Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 855: Flex Wheeler

Episode Date: September 10, 2018

In this episode Sal & Adam speak with legendary bodybuilder Flex Wheeler, arguably one of the best physiques of all time. Although they talk about bodybuilding this episode touches on a variety of hot topics, including suicide, drugs, race relations, etc.  Where did the nickname “Flex” come from? (4:31) The colorful childhood of Flex Wheeler: From growing up poor in a single parent home to being molested at a young age. (7:12) The alter ego he created in his own head. The meaning behind “pulling the trigger.” (11:30)  The rollercoaster ride of 1994. The event that nearly forced him to seek professional help. (16:38) Does his faith keep the voice in his head quiet? How a light is out on a hill to be seen. (20:50) How money doesn’t always make you happy. (25:50) The metaphor of keeping your house clean to reflect the kind of person you are. (31:45) How did he get into bodybuilding? (34:08) Did he simply breath the weights and grow? (37:58) One of the greatest rivalries: Flex vs. Dorian Yates. (39:55) Who was he most competitive against? Get along with best on/off stage? (46:06) What was the greatest beef he remembers? Fights backstage? (48:43) Communicating with the crowd. Did his martial arts background help him with posing? (51:50) Politics and bodybuilding. (54:12) Steroid use then vs. now. What are the differences he sees? (59:13) How if your not first you're last. (1:05:00) Does having a social media presence guarantee success. Your draw. (1:07:30) Behind the scenes talk about Ronnie Coleman. (1:09:40) Synthol and bodybuilding. (1:18:03) Not all drugs are created equal. How you cut your own backyard. (1:26:45) Going back into deep waters. Why he got back on stage after kidney failure. (1:34:25) The human nature of judging people based on assumption. (1:40:53) How he doesn’t see color only the person. Race relations and a person's right to protest. (1:48:00) You can’t judge a book by its cover. The difficulty/double standard of being a police officer. (2:04:10) Do we have more of a power or race problem?(2:11:50) Featured Guest/People Mentioned: Flex Wheeler (officialflexwheeler) Instagram Flex Wheeler YouTube Stan :Rhino" Efferding (@Stanefferding) Instagram Charles Glass (@thecharlesglass) Instagram Chris Cormier (@chriscomer2) Instagram Dorian Yates (@thedorianyates) Instagram Ronnie Colman (@ronniecolman8) Instagram Mark Bell (@marksmaellybell) Instagram Kai Greene (@kaigreene) Instagram Colin Kaepernick (@kapernick7) Twitter Links/Products Mentioned: Everly Well Code MindPump for 15% off any test Synthol Abuse in Bodybuilding Focal Segmental Glomerulosclerosis Would you like to be coached by Sal, Adam & Justin? You can get 30 days of virtual coaching from them for FREE at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Get our newest program, MAPS Split, an expertly programmed and phased muscle building and sculpting program designed to get your body stage ready. This is an advanced program and is not recommended for beginners. Get it at www.mapssplit.com! Get MAPS Prime, MAPS Anywhere, MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, MAPS Aesthetic, the Butt Builder Blueprint, the Sexy Athlete Mod AND KB4A (The MAPS Super Bundle) packaged together at a substantial DISCOUNT at www.mindpumpmedia.com. Make EVERY workout better with MAPS Prime, the only pre-workout you need… it is now available at mindpumpmedia.com Also check out Thrive Market www.thrivemarker.com/mindpump! Thrive Market makes purchasing organic, non-GMO affordable. With prices up to 50% off retail, Thrive Market blows away most conventional, non-organic foods. PLUS, they offer a NO RISK way to get started which includes: 1. One FREE month’s membership 2. $20 Off your first three purchases of $49 or more (That’s $60 off total!) 3. Free shipping on orders of $49 or more You insure your car but do you insure YOU? 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If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salta Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Oh man, it was great having somebody that I used to read about and watch and the bodybuilding magazines and shit. Yeah, very since when I was growing up and all into that stuff. Very, very cool to do this, man. I mean, I've always thought that Flex Wheeler had the, and me personally, what I think is the most amazing, awesome physique ever. Like, I just think the

way his physique was built, it was at 93 or 94, the show. I think in 93 is when he won the Arnold Classic. And that's, I mean, it's widely regarded as one of the best presentations of all time. That's what I believe. When you looked at his waist, to shoulder, to leg, calf, everything ratio, and his conditioning and muscle separation that he had, it's just gorgeous.

It was absolutely amazing to me, and bodybuilding's changed so much, but what a fun conversation. It's just so cool that because we have this platform, I get to meet, you know, I mean, again, this is somebody I looked up to. I used to read all the magazines in the 90s when I was a kid when I first started working out.

And Flex Wheeler's like one of the biggest celebrities to me as a kid, and having a podcast and being able to invite people like him on and get to meet him. And then on the other thing about Flex is there's a lot of controversy around him. And the guy is very open. He's an open book. We ask him about his life. He talks to us about battling with suicide, getting molested as a kid.

He talks about drug abuse, talks about the steroid use, in bodybuilding, talks about competing in the 90s versus today. We even got controversial and talked about some of the recent politics that are going on right now. I mean, I like him. I didn't know him as a person. I respected him as a bodybuilder and as a kind of that celebrity in that world. But now, of course, get to know the guy. Love the guy. Great dude, super open. We had it, is a two hour, over two hour podcast with them, what's so, you know, conversation. Yeah, I did it, and you know, it's,

I mean, it came out the gates pretty quick, but about 30, 40 minutes in, it really turned up a notch, I think, and we got really deep with him and very personal with his life. And I love that he's such an open book. I mean, as an interviewer, nothing's more fun than interviewing somebody who you know is not afraid to just speak his mind. And then it's up to us to ask the right questions.

And I thought we did a pretty good job of navigating him through that. And you're right, we even touched on a little bit of the cappernick stuff that's going on, which it was cool to hear his perspective. And we had a little discussion around that, and you know, with his being a cop in his background, I think that's really cool.

And so that was a great, I mean, the whole thing was just a great conversation. I hope everybody really enjoys it. If you wanna see what the bodybuilding embodied in a physical human, what it's supposed to look like, I guess, go to his Instagram, look at some of his old videos and pictures. His Instagram page is at official Flex Wheeler, and then he just started a YouTube channel where he posts some of his videos,

and you can find that on YouTube, but just Flex Wheeler. And oh, we also mentioned our sponsor Everly Well. We talked about testosterone replacement therapy and testing your testosterone. Of course, Everly Well makes tests that you can do at home for lots of different things, including hormone tests. If you go to EverlyWell.com and use the code MindPump, you'll get 15% off any test, including the testosterone tests,

which are really inexpensive to begin with. Also, before we get into the episode, we have, don't forget to go check out our maps programs. If you go to mapsfitinistproducts.com, you can look at all the different maps programs that we have. They're all designed for different goals. And then we also offer bundles where we combine multiple maps programs and discount them. For example, we have a build your butt bundle, we have a super bundle which is a year of exercise programming, we have a bundle design for people who want to get shredded, we have a bundle design for people who are always on the go and work a lot, lots of different

options, all the information you can find on our site, maps, fitness products, dot com. And without any further ado, it is my pleasure to introduce you to Flex Wheeler. Does everybody call you Flex or can or flex? Mostly flex. Yeah. My old friends who I have no contact with anymore when they try to say, Hey, can I'm like, come on, man, you know, I'm flex. That's like sand magic's name.

You threw on the hey, Julius. That's right. It's crazy. That's true. That's crazy, I like you. Speaking of that, where did the origin of that come from? I mean, was that something that- Was that from bodybuilding or before? No, it was almost, it was pretty much a derogatory comment. I was-

Oh, really? I was just a typical skinny kid, you know, just I graduated, I was in evil 100 pounds when I graduated high school. So I got into bodybuilding, started my career in martial arts and got into bodybuilding later on. And just I guess the typical mom and his complex, you know, just walking around trying to be big.

And guys like, why are you always flexing? Here comes flex again. So it was kind of a negative thing. Oh, wow, shit. Yeah, that's cool though. Yeah, yeah, it caught on. And the first actual bodybuilding, so I did the promoter had a new body.

He goes, I'm a color you flex, I'm like, come on, don't do that. And when I'm in stage, the next flex wheel in the crowd went crazy, I was a little skinny pencil, but it didn't kind of stuck, you know, so I didn't work out, it worked out. One of the things I appreciate that you talk about a lot, and it's something that we share on the show is that

we actually talk about a lot of what drove us into fitness was our insecurities. Yeah. It was exactly that. Being skinny guys, wanting to be bigger. And I know from being in fitness for as long as I have, it's actually more common than you would think. It is.

Even in MMA, you hear about it in martial arts. Either your big brother or somebody was beating your butter just that and other, and you know, you just got into it and now you just want to make everybody pay. Right. Now, you have a very interesting, I followed you quite a bit in the 90s. I was a huge fan of bodybuilding. You were definitely one of my favorites. I referred to you as the probably the greatest uncrowned Mr. Olympia of all time.

Thank you. Thank you. I just got a word at that. Did you really? Yeah. There's a organization on Instagram and a pretty prominent now. We're just following the whole career. So they just did a countdown of the top 10 or top 30 bodybuilders who never won the Mr. Olympia. Second was Kevin.

I thought he would win. Kevin would be my second also. Yeah, yeah. Second was Kevin and I was a first. So yeah, thank you. That's awesome. Yes, it's great to be acknowledged by your peers and especially, you know, people are extremely competitive. I mean, what more do you want? Awesome. Yes, it's great to be acknowledged by your peers and especially, you know, people are extremely

competitive. I mean, what more do you want? You know, I mean, you know, just to be accepted for your color, regardless of what race you are, your color, your sex, or, you know, you care to sleep with, I think the most important thing is, no matter what, we just want to be accepted. Excellent.

Excellent. So for my peers to accept me like that, it's his greatest, better than when in Olympia. Yeah, you're often referred to as one of the most aesthetic pleasing looking bodybuilders of all time. It used to be Frank Zayn, now I think at your name more often, but you have an interesting childhood. You have a very interesting story leading up to bodybuilding. So I want to go back a little bit.

Now you grew up in California, right? Yeah, California Fresno. Fresno. Tell us a little bit about that. You got into martial arts first. How did that happen? What was your child's of like and then eventually had you in the bodybuilding? So yeah, I had a colorful childhood.

Yeah. It was rough. I grew up right around the time that the crypts and the bluts had just formed in Fresno. So you had, based on neighborhoods, you had, you know, cousins and kin folks killing each other, you know, because of that line. It didn't have anything to do with family anymore. So that was rough. I mean, you know, unfortunately, you know, single, you know, parent, you know, just typical American family, you know, sad to say, but single parent and,

you know, my mom tried to do the best she could. We're on welfare. And yeah, the neighborhood was kind of rough. It was just fighting or somebody getting beaten or jumped or something like that was just normal. So me, I was really non-conflict. I was just a quiet kid before I got destroyed by the world and became a new person that I am now, but got it picked on a lot, got beat up on a lot. I think the around age of seven, I got into martial arts, the Recreational Center, Axi was called Ivy, Recreational Center, had a movie in a plate, Bruce Lee, the Dragon. And I just fell in love with it. I just fell in love with it.

I felt this character, I could identify it to it. And ironically, a week later, they started offering martial arts for free. So I'm all in, you know. So I just, I was all in. I was 100% I went to school every day. I could train and I loved it. And I followed with the teacher. Our instructor said, and, you know, I ended up becoming pretty good at it. But on the streets and in school, I still couldn't bring myself

to Harmony one. But in the ring, I would, it's not that I tried to harm anyone. I understood that it was a competition. And I wanted to inflict my will on you. And there was probably some background noise about being beat up all the time on the streets and just wanting to show myself. So funny is the bullies at school in junior high at the time, I was terrified of them. So I would invite them to my school, knowing that I would have to fight them.

And then I would just annihilate them. It was just something would just click. I don't know. And then they would go him to my school knowing that I would have to fight him and then I would just annihilate him. It was just something would just click. I don't know. And then they would go back to school and they would tell so I didn't have to fight anyone at school because the bullies would go around and tell. But I still can bring myself to fight on the street. I remember even my siblings, you know, just as brothers and sisters do would just have a fill day, just beat me up.

