Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 712: Dr. Shawn Baker- Carniovore Diet Advocate

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. I'm convinced I'm gonna run a little meat diet for me. I knew it. Well, with the whole test, Thostron. Oh, so here's the test. Here's the test, Thostron thing, and the psoriasis thing too. I've just, I've never thought to run that and see.

Starting point is 00:00:24 I mean, I'm, I've done vegan stuff. I've done, I've done,ist thing too. I've never thought to run that and see. I mean, I'm done vegan stuff. I tried it for two days. I didn't feel good. That's not enough time. Well, that's true, but I felt I didn't feel good at all. And I have to listen to my body. And did you, and did you,

Starting point is 00:00:35 I've always felt good. Did you just know veggies? None at all. So here's the thing. He also did a fantastic. He was, this is a very compelling episode you're about to listen to so Doctor Sean Baker. He's the carnivore diet guy. This guy only has eaten meat only no plant product at all

Starting point is 00:00:56 Sounds crazy for 14 months, but he makes a very compelling argument. He's not Not dogmatic is not dogmatic about it. You know at the end of the day the message he's saying is listening to listen to your body, which is, I love because he's a doctor. He's a surgeon, and he's saying things like, you know, blood values, there's some merit. However, what's most important is how much energy you have, your skin, do you have pain, you know, what's your digestion like? How's it translate to body's tone?

Starting point is 00:01:19 Yeah, how's your libido, how's your sleep? And it's like, man, that's what we talk about. Can we talk about how different he looks in person compared to Instagram and Oh the video is a big he's a big fucker. He's monster monster guys a big dude Not a lot of guys make me crush you a little baby like he's like he's up there with like that massive I mean he's what towers. He's lean as fuck right now at 2.45. He's like he's 50 something here's over 52 52 deadlifts like what 700 pounds. That was his most 70 all natural all natural. He's a world record holder in

Starting point is 00:01:52 Rowing right yeah, and he also was a professional rugby player too So I mean he's got he's got quite the the past as far as athletic athletics is concerned So yeah on genetic propensity like he's definitely up there, but at the same time, what are you saying was very compelling. It's a great conversation. I mean, I was throwing a few curveballs at him to see how it would respond, but he knows his shit. He's... We got in a lot of good topics too, man.

Starting point is 00:02:16 We got into the medical industry too, and the bullshit behind that. We got into blue zones. He touched that he's had some really interesting facts talking about the blue zones. The only thing I was upset is that he's holding out on his blood for Rob, our friend Rob. Yeah, so he's gonna be revealing that there. But he did tell us off air.

Starting point is 00:02:32 Maybe we should just say it here. We should. That's hijack it. No, we can't be told when we move. But compelling, compelling episode. So it's very interesting. I think it's a bit extreme. Definitely don't recommend this for most people,

Starting point is 00:02:47 but at the end of the day, the best judge, the best coach, the best, anything that you'll ever have is your body. And that's really what he says in this episode. So without any further ado, we're talking to Dr. Sean Baker. Did you say we could find Sean? I'm gonna tell him right now.

Starting point is 00:03:03 So on Instagram, it's at Sean Baker, that's S-H-A-W-N-B-A-K-E-R-1967. That's his Instagram page. His Twitter page is S-Baker-M-D. His Facebook page is World Carnivore Tribe. His websites are meetheels.com, I love that one. Or carnivoretrainingsystems.com. Also, don't forget mindpumpmedia.com.

Starting point is 00:03:30 This is where you can go to find out more about our maps, programs. These are training systems or programs designed. It's something that Sean talks about in this episode. He talks about the, we talk about how the medical system, the prescription is 30 minutes of vigorous activity every day. But they, we talk about how the medical system, the prescription is 30 minutes of vigorous activity every day. But they don't talk about resistance trend.

Starting point is 00:03:49 Right. And he agreed with us as far as the importance of that. And this, I mean, that's really our foundational program is Maps and Obolic, which I would say is the perfect program for somebody looking for overall health. Absolutely. And if you get a bundle, a bundle combines several maps programs. So you have longer than just, you know, 12 weeks, you have a longer period of time. For example, our super bundle, which is like the, that's the ultimate bundle that we offer. It's a year's worth of exercise programs. So in other words, if you enrolled in it and then started tomorrow, you would have your entire year

Starting point is 00:04:20 planned out for you every week, every couple weeks to work out changes, every few months, the whole goal changes, all the programs come with video demos, exercise blueprints, it's very thorough, it's the best programs we think you can find online and of course they're expertly programmed by ourselves, so if you want to learn more or if you just want to get started, to mind pump media.com Here we are talking to Dr. Sean Baker. I'm in the bathroom, right? I'm doing my morning morning. I'm more in D's and I walk out and Dr. Sean Baker's outside talking to Adam and Justin and you're a massive person

Starting point is 00:04:59 You're a much bigger than that. He threw us all off. Instagram is not do you justice? You're like a just a big redwood tree. Yeah A bucks bigger than that. He threw us all off. Instagram is not do you justice. You're like a, you're like a redwood tree. Yeah. Well, sorry to disappoint you guys are surprised. Yeah. So, so how, what do you, you sports? You're an athlete, right?

Starting point is 00:05:16 Yeah, I've been an athlete my whole life that a whole bunch of different sports. I'm a competitive roer. Uh, right now, right now that's what I'm done playing on that concept too. Breaking some world records on that stuff. Oh shit. No big deal. How does that work? I'm a pro-war, I believe. Right now, right now that's what I'm done playing on that concept too, break into world records on that stuff. Oh shit, no big deal.

Starting point is 00:05:26 How does that work? And no big deal. How does that work to, like you said, on a concept too. Yeah, so concept two has been maintaining world records and national records for about 35 years or so. So basically when you do a legitimate verified distance, it has a computer code that spits out and they collect that, you know,

Starting point is 00:05:44 around the world, you just see the time. I don't get surveilled. So there's usually, I mean, they just had the world into a rowing championships and usually there's about 3,000 people to go to that for the 2,000 meter distance, but there's probably several hundred thousand people every year that submit their time. Now is it an age category or is it? Yeah, there's both. There's age categories. And so I broke the world records for the 500 meter row, the one minute row and the 100 meter row for the over 50 group this year.

Starting point is 00:06:08 And then last year I broke some of the 40 plus records as a 49 year old. How fast did you pull the 500 meters? 114? Yeah, it's quick. I don't know what reference that, but that's obviously fast. If it's a world record. Yeah, that's cool.

Starting point is 00:06:21 You not only that, you also did strong man and you mentioned too,, with Matt Vincent, you did some Highland games as well, huh? Yeah, my 40s I took up the Highland games that started throwing. I was kind of funny, I was working in my clinic. And my physicians assistant comes in and I'm like, what the fuck are you doing?

Starting point is 00:06:36 And you say, you're selling us the Highland games. And I said, well, that looks kind of fun. So I went out there and just went out and did it one time. You know, it's throwing a bunch of crap. You know, you throw cabers and shot put stones and throw hammers and throw what these weights and I did it and I was pretty decent at it. And so I kind of said, this sounds fun. So I'll train for it.

Starting point is 00:06:53 So I think within two years, I ended up winning the Masters World Championships at that. And so I just went up to Denver one year. It was the Hellen Denver. And I competed about five or six years. I either won the World Championshipss or took second or third a bunch of times. But those are some big dudes, man.

Starting point is 00:07:08 Those are guys who are like, when I was, right now I'm down about 245, but back then I was about 285. And I was a little guy. You know, these guys are like six, nine, three, 40. Just beast. Just beast. And you have to be,

Starting point is 00:07:21 like when you throw in that 56 pound weight, you know, Matt will tell you, if you don't have enough strength or size of counter, that will just not care on your ass. And I mean, I've seen guys, 300 pound guys, you can see it knocked over trying to throw that thing. Oh wow. You train naturally or are you a natural athlete?

Starting point is 00:07:36 Yeah, I've never taken drugs, never taken starrows, I don't take hormones, I've done that my whole life when I compete it as a power lifter. I got up to a 350 kilo, 772 pound deadlift as a drug free athlete. Wait, oh, natural. That's insane. Yeah, I mean, that was crazy. I mean, I train hard, I know what I'm doing,

Starting point is 00:07:54 but I mean, I just got a pretty good work ethic on that stuff, and so I put that stuff together. So before we talk about the elephant in the room, which is this diet that you've been talking about on other podcasts, I heard you just and actually was the one that brought you to our attention. He's like, you gotta listen to this episode. It was the one with Joe Rogan,

Starting point is 00:08:11 where you were talking about your diet, but it was a great conversation. I wanna get into that. Before I do, you have a medical background, and I know your background is not in nutrition, but I think your background just show that you are a capable, intelligent human being. What do you do for living?

Starting point is 00:08:26 What's your training? Well, I mean, my training was an orthopedic surgeon. So, you know, at the medical school, did my, you know, I had a biology degree, I went to medical school, you know, did my surgical training, you know, went into the military, took a bunch of trauma surgery, and, but, you know, nutrition plays a role in medicine,

Starting point is 00:08:42 for sure, you know, it's not that we're nutritionists, but we certainly understand how the body works. We understand how things impact physiology pretty well, very, very, know a lot about physiology. I mean, that's part of your training. You know, that was one of my, in fact, in medical school, physiology is my favorite subject. Even I ended up being a surgeon.

Starting point is 00:08:59 But, and then through, you know, about half a decade of self-expression, I mean, I've been reading, you know, the nutritional literature for years now and I've of self-exploit, I mean, I've been reading the nutritional literature for years now and I've been self-experimenting. And again, any intelligent person, you don't have to have a particular title of degree, configure this stuff out. Just gotta have a brain and access to the material. Well, you're looking at three of them right here.

Starting point is 00:09:18 Yep. How the heck is that? There you go. There you go, guys. You figured it out, man. You make it work. You know, your hair works. Yeah, can you talk about like that process

Starting point is 00:09:26 of starting the diet. Like you went through a bunch of different diets and kind of found your way to this carnivore diet. Yeah, I mean, I've been training, like I said, I've been training my ass off, my whole life, my philosophy up until I was about my early 40s was I'll eat whatever I want as long as I train hard, you know, and then I'll be fine.

Starting point is 00:09:43 And then that works until it stops working. And then- That's the same thing here. And then that works until it stops working. And at some point, you're like, wait a minute, I'm getting fat. You know, my blood pressure's going up. I'm not sleeping well. I've got, you know, probably, I'm probably, you know, metal box syndrome. All those things started happening to me on my mid 40s

Starting point is 00:09:57 and I was like, if that, I'm not going to do that. So I started really focusing on nutrition. I went through the low fat, almost the vegetarian phase where I was eating the lean meats and just a bunch of vegetables. And that worked. I mean, I lost weight, I got leaner, but I was pretty damn miserable on that particular.

Starting point is 00:10:15 So I just was kind of grumpy all the time. I was hungry all the time. I was training three times a day. I mean, I was getting up in the morning, knocking out a couple thousand jump ropes, going to work, going to clinic, run home at lunch, train, you know, lift some weights, come back home at night, do another couple thousand jump ropes.

Starting point is 00:10:31 And I lost, I went from 285 to about 230 in about three months. I mean, I knocked it off real quick. Wow. And I mean, I was lean, you know, but I was just like, this is not sustainable for me. I mean, I couldn't live that way. And then I got into the paleo diet You know that was you know part about six years five six years ago

Starting point is 00:10:48 And so then I started well this sounds more reasonable I you know, you got to eat more animal protein and it just felt better Then as I just kind of continued reading about more ketogenic diet low carb diet to start playing with that stuff Now were you were you changing the diets? Obviously you went from the more vegan diet to the paleo one, because you just felt like shit. When you went from paleo to keto, was it?

Starting point is 00:11:10 Also because you weren't feeling good, or were you just more curious? I was more curious than anything else. I thought the science seemed to make sense to me, and I just like, I wanna put this in a context of athletic performance and health. And what I was seeing, just reading some of the stories as a surgeon,

Starting point is 00:11:24 I was seeing a lot of people getting better from a health standpoint not just weight loss because you know If people only focus on how much weight I'm gonna lose what I look like as a physician like weight them and this is can potentially helps people from you know from having chronic disease issues And so I started looking at that and I noticed for myself on a ketogenic diet. I got some things that were You know troubling me, you know joint some of that stuff, and that started to get a little better, and I started applying to patients. I started seeing pretty good progress with the patients, and then I just kind of continued to read more, and then I started seeing about these crazy people eating all meat.

Starting point is 00:11:54 And I was like, well, this sounds kind of interesting. I know there were some historical references that show that some of the earlier bodybuilders kind of gravitated toward that stuff, and then certainly, you know, you look at some of these historical populations like the Mongols and what they ate and how robust to people they were or some of the, you know what, we know we're very, they had really high work capacities. You know, that we often talk about their diet, but we also, if you look at their physical performance, planes Indians, these people were known to be just physically robust, you know, people that really did well.

Starting point is 00:12:24 And I said, well, I'll try it for a month. And I did, and I felt really good. And I get, you know, at the end of the month, I said, okay, I did it for a month, I didn't die. I didn't get scurvy, you know, nothing bad happened to me. So I said, well, that was neat. And I went back to my ketogenic diet. And I just didn't feel this good.

Starting point is 00:12:39 I mean, literally, I was just like, you know, my gastrointestinal system doesn't feel good. My energy's not as good. My joint started kind of bugging me a little bit. So I said, well, I'd rather feel good and perform good and that's what kind of drove me. So that I just continue doing it and I've been doing it for basically 14 months straight

Starting point is 00:12:56 without having a vegetable or a piece of fruit or any significant carbohydrate in 14 months. So to be clear, carnivore diet is literally no plant, anything, so like no coconut oil, no nuts, like nut, nuts, it's basically I eat a pound or two a steak in the morning, a pound or two a steak a night, typically I might have some eggs occasionally. I rarely have a little dairy.

Starting point is 00:13:19 When I started out, I had a little more variety. I would eat eggs and bacon and hamburgers and meat with cheese and steaks and a little bit of seafood. And then as I got farther into it, it's kind of weird. It seems so weird and restrictive. But as I got into it, I found that I crave steak more. I felt better when I just ate steak. And that's generally what I do. I mean, sometimes I'll have a little bit of variety if I'm cooking for somebody else. You know, somebody else wants like, you know, a lot of times a family wants some seafood.

Starting point is 00:13:49 I'll cook some shrimp up and I'll eat that with my diet. But if it's just me by myself, 99 times out of $100, go get a steak and I'll be fine. Now, being a doctor and being trained in Western, you know, basically with Western science, besides the population observations or studies that we have on people like the Inuits, the literature, or at least what's purported by the literature,

Starting point is 00:14:14 or what's, you know, pushed by the FDA, and is completely opposite, in fact, if I'm sure your peers think you're crazy, if you tell your doctor peers what you're doing, what do they say to you? Yeah, I mean the majority of them, you know, sort of, you know, with my peers because, you know, like I said, I'm a big giant crazy guy.

Starting point is 00:14:32 You should see me alone. You can do my thing by eating like, you know, whatever you want to go ahead, dude. You know, I'm just saying, no, but I mean, you know, when you look at it, you know, yeah, I mean, on the surface, it seems like, you know, we think that, you know, we still have this mindset that, you know, eating, red meat, seems like we still have this mindset that eating,

Starting point is 00:14:45 eating saturated fat is going to increase our cholesterol and cholesterol is a root of all evil. But I think as we see how this sort of science is developing, we're seeing that probably the underlying source of most diseases, underlying inflammation, possibly hyperinsulinemia. I think those things are turning to drive that. And what I'm seeing is how this diet affects those things is in a significantly positive way. And we see time and time again, people that do this,

Starting point is 00:15:14 their blood pressure normalizes, their insulin status gets better, their inflammation status gets better. All these signs of disease, they tend to get leaner. There's all there's all these things that, you know, how do I predict if I'm going to be sick or if I'm going to be healthy? Whether there's some very consistent things that are out there, if you're inflamed, there's very little research that will counter the fact that inflammation drives disease. Any study you look at for any disease underlying inflammation is always the bad guy.

