Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 478: Justin Wren- The Big Pygmy- From the MMA to the Congo

Episode Date: March 23, 2017

In this episode, Sal, Adam & Justin interview Justin Wren, MMA fighter and humanitarian. Justin has a fascinating story of being bullied, becoming a professional fighter and then finding his mission to help the Pygmies in the Congo. Justin is inviting you to help solve the world's water crisis. Many people around the world lack the most basic of human needs, clean drinking water. Make a donation at www.water4.org/watermark. ALSO check out Justin's video on Mind Pump TV (YouTube). Get our newest program, Kettlebells 4 Aesthetics (KB4A), which provides full expert workout programming to sculpt and shape your body using kettlebells. Only $7 at www.mindpumpmedia.com! Get MAPS Prime, MAPS Anywhere, MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, MAPS Aesthetic, the Butt Builder Blueprint, the Sexy Athlete Mod AND KB4A (The MAPS Super Bundle) packaged together at a substantial DISCOUNT at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Make EVERY workout better with MAPS Prime, the only pre-workout you need… it is now available at mindpumpmedia.com Have Sal, Adam & Justin personally train you via video instruction on our YouTube channel, Mind Pump TV. Be sure to Subscribe for updates. Get your Kimera Koffee, Mind Pump's first official sponsor, at www.kimerakoffee.com, code "mindpump" for 10% off! Add to the incredible brain enhancing effect of Kimera Koffee with www.brain.fm/mindpump 10 Free sessions! Music for the brain for incredible focus, sleep and naps! Please subscribe, rate and review this show! Each week our favorite reviewers are announced on the show and sent Mind Pump T-shirts! Justin’s super hero origin story (9:53) When did he start his MMA journey / Start to gain confidence in himself (18:37) What was his motivation early on? Brought on by anger/being bullied as a child? (23:23) Justin talks about his addiction to opiates / Hitting rock bottom (27:20) Justin talks about his foundation - Fight for the Forgotten / His vision story (39:10) World Water Crisis / Epidemic in the Congo / Working hand in hand with the slave masters (1:02:41) Progress the foundation has made / Future / World Water Day (1:18:55) What is it like working with the local governments? / Difficulties? (1:21:28) What dangerous situations has he been involved in? / Sicknesses he has had? (1:25:41) How has being to the Congo changed his relationships? Become more mindful? Grown from this experience? (1:37:31) His return back to MMA and his final thoughts (1:48:00) Related Links/Products Mentioned Justin Wren – Twitter @TheBigPygmy UFC Fight for the Forgotten (website-MAKE A DONATION) Fight for the Forgotten (audiobook) When Helping Hurts – Steve Corbett (book) Poverty Inc. (Amazon Video) Kids seeing Justin for first time (white guy!) Minimalism (Amazon Video) Eco Survivor - http://amzn.to/2mSuraV People Mentioned: Jordan Harbinger - IG @TheArtofCharm Brendan Schaub –IG @BrendanSchaub Bryan Callen –IG @BryanCallen Joe Rogan –IG @joerogan Dan Henderson Randy Couture Royce Gracie Bruce Lee Trevor Whittman – Twitter @TrevorWhittman Caleb Bislow

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, omite, om with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. I know you're happy, dude. Wait, what song? Wait, I can't feel it. I can't feel the rain, I can't feel the rain. Justin does a little bit of the elevator. I said this before, but when Adam sings, it sounds like a guy who sucks at singing,

who's trying to sound bad. You know what I mean? It sounds like you're doing on purpose. Well, you're already sucks, who's trying to sell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. You're close there. I mean, I'm a guy who's really sucks at it.

Who's trying to sound really good, but this just gets worse. It just, okay, do that again, but try to sound worse. I want to see if it'll help try to sound good. Yeah, yeah ready go Wait, what is that? Try to sound worse. Oh sound worse I can't feel the rain They're both on par it was on pause. Yeah, it's close. Yeah, pretty You can't sound worse. You know why? I I don't think you can't. I don't have. I don't have.

I don't have. I don't have. It just comes out. I don't have like a barometer of like better or worse. It's just however come. Or there's a. Well, I think or there's like a like a. I think I think I'd come from my stomach, right? Like, I can't feel the rain. Wow. No, that just got weird. No, it is. I think that wasn't even normal. I think there's a like. I can't pitch it with a girl Wow, you know, like I'm getting better. I feel like yeah, wow

I think I should just stop I think there's like a like a physics. There's a limit as to how bad it can get and then you're hitting it You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like the speed of light like there's no way you can get worse So even if you try to sound worse, you're just at the same bottom. You know what I'm saying? It's the speed of light, button, reverse for bad singing. I'm still in search. You lost music science.

I get it right. Yeah, you just made some shit up. You know, I believe that you're, whether you're, you're a God believer or not, I feel like we all have like these gifts, right? I just, you know, I'm 35, still searching for mine. And it's not, it's, it wasn't athletics, it wasn't singing.

Maybe that's your gift. Yeah. Maybe your gift is knowing that you have one. I'm dyslexic, I can't, I can't, I can't fucking put a sentence together. Like, I don't know what, I don't know what my strength is. Yeah, I'm dyslexic. I used to be attractive, but as, I'm aging here, I'm losing my hair and- It's a diminishing value. Yeah, yeah. So I believe, I believe-

Yeah, latched on to something else. It's gonna come though soon. I disagree. You disagree? Yeah, with what? You're unattractive, um, comment. Oh, you think so? Yeah, so I've known you now for, personally,

for about two little over two years. And you're a slightly more attractive today than you were the first time I met you. This could you like, you like, you like my handlebar most actually, as well. Oh, you always wanted to grow one of those. And I did it. It could be, it could be, I don't know, I can't put my finger on it. Did any of you guys, did you any of you guys one of those and I did it. It could be could be I don't know

I can't put my finger on it. Did any of you guys did you need you guys to try it? Did any guys tune into hell on wheels yet? Have you guys watched the show yet? Oh, man? Not dude. You guys not Netflix and chill. This is just this goes back to why I'm trying to know you guys No, I do have fucking old. He keep up with you. No, this the fact that you guys don't know any of these Netflix shows Oh, we're old. That's what is yeah, we're old and out of style You know what it is Justin? What it's it's he's got time to watch Netflix. I'm saying Like I have five minutes I'm like everywhere. Yeah, I'm like trying to like take those precious moments and like have a conversation and then pass out

Yeah, that's a man. This is why you know, I'm like Like do you have to be real or do we have kids? I'm totally into this. Adam's like, he looks at a schedule. He's like, man, okay, let's see, I did hella work. I read three books. Powered it out. I did some yoga, I had some sex.

I still have five hours left to watch Netflix and Jill. You know what? Hey, you know, speaking of kids, I don't have any. But I got an inbox from somebody who wrote like a really nice message in regards to you two knuckleheads talking about your kids. And this is why I'm always pushing you guys to share more. He's a 24 year old parent and he said it was extremely inspiring to hear you guys talk and share about your relationship with your kids and the things that you guys are continuing to learn and grow from because

It's really valuable advice man, and you guys I wish and I hope that we you guys share more of that with people because I Always get I don't know if you guys get feedback. Maybe people don't tell you but people tell me all the time I don't know why they tell me I'm the one with no fucking kids weird. They should just tell me I get feedback But it's it's hard for me to listen but it's hard for me to listen to. It's hard for me to listen to that episode. Oh, really? Yeah, because it gets real deep, you know? And then when I hear it, I'm like, ah,

I don't wanna hear that, you know? Cause then it kinda hits me. Well, I haven't been as emotional on any podcast we have done. Literally, we've done almost 500 podcasts. The first time ever did I literally like, almost cry like three different times. And that was in this episode that's coming up. With Justin Ren.

Justin Ren. Oh man. I was right there with you dude. One of the most impactful podcast that we did. Totally different. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose some people that can't get in touch with that side. I don't think so at all. I think people are gonna, I mean,

you've got this big, you have to be a piece of shit to not it. You've got a big, you know, this big MMA fighter, this just, you know, brutal fighter who has his own personal battles. And, you know, and you'll hear in the upcoming episode here, but he goes to the Congo and decides to become the voice for a people over there, the pigmies, and he talks about some of the stuff

that he saw and what they're doing to help them. And when you meet this guy, very rarely have I ever met someone where I just, you feel there, like they're just this gentle, empathetic, wonderful human being. And you get that feeling immediately when you meet this guy. Again, he's this big guy. It could be very intimidating. He's got the collar flower ear because he was a wrestler

and then MMA fighter. And you just want to fucking hug the guy. Well, his story, his story literally, which I, you know, I was familiar with, you know, what he's doing over there, but I wasn't familiar from where he came from, which to me, that was like, that's what it. Well, that ties it all in.

I mean, it makes it so personal. It makes it like, you understand further his purpose and like how he got to that purpose. And it just, it sort of establishes this timeline and really connects you to the process of like, what it all means and why it was so impactful for him. I hope I didn't, man, I got impacted by it.

I hope I didn't weird him out because I must have given him like six man hugs. Oh, I did too. I feel like every, I feel like every, I honestly wanted to be like a backpack. I just wanted to like wrap myself around. Every time we, every time we like pause and conversation, I feel like I just need to hug you right now.

I wanna, I wanna see. I wanted to hug you right now. I wanna make a face. I wanna see. I wanted to give him some nice, you know, cheek kisses. I wanted it because. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Yeah, on the cheek. On the cheek, but just to follow it.

Well, he's just such a, he's such a, he's just wanna nuzzle up in his beard. He's just such a good man, like a good, nah, he is. He's a good man. Well, what he's doing, and you know what, I don't know about you guys, but after we were done, man, I went home and I really, really it impacted me so strongly I really started to think about all the stuff that I'm doing

Yeah, and what I should be doing or what I you know what my what I think my purposes and brother your purpose is what you do Here's the deal. Yeah, Justin the people that are gonna listen to this episode You know and if it if it impacts you in any way, I urge you to go to his fight for the forgotten.org page, more his water for.org, which is the number four, and do a donation. And if you don't have the means to do that, then where you can help is by sharing this. I have never asked you guys to share a podcast or share an episode. I know it's hard sometimes to share a podcast

because it's not user friendly, but this will also be up on our YouTube channel. So when it goes up on there, you can share it from there. On Mind Pump Radio, it's a different YouTube channel. Yeah, Mind Pump Radio, you can find it. I urge you to share this with as many people as you possibly can. This message needs to get out to more people. He's, I know he's touring over to Fire and the Kid and he goes over to Joe Rogan. He just did our buddy Jordan, Arda Charms.

So he's definitely getting his message out there. And if, if, if our MP family can help out and spread the word, spread this podcast, he's a, he's a, he's a very brave individual. We need more people like him in the world. But, but what we can do is support people like him because they're so rare. Oh, you can also find him on his Instagram page at the big pygmy.

So without any further ado, here we are talking to Justin Ren. You know, when two men with a beard interact each other, the guy with the more powerful, but you have to yield to them. Yeah, you do. It's like, it's like theams, you know who has the biggest horns

Hey, how do you like that the big top beard man? How do you like that right to that world? That stuff's awesome, right? Man, I like it a lot right? We just we actually just met with the creative nice Sheen go last week and then uh, probably when this releases will probably be official with them and that really really Like the product they're putting out there, which means I got to grow my beard back Yeah, you can just put you can just put it on your shave. I just shaved that yeah I got a video I'm shooting today so yeah this guy's doing a kiss kickstarter for his axon stick that drops coming up real soon here. Put Matt Justin Matt so excited to have you in the house right now you got quite the lineup right now you're hopping on some podcast you just did you just get done with

one or were you heading next. Yeah just got done with Art of Charm. Jordan. Yeah, with Jordan. He's the best. He's our buddy. Yeah, you're doing an awesome, awesome guy. Very cool guy. Very glad to know him.

And yeah, we'll be going on the fighter in the kid with Brin and Chob and Brian Callan. Very cool. And then as the next day, I'll go on Joe Rogan Show again. They'll be my fifth time on there. And he's just so awesome in. I'll show you. That's where I discovered you.

Yeah, I listened to your guys' interview and got into what you're up to and all that stuff and yeah, man. Great, great stuff you're up to. Yeah, if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit of just your story, it starts with you becoming a fighter and fighting professionally and then it takes a very amazing turn. And, you know, for some of the stuff you're doing now, which I have a tough time watching some of your videos and not getting emotional.

