Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 573: Using Light Therapy to Increase Testosterone, Fade Scars & Stretch Marks, Improve Skin Tone & Texture & Improve Athletic Performance with Joovv Co-Founders Scott Nelson & Justin Strahan

Episode Date: August 14, 2017

In this episode, Sal, Adam & Justin speak with Joovv co-founders Scott Nelson & Justin Strahan. Joovv specializes in red light/infrared technology that seems to have a multitude of health benefits. Studies have shown that light therapy can increase testosterone levels, fade scars & stretch marks, improve skin tone & texture, aid in weight loss, reduce joint pain & inflammation and improve athletic performance. Everyone at Mind Pump is putting it to the test with one of their full body units and the results will be discussed in an upcoming episode. Want to join us in this test? Joovv makes it easy with a 60-day money back guarantee. Go to www.joovv.com/mindpump for $25 off your purchase. How did they start their company? (5:30) Justin’s wife got him into red light therapy Wavelength, the intensity of light They talk about what red light was used for? (9:20) Health conditions In the studies you do see, do you see an individual variance between the people that use it? (12:00) What is red light? (13:25) Enhances cellular function How much red light do we get from sunlight? (16:22) Near-infrared Any damaging effects from near infrared therapy? (17:35) No tanning effect How are people using it now? (18:25) Aid with recovery Increase testosterone Skin Issues Different protocols? Hacks you have played with? Their opinion of infrared saunas? (24:10) How deep does this light penetrate? (28:20) What are the exciting studies they have seen? (32:25) What does a typical treatment look like? (36:40) How long have the guy's been in business? (37:15) Started in the beauty realm Bio-hackers took it to a new level Professional athletes 60 day no hassle return policy What can people expect in the short/long term with the benefits from red light therapy? (40:18) What different devices do they have? / How do they use them in their own lives? (41:31) What are the bio-hackers using this therapy for? (50:35) Would you like to be coached by Sal, Adam & Justin? You can get 30 days of virtual coaching from them for FREE at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Get our newest program, MAPS Prime Pro, which shows you how to self assess and correct muscle recruitment patterns that cause pain and impede performance and gains. Get it at www.mindpumpmedia.com! Get MAPS Prime, MAPS Anywhere, MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, MAPS Aesthetic, the Butt Builder Blueprint, the Sexy Athlete Mod AND KB4A (The MAPS Super Bundle) packaged together at a substantial DISCOUNT at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Make EVERY workout better with MAPS Prime, the only pre-workout you need… it is now available at mindpumpmedia.com Have Sal, Adam & Justin personally train you via video instruction on our YouTube channel, Mind Pump TV. Be sure to Subscribe for updates. Get your Kimera Koffee at www.kimerakoffee.com, code "mindpump" for 10% off! Get Organifi, certified organic greens, protein, probiotics, etc at www.organifi.com Use the code “mindpump” for 20% off. Go to foursigmatic.com/mindpump and use the discount code “mindpump” for 15% off of your first order of health & energy boosting mushroom products. Add to the incredible brain enhancing effect of Kimera Koffee with www.brain.fm/mindpump 10 Free sessions! Music for the brain for incredible focus, sleep and naps! Also includes 20% if you purchase! Please subscribe, rate and review this show! Each week our favorite reviewers are announced on the show and sent Mind Pump T-shirts! Have questions for Mind Pump? Each Monday on Instagram (@mindpumpradio) look for the QUAH post and input your question there. (Sal, Adam & Justin will answer as many questions as they can)

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND I'm glad that we finally got somebody like this that could actually get this clear for me because I have wondered about this whole red light thing for quite some time. So Jeff friends that use it already. So the company's Juve, that's J-O-O-V-V, and apparently they have the best red light therapy products. Now, I'm extremely skeptical, and I question them quite a bit in this episode

because I want to learn more about it and I'm testing it and we all are actually, we actually got, they left us one of their big, like the top of the top line farce. It's very, very bright. And we're testing it out, but Ben Greenfield's where's by it. Apparently, and I'm not joking here, this is true now, this is what they say, the red light,

if you shine it on your testicles, can raise testosterone. Among other things, and that's what's actually made of why would you not want that? Exactly. But that's not the main use for it. Apparently, if you shine it, it goes on your skin. No, these tools have been around for a long time. And anybody who's had physical therapy

has probably had this used on there. Were they are doing the red light infrared over you? It looks like you're doing like an ultrasound on you or whatever. And it's this big thing right now with the biohackers. They're the ones that have made it popular. So they've appeared in a lot of the podcast talking about this.

So we've done a better job of explaining the science behind it. Because before I didn't really know too much, but it's refreshing to hear that. That always helps to see beyond. Well, helps, you know, to see beyond. Well, I used to talk shit about this stuff. Yep. And, and I felt a little bad at first,

but after I talked to the guys that didn't feel that bad because there are a lot of people in structures. There's a lot of people scamming people on it because there is good science behind this, but it does matter the wavelengths and what type of red light you're using. Yeah, that's the part that blew me away. You can't just get a red bulb, right?

And that's where, you know, I knew it was like, this is gonna be too gimmicky. Now you see them everywhere all over Amazon, but they're like, no, no, no, and he breaks down the science behind it. What is proven? And then, yes, there are a lot of bullshit ones that are out there.

Very few people are putting medical grade red light therapy out there. Yeah, so we're testing it out ourselves. And we talk about, you know, this our skepticism, skepticism. Hey, there we go. Yeah, I like it. I like new words. You like that?

About their product and why it's different and all that stuff. So it's a pretty interesting episode. We get into the science of red light therapy. The two people we're talking to are Scott Nelson and Justin straight-hand Also after we were done with it. They left us one. We said look We're gonna be talking about this stuff and if we like it of course anything we like we're gonna promote What do we you know what's going on? How can we work with you guys? And so they gave us a discount code for mind pump listeners So here's what you do if you're interested in red light therapy if you've heard it on Ben Greenfield

You listen to this episode you you wanna give it a shot. They have 60 days, I said sexy. I don't know what's on your mind. 60 days, or money. I'm gonna put that guarantee. Right, so you can literally test it. And they said you'll know within a couple weeks and just return it.

