Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 775: Dr. Michael Ruscio- Healthy Gut, Healthy You

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Dude, Dr. Ruscio, one of my favorite people. I'm so glad we connected with him a while ago. He's like our resident gut health expert, buffed, good looking doctor guy. Right, he's also become a really good friend, man, for sure. I mean, we hit it off the very first time that we hung out

Starting point is 00:00:29 down in Paleo way back when, right, the two years ago, two or three years ago, was now. He's a really, it's been maybe three. He's a really good guy. And what I like about Dr. Ruscio is he's not an alarmist, you know what I mean? He's very calculated with what he says. Well, he reminds me the way he answered,

Starting point is 00:00:46 and this is what really connected all of us, right? Was when I'd ask him a question, the way he'd answer it reminds me of how we answer questions. Somebody, the first example, someone says, I don't what's the best exercise to build your chest? Like you will not get like a,

Starting point is 00:01:01 oh incline or do these or do that from me, I'm gonna say, because we know that it depends. Right, it depends on so many different variables and yeah, actually a chest fly could be possibly the best thing for your chest or it could be the worst thing for you to do to grow your chest. Depends on a lot of different factors and so when he talks about the gut, I really, I really appreciate that part of him because it is such, it's so complex.

Starting point is 00:01:25 And there are so many things, so many variables. And there's extremely individual. And there's a lot of unknowns still. And so when he explains, it really helps me. I know, and sometimes I'm sure you guys will hear in this episode, he does get pretty deep. And you know, he tends to go like with Sal or they get in the weeds for a little bit on some topics,

Starting point is 00:01:43 realize that it's not about only trainers that are listening to this podcast, but it is I think it's one that you should listen to multiple times. I think his book that we talk about. That's the thing. Get his book. His book is written for the average person to be able to understand, read through and work on themselves. And that's the thing we talked a lot about in this podcast is just how individual somebody's gut can be and what may work for one person may not work for another person. His book goes into this and it actually walks you through step by step. It's one that I always recommend to people who ask me questions on gut health. And the name of the book is Healthy Gut, Healthy You. You can go to Dr. Rusio, that's drrucio.com.forthslash.getgutbook. Or you can just buy it on Amazon. I think we'll put a link in the show notes. And he also has a podcast, Dr. Rusio Radio. And he talks a lot about gut health, of course, but other

Starting point is 00:02:43 things that pertain to health, because he's also... No, he's got a lot about gut health, of course, but other things that pertain to health, because he's also... He's got a great Instagram page, and he plugs it in the episode. We ask him where to find him, or I think Sal asked him what exactly your Instagram was, and it's Dr. Ruscio's last names, R-U-S-C-I-O, so that's his Instagram handle.

Starting point is 00:02:59 And then this episode was actually a perfect, right? We have a gut health especially. Dude, I'm so happy he likes this, the kombucha that we're working with. Yeah, no. Yes, this episode is sponsored by the brew doctor and our official kombucha of mind pump. Yes, yes, yes.

Starting point is 00:03:15 Very low in sugar. It's a probiotic beverage. If you've heard us talk about kombucha in the past. Also, I do wanna mention this month, if you enroll in any maps bundle, that is bundles are where we take two or more maps programs, put them together and discount them, you will get the nutrition guide for free,

Starting point is 00:03:36 the intuitive nutrition guide for free, and you'll get the intermittent fasting guide for free, and you can find those all at mymputmedia.com. I posted to, I've had a lot of people ask me because I do have posted the kombucha on my InstaStory and people are asking where to get it. You can guys can find it at Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, New Seasons, Kroger, Sprouts,

Starting point is 00:03:57 most Costco's will have it. So it's one of the more popular kombucha's out there. That's right. So without any further ado, here we are talking to Dr. Michael Ruscio. When you were riding this, who did you have in mind, like when you were riding it? Now obviously, because it's a gut health book, that there's, it's for everybody, but when you are putting it together, who do you think, like, okay, this is going to be, who's going to be purchasing and reading this the most?

Starting point is 00:04:22 What are you thinking? You know, I picture patients in my clinic, right? People who were motivated to improve their gut health, not necessarily someone who's never even heard of a probiotic, right? Cause I wanted to give them something to do after you did the first two or three things that stereotypically come to mind when you think gut health.

Starting point is 00:04:40 Which would be like a patient in my clinic. I just improved my diet, I'm still floundering. I took a probiotic, I'm still floundering. And I hear all the questions that patients ask. Patients come in, they're scared of death of gluten. I read, you know, my mother had Hashimoto's and I've read that if you have a family history of auto-immunity, you could never have one

Starting point is 00:04:57 by death gluten, so I haven't been having any gluten. And this person is now under weight, right? They've lost like 15 pounds, you shouldn't have lost, because they're not eating enough food, they're super fearful, and they just come in with all this unnecessary indoctrinated baggage and confusion. You know, I read about paleo, I read about autoimmune paleo, I read about low five map, I read that you shouldn't

Starting point is 00:05:21 take probiotics if you have sebum, but I think I have sebum, but then I read that breath testing is inaccurate. You should you have Cibo, but I think I have Cibo, but then I read the bread-thesting using accurate You should rather do a year and they come in and they're just being crippled by fear and questions and all the what about It's what about this what about that? So I want to write them a book that would teach them the important information They need to know and then walk them through okay now. What do we do with all that? Not not let's do everything at once, but where do we start? Then we reevaluate and then where do we start, then we reevaluate, and then where do we go from there?

Starting point is 00:05:48 Just how individual is it when you're working with someone with for their gut health? In other words, there's a lot of general information that's out there to improve your gut health, but I feel like it's like anything else where we know that there's certain exercises, for example, that are good for you, but that doesn't mean you have a good program. And it doesn't mean that that program will work for you, and it doesn't mean it will work for you all the time. How true is that for people's gut health?

Starting point is 00:06:17 It's very true. But I think there's two ways to look at this. It's good to have an algorithm to walk people through and an algorithm almost stays the same because an algorithm is kind of like a changing formula, right? So you have a set algorithm but then how you navigate the algorithm depends on the individual's response, right? So the algorithm is painstakingly crafted from looking at the medical literature and trying to identify here are the treatments that are under the umbrella of what I would organize first,

Starting point is 00:06:52 meaning delis expensive, delis invasive, and the most effective. So diet would fall into that camp. And you start people with the diets that are the most effective, and you even organize the couple dietary trials in order of the diets that are the most effective, and you even organize the couple dietary trials in order of the diet that's the simplest to implement, and will be effective for the most people, firstly,

Starting point is 00:07:13 and then if that doesn't help them, you tweak the diet. So you may start with paleo, and if paleo doesn't work, you may go to low fod map. So the big picture is somewhat, I guess you could say pre-programmed, but not everyone is going to go through the same program as everybody else because you build into the process, this very personalized series of checkpoints. Go on the payload app for two weeks. Are you feeling clearly improved or not? If yes, you know, continue through to maintenance. If no, we'll tweak now to low-fod map.

Starting point is 00:07:47 And then you go into the probiotic protocol, and it's the same kind of thing. We try the few available probiotics. If that provides relief, then we go right into maintenance. If it doesn't provide relief, we build on that further. So it's a combination of using the wonder of all this medical literature that we have, and then some common sense in terms of how you implement that and and that's really a key aspect

Starting point is 00:08:11 because I've observed that people tend to go right to the most invasive most exotic treatments. Everyone thinks that they need to, for example, using gluten-free dieting as an example, people think that if they have a problem with gluten, they have to eat like they have celiac. But that's like saying, if you have a blood sugar of 103, you have to eat like you're an end-stage diabetic. Right? It just doesn't, you don't have to go to that level of rigor. If you want to, fine. Right? If you want to, no, I'm not going to say that you shouldn't, but for a lot of people, the extra effort it takes to go from eating a gluten-reduced diet

Starting point is 00:08:50 to a fully 100% gluten-free diet, there's a big chasm there of effort and mental anguish and social stress. So it's important to understand some of that nuance in terms of, okay, do you have to go all the way to full blown eating like you're silly? I can never having any gluten. Or can you get away with some from time to time? I'm not saying make it a staple, but if you're out with friends and you want to have a beer or a slice of pizza, you can potentially have that. I like what you're saying.