Even they were kids would beat me up. And I would just stand there and think, if hit him I'm gonna hurt him or you know if I hit their nose what if I break it or where if I kick him in the ribs you know I might break and that's that was my thought so I couldn't hit in person you know in his streets and finally it just it clicked over I remember my brother Daniel was picking on me as usual and um, something just clicked and um, he said something and I just lit him up from top to bottom and that was the end of, you know, the younger brother became the big brother and um, but I was just wired like that. I just, you know, I embraced it. I just loved it. But, you know, it was, it was a rough childhood, but

you know, my last day, so I was in less than when I was a kid, you know, I was homeless, you know, as I grew up, um, up. I had to wear a second-hand me down. It's just a typical horse story, but at the end of the day, what I found is I wouldn't be any person, any of the person that I am now if I hadn't went to those things. So, and more so than that, everybody's been through something. You talk to somebody who's been through something. You know, you talk to somebody who's been through something, something traumatic. To them, that's the most traumatic thing they've been through. You can't compare it to yours, right?

You know, you can identify what this is, really worse. But for that person who went through it, no, that's the most traumatic thing they went through. So everybody has been through something, okay? So, and I begin to understand that. So now I'm moving forward to where I am now. It's helped me to be the person that I am. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

It wouldn't be that person if you took any. How long did it take you, Flex, to shift your mindset like that? Because I imagine, you know, and I have a, you know, there's a lot of similarities in your story as my story growing up. I grew up in an abuse of home.

We also know what it's like to be on food stamps and welfare. My real father committed suicide when I was seven. So I can totally relate to your story in many ways. And I know I carried a lot of animosity in early years. And it took me a lot of growing before I started to piece that together and almost become grateful for what I went through because it made me into like this piece of iron. I feel like that I wasn't afraid of anything else because of all the shit that I went through. Do you remember that transition for you? Did you also carry a little bit of animosity? Oh, yeah. So one thing I left out, I was suicidal as a kid. First time I tried to commit suicide.

I was 13, 12, 12, and I continued throughout my life and even into my pro career, where I'm winning all these shows and making all this money. And seven story house was my first house I bought on Venice and, you know, hurly in a driveway and I actually did a car a lot. And I think I had a S.O. 500 and a BMW, you know, just kid that didn't have it crap, you know. So, but I'd go out, you know, I remember I'd go out when the honor classic come back home and try to kill myself, you know, just I would, you know, so I was also a police officer in Fresno for a while. So I love guns, I love weapons, you know, I was trained with weapons and you know, my martial artists who I owe

everything to time to wire, you know, he was just a very militant, you know, my martial artists who I owe everything two-time a guire, you know, he was just a very militant, you know, person. He believes in like, you know, adventurous stuff like being able to make your own water out of bad water, you know, taking what he calls a go-back. Have your go-back always ready and your weapons that you, he's one of those type of guys. So he trained you that way in martial art. So I just, I remember, you know, the things that I had to go through and to answer your question, I don't actually know when it clicked because I'm aware that I created this alter ego, not knowing it. This flex wheeler guy, when I got bigger and stronger and all that stuff. So

I didn't really take crap from anyone and I was quick to give it back to him. I wouldn't start it, but I'd be really quick to make it happen. So if you want to make it happen, I'm like, I'm like the weather, he walk outside and it's sunny, take a jacket off. You know, it's cold, put your jacket on. That's the way I was, you know, back then, just whatever, yeah, whatever you want to make happen,

I'm not going to make it happen. But if you want it to, I'm going to instigate it and try to, you know, accelerate as much as possible. So not knowing this kid who got abused a lot, that's where this flex wheeler character came to play. And as I started identifying tonight and actually meeting people globally who was very intunit at type of stuff, they were like, there's a few of you in there. And I'm like, you mean by that.

And then meeting some considerable people, not really friends, but people really close to me like, you know, there's like six of you. And I'm like, half you mean by that. But I would grapple with it. No matter whatever happened to me, rather I agree, which are not, I go back to, you know, to my own whatever and I grapple with my thoughts about that. So right around like my late 20s, it was late for me because I was so wrapped up into trying to be this person to try to be as good as I wouldn't identify anything. So, but I would probably have to say I really, it really clicked with me in my mid 30s.

And I was the last time that I, not last time, but actually one of the closest I ever came to committing suicide. I, you know, I'd been going through my whole childhood. And, you know, the more people know it, the bad thing about it is, you start getting to know it because people think you're faking. I, you're not gonna do it. I wouldn't, that's so, you know,

what it does is it actually spurs you on to do it to prove people wrong, you know, people say, what about your kids? What about, so your thought in that is, the quicker I pull this trick, I won't have to worry about that. So it's, it's trying to force you into doing it. And you're going through all these emotions.

Oh my kids are gonna be looking at my cough and they said, although you realize and you graphically see all of it, don't even wait to make it go away, it's hurry up and pull the trigger. I only have to feel this as long as, I'm here, so hurry up and pull the trigger. So one of the worst times is like,

you know what, I'm tired of this, so and'll put it in pull the trigger. So, one of the worst times, like, you know what? I'm tired of this, so on and so on, this person knows, and I think I'm gonna prove them wrong. I'm gonna prove them wrong, I'm just gonna do it. And for the first time ever, I just heard this weird sound in me like, yeah, go ahead and pull the trigger so you can come be with me. And I'm like, hmm, that's not what I want.

I just want this shit not to happen, I just want this to end. That's not what I want. I just want this shit not to happen. I just want this to end. That's not what I want. And then I realize that's not a way out. It's not a way out. It's a way in that you can never get out. It's a freaking membership that you never counsel at membership, you're a VIP at the worst party ever

and it's not gonna ever, ever, ever stop. I'm like, that's not what I want. I just want this. So what I realize is every day I wake up, I have an opportunity of changing that. And that's when it really started clicking for me. Like, what's wrong with you? What are these problems?

What are these issues and identifying to and and stuff like that? So probably around my mid 30s is when I- Well, did you work through all this? Because when you talk about it, it sounds like a lot of this is yourself. Did you not have to go to therapy or anything like that? I mean, you know, I don't, for me, that just didn't work. And it was probably the people in 94 when I got into my car accident. You know, it was a lot of rift behind that because of who I was and, you know, we thought we're going to assume our sadies and actually, you know,

somebody I met before that Dr. Dre, you. Dre went to a private with him, so he ended up introducing me to his lawyer and she took the case like, yeah, I'll take this pro bono. You're going to own Mercedes, just not another blah, blah, blah, blah, because of how the car broke down. And it came out to find out that Mercedes is one of the most aggressive companies you never sue. I mean, they'll just take you through.

I mean, you can sue the world's voice. How many rose royces are out in the street? Not very many. How many Mercedes? Yeah, tough. So, I mean, I literally had to have, tent put on all my windows, and I don't know how many windows in a house

it was at the time, seven seven story, I had to get rid of my Mercedes because they gave me a new one because they were trying to prove that hey, Mercedes is not safe, so you can't own one. So, Mercedes stressed it out, and I remember hearing about there was like 11, you know, these big bodies,

we used to call them big bodies back in the days, because there was like, so the 11 of these big body Mercedes lined up down a freeway or had it, car accident, and they came within 10 miles of my actual speed, 179. So they came at, you know, 176, and I'm like, these these people to mess around so

What they end up doing is switching around like listen you destroyed our car that you're responsible this that another drop your lawsuit Or else what counters who you and my lord is like after a year they're like we're out of money We can take this wow take it and the joke was they gave me a dollar a check so obviously to finish yeah, so So yeah, that's the first time I went and seen a psychiatrist, because they're like, you need help, you know, this, that, now, because my thoughts came back of killing myself. Here I am, Lennon, you know, a car. A 1994 was 1993 was the best career that I ever had, you know, four pro shows, four pro shows, ranked number two in the world.

Just get from it like mine. Was that when you went Arnold Classic? Yep, yep. That's a lot of people refer to that as the best physique in bodybuilding history, because you're a presentation. That was 93. When I won the Arnold Classic, the Iron Man, the Grand Prix. Yeah, so God, what a rollercoaster then.

So you had to fill in top of the world and then just bottomed out. So all those things came back about I'm checking out. I'm just gonna kill myself. I'm gonna get better. I broke my neck C5C6. I broke my collarbone. My eye was swollen out my head. My ear was ripped off.

I'm like, how do you catch guys who are running 100 miles an hour and you gotta be dead still? And they're gonna keep running 100 miles an hour for months. How do I, so I just, I checked out. So my, you know, lawyer, have me go see a psychiatrist, a psychiatrist and it was just a mistake. I mean, I for the first time I told a person that how was my lesson and all these things. So he set up there for an hour, listen to me, just pour out things I never told another person. And he looked at me like, that stuff happened

in a long time ago. He needed to get over that. And I mean, you know, I was very big then, you know, and I was extremely violent if you pushed me. And I just looked at him like, dude, I'll fuck you up in here. I go, nobody will never know. You know, I will lock this door and beat you.

So I just walked out and I talked to my lawyer body. She goes, you know what? A lot of times people get into that business because of their problems. And she said, what happened is you brought up something or some things that he's never gotten over. And that's what he's telling himself. Just get over it.

Just move on to happen before. So I just was effed up. So at the end of the day, if you go see help, if you go get help, you have to make that decision. I don't care what a person tells you. You need to hear it and then use it, right? So I just kind of just really talked to myself and I still do, because I still have these issues.

So I'm ongoing, you know, trying to counsel myself with the man upstairs who's in control of everything. And I think at the end of the day, that's what gets me through everything. I was just gonna ask you, what is it that keeps pulling you back from that brink that keeps pulling you back to being here?

You've mentioned now a voice and you now mentioned the man upstairs, is it your faith? Yeah, it is. I mean, I was raised that way and that's why it really mess me up when I heard that voice, like yeah come be with me because after all of what 20 something years I'm trying to do this I

thought it was just a way out and it just never hit me that way so I was raised that way I mean my grandmother you know raised me and she was just the most incredible woman I ever met I mean she was born in 1909 so imagine a black woman in 1909 what possibly she's seen. And she always raised me, you know, Kenny, they're just good, they're just bad. Just good people and bad people. She never said color. So I always raised that way.

I didn't see color. I seen good and bad. Now I'm aware that the world sees that, but I just don't, you know. So yeah, I was raised that way. And that's just what kept me rooted. I think that's the main reason why I'm probably still here, because what I've been able to do is a lot of the things I've been through. I've been able to help other people, and I could never, never sit in that room with them. I could never sit in the room with a person

who's been molested or homeless or know what it's like to be hungry, or suicidal, or the diseases that I had, there were disease, kidney transplant, 11 seducing in nine weeks. I would never be able to sit and talk to somebody who's been through that unless I've been through it. So I've really just tried to take everything that I've been through and try to help other people. And come to me.

Because of your faith, you ever think that maybe you were putting this position of, you know, super popular bodybuilder and getting, you know, so lots of people have eyes on you. So that you could be that example. So you're going through those challenges, but you're also someone people could look up to you. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to, I don't like it, you know, because it's rough. I mean, life is rough, right?

But I'm aware that, you know, there's a biblical saying, you know, because it's rough. I mean, life is rough, right? But I'm aware that, you know, there's a biblical saying, you know, a light is put on a hill to be seen. And I get that. If you're, for whatever reason, if people are attracted to you, whether you're a star or a great athlete or a movie star, whatever, you're that light, way up on a hill, people can see you from a far distance. You're put there for a reason. And I think that's the reason we're going to put there. And now a lot of us will take that power that we're given in misuse that I did my whole career. But truly, that's the reason why you, those are gifts. I mean, in a Bible, it says it clearly. Some people have given these gifts, some people have given these. So all of us have our gift.

We all have a gift. It's just how we choose. We just have the right to choose. So 100% I know that for a fact. It doesn't bring me comfort because the reality is you have to go through that. It's still hard, but at least it gives you some purpose. Oh yeah, it does. It does. And it's probably one of the greatest things. It's not the awards I won or any money that I want or anything or crazy things. It's here and someone else that you can help because you know what it's like in that dark place and you know it was a person who just contacted me on the internet. I won't say his name, but it was on Instagram and he just sent me a message about you know he broke up with

his girl, he's a matinee and love-with-her, or she broke up with him and he went to kill himself. And I didn't really pay attention at that message because I got so many messages. I actually had just blurred through it and just forgot about it because I was busy doing other things. And then I remember he sent me another message just saying today's a day and that caught my attention. And then I went back up and read all the messages and I'm like crap, I'm like, you know,

what's going on, how can I help you? He's like, you can't help me. I just wanna let, you know, I just seen your, you know, your London real video that you just did. And you know, you just really spoke to me in his system. You know, I just, I heard his voice, you know, it was your voice. San, don't do it. And I was like, you know, man, call me, call me right now. He goes, no, I'm not going to call you. I'm just some white kid from the Hicktown, but, you know, back ease. I mean, back south and I'm just a nobody. And I said, you know what, I'm just some

black kid from the ghetto, you know, I'm nobody either. Call me. And I was actually what my daughter at the time and he called me. And we decided in Amazing Commissation and very respectful kid, everything he used to front mills cultures, yes sir. No sir, you know, and it just broke my heart. You know, I started crying too and a phone with him. But, you know, he's still here.

