Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 725: Mikhaila Peterson's Personal Account of Treating Debilitating Disease Through Diet

Episode Date: March 12, 2018

In this episode, Sal, Adam & Justin speak with Mikhaila Peterson who recounts the horrible health challenges she has faced from the time she was a child and how she finally found relief through diet. Would you like to be coached by Sal, Adam & Justin? You can get 30 days of virtual coaching from them for FREE at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Her personal account of her childhood years of dealing with crippling depression and debilitating arthritis. (4:08) Convincing myself that all my problems were gone. Through doing her own research she went on the elimination diet and rid herself of her skin issues and arthritis. (25:20) The change in me was so drastic, he couldn’t deny it. How she convinced herself and her dad that an all meat diet was the key to getting her health back. (38:12) My brain was so fuzzy that I can’t remember anything before that. Does she feel different being off all these painkillers? On guard? (52:00) You have to be so paranoid it’s ridiculous. How through her example she has tried to help her parents follow her lead and the difficulties that have come from it. (57:00) You are either really sick and you die or you don’t. Where does her inner strength come from? (1:04:00) I’m going to keep it pretty limited and monitor it. The ways she will feed her baby. (1:07:00) My husband’s parents won’t recognize me. The push back she has received from her own in-laws! (1:10:00) It makes me feel bad that I have felt this pain and not tell anyone about it. What she recommends people to do if they have these issues. (1:14:50) Genes load the gun and lifestyle pulls the trigger It hasn’t made much of a difference compared to what I eat. Has exercise played a part in her health improvement? (1:23:40) Links/Products Mentioned: Digesting Depression – YouTube Coeliac disease and rheumatoid arthritis The vaginal microbiome of pregnant women is less rich and diverse, with lower prevalence of Mollicutes, compared to non-pregnant women Leaky gut syndrome Cannabis and Pain: A Clinical Review A proactive charcoal approach shields the gut microbiome from systemic antibiotics Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system What to Do If You're on Medication - Don't Eat That So depression is an inflammatory disease, but where does the inflammation come from? Ep 620-Chris Kresser - Mind Pump Media From Stress to Inflammation and Major Depressive Disorder: A Social Signal Transduction Theory of Depression Ep 715-Mind Pump Goes Deep with Ben Pakulski Nutrition During Pregnancy and the Effect of Carbohydrates on the Offspring’s Metabolic Profile: In Search of the “Perfect Maternal Diet” Featured Guest/People Mentioned: Mikhaila Peterson (@mikhailapeterson) Instagram Mikhaila Peterson Jordan B Peterson (@jordanbpeterson)  Twitter Chris Kresser M.S., L.Ac. (@chriskresser)  Instagram Paul Chek (@paul.chek) Instagram Ben Pakulski (@ifbbbenpak)  Instagram Get our newest program, MAPS HIIT, an expertly programmed and phased High Intensity Interval Training program designed to maximize fat burn and improve conditioning. Get it at www.mindpumpmedia.com! Get MAPS Prime, MAPS Anywhere, MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, MAPS Aesthetic, the Butt Builder Blueprint, the Sexy Athlete Mod AND KB4A (The MAPS Super Bundle) packaged together at a substantial DISCOUNT at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Make EVERY workout better with MAPS Prime, the only pre-workout you need… it is now available at mindpumpmedia.com Also check out Thrive Market! Thrive Market makes purchasing organic, non-GMO affordable. With prices up to 50% off retail, Thrive Market blows away most conventional, non-organic foods. PLUS, they offer a NO RISK way to get started which includes: 1. One FREE month’s membership 2. $20 Off your first three purchases of $49 or more (That’s $60 off total!) 3. Free shipping on orders of $49 or more You insure your car but do you insure YOU? If you don’t, and you are the primary breadwinner, you will likely leave your loved ones facing hardship and struggle if you die (harsh reality). Perhaps you think life insurance is expensive, but if you are fit and healthy, you can qualify for approved rates that are truly inexpensive and affordable. To find out if you qualify for the best rates in the industry, go get a quote at www.HealthIQ.com/mindpump Have Sal, Adam & Justin personally train you via video instruction on our YouTube channel, Mind Pump TV. Be sure to Subscribe for updates. Get your Kimera Koffee at www.kimerakoffee.com, code "mindpump" for 10% off! Get Organifi, certified organic greens, protein, probiotics, etc at www.organifi.com Use the code “mindpump” for 20% off. Go to foursigmatic.com/mindpump and use the discount code “mindpump” for 15% off of your first order of health & energy boosting mushroom products. Add to the incredible brain enhancing effect of Kimera Koffee with www.brain.fm/mindpump 10 Free sessions! Music for the brain for incredible focus, sleep and naps! Also includes 20% if you purchase! Please subscribe, rate and review this show! Each week our favorite reviewers are announced on the show and sent Mind Pump T-shirts! Have questions for Mind Pump? Each Monday on Instagram (@mindpumpmedia) look for the QUAH post and input your question there. (Sal, Adam & Justin will answer as many questions as they can)

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. This guest, we found actually through someone else. We had gotten into Jordan Peterson's lectures on YouTube and then when we were reading his book, we've mentioned his book, 12 for life a few times and so I was going through his videos And then I saw an interview where he was on it looked like it was a TV show Like a rate like a news TV like a yeah Canadian news channel or something and he was on there with his daughter

Now he had a reference to his daughter in one of his lectures and apparently in his lecture He talked about how challenging her life was early on. I guess she had some health issues and stuff. And that was all he had said. So then when I saw this interview with him and his daughter who now at this point was an adult, I was very interested because obviously

we're a fitness and health podcast. I want to see what this was all about. And she shared this just incredibly compelling story of how she treated severe autoimmune issues where her rheumatoid arthritis was so bad. And it was, they didn't know what the cause was, but you know, she ended up finding out what the cause was herself. But they didn't know what the cause was. She had to get an ankle replacement and a hip replacement at the age of 17.

She'd been on antidepressants since she was 12. Horrible crushing fatigue. And the crazy part about this, I mean, that alone is compelling. Her dad is a clinical psychologist who's also a bit of a celebrity. How did they deal with all that? And then you got the fact that she has depression

that runs in the family, not just her. Her dad and her grandfather. And she threw nutrition and through diet was able to solve much of her health issues, everything from the depression to the rheumatism and her joints. I mean, just an incredible story. So I saw this video of her,

and I'm like, I wanna talk to her because of her, the fact that she's indirectly in the Western medicine field, because I know how Western medicine can be about this kind of stuff. Like you talk to a psychologist about treating or working on depression with diet, and they'll, like nobody wants to talk about that.

It's actually a third rail almost, or it has no effect. You go to a dermatologist to talk about your skin. Nutrition has no effect. You talk to an autoimmune doctor about treating your autoimmune issues with diet. Nope, doesn't have an effect. So I'm like, this is very interesting. And yet you see what it did for,

and it also reminds me a lot of like, Dr. Terry Walls and like what she went through. It's a very similar type of a story, and it's reminds me a lot of like Dr. Terry Walls and like what she went through. It's a very similar type of a story and it's through nutrition, you know, she was able to heal herself. It's so great. So it's a really compelling story. We had a very good time talking to her.

We think you're gonna enjoy it. I also wanna mention that this month, we are giving away free access to our private forum. All you have to do to get that is enroll in any of our maps, bundles. If you're not gonna enroll in the bundle, they're gonna tell everybody what maps read, basically, is for maps, green and maps,

but I always get that. What exactly are you doing? So, if you wanna build just strength and muscle, that's maps and a ballad. If you wanna sculpt your body and you're relatively experienced or you wanna compete on stage, that's maps aesthetic. If you want athletic performance, well, that's maps performance.

And if you have any joint pain or issues with movement, that's maps prime and maps prime pro. And we have bundles that combine most of those together and discounts them. And if you do a bundle, of course, you get free access to the forum. Those you can find at mindpumpmedia.com. Now, without any further ado, here is Michaela Peterson. By the way, she writes a blog where she talks about

this whole process. You can find it at MichaelaPeterson.com. Now Michaela is spelled M-I-K-H-A-I-L-A, and then Peterson. So MichaelaPeterson.com. And you can also find her on Instagram at MichaelaPeterson. So again, here we are talking to Michaela Peterson.com. And you can also find her on Instagram at Michaela Peterson. So again, here we are talking to Michaela Peterson. I found you, because so first I found your dad,

Jordan Peterson, I watched an interview he did, the one that blew up everywhere. And then I listened to his 12 rules lecture that he did. I think it was in the UK. And in there, he talked about you and then how you had some health issues growing up. It was very, very brief. And then I found a video with you and him

talking about how nutrition, how you use nutrition to basically heal yourself. And it was absolutely fascinating. It was a fat, I brought it. As soon as I heard it, I came over here, I put it on the TV and I showed these guys because I thought it was just such a compelling story. And we talk a lot, obviously our show

was a health and fitness-based one. And we talk a lot about it and how food and nutrition can affect most aspects of life. We've experienced this just through training people. We've worked with people for 15 to 20 years. And to hear someone like yourself having gone through what you did, and then having worked with nutrition to solve some of that stuff was just and with your background because you have an, you have actually a parent who's a psychologist. I mean, just absolutely fascinating. So if you wouldn't mind starting from the beginning of when you were a kid and what happened with your health

and just start from there and then we'll take from there. So when my parents noticed maybe problems when I was two, they'd put me on their shoulders and then when they put me down I'd cry and sit down. So they figured looking back that I had hip issues then. But when we moved, dad taught at Harvard, and when we moved from Boston to Toronto, I started getting like slow, walking up and down the stairs one foot at a time, crying, like just not being a happy kid anymore. And they figured maybe it was the move that had done it. But I started

lagging behind getting slower and slower, and eventually I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, which they later changed to idiopathic arthritis, because I don't have the blood markers. So. How did they determine that it was arthritis if it was idiopathic, was it just from symptoms? Yeah, so I had like minor joint swelling,

so it was hard to catch, but the joint swelling was there, but I ended up being diagnosed with 37 active joints, and I was in grade two. Wow. Yeah, so that was really not good. Do you remember that back then? It's kind of hard when you're a kid, because parts of going to the doctor

is still like novel and fun. So yeah, I remember it, but I didn't know what arthritis was or how awful it is. I just thought, okay, well that's what I have. That doesn't seem so bad, because I didn't know any different. And I kind of avoided, I guess as a kid, avoided most of the activities that caused pain.