Starting point is 00:09:21 You sound a lot like somebody who's worked with a lot of people. And the reason why I'm saying that is as trainers, when people ask us, what's the most effective workout or what's the, you know, what should I do to lose weight or whatever, we know that there's that other component of, is this individual going to adhere to this advice? Does it work with their lifestyle? And everybody's a little bit different. Whereas people who have no experience working with other people, will say something like,

Starting point is 00:09:47 you know, here's your work out. Here's your meal list. Exactly. And never worth. Or this is what the research says is best. Right? Like this is what's best, is what they've studied. Do this.

Starting point is 00:09:56 Without taking into account, yeah, all the other variables. All the other variables. And so I really like the way you're talking. And I have to ask you because I follow some of the gut health literature that's coming out. I like to read about it quite a bit. I've had my own issues in the past.

Starting point is 00:10:10 And it seems like the past few years, the research is exploded, or at least the results of a lot of research is exploding. And it's becoming more and more accepted mainstream. They're finding now gut health connected to, I mean everything, your moods even, you've been doing this for a long time. How long have you been practicing in this particular specialty? Almost eight years. So eight years ago, nobody was really talking about this kind of stuff, or at least, I don't know the word. Less so, much less so. I would have been very difficult to find a specialist.

Starting point is 00:10:46 They got how specialist years ago. And only, yeah, like outside of, of course, of gastroenterologist, but someone like myself was in the integrative medicine camp. Yes. Yeah, there was much less specialization. And I think that's because you're seeing the field really grow, where now there's so much information

Starting point is 00:11:05 that we, in my opinion, need to be specializing to a degree, even with the natural therapies. And the natural therapies all kind of emanate from this philosophical trunk, if you will, of diet and lifestyle, right? So there's always gonna be that commonality, but then when you get into someone who goes deep into, let's say, Lyme disease, compared

Starting point is 00:11:26 to, or mass activation syndrome, compared to someone in gut health, that's where understanding the nuance is really important. And don't get me wrong. A natural, let's just say, general practitioner for lack of a better term, the equivalent of a natural general practitioner, they'll get you pretty far, right? But there's always gonna be those cases where the GP, the natural GP doesn't have in their toolkit what is needed to ameliorate the problem

Starting point is 00:11:53 of the person presenting. So yes, there's more that we're learning, so we're having to specialize. And I think that's where natural medicine is gonna continue to go, is into this realm of somewhat specialization. And that's exciting, the question I was gonna ask you is what made you decide to, eight years ago,

Starting point is 00:12:10 there wasn't a whole lot of people doing what you're doing. Why'd you choose that? Why'd you go in that direction? Well, firstly there was my experience, and we talked about this last time I was on, but in college, I went from feeling great, feeling pretty terrible, and it turned out that I had a parasite that was causing that problem. But before I found that out, I went on the internet, I read about all my symptoms,

Starting point is 00:12:29 I thought I had low testosterone, I thought I had low thyroid, I thought I had heavy metal toxicity, I thought I had a adrenal fatigue. And so I did what I see a lot of people doing, another reason why I wrote the book in the fashion that I did was try to save people from putting the cart before the horse, so to speak, and I spun my wheels with all these self-diagnosisies and self-treatments, and it wasn't until I fixed my gut that I really saw improvement. And I carried that forward with me, and in practice, I've kept doing more of what has worked the best. And out of all the things I've looked into, I've done training in Lyme, I've done training in heavy metal detox, I've done training in thyroid, the two things that produce the most consistent

Starting point is 00:13:17 and market improvements in patients are optimizing their digestive health. There are other things that can be helpful, definitely. But the most impactful, by far and away in my mind, was the therapies that were directed at gut health. And now we're seeing, to your earlier point, all these studies pouring in showing that probiotics can help reduce brain fog.

Starting point is 00:13:37 And dietary changes can help reduce immune activation. And fixing one's gut can help with thyroid auto immunity. There's a litany of examples that we could cite. And yeah, it's exciting to see the interest and this boom in research going in the direction that I'm positioned. And I feel really fortunate to be there. But in direct answer to your question, the gut therapies were just the most effective. What do you think our guts are worse today than they were 10 and 20 and 30 years ago?

Starting point is 00:14:04 Yeah, it seems like it's going crazy. What do you think our guts are worse today than they were 10 and 20 and 30 years ago? Yeah, it seems like it's going crazy. I think our general health is on a decline. Right. And, you know, it's tough, because I don't want to paint an overly, you know, a pessimistic picture, but it does seem that as we've changed our environment to be more hygienic and Experience some of the benefits that come because of that reduced infantile death and prolonged lifespan

Starting point is 00:14:34 As we've come farther away from some of these dirt and germs and in a more ancestral or 100-gatherer type lifestyle There's been a biological trade-off, and the con of that trade-off is we're seeing more inflammatory and immune diseases that are a byproduct of that. So it's great when we can save a child through an emergency cesarean birth, but that does increase their probability

Starting point is 00:15:01 of inflammatory and immune conditions later in their life because they miss out on that inoculation of bacteria as they pass through the vaginal canal. That does increase the probability of inflammatory and immune conditions later in their life because they miss out on that inoculation of bacteria as they pass through the vaginal canal. So I don't want to pain it as a criticism of medicine or the Western lifestyle. You know, we're making a decision and there's a pro and con we have to calculate as part of that. Speaking of pros and cons, talk a little bit more on that controversial topic you just went over right there with C-sections because I see that a lot and I just had a good friend of mine that had'm familiar with, but I did recently interview

Starting point is 00:15:45 a nurse midwife on my podcast and she made a pretty compelling case for the fact that C-sections may be a bit overly done, right? And I think there's a case there to be made. Now I choose my language very carefully, that's why I said emergency C-section. That's really where you're contending with potentially death. And so there's, in my mind, very little of an argument you can make against an emergency C-section. A, you know, proactive or elected C-section, there's new on-ster that I'm not familiar with all the details regarding, but this midwife didn't make the case that it seems that

Starting point is 00:16:23 they're being overly done, and now there may be a pullback from doing it that much. Or another method is they're doing vaginal swabs now, and then coding the children in the mother's vaginal bacteria, so that may be a way to counteract that. But I do think there's evidence that supports they're being done in excess. Yeah, from what I've read on that whole process, it's the process of coming in to the hospital,

Starting point is 00:16:48 being put on Potosin, which makes the birthing process more painful, then they give you an epidural because it's more painful, but now you have to be on your back, which makes birthing more difficult, and then boom, C-section becomes more, I think it's some hospitals like half. Yeah, it's cascade that seems to be initiated

Starting point is 00:17:04 when you go to the hospital, whereas working with a dual or a midwife, you don't start as quickly down that cascade of epidermis and numbing agents and being restricted to bed rest. And she also makes this gal that I interviewed also made a good point that oftentimes, people aren't given education ahead of time.

Starting point is 00:17:23 So they go into the hospital and they're thinking that all these things are mandatory and they don't understand that nothing bad may happen if I don't elect to do this. It's just the way that they do it. But because you're in a hospital and there's people buzzing in and out and bells going off,

Starting point is 00:17:36 you're in a very de-leveraged and kind of fearful position. So this leads me to a question where I've read that we inherit quite a bit of our microbiome fingerprint, if you will, from our mothers. So my question is you're talking about the the you know how western societies in particular hyper clean and we may be reaping some of the benefits but also some of the unintended consequences of that. And they call it the what is it the clean hypothesis or something like that?