And he says, and we stand contact. And he's like, you know, I'm doing okay today And you know today and a good day I'm like today and a good day for me, man This is what I'm going through and I'm like don't think it's ever gonna get better It's gonna go up and down like a byrhythm goes up and down and up and down. You just got to ride it You know, you got to ride in and to this day, you know, he has a home now and he's back working and you know He's really financially, you know pretty well off before this happens. So

Come on, man. It's no money, that's gonna bring that to you. Or when you meet someone and they say, hey, because of this, you went through, I had strength to go through this. And I'm like, and here I am, when I look in a mirror, I see this weak person. You know what I mean? So that empowers me when I hear stories from other people.

Like, if you can affect them like that, I can be most wrong with you. You can't affect yourself that way I can be most wrong with you. You can't affect yourself that way, but yeah. Interesting. A lot of people that have got stories like yourself for myself, trying to feel that void with success and money and women.

And women. Sorry, maybe some guys is, no. No, I'm messing with you. That's a 100 percent true right there. And then there comes a time when you reach that, when you have all of that at your disposal, do you remember that? Do you remember learning those lessons?

I do. I remember I just bought another Mercedes, an SO500, and I was in a car We're driving down I think what's belly Where are we and highly what oh bell air? Yeah, Bell air area and it was me and my training partner Rico and And we're driving and you know got the you know hook to top off and hats flip back because because I was in a day and a day is back then. Rico has always been a leader of our club. Everybody always thought I was because I won and he didn't win and he was still on an amateur, but he was always the leader. He probably wasn't aware of it, but I listened to him,

even I argued, I went back and did, like he had had said and everything but we're driving it and he was always more secure than me you know I remember we all worked at Roxbury famous Roxbury interesting time so he was always very comfortable with himself he was even less off financially than I was you know he drove a old Dotsin 280. So you got to remember, this is like 94. And he's driving in dots in 280Z. So you know, all that is, he was a big boy, so to Carl Leane to one side, because he was so heavy and it was just like, you know, food all over the place, but didn't matter. He pulled up to a girl in a rose voice and just spit out her. I'm like, I couldn't do that. I would have one of my best clothes,

my jewelry sticking out, my top back before I could even feel comfortable. And he was very comfortable and I envied him for that. And a good way. I was like, wow, how can you do it? I just, so what? So what's she got a nice car? Who cares?

Oh, we'd be at the club. He'd spit out the A-list actress. And I'm like, dude, he goes, for, she don't want me to go to the next one. I'm like, so we're driving. And I'm like, Rico, like, money don't make you happy, does it? And he turned at me, he gave me this eerie look and he's like, damn, flex, you finally figuring that out, huh?

I'm like, wow. So, cause I never could go nowhere without, like at least $4,500 in my pocket. And like I said, to even feel comfortable when talking to somebody, I had to have all my accessories because I had no self-esteem, no self-esteem. So I wanted you to see my watch or my car,

whatever, respect that. And then because I own those, maybe re-overrespect me, that was me instead of respect me because of who I am. And besides the person, I am not my status, just because I'm a person, I didn't never have that. So was that low-fest self-esteem that just really bothered me.

And that's when it clicked about my domain crap. Yeah, sometimes when the worst things that can happen to people is they get what they think that they want. And then they get it and they realize, oh, this is not what I thought it would be. And then where do you go from there? Yeah, I think, even when I remember when stock dropped and even recently back in the around 2007, 2010,

we'll real estate just climb it and everything. I was one of the people who lost my house over that crap. And you just, people were worse than me. And I remember another close friend of mine, Stan Effardine, who's extremely, I don't know if you heard of him. Oh yeah, we know it. So not only financially strong he is intelligent

because you went to college for everything. He was just so sane. And he goes, yeah, I remember when that happened. I lost him, I lost a, I won't exaggerate, but it was multiple millions overnight. I don't want to exaggerate, but I'm thinking he said something like 50 or 100 million overnight.

Well, and I'm like, what did you do? And they're like, I got it, went to work the next day. I'm like, what do you mean he goes, well, I worked to get it. I got my back, I asked back in gear and I went back and I worked. And I'm like, but you remember, you had these other people who are multi-millionaires

and people who are killing themselves. So, right, it doesn't make you happy. And I've never been to that status of money or whatever, but it's never made me happy. I mean, it made me worse because then I can go out and buy the things that poured into this big black hole, that's just nothing ever filled,

and it's a huge void, it just sucks everything up that you throw into it. And when you throw these things into it, whatever it is, you only get a realization that you're worse, because that didn't work, that wouldn't work, she didn't work, that card didn't work, whatever. I remember, and it's highly embarrassing, that you're worse, because that didn't work. That wouldn't work. She didn't work. That car didn't work.

Whatever. I remember, and it's highly embarrassing, but I had a seven story house in Venice. In my way of seducing women was having to go through my house. So the first level is where I pull into my car and then you see my cars. So then you walk through the door and it's the first level and these paintings and whatever and you go up the next door and there's bedrooms and bathrooms, you go up the next floor. It's seven levels. So my, this is really embarrassing, but my, my seven, my six level, the seventh level

of the house is my bedroom. So as you go through and you see all these things, it never went past my six level of my house, you know, and that was my way things, it never went past my six level in my house. You know, and that was my way because I didn't feel comfortable who I am. And I remember sometimes if I was honest with a girl, they'd be like, what's wrong? Look at you. Look what you do. How could you? I'm like, I don't see those things. I don't identify the none of those things.

So it's crazy, man. Growing up and watching you in the magazines and competing and all that would have never known you were this deep of an individual, would have never known any of this stuff. You wrote a book talking about a lot of this. Yeah, and I've been off in, like, ten full that's happened since the book and people like, write another one, I'm not sure if I can handle that, you know, right? Because it was really rough to write that book. I even remember my ghost writer who was like a very successful writer in New York. She would have to take breaks like you know what,

I'll call you in a couple of weeks. Yeah, she just so but you know what, that's what I meant by this alter ego that I created. I found that at a young age that when people find out whatever your weakness is, where would you a scared person or intimidated person or whatever, they're going to use it against you. So I remember being on stage and understanding that. So I was terrified every time I went on stage, even if I knew I was competing against guys that just beat the next week. That means shit.

They can beat you this week. I'd be terrified. So, and being terrified, I would actually project as different image that was never me, but it worked So if I was on stays and I was standing next to a guy at tap him on his shoulder Maybe show my legs like put Marmer on him and so I'm so it probably looks like I'm being arrogant like my legs are begging in yours But my analogy was if I put Marmer on him I just took your attention off of me and put it on him Right and if I'm shaking my legs and then I point at yours, my attention just switched. That's

what I'm thinking I'm doing because that's how uncomfortable I am about it. But I just knew that I had to put off this different error about myself because if people understood that I was a clear person, then they're gonna look at him like what's wrong and it's tearing to you deeper. You know, let me give you an analogy. It's like you walk into this house and the house is extremely clean, but it smells like shit. You're gonna sit there and just dig for it. What is?

If you walk into a house and it's mediocre clean and it just smells brilliant, you're gonna sit down and relax. Mm-hmm. So, that's my understanding on stage. If I'm on stage, I'm like, people on the fuck's hand. No matter what I looked like, if I stand up to I look brilliant,

like I own a place like, give me a once over, like, all right, what everybody else looks like. That's just the way we are as people. And that's what I figured out. And wildly as a sound, I mean, just being as unaware that I was doing it, that's what was going on,

that's what I was trying to project. Let's talk about bodybuilding for a second, we're going to change gears a little bit, and the 90s today is now considered by bodybuilding fans as one of the greatest decades of bodybuilding. They talk about the golden era being the 70s, but the bodybuilders of the 90s, they talk about them being just the conditioning, the size, the competition, it was super intense. Let's talk about that for a second. What was that like? How did you get into bodybuilding?

And then what was that like? Because you came out the gates and just won everything that you touched right out the gates. Yeah, I don't know what had happened. I mean, that's nothing at mind doing. That's the man upstairs. Were you training with Charles Glass at the time? I was training at Charles Glass at the time in Rico.

Rico and sometimes Chris Cormier, my first pro. So actually, yeah, I was training with Charles Glass, Rico and Chris Cormier as an amateur going into that show and then turning pro. So I don't know, man. I have no idea how that happened. I train hard like other people. I was just a gift that the man upstairs gave me,

and I trained and put some, a lot of effort into it, and I was blessed to do it, but my key words, I was blessed to do it. That's like you saying boats. Come on, I have a to do it. You know, that's just, that's like you saying boats. Come on, that guy, I mean. Well, I have a pretty good guess though. I think that someone like you has found a found away, whether you subconsciously did it or not,

but found a way to channel all the shit that you dealt with growing up and you found a way to isolate yourself and just one, and I have the very similar thing. I've learned to apply that to my work have the very similar thing. I've learned to apply that to my work ethic at work and business. I've been able to, no matter how dark or bad it is outside, you know, the darker it becomes, actually the better I would be at business. You strike me as somebody like that.

Yeah, that's a perfect example because I always tried to create my world as this harsh world environment mentally. But I could do into this world and create and go through all kind of hell, I could train my ass off. I can diet and I created this all to world where this is normal. To be unhappy, eating this crap food, going into gym, training every day, this is effing normal.

Those people out there don't get it. They're effing wickles. I mean, they're going to the movies and eating ice cream, they're effed up, they're backwards. So I had to reverse everything, but I was very comfortable in that world, and I knew I did my best at doing that. And you know, you're right by saying you can sing a loud and just home in. I mean, that came from my martial arts. It's an individual sport. And I think most every sports are individual. And together you make it a bigger or a team effort, but you're on, you know, I was able to go through it

and I always identified that these harsh environments, like I'm used to this. I even used to still this saying from this greater athlete, I'm built for this, you know, and I was a great, you know, I don't know if you guys know who that was, but damn, I just thought I forgot his name, but I'm graduated UCLA football player. Oh, baseball player. Sorry, baseball player. Back when it was a race show to be, he was a first great baseball player. What's his name? I'm blowing it for him. Yeah, you all know you're, I should know this often. I can't, and it's at the tip

of my tongue right now. And, you know, I can't and it's at the tip of my tongue right now and you know I didn't know it but he graduated from UCLA a played football and rent track But he was a baseball player. He just did a great movie bottom a few years ago Yes, and that's why it's at the tip of my tongue right now. It's what's it? 54 was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah My time right now, bro. I'm sorry. I'm the sports guy too. That should be we both embarrassed Jackie Jackie Robinson. Yes, and I was the same. I'm built for I'm the sports guy too. We both embarrassed Jackie. Jackie Robinson. Yeah, and I was just saying, I'm built for this. He endured all of this for a bigger reason,

and I'm nowhere near like him or his mental, but the things that I went to like, yeah, I went to worse. Now, you are a skinny kid, you don't have a massive bone structure, but you have a very interesting and very advantageous shape to your muscles and your body. When you first started working out, did your body just, because you said you were 98 pounds when you graduated high school.

When you started lifting weights, did your body just respond? Did you build muscle easily? I guess so, but not knowing it. And I remember, you know, the local gym that I went to that they allowed me to train there, the bigger and older guys would be like, Jesus, you coming here and you just breathe the local gym that I went to that they allowed me to train there. The bigger and older guys would be like, Jesus, you coming here and you just breathe the weight and you grow. But I didn't see that.