I really, I'm not a religious person, but I'm like, I would say you're doing God's work. But tell us, let's start with your story first. How did you get into MMA? How did that all, you told us earlier you were into wrestling and... Yeah, and what got me into wrestling was basically I had zero, absolutely zero self confidence, self esteem, self worth. I grew up getting very heavily bullied.

Oh wow. And you're a massive dude, huh? Yeah, now it wasn't even possible. It wasn't even possible. Oh, you were small. This was just like pre-puberty type of deal. Yes, it was that. And it was, I don small. Yeah, this was just like pre puberty type of deal. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. And it was, I don't know, man, I was, I had transferred

into the school at third grade and gotten a fight the first day of school, but I didn't swing. I didn't do anything. I got jumped on by the kid. He's actually in prison right now. Oh shit. Holding up a convenience store. But we know who won that.

Right. Right. And no, he, uh, And then him and his friends, and they just bullied me from third grade through all the way through eighth grade. And I was just a target, and I didn't stand up for myself, I didn't fight back.

I was invited to, or actually I asked my favorite, Crush and Elementary School, sixth grade, asked Jessica to the homecoming. And we have this crazy, absolutely crazy tradition in Texas, but it's homecoming mums. Have you guys ever seen those? No, no, no. They're these massive, just absolutely massive fake flowers or corsages.

And they actually have actual- sized teddy bears on them. What? They have these streamers and bells and whistles. No joke and the kids spend their whole allowance on this thing to give to their date to home company. Oh my god. You ever seen that? No.

Wow, it's a Texas thing. It's a Texas thing. It's only there. Everything's bigger and better in Texas, right? It's a Texas thing. And it sees an orc. Orc. Whatever. Right. It's around homecoming.

And there's people that that's all they do for their living is year round, they're getting ready for homecoming because they're making these homecoming moms. And now are ridiculous where girls are having where harnesses to get these. Oh my God. And you can barely see the girl behind the mom. Oh, I'm not kidding.

It's ridiculous. And I spent my whole allowance on a homecoming mom, took Jessica, got the streamer that said Justin and Jessica on it, got to the high school stands, worth a high school game. And actually, this is seventh grade and that's sixth grade. And so it's first year middle school. And yeah, I take her. I'm excited. And one of the notorious bullies came up. His name was Justin as well. And he walked up and everyone turned at half time. He came up to Jessica, put his arm out. She put her arm around his.

He grabbed the streamer that said Justin and Jessica and basically said, Hey, thanks for buying this for her. And I'm like, what? Just kind of confused. And the whole school's turned around looking at me. And he's like, yeah, you didn't think she was actually going to come with you, did you? Oh, wow. And just kind of sort of walking around with her. And everyone laughed, I got laughed out of there, you know, kind of ran down the stadium

crying or whatever. Oh, wow. And then the next year it got even worse. Oh, it hurts my soul. Yeah, so the next year was even worse. And that's the year I found the UFC though. I mean, it was probably three weeks after, well, Jennifer was my other middle school crush, and she crushed me when I got to her birthday party. And it was a costume contest.

And so everyone was dressing up, everyone was talking about what they were going to wear. I really liked her. So I knew she loved transformers and that her dad worked for Dr. Pepper. And so being a country kid and having some duct tape, I made myself into a Dr. Pepper transformer from head to toe. Epic.

Yeah, brilliant. I mean, like the 12 packs on my arms and making a chest plate and having a sword in one hand and a birthday present in the other. Yeah. And got to the house and went inside and her grandmother said that she was going to love it. I get to the backyard, open the door, and we just met with some cameras flashing and fingers pointing and or just like one or two flashes. And yeah, Jennifer was there saying like,

can't believe we thought you're good enough to come to my party. Oh wow. That same guy Justin was the one that, I don't know why he had it out for me, but he just did and he was the one that organized the whole thing, came up with the idea. Wow.

One of his friends said you're worthless and he said you should just kill yourself. And so at 13 years old, that was like a huge battle where I went into the spiraling depression, hated myself, believed I was worthless. And I don't know if, I don't know why I got so deep into this so quick with the bullying part. No, I love it because you know what,

talk about history. We talk a lot about how, God, we just did an episode recently about childhood and how much this really shapes who we are. I mean, it's something that makes you the man you are, so I'm really interested to hear how this changed you for good. Yeah, well, I guess how it changed me for good, just a little foreshadowing, I guess, is it made me a much more compassionate person, I believe. Like, whenever, I mean, I sat at the lunch table by myself, pelting the back of the head with chocolate milk spit wads. I and then now you know seeing people when they're down and out or when they feel alone you know I try to reach out try to do something because that's what I

needed that's what I wanted and what that's what my wrestling coach is actually did for me and I guess three weeks after that that party I went to this flea market it's called Trader's Village is huge in Texas and I went to this flea market. It's called Trader's Village, which is huge in Texas. I went out and I was going to buy a BB gun, but on the walk I found a used VHS tape shop and stopped in there and I found UFC 2 through 9. I bought that. That's what I wanted to get. I looked at the cover and I what what I guess first or initially drew me to it was I loved watching like martial arts movies and blood sport and all this different stuff Classic. Yeah

Exactly, but whenever I looked at it, I just thought these guys these guys don't get bullied These guys Know how to stand up for themselves Or just look like you guys look and no one's probably just going to come up and try to pick a fight or just pick on you. So I was drawn to that, but then deeper what kept me intrigued was the human chess match of it, just how it combined the Olympic sports of wrestling and judo and boxing and then this new thing called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and well, there's guys that are from Sumo trying

it out and I mean just all this craziness and uh Yeah, I I bought up those nine and my parents are pretty conservative and I had the the VHS tapes under my bed I had hide them my dad found me thought I was a stack of porn Fighting it might have been worse. I think he goes what he said, because he took it to my mom. He's going to try this one day, and I was like, no, I won't. But just in the back of my mind, I was like, that's my dream. Yeah. Yeah.

At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day.

At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. At the end of the day. several guys, but there was like Dan Henderson, who's just retired, but he's been fighting forever. Rainy Couture, there was Don Fry at that time. There was...

Oh, you loved the American wrestler. Yeah, I did, because that was something that I saw around, like, well, I noticed early on, well, obviously, hoist was incredible. So that was really, really cool, but I didn't know where I could get Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There's nowhere like that at that time. But then there was this wave of wrestlers that were coming in and they were just able to dominate. If a guy was a stand-up guy, they could take him to the ground. He no longer could use his punches. If the guy was a hoist

gracy and he was great on the ground, they could keep it on their feet and outbox the guy, or just grind on him and pound on him. And so I love that like the smashing machine Mark Curve. I remember that documentary. Yeah, isn't that crazy? That was brutal. Yeah, brutal. Um, brutal to see what what and I I love that documentary in, uh, in high school. And then he had a lot of, uh, addictions to opiates and everything else and I fell right into that too. Did you really? Yeah, big time for six years. And so yeah, anyways, I'm kind of going all over the place, but that's where I found my dream of fighting though, is like getting bullied growing up that way,

being the last kid in America, I think, with a chilly bull hair. So when did you actually start, so at this age right now you're seeing it, it's kind of more of fantasy or a dream. When did you start taking action and start wrestling, start, when did that start happening? Yeah, so at 15 years old, I got transferred out of the schools that I was at because of the bullying got so bad, even freshman year was there and

my parents decided, you know, hey, we need to take them out of this school and public school Let's try to put them in a private school and it has good athletics. He could try to focus on something and put him in a private school and it has good athletics. He could try to focus on something. And they were the state championship football team, which my dad loved football. And he was like, get in there, maybe you can go to college playing football. But whenever I went there, they had wrestling. And I already started wrestling a year, but I was the only kid at my high school that was doing it, because it wasn't very big in Texas. But the coaches at Bishop Lynch High School were Kinney Monday and Kendall Cross, which they're both Olympic gold medalist.

Kenny just coached me in my last few fights. I didn't really. Yeah, it's just so cool that he was there. And learning from him, I mean, after one year of wrestling, but then learning from him, you don't develop very many bad habits whenever he's your coach and your training partner. He just doesn't allow you. So you do the wrong thing. So you get good quick and after a couple of years wrestling with him I was a national champ.

Oh wow. Yeah, so he just told me set my goals high, write them down, put them somewhere you can see him. And since that was my my outlet, that was the thing that I had. The only thing that I really felt was building up that self-esteem or self-worth, self-confidence. So you feel very empowered from? Oh, without a doubt. Do you remember, so do you remember that transition of starting to feel empowered and feeling good about yourself? I could imagine from what you started this off with,

like how much that wore on you as a chock, especially that age man, that age is so rough for kids. I actually took a year out of school from being bullied. It was in my eighth grade year. I was a kid who moved to from California to Colorado and Colorado. They were calling me all kinds of racist names and throwing snowballs at me.

And I used to always get along with people and it was just really rough for me. And I had to get homeschooled. And I remember how impressionable that was. At what point did you feel like the shift? Like you got a hold of it and started to use it to like motivate you and when it when do you remember that transition? Man, I know it sounds goofy, but I think there was a transition whenever I first found those tapes

You have see tapes like the if these guys could do it and I'm young right now if I start now So I was already trying to wrestle around with the very few friends that I had like two guys, Sam and Max or brothers and we would start wrestling around at their house because that's the only place we could watch the UFC tapes. And I just was like, man, I might be able to do this. And then once I had those coaches and then whenever the kids at school started noticing the coaches coming to lunch and coming to check in on me.

And then the team that I was with, they had all wrestled in there kind of kids' program. So they had been wrestling their whole lives under these coaches, but then I came in and I was just coachable. I listened, I wanted to learn. And whenever that happened, I, in the first year and a half of wrestling that I wrestled,

I won one match by one point. And so I wasn't very good, but then whenever I got underneath these coaches and they believed in me, it started having me believe in myself. They're like, hey, you're a good kid, you've had a tough time, but just stick with it, you know, and once I started, I remember there was this one tournament where I went from the zero matches,

or sorry, one match that I won by one point. Then I went in there and they looked, you're hesitating, you're a little timid out there on the mat. And yeah, you're going against guys, I have a lot more experience and we're in up in Oklahoma where these kids wrestled all the time. And they're like, hey, just get on the mat and just try it.

You know, they were beating in one move, which is that lateral drop, throw. And they were just pounding that in me. You know, you need one move. And let's do that move a thousand times. I think you'd see even a Bruce Lee quote, I'm going to slaughter it. You know, have one move that you do a thousand or ten thousand times. Yeah, I fear the man that knows what that practices a punch a thousand times versus the man who practices a thousand punches one time One time yeah absolutely So they were saying hey just be basic but be aggressive get out there and just just do your thing Just let it go and at least if you tried

You know you weren't hesitant you weren't timid if they beat you because they were better than that's okay But but don't let them beat you because you didn't try or you hesitated or you held back You know go out there and just let it go. Good advice. And so I did that one tournament in Oklahoma, I was the only Texan there, and I just threw every guy to their back and pinned them all.