Starting point is 00:18:06 There's a hygiene hypothesis. The hygiene hypothesis. Or the old friends. It's also known as. Yeah. So things are so clean and now we're getting autoimmune issues and we're getting gut issues as a result of our immune systems not being exposed to certain things. Is it, but it seems like it's getting worse faster.

Starting point is 00:18:23 Is this because mothers pass on their microbiome and because now mothers have maybe less diversity than it's just compounding? It seems compound from generation to generation, but it's not the only factor, right? There's pollution, there's food quality, there's stress, there's more isolated type of lifestyle that we're living, right?

Starting point is 00:18:44 So I mean, I think it's multifactorial. And if you're speaking about the insult on the micro buying specifically, that also seems to be getting worse. Right, because there used to be more farmers and more contact with farm. I was just home visiting my family in Massachusetts and I took my niece and nephew for a walk around the block.

Starting point is 00:19:04 And there was one point where There's this cold assack and at the end of that cold assack. There used to be all these woods now It's all houses, right? And so the the natural environment where we derive some of these bacteria that have an impact on our Microbiota and our immune systems are Drying up so it's not only compounding biologically, but I think it's also compounding environmentally. What role do you know, modern inventions like glyphosate that are sprayed on GMOs? Like what role do you think that plays in some of that stuff? Do you tell patients to avoid GMO foods? Does it make a big difference? Well, so you ask a good question. This

Starting point is 00:19:42 is something I talk about in the book to try to give people an answer to this question because Sometimes people are struggling for not a quid solution to the kind of gourdian knot of do I start first with organic or Would I be better off having an organic TV dinner or fresh vegetables that are non organic? Sure, right and so The first thing I recommend people do is eat the right foods. Rather than worrying about it being organic, I'd rather you eat fresh and foods that are, for lack of a better term, in alignment with the paleo diet

Starting point is 00:20:19 or whatever diet plan we chose for them as they're going through the diet protocol aspect of the book. Whole foods. Whole foods first that are compliant with the diet plan that you're going to be on, then second would be organic foods. Now in an ideal world to your earlier point, we would do all of them, right? But experience teaches us that not everyone has the resources financially, yeah, financially or mentally or logistically to implement everything at once. You know, throw all your teflon, get a water filter, get an air filter, all organic,

Starting point is 00:20:48 pasture raised. That's a tall order to go from if you're just trying to stop eating as much bread and eat more vegetables. Yeah, fast food twice a day for the last 10 years. Exactly. Exactly. So, we do lay out a hierarchy, but first you want to have whole foods, then after that you can opt for either organic or locally grown.

Starting point is 00:21:08 And I look at those on a similar kind of footing. So if you can only invest in one thing, I would get the right foods, fresh whole foods, worry about organic and pasture raised and all those things later as you feel like, okay, now I have these dietary changes down, they feel doable, they're somewhat habituated. Now, you know, what next challenge would I like to try to integrate? Now that being said, you do notice that glyphosate's having effect on people's guts, is that, are you seeing that? I mean, this is based off the experience, right? It's really hard to say because when do I have someone coming in saying, I had this wheat that's

Starting point is 00:21:43 been sprayed with glyphosate compared to this wheat that's been sprayed with like a phosphate compared to this one that hasn't. And I was attempting for a little while there to try to do a review of the literature to try to compare observed rates of celiac in countries with higher to lower use of these certain insecticides or herbicides, but I don't know if we have a robust enough body of literature to answer that. So it is something that I had on my list, and I may

Starting point is 00:22:17 try to tackle that again. And if anyone listening is affiliated with the university and thinks they have interest to do that, I'd be happy to kind of pool our resources, but when I initially reached out to one of the universities that I work with, that assisted me in publishing another, well, we haven't published it yet, but we essentially got IRB approval for another study and we'll be initiating that soon. We've been delayed because of an incredibly hard time obtaining placebo, but that's another story. When we started digging some of the details, it didn't seem we had enough of a data set

Starting point is 00:22:48 to answer that question. And so that's why I try to be very, again, very careful in the language that it used because I see the problem occurring where people make inflated, and I'm not saying you're doing this, but people in general make these inflated claims. And then what ends up happening is people get a far worse picture of the way things actually are because no one is trying to really be conservative and discerning in the language that they use. And at sea-legged diseases is a good example of that. That's one of the things I like about you is you're very calculated what you're saying,

Starting point is 00:23:18 very careful with how you say it, just because you want to be very accurate and I really appreciate that. What are some of the biggest, I guess, what are some of the biggest problems that people are finding with food? Like single things, like, is it gluten? I mean, you've mentioned gluten a couple times. Yeah, let's tackle that, because that's a big one, right?

Starting point is 00:23:36 Like, I read an article, people love to send me this kind of shit with those send me a study that says, gluten intolerance doesn't exist. Or, you know, this new, this study shows that it isn't a gluten intolerance, it's not real except for celiacs. And I know that's false because I'm one of those people that reacts to gluten, but I don't have celiacs.

Starting point is 00:23:53 I can, what's the deal with gluten? Well, that's a long, long answer, but I'll give you a few of the most relevant strokes. When you hear people say that gluten intolerance is not a thing, they're probably citing this one study that found that it was actually a FODMAP intolerance that attribute that was the cause of a factor for the reaction and not the gluten itself. Now we also review this in the book. There have essentially been and this may have changed since about a year ago

Starting point is 00:24:23 because the body of literature here is evolving quite quickly. But there have been five randomized control trials looking to establish is non-sealiac glutin sensitivity in issue or not. And that's the condition where you don't have sealiac, but you have a problem with gluten, right? I get bloated, I get headaches, I get joint pain, whatever. Four of those five studies in a placebo-controlled double-blinded fashion did find that it was in fact the gluten that caused a reaction.

Starting point is 00:24:51 One study did find it was not the gluten, but it was the FODMAPS. So this is why being careful in your language is important because you could misrepresent those studies, that one low FODMAPS study, if you didn't look in context of the greater body of literature, you could potentially be confused in terms of what that means. So it means that both of these things are an issue. And let me tie this to another study. There was a multi-center study in Italy that looked at 12,225 patients, and you had a group of gastroenterologist who are really trying to answer this question and they comprised a 60 point assessment

Starting point is 00:25:27 including questionnaires, lab tests, and physical examination to try to assess what was the prevalence and what were the symptoms and associated conditions that occur with non-seuliac gluten sensitivity. And essentially what they found was a 3% occurrence in that population of non-celiac gluten sensitivity. Now, 12,000 patients is a good sample size,

Starting point is 00:25:51 but it wasn't Italy. And there may, I don't know this to be true, there may be less glycophosphate use in Europe than there is the US. I've heard that I have not fact checked it. And unless I fact checked it, I do not believe it because you just can't believe what you hear. You have to check these.

Starting point is 00:26:07 Have you heard it from other patients too? Because I've heard clients will be like, I can't eat bread in America. So I'm, or possibly gonna get it. I'm getting it. So my suspicion is that people have been indoctrinated, not everyone, okay? Not everyone, but I think there's a fair proportion

Starting point is 00:26:21 of the population in the US that have been indoctrinated into thinking you can't have any gluten. But in Europe it's different and you can. And they've never adequately tested it in the US. And when they go to Europe, they're actually discovering they don't have as much of a problem with gluten as they thought they did. A, or B, they're on vacation, they're less stressed, they're sleeping more, and they're having fun, and you're seeing the lifestyle component reflect.

Starting point is 00:26:47 And I see that quite a bit, where patients come into my clinic afraid of food, and finally, someone in a position of authority says, you can eat some gluten, you can expand your diet, and they go, Oh my God, I stopped searching out about food, I'm eating more, and I'm feeling so much better. So, I don't know if I fully buy that.