Starting point is 00:15:44 The same thing with hyperlensolinemia The same thing with things like body composition So if those things are going in a good direction and then I then again, I look at this You know, you know, I know Rob Wolf talks about this as well I'm gonna be on Rob's show in a couple weeks talking about my life Good friend of ours, but but I think that you know if you look at what are the markers of disease? You know that you can measure and you care about? How do I feel? How do my joints feel? How do I perform? What's my body composition? Like what's my mood like?

Starting point is 00:16:11 What's my skin like? What's my libido like? You know, what's my digestion like? And if all of those things get better, right? Every one of those things get better in my view, you're healthier. Now, you may get a lab value, says, well, yeah, but your LDL cholesterol went up. It doesn't seem to make sense from a just a common sense stand of view that everything is better, but one lab value is an outlier. Maybe that lab value is not as valuable as we think it is. And there's pretty good evidence that shows

Starting point is 00:16:37 that those things don't match up. But many physicians are still just, they don't think about this stuff. They don't have time to think about this stuff. They're busy running patients through, like an assembly line with 10 minutes to see their patients. You know, look at their labs. Check off what drug they need to do and then do and they're typing on their electronic medical records to keep the ball rolling. I mean, it's not that anybody's given any sort of insightful thought to this stuff for most people

Starting point is 00:17:01 in practice. Certainly as a practicing orthopedic surgeon, when I was doing this, I have no incentive to talk about diet. It's all about how many patients can I push through my clinics, how many procedures can I do, how much money can I make for the hospital, and that's what you're incentivized for. And it's unfortunately, it's totally backwards. We have a huge emphasis on the back end of disease. We wait till people get sick and then we have this high tech,

Starting point is 00:17:24 oh, we have these great tools. We can replace your knee. We can give you a heart transplant. Yeah, we've got all these tools and drugs and the emphasis is in our own spot. I mean, we got to go backwards. We can't afford this. We've got this obviously, this diabetes epidemic that's already here. In 10 years from now, that's going to turn into a dementia epidemic because the underlying

Starting point is 00:17:43 disease process is the same thing. So all these overweight diabetics, we see now in their 30s and 40s, 10, 15 years from now that's going to turn into a dementia epidemic because the underlying disease process is the same thing. So all these overweight diabetics we see now in their 30s and 40s, 10, 15 years from now they're going to get early dementia. Early dementia is incredibly expensive. You know there's estimated, you know, and these are probably older dollars but it takes like something like $50,000 a year to care for somebody with dementia. It's probably more now. It's probably more now. And so can you imagine if you're a 30 year old dude and your dad who's in his mid 50s, early 60s gets to med it, what do you do? I mean, who's going to pay for that stuff? Because insurance is not going to pay for it.

Starting point is 00:18:11 So you're out $50,000 every year. You might have to quit your job. You know, I have to move in with you. You know, so this is stuff that's coming home pretty quickly. Some scientists call Alzheimer's and dementia type three diabetes, in fact. You don't sound like a Western medicine doctor. This is what I mean by that.

Starting point is 00:18:28 I don't mean that as an insult, by the way. I mean that as a positive, because you said something very interesting. I am going to get into the carnivore diet and why I think you may be actually feeling great on it and why I think it may not. It's probably not a good idea for everybody. But, you know, there's a few things you said that doctors typically don't say. You said, hey, look, if your joints feel good,

Starting point is 00:18:50 you got low inflammation, you got good energy, good skin, good digestion. And you went down a list of things that, if they feel good and they're improving, you're probably healthy. Most Western medicine doctors will look at your labs and that's all they push. They really don't ask you how you feel

Starting point is 00:19:03 and many of them don't. I don't even know if they don't care necessarily. This is not a personal personality flower, a personal flush, they don't push those things. It's all about the laughs. Well, you said earlier, they're not incentivized for that. I'm curious, can you go deeper into that? I've always wondered exactly how doctors are in incentivized

Starting point is 00:19:20 when it comes to drugs and everything like that. Yeah, I mean, it depends on especially obviously, but there are certain metrics you have to admit. If you've got a diabetic, you want to get their hemoglobin A1C under a certain level. So they look at these sort of markers for disease that aren't necessarily necessarily always represent disease. So they say like, if you have a diabetic with A1C, you might want to have to put them on this drug. So they're incentivized to use certain drugs to take care of the problem.

Starting point is 00:19:49 We know from experience that if you can get their insulin status better through diet, they're going to do a lot better off, but the easier way to do it, maybe is to put them on a drug. And so some of the incentives don't necessarily match up with, really taking care of an underlying root cause of the problem. It's more just make the symptoms go away, make the symptoms seem better, and it doesn't fix the problem. It doesn't do anything to address why these people are sick.

Starting point is 00:20:16 It's like, here's a thing. If you go to the doctor and he prescribes you in an anaphylamotoric, so you've got, I hurt my shoulder or my shoulder's hurting me. I'd do this all the time. Here's some celloprox, here's some motron. The more important question should be, well, why am I inflamed in the first place?

Starting point is 00:20:34 Not you're inflamed, here's a drug, why are you inflamed? If we thought about it, and I found this to be completely true, now that I've kind of stepped away from this stuff and looked at it from a bigger picture, diet has a huge impact on inflammation. And so a lot of these people that came out of my clinic this to be completely true now that I've kind of stepped away from this stuff and looked at it from a bigger picture. Diet has a huge impact on inflammation. And so a lot of these people that came out of my clinic with shoulder pain, knee pain, and I'm seeing this all the time now as I sort of advocate this stuff, that stuff goes away

Starting point is 00:20:54 when you fix a diet, when you remove certain irritants out of their diet. But instead the answer is, well here's a motrin. And this is the most expeditious way to take care of the patient. The patient's happy, I got a drug, I went to the doctor, I got a drug. That is their expectation. Physicians are sort of pharmaceutical facilitators. That's what we, we would larger become technicians because it's such an industry now. It's become one of the biggest industries in the country, is healthcare.

Starting point is 00:21:20 There's a lot of dollars in it. It's become a business. We don't, physicians, by a large part, want to do the right thing, they care about their patients, but the system is set up, you know, in a fashion that it doesn't really serve the patients in their best interest. How challenging that has to be to be a doctor?

Starting point is 00:21:36 Especially in orthopedic surgeon, I mean, the orthopods I've worked with, and I've trained a lot of doctors and surgeons, and you know, when you're in orthopod, you have a tool, and that tool, this pretend is a hammer. Well, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So every time somebody would go to them

Starting point is 00:21:51 and say, I have knee pain, hip pain, whatever, they'd be like, cool, let's look at it. Okay, I think I can do a surgery that'll fix this rather than correctional exercise, changing lifestyle. But I think there's another side to it too, and that's the, you know the patience, adherence to advice. And do you tell someone to take a pill

Starting point is 00:22:07 versus change your diet, which one are they more likely to do? Are you losing business because of the way you're, you know, because of your, in other words, as an orthopod, when you get someone coming to you with pain, are you telling them to go fix your diet before I come to work on you? Yeah, this is something that I started to do.

Starting point is 00:22:23 This is connection, because I'm not working at the hospital anymore because I mean the hospital got a big fight over this stuff. Oh, I'm really, let's talk about that. I started, you know, I started to, you know, start to say, hey, I want a day a week rock in his council patience on a lifestyle. And they said, no, there's no appetite for you. You're kidding me. They said, no.

Starting point is 00:22:40 Yeah, the administration said, no, we don't want to do that. So I started doing it anyway. I was just like, so I started, you know, I had all this literature. I was handing out all these videos I wanted people to watch, you know, and this is back more ketogenic stuff and I was getting good You know some good results But at the same time the hospital continued to to pressure me not to do that And then eventually they went after with some called peer review and then they started pulling records and the hospital had a long Leagle battle last about two years

Starting point is 00:23:04 I finally left the hospital. And so I'm not practicing actually right now. So I'm doing some of this other stuff. I may get back into that stuff part time, maybe in a different capacity. But I mean, there is, you know, hospitals, they run on a fairly tight margin. You know, they maybe 2-3% profit margin and they depend heavily, heavily on surgical volume for that, particularly orthopedopedic search because orthopedic search Operat I was doing you know 600 600 surgeries a year. I mean I was I was a busy busy

Starting point is 00:23:31 Surgeon because I was usually making a lot of money. Yeah, the routine surgeries show up schedule. I mean I was you know very you know good outcomes, pastes for doing well, but you know when I started to and I was ahead of the group I was ahead surgeon and you know that I was well liked and when I started to, I was ahead of the group, I was ahead surgeon, and I was well liked. And it was just something, because I didn't wanna match up with their values anymore. They used my competitors to go after me. It was just kind of a messed up deal.

Starting point is 00:23:57 There's a lot of politics, I've trained a lot of doctors. I've heard, yeah, there's politics and that stuff. I was taking, our group was taking tens of millions of dollars away from this other group. They didn't like that. Anyways, long story short, I'm not actually practicing right now, but hopefully, over the next year or so,

Starting point is 00:24:11 is this sort of alternate life is evolving for me. I'm kind of impacting, I'm literally just sitting there on Twitter and Instagram. I'm changing more lies for the better, just changing people's diet and letting them, letting them re-evaluate their health that way, then I did it's two decades operating on people, which to me is shocking that you can do it the way.

Starting point is 00:24:31 Well, so far I really like a lot of what you're saying. I really do, I like your attitude and your approach to helping people and examining potentials here, because we do know that when it comes to nutrition, there is a tremendous and massive individual variance between people. I mean, I've worked with people who succeeded and did very well with diets that looked the exact opposite of yours, but I do think there's some general truth. One of the questions I have for you is because a lot of times what we find is we've been working in fitness now for 15 to 20 years and we've interviewed some just

Starting point is 00:25:04 incredibly brilliant individuals when it comes to nutrition and Many times it's not so much what someone's eating. It's more what they're avoiding That is giving them the benefits and you're saying when you went back to keto or through in more vegetables You started having some of these negative effects. Are you familiar with the term in testinal hyperpermeability or You know leaky gut syndrome. Yeah, of course, sure. I wonder if that was one of your issues. I wonder if you developed antibodies to some of these foods that you ate a lot of and now just avoiding everything.

Starting point is 00:25:37 Do you have any other symptoms of autoimmune? No, I don't think I do. Like I said, I think that there's a transition period. Obviously, you've got a gut microbiome that reacts to what you're eating. There's a period where that flora will adapt to what you're eating. And so, I think for me and a lot of people, they find it fiber in particular can be very irritating to the intestinal mucosa. I mean, it is.

Starting point is 00:26:01 I mean, there's actually some studies that will support that. You know, our body can sort of defend against that. It build up a mucus layer to kind of protect itself and decrease the permeability there. But I think that, you know, for me, you know, what I saw was, you know, things that weren't just directly related to gastrointestinal issues, you know, I mean, I can see there are your guts inflamed and irritated by particular foods, but then when it goes beyond that and then all of a sudden you see the same things you saw six

Starting point is 00:26:31 months ago when you were doing the same diet. It's like, yeah, but my knee started hurting and that's what I used to have before when I was doing this chronically. So to me, it says that there's an adaptation period. So if you say, I'm going to go from a carnivore diet to a vegan diet, I'm going to feel crappy for a period of time. And sort of the conversation is true. If I go from a vegan diet to a carnivore diet, I'm going to feel crappy for about three

Starting point is 00:26:56 or four weeks as things sort of transition, as to gut transitions, as you know, the metabolism transition. But for me, the chronic things that I'd always had, started to show right back up, which means I was already adapted that stuff. And so when it shows up again with the same foods to me, it's not necessarily leaky gut, but it's just the same thing that's bothering me

Starting point is 00:27:15 all the time with that big sense. Well, so God, I remember who we talked to, who, oh, I think it was Chris Cresser, who was kind of an expert on that particular subject. And he talks about how the way you develop these intolerances is, you know, it's typically the foods you eat the most of. And if in the context of inflammation, which by the way, here's another one for you, because you're such an active individual, gut issues, gut intestinal hyperperpermeability or leaky

Starting point is 00:27:42 gut syndrome, very strongly correlated to people who train intensely. And because intense exercise is an inflammatory cause or it can cause lots of systemic inflammation, it kind of sets the stage for this potential problem that happened. And of course, we tend to feed ourselves right after a workout. And so we talked about how eating the same foods

Starting point is 00:28:02 over and over again, if you have any type of issues with your gut wall or cell wall, and some of those proteins get through, and your body starts to identify them as anti, you know, and starts to create antibodies, that can display itself as issues anywhere because the immune system is everywhere. So someone might get psoriasis or joint pain,

Starting point is 00:28:23 or, and we see this with people having food intolerances to things that you would consider totally benign, you know, that, you know, like I've had clients who would develop food intolerances to avocados or to, you know, beef even, you know, it's just a meat, which typically, you know, it's not a super common one. And when you look at food allergies in countries, like the highest rate of like rice allergies are in places like Japan, you know, versus other countries where they don't consume much of them. So, you know, it's just an interesting thing that's going on and considering that you exercise

Starting point is 00:28:53 so much, do you think maybe that you created this environment to where you became so intolerant to foods that have a tendency to be because, of course like gluten, process, foods, certain plants, they do contain things that are more likely to cause a potential autoimmune issue or an issue, maybe because they're defense mechanisms, right? Have you thought of that for yourself or? Well, I mean, you know, for me, you know, I don't think I had an autoimmune disorder. I mean, I just don't have any evidence that would support that. I probably had early metabolic syndrome.

Starting point is 00:29:29 That may contribute to that in some cases. What I'm seeing, again, I'm only one person. So when I look at the experience of thousands of people that I've been involved with now at this point, I'm seeing in common people getting rid of psoriasis, as eczema, you know, other autoimmune disorders, you know, Crohn's disease, all sorts of arthritis, you know, the whole gamut, you know, hypothyroidism. All those things seem to be working well,

Starting point is 00:29:57 you know, on this monodite, which is, you know, again, and for me, you know, I've had nothing but beef for 14 months for the most part. So I haven't developed any issues with that. And I still exercised just as hard as I've always had in fact, in fact, harder because my recovery is better. Yeah. Well, I think it highlights the fact that for sure, humans can do a lot for a certain period of time.

Starting point is 00:30:19 Like the average American can eat the average American diet for five years and appear to be healthy. So, I mean, besides the self-experimentation, you're doing yourself 14 months isn't technically a long period of time, but it does show that you're not doing anything toxic or creating any nutrient deficiencies, which is another good topic here. The nutrients found, and a lot of people don not realize, we talk about this on the show, yeah a lot of people don't realize this, but you're far more likely to create a nutrient deficiency eating a vegan diet, especially a natural vegan diet

Starting point is 00:30:53 when you would find if you were a hunter-gatherer, than meat, meat contains pretty much everything, except for vitamin C that tends to be a tough one, and I know Skurvy was a bit of a problem in the old world because of that. How do you feel about that? Yeah, so I mean, obviously I don't have Skurvy was a bit of a problem in the old world because of that. How do you feel about that? Yeah, so I mean, obviously I don't have Skurvy. I mean, Skurvy is a fatal disease.

