates, but then can be converted through

denoval apogenesis to fat. Now, is it more difficult? Is it more difficult to overeat on protein and fiber and vegetables? Absolutely, absolutely. But it doesn't mean it can't be done, right? So what I try to get away from people is you know, like like let's take paleo, right? Is the overall message of paleo a bad message?

Eat more protein, eat more whole foods, eat more fiber, eat more vegetables. It's not a bad message. The problems when people become fucking dogmatic about it like you, you can't have dairy. And you can't have beans, cause you know, it just becomes retarded. You know what I mean? We have to look at, it's the same thing with people and I'm gonna a little bit off topic, but. You're not actually. It's not exactly, we know direction.

We know. I think all foods, everybody is affected differently in all foods. We know that. I'm very fascinating. I think our audience is gonna be surprised, it's gonna be a little surprise to find that we actually agree on most of this, cause you fascinating. I think our audience is gonna be surprised to find that we actually agree on most of this,

because you sound a lot like we do, and that's why I asked you how you felt about the current climate around, you know, flexed life. Or do you feel like you could turn into a dogmatic process? I mean, anything can be dogmatic. Anything can be dogmatic.

Absolutely. You get people who are too far on one side of the fence and I F I M. Right? They're trying to force junk food in as much as they can. That's what we dealt with a lot. That's what we see a lot of. And I mean, you know, like people have said, Lane, are you saying that I could just have all the extra protein shakes and a fiber supplement and hit my macros and an oil in my, and I would be, you know, the same.

I don't know. I think when you take anything to an extreme, it's probably and I would be, you know, the same. I don't know. I think when you take anything to an extreme, it's probably not a great thing, you know? Like I think that you can take anything to an extreme. God damn, you're not nearly, you're not even, here's a thing, you're not dogmatic at all about it. And I knew this would happen. I knew we would talk about this and you would make sense.

I hate zealots on any size. See, here's a thing, and here's why we made the t-shirts that said things like I.I.F. William sucks. There's a lot ofots on any size. See, here's the thing, and here's why we made the t-shirts that said things like I.I. Foam sucks. There's a lot of people on social media. I like your shirt, by the way. That's a great shirt. My shirt, by the way, says Make America Science again.

Yeah, nipples can show you. You can find that at lane.org.com. Shop, oo, the titty dance. Shopbyelain.com. Do you get that on video? Tits not included. There's a lot of people who on Instagram will misrepresent it and will say things like it doesn't matter,

eat these things, it fits your macro. Well, even if it's not misrepresenting, here's the problem that I have as somebody who's trained thousands of people is, these people, a lot of these people have an addiction to these type of foods. Just like cancel now. Yeah, well, you see, in your experience, have

you dealt with people that have addictions to foods like this, like sugar, like sugar. I have dealt with people who have certain trigger foods. Okay. And if you have a certain trigger food, what I would say is what's more common though. Well, I see one of the most common trigger foods I've found is like nuts and peanut butter. Like those are very common trigger foods. But sugar is up there too. There's some sugar foods that do that. Well, you tell what I will tell people is, at first, to kind of get them started in a positive direction.

Obviously, okay, let's get those out of the house. But eventually, I would like people to be able to moderate things because it's not a, usually not a reasonable idea to think that people are just gonna have a couple of whole foods out of their diet. Now, that being said, sometimes this requires counseling. Like a lot of people, people don't, the thing that bothers me too is we want to separate physiology from psychology and you can't do it, okay?

See this sucks, I can't even debate you. There's, you know, like if we go in a room, like if we go in a house, if I take you guys into a house, and it has like six doors from the main room, and I say, you guys can go anywhere you want, but for the love of God, do not go behind door number six. If you go behind door number, God help you. If you go behind door number six, what do you want to do? Go behind door number six.

Whoa, what the fuck is in there, right? so they actually there was actually a study where they took people And I can't for them name of the researcher and I can't remember the reference. I just know I read it They took people who had no hit real history of dieting and they said we want you to avoid cookies And what they found was they got increased bench Reasons cookies and cookie binging yeah on cookie, and when they interviewed in this, I wasn't even a big cookie person, but once you told me I couldn't have it, it was like, you know, so I think it depends on where you're at, right?

So if you're somebody who, you know, you have these trigger foods, I think initially to kind of get yourself under control, getting them out is a reasonable thing to do. But it's probably not reasonable to expect that you'll never be exposed to that food again. You know what? You know, it's funny. You're actually going step by step on the playbook of what some of the cutting-edge drug addiction

researchers are saying. Believe it or not, they will literally say if you're an alcoholic or you're addicted to cocaine or whatever We go through a period of abstinence because we want to reset your tolerance Right, and then we want to teach you how to moderate Because people people are like this is the thing you're afraid to use the word addiction But you're literally following the playbook What's a scientist will do and here's the thing is like you know, I feel about this for a while with regards to alcohol like I

Think Complete abstinence might not be the best way to do it. They're finding it isn't. Because what happens? Somebody has one beer and they feel like they failed and they just go into a fucking mode. And they go all in. That's 100% what they're finding with the current research. They're finding that people go on the wagon or what way to heal. Do you know who that is?

I don't. Oh, you look into Dr. Andrew Hill. We had him on the show one time. It was great. The research and stuff that he's doing in this area. Well, he's got what? Four or five facilities across the United States right now. He did.

You'll enjoy the research on the show. Yeah. Very fascinating stuff. But, you know, some of the, some of the, and what you're saying makes complete sense. And here's the thing. There are people, a lot of people misrepresenting what flexible, you know, I hate labels, a lot of people misrepresenting what flexible,

I hate labels, right, because it can become dogmatic. Anytime you have a leo label something, it can become something you identify with, right? But there are people misrepresenting what you may have brought into the fitness industry, because let's be honest, when you came into bodybuilding, when you came into the fitness industry, the way people who are fit eight was they ate the same fucking food six times a day right so they didn't have anything

else and that's really what motivates you wasn't that was a big part of what your motive that's how I found you was the counterculture to that well the you know the the flexible lighting then start out about being about pop charts it started out being about well I think I would like to have turkey instead of chicken. Yeah, oh my gosh. Can we just stop for a second? Yeah. I want people to understand that.

That's so reasonable. That is how it started. Some of the shit that we see now, those stuff that we rail against, they should call it something different. But you're 100% right? Well, I mean, I think that some people want to extremes to prove the point, but I, I scream sandwich every single day of my prep in 2010 and got shredded to prove a point that, okay, like I took care of my fiber,

I took care of my protein, I took care of my carbohydrates. Yeah, but doesn't a part of you think of that? Don't you feel kind of like the guy who's standing at like an AA meeting and having a beer and telling everybody that that really, you don't feel that way. You gotta feel that way a little bit, because a majority of people struggle with these triggers and addictions,

and I mean, obesity is an epidemic. We know that, right? We have an issue with that. We have what the percentages ridiculous amount of people that are overweight and obese, it's like we're as fitness leaders, I feel like we're looking at this community of people, the world, and a majority of them are grossly overweight. And as fitness, what we've told them over the years is eliminate this, eliminate that.

You're right. You're going to eliminate this. And this is where we're very much so, this is where we're very much so alike, because I'm not a fan of demonizing things either. I'm not a fan of, I mean, we know this too of, I mean, my trainers, God, I look back and I feel so guilty. The first probably five to ten years of my fitness career demonizing fat. Tell me, oh, stay away from fat, stay away, but that's what we were being taught. That's the studies that we're being thrown in our face.

We didn't know any better so that type of stuff is what scares me and what scares me in my experience is seeing all these people that I see that struggle with this this Ben cheating and these cravings and whatever and and and I Don't know enough to argue with you about the the science that supports whether it's truly a craving or a psychological thing. At the end of the day, I know there's an issue and I know that I have an opportunity to impact all these people. And I know because I was one of those trainers 10 years ago that used to be like, look, I could eat all this, I could do this

and I could still look this way. But what I didn't realize was I'm kind of flaunting around something that these people are psychologically battling with at home as a major struggle. Well, that's why I think education is important because, you know, you can, I think you can make any movement bad if you take the subculture of it and use that as a representation of what everybody does.

Excellent. Right. So, um, you know, like you could be like, well, I'm fucking MMA sucks because look at these assholes walking around in a flexion shirts, you know what I mean? I know that's a very good point. You could do that. But, you know, I think the, the idea, because I mean, what we go out and we have Mexican food last night, right? Like, not clean, not clean. So the, the the it was filthy as hell felt so

What is it better to just to just just just just just go into fucking mode? No, okay, well, let's go get ice cream in this or as I better say, you know like like I have You know not necessarily track, but you go okay. That seems like a reasonable portion size You know and have some sort of cognitive restraint, which is what I really try to teach people, because at the end of the day, otherwise, you're never gonna be able to cut out quote unquote, bad foods.

I don't care who you are, you're gonna have them at some point. You're gonna have foods that are more calorically dense, a little bit lower in your vitamin, mineral and fiber content. And so you're gonna have them at some point. You're gonna have foods that are more calorically dense, a little bit lower in your vitamin, mineral and fiber content. And so you're better off understanding how to incorporate them. Now again, if I have somebody who has bad habits, right, and they tend to overeat on these things,

am I going to suggest that they try to fill their diet with more vegetables and fruits and whatnot to make them more full? Absolutely, but what I don't want to do is tell them, Hey, you can never have this again because when you do that and there's studies to show this that if you if there's actually a study done by a guy named Western offer and I may butcher it. I can't. I think it was cookies. I could be wrong. They took people who were either restrictive dieters or who were flexible dieters, who would allow themselves other foods.

And they brought them in. And again, I may butcher this study, but the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the g- the You have to eat at least one cookie. You don't have to eat anymore than that. We have to eat at least one And what they found was a much higher incidence of binge eating. They called it disinhibition And the people who were restrictive dieters because they did not understand and I moderate that of course It was it was just a on-off switch of course now. No, no here's No, no, that's a hundred percent my experience working with Chad give me my beer That's why you just kidding That's just kidding. We love Chad. That's why you brought me. Just kidding. That's just kidding, we love Chad. That's 100% accurate.

I've experienced that with clients as well. And now here's the other side of that that I've also experienced. I've had people come to me who follow, where they look at their macros, they have a macro target, and they're so stuck to it, they're so, they identify so strongly with it,

they're going off of it at all, causes them distress, causes them distress. Yes, and you can trade one disorder for another. Absolutely, and so, what, this is why I tell people, if, listen, consistency is so much more important than being exact, those macro targets aren't magic, okay?