I mean, you know, you don't see yourself growing like that. It's that old, you know, effect. You take a mouse and you put it in hot water or frog. You put in hot water, it jumps out, put him in cold water and slowly turns it up. And it just sits in. So you don't, you don't see that change in over every day. And you're looking at these greater people, but I remember these always joke,

you're like that, you know, you just coming in and just walk around and you grow. Were they recognizing the talent right out the gates? Yeah, the talent and even more so, the genetics. And I, in my ignorance, you know, as again, as embarrassing as it is, I say I remember them saying, you know, when I was a teenager,

wow, you got great genetics. And I look like, is that, is that like Call of Me Black? What do you mean? I just, what does that mean? You know, extremely embarrassing, but I didn't know what it meant. I'm like, are you just respecting me?

I mean, I just, Almost like taking away from your work ethic. Yeah, so I just looked at it as a slur because unfortunately in that same environment, I would always hear like, wow, flex your great man. You know, too bad your black girls, wow, flex your great man. Too bad you're a black girl, she'd be great one day. And again, because it was my environment that I came from,

I was like, man, I guess not, not gonna do about that. Cause that's so, you know, just not really honest, but just ignorant about the whole situation. I didn't get upset. I was just like, geez. Can't do nothing about it, you know? Like I wish I could.. I was just like, jeez. I can't do not about it. I wish I could. So it was that same environment. So I just was taken at there just being, you know, and saying something to our territory again.

In the 90s, you had, it was an interesting era because you had, on the one hand, you had the very aesthetic type of bodybuilders like you, I could place Sean Reign, that category. And then you had the mass monsters. It was really the birth of the massive, you know, when Dorian Yates took second to Lee, came back like 20 pounds heavier, and then you had Nasr and all those guys. And so it was always that conversation. Is it the aesthetic, is it the symmetry and balance? Is it the size?

What was the light competing against Dorian and in particular, I wanna ask you, how did you feel when Dorian, because Dorian, I'm not gonna lie, was very dominant when early on. Then he tore his bicep and he still, and you would win these competitions. Perfect score, Stu.

With the perfect score, there's no symmetry there. And not knocking the guy, Dorian is one of my biggest. It is what perfect score, there's no symmetry there. Yeah. When arm, when arm, and no, but, you know, not knocking the guy during this one of my days, what it is, it is what it is. What it is, what it is. How did you feel at the time when you were competing and you're seeing this, did you feel like, okay, this is just politics?

You know, I, it angered all of this because, at the beginning, I was just happy to be there. I didn't know anything. I mean, I didn't come from a gym with magazines and all this. I didn't know crap. I didn't know you can make money. I didn't turn in pro-al-case, so what? I didn't know anything.

So when I won the honor classic, you know, and my second pro show, my second win, I didn't freaking know what was going on. You know, I won the Iron Man before competing against the Great Leela Brada. Oh, yeah. And Vince Taylor. What was the one with the one with the one with the one?

Oh, man, that's right. No, I'm sorry, it was Vince Taylor. That's right, you'd be Vince Taylor's a rookie, which Vince is one of the greatest. Yeah, so I didn't know what was going on. I thought, okay, this is the Iron Man. It's a lower caliber show than Next Weekend, which is the honor classic.

He's a seasoned veteran veteran. He just, you know, kind of just F. Just went off. He's going to come in and just wipe me, you know. So next weekend, it was Lila brought in him. So I'm like, I'm about to get my SS tour part. I go, plus, you know, my analogy because I messed up. I'm like, they did made a mistake.

They're going to figure it out this time. I'm probably going to get last. They're going to figure out I'm a Wayne Garama. You know, I'm not really who I am or anything like that. And it went against both of those guys. And I'm embarrassed on stage that I beat these two guys. You're kidding me. So you looked insane on that show too.

I mean, just absolutely. It's crazy the way you viewed yourself at that time. You know, I bet nobody else within that. Probably people thought you were cocky if anything. Oh yeah, 100% because again, I guess, you know, most introverts, they're exavers on stage or in public because you're trying to hide that. You know, I guess, you know, most introverts, they're exoverts on stage or in public because you're trying to hide that, you know, I get it. I know, you know, they said that about

Michael Jackson and other great entertainers like that. But when you get out there, you can't imagine that they're, you know, uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable in public. I'm uncomfortable in my skin, no matter where I am, I'm uncomfortable. So being on stage and my chownies in front of the world, it's just like as uncomfortable as it gets against other guys that I admire. So being on stage and my chownies in front of the world, it's just like I'm as uncomfortable as it gets. Yeah, against other guys that I admired. So I just didn't see that. I guess you can almost relate it to the, you know, the beautiful girl in high school who just thinks she's ugly duckling. She acts that way, you know, but no, I

didn't. Only later did I start kind of getting more aware of who I am and my arrogance started becoming even worse and I was my own worst enemy. But, you know, competing against Doreen my first time, it was my first misdolimpian, my fourth pro show. It was different because everybody else had competed against, I feel okay on stage within myself. I'm comfortable with everything, but I didn't fill them, right? I didn't fill them next to me.

So my first time competing against Doreen, I remember thinking, jeez, I can fill this guy's presence next to me. I mean, that's somewhat space he's taken up next to me. And that's all I thought about it. I didn't think I was gonna win or anything like that. I know after the show was a first and only time I met the great Surgellivia.

Oh, yeah, awesome. And it was just like, I mean, I was like shaking in my boots, you know, and we're going into the hotel together and he opens the door for me, goes, you won that show. And I'm like, thank you, you know, but I'm like, I'm just happy to be here. Did you notice I got second? You know, but now I see what he's saying because of the matchup and away the sport was at his time, which should have happened. I can get that now. So as as Dorian started having injuries, which it happens, you know, I mean,

if you run a hard all day long, you know, it's just like in a fight, if you got to gauge yourself, don't throw everything, you know, the first time, you know, you got to gauge it sometimes fast, sometimes slow. But his analogy was go hard all the time. Heavy as possible, most intense as possible. So you run into injuries. So he was winning with a perfect score. And I was a little still younger than his, but Kevin LeVron and and

Sean Ray were more aware and vocalist like listen, okay, if you're winning with a perfect score and you have no injuries and then you have a injury that you can see, that's not perfect anymore. And then we have another torn muscle. How is that still perfect? So as me and Kevin and Sean were kind of more, I guess, pleasing to watch polls, you know, we're better expressionists of ourselves or whatever. We knew that he wasn't. So how can you beat us in posing when you're not noted to be a better posing than us. And we look at the squat to the end of the day is 5, 5, 5, 5, that's perfect. I'm like, wow. So honest, for me, I just didn't say nothing. I'd always just say, Hey,

listen, man, you know what, I'm going for second. I'm trying to hold everybody else off. That was my way up saying, I know what's going to happen. I just can't do anything about it. And me and Dorian got along great other than Sean Ray and Dorian and Kevinlin and Dorian didn't get along at all. So I didn't really want to be disrespectful for something that this man had no control over. If they're allowing things to happen,

why am I gonna go and sit on his parade? That's not cool. You know, that's not respectful. You know, so I would just try to take it to a month's age. I'm trying to beat him, but I understood what was gonna to happen. Yeah, every, every decade in bodybuilding has that rivalry, right? Lee Haney had his Lila Brawda. Yeah, yeah, to actually Lila Brawda and Rich Ditts. Yeah, what do you call it in Ritzkisbury? Yeah, yeah, and then, you know, Dorian had you, but

there was also guys like Sean and Kevin and then later on NASA. Yeah. And among those guys who were, who were the guys that you always Nasser. And among those guys, who are the guys that you always looked out for the most to compete? Who are the ones that you were, I guess most competitive or impressive? Yeah, impressed with. On two different levels, personally, it was me and Sean because we knew each other and we would hang out with each other. I actually had the opportunity to meet him before I turned pro, and he was there talking to me when I turned pro. And so I, in hindsight, I remember things he said, like, oh my God, man, look, jeez, I wish I had a arms like that, just not another. And also, now in past tense, he's done interviews where he's personally said, listen,

I always knew that he was better than me. He had everything that I had, and he's like four or five inches taller, and about, you know, 20 pounds heavier. I always knew that he was better than me. He had everything that I had. And he's like four or five inches taller and about 20 pounds heavier. I always knew I couldn't compete against that. So I'll go mentally towards him. So, but Kevin was on the other side of the lake and we would only hear about each other because it was only magazines then.

So when he actually beat me the year before I turned pro. So I knew of him and he already defeated me when other people had it. So I'm scared of him. You know, when I went and competed against Son for the first time as a pro, I won. So that kind of took that out of the equation. So, um, and me and Kevin had a mutual respect for each other. We finally met each other. You were the respectful guy. We hit it off. We got along great and everything like that. So it was kind of, it was kind of a fun rivalry with him because it was never no

disrespect. I remember doing an interview, Kevin said something like, you know, I don't knock on doors, I knock him over. And then in another video I did, I said, you know, I hear you knocking, but you can't come in. You know, so it was like nice stuff like that. So it was really respectful, like not like, you know, you need like a piece of shit just, it was never that. So we always got along, you know, and even though I got along

with everybody on stage, regardless of where they got along with me, because I always understood that why I hate it, individual be mad at him. He's just trying to do the same thing you are. He's trying to feed his family and make a living. So why, why do that? And if you don't get the place and you feel you deserve, don't cut Sima to disrespect him. If you're really a man, go talk to the judges. He picked him for, you know, if you really want to be real, but you're not going to do that because you don't want to mess them up. So I think that's a punk. Yeah.

I mean, a real point. A real champion is trying to win. And I want to beat the best guy in his best condition. So there's no excuse. I just never got that. And I know a lot of people looked at me like that and was angry. I just never like really. So when you talk about that person, you're

really showing your weakness. That's like me and you trying to hit on the same girl. Right. So, you know, I'll use it about you. Yeah. And I'll use me as a bad person. I'm talking shit about you. And she's like, spit your own game. It's like you, you identify in your weaknesses. You making it worse. So I just didn't get that about people. I didn't get it. I didn't get it. Was it common? Was it common to see beefs? Was it world? Um, over some of the most common beefs and hate, hate going back and forth between some of the competitors. Sean, I think Sean, Sean kind of wrote a lot of people the wrong way, right? He was, at least that's what I used to read. He's, he's just that type of guy.

Yeah. Well, being vocal, don't mean you're right. You know, just being able to pick off. I mean, everybody have, you know, an ASS, you know, it doesn't mean you're right. Just being there with a gnawing. Everybody have an ASS, it doesn't mean that yours is cleaner than somebody else. But he was that type of guy. He admitted that he thought that I had, how did he put it? Mental weaknesses. Oh.

So that's why he picked on me mentally because he knew he couldn't defeat me physically. That's the logical warfare. Yeah, it would say good. It is, it is a warfare, but later on after you were run, right, my book, he's like, I had no idea that you've been through all that. I would have never f would you because I wrote in my book,

how mad I was, you know, and I knew that we're a great friend, so I wrote that I was going to knock on his door one late night, one late night, and I knew he would open it because we're friends, and I was going to lock the door and just beat his ass for hours. So this is how f'd up I am, and I wrote he would open it because we're friends and I was going to lock the door and just beat his ass for hours. So this is how F'd up I am. And I wrote it in my book. I was just going to beat his ass for hours.

Stop have a drink, eat, you know, rest and just convince the whoopin' his ass again. Lock the door and go home. No one's going to know. There's no video cameras in. There's no cell phones. It's going to be his word against mine. That's all messed up. When you read the book he's, I never knew that you had issues like that.

I would have never picked on that because I'm like, yeah, bro, I mean, we're from different neighborhoods. You might say to one guy, don't mean anything, but you even look at it. We know it. You come from the wrong neighborhood, just looking at a guy, you're a fight.