Starting point is 00:27:05 I'm open to that, and that's the question I wanted to answer with my previous inquiry into this issue, but it didn't seem like there was adequate data set to answer it. But continuing on with this one study, 3% were found to have non-seated pollutant sensitivity, estimates in the U.S. range from 0.6% to 6%. So there could be more of this in the US, but I don't know if we have a banana quit data set that fully answer that question, but 3% to 6% isn't a huge change. It tells you that non-select gluten sensitivity is an issue, but is it an issue that affects 90% of the population as some people would probably have you believe?

Starting point is 00:27:46 No, it's probably more so the minority than it is the majority. So I think that's really important to keep in mind. Now, they also looked at autoimmune conditions because one of the first things that comes up is well, I've heard that if you have an autoimmune condition you should never have gluten. Well, is that really true?

Starting point is 00:28:02 They found that 14% of the people with non-seuliac gluten sensitivity. So it's 14% of that 3%. Right? It's not 14% of the entire population. Right? 3% were found to have non-seuliac gluten sensitivity of that 3% 14 had autoimmune conditions. So that's not a lot. Right? But it is documented and it is legitimate. So you need to see both sides of it. And of that, about 9% of that 14% had autoimmune thyroid. So some people say, I've heard that if you have autoimmune thyroid, you can never have any gluten. There isn't association between thyroid,

Starting point is 00:28:40 autoimmune, and celiac disease. And I think it's the most common autoimmune condition, next to celiac disease in terms of the relation, and thyroid autoimmunity is the most prevalent autoimmune condition. So yes, it is an issue, but should you blindly avoid gluten if you have thyroid autoimmunity without ever doing some elimination, reintroduction to see what your relationship is? No, you shouldction to see what your relationship is.

Starting point is 00:29:05 No, you should figure this out through your own experience. Now, there's two other things that are really key. One, it was found, so let me take a step back and just frame this. People often say, well, I've heard that if I include and that could fuel this autoimmune process that may not cause any symptoms for months or years. Have you guys heard that? So if I start eating gluten now, five, three years from now, I'm going to have a higher chance.

Starting point is 00:29:34 Yeah, you're fueling this underlying inflammatory process that won't manifest symptomatically for years. Okay, that may be true, and I am open to that if we prove that. But in my clinical experience, and also with this study finding, I don't think that's fully supported, at least not for the vast majority of patients. In the same study with the 12,225 patients of which 3% noticed they had non-seated acutensivity, over 90% of people who reacted to the gluten reacted within 24 hours. So that tells you, that you know pretty good.

Starting point is 00:30:07 You would most, and it makes sense. If you were feeling active damage to your body, you would feel, most likely, you'd feel some kind of symptom associated with that. Now, the symptoms can be very diverse. For some people, it could be a skin reaction. For some people, it could be a neurological reaction like feeling incordinated, a bit atastic or feeling that they have brain fog or slurred

Starting point is 00:30:27 speech. For other people it may be constipation or diarrhea or fatigue or joint pain. So there's not a symptom but if you notice all the sudden you're having a symptom pop up within 24 hours of your gluten reintroduction then that's pretty safe to say you should be avoiding gluten. Now can someone not have an intolerance to food, then develop an intolerance, and then through working through it, it go away? Yeah, so that's actually a great transition to the final point I wanted to make from this study. The same study found that 30% of people had their reaction to the gluten that was attributable

Starting point is 00:31:03 to something else, meaning small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, fibmap intolerance, or some other problem in the gut that was causing them to be reactive to the gluten in the first place. So when they get rid of that, so when they fixed their gut, 30% of patients who had a reaction to the gluten as we label non-sealiac gluten sensitivity were able to then e-gluten and be devoid of symptoms. Well, that's very interesting. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:28 And I see quite a bit of that. So I think more people can e-gluten than think they can. Now, I want to be careful in saying, because I will hear the gluten-free zealots getting angry. I'm not saying that some people do not derive enormous benefit from going gluten-free. But you're not seeing what I'm seeing, which are people do not derive enormous benefit from going gluten free, but you're not seeing what I'm seeing, which are people coming into the clinic decimated by fear regarding gluten.

Starting point is 00:31:51 And because they're trying to live a 100% gluten free lifestyle. So I think for the majority of people, a gluten reduced diet is probably a pretty safe place to be. Well, you're not even saying that day you wouldn't pick that as one of the few things to look into right away, right? I imagine that's still one of the major points. And one of the first things I start people with. Right. So it's just I think people take it to an extreme level like they do with everything.

Starting point is 00:32:12 Because if you had a guess, what percentage of people would you guess based upon what you hear, right? The, the, you know, ethos of opinion and natural medicine would be the percentage of people who can't include. It'd be, high, right? Well, one of the first things that people go on when they're trying to fix their gut health is a grain-free, typically diet. Not just gluten-free, but grain-free. Which I support, I support that.

Starting point is 00:32:34 But what we wanna do on the tail end of that is then go into a reintroduction to find what your personal diet should be. Some people will have the short end of the stick there. And they'll have to be very careful to avoid gluten. But other people will have the short end of the stick there and they'll have to be very careful to avoid gluten. But other people will have the ability to take some liberty and we want those people not to be encumbered by any unnecessary dietary restrictions. That's all I'm driving at.

Starting point is 00:32:54 Something you said that was really interesting was how you could have an underlying condition that is fueling or driving a particular food intolerance. And it makes me wonder how many people out there are managing an issue that they don't know the root of. They're managing it by eliminating all these foods and like, well, I can no longer eat those foods. Not knowing they have SIBO or something else that is driving that. Is that common?

Starting point is 00:33:20 I think it's, yeah, I mean, it's fairly common. And that's why in the action plan in my book, we start off with diet, but we essentially walk through a re-evaluation at the end of the dietary step, and we say, yes or no, you feel like you're at least 70% improved. And if you are not, we're gonna move forward. Because what can end up happening is people can try to force your point, a dietary solution to a non-dietary problem.

Starting point is 00:33:52 Right? If you have SIBO, and again, it's not all about SIBO, it's just a very commonly discussed topic right now, so I'm using that as one of our proxies for going balances, but there are many like types of dysbiosis or imbalances in the life in your gut that can occur. But if you have SIBO, if you have significant SIBO, you can eat around that, right? You can eat a low-fob-mab- you know, a strict low-fob-mab diet and you can do fairly well with that. But there's a chance that you won't have to eat a strict of a low-fob-ptiate or a paleo diet or whatever it is that's providing relief if you clean up other problems in your gut. So that's why we have our step one diet and end-life style, and if at the end of that you're

Starting point is 00:34:36 not feeling like you have at least improved by 70 percent, then we keep working through the steps. Have you had a lot of patients come in that you just know there's a lot of psychological factors that contribute to what you're trying to address things in their diet, but at the same time you can pretty much tell that a lot of us derive from their state. Yeah. That's why I'm so, as you can probably tell, passionate about giving people accurate and very well thought out advice. Because I think

Starting point is 00:35:07 we've gotten to a tipping point now where people are not being responsible with the language that they use and the accuracy of the recommendations that's we're making and it's making people think they have problems when they don't have problems. And so you're absolutely right. I see more of that than I'd like to admit that I see. And that's why I tried to have written into the tapestry of the book this message that is empowering and non-endotrinating. I don't want people to walk away from the book feeling afraid of food or dependent on supplements

Starting point is 00:35:40 because you shouldn't be, right? But when someone writes a book, and this is not a dig on anyone who's done this? But when someone writes a book, and this is not a dig on anyone who's done this, but when someone writes a book with 101 reasons why gluten is bad, and a plan to avoid gluten, and they don't give you this broader context, then people walk away thinking, I can never have gluten.