Just, if you're within 5 to 10 grams of each one, you're 100% compliant. Okay, there's more error and food labels than you are with accuracy there, okay? So focus on the consistency, that's the biggest part, right? And I try to get them to get off that. But yeah, absolutely. You can trade one disorder for another, for sure.

Now, where do I say? Why, since it appeals to the bodybuilding community, it appeals to the people that are more prone to that addictive type of personality. Like, I had no more so than any other kind of fitness thing. You think so? Look, you have zealots and paleo and fair. Oh, I see. I think I've been a bit in fasting. I think you dig in a diet... Oh, I see you're gonna get in fasting. As a ketogenic diet. No, I think what Adams referring to is people who are really into how they look and their bodies and you get orthorexia and you get people so stuck to following a particular macro profile.

At the end of the day... They were gonna do that regardless of what they were in. That's something that somebody needs a therapist as a pro's to a coach. That's true. But at the end of the day, what would the ultimate goal be? Would the ultimate destination be for the rest of your life, you know, counting your macros, counting your calories, or would it be more intuitive? Or would it be that the counting of the macros and calories is a transition point like being up and aware, know what's in your food.

You got to learn what's in your food. You gotta learn what's in food. But at the end of the day, then you move to this other kind of area where it's more intuitive. Where you understand things. So you guys have been around me for about two days now, day now, have you seen me carry a scale anywhere? No.

So you're probably more on the intuitive side. So I look at stuff. Chad, have I had a scale here the entire time? No, Chad shaking his head. Chad's been around me for a week, poor guy. Sorry. I feel bad for you, Chad, have I had a scale here the entire time? No, Chad shaking his head. Chad's been around me for a week, poor guy. So, I feel bad for you, Chad. I would too. It's okay, I was the big spoon last night, it's all right.

Oh, yeah. So, how we know you're into bonds? I got an LOL, how did they move over there? So, I, I, the idea, so the thing is, it's hard to be an intuitive eater without having gone through the process of learning what's actually happening. Oh, I don't want to be an innocent person.

You can't get there without knowing. So I think it is useful for a month or two months, or whatever time it takes you to learn that, to take a food scale. You don't even need to change the way you eat, but just take a food scale and figure out what the hell's in food. Yeah. I have a is in food. Yeah.

I have a PhD in nutrition. The most I ever learned about nutrition was weighing my food, reading food labels, understanding what was in food. What a high protein food was. Okay, I can remember to this day, the first time that I actually put a yam and weighed it, and what my thoughts of what I was probably consuming

versus what the reality was. Yeah, what the reality was. And because it's a healthy food, I just assume that, oh yeah, that's probably about the... 50 grams of sleep, it's a real fucking fast. It was like five times more calories than what I actually had thought of. Sure. So, I mean, I am 100% agree with you. And that's the problem is people go, well, I eat healthy. Well, what the fuck does that mean?

Like, what do you actually mean by? Why eat healthy foods? Well, okay, well, any food can be bad for you for overconsuming, okay? Even fiber, even vegetables can be bad for you if you overconsume them. So there is no such thing. It's just, it's all context, right?

Like I'm not saying cheesecake is good for you, but you can fit it into a part of a healthy diet. Now it might be a little bit more difficult and you might have to practice extreme portion control, right? And if you're contest prep on 1300 calories a day near the end of a contest prep, you're probably not fitting in cheesecake, right? But can you do it on sometimes? Sure. And still be a healthy person? Absolutely. And I think when we create these negative associations with people is where

we get a lot of these problems. Like, look at what we've done over the past 30 years. We demonized fats. We demonized carbs and we demonized protein and people are still fatter and more unhealthy. So maybe we should look at a different fucking approach than just telling people these foods are bad, these foods are bad. Maybe we should look at telling people, hey, we need to teach you how to practice portion control and understand what actually is in food, right? At the end of the day, you can either give them a fish or you can teach them antifish.

Yeah, you're not gonna teach them antifish. You're talking about another level of awareness and I mean, people go through these four stages of learning we've talked about this before, but most people are just unconsciously incompetent. They don't know that they don't know. And they get to the next level where they get to the next level where now they know that they don't know that they don't know. And they get to the next level where they- Right, babe. Yeah, they get to the next level where now they know

that they don't know, they don't know. So they're consciously incompetent. And I think counting macros, understanding what's in food, is this third stage which is being conscious, they competent. Sure. Moving past that is, and it takes a while, is more of your intuitive eating, and that's where you become more competent,

and unconsciously competent. And the goal is, and the goal is, and I thought by this, is that you don't take a food scout to a restaurant, you don't take it to family gatherings, this and that, but you may have to do that at first in order just to understand what's in food. To know what's happened. But eventually you get to where I am,

where I've been doing this for 15 years, I just mostly know what's in food. Me and Steve Cook played this game. Let's play a game. We played a game, we went to a restaurant and he ordered and I ordered and we guessed what each other's macros were and then we guessed what our own macros were.

We were within five grams of everything on our stuff. You know, because we tied that up. Who was? Oh, nobody. What we did. Don't lie, you know, you know, you look this up. We're both pretty close. We're all pretty close And so it's one of those things where you know now if I was prepping for a contest Would I be bringing a food scale to a restaurant if I was close? Yeah, I probably that's a totally different That's totally I know it honestly. It's it's around two weeks out from a show

I'm probably not going to a restaurant to be honest with you. Well, yeah know it. Honestly, it's really. If I was two weeks out from a show, I'd probably not go into a restaurant, to be honest with you. Well, yeah, right? You're not even doing that. I mean, it's really just levels of awareness. Right. So if you want to go to another level when you're prepping for a show, that's a whole different level of commitment.

It's going to require more stream sacrifice. But if you just want to look good and maintain your body fat in what you have, or get a little bit leaner, you can do that not taking a food scale everywhere, right? But it's gonna require a little bit more effort on the front end. And so I think that's, that is what, you know, when I get, you know, with Avatar, our custom flexible dining service, Shambles Plug. Um, go ahead plug. I mean, you guys saw it last time. We'll have the killer code at the end of the game.

It's right, it's right. We're pretty impressed by everything that went into that. But the main complaint is, well, I want something to tell me how to eat. Okay, we can give you a meal plan, but what does that actually teach you? Right. What happens when you don't have those foods available? You have no idea how to moderate that. You have no idea what's in you just end up kind of,

well, and Cory, Cory probes my friend, she's a PhD in psychology, she calls it the, what the hell effect? I like to call it the fucking mode. And everybody's experienced this. Where you just go fuck it. Right, because you can't, you can't, you don't know enough to,

I'm gonna eat this. Right, exactly. We know where you go and I did this one I remember a sophomore in college. I was in the offseason looking mode, bro and I would I would try to quote unquote eat clean and then my friends were ordered pizza whenever I'd be like Come on. I didn't have a slice pizza. Whatever. I was like, okay, I have a slice pizza Well, I was never just one slice of pizza It's like half the pizza or the whole pizza, right?

Well, was it the pizza that hurt me was the fact that I ate the whole fucking thing, right? Like I had at that moment when you when looking back now, do you feel that was more psychological or do you think there's absolutely? Yeah, absolutely and and I had a gal Klein amine she was she swore she was gluten intolerant which by the, the evidence suggests that that's actually bullshit if you don't have celiac. We can talk about that. For sure. So it's more of the FODMAPs associated with gluten that would be causing any problems. But anyways, she swore she was gluten intolerant.

So I decided, okay, let's go down the rabbit hole. And I was talking to her, well, it's up the only time she was consuming gluten was when she was binge eating, right? She would have it and feel bad, feel bad because it's a bad food. And she would just binge on it because she was like, well, fuck it. I've already screwed up, right? I said, okay, do me a favor. Tonight before you go to bed, have two slices of bread. Let me know if you have side effects when you wake up. Next morning, I emailed, oh my god, I'm not gluten tolerance. Like, well, no shit. Did you think it was the gluten or the 2000 calories you were having at the bench, you know what I mean? So, I mean, that's, that's again where people draw incorrect associations, right? And,

you know, if you don't, and the thing about tracking, if you don't track, you will believe that there are magic foods. Everybody remembers the full fill of heat, while tilapia thins the skin, right? Well, when you were used to eating, you know, steak six meals a day, and you switched to tilapia for six meals a day. You think that's gonna lean you out a bit more? And you cut, you know, six, seven hundred calories out of your diet,

because you switched from a fat of your meat, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, He's very hard worker. That was a terrible terrible statement. But but that's not that's not his fault because when you it's this trainer fault. Who's this trainer? Honey. Oh, yeah. I continue. So when you when you when you believe that there are when you don't if you don't have a method of accounting for this, you will believe that there are magic foods. Just like if you don't track, for example, like volume in your training, you'll believe that there's magic training programs, magic sets and reps, right?

So guys know small off, right? Small off squat program, people go on the base meso cycle, and then three weeks they put 20, 30, 40 pounds on their squat, and they go, oh my God, that was some kind of magic. Well, no, you went from squatting once or twice a week to four times a week and you tripled your volume. Of course, you got stronger, you know?

Like, so there's no magic program. And people just don't want to hear that. No, I think there's general rules, but the individual variances could be so dramatic. But I do want to go back to gluten. I have to talk about gluten with you because you brought that up. You brought that up. Here's something that I want to discuss that with you. But earlier, we had talked about flexible dieting and no, before that, excuse me, reverse

dieting and metabolic damage and how there isn't much science to support it. However, there's lots of anecdote. When it comes to gluten, and I don't know, my personal opinion is, I don't think they know exactly where to look, but when you look at, especially people with autoimmune type symptoms, from the high end, things like Crohn's

to people with irritable bowel syndrome, which seems to be, actually is, statistically, on the rise, gluten, for the vast majority of them, seems to be actually is statistically on the rise. Gluten, for the vast majority of them, seems to be a trigger. There's lots of antidote connecting it to it. Now there's some science that kind of points in that direction, but nothing really conclusive, yet however you've got all these people,

lots of people, look, I have a god son who's got Crohn's disease. And his mom, who's just a warrior for her son, like any parent, you have a god son who's got Crohn's disease. And he built his mom who's just a warrior for her son. Like any parent, you have a parent that, you have a child that has a disease or disorder. You are going to, many parents are going to dive into research and reading. And luckily today we have the internet. So you have all this information at your fingertips.

And there's all these forums. And she'll show she went on these forums with all these other Crohn sufferers. And they were talking about something called the carbohydrate-specific diet. And there's lots of forums and show she went on these forums with all these other cron sufferers and they were talking about something called the carbohydrate-specific diet. And there's lots of foods that they eliminate. One of them is gluten. And when he eliminated gluten, his symptoms reduced dramatically. And whenever he reintroduces gluten, even the smallest amount, even if it's like a small

amount, an ingredient within a food, he gets a flare up, and there's lots and lots and lots. I mean, you go online and there's a huge amount of people that talk about how gluten triggers them. You have to wonder, maybe it's not a... Triggered. Hashtag triggered. Exactly. Maybe it's not the gluten triggering me.