So, you know, if I had, my big toe was really affected, my right big toe. So whenever I had to flare up, I'd just stop doing things to avoid the pain. So it wasn't, it wasn't sad as a kid. Like being diagnosed with a health problem later is much more heartbreaking than as a child. You just don't, don't know what's going on. That's so true.

We see little kids all the time, like I used to train a lot of surgeons and one of them used to work on children. And he would tell me after doing a procedure on a kid how adults with the same procedure would be in bed for three days, but the kid would get up and play around. Yeah. Maybe because they didn't know that they were, you know, what was going on or didn't perceive it the same. Mm hmm. Didn't know any difference.

When did it actually change for you? When did that transition happen? Where it went from something like it wasn't that big of a deal to something now also and probably felt like a... It was weird. When I was a kid, I didn't want to, I like, when I was first diagnosed, I didn't care if anybody knew. And then when I was in grade five, for some reason it changed.

And I think I became more aware that it was bad. And so then I didn't want anybody to know. And then in grade seven, I decided to care again. And I guess it changed. Oh, you know what happened? My symptoms, I went on serious immune suppressants and they actually got rid of all my symptoms and a percentage of children with arthritis

grow out of it during puberty. So I went on the immune suppressants and I went through puberty and my symptoms went away and the doctors were hopeful that it had disappeared. And then in grade eight, and then in grade 10, I had like an elbow, my elbow started hurting, and I went to the doctor and they're like, oh, it's in your elbow, and they're very casual about it,

but it's like, oh, surprise, it's not gone, you're stuck with it forever. And that's when it got to me psychologically. Because I had, I guess I'd gotten hopeful that it was gone and that it was back and I was old enough to realize that wasn't good. And I also started, so I guess one of the other health problems and the one that's probably, it's hard to say,

but it's probably affected me more was like severe depression, which seems to run in my family to some degree. My dad has it, and my grandpa has it, and my great-grandpa had it. And so that got significantly worse around grade 10 as well. So that probably contributed to the arthritis, psychologically affecting me more. Were there other things going on in your life besides just that that would maybe contribute to that when you look back? Not really, like, I mean, I was a teenager

and I just started drinking and everything and how I just normal through it. Which is normal for me. Heartbreak and all that. So yeah, there were ups and downs, but no, there wasn't anything else. That was just age or something. Now you've had some joint replacements.

Did those happen around that time or were there before? No, so that was 17. So my arthritis, the immune suppressor seemed to be controlling my arthritis. And then I'd have minor flare ups. But then when I was 16, like my hip started getting really stiff. And we went to the doctor. They did an MRI and said, Oh, by the time you're 30, you're gonna need a hip replacement, which was crushing. And then my hip got so bad in the next three months that I needed a hip replacement right then. So when we're not entirely sure what happened, it was like my rheumatoid just had been working

with kids for 25 years, and I was the second kid that needed a joint replacement as a teenager was the second kid that needed a joint replacement as a teenager and the only kid that needed too. So it was like, that was not common and all she did was deal with kids with arthritis. Wow, so you had hip and then what was the other joint? The ankle.

Hip and ankle. Wow, and at this point, this was, did you get the depression before that or was it part of that period? No, so the depression hit around grade four. That's when it started to get bad. And then... Now, what was it like for parents listening if they have a young...

Because I have two kids, I have a 12 year old and eight year old, and an adult is probably better equipped to articulate what's going on. What is that like? How do you express that? How do you express that? How do you express that as a behavior look like? Yeah. So for me, I was angry, like really angry. And I was a really happy kid.

I was watching videos of like family videos that my dad had converted to digital the other day. And I was really, really smiley like up until I was five or six. And then at the same time as we moved, I got tired, sad, weepy, and then by the time it was, so that was about grade one, and then by the time I was in grade four, I was just angry. And my dad had recently figured out that he had depression, so he was more attuned to it. But anger was the main, I think you can kind of tell with kids because, oh, how can you tell?

I used to play with my friends, I guess, and then if they did something really small, I'd get really mad. And it was evident enough that I started to notice things like slamming doors, being angry for no reason. It was anger, I guess. I don't know, it's gonna be hard to tell with a kid. It is. Were yourself aware enough to be like, hey, something's not right.

Yeah. So grade five, it took a while, but grade five, I got into a fight with one of my friends, and I was so mad, and I came inside after that, and I couldn't calm down, and I was like, nothing really happened. Like, it was some ball game. And someone didn't play by like one of the rules or something for like half a minute. And I was so mad and I came inside

and thought, I can't calm down. This is weird. But that was all. But were you getting any treatment at this thing? Because you're on the immunosuppressive drugs and I ran around this time too. Were you on medications for depression as well? No, yeah.

So that's summer, so that was grade five. That summer I went on antidepressants. And like I mentioned this in a different podcast, but my dad got quite a bit of flack for, you probably saw the YouTube video that we did. It was called digesting depression and it was how, well how food has affected us mentally. But you got some flack for that

because you mentioned that I'd been put on antidepressants as a child and I was like, how could you do that to a child? But I was so unhappy. You probably made a difference, I'm assuming. Oh, it did. Oh, it made a huge difference. Like again, I didn't know.

It's hard as a kid to tell, but yeah, the first thing that happened is I got put on them and then I relaxed, like my whole body relaxed and I slept for like two days. And then I was on them. And yeah, I wasn't angry anymore. It was a definite improvement. I don't know how I would have survived through my teenage years without the antitrust presence. It's obviously, I wasn't angry anymore. It was a definite improvement. I don't know how I would have survived

through my teenage years without the antitiprescence. It's obviously, I'm not on them now because I've figured out the food problems, which is significantly better than being on them. But there wasn't an option then. We didn't know about the food thing. I think it feels like it's necessary. Is it like a numb kind of a feeling as far as

like you don't really have as high highs or low lows? Just being on the antidepressants. Yeah, so when I first started figuring out food, I'd have some really severe reactions and I'd go back on the antidepressants for about three weeks just to get through the reaction. And when I went back on them, that's what it felt like. It like cut out the bottom,

but it would dampen down the top. So once I started recovering from the food reaction and started getting the highs again, if I stayed on the antidepressants, it would dampen it down. But when I was a teenager and needed them, I wouldn't be able to get to the highs anyway. So all they did was cut out the bottom hellish area.

Yeah, I do wanna say this. I think it's, people have a tough time understanding because depression, that kind of depression can be quite crippling and medications can, many times, especially SSRIs, which I'm assuming is probably the one that you're on, can make quite a bit of difference to a person. So it's easy to be on, like there's usually two camps with those right? One camp is like oh it's the you know Medicaid everything and then there's the other camp which is

you know you should never put anybody on anything but there's definitely a a role for those things for those medications. So so so you're you do the antidepressants then you're on immunosuppresant drugs you're years old, you do the two joint replacements in the same year? Yeah, so it was May and the November. Which was a really bad year. Yeah, how did you handle that? I was on oxycontin for that year. Who?

Yeah, and which was also necessary because I couldn't walk. Like, it was weird. So September, they told me I was gonna need a hip replacement by the time I was 35. And then I was playing hockey in January and on the court something happened, like my hip just something happens. It's stuck or something. And after that, I needed the replacement. And so by the time like, what happened? Oh yeah, so then January is continuing and I'm starting not to be able to sleep at night. So it wasn't like I couldn't get into a position

where it didn't hurt. So then I'm not sleeping. So my grandpa came to visit and gave me Tylenol III for his back. And so I slept a little bit. And then we went back to sick kids and said, you know, she needs a hip replacement. She needs some pain medication.

And my rheumatologist had had a bad experience putting a kid on narcotics, like an addictive experience. So she was like, well, have you tried aspirin? Like Tylenol. I was like Tylenol? I need a hip replacement. If Tylenol fixed my problem, I wouldn't need a hip replacement. So that was not useful. But I ended up finding a doctor and he was brave enough,

I would say, to give me the medication I needed. And OxyCon was just awful, too. But it's weird. It doesn't really get rid of the pain. It just makes you not care about it. It's strange, but I mean... I've heard people say that before. Yeah, it's weird.