Starting point is 00:35:57 And then they, but three months later, they read about how if you have bacterial overgrowth, which they think they have, because they heard a symptom of bacterial overgrowth is bloating, then you shouldn't eat fog maps. So now they're gluten-free and the low fog map. Then six months later, they read about the autoimmune paleo diet and how they can't have any night shades

Starting point is 00:36:16 because that may fuel their autoimmune condition and they have thyroid autoimmunity. And so now... So yeah, they keep... Now they're in the corner of the eye. All these dietary restrictions and no one's ever given the context of saying, community. And so now, so yeah, they keep, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they can, they all of supplemental support, so try to find the minimum amount of supplemental support and the maximum amount of food you can include in your diet. Well, that just sounds like responsible,

Starting point is 00:36:49 doctorate. Right. Yeah. I got a question for you. You're a integrity. We've had a couple guests on the show who eat a carnivore diet. And I've seen this all over social media now

Starting point is 00:37:00 where people literally only eat meat, no vegetables, no fruits, no nuts, no nothing, and they get improvements in health. Now I don't think it's because the diet is a healthy diet. I personally think they have immune issues with lots of different foods or maybe some other gut stuff. What do you think is going on? Am I, do you think I'm on the right track?

Starting point is 00:37:22 Or do you think that there's something to the carnivore diet? Yeah, I think the carnivore diet is an untenable dietary recommendation to make. In the long term, I'm open to it as a short term diet to allow one to give the gut a chance to heal, to reduce the consumption of some of these food subs that may be more noxious to the gut. And it does seem that plant matter can more noxious to the gut. And it does seem that plant matter can be noxious

Starting point is 00:37:48 to the gut. There are compounds and plants, perhaps more so than any other type of food that are noxious or can be noxious to the gut. Like what are some of these compounds? Well, you have things like like lectins and sapanins and then even things that aren't designed by the plant to be

Starting point is 00:38:05 noxious can irritate people with sensitive guts, like those with SIBO and IBS and FODMAPs. So I think if you improve someone's gut health, then they won't need the kind of or diet in the long term. And if you look at the anthropological data, the best study I know of that was a worldwide assessment of 100 gatherer diets did find that yes, maybe 50 is highest, 60% of calories came from animal products, but that's 50 to 60%. Not 100%?

Starting point is 00:38:39 Not 100%. Now, I'm also open to the occasional exception, the 1% of the population that may have such progressed immune problems that they can't eat anything else. But I would be suspicious if someone like that may have something akin, well, firstly, foundationally, make sure they don't have something like SIBO, H. Pylori, dysbiosis, and just aren't in need of a gut healing protocol. Second to that, an FMT, I think, may be very helpful for someone who has gone through

Starting point is 00:39:10 and not responded fully to all the other foundational therapies, so not putting the FMT first, putting that more toward the end of the list, or undergoing treatment for mass-lifation syndrome where people have very, very overselales immune systems and may need direct immune therapy or even using something like Helmet therapy, which is more experimental. Oh, that's where people give themselves parasites and show. I mean, it's much more experimental, but if we're looking at someone who can only eat meat,

Starting point is 00:39:40 something is wrong there. Right. And so something is in need of rectification. And so that's where these other therapies I think would be good to look at. Is the Helmest therapy, is that becoming more of a thing now? I read a book on that maybe three or four years ago. And it was really fascinating.

Starting point is 00:39:57 And the people that they were doing it were people with really bad, like Crohn's disease, like really, really bad. You don't do this if you're just a little bit below. Yeah, is there new, is there new science coming out on this? And this, so for the audience, it doesn't know what I'm talking about. This is where they give people, they literally give them parasites. And through that process,

Starting point is 00:40:17 we should clarify that term though, because there are things that may have been stereotypically labeled as parasites, but they may not actually be parasitic. Okay, interesting, because we're noticing that some of these worms, and worms are really the life form and question here, they may have developed a symbionic relationship with the host, not dissimilar to some bacteria, where they cause a localized immunosuppression so that they can live, but we may have evolved requiring some degree of immunosuppression in the gut to prevent

Starting point is 00:40:54 from releasing all some immunosuppression. So they may not be quote unquote, they may not function as parasites. They may be things that we used to label as parasites. That's interesting. But they may not be better classified as symbiotes. Yeah. Well, we need them.

Starting point is 00:41:07 In other words, so when, what's, is there any new research on this to show that it's, you know, there's not a ton of research here because as you can imagine, the ability to get approval for these studies is, is, is, you gotta go to Mexico. Yeah. But we, we did have a, I want to, I want to, I'm blank on his name now. We interviewed three Worm specialists on our podcast. And there was a researcher from Duke, William, got some blank on his name, William Parker

Starting point is 00:41:38 from Duke. And he did what I thought was one of the more interesting studies where they did a assessment of patients who are self-treating with worms. And they did find that there is a documentable clinical effect for these people. But it's challenging because there are different types of worms, just like there are different types of probiotics. We interviewed another, I guess you could say, worm specialist. Aaron, I'm sorry, got, Agliety was his last name. Sorry, we have that somebody feeling my pockets.

Starting point is 00:42:11 Agliety was, I think his name was Gary and Agliety, and he's in Mexico, and he's very passionate about worm therapy, but also very passionate that worms are as individualist people. And so how we use those is fairly individualized. So there's a lot here to learn, and I don't profess to know everything because there's not a lot of clinical literature to pull from. I have had a handful of patients who have elected to do their own self-experimentation because unfortunately, where the hell do they get the worms?

Starting point is 00:42:43 I can't advise anyone to do anything because of the legal environment. Yeah, local bait store. Yeah. So there are two places you can obtain HDC through a website known as biome restoration. And you can, Wow, you can buy worms online.

Starting point is 00:43:00 I've actually done two inoculations myself. Wait a minute, hold on a second. Rewind. You bought worms online and ate them. Yeah, do they come? It's very similar to a probiotic. I'm sorry. Nancy O'Hara is a pediatrician. We also had on our podcast, who I thought gave the best iteration of clinical guidelines. And she uses these in her in her pediatric practice and she sees about a 50% response rate with 50% in us alike population. So you took so you took these? What happened to you? Now the first time I took them I took a dose that was probably higher than they should have and I

Starting point is 00:43:36 didn't understand all the nuance until I had a chance to interview Dr. O'Hara who and this is why it's important not to talk in a topic that you don't have clinical for many years. But I wasn't advising anyone on this. I always do my own self-experimentation. But you start people with a lower dose and gradually stare steps up. I did third units of the HTC Helmance, it's a medical term for worm. And what can happen if you take too high of a dose or you have an immune system that's very ramped up,

Starting point is 00:44:11 is you can have a histamine reaction when you first take it. Oh, you get that allergic reaction? And so I had irritability and brain fog and fatigue. Now I took an antihistamine and I took an adivil that went away within 10 minutes and never came back since. I Don't really have a lot of symptoms. You know, I have little things that we all deal with but nothing

Starting point is 00:44:33 Nothing that I felt I felt like it was a good gauge to say this is working or this is not working. So I End up doing two inoculations and then there was other things I wanted to experiment with. So I jumped ship. I about six months ago did one additional inoculation of 10 units and I felt nothing. I felt no histamine response. But according to Dr. O'Hara, those who have the most wound up immune systems tend to have the most histamine reactions out of the gate. So without getting too far afield into an area of therapy that isn't really going to provide people much relief. I think there's something interesting there and there's these other therapies for people who actually can only tolerate meat. I would say an FMT working with a provider that can guide you through Helmynthic therapy or mass electiv treatments, which essentially start with over the counter

Starting point is 00:45:25 into histamine agents, can be very helpful. But this is going to a class of people that is the vast minority. There's a lot more entry-level steps that will give people quite a bit of benefit. Wow, my kid. Good. How often do you get questions about, like, kids? Like raising kids today with all the processed foods and sugar and the shit that we have out there? Do you get a lot of parents that ask you like, what am I supposed to feed my kid?