Maybe it's something else within the gluten, or maybe it's their hyper-inflammatory state, but what do you say to that? I mean, there's a study that came out and said, oh, gluten intolerance is not a real thing, but there's so much anecdote that comes out. So the thing is that gluten intake is associated with other highly allergenic components

of food, FODMAPs. So I think what's more likely is that the other components of the food, somebody who's highly has that allergic, what I want to say. I'm on beer number four, so you guys know what the fuck I'm saying. So we got you. That kind of makeup, there probably is something in there, but I don't think it's gluten based on the research,

but it may be other things that you just inherently get with gluten, confounding variables. So, it may be that reducing gluten and take for these individuals is important, just because of the other things that are associated with it. But as far as gluten actually having like an intolerance or we just don't have that data. So what do you actually, to be honest, like the researcher who who did that was actually kind of a badass because did you know he was the one that actually proposed the idea of a gluten intolerance.

He thought he saw it one of his studies and then he went back and corrected himself. Every test that he came back out was like no it's actually wrong No, I'm very fucking bad motherfucker right there. No, that's that's a that's true I'm actually familiar with that particular with this particular study that that said that however I mean that community I belong to it. I you know I personally have an intolerance to gluten or maybe it's the gluten associated with other foods exactly At a boy it could be. Nonetheless, it's distinct.

I can see it. It's clear. It's with my own anecdote. So I do find it interesting. But let me ask you this. Now that you're 35, now that you've been training as long as you have, you're such a driven, intense individual.

No. Is it? Do you find your motivation start to turn more towards longevity and health or are you still performance muscle building driven? By the way, this thing doesn't really make you sound sexy the other way. I told you, bro. I told you, bro.

You're going to start wearing headphones at home now. Seriously. All the time, man. I probably still sound like shit when the audience comes out, so. No, you'll sound great. You sound like a little more baritone on this thing. It might have something to do with the bad ass cube, but it might have something to do with that.

You sound totally sober. So listen, I can explain the most complex science even when I'm drunk. I love it. I'll watch it. So I even forgot my question. God damn it. Son of a bitch. We're called deflection.

Yeah deflection. Very smart. You were asking if I was leaving more towards the end. Yeah, do you leave more towards the end? Oh, Mr. drunk guy remembers all that shit I'm drinking tequila. We all are bro. It's only even playing field. Okay. So man a drink. Yeah, so the I think honestly what

Works best for body composition and in a lot of ways can be best for what's long for what's best for longevity? Oh beautiful statement. So I think that you're gonna be intermittently calorically restricting, because if you wanna maintain that lean body mass, you're gonna have to do that. You're gonna be exercising. You're gonna be doing a lot of the stuff

that's a big major stuff, right? Longevity wise, I mean, if you're exercising and actually watching what you eat, you're 95% the way there, you know You know, we can talk about these little things that maybe make a difference maybe don't But what we find is you know even with the like Maybe I may Screw this up, but I remember being in grad school looking at some

Some papers about like sulfur a fame or a lecapine You know these things like tomatoes and broccoli. So for things a huge right now. It's a huge subject looking at some papers about like sulforaphane or leccopene. You know these things like tomatoes and broccoli. So, sulforaphane is a huge right now. It's a huge subject. I know, a run to Patrick's talking quite a bit about it. But you know what you find is that sometimes it's a nature's cookbook.

So you have these individual chemical compounds. This doesn't even have an effect. But what you usually find is that the whole food is usually better. Whole food. The actual, that it seems like there is some kind of mil-loo of antioxidants, minerals, whatever. They call it the monterrage effect.

That it seems to work better than just the individual compound. And so I think if you're emphasizing the importance of self-control, restriction, training, you know, being consistent. And let's be honest, like there's something to be said with just being happy. Like, okay, you can eat every fucking clean food there is. You can be neurotic about everything, but if you're fucking miserable because you never feel like you can go out with your friends, like, is that really healthy? You know, is it really healthy to be like, to have anxiety when somebody brings a piece of cake in the room, you know? So I think there's something to be said for,

just mental clarity of understanding what's in food. That's all part of health. And I gotta be honest with you, I think your message gets, don't do that. Don't do that. I think your message gets misconstrued and miscommunicated quite a bit.

Well of course it does. Quite a bit. Well because I feel like he had a community example. He had to take a strong opposition to, especially the bodybuilding community because you talk. Yeah, the bros that are out there that are spreading the science. So, and I feel like we can relate to that because that's a lot of what we did. And we just took a different approach instead of going to nutritioning,

but we kind of stayed away from that because we know how dogmatic and religion it can be. So we went more like programming because we saw the major flaw in that everywhere. Speaking of that, like, and not to make a total left turn on us with the nutrition. What's your thoughts on programming right now that you see out there in the fitness world and all these different online websites I can subscribe to for $9 and get my workouts

and all these kids. Glad you elaborated because you know one of my least favorite things in the world when people say is, what are your thoughts on X? Not X to see, but like actually like something, insert something. Yeah, so that's what I read it. Too big.

You know, I think that, I think there's a lot of ways it's going to cat, you know, you can get results from a lot of stuff. I tend to think that the nuance of trying to find a program that is effective but minimizes the risk for injury and is fun for the individual is the difficult thing, right? Because people say, oh, I don't care what's fun.

Well, yes, you should. It should be fun. Your workout program should be fun because if it's not fun, you're not gonna work hard at it, you know? It should be fun. One of the reasons I got into parallel thinking the offseason for bodybuilding was because I found bodybuilding training

fucking tedious in the offseason. I loved the idea of like looking and seeing myself get stronger, you know, it actually made me train harder. So for me, that was better because I was more intense and train harder and was more adherent to it, you know. You know, I tend to not be dogmatic about anything, but you say my message gets construed, I tend to not be dogmatic about anything. But you say my message gets extrudal, misconstrued, and I had this discussion with Mark Bell about ketogenic

diet. I said the other day on Twitter, there was a study that came out that showed that a ketogenic diet was not superior to a non ketogenic diet when calories and protein were equated in terms of fat loss. So I posted this, nowhere did I say the ketogenic diet didn't work or it sucked. Or it didn't have merit or whatever. The first tweet I get is an individual who's like, that's not true. I lost 50 pounds on the ketogenic diet. I said, okay, tell me where I said the ketogenic diet didn't work. And literally went back and forth with this person for about 20 messages

who could not fucking grasp the simple idea that me saying the ketogenic diet wasn't the best freaking thing in the world, I don't know why I said it for you right there, the best fucking thing in the world was not the same thing as me saying it didn't work. Right? So the same thing like you guys don't intermittent fasting, you know, Martin Berkham, he calls himself the high priest of intermittent fasting. I don't think that's what good yes. I thought we were the high priest. So, so I got interviewed by

actually, so he Lee, who's now my co-host of physics science radio, this is actually how we met to be doing an article on intermittent fasting. And she asked why I thought of it. I said, well, you know, in terms of fat loss, that doesn't seem to be any difference between, if you want to eat one meal a day or 10 meals a day, there doesn't seem to be a difference. The research really clear on that.

So in terms of that, like kind of do what you want, but in terms of animalism, it looks like that there is something to be said for multiple protein doses per day of high quality protein. We saw the SNR studies. I said, so if you ask me about it for muscle mass, I would say it's probably a little bit so optimal. And that's exactly how I worded it. And the high priest, apparently this was blasphemy to him. And he went out in Twitter and went crazy on me, you know, and was calling me doctor, but in a very like sarcastic

You know somehow I guess my PhD is a bad thing to this person, you know like I'm like I'm not sure how you're using that as an insult, but okay good good job for that, you know If it's so fucking easy, why don't you go fucking do it? So just saying I like if you guys watch big bang theory No, okay. Well, there's there's a great part where there's one guy who has a master's animal. I watch the Bang Theory, but that's different. Well, Wallowitz is his name. And his wife has a PhD.

And he's like, he's lamenting the fact that all his friends make fun of him that he just has a master's. And she says, well, why don't you just do a PhD? I have one, it's great. So all you out there that like, you know, you want to you want to make it, you know, like try to like Like make it like a bad thing. Well or or say, well, it's not that well, if it's not that hard, then why don't you fucking do it? You know, like it's I have one. It's great. You get to put the art for your name. Like it's fabulous. So you know, anyways, it was just

But it was a classic example of just somebody like hearing what they wanted to hear. I didn't say anything bad about intermittent fasting. I even said some good stuff about it, but they focused on the fact that I said, maybe it wasn't optimal for muscle mass. But what else did I say? I said, hey, if it fits your lifestyle, it could be a great tool. If it helps you, it helps you stay, you know, in a caloric deficit, if you're trying to lose fat, if it helps you, it helps you stay, you know, in a caloric deficit, if you're trying to lose fat, if it helps you fit, you know, fit in it and better, by all means, I'm not mad at you. You know, people get this idea that I had this the other day.

So I said, I heard you hate fastocardial. I said, well, no, I don't hate fastocardial. Fastocardial didn't come in my house and kick my dog and punch my wife. You know, like, I don't hate it. I think the application is a little bit limited in terms of it's not better than Fed Cardio. But if you tell me you do faster Cardio, I'll just say, okay, what are you doing it? Well, because I have to be up for work early and this is the only time I can get it in and I get upset some of my heat before I go, before I do Card cardio. Great, then go to the fastocardio. But if you're trying to tell me you're doing it

because it's better for fat loss than I'm sorry, that's bullshit, right? So I'm not anti-cutogenic diet, I'm not anti-fastic cardio, I'm not anti-airman fasting, I'm not anti-in this stuff, I'm just anti-fucking bullshit. That's the dogmatic part. Yeah, I just, I hate dogma, man. It drives me absolutely fun. And you guys were talking about,

something earlier made me think of something. Knowledge in a way is a burden because once you have knowledge and you're not ignoring anymore, ignorance is bliss. It really is. Once you have knowledge and you have enough of it, you have to look at something go. That's bullshit. You know, like, it's like, like, my, you know, I'll get friends

everyone. Talk about, you know, how fucking hard it is to make money in the fitness industry when you, when you feel that way. Oh, it's so hard. God. I mean, if I, listen, if I came out with a five foods that worked or, like, listen, when I went into do my PhD, I wanted to find magic foods. If I had found magic foods, we wouldn't be having this conversation here, we'd be having on my private jet. You know what I mean?