So, you know, I was still horrible. And being OxyContin was horrible, but it was necessary. And the OxyContin was so strong that I needed to take, I ended up taking Ritalin so that I wouldn't pass out from the OxyContin. This is a really bad year. I couldn't go to school. Yeah, this is 17-18, is that where you're at? Yeah, so I'm 17 in this, yeah. So that was bad, but luckily,

like I ended up getting off of it and it wasn't disastrous getting off of it. I think because I had been taking so much for the pain, it was such a horrible experience that I didn't want it anymore at all. So I didn't have any problems with it and it was extremely helpful. It would have been better just to avoid

the whole joint replacement thing in the first place, but the oxy-con was helpful too. Going through all this, what kind of kid are you in high school? And what's your relationship like with friends? Are you social? Are you introverted at school? What's going through school for you? Or what's going through school? I was definitely not introverted. I was extroverted. I had lots of friends. I went to parties. Um, obviously the oxy-container was a little harder to party. You're already partyin'. You're on a constant party there. Yeah.

Yeah, so... I somehow saved up $50,000 for my family. That's really... Yeah, exactly. But, um, no, it was normal. Like, school was normal. I was tired. So one of the other health problems that I guess is on a lower category

than the crippling depression and crippling arthritis was serious fatigue. So around grade 10, like things seem to take a dip in grade 10 for depression, arthritis, and then I started getting some other symptoms, but fatigue was one of them. So I think the only thing that was particularly strange about me in high school is I'd fall asleep during second period, like, at 11-ish, like every day.

Wow. And by the time I was in grade 12, it was so bad that I was just skipping second period and sleeping. So that was probably strange, but other than that, no. Were you still managing a decent GPA or how are your grades? Yeah, yeah, yeah. High school wasn't hard. Oh, wow.

Yeah, that was high school. It's crazy you say that so non-shelon, but to be going through everything you're growing. For me, it was okay. I went to an art school. I don't know if that was easier or not. Yeah, I never had any trouble with school. Obviously, when you're on an oxycon, I had trouble with school. I couldn't think at all. I couldn't remember, just to give an example.

I got my weirdly enough. I got my motorcycle license that year because I couldn't walk and my parents got me a Vespa, which was like a life saver. So I needed to pass the motorcycle exam, and I already had my driver's license, which is just that written test. But for various reasons, I got my M1, which is the first stage of the motorcycle license, and then finished the motorcycle course,

and then didn't hand it in on time. So I needed to redo the M1, and that was after the hair replacement. And I was on so much oxy-gon that the multiple choice questions, I'd read the question, and then read the answers, and by the time I got to D, I couldn't remember the question. It was so bad. Yeah. So, you're doing the immunosuppressive drugs, you've got the joint replacements, the antidepressants, riddle into stay awake, oxycontin for the pain. When does this all start? When do you start to figure things out for yourself or start to, are you trying alternative

things during the whole period of time as well? Well, my mom was always trying alternative things. So, but she was trying everything. And there's so many wrong paths you can do with alternative, I guess, medicine that we went down a number of them, like I wanted to see natural paths. We tried eliminating certain things. Like I went on a no sugar diet, I went on a no dairy diet,

I went on a candida diet, I went on a no dairy diet, I went on a candida diet. We tried like muscle weakness tests, we tried a whole bunch of real wacky things. Any success with any of them? No, nothing. The only thing that did make a difference is, I had a flare in grade two, a really bad one after I started eating clementines.

And we didn't know what was going on. My mom was freaking out. And one of my parents friends said, well, did she start eating anything new? And it was like, oh yeah, I should just ate this box of clementines. So we cut out that. And then from then on, I avoided oranges

because I knew oranges gave me a flair. But we didn't look into any other foods for some reason, mostly because we couldn't find a pattern. We hadn't noticed any difference. Cutting out sugar didn't seem to work. So I started actually experimenting with trying to fix things when I was 22, which is after I went to university, and I gained a bunch of weight in the first couple of years.

And I got significantly worse in every way enough that I was like, I can't, this is bad and I can't keep living like this. So I got super desperate. You felt like you reached a breaking point? Yeah, it was like, I had severe depression. I had these two joint replacements and then I was on medication for arthritis.

And then I started getting, oh, and I was, couldn't stay awake, right? Because by the time I got to university, the fatigue was extremely bad, like 17, 18 hours of sleep a day bad. Holy cow. Yeah, I was just asleep all the time. And then I was itchy. That hit when I was about 14, too, grade 10. So like I was itchy all the time. And then it got to my skin. So I started getting breakouts and like rashes. And I thought, okay, I already have like,

okay, crippling depression, and crippling arthritis. I've seemed to be able to manage so far, but I can't handle like anything look-wise, deteriorating on top of that. I was like, that's too many things. And I'd gained weight. And I was just like,ating on top of that. It was like that's too many things and I'd gained weight and I was just like I can't do that. It was too many things, yeah.

So what did you look at for what did you start doing at first? That started working, I guess. Well, nothing started working. I, oh, the doctor who had given me oxy-contin, I had convinced to give me out-of-all so that I could stay awake. And I ended up going to see a sleep doctor and he confirmed, yeah, she needs some sort of emphetamine in order to stay awake

because she has idiopathic hypersomnia so like another idiopathic thing. Everything's idiopathic. Yeah, which is like, I know, that's what I'm going to you. I'm trying to figure out what it is. How frustrating is that for you seeing specialists that they're specialists, which like, I know, that's what I'm going to you. I'm trying to figure out what it is. How frustrating is that for you seeing specialists that they're specialists, after doctor, after doctor, and feeling like, no one.

Oh, it's awful, because you always get hopeful right. You're like, oh, I've heard really good things about this specialist. He'll know something, and then he just says the same thing that everyone else has said. And it's like telling me, I have like, even the term idiopathic arthritis, it's like, you go to see a doctor because you have idiopathic arthritis, is like you go to see a doctor because you have idiopathic arthritis.

And then they tell you that's what you have. And you're like, that's why I came in. That's the problem here. Did you ever snap? Did you ever come on glued on any of the doctors up because of things like this? No, it was more just like, I just, I don't go anymore.

Yeah. Yeah, so I never snap because most of the time they're trying to help. Are you ever asking yourself, like, what is the depression from, or is it more just you're trying to deal with it? Are you ever trying to like dig into it? Like, is this caused by something? Yeah, all the time.

Okay. I mean, I figured out how to avoid it. So, it's not here anymore, but there's something missing still. not here anymore, but there's something missing still, but being able to avoid it is good enough for now. I've been looking into, like we've looked into vitamin deficiencies, bacterial infections, like fungal infections. There's some sort of genetic component, probably, but there's so many options and all of them seem plausible and none of them are testable.

Right. Well, the vitamin deficiency thing is, but that doesn't seem to be right either. So yeah, we're trying to figure out the root cause, but... Tell me how you're avoiding it right now. I'm only eating meat. Yeah, let's talk about that. So when did you start to figure out things that worked in terms of diet? Like, what did that look like at first?

So I started researching with the Adderall. I was, I managed to stay awake long enough to actually like look, look into some things. And I started researching these skin rashes I was getting. And it took me like a year and a half of Googling the most random things and seeing a whole bunch of horrifying pictures on Google. And I finally found the rash that looked like my rash. And it was a celiac gluten-caused rash. And so I went to the dermatologist I was seeing and I was saying, oh my God, I think that's the problem. And he literally laughed at me.

And I was like, I'm dying here. And you're laughing at me. So I didn't go back to see him. But so I cut out gluten like that day after reading that article because I thought okay So say I have I also did 23 and me and the celiac gene showed up there So I was like okay say this whole thing has been celiac disease you can get arthritis from celiac disease Maybe that's my problem so I cut out gluten completely and

honestly Didn't see much of a difference Honestly, I didn't see much of a difference, but I was still sure that that was part of the problem. So that was May or June, 2015, and then September, my mom brought me to a natural path and she said, try an elimination diet. She gave me this list of foods that was just a random list of foods to eat, and I thought this doesn't make any sense. Why can I eat?

Well, some of it just didn't work for me. Why can I eat oranges? Why can't I eat oranges, but I can eat lemons? I just didn't understand the list. So I cut down to beef, chicken, carrots, broccoli. I was actually eating a wider range than I was still eating rice. That was pretty much it. So it was very cut down. I cut out like soy, sugar, most fruits.

I was still eating apples then too. So I went down to that and in a month, everything went away. Whoa. Like, yeah, a month. What do you mean, everything? No, not everything. Okay.

But the arthritis was gone. So I had stopped taking, before that, I had stopped taking my immune suppressants because I wasn't convinced they were working anyway. And I wanted to be able to monitor flare-ups when I had cut out gluten, just to see. So you wanted to go off of them so that you could identify what's working and what's not working. That's an important point to make, because when people are trying to figure things out for themselves, many times people, you know, they'll have so many factors and it's hard to control which one. Best thing you can do is eliminate all of them and then introduce one at a time, which

is what you did with the immunosuppressive. Yeah, yeah, so I cut those out, but I had, I actually, it was, it's more co-inted dental because I cut them out in January and I didn't cut out gluten until May, that's when I figured it out. So I cut out, well no, I cut one of the immune suppressants out in January and I didn't cut out gluten until May, that's when I figured it out. So I cut out, well no, I cut one of the immune suppressants out in January because I didn't think it was working. Then I cut the other one out in May.

But yeah, September, I went on this diet and at this point, I was still taking antidepressants, I was still taking birth control, I was still taking out-of-all, I was still taking gravel so I could sleep from the Adderall. So I still on a whole bunch of medication. And I think part of the reason I had a fairly easy time in the first month cutting out all those foods was because of the Adderall, which is an appetized, serious, appetized suppressant.

So I didn't have a cravings or anything. So it wasn't that, and I was very focused. So it wasn't that hard cutting out all the foods. But yeah, a month went by and my skin healed. I went down like two pants sizes. I guess I should say at this point too, I had already lost some weight from university because I moved back home and I started eating better. I mean, university, I was literally surviving off of instant noodles and parogies. Oh, yeah. That freshman 15 minutes. Oh, man, it was so bad. It happened to me.