Starting point is 00:45:50 I don't get as many parents asking with their feed their kids as I do parents saying I have a child with IBS, I have a child with behavioral issues. And for those children, the same things that happen to adults happen to children. One of the things that I've seen happen with children that's different than in adults is, and I see this in a population of children with behavioral disorders where their parents read about the gaps diet. Have you heard of that? So essentially the gaps diet is a diet that's very heavy and for method foods. It's gut and psychology syndrome, I believe it stands for.

Starting point is 00:46:30 Natasha Campbell, I believe, is the author. And it's a healthy diet, it's like a paleo diet combined with a lot of fermented foods. And that can be very helpful for some people. However, in fermented foods, you have de-lactate, D&L lactate, which are these compounds that are a byproduct of bacterial fermentation. Children have a much more difficult time metabolizing D&L lactate than adults do. Why is that relevant? Because de-lactate, when it builds up, can cause brain fog, irritability, alterations of mood. And if you combine that with someone who also has small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which will itself, we think, release, DL lactate, then you can fall into the syndrome of these

Starting point is 00:47:16 kids just being saturated in these compounds that can cause irritability and brain fog and tantrums and what have you. So by getting them off of fermented foods, and if they also have it treating their dysbiosis and or bacterial overgrowth, we've seen some pretty remarkable improvements in behaviors in some of these children. Yeah, I was gonna say,

Starting point is 00:47:35 like parents bring in their kids in and thinking, oh, they have ADHD, change their diet, gets better, it goes away, stuff like that. Well, sometimes what happens is it gets better for a little while, and then it starts to get worse. Because at first, if they're using the gap diets specifically, because at first, I think the probiotics in the gap diet help to support and correct any dysbiosis. But then they hit this, the other part of the U, and then it's threshold where they get

Starting point is 00:48:00 too much of that. And now they start building up this DL lactate and probably also histamine and now they're just saturated and then need to stop the intake of that for a while and let these things drain out of their system. Whoa. What is the newest, what is it, some of the cutting edge research coming up? Because the last thing that I read that was really mind blowing to me was it's all the, all those research coming out on how our gut health effects are mental state.

Starting point is 00:48:26 And then they discovered that there's basically a direct connection between the gut and the brain, whereas we thought that it was always separated by the blood brain barrier. But I guess there's a direct highway now through the lymphatic system. What is some of the newest research coming out? What is it looking like? Well, I mean, I can't say that I'm on the forefront of every nuance there because there's an important clarifying remark to make even in that regard,

Starting point is 00:48:51 which is there's a difference between clinical studies that exhibits some kind of gut brain connection and mechanistic findings. Does that kind of make sense? Explain, so we can see that there's a connection, it doesn't mean that it actually... Yeah, so it's one thing to be able to say that when someone has this type of bacterial overgrowth, we see an expression change in this pathway in the brain, or we see an upregulation of this gene transcription, or we see more of this compound being released, that's probably

Starting point is 00:49:26 the most cutting edge, which is just starting to piece together some of these mechanisms, meaning when this is going on in the gut, counterpoint, what is happening in the brain? That I'm not up to snow bond because I'm looking at, here we have a group of patients with IBS who also had depression and we treated them with this and here is what happened. And this is where I focus on because I've learned that as interesting as these mechanistic observations are and as important as they are for advancing the science, they don't give me anything to do differently tomorrow in the clinic.

Starting point is 00:50:02 And I would also caution that if you do too much treatment, drawing inferences from what we see in mechanism studies, the probability that you may hurt someone is high. Because until we've run that experiment in humans, we don't know what's going to happen. And I think people with IBS or other gut issues who are given lots of prebiotics or high prebiotic diets because in theory

Starting point is 00:50:25 that should have helped them. And then the majority of patients that tends to flare them is a glaring example. I'm one of those, like you don't say, oh, we eat lots of prebiotics with which of the starches and stuff that feed us. We talked about last time I was here, we talked about that. Yeah, and you eat, and I'll eat that,

Starting point is 00:50:39 and that'll jack me up. Right, exactly. So that's why, you know, it's, I get it as a patient, it's a triton, say, oh my God, there was more of this compound that's anti-inflammatory, like there are when you eat pre-baths. I'm going to go out and do that. And I've had plenty of patients who have gone out and done that, and they've felt terrible after doing so.

Starting point is 00:50:58 There are some patients that will be helpful for, but the point I'm making is we want to look at human clinical trials or at least outcome studies before we start intervening. Now to the point of intervening, I have seen low histamine diets be very helpful for people with otherwise non-responsive neurological symptoms. Brain fog, including insomnia, word search, irritability, fatigue, all our symptoms of many, but of histamine overload. And what's, what can be problematic there is sometimes people inadvertently go on to a higher histamine diet when they go paleo, especially if they go paleo low carb. What's that from all the highest I mean, containing foods like avocado, tuna, any kind

Starting point is 00:51:48 of jerky, spinach, kombucha, anything fermented, cured meats, right? So it's possible that you could be eating a lot of this. And in fact, I had a period where it sounds like Sal's done. Oh, man. I had a period where I was having brain fog and irritability for no reason. And I just remember, I've been sitting at my desk on a beautiful sunny day and all of a sudden, like half an hour after I eat, I feel irritable

Starting point is 00:52:14 and fatigued and foggy. And I'm just saying, what the heck is going on? Right, I had this morning, I had two eggs, avocado, you know, sourcrow, and then I just was sipping on a kombucha. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was just saturated myself in histamine because every meal had a high histamine food. So that's one thing that can be very effective.

Starting point is 00:52:36 It only takes a week or less to run a low histamine diet experiment. And by the way, in healthy, good, healthy you, we talk about the low histamine diet and we also link to a low histamine diet guide. So we have we have basis covered there for an easy do this for one week. If you if you feel better than just be mindful to restrict or reduce your dietary histamine. It doesn't mean you have to be crazy. You can never have any histamine. It's just like pouring water into a sink. You can't pour the water in faster than the sink and drain.

Starting point is 00:53:04 So you can't eat more hist in faster than the sink can drain. So you can't eat more histamine than your body can clear. What about a histamine, what about an antihistamine, would that benefit somebody in that particular situation like if they took like claritane or? And by the way, I'm saying this

Starting point is 00:53:16 is someone who's been a little bit histamine sensitive sipping on a kombucha, right? Oh yeah, I was just gonna say you're drinking our brew doctor right now and how often would you recommend somebody like drink something like that? Cause I know you can overdo that too, I see. What's that?

Starting point is 00:53:30 So I used to eat a high histamine food at every meal. And when I took a dietary assessment of what I was eating, I discovered that I was eating a high histamine food at every meal cause it's kinda like the lazy man's paleo, right tuna, avocado, cured meats, jerky, spinach. Yeah. So now I just simply try to not do that. It was literally all I had to do.

Starting point is 00:53:51 There was no complicated math involved, and that made a huge difference. So everyone will have to find their own threshold. Also, your intestinal lining secreates enzymes that help you break down histamine. So the healthier you're gut, the better you are at metabolizing histamine. So as to your earlier or our earlier point, if you improve someone's gut health, they'll have less dietary restrictions that they'll have to worry about.

Starting point is 00:54:16 But regarding histamine specifically, I think the easiest way to figure that out is just have someone do a low histamine diet for a week and then do every introduction to see where their threshold is. But in the context of also working through a broader program to improve their gut health, because if you have an active inflammatory burden in your intestines that's damaging your villi, that's to create the enzymes that help you break down histamine, you're never going to be able to eat that much histamine until you get rid of that inflammatory factor, damaging your intestines, lowering your ability to break down histamine, you're never going to be able to eat that much histamine until you get rid of that inflammatory factor, damaging your intestines, lowering your ability to break down histamine. So that's seem like a really complicated answer to maybe not drink a kombucha every single

Starting point is 00:54:53 day. Or not just not have it. But it would come back to the brain thing. There's also been one meta-analysis. Meta-analysis is essentially one study that summarizes the results of the existing clinical trials, very, very high level scientific evidence that found that probiotics have a measurable positive impact on both anxiety and depression. So these are the types of things that I think are important.

