Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 745: How to Improve Focus, Sleep & Meditation with Brain.fm CEO Dan Clark

Episode Date: April 9, 2018

Of all the products that Sal, Adam & Justin use, brain.fm (get it at www.brain.fm/mindpump for 20% off) is the one they use daily, whether it is when they go sleep, need to focus on a project or are unwinding with a quick meditation. In this episode they interview brain.fm CEO Dan Clark who talks abut the exciting research and treatment possibilities that are on brain.fm's horizon. This is a legit product that works. Give it try for free at www.brain.fm/mindpump. This is going to be huge! How he wanted to contribute to society and the story of how he found Brain.fm (8:10) Neuro phase locking. The science behind the difference between binaural beats and Brain.fm (9:45) Headphones are able to control the sounds. The great debate, do headphones vs. a speaker work better? (16:03) Music is designed to enhance what your brain is doing.  The science of how the brain is always searching for distraction. (18:54) Brain.fm is a consumer product first, but also a plus one product. How this could be a step before prescribing medication and the Government grants they just got approved. (23:10) Training your brain to zone in. Can the brain become adapted to their sounds? (27:25) People get it differently. The variance across the board of how their products help people. (30:15) Focus on getting their products stable. What are they focused on and does marketing play a big part into their business? (37:24) Help change the world through music. Their price point and how much they charge. (38:40) Make music designed to get you in the zone. Their aim to create music that makes each workout you have, the best one. (39:35) **Disclaimer** - Our whole culture has communicated through sound. What they have in the pipeline and the cutting edge new research they are working on. (47:50) Related Links/Products Mentioned: Science behind Brain.fm Maturation of the adolescent brain The Digital Revolution and Adolescent Brain Evolution STTR Phase I: Remediating Inattention via Algorithmically Generated Music The psychological functions of music listening The power of music Can "brain music" help Olympic wrestlers? White noise and sleep induction Current issues around the pharmacotherapy of ADHD in children and adults Featured Guest/People Mentioned: Brain.fm Kyle Kingsbury (@kingsbu)  Instagram Tom Brady (@tombrady)  Instagram Michael Phelps (@m_phelps00)  Instagram Would you like to be coached by Sal, Adam & Justin? You can get 30 days of virtual coaching from them for FREE at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Get our newest program, MAPS HIIT, an expertly programmed and phased High Intensity Interval Training program designed to maximize fat burn and improve conditioning. Get it at www.mindpumpmedia.com! Get MAPS Prime, MAPS Anywhere, MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, MAPS Aesthetic, the Butt Builder Blueprint, the Sexy Athlete Mod AND KB4A (The MAPS Super Bundle) packaged together at a substantial DISCOUNT at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Make EVERY workout better with MAPS Prime, the only pre-workout you need… it is now available at mindpumpmedia.com Also check out Thrive Market! Thrive Market makes purchasing organic, non-GMO affordable. With prices up to 50% off retail, Thrive Market blows away most conventional, non-organic foods. PLUS, they offer a NO RISK way to get started which includes: 1. One FREE month’s membership 2. $20 Off your first three purchases of $49 or more (That’s $60 off total!) 3. Free shipping on orders of $49 or more You insure your car but do you insure YOU? If you don’t, and you are the primary breadwinner, you will likely leave your loved ones facing hardship and struggle if you die (harsh reality). Perhaps you think life insurance is expensive, but if you are fit and healthy, you can qualify for approved rates that are truly inexpensive and affordable. To find out if you qualify for the best rates in the industry, go get a quote at www.HealthIQ.com/mindpump Have Sal, Adam & Justin personally train you via video instruction on our YouTube channel, Mind Pump TV. Be sure to Subscribe for updates. Get your Kimera Koffee at www.kimerakoffee.com, code "mindpump" for 10% off! Get Organifi, certified organic greens, protein, probiotics, etc at www.organifi.com Use the code “mindpump” for 20% off. Go to foursigmatic.com/mindpump and use the discount code “mindpump” for 15% off of your first order of health & energy boosting mushroom products. Add to the incredible brain enhancing effect of Kimera Koffee with www.brain.fm/mindpump 10 Free sessions! Music for the brain for incredible focus, sleep and naps! Also includes 20% if you purchase! Please subscribe, rate and review this show! Each week our favorite reviewers are announced on the show and sent Mind Pump T-shirts! Have questions for Mind Pump? Each Monday on Instagram (@mindpumpmedia) look for the QUAH post and input your question there. (Sal, Adam & Justin will answer as many questions as they can)

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Did you know that years ago when movies started getting popular in movie theaters, they had Smellow Vision? Right. At one point, you know that. What a terrible idea. Did you know that? Smellow Vision? Yeah, so what they would do is they put these little things

on your chairs that would squirt out and spray. Yeah, it's like a spray. Yeah, so you're watching a movie and then they're going through like a jungle or something. And you'd be like, oh, I could smell it. Or, oh, that smells like bubble gum. They did all these experimental things with movies because they were so new and so cool.

You know what I mean? I know. I know. I know it's so annoying. There was another I mean? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I forget, it wasn't Star Wars, but it was one of like a big epic movie. And the whole time it was like,

ring, I was like all over the place, dude. I don't even like 3D. Yeah, I even think 3D, just like that. It's pretty nice too much. What they need to do with Avatar, what I want them to do with 3D is I want a goggles instead of glasses, because it's really annoying to me that I'm in. You can see the outside.

Yes, I'm 3D here, but then on the outside I have, I don't like that at all. So I think goggles and then a screen that comes further around. So you really feel inside of it. You want to hear my idea? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I mean, I know somebody's going to rip this off and do it way before me anyway, so might as well put it there. You might as well just be the first one.

I'll be the first to say it. Okay. I was going to, like, if I was to develop a movie, just like you kind of got glimpses of it in Avatar where you put three dimensions, but it basically puts you into the, not the foreground, but the background, and it like gave you more depth.

So you remember that one scene where they're kind of floating and you see like people like in the distance and you see little drops kind of coming down. Like you can see a lot further. Okay. Okay, so think about that. So you have kind of an adjacent story happening in the background, but only if you concentrate on it.