So you can't get any better than that. Go to juv.com, so this J-O-O-V-V.com forward slash mind pump, and then use the discount code mind pump all one word, and you'll get 25%. Did you tell them to the, the skin, $25. $25, yeah, it's $25. Did you tell them the skin benefits too? Because that's another, I mean, it's, well, that was the big one. The big one was people really noticed benefits on their skin. And so, I know you're gonna test it. Well, this is what is, so physical therapy.

What I'm familiar with at least. And so, when he was talking about this, I have seen it used in physical therapy. And then I've also seen it like at my girl's place where she goes for, you know, she sees one of those, what do you call them, an esthetician, right? And she pulls one of these things out.

So, they actually, some of these high-end places will have these red lights they use. Now, again, I don't know, I don't know the quality of what those places are using. I do now understand what the top notch quality looks like and also how expensive it is. Like, there's a drastic difference in price on the real deal versus someone that's using kind of a knockoff to try and you know

piggyback off of the science on the red lines. There's definitely something you need to make clear because you know some of these can go for a lot of money and right and he explained other companies that are in the space that are like astronomically more in comparison. So you know if you look at all those factors, that's kind of what I can't and I can't bring it down You'll these guys in the show will you'll get a chance to hear exactly what you're looking for So if you are someone who's interested pay attention. Well, McColle is the one that's that member Well, he's who turned us first. Well, that's why we're here I mean, we first got turned on by McColle

We all have a lot of respect for him and that made us research. We got a lot of DMs. I know I did as far as like, I've asked for the, yeah, Mercol episode. And they said, what do you guys think about the red light? Like where should we get? And should we get them Amazon? So yeah, we ended up connecting with these guys. So again, it's j0ovv.com, 4-slash mind pump and the code is mind pump

one word for $25 off. So without any further ado, here we are talking to the Juve foundersers and Creators, Scott Nelson and Justin Strahan. So how did this all start? Give us a little rundown of what got you guys involved with this company before we get into the science. Yeah, absolutely.

So actually, this is my wife, Melissa, that first came across therapy called Red Light Therapy, and it was out a local tanning salon that had beds converted for that purpose. So the bulbs basically were all red, and she'd read about some of the cool benefits for skin health as well as overall health benefits. So she signed up for membership and did that for a couple months,

and was really impressed with the results. She noticed stretch marks that she'd had for several years starting to fade and also had some severe eczema that she struggled with for a long time that was virtually disappeared in a matter of like six to eight weeks. So she was pretty pumped about it and one of the initial challenges was with our family and how busy we are to try to make it over to us on every single day for this treatment, as you can imagine. So that in addition to the cost, let her to start scouring the internet to try to find something

that she could use at home. So she was quite frustrated by what she found, because really the only things on the market were these small handheld devices where really designed to use on your face, and you'd have to take a significant amount of time just to do your face a little alone to try to do other portions of your body. So she was frustrated initially and then she stumbled across some websites that showed these homemade devices and they had used infrared heat lamps like the 250 watt 250 watt infrared heat lamps and

so she came to me with these kind of do-it-yourself guides and with my engineering background You know it was put on the top of my honey de-list. It was like hey, you know, we need to It's not like build a fence or fix the door and the light ball is like hey honey Could you just invent this thing for me real quick? We do I got this and it was pretty you know the designs were fairly simple And it wasn't too overwhelming. It's like yeah, you know, I'm sure we can figure this out And I didn't really dig into the science. It was kind of more like okay, so you hook up these bulbs and wire it together and rig it up and you know Push the power button, you know, so we set that up and our bathroom and she was excited about it

And and it put off a lot of heat and it seemed bright But she wasn't getting the same effect that she had with ethycelan with the red light therapy you know kind of taining bed. So she started to kind of dig into it further and she she wasn't convinced that like where these the right bulbs was this the same sort of thing that she was experiencing in the in the salon and encouraged me to dig into the science. And I was quite skeptical to be honest, but she convinced me to dig into it. And I want to start looking into it. I was really floored by the fact that there is literally

hundreds and hundreds of published research studies on this field of light therapy or the technical term, which is photo biomonjulation. So I realized, hey, this is like a real thing. It's legit. I think this might work. There's actual science behind it. So I started to dig into that and realized that, you know,

there's really nothing on the market that's designed to do this treatment for your whole body. So I dug in and found basically there's three main factors. The wavelength of the light is very important. And then obviously the intensity of the light is very important. And then obviously the intensity of the light. So both of those things, the infrared heat lamps kind of fail on both of those areas, because they deliver a wide range of wavelengths. And they're also not nearly as intense as what you can get with the devices that are intended

for medical grade intensity, which namely LED. So let's get into that for a second. It's got a, there's a long history of science supporting red light or infrared light. Let's talk about that for a second before we get into what you ended up designing. One of that first start, one of that research first start, what is it used for medicinal?

Sure. In the early days, it was called low-level laser therapy or LLLT. And they used lasers at specific wavelengths and they would treat a wide range of health conditions, everything from osteoarthritis to skin conditions, to wound healing. And how long ago was this?

I was just gonna say, how long? How long? Yeah, this is like back in the 60s, 50s, even before that. Now was this FDA-approved treatments or was this at say, how long? How long was this? Yeah, this is like back in the 60s, 50s, even before that. Now was this like FDA approved treatments, or was this at the time like wellness, you know, stuff or was kind of on the fringe? It was medical driven.

I'm not sure if it was like FDA approved, or if that was really basically gone through with FDA back then, but it was something that was done in the medical community, you know, not necessarily do it yourself at home type thing. It was lasers, so the cost was way up there. You know, you're talking about a small treatment area. You have to be careful because then the possibility of heating tissue and so forth. And it really wasn't until the advent of some research in the early 90s that was funded by NASA

that looked into the possibility of you using LEDs for the same purposes. So in the past two decades, this really been more widely known and widely accepted that LEDs can have the same benefits and effects as the lasers. Only now you can treat a much larger area of your body with a much less expensive device. And this is still an early science. I mean, you're not going to find big, huge companies, big pharma companies, big medical device, giants like Medtronic or Boston Scientific in this space right now, but it's definitely emerging.