So it's, when I come out and I say, well this matters only in this situation and I'm giving context to everything and I'm kind of he, and I tell you don't, I don't know about certain stuff. Like, that doesn't help me sell you shit. It's because I'm just not willing to fucking lie to you about it. But, I think it gives you longevity in this industry

because you haven't gone anywhere. Since you've come and since you've been in the industry, till now, we've seen, well, not only that, we've seen the rise and fall of many, many, many bullshit people and supplement companies. We talked about shreds and we first started, we only that, we've seen the rise and fall of many, many, many bullshit people and supplement companies. We talked about shreds and we first started, we saw that whole thing going. What's up, Devon?

Yeah, good job. So, do we swole? Do we swole? Especially the age of information, I think it's, it's right, what is in the future for you? Where are you going? What's next? Change the world. So, you know, I, I, I,

arrogant lane can come out for a second. I thought he was already on the He laughed. Really? Really? When do you leave? Careful. Level two. Here we go. My buddy Ed always says, it's not a hot air balloon or is that at biolains head rising over West Tampa, you know, so But I really feel like that my My reach is only limited by how many people I can get in front of I feel like if I can get in front of people I can talk since to them like that's why I want to get in Rogan because not because I hate Joe Rogan because I feel I actually feel like he's a very very smart guy Not because I hate Joe Rogan because I feel I actually feel like he's a very very smart guy Right, I feel like some people have given him some I feel bad for him because I feel like some people come on a show and drop bad

Fucking information and sold bullshit. What's the last one that you've seen him that he's had like that? Gary Talbs. Who's that? I don't know that is no carbohydrate Gary Talbs was an epic journalist. He's a fucking journalist. Gary Talbs was an epic. I told you guys a story last time I'll tell it again Gary Talbs was an epic fitness summit in the UK and I think it was 2000 and 15 and I was there it was a great lineup like there's Brett Contreras. There's Alan Argon James Krieger like a lot of myself a really great lineup of Greg Knuckles, you know. And I just was born with a gene of one, not giving a fuck, and two, being incapable of bullshit.

So I have a hard time like acting friendly towards somebody who's, I know is a charlatan. So, Alan and Gary are having a debate. And I use debate in quotations. It's more like a fucking dismantling by Alan, right? And Gary is the only person in the room who believes he's winning, you know? I was actually like, I don't like Gary Talb's, I was fucking embarrassed for him. I really was, but I felt bad for him.

I'm just like, wow, you're not even cognizant of the fact that you're getting completely dismantled right now. And as Alan's going through all these studies, this is basically like Gary's belief that that sugar is evil and the cause of everything from global warming to, I don't know, Trump getting an office. So, and Alan's going through all these studies and dismantling this argument, right? And Talb's fallback is, well, that study was funded by this person. It was funded by that person. Oh, well, that couldn't be right.

This and that. And then he has the audacity to say, not quoting his studies, but he has the audacity to say, well, I'm funding studies that are going to prove this. Just to show you're not a scientist, you never come at it from the angle. Well, this study is going to prove this. Just to show you not a scientist, you never come at it from the angle. Well, this study is going to show this. Hi, your bias is showing. Yeah.

You know, and I put my hand up because I couldn't just couldn't fucking stand anymore. And I said, so you're saying that all of Allen's studies that he used, is very convenient that all the Allen studies are somehow biased, but all the ones you're going to fund are beyond reproach. By the way, his studies got done and showed the exact fucking opposite thing that he said. Right? And then when they came out with that, he still came out and said, I don't believe this.

And Allen asked him, he said, if you had enough evidence presented to you, would you change your mind? And he said no How the hell can anybody take somebody like that seriously? Well, that's really you are talking about a religious zealot that has decided to make low-corpo hydrate their religion of choice We also have anti artificial sweetener zealots. We have Anything paleo zealots we like it. Like intermittent fasting zealots, it's like they're more concerned about belonging to a group. I feel like it's, I think it's a great thing.

I feel like it's everywhere in fitness. We take a little bit of science or a little bit of something that we find out and we just, well, especially if it works for you individually. Right. And you're gonna go 100% in. And so of course, when, when, when, when Tabs will on Rogan, you know, cause Rogan likes the ketogenic diet,

does the ketogenic diet, there's no problem. I've talked about the applications of the ketogenic diet, but I'm just not gonna, I'm just, I'm sorry, I can't sit here and sell you that it's, it's somehow this, well, this is what, this is what, this is what happened with it. We had, we had Dom on the show. Dom Digestino?

Yeah. Love Dom. Right?? Yeah. Yeah. Love Dom. Right? Great guy. Yeah. He's actually gonna be coming in here. Yeah, we haven't come back. We love Dom. And, give me a kiss for me. Because of that. Oh, good.

And I was a 400 to 600 gram of carb guy. And I was like, you know what? I wouldn't, I had no, at that point, I had no desire to even think about going ketogenic. But I thought, you know what? I should be open-minded enough to try it and see how I feel, and then I could speak educated after, at least going through the experience

and seeing what I went through. And I loved it. I loved how I felt. It opened my eyes with the amount of fat that I couldn't take because for so many years, I demonized fat, and I'd never seen what it was. My body would feel like, look like,

if I did 200 plus grams of carbohydrates, or 200 grams plus of fat. So to see myself eating that abundance of food, I felt satiated through the day, I felt like I wasn't holding a ton of water. There was a ton of things that I saw that I'd like. But the problem I had with it was to follow in these perfect guidelines of ketogenic,

man, I was only choosing from the small. Oh, small, yeah, small. Very limited to food selection. All this to food, andinnick, man, I was only choosing from the small, small, small, small, small, small, small, small, this to foods, and I thought to myself, well, even if it has all these health benefits and it's got all these great things about it, it can't be that great for me to only be cycling these amounts of foods.

And so, and you get this sustainability. Like, you can do that forever. And exactly, and this is where I came out on the show and I said, listen, you know, I know my pump comes out and we talk about the benefits of the ketogenic diet. But I want you guys to be very, very careful not to attach ourselves to it to where it becomes like the official diet. There's some health benefits that we've seen.

There's some things that anecdotal that we've gone through personally. But I'll also tell you that I don't, I hate putting labels. I hate isms. I hate fucking anything that ends don't, I hate putting labels, I hate isms, I hate fucking anything that ends like that, I hate shitties them. It is, it's all, but fitness is known to do that. We take a little bit of information,

we take a little bit of science. If a little bit of something's good, then a shit load must be best. Oh, I think so. Yeah. 20 grams of crap to do. Put it in a pill. Yeah.

So, you know again, and it's I think that you know the Q&A diet has applications and again, I actually I just want to reach a lot of people You know to be able to to kind of uncloud this thing because I'm tired of people demonizing food I I just really am. Like, and to see Gary Talb's on there spewing that bullshit with, and listen, to Joe's credit, he's had Roger Patrick on there. I think Rhonda's legit, very legit. I think that she, I disagree with her on certain things,

but for most part, we agree on those things, you know? And I fell for it. I love her podcast. She's got a great podcast. She's great. And so. Yeah, she's great And so I just feel like I would love to provide An opposing point of view and I think is a smart man. Yeah, it's important to have that So I would love to do that to be able to reach a lot of people So so so you want to get you just want to get on mediums where you can read. Yeah, whether it's Rogan or it's today show or whatever

I'm like I said I tweeted the other day like I saw something on I forget what mainstream. I was like put me in there with one of these guys. Oh fucking annihilate them. I don't have to curse either. I can actually debate without cursing. I just choose to on this because it emphasizes my fucking point. So if we're all used to sensitive snowflakes out there, I'm not sorry. They're not a good company here. So there's none left. Yeah. So you know, it's one of those things that I just want to be able to help people like at the end of the day. I want to do that.

And that's why, you know, she almost plugged in coming. I created something like avatar nutrition. So for those who aren't familiar, avatar nutrition is a custom flexible dieting service where you can go. We did it last night, right? Adam entered in his height, his weight, body fat, all these different metrics. I mean, you saw it.

There was like, like probably like 10 to 15 metrics, you have to enter in very detail. Adam, we're talking about you entering in your information into Avatar. And at the end of it, it's spit out a macronutrient and take for him for reverse dieting. And I think, you know, you were pretty impressed with how close it got it in terms of what you thought

it should be. Absolutely. And I thought I was pretty funny too, because I think you thought that I was gonna expect more protein right out the case. Yeah, well, you know, you know. Thought I was a bro there for me. You know, you're a quasi-bro, you know, so.

But it's, you know, we've really, you know, we really listen to our users, we put a lot of features in there. So, for people who are used to a lot more protein and who enjoy that, we even say, listen, this protein, we have a protein boost option, right? And it says on the protein boost option, you're not getting any more animalic benefit.

But if you like more protein, here, you can use this slider and you can take it up to a certain level. But even then, you're not getting any more animalic benefit. But if you like more protein, here, you can use this slider and you can take it up to a certain level. But even then, you're not even pushing beyond 2.8 grams per kilo. Yeah. Like 1.3 grams per pound. We don't let you go to avatar. Well, that's not let you get into retard territory. So sorry, that that's very insensitive. That's that's wrong. Stupid territory. How about that? You're not you're not going you're not recommending like there's another

Two grams per Yeah, there's another PhD in the fitness industry that recommends Yeah, it's currently involved in a lawsuit. Yeah Does he sell protein? Oh, hey, look Lane Norton sells protein and he's sitting here saying you that point eight grams per pound is probably enough Oh my god like, you know, god, I'm doing this business thing Can we talk a little bit about a little bit about how you, I mean, you set, you structured that relationship when you did yourself. Hey, let me finish talking about Avatar. So just real quick. So finish your famous one. Well, no, because I really, I really do honestly feel like this is going to be the thing that

changes the world for me because you think about this. My you know, my fitness pal, I'm an hour for half a million dollars, half a billion dollars, 500 million. All it does is track your intake crowdsourced macronutrient intake tracker. This will generate custom macronutrient recommendations, custom nutrition recommendations based on your individual metabolism and then we'll adjust them based on how you progress every week not only that But every time you check in every week with your weight and body fat those sorts of things and if you don't have a but if you don't have calipers or weight weight and measure body fat, we have a calculator on the site Every it'll not only change your macros to optimize things

But it will give you a pop-up that says hey, this is what happened and this is why we did it. Right? So eventually we've had some people who have like used the service for so long, they said, you know, I canceled the service now because I wasn't happy but because I understood how to do things. Like it taught me how to do things. We're not looking to have people on for lifetime.