So you could see depth wise. Well, ready player ones kind of like that, dude. Two movies within a movie. Yeah. Ready player ones kind of like that. Pretty much. You like that's movies within a movie. Yeah ready player ones kind of like that pretty much You like that's a little Silver no I'm saying if you that would make you want to go see it again because you could see how like things were

We're so happy you know the best movies are like that though We're like you know what movies are like that fight club was like that. We're the Easter eggs Yeah, that's what it's been done on different levels. I'm talking about the matrix perspective. Like so if you do foreground and background, you fuck with that. Ready play one was like that. It is. You're watching it and I know I missed five different. That's why I could watch it again.

Okay, because there I like even the opening scene was so, I mean, as soon as the movie started, I looked to where I could you know, I'm like, oh, this is going to be great. Yeah. Like I was right away, because you know, right away, this without as the movie started, I looked at you and I'm like, oh, this is gonna be great. Like I was right away, because you know, right away, without ruining the movie, right? The opening scene, I'm like, it's 2045.

I'm like, this could be what 2045 looks like. Holy fuck. They did a good job with that. Very good job. Actually, they did a good job of showing what a dystopian future, but also you still, the characters are still endearing

and you still kind of like it. So although it's like, I hate to live in this world, it's also like, well, that's kind of cool. I mean, I could see this actually happening. It's hard to balance on that line, right? Yeah, of either one. They did a phenomenal job. They did a great job. Why can't we just see it now?

You need to go see it. They still my idea, so we can open the top line. Speaking of breakthrough technology, because that's what they show in that movie so much, brain FM. Yeah, we got them here. Oh man. That's of all the product stuff that we've been introduced to, you know, through Mind Pump,

that's the one that I think all of us use consists. More than anything else. Consistently. More than any supplement I take, more than any drink I use, more than any coffee could be close. Could be close use more than any well coffee could close could be close Yeah, we do competitive. We do drink a lot of coffee and focus. It's like boom boom But you can get almost coffee anywhere right? Well the science behind it is crazy and what they're doing

What's in the horizon for them? Which we which we hear in this episode We talked to Dan Clark who's the the CEO of the company and What they have on the horizon with Brain FM, and they're, I guess, patented the way they do their sounds and stuff. It's exciting. It's actually, did he talk about, can I talk about? Yeah, the government grants.

Did he say that on the show? Yeah, he talks about it. I know it's not happened yet, right? No, no, but there's a lot of, there's some research going into how to use some of their focused sounds to treat ADD and kids, which is super exciting. Oh my God, to have alternatives to that

instead of meditating all the time. Dude, the medication rate among children with ADD medications is exploding. Well, he talks about the success right in here too blows my mind oh it's staggering I know I feel it like if I put on Focus within and I've tested this many times where I'm like okay I need to write a blog or something like I am not in the mood I am not focused There's no way I put on the headphones and about five to ten minutes into it. I find myself Kind of enthralled in what I'm doing.

It legit works. I mean, there's not a lot of things like supplements, things out there that get me excited. This is one of those, it just, it works. Like I use it time and time again. It's like, it so surprises me how effective it is. Yeah, it's one of the products too that when I turn somebody on to it, it's not whether or not it works

or doesn't work for you. It's the level of what it works to. It's like, yeah, yeah, try it out. That was really cool. You know, it's not whether or not it works or doesn't work for you. It's the level of what it works to. It's like, yeah. Yeah, I tried it out. That was really cool. It helped me sleep or, oh, it helped me meditate cool. Or it's like, how easy it occasionally? Holy shit.

That was a game. For me, it was like a holy shit. Because it was the same. Yeah, that was such a game changer for me. I mean, we use it every time we travel. Especially when I'm away. I don't sleep as well and other people's beds or hotels or things like that than my own.

And so it's a must that I travel with that. The sleep one for me was the one that I used the most at first, but then focus became, like I use focus a lot. And I can only imagine if I had to, because our job doesn't require, like I'm not sitting in front of a computer screen all day long. And I mean, and it's easy for me to pay attention because we're having conversation.

I could only imagine if I had to sit down on a computer screen and do like dedicated work all day long and how beneficial this, you know, the focus song is. It's easy when I'm on a computer. Yeah, yeah. I find the opposite. So I'm like, I started with focus. And now I'm like totally into the meditate.

Really? Yeah, it's been helping me a lot. How do you use the meditators? put it on and so I put it on. And a lot of times I'll do it on my walks with my dog. I'll take you out. Yeah. Well anyway, we talked to Dan Clark who's the CEO of Brain.fm and we do have a hookup for you

through MindPump. So if you go to Brain.fm-flw-mindpump, you get 20% off and then it's $7 a month, which I think the price will be going up soon. And you get five free sessions, so you can kind of try it out and see if, I mean, if we're lying. See, if it doesn't blow you away, then you don't have to, I guess you were just canceled. I mean, I mean, we don't, right? But like, try it out for yourself. I have yet to have anybody try it and not really like it. I mean, it's legit. Also, this month, what have we got going on this month? Oh, we're giving away the no BS six-pack formula.

This is a workout specifically designed for your core. Normally, I think it's $57, but we're giving it away for free if you enroll in any maps bundle including our super bundle which is our one year of exercise programming Program it's a bunch of maps programs strung together So if you have any questions on any of our maps programs or if you're interested in the bundle and the promotion With the free no BS six pack formula just go to my pump media calm without any further ado, here we are interviewing Dan Clark,

the CEO of Brain FM. Dan, so how long have you been running things over there at Brain FM? You're new. I have new. So I've been there for about seven months running things, but I've been in the company since 2016 for two years now. Oh, what were you doing before?

So I was ahead of engineering actually. Oh, okay. So give the long story short is I was actually working digital advertising, build an advertising agency in Boston, boutique, and decided that I wasn't really contributing to humanity and started looking at different options and BrainFM came actually up in an early newsletter email, right, one of their earlier blasts,

and I tried it, and I was like, whoa. This is gonna be huge. Which one did you choose? How was it focused? Your first focus, yeah, I know. So I started playing with it, and to be completely honest, we're always fighting against people with

binaural beats and people that claim things. And the reason why I tried this company was because of the science. And that was the aha moment. This is gonna, this is gonna be huge. And so I remember I actually called them and I said, hey, I want to work for you guys. And they're like, no, we're good. And 12 times later, following up, following up, and I said, no, we can help. I ended up bringing on working for free for a little bit

and moving up to head of engineering. And then the XEO ended up moving on and I said, I can do it, and I jumped in and we've been rocking ever since. You mentioned binereal beats, and that's the biggest confusion I get whenever I mention Brain FM. I've used Binyorill beats.