When you're looking at what you looking at, what's up, what's up with you? We're walking towards Jolly and you're making it happen another way. You look at him like, hi. Yeah. So it's different,'m sound was the most vocal, but that was just his way of trying to combat his weaknesses and actuality The guys ever like get into it behind in the pump up room. I wanted to hurt him

I tried to hurt him a couple of times. I was stopped Nobody else really gotten fights. I think Back then he got knocked out once by another amateur. He was just being disrespectful and he took this guy's bench and his guy was a trainer. He was an amateur and Shawn was getting ready for Olympia and he's took the guy's bench. He was Greg and his nickname now is the hammer. So we called him the hammer after that. He took his bench and Greg was pro. I'm like, hey, man, I'm you, we talked, but I'm getting ready

for Olympia. You know, so you can't just muffle up to everybody like that, you know what I mean? But that was just him. He was just that type of guy is extremely vocal. I mean, on the other side of it, I respect him tremendous as an athlete. I mean, look what he did at his age, you know, he was my color, you know, going up again, he was smaller guy. So I'm like, I looked up to him what he did at his age. You know, he was my color, you know, going up again, he was small a guy. So I'm like, I looked up to him and I actually learned

how to pose from him. I would take his videos when I was in amateur and I would watch his video and then emulate and have my friend video court meet trying to do identically the same thing. So in other ways, I had tremendous respect from him. I just didn't believe that you had to be just respect for to go hard at a guy because you might be crossing

that line where we say you gotta stand your own lane, you might get bent up. Your martial arts flexibility came in handy with your posing with some of your posing routines. Quite unique, you got a lot of attention. Yeah, I, you know what, I just, for me, that was. I mean, doing the splits on stage, well, you know, back on myself,

but you know what, that was crazy because you were the first to do that, right? Actually, I got to be honest, I wasn't. Phil Hill. Yeah. The first Phil Hill was the first to do splits. That's right. Phil wasn't Phil Hill.

A stripper back in the day. Was that Phil Hill? Was that someone else? I don't know Phil. Sam, my name was a couple of other biceps. I'm worried that it was a few of them. But I don't know about Phil, but I met Phil when I was in amateur. He came in guest pose in Fresno.

And if you know anything about him, he has probably the biggest quads in just the history of the sport. I remember he was a walker. I'm thinking of the wrong guy, that's right. That's right. And I remember his friend, I was just looking, I was just like, you know, just young little kid, I think I was like maybe 16 years old.

And his friends go say hi to him, and I'm like terrified, shaken. He goes, hey man, how you doing? He's just super nice. He goes, we're talking in my closest friend, my martial artist instructor and mentor, time of guard is where he goes. What you guys come on up?

I mean, no, let's what is. I'm like, so we're talking and he's like, so you compete, huh? He goes, so you can. So we're talking, somehow we got into the splits, because he did it on stage. I'm like, how did you do that? He goes, can you do it on my count?

Because you had to try it. I'm like, who cares if I do it? He goes, try it. And I wasn't thinking about it. And one time I was on stage, I was going into my routine and I just spun and my legs started open. I just went into the splits and it crouted like crazy. I'm like, but I'm a martial artist.

Who gets it down? Everybody can do the splits. I just didn't think of it like that. Everybody can't do the splits. Well then my world, my world of martial arts, everybody can do the splits anymore Well then my world, my world of martial arts, everybody can do the splits anymore, but I just, posing was, it was my way of trying to communicate with the crowd. I always pick music for a certain reason. I would always come off with very slow music, because I understand when slow music comes

on, people pay attention, they're quiet, it's respectful, right? When rival music, a hard car, you know, hard music, or whatever is on, people are amp, right? They're up. So it always picks low music, cause that was my way of saying, you know, shut up, sit down and listen, I wanna display something. But I got it, just like a movie,

you can't have a slow movie the whole time, you gotta bring them out, hype, they're also gonna walk away, you know, just inspired. So the last 30 seconds, I would always switch over to hardcore music, or something, amped up, or whatever the or whatever the hardest you know rap was back then because I went to people go away and I was just my way of deciding. So I wanted I wanted to ask you something that so I competed right so I was I'm a pro mince physique athlete. And I was told before I got into it that all politics this politics

that right and what isn't politics in right just all politics is politics that right and What isn't politics in right just tell me that and everything right and everything I'm even a husband and wife. What is it? I mean is politics and going all right, which is why I didn't it didn't scare me away In fact, it only motivated me more to like proved everybody watch me do this all by myself with no coach or no team Now my first experience with it a it, was my first first place win. My first first place win was in Sacramento and in Sacramento. I didn't know any of this at the time, but I take first place and then I'm going for the overall. And when I walked up to get one the overall, and I'm a very objective person.

So if I see another guy that I think and I'm sure in the same way, that's got a better physique, it's like respect. Yeah, for sure. Right, right. And I'm getting ready to same way that's got a better physique. It's like respect. Yes, for sure. Right, right. And I'm getting ready to walk up against for these two guys overall wise. And it's not even close. I should be I'm going to walk away with this sword and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get it.

Right. And I don't. And I'm like, what the fuck? I have no idea. And then I get everybody coming up to me afterwards and they go like, you know, you know who the two athletes that you were going against, who they are, right? I'm like, no, they're amateurs or nobody I know, right? And they're like, well, they both are Jeremy Bundia

and Honey Ramrods athletes. This is their FBF athletes. This is a Sacramento show. Honey is the number one sponsor for the show. And so I got my first taste of, oh, this is how that works. Did you have a lot of this? Did you see a lot of this? And can you explain to people exactly that?

Yeah, it happens. And like we just clarify what doesn't it happen in? Whether you know it or not, what doesn't happen in somebody else getting to raise. And you should have, or even in police officers, my friend always deserved to be a detective, but he never did because everybody liked him as much. And finally, he got it.

So let's be clear, it happens in all aspects of life. This is no different, sorry, our sport is no different than that. I didn't really have it happen to me as an amateur. I don't know why. I just flew under the radar. When I got to a pro, I ran into it. It was, it's documented now. I remember a great writer, Peter McGuff, wrote about me and Kevin competing. I always wondered why does Kevin can bat me so well because I didn't

really think he was the my worst adversary, physique wise. But it would be a lot of shows that he would win, that I would be competing. And I'm like, wow, so we used to say, hey, he's one of those East Coast guys. All the judges from the East Coast, you know, they get more love and we're over here on our West Coast and you know, we don't get that much love.

So I always felt that way, but I see it more prevalent now. Yeah, especially with social media. Well, let's, let's talk about now. I mean, you follow more prevalent now. It's, yeah. Especially with social media. Let's talk about now. I mean, you follow the sport now. Yeah, I do. I don't remember all the names. And honestly, it's just, is different now.

I know what would, would, would, Leela Brottica, I remember him telling me when I was still competing, I don't even go to shows anymore. I go, why? He goes, you know, if you're competing, I'll come to see you, but I just, is different. It is.

You know, so they're just enchanted. You know, I remember even, you know, you know, who the USA champion was. I don't even know who won for the last 10 years and no one does. And even a champion, no disrespect to know, is this facts. I mean, it's just my opinion.

Doesn't mean I'm right, I'm wrong. You asked me a question, is my opinion. Let's clear that. But that champion would go on to do something very quickly. You got guys now who turn pro and they don't even do well as a pro. That means you probably not meant to be up there with them yet. You're not pro quality yet. So. Well, back in the 90s, I've heard this argument all the time, but I was a fan and I compare

them all the time, but I was a fan and I compare them all the time. And I see, in the 90s, you guys had, there was a lot of size, but there was insane levels of conditioning. And it doesn't seem like the guys today, although they're massive and they got the big ol' bubbly muscles and all that stuff, they don't seem to hit the same level of conditioning

that the guys in the 90s did. Is there a difference in, was it the, was it the doretic use? Was it that they, some people got, you know, cause you had Paul DeLec cramp up on stage. Yeah, okay, Fran he was in my roommate for a while. Yeah, what's his name? Andreas Munster passed away and he was dressed as the,

Andreas Munster was from, right, because I competed with him. It was from, it was from a drug that helps us. Sight of mail? Sight of mail, yeah. Soight-o-mel, yeah. So that's why, yeah. It's not really a diuretic.

Its side effect is that it stops you from your blood from thickening when you're bleeding. And you just blood out. Exactly. When you got on the operating table because you had a problem before the end, so when they opened it up, just like they don't want you to take aspirin before surgery. So that was kind of the situation with that. Once they opened them up, since systematically things started.

But you had, what's his name? But Ben, it's either. Yeah, I'm a comment. Yeah, he died on state. Yeah. Were you guys using different substances or more duretics than they are now? Was it the diet?

Because you guys were shredded. I mean, in hard, very, very grainy looking, they don't have that same quality it seems today. Yeah. What's the difference? So, the difference is those directs are still out there, but there's better ones now. The technologies, come on, you're talking 20, 30 years technology is better. So I think the problem is, is that just a homework wasn't put into it.

And I can relate this to every sport. You got a guy who a kid wants to play basketball. He's trying to learn a cross-order, is it just that? You don't even know the basics. They don't care about the basics. We're back in our era, we respected Arnold and the people who came before us

for we understood the hard work. I use the same analysis. We knew that it's gonna take a couple of years to get there, talk to any kid and bodybuilding right now. Yeah, I'm gonna turn pro next year. I'm gonna be in Olympia. Really? But it's not just that.

You look at high school players, they think they're, you know, have the respect of a pro ball and they act like it. So I don't think that work and respect is put down like we did. I mean, you know, it's, this is what I found when I got in a mince. Yeah.

I was floored by, you know, I'm, so I'm very transparent about my steroid use and how I use it. So I'm very open about it. And one of the things that I was blown away by was, I'm at the minz physique level, the dosages that were, still to this day, we're blown away. I was like blown away.

I mean, I took 250 milligrams, I peaked at 400 milligrams, and I was told when I hit stage that I was looking too much like a bodybuilder, so I had to bring the dosage down. And then I talked to all these kids that are getting in it, and they're taking grams of shit. And I'm like, to be a men's physique, what the fuck? Yeah, it's shocking, because when men's physique first hit,

we were blown away with their condition. I'm talking straight it back like mine was. And I'm like, so to see so many, it's like, that's not by design. I will, that is by design. That's not by genetics because they're just drying out. So they're like, wow, these guys are going to have a tough time in about five or six years

when it's a sport old enough for problems you're going gonna start happening. Because unless you're unfortunate like Muhammad or something like that, and even him, it's not his first probably time of ever cramping. Right, I mean, just I guess they call it like a drug, a drug person who's taking drugs chasing her high. So as they're chasing at high,

they probably run into some problems, but they beat it. So they know they can go up to that limit or they're comfortable. So you keep pushing that envelope and that's what anything. But I'm floored that the doses that they use, because I mean, I even remember in my time, other guys saying, man, when you guys stop taking a candy, and I'm like, candy. And they would explain what they're taking,

I'm like, I'm okay with the candy, I guess. You know, but I did start going harder as I got older, but even those doses are, I mean, it's not in comparison to the guys taking down. So to answer your question as far as the differences, I think that heart work, and it's come on. I mean, it's hard to be a pro body. I mean, everything got to be on point.

It's 24 hours a day. Media, and everything got to be on point. Not just your upper body, it got to match, and just that, no, they got to flow. point, not just your upper body. It got to match and this side, now they got to flow. So you got to have the right matches in the left hand. I mean, it's rough and that don't happen overnight. Listen, I mean, a 16 year old, two 16 year olds, one have facial hair and one don't.

That's just their gift, but it took you 16 years to get there. So how are you going to accelerate to becoming to this man and then a Superman and then what we would jokingly say, you know, it is demigod within, you know, a few years. So that's rough. And it's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of hard work. And dedication and perseverance. I just don't really think that's there now. And I don't think they have to go to that degree because there's other categories. So that you don't have to go that hard. I'm not saying that Jeremy or anyone else don't go full tilt of what they're doing, but

it's not where we were. And God bless them. And I'm happy that they have all these physique classes now because now you're not forcing people to be trying to come something that they weren't. You know, even go back to say, you know, even though I say certain things about Sean, I respect him from other, take him and put a two 12 class. He would have never, never, never, never lost. Sean and compete over to 15.

So imagine him back then, if there was a two 12, if you would be a 30 time Mr. Lampy, he, he's beaten some of us at times. So I think they're smarter now and having all these classes. I don't look bad at it. It's smart enough because you're not putting people in positions where you have to put it themselves in such harm's way. But that's your choice if you went there

because you don't have to. Like you said, really men's physique. I mean, when it first started, you can go out and look at a beach body guy, right? Just a real pure guy who's just surfed for beats. He's gonna look like mint condition, right? That's what I thought it was. It was for a minute.

Yeah, so probably your look of what they said, you're being too big or looking like a bodybuilder, a better man's physique guy would wipe that look away right now. Oh yeah, no, it evolved to that. It definitely, so when I came out, and it was funny too, because I heard this story later on, long after, not long, but a year or two after I I left competing, I was talking to one of the judges. I had an athlete, a competitor that was competing in a, had a chance to talk to him and I walked

over and said, hi, to him, introduce myself. And he goes, oh, I remember you. And he tells me the story of my very first show where I came out in the morning. And when I came out in the morning, I didn't even come out first call out. And I came with it. So I trained really hard long. I've been training for 15 years building my body. I came and dialed and I had a lot of pro buddies and coaches and my theory was I want to hit

stage as an amateur already ready to be at the professional level. I gotta stop you right there. That was one of my analogies, and even with my team that I work with guys now, that's my, you wanna stand on stage as an amateur and have the judges look at you and like, just get him out of here, he's pro quality. That's when you're ready to go on stage as a pro.