Yeah. And it wasn't a freshman 15. I went from like, I'd had surgery in high school, so I was pretty skinny, so I was like 120. I went from like 120 to 138 in two years. And I was like, what is happening? Is this the, and my parents were like, just stop drinking.

And I was like, you know what? Drinking actually makes me feel awake. And I don't think that's the problem. Although I was drinking a lot of beer, which was part of the problem. Because I'm gluten in it. Yeah, but it was mostly the instant noodles and parogies. And cheese, that's pretty much what I ate.

It was terrible. So I moved back home and started eating more chicken and broccoli and just naturally lost some weight. But then yeah, I cut out gluten, it didn't do much. Then I went on down to elimination diet and I shrunk a lot more than the weight. Like I think I lost five pounds, but I went down like overall like four pants. It's crazy. Yeah. It was all water and inflammation. Yeah, it was crazy. So no, so your joint pain went away? Yeah, so that was a month and um, what did you, I mean, you must have, that must have tripped you out. So, no, so your joint pain went away? Yeah, so that was a month and... I mean, you must have tripped you out.

Like, having to deal with that for so long and then all of a sudden it being gone, that must have been crazy. Oh man, oh yeah, psychologically it messed me up for a while. But, yeah, the arthritis went away in September and the arthritis wasn't that bad. Like, I guess my shoulders hurt when I slept, but I wasn't crippled from it.

So the joint pain went away and I was like, okay, that's good. Like the fact that my skin healed, I was probably happier about that. Being honest at that age, right? That's true. It's your thinking. Yeah, yeah. And then, so that was September.

And then I reintroduced almonds so that I could have like that easy source of protein. It's like almond butter is healthy. And I had a terrible response to almonds and my skin flared up again. Uh, I got arthritis. Uh, I was still taking the out of all. So I still had the fatigue and the depression at that point. That didn't lift until December.

November, mid November, I started feeling better emotionally. And for the type of depression I have, whatever it is, it gets worse in the winter. And we thought that was sun-related. I'm a little bit more convinced that it's because you eat so many sweets around December that it gets really bad could be But mid November I started feeling like I'd never felt before like Like I used to see people walk down the street smiling for no reason and be like there's something wrong with those people and

You just couldn't connect with it. Well, I was just like nobody's smiling for no reason Mm-hmm And by the end of November I was smiling for no reason. I was like what's smiling for no reason. And by the end of November, I was smiling for no reason. I was like, what's happening? So I tapered down the antidepressants, and I was off them. And I was like, this is, I tried tapering them down before because for various reasons,

and it had never gone well. I had always needed them, but I didn't need them. Were you getting symptoms of, to, what, I mean, when you were tapering down, were you noticing like symptoms of taking too much, like in other words, I know when people are on antidepressants, they'll know they're on too much by getting, there's like weird side effects that people will get, right?

Were you starting to get side effects? Or were you just like, hey, I'm already feeling better? Let me just try taking these out. Yeah, it wasn't so much the side effects as I was happy. Yeah, they should be having to take less, right? Well, no, before that, like I got happy on them, that's right. Having to take less, right? Well, no, before that. Like, I got happy on them, and I'd never been happy on them.

So, I got happy and was like, well, if I'm happy, maybe I don't need as much. So, I hadn't, I wasn't really experiencing, yeah, you get like finger, weird finger things, just uncomfortable feeling. No, I just felt better, so I stopped taking them. And now, this hasn't happened in quite a while, but when I was experimenting with what foods were okay and I'd have these terrible reactions and start taking them again, when I could feel the reaction wearing off, I would get the side effects.

Okay. And the uncomfortable feeling thing, and know that I needed to stop. But at that point, that didn't happen. And then in December, I reintroduced soy because I had been craving soy for quite a while. That was one of my favorite foods, soy sauce on happen. And then in December, I reintroduced soy because I had been craving soy for quite a while. That was one of my favorite foods, soy sauce on everything. And I made like a feast of different forms of soy because at that point I thought, it just went overboard all in.

Yeah, well I thought, well what if I can't eat soy again? I'm just gonna eat as much as I can now, just like, get it all out of the way. Yeah, yeah, which now I know is a really, really bad idea, but I didn't know that then. So I had the worst, like the worst experience I've had, probably since I needed an ankle replacement, reintroducing soy, because I wasn't on any medication anymore.

I wasn't on any antidepressants, and I got more depressed than I've ever been. It was so awful. Was it overnight? Yeah, it was overnight. So I did that last month. A month. Yeah, just under a month.

Were you aware, like, okay, it's the soy, avoid everything? Well, yes, logically. So I got, so that night I had a whole bunch of soy and then my digestion was just fucked. And I was like, oh, well, that's not helpful. And then about four hours later, I got fucked. And I was like, oh, well, that's not helpful. And then about four hours later, I got itchy everywhere. I was like, okay, well, that's not good,

but then my itch came back. So that's some sort of reaction. And then the next morning, I got into the shower and I just balled for no reason. And I was like, oh no, this is bad. And then, man, it's hard to believe, but two days later, so by the next evening I was messed up,

and then the evening after that, I hallucinated some sort of demon face. Like, you know when you're a kid and you're in the dark and you're looking at shadows and you see faces that are scary, it was like that happened, but it wasn't quite dark enough. And I was like, okay, so my brother had driven me home and I had turned around to wave by and he'd had this sort of like demon face-ish type of thing.

And I was like, okay. I went upstairs, smoked a bunch of weed, and like hid under my covers. Yeah, yeah, after that. Well, I was like, this is bad because I was starting to get super panicky. So I was like, I just saw something. I know it's not real. I'm supposed to do what I would have done. Yeah.

I'm seeing things more really, I just saw demon. I need some weed. Yeah. Oh no, it helped. It helped. But I hit under my blankets. I was like, this is bad. And I was like, okay, logically speaking,

I was absolutely fine two days ago. And then I had the soy. And then I had digestive troubles. Then I got itchy. And, I was absolutely fine two days ago, and then I had the soy, and then I had digestive troubles, then I got itchy, and then I was depressed. It was like this has to be, the depression lifted for the first time ever, because I cut out food, so this has to be a food reaction. But when you're that messed up with those reactions,

you're just like, oh no, maybe I was just, like, convincing myself that all my problems were gone, and now they're back and I'm such a fool. So there was that too, but I was like, I'll just wait it out. So I just pretty much smoked weed for a month and waited for it to end. That was before I realized I could just take antidepressants

for a couple of weeks and like lift it a little bit, but I was like, no, I'm never taking any medication again. So, but then it then it lifted. And I was like, no, I'm never taking any medication again. But then it lifted. And I was like, okay, so yeah, so is not good. I ended up getting soyed a couple more times that year because I didn't realize that even in my newt amounts, I'll have that reaction. So it was like, I had salad dressing, like a vinaigrette, turns out one of the oils and one of those crappy vinaigrette dressings is soybean oil.

So I had a reaction. It wasn't as bad, but it was bad from that and then You know, so I was like, okay, so that's so much smaller quantity still does it And then at another point I introduced some sort of multivitamin that had soy in it and I had the same reaction I was like, okay, I can't have any it can't be like you can't touch soy people don't realize that by the way Supplements many times will have you know times, will have, you know, like soy lecitan or, you know, gluten as a binder, even in supplements many times. And if you have a, if you're hyper reactive to foods,

then even just doing that, I noticed the same thing with myself, well, my health had a bad turn about maybe eight or nine years ago. The smallest amount of the food that bothered me would cause a reaction. And what I've noticed working with people in these situations is you almost, there's the logical stuff that's happening in front of you. You're like, objectively, you're like, okay, I can't eat this food. But then there's a psychological piece. I was like, well, if I have a little bit, well, if I try it a little bit more,

and it's like, you gotta learn a lesson over and over again before you're like, okay, I'm done. I know, it has to hit you. Like, man, I must have hit it in like nine times of just that year was rough. It wasn't rough because I knew it could go away, but man, I reintroduced so many foods that did that. It was like everything I tried to eat, did that.

Nothing was as bad as the soy, probably because of quantity. I made like, it was good meal. I made like homemade miso soup which, and I bought the miso. She was like, it was worth it. It was like, it was worth it. Miso can be mixed with gluten,

so I like went out and bought stuff so that it wasn't mixed with gluten, so I knew exactly what's happening and I had Adamami beans and tofu. I had like every form of soy. Oh shit, you went crazy. Yeah. That's one way to test it.

Oh god, yeah, I did not recommend that. So after this, this period of time, now you're figuring out little by little, what foods you have reactions to and what foods you don't have reactions to. And what have you identified that you, so you said you just eat meat. Yeah. So you have a reaction to everything but meat. And what have you identified that you said you just eat meat?

So you have a reaction to everything but meat. Okay, so that was December 2015, which is also at the point. Well, so I got better right around December. I like remember December 13th I tried soy. It was really bad. But before that I told dad, I was like, I'm better. Like something changed and I'm, and you need to do this because you have the same depression as I do.