Starting point is 00:31:11 I mean, it usually takes place. Some people say that the symptoms show up typically, you know, one month to about four months is typically the onset of Skurvy. It was like bruising and bleeding. Well, I mean, yes, it's a collagen production problem, but you basically, you get open sores, you bleed into your joints, you have neurological issues, your gum is bleed, your teeth fall out,

Starting point is 00:31:34 and eventually you die. It sounds bad. So obviously that hasn't happened to me, and it hasn't happened to thousands of other people who are doing this, and it's something I thought about. But when you look at the mechanism of, so there's a couple of things to go to this. So vitamin C is, what do we use vitamin C for?

Starting point is 00:31:49 One of the functions is for hydroxylating certain proteins or amino acids to develop collagen. It's also used in an antioxidant. So we know that humans can't make vitamin C. There are other animals that do make vitamin C. That's why they don't need to supplement it with that. We know that animals, when they're eating high carb diets, they make make vitamin C. That's why they don't need to supplement it with that. We know that animals when they are eating high carb diets, they make more vitamin C. Because when you have a higher carbohydrate diet, your vitamin C requirement goes up. One of the

Starting point is 00:32:13 reasons that that occurs is because we know that the glucose transporter, sorry, the transporter that brings vitamin C in through the intestinal tract and through some other cell membranes is very similar in structure to glucose. And so when glucose is competing with that, the body will preferentially use glucose and utilize vitamin C less. So again, carbohydrate diets increase that requirement for vitamin C.

Starting point is 00:32:38 We also know that one of the functions of vitamin C is an anion dioxide. When you go on a lower carb diet, you're endogenous anion dioxide, things like glutathione, things like carnison, things like superoxidant, just means you taste all go up. So you're antioxidant capacities already up. So the requirements for vitamin C actually go down on low carb ketogenics or carnivorous diets. When you look at historically, the people that got scurvy, because we know from the polar expeditions that fresh meat would cure scurvy, because we know from the polar expeditions

Starting point is 00:33:05 that fresh meat would cure scurvy, we know that's absolutely true. But the reason these sailors, these British sailors, these Lymees, you would get vitamin C deficiencies because they were eating dried meats, dried salted meats that didn't have the vitamin C content in there. And they were eating a high carb, what they call heart attack, which are like biscuits and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:33:22 They had a high carb diet. They had dried out meat that didn't have any vitamin C in it. But actually meat does have vitamin C. The USDA, and this is something that, again, an amyroll hern discovered, they never tested, they never tested meat for vitamin C. They just said, it's going to be zero. They never even bother to test it. So, so independent labs show that a pound of meat has something like 10 milligrams of vitamin C. So that's

Starting point is 00:33:46 basically enough to burn scurvy. So if you pound a beef a day, you're not going to get scurvy. And I eat, you know, me, I eat four pounds of beef a day. So I don't have scurvy. And there's another study, these guys, there's a group out of hungry called paleo metacena that they're running. They have what they call a paleolithic ketogenic diet, which is basically an all-meat diet for most people. They're using that fancy term, so they don't sound crazy like you know, you tell people all me, but you all meat diet, you sound like crazy,

Starting point is 00:34:09 but if you call it Paleolithic ketogenic, it doesn't sound crazy anymore, it's fancy, right? It's kind of sciencey. But they're, yeah, but they're, they're putting all these people in all-meat diets and they're finding that, again, that's like I'm seeing, all these diseases are going away, right? All these crazy autoimmune diseases are going away,

Starting point is 00:34:23 but the other thing they saw is that the bioavailability for vitamin C derived from animal-based products was much better than they saw from plant-based products. Like we see it with a lot of other issues. Most nutrients. Yeah, with most nutrients. They also saw that supplementation of exogenous vitamin C doesn't work very well. Same thing with antioxidants. One of the things the people from the plant-based role, like you're going to get all your

Starting point is 00:34:44 antioxidants from your berries and your superfoods, antioxidants drive exogenous, you don't work very well for humans. Most of them, they get to the gut and they're destroyed by our gastric processes. So we don't even absorb most of that stuff. So all this sort of... Brands, Chanamino acids, everyone's showing stuff. That everybody's showing, it's like it doesn't even get to the body anyway. You know, they work in a cell culture, but it doesn't actually work in humans. We have our own endogenous antioxidant system that works very well for us.

Starting point is 00:35:11 This plant derived stuff. Plant, don't make this stuff for our benefit. You know, all these plant-fighting nutrients are basically just pesticides. They're trying to keep people to stop eating them. Now we've kind of co-opted some of those and can show that they have certain functions and a medicinal purpose for some reason, sometimes that works, but they're not designed for us. You know, they're not really, we have our own systems that work better. I think when I look at plants, you and the plants that people eat nowadays, they're so

Starting point is 00:35:38 different from, I guess, natural plants, or the way that we used to eat them. Wheat, for example, looks nothing like the wheat that humans ate for thousands of years at the beginning of the agricultural revolution. And we definitely are in the middle of an autoimmune epidemic. I don't, you know, I mean, you're older than I am. I mean, how many kids do you remember when you were in school with food allergies?

Starting point is 00:36:00 You were almost none. And they're everywhere now. And I honestly don't think, don't necessarily I don't think Carnivore diets is great for everybody. That's my honest opinion, but I do think Avoiding some of the stuff for people who are in the state might be a good thing And it's obviously anecdotes quite it's quite powerful. I'm one of those individuals So I don't eat Carnivore diet. I can't I tried I tried absolute was not good for my gut. However, I do avoid most grains because when I do eat them, I do get gut issues.

Starting point is 00:36:30 That's how my issues tend to show up. But I do know people who get things like inflammation and stuff like that. Now, I want to ask you something about the vitamin C. You said it was used to make collagen from, was it with amino acids or was it like a proline and hydroxylycin hydroxy proline?

Starting point is 00:36:47 Okay. How that's made. Could the increase in vitamin C from, you know, higher carbohydrate diet be required because of the reduction in those amino acids? In other words, if I'm eating a high-car diet and I'm an animal, I'm probably not eating a lot of, you know, proling and other amino acids, I'm probably lower protein. Therefore, I may need more vitamin C to convert more collagen.

Starting point is 00:37:10 And on the flip side, as somebody eating meat, I'm going to be consuming a lot of collagen, or at least I should be, right? Yeah, I mean, if you're in steak, you know, 3% of muscle is collagen. So this is one of the things that people are always, you know, they're talking about, I gotta have my collagen to help them.

Starting point is 00:37:23 So I'm just eating a damn steak, you're getting plenty of collagen if you do that. Particularly if you eat some of the the fascial stuff that comes around and cuts a steak and that's usually tender once you cook it. So, but yeah, potentially, I don't know that we have a good study that demonstrates that for sure, but certainly if you're on a vegetarian diet,

Starting point is 00:37:39 you're not gonna get as much amino acids. We know that it's harder to obtain the amount and the correct ratios. It's just more difficult to do. I think there's a number of things. We can also look at vitamin D. We can also look at things like magnesium. All these things are commonly deficient, but those requirements, again, go up on a high carbohydrate diet.

Starting point is 00:38:01 Again, this group out of Hungary is starting to demonstrate this stuff and looking at populations. These Arctic populations eating their native diets, despite no sunlight. They live up in the polar circle. They have excellent vitamin D levels and they're eating reindeer. That's their diet. They're seeing that in the same thing with magnesium. One of the things they saw as magnesium, as glucose levels go up, magnesium levels tend to decline. We know that magnesium is a very important co-factor, again, for carbohydrate metabolism. So many people are magnesium deficient. So many people are eating these high carb diets that potentially are creating that deficiency,

Starting point is 00:38:36 it's creating, it's driving an increased requirement. And then we also know that magnesium is bound into fiber, fight tates and things like that to come in plants, block the absorption of magnesium. So you're not only creating a higher requirement, but you're also making more difficult to get. So I gotta ask, and this is, I know the audience is all thinking this.

Starting point is 00:38:57 Like what's your bowel movements like? Yeah, do you think, let's talk about that. Is it daily or is it like that? I am tempted to do that. I'm gonna get personal. I'm, I'm tempted to do it. I mean, I'm gonna get personal. I'm tempted to literally do like a live blog and be taken aback. That's right, that's all the time.

Starting point is 00:39:10 But does it happen? Yeah, no. I have a pretty much a regular bowel move every day. Now, it's not as big as it used to be because I'm not wasting as much material. You know, all that fiber, it just runs to your system. You get my bones. It's not as much bulk, but I have a regular normal bowel move

Starting point is 00:39:22 and I don't have constipation on its strain. After about a couple weeks, once you transition over, it's fine. The problem people don't understand. This is a lot of sort of propaganda out there and a lot of it's sort of vegan directed. This whole thing that meets it's in your colon and sits there. It's ridiculous. There's no evidence. You talk to any gastroenterologist, they neurologists will tell you that meat is extremely well,

Starting point is 00:39:45 we're well capable of absorbing and digesting meat. I mean, we're just made for that. That's why we have a hydrochloric acid derived system. You know, our gastropia is one five. It's among the lowest of any animal on earth. Because we digest meat, because we probably start out at scavenger animals. And every live evolutionary, I think. But, you know, there's the early asthmepaces, patients have their colon removed, and they can sit there and watch.

Starting point is 00:40:08 You feed a meat, what comes out, just a little bit of liquid. You feed them a bunch of vegetables, all that corn, and all that stuff just passes right on through. So meat is really well absorbed, so you're just not making much waste product. And so you're, you know, you're really absorbing

Starting point is 00:40:20 all that nutrition. So it's very, you know, it's this is very good quality, highly biolavailable nutrition. And that's why I think a lot of people that I've seen are feeling better. You know, they're, I think they're nourishment status, their nutrition status goes up.

Starting point is 00:40:35 And a lot of people are noticing, you know, that they're getting, you know, they're getting stronger and they're putting on muscle and that sort of stuff, which is interesting. I think that's kind of the newest, because most people that have done this, you know, out of desperation, because who's going to go on a freaking all meat diet?

Starting point is 00:40:46 You gotta be crazy, you gotta be desperate to do that. So these people that had all these health issues kind of pioneered some of this stuff at least in Western society. If you go up and talk, I'm starting to gag yes, yes, she's from Mongolia and she's like, that's no big deal. I mean, we all do that.

Starting point is 00:40:58 We eat a damn, we eat a whole sheep in a day. So for them, it's normal. But in America and Western society, it's like, well, it's crazy, you're eating meat. Meat's so bad for it, it's gonna kill you. America and Western society, it's like, well, it's crazy you're eating meat. Meat's so bad for it's gonna kill you. But these people that do that had initially done this where these desperate people in all these autoimmune diseases

Starting point is 00:41:11 and gastrointestinal issues, and they saw those issues. Now you got guys like me or athletes doing it and saying, wait a minute, my athletic performance has gotten better. I've gotten stronger. And now I can tell you, I've got guys, I've got New Zealand, New Zealand all black that's doing this I'm getting stronger I'm getting leaner I'm getting bigger it's one of the best athletes in the world MMA fighters professional

Starting point is 00:41:31 baseball players power they've got the Canadian powerlifting like 165 Canadian powerlifting Federation national record holder he's blown away his lifts you know and he's a direct free guy he says I started this for you know he pulled 165 he pulled the 630 bed left with no belt and he says a direct free guy, he says, I started this for, he pulled his 165, he pulled his 630 dead left with no belt. And he says, easy, it's easiest to ever be in my life. So there's something here, nutrition wise, now again, to your point, is it right for everybody?

Starting point is 00:41:54 I don't know, maybe not. I would say from an evolutionary status, how long have we been eating meat as humans? If you assume the human genus, I go back to homo habilis, not homo sapingssapings, but homo-habeless, homogaster, homo-receptus, all those, that's the definition of human. Now, homo-saping is one varied among humans, but humans have been eating meat

Starting point is 00:42:16 at least three million years. So it's a highly, highly evolutionary conserved property we have, and if we look at what drove our evolution, why do I have big strong powerful for its shoulders that I can throw stuff? I mean, I wasn't throwing it fruit. Because I could climb the trees before, right? That's not why we developed the capacity to throw.

Starting point is 00:42:35 You know, it's estimated that a human can throw a spear with an adult adult, which is what those spear throw is that we developed 30,000 years ago. 80 miles an hour, 100 yards, right? And that's based on a modern human. What we know about humans before pre-agriculture is they were bigger and they were stronger than we were, you know, because what happened after we adopted agriculture? Our brain shrunk by about 200 c.c.s.

Starting point is 00:42:58 Our height shrunk by about 6 inches. Our bones got smaller and our muscle attachment got smaller. So we were probably, there's a population called the Gravettians. They were these mammoth hunters. I mean, that was their specialty, the living in Central Europe. Their average height, you know,

Starting point is 00:43:14 back 30,000 years ago, something like six foot two, which is bigger than any modern human height. The biggest modern human height population right now is six foot, these are the guys from Netherlands and Central Europe, Croat and stuff like that. So these are like the biggest, strongest, baddest guys on a planet. Living 30,000 years ago, eating nothing but meat,

Starting point is 00:43:31 or mostly meat. You know, they probably, I'm not gonna say that we are always carnivorous, but I think at times when we're living in an ice age, you know, what's available to us? You know, you don't have, you don't have a whole, we eat what we could eat, right? You don't have whole foods.

Starting point is 00:43:43 And you know, this thing, this, you know, I've got this wide variety of fruits and vegetables that I can piece together, all this nutrition. That was not on the menu 30,000 years ago. There's no way it was. You know, you couldn't go to the store and buy blueberries and bananas and strawberries and kale and spiruline and all this stuff. I mean, you had what you had. And most of it in, in, in ice age times, it's going to be a big room in an animal because it's grasslands. It's not really living on ice,

Starting point is 00:44:08 we're not living on glaciers, but we're living adjacent to that stuff. And when the weather gets cold, it dries out. When it dries out, grassland develops. When grassland develops, what eats grass? He's big, roaming animals. Humans don't do very good eating grass. And so that's probably what we, you know, now eat for a lot of time. Sean, you touched on a lot of like nutrients that I think a lot of people supplement. I like to hear your opinion on just the supplement industry as a whole.

Starting point is 00:44:34 What are your thoughts on that and do you use any supplements? Well, yeah, the only thing, if you consider salt to supplement, that's the only thing I take. I don't take vitamin C. I don't, you know, again, we're talking about I don't take hormones, I don't take supplements, I don't take drugs. You know, I don't take vitamin C, I don't, you know, again, we're talking about, I don't take hormones, I don't take supplements, I don't take drugs.

Starting point is 00:44:45 You know, I don't take vitamin C, I don't take any of that stuff, you know, and it hasn't left me any worse for when I was, when I was initially, I was using a little caffeine, I don't drink coffee, but I was using caffeine as kind of a pre-worked, caffeine pill, as a pre-workup, that thing. But then I stopped doing it, because I wanted to be part of this study, I did,

Starting point is 00:45:02 I did my own study with a big group of, you know, this end equals many, we did several hundred people. So I said, because I didn't want anybody I wanted to be part of this study. I did my own study with a big group of You know this any equals many we did several hundred people So I said because I didn't want anybody doing that to confound things I stopped taking caffeine and I haven't noticed any negative effect at all whatsoever So I think you know Yes There's this sort of mindset that we have now that you got to have a supplement. You got to have a pre workout You got to do all this stuff and you know, obviously it's a big business. It's a big industry behind that stuff

Starting point is 00:45:25 And so there's a lot of people that are gonna push that but I just You know if you look at most animals in a while and I will argue that human beings are basically animals I mean we're just a damn animal. We're just a good animal that knew how to hunt stuff and we got pretty smart But you know most animals in a while are not supplementing. They know what they're supposed to eat You know the question is you know, what's the right diet for a human? That's up for debate, obviously. But I can tell you that from my experience, as I look at the human animal, we evolve because we haunted. That's what drove our evolution in a lot. That's why we're different from chimpanzees and gorillas and other primates. You look at the evolutionary adaptations that we've made. Again, the shoulder motion, the ability to throw,

Starting point is 00:46:06 the brain size, the thinking capacity, that hunting as a predator animal requires more intelligence than a prey animal. Pre-animals test the stick, his head down on the ground, eat the food and then run. The strategies required to hunt an animal is much more complicated requires better communication skills, better organization planning.