It was like, wow, it was kind of clicked, you know? And it was like, hey, if you go out there and you try, you put yourself out there, you take a risk, those times can pay off. Now, meeting you now and knowing what you're doing now, you are a very kind empathetic, like a gentle, like you're a big dude, you're a massive dude,

very gentle kind individual, and that's the energy you give off. Were you, when you were first started wrestling and fighting, were you the same way or were you motivated by like, you got through a spell of rage. Yeah, like I need to get this out and fight these people and beat them because that or were you like this? I would say I was more like this in the training room

beforehand and after. But my coach has beat it in me that you know if you're going to be a competitor, you know, find what's going to make you tick. What's going to give you motivation. They would always I, in high school, they were taking us through visualization drills that they learned from sports psychologists at the Olympic training center. And yeah, but whenever I got out there to compete,

it was, I mean, that's just the wrestling mentality to go out there to beat them down, to break them. And so, you have, because they're trying to break you, and then you gotta give them more reasons to quit than they're giving you. And so that have, because they're trying to break you. And then you got to give them more reasons to quit than they're giving you. And so that, that, that would be the motivation behind it. But I would say there was times that, that I, I always felt like I needed to prove myself, especially being the Texan that started wrestling a sophomore year, needing to, needing to go out there against these other guys that grew up wrestling or I'm wrestling guys that their

dads or NCAA champions or Olympians and different things like that and they're their coach and so going out there and wrestling guys always kind of be in the underdog Always having to to try to prove that but then having those guys behind me that gave me so much confidence like these guys have been there They've done it and so yeah, I'd go out there trying to prove a point And yeah, it's pretty cool to go from sophomore year, starting wrestling really to then or summer before and then, you know, win in a couple national championships. How'd you make the transition to MMA from there? So I went to the Olympic Training Center right out of high school. I was recruited Iowa State,

Oklahoma State, all those schools and and I, I decided I wanted to do Greco-Roman wrestling, which is the NCAA style isn't done at the Olympic level. And so I was recruited out of high school to there, one of the two guys, and went there, lived for a year, and then I, well you can see this, I broke that elbow, and I tore, that's where the addictions happened with the opiates, and I, man, it broke, disloc elbow and I tore that's where the addictions happened with opiates and I um, man, it broke, dislocated, I tore the ulinary collateral ligament. Um, and then they tried to send me to a mainly a knee and ankle doctor to get the elbow surgery. So I had to wait for four months arguing with insurance company having the doctor they're

sending to me, uh, petition, write letters and say like, hey, I'm a knee and ankle doctor. This guy, if he's gonna compete, maybe trying to represent the US or be a professional athlete, he needs an elbow doctor to do a elbow surgery. Go figure. Yeah. And yeah, so I had to wait for four months and the whole time they put me on oxy

because it was completely torn, the ulinary clatter ligament. And so yeah, so that surgery was tough. That's where those addictions happened. But then after that, I guess what I was going to tell you though, they told me I had a 30 to 35% chance of competing again. So because of that, I decided MMA was an outlet for the wrestlers that, you know, at the Olympic training center, I had a coach that stepped away to work at Home Depot, but he was an Olympian.

He was a world medalist, and he couldn't make enough to support his family as a coach, so he had to go work there, which isn't, I mean, there's nothing bad about that, but that's, he is one of the best at his trade, and it was better for him to step out of that to be able to provide for his family, doing a job that he didn't necessarily want to do.

So fighting as a professional sport, and that being my childhood dream, I jumped into it at 19 years old after that surgery took, and I knew I was going to be able to compete again. Yeah, I started fighting at 19. Can I back you up a little bit, and are you okay with getting into a little bit of the opiate addiction? Yeah, I went through the same thing when I had my first, I'd never broken a bone,

never torn anything, never had an issue before. I tore my ACL and MCL and I've never had, I was a total clean kid growing up, never really did drugs. So never even thought I would be somebody who could get addicted to something. And I remember the doctor telling me, oh, you know, stay ahead of the pain, take one more, take one more. And before I know it, I was up to about seven vikings in a day.

And then when I thought I would didn't need them anymore, I thought I'd just cut cold turkey. And then I experienced that feeling. And so I have a lot of compassion with people that go through it. And I also feel like it's a great thing to share with others because I know there's a lot of people out there that battle this. Yeah, and it was the toughest depression and the addictions were the two biggest battles in my life for sure. And the addictions, I mean, so when I started taking them and whenever the, I was told

you have a 30, 35% chance of competing again. Oh, wow. I felt like that childhood dream was never even gonna get started to be a fighter. God, I had the adversity you went through, you finally get fucking a role and then that gets someone tells you that. Yeah, I must have been rough.

Yeah, and then they gave me the pills. Well, I went into the depression knowing that, I mean, spiraling down again, I had kind of pulled myself out of it by the hard work and it's accomplishments and wrestling and then to know that the only thing that was giving me significance and value and worth in my life or sense of that was wrestling was fighting and that that might be taken away. I needed the pills for the injury I guess, at least that's what I was told by the doctors.

And I did need something to help, but I liked it and enjoyed it because it was numbing that depression side of me. And so, and I loved that because I could just kind of erase and wipe and viking and yeah, for sure. And then being able to get oxy from, it turned into three different doctors in three different states because I was in Colorado as going to Iowa a lot to wrestle

and then Texas to see family so I was able to go and get you know 120 from this guy and 90 from this guy and 60 from this guy because they didn't communicate across state lines at that time and so yeah and then whenever that ran out, I was going and getting it from anywhere. I could find it and turned into, man, I remember it's the six to eight week long bench that I don't really remember anything. There was a hazy memory me hitchhiking

in the mountains of Colorado. Wow. And then I had my best friend call and he said, on the voicemail, I can't believe and I missed it like a few days earlier. And this kind of scared me sober or something, sober up a little bit. But he said, I can't believe I missed my wedding. I can't believe that my best man didn't show up. Oh shit. Yeah, bro, that, that, that was right.

Shit. It was, how do I say it? my best man didn't show up. Oh shit. Yeah, bro, that, that, that was retting. It was, how do I wanna say it? I was just hurt, dude, that just kept hurting people that only love me. And this was as I was a professional, I think this was actually after the ultimate fight or TV show when that happened, which I got on at 21. I was the youngest heavyweight there and everything.

So everything looks like it was going well. From the outside looking in, the reporters, you know, you're the youngest guy in the division, youngest heavyweight that they've signed. You're doing well, you have these accomplishments behind you, but internally, like I was at war, you know, there is, it was the darkest time of my life being in front of the most lights and cameras and all that stuff. Crazy how people perceive things just because we see you on TV and see those things and we have no idea what's really going on inside of behind. Yeah, that I could sober up, hopefully at least part of the time, six to eight weeks before my fight, just to buckle down, hopefully not, you know, pop on the drug test, but then

it turned into me using, you me using two days before the fight and everything else. And if they would have tested me, they would have failed for sure. And yeah, needing that, needing that, like I didn't just want it anymore mentally or like I physically needed it, if that makes sense,

that addiction that you know. So it was brutal, man. It was my mom broke into my house when I was missing before and she found the Coke and just bottles everywhere and a loaded gun and she was just terrified. And at one time, they thought I was overdosing and just like, I woke up, I had this like heat wave

that came over me and this cold rush right after it. And I was just, you know, a guy's cupping the back of my head and he's saying, Justin, you got a drink, you got a drink. And he's giving me this water, just crushed, you know, the bottle in my mouth and half of it, half of it probably didn't even go in my mouth, you know, just went all over and I look at him like,

who, you know, where am I? Who are you? Who am I? You've been am I even sleeping on my cow cheating my food like I don't know if you said a week or what but I mean I'd been there living with this guy didn't even know it look around scary place scary house I mean not scary people but but people that were doing scary stuff around and so it was tough me and the Diction's got really really really bad. And I'm just incredibly fortunate, grateful that I was able to come on the other side of it because I know so many.

How did you do that? Yeah. Do you remember? Do you remember one? How high you got up to like, how many oxy-contains and bike it in? And then do you remember the transition out and what that process was like? Yeah. I mean, it got, it got real bad to where I got to where I was even going to training and I would, I mean, it's sparring days. And I'm, I was at Grudge Training Center at the time with like Shane Carwin, Nate Markwurt. Rashad was there all the time. GSP would come through, George St. Pierre all the time. And we had this kind of working relationship with TriStar and Canada and Jackson Greg Jackson's camp and Albuquer time. And we had this kind of working relationship with Tri-Star in Canada and Greg Jackson's camp and Alba Kerkie. And so I mean like two or three of the best teams in the world

at that time. And I could be there for my training camps and people would help me train. And then whenever it was done, and I wouldn't even show up a lot for my training camps. But whenever my training camp was over, I wouldn't be there for anyone that had helped me. But yeah, in sparring days I would be, you know, chugging some vides, taking some pills, starting up my vape, and going to training right after that, and just being messed up, you know. And it was tough because I got to where it was 34, 32 to one. They took a team vote and I kind of came in late to training, of course, at that time.

And yeah, everyone looked at me different. Coach called me into his office. It's like, look, Justin, we love you. I'm the only guy that voted, and you know, you should stay or we should get you some help or we should do something But none of the guys want you here like you like you have to go get help you have to to beat this This is a bigger fight right now and I and I

Received it kind of well. I broke down cried right there with them. This is Trevor Whitman and He you know love me hug me But you know being sent out of there. I just felt like this was my childhood dream. I became an actual champion wrestling. I was on the ultimate fighters, the youngest guy there. And my childhood dream is like, turned into this living nightmare.

And now that is being taken away from me. So it wasn't the injury, it was the addictions that were taking this away from me. So that was rough, but that was like rock bottom for me. And I mean, a couple weeks before that, I missed the wedding. And then, so this was a shorter time frame where it was like, boom, boom, boom. All everything, just the floor fell out from beneath me. Yeah, and I just had people that started to rally around me one guy in specific and

And he got me going this like retreat and it was truly Transformational went there. There's a lot of broken people that were getting healed up and and changing their lives and seeing people that had done that was just really encouraging to me and Like you said like you're not a religious dude, I'm not either, at least I don't think so, but this was one that, I don't know, man, they're just saying, for me, I would say, this is me, my personal stuff,

but it's what really helped, and I just say, God love the hell out of me. And so it changed my life to where I wanted to do something bigger than just me, if that makes sense. Like I wanted to make a difference and impact. Like life's not about me. How can, how can instead of me just being a fighter and fighting against people and you're right?

There was, even if I tried to suppress it, there was like this rage that was to my wrestling to my fighting for sure where I went out there and I'm like I'm gonna punish this guy. I'm gonna take out all my aggression, all my fighting, for sure, where I went out there, and I'm like, I'm going to punish this guy. I'm going to take out all my aggression, all my anger, all my demons on this guy. How do you have so much awareness? Are you a reader? Did you have a great mentor? I mean, was this just all you putting it together by yourself? I mean, it was at this time, you're 20 something, you're early 20s. Yeah, that was 23, 23 years old. And I've always had,

Yeah, that was 23, 23 years old and I've always had, not always, but after I found, you know, Kenny and Kindle, I would seek out, yeah, people that were a lot older and coaches, mentors, dads of kids on the wrestling team or this coach, that coach, I'd always try to gravitate towards someone that was doing something that I wanted to do with my life. And so even though I had all those addictions and the depression, I did have all those amazing words of advice that had been, you know, dropped in the bucket by, by so many different individuals, speaking kind of life and encouragement over me. And then during the darkest times, yeah, there's just these few guys that just were like, Hey, we're going to go to war with you, battle with you, stand with you in this.

We got your back. We're in front of you or beside you. And that really, really, really helped. It sounds like you finally figured out or you finally had compassion for yourself. Yeah, wow. Yeah, that's a good point because I think it's a lot easier Sometimes with some personality types, I think To have any sort of compassion towards it's easy to have compassion towards others

Mm-hmm. And I necessarily easy but but easier Then yourself a few if you hold yourself to a high standard at least Every small mistake you can blow out a proportion and be so critical of yourself. And that's how I was. If I lost a match and it was a stupid mistake, no one was going to be able to beat me up more than myself. So I would try to learn.

It's interesting because I have children. And a huge learning lesson for me with kids is like, if my kids do something, let's say they a test and they don't get a hundred percent or they compete in something and they make a silly mistake You know, I'll talk them on coach them through it But I have limitless compassion for them like you know, look you tried hard This is a lesson. It's not a big deal but I never was able to do that to myself and Having children have made me realize I hold on a second like why not like I should be able to love that to myself. And having children made me realize, I hold on a second, like, why not?

I should be able to love myself the same way I love these children. And what I found was being compassionate to myself in that same pure way, made me a better person and made my compassion for others, more pure, you know, coming from a, from an even better place. Because it's coming from my own, for me being pure, me being whole. Right. That's great point. So I wanna talk now about your,

what you're doing now, your purpose now, your fight for the forgotten. Let's go into that, because a lot of our audiences are familiar with that whole story and what you're doing now. How did you go from? Well, how close are you to getting there right now?

It sounds like you're starting to make this transition that there's a greater purpose for you than I was just part of that sort of retreat that you went to and started there. In 11 months later, I went to the Congo for the first time, which would become fight for the forgotten. So after that experience and after that transition in my life, I actually stopped fighting for a forgotten. So after that experience, and after that transition in my life,

I actually stopped fighting for a year. I said I was gonna put it on the shelf. This is my job. This is my passion, but I need to take a break. I need to focus on myself, build up a life, and a foundation I can stand on. And it was, but part of that was, okay,

if I'm gonna try to get involved, I'm just gonna try to do something. Like I don't have, I don't have any experience or college education that had said you can do this or that, but I started to volunteer at the local homeless shelter and then I became an official volunteer and went through all the training at the children's hospital. And, now why pick all that?