And the science of photo biomodulations, kind of a technical term, try to say in that three times. Maybe it might be a test before the end of the show. But why do you think that is? Why do you think that is? Well, it's a good question. We ask the same question to Dr. Michael Hamlin,

who's a professor at Harvard, arguably one of the world's leading researchers in this field. We're fortunate enough to have him on our scientific advisory board, but I spent my entire career before Juve and the In the Medical Device Space with some of those companies I just mentioned.

And it was very surprising to me that there weren't really a lot of big players in this arena yet. So I asked him the same question. Why so? Like what's the deal? He's a little bit unsure. He's definitely seeing it emerge. There's a lot more money being thrown at clinical studies for light therapy or photo biomodulation, but ultimately they cost a ton of money. And so there has to be a legitimate pathway with the big enough market for a big pharma company, a big device company to fund a clinical trial

And so they may that may happen here at you know in the coming years now the studies that you do see do you I see a Major individual variance and in the people like is there a difference with Skin tones and they're different with age is it different with the time that you you use it like you see a lot of variance from From from each person that's using the light. Yeah, I would say the studies vary quite a bit in terms of even the wavelengths to some extent, the intensity, and also the length of treatment or the total amount of energy delivered. I think one of the reasons that our device actually works better than I really expected to. Quite honestly, is a lot of the research for some of the benefits the photo biomodulation has done with a fairly low amount of intensity or low amount of total energy delivered,

somewhere in the neighborhood of four to five jewels per square centimeter. But there's also research specifically for deeper tissue, such as benefits such as muscle recovery, joint healing, where you're seeing total energy upwards of 60 or even 100 jewels. This is what Dr. McCullough talked about when we interviewed him and he's actually what led us to you guys, what I was so fascinated with. What I'm going to do from his recommendation is I'm going to train the shit out of my legs From his recommendation is I'm gonna train the shit out of my legs and I'm going to Red he recommended I'm gonna read I'm gonna read I'm gonna read like one side and not the other side

And I want to see if I actually can feel a difference the recovery. He claims that I will He says that it actually helps that much in recovery that I should actually feel the difference which I'm pretty Excited to try that out. Well, let's back up for a second. What is red light? How does it work? Let's just give a basic rundown, because a lot of people listening right now are probably nodding and thinking, what are they talking about? That's right.

So at a high level, light therapy is basically enhances cellular, your cellular function. If you want to go a little bit deeper than that, there's four phases of cellular respiration. There's a wide variety of theories as to how red light and nearing for red light actually works at a cellular level. But most researchers in this field

have kind of gravitated towards one theory which involves the fourth phase of cellular respiration. There's a, when you talk about healthy cells, there's a process in that fourth phase of cellular respiration where NADH binds with oxygen to form ATP synthase, which then is a precursor to ATP, and I think probably most of your listeners are somewhat familiar with that. Yeah, do you have a sense of phosphate? Yeah, exactly. So, when our cells are stressed, when there's oxidative stress, nitric oxide actually binds

to an enzyme called cytochrome C oxidase and that fourth phase of cellular respiration, which halts the production of ATP synthase, which then halts the production of ATP. And so red and near infrared light, long story short, to kind of come full circle on this. Red and near infrared light, with the specific wavelengths that Justin mentioned, the right intensity breaks that bond between nitric oxide and cytochrome sioxidase which restores healthy cellular function. And so at a cellular level, you're restoring some of those natural metabolic processes, and which is why this therapy has such wide variety of benefits, you know, such as muscle recovery and, you know, really from joint pain, but it's literally almost

everything under the sun in terms of it. So is it raising then a matric oxide levels and the blood as well? Is it breaking a bond there for making it more free to do the vasodilating effects and all that? Correct. And a lot of our customers, you know, what we'll actually comment on that benefit where especially those are a little bit more in tune with that sort of effect, you know, when they've, you know, whether they've taken a nino supplement before, an arginine supplement before, something like that, they can tell the,

the vasodilating effect. Now, how they looked at like free radical production from that, because I know elevated nitric oxide can cause elevations and free radicals, have they looked at if there's a connection between those two things? Yeah, so actually, red light, I mean, when you look at different wavelengths of light,

oftentimes you'll see something like blue light and sometimes alone or in conjunction with red light with something like blue light, you're actually causing more free radicals or more reactive oxygen species to develop. Whereas red light, most of the time, you'd want to use that in conjunction with something like blue light to help restore some of those natural metabolic processes at a cellular level.

And so it actually helps induce normal cellular function. Now in nature, we would be exposed to red light from the sun. How much of the sunlight is coming at us in the form of red light? You guys know, or what's the? Yeah, so sunlight obviously has a wide range of wavelength. So you have from the UV spectrum up to zero to 400 nanometers, then you have visible light between 400 and 700 nanometers. And then you have the infrared spectrum from 700 all the way up in the north of 3000 nanometers.

And that infrared spectrum, that's even broken up into three ranges. So near infrared, which is between 700 and 1300 nanometers, is where you also get some of these effects. So part of the red spectrum and part of the lower end of the near infrared spectrum is where these specific wavelengths fall. So for example, our combo model that has two different wavelengths, the red that's visible light at 660 nanometers and then the near infrared wavelengths at 850 nanometers.

And both of those specific wavelengths are optimized for boosting that cellular function or specifically that side of the come sioxidase absorption. Is there any potential of negative effects like you would get from ultraviolet light or UVB where if you get exposed to it, you get adaptations like tanning, but then of course you can burn or cause problems.

Is there anything you need to worry about with infrared? They really are very few contraindications that have been shown with red light therapy or near infrared wavelengths. There's some limited, I guess, controversy, I guess you could say, over certain skin conditions, such as hyperpigmentation issues, where there's maybe a field that feels like it's beneficial and then some people that feel like it hasn't been beneficial. But by and large there's really no adverse side effects to be concerned with. There's zero in UV wavelengths in there, so you're not going to get any of that taming effect or burning effect from it. Very interesting. So how are people using them mostly now?

We get, that's our biggest challenge. It's a huge range. We have everything from people that are using it to help with joint pain and arthritis. We have professional athletes such as Devon Kanard and NFL using it for recovery and offseason and during training camp right now. And then you have people that are interested in reducing wrinkles on their face, you know, that are... Don't forget Ben Greenfield's poll. Yeah, that's right.