Starting point is 00:46:23 So some of that drove our brain growth. Our gut, if we look at a chimpanzee's gut, it has much, much, has much, huge, your colon that we do. Our colon has shrunk down significantly. And one of the reasons is because the chimpanzees have this huge fermentation capacity, so they can take all this, and it's even smaller than a gorilla. A gorilla's got even more fermentation capacity,

Starting point is 00:46:43 because they're high in gut fermenters, so they infirm in everything in their colon capacity because they're high in gut fermenters. So they infirm in everything in the colon and they're see-com, which humans have lost most of that capacity. And so as we see these evolutionary adaptations that occur because we obtain meat, and then the fact that you think about it,

Starting point is 00:46:59 what other animal on the planet can eat whales, can eat birds, can eat lions, can eat buffalo, can eat snails. We can eat anything. I mean, we have killed and eaten every animal on the planet. Nothing, I'm an advocate of killing all these animals, but humans have demonstrated that capacity. There is no other animal on the planet that has done that. Lions have never eaten whales. You know, there's just nothing. Sharks have never eaten, probably, they've never eaten cows, let's recall some water.

Starting point is 00:47:26 But you think about that, humans have been so adaptable, and we've got all across the planet because we were able to follow and kill and obtain nutrition from all these different animals. So we are carnivorous apex predators. My argument is that largely is our food. Now you can supplement with plant food. It's a less efficient way to get nutrition

Starting point is 00:47:46 without it out. And there's some, there's, you know, I challenge anybody to go outside and go eat all the plants that you want without going to the grocery store. And survive. You'll die. So you can't, we can't say that humans got from Africa, to Europe, to Asia, across the barring straight, to North America, to South America, and all these islands relying on plant food, because it wasn't consistent. You're not gonna find, you're not gonna find the same plant foods everywhere. So certain plants are required, which they're not,

Starting point is 00:48:17 then you would expect you'd have to find that in every geographic area that you go to. We don't need to do that, you know, because we can eat almost every animal on the planet. There's like a pufferfish, you don't want to eat. Maybe polar bear liver is a little toxic, but in general, if there's an animal, it's on the menu, we can eat it. And so that's why I think that this to me, from that standpoint, makes sense.

Starting point is 00:48:37 And then if you look at the people they're doing it, you know, you see any benefits of you rotating your meats or do you stick to basic? I don't think, you know, here's, and this is another kind of, because people say, well, you gotta eat liver, you gotta eat it. I was gonna ask about organ meats. I don't need any, I don't need any organ meats.

Starting point is 00:48:53 It's just because I don't really care for it. I mean, I'll take the back. I want to focus, not focus, I'm one of these Brazilian places in Denver. And I mean, I sat there and I just had a big feast. And one of the things I have was chicken hearts on there, so I'll have some chicken hearts. But that was the only organ meat I had all in 2017.

Starting point is 00:49:10 And I had no deficiencies, no issues whatsoever with that. When I was in Iceland a couple of weeks ago, I had some friggin' rams testicles. So I was trying all the crazy ass shit. You know, I was like sharp from in the shark and whale blubber and all this great, you know, the lamb's head, you know, he gave you this whole freaking head sitting there looking at you with the teeth and eyes. You're like, oh, okay, that's pretty cool.

Starting point is 00:49:30 So, but I mean, I try to all that stuff, but I mean, you know, here's, this is a, this is it. And I think nutrition should be simple. I think if you, if I can explain how to eat to my dog, it shouldn't take a calculator and a macronutrient thing, or a line, you say, here's your food, eat it, you'll do fun. So for me, this is what I believe,

Starting point is 00:49:51 and I think it's bearing out, if we look at what we're made out of animal tissue, you and I are, we're made out of red meat, I've cut a lot of people open, I can tell you, we're made out of red meat. An animal tissue, animal cells, what's an animal cell? You know, what's required to make that cell run? Every vitamin and nutrient that it needs, right?

Starting point is 00:50:10 So if my muscle cell requires vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin D, potassium, calcium, it's in there, right? It has to be to make it run. So if I eat that, insufficient quantity, if I eat enough animal cell tissues, I'm gonna get what I need. And that's why I don't have nutrient deficiencies That's why at 51 years of age I can dunk basketballs and break rowing world records and rip out 500 pounds on a deadlift

Starting point is 00:50:32 That's not nutrition nutritional deficiency. That's thriving in my mind and you know, so I mean that's the most you know If we if we try to simplify things, you know, just outcomes, raise, and raise your principle, the most simple thing it makes sense to me is that, you know, it's not that the, you know, it's somehow sneaking berries and somehow they're getting enough muck tuck to cover the vitamin C needs. It's that meat has what you need. And it's just that simple. And it's, it's, I won't disagree with you at all on that. I mean, for sure, if you just eat meat, you're not gonna have a nutrient deficiency,

Starting point is 00:51:06 or at least the likelihood is extremely small, compared to if you're a vegan. If you're a vegan, and we've talked about this before on the show, to be a vegan means you need to be pretty well planned. You have to plan out, you have to have a lot of variety, you have to have access to fruits and vegetables that wouldn't necessarily grow naturally near each other.

Starting point is 00:51:27 You would have terrible deficiencies. But the other side of this is that, yes, you are 100% correct. We are the most successful hunters. And that is why we throw. And that's also why we probably are so good at walking upright. We probably outtracked animals. In fact, we can outtrack almost any animal on Earth, including horses, and this is another fact. So we are exceptional hunters,

Starting point is 00:51:53 and that's probably why, or one of the reasons why we were able to succeed as well as we did. But we are also opportunistic. And if there's a plant or a berry or nut or seed, we ate it, you know, nobody turned it down because there's this side of it and that's although fruits vegetables nut seeds or plants that grow naturally are as nutrient dense or as calorie dense very few cases we find a calorie dense fruit of vegetable you might find you know coconut or something like that

Starting point is 00:52:20 but usually they're not very energy dense but you don't have to kill them and you don't have to run them down and you don't have to run them down, and you don't have to expend a lot of energy chasing them, and they probably won't kill you, except for unless you eat poison. So they do have their benefits in that case, and I know the inuits, although they do eat for the most part,

Starting point is 00:52:38 all animal product, you know, seal and seal, blubber and, you know, care about whatever, they do a couple of times a year, they do eat some plants, don't they? Yeah, I mean, you know, caribou, whatever. They do a couple of times a year, they do eat some plants don't they? Yeah, I mean, you know, it depends, it depends which population because there's inland rain, inland, inland, in what the live up with the reindeer, there's some of the coastal stuff and so they have different access to different stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:52:56 And so, yeah, certainly I agree we're opportunists. You know, we'll, you know, we'll lead a twinkie if it's in front of us. That's the thing, you know, it's like, you know, again, I'll use a comparison to a modern house cat. What is a house cat? You know, what is a cat? We consider that a carnivore, right? Cats, right now, cats eat much of grains. I mean, and they're fat and they're getting sick,

Starting point is 00:53:17 but they have that opportunity. Their opportunist, that he was put in front of them, is it ideal for them that's questionable. You know, I don't think it is. But yeah, certainly, we would have eaten anything that would have given us nutrition if we had to. If we look at some of the berries that used to grow back then, we knew they were smaller, less sugar, less energy in those things, it would require probably a fair bit of energy expenditure to gather enough berries to see how much it would take to get from a

Starting point is 00:53:45 killing a lamb, you know, because the lamb's all that fat is energy dance, obviously. True. And so, you know, I don't know. I'm, I'm, I wouldn't, you know, again, the evolutionary arguments are always neat to talk about, but until somebody invents a time machine. We don't know.

Starting point is 00:53:59 We don't know. It's all speculation. So what I like to do is say, let's, let's, let's look at the do's doing it in 2018 and what are they doing? Like me, I mean, just stake. I'm doing fine. And so to me, that's more informative to talk about physiology and what really happens. It's a proofs in the pudding.

Starting point is 00:54:16 You can speculate about the anatomy, the biochemistry, and history and evolution. But you're never going to know that stuff for sure. Even all the biochemistry is constantly evolving. You know, all this stuff we think we know, we have all these people tell us, this is the latest study on, you know, limobines or coffee or whatever, whatever, whatever nutrient, that stuff changes every couple of years.

Starting point is 00:54:35 And all of a sudden you got these people, you know, it generates a lot of supplements. Oh yeah, we got all take this, and somebody's gonna sell much supplements. So we spend two or three years taking co-ins, I'm Q, or Chromium pecanolane, all this crap that you know I don't know if you guys remember that. I do. Yeah. I was like, yeah, I gotta take that stuff and then it's like, well, it didn't

Starting point is 00:54:51 even work. You know, honestly, what I tell people is, you know, if you're gonna take a supplement, you know, it better have a friggin powerful effect or it's just a waste of time. It's expensive you're what I'm seeing with these big huge and again, a lot of people talk about moderation and balance, you don't really notice anything. And maybe it's a little bit of placebo. You're like, ah, maybe I felt a little better. This stuff, what I'm seeing is like punch yourself, punch yourself in the face, knock yourself on the ass.

Starting point is 00:55:17 Wow, that's a huge difference for a lot of these people. Like, my chronic back pain, not me, but people will say that it's been bothering me for 15 years, went away completely in two weeks. That to me is powerful. You don't get that from taking some BS supplement a lot of time, just like, yeah, maybe Dave Asprey told me it was gonna help me and, you know, he's gonna live to be 180

Starting point is 00:55:37 because he takes 150 pills a day. That is ridiculous. I doubt it. Well, I can sit here and say, I'm gonna live to be 180 here by my crap. But it's just to me, it's misleading and people that fall for that. It's the same thing like with this, well, I won't go on a vegan rant right now. No, I've been trying to get you to get on a rant because I think of me. You're so calm,

Starting point is 00:55:57 but I would think that a lot of this stuff... Sure you're getting attacked left and right, but... You know, here's a problem. And I don't care what you eat. You eat whatever you want to eat. Do whatever makes you healthy. I think that's, but objectively assess if you're actually healthy or not. Don't just do it because you think you're healthy.

Starting point is 00:56:14 You think it's the right thing to do. If you're not flat out getting healthier and you should be able to tell that, you should be able to feel this stuff. It should be obvious to you. Then that's not the right thing for you, but do what makes you be healthy, but this is a problem,

Starting point is 00:56:28 there's a big propaganda here, arm on this vegan stuff, and many of our great people nice about it. I know a lot of them are good, but there are just some that are just so politicized and almost kind of a religious, and that's like me, I say eat all meat, it's fine if you wanna do it, but I don't care what you eat.

Starting point is 00:56:43 You don't have to do that, you're not gonna save the planet by eating meat. It's not my concern. My concern is what do whatever makes you feel better from a health shampoo. But these people are like, if you don't eat it, you're a murderer. I mean, I had a lady who literally said,

Starting point is 00:56:56 if my kids ate animal products, I would kill my children. Wow. That's insanity. That's crazy. There's another guy that slid his own throat, the scar is throat, to honor the animals that were sacrificed. I'm like, you guys are nutty. You know what, that's a misplaced,

Starting point is 00:57:11 and I'm not gonna piss people off, but it's misplaced empathy. I mean, humans, you evolve empathy to be empathetic towards each other, and then we extended it towards animals that benefited us, like horses and dogs, and then they just, you know, in modern societies, I think people maybe they feel they need to,

Starting point is 00:57:30 you know, they don't have empathy towards you. We have that fucking luxury. We didn't have that luxury, you know, say we wouldn't be that empathetic if it was how you had to survive, right? So they put it towards all animals and it became a thing. But you're not, you're not not eating vegetables because you feel bad for the vegetables.

Starting point is 00:57:44 You know what I'm saying? It's not like you're trying to save plants. you feel bad for the vegetables. You know, I'm saying it's not like you trying to save, right? Trying to save plants. I'm not trying to save tomatoes. Right, right. I'm not my goal here. I mean, I'm just doing what works for me well. I, you know, call me greedy, call me selfish, but I want to be healthy and perform as good

Starting point is 00:57:56 as I can. You know, I've been criticized, you know, because they're saying, oh, you're only eating that way because you want to have muscles. I'm like, yeah, I do want to have muscles. Muscles are important for your health. And this is people that don't understand that. Especially as you age. Yeah, it's a big one.

Starting point is 00:58:08 It's a huge one. It's important to maintain your strength. We know a lot of quality of life and longevity are tied into muscle mass, right? What's the saying in medicine like break your hip and then dive pneumonia? Or something like that? The mortality rate after a broken hip,

Starting point is 00:58:20 you know, you break your hip within one year, 40% of people are gonna be dead. Why do they break their hip? It's because they're weak, they're weak, they're frail. And we have, we have obviously an obesity epidemic, but we have a frailty epidemic. We have an issue with people that, you know, they're, they're literally, they're very structure is, is tenuous. I mean, their bones are weak, their muscles and their sarcopene, their bulsum, their muscles are weak, their kidney size is small, their, their hearts are small, their brains are shrinking.

Starting point is 00:58:46 All of that is due to poor nutrition. Even if you're obese, you're malnourished in most cases, and you're probably malnourished because you're not getting enough animal product. And you're probably not getting enough protein. I know there's a big push that protein is better, there's a whole camp on this mTOR camp about if you stimulate mTOR, you're gonna die,

Starting point is 00:59:03 and you're gonna get cancer. Well, I don't think you can extrapolate that evidence into the human beings yet. I mean, that's, that's, that's, no, it depends on context. In fact, we have a good friend that talks about this all of time. And amtore is also what stimulates muscle growth and recovery. But in the context of inflammation, in the context of cancer,

Starting point is 00:59:24 amtore will drive cancer to become more malignant and grow and spread. Same thing with insulin-like growth factor. But in a context of low inflammation, probably it's not a problem. At least we haven't seen it to be a problem. Yeah, that's a problem. A lot of these labs, people get a lab

Starting point is 00:59:39 and then what's your whatever value? It has its context dependent. What is the context in the setting of inflammation or hyper-insulema or these other things? And so, yeah, to extrapolate that from a nematode or a mild study or a cell culture study, to me is dangerous. We know what happens to people when they restrict

Starting point is 00:59:58 their protein, particularly as they age. They end up frail, they break their hip, look at a nursing home, look at these people, look at their diet, look what they're eating, and look at their health, their dis frailers can be. But back to the vegan stuff, here's the thing, they're taking, they're going after these kids now in grade school.

Starting point is 01:00:14 My kids, my kids are getting this message in there, they're 10 years old, eating animals to bat. I got a counter-counter that all the time, I give my daughter a piece of ribeye, and she's okay, it's better now, but it's know, it's just because it's almost like the smoking is in their praying on the youth, they're driving towards this stuff, they're trying to disney a fire nature, you know, it's not Zootopia, you know, it's not where we have the Fox and the rabbit are hanging out and best friends, no, they eat each other in a while.