Why pick volunteering? Man, I think that I had one, like people helped me and I just wanted to help somebody else. And two, I knew that by, or at least it was a positive focus. I wasn't in the gym doing what I love, so I needed to fill it with something that I could love equally or be as passionate about. And man, just seeing some of the stuff, seeing some of the rewards that come out of you, helping one guy in the shelter that it was his first night of homelessness ever, but

introducing him to the guy that ran the place. And then it turned out that I won't go into too many details, but he had HIV and he had found out he had HIV, or that his wife was cheating on him whenever she, he found out he had HIV. Because he had been married and never had cheated on or anything like that. And then also then he comes down with HIV.

So it just wrecked him. His wife had died. He had lost basically everything. And just to know that reaching out to this guy, listening to him, learning his story, just caring kind of about him, caring enough to listen. And then knowing that I could introduce him to Matt, this guy's name was Stan, introduced him to Matt. And then Matt was like, you know what, there's a program we got. Let me introduce you to these people.

And now, you know, as of, as of a couple of years ago, I know that this happened like six years ago, but as of like two years ago, I know that he was leading a group and had his own apartment and was leading a group of other people that were transitioning out of homelessness that had HIV. Wow. To to see him go from that place of rock bottom to then coming out and actually using it to help others. And so seeing stories like that and seeing just a little connection, I didn't do much there. All I did was, hey, stay and meet Matt.

Like this is Matt, this is Stan's story. And he only spent one night on the street and know it anyways. like this map, this is Stan's story, you know, and he only spent one night on the street and, no, anyways, so it was just really cool to see stuff like that happen. And as I was helping others, it was continuing to help me on my path to never become that dude again. That was, that was, it was just undependable, unreliable, battling suicide, all thoughts and depression and all that. So yeah, but I started locally, then I started doing stuff a little bit, like nationally every now and then,

and then I wanted to make one trip a year, internationally and try to make a difference. I didn't realize that that's not the best way to do it, and really like the whole show up, blow up, and blow out technique, or go somewhere to a foreign land, a country you don't know, and a culture in people you don't know. And to come in there acting like you know the answer to their problems is I think a lot of ways. It comes from a good place and

good intentions. I even air get sometimes like, okay, we're from here and we have this. So we're gonna, because you know, like, I don't know know There's like a little underlying thing of like like we're so much better off So let us do this for you. It's also not empowering. Yeah, not empowering at all I and and so my goal after my first trip to Congo was Was man I saw the negative impact of charity and It was like, man, opportunity is better than charity. How do we create opportunities for people there?

And how do we have low impact? And there was a book that was called When Helping Hurtz, really great book. There's a documentary out now on Netflix. It's called A Poverty Inc. And it shows the incredibly negative tragic or just, oh, detrimental impact that foreign aid has. Oh wow.

And even creates more poverty in so many ways. Whenever you come in and you give handouts of free clothes, the people there that are tailors or that have a clothing shop or that repair, you know, this, or you come in and give away a ton of free clothes, the people there that are tailors or that have a clothing shop or that repair, you know, this, or you come in and give away a ton of free shoes with a local cobbler there or the guy that's build making shoes in country. You just put his ass out of business. Yeah.

Yeah. How to business, because those guys aren't living month to month or week to week, they're living day by day. And so you gotta, you gotta slow down. Can't nobody really thinks about shit like that. It was this air. you've come in. And we just, we wanna give, cause it makes us feel good, right?

It's just great, it's a great heart, but you really gotta have a heart for the people first. And that'll be a least a positive impact even whenever you leave. And so a lot of times, I mean, I was there in Uganda when this is outside of Genja. I won't use the community's name because it's almost a slum.

I mean, it's one of the worst slums in Uganda, but it's become almost a tourist attraction because there's so many people that go from the west there. They wanna go to the poorest place possible. It's easier to get in Uganda. It's a little more comfortable there, not from the west there, they want to go to the poorest place possible, it's easier to get in Uganda. It's a little more comfortable there, not in the slums, but they give slum tours because the locals are like, you know what? Like they're doing it for the safaris, for the lions, and the giraffes, and the gorillas,

but people want to come and see these people. So we're going to charge them for it. And then some people that have done that are saying that they're actually gonna use it for something good in the community, the money that they make from it. But still, it's like it's exploiting people. Wow.

Yeah. So anyways, I kind of skipped a little bit ahead, but going the first time and meeting the pigmies who have now become second family. How did you meet them? How did that happen? So I went with a buddy of mine. This is in the Congo. Yeah, this is in the Congo. And when you went, what was like,

you was your intention? I'm going to look for this from looking, or did you come about this? Like how did that happen? What was the, that's a question I get a lot and I'm starting to become more comfortable answering it because I feel like I sound crazy whenever I say how I went there for the first time but I'll just

just... Sounds like serendipitous story. Yeah, it was. I wasn't even looking for it. It wasn't on my radar. I mean, I had never thought I would go to Africa. Like I thought, at this time I hadn't thought the, the let's do something locally and let's do something internationally sometimes. But just having a platform from fighting, I thought, let let's do something locally and let's do something internationally sometimes.

But just having a platform from fighting, I thought, let's use that platform for good. But really, it was only in my radar, hey, help people around you. Like, you need to help people around you before you go anywhere else and help anyone else. But man, about 10, 11 months into that life change, I just found myself in a moment,

and this is just me personally, but just I prayed like, God, what do you wanna do with my life? Because at that time, I was like helping, helping, but there was no direction in what I was doing, but I really did wanna make impact. And I just, dude, I had this vision,

I sound nuts, because I experienced with a ton of psychedelics. And, but this was not, I wasn't tripping out. I got a movie in my mind and it was like, and I told you guys earlier that we would practice visualization. You want to see the match in your mind a hundred times before you get out there and you do it. But this was like effortless and I saw myself in a rainforest and I was walking down a footpath and I I'm walking walking and then I hear this drumming and then I get closer here this singing and I get into this village And I don't know who they are But I see this suffering that like I see ribs poking out me know that they're hungry and that they're sick and that they're poor and that they're

That they're thirsty. They don't have clean water and I knew that they were hated or oppressed and even enslaved. And I know this sounds nuts me. But, and then I just felt like they felt so forgotten, like as people. And I came out of that vision crying like a madman, or just hyper, hyperventilating. I left the puddle of tears. I was on my hands and knees just crying.

And, and I kind of sat and chewed on it for like three days. I thought I'm never gonna tell anyone this story like. Did it just come to you? Yeah, and I don't know, I like I didn't try to conjure up anything. I'm just in this place where I was like, I was by myself and I kind of had this, I was just in this place where I was like, I was by myself and I kinda had this, I was just in a room and thinking and just like,

what am I gonna do with my life? So I was really trying to think about that and I kinda said that prayer, God, we don't even do with my life. And then boom, and it was like, I don't know how to really explain why it happened, but I told someone three days later, it was my buddy Caleb who I found out,

I actually just met him that day, but he, I ends up, people are telling me about this guy and he's kind of friends with Bear Grills and he's a survivalist kind of guy and he goes around the world and does this and that. And so I'm like, oh, well, I wrote this vision down, like at the top said forgotten

and then there's like, you know, a couple of things from the vision on there. And I went up to him and like, hey man, I know this is gonna sound crazy. But this is something that just happened to me. And you seem like a dude, like the only dude I'd probably tell, and if I never see it again, it's all right.

I'm the crazy guy. And he got excited, he kind of leaned in and was nodding his head and all of a sudden I'm like, what? Like what's going on? Like what? Cause he just looked jazzed up about it and it was threw me off.

I thought there was anything that was an absolute nut. And he goes, those are the pigmies. Wow. I'm like, I'm kind of dumbfounded, like looking at him. I'm like, who? Is there in the Congo? Wow. And I'm just like, where, like looking at him, I'm like, who? Is there in the Congo? Wow. And I'm just like, where? I don't know where the Congo is. And he was, I went there

last year and I met him. And I was just traveling through, met him for a day. And I'm planning a trip back. I have my plane tickets. I'm going in three and a half weeks. No fucking why. It meant, and I'm leading a team of three other guys are just doing a scout trip going there to see how we can help them Just going to meet them and and live like they live To see if there's any way that we can make a difference there And then he said but those three guys are one just text me that he's pulling out He's not gonna come the rebels had taken over the airport. They were supposed to fly into

And it was real dangerous and the state department said Americans like no way don't travel there He's not going to come. The rebels had taken over the airport they were supposed to fly into. And it was real dangerous. And the State Department said Americans, no way don't travel there at all for any reason. And he's like, look, but if you had a vision about this, and like I'm telling you, those are the people from that vision, you're saying they're forgotten. Like, you come meet them because yeah,

they're the forgotten people. And so I was like, what? And they told me how crazy it was dangerous even at the time There was the United Nations had just confirmed like 30 something counts of cannibalism against the pigmies Well, the rebel groups are actually hunting them killing them cooking them eating them. Oh my god That still happens in the world. That's so yeah, it's not sprow man Yeah, about 34 kilometers from one of the last wells that I drilled during the year that I was there. There was a rebel group called the My My that would wear belts that had, pick me skulls on them.

They would drink from them before they go into battle. Wow. And thinking that it makes them, I don't know what this word would be, but it's basically invincible or, or where the, where the bullets fly right through you. So it's not invisible, but the bullets go through you. Have you seen, like, physically seen that? I've seen pictures, man, where people came up to me, showing me on their phone.

Like, here's a child soldier that's holding a human heart and he's got like red chin, you know, from biting into it. On believe, oh my God. Yeah, so I've seen some crazy stuff there and heard some terrible stories and had poachers come up and trying to sell me ocupi meat or a copy, have you guys ever heard of that animal?

It's only in the Congo and they're almost extinct, but it looks like a horse or an antelope body with a butt of a zebra in the head of a giraffe. And so it's the only other animal in the giraffe day or giraffe family, but yeah, it's got the butt of a giraffe. And so it's the only other animal in the giraffe a day or giraffe family. But yeah, it's got the butt of a zebra and the body of the kind of animal. Crazy looking animal.

But yeah, people come up trying to sell me rhino horns and elephant ivory and different stuff like that. So it's just a wild place. 38 different warring rebel groups in the east. There's a new study, a failed state study saying Congo shouldn't even be called a failed state. It should be the only country classified as a non-state, just the wild, wild west, like whatever global group in the area, that's what rules.

So it's a crazy place, my first time going, this is, I guess, to close up that, going back a little bit to that vision story, the thing that blew my mind the most and that got me to say, just completely changed my life. It changed me from basically the inside out where I was going this course in my life and it just a complete 180. Okay, I'm gonna dedicate my life to this because we get there and it's Caleb Mean, a guy named Colin who took the picture on the cover there and

And we're walking down a footpath in the forest and then there's some drumming and then there's some singing And we get in and we meet these you must have got like chills so so much so to where I like I went into like a squatting position like elbows on my knees and just hands on my face and And I'm like, oh my gosh, I solved the fatigue three and a half weeks earlier. And then this is your vision, you know, Caleb and Colin, I'm like, this is nuts, like this is crazy. On the last day though, there's some wild stuff

that happened over there, so much corruption and so much heartbreak, meeting people that are suffering in ways that you didn't even know that weren't even on your radar before seeing people drink from this like mossy moss covered green filth and moving it out of the way with their hands or sticks and filling up a Jerry can and having to go the average woman's walk is 3.7 miles round trip and they do that not just one time a day, but two or three times a day. And they have a 20 liter Jerry can, which is five gallons, which is 44 pounds when completely

full. And so they're doing these water walks two, three times a day. Like, their girls can't go to school because it's they need help with them collecting water. Even if they had the funds to send them to a school which you have to pay the school fees in Africa or at least in Congo for sure they're in public schools. They can't send some of their kids. They have to pick and choose who which one of the kids is special enough to go to school because the other ones need to go collect water and see in kids that are dying from it or dying slowly of it. It just completely wrecked me.

And then the chief pulled me to the side and this was kind of the whole, I don't know, the peak of this vision part or story where he pulls me aside and I'm like, I was the last day and I'm like, what am I actually going to do here though? Like this problem. Yeah, it's overwhelming. Yeah, that'd be overwhelming. The insurmountable odds and suffering that I don't understand, I've never been through it,

and I don't know any way to help them. How do we, they need land because they don't have any that they own for themselves, for the pigmies, and they're the first people of Congo, but they've been so oppressed and thought to be half man, half animal, even said so by the government and different stuff. And how do you fight for these people whenever it seems like no one is?