We're looking to have them on and be able, because we'll always be enough clients. There's always enough clients out there. But we want people to be able to have something they can do for a lifetime, we're looking to have them on and be able, because we'll always be enough clients. There's always enough clients out there. But we want people to be able to have something they can do for a lifetime, you know, and we're having some pretty awesome results now that's been around for a while. Now, as somebody who's tried to build an app before, what are some of your fears right now?

Like, don't you worry about, you say my fitness pal, like I'd be worried that my fitness pal catches wind of avatar. And so we'd probably proposed a license it. You know, those sorts of things. But we've already had people try to copy us. Oh, right. We've copied us. Oh, really?

It copied us in terms of, you know, obviously the back end data calculations and algorithm they haven't copied because that's proprietary. And when people say, well, what about, there was one guy who had an app that when we came out, he tried to say we copied him, which, he doesn't have any credentials.

But he sent all of his little users over to talk shit about us. And he was like, I have a patent. I said, okay, well, let me see it because we searched for it because, are we have a patent pending? He sent me a trademark. I'm like, he realizes this is a trademark.

Right. You realize the difference, right? So here's what I want you to do. You stop sending your little shits over to talk trash about us because you don't have any background in nutrition. And I won't. I won't sue you. I won't try to shut you down.

We get our patent because I'm not looking to shut anybody down. If his app is better than ours than by God, he should make more money. That's free market thinking It's the free market thing and you know what? Does it get annoying to have people copy me at every single step of the way of what I've done? Absolutely, you know absolutely stop being so mean this is a good concept But but but you know what at the end of the day But, but, but, you know what? At the end of the day, good. I hope you copy me.

Bring it the fuck on. Because you're not gonna outpass you me. You're not gonna outwork me. You're not gonna care about this like I did. You're not gonna go all in like I did. Okay? So I hope you copy me. Try it.

Because I'll fucking bury you. All right? I'm sorry, that may be a little bit harsh. But listen, listen, I'm a competitor, right? People want to act like life is a competition. Everything is a competition, right? And it's not that I want to put you out of business or anything like that. I'm not saying that I think there's enough room in the fitness industry for several things like this, but I want to win. You know what I mean? Like I want to win.

Not because of money or anything like that, because I just want to win. When was the last time? And I believe in our product. When was the last time your competitive personality kind of fucked you? Was it last time that you're over? Cause here's a belief that I have. And correct me if I'm wrong here. I was playing basketball with my son.

No, I jumped on his ass. You always lose. I like to say that your greatest strength is your greatest weakness. Probably, you know, I think that, you know, I probably get a little bit to intense on social media sometimes, because I'll just tell you what I think.

Yeah, what's the last thing that got you in trouble? Think about it. If you're in trouble, if you're self-reflecting right now on. They got on my last post on Instagram here. You tend to attract some of these fucking trolls I mean like suit now. They're not they're not average trolls. They're super trolling. They make like a living off of being trolls Yeah, so yeah, let's talk about this controversy because that was a big fucking thing big big thing So yeah 2013 so I had just started kind of recording regular uploads to YouTube.

And you know, didn't really know about the YouTube fitness community that there's a whole fucking community people out there, you know. And for the most part, like... Damn it. Do you want another monster? No, I'm good. I should be able to make it. Okay.

So, you know, for the most part, I've met in the YouTube community. It's been actually been pretty cool. But unfortunately, my introduction to YouTube fitness community was not good. So people started tweeting me and Facebooking me and they said, hey, have you seen this criticism of your research by Jason Blaha, who people considered an expert? Who? who people consider an expert, who, despite his claims, is fat, never has been in good shape. The leanest picture we have of him, he doesn't have abs,

and he doesn't have a degree in anything. Now, he claims he did. What's his background? A liar. If you're, is that, can you say that? Now he claims he does background a liar Is that if you have that's a title if you have no conscience you can say whatever the fuck you want about anything Yeah, he's a mercenary. Yes. Yeah, it's claimed he was a mercenary worked for the CIA trained at the farm and Langley which by the way the farm is not fucking it Langley first clue so which by the way the farm is not fucking it Langley! First clue! So anyways people sent me these videos and I'm supposedly criticizing my research and I started watching the video. Now which research was this that he was criticizing? Some of my PhD research on on Lucy and I'm like I watch two minutes of it

and first off there's like he needs to be high for this. So first off, there's like, stuffed animals in the background. I'm so broke. He's, there's like stuffed animals in the background and shit, and I'm just like, who's gonna take this guy seriously, you know? And he's like hitting a bicep shot,

but has no biceps, you know? I'm like, is this like a joke or something? And I just after two minutes, it was very apparent that he had not read my research in any way, shape or form. And I just turned it off. I'm like, nobody's going to take this guy seriously. And people took him fucking seriously. So did you get a lot of hate from that? Yeah. And basically what he said was that you couldn't trust my research because it was funded by some companies uh... uh... no what it was how large how large of a falling did he have this time

was he pretty big is probably between face book and youtube around a hundred thousand okay so uh... got yet that many fucking followers it's disturbing i'm actually you know i'm actually less mad at him and more upset that people would be willing to follow somebody well come on we got We got the Kardashians. For example, if you have a sign on a fence and it says, but where rabid dog and you go inside and you get bit by the dog,

should you be mad at the dog or are you just a fucking idiot? No, you shouldn't be mad at the dog. The dog did what it's going to do. He's got some kind of disorder. He's going to do what he's supposed to do. You're just not supposed to follow him and take him fucking seriously, right? so In any case, I made a tweet so so this is what one of those examples where I should have just been like the guys Alunatek he's weird. I should have just ignored. Yeah, right? But that's very self-aware for you to pick that up now. So yeah

I like experience so I I That's very self-aware for you to pick that up now. So yeah, well, I've had a lot of likes experience. So I made a tweet, something to the effect of, yes, some guy sitting on his couch, recording to a camera, is better qualified to discuss my research than me. And this is one of those guys who is an escalator, right? He'll never de-escalate a situation. And we'll never admit that he was wrong about anything, anything. And I've got a story about that that I'll tell here in a second. And so then, he needed to take it to the next level, which was not only was my research fabricated, but I was also on steroids.

And people just accepted this as fact, right? And it actually, like, it generated, I lot I mean hundreds if not thousands of comments on my YouTube emails and you know I could have tolerated most of it until I remember he put out a video the day my son was born like to generate hate don't tell me that was my accident he did the same thing to Jerry which I'm not a big fan of Jerry Ward, but today Jerry Ward's dad died, Blah-Haw put it on a video, talking shit about Jerry Ward.

Tandu's filthy, huh? Oh, he's piece of shit. So, and I have no problem saying that, like he's a human piece of fucking shit. There's no redeeming qualities about this individual. And just, I have so many, so anyway, some of his fans One of them in particular said that he would like to beat my wife and

Beat my son till he's a paraplegic and I don't care he will say oh well you you you can't take that seriously I don't give a fuck if you have kids anybody out there as kids if that doesn't raise the hairs in the back of your neck and make you want to go fucking ape shit There's something wrong with you, you know what I mean? So I finally got to the point where I'm like I'm I'm not gonna you know Some people need to realize that there's consequences to their actions. You can't just say whatever the hell you want and have nothing happened So I lived in the UK. He lived in the UK. He was married to a gal over there. And he was not a citizen of the UK, he was from the United States, ironically,

getting disability benefits from the United States, by the way. But still, oh, he has a disability, but can still compete in fucking powerlifting, right? Claim he has a man ears disease, maybe he does, maybe he doesn't but his first wife has commented multiple times that they were never able to actually find anything wrong with him and that all he did was sit around and play World of Warcraft for 10 hours a day

Mr. Mercenary CIA operative fucking World of Warcraft. Oh yeah, that's so. Oh, it all makes sense now. And actually, so I decided, okay, I hired a firm over in the UK, because I could sue him here, but it would have no, unless he came back to USA, there's no recourse, right? So I hired a firm over there, and I just wanted to send a cease and the cease letter, and I figured, all right, if I show this guy I'm serious, he'll just chill the fuck out, you know?

And what's that process like, too? Is that cost a lot of money to do that? Just to send the cease and the cease letter was like $6,000. Wow. You know, because then the exchange rates killer, too. You know, so I did that. We sent a cease and the cease letter.

And immediately he sent an email saying, I'm, you know, I think we've had some misunderstanding. I don't know what the fuck you can misunderstand. He's like, I, you know, I'd like to make a public apology to you. I'd like to call you on the phone and apologize, and I would like to make a reasonable payment of damages. And I thought, okay, this thing's going to come to an end.

You know what I mean? Like, I find, and I asked my attorney, and I'm like, listen like listen what's a what's a reasonable compensation? What's a reasonable ask for? They said definitely a public apology that you have to approve before it goes up. So I can't be like some thinly veiled like sarcastic apology, right? And you should get all of your attorney fees, which that that that point was like 12 to 15 thousand dollars, I think. And damages. I said, okay, I said, listen, listen. I don't, I just want this whole fucking thing

to be over with. And I think what I decided on was, I just want half of my attorney fees. If I get half, and I get an apology, you know, it was more of a token thing. Like, he could have come back and said, listen, I can, all I can pay is a thousand bucks. Fine. Just a token, right? Like, I can all I can pay is a thousand bucks fine

Just a token right like I just wanted just admitting it. You know what I mean and He went full fucking crazy mode like sin a sin a letter back to my attorneys and said Goodbye attorney said, okay, this is his our client against our Advice has offered to take half of our fees and no damages and a public apology. So I think it was asked for $6,000 basically, or $6,000 pounds, because it was UK, British. And he came back and said, I'm not gonna pay anything. And I'm gonna report you for fraud

because you have obviously fraudually inflated your fees. You know, accused my attorneys of fraud. By the way, this, this firm withers is very well known and very, very prestigious firm over the UK. And my attorneys came back to me. They're like, this guy's nuts. You know, like they, they, this guy's nuts. So we had a soon because not only that but he put it out in video like what

it happened and that we were fraudulent and he was reporting me to the IRS for fraud and all this kind of stuff. So we sued him. How old are you? Where are you at in your career? 31 years old, I think at that point. 2013. So we sued him. No, 32 years old. So we sued him not 32 years old so so we suit him and Because at that point is more about a point of principle I didn't want to of course I didn't want to send a cease and to cease and then not follow through on it And you're like you're a bitch if you do that right? No, you're on bold in him if you don't exactly and you know, I'm the kind of person. I'm the exact opposite of him In every single way if I tell you I'm gonna do something, I will fucking do it.