Starting point is 01:00:44 That's what really happens. But we have these kids, and most of these vegans are 18, 19, 20, 25 year old guys are just kids. In my view, and they're very, you know, super, super excited. They're very, you know, they're very, they're really hyped up to do this stuff. And, you know, what happens is because at that age,

Starting point is 01:01:04 they still have a lot of physiologic reserve. I mean, they're still young, their systems are working. They're getting hyped up to do this stuff. And what happens is because at that age, they still have a lot of physiologic reserve. I mean, they're still young, their systems are working. They're getting away with shit. Yeah, they can get, you know, we could all get away with that. Right, they can live on the Twinkie diet and be all right, probably. So they're seeing this stuff and they're thinking,

Starting point is 01:01:15 well, I feel good. And you know, if they go on a vegan diet and they drop all this process and they drop the Twinkies out and they feel better for the first few months, like, oh, it's a great thing in the world. But what they don't see is, you know, three months, you know, six months down the road, five years down the road, all these people are dropping out, they're having a hard time. And I see all these people that come from veganism and they're like, you know, I got depressed,

Starting point is 01:01:35 I just depleted, you know, my teeth got bad, you know, all these autoimmune issues. And you know, that's what they're not seeing. They're not publicizing this stuff. And, you know, if you look at some of the biggest proponents of this stuff, they don't look particularly healthy to me, at least the older ones. Like I said, I like to put out, I'm a guy in my 50s.

Starting point is 01:01:53 I don't see a lot of vegans doing what I do in my 50s. Just to put that contrast out there from an overall health standpoint. But it's something that there has to be a counter message. And even if I have to do the entertainment stuff, do the stuff that's kind of a little outrageous, just to say, look, we're going in a direction. Man went plant-based 10,000 years ago. We adopted agriculture. That's when we did this big push. And right now our diet, the US diet

Starting point is 01:02:25 is about 75% to 80% plant-based is, is now most of that stuff is wheat, soy, corn, and sugar. I mean, that's still plant-based stuff. And so I don't know that saying, you gotta eat more brussels sprouts is necessary to the right order. I think we need to get back to what we might have been eating 20,000 years ago.

Starting point is 01:02:41 And that would undoubtedly include more animal products. Yeah, I agree. For the most part, what you're saying in terms of, you know, I do think people do need to eat more animal stuff, and I don't think all plants are created equal. So we, you know, the reason why we eat so much wheat, soy, and corn is because we figured out how to grow them. We, of course, were able to modify a couple of them so we could spray the hell out of them and it makes it easier to harvest them or whatnot.

Starting point is 01:03:08 But even if we go back thousands of years when humans did eat some plants and stuff, it wasn't two crops. It was whatever was around. It was very, very different. Now, let's talk about, you mentioned depression in people who eat mostly a vegetarian diet. And actually, this is a real statistic, by the way.

Starting point is 01:03:26 So, you know, you're not making this up. I've seen this, I've read this, you can look this up. There is a strong correlation to not eating or at least having low amounts of natural creatinine in your diet and having low amount and having low cholesterol. So cholesterol is a big one because we were taught as kids that cholesterol had to be low, the lower the better. But when you look at the literature,

Starting point is 01:03:53 low cholesterol is very strongly correlated with all cause mortality and depression and cancer. Like if your cholesterol is really low and you have cancer, the odds that you're not gonna survive it are much higher. So my question for you is, twofold, let's talk about cholesterol for a second and have you had your blood test done

Starting point is 01:04:14 and what do your numbers look like? Let's stick into that. All right, so let me just answer the second question first. Yes, I've had my numbers done. I know what they look like, but I'm gonna share them on Rob Will's spot. Did you promise them you can't? I promise it, yeah. So, but I will tell you and Rob. Rob Will's spot. Did you promise him you can? I promise it. I will tell you Rob.

Starting point is 01:04:25 He's our friend. He said it's cool. No, I ain't. And actually Rob has got a bunch of crazy new tests he wants me to take to that are probably more advanced indicators and some of that stuff. But I will tell you, I'm happy with my labs in general. And I'll share about those things in a couple of weeks on Rob's show. But yeah, you're right. If you look at the cholesterol associational studies, and again, associational studies, you have to take them with a grain of salt because they're only associational studies.

Starting point is 01:04:50 But there is a pretty consistent dichotomy on these studies with cholesterol. You know, certainly, there was a study on males. You know, males that had low cholesterol were seven times as likely to commit suicide. And so there probably is something there. And I think your brain has made out a lot of cholesterol, right? And so we're made out of it.

Starting point is 01:05:13 You need it. It's part of our body. So this is this mad attempt to suppress it and get rid of it and drive it down as low as possible is to my, in my view, just insanity and it's causing a lot of problems. Do you think it's the pharmaceutical industry? If they discovered a way to lower it with a drug? Right, I mean, it'd be funny if they said,

Starting point is 01:05:29 well, we gotta, I just sit there and in my mind, think of this pharmaceutical meeting and they said, hey guys, we got a drug that lowers, we got, here's cholesterol, we got drugs, we don't have drugs that can raise it, but we got drugs that can lower it. Well, then we gotta make low to make low cholesterol the good thing. You know, and so, but yeah, you know, it's a multi-billion dollar industry.

Starting point is 01:05:48 Obviously, and I think that's falling apart just people starting to question that in a lot of different levels. Some people are saying it maybe the effects are not even related to cholesterol. Maybe there's an inflammatory infection in some of these drugs. And so, maybe we should just focus on getting rid of the inflammation instead. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, there's some people that speculate, like, if you look at people that go to the hospital for a heart attack, their cholesterol will drop after they've had the heart attack.

Starting point is 01:06:13 So we think that cholesterol is actually being used to prepare things. So we're using up all that cholesterol to take care of the damage. That's one of the thoughts on the propagation of atherosclerosis. It's not that there's cholesterol in the vessel. The reason that it got there is just trying to do it still to repair stuff. After you work out too, after you lift weights really heavy your cholesterol actually dropped.

Starting point is 01:06:32 So it's a repair mechanism for my body. Same thing like I said, when you work out, I will tell you that, you know, because I did these labs, I kind of repeated some of that. I noticed things like my C-reactive protein, my liver function test, some of the other things, change in response to exercise. And we know that.

Starting point is 01:06:45 That's why when I tell people, you go get your cholesterol tested once or twice a year, you look at one number and I'm like, man, that stuff could have changed significantly based on what you did in the last few days. And so people get so hung up on that. And it's like, they put in vest so much energy and anxiety into this one little number.

Starting point is 01:07:04 And I'm like, man, that stuff is so changeable day today You know, there's a guy named Dave Feldman who's been doing this. I don't know if you know about this guy But interesting guy he went on a ketogenic diet Again, he felt the same thing. He felt great, right? Everything's I'm leaner. I'm stronger my libido is better Everything about me feels better. I went to the doctor, my total cholesterol was 400, right? The doctor's like, oh my God, you're gonna die, right? So he said, this doesn't make sense to me.

Starting point is 01:07:29 So he started just checking his own cholesterol. He got labs, he said, Oh, I did read about this guy. Right, so he found out that his cholesterol, he can change his cholesterol 100 points, which is a shit ton, in a week. And so if your cholesterol can change 100 points in a week, how good is it to just

Starting point is 01:07:45 to measure it once a year? And based all your health care on that and going on these drugs that you may or may not mean, it's like, you know, it's like taking the the temperature on January 1st and saying, ah, that's the temperature for the year. Yeah. It's madness in my view, but I mean, it's, you know, so I think we have to come away from that. Did you, did you have a pivotal moment in your career where this stuff started to kind of add up or you're like, I'm so over excited. Imagine when you first come out of school and you're probably ambitious and excited

Starting point is 01:08:12 to start your career and you're about helping people. And then was there a moment where you started realized, like, fuck, is this really about the people or is this more about money? Yeah, I mean, when you first come out, it takes a long time. It takes, you know, five, 10 years to really learn your craft, you know, you, you know, because you're just learning, you're trying to learn as good as you can, you know, learn how to operate, learn

Starting point is 01:08:30 how to take care of patients, do the best you can. And then after a while, you know, because when I, when I went in to orthopedics, one of the reasons I liked orthopedics, you know, because I had a sports background, there's a lot of muskah skills stuff in there. But, you know, it's one of those fields where you can make an immediate impact. Somebody comes in there and breaks their femur, you know, they had one of those fields where you can make an immediate impact. Somebody comes in there and breaks their femur. You know, they had bones sticking out. You can take them to the operating room, put a big metal rod down there, and they can be walking the next day.

Starting point is 01:08:52 Right? That's cool stuff. Right? That's one of the nice things about orthopedics. But what you come to find out is, most of what you see, that's kind of the rare stuff, you know, for the average guy. Most of what you're seeing is, you're seeing chronic disease. I mean, all you're seeing is the orthopedic manifestations

Starting point is 01:09:07 of chronic disease, and it's probably... Ooh, let's back up for a second. You just said something incredible. Orthopedic manifestations of chronic disease. What do you mean by that? Well, I think a lot of the tendonopathy, we see the tendonitis, the tendonosis, the arthritis, is probably just, you know,

Starting point is 01:09:23 how our musculoskeletill system displays underlying systemic inflammation. That's a big one. And I think that's what we're seeing. That's why so many people, well, that's why when I was seeing people fixing their diets, even though they had a horrible looking X-ray, their need would stop hurting. And we would like, well, you don't need surgery, then. When did you start putting that together? Was it like a single piece?

Starting point is 01:09:44 That must have blown your mind, bro. Well, I did, it did. And then I kind of started thinking that all these surgeries I've done, I mean, you know, probably 50% of the surgeries I've done in my life probably could have been avoided. Wow. It's not a subject you think. Sean, I've gotten an argument, because I trained, I had a wellness personal training facility next to a major hospital. And I've gotten an art, and I had a lot of clients that were surgeons and doctors.

Starting point is 01:10:06 I would train them. And then I actually would get an arguments with other doctors sometimes, not because I thought I knew better, but because I'd have a client that would come in and say, oh, I have some knee pain. Doctors says I need, you know, whatever surgery. And we would start doing correctional exercise. We start fixing their diet. No more pain. Yet their doctor would still argue that they would need a surgery. Now, I would get these arguments

Starting point is 01:10:29 with them and it was like, but they don't hurt anymore, the move and find. X-ray doesn't mean shit if they're okay. That's crazy. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of these studies are coming out and out showing things like all these minisectamines. Some of them come to the torn meniscus and degenerative meniscus in particular, we go in there and trim it up and say, you're gonna feel better. The data doesn't support that anymore. I mean, I've done, I did thousands of those procedures.

Starting point is 01:10:52 I mean, it's just like, oh my God, you feel bad about that stuff. But, you do what you know at the time, you're seeing all these, you know, like some of the rotators of surgeries are showing they don't make much difference. And some of the, you know, obviously the spine surgeries don't make much difference. We do this stuff, obviously the spine surgeries don't make much difference.

Starting point is 01:11:05 We do this stuff all the time continuously, just because that's what we know, it's, again, that's our hammer, and that's what we know how to hit things with. And so, and some people, you know, you'll get a few people in the response, you know, maybe 20% of the people, like, yeah, I feel better, that's enough.

Starting point is 01:11:17 Okay, good. And then, you know, you can extrapolate this to the rest of the population. But, you know, I found that, you know, as I just kind of read some of the literature outside of my narrow field, because orthopedics, I'm reviewing some of this stuff and I look back and they never even mentioned nutrition at all. It's like not even, if you come in with a sore knee, it's going to be physical therapy

Starting point is 01:11:37 lose weight, take some anti-inflammatories, maybe we'll inject your knee with a steroid. If that doesn't work, we might scope your knee, and then finally, if none of that stuff works, maybe we'll inject your knee with a steroid. If that doesn't work, we might scope your knee. And then finally, if none of that stuff works, maybe we'll replace your knee. Now that's sort of the paradigm. At no point, do we say, well, let's play with your diet, let's play with some of these other lifestyle factors, let's get your recovery better, let's get you sleeping better.

Starting point is 01:11:57 That never comes to the equation. And to me, that's a huge part of that. It's like I said, I've seen it so many times now. You know, just listening to people sending me their stories. You know, I've got this website, meetheels.com, which I encourage people to look at. What a great band. And we've got all these people with these

Starting point is 01:12:14 just tremendous life-changing stories that I could never see by operating on somebody. I just would never see that because every aspect of their health, and I think many of these diseases, whether it's diabetes, hypertension, cardiovascular disease, arthritis, autoimmune disease, probably all share a common cause in many cases.

Starting point is 01:12:33 And so if you don't get to that, what's causing that? You know, this is what I used to, this is used to reward, this is how I used to think in the past, I'd get somebody that come in and they have a bad arthritic knee, I'd replace their knee, they would feel better. You know, it would definitely make them feel better. Maybe not 100% but a lot better, generally.

Starting point is 01:12:50 If you look at the data on knee replacements, you know, not the orthopedic day, but if you look at the pain literature data, about 53% of the people that have knee replacement, three years out will still have pain. You know, it's because you didn't fix the underlying metabolic issues. But I would see somebody who come in there, I replace their knee, they get a good result, they'd be happy with me, they come back next year for their other knee. And I'm like, yeah, they like me, yeah, they like me, they don't want me to fix their other knee. What I should have been doing is like, why do,

Starting point is 01:13:16 why do we prevent you from needing a knee replacement? But that's so that's a change in mentality, particularly for a surgeon. It's just like, I can get somebody better with a surgeon, I'll operate on them, I'll operate them 10 times if they want, because I can fix them, but you're not fixing them. You're just putting a really expensive band-aid on a process, and that's what drives our healthcare industry, that's what drives our dollars.

Starting point is 01:13:38 That's how I was incentivized. The more surgery I did, the better I got paid. Was it ultimately making patients better? Maybe there's helping their symptoms a little bit. So it sounds like those wellness, hippie wellness experts of 10 years ago who were saying that. Now being somebody who's coming from medicine, an actual doctor talking like that,

Starting point is 01:13:59 is extremely powerful. Set aside the carnivore diet, set aside that for a second. What you're saying right now is So powerful because of your background because you have the training and because you worked in that field and I can only and I can only am and it because you're so powerful That is extremely threatening to The establishment if you I hate using that works. It sounds like this illuminati thing But I'm talking about the medical establishment the backlash must be crazy Yeah, I mean it's it's not a message that that

Starting point is 01:14:29 People want to hear that that depend on their living doing this stuff because then we do and I mean this this is healthcare Unfortunately has set itself up where if you do not have sick people The healthcare companies fail you have to have sick people to make this work. You can't make a profit or keep the lights on. You can't afford to pay your employees unless you have a steady stream of sick people. There's no incentive to stop that from going on from that end. So I know Chris Kresser talks about this too. Is it how we can change medicine. We have, we train armies of paramedical people, the radiology texts, or lab texts, or CNA nursing assistants, all these people were training to take care of sick people when we should be training an army of prevention specialists.

Starting point is 01:15:19 I mean, that's what I think should happen. Some of the folks in the fitness industry, they get that, and the social media stuff, I talked to Mark Poon on his Mark Pell's podcast, I said, look, Mark, you got a big loudspeaker. You can use this to do good, besides selling slingshots and all this. We're just fucking guilty on our side though. Well, but that's the thing,

Starting point is 01:15:40 once you guys have a big audience, you can say, look, we can make people healthier. It's not gonna come from the government. There's too many conflicts of interest. There's always business inference that it's gonna take forever for that stuff to cycle through. So if you've got loved ones, people you care about in your life,

Starting point is 01:15:57 you just don't have time to wait for this stuff. And so I think you have to use stuff like I'm doing on social media like what you guys are doing, what some of these other people are doing. And it's kind of funny because three years ago, I thought social media was stupid. I mean, I was like, I was like, I was fucking Facebook.

Starting point is 01:16:14 People whining and bitching, complaining and trolling. I don't want to be part of that stuff. And there's still that stuff is still there, obviously. You know, you get these idiots on there. It's just doing stuff. Yeah, I don't know what, get a job or something. Be productive, but I mean, at the same time, this is where people are listening.

Starting point is 01:16:30 They're listening to podcasts, they're checking out Instagram, they're checking out Snapchat or whatever, I'm learning about that stuff now. But I mean, this is where people are getting their information from, and so the people that are going sort of outside the main channels are gonna have a bigger impact, you know, it's not, people aren't waiting for a Harvard study main channels are going to have a bigger impact.