And when they try to stand up, they just get smashed back down. And in the animal part, like 1902 to 1906 we put him a booty pig me We brought him here with the St. Louis World Fair But then 1904 to 1906 Ota Binga from the itery rainforest where I've gone and lived They went there took him from his family mask her to his family and they put him in the monkey house at the Bronx Zoo To live with the monkeys and they fed him bananas. And that's here in the US. Like we did that in the 1900s, but it's like the mindset there a lot is a some way stuck back there when they don't have electricity and they don't have running water and they're

living in these ways and a lot of primitive ways that they still think of them as half man, half animal. Like, what do you do? What do you even do with this? And I felt like I can't, I can't make a difference. Can't where do you start? I could spend my whole life and it'll be maybe a drop in the ocean that I made a difference.

And but no, the chief came up and pulled me aside and it just reminded me of that vision because he's like, look, we don't have a voice. Can he help us have one? And then I kind of was like, man, I have this platform. And he said, look, everyone else calls us the forest people, but we call ourselves the forgotten. And since he said forgotten,

and I had wrote that at the top of that page, or for that vision. When he said, forgotten, Caleb grabbed my shoulder, and my eyes started kind of well and up with tears. And I'm just like, man, I gotta do something. Second trip, I had a one and a half year old that introduced me to the world's water crisis in a brutal way.

His name's Andy Boe, and he actually passed away and I was holding him and it just wrecked me. Just ripped my heart apart, you know, tore me open, seen a little bit like it would be anybody. But like, actually not just reading about it or not just seeing it, oh, that sucks that they're clearing the the moss out of the way with their hands, but actually holding the little guy or living it kind of with not living that, but like, I don't know, but just physically being there and having your hand on the shovel, digging the grave and

just like feeling like, man, I, I, I, in flashing back to my world, you know, flashing back to my world where I can take a piss in the clean water, I can give it to my dog, I can water my lawn with it, you know, there's gotta be some sort of answer and solution to this problem, there's gotta be a way we can put the, put the tools and hands of the people that need it the most.

So it sounds like it started kind of focusing, like you knew, like I have to do this, this is my purpose. Yeah. And that kind of focused it a little bit, like okay water, yeah. Water's got to be one of the main things to work on. Yeah, and we started with land

because you can't give someone water if they don't own the land. But yeah, it was land, water and food and water was it, what everything hubbed around. Now, how did you get them land when they didn't have any, and some of them were slaves, right? Like literal slaves.

I mean, explain that. Like, what do you mean by that when you say slaves? So, worldwide, there's an estimated, well, actually this is the lower stat that I've seen now, but it's supposedly gone up in recent years. There's 27 million slaves on planet earth. Unbelievable. I saw that on your TED Talk. That's fucking insane. Yeah, that's true.

20 absolutely. More than ever in human history walking there with which there's a bigger population. Sure. But, but, but there's just nuts. And, and it's so like hidden and in the dark. And just like the world's water crisis, where 1.5 million children every year under the age of five die

just because they don't have clean water. 1.5 million. And that's like, I think 800 a day just because of diarrhea, I like actually die from diarrhea. And then 2,350 kids every day die from the malnutrition that they have from the water and borne disease because they live in places where there's normally not water, there's not an abundance of food, but the food that they

do have is just running right through them. They're not able to absorb the nutrients from the food. And so it was just absolutely crazy. And so with the pigmies though, the average, or sort of there's a estimated 200 to 600,000 pigmies in Congo, that's the highest population of them. There's some in Rwanda and Uganda and Burundi and Cameroon and Central Africa Republic, but the highest density population is in Congo. And, but pretty much all of them are enslaved to some sort of degree. Some by rebel groups that are throwing them down into the golden diamond and

coal tan mines, which Congo is the richest country on the planet and minerals. It's where we got the uranium for the World War II bombs. It's where just everything, I mean, it's the richest country on the planet by far, but on the human index, development index, they are the poorest, least developed nation. And so it's just a wild place where, but so there's the extreme kinds of levels of slavery, but then there's also ones where three or four generations ago,

it was worse, and but now their slave masters kind of take care of them in ways of like giving them the scraps of food or giving them two or three bananas for a full days labor from sun up to sundown. That's more than mild where they work for them because they don't have any land rights because they used to be able to hunt and gather and completely.

So the slave, they used to have almost an upper, or at least it was a symbiotic relationship where the pigmies and the mucapala, the non-pigmies, there's over 200 tribes in Congo. So we just say the non-pigmies that are live near them. They were growing the corn and rice and beans and the pigmies were hunting and gathering and getting the meat and the rare fruits and vegetables and they were able to come and trade. But eventually with deforestation taking off and the introduction of like the mechanized like chain sauce, it started making it basically impossible for them to trade anymore. They needed to keep all the meat they got because when I've been there and the trees are

falling, sometimes it sounds like thunder is rolling through the forest, but there's no rain. It's these trees that are falling. And so that makes the animal scared and skittish and run away to where it's really hard for them to hunt and gather and provide for themselves now too, where it's basically impossible for them to sustain themselves because of how hard it is to hunt nowadays. And so because of that, they made were made even more vulnerable than the vulnerable other people living in poverty right next to them. But they're slave masters now. We've seen a working relationship with 10 different villages, we drilled 62 wells there for all different communities.

But 10 that we've worked with both sides, the slave masters and the slaves, which we'd say former now, where we worked with on the government level, the local, state and national level, to get them land back for themselves where they own it. It's not fight for the freegoutins land. It's not water force land It's their land which is the strongest thing in Congo courts And so we've gotten them back 3000 acres of land and what's been really great is working with both sides So I was gonna say how did you get them land? How did that work out? So some came from the government, but that was a smaller actually

We wanted to truly work with the community So we go into a community and we cast the vision and if they catch it We're like hey, we want to work with you. We want to sit down and that's what we always do a sit down and listen We call it campfire university where they take us to school around the campfire and and teach us everything and tell us You know the struggles of their community so that way we don't't have this cookie cutter going to do a new village and saying, we already know we've been into this place, so we know all the problems here in this place too. You gotta sit there and listen and learn. So when we do that, though, what we found is that in some of these areas where the slave

masters have, it's the third or fourth generation, you know, they inherited their slaves and their families and They're making a dollar to a dollar 25 per day the slave masters That's the average income of 74 million people in Congo and so It's it's almost become a burden to have to have these People underneath to take care of and so but they underneath to take care of. But they can't take care of themselves, and it's their slaves they inherited, and their father owned them, and their grandfather owned them.

And so they own them, and it's like, a crazy dynamic. Isn't that nuts? It's so crazy that it's happening today in this world, but it's like how can we call it to make up a moja in Swahili? How can we work together for good? And so the good of all people, and I think that's good business, right?

Everyone wins. It's not about like, hey, I'm going to get a, you know, we're going to work out this deal, but I'm actually getting the better end of the bargain and you're going to, you're going to be bitter afterwards. It's like, no, how do we do this in a way that it's win-win-win for everybody? The slave masters technically, you know, maybe losing their people, but in a way that it's win-win-win for everybody. The slave masters technically, you know, maybe losing their people, but in a way that like they have asked for now, after the first couple villages in Bbofi, Mabukulu, people were coming to us saying, we want to work out the same

kind of deal you guys did with them. So it's all in the, the government level where everyone's signing it, it's contracts, it's handwritten, it's typed out, everyone's signatures on it and they're thumbprints. So no, we can say that they didn't sign it. But at the same time, when we buy the land from their masters, they're benefiting financially because they're selling the land and that's going to help their family. It's helping the pigmies because they get land and that's helping their family. And then we bring in water.

And so I told you guys about Andy Bo, but it also happened with a little guy named Bobo and then a little girl named Siku that I've been part of the funerals of. And but then I've also been to five or seven others. And half of those are probably from the Macapala, the non-pigmy kids. They don't have access to clean water at all.

And so they're dying of the same diseases that the pigmies are, and none of them have access to clean water. And their little girls aren't able to go to school where their wives are having to go on this two or three trips a day, spending hours hauling this and they're next killing them from those water walks.

And their stomachs constantly filled with parasites and worms. And so to know that we can come in and work together so that we buy back the land and kind of restore a good relationship among the YouTube people. And not that there was ever even being the slave master. Sometimes they had healthier relationships with the people. This is kind of how that community worked. I wouldn't say they're evil people. Now the ones that are the rebel groups

that are holding guns to them, they're putting them in chains. Yeah, we haven't been able to help make an impact there. But where we can work with both sides, it's been I'm making this really long, sorry, but it's not right, man. It's hard to kind of share the whole dynamic. That's why there had to be a book. That's why now there's a two hour feature link documentary

coming out, hopefully at Sundance this next year. Telling the story and having them tell the story. So it's not like me trying to do it. It's them having their own voice, if that makes sense. And sharing that, you know, we had a slave master on camera crying with us saying how, not crying, but having a tear that he wiped and saying that, you know, this helped the community so much because he ran the local clinic. He was the chief and he ran the local clinic and his hospital there, 87% on average for three years were

seen at his clinic just because of water more disease. When we came in and we lifted the burden with the land deals, then of the water, that clinic the very next year was 10%. So, from 87% water more disease down to 10%, then we brought in the wash program. Water and sanitation hygiene helped them dig latrines put up hand washing stations. Now we're starting a soap production facility because they have all the raw natural materials there. But the only thing only soap I've ever seen sold in Congo and that people ever use is this car washing soap that's coming from either China or India and it's packed fully chemicals. I've used it plenty of times

and it leaves your skin raw afterwards. Or at least there's like the first couple of times for sure until your body kind of gets used to it. And so we're able to create jobs in that way. And so it's helping the community saying, hey, we want you guys to lead the way with this. We want to truly empower you. We want to create an opportunity.

And the proof in the putting for me was being there for a full year and then having to step back step out that was a hard step like but I had to say if this thing is dependent on me it's going to fail anyways. So I need to step back and see these guys doing it for themselves and they need to know that this is their business. This is their opportunity to do good. They own it, they run it. And we're going to continue to pour into them, invest into them, bring the right trainers, the water, the geohydrologist, the engineers, the people to continue to teach them in their craft where they're going to get better.

But yeah, the next year, I was there for the first 13, the next year they did 20 wells without me there. And then this last year, they did 29 new water wells. Took the number up to 62. We have 18 full-time staff. It's their job to be well-drillers. They spent 301 days teaching the wash program in these different communities that we've drilled the wells.

Now our top two guys are able to go out. They started a new team in Cameroon, which isn't even the country, it's a different country, but they want to help teach others how to drill wells in Sierra Leone and Malawi. Then they've gone and received training from the other waterfall teams because waterfall, the nonprofit fight for the Freyons Initiative underneath, they have 375 people in the country of Africa, sorry, continent of Africa, and 16 different African nations that are all nationals that are drilling wells. So over 40 well drilling teams last year they drilled 690 wells, served 172,000 people.

And it was all the people in the countries serving their own countrymen, instead of having to wait for us to come do it for them. So it's a real movement that's happening. Yeah, yeah, it's been so cool. Well, there's a couple of things that I really stand out to me. One is, when you talk about how when Westerners go in and donate and give things like shoes and food that they're

confusing intention many times for a result. And in the 80s, there was a huge push to feed people in the continent of Africa. And what happened was we gave them tons and tons of food and aid. And then the unintended consequence of it was, and of course it was all good intention, but the unintended consequence was, you had then generations of people coming up who didn't know how to farm,

and became the teach a manifest thing. They became very incredibly dependent on this aid and actually ended up in, you know, and sometimes in, you know, worse situations. Yeah. Absolutely. And the way you're doing it is very different. Yeah. And one of the things that you're doing that's very different, which requires a tremendous

amount of empathy, compassion, but also of objective intelligence is it's easy. It would be very easy for anybody, for me, to go in and like, slave, slave master, slave masters, you guys are bad. You know, screw you guys, we're not working with you. We're gonna help these oppressed people. And in fact, we're gonna punish these slave masters, which feels justified. You feel like there's justice behind it. But is that really a long term?

Are you really accomplishing it? Because once I leave, you know, now, like you said, you're not getting this win win, and could that cause more problems? Could that cause more war? Right. And that kind of stuff? Yeah, I think what I learned from my team is, the team of guys there, right? Honestly, there's so much better than I am at this.