That's how I feel, I felt like I had so much, that's crazy. So much work to put in before I even get in on the station. And then everyone tried to tell me, like, oh, you need to get the jitters out and you're posing. And it's like, I don't even want to get up there. Go up there if you're not ready. Yeah, I don't want to do that.

Right, that's how I felt. And so I get up there knowing that I had a dominant, yeah, dominant physique. And then I don't get call out and first call outs. And so I'm like, what the fuck? a dominant, yeah, dominant physique, and then I don't get call out in first call outs. And so I'm like, what the fuck? And the night show, they jump me to first call outs and I get place fourth place, which those that know about competing know that if you don't finish in the top three, it doesn't

qualify you for nationals. Yeah, I'm F top. If you don't finish first, you just lost. Right. So, and I'm pissed about it, but I'm like, whatever it is, what it is, and it's my first show, but I get a chance to talk to this judge and he remembers me because of the arguments behind behind scenes about my physique And he any name drops and I promised him on radio I would never another row the judges under under the bus

But 100% they they wanted me to come back was my first show They wanted me to pay for another show and show my face again. Yeah, pay your dues. Pay my dues and they were going to place me in the top three. They give me one spot out from that, even though arguably I probably had the number one physique out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty, it's pretty crazy to see. And then I see, I don't know if you saw recently what happened with Mark Bell. Mark Bell just competed. No, I didn't. Okay, so Mark Bell just competed. I know who you are, but I didn't.

So Mark Bell just competed. He's a long time powerlifter guy. I know he takes a lot of gear. He definitely does not have a bodybuilder's physique. And Hony was his coach, and he took first place in his first show. Really? Yeah. Yeah, you have to check it out on what?

Yeah, check it out. I was hoping you Yeah, you have to check it out on. Wow. Yeah, check it out. I was hoping you'd seen it so we could talk about it. Yeah, I know all the brothers, yeah. Because they're mostly our power lifters, right? Yeah. Yeah, I know all of them. Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, you see a lot of that going, I feel like that's happening more. And that's why I was curious when you were, I think today, when you go to compete and you have a million followers on Instagram or you've got a huge social media following, you're going to get looked at more and maybe win as a result. I don't think in bodybuilding, that's not going to work because they can bat each other.

You might be able to make more money or have more what I call a draw, right? You know, because people ask me me all the time, you know, how can I get a sponsorship? What's your draw? What do you mean by that? Do you walk in a room and people migrate to you? That's what people are looking toward to spend, because they might go, might great towards you

then they can cross-bin out over to their product. So whatever it is, you know, you have to have that what we call, you know, when you walk in a room, you have presents. X-Factor? Yeah, yeah, or X-Factor. So that's not going to work so much because they they really combate each other. The news that there's never been and I don't think they ever will be a person who has an amazing say. I have some friends, you know, really, really good friend

of mine and he's just off to chain with, you know, his physique. He had compete it before. He's Elyseis, right? You know, 5.3 million followers, right? And we had a chance to talk, finally, after knowing each other for almost, you know, two decades, you know, we talked and hung out, you know, in England, we were there and he just spit the whole game to me internet wise. I'm like, wow, is that indeed because he's a man, he's a business, you know, you can make a business out of this, but he competed, you know, he competed at a different level. He won all the time, but it wasn't because you look at his physique. He won because of that. So his physique helped him be better as an internet personality, but it won't cross over

and help you be a better athlete because it's judged differently. No one cares about how many followers you have. Let's use the example, you know, Ronnie Coleman. I think he has like maybe two million followers. Come on, he's the king. Ronnie will always be the king. I hope I'm alive and hope is safe to look at the person who beats his best physique ever. I mean, I just don't foresee that.

But what was that? What was the time about Ronnie? What was that like you were supposed to win that I remember, like I said, I was a big fan. I remember, I remember two. Oh shit. I don't know. Oh shit. Dor shit, Dorian's, he's retiring. Flex withers gonna be Mr. Olympia. Add a nowhere, because Ronnie, I think before that,

was like 10th or something. Yeah, like he was like 7th place. Then comes Ronnie, and he looked like a completely different person. And he wins. Who was that like to see that change? And then, you know, not win that? You know, I mean, it's the first talking about it on New York's show, but I gotta be honest. We knew what's gonna happen.

I mean, you know, the year before that, me and Ronnie have always been super close. You know, you just, some guys you just meet immediately, you guys just hit it off. Some guys you just know, I ain't gonna never like you when I don't care, and I want you to know it. I don't know why. Is what it is Yeah, so me and Ronnie had always been great friends, you know traveling all over the world in this that another competing and You know it's been talked about and he's acknowledged to it

He probably came to me is like my you know, I'm tired of getting my ass. What what you doing? You know cuz Ronnie was always natural. That's one thing a lot of people that know Ronnie towing pro and Compete as a pro naturally for a long time, that know Ronnie Tone Pro and competed as a pro naturally for a long time. You know what? I used to read that and that was so hard to believe. That's fucking true. It's true.

I have heard that too. You know what happens when you take a guy like that and then fucking put him on some gear? Kents back to what I said before, putting in the hard work before you go there. Wow. So same thing with Kai Green. I know Kai Green very well.

He was natural for a long time competing until, you know, whatever. So Ryan came to me and I'm like, okay, because I learned from people. So I never been effed up like, damn, I can't tell. He made me, he might beat me one day. So we sat down and I laid the whole game work down. And next year, he started doing well. I remember he actually beat me in the first competition ever. And we're over in Canada and he beat me

I'm like But I was I was off right I was off But he's still and you know and it was funny because he's talking about like damn flex because we're good friends Right, so he's like damn flex. I beat you damn that they must think I'm good. I beat you So it's not like man. I beat you. So it's not like, man, I beat you. It's my boy talking to me, right? Something like, Ronnie, you're good. So the next weekend, we ended up competing again

and I was in Florida at the pro cup. Florida pro cup and I ended up winning. And then it was a big show, the following weekend and night at champion back in those days and he's right on my ASS. And he's never, never, never been in a callout with me. I mean, he's been like third or fourth callout and I've always been called number one. So I'm like, you know, and then, you know, I beat him in that. So and then the following year, I watched his

physique change. We're working at the same, working with the same person for our diets. And, you know, Chad Nichols and Chad had actually told me, goes, wow, Ronnie, Ronnie can't handle your diet. I go, what do you mean? He goes, because I go zero cars for a long time. I can just do that. I don't go into what they call ketosis. Yeah, no, it's really dangerous. Hyperglycemic. When you don't have enough cars,

I can just handle it for whatever reason. He goes, yeah, I dropped Ronnie down to like 200 grams of cars and he almost passed out. He goes, I can't do this shit. So his low was like five, six hundred. I'm most passed out. He goes, I can't do this shit. So his low was like five, six hundred. I'm like, everybody's different, right? But I just watched him change and Chad would send me pictures of Ronnie getting ready. You know, and I'm like, God dang, we still thinking, well, you're going to beat him because you're shaped just another one. I'm like, so I remember being on

stage, 1998. And you know, I was in the first call out. I think Ronnie was in the third call out. We never even met each other on stage. But I remember watching him stage, 1998. And I was in the first call out. I think Ronnie was in the third call out. We never even met each other on stage. But I remember watching him standing behind him like, God dang, and I, here he is, doing a crap pose. And his back is stride. It from top to bottom is glistening. And I'm thinking myself, what if they missin' with him? You know, he looks better than I do.

I'm like, fuck, I hope they don't catch up and fight for you this out, right? So, you know, whatever happens. So you knew it was coming. Yeah, and I mean, it's been talked about before and I got to be honest, regardless who I upset or not. I mean, it's noted, but I had, I signed with another company, 15 days before that Olympia. So I left a Weeter organization, and I joined this company called Biochem.

And me and Ronnie took a right back. We took a right back, because we had to door a little pictures after the pre-jazz, and we took a right back. He's like, wow, man, you know, Joe Weeter, you know, sat down and talked to me. I'm like, cool, man, you know, big deal. He goes, flex, I've been a pro long been in you. Joe Weeter, I never even said my name. I'm like, cool man. You know, big deal. He goes, flex, I've been a pro long been in you.

Joe Wheat, I never even said my name. I'm like, well, shit, he should. Look at you, Ronnie. So I'm like, you know, so he goes, well, he, he off from me a contract. I'm like, take it, dude, take it. So we actually end up taking a taxi back to preach. I mean, to the final show.

It's like, man, I signed. I signed with Joe Wheat. I'm like, hell, he had a the final show, it's like, man, I signed, I signed with Joe Weed. I'm like, hey, we have a good for you, Ronnie. So, wow. So like I said, he wasn't, he was in call out three. And I was in call out one. So if you look at the score, it's, I have five and his has gotta be like a seven or a nine

or something like that. So mathematically, it was weird because the next two rounds were supposed to be, it's no one who can beat me at that time. And I was posing because I was a great poser. Ronnie's not really noted as a great poser. And then pose down, which is just the presence you create. And I was kind of, I was kind of pretty good at that. So, but he perfect scored me in those. And ended up winning by two points. And I was like, wow. So, just after you signed the contract. Yeah, so that was interesting. Well, that would have been a great example

of that politics shit I was talking to you about. Just like this. But I tell you what though, I tell you what though, you lost to the, I mean, and then you went on to win, and dominate. So I was a mad at that, and then you went on to win and dominate. So my, I wasn't mad at that. And I knew I effed off that show. I knew I'd do it.

I knew I could look better. I mean, I used to dress in great Michael Jordan, you know, training gear so that I can go to the stroke club right after training hard. So I could still look decent. I just, I wasn't there. I had that mentality that I could never be number one. Hey, listen, if you show up at the Arnold or the Ironman or anything else I'm a handy or ask but do I was just had a mental block about the limp. I just never perceived I didn't accept myself as number one

So he won that show and he deserved to you know the next year I came in actually 15 pounds heavier that so that's pretty hard to do when you're in your prime to come in 15 pounds heavier and in better shape And for whatever reason he kind of missed his peak, you know, he wasn't there. So back then, we were really close with each other. Right there, I wanted to beat you or not at the price when we were close, we talked, we hung out and we traveled the world together. It's not like now. So immediately when we take off our clothes backstage, we know what's going on.

You know, when we have a look at you, like, yes, as soon as you take it close off, we already know, you know, who's the channel is who's not. So I got on dress, we're working out, and Ronnie finally get on dress, and I'm like, oh my God, you got him. So everybody's running out to me back, you got him, you got his ass. I'm like, I got him, right?

So I got on stage, and big story is, he perfect scores me. So I'm like, so that's the year that I took off my medallions on stage. But it hit me. It hit me. So I'm like, so that's the year that I took off my medallions. But it hit me. It hit me. It finally dawned on me like, okay, I'm better than that. So my thing was I took off these medallions because I'm sure you've seen it at a show before where a person's reward at first and another person reward at second, oh, we made a mistake. But meanwhile, the person who took second, he's pissed.

And a person won. It's like, oh, we made a mistake. Number one goes to two. Number two goes to one. Now all of a sudden, they're atmosphere changes. The guy who thought he won. Now he's pissed. The guy who thought his life, he feels like a champ.

Why? Because I'm a dying, because what they put around your neck, because of what they said. Right. So it all came, me right then, I'm not number two. This represents number two. I'm not number two. I'm number one.

You're not gonna make me feel like I'm number two. So that's all it was. And then I went to Ronnie and everybody's like, what did you say to him when you knew Don, like, man, I love you. Congratulations. And I jokingly said, you know, I can be a Jeff the party, right?