Don't forget Ben Greenfield and I'll be Marcus, you know, for the... Right. So that, yeah. Are there any studies supporting that, by the way? Because I know we went to Ben's house and Ben is a very interesting individual. And he had me, I had all these devices on my head and I had this light thing up my nose and all these weird things. And then he shows us this big panel of red lights. That's like kind of on the floor and angle.

And he's like, You said, put your balls up to it. Yeah, you go basically stand. Absolutely, I'm down for that. Because if you take your pants off and everything, we all stand over this. We all stand over this. And shine it on your balls.

He goes, it'll increase your testosterone levels. And it was in front of his computer. So I'm assuming he does this quite a bit. Is there, what's the science behind that? Is showing actual results or is this all anecdote? There is actually studies. I mean, I'd say it's early on. There's certainly not an overwhelming number of studies,

but the theory as far as how it boosts the lady cells and the production of testosterone with the specific wavelengths of red and near infrared light. There's certainly some early promising studies that do point to that fact and even sperm health as well. What about helping people with vitamin D deficiencies and things like that? If we're getting similar benefits like from the sun, it sounds like, is that why like maybe

some with eczema is getting help too? I would say the main thing that it would help with as far as vitamin D, it's not going to directly help your body produce it like the UV wavelengths do, but what it is going to do is help your body to be in a healthier position to be able to take on UV light and form from the sun and help your body be able to metabolize that and turn that into vitamin D. Is this the same light that the physical therapist would use with the infrared, where they would put it on your arm, if you're hurt or whatever, same stuff? It's very similar.

It's very similar. The main difference with this is you can use it at home. It's using LEDs, so you're not having to worry about lasers where you could potentially overheat tissue. So that'd be the main difference. Okay. Because I know that physical therapists have been using those for a long time.

So I know that there's some medical approved, I would say approved medical uses. Sure. What are the approved medical uses for infrared? For infrared and near infrared light? Yeah, when you look at, when you search like the 510K clearances for within the FDA databases, they're pretty limited to be honest. And that's largely because all know, clearances for, you know, within the FDA databases, they're pretty limited,

to be honest. And that's largely because all of these, all of these clearances are based on predicate devices. Meaning, they were never really studied in the clinical trial. You're just basing it off an already or a pre-approved device. So, peri-arrowable to wrinkles, pain relief, that kind of thing is what you typically see at, you know, when the FDA stamps an indication on a certain device. But I would encourage any listeners that are skeptical, you're probably rightfully so, but if you do a search on PubMed for, you know, light therapy or photo biomodulation

for X, Y or Z, I mean, the results are almost endless in terms of the number of clinical studies published on this therapy. It's actually pretty remarkable to think that there's not, why this is not more prevalent just because the number of studies is almost overwhelming. So yeah, I mean, if anyone's skeptical, I wouldn't blame them. We were both skeptical too, but yeah, I mean, dig through some of that stuff. Is there different protocols for what I'm using it for?

So if I'm using it for joint pain versus my balls versus my psoriasis, what I mean, is there is there different protocols on how much and how long I should use it for? Yeah, it really comes down to total energy delivered. And a big part of that is the depth of the tissue that you're trying to treat. So if you're treating your skin tissue, it really doesn't take a very high dosage. So with our device, I mean literally four to five minutes at, say, eight to 12 inches away. But for most of our customers, they're interested in an overall health and cellular health

in the long-term benefits, as well as kind of the short-term ramifications, whether it's reducing joint pain, helping with muscle recovery, those types of benefits. And that really takes a higher intensity of light or a total energy delivered. So for those types of benefits, we recommend a 10-minute treatment about six inches away from our device, which equals about 60 tools of energy delivered per square centimeter. So, have you guys hacked this where you pair it with anything else too, like fasting and doing that

or doing it inside of a sauna or is there some hacks that you guys have played with that tend to make it even better? That's a great question. The latter point you brought up is one that comes up quite a bit. Can you use this inside of a sauna or is there evidence to support

that you should do it before after sauna use? There's not really any definitive information and some of like Dr. Ron DePathric who's published a fair amount of content recently on sauna and the mechanism of action for saunas. When you look at sort of what's happening and you're inducing a heat response in your body, it seems like in theory,

you might wanna use something like light therapy or photo biomodulation after a sauna, after sauna usage, complete theory. At this point, there's never really, there's not really much scientific evidence to support whether or not you should use it at the same time or after, but based on kind of looking at the mechanism of action,

it would seem like you'd wanna use it either before or after. So do you think it's kind of looking at the mechanism of action, it would seem like you'd want to use it either before or after. So do you think it's kind of a reached in this trend of infrared sonas that are happening right now? I like to hear your guys' opinion on that. Go ahead and speak open, it's my pump. Don't hold any punches back. I want to know, it's like a trend right now. It's like the hot thing.

You know, Justin wrote a nice piece on son of therapy versus light therapy. Okay, we'll talk to him. Yeah, I want to hear. Yeah. There's unfortunately a lot of misinformation about sonas infrared. I think most of us when we hear the term infrared, we think of that's like a wavelength or like this near a range of wavelengths, but actually near infrared or infrared wavelengths can be broken down into three bands. You have IRA between 700 to 1300, IRB 1300 to 3000 nanometers, and then IRC, which

is wavelengths longer than 3000 nanometers. And there's fundamentally significant differences in how your body reacts to those wavelengths. So wavelengths longer than 3000 nanometers, for example, are felt much more as a radiant heat. And the reason for that is they're the moisture that's in our skin or in our cell tissues rapidly absorbs that energy. So in other words, it's not penetrating like slowly

being absorbed or absorbed by the body. It's being felt as a kind of a very intense warm heat that you feel on your skin. So the example I like to give for this is with sunlight, for example, you're out on outside of a hot sunny day and you feel that that really warm intense sunlight. And then you have a cloud that blows over and blocks the sun.

You notice the light doesn't really change. It's pretty much just the same intensity as far as how bright it is outside. But the far infrared wavelengths are being blocked by the moisture in that cloud, and that's why you feel that heat and just get shut off like a switch. Interesting.

So those wavelengths, so there's basically significant differences in how your body responds to those. And so, yeah, oh, go ahead. Yeah, so for SANA's for inducing heat, those longer wavelengths are much more effective at producing that response of raising the temperature of your skin and cell tissues. So what our devices do in terms of photobiomodulation are much different.