Starting point is 01:16:45 You know, it's not, people aren't waiting for a Harvard study to tell them what to eat or how to live their life. And half the time it's not going to get red. You know, no one knows how to read those studies. You know, it's like I just boring, you know. And so. And it takes a long time, like it takes a long time for them to come out and be like, oh, it looks like saturated fat may not be you know after decades of

Starting point is 01:17:05 30 years. Yeah, damage of oxygen magazine has your impact on a lot of people. It's just I mean incredible amounts of damage that we've caused because of government, you know centralized You know, not just power, but You know when they put out a plan like okay, this is what everybody needs to do This is what we think was it Dr. Ansel's keys that came out with that hypothesis, which is completely fault flawed and bullshit was obviously used politically. And we have terrible, terrible health.

Starting point is 01:17:34 And so people just don't trust that stuff anymore. Well, I mean, and I think Joe Rogan talked about this in the show, the sugar industry, paying to suppress data and corrupting and trying to point the sugar at saturated fat in the vegan doctors are still running that same propaganda. Veganism, in my view, is just a sort of a, the underlings for the process, food industry, in a lot of cases because most of the vegans are eating all this process because they have to, because they can't stand.

Starting point is 01:18:02 Who wants to sit there and eat kale and carrots all day long? You know, I mean, and a few beans. I mean, they end up gravitating towards this, the fake desserts and the fake meats and stuff like that. Some of the most processed food is vegan. You go to the store and you look at the, in this section with the fake bacon and burger and look at the ingredients on those things.

Starting point is 01:18:20 It's like a hundred ingredients to make that thing taste like. And the reason they're in the store is because people are eating them You know, it's like the old figures saying why never eat that stuff. Well, who's eating them? Right in the store so easy why why do we have 25 miles of garbage? You know in the grocery stores because people eat that crap That's why it's there is not because it's sitting there, you know no one's eating it so the reasons there is People are eating that and the process food industry knows that so they're like yeah, yeah go ahead Eat your vegan process food. We're gonna make it cheap and we're gonna make a good profit eating that and the processed food industry knows that. So they're like, yeah, yeah, go ahead, eat your vegan processed food.

Starting point is 01:18:45 We're gonna make it cheap and we're gonna make a good profit over that. So again, this is, you know, again, I don't, I don't think it's a conspiracy theory. I think it's just business. Yeah. I mean, well, that's the consumers wanting it. Right. We're paying for it. We keep asking, that's the question is, would anyone do otherwise?

Starting point is 01:19:00 I would be curious if, if the people that came in for surgery, how many people would opt out of it if they knew that they had to go change their diet and do a bunch of things to- Some people would just want the surgery. Right, yeah, absolutely. There are some people this want the easy road. I mean, there's no doubt about that.

Starting point is 01:19:13 There's people, I mean, I used to have, I would have women in my office crying because I wouldn't give them an injection because I said we need a fixed diet. I mean, they would do it so mad. These are the few times I ever got like a negative complaint, basically, he's like, Dr. Baker, so mean he wants me to lose weight.

Starting point is 01:19:27 He wants me to go on a diet, and he won't give me a quarter zone injection, would by the way probably it doesn't help very much in a long way anyway. Deterian, so I would have these people that would just, they would, they would literally, they're like, you know, I want to see another provider because they'll give me one, they'll give me one.

Starting point is 01:19:41 I want to touch on that a little bit, once you know, because I've had a lot of clients that would rather do that than put in the work. And I got to constantly tell them, like, we got to fix the root cause. You keep getting, they just band any. So talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, like I said, again, it's a band-aid,

Starting point is 01:19:55 you know, like particularly cortisone injection. I would, personally, I would almost never want to do that unless it was a desperate situation for me. And I've given thousands of cort of cortisol injections over the years. At this point, even the orthopedic literature now doesn't really support it. It's very, very efficacious long-term. You might tamp down inflammation for a couple of weeks, a few months at best, but the long-term results of that tend to make the outcome worse.

Starting point is 01:20:23 If you want to look at the best interest in somebody, don't do that. You know, fix, again, fix the root cause. Again, modify the light stacks, there's a diet, the exercise is sleep, the recovery, the stress, all those things are going to have a far greater impact on their overall health and the health of that particular joint. You know, you know, strengthen the joint. You know, that's the thing. You know, a weak joint is never a healthy joint. You know, it's like no one ever got better by getting weaker. You know, that's why, you know, strengthen the joint. You know, that's the thing. A weak joint is never a healthy joint. You know, it's like no one ever got better by getting weaker. You know, that's why people like,

Starting point is 01:20:48 people like, well, I can't deadlift because I have back pain. I'm like, you know, you can learn how to do that and do some heavy kettlebell swings or something. You can strengthen your back and you're gonna make it better regardless of what situation you're in. Oh, we think for sure, like up until recently,

Starting point is 01:21:03 or now, the recommendation for sure like up until recently or more or now The recommendation for exercise was you know 30 minutes of vigorous cardiovascular activity which is Horrible horrible advice not that 30 minutes of vigorous cardiovascular activity is not good for you But that's the wrong activity. We should we're promoting what we should be telling people especially the aging population is Strength training because that the only form of exercise that directly combats all of the things that happen with a what we should be telling people, especially the aging population, is strength training. Because the only form of exercise that directly combats all of the things that happen with age from loss of mobility, loss of strength, hormone changes in declines, metabolic disease

Starting point is 01:21:37 where the metabolism slows down. Osteoporosis. I mean, osteophenia osteoporosis all are directly combated from resistance training and no other form of exercise does that But no doctors recommend you resistance training. It's all vigorous cardiovascular activity in fact are telling people to not lift weights Yeah, I mean, that's I mean that again, and this is some of this CYA

Starting point is 01:22:00 Anti-law suit stuff because if you tell somebody go go deadlift and they hurt their back You know, because you you're a lot with it. So a lot of the advice, again, don't go to your doctor for nutrition and health advice. You're not gonna get any, you're gonna get shitty advice. Coming from a doctor, right? They don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Doctors, they don't know anything more than your plumber.

Starting point is 01:22:19 For weightlifting, you know, I mean, you know, in general, I know I trained them. They didn't know anything about, I had to train them. Like I said, it's, you know, I mean, you know, in general. I know I trained them, they didn't know anything about that. I had to train them. Yeah, like I said, it's, you know, it's, yeah, the strength training is important. We're starting to see, you know, the advice mostly is go walk. How'd this go?

Starting point is 01:22:35 Just go, you know, add a few more, do your 10,000 steps, you get your fit bit on and do your 10,000, that's bullshit advice. I mean, that, you know, it's gonna help, you know, it'll help more than nothing. It'll help more than nothing, you know, but it's not gonna do much, you know, you,. I mean, it's got to help more than nothing. It'll help more than nothing, but it's not going to do much. Like I said, I believe in balance and moderation is basically a fairy tale. I just think you've got to do a meaningful impact to make an impact.

Starting point is 01:22:58 So this stuff, don't do anything much, just moderate everything. It doesn't help very much. You've got to really make an effort, and you have to, I mean, it doesn't mean you have to progress. I mean, you don't have to start, you know. You have to be appropriate. You don't have to start doing snatches and box jumps and run in sprints, and the crazy stuff I'm doing,

Starting point is 01:23:19 you know, I'm doing stuff because I'm doing this for 40 years, but I mean, you've got to, you know, set down the gauntlet and say, you got to progress. I mean, you can't be weak and expect age appropriately. You're gonna be, you know, you're gonna be the lady in the grocery cart in the scooter.

Starting point is 01:23:35 I mean, that's what's gonna happen. And you're gonna need somebody to carry your grocery bags out to the store, you know, out to the car, which is, you know, not where you need to be. Does your family eat like you then? Or are you the only one that's pure meat? I'm the only one that's pure meat. They all love meat, though.

Starting point is 01:23:48 I mean, so my girlfriend, she's kind of funny. My girlfriend five years ago, and she's from France when I started dating her. She said she was a vegetarian. Like, how the fuck can you be a vegetarian? I'd be from France. This makes no sense. But she and she was having this awful GI.

Starting point is 01:24:02 She's and couldn't figure out what to eat. Been to all these, you know, natural pathic doctors and her telling and they're telling all this stuff and you know as I kind of came through I said look just starting eating a little more meat You know, and so she's she's doing this now now she eats probably You know 80% of her diet is meat and that she includes some fruits and vegetables that she likes them and and is doing pretty well with that And she's much happier and probably your health is the best it's been ever in my kids. I'm divorced so my kids have time so I don't get to, I can't dictate their whole diet.

Starting point is 01:24:29 But what I do is I make a bunch of meat and my kids love it and they wanna eat it and this is a sad thing is because I make a nice steak and my daughter's particular, my seven and 10 year old daughter they know where the best piece of that steak is gonna be and they always say, hey dad, I want this piece. So I'm giving away my best cuts of steak to those girls. But, you know, and then if they're still hungry,

Starting point is 01:24:49 you know, they'll get whatever, they'll get a piece of fruit, or they'll get, you know, whatever, they don't usually ask for vegetables. I don't think any kid in dream. Maybe some weird kids do, but most people, most kids, you know, they'll give me a piece of fruit, you know, that maybe a little yogurt or something like that, or a piece of dark chocolate,

Starting point is 01:25:03 you know, kind of the ketogenic type stuff. That's how they tend to eat. But there's days where they lowly eat meat and they're like, that we wouldn't want to do it. I have no problem. On those forums that you talked about with these people doing the carnivore diet, have you noticed anybody saying like after a certain amount of time like just sticking with meat that it was a challenge like just as far as not having variety and not having a different flavor to kind of introduce. Yeah, that's typically more early on

Starting point is 01:25:29 than later quite honestly. Most people, they get excited. Here's the thing. I don't expect the whole world to go carnivore. The whole world's never gonna do any diet. We're all gonna have variety. There are certain people like Berkeley young guys are right now they're doing to be cool.

Starting point is 01:25:45 Hey, I'm a carnivore, I'm a beast, you know, whatever they do. They're doing it just to be cool right now. So some guys are doing that. There's a significant population, literally do have some health issues. And so what they're finding is, you know, they got a transition, they got to use,

Starting point is 01:25:58 used to not running on carbohydrates. You know, for the first week or two, they're like, this is cool, I mean, steak every day. And then they start to get a little bit bored with this stuff You know there's people like yeah, you know I need a little more variety You know so what I and a lot of times they under eat they tend to because it's so satiating They find their energies low and because meat is really hard to eat you know

Starting point is 01:26:18 You know if I tell somebody to go eat two pounds of meat That's a challenge for most people for me. It's a snack now. I can stand across that Oh, you get palate fatigue really quickly, right? But but you know you you find it. It's a challenge for most people. For me, it's a snack now. I can just have to cross that. Oh, you get palate fatigue really quickly, sure. But, but, you know, you, you, you find that it's a little hard, but, you know, the people that do it a long time, they make it pass the first two or three months, those are the ones that find it. Now all of a sudden, all they want is steak. That, that sort of variety goes away from because they find it. I just really crave this nutrition. And, and literally I'm like my dogs now, you know, when I feed my dogs, I feed my dogs meat.

Starting point is 01:26:46 Every day they get the same damn meal, I don't give them a menu, and they're happy as can be. They're dancing, they're jumping, they're drooling all over the place, their tails are wagging. That's literally how I am when I'm cooking my steak. I'm like, yeah, I'm drooling.

Starting point is 01:26:58 I'm sitting here, I can't wait to eat this. You have to talk to people on Instagram, while I'm cooking this stuff, while I'm sitting here drooling, I'm drooling thinking about it right now because I haven't eaten breakfast. But, you know, so, but what I tell people initially is, you know, make as much varieties you can do it, you know, put bacon and eggs and a little bit of cheese on there, put a little

Starting point is 01:27:13 spices on there, rotate your meats, get some seafood, get some chicken, change it, change it, change it for a while, just to get you through that period of time because it's usually the first month or two where people have this variety issue. And then the people that sort of do this, then they find out that, man, I just really want meat. I just want to, I want steak. Steak, I think, you know, let's look at, again, back to evolution. I'm just thinking, what do we hunt?

Starting point is 01:27:35 What could we have hunted back then? It's probably easier to kill a big slow moving, room and animal with a spear because that's what we had than it is to kill a bird. I mean, how hard is it to throw a spear at a bear bird and eat chicken? So that's why I think a lot of people will find it, things like poultry. Again, poultry's not as nutritious in my view. I mean, if you look at the data, you know, in the U.S., we started, we've over the last, since about the 1970s, our beef consumption has dropped about 30 to 40 percent, and our chicken consumption has gone up to match that. So we're eating about the same amount of meat, but it's went from mostly meat to mostly chicken.

Starting point is 01:28:08 And you know, you can, you know, it's probably a response to the whole low fat thing. Yeah, exactly. Because you get these molest, in this chicken breast that tastes like garbage, you know, but you got to eat them because they're good for their health and you're gonna be low fat. But I think that, you know, and again,

Starting point is 01:28:21 as a red meat consumption has fallen, our obesity rates and our diabetes rates have gone up. So I'm like, you know, for the people that say, Red Meat is causing obesity and diabetes. Like, well, that doesn't really match up, you know. So, Red Meat's more nutrient- It's more nutrient- It's more nutrient-

Starting point is 01:28:38 I will tell you, as some of it only eats meat, it's more say shit. There's no doubt about it. You know, if you give me 100 pieces of meat in front of me, I'm gonna pick a ribeye steak 99 times out of 100 because I know it's got enough fat and the flavor's good and it's just very very nourishing and it is. It's nutrient dense. I mean, it's got all that heme iron, it's got all that protein, it's got all that creatine in there. It's got all the karnasin in there. All these, it's kind of funny. The supplements that seem to work. The ones that come

Starting point is 01:29:04 for meat. Yeah, I mean, you know, other than steroids, you know,in in there, all these, it's kind of funny, the supplements that seem to work. The ones that come for me. Yeah, I mean, you know, other than steroids, you know, but I mean, you think about it. You're like creatine, it's all found out. Nitrates are in me, you know, they're, it's funny, because nitrates should be evil until they found it worked in beet juice. No, yeah, nitrates are okay.

Starting point is 01:29:20 Nitric oxide, well that, you got it. So it's like, all the stuff that actually works is just found in me be like collagen supplementation. Just, you know, freaking steak, you know? That kind of answers my other question though as far as the expensive side. Like you look at like eating steaks all the time. That sounds like really expensive. But then if you're somebody that's supplementing with all these other products that cost, you

Starting point is 01:29:39 know, X amount of money. But like how do you, how do you like suggest like do you actually go like buy an actual Full-cow or like do you have like a huge freezer for all this stuff? Yeah, I don't have a huge enough freezer, you know, but I will buy in bulk, you know And I'll find out when it's so I want it's a good value and on his load up I'll buy 50 pounds Call the butcher up and say hey you got revised for five bucks a pound cut me 50 pounds of that stuff and all and all and they love it And I tell I tell the butchers about this carnivore stuff and they love it, man.