Because why? Why would I go? I'm pissed. I'm hurt. Why would I go in my best friend? Just want to miss Olympia and I'm gonna go there and soak and look around and make him feel uncomfortable. Take your ass home. Yeah. You know, so I went back to the hotel with my people and we ate pizza, you know, so I can be myself. So, but I just realized that, but it helped me because if I would, if he would have won by one point or two points again,

I'm like, I can chase that down. I can go harder. But by him winning by a perfect score, like, okay, he's out of reach now. It's just, it is what it is. So what my job is now is to hold everybody off his second place instead of chasing it. So, you know, this reality came to me. Now, pro bodybuilding for a long time has been, you know, obviously just reality came to me. Now, pro body building for a long time has been, you know, obviously very competitive,

but also a sport where people attribute a lot of the success of the athletes to things like anabolic steroids and insulin and growth hormone and all that stuff. Right, let's get into it. It wasn't, well, I mean, I thought the flow you watered was good. Let's get into it.

Well, you already did talk about Ronnie Coleman, fucking be a natural and Kai be a natural. That's what you've been saying. Cause I know that's been a rumor for a long time. Yeah, see, but that's fucking, and we talk on our show a lot about that, that people, they look at these competitors and they think it's just the drugs.

It's like you have no idea the genetics and the hard work that those people have to put in. Ronnie, everything, I'm open on a pro level. I don't talk to Amhert's about it and I don't talk to just to anyone about it, because I understand that my words have power, and if I say certain things of what I've done, every kid's gonna run off and take that thing,

they're gonna be the next, so I can't do that. But on a pro level, I'm very honest with anyone who asked me, so there's many pros who are competing now, and retired, I told the exact same thing. Why is it that Ronnie had changed his old men and morphs? He's just that guy. He had that inside him and it was just waiting to explode. That was his gift.

Nothing you can do about it. You know, my brother Robert, you know, he competed his natural all this whole life and he's always told me, you know, and here I am Flex Wheeler. So he knows I know everything. He's never asked who goes, I wanna stay natural. I'm like, stay natural man, good for you. Everybody who looks at him think like,

come on, dawg, you know he's on something and he's your brother, you know he's giving him best. He's natural and you look at his physique, I'll give you guys this Instagram later. He's natural, his guys who just have that gift. It is what it is. Oh man, I've known guys, I've run gyms for more than half my life

and I've known guys to take a gram or more of testosterone a week who don't look like shit, literally. Like you could look at him and they don't look like almost anything at all. And then I know guys that there was just one guy who used to work for me. I talked about him all the time on the show. He was a porter, so I cleaned the bathrooms and stuff.

And this dude didn't have much money. He needed a pop tart for breakfast, and cheeseburger for a month, and he'd go to school crushers with two four, two 25, and 19 in charms. And I was just like that, it's insane. But something happened in bodybuildings. Must be setting in pop tart, some things. It got to be.

But then something else happened in bodybuilding where for a long time, it was substances that made you build muscle, testosterone, their derivatives, growth hormone insulin. And then all of a sudden people started injecting an oil that did nothing but make you look bigger. Synthol. Did that start happening in the 90s?

There was a lot of speculation that guys like, I think it was Ernie Taylor and other people were using them because their arms look so crazy. Is that one that started to enter the scene a little bit? Yeah, I think it was. I think, well, my awareness came in at 90, so it doesn't mean that it wasn't in the 80s, but I was in the 80s, so I can't even claim.

I mean, you know, Arnold and everybody else, even though Arnold admits that he's took things, could you ask me, I wasn't there, I wasn't in his era, so I don't know that, right? So I was in the 90s, I'm aware that's when I first heard of it. But before then, it was a I was in a 90s, I'm aware that's when I first heard of it. But before then, it was a better one called encycling. That did everything even better. You didn't get the bloat or anything like that. That's the one you inject and it makes you swallow from

it. Yeah, yeah. But all of a sudden, I didn't stay it. So it was one before that. I was aware of that one also. I remember reading about that. Kevin LeVron bought the entire stock out. about that. Kevin LeVron bought the entire stock out. No, no, no, my he did. He did. He bought the entire stock out. I read it and how much expensive that was. And I really, you had to do it like right before you were on stage, right? So like backstage, you're just like a hundred shots up and down your body to make it. So, so yeah, um, um, um, synthroll and I think it had a whole bunch of other names came to play. And, um, a lot of us use it. I'm very open that I use it back. Then I want to try it and see what happened.

And everything. Do you think it helped your physique or hindered you? No, I think it hindered back now. Even my athletes now who want to, I tell them, hey, listen, you gotta go get somebody else then, because I can't be your guy. I'm just, I'm not there. I just, I don't believe in insulin.

I don't believe in doing anything or having a person take anything that if you mess up just a little you die. Right. So insulin is one of those things. Mess up just a little. You can have the greatest surgeons right around. You're dying.

Systematically things are going to fill diuretics. It's next in line, but you can control that. Just don't just be smart. But you got to understand this. If me and him go to the club and he's like, he's more of a drinker. I'm not like, all right, we're going to start with this. We're going to start with that. And his third one, he feels great.

My second one, my blood alcohol, and I'm about to pass out. Everyone is different. So don't take something to discuss somebody else did. So the whole, what is it? Central thing. That I think it was a bad thing for the sport, but- Because it's not muscle. You see that's the argument.

I'm glad you said that. So my thing is, people are like, oh, you took a synth, I'm like, huh. Okay. Wow. So what's the difference with steroids? Cornering quote, because if you use a word steroids, it's pretty primitive. My son, when he was a kid, you know, when he was a little boy, he was on steroids because he had asthma.

So I can- Collateral with steroids. Yeah, so I can be an ass and talk steroids. So that's why I use his words, protect not sports, technology drugs. It's very technical, you know, and you use it for sports reasons. So, um, so that was, that was my question, like, wow, so that doesn't belong to him. That's why it's bad. I'm okay. What's the difference with steroids in? Because that should belong to him. So I know that there's certain quote unquote steroids that you can use and it causes an inflammatory effect. And certain places where you inject it,

it causes that effect. And people use it for that same reason for muscle hypertrophy. So what's the difference? Yeah, it's for muscle hypertrophy. So what's the difference? Yeah, it's all using technology to... So what's the difference? So what you look? But I still don't agree with the whole encyclin thing because it actually does more damage people have had heart attacks.

Oh really? Yeah, because it's an oil. So eventually the body has to absorb that oil and I know for... Oh, didn't Milos search out? Didn't you have a heart attack or something? It wasn't Milos. It was a few other guys. I don't want to say their name, but I know it wasn't Milos.

Because I mean, there's some people pass away from it. So you imagine that thick oil that doesn't go anywhere, doesn't go anywhere, and it's so thick. And if you understand, you know, how the body is, muscle fire is a tiny, hence why we couldn't use certain drugs And if you understand how the body is, muscle fibers are tiny. Hence why we couldn't use certain drugs that they use for horses. Remember back in the days, it was a lot of drugs

that people use for horses, cause horses are incredible. If they're muscle fibers are huge, right? So that oil can go through that. But so it would just sit there. So people would get these used abscess. Abscess and everything, they would have to have body parts cut out. So people would get these used at, what did they call it? Absicin. Absicin, everything. I'm gonna have to have body parts cut out.

So it just doesn't make sense to use it. And when you ask about myself before I used them, I tried it in my shoulders and my arms. And I just want to see so my arms actually start tearing. So it always did. My skin, you can see stretch marks now all through or even in my forearm. So it always tore because I'm naturally a skinny,

skinny guy. But what I've seen is that, you know, my skin start tearing more and it start looking more bloated and whatever. And I don't have, you know, the separation I normally have. So I'm like, oh, it's not working for me, you know, I won't use it anymore. But, but everyone has these gifts, you know,

we used to say, you know, like, you know, he's a dope monster, you know, or he's a quad monster or a little quadzilla. You know, because everybody has their gif. So for me, I'm always armed dominant. You know, even as a kid, you go back if you're a historian, go back and look at my kids. It all has bicep triceps and balls. That was it. You know, and still now, so people, are you a centthoid? I'm like, okay. I use a lot of crap. You know, you're still using them. Like, really? Why? You could you want to look at your arms and I look real and I'm like, wow.

So even now, yeah, this cross-racing, so what they said is even now, you know, you're tired just still doing like really. And when I do that, I'm like, ah, you just figured out a way to inject the oil deep into the muscle, where the striatis doesn't go, I'm like, yeah. So as an ass, Stan, you know, Stan Eiffony,

you know, white Rhino was what I call him. How does Joe, so he does this video? Yes. We created this great oil and flex ass perfected it. Please contact it as a female. Let's make somebody off of this. Thousands and thousands of people. I had to do a rebuttal.

Like he's joking. I'm like, he's joking. You dick said he's joking with you guys, but it showed me how rebuttal like so anyway Body building's always been that you know, it's it's it's it's it's first of all a lot of people enter it because they either feel bad about Themselves or want to build an armor It's a very solitary sport. It's extremely competitive Yeah, and people are always trying to take it to the next level and I always I've always said this the good and the bad Let's talk about the good like bodybuilders are

The pioneers of learning how things affect the body that the pioneers about how to we saw always do work your diet Little white coat and then back your absolutely absolutely so I mean a lot of these Olympic athletes and stuff They have a lot they have they should think the bodybuilders for being the kind of pioneers for For trying a lot of this stuff. What do you think is going on nowadays? I see all these bodybuilders going over the Middle East and gaining like 30 pounds all of a sudden. Is there something that we're asking everybody, like, are they thinking something different?

I don't know, I don't know, I mean, I know all of them. I know the owner, I've been to the gym before and I hear these rumors that they started making these jokes and jokes always come from somewhere. Oh, it's an anabolic. So it's a joke that, you know, they're putting more anabolic and a chicken, whatever. But, you know, so my thing about the direct thing, as we're talking about, I'm like, you know, let me blow your mind here. Here's my thought on it. My argument always was, you know, if we use, we use to try to better ourselves to take care of our family to make a means and we're pretty healthy

We're more aware of the body. Why is it not acceptable and later on it became where you know test tossing became a contraceptic I'm like, oh, okay, so now it's okay to give a man, you know test tossing at a certain level because You know it's a contraceptic like really so you ask those just figure out a way to make it better when you want But how do you make this better? I like, how many people, how dangerous is, quote unquote, let's continue using word steroids. Sure. That's more well known.

How dangerous is it? Oh, it's so dangerous really. So I can give you an overdose of any steroid and overdose. You're not gonna die. If it's your first time overdose, you're probably nothing's never gonna happen to you. If it's your first time overdose, you're probably nothing's never going to happen to you. If you overdose a lot of times later on in life, you may have complications of your liver, your kidney, I can give you an overdose that aspirin and kill you.

I can give you an overdose that's sugar and I can kill you dead. I can give you an overdose of alcohol and I can kill you dead. Birth control is more dangerous. Birth control is a form of steroids because some women back in the old days used to use it because birth control as women know they're all coming different strengths. And you gotta figure it out. And same thing, I can give you overdose of birth control and kill you.

So really what's more dangerous? So it's not about what's more dangerous. This would accept the wealth. I'm like, okay, so drugs and they're bad. How about alcohol? Oh, because they can sell it legal. I'm like, okay, so drugs and they're bad. How about alcohol? Oh, because they can sell it legal. I'm like, wow, I remember a point in time when a prohibition. It wasn't legal, but they figured out a way to make tax on so it's legal. So it's not as dangerous. Because if I remember correctly, alcohol has killed more people than anything and other people's people,

other people's kids and children and husband and wife, so why is that still okay? You know, let's talk about cigarettes. Yeah, my argument against antibiotics has always been what people ask me, should I use them? My argument's always, well, if you're going off of them, it's what's gonna be the tough part. And the physiological aspects of going off of them. Mentally.

And the mentally, the mentally, I don't know how many, a lot of people are not prepared, or at least the types of people who are prepared to take antibiotics. And the mentally, the mentally, I don't know how many, a lot of people are not prepared, or at least the types of people who are prepared to take antibiotics to change their body, forget competitors, you're not even on stage, because most people that take antibiotics don't even compete. Those people that take them are the same people

who are gonna have the hardest time going off. Sure. Mentally to watch your gains go away and all that stuff. And then of course, you know. No, physiologically and mentally is gonna be the worst thing, but I just want to quickly because I want to be too long on this track thing is cigarettes. We've known them to have the most deadly things in them. Why can they still sell them? The surgeon general says right there that this will kill you because, but it's still there. Let's go deeper. cocaine. Why don't you taste the people who do the, I get it because if you chase those people,

you're going to end up at the CEO of some great company or some congressman or some president of something. So, oh, I get it now. So, it's not about how bad it is. It's about what demographics that you guys put it at because right now, we already know that cigarettes and alcohol is a top of the list, but steroid is banned and it's bad and boo-hoo and boohoo and all this to another. But it's okay that you know disrespect to anybody because my thing is like,

cut your own backyard. You understand? Cut your own backyard. Now, saying that, for a person who goes out and gets drunk, drunk off their ass is not worse for them because that's actual drug for them. They can't do it out, right? And you have alcoholics, which, you know, for a very different reasons or person who smokes, we know that it's a chain smoke, it's a drug. But those aren't worse, but they look at our sport or any sport that you utilize, you know, sports technology as the black widow of everything.