Now, this is a great question because your dad is a clinical psychologist. And in Western medicine, because I've dealt with dermatologist, rheumatoid doctors, I've dealt with psychologists and psychiatrists, and I'll have clients who will go to their doctors even a dermatologist which you think would be obvious and they'll say to them, hey listen when I eat like this my skin gets worse and they'll they'll laugh at them or they'll deny it or say well you know do what you want but it's not going to make that big of a difference or it's not gonna make any difference at all. So your dad is trained in obviously western psychology

and most of the literature, maybe now you'll find some, but even five years ago, it would say food had no effect whatsoever on your mental or emotional well-being. It just doesn't at all. Or the proof isn't there yet. Yeah, was that tough? Talking to your dad, was he like, what would he say to you about this?

Um, the change in me was so drastic that there wasn't anything he could say. He could see it, he could tell. Well, yeah, my fatigue also lifted around December. So my depression went away in November and then my fatigue around December. I think I went off out of all in December. So my depression went away in November and then my fatigue around December. I think I went off out of all in December. So I went from literally like being half dead and sleeping all the time with horrible skin problems to better and often all my medication. So for the first time ever, and I don't have like these aren't problems that just magically go away. So there wasn't really much he could say. So this works for me and he, like, these aren't problems that just magically go away. So, there wasn't really much, he could say it.

So, this works for me and he was like, yeah, it did. And I was like, you have to try it, but you have to be really careful and you can't mess up. So, when I first told him to try it, it was before I had experienced a soy thing, so I didn't realize that once you introduce a food back in, the reaction can be, like, way worse than you've experienced before. So when I had told him to do it, I thought it was fairly simple choice because it was like, oh, now I'm better.

But I didn't realize that once you cut it out, if you mess up, you're not better at all. So he went off at that December. I'm sure that that'll come up later in the conversation. So, you're doing this with your diet, you're noticing all your symptoms are gone. Now, as you said, you just eat meat or how do you get milk? Oh, yeah, how did that come about? So, by December 2016, once I'd been like fooling around with food for a while, I'd kind of made a list of foods I could tolerate,

and it was like, it was the list of 24 foods, some spices, sweet potatoes, parsnips, broccoli, carrots, most green vegetables, meat, fish. That was pretty much it, but it was a list. Oh yeah, apples, pears, and peaches. So I could handle all those and I was like December 2016 and November 2016. I was at like a 10 out of 10 Mood wise health wise like everything was fantastic. I could tolerate all those And then I got pregnant and Then something changed so it turns out this like my I guess what I think happened and you can see in scientific literature as your microbiome gets less diverse when you're pregnant, and that's just what happens. Your microbiome ends up less diverse through subsequent pregnancies.

So I think my best guess is I lost something that allowed me to tolerate those few vegetables. So once I had baby, I kept having something was still wrong. And I could tell I was a little bit arthritic. I was getting these randomly itchy. And I wasn't happy. And I was like, what's happening now? And then, man, one day I typed into Google on a frustration allergic to everything because I thought I know I can eat meat and nothing happens. I don't know about the vegetables that I used to be able to eat, but I know meat is okay. But aren't I going to die if I just eat meat? So I hadn't done it. And so I typed in allergic to everything, and then this woman who had been treating her Lyme disease with an all-meat diet

popped up, and it said, you know, she'd been eating ribeye for 15 years and she was still alive and she was fine. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do that then. I'm done like, if it affects my mood, having a little bit of joint pain, I can handle itching things, but anything that affects my mood is out. So you switched to that and you noticed? So I switched to that and that was December. And I noticed like it wasn't this big of change is when I cut out everything, but I did my mood improved and my arthritis went away again. And I never got like I'm still not at the 10 out of 10.

I was before the pregnancy, but I'm good. Good. Are you familiar with leaky gut syndrome and intestinal hyperperpermeability or whatever? Yeah, so when you, we've had the luxury of being able to talk to experts on these particular topics, and this is something that interests me tremendously because I experienced it myself, like literally at a nowhere, my body just rebelled on me and I couldn't keep weight on and all of a sudden I couldn't eat anything, all the foods I could eat before.

And so I became quite passionate about learning about this and what I noticed through this process was that the list of foods that I could eat became shorter and shorter and shorter. And what I've learned about leaky guts gut syndrome is when you have inflammation in the gut that's present even in small amounts, that causes the gut to become hyperpermeable. And whatever you eat a lot of, then can become something that your body recognizes as a foreign invader and can develop antibody towards. So you know, initially I just, I determined it was dairy, gluten, and egg whites were the big ones for me.

So I avoided those like crazy, but then I would eat a lot of these other foods and I'm the kind of person that, if I like something, I just, I just eat the hell out of it. And it's probably because of my fitness background, right? So it's like, oh, chicken breast here and you know, same types of foods. And then I noticed that, oh oh now I can eat soy that much

or now it starches that I can't eat that much. And what seems to happen, and this is the profiling theory from what I've heard, is that I never, I don't really get the gut inflammation to go down completely. And so when the guts inflame, the junctions between the cells get spaced out a little bit, particles get through that into the bloodstream,

recognizes it for an invader. So whatever I'm eating a lot of at the moment then becomes something that I become intolerant to. And so what I had to do and what I've done now is I've gone back so far to where I was like perfect, get the inflammation down completely and then slowly start to work things back in. And it seems to have worked, but there's a couple of other things that I've done that

I was going to ask you. I don't know if you've implemented a couple of these things. You mentioned smoking weed, and we laughed about that. We're a big proponents of cannabis. But cannabinoids, certain cannabinoids I did find had a very positive effect on me in terms of getting my immune system to relax a little bit. Did you notice anything like that with yourself? Have you tried using cannabis in that particular way? No, not exactly. So I haven't... Usually I've had these food reactions, and then once they're over, I'm back to being perfectly okay again. So I've had these food reactions and then once they're over I'm back to being perfectly okay again

So I've used weed throughout that mostly for mood Just like the anxiety levels are just unbearable So if you smoke enough weed and it's not a comfortable not a weed but it'll lower that and for some reason that it also does seem to help with like overall nerve and body pain that I get as well. So I've used it that way. I haven't used any of the like components, I guess. There's what's the pain killing one? Well, so there's lots of cannabinoids, but cannabidiol is the non-psychoactive cannabinoids.

And now all the cannabinoids have anti-inflammatory and immunomodulating effects. So it's important to say that they're immunomodulating and not immunosuppressive because immunomodulating means if you have a depressed immune system like you have HIV or you have cancer, it can actually strengthen your immune system to where your body starts to kill more of the cancer cells or your body doesn't, right? If you have an overactive immune system like people with, you know, Crohn's disease or

rheumatism or other forms of autoimmune, it seems to tamp it down a little bit. So that's what I've experienced and what I do is I use cannabidiol. I do use some THC because I know it's a little bit of it makes it affect also, but I use Canada dial I use a lot less of it now, but I used to use it Regularly and I noticed if I use it consistently it would make a difference now I'm now I'm lucky that I live in California and it's been medically legal for a while now Now it's recreationally legal so I can actually go and get products that are You know high quality like you know high like high CBD, edible or high CBD cannabis.

And I like it because I don't want to be high all day, but I do want the anti-inflammatory. What are the laws like, you're up in Toronto, right? Is it available there too, where you can go into a dispenser, or is it still difficult? It's not difficult, you can go into a dispenser and get it. It's not being legalized until the summer, I believe,

but you can get it. So I haven't tried that for, I don't know, I guess I just haven't gotten to it. I tried a whole bunch of things the first year to try and I figured if it was an immune response, maybe it can take something that'll at least dampen it down if it's like a histamine response. So I tried like anti-histamines, I tried.

Like, Benadryl and all that. Yeah, so I tried to sit here as Dean, because Benadryl makes me sleepy. But I tried anti-histamines, they didn't seem to do anything. I tried different minerals and vitamins and high doses of random things. Nothing seemed to do anything. Activated charcoal, if I eat something wrong,

and then I immediately drink a whole bunch of activated charcoal, I think that helps. It calms my digestive system down. Infrared soning helps get rid of whatever's in me. That helps because I have a mood boost as soon as I get out for about four hours longer if I'm feeling good, but it's shorter if I'm not feeling good.

I haven't got around to CBD, but I have suggested dad use it for like four, well, because there's some nerve pain associated with it. I know a good dispenser nearby, I'll point you in the direction. Yeah, okay. What about fasting? That's the second one.

Have you played around with fasting at all? So I tried fasting in university, because I think dad actually was looking into fasting for, I don't remember if it was mood or arthritis, but I tried fasting and I was so messed up that it didn't do much. I got like dizzy. I didn't really see any benefits.

I haven't done it now because, well, part of the, I've looked into fasting a bit and I can't tell if it's actually the fasting that's good or if it's that you coincidentally cut out everything that's not good for you. It's probably both. Yeah. Yeah. So, I haven't done fasting either.

So, with fasting, so I've just started implementing a 72 hour fast every month because the best literature we have right now, by the way, this isn't conclusive by any means, but shows that when you fast, you get a lot of program cell deaths, so cells that are older kill themselves. Stem cells get stimulated, then you refeed, and those stem cells get turned into now, new cells to replace the old ones.

And so they've done this with animals, with they've shown that they could replace an immune system on a cat with like a three day fast. So I'm like, holy shit. Oh, that's interesting. If my immune system is hyperactive, then maybe fasting would be a good idea because I'll be able to kill off the ones that are dysfunctional

and replace them with the new ones. I've only done it now for two months and tremendous results. But I do wanna be clear too, on the podcast, if you're listening, like the individual variance with all the stuff is tremendous, and by no means, and maybe you can echo what I'm saying, are we recommending people go off medications without

a physician? Yeah, I just wrote, I actually wrote an article because someone was saying, what do I do if I'm on a whole bunch of medication? And I actually, yeah, what I think is you're going to feel better regardless of the medication. Like cutting out these foods, the medication isn't going to stop you from feeling better. So I think it's safer, especially with like antidepressants and things. It's safer to stay on the medication.