Starting point is 01:30:07 Those guys are like, yeah, that's cool. Oh, I bet. You know, best customer, right? But, you know, you know, ultimately I spend less money on this, you know, and then I would if I was eating a diet of organic fruits and vegetables and all this other, you know, processed stuff and the supplements that would need to come with it in a lot of cases. So ultimately my diet is cheaper. You know, and again, I'm atypical

Starting point is 01:30:29 because I'm a, I'm eating four pounds of meat today and it's mostly ribeye, which is more expensive than a lot of people can do. A lot of people do this on ground beef and they eat two pounds a day. And so you can, you can, you can make it happen on five, six bucks a day, which is, you know, it's a cup of coffee, it's Starbucks

Starting point is 01:30:43 in a lot of cases, I think. And so there are a lot of people, you know, and again, there's an argument, you know, do we have to have grass finished, you know, it's a cup of coffee, it's Starbucks, in a lot of cases, I think. And so, there are a lot of people, you know, and again, there's an argument, you know, do we have to have grass finished, you know, all this, this stuff, and I'll make the argument that there is not a lot of data that shows there's a huge nutritional difference on that when it comes to human health. I mean, I can tell you, from people that I've seen, observing it, from what I've seen myself, it doesn't make a difference in human health for most people. There may be a few people who say what I've seen myself, it doesn't make a difference in human health for most people. There may be a few people who say,

Starting point is 01:31:06 I feel better on grass-fed meat, but most people say, I can tell no difference or even the opposite. And if you look at, let's talk about hormones. I love people, there's hormones added to these beef, okay? An animal naturally produces hormones anyway. So even if you're eating grass-finished, hormone, quote unquote, hormone-free beef, you're still eating hormones.

Starting point is 01:31:24 Yes, this is the animal produced in the self and the stuff they give those animals, they give them testosterone, estrogen, estrogen, progesterone, and two other synthetic ones. But the animals display that stuff in it anyway. And so if you compare that, the amounts are when you implant the animals, the amounts go from a few nanograms, like six man and nanograms to nine nanograms, which is infinitesimally small amounts, right? If you compare that to what you produce in dodgingly in your own body, what you would get from eating an egg, what you would get from eating dairy, what you would get, you know, if

Starting point is 01:31:54 you were... Milk is the one that you'd have to be careful with with hormones. Yeah, milk and that one can have higher amounts. And then organ meats, organ meats have higher hormone amounts. So if you're going to say I need to eat liver and I need to eat dairy, it's way more than you're going to get from even a grain finished hormone and planted piece of beef. I would go organic just to avoid the glyphosate and shit that are in the, you know, the food, the grass that they may eat or the plant that they may eat.

Starting point is 01:32:19 Yeah, I think cows in particular are pretty good at detoxifying that stuff and that's it. But, you know, that's, that maybe, maybe an argument. I think the biggest argument for preferencing grass fed or grass finished animals versus the traditional sort of animals. Because most of the people don't understand this, but cows, whether they're finished on corn or grain, are spending 80% of their life on pasture anyway.

Starting point is 01:32:41 That's how they start. You know, if you go up to Harris Ranch, you know, I guess south of here, 80% of their life is spent on in pasture. So they're pastured anyway. They spend that last three, four months fatting up on grains. So it's not like they're never on grass. So when we talk about environmental impact, the other thing is if we want to talk about environmental impact, because this is a big topic, you know, people, well, how do you, this isn't sustainable? You know, regardless of how you finish the animal, you know, how you pasture on their whole life is really important. And so, if we decide,

Starting point is 01:33:14 we want to do this, if we, if people decide that, hey, meat is not the bad guy, meat is actually health food, which I think it is. I think it's one of the healthiest foods on a planet. If we start saying, well, wait a minute, if meat's healthy, we need to get more people to eat it. How do we make that happen? The US is pretty efficient. We, our carbon footprint's the lowest in the whole world. I mean, we've got very good efficiency practice through selective breeding.

Starting point is 01:33:35 We've got animals that make more meat for less feed, for less time. But I think the stuff like Alan Sayverish talked about Jill Salaton, how do we grazing animals properly rotating the pastures? And then we can actually, if the calculations are correct with the soil regeneration and the soil, putting the carbon and methane back into the soil, that could actually bring down the greenhouse gases with animals managed properly.

Starting point is 01:33:58 So it could be, again, if the will were there, the technology is there, we know how to do that, as a matter of having the will to do that. We could actually make it to where eating meat would be both environmentally sustainable, but a net positive for the environment. I agree completely. When it comes to feeding the world, it's not a food production problem at all. Nobody will, no economist will say it's a food production problem. It's a food distribution problem, which can only be solved through markets.

Starting point is 01:34:25 Let markets figure this out and make it more efficient. Well, if you look at Southeast Asia and Africa, how they manage their catalogs, it's very inefficient. That's where the problems tend to be in many cases, but you compare it to people that are meeting and being environment, diet, it's environmentally friendly. Well, you got your grapes and Venezuela, and you got your oranges from Australia. How much transportation cost you bring all that food, non-seasonal? 100 percent, right.

Starting point is 01:34:53 How much does that impact the environment? It's very true. I think what it is is that when you look at diets in general and how people eat, and yes, there is, you have to agree, right? I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with them. There's a massive individual variance, right? Some people do well on some things and others don't. And there are general truth, but the individuals themselves can be quite, quite, quite different in terms of how they respond to these types of things. But,

Starting point is 01:35:16 you know, when you look at, when you look at diets, only one type of diet has a moral, ethical, religious fervor behind it. And that's veganism. And I always said this, if this is how you want to eat, I totally support it. But there is no other diet where somebody eats it because they believe not eating that way is immoral and killing or murder. Whereas vegans believe many vegans, not all, but at least the most consistent ones. Because if you look at the literature

Starting point is 01:35:46 vegans who eat who eat that way because they think it's healthy don't stay vegan very long or at least they go on and off all the time They cheat quite a bit in fact. I read an interesting study where vegans who when they drink alcohol tend to eat a you know meat after drinking alcohol because they're inhibitions are down But vegans who are vegans because of the moral ethical or down, but vegans who are vegans because of the moral ethical, you know, in quotes, religious aspect of it where they believe firmly that killing animals is murder, they tend to be extremely consistent. And I think because, I mean, if I thought every time I ate something, I was killing, like I was murdering something, you better believe I would, if I believe that strongly about it, I would use everything at my disposal to make my case everything, the environment, it's better for the environment.

Starting point is 01:36:28 I would say, you know, of course it's immoral. I would say, you know, I would make crazy claims about, you know, the health and how much better it is for you and how much worse it is. And I would make documentaries showing the plight of these animals and I would go to schools and teach. And so that's, that's, I I think where a lot of that comes from. I think a lot of that information, and of course, food manufacturers who,

Starting point is 01:36:51 because it's a billion, billion dollar industry, they're gonna grab onto that, because now you've got this group of people who are gonna preach, selling your stuff because they believe so wholeheartedly that eating an animal is murder. I think that's where a lot of that information comes from. People who eat lots of meat don't do it

Starting point is 01:37:07 with that same type of fervor. So again, you're not eating it to save. You're not eating meat to save plants. Yeah, I mean, you know, what I, because I've gotten, I used to start to, I used to debate with the vegans, and I just nod as block them, because I just don't want to deal with that sort of silly.

Starting point is 01:37:20 But I would say, you know, this is my question. I said, if your health was bad, and the only way you could improve it, was by eating meat, would you do that? And they would all say no. And I would say, I would just say, then you're not logical. Then you're not logical.

Starting point is 01:37:33 It's like converting someone's religion, you can't do it. Yeah, I was just like, okay, if you want to sacrifice your other, it's fine, but don't expect me to do that. Don't expect everyone else to do that stuff. And so, but yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I've talked to some people that know some of these people that I was talking with the Vinny Torner, and he said he had a relatively famous vegan on it. He goes, hey, man, I won't say the guy's name, but he said, hey, man,

Starting point is 01:37:52 why are you guys sort of letting out some of this misinformation? And I was like, it's for the greater good. I mean, it's just, yeah, of course, it's just for the greater good. Totally sounds like a religion right there. We don't, we don't, the means justify the, you know, the end is just by the means, you know. Hey, man, if people were eating, you know, humans, I would, you better believe I would say everything to get them to stop eating humans. And a lot of vegans, they, they, they make it parallel.

Starting point is 01:38:16 Like animals are like people. And I saw a display once where there were, there were people making a protest and they were, they had shrinkwrap themselves. Yeah. And they were naked lying on the floor. they were like they were meet like with a label on them and you know It's because they and look here's a deal like if you have that kind of you know if you really love animals and you're doing it in a way that

Starting point is 01:38:38 In your you know for your beliefs and you're not lying like all power to you But a lot of this information is coming from that side and a lot of it's just not true. Now I'm not saying eating all meat is the best either. So I'm not saying that either and I know you're a big support of that Sean. But I do enjoy what you're saying about, in support of it.

Starting point is 01:38:59 And I don't hear you saying, this is the way everybody should eat. Whereas I hear that from other people and other diets. This is the way everybody should eat. In fact, I don't want everybody to eat that because it's a dry, they're priced up too much. Yeah, that's right. It's like it hard for me to say that. No, but I, you know, I, you know, like I said, I truly am doing this because I want people to, to find an option to help their healthcare. They're, they're healthy issues because, you know, there's people that have, I mean, literally horrible, horrible diseases that, you know, they go to

Starting point is 01:39:24 the doctors for 10, 15 years, going from drug to drug to specialist to specialist, and they're, I mean, they're depressed, they're miserable, and they're literally able to change their life around doing this stuff, and I think this is a very powerful tool. You know, there, here's what, you know, people ask me about genetic diversity, you know, how do people tolerate different types?

Starting point is 01:39:42 Well, we know, again, I'll use the evolutionary argument, three million years ago we've been eating meat, so I think most of us tolerate meat pretty well for the most part. Can you tolerate other things? That becomes a question. Can you tolerate certain weats? Can you tolerate dairy?

Starting point is 01:39:54 I mean, that probably, because those things were introduced into our 10, 10, 15,000 years ago, people that grew up in those regions, at least, ancestrally, probably have a greater capacity to handle those things. Even some of the vegetables that we buy in those regions, you know, at least ancestrally probably have a greater capacity to handle this. Even some of the vegetables that we buy in the grocery store, we know most of the vegetables that we buy in the

Starting point is 01:40:10 grocery store today, they didn't exist. I mean, they weren't even, they weren't created over the last several thousand years. So, you know, people who haven't been eating broccoli for 50,000 years, it's only the last, you know, even hundreds of years. You're 100% right. If you look at lactose intolerance, they actually, they can show you like if you're from the Northern European regions, the rate of lactose intolerance is extremely low when you compare it to the Mediterranean or some Asian cultures or some African cultures, minus maybe the

Starting point is 01:40:38 Messiah people, where lactose intolerance is like 70 to 80%. Meanwhile, you go up to Northern Europe and 95% of the people can tolerate dairy, no problem, which part of the world was using dairy and making it a staple in their diet, first, well, it was the Northern Europeans. So it makes perfect sense. Yeah, I got back from Iceland, and they're skier and all the Icelandic yogurt

Starting point is 01:41:01 and stuff like that. This is funny, because I went to Iceland, and Iceland's only got about 300 and I got about 350,000 people, they're not a big country, but look what they've produced from athletics standpoint. They've got eight world strong man titles. They're massive.

Starting point is 01:41:16 I mean, you got Magnus from Magnuson and John Paul Stigmar, and those guys and the guys, and then they've got how many CrossFit athletes? They have one crossfit titles Tiny tiny country. What is their historical diet? I mean, it's it's lamb it's seafood It's dairy and they have very little fruits and vegetables and a little bit of grain They got a little bit of grain some rye bread that they had to import from Denmark

Starting point is 01:41:38 And so when I'm talking to these people right now, so Iceland has 300,000 people ish They've got a thousand people trying this carnivore diet. Oh wow. I mean, that's a huge percentage. That's a big percentage. You know, compared to the US, where we maybe have 20, 30,000 people who are doing it right now. And only because I'm, you know, getting out there, I mean, crazy. It's on your fault. So many. But I mean, so they've got a huge percentage of people doing it, but they get it because they look, I live on this frigging frozen island. It makes sense to me from a, from an ev an, you know, just a historical standpoint.

Starting point is 01:42:06 You know, I just don't have access to this stuff. They've got a big vegan population now, they've got like 20,000 people in their group or maybe it's 5,000, but you know, because they're getting this western influence from the rest of them. But the people that are like, yeah, my grandfather, he pretty much only ate animal products and he lived 200. They have, you know, not only are they big, beastly, strong people kick ass athletes.

Starting point is 01:42:28 They have more 100 year old men than anywhere else on the planet per capita. You know, there's more Icelandic since the days. In the blue zone? I did not know that. It's not a blue zone. It's not, I don't know how to determine these blue zones. That's another thing that I can certainly talk on that stuff,

Starting point is 01:42:44 but Iceland is a healthy, healthy country. I did not know that, because I am familiar with like touch on the island of Sardinia, touch on the blues ones. Yeah, touch on the blues ones. You know, all these other places where they have a high amount of, you know, centarians, but I did not know about Iceland. Yeah, Iceland is, I mean, it's not considered

Starting point is 01:42:59 technically a blues one, you know, you can look at Hong Kong. You know, this is another one, another place. Hong Kong, if you look at a life, life, you know, longevity statistics, Hong Kong is like number one or number two in the world right now. And there's seven million people. It's not like some little like Loma Linda where they've got 50,000 people. Seven million people.

Starting point is 01:43:17 Yeah, but I mean, so they've got a huge population. They're living longer than anybody else. And they put away the meat there. I mean, they make, they put the US to shame on their red meat consumption and their pork consumption. I mean, they eat a ton of meat and they're living a ton really, really long time. So I don't know who decided how these blue zones were picked out.

Starting point is 01:43:33 It's kind of like, the other thing is so Okinawa is considered a blue zone, right? And the vegans love the point. This one out, they say, well, Okinawa, they lived a long time. They ate a lot of carbohydrates, a lot of rice. They all say, you know, they all say pork and seafood and stuff like that. But one of the things they did a study on the Okinawins that lived over a hundred, the only ones that lived over a hundred were not vegetarians. There were no vegetarians that lived over a hundred, only ones that lived over a hundred

Starting point is 01:43:59 was ones that included meat in their diet. You know, if you look at the, you know, because they love to tout the seventh day Adventist study, because they've got, you know, who are the seventh day Adventists, you know, they're, you know, they're, they're a religious group, you know, basically at a low in the Linde, that has a big vegetarian founding situation back there.

Starting point is 01:44:15 It's the religion. It's like the 1800s. And so they, they don't smoke, they don't drink, they don't, I don't think they drink caffeine. They exercise. They exercise. It's part of the body. That's the religion.

Starting point is 01:44:26 That is why they live long. It's not the big enough. And so when they look at this study, they like to quote that study. The ones that live the longest in that group are the ones that actually include fish in their diet. So when they had animal food back and they live even longer, and then if you compare that to another similar religious group like the Mormons, the Mormons live just as long, but they're meat eaters.

Starting point is 01:44:47 And so, you know, when we talk about what actually impacts longevity really diet has a rather role, but it's not a huge role. If you go, if you live in a rich country that has good access to healthcare and favorable climate, certain geographic latitude, you live longer. It's not, you know, that's why Sweden, and Monaco, and France, and Switzerland, and places like that have some of the highest longevity in the world, it's because they're wealthy countries,

Starting point is 01:45:13 and diet, and they eat a ton of meat there. Those places eat tons of meat. It's not, it's not the, you know, it's not the veganism. You look at India, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan. They are the most vegetarian countries in the world. Their life in sexy is like 68, you know, you know, poverty pays a role in that as well. I mean, there's some impoverished places. This is the thing that people like to point out.

Starting point is 01:45:34 Well, the Messiah or the Inuit didn't live as long. You know, their life is actually 60s or 70s compared to people living in other parts of Canada. Again, socioeconomic status is the biggest driver of longevity. So if you compare like the, the Inuit compared to somebody equally impoverished because these people are living on the fringe, they're living up in the frozen world. If you live to your 70 and you're living in harsh conditions, and they have no, very little access to healthcare,

Starting point is 01:46:02 if you compare that to somebody like in Africa, you know, Central Africa or something like that, and has similar living conditions, they outlive them by quite a bit. So it's, you know, because they always like to point out that they didn't live as long. The same thing was saying, you know, prehistoric man, they lived a 25. That's a lot of that doesn't take into account, you know, infant mortality rates. You know, if you know, they were, they've been by a dime average of it. Yeah, but no, but it's not.