I've also used Brain FM. Very different. Both in the sound. So you guys actually play songs and stuff and it's kind of, and the effects are clear when I use Brain FM. Like a very, very clear. In fact, we traveled quite a bit. Last month alone, we traveled to Los Angeles and Tampa. And on the plane, I usually use the meditate or the nap,

you know, songs that you have. And it's legit. I mean, it really works. I don't like flying. I'm not a big, I tend to be an anxious individual. There was one trip that we did. Where was it when we were on that little propeller plane that was just, yeah, it was back.

Okay, it was no joke, the most, I've never experienced that much turbulence in my life. It was totally a roller coaster. You know, people are praying, you know, next to you and people are throwing up and I'm already not a big fan of flying. What saved my ass was the meditation, you know, brain FM. I had that in my headphones, closed my eyes and it kept me from wanting to jump out of the airplane, but it's really effective. What's the big difference between,

like how do I explain the difference between by neural beats and brain.fm? Because I always have trouble telling people like the difference between the two. Yeah, brain.fm. Because I always have trouble telling people like the difference between the two. Yeah, so that's a really good question. So bineural beats is kind of leftover pop-sci where it became really popular and it was this thing that was gonna revolutionize the world and everyone was really into it.

And later, even the person that kind of started the papers went back and was like, well, maybe there's not the same amount of evidence there, right? The difference is we don't use binaural beats. We use something called neural phase locking. And, you know, if you want to probably look for more information, there's on brain FM slash science, we go into it in detail. But but basically we use music differently. So we're using our AI, and that's why we have it, to re-sequence the music, to change the phase variations, to change the different kinds of sounds, to just have your brain

lock onto it, and then by entrainment, and through that neural phase locking, it rises to that level that we're trying to train. Oh, so I don't know if you can share this, but... Sure. ...but it sounds almost like you have test subjects measuring brain waves, and we know brain wave patterns strongly correlate to states of mind. So we can put stuff on someone's head, measure their brain waves and say pretty accurately, this person's meditating, this person's taking an app, this person's sleeping, this person's focused based on those brain waves. So it sounds like you hook people up, you have AI which is measuring their brain and as the music's going and it finds something positive, it does more of that, something negative,

it does less of that and it builds out sounds as it goes along or something like that. Close, so the AI we use is actually, we know the mental state we're trying to achieve. We know the oscillations, we know how the brain has to behave through all the scientific research. And then the AI is more of a composer. So it's the thing that our composers work with in tandem.

And that's why we have just not, you know, crazy sounds. We have actual really good sounding music, which sounds something you'd listen to once Spotify. Right. Describe that to how many composers do you have in the company and how does that work? Like do they have a musical background and what is that? Yeah, so a lot of, we have three full-time composers right now. Some of them are award-winning video game composers, so they make music for video games.

We actually just hired a composer who's helping us with some of the music we'll talk about in a second, the workout music, but we'll get on to that in a second. Oh, yeah. We're playing with that right now. But yeah, there's kind of a dichotomy between the music people and the AI. So the composers know what they want to make, and it's a very iterative process. It's not just, hey, this is a song, let's feed it through it.

They work together, so the AI has the you know, this is the top level, this is the bottom level. And it's been refined. You know, when Adam, who's the founder of the company, he started this 16 years ago, it took six months to reach the level that you feel when you use our focus product, and he was able to refine that. And he actually built a previous business that license software out to different companies. So we have some of the other competitors of stuff. They use it and it works, but it's not as effective. And he saw them doing it.

And he's like, no, we can make something better. And he sat down and three years later, that's where BrainFM came from. And that's why we have the science behind it, but also you can feel it in 10 minutes. And that's our whole claim. Give us 15 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes, try focus, you're gonna feel the effects of it.

And that's why we're so confident in saying that. Now, were you guys able to patent that whole process? Or is it, yeah, that's their secret sauce. So we have a very large patent on the process, and then we have a bunch of other patents, as well as a bunch of patents pending on the processes behind it. So.

You took the words out of my mouth, because I'm like, wow, this gets out, it's everyone's gonna wanna do it. Because you're right, 10 minutes, because I'll put focus on in my ears. There's one song in particular that I saved that's got like piano in the background, so my favorite one.

And you're right, it takes about, if I put it on and I'm kind of tired and spacey, it takes about five to ten minutes and then all of a sudden I feel motivated is not the right word. I guess focused is the right word, but it's kind of different. I don't feel speedy, but I do feel very singular in my, so if I'm trying to write a blog or write an article or figure something out with one of my, so if I'm trying to write a blog or write an article or figure something out with one of our programs, if I'm listening to that,

I find myself very determined and, again, focused, but it does take about five or ten minutes to kick in. Now, I do have a question about, I've wanted to ask this for so long, you guys recommend putting on headphones, listening through headphones. All of us have experienced similar effects on speakers without having it on headphones.

Is it work that way too, or are we just tripping? No, that's a great question. Yeah, so it does work on speakers, right? We always recommend headphones though, because it's a lot easier to control the sounds. So what happens, especially with focus, is there's a lot of vibrations going on, right? There's a lot of different frequencies, it's a better word. And when you're in a room that doesn't have great speakers, or even just your laptop speakers, it can bounce off things. It's not really created for that. We are actually

rolling out and creating products for speakers. So sleep effectively, I can't sleep in headphones. I've tried every single headphone for it. And I travel just as much as you guys, especially now. And I can sleep on a plane because you can't fall over on your side. So we're working with different speaker companies to produce specific sleep music for it. I use it in my bows almost. Yeah, Adam's the biggest one. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the sleep component of it.