There's very little heat that's delivered. You're talking, you know, significantly different wavelengths where we're near infrared at 850 nanometers virtually delivers zero heat. And it's a totally different mechanism of action from a biological. So that makes you feel like these guys have taken that science and they've piggybacked off of that to make you feel piled on it. Right, right. Yeah. To make you feel like you're getting those benefits in the Sun, but you're really not.

Well, it's interesting. I'm thinking about this from a marketability standpoint. You find it challenging because like say your sonas like the person the individual feels something like they're going into kind of relax and and heat up versus like what you know the benefits from it if it's not a meeting heat is something really happening. So you guys run into that. Well, and we certainly don't knock sonas. I mean in that that post that Scott mentioned and we talk about the benefits that have been proven from stonotherapy.

So primarily, the benefits are related to cardiovascular function. Or the cold contrast. Inducing heat and heat stress and enzymes that are produced to react to that. But it's just totally different from photo biomodulation. So as you point out, they kind of piggybacked, and they'd like to throw around terms like

mitochondrial function and cellular health. And, like, technically, is there some benefits there? Well, probably. But it's not the same thing in terms of what's happening at a mitochondrial level. And, you know, the cellular respiration, electron chain transport that's been proven with photo-biomodulation, where it literally has to be those specific wavelengths. So, you know, example would be the Nearing heat lamp, for example, some companies that are using those and kind of marketing them as a near infrared sauna.

As far as the wavelengths that are applicable for the cellular benefits, you're talking less than 2% to 4% of the total energy that's being delivered. So, in theory, you would get some benefit, but you'd have to be in front of it for like 37 straight hours to have the same effect. So those red suns, it's like the branch chanomino acids of supplements, bro. Yeah, totally. For all my listeners, I can't put all that together. That's what that means. It's like the branch chanomino acids of fucking stuff. So I'm sprinkling a lot of new things.

So how deep does this light penetrate? Because if I have joint pain and I'm shining this light on it, obviously my skin is going to get it. I like to get deep penetration. Exactly. How deep is it going to get into the joint? Like, how does that work? Sure. That's a good question.

So the two wavelengths that we use, the red at 660 nanometers, virtually has the same cellular function as the 850, but the red is absorbed more quickly by the skin tissues, so it doesn't penetrate as deep, whereas the near infrared does penetrate deeper, and that's where you see this clinical studies in terms of muscle recovery. So an example would be a study that was done on nearly 400 collegiate athletes over a period of 15 months that were basically taken off the playing field because they had some sort of an injury, whether it's a ligament, strain, sprain, contusion, you name it that took them off the field.

So they divided them into groups. The group that received the typical therapies and treatments were back on the field in about 20 days. The group that received the near infrared treatments were back on the field in less than half that time at about nine days. Wow. And now the key there is the intensity of that treatment. So they were getting 50 milliwads per square centimeter for a total delivery of 60 jewels, which you get in 10 minutes with our combo devices. So unfortunately, a lot of the other players in the space either don't publish the intensity of the light

or the total energy delivered. And it's kind of a shame because they do a disservice to the science that does exist for the therapy. Do you guys see now this potentially kind of penetrating the market for like say with athletes doing ice baths, right? After you know rigorous session or like a game, do you see like this kind of coming into these facilities and maybe this can even take that kind of over?

Replace it or in conjunction? Well, just maybe conjunction, but I would think it would replace it, would it? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. Actually, I started doing some cold therapy where you're doing a nice cold bath. I was actually got out in the Pacific this morning for a little bit, but you're a brave soul. Yeah, no, but it's great. It's invigorating and there's certainly benefits

from cellular function from that as well, that cold therapy. I didn't have our advice with me at our spot this morning, but normally, I'd actually like to do the treatments right after the cold baths. So it's a good way to warm up. You get that, it's a slight warmth, it's not a ton of heat, but it's in conjunction with a therapy like that. I think there's definitely some synergistic effects there that are theoretically possible.

You bring a good point Justin though, because our devices fundamentally, when we first launched, they're more to be designed for use at home. So bringing a medical grade intensity to sort of your home. So everyone could use it on a daily basis, because the key with light therapy is consistency. You can't just use it once a week and expect to see significant results. And a lot of times it's just easier

for someone to use consistently at home. But since launching that, you know, those initial devices, we've seen, we've had a ton of inbound interest from practitioners from a wide variety of specialties. So chiropractors, functional medicine docs, you know, gyms, you know, all types of different arenas want us to customize certain setups with our devices

so they can incorporate those into their facilities. So we're definitely seeing a lot more of that type of interest with complimentary types of therapies, cryo being one of those. That's interesting, yeah, because you guys sort of focused a little bit more on the general public and trying to get at,

you know, how they could create this sort of rehabilitation or, you know, chronic joint pain or all those types of things. But now you're seeing there's even more potential in the athletic realm or the gym crowd. Well, especially if it's cutting it 50%. That's a big difference. 20 days to nine days is, especially when you talk about the professional level of sports.

I mean, that's a big deal. You get your athlete back on the field up. Are there some other studies like that? We're the more exciting ones that you guys have seen. Yeah, and when you look at the studies, there's not only there are a ton of them, but they're all over the place in terms of the, what the demographic of the participants was, what the researchers were trying to actually study, for what specific element, whether it was reducing inflammation from arthritis, was it muscle recovery, was it

restoring the capacity for that athlete to get back on the field, etc. So they're all over the place, and some of them are pretty well done, double blind placebo studies, not a ton of participants. You're rarely going to see stuff like the study that Justin mentioned where you've got 400 participants. Most of them are smaller in size, smaller in sample size, 40-ish, 30-to-40-ish. But most of them are pretty well done. Some of them are, most of them are prospective

in nature, not retrospective, which is another quality sign. But it's literally all over the place in terms of how these people or how these participants were studied. But at the end of the day, it comes back to which wavelengths were delivered. So was it red, was it near infrared light, etc.