And they're the engine, and I got to be the spark plug, and now I get to go back and kind of fill that engine back up with some fuel, and hopefully that's encouragement and different stuff, but they, but they're the ones putting it into action, and just being able to be there, and like they said, you know,

if we try to love one side and hate the other, it's only gonna end up hurting the people that were really trying to love and help. And so we got to love both sides. We got to help them both equally. They're the same community. And so how do you draw this line of between them and say, we're going to help you, but we're not going to help you. We're going to exclude you and we're going to include you.

And so it's a, it's a really, I honestly think it's slower, it's much slower the process, but the impact, you get to see it, and you get to feel it, and you get to hear it. And I'm honestly not needed for this thing anymore. I get to be a part of it. And it's almost like I went, this might sound really cheesy, but it feels like I went from kind of a leader in it to then now it's my job to be

the cheerleader and just cheer them on and encourage them and be like, because the tough thing is that you're so right about, I think in the 80s, like you're saying, there was a song I think that was the rally. Wasn't it? We are the world. It was something like that. We are the country. And then I think there was lyrics in that song that said, like it's where nothing ever

grows and it's where no river ever flows. And it's like, that is not Africa. Like at all. There's the Nile River there. There's the Congo River, the longest ones and the deepest, most powerful rivers that could, if there was a big enough like electric dam inside of that thing,

it would light up the world most likely, but at least Congo, at least Africa. And, and you drop, I mean, you spit a seed in the rainforest, it's going to grow. Like, it, it's so fertile, but the outside aid has impact so negatively that everywhere I walk, there's, you go to the market to buy rice, it all says on their American made rice or China, India, then these government, like they have these government subsidies and these big farms that like they get paid

by the government to produce all this food, to just go drop it there for free. And so what does that do to that local economy there? That they, it was there, they were the farmers. What people don't sell it. What people don't realize is many times the way aid works, big government aid is that it, it goes from the poor people of a rich country,

because we get many times taxed for it, for example, to the rich people of the poor country. So you've got the owners of these big farms and stuff, getting these massive government subsidies that came from a rich country, and then they give, you know, they do their free stuff, and you don't have the distribution as efficient or effective as when there's a market-based economy there. You get a lot of people who then there is no way to compete with that. How do you create a business and compete with something that's free? You can't. And so it depresses progress in many ways.

And I don't want to discourage anybody, by the way, from giving to charities and stuff. I just think it's important people see it so that we can be as effective as possible. And then you even set it like The Congo is one of the if not the most mineral rich places in the world The problem isn't that they lack Resources because that's what a lot of people think like oh, they just need resources just given bunch of resources The problem many times is that there's just there are there isn't the ability to have these open markets. There isn't these opportunities for people to own property and to build for themselves.

And what you're doing when you're teaching people how to build these wells and getting them involved is that's a spiraling effect like. Now that you started there and it's grown, it's only grown on its own. It's got to be really exciting to see the potential or the possibilities of where this continues to go. Oh my goodness. I mean, it's been, it's blown my mind because we went from saying, okay, we're going to go deep into the rainforest

with these water wells. And we need something practical and sustainable. We can't buy a $500,000 to a million dollar drilling rig and drive over these bridges that collapse so often and go over these terrible roads, they're just gonna beat the vehicle beyond recognition and then we can't even drive it into the rainforest. So the mud or the trees are all in the way

and we can't clear a road. So we gotta be able to hike this stuff in. And so it's all manual drilling, it's all augurs and chisels and rock breakers. And it can take 10 days, 16 days to complete a well. It's the hardest work I've ever been a part of. And we had several guys quit at first because we weren't, we were in a tough geological area.

And we were beginners. And this was like, we were like white belts and this was like black belt level stuff. And good analogy. Yeah, and so, anyways, it was tough, so some guys quit on us. And finding the right people is the toughest part, but there's so many good people there,

waiting for an opportunity because there aren't many. And so you get those people in, and people are greatest resource with the good hearts and the good in the right place in the right mindset. And then empower me out where we just got our first mechanized rig, which we're not going to stop the manual drilling at all, but the mechanized rig that came across on a river in three canoes of $50,000 drilling rig, we were like, please don't sink, please don't sink. But it made it safely.

And now they're gonna be able to go punch some 300 foot D poles in the ground in areas that communities are able to buy themselves. And so it's not even giving the wells away. They're looking for private contracts. So that's the way they're becoming so self-sustainable that they don't need us. They're already getting close to 50% self-funded in their own country. It's not a whole bitch, I love this.

Oh man, and then it's going to become a, so World Water Day is March 22nd. Water Four is doing this thing where it's going to be really awesome, where we're building a water tower or water kiosk in this community. Tomorrow, huh? Yeah, that's tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely. Tomorrow. And we're doing this campaign. It's you know, we're trying to raise $50,000 for this water tower. And the reason being, is that water tower in this community, one, they're drinking from the same place that they're cattle. They're a bunch of, you know, they're hurting tribe. And so, hurting and hurting, I guess, but they, I mean, there's cow patties all right there in the water, right beside the water.

And the kids are getting real sick. And we're going to put up this water tower. So that way, they come and they buy the water, because I mean water, you're paying for everywhere we use water here. You pretty much pay for it. And so they are going to do it for like five cents or five shillings per Jerry can. So for 20 liters, five gallons, you pay five cents basically a nickel. And that right there is going to go back into the community.

It's going to help fund a school and it's going to help fund more wells. And so we're trying to create these things. And we're going to do that model from after we go and do it in Rwanda, which we've already done at Kenya, Ethiopia, and Sierra Leone successfully to where those things are already producing multiple wells per year, those water kiosk. So now we're going to do that in the Congo too, to where we're just trying to find every solution possible. I mean, eventually in two years from now, we're going to do that in the Congo too. To where we're just trying to find every solution possible. I mean, eventually in two years from now,

we're going to be doing water taps and people's homes, hopefully. Wow. They're close to those water towers. To where they, you know, to where the people that do, in Africa, it's either you are incredibly extremely rich or you are incredibly extremely poor. There is no middle ground. And that like, it's just,

it's two different worlds and spectrums. And so for those people that have the money, we need to be able to say, hey, we got an answer for you. You want to run in water, you want to shower, you want to sink and all this, but with clean water, because the only thing they have right now,

if they do have something coming in as dirty water, even the really rich people. So, yeah, trying to find those solutions, they say, hey, we have this service for you, but whenever we get that, we're going to do something good with it. And so, it's just been so cool to see the team coming up with it, brainstorming, casting the visions, getting in front of a big whiteboard, a chalkboard, and just start drawing up the big dreams and visions. What's it like working with the governments there, the local governments in the visions, getting in front of a big whiteboard, a chalkboard, and just start drawing up the big dreams and visions. What's it like working with the governments there, the local governments, and is that tough?

Yes, at first. It was so tough at first because they wanted us to pay a $1,500 tax every time we drilled a well, saying that's Congo's water, it's not your water. Yeah, leave it there, nobody can use it. But when you get it, yeah, you gotta pay us. Yeah, how nice of that. Yeah, it's so nuts.

It's on the president who has never even elected on his agenda water is number one. I think it's only around 1% of 74 million people have clean water there in Congo. Wow. And so we want, we want to change that. And I think that this model, we can knock out the world's water crisis in our lifetime. Like we have the tools, technology, and the people are there in the communities.

They're going to be more passionate about it than I ever could be. They know the day-in-day outstuggle. They've lost family because of it. And they're suffering because of it. And so, but the government, we went and had to go through some appeals and go to court and fight them. Then we got them down to $750.00 and next time we went to court. And then luckily, we'd never paid anything. And then we went back a third time, had a great lawyer from from there in the Congo. and he really fought for us hard

Say and this is the president's number one agenda wire put it on the politics of it all Absolutely, he was so great at it and now it went to where they dropped it down to zero And now the governor of that state and night jury He is fully backed us sponsored sponsored us, supported us. That is. We basically have free reign of the region. Of course, the people love it, man. Now you got to do it, buddy, or you had to get elected. Yeah, absolutely. And I think he's, I mean, he saw that part for sure, that I better sponsor

this and stop trying to take away from it. But that's what they get used to where whenever these big NGOs come in with an unlimited amount of resources and funds and millions or billions of dollars to spend, and then they also have a quota and donors. That's the number one thing on those NGOs. Agenda is, I hate to say it and hopefully it's not. They have good intentions, they really want to help the people, but really, they have to please the donor more than they have to please the people in the, there. So they have to crank out a bunch of tally marks and meet the expectations and quotas. So they don't have time to actually have relationships with the people. So the government, anyone that sees those organizations coming in, they try to get whatever

they can get out of it. But their hand out. Yeah, people don't realize just how much some of these people in power, these government officials are benefit from some of these foreign charities and donations because they come in and they say they come in. We've got, you know, $5 million to donate to whatever. Well, they're like, oh, cool. We're you know, $5 million to donate to whatever. Well, they're like, oh cool, we're gonna get

like a million of that or whatever. And then the rest, we're gonna divvy it up amongst some of these people in power and landowners or whatever. And it sucks because it's not doing what it's intended to do many times. It's a kind of horrible situation. And you know, you were talking about how, you know, us as Americans, as wealthy Americans, when we look at these situations, when we

look at these, at these charities and helping these people, what, and I hate to say this because we're all, we all, America is one of the most giving countries in the world. It just is. If you look at charity, we are by far the most charitable nation on earth. We're also one of the wealthiest. And, but I do think that there's a level of when you look at a people or a region There's a little bit of that I hate to use the word condescending, but almost like they can't help themselves. We're just gonna take care of them Because they can't do it. So poor people. Let's just give you this stuff. You're not gonna be able to do it on your own Whereas you're not looking at them like that. You're looking at them saying, these are very capable, amazing

people. They're not, you know, beneath me. They don't need me to just give them shit. All they need is an opportunity to do with themselves. And it seems to be working spectacularly. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And that's, that's what's been, yeah, I mean, it's been so cool because, you know, after I found some the first four guys on our team They were so rock solid. They were I mean better men than I for sure. I look at those guys as like giants They're incredible dudes and I've learned so much and and been encouraged so much and these are guys that you know I was in their wedding. And there's some of my best friends and my brothers. And we've gone to war together,

like how you develop these relationships with, you know, my fight team and training partners, we spar together. These guys, we've been through some really tough stuff. Whenever I told you I was digging the grave, but I wasn't digging it alone, you know, these guys were with me. And they've lost family I've seen, met their ants that have scars all over them because they've been hacked up with machetes and actually lived to survive and tell about it. So they've been through so many tough stuff and they've risen above it, they've dug deep

and they've overcome and so being around those people has, you know, been Jack Patrick. I mean, these guys, I'm a goo on the goo, which means we are one. We are not different. And learning from them, some incredible things that they live out, you know, they say, a Swahili proverb is if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. And so they're always wanting to include each other. And in us here, we want to be so independent individuals, but there, you just do life together, and it's a community.

And I love that about the sports world and lifting and everything else. Like there's these communities, it's podcast, right? There's an awesome community behind Mind Pump. But yeah, having a community of these guys that are just, they're fighting for something so much more than themselves has been awesome. Were you ever put in some dangerous situations when you, I mean, because you don't necessarily blend in.

No, I don't. We're in. I mean, you're a, you're a really big dude with like, you know, blondeish, orange, his hair, big beard. I mean, yeah, you look like the target. You're a really big dude with like, you know, blonde-ish orange-ish hair, big beard. I mean, yeah, you look like the opposite. The orges came to the car. You're like the opposite.

Yeah, we're just a mighty rod. Yeah. No, it's, no, you're right. Walking through the jungle, I'm sure I look like of the Nila gorilla. Yeah. Or I've had people think I was half literally, because we go so remote sometimes

because we only start where it's the worst. We still are targeting there. And then we come out in the community to try to help fund more of where it's worse. But yeah, I've been called half-man half-lion before. Had people run and hide behind trees. I've had a bow and arrow drawn on me from the distance. Oh shit, no. Yeah. Because coming in unannounced is something and hide behind trees. I've had a bow and arrow drawn on me. I'm just gonna say.

Yeah. Because coming in unannounced is something we learned I should probably give them heads up on that. Coming in there. For the first time, first guy with light skin, they ever meet. Yeah, there's been a video that went viral that was on Jimmy Kimmel and the today's show and stuff of, you know, the kids, kids, the white guy for the first time. And no, man, it's, but yeah, there's been some dangerous situations from rebel groups.