I mean, I use the focus, but I use sleep more than anything else because I was already rough sleeper. I have a hard time settling down. And that's just because I have bad habits of being on my laptop or being on my phone all the way to the last minute that it's hard for my brain to set all the way down and then fall asleep. So when I don't do, and I have like a little protocol of my lights going down and turning my phone

and stiff off, that if I do that, I can get a really good night's rest. If I don't, then brain FM has always been my go-to. And we've actually got to a point where my girl loves it too, where I originally was putting it in my headphones and then sleeping with it, but we started playing it with my Bose portable speaker and it just pointed right at us, right by our headboard and we both just get it.

I was curious with that, though, playing it over the speakers like about the regulations with like FCC and like what, like is there any kind of restrictions with that as far as like music or something like that that influences your mind? Sure. So before we go into that, I just want to highlight real quick for the sleep. You know, it works really great on the Bose because that's a high quality speaker, right? And it is different than Focus because sleep is slow wave.

There's a lot more longer sounds. So even if it bounces off like places in a room, your brain can decipher that. But for focus because it's moving so fast and if it bounces like off something weird or it's not as close it down it changes it. Yeah, it's not as it as good. You know, it's kind of like, I'm just trying it. Like some things will still work, but not as to 100%. And when you're trying to focus, you want the best you can, so that's why we always say headphones first.

Got it. Yeah. As far as the, you know, playing in a space and things like that, you know, not- It sounds like a sci-fi movie, right? Like I'm in a shopping mall, and they're playing sounds. They're like, we're going to put them in. I just imagine like you played over at school, and everybody's on focus, and they're forcing all this kind of stuff. Yeah. gonna put them at you like you played over at school and everybody's on focus or something.

Like, of course, yeah. Well, haven't they already figured that out with grocery stores? I mean, awesome. I mean, awesome. The music they play in grocery stores is already been there. But they're not measuring brain waves. I think it's a little bit different, right?

So, you know, this kind of goes into the pop side too, as far as like sublimal messaging. And things like that. Right, you can make, the way the music is designed is to enhance what your brain is doing. Right? So it's, again, that neural phase locking. And if it doesn't phase lock, then it's just like regular music. So you can play music of, I don't know, cars screeching in gunshots and things like that.

And it can make people really frustrated, you know, but because we're, it's not designed to make someone frustrated, you know, it doesn't it can only enhance your brain because your brain's always listening and trying to Protect itself. So it's not mind control. No, there's no mind You know, it's really interesting because I ordered like five years of brain FM after listening first one. Yeah, what's going on here weird? You know, it's it's really interesting. So I'm not weird. No, it's really interesting. So one of the things that I love about working here is we're on the bleeding edge of this audio neuroscience.

And one of the things that we've learned, or specifically myself, is that your brain is always listening. So if you're sleeping, and I say your name, you're gonna wake up, right? Why? Because back, you know, hundreds of thousands of years ago, it's built for listening to danger. There's a lot of people, especially people listening, if you listen, if you're going to sleep and it's raining

outside or the thunderstorms, you sleep better usually. Reason is, because predators don't hunt in thunderstorms. So just evolutionary, you're building into this thing. I'll tell you something right now, as a father, 100%. Let me tell you something. I could sleep through anything. But if I hear a noise that sounds suspect or for my kids, some choking noise in the home, man. This actually happened to me once.

I was at home and I had a patio set outside in the backyard. So I'm on the second store. So this is downstairs out in the patio. And I had an umbrella coming out of it and it was really windy and it knocked the umbrella over and shattered the glass in the table. So it sounded like someone broke through my rear sliding glass window.

I woke up or I should say, I became conscious of being awake, already when I was halfway down the stairs with the sheets torn off the bed following me, with this rage like that. I did protect my family. I would have run through whatever was in front of me, and I wasn't even aware that it was awake. So what you're saying is any parent knows exactly

what that's like. That's actually, it's funny. That's how our focus music is designed. So the reason why it blocks out distractions is because of all these different things that we're doing with the music, because your brain is always listening for distractions. And it's really not distractions,

because back again 100,000 years ago, it was alert, right? But now you get a ping on your phone and your wife texts you, right now it's a distraction, but you get a ping on your phone and you know, your life texts you. Right now it's a distraction, but back then the ping on the phone was, I have to protect your alerts. So we live in a different kind of world today and that's why the music is so effective. Yeah, the literally the opposite of being aware and alert of your surroundings is being extremely focused.

If for anybody who's ever been hyper focused on a particular task, you lose sense of time, you lose sense of space, you don't know what's going on around you. And you're, I mean, in nature, it's probably not a good idea to do that, but in a situation where you're trying to accomplish something, it's actually a pretty blissful, awesome feeling.

I mean, I absolutely love it. In fact, I know, and I was funny, I had a doctor tell me I have adult ADD a long time ago, which I think is hilarious. But, you know, as when she told me this, I did a bunch of research and found that people with ADD and ADHD also have the ability to hyper focus. So not only do they're distracted, but they have the ability to you know hyper focus. Have you guys worked with your sounds on helping people with other, you know, condition other than the average person just want to get more focus relax, but have you done stuff with like insomniacs or depression or, you know, anything like that? So a few different things, right? So actually we want to grant from the government from National Science Foundation

that is basically all funded to help us prove that we can compete with different ADHD medications. That's crazy. That's a big deal. That's massive. So, insulin. So how does that process work?

Do you have to send them studies and apply? And then they say, okay, this looks promising. We're gonna give you guys X amount of dollars. So there's different phases of the grant. We have phase one, but that's exactly. So here's the papers, here's the stuff that we think, we have a theory, right? Here's all the data that we have collected.

Help us prove the theory's theory, right? Here's all the data that we have collected. Help us prove the theory is correct, right? And the whole National Science Foundation is basically helped to help improve science. And this is one of the leading edges of science. So we did when the next phase is another additional funding for grant, but it also sets us up for RX classification. So right now-

For description. Yeah. Yeah. So right now we're going through FDA approvals and we're getting that all set and we're like looking through that. But, you know, brain FM is a consumer product. It's been built for consumer product, but it's a plus one product. So if you have ADHD, it can help you.

But if you want to use it as a tool to get in the zone, even if you don't have it, it's still gonna help everyone. And we realized that some people may need even more than the consumer grade product that we have. So that's why we're going through this. So in five to 10 years from now, you could be in the doctor,

and your doctor could say, here's the medications you can take that are drugs, or you can listen to this music that's gonna have the same exact effects of it. Well, it is now as this public knowledge yet does do people know this that you guys are working on this? I'm not sure if we've actually like went out and screamed from the rooftops yet. I asked because I just I mean I sooner or later big pharma is gonna come slashing your tires. I mean, I sooner or later, Big Pharma is gonna come slashing your tires.