And then also the intensity. So how many jewels of energy were delivered to these participants? And a lot of times, it was a decent amount of energy delivered. And what you can get maybe from the sun if you spend six hours a day outside, for example. But we always like to use the analogy of, you know, you can fill up your water jug in the morning with a with a drippy faucet and eventually fill it up. But why not have a faucet that actually works and fill up your, you know, your water jug in, you know, a tenth of the time? No, at what point if we're if we're using like the maximum or your guys' product, let's use

we're using your product, is there a point where that kind of peaks, right? Like after I've used it for 20 minutes, I'm not getting any real more added benefits, or does it just keep going? How does that work? Yeah, I would say there's a limit to what your cells can really metabolize and absorb and use. So, you know, once you get beyond maybe 12

or maybe 15 minutes on the high side for a treatment, beyond that, you're probably not going to get much additional benefits. You know, to back up to your question on studies, another one that's a pretty impressive one on performance was done on the quadriceps of athletes that were put through a training program. The group that did just the training program had a muscle growth of, I think, it was like 20% over the eight-week period. And then the group that received the light therapy, it was 30%.

So basically, like a 50% increase in that growth of the muscle. And they did that on peak torque, as well as the muscle thickness. So there's definitely some proven benefits in terms of peak performance using therapy, near infrared therapy prior to workouts, as well as a study showing benefits for recovery after the fact. So, you know, we've had people like Dr. Marcola talk to us about, you know, they've done

a workout and they know how they should feel the next day after that workout, but they do, they do a treatment with our device right afterwards and they wake up the next day in that workout, but they do a treatment with our device right afterwards and they wake up the next day and that's just not there. I'm excited to try, I mean, that's literally what I'm gonna do with it. The first thing I'm gonna do with it. You just do one leg, right?

Yeah, I'm gonna do one side. So I can tell the difference, right? Yeah, no, really. And I think if you were my husband, I think I'd want you to design me a bathroom that was all these red lights. So I could get out of my cold shower and I can be brushing my teeth,

I'm just kidding, it'd be knocking like, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I want from you, huh? That's my thoughts on red. That's my thoughts on it. Right, one stone. But going back to you one of your questions about treatment algorithm, do you use it before

after working out? Another study that the researchers looked at 10 athletes, just used light therapy before, actually it was a bicep exercise. So they actually induced use light therapy before, actually it was a bicep exercise. So they actually induced the light therapy on three different locations of the athletes biceps. And across three different measurements saw roughly anywhere from 50 to 60% greater peak performance

with those athletes. Before, before. Yeah, when training before. And so, and I think actually Dr. McCollum actually uses our device before and after his his weight training sessions like his heavy like this Well theoretically fits increasing ATP production and nitric oxide and makes sense to do it before a workout if you had to pick before or after That would be what I would think what is a typical treatment look like then if I get this device that I have it at home

What do you what do you, how long and how often? Ideally, you would do it daily. So kind of how it fits into your schedule, you know, different people obviously work out different times of the day. But if you wanted to do it, say before a workout, you know, you basically ideally do it on bare skin. So just get undressed and chill out,

whether you want to meditate or whatever it is, you do 10 minutes on the front of your body 10 minutes on the back and go go hit it interesting Okay, of course because you have to turn around make sure you get both sides of the body Fascinating so how long have you guys been in business now? Coming up on two years here before too long. So it's it's been It's been a wild ride for sure I mean that we initially started and really It's been a wild ride for sure. I mean, when you initially started and really

envision this being more of a beauty space type product because many of the existing products in the market were primarily for skin health and reducing wrinkles and spa treatments, that sort of thing. But thanks to the interest from really the biohacking community and the work that Scott's done on kind of the marketing side to reach out to folks like Ben Greenfield and yourselves and Aubrey Marcus. We've had a ton of interest. When did you guys see that turn? Because if you got into it that way, when did you guys realize,

like, oh shit, we got a whole nother group of people that are going to want this? Yeah, well, if Ben's listening to this, Ben, we owe a lot of thank you to him. He's been a good partner. But we saw pretty interesting inflection point when he started to use our device for a lot of other things beyond just for skin health. So we were just kind of chatting about this early. If you looked at our website a year ago, and you guys didn't know us from Joe,

you'd look at that and be like, I don't, this seems like something my girlfriend used or my wife would use, you know? And so it's definitely changed, but it's been an interesting ride as more and more people in the biohacking community we're seeing a lot more interest from competitive athletes,

not just in traditional sports like NFL, MLB, et cetera, but also Spartan race, the CrossFit folks, et cetera. So it's been interesting, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you typically see a lot faster results in that sort of arena. So if you hit your legs really hard, you kind of know, like, I'm not going to do squats again or heavy dead lives for another week, because my legs are torn up. If you start to see a noticeable improvement within a day or two days, it's like, wow, I mean, yeah, to me that when when Mercolo was saying it, because of course,

I think everybody, when you first hear this is pretty skeptical, right? Like, put some, put some red lights on my legs. I'm a carfester, sure, buddy. So, uh, but when he, he said, you know, put it to the test and that was the first thing that came to mind was like, man, I'll just train him really hard and I'll do one side. If I can, I know how sore I should be from a workout like that. I would think that I should be able to tell a different, or according to him, I should be able to tell a different.

That's pretty interesting. Yeah, and that's something that we typically recommend because we, I mean, by nature, a lot of people are going to be skeptical of this type of thing, but we always encourage them to do two things. One is just dig into the science a little bit. Even if you're not a science nerd, it's not like this may sound a little bit complex, but read a few articles and most people get up

to speed pretty quickly. And then two, we have a specifically, we have a 60-A, no hassle return policy. It feels like by a device, you don't like it within 60 days, return it for full refund and you're good to go. So that's something that we try to encourage people to take advantage of because, you know,

there's not a lot of awareness about this therapy, but there's a ton of signs to back it up. So we feel pretty confident that, you know, once people give it a shot, they'll see the results. So what can people expect in the short term and in the long term with using this on a regular basis? What are people reporting? You know, that's a fascinating thing.

And if you're not into reading about the science, I would definitely recommend you check out a review page and just read all the reviews from our customers. And you know, you can get that, you know, the real answer to that in their own words. But it's a huge range of benefits. So everything from, they, it reduces their stress, they can sleep better at night,

they feel more energy, they feel energy boost, you know, when they, when they use it reduces their stress, they can sleep better at night, they feel more energy, they feel energy boost, you know, when they, when they use it in the morning, they use it for the muscle recovery, testosterone production, we've had people literally do testing of their testosterone production before and after, and with them like documented results. So like what after like a week or something? This is what Ben claimed, don't you remember? Well, I remember him saying that, but I think I was actually somebody posted on his Instagram post that posted their test-aust-roan test.