Okay, I don't just talk, I do it. All right, this guy, all he is, is a talker, right? So we send the lawsuit, which you promptly post on his Facebook, right? Post it all online. It just enormous amounts of hate. Well, actually at that point, the guy who used to own the Jimmy went to emails me and said, thank you so much. This guy is a piece of shit. He said,

I kicked him out of my gym because I found him he was sending messages to one of my trainers about how to take steroids. And what happened was the guy who owned the gym didn't kick him out for that. He just went up to him and said, hey, listen, I saw that you're giving advice to one of my trainers about taking steroids. You know, what you do with your own bodies, that's fine, but I would just really appreciate if you didn't do that. And he goes, well, I didn't do that. And he's like, and I said, well, I saw the emails.

And he's like, it wasn't me. He literally had to physically take the laptop and show it to Blah-Haw This is this is what he told me show it to Blah-Haw And even then Blah-Haw didn't admit that he did it. He just kind of grumbled and started a little delusional if you ask me wait, so He got kicked out of his gym because the guy was like at that point. I was like well, you know Fuck you guy, you know, so I was like he's like thank you for doing that because then Blaha made a video Saying got kicked out of his gym because he talks about steroids on YouTube. That's not why you got kicked out of his gym

We got kicked out of his gym for being an asshole, you know what I mean? But he made his gym owner look bad and his gym owner got a lot of hate mail from people, you know and and people like rating his gym down on Google and shit because they believe Blahaw, you know. So anyway, you know, Blahaw made all these big statements about he like dressed up and spartan a tire and said he was going to war and like he said he was going to rate me and there's the screenshots of all this. He was going to rate me in court said he was gonna rate me and there's the screenshots of all this. He was gonna rate me in court Oh, that he was glad I sued him because now he's physically there for a second So so he didn't even fucking show up To court he didn't show up. Oh my god. We said and now how much now how much money are you into this because you now you to see this now you had fucking course I know fees are starting to pile up over six figures. Whoa, whoa god damn it. Wow

Nothing accomplished yet. No, you're that you know what though You know what though in the way it was worth it because now people see what a piece of shit is and he has like there are tons of people You know what and And he has like, there are tons of people. And you know what? And he actually parades around, like he thinks it's less than I actually thought he spent like 30,000 or whatever. What, I don't care.

It's just money. My reputation is way more important than me than the amount of money. And I'll make that back. Yeah. I'll make that back, doing something positive with my life. You are nothing. So this guy, he didn't show up.

He makes a video, say, why they neglected to tell me when the court, when the time was and where it was. So we posted an email of my attorneys emailing him the date, the location, their phone number in case he had any questions, as well as a fucking map with directions, and where to park and all this kind of stuff, right? Of course he's not going to show up because he can't admit he did anything wrong. And the judge, the judge literally put in the judgment that he has no one to blame but himself for what's going on. So he got a judgment, it was like 23,000 pounds

of an intermittent payment that he was supposed to pay me in term payment while they're waiting to assess damages. How many how many how many how many pounds have he received? Yeah, big zero. Yeah, that's a shitty part about stuff like this, you know? No, no, and what you find is like I tell people now, like avoid lawsuits law costs if you can't because somebody can just not pay you. Like if they're a pieces of shit, they just won't pay you know, so he

He but you know what he had to move back to the States because you know what Other countries when you're when you're not a resident you're not a citizen They don't like it when you move over there and start a bunch of shit, you know and found he found out that At least this is my, my best guess is he, my best guess is his wife actually probably got sick of his shit because he actually, he made a threat against my wife and son.

He, I have it screen-chotted and it said, well, because if you have a, if you're bankrupted because of a debt that you don't pay, they can actually deport you if you're not a citizen. And he said, well, if I am forced to be away from my wife, I will have to take his family out as revenge. Literally said that. And obviously, again, the father, the husband and me, I tell my attorneys like listen, we're going to call the police. This is some serious shit, you know.

So they call the police police went to him and his excuse was, oh, first it was, oh, somebody hacked my Facebook. And then when that didn't work, it was, oh, I let some other people log into my Facebook. And then months later, after him and his wife separated, it was, oh, my wife was trying to get back at me and she did it, right? Again, complete and utter failure to take responsibility for anything, right? So, and you know what, if the guy,

like originally, let's go back reverse, like reverse back to when the first thing happened, if he would have just been, well, you know what, I can't afford to pay anything. I have no money. Can I just do an apology? And I'm really sorry. Fine, dude, fine.

But he's incapable of doing that, right? What does it feel like being a father and having a child like and knowing what you've had to deal with with like social media is a grown-ass man to this level. That's why you don't see me post much stuff from my kids. Be honest with you.

It's gotta scare the fuck out of you, man. It scares me, man. I never put my kids on it. It's scary. It's scary. So, you know what? But, you know, oh, by the way, so finally, the last chapter of this, well, kind of, was he had to go because he was saying he didn't have any assets.

He had actually going into Clara's assets. Now he claimed he had like rights to oil stuff overseas and all the sky stuff. He acted like a big man on his Facebook page that I transferred money to overseas. Are you dumb? They have these things called forensic accountants who will find that. The dude has nothing. He has nothing. He lives in absolute squalor. I think right now he's living like in a trailer park with his girlfriend, grandmother, or something like that from what I understand. It's crazy to me how somebody of such little importance

and could gain a following. Can cause that much problem. Well, no, that's wrong thing. Could cause, I mean, just listening to you, I'm like, Jesus Christ, this must have been like a very stressful year of your life that was just like two years. Two years of your life.

I wish I could have let you know, look him back. But you know what? Part of it, it did bring awareness to him and it got, so Carmen, that's working out in the end. Does it ever make you though? Does it ever make you want to, because I know I know you take a lot of pride in being that guy that's not afraid to stand down and fucking put it out there. Does it ever make you kind of want to be a little more reserved because of that because of that because because that happened to you sure I mean that's my could have gone to my son's college account I mean like sure like I you know, but It's got to have conflict you got to have conflicting feelings with that you got it

You're a part of you want to be like fuck you. I want to take everybody on but there's gonna be part of you right now That's just like you know shit, dude Maybe I'm bringing some of this on to myself because you know what though if you don't if you want to avoid criticism or people disliking you Say nothing do nothing be nothing, you know don't do anything new Yeah, but don't you feel like some of you don't you feel like some of that's our ego talking to us feeling that we are right? Yeah, I'm I'm not gonna sit here and tell you don't have an ego. Absolutely. We all do we all do

I think that's part of yeah accepting that is is a big part absolutely, but you know what I think Yeah, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I don't have an ego. Absolutely. Well, we all do. We all do. I think that's part of accepting that is a big part. Absolutely, but you know what? At the end of the day, most people that go out and do stuff that actually has a legit impact on the world, there weren't people who stood in the shadows and were like, oh, I think I kind of want to do this. And in some way, they were very big personalities. Now, I might not be in like, in some way, they were very big personalities.

Now, I did not be like outspoken, but they were very big personalities in some way. You know what I mean? Oh, absolutely. So, you know, if this was the cost of doing business, it was the cost of doing business, you know? And at least I learned something from it. Well, I think you learned to direct it better.

Yeah, so I think I agree with you that. And you recognize it, okay, this is either like a sociopath or a psychopath or something, you know what I mean? And you just go, okay, whatever, they're gonna get theirs. And so when he went to the meeting where I had to clear his assets and basically clear he had nothing other than a disability check, which you can't touch. It's amazing by the way, how much the system protects

pieces of shit. Like, it's amazing how much it protects pieces of shit and not good people. He actually, he looks straight at the judge and he said, or he looks straight at my attorney apparently. I wasn't there, they had a transcript of everything and says, by the way, I have an insider in your firm. What?

That's so weird. Like, yeah, I have an insider in your firm. That's so weird. Like, I gotta give him some credit for some funny shit though. I wouldn't even think to say that. Like, he had a, it's like, it had to be something where he was a big man. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you had an insider in the firm, but you couldn't figure out what a fuck the court case was. You know, like, like, you couldn't figure out how to get there.

The insider neglected to mention where the actual, you know, judgment was located. A cheese. So fortunately, karma tends to work. I don't believe in karma in a spiritual sense. I believe in karma in a practical sense. How long has it been since you've served? So I kind of just, at a certain point, I just, like, we got to put what we all like to do is bankrupt him.

And it was going to cost me five more grand to bankrupt him by that time. I'm like, I'm going to, I just, like, we got to the point where all I could do is bankrupt him. And it was gonna cost me five more grand to bankrupt him. By that time, I'm like, I'm gonna stop and throw him. You're now 32, 33 years old. You've already been dealing with this for a year. Right, and I'm just like, you know what? I'm just the best revenge is massive success. And that's what I'm gonna do. So every time I'm out there, killing it,

every time, you know, when Avatar blows up, when all this other stuff blows up, when I have four companies that are successful and all this kind of stuff, you're gonna have to sit there in your fucking trailer and think about what assess pool your life is and what I did with mine. And you know what?

In 10 years, I don't even remember your name. Where do you think that competitive nature came from? When did it start? Do you remember it as a child? Yeah, probably young, you know, just,. Just people telling me I couldn't do stuff. People telling me I never be stuff. I came from a lower middle class family. I was the nerd in school.

I had goals and whatnot. And people telling me, oh, you never, I came from a small town in Indiana where people were like, you're just gonna go to college here and you're just gonna stay here. And this is your destiny. And I never believe that. So I think that was the competitive nature

was to prove people wrong. But the ending of the story is basically, well, as of now, people finally, because of course this guy, he cannot, I guess he gets into shooting guns as a hobby, but he can't just shoot guns. He has to be an ex-mursonary who did snatching grabs for the CIA as story-dopper

Right, so it's the kind of guy like if you tell somebody I Took a karate class one time. Well, yeah, well, I'm a seventh black belt Shaolin. You know what I mean a train was Steven Seagull Yeah, exactly so I mean there's videos out there all this if you if you want to find it you go to I mean, there's videos out there all this. If you want to find it, you go to YouTube, look up Shadow Man or Nadi Lifter or expose TV. These guys have all done videos showing like so, they've wouldn't dug up forum posts of this guy from back in the day where he claimed to be abducted

by aliens and that he was a male model. By the way, he, not a fucking male model. And he was, he was a resume. I know male models. He was a male model. He was a resume. I know male models. He was a male model. He was a novelist. Like he wrote science fiction novels. You know, he was a part reptilian,

like believed in like all this kind of like crazy, crazy shit. Don't you feel as an entrepreneur at your age and our age as long as we've been doing this now, so it doesn't it just pain you that you even have to disc. This is even. Did I even have the fucking deal with someone like this where I'm saying again, I'm not even like him. He's just what he is, but y'all following him,

you guys should have known better, you know? So fortunately now there's a whole group of people who they hate this guy because they see all the lies he's told I knew this guy was a liar from the first second I saw all this guy, because they see all the lies he's told. I knew this guy was a liar from the first second I saw all this stuff. It's a shame it took three years for people to figure it out. But now, I mean, he has to hide the subscriptions

on YouTube. He has to put out four videos a day with four ads in each single video. I mean, he doesn't even try anymore. There's a video of him that Shadow Man posted where he literally sneezes, wipe shit on his jeans and he doesn't even bother to edit it out. So it gives him five more seconds so he can hit that 10 minute mark

where he can put unlimited ads in his video. You know, like it's just, and he'll talk about anything, just ramble on and on and on. Do you feel like he's impacted your life negatively, that's so bad that you still find yourself like looking back over there on the- For a long time, yeah. For a long time, yeah.