Cut out, cut out things, see how you feel first. At least my experience was I was still taking Adderall. I was still taking antidepressants and I got better anyways and then I dropped them. And that's like, there's no point in being miserable and depressed and having all these weird food symptoms and food cravings and then trying to figure it out then. So now you're off everything?

Yeah, so I haven't been on anything since, well, for at least a year, more two years. How different is, because you were on these medications, how long were you on antipressants for since, since what age? So since I was 12. so since you're 12 10 11 years 11 years so how different is Is life now off of all these things is it is it weird? Is it totally different for you? My brain was so fuzzy. I think I don't think it was necessarily the medication I think it was more the diet, but my brain was so fuzzy, especially from like 17 to 22, that I honestly can't really remember.

It was like September when I went on that elimination diet, and I was still eating some things that bothered me, but only a couple of them. I remember that month, and I don't really remember anything before that. It's like scary. I went through through a memory box that I had and I couldn't remember things like hockey games I had gone to. Apparently I've seen Calgary Flames and I don't remember that at all and that was grade 11. That's something I should remember. So yeah, so how do I feel different? Well, I've never felt like this before I've never been able to like have a conversation and remember what I was trying to say at the beginning I got so I had serious brain fog where I'd have this idea and then I'd be having a conversation I'd be desperately trying to remember what my point was

So that's gone. I can remember lyrics. I could never remember lyrics and I can remember lyrics to songs That I knew as a teenager. So those songs that I couldn't remember then I know now So it's like the memories were there and I couldn't have I couldn't get to them So it I mean, it's a huge difference. There's no comparison I used to spend a lot of time even when I was driving trying to focus on staying awake This was before the outer-of-all, and I was driving and just falling asleep all the time. And to the point of day, it was not good.

I was like, this is bad. I need to start taking medication or I'm gonna die. This is not good. And that's gone. So it's completely, it's completely different. I don't know how to explain it. Do you have like a, like your sense of life is like, because you had that experience

and now everything's so different, are you like, okay, anything's possible now? I mean, do you look at it all as like, a gift in the sense that you know how, I guess, blessed you are now to be healthy versus how you felt for so long before. Does it change the perspective in that way? Yeah.

Okay, so one thing that happened, when my depression lifted and when I figured out all the stuff was food related is, every time I went outside and saw people, I could see who was really affected by it. And that kind of messed me up psychologically. Like, even taking the subway, you see people and they're like,

they're passed out, they're falling asleep, they're seriously overweight, they're like, they're passed out, they're falling asleep, they're seriously overweight, they're like, their faces are kind of swollen and it's not their fault per se. Like there are some people like that, and they work out all the time. It's like, they're still eating so many things wrong that they can't get out of that.

So that messed me up for a while. So I didn't take the subway for a while because I was looking around and being, yeah, I mean, like this is horrifying. And, you know, they're going to the doctor and the doctor's being like, well, why don't you work out more, right? Like, stopping so lazy.

And it's like, that's not the problem. That got to me. You write blogs and stuff about this now. Yeah. Okay, so thinking about it as like a blessing or a curse, well, it's hard. Once I start feeling better, it's like I instantly forget what it's like to be sick.

And it's scary. So my arthritis will go away, the depression's gone, I don't have any physical symptoms. I mean, fortunately, unfortunately, my ankle replacement is still a pain, so that kind of reminds me. But I basically feel completely normal, and I'm like, well, I don't have to deal with that anymore.

You got to feel like in a sense, you got to still, the reason why I think what you're certain for a cell, why she's not, you just got to feel like she's still in the fight. You got to feel like you're kind of in the fight, right? Yeah. Yeah, well, it's not like reflecting like, oh, that was the old me. It's like, this is still you, and they could go back there if you make any bat Right, so it's gotta be it's gotta be a total different feeling than somebody who probably feels blessed that they went through this This you got to probably feel more like on guard if anything I would oh I am on guard that well

I'm down to meet I'm on guard like I'm and I saw some things are scary like the effect that gluten has on me is It's like a which worse than the soy, right? And minor quantities, and it's like, I'll be depressed for a month, I'll be arthritic, I'll be in pain, I won't be able to sleep, which is weird that it goes back to being, not being able to sleep instead of having too much sleep. But anyway, yeah, I'm kind of terrified all the time. I don't eat out at restaurants anymore. My life's changed completely, but there's no comparison

What's it like for you having a father who who can relate in a sense because he battles with depression? Do you guys get a chance to kind of confide in each other or does it make it more difficult like well getting him to Like convincing him It kind of sounds like a conspiracy theory, right? If you're on the outside. So being like, you know, he'd go on this diet and he cut out, he did like 99%. And he cut out like everything, but occasionally he'd, some one of his friends would pass him something to eat and he'd feel rude, right? So he'd eat it.

And he would do that, you know, every three weeks, which the reaction is a little bit longer than that, so couldn't get out of it. So what happened with him? It's been good to have someone to confide in, but it's been hard to convince him that this is the issue. There's no, like, he thinks that now. He knows that this food thing is an issue. He knows that in my new quantities, he can get really sick, and he gets really messed up too. Did you guys kind of battle a little bit at that?

It's like you're figuring things out and then you still see him kind of struggling and you feel like you can help him out a little bit. Did you guys battle it all with that? There wasn't much of a battle. I felt bad because I had introduced this new diet to him and then his depression seemed to almost worse than when he messed up.

And he wasn't, I don't know exactly how to explain it, he wasn't being careful enough not to mess up because the amount of careful you have to be is like, if you go out to eat and then you don't feel good a couple of days later, it could have been that meal, right, even if you can't see anything on it and he was like, I mean, the thing is, he had a whole bunch of physical symptoms, right?

He also, a whole bunch of weight. The thing is he had a whole bunch of physical symptoms, right? He, like, he lost a whole bunch of weight. He had some psoriasis. He had gum problems. He had girds. That all went away. So all his physical symptoms went away, but the depression, which is the worst one,

like it almost got worse. So that wasn't good. I mean, now it's under control, but for the first year, it was rough. So it wasn't as much of a team as a me feeling bad for trying to make him better and accidentally making him worse, psychologically. So that was bad.

But then once I kind of got across the point, like you can't really eat out, you have to be so paranoid, it's ridiculous about things touching your food. Once he kind of like got that, he had a couple of really, really bad reactions. Once he got that down, now it's been fine. What's this got it? What's this like for your mom to have a daughter struggling with this and a husband struggling with this?

Well, she was always on the... She's got to be super bored. Weird food train. Oh, okay. So like when we were a kid, and I mean, it's chains, like when we were a kid, it was we only ate that bread that's like whole wheat and covered in seeds and things.

Ezekiel? Oh, just just anything that was really dark and gross. And I was like, where's the white bread at? Where's the iron kids? Yeah, anyway, so she was always doing, turned out that wasn't healthy anyway, but she was always doing the healthy thing. And then she found out about 15 years ago

that she was, she thought she was allergic to wheat. It turns out she's got the celiac gene too. But she, she got out wheat and she didn't recognize that it was a gluten issue. So I explained that it was a gluten issue once I figured it out, but she'd already cut out wheat for 15 years. So this hasn't weirded her out at all. She does the cooking for dad because he's too busy.

Like it takes time to be able to, although eating only made his pretty quickly, pretty quick and pretty convenient, but he's not just eating all meat. He's eating the first diet that I had made that worked for me initially. It's like green veggies meet a few. No fruit. He doesn't do sweet potatoes anymore either, so like no carbs basically, but green vegetables. The way I looked at it for myself was, and maybe this just me making myself feel better about it

because it's very difficult to go through. My symptoms were not nearly as extreme or as long as lasting as yours, but I had some pretty difficult ones that lasted for a while. The way I viewed it after a while was, here I am, I have this very outward, clear sign that something is off. Everybody else, or most people, may not have as clear of an expression, but a lot of people when you look around are kind of feeling crappy, not great sleep, hormones a little bit off. Of course, obesity is a very clear one because you could see it, some skin issues.

I almost felt like, you know what, maybe I was better off because I had such a loud signal that I was able to identify these things, whereas you got these people kind of walking around in this, you know, mild zombified state, not knowing that, you know, food is, and it's much more common these days. Have you had a lot of people reach out to you saying,

wow, you know, I've had similar stuff happen to me and I fix it with food. Have you been getting a lot of feedback like that? Yeah, I've been getting lots of people reaching out. I mean, I've heard a lot of really sad stories where it's people with, you know, they say, well, they tell me what happened to them. And a lot of these are like autoimmune disorders and things that just wrecked people and a lot of these people are older too. Like, I guess one of the things I feel lucky about is,

like a couple of things led me, allowed me to figure out if it was food, and one of them was the doctor that gave me medication. If he hadn't prescribed me aterol, and I wasn't on a weirdly high dose of aterol because otherwise I would pass out from being tired. If he hadn't prescribed me that, I wouldn't have been able to stay awake enough

to do the research to figure out gluten might have been an issue. It's a great attitude to have on that. Yeah, so like that was lucky. I also, I guess, feel lucky because this art depression and this horrible depression that runs in our family does run in our family. It's there's some genetic component

regardless of whether or not it's diet and the chance of me passing that on, I think is fairly high, especially considering it's gone, like great grandfather, grandfather, dad, me. My brother doesn't have it, but it seems to be pretty strongly genetic. So now I know that if anybody else in my family has this,

it's not lifelong antidepressants, crippling depression. It's food sensitivities. As much as we know now, I'm sure there's an underlying cause, maybe it's bacterial or something, but at least I know that I can get rid of it. So I'm lucky like, we've had this for what? For generations at least, we don't even know what happened before my great-grandpa, because he was adopted. So I don't think that family was very put together either,

but at least I know that it's done. We're done with this. We're done with autoimmune problem. We're done with the depression. So that is really good. You have to solve it. Yeah. To the family.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. You're incredibly strong. I mean, this is the lot to go through and you seem so strong and confident and successful in spite of all these different things. Where does that come from? Maybe it's from, I guess it's from a number of things.