I think it was maybe over a month, and he was only using our advice like two or three days, and we're like, man, why aren't you using this every day, man? All right. Wow, so how do the products come? Because the one that you guys have here in the studio right now is a big full body panel, is that the only way of getting it

or are there smaller versions? Yeah, so we have three different sizes. The one that we've launched with, what we call our original is our mid-sized device. It's 300 watts, about three feet long by eight inches wide. And then after that, we launched the, what we call our mini device. There was kind of ideal for people that are interested,

but it's just maybe too big of a plunge or financial investment with that original size. But since then, after all the interest that we've had from the biohacking community and professional athletes and the fitness audience, we launched what we call our max device, and that's what we brought here. So it's 480 LEDs, 960 watts, you know, as Auburn Mark has put it, it's bright as the devil's

glare. I mean, it's very bright. And just for those listening that aren't watching this on YouTube, if you compare all three sizes, that largest one, that max device. I'm about 5-10. It treats from my head to just above my ankle or so. So almost a full body device. That middle-sized unit will treat from like my head to maybe just below my groin, something like that. So up two-thirds of my body, hypothetically, and then that mini is really that mini device is head to just kind of below my clavicle. So that's kind of the variety of different treatment.

And now do the two of you change your own personal protocol up? Are you guys adjusting based off of your training or are you going on or do you guys kind of have a routine that like every morning when I get up, this is what I do, how do you guys utilize it? Yeah, I've got the combo max, the same one that you've got here. And I use that day, like I mentioned, I've been doing it after cold treatments. So after ice baths, I'd like to just chill out. I've actually got mine rigged over a massage table

so I can lay down while I do it. So which by the way, all of those max lights do come with posts so you can hang it horizontally, but everybody's kind of set up as a little bit different as far as hanging that so we don't actually have the hardware to hang it from your ceiling. So okay, my girl's massage therapist, so you got me thinking here.

So how far can I hang it over the bed? Like, does she be like massaging me while I'm getting this? Theoretically, ideally you would have it closer to you, so ideally you'd wanna have it lower down between like six to eight inches away from your body. It'd be pretty close. And we have some people that have used like a pulley system so you can raise it and lower it and you know, kind of get it right where you want it.

But it's definitely relaxing. I mean, you know, we talked with Joe Dastofana, who's a director of sport for Spartan. And the very first time he used it, he got back to us and he was just blown away. He's like, I don't know if this was just placebo effect or what, but I used it today when I got home and it was like, it just, it totally reduced my stress. I just was able to relax. I slept better that night. He's like, I don't know what, you know,

maybe it's just my imagination. We're like, oh, that's, you know, we get that all the time. Yeah, I'm envisioning this pulley system. I'm envisioning my girl massaging me, leaving me there afterwards and then putting the infrared over me like eight inches and let me kind of rest there for a good. Like a food warmer.

Yeah, like a microwave, right? Yeah, not too far off, but there isn't really a definitive protocol to, you know, we typically encourage people, whenever you can fit it into your daily routine. In about 10 minutes, you were saying? Yeah, I mean, that's, if you've got a problematic area, or if you're trying to really recover from a heavy squat workout, like we mentioned earlier,

you might want to go a little bit longer, but at 10 minutes, at about eight inches or so from our device, you're getting a clinically significant dose about six or seven jewels per minute. So at 10 minutes, that's about 60 or 70 jewels. And that's a healthy amount. And you guys said that it's actually healthy and good for the eyes, because that was the first thing that, when we first switched it

on, that, oh shit, probably should look at this. But you said that you could look into it. So no problem with the eyes, huh? Yeah, you know, we've talked, as Scott mentioned, Dr. Michael Hamlin on our advisory board, we've obviously quizzed him a little bit about this, but there's actually a significant amount of research showing benefits for eye health.

So just like almost every other cell in your body, your retinas have, cells have mitochondria and basically by these same specific wavelengths, you're able to restore healthy function. So it is actually a study showing benefits for people that have different types of degenerative eye disorders and that it can help reverse those Restore function. Well, earlier you gave a you gave an analogy and said it was using a particular device

Was equivalent to like six hours of the sun? Do you guys know what that would be for yours like 10 minutes on yours is equivalent to how much you would need to be exposed by the sun It's it's kind of hard to say a rule of thumb because sunlight varies so much from where you live, your latitude, time and year, everything. So it's kind of a tough comparison. I would say sunlight, you're probably in the neighborhood of this specific wavelengths for cellular function, you're probably in the neighborhood of three to maybe eight milliwatts per square centimeter and our devices at 100. So in the between maybe 20 to 50 times more intense of those specific wavelengths.

So it's kind of like a jumpstart of those wavelengths. So if you're in the sun all the time, then you might not, it'd be kind of difficult to compare for some people for those of us that live in the upper Midwest where you don't see the sun for seven months out of the year or you just don't have the time to fit it, getting a lot of sunlight in your daily schedule.

Or a few spills of ghosts like Justin. Yeah. Well, what you're listening, would you speculate that there's, and that's what I asked earlier about, certain types in the individual variance, like are you noticing there's types of people that are getting way more benefits than other people?

Like, if you're somebody who doesn't get a lot of sun, or are there certain people that seem to like, man, this really helps them, or certain people that it doesn't as much. It's hard to predict, honestly, because I think everybody's body is so different, they're health, a lot of times, a lot of people don't aren't even aware

of maybe how healthy they are, because they go out about the solid time. Most people that think they're good feel good don't know what great feels like and so they're just enormous. Or their body's, you know, compensating or dealing with things. So just because you don't have like a symptom that's like being, you know, shown like that day doesn't mean that you're, you know, doing, feeling that your body is healthy. So yeah, it's kind of a hard thing to predict. So,

what we encourage people is, you know, as far as the timeline and how soon to expect results, is like, everybody's body is different. So it's hard to predict that, but the research and the benefits for cellular health is, is, is pretty solid. So we're confident that it works, but how everybody is, how everybody's body is going to to respond is going to vary from person to person. On that note, Justin Strann's wife Melissa mentioned this when we were at an over-and-sacrimino yesterday with the team Alpha guys with UFC. She made a good point.