You're not just like, you're like, you're fucking with Big Pharma. And there are money and stuff like that. I can't imagine you're gonna get a lot of lobbying against you guys. So I guess to address that real quick, is it's, I'm not here claiming that we're gonna replace things. Right? I'm saying that this could be a step before.

War in combination of. Well, it's just like marijuana. Marijuana was gonna replace all the drugs out there in combination of. Oh, it's just like marijuana. Marijuana was a great, great, great, great place. All the drugs out there, but we are seeing that it's helping some people that were on medication also, so. Yeah, so that's just for focus

what we're just talking about, and that's kind of our spearhead into it. But we do have the, also the intentions of doing anxiety and of doing, like, which we call it it, sleep and different kinds of insomnia. We have a Love Letters channel on our internal communications

and we get thousands of Love Letters every single month, right? And a lot of it has to come with people at PTSD and insomnia and they're like, hey, I haven't slept well through the night for 20 years, you know? And then they come to us and they're like, I finally got a good sleep. I finally slept well through the night. There was one time where our service went down.

And we have a lot of people that use our service. We went down for one night for like six hours. And there was one of those times when the cloud know, the cloud went down, you know, we're much more sophisticated now. But we had like 20,000 emails saying, hey, I don't care what it costs. I can't sleep right now. I want to sleep working.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, not that we ever wanted that to happen, but that was proof. And that's one of the reasons why I get up every single day because, you know, and that's why I'm here. I want to share this.

Like, I came part of this company because I wanted to help humanity, and that's like reflective in our pricing and things like that. But we think we have something, and we have a responsibility to share this with people. I agree with you 100%. I do have a question on the long-term efficacy of your product. Now, I know when, and this may be totally different, so I'm just asking this question because I'm personally want to know, I know that whenever you do something or take something that has a actual effect on the body, whether it's positive or negative, the body aims to adapt to whatever that is

by down regulating receptors, or this is true for exercise, drugs, like sunlight, my skin will start to adapt. All the body just tends to adapt. Are you seeing any evidence that it loses efficacy as people, if people use it for a long period of time consistently every day, or are you seeing the opposite, or people use it for a long period of time consistently every day, or are you seeing the opposite or does it not make a difference?

Sure. There's a few things that we actually have, and it's one of the reasons why it's so effective. We have 3D sound in our music. Next time you hear it, you'll actually hear the focal point of the sound being in front of you, then above you, and then left, and it's randomized throughout the track. It's really hard for your brain to lock on and to normalize it. And that's one of the reasons why it's much more effective than white noise or binaural beats is because those are just the same sound over and over. Yeah, there's no pattern to it, right? Or sorry, there is a pattern to it, but your brain can't figure it out kind of thing. So it's all this distractions

and stuff that your body would normally, or your brain would normally be paying attention to, is it's trying to figure out the different kinds and where the focal point of the sound is. Now is that to prevent what I talked about in potential adaptation? Basically, yeah, it's to prevent the adaptation or the normalization of it. And then we've actually found something different. So as far as it being less effective, we've actually find it's kind of like that pathway in your brain. So we say 10 to 15 minutes, but people that listen to brain FM regularly actually doesn't take them 10 minutes

again in the zone because they've they're already kind of exposed to it. Your brain is like, oh, I know what this is. And then five minutes is kind of like training your brain to actually zone in. So I've experienced that subjectively, but do you guys have any, like, when you guys test these sounds on people, do you see that as well? Do you see that? They're in that brainwave pattern faster now because they've been doing consistently, or is that something? Yeah, so, you know, there's, you know, with the science, there's just so much. And unfortunately, science experiments

are so expensive, right? So we're predominantly looking at people that have never used brain FM before, rather than seeing different applications for that, rather than power users that use it. So that's something we want to do down the road. But yeah, we're kind of in the preliminary research of testing our own use. When you guys are doing research on these people that are hearing it for the first time, is there a lot of discrepancy between each individual or does everybody seem to have the same response? Everyone I turn it on to, I've never heard a negative feedback.

No one's came back to me and I'm like, oh, that doesn't work or it sucks. You typically will use one of them if not all of them and most people have all fallen in love with it. So are you seeing that across the board or do you have some people that just doesn't work for them? So, I'm not the director of science. I was just talking about, we have a few PhDs on staff that work with us. But from my understanding, from talking to them, people get it differently. So we have seen across the board, it helps everyone. Some people get a really great effect in the first three minutes. Some people get a really great effect in five minutes or nine minutes or whatever.

But it does go across the board and helping people. And that's why we have that 15 minute mark too. Because some people, it works in three minutes, some people work in 15. Let's just say 15. Give us 15, right? As far as going beyond the 15 minutes, that's when those effects start to stack though, because there's a certain kind of that level that we have, you know, we want to get to

someone to that mental state. And the whole secret is not getting you there It's keeping you there the whole time you're listening to the music You know, that makes sense. It does. Yeah, when you're testing these songs out or when you when you for example Submitted your studies to to apply for the grant from the government Did you did you compare it to like placebo where you like okay, here's people listening to us and then here's people listening to because music and sounds for sure affect people. We've known this obviously for forever, right? Thousands and thousands. That's why we listen to music, music and folks, emotion, it's been used that way for lots for long forever. Movies use music for that, the radio obviously when we buy music, to change

the way we feel or whatever, are you guys, could the result just be because people are listening to music or are you comparing it to music that doesn't have what you guys have versus yours? Yeah, so we listen, we tested against a few different things. We've tested against placebo music, we've tested against Spotify, just like focused music, we've also tested against silence, right? And brain FM beats all of those. Silence is actually usually better for focus anyway for, for, you know, just working, because a lot of music, even though it, you know, a lot of music has sounds, a lot of music has, well, sounds, but they have a lot of voice, right? And your brain is actually, even if you're not paying attention to it, it's still working

hard to say, what is this person saying? All right. So silence is actually better usually than most music. And because our music is designed to be more effective than silence, you know, that we do have that stuff, but that's actually on our science page. Should we check that out? Do you personally use it with any sort of meditation or float tank?