One is probably getting hit with it when I was really young. Probably wasn't as psychologically damaging as getting hit with it when I was a bit older. So I was more used to it. When I was diagnosed with depression, it wasn't like, oh my God, I'm messed up. It was, I don't know, I don't feel so good and now I'm taking a pill and I feel pretty okay. But that was literally as simple as it was. And same with the arthritis initially.

So, that, there's also like, what's the option? The option is, you're either really sick and you die. I mean, you just like, you let it take over or you don't. And I wasn't going to. I was going to put up a fight before I decided just to let it take over. A lot of people choose the first one though. A lot of people choose to give up or to act out and project. I mean, the fact that you kind of internalized it like that and sought out to solve it versus continue to feel sorry for myself, I think is even when

you brought up and you just kind of grazed over that with high school being popular and having friends and being, quote, unquote, normal, I mean, that's a big fucking deal, the fact that you could even be normal in such an abnormal state. I mean, that says a lot about your character. And it's just interesting. Do you have a, do you confide in friends a lot? Would you see you have more, more, are you closer to your family? Do you get to get, do you get to talk to people about this before? Obviously now. I guess I should add one of the things that probably helped was when I was

first diagnosed with arthritis, my dad made it really clear not to use it as an excuse. So he said, you know, you, because it's easy to use your problems as an excuse. And it's really hard to tell when you actually need a day or if you're just being like a week. So I guess I was constantly thinking, you know, am I so tired that I need to stay home or am I, or am I just using it as an excuse? And I think looking back, I probably could have using it as an excuse? And I think looking back, I probably could have used it as an excuse a lot more than I did, but it was good to know that. So I think that probably-

How was that communicated to you? Just like that. I don't use your illness. Make sure you don't use your illness as an excuse or things will go much worse than they could go. Oh wow. And you obviously trusted him by telling you that because he's dealt with depression himself.

You have obviously a lot of respect for your father so it was well received. Yeah, well, I'm pretty sure he told me that in grade two. Oh, shit. Yeah, so because at that point that was like, oh, I don't want to go to school. I'm tired, right? Or I don't want to just go to school for all these reasons.

But like, what, you either stay home and you feel like that or you go to school and you feel like that. Uh, it was well received, yeah. It was, it was, that was a good thing to say. Now how is the, you have a baby six month old. Um, how are you going to handle nutrition now for your family and for your, your child? Okay, so my husband actually, um, when we first started dating, I was just figuring this out. He had some serious issues that he wasn't aware of. He was kind of like, what do I want to say?

He was walking around zombie because he was with it. But he had some issues and I was like, are you okay? Something is wrong here. And it turns out he was really depressed and hadn't recognized it as depression. He was like, oh no, this is just what life is. This is just how everyone feels. Like, not everyone feels that horrible all the time. So it turns out he's got the same, he gets the same horrible reactions to food.

And it was like, that's great. Or we're a great match here. But he's not on an all-meat diet. He can tolerate, he can tolerate pretty much what the initial diet was for me. So what are we doing with food? So she just started introducing solids. I've introduced obviously beef and chicken and sweet potatoes and parsnips.

She's never gonna eat gluten. I think that's bad for everybody. Dairy's out, sugar's out. I don't know, she's gonna hate me when she's teenager. Like, I disagree. What is this? That's candy, that's the... I think we train, I think we train their palate

at that early of an age that I don't even think it'll be that missed, you know? Oh yeah, well there's no, like I'm not doing it. So, that stuff's out. I'm trying to figure out, I don't know, I guess I'm hoping we can just play it by ear. I'm going to introduce things that I think are really safe because I don't know how much of this is genetic and I don't know how much of it is just previous damage. I'm hoping a lot of it is damaged, but it's hard to tell. So I'm going to keep it pretty limited and just monitor. Obviously, introduce more vegetables. So far, things seem fine.

But like it's hard to trial. I tried to give her probiotics. She can give babies probiotics and I can't tolerate probiotics for whatever reason. They give me a flare up, which they're not supposed to do. And I can't eat like any of them. So I tried to give her probiotics and she didn't tolerate them well. She had a stomach ache.

It's happened twice now and she never gets stomach aches otherwise. So I don't know if that's because, you know, babies inherit a lot of their mom's microbiomes. So now she just hasn't messed up microbiome or I don't know. It's so complex. There's so many variables. It's new. It's all new emerging science. It's very, very difficult to pinpoint anything. It's so complex. We're starting to understand a little bit of it, not even maybe a fraction of it, in terms of the microbiome. I mean, we know some bacteria are good, some are bad, and then everything in the middle. They've done fecal transplants with humans and animals that seem to cure people, which is kind of crazy.

Humans and animals that seem to cure people, which is kind of crazy. So it's just this weird, it's this weird area of science. You know, I wanted to ask you because you're talking about feeling like you're depression getting better as a result of changing your diet. That can be a very touchy subject. In fact, I'm very careful when we talk about that on the show because when I talk about how diet can help with skin and people don't seem to have that big of an issue. But when you say, oh, it can help with mental and emotional issues or psychiatric issues,

boy, that's like a third rail man. Have you been getting any pushback or anybody angry that's messaging you from this? My husband's parents won't recognize me as like who their son is married to. What? Yeah. So yes, there's been some pushback. They think your story's bullshit. They think that I'm going around convincing people and it's some sort of cult.

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's really nasty. So there's been some pushback. But to be fair, I guess, before I started this diet, I think what happens is, you have a conversation with someone who doesn't have depression and they go, oh, well, just stop eating crap and you'll feel better. Which is, this is your fault

and what you're doing wrong is causing you to be miserable. And that's not a good way to introduce it. Like, I think for me, even if I had improved my diet, it wouldn't have gone rid of the depression. I had to cut out everything that was causing it, even in my new amounts. So I think if maybe if it's not introduced as, it's a your fault type of thing and more as,

how strange is this Who would have believed this Try it for a month and see what happens type of thing, but yeah, there is definitely pushback again mental mental problems, but I think it's because people are blamed for it So I think I agree I think when you're suffering from something yourself and You've tried everything that you know within your own information that you know.

And then you see someone else and they're like, well, I got better just by, and they're like, screw you, man, I've tried everything and I feel terrible. It's not my fault. I can totally understand that. But in the context of an immune reaction, I think it's clear, I have to make this clear to the audience, like, you can definitely lower your calories, monitor your macronutrients, your proteins, fats in your carbs,

and you can lose weight and people can feel better and healthier as a result of that. But if you have any a strong immune reaction, which when you have an immune reaction, what's happening is you're causing a cascade of events that triggers inflammation of some sort. And inflammation can be very systemic. So you can get localized inflammation like I bang my hand and then I get swelling where

I bang it, or I can get the systemic reaction which can affect any part of my body. It can affect my eyes. It can affect my teeth. It can affect any part of my body, it can affect my eyes, it can affect my teeth, it can affect my bowels, it can affect my brain, which is where the depression comes from. And they're finding now that quite conclusively that there is, they don't know which is first or whatever, but they do know that there is some sort of inflammation present in most, that causes or can be a part of depression in a lot of people. So there's definitely a strong correlation or connection there. And systemic inflammation happens when you have

an immune reaction to food. And it's very different. It's very different from just reducing calories and changing your macronutrients to get in shape. If it's an immune reaction, that's, you gotta think of it like an allergy, like someone who gets anaphylactic shock. You know, like I have a nephew who is allergic to several foods

and you know, peanuts being one of them. And if he has the tiniest amount of peanuts, like a speck or if it just touches his food, he would need an epi-shop because he would go into anaphylactic shock. Well, it's not that different when you have, but it can be other symptoms like yours. And so you have to avoid them completely,

and if you don't, and that's I think what makes it difficult is people avoid them for the most part. And they're like, well, it didn't work for me. Not realizing. Yeah, yeah, I've tried, like I've tried getting friends off of gluten and it's like, like, I've tried getting friends off of gluten and it's like, oh, I've cut it all out,

but I still drink beer. And I was like, well, it's just not gonna work. You have to get rid of it completely. Although I have met a couple of people who didn't seem to affect as much, mostly people who have had absolutely no mental health issues, I still think it's a terrible idea and you shouldn't be doing it,

but it doesn't seem to affect them like, you know, you get covered in a rash and then you're arthritic and hallucinating demons type of thing. Right. So moving forward, are you, I know you have a blog, you talk about this on social media a little bit.