Because of the mechanism of action for photobio-modulation-alight therapy, so much of this is preventative too, you're inducing healthy cellular function, which is impossible to study in a clinical trial. You're never going to collect participants and say, well, we think 10 of these people are going to get cancer in five years. So we're just going to test to see if we can prevent that. I mean, you can't measure that.

But based on the mechanism of action at a cellular level, you're inducing healthy metabolic processes Intercellular. Well, this is why I was asking you about if you guys have hacked like the fasting with it or do we get a genetic diet or other things that could pair nicely with that. I would say one of the things that we've done I mentioned the cold baths already, but getting early morning sunlight So you get the specific wavelengths of the sun and one of my favorite things to do that my wife and I started doing in the mornings and we're trying to get her kids involved in this as well, but we live on a lake in Minneapolis and get out in the in the bare grass barefoot being grounded seeing that early morning sunrise

that has a big role in how your body produces hormones and actually can prepare your body to absorb different types of wavelengths later on the day when there is more UV. So that'd be, I think that'd be something I would highly encourage people to do. I like that. You mentioned kids, have you experimented with this, with your kids? Oh yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. You could go on our website and see photos of a couple of them Staying in front of it, but and even pets on ironically Really some dog or Old English bulldog loves to curl up in front of it as well So there's actually interestingly that there's literally studies on animal health. Oh, just can ask yeah Well, they're always curled in, dogs, I mean, all types of different things, whether it's joints or, yeah. Well, we're definitely going to test the hell out of it.

We'll be very honest, totally. Yeah. In terms of what we noticed from it, but pretty fascinating. I was, what fascinating to me was when I first heard about this, it sounded like something kind of new and, you know, and then I looked up some of the literature and I'm like, oh, shit, this goes back a long time. Like people have, we've kind of known about this for a while, and then I remembered physical therapists

have been using these for a few decades, or a couple of decades at least, so very, very cool. So you were talking about biohackers using this, they're not using it for physical performance, right? What are they using these for? Well, it really came on the same, Scott mentioned, thanks to Ben Greenfield. He had teamed up with Ollie Silviarvi from Finland, Finnish biohacker MD that had done a pretty cool paper

on different ways, that different technologies to boost test osmere production. And one of the big ones that he talked about was light therapy and then Ben kind of did a pretty cool video on that as well. So it's really started off with the testosterone production and increased blood flow. And so that's kind of I guess when one of the main interests, but as those people reach out to us, they're also asking us about other health conditions. They're like, hey, does it help with this? Does it help with this? I have my, you know, the thyroid issue. And then we send them the research on those things. And, you know, there, we have a lot of times people that buy a device for, you know,

to, because they're trying to treat one symptom or one issue that they, that's in the front of their mind. And they, you know, are pleasantly surprised that it's helped with other things that maybe they didn't really anticipate it at helping with. Yeah, and a lot of times, I mean, we've got a fair anticipate it at helping with. Yeah, and a lot of times, I mean, we've got a fair amount of information

on our site alone, but a lot of times when customers are reaching out to us, we'll send in the PubMed study itself. And this is the jewels that we're used in this study. This is the amount of, this is what it's gonna take to get that same amount of energy with our device so they can kind of make the correlation,

but it's literally, the evidence is there. And so that's what we typically try to encourage people to do is it's, you know, the science is there. No, we're, we're can they find this product? Yeah, our website is juv.com, that's j-o-o-v-v.com. And in the upper left, you've got the learn page and there's several different articles

on many of which we've mentioned today. So different health benefits, kind of compare stonas, for example, you can read through any of those and all those links to Pulpers Clinical Research. So you can see the references and what those cite to. And if you're not into digging into the science so much, if you read through our views page,

that's a great way to learn what first hand from our customers, what their experiences are as well. Yeah, and I would just encourage, there's one article in particular, it's called the definitive guide it's using the light therapy device. And so obviously we sell a product, a light therapy product,

we don't wanna be, we don't wanna look like, we're just gonna promote our product alone. But that article is a pretty non biased way for anyone that's looking into this and wants to know what things should I look for When I'm researching a light therapy device check out that article and pretty much all the information is there for You know that that will help you make an informed decision And how much can people expect to invest if they buy your product?

I know you said there were three different sizes. Yep. What are the price ranges there? So the ranges goes from $495 all the way up to $29.95. So the max device is a significant investment for virtually all of our customers. Is that what we have in here? Oh shit, we owe you one. You're going to be asking for a reach around before you die. I realize that thing was 3 grand. But honestly, that compares favorably with devices

that are 10 to 20 times as expensive. There's a LED bed made by Lightstum that's $60,000. And there's a bed that has a kind of a top and bottom that's made by Thor laser called the Novathor bed that's in the six figure range. So the other products on the market that are really in the neighborhood are way more expensive. So the other products on the market that are really in the neighborhood are way more expensive.

So, you know, the good thing is you guys have that 60-day trial because it is a large investment, but somebody could literally use it and then just return it if they didn't like it or for them. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, believe it or not, are we, considering kind of the lack of overall awareness of this therapy, you think our return percentage would actually be a lot higher than it is,

but it's very small. I mean, when most people buy this, they're... Well, it sounds like it's one of those things where it's like, you put it to the test and you're gonna know pretty quick. You know, I feel like as soon as I apply it, I'm gonna know. You know, it's gonna be one of those things where it's like, oh, I'm not sure. I feel like if we train, I'm pretty,

especially if you're somebody who knows your body pretty well, right? If you're pretty aware of your skin, you're pretty aware of your sex, throughout your libido, you're pretty, you're pretty aware of your training and your soreness. Like, I'll be able to tell right away if I should tell you today. Yeah, because I'll be just, I'll just wear clothes.

Okay. Oh, no, you're not supposed to. Yeah, that's why I heard it. This is, I'm worried. You're supposed to be naked. All right. Well, thanks for coming down. Thanks for letting us try that's right. I heard it. I'm worried. You're supposed to be naked. Well, thanks for coming down. Thanks for letting us try that.

So we'll put it to the test. We'll give our honest opinion for our audience. I think we can kind of hear what we think about it. So thanks for coming down. Yeah, man. Thanks for having us. No problem. So check this out.

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