Have you messed around with things like that? I have tried it with float tanks before. Oh, you have. I'm not just, I mean, to be completely honest, I wish I could do it more just because of traveling so much and going all over. We have a few cool things coming up for everyone. But yeah, it's very interesting.

I've done float tanks before or without it and with it, and it definitely, you know that feeling you're in the float tank and you're there for an hour, and you know it's a good session if it was like 20 minutes, you know what I mean? And then you have others that feel like four hours. It's just, it's very, very different. I would let people, you know, do it.

I'm not gonna recommend or not. I think it really depends on what you're looking for. You know, specifically we're focused, we do have meditation, we do have the relax, but our bread and butter right now is focused and sleep and that's what we're actively going into. A while ago when we first started working or using your product, Adam comes in one day

and he's like super excited, I have to share this. Yeah, go for it. He shared it on the show already, so it's not a secret. Super excited and he's like, dude, I got a hack. I'm like, what? And he goes, listen to a book with your girl. So you guys get nice and connected. And then put focus on the speakers and half-sex.

He's like the best sex ever. And he talked about doing it a bunch of times that Justin tested it. Actually vouch for this process. Yeah, that's that. So have you guys had anybody tell you, hey man, this song is not only good for this, but I've also used it.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna go into that stuff, but. The sex music would be awesome. Yeah, I mean, you know what? It's really just, again, it's that mental state you wanna be in. Right, and because we have, I mean, we have just between last time and now, our music that we're producing now

is crazy compared to the music just two years. It's more effective. Yeah, we have piano music can go to, and now we understand the level. So we can control the music to actually get you in the zone in five minutes and work three times as fast, but it's like getting on an elevator and just falling.

So we have to do it gradual. But. Now why is that? Because here's something I do notice. When I listen to focus, I put it at the right, it has to be at the right volume. If's too loud it almost makes me feel well just feels weird I don't feel right if I listen to the right volume. It's perfect Is that is that because it's too much like you said like I'm falling out down and over?

I don't know necessarily know if it's it's volume sometimes I mean it could matter on your headphones to and just what's Comfortable to you because that's you know that's usually with volumes, how your brain is absorbing the sound. But we have different kinds of speed or different kinds of protocols too. So, we don't just have one protocol that the AI uses. We have many different ones. So some tracks, because of the way they're designed, like, for example, our EDM tracks, or electronic tracks, they have different protocols, and they have to, based on our piano tracks.

So sometimes if people are in a section and they're like, oh, I get a headache, or I don't really feel it, or don't like it, I just suggest using a different kind of music. Is there a way to, because I have the app, is there a way to say, I want focus electronic, focus piano or is it just the random? No, so you can go to the Explorer section and you can actually see every single thing we have divided.

Oh, I haven't done that yet. Yeah, we're working on actually updating the app, the design and all that stuff. Unfortunately, it takes a long time because we have to make sure it's stable. But eventually, we'll have something. So if you predominantly use just the electronic, it'll just adapt to you. So we do, based on how people skip and use the tracks in the app right now, it does adjust to yourself and everyone, but

we're going to be doing a lot more redefined. So now you can select the experience you're doing. You're saying, hey, I want to focus. I want to crush emails today or I want to study for a test and it'll play a playlist design for you. And then it will adapt to you as you use it for other things. What are you guys doing right now as far as marketing and advertising? Are you getting on?

I know way back when we first met Adam and all of them, they were doing something with one of our buddies, Kyle Kingsbury, they had started a podcast and that didn't really turn out. Are you guys advertising on podcasts right now or any other places like how are you guys getting out there? Yeah, so I mean, part of the thing when I came in and kind of reshuffled things as far as leadership, I want to make sure one that we focused on getting our products stable, right? So when we first, we have iPhone

and Android apps, we've stabilized those and made sure that we could kind of make things inside the companies so we could grow really quick. So to answer your point, I guess directly is we're not doing a ton of marketing right now, but that's what we're focused on this the companies so we could grow really quick. So to answer your point, I guess, directly is, we're not doing a ton of marketing right now, but that's what we're focused on this half of the year. So that's, you know, one why I'm here, but two is we're doing some other podcasts, and then we're gonna be heavily into, you know,

referral systems, you know, Facebook marketing, things like that. So far you guys have grown pretty organically. Yeah, we actually have over 600,000 people in our day. Holy shit, wow. They've tried us. That's great. And we've never, I mean, we've done over 600,000 people in our day. Holy shit. Wow. They've tried us. Wow.

And we've never, I mean, we've done some small PR stuff. We've done some small podcast stuff, but that's, we know that's from referrals. And that's why I'm so excited. Now, do you guys have multiple membership options? I mean, how do the members, all the memberships work? Sure. So we have monthly, yearly, try monthly.

And then on our web, we have lifetime as well. We're actually getting rid of lifetime. So I don't know when this podcast comes out, but we're getting rid of it because we know how fast we're growing our... It's worth it to get lifetime. I feel like you guys are gonna be so much more expensive later on because it's quite effective.

Yeah, I mean, the whole price, honestly, I've had people, I've had, you know, other people that have similar businesses, they're like, you could charge $25, $50, $100 a month for this because it's a tool and people pay for it. But our whole mission is to help change the world through music and redefine what that means to people. And that's why we're priced affordably. So we may go up a few bucks, but that would only be because the service demands more

things from it. So when you came in here, you kind of mentioned that you guys were working on new stuff. Even before this, you mentioned that there was plans for the workout. Can you walk us through what that looks like and what your plans are with it? Sure. I mean, we have, so not only do we have workout music, but we have some really cool other stuff that we can kind of mention or talk about, stuff that we're experimenting with,

so we can talk about it if we have enough time. But as far as workout music, yeah, I mean, the plan is to make music designed to get you in the zone, and whether that's weightlifting and you want that pump, or if you are running and you want that runner's high, being able to get that. So like, you know, my background is, you know, I'm very active. I have a black belt, as I mentioned to you guys.