Unfortunately, that was the downside. Was I fixated on that, right? Instead of, it took me too long to say, let's just focus on doing some positive shit. You know what I mean? But you know what, I figured it out. And it's something when I figured it out. And now, like what I did was people,

people my Paul got pissed at me because he's like Dude, you're getting reinvested, but it's just now. It's just me having fun Mm-hmm. Like I just poke the bear so I challenged him to a debate in an academic form and I said you can You know you can pick the topic and you can pick the moderator as long as it can be anybody in academia Which with your this is recent you've like a couple wants to go oh shit I said with your with your extensive research back We're still fucking with this guy with your extensive research Oh, this is this is recent. You've like a couple once ago. Oh shit. So with your with your extensive research back, we're still fucking with this guy with your extensive research background should be easy, right? And so first off, he

ignores it. And then when enough people come to his channel, really realizes he can't ignore it. He says, well, basically literally says that he doesn't want to come to the bait because he's certain that I'm going to have somebody try and take him out. Like actual assassins. Bro, everybody at that point, everybody knows what the guy's address is. Okay. Do you think if I was going to take you out? First off, I would have done it before I spent so much fucking money, right?

Second off, I would have been when he's right in front of you. Why would I do it when you're in the same room as me, dude? You know, so, so fine. I was like, all right, fine. I wanted to give him no ways to back out of this because this dude jump cuts, he's Googling stuff, like he just regurgitates everything online. If I get him in an debate about something that's actual science, he's going to get eviscerated. You know?

So, I said, I'll pay for your trip. You can pick whatever it is. So he comes back and here's his terms. I said, well, let's do a Skype debate. Skype debate. I can't crawl through the fiber optic cable and get you. And he says, okay, you have to pay me one month of my YouTube income. You have to, it has to be either about competitive shooting.

I know how you fucking debate that. So he picked a debate topic. Yeah, or drug testing. Or drug testing, which I know what he's trying to do with a drug testing. If I come across this knowledgeable about drug testing, then he can say I'm not nanny. You're not. You know how to get around. You're not fucking clever, blah, blah.

You think you're playing checkers when you're playing fucking tic-tac-toe. So he, and then he says, you know, one mother is too sorry. So he's done this in every debate he's ever done, like with low-blier, low-blier, and one of the bait him. And he came out and said, I have to be able to carry in the expo and have a firearm me at all times. And if anybody approaches me aggressively, I need to be have a signed release from the convention saying that I have the right to shoot them like literally fucking shit like this, right?

And so of course, like people can't meet those demands, right? So I was like, fine. Show me a proof of your income in terms of a tax statement or bank or bank statement. That was a mistake on my part because for reasons I'll elaborate on. Or, and he's, we wanted Lyle McDonnell as the moderator. I said academia, Jason, Lyle's not in academia.

Okay, somebody who actually like is has done actual research. Okay, sorry Lyle. Not sorry or Yeah, so somebody in academia and then I said okay and so I waited months went by nothing happened nothing happened Nothing happened and all the sudden over this past month he puts out a statement of his earnings, right? And it's like $4,200 is what he claims he earned a month, right? And fortunately, there's a bunch of online detectives. And they went, all it shows is a bulk transfer into his account, right? First off, it shows his balance before the transfer was $8.37. Sure. Winning! So he transfers in this.

And they figured out that based on what he had said previously about what he got paid in a month versus what his views were, that what he had done was combine multiple months, delayed payment and then transfer the bulk payment into his account. So it looked bigger. So you're not fucking clever, buddy. You're not clever. So, but now, you know what, now what's happening is he's been like clamoring for this debate. Now, even so I could pick the topic, I can pick the moderator, dude's hard up for money. So guess what, bud? Does he have any, I mean, you can just chill for a while.

What does he do? I mean, I gotta think he's gotta I mean I haven't watched any of his shit Now you make me want to watch no no no no There's a mirror channel. I think that puts off his videos back up So you don't actually have to watch his videos and give him clicks you give it to this person These people are savages. I never want to give them on my bad. Well, I I He claims by the way that there are a Muslim cyber my bad side. Well, I, I, I, he claims, by the way, that they're a, a, a Muslim cyber stalking ring. Oh, wow.

This group of people, well, I was just gonna say, I've heard there's like rings of these, these kids that this is literally what, oh, they're definitely cyber stalking them. They're definitely are. But he fucking deserves it. Wow. Wow.

So it's, you know, it's, I, you know, the best part of it is I had nothing to do with it. You know, like he'll say that I paid for this stuff. It's like, man, I seem to have a lot of money, you know. But, oh, actually what I really got him in trouble was, you know, all of this claims about being a mercenary. You don't get to be a mercenary without law enforcement or military experience. It doesn't happen. They don't take them. They don't. They don't take to be a mercenary without law enforcement or military experience. It doesn't happen.

They don't take them. They don't. They don't take a random person. No, they don't be like, oh, well, you can. I'm a black belt in town. Oh, I saw you shooting guns at that gun range. Gee, you really look like you knew what you were doing. Let's take you out and have Afghanistan do snatch and grabs,

you know, like, so veterans obviously started getting pissed off about this. And the blog popular military, very big blog ran a story on him about him being a stolen valor, you know. And when that story came out on Facebook, I was like, okay, shared and boosted for $100. You know what I mean? So, cuz fuck him. And so I said that on a Facebook live that I boosted for $100, you know what I mean? So, cuss fuck him. And so, I said that on a Facebook live that I boosted it. Well, he went and said, Layn Norton paid for a popular military to write this blog and all this kind of stuff.

And it's like, again, delusions of persecution. So, it's been a very interesting learning experience about the human nature and what some people are capable of in terms of how far they will take a lie. Like they will just continue doubling down on stuff. Like it really, I even remember we talked more stuff last time about him, his friend, like trying to vouch for him that he was in the powder wars and all this kind of stuff. Well, you know, it's easy. I wanted to ask you, is it, can we talk about everything we talked about last night? Was there anything that was off limits? Do we say anything that was off limits? We don't want to. Not really.

Okay, because there's something that you said, and you just gradually, and I thought it was a pretty cool because I have a handful of buddies that do this, and I think that it's really cool, and you can learn a lot, and I think a lot of people are afraid to talk about. And what's a blah, blah. A lot.

Is, you know, you you should have a life coach. Yeah. How long have you had a life coach for? About six months. Okay. So what have you talked about any of this stuff before? I'd love to hear what. I mentioned the life coach thing.

Oh, because 2016 was a tough year for me. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of personal stuff I went through. Yeah. And just, you know, I need somebody who's not like emotionally invested Right, to like tell me when I'm fucking up. Yeah, you know, and say hey, have you considered it like I made a lot of business mistakes too Like fortunately they haven't been fatal, you know But you know what you find out is everything affects everything, you know if you're struggling in one area

It's gonna start bleeding over another stuff. And having somebody to be like, kind of on my side, but no one to tell me when I'm fucking up that I respect. Because a lot of what's happened is some of my friends, like, you know, it's been tough because I never wanna give this impression, but some of my friends that felt like they couldn't talk to me

because they started out as clients or looking up to me in a certain way, and they felt like they couldn't talk to me. I would never want to give that impression, but I can understand how they got there. And so having somebody to give me the devil's advocate, to tell me this kind of stuff, I think is really important. It even allows you to be vulnerable.

Yeah, what? That's a very difficult thing to do when you're around people who maybe you were clients before or followed you. And I, you know, I'm probably guilty of, at a certain point, like, man, you know, when you read about stuff and about, if you get popular, if you get successful,

you're gonna deal with haters and sick offense, and you're gonna deal with people lying to you, and people betraying you, and stabbing you in the back and and all this kind of stuff and you go and people being fake and all this kind of stuff and I remember being a kid I'm like oh that would never it sounds really dramatic I don't think I don't fuck if it ain't the truth you know what I mean like it would ain't the damn truth and you know it can be hard to keep your head sometimes you know so having somebody in my corner to just you know not not just tell me you know, it can be hard to keep your head sometimes, you know. So having somebody in my corner, uh, to just, you know, not, not just tell me,

you know, what I'm doing is the right thing to tell me, hey, that wasn't the right thing. You shouldn't, you shouldn't know that different, you know, you know, someone, big deal. Someone told us that a while ago, they said, uh, there's going to be a lot of people telling you you're doing awesome. But what are you going to do when you're doing shitty and the people that tell you, that you're not doing good? That's what you need to sometimes pay attention to. Because see, you know, it's easy to be around people

who admire what you do and think everything you do is great and what about putting yourself around those people who are gonna be honest with you? Takes a lot of self-awareness to be able to do that. Yeah, well, one of the quotes I like out there is greatness comes not what everything goes right for you, but when you're truly tested, you know, and the one thing that's kind of kept me,

my head on straight, well, you can argue, it hasn't been on straight, but it's kind of kept me going forward, is that whenever in my life I've been like really frustrated and wanted to quit, or felt just completely exasperated, it almost seems like invariablyably right after that's where there was a breakthrough, you know. Very, I've said it got true, very true.

It's like the universe, again, I don't want to sound spiritual, but it's like the universe is going to test you to your breaking point and then it's going to let you go, you know, and it's starting to happen. Like January, December was kind of the lowest months and Just kind of grinded through it kept going and now things are starting to kick ass, you know Like things are starting to really kick ass again. Excellent. And you know like it would be easy to just be like Fuck this all, you know, just let's just go back to let's just kind of retreat back to you know coaching

And let's stop working with some of this stuff because we had a lot of setbacks with avatar You know avatar hit a huge ballstone the other day like we're really kicking ass But man, we had so much frustration with that thing So many failures with it. I mean every single like we had a lot of infighting in our company at a certain point because we were just so frustrated And now it's just completely kicking ass. You know, because we took all that negativity that we had, no, that hurt we had about fuck you, social issues marketing and fuck you type two designs in Tampa, Florida. Both of you pieces of shit. We're not gonna say any names, but I don't care. They're not gonna,

we have all the evidence if they, you know, the thing about people is, oh, we're about somebody's, those who live in glass houses don't throw stones. You don't want to go to court, because I've got all the dirt, right? So in case of type two, possibly criminal charges due to fraud. So they just, you know, but we sat around it. And at a certain point, these were rubbed developers we paid to develop things for us and just completely literally scoot us, you know, just didn't do the work. And you know, come to find out that even if we sued some of these people,

the chance that we collect is highly unlikely. So again, it's like, and we had this discussion, like do we spend this time, this energy on vengeance? Or do we say, let's double down, let's make this thing crush it, and then they're gonna be bankrupt or whatever it is. And we're going to be kicking ass and floating on cloud nine. Let's do that.