Starting point is 00:55:20 Looking at the mechanism is very interesting, but that's for researchers to then say, okay, here's the consistent relationship that we're seeing. And a way we could intervene is by then setting up a clinical trial, giving an agent that lowers this or increases that or modulates this, then they have the clinical trial. And if that clinical trial works, someone like me is watching the clinical trial outcomes and saying, ah, now we can bring this into the clinic and use them. What about the histamine blocker or histamine, and histamine drugs I asked earlier, would that help in that particular situation?

Starting point is 00:55:52 And so yes, they may, they wouldn't be the first place I would go because again, someone may just be eating too much dietary histamine. If someone has something like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, or leaky gut, or damaged to their gut, then that may be causing them to not do a good job of clearing it themselves. But as we go on the continuum of people with mild health conditions toward more severe, some people may need ongoing antihistamine medications like satirazine or lyratidine, antihistamine medications like satirazine or lyratidine, like benedrial zirtec, things like that. And that's when I mentioned mass-activation syndrome earlier for some of these patients who

Starting point is 00:56:40 are exquisitely sensitive, then they may need to work with a specialist of which we've had on two times no Dr. Lawrenceferin, who is a pioneer in this work, who would essentially build for them a custom protocol of either anti-histamine agents, which can be over the counter, or mass cell active ate, sorry, mass cell stabilizing agents, which are mostly prescription, that can help calm down their over-cell immune system. So yes, someone could start with an easy protocol of just experimenting with an over-the-counter antihistamine, and that may help them. But I would do that only in the context of first trying

Starting point is 00:57:12 to improve your gut health more broadly. And then there are protocols that have been developed for how to use these antihistamines in a more precise manner in the longer term, if someone still has these immune type reactions every time they eat or just kind of all the time. Yeah, otherwise it's a band-aid, right? If you don't fix the root, then it's just a band-aid. And some people will need to band it.

Starting point is 00:57:34 Even after fixing the root, they'll need to band-aid, but and that's okay. That's the other thing that sometimes throws people a challenge where they feel better on a drug, but philosophically, they don't want to be on a drug. But if you've addressed the root, there are some people that will need that additional support. And for some people, you just have to say,

Starting point is 00:57:53 okay, I'm okay with it, and not prevent yourself from undergoing a treatment that may help you, even though, or just because you have this philosophical preference, not to ever use it. Of course, of course, one of the best things I've ever done more recently for the health of my gut is I do a prolonged fast every month now.

Starting point is 00:58:11 I do a 48 or same to our fast. And it's one of the best things I've ever done personally for myself. Why is that helping me so much? And have you used fasting with your patients? And what seems to be the deal with that? Is it just because it gives me a break. The way I figure it is, I'm killing off old cells, stem cells get stimulated when I

Starting point is 00:58:30 refeed those stem cells, get turned into new cells which tend to be less autoimmune or less prone to be autoimmune, but that's just my own speculation. I'm sure there's a degree of that happening. And I don't know if we know what one mechanism predominates, the benefit that is derived from fasting, but they're probably multi-fold. And I should mention, just I want to try to give the list in the context here, as part of step one in the healthy, healthy, healthy,

Starting point is 00:58:59 you protocol, we talk about meal frequency and fasting. Because that would be a foundational issue, right? Just like you said, you derive huge benefit from periodic fasting. So before we have someone do, let's say, herbal antimicrobials to kill SIBO, let's make sure that's not just a lack of fasting. Let's hold them back.

Starting point is 00:59:15 We hear oversaturating yourself all the time. How it's just back off a little bit? Exactly. Now on the other side of the coin, some people need to eat more frequent meals, right? Because some people fast too much and they start getting irritable and they start being fatigued and not sleeping well and having insomnia because they're drinking a ton of caffeine

Starting point is 00:59:29 and they're not and they're fasting a ton. So there's a balance to be struck. But we do have one clinical trial and I be it may not be a clinical trial, maybe more so an observation, but we have documented evidence showing a favorable impact with fasting and IBS and an IBD. And we have data showing because there's the question embedded in this topic, which is, doesn't skipping a meal, damage or metabolism. And the majority of the data has found no impact on metabolism, but some of the data suggest a slight benefit. So if you look at all the data at large,

Starting point is 01:00:04 the majority of the data show a negligible benefit. There are some studies showing a metabolic benefit. So we can say for your metabolism, fasting is neutral to beneficial, but it does not seem to be supported that it's detrimental. But why it works is likely, like you said, stimulation of the apoptosis

Starting point is 01:00:19 and stem cell stimulation, there's also likely a partial mechanism of not being exposed to food stuff that may be irritating your gut. It's like giving it a break. Right, giving it a break. Those are probably the two predominant. You may also make the argument that if someone has something like a fungal or a bacterial overgrowth, you're depriving those, the food they need to proliferate. That could be another argument. A fourth could be that fasting stimulates motility,

Starting point is 01:00:48 which helps sweep out bacterial and fungal overgrowth. Simulates this, essentially, this parasol-tick wave, known as a migratory motor complex, where the intestines contract, and as they contract, it just kind of sweeps all of any of the leftover debris. This is probably why the first meal after a long fast, you get the, I mean, basically diarrhea. It's like, comes out real quick.

Starting point is 01:01:11 Do we consider the digestive process an actual stress on the body? Do we consider that or no? That's a good question. Because the reason why I asked that is, I feel like it's so much simpler than that. When you look at all the systems of the body, if you're constantly stressing it all the time, it's constantly having to work, then it would be the most obvious thing to me to give it a break every once in a while, just like every other system of the body for it to be most optimal. Yeah, no, good question. I had never really thought about is digestion the stressor, but yeah, I would think it's a healthy stressor, just like exercise, or even breathing, right?

Starting point is 01:01:47 The oxidation is a byproduct of breathing. Oxygen can be, for lack of a better term and flammatory because it's oxidizing. So yeah, and we know that you need to burn more calories when you digest food because of the energy that is utilized. So yeah, I guess you could make the argument that digestion is a stressor. If someone's gut is overly stressed,

Starting point is 01:02:10 you can take some stress off of the gut by fasting. Which seems to me that in the day and age that we live in is more common than not because we are most American. Yeah, nobody fast. Right, most Americans are over-consuming and sitting down and having food delivered to them and not you know I'm saying I just feel like it seems that simple to me that that would be that beneficial Tendon especially the bodybuilding community because this was a tough pill for me to swallow initially because I came

Starting point is 01:02:36 I don't want to say it came from a bodybuilding background, but that's where in my you come from the to eat every two hours I eat every two to three hours kind of camp, which worked very well for me, but I think when I was going through my gut problems, if I knew about fasting and some of these other things, I would have been able to heal so much more quickly. Right, right, 100% agree. What if you look at the book right now, okay? What is the most powerful,

Starting point is 01:02:59 if I had to pick one chapter in that book, what do you think is the most powerful and impactful chapter you have in your book? Jeez. That's like asking to choose your kids. Like, it's kiddie right? I know it's full of all kinds of stuff, but think from a practical standpoint, when you are riding it,

Starting point is 01:03:14 what do you feel like everybody needs to read this piece right here? Well, let me answer that with like maybe three, I'm gonna break it down to that one. That's fine, I wanna see. That's fine. So if someone is still working on their diet, read the chapter on diet.