Is this an area now where you wanna to help others or spread the word or is it just, you just enjoy writing about it? No, I don't particularly enjoy writing about it. It's just, like I said, I'll feel better and then I'll forget and then I'll have one of these reactions and I'll be like, oh my god, this is, you know, 1% of how awful I used to feel and I've forgotten and then it makes me feel terrible to just have been that ill and not tell people what happened. Because I mean, I've talked a lot to people

and they're in chronic pain, like chronic, like nerve pain or, you know, and have an autoimmune disorder and are depressed and are overweight and they try and exercise and they try and wake up every day and they try and eat healthy and they're just dying and It's not I don't think it's fair From I don't think it's fair for me to not say what happened to me What advice do you give to those that are listening that

Are on a path maybe not as chronic as yours, but any sort of path and they can't put their finger on it What it is what would what kind of advice would you give to somebody who feels like they've been trying to figure this out and struggling a lot? I guess depending on how sick you are, there's the audio immune disease and that's pretty sick and then there's some serious mental problems that are pretty sick and then there's just being overweight but being pretty happy or just being kind of tired depending on what level you're on Yeah, look into diet and cut out you like I would say get rid of sugar, dairy, soy, and gluten for like minimum right get rid of all of it for a solid month and then Introduce one back in and see how you feel Like even if it's something you don't believe, if you get rid of those things and then you go out for a donut

and see what happens, I think people will be able to make up their own mind. Once you get, once it's so plain, so my girlfriend's going through this right now, right? So for Lent, she gave up chocolate, which is her favorite thing in the whole world, like in the whole world. Like in the whole world. Like it's a big deal for her, right?

So she gave up chocolate and right around her, typically right around her period, she'll break out a little bit and it's like really stresses around. She gets really angry because we're both fitness and health fanatics. So she's like, I'm really healthy. Like what the hell? What's frustrating? Yeah, like why am I getting... And skin things are freaking frustrating.

Well, it's displayed for everybody to see. So so she's like what the hell is going on here So she cut chocolate out and all of a sudden her skin is like super clear And so we're sitting there talking about it, and I'm like, you know honey I'm like I wonder if it's the the chocolate that might be the issue and she's just like no no no no Can't be can't be the chocolate. I don't think it's a chocolate. I'm, she's like, I'm always eating chocolate. I'm like, well, yeah. And, you know, how food intolerance has developed, like maybe you developed intolerance with over time and it took her like five days for her and she would even get angry.

She was even getting angry. We were talking about it. So I had to lay off because I know with that feeling, I know what it's like to be like, fuck, my favorite food. I can't eat it anymore, or whatever. Take that from me now. But she finally, it's like, you know what? I think it might be, I think it might be the chocolate.

And so you have to, I think your advice is great because until you do that, you don't want to believe it. Like you literally don't want to believe it because we're so attached to the foods that we, especially the ones we eat all the time. You know, I did want to make a comment about genetics. You said you're, you know, there's a genetic component. Of course there is, but I don't remember who said this and I'm quoting somebody, but

the genes are load the gun and your lifestyle is what pulls the trigger. So it's like you've got the predisposition for things to happen and everybody has their own you know genetic makeup and likelihood of you know being reactive to particular things or whatever but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen you have to also you know there's an environment factor as well and now we know about epigenetics too where tons of factors don't you guys believe that I mean, if we know now that the brain and the stomach are inversely connected and we know how how the brain predicts. We're directly connected. Yeah, directly connected, right? So would you, I mean, I would venture to think too, that even

where your mind spaces when you consume some of these foods that could potentially affect the way it expresses it also. So I don't think it's so direct as likely. We've been talking about this actually more recently. Obviously the gut, we know, has a very strong connection to the brain now. We know that in the gut is where you produce the majority of your neurotransmitters. So when we talk about like taking antidepressants,

what antidepressants aim to do, but the most popular ones at least, like Prozac, try to do is they increase the amount of circulating serotonin in the brain. Well most of that serotonin, most of the serotonin in your body is produced in your gut. So that's a very clear one, but there's lots of these other things that we're starting to discover in terms of the gut, you know, brain connection. And one of them, which is very fascinating now, and this, by the way, I'm going to give

the credit to your dad because I've been watching some of his videos and he talks about the evolution of things that we've done in culture and why they stick around for so long because there's something about them that is useful. And one of those things is prayer and in particular, prayer before food eating. And so I had this experience relatively recently,

we had a guest on the show who didn't follow any particular religion, but you know, you could call himself maybe spiritual, and we all had a meal together, and when we served him as food, he like, looked like he was meditating before he ate, or did something, either praying or meditating or something. And then he ate his food,

and I asked him afterwards, I said, were you praying, like I don't know you were religious, and he goes, no, he goes, I just asked the food if it wanted to be a part of my body, and I asked my body for one of the food, and I did this whole thing, and I thought, know you were religious and he goes, no, he goes, I just asked the food if it wanted to be a part of my body and asked my body for one of the food and that this whole thing. And I thought, oh, that's kind of weird. And then I thought to myself, like, wait a minute,

like he's just becoming really aware of what he's about to do. Like I wonder how many people would not eat a pop tart if they did that before they ate the pop tart. You know what I mean? Like right before you eat the donut, if you stopped and asked yourself, you might be a holy pop tart. Yeah, you'd probably make a better choice.

And then more recently, I don't remember who we were talking to, but we were, I think it was Ben Pekolsky. And he was talking about how, you know, parasympathetic. Yeah, you're, digesting is parasympathetic in the sense that you have the two autonomic systems or parts of the autonomic system. One is sympathetic, which is fight or flight Characteristics of energy wakefulness. You know higher cortisol Higher, you know inflammation, but it gets you moving or whatever This is what you want in the morning. You want to be sympathetic when you wake up And then there's parasympathetic which is rest and digest and he said man if you're if you're eating really fast on the go and

Not allowing your body to go a parasympathetic, that can cause issues as well. And then I thought about that, like holy shit, absolutely. And this may be why things like prayer have been present for so long before food. Of course, they're using it in a spiritual sense, but it lasted because maybe it helps people, it puts you in that state where you're like, okay, now I'm gonna eat everything, calm down, let's digest this food properly, or whatever, let's be more aware of what we're eating.

So, that's why I believe it's fascinating. That's why I believe it's more than just a macro nutrient, or micro nutrient for us, that there is an element or a piece of even where your mental space is currently at when that happens too. I think that's another variable. Oh, come on. I mean, raise your hand if you get super nervous

and you feel butterflies or something stomach. I mean, you obviously feel it, right? So there's definitely that connection. So, I don't know. Yeah, that's a good theory, the prayer and digestion thing. Fascinating, right? That's a good theory, yeah. I haven't noticed, like for me,

I haven't noticed anything like that that affects me well, as much as what I eat. But all those things, that me, I haven't noticed anything like that that affects me as much as what I eat. But all those things, that's, I like that theory. Yeah, right? Fascinating. You're gonna go down this similar path. You're gonna start noticing all these things that connect to your food and digestion and just goes, it gets so deep and we're so connected to our food. I mean, cultures have been designed around food.

So there's obviously tremendous importance around what we eat and it's much more than we think. And in Western societies, we've disconnected from our bodies so much so that we don't even know what makes us feel good and what makes us feel bad until we eliminate everything. And then slowly pay attention and reintroduce it. So probably because these foods are introduced to such a young age. How are you supposed to know you're not supposed to eat gluten if you've been eating it

since you were six or seven months old? Oh, yeah, exactly. And you've now trained the palate to crave it too on top of that. So you don't only issue not eating, you probably are in love with it because you've been eating it your whole life. So do you incorporate, you obviously look very fit.

I'm sure part of that's your nutrition, but do you also incorporate exercise? How has that helped you or hurt you or have you obviously look very fit. I'm sure part of that's your nutrition, but do you also incorporate exercise? How has that helped you or hurt you or have you noticed anything from that? Honestly, so my ankle right now, because of the replacement, it's kind of in bad shape. So I haven't been able to do much. And then if I end up working out, I develop muscle fairly quickly. So then I end up with a weirdly strong upper body and a weirdly weak lower body, which is not a good look on a girl. So I've just been like until my ankle is figured out, I've just been avoiding it.

When I was in university and I was gaining weight, I used to go to the gym quite often and I put on muscle fairly well then too, but I mean, it hasn't made as much of a difference as changing what I eat. It has, yeah, no. So no, I know you guys do a whole bunch on exercise, which I would be into if I didn't have an ankle replacement. One thing you said earlier about like epigenetics, how you can have, you know, tight, you can have bad genetics, depending on the genetic problem, obviously, but you can have, you know, tight, you can have bad genetics, depending on the genetic problem, obviously, but you can have something that can be changed. I think if I had gone back to two

or whenever we introduced foods, I don't think I would have any problems. So just for people listening with autoimmune, like for kids and things, they haven't really noticed much of a genetic predisposition to autoimmunity. I guess with ankle-osin-spondylitis, there's a bit and with celiac disease, but with things like arthritis, there's not much of a genetic componentisposition to auto-immunity, I guess, with ancholosing spondylitis, there's a bit

and with celiac disease, but with things like arthritis, there's not much of a genetic component they can find. I think if you can figure it out with your diet, you don't really have to worry about that much. As much children-wise, I'm not concerned about my kid that way. They're finding now, like, what the mother eats and experiences even in you to all, then, will affect the baby as well.

So yeah. Kind of scary, but yeah. Scary, but. It's controllable. But yeah, control. If you know. Exactly, exactly, if you know. So, well, I want to thank you for coming on.

Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, very compelling story. Like I said, when I first heard it, I was like, wow, this is, you know, this is a story people need to hear. You're very, the way you explain it, the way you talk about it, very brave, very nonchalant, but it must have been incredibly challenging, so I appreciate you coming on and sharing that with everybody. Appreciate it. Thank you.

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