And you don't always get a pump, you know what I mean? Or it's different degrees. And what if we could make music that you listen to, and every single rep or every single workout is the best workout you've had. That's the whole premise. So we actually, we've been playing with this for a while. It sounds too good to be true, but shit.

It does, right? Can I invest? Can I tell it's gonna be worth? No, I mean, and that's what's exciting. So we look at the success we've had so far and if you look at it, a lot of people listen to music when they're working and sleeping right but everyone listens to music when they're working out like everyone does so we our whole thing is like how can we just help augment people and what they're already doing and workout is a no brainer if we can figure

it out I just started listening so internally we test everything ourselves and then we have you know some pilot stuff just to make sure, because we are science first, and we want to make sure that every product that we give out, we have a stamp of approval. But the stuff that I was listening to just this morning when I was getting ready, was like taking a shot of coffee. It was crazy. For real? Yeah, I haven't, I mean, you guys gave me some of your coffee, but it's the first cup

I've had today. Crazy. Yeah, I haven't I haven't I mean you guys gave me some of your coffee, but it's the first cup of that today Do you have a pro athletes or anybody like you're you're experimenting with this or like? For as far as workout not yet. It's it's too. It's too, you know early But with that's something we're probably gonna push for I mean we have a lot of pro athletes actually use our focus product I'm not sure if I can I them, so I won't, but. Michael Jordan. I didn't say anything. But for the further workout stuff,

that's something we can do. I think it'd be great to get professional runners or professional cyclists that not only can say, oh yeah, I actually feel it, but actually show it with results. So if you said, I have a lot of, so I cycle myself. And if you said you could listen to music that could take five minutes off my, you know, 20 mile ride, no brainer, you know what I mean? And the same exact thing like, like with working out for some reason, even if, even if it's

something that it gets you in that state so you can push more and you get more out of it, that's really the name of the game. Like we're not going to make music that's going to make you lift 20% more because that's your body. But if we can get your mental state there, that's going to get you strong, motivated, and this is not, and this by the way, this is, it's obvious. Now if you can do it, that's awesome, but it's obvious. Music for sure impacts athletic performance.

They've done 100%. They've done studies on this list. They've done studies on this list. Yeah, tons of stuff. I know if I'm about to do it, have you there? Everybody has that PR song. Yeah, you put Celine Dion on. I'm not gonna be, you know, pulling 600 pounds off the floor.

So basically the whole thought though is, what if, because a lot of people, they know what mental state they want and they search for music for, right? What if you said, this is the mental state we want, here's the music. So that's the whole thing, right? Like a lot of people, like what Tom Brady has is his pre-game playlist, right?

What if you said, okay, I want to listen to this kind of music and I want it again in the zone, I wanted to keep me there the whole time I'm working out like that's the whole Theory behind it. So we know that music impacts the brain as far and and there's like you said There's tons of studies for it, but our whole thing is we want to make it so every single time Yeah, I think a large part of the reason why just regular music does that to people is just the associations like I can play I can play the soundtrack to Rocky IV. Okay. I watched Rocky IVs, where Rocky fights the Russian by the way for

all you people under a rock. And the reason why that shit works for me is because when I was a kid and I watched Rocky IV, that was like, holy shit, that was the most inspirational motivational like he's fighting the Russian, he's winning. But if I play Rocky IV soundtrack to a bunch of 16 year olds today who've never seen Rocky IV, and they're gonna do shit for them because it's the association that creates that brain state. But what you're saying is the music that you guys are producing doesn't have to have an association, the music itself creates this thing.

That's because it's not only association that makes you do that. There's many other factors that give you that. That's because of all the neurophase locking and the things behind it, the mechanism. So, what if this though? Imagine, again, this is all, we're working to prove this, right? But what if you had a playlist that was designed, was engineered through science to get you there? And then you also had association. So you had a five songs that you played, you listened to before you jumped in the pool

as Michael Phelps or whatever, whatever activity you need to do. And you had the associations built there and you trained with it. And it was also designed to get you there. I don't know if you guys talked about this last time or if this was afterwards, but the last Olympics, so the summer Olympics, we had wrestling. Did you guys talked about this last time, or this was afterwards, but the last Olympics,

so the summer Olympics, we had wrestling. Did you guys hear about this? Yeah, they tried to, I think they tried to eliminate wrestling. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, well, no, that wasn't my, so we actually did a pilot with the Olympic wrestling. Oh, you did? Yeah.

And they listened to music, some of the focused music before their sets of what they do, and they'd also use their sleep at night. And I believe, and it could be wrong, but I'm almost 90%, 100% confident. No, but really the youngest male competitor for the US won gold. And he used their product every single day.

So that we know that there's something there because that was just, that was focused music, that wasn't specifically designed for working out. So, or designed to him, right? It wasn't, right. So now we're building on that premise, and it takes a long time to do it, but if you had workout and it got you in the zone, it made you work harder, it motivated you,

you got that runner's higher, that pump we talked about, and the user sleep project to sleep, and you slept through the night. What's that gonna turn into? Is it, no, is the AI you guys are building into it? Is it gonna be kind of like Pandora, where I thumb up if it was like, I enjoyed it a lot or a great workout?

Yeah, there's two parts of the AI. The composer, that is our backbone, it's our secret sauce, and then the algorithm of how we sort music, how we, you know, put buckets of personas together. So yeah, exactly, we're going to build out that kind of thing. That's cool. What has surprised you the most so far working with brain-of-fam in terms of how people are using it or reacting or responding to what you guys are doing? Question.

So, I fully believe in what the company is doing and that's why I quit my job to come here. And I think the biggest surprise is how many people this can actually influence, because it doesn't matter if you speak English or Chinese. It doesn't make, we're all very similar, right? As far as how our brain works and things like that, right? And I think I'm just most surprised on how many other people are getting it now. You, like, how many people, I'm like,

you know what, just try it. And they try it and they go, oh, oh, I get it. Like, we have, I have people that call me up the time and they're like, I wanna work for you too. You know? And I wish I could hire everyone, but I think that we're almost setting a whole new space for what different kind of category of music,

like an enhancement on top of things. So it's really, really great to see how many people support us in the journey, and want to help out. That's cool. You had mentioned there's some cool things that you guys are looking into. You talked about the workout one, but what other categories? Yeah, so there's a few different things. Some things there's way too early to say and some things are still wicked speculative,

right? That's my boss when coming out. But yeah, I mean, so we just had our head of operations actually just said a baby, right? Shout out to Aaron. And he, so we, one of the things because this is mind altering and so is caffeine, you know, same thing. We do have a warning that says, you know, legally, you have to be 18 to use the product. Oh, I didn't know that. So I'm just gonna say that before I say this, right? Cause I'm not saying to anyone to do this, right?