Starting point is 01:03:30 If someone's already done paleo, and they've already maybe done low fob map, then I would read the chapter on step two, which so step one is all on diet. Step two are the therapies that you do after diet like probiotics and enzymes. And if someone's already diet, like probiotics and enzymes. And if someone's already done diet and probiotics, then I would read the chapter on step three,

Starting point is 01:03:50 which is the next escalation of therapy, which are antimicrobial therapies to help correct any kind of dysbiosis. So it's even written in your opinion chronologically for how someone should actually go about it? No, exactly. I mean, the whole book, you know, first we go through explaining all these things. Like, if you haven't heard of these diets, here they are. If you haven't heard of probiotics, here they are. If you haven't heard of antimicrobials, here they are.

Starting point is 01:04:12 Here's what they do. Here's how they can help. And then we organize all at the end into this action plan called the Great Enate. And it's eight steps, but not everyone has to go through all eight. Got it. But let's say you're in generally good health, but you're a little bit bloated, right?

Starting point is 01:04:28 You may only need to go through step one, and then you go right to maintenance, which is step six. Got it. Right? But if someone has very progressed IBS, they may have to go through step one, step two, step three, step four, step five, and then into maintenance, which is six. So yeah, it's meant to be a book that can help someone with mild symptoms all the way through severe,

Starting point is 01:04:49 and it steers you along the process. So not everyone does all A, because that would be wasteful. For you would be wasteful, if you're doing the same amount of stuff as someone with severe colitis. Right, right. So it's individualized where we check in with you at the end of each step and we say, okay, if you're feeling this way, go here, if you're feeling that way, go there.

Starting point is 01:05:07 So, now, when you play on attaching, like, coaching and like, online sort of, uh, accountability through this book is like, this book is the vessel that kind of opens that up. That's a great, uh, great question. No, because I don't, I do not have the time of the bandwidth to do that. I know that there's a number of health coaches and even doctors who are now using this book with their patients, which is pretty awesome to be able to say. We do have a forum on our website for every step of the age steps where you can ask questions. And then I think at some point, but it's a year or two away, I'll probably roll out a clinical training course for

Starting point is 01:05:48 doctors and healthcare providers to be able to use this work with people. But yeah, I'd love to have that accountability piece. But the next thing I want to tackle is trying to get a few more research studies published showing the validity of some of the approach that's recommended in the book. So, no, I kind of think I know the answer, but I would like to hear you articulate it. Do you believe that it's important

Starting point is 01:06:13 that somebody learns all this information even if you feel 100% healthy? I've got no issues, I feel fine. I eat the way I want to eat, and I don't have any problems. I think this book is one that someone in that position, that fortunate position, could read and it could give them some idealist to strive for if they wanted to be preventative in nature, yes. But I make that recommendation very cautiously because I would hate to take someone who is healthy and then pull them into this sickness of health and

Starting point is 01:06:47 doctrination and just and just put that negative into their psyche. This book will not do that because this book was written to be empowering rather than fear mongering. So that's I would say if you were someone who is healthy, I'd be very cautious with what you read because the last thing you need to do is figure yourself into feeling like you're not sick when you are, and that happens more than you would think, right? So, that's why I make that very careful answer is because I hate to see a healthy person think that they were sick even when they really were. Right, because I just like to think that there's probably people out there that feel fine.

Starting point is 01:07:22 I mean, I think of myself when I was 25, like I would have loved to have met you back when I was 25 years old. But if you would have asked me, I would have said, I'm fine. And I was eating jack in the box every once in a while. I hardly ever ate any vegetables. I didn't eat a lot of fermented foods because I didn't understand. I didn't really understand the importance of that. And I think understanding that, even if I didn't have problems,

Starting point is 01:07:44 would have kind of set me under the right track earlier on as far as better food choices and things. And exactly that in the sense that I also wouldn't want to make you someone who's now a health nut. So we go out to a restaurant and you ask the waiter, was that cooked in a Teflon pan? None for me. I wouldn't want to turn you into that. And again, I'm not saying that, you know, it's healthy to use Teflon, but you want to be discerning in the way we challenge. There's bigger fucking rocks.

Starting point is 01:08:14 There's bigger fucking rocks. It's like, I tell people the same thing when they ask us detailed questions about supplements. It's like, oh, if I take this at this time, this is like, bro, you're not even fucking paying attention to what you're eating the rest of the day and you're asking me about some supplements, gonna give you one percent more of the edge. It's like, let's handle the big rocks first and I think that's one of the things that we all connected when we all first met and what we become friends is I think you're very responsible with the information that you provide, like what we try and do too, is that, listen,

Starting point is 01:08:41 I'm not saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing, it's just that there's probably other things that you should probably be putting a lot more effort into before you're worried about that. Pick your battles. Right. Exactly. What are some other not so common issues that people have that can be related to poor gut? Because obviously if you have constipation, bloating, diarrhea, anything that has to do with that, people, you know, know, okay, my gut is off.

Starting point is 01:09:05 What are some other symptoms that can be related to your gut that people don't necessarily realize? That's a really important question because you can have a non-digestive symptom that's caused by a digestive problem. That was actually me. I had an amoeba, but I did not have diarrhea or bloating or abdominal pain. All I had was fatigue, very bad insomnia, brain fog, and I was feeling cold often. So you can have a problem that gut that manifests solely as pimples and rashes, or solely as

Starting point is 01:09:43 insomnia, or solely as fatigue, or solely as brain fog, or solely as irrit rashes or solely as insomnia or solely as fatigue or solely as brain fog or solely as irritability or solely as joint pain or solely as hypothyroid like symptoms. It wouldn't be saying it's hypothyroidism I think would be a little bit of a stretch, but there's definitely especially a sebo thyroid in an hpilory thyroid connection. So it's definitely, especially a SIBO thyroid, in an H. Pylori thyroid connection. So it's definitely possible. And we have, at very least, observations,

Starting point is 01:10:10 if not clinical treatment data, showing that treating these imbalances in the gut will improve the skin, the joints, the brain fog, the thyroid. So I don't say these things lightly. Again, being careful in the language that we use. But we do know that it is very possible to have no Digestive symptoms, but your symptoms are being caused by a problem in the gut. Yeah, and it can be a lot of things a lot of it

Starting point is 01:10:34 I mean it can be a wide array of symptoms. Yeah, that's what makes it difficult old shit, man I'm glad you wrote this book. Yeah, we've been recommending it to people and how's the response been so far? It's been awesome. I mean people are literally sending in testimony I don't want to say testimonies, but just like thank yous on Instagram. I Haven't pooped normally in 10 years. This is the first time I've been pooping normally. Oh, wow like literally That's a big deal. It is a big yeah. Yeah, like you Another gal I owe you my life. Yeah. And so it's really cool to never have met these people, because I see that kind of thing in the clinic,

Starting point is 01:11:09 which is great, but to have never even had met someone. Right, to be doing it all over the world now has got to be pretty cool. It's a really cool feeling. Yeah. Well, and I'm really excited just to those, oh, everyone that's listening to, I already tied Mike down that we're gonna start having him,

Starting point is 01:11:21 drop in our forum on occasionals. Occasionals. Occasionals. I'm excited forum on occasional occasional occasionally where we're at the library so he'll be in the private forum and we'll set it up to where you guys could ask him some questions, spend about an hour on there to be able to talk to you guys so that's something to look forward to in the future. And the name of the book is Healthy Gut, Healthy You and you can find that anywhere around here. We got Amazon. Amazon.

Starting point is 01:11:47 We'll have links in the, we'll have all kinds of stuff with that. Plus we'll do a nice intro from Mike before we start the show. Excellent. If you want to fight on Instagram, what's your Instagram handle? I believe it's DR Rucho, so DR R U S C I O. Thanks brother. Appreciate having on.

Starting point is 01:12:01 Yeah, thanks for having me guys. Thanks. Always fun. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump Media dot com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps and a ballad, maps performance and maps aesthetic.

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 775: Dr. Michael Ruscio- Healthy Gut, Healthy You

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