I won't get into the situation, the instance, to protect some others that were involved, but yeah, I was in a standoff with like seven or eight guys and there's three or four machine guns aimed at me and I was those I'd say trauma. Yeah for sure traumatize Where's there ever a moment during all of this because off air you talked about how you've had malaria twice and some other You know you've gotten some other illnesses that you wouldn't you wouldn't get if you were just staying here, right? Dangerous situations living in the Congo. At any moment, are you thinking like, man, I don't know if I can do this or I think I'm done.

After the first trip, um, well, during the first trip, for sure, that's when I was thinking this is too, too big to death. I can go home and live my life. So you gave that a now the mosquito analogy, I think, I think is so great. Absolutely. Oh, and after having malaria, actually three times now, it means a lot more into me now because you get it from a mosquito bite and they say that if you think you're too small to make a difference, try to sleep in a closed room with a mosquito. Yeah, that's a great quote. I love it.

Yeah. I love it. And it's so true, because like, well, having malaria, I'm a mosquito, just a little bite, almost took my life. It made that big of a difference, where I lost 33 pounds in five days. Oh, shit.

I was vomiting at the end of it, red and green, which was blood and bile. Oh. My soft guess was raw for like two weeks after I lost my peripheral vision. It sounded like I had a bees hive in my ears. Like just, I don't know why, but just constantly sounded like I had a bees hive.

And my fever would spike to one of three something and then dropped to 96 and felt like I was on a rocking ship that was like spinning in circles And man, I would I would say though that after That vision and then it actually a happening like is like man. This is something I've got to do dedicate my life to the second time though second trip I've got to do dedicate my life to the second time though, second trip, um, being there with Andy Bowen and even being part of the funeral. Like, uh, how do I say it? Um, here it's so different. Like I get culture shot coming back here. Um, I don't, I don't get it there. I have actually, I'm actually homesick for there. I love it. I've spent two years there over the last five and just love it.

But it seems like relationships there have so much more depth to them a lot of times. But here, whenever death happens and it's so tough, it's so hard anywhere. Death is never anything pretty, but in a way, we make it as pretty as possible because there's all the flowers and it's in a really nice place and we all get our best dress and, and, and we prepare ourselves. We try to hold everything all together whenever we go. And man, that first funeral for Andy Bo, I mean, it was, uh, it was so ugly and painful in your face and raw and real. And, you know, when I was holding him, the blood came out of his ears and onto my hands. And it was just like, oh my gosh, you know, I've never seen that before.

And so after that, and seeing the pain and committing to them that like I'm gonna try to do something my first promise wasn't to do land or water food But I was like hey, I can I can help tell your story because that was them saying we don't have a voice can help us have one So after that the commitments to it. I would say that the tough stuff just came with the territory and it was like at that point you meet that said I'm doing it I don't know what happens now. I I see. I see you have a ring. Are you married? Okay. How is your wife sort of been with this whole process of you going out there and visiting you?

Were you married before you went or was it after that you met? We met a month after my first trip. Wow. And our actual first conversation was about the pigmies and my trip and I was telling I was thinking about this name called Fight for the Forgotten. You know, they told me they're forgotten. I felt that I knew that before and then I'm a fighter. So that was our first conversation and she's been completely wholeheartedly

supportive ever since. And because that's how it started our relationship and she's actually lived there for three months or been there for three months Her first time ever camping is is pictured inside my book It's a twig and leaf hut. She slept on the ground That's her first time camping period She didn't Yeah, she's from like Dallas Fort Worth city girl like inside the city and

Her dad tries to dispute that saying, oh no, she grew up camping. They went camping at a campsite in a camper a couple of times and had a TV and shower and beds inside the camper. So I was like, okay, Poffa Bear, you're right, she's been camping. But here I'll say, you know,

her first time ever camping was there in the forest with the pigmies, but they've fully accepted her into, adopted her in. There's only four people I know of that they've given a Mabuti Pigmy name to. They've given me the name, F-A-Osa, Mabuti Maung Bo, and you gotta say it like that. What does that mean? F-A-Osa was the first name given to me, and that was actually right before Andy Boe, and it means the man who loves us. Oh.

And so I obviously love that one. Maybe tear up, and I wasn't that emotional of a dude until I started going and meeting and seeing, you know, it's okay, it's okay to be emotional, it's okay to care. And I mean, yeah, there were men, we can be tough too. I still like to fight. But yeah, it's okay.

And Mabutimong Bo is now my fight name translated. It used to be the Viking, but now it's the big pig me. And so that's what everyone calls me. Wow, they're calling you one of them. Yeah, the big pig me. So Ben, his name's Amigo Amigo, which means we are one, we're in a different, and then Emily, she is LuSumé Kumateli, and LuSumé means chosen, and Kumateli means belongs here. And so they love her, because I think there's a difference where there's people that come to help and

they just give stuff away. And normally when that happens, they're staying in a hotel that's hours and hours away. And then they wake up early and they drive out there and they come out there and they announce their arrival with a parade and they throw a party and they take a bunch of pictures, but they never stay. They never immerse themselves in the culture, at least there. Because it's extreme circumstances too, you know, like my wife's first love man. It is. And if you don't have a real reason,

or probably connection, it's not really like vacation, right? No, it's not vacation, man. But to the people, when that happens, they say they feel like it's a human safari. When people just come in, give something and take a bunch of pictures of us, and we only see them for a couple hours, and they promise they'll come back, but they never do. It breaks trust.

And whenever you come in there and stay like they stay, learn how to build a hut like they build, go out there and collect the leaves like they do, start how to build a hut like they build, go out there and collect the leaves like they do, start putting the shingles and walls up through the skeleton of twigs that you make into this dome, sleep on the dirt and get rained on and have a roaches climb on you, you have to get someone to get a black mom bow to your hut. And this right there is that little pinkish or whatever scar. That's my ankle. And that was a scorpion that got me. And they got up, ran out, got these leaves or herbs or whatever, and pounded them up

and that little wet mortar and made this paste and put on me. So because at that time, I started to break out into a fever and my teeth started to chatter and they put that paste on there to draw out the poison and venom. And so like you learn and you experience and you have these stories of tell and they see right there and you're almost, how would I say it? Like you're on like eye to eye level with them. You're not, you're not looking down at them in their situation and their poverty. You're, you're there to learn, um, to live with them. How, how much of this has changed your, your relationships with people back home here now? Like, how much do you feel yourself being more mindful or more appreciative of relationships

and connections? How's it changed you? Oh, yeah, for sure For sure and it's it's also made it it's made it Some relationships so incredibly valuable and then it's made some other relationships I don't know this might sound real callous, but but just like hey, I want to I want to do life with people that want to do life with me or I want I want to tell this story. I want to I want to try to be mindful and share that man life is so much bigger than what we can get. And I think I just throwing out another documentary that I liked it was called Minimalism. That I just watched it. Yeah, I just watched it too and had so much great stuff in there. And what's what I what I connected that tour related it to was, man, the pigmies are some of the most oppressed and poorest people on planet earth.

They have the least. You know, I've never met them a bootie pigmy that owned a blanket. The fires are blanket. They get rained on. They have to hover over, you know, some pieces of wood that have a little bit of an ember still on it to keep their fire going when it's raining so bad. If they have clothes on their back, then they're lucky because they probably don't have a second change. So I mean, I don't have to keep giving you analogies, but it's like, it's like, but they are also some of the happiest people I've ever met.

You know, telling them my story of depression and telling them my story of addiction. Were they confused by that? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that they truly understand what depression is. Looking at you like, what do you mean? Yeah, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you could you be depressed? You have a shirt, right? Yeah, you can come from another another World almost halfway across the world, you know and come see us like what do you? What do you have to complain about but when I told him that this was really interesting because When I told him that I was so depressed because I had actually attempted suicide

to go just attempted suicide to go just ton of pills and drink half a bottle of clear and just ton of coke and just was ready to end it, you know, it's luckily woke up. And when I told him I wanted to hurt myself because as that's sad, like they were like, wait, like they didn't have a real reference for that. They hadn't never heard of someone killing themselves or no, at least no one of anyone that ever had. They're fighting for their life every day. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah. And they were just like, well, wouldn't, this was asked to me, wouldn't hurting you only hurt you? Like why would, why would you do that? It's very simple. You already hurting. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, anyways, it was just like, it's like, wow, you know, but then looking at that documentary, got me thinking, man, we are just in this rat race to get stuff, you know, just to get stuff. And it's like, why don't we have that same kind of drive and tenacity and like wake up early, stay up late to have great relationships with people,

to make a difference. It's a fact, I mean, it's weird, but I mean, many of these psychological disorders that we suffer from extreme anxiety, depression, we have terms for a lot of these things, ADD, ADHD, a lot of them are modern, issues like modern world, Western society issues and like depression hasn't gone down

as we've become wealthier. And I think there's lots of theories as to why, but when I meet people like you and I've met others who seem to be very purpose, you know, they have a purpose, rather than trying to, you know, think of like what they need to have to be their perfect life, they just find meaning in what they have, you know, like, okay, so things go bad, there's a meaning behind that, and this is the purpose,

rather than, no, it has to be this particular way, or I'm not happy. That seems to be from what I hear from people to answer, seems to be the answer. How much did you have you grown from this experience in that regard? I'm in. Are you anywhere near the same person? No, I've a lot of my friends and family like especially like my mom and dad. Like from from from being the bullied kid to then the good athlete, they pretty much couldn't recognize me. Like you said, you seem like a different person there. And that was probably our best decision

we've ever made for you to send you that school, get you away from those kids. But then, yeah, it was actually recently, my mom, yeah, kind of a cool emotional time. She was filming for the documentary, did her interview with the filmmaker and afterwards we went to lunch and she said, Justin, I can't even really, like I remember that time and it's so scary

when I broke into your place, whenever I found all that stuff, whenever I was worried for your life, whenever she took the loaded gun and hit it. And then she's like, I don't even recognize you. Like you seem like a different person. And so to have that, and I know what I feel like even talking about some of those things, it's been, I think six years, 10 months and 16 days. Yeah, 16 days that I've just been a different dude. And I feel like as I keep leaning in to this, to fight for the forgotten,

or just fighting for people, the farther away I get from that depressed. And I'm not saying that I'm a, like dude, I'm a work in progress. I can, I can, absolutely. I'm jacked up, I have times where I have a pity party and that I'm a, like, dude, I'm a work in progress. I can... Always, right? Absolutely. I'm jacked up. I have times where I have a pity party and then I'll send it and I have to just remind myself.

Like, I think that's what sent me into that downward spiral was. Like I had blinders on. All I could see and focus on were my own problems. That's all I saw. I couldn't see anyone else's. It was like I was looking through, I don't know, a microscope at my problems, but whenever I've leaned back and been able to take those blinders off, open my worldview or perspective up

and see others and see what actual true suffering is. It shrunk my problems down to where I might need that microscope again to even try to find some of them. So, I mean, that's not true, but I mean, I have problems and different things that are actually happening. Sure, and it's none of it is subjective now that you have. And none of it is to trivialize how you felt before

or if anybody's feeling that kind of pain. Yeah, exactly. But I think when you step into that role, I mean, it sounds selfish, but you get as much as you give. Like, you're going, you're helping all these people, but you're receiving so much from it. And a lot of it is helped you on that personal.

And do you find yourself having compassion or at least coming to terms with those kids that bullied the hell out of you? I think you must have hated them forever I did do you feel different about them now? Do you feel any kind of compassion for them now? Or do you try to understand that I almost feel sorry for them? Yeah, yeah, that's what it's it's felt like and I wish them well. I've even seen some of them

over the years and And had people reach out. I mean After the book came out and after I mean mean, some of those kids have bullied me, read my book. You know what I mean? It's like, it's the third or fourth chapter where they're like, oh man, if it's- I was like, I'm gonna hit home for them. Oh, yeah.

And so, which, I mean, is nice that they recognize it now and it looks like their lives have changed and then there's some that, one that's still a knucklehead or two and one that's put away in another still out being a knucklehead. And so, but yeah, I think it's it's changed to where it's like man, like they just must have had a really rough, they're suffering from something to probably a terrible home life, which I wouldn't wish on anybody, you know.