But a lot of people, they use like white noise and stuff for their kids, right? And that's actually shown in studies to actually not hurt the child, but not be great for a developing child. There's a lot of scientific research on mammalian brains, things like that. But imagine if you had the best lullaby created by science

for your kid. So you're a baby, fellas, sleep. You were talking about game changer, bro. Also, you parents that get actually... I don't wanna sit. Yeah, so they keep me from having kids right now, bro. I can't have six months of no sleep. There's stuff that we're beginning to look into. Yeah, so they keep me from having kids right now, bro. I can't have six months of no sleep

There's there's there's stuff that we're beginning to look into it's way too early and I again I do not recommend this to anyone legally Just you know want to put that out there But we believe that we could do something like that too. It's got to be less scary than what arties out there right? I know it's my baby Yeah, there's a lot ofe's out there, right? I know, it's my baby. Yeah, there's balls and dies. There's a lot of sound machines out there in white noise. You know, a lot of people use that in busy cities. And again, there's, there's, there's,

he hasn't been studies on, I don't believe in babies for that, but there's been studies on like 24 hours for like rats and things like that. And it does affect growth. It'd be interesting how that would influence our mind going forward and after that. You know, I'm reading a neuroscience psychology book right now, and one of the things,

it challenges the classical view of what we believe before, where like you guys kind of mentioned earlier about this primal instinct to react, and what they're saying is that that's kind of been disproven that it's not just that there's so many different variables that make the brain decide or certain neurons fire. It's a cluster of them. It's not like this exact pathway that every time you hear that rustle in the brush, you go to flight or flight or like you said earlier, well part of what really makes that happen is that it's a multiple factors. Lots of information. Yeah, lots of information, and your brain is predicting what it could potentially be, and

it's not a direct flight or flight response. And so, if you start to get those sounds, the baby used to that at early age, I wonder if that would just set him up or her up for later, like to just fall right into it, you know, like I wonder how that will influence them. Yeah, we don't really know. I mean, the one of the coolest parts about this is parts of the brain, we still don't know how it works. We don't know what consciousness is even, right?

And we're on the leading edge of figuring that out. The founder, he's very confident that we've only figured out 2%. There's so many more things. So down the road, I know you're joking and we talked about sex before and stuff, but like, maybe, I'm not here to say yes or no, but there's a lot of really, really interesting stuff. And again, I mean, I'm communicating to everyone listening by moving my mouth and making vibrations that are, you know, it's really, really great.

So our whole culture has been able to build from communicating through sounds. Absolutely, are you? Are you? Yeah, I was just gonna say, back in the day, we used to give girls mixed tapes. It's gonna be totally different. Yeah, you're right.

I hate babe, listen to the song. It's my sex tape. Oh, weird, you horny. Okay. But no, I mean mix. I am not saying that. Yeah. Our ability to discern sounds and inflections

and it's just mind boggling how cute it is. And we're building that. We're building a baby can him back a song to you. And they can't, they don't even know what mama is yet. So we're leading the edge. There's so much more that we can do. But right now we do have a product we're very proud of that has shown to work on a wide variety of people. Again, for people that are looking to become

a better individual and use as a tool and then people that are looking to normalize and not use tons of medications for it. The two most exciting things for me that you talk about are the ones, the sounds and songs that can calm anxiety because statistically speaking, right now, anxiety is the number one mental health issue. It's exploding. Kids are getting it now, whereas kids use to not get it. The other one is attention deficit disorder or attention deficit hyperactive disorder because attention deficit disorder or attention deficit hyperactive disorder because the percentage of children that are on methamphetamine or methamphetamine like drugs is actually quite alarming.

It's extremely alarming and it's scary. So if we can find an alternative to those things, then that's awesome. But my other question with that is side effects. I have yet to notice any side effects for any of your products, but are there any side effects that you need to warn about or anything you guys have seen? There's only one that we've encountered, and that's just headaches if you are dehydrated. So the whole product and the whole way these other ADHD medicines work is they take blood from your extremities and they pump it into your brain basically like re distribute

Blood in your body our music actually does the same exact thing So that's what we can see the blood flow and that's why we have we feel like we can change it and redistribute it maybe For the workout stuff But oh I see to the muscles maybe Yeah, son of a bitch No wonder you said that Yeah, so wait a minute redirect blood to the extremities. I can see the sex one now. There we go But yeah, I mean as far as a product we just say you know if you get a headache drink some water You know or try something try different kind of music because some people, they really like the piano stuff,

but some people like more of the electronic or some of the background, it just, it really depends on, there's still some fine tuning. Have you guys tested like dopamine levels and catacole means while people are on these yet, or is it all right? Not yet, not yet. Yeah, that's something that we'll probably going in.

I mean, I think part of it too is, is behind motivation, is being happy too. You know, it's, so I think that's something that could be interesting, but we just don't have enough science on that yet. Well, fuck it. Excellent, man. We're, I tell you what, I mean, we've been affiliated with you guys for a while, but we, not under any obligation to mention you guys. We, it's always, it's literally organic when we mention you guys, because even till the day it's been been how long has it been now since we first use it a year almost two years

Yeah, and it's it's the what's what it's one of them use every day almost. Yeah, it's one of the products I use still to the state so we'll just mention it organically because we still use it So I mean I totally vouch for its effectiveness and it is exciting that you guys did get that grant and that people that they're maybe looking at this as either an adjuvant or an alternative to medications for treating things like ADD. So, exciting stuff man. That's great. Yeah, appreciate you coming on

and talking to our audience about this kind of stuff. My pleasure, my pleasure. I hope to come back some day. Very cool. Thank you. Thank you for listening to MindPomp. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump

Media.com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps on the ballad, maps for performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout nutrients in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a 430-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review

on iTunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is MindPump. Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support. And until next time, this is Mind Pump.