Let's stop. Let's stop throwing good money after that. And you know what? I might not have had that perspective if I hadn't been through the whole Jason Blahauer deal, you know? And so maybe it was a blessing in disguise. You know, maybe that, maybe that large amount of money I spent saved me an even greater amount of money

We want to spend in this whole deal because you can get caught up in the whole vengeance thing Well, maybe you find maybe you find people that you have Adversity with and you thrive off of that Maybe you attract it in a sense because you know you do better because it pushes you in those limits You were thought like that. Well listen listen, like I said, I said to Mark and Katie, Mark is our CEO, and Katie is our, her title is Editor-in-Chief, but really, she's more like a co-chief scientific officer with me.

She's done just as much or more on the data calculations and the algorithm that I have. So she's completely in a growth part of this, Katie Coles. I have so she's just completely in a growth part of this kitty calls and I said why The chance we're gonna collect is so small like The best of revenge is if we just kill it. It's got and change the world do what we can't do anyway

Fuck them. Let's go do what we came to do You know one of the things I had to kind of tell them was like, yeah, this sucked. We lost a lot of money and we feel stupid and used. But this would have actually crushed most companies, most startups. And we're actually have enough members and we're doing well enough that our cash flow is still okay.

So let's get them. That's a common trait amongst winners. When you talk to anybody, when you talk to anybody who's really done anything big and you talk about when they've had to encounter a major challenge, they look back at it like it was a good thing. That was the pivotal moment. Every, every, every time. Every company that changed the world, almost without exception, Apple, Microsoft,

all the, you read the stories, huge in fighting and problems and setbacks and all, look at Apple, Apple was dead in the water. Yeah. In the like early 90s, midnight, Apple was dead in the water. Yeah. In the like early 90s midnight they were dead in the water. And then the iPod came out and then the iPhone. You're, it would have been so easy for them to quit. They just say, you know what, that's it.

Steve Jobs to quit and say, that's it. We're done. We only hired him. Yeah. And they fired him. I was on company, right? Well, and that come back, the iPod was him. We're gonna come back. If anybodyod was him when he comes back.

If anybody, if anybody had a right to say, you know what, how to good run? Yeah. It would have been him. But an Angela Duckworth, Professor Angela Duckworth, she's, she's does a lot of research on what makes on the traits of successful people. And the major thing she found was,

from lack of better term, grit, that people, they just grind through it, that it's not, talent makes a difference, all this stuff makes a difference. And one of the things I really liked that she said was, it's easy to be intense about something for a short period of time. Wait, anybody can do that, right?

Intense for a short period of time. The people who make a huge difference and accomplish big goals are people who have stamina, not just intensity, but stamina. When they say success as a marathon on a sprint, I mean, that is the damn truth for sure. You know, you're, you, and most people, they go out and they say, you know, my favorite motivational speakers loves Brown. And he says, most people, they try something and it doesn't work the first time. And they go, oh, well, I tried some things.

They didn't work out. Show me somebody who tried consistently, didn't quit for 20 years, and it didn't have it work out in some way. Even if it doesn't work out the way you thought it was gonna work out, by not quitting, by putting the work in, you develop such fortitude and character that some other opportunity usually presents itself, right? Like, I got into this, I wanted to make, you know, I wanted to be a natural bodybuilder

and make money doing that. I don't make money doing natural bodybuilding shows now, but what I found was something better. I found something better better. I found something better, you know, and, but if I hadn't had that initial drive to do this stuff, it would have not worked. It had been so easy. I mean, there was so many, so many things people told me would never work out, right? You can't be an natural bodybuilder or make money. You can't be an ally coach and be successful. You can't do a PhD and also be competitive. You can't start, you know, flexible dieting is bullshit.

It will never work in high level competitors and all this kind of stuff. And I'm not going to sit here and say that people's words never have an effect on me. Of course they do. But I trust this. I trust my inner voice way more than anything else. And so at the end of the day, I'll listen to what you have to say, I'll listen to what you have to say, and I'll take that in. But if this in here tells me something, I don't give a damn what you have to say about what I'm going to do. What's the biggest thing that you've learned from your

life coach so far? I mean, six months, you've had a chance to express everything you're going through and get good feedback. What do you think has been the biggest growth thing, you've had a chance to express everything you're going through and get good feedback. What do you think has been the biggest growth thing that you've gone through with that? Facing my own shortcomings as a person. What do you mean, like beating yourself up? If you do things that turn out the way you expect to. Just that there's certain things that I wasn't the good guy in. You know what I mean?

Like things I fucked up, right? And acknowledging those, but also that doesn't make you a bad person. So I actually asked her this. I said, her name's Patty Evans. I said, what are you defined as a bad person? She said, somebody who derives pleasure from hurting other people. I said, well, you define as a bad person? She said, somebody who derives pleasure from hurting other people.

I said, well, that's definitely not me. I know that. And she's like, no, you're a good person. She goes, most people are good people trying to do the best they can, but relationships are complex, whether it comes to business, friendships, romantic, and stuff gets fucked up sometimes, you know what I mean?

But if you come from the perspective of most people are good people, business, friendships, romantic, and stuff gets fucked up sometimes. You know what I mean? But if you come from the perspective of most people are good people, trying to do the best they can. If you come from that perspective, usually it gives you a lot more empathy. And you can, if you have disagreements with people, you can work them out a little bit better when you say, okay, you know what? Maybe I did something that triggered them a certain way. You I can present it in a better way. And I think the other trade

about successful people is, and she told me this, whenever I had things go wrong, people who don't succeed usually do a lot of this shit. Their point fingers, their, everybody else. Windows and mirrors. Right. If something went wrong, it was about somebody screwed them over. It was, you know, life's not fair. They're unlucky at this. And let me tell you something. As an adult, as an adult, yes, bad stuff can happen to you. But on the whole, if your life sucks over a long period of time, the common denominator

in your life is you. Okay. So guess who you need to be pointing the finger out to make a change, right? If the, if the earth revolves around the sun enough times, maybe the earth revolves around the sun and the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, right? So if you're always having fucked up relationships or you know like I talked about that like when I was in high school all these you know easy definition is girls say I really like a nice guy and they date assholes all the time.

It's like, I wonder why I can't find a nice guy. They end up dating Adam. Or they, or they're like, you know, these Instagram girls are like, I don't understand why I can't find a nice guy and all the twins put up ash shots and talk about, you know, BDSM and shit. And it's like, so I'm 23 fine.

Well, yeah. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, Jesus, hashtag list, you know, like, Jesus loves my booty. Yeah, so I mean, listen, you know, and again, like I'm a libertarian, so if that's how you want to present yourself, I'm not mad at you. But you have to understand how that's going to be perceived by a certain number of people, right?

Of course. So if you're, if you've been doing things a certain way and getting a certain result, maybe the rest of the world isn't the problem, maybe you're the problem. I learned a long time ago, Windows and Mears, when shit goes wrong, look in the mirror, when things are going right, look out the window. When things are going awesome, look at the people around you,

when shit's going bad, look at yourself and see what you can do. Absolutely. And yeah, I think that's hard to do you know, it's hard to put a mirror on ourselves Because a lot of times look what we're doing put a mirror ourselves. We saw our insecurities Well, this is why I come with age man. So I I'm glad you were okay with me going this route I wouldn't sure if you were gonna talk about it or not because I think Not enough of this gets talked about and you know you talk about the behind the scenes the grinding the failing

Well, not enough gets talked about when people get to a status about. And you know, you talk about the behind the scenes, the grinding, the failing. Well, not enough gets talked about when people get to a status like yourself or you know, are well known. A lot of people look up too and they think our lives are perfect. That we don't have struggles and we don't question our own thoughts

and our own actions. And so to hear someone like you share that and go through that, I think that's an important message that people should hear. I tell you what, man, hearing you talk like this has been awesome. That's an absolute great time talking to you. Thank you. Absolutely great time talk. I love this kind of stuff. At the end of the day, when it comes to fitness, business, whatever, like I said, the only lesson you learned from lifting weights was to get a good physique or to get strong, you fucked up. You fucked up. You know, like you can learn so much more about yourself from lifting

weights or running or anything, anything that requires discipline, tenacity and perseverance, you know, hard work. If you can't, why aren't you applying that to other aspects of your life, you know? And one of the things I, you know, and things get tough. And, you know, and one of the things I you know and things get tough and You guys know Marcus Luttrell loan survivor favorite one of my favorite books bro for sure awesome, so I actually Huge honor got invited to play at his celebrity softball game in 2015 and We're not there met him and his wife and met a lot of cool people and I got invited on the Patriot tour afterwards, which was him, David Goggins and some other people, Taya Kyle actually. And that was awesome. And one of the things he said that really resonated with me. And I think a lot of people, they get overwhelmed by standing at the bottom of the mountain and looking up to the top of the mountain of where they want to go, that big goal, right? And thinking there's no way I

can make that. Whereas they should be focusing on what's the next notch in the mountain? I need to grab next time and he said and you know if you read the book, don't watch, I mean watch the movie but read the fucking book like everything he went through. Oh, the Loans survivor book is 10 times better than the movie. There's broke his back in multiple places. Yeah. Bit is, like had, you know, shrapnel sticking out of his legs, shot multiple times, crawled, you know, all these, like several miles, you know,

and he said at the Patriot Tournament something that really stuck with me said, I break down hard times into our segments because there's nothing you can do to me inside now or that's gonna break me. Excellent, That's a great that's a great quote to end on. And so I just I say you know what? If things get shitty, things get hard. I'm just gonna focus on this hour. I love it. I love it. I love it. Lane we gotta have you come back on man. We just recorded like a four hour four hour marathon podcasting. I believe that was a record. It's been a blast brother.

Thank you man. We appreciate you having you come on. Thank you for listening to MindPump. a The RGB Superbumble includes maps on a ballad, maps performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbumble is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money back guarantee, and you can get it now,

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