Starting point is 01:46:24 They have actually found foussel records of people that they think are 50 60 60 years old living in the prehistoric times and that presupposes So the way we date skeletal skeletal remains right you can date kids pretty well when I look at an x-ray I can look at an x-ray of a kid's hand and I can say I like kids about four or five years old I'm usually accurate within a few months or a year at least. Once you reach skeletal maturity, say 25 when your clavicle ossifies, it becomes harder to date that. So you have to look at wear and tear things. Sometimes they look at rates of cartilage, ossification in the ribs, but that presupposes

Starting point is 01:46:59 people aids the same way that we do now. And we know. And the same thing, the dental. It's interesting. So what they're doing is they're taking like, you know, they're taking some guy from 1850 and they say, they know this guy lived to 62. And this is what his bones look like. And so they're saying, well, this is what a guy who lived 20,000 years ago's bones should look like when that doesn't hold up. And even the guys that do this, they say there's a big issue with that. So we don't even know for sure if those adult skeletons

Starting point is 01:47:22 that look young and healthy, maybe they weren't't 25 maybe they were 55. Yeah, maybe they were 70. They just looked awesome But they didn't get all this disease process from eating on the wheat and all the all the other stuff that we And they were active as hell. Yeah, exactly And they were active as well. So I mean, it's it's it's fascinating a lot of a lot of the dogma that we have out there a lot of our nutritional Trues are based on really shaky stuff. And so I think it's, you know, I think to me, it's like, to me, I say, you know, this way I say, well, let's just run the clock back and say,

Starting point is 01:47:52 let's assume humans are basically carnivorous animals, which we are, I think there's no doubt about it. And then let's put nutrition in that frame. And did we eat berries from time to time? Did we find some stuff sure we did? What's that impact of that? For many people, it's good. It's negative. I mean, What's that impact of that? For many people, it's good. It's negative.

Starting point is 01:48:06 I mean, there's no negative to that. For some people, it's an issue, depending on what plant there is. We can't eat 98.5% of the plants on Earth. We cannot eat. It doesn't make a very good argument that we're herbivores, which the vegans try to do, which I think is just insane. Why would you be an herbivore when you can't eat most of these plants on the planet, when you can eat every single animal? So if you jump, you know, you can, you can look at some of these things about

Starting point is 01:48:29 protein. You know, this is another thing. You get too much protein. It's gonna. It's gonna destroy your kidneys. We've got so many research studies coming out here. Jose Antonio, I don't know if you're familiar with his work. Ran a bunch of resistance trains guys and he fed them. It was like four grams per pound, you know, a protein. Wow. No issue with kidney issues. It was a short term, shorter term study, but you know, when it come,

Starting point is 01:48:51 I think it was out of year, I think it had not fall up up to two years ago. Now here's a deal though with protein is that, you know, supplement companies will push incredible amounts of protein through supplementation. I think if you're just eating meat, you're probably not going to consume more than, because I'm telling you, right now.

Starting point is 01:49:07 Yeah, good luck eating four grams per pound of body weight all steak. That would be tough. Yeah, you'd have it. I do it. You'd have it. You'd have it. You'd have it. You're also a massive human being. I mean, sure, some people get a lot of... I've worked out to that. Sure, some people can get away with it,

Starting point is 01:49:19 but it would be tough for most people. Like 150 pound female, or 130 pound female trying to get 300 grams of protein a day. She might have a tough time to do that. Right, right. I mean, yeah, like I said, if I wanted to eat 800 grams of protein a day, I couldn't do it in your intake. I mean, I could do it with, I could take some weight protein, mix it up, mix it up in

Starting point is 01:49:38 water, and I could do that pretty easily without. But, you know, what is too much protein? How do we determine that? And I think, again, if you're on a diet, you're a whole food natural, human appropriate diet, you have something called an appetite, right? And there's your age. There's your age, and I think, I think,

Starting point is 01:49:55 I love what you're saying. No, I think we were designed, there was some intelligence that went into our design, and why do we have an appetite? Cause you're supposed to eat, you're supposed to eat. That's why these people that are, they're like, you got gotta fast all this time. I prefer the term intermittent feasting.

Starting point is 01:50:10 I just eat, I crush a bunch of food, and then I eat again when I'm hungry. How does that work out for you? How long do you go without? So for me, typically, this is a natural pattern for me, is I usually eat about twice a day. So I usually might, depending on what workout schedule, I might eat a breakfast, work out at a lunch hour,

Starting point is 01:50:26 and then eat again, five, six o'clock a night, and then not eat again for 14, 16 hours. And that, again, you get the benefits of a topogy, right? I mean, some people argue it's a different timeframe, but I would say it probably isn't. But when I'm hungry and I'm only eating one thing, why would my body tell me I'm hungry if I'm only giving it one thing? So it's telling me I'm hungry and I'm only eating one thing, you know, why would my body tell me I'm hungry if I'm only giving it one thing?

Starting point is 01:50:47 So it's telling me I'm hungry because, hey, dumb, but you need some energy and you need some, you need some structure. And so for me, it's just, it just makes sense. That's how every other animal in the wild does it. You know, and some people will start arguing well, lions don't always, they're not always successful when they're hunt, when they hunt.

Starting point is 01:51:02 Well, yeah, but they're still trying. You know, it's not like they're saying, I'm gonna sit here and wait. I'm gonna wait till tomorrow, because I got this intermittent fast, I'm doing. I mean, you know, and I would say pre-stork humans are the same thing. I mean, I would say.

Starting point is 01:51:14 We probably went without food for a long period of time, just because it was, I don't think you, like eating meat twice a day, you'd have to be a damn good, successful hunter, and maybe some refrigeration. Well, I mean, it depends on where you live. And I think, you know, I think to your point, you know, you got to make your own name fire and you're a nomad and you're not carrying a kitchen with you. I mean, you might, you know, you're probably cooking on rocks and you

Starting point is 01:51:33 build your own fire. So they probably, my guess is they probably had about once a day. But, you know, if you think about, again, one of the problems we, you, people use is modern hunter gatherer, gatherers to approximate what we probably did 20,000 years ago. We don't live in the same world. Modern hunter gavators are on the fringes. They're dealing with the dregs of what's left. Back then, we had these vast herds of megafaunt. We had mammoths that we wiped out with impunity.

Starting point is 01:52:01 I mean, we just took these mammoths out. You kill a mamm, say you're at 11 in a tribe at 20, 30 dudes and you take down a mammoth. How much meat do you have? And it's the ice age. And it's cold and you probably can figure it out at the store this stuff. You got food for a little while there.

Starting point is 01:52:13 You got food for a little while. So maybe you only got to kill a mammoth every two months. And so maybe you're not going through all these periods where you're starving. I'd say there's at least periods of time. So you don't do fasting then or prolong fasting? I don't do, I'm not gonna go sit there. I'm working out. I'm not gonna sit there and spend three, four days

Starting point is 01:52:26 without eating. I mean, I'm just like, what the fuck? I mean, you know, I mean, I, I, haven't seen the science supporting the prolonged. Yeah, I mean, I know some of the, I know some of the some of the theory behind that. But again, who's what population is doing that carbohydrate planning populations, right? It's showing huge benefits to these. Well, even Dr. Walter Longo talks, he's like one of the leading world, right? Sure, sure. And he does a fasting mimicking diet, which is, of course, no carbohydrates. Right, yeah.

Starting point is 01:52:51 So I mean, there's, there's, again, all the data that we've seen on animal studies which show cow restriction leads to longevity, it's all done in animals eating carbohydrates. And so we don't have a good pure percarnaval study showing that, that they've done some dog studies, but what were they feeding the dogs? They're feeding the dogs' dog food, which is grains and all that crap. And they show that if they ate less grain, dog food, they live a little longer. But, you know, I've not seen, again, this is my thought on this stuff,

Starting point is 01:53:16 with all this stuff, because all theoretical, until you've got guys walking around at 120 years old that are still jacked, You know, this is all theory. So if you put too much faith in that stuff, I mean, to me, it's just, you know, it's a leap of faith. And you know, we'll see, you know, like I said, it's the same thing with the Chromium Picana Lake, you know. Yeah, that sounded like a good time, I didn't think of the time,

Starting point is 01:53:36 and then the science went by, and now you're like, so for me, you know, I don't care, I don't know what I'm gonna die. I mean, I have no idea. I mean, I make it hit by a bus tomorrow, who knows, the vegans will blame it on me, of course, but I'm serious. But what I think is, what can I do today

Starting point is 01:53:54 to get myself as healthy as possible, and how do I gauge that? Again, what's my libido-like skin, like strength-like capacity, like what's my exercise capacity? Like all those things to me, if you're strong and fit in your thirties, you know, if you're strong and fit in your 30s, you're more likely to be strong and fit in your 40s

Starting point is 01:54:09 than if you weren't. And so to me, that's just a simple, you know, I have this, you know, try to make things as simple as possible and some people, it makes their head explode because they're like, I gotta have everything complicated, I have to have calculators to figure out what to do, how to live, what labs to get, what macros to count. You know, and so I'm just like it's it can be very simple, you know, pretend you're a stupid animal and just get on with your life.

Starting point is 01:54:33 Well, you make I mean, I appreciate a lot of the stuff you're saying. I don't necessarily Well, it's see here's a deal. It's not that I disagree with you because you're not necessarily speaking in absolutes But you make a very compelling case. And you're talking about, you know, evidence and you're making a lot of sense. And I appreciate it. I really appreciate it because one thing that you said that I agree with 100% is that there needs to be a counter argument. Yes.

Starting point is 01:54:59 Whether it's right or wrong, maybe you're completely wrong, maybe you're way out there, but there does need to be a counter argument because there doesn't exist, there isn't one right now. And if you just get one side all the time, you're going to get some mistakes. Well, that's why I always appreciate outliers. You know, I like people challenging, like common thought. And so this is what definitely drew you to my attention. And I thought it'd be a good conversation. And of course, you know, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

Starting point is 01:55:23 I'm looking forward to seeing what your, your, your results look like on Rob Wolff's podcast. Sure. Sure. I'll talk to you. I'll talk to you though, I'm off air. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:55:34 I mean, this is a thing because we have some freaky allies. You look at the bodybuilder community and stuff like that. I'm like, how do you get lean and muscular? Well, ask a fucking bodybuilder. Don't ask a nutritionist. You know, because it's just like, you know, how do you get lean and muscular? Well, ask a fucking bodybuilder. Yeah. Don't ask a nutritionist, you know, because you know, it's just like, you know, these guys, you know, they're pushing the envelope and sometimes you need to get these guys to push the envelope. Somebody had to learn how to fly, you know, somebody had to learn how to build an airplane. So you got to have the guys that are willing to be on the edge and be a little crazy stuff, crazy stuff. And you know, a lot of times it's the athletes because

Starting point is 01:56:03 they're like, I just want to perform, you you know and so they do what they need to do Not that I'm promoting taking a bunch of drugs and stuff like that but I mean You know so it's you know it's an outlier. Yeah, it certainly may be wrong. I mean certainly at the end of the day You're listening to your body right? So if your body told you to change it Yeah, I mean like here's a thing because you know I don't know if you got a mark global honor. He's a he's a fitness guy bodybuilder guy And he he wants to do the carnivore diet. And he's like, man, but I sell way protein for a living.

Starting point is 01:56:27 And I'm like, I'm like, you know, I'm like, well, you know, way protein probably doesn't, you don't need way protein if you're eating all meat. I don't see a real reason what I got, but dude, man, I'm so way processed. So here's what I would do. You know, I would be cut down your meat, you know, you had some way protein,

Starting point is 01:56:40 include a little extra fat in there, so you kind of get at least a normal meat-like ratio. And he's like, oh yeah, cool, that's great. So now he's in there doing that stuff. And so I said, well, I've got some way protein. My house I haven't used in a year because I've been sitting on my shelf, because I'm like, why do I need way protein

Starting point is 01:56:54 when I'm getting 400 grams of protein in there? So I had some of that, ate it, and I was like, I was like, GI distressed, and I woke up in the middle of the night with diarrhea. I'm like, fuck the way protein. I don't need that stuff. But I mean, you know, at some point, because there's more and more athletes wanting to do this

Starting point is 01:57:09 and are asking me, well, how can I do a cheat meal? How do I sneak in? Because it's the same thing with the ketogenic diet, and I did all that stuff, cyclic ketogenic diet, target a ketogenic diet, the carb night stuff. I did all those things, and for me, I didn't find a big benefit in that stuff, and a lot of times it just made me feel more lethargic. My digestion was an issue. And so I found

Starting point is 01:57:28 that wasn't a net benefit for me. It's not the main, not to say that you can't do this a lot of different ways. And, you know, maybe you eat carnivore, you know, there's some carnivore purist out there. And I deal with these people and I understand what they're getting at. And they're mostly dealing with sick people. And they got people that don't have discipline. And if they, if they have a bite of a, of a, youve, they're gonna go crazy, and they're gonna end up on a three-month binge eating cupcakes and wreck all their health, and so there's people that like, we don't want you to do that. But at the same time, you know, because I'm pretty disciplined, I mean, I ate a crappy near vegan diet for six months, you know, I'm gonna eat this shit

Starting point is 01:57:59 because I think I'm making me hell out of that. I'm disciplined enough, you know, as an athlete, you find it, you know, you do what it takes, you sacrifice, and you do what it takes to get the job done. So I could, you know, certainly see that, you know, maybe I could do a piece of fruit here and there, and if it didn't mess me up, then that might have a net positive to my performance. And so maybe I'll experiment with that,

Starting point is 01:58:18 going forward, I'm not sure, I don't want to, like I said, right now I want to be fair, and be honest about what I'm doing and saying, what does it all mean that I do to me, physiologically I said, right now I want to be fair and be honest about what I'm doing and saying what doesn't all meet that do to me Physiologically performance wise and health wise and you know, so that's where you know I'm kind of at I'm 14 months in I'm still doing better. I'm you know My performance continues to get better. I feel like I'm getting healthier I like the way I feel and you know if that changes and certainly I'm not opposed to changing that

Starting point is 01:58:42 I think we should all be open to that stuff. Well, I really appreciate you doing all this and I appreciate the way you talk about it. Oh, when you did your blood test, did you get your hormones tested also? That was another question I had. Yes, I did some of them. I probably get some more, you know, Rob's got, he's got a, he's involved with some group,

Starting point is 01:59:00 it's got some advanced testing stuff that I'm gonna probably add a few more tests in before I go there, but I did do some of that stuff. I have a I have a hunch that you know, I'm not a hunch I mean, there's some evidence to suggest that eating more especially saturated fats and your diet will increase Testosterone and we are in an epidemic of lower testosterone men It's been going down for for decades now So yeah, I think that you're there some evidence to sit and I've seen a number of guys And I won't talk about my lab because but I've seen a number of guys, I won't talk about my lab because But I've seen a number of guys have done this and have shown, you know an increase in their testosterone from doing this for a couple months

Starting point is 01:59:31 So that that interesting. I think there's a lot of you know again I I think we put a lot of faith in a single number and I think there's some more variables to go into our hormone system that we have to be cognizant about So I'll just leave it at that, but you'll talk off the air and I'll get this. Thanks, and well thanks for coming on, man. I really appreciate it. Go to YouTube, check out MindPumpTV. This is where we post videos, different content than we do on the podcast, and they are

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 712: Dr. Shawn Baker- Carniovore Diet Advocate

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