And so how can, how can we, so I always go back to the forest, it's just taught me so much, but it's like, how can we go back and just think about what's truly important and of value and things to actually worry about, and then things really put our energy into. And so it's been, I don't know, man, it's just, I wish people could see that stuff, but then at the same time, like it's tough for me to encourage that because I want people to, I don't know, I don't want to encourage

that kind of tourism at the same time. Like just go there and see how good you have it. But like if you go and there's a real reason and purpose behind it because you're gonna empower somebody else But you it's got to be slow and strategic and play the longer You know, I think if everybody just found their purpose it might not be the same as yours, right? But if everybody found something that they felt truly driven to do You know up a real purpose, I think that would be it.

That would be the answer. And some people's purpose may be helping animals, other people's purpose may be helping others with opportunities and business or life or whatever, but when you find that, if everybody found that and we're driven in that way, it is extremely liberating. I mean, you talked about the bullies, for example, like, releasing that anger towards them or resentment towards them. And now you feel bad for them and you understand,

like, that's not you just being compassionate because you're supposed to, that's a feeling that is, you lifted that off yourself. People don't realize the kind of pain that you carry with that kind of hate and resentment and anger and once you release that It's it's gone. Yeah, and you feel You know chains chains fell off or some bricks fell off your back of backpacks and you can and you can breathe Yeah, you know, I mean we work in fitness and a lot of people get motivated to work out because of that

That's a huge I mean everybody everybody would talk to you know like you know Why did you start working out? Why did you start training? Oh, I was bullied. I was bullied. And you can see the ones that haven't let it go. And it drives them to do bad things to themselves and their bodies. And then those that have released it, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing. Transform it is. It's an amazing feeling. Yeah. How often do you go back to visit the your some of these tribes that you were with. Yeah. It's starting to get less and less because of the model and method that we're really trying to walk out. That's what I mean. So you're starting to see the self-sustaining model. Yeah. And so the less I'm actually and I'm communicating with our team all the time. I mean, almost on a daily basis, except for whenever they're out there in the field, then it's like a weekly basis because they don't have any network

anyway to communicate. But I go back about once a year now and or at least that's what it's changing into this year, which is tough for me because I love them, I want to be there, but then I also want them to know that this is theirs and that they don't need me. And so, but in the first five years, it was there for close to two and one year at one time, but just trying to myself mature in a way that I can walk this out to where I'm not needed there so much. And then maybe I go there one time a year and maybe I go to another place with our team,

like whether it's that team in Cameroon or another team somewhere else so that we could start up another somewhere else and make it happen. Well, I feel like too, you're, I mean, you got the major ball rolling big time. You've created the model. And now you're probably better served doing stuff like this now.

You got a crazy lineup of podcasts that you're about to be on. You're going to get exposed to millions of people. They get to hear this story that may have not heard some viral videos on YouTube. Yeah, I mean, I feel like this now, now that you've got it going and that I feel like this is just as important, you know, I think. I think there's two for me at least when I read about and hear about your story because I was familiar with you before you came on the show. There's two things that I really learn from it.

One is just like I talked about now several times is finding your purpose. The second thing is the model that you guys are using to help these people. And not necessarily the exact model, but that whole idea of going in and working with people there in ways that are self-sustainable so that you can eventually go. That you're not gonna be there all the time and that now they take care of themselves

and realizing that they're capable of doing it, all they need is just that opportunity to do so. They're capable human beings, and you need to foster that. That first domino just needs to drop, just needs to be tipped over. And the key is probably just figuring out what that first domino is.

Yeah, absolutely. And that could be the toughest part for sure. And then, yeah, but like you said, this part now, man, public maybe it's from the past and everything else. And I actually grew up and I had speech therapy all the way through elementary school and everything else. And so how hard is this band? I get your Ted talk too. That must have been fucking nerve-racking dude. Absolutely. Public speaking is my number one fear by far.

Oh god. Out of doubt. A much is my number one fear by far. Oh, God. Out of doubt, a much rather getting a cage and fights a guy. It put me in their pleas. Because my handshake armpits all sweat and everything right before I get up there. Oh, and that TED talk was, I was in the, it was at war with University in the UK.

And they put me in the infirmary the night before because I had an over one with three Temperature again. They said man, you got a flu Well, that was actually I was going to Congo right after that talk And that was my third bout with malaria But it was actually because it That's what it turned into I did the Ted talk on the second day of malaria my third time. Oh my god I was shit and luckily I went to Congo right after because trying to get treated for

malaria in the West isn't as easy as getting it or as good as getting treated with malaria where they have it and where the doctors worked out. So it didn't work out well for me. But I actually hadn't, I wasn't bit by mosquito. It was because I just fought and I had been worn down and my immune system had been shot from the Denge fever and the black water fever. Oh, that was brutal where I didn't urinate for five full days. My kidneys were failing and they were shilling.

And whenever I finally did, like our mic right here that's just solid black, that's what my urine looked like. It's freaking. Oh shit. I think it's like one in, it's either one in four, one and two people pass that get it And so it was it was brutal, but uh, but yeah, so

Narlie you're just talking about the Speaking in public and yeah, the TED talk and what that must have been like for you I honestly think that that we can parly that in this it's only reason I'm doing it because it is that number one fear, but we can make a real difference sharing the story and sharing that, hey, it's not about, we've actually changed to where we don't take volunteers there because that's not what's the answer. It's not the answer to say, hey, we have these people that are now employed and have their own job and it's their business and they've now become the black belts or the answer. It's not the answer to say, hey, we have these people that are now employed and have their own job and it's their business and they've now become the black belts or the professionals. And let's take over a group full of white belts or amateurs to go there

and to drill a well for them in our employees or the guys that it's their job, their business, they're the owners. That is efficient. That's sufficient to say, hey, you guys sit and watch us do this. Or you teach these pictures. So I can take pictures and show that I'm helping out, right? Yeah, yeah. Or teach these guys to drill one well for a week or two, and then they're never going to do it again. So no, but it's been really cool to see. Even combining the passion that,

so the purpose is fight for the free out. And I still have such a huge passion for fighting. And it take the five years off to come back to the sport, which I don't know, there might be one or two other guys that have done that, and I don't know how successful it's been after a five-year layoff not doing anything. But to be able to... That's an eternity, dude, when you're a pro fighter. Oh, man, it was.

An athlete. An athlete, period. Yeah. Coming back to the sport was probably the... So drilling the wells is the toughest manual labor I've done but toughest physical feet would be after five years two months of zero training To come back and fight and I did it like a six-week

Notice wow, oh well. I was actually I had a 12-week camp planned, but Corruption in the Congo where they're taking my five-year visa away, I had to go back real quick and spend three weeks there. And then whenever I was there, that was taking my training camp down to nine weeks, which is still a good amount for a training camp. But then all of a sudden, yeah, they shrunk the fight time down three weeks, they moved it up three weeks. Wow.

So then I'll send them in Congo. They're like, hey, your fight's been moved up from September 15th or something 20th to August 28th or something like that. So I was like, oh man, I gotta get back now. Such a testament though to your priorities though, because even something that you've talked about, I mean, so passionate about fighting and you loved to still do that, that that still became a priority

that, because you easily could've just said, ah, fuck it, I gotta fight, man, I'm in the middle of my camp, and I'm sure everybody would understand. Like, I mean, I don't think anyone would be like, we can't expect him to come back and solve this problem when he's got a fight camp. Well, has your motivation, has your, like, that internal driving factor when you're fighting?

Has it changed from when you fought before? Oh, yeah. So now who you're fighting for? Oh, them, man. Yeah, I mean, as a fighter, you got to be able to fight for yourself too. But at the same time, like it's, that is dwarfed by I get to fight for them that I get to my win bonus coming back. I talked with my wife, Emily, and said, Hey, babe, every time I fight, you know, I have this past and I'm going back into this world that is, it's

putting myself at risk to one to fight, but two, like to be back into this world that is, it's putting myself at risk to one to fight, but two, like to be back in that world that, you know, winter lose, I had a reason to either celebrate or to either numb myself right after with the addictions. Like, I got to surround myself with good people the entire time. I can't be left alone in that world. can't be left alone in that world. And yeah, and then I don't know, being able to fight for them and actually even say the wind bonus goes to the cause and we get to drill wells every time.

And my sponsors, when they sponsor me, they're actually sponsoring them in the Congo. So yeah, I've been a part of a new startup company that's this, it's called Eco Survivor, the website just launched, Eco Survivor.com. Excellent. And it's this outdoor tech gear company that heard my story that already had a working relationship where they donated to WaterFour. They had me come in and speak. I was like, you know,

speaker at a vent. I'm like, oh crap. Our guy who does like to speak, you speak a lot. I'm speaking. Oh man, dude, it's been nuts. And I went in there and talked. And afterwards, they brought me into a room and said, hey, Justin, this is what we've been thinking about. And they had these outdoor lanterns that were so cool and our teams all using them now in the Congo and all over in those 16 nations.

And they're testing all the products that we're coming up with that are waterproof, weather resistant. They stand up to the elements really well. Bluetooth speakers and battery packs and walkie talkies, walkie talkies that are battery packs and blue two speakers and finding these ways and headlamps and flashlights that are all extremely durable. But eco survivor told me, it's so cool to see the companies that give back 1% 2%, 3% 5%, but eco survivor is doing 50% of the brand back to fight for the forget.

That's huge, man. Yeah, they have a team of 40 people working on this. And they're going to support them. And then they're going to support us. Let's plug that side of him. Yeah, what is it? EcoSurvivor.com. EcoSurvivor.com and what's so cool about it is you go to the website and you'd probably

think it's just a non-profit website. Only on the website right now is the lanterns, because those are at market already, and people can buy them online. And then we're gonna make a big push on Amazon and start releasing products. As we know that they are, they're ready. They're ready to really stand up to the Congolese rainforest. And then, so anyone here, but it's really cool because the price points are really affordable for the every day

I don't know adventure here. It makes sense. How how else can people help? You know with what you're doing. Yeah, so I would say because we we just start implementing the hey no more Volunteers and we've only taken two two people from our staff at Waterford to Congo with me. And that's what I love. We're really protecting them there to be able to do it for themselves. But man, spread in the word, getting that out there. When people buy my book from our website, FightForTheForgotten.org, all the proceeds of that go to the cause.

Wow. That not on Amazon or Barnes and Noble does it do that, but on our website it does. And then, yeah, people can donate if they want. There's that World Water Day campaign where we are trying to get that $50,000 to really change that community in Rwanda so that we can also learn from it

and do that in the Congo as well. But man, even a bite-sized amount, so that would be like a one-time gift so we could go to World Water Day at Water 4 in Donate. Or if someone gave $25 a month, which can be a real sacrifice for some or it could be a few Starbucks, you know, sacrifice that a couple times a day or a couple times a month. A couple times a sacrifice for some or it can be a few Starbucks, you know sacrifice that a couple times a day Or a couple times a month a couple times a day for some people But that changes the lives of 15 people 25 dollars a month over the course of a year That would give people clean water for the rest of their life We believe because the average water well in last 11 months in Africa

But but we train the locals to repair it. And it's affordable and sustainable. So they have relationships with the communities and they get paid to come back out because we teach the community to put something away to repair it. And it's affordable, the way that we do it. Very cool.

So, where do they go for that? Is there a website that you can go with? Yeah, fightforthofregaten.org and there's a donate button. And so if you want to give the World Water Day campaign, that would really help. It would be a huge boost. Or if you really want to come in, I think we're calling it Team Watermark. So make your mark on the water crisis.

And that's the monthly giving club. And when people do that, if it's, I don't know, it's $5 or $10, you get like a key chain and a sticker and like $25. I think you get a T-shirt, fight for the free-out and T-shirt, and then like for 50, I think you get a Sinia book, insinia T-shirt, and you get like keychain and sticker and stuff like that.

But it really makes an impact, man. All I know is that, man, $1 a day is what they're living on, and $25 goes so far. So if you do that every month, that's huge. Well, definitely make sure. So all our listeners know that all the links for all the stuff that we've talked about.

We have a show now, we'll be in the show notes on the website so you guys can go directly to all these. Yeah, excellent brother. I tell you, we get the opportunity to meet a lot of really cool people, but you've got to be one of the coolest. There's definitely an energy about you and what you're doing is powerful. You're doing that.

Very, very powerful. So you know, that's why we all hugged you when you came in because we knew some of the stuff you were doing and it's hard. It is tough. We talked about being tough guys, but it's very difficult to not get emotional hearing some of these stories and what you're doing in the bravery.

So, I mean, just from MindPump, we appreciate what you're doing out there. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you, man. Thank you, definitely. Listen, if you like MindPump, you can leave us a review on iTunes.

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