Oh, it's like what you said, it's because it's illegal. So there's a stigma that's around it. And the irony, the irony, more than that though, it is. Because it is legal. Right. Well, we talked about we talked about marijuana when you first walked in.

I offered you a joint. You said no thanks. And I mean, that's a perfect example. I mean, look how harmless that is. And that's been illegal forever. There's been a stigma around that. Oh, they've finally got it legal. Yeah.

It's all about who they it's all about perception. I mean, look, here's a deal. You talked about cocaine earlier. The penalties for crack are far higher than the penalties for cocaine. That's fact, dude. Who uses cocaine and who uses crack? And so-

I've never seen a study zone out on TV, it blew me away. It's all about who they're trying to target. That's all it. 100%. Yeah, and you're an athlete, you're on TV, you're representing all the, you know. And how that actually really happened is,

we were, because thankfully, doing my era, it was never illegal. It's a class three felony now. I'm not a great person, but you know, as far as knowing knowledge, but I was an officer before I graduated from post in 86, and I worked for the Sheriff Department. So I'm aware of something. So back then, I remember my teachers,

my instructors asked me about the drug, and at that time, it had just, actually at that time, it had just got to where it was about to be a class three. And I warned them like, you know, just coming down as a class three. Okay, never mind. But before it was not a class three,

we can travel with it. It's a class three now. And the reason why is because, unfortunately, it's very, very popular. Right? It's extremely popular. So, and to give you historically, it was actually back in the Hitler days when it was invented.

Right, those were the first testing of that SS troops that gave them drugs to be able to do things that not to. I wasn't there at the first Olympics. Hitler was, hence the drug was. So, all since then, I remember watching football and baseball and, you know, these boys are just big old country fed boys with 23 inch necks. You know, just really, I wasn't there, but I knew the drug was there. But my point is, you know, actually I lost my thoughts. No, let me out. Okay, I got it. So my point is it's not about that.

It's a deeper thing than that. The whole drug thing, it's not about that. It's a deeper thing than that. You know, the whole drug thing. It's not about it. I mean, our number one saying here globally is take to Aspen and call me in the morning. We're a drug population. Take to Aspen and call me. I don't want to deal with you. Take to Aspen and see what happens. That's the drug right there. And it's just the way it is, but it's sad. Yeah, don't even, don't get me started on that. It's the most insane assault on humanity to throw someone in jail for doing something to themselves. That's very strange.

And I'll end it on what I was gonna get at is the reason why I became a class III felony and so indicative now is because it got involved with cocaine and heroin and all those drugs. So the same sellers who were selling cocaine heroin on a lot of the start selling steroids because it's very profitable. They don't care about the drug, they care about profits.

So when that happened in Amoffia, started getting it and selling it high, it got on their radar. Interesting. I did not know that. It is interesting. I wanted to ask you how you just recently competed in a classic competition. I want to ask you about your health because I know you had mentioned earlier in the episode, you had to have kidney replacement. Yeah. And people I'm sure ask you about your health because I know you had mentioned earlier in the episode you had to have kidney replacement and people I'm sure ask you all the time.

I know the answer because I'm familiar with you, but for our audience, A, was it due to any anabolic steroid use or your bodybuilding lifestyle? And then B, how's your health now in regards to it? No, it's completely doing my sex habit. I just should just do freaky things. I know it's challenging on a body, but no, I mean, no. It's a disease. It's a focal glomerulosclerosis.

Don't know how I contracted. I'm aware of it a little bit more, but it's the most aggressive and deadly as kidney disease known to man. There's no cure to it. We all pass away from our disease unless we get a kidney transplant and I'm actually met parents who had teenagers who are on their third and fourth kidney because it's rabbits They're new kidney. So I'm really fortunate to be here 15 years later on the same kidney and everything my health is great And I knew that there was gonna be a really big stigma about me coming back and competing

I like, oh you just I got ripped apart. Oh, you got a plus, you got a new kitten, you're gonna go on F dot off again. Great for you. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't know I could, in a way that I could do it. So, but to get into that, I wanted to do it for a bigger reason. To go back on stage, again, earlier because what we talked about, I met so many people all over the world

who've been through really, really dark times and been, as we say in a military, been out in dark waters, really deep dark waters. You just imagine yourself, been out in the middle of the ocean and is deep and is dark and is nothing around you. And that's a lifestyle that a lot of us has lived. So I remember joking, saying,

I'm never gonna compete again because I've been in a fight with Jason and Freddie Kuggen, they both with my ass at the same time, meaning I have so many scars all over me from all my surgeries, I'd be too embarrassed. But after meeting people who have worse scars than me, you know, and they would ask me, you know, how did they live? And people, you know, who have worse, you know, transplants than me and, you know, third and fourth transplants.

Everything I've been through back surgery and knee surgery and all that stuff, I'm like, wow, I need to make a stance, you know, for these people, it was never about me. I knew I couldn't compete against these young guys. I know what point blank said, I cannot beat these young cats. It's gonna be an honor to stand on stage with them, but I gotta do it for a bigger reason. And it was just my way of trying to show people,

hey, listen, if I've been through all this and I can stand up here with my ratchet ass, rift all apart and say, hey, I'm still a trying, you have no excuse, but I can't say you don't have no excuse unless I go do it. So as we said before, people give in certain gifts or whatever, I knew that was just something I had to do for people who just have just, I mean, for some of us, it's just heartbreaking up the next morning or you wake up and like, okay, I made it through today, I'll kill myself tomorrow. I was just, I was like, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just,

I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just,

I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just,

I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I mean, so my numbers are getting worse, but I'm on my 15 years. So what my would a kidney transplant period, even if you don't have my disease, I think the average of seven years that you can live on it before it starts declining. And from there, it's based on your donor. So all my factors were actually worse because my donor was a woman. So obviously a woman is not going to sustain a man's body, right?

It doesn't work that way. And she is very critique. So it's a smaller kidney. And we almost like she lost her kidney on the table. They told me because she was so critique that our main artery was too short to fit inside me. So they had to take another artery out of mine to make that half or else they would have just put her kidney back in me in her and that would have been it.

So and then about three months after my transplant, I got really, really sick. I got the flu. So the thing about a kidneys, we have to take anti-medicine tissue by the end of the reactor. Yeah, immunosuppressants. Yeah, immunosuppressants. Yeah. So when you get sick, your body amps up to beat off this disease. Well, the problem or the sickness, the flu or whatever,

coughing, colo, whatever. So your body doesn't recognize anything except what it's meant to be in it. So it looks at the kidney as a foreign body. So as I get sick, and my body amps up with these immune to try to build up my immune system is actually attacking the kidney. So what they do is based on how sick I get, they then make a decision that I got to go to hospital and they're trying to kill off the flu without trying to kill the kidney and it's a balance. But it does damage to kidney because they got a winnet.

So when that happens, that weakens the kidney. So anyway, long story short is here I am almost 15 years later and my creatinine level is, I just had it checked actually a couple of days ago, it's 2.7. So 2.7 is not great, but my new number, once I got my kidney transplant became 2.0. Fresh when my kidney was at a strong level. So you only got a .7? .7 and all these years, you have .7, but you know, one of the biggest things that the tell tell sign in, now I'm going to look for with this disease, it's if you're leaking protein.

So now at all these years up until last year, I was leaking zero protein, so now is at plus one, so it's starting to climb. So of course, the kidney is starting to fail, but I mean, after 15 years, I remember talking to the doctors when I was in a hospital and they ran a 24-analyzer, I mean, you were in it for 24 hours,

they took my blood for 24 hours, and I'm like, and I remember them sending them in a room. I'm sick as a dog and I like, you shouldn't be here. And I'm like, yeah, I know. And he goes, no, he goes, your kidneys functioning at 70%. And this is 14 years later, 70% is functioning. He goes, some people don't even function at 70% with both kidneys. And it goes, you know, you know, how does this great? And I go, no, it isn't. It's just a man upstairs. You know, that's just his will. It's not you can do about that. Yeah, whatever, but still, I'm like, whatever to you. I get it. So, I'm not sure what the numbers are now, but I know now I'm leaking, you know, point one where when I had kidney failure, I was at 16 grams, which is deadly.

Well, I'm at one now. So I know it's climbing, but you know, I mean, it never meant to happen. To be here 14 years later when it averages 17, seven years, and here I am going into my 15th year. I still feel fine. I still look good, but I know my numbers. So I know it's coming. You know, I know it's coming, but I've always known that

that it's gonna be coming. I thought it was gonna be a lot sooner. You know, I thought it was gonna be around three years that I've left. You look healthy and you look good, man. You know, I thought it was gonna be around three years that I'm last. You look healthy and you look good, man. That's so cool. That's amazing. Now, and it's just a man upstairs, I mean, yeah.

Now, do you have to, or are you still on HRT, or do you think you're, yeah, yeah. So I can't go off, yeah. I was gonna ask you that, cause that's, so this is something that I fucked with steroids, and I shared this on the show a lot. I fucked with steroids a lot when my early 20s not knowing what I was doing Forever impacted me, but I didn't really it didn't really catch up to me until I turned about 30

And I wouldn't got tested realized that my horrible level that 200 200 Yeah, it was better than mine. Oh wow, you're worse than that 79. Oh wow. Yeah, yeah, I joke he goes your son Who's a three years old? It's more test So, I got a joke, he goes, your son, who's three years old. It's more testosterone. I don't care. You know, my thing was, and I'll let you finish. My thing was, I've been sticking myself

over half my life. I'm good, I don't give a damn. 79, I go, I don't care. And my libido's not as crazy as it was before, but it's said I've never been where it was. I go, I'm comfortable with this, I don't care. Yeah, so the reason why I'm asking this, I'm just curious for myself because I'm still,

so at 30, I went on HRT, 31, or 32-ish, was when I actually decided to compete, and when I competed, that was when I started to ramp my dosage up. So I was taking a very mild dose in my early 30s, and then it got into competing, as I started to ramp up, I started to take a higher dose. And like I said, I never really got over 400 milligrams

of testosterone, which is not very high. But I did consist more than that. Right, right. So they do these days. It's crazy to me. But I did consistently take that, with no breaks or anything for over four or five years. Straight.

Wow, you didn't come off. No. And now I've been off for over a year and trying to naturally bring it back up and I'm still kind of in the floor. I'm not where you at now. I have, so we have an Everly Wells a company that were sponsored by

that does like an at home spit test. And so they don't use the same. They don't use the same, okay. But in their range, I'm considered in the low normal. So I've actually broken to the quote unquote normal. So what I probably think if you were to compare it to the test that we're familiar with, blood where it's 400 to about 1200. I'm probably about 400 now, which that's a big victory for me, although I feel like

shit as far as what I used to. Athletes, their natural levels are higher. That's why they can do crap that other people can't do So your low 400 probably is low to you because you're gifted to be more than that And the same as you know when we're talking about drugs. It's it's funny because I I met Great athletes from some incredible sports. I remember sitting down talking to you know I won't say a guy or a girl with this young person that I remember sitting down talking to, you know, I won't say a guy or a girl with this young person that was, they're in a Wimbledon and they won a few times and we're talking about drugs and we're very comfortable talking to another athlete.

It's just, say, unwritten law unless you're a dick. So we're talking about the stuff I'm using. He's talking about the stuff he's using. I'm like, why? Why would you use that? I understand what every drug does. I'm like, why? Why would you use that? I understand what every drug does.

I'm like, why would you use that? He goes, flex. How do you think tennis is one? That power. He goes power, speed, and endurance. And right when he says that, I'm like, click, click, click, click, click. Those three drugs would do that. And I met people from cross, uh, cross, um, cross,

again, that, uh, cross country skin. I'm like, why same thing? Power, speed, and endurance works. And the same people who run, they drop, they shoot and all that stuff, all these crazy sports, obviously cycling and everything else, but it's, it's just here. It was prevalent. I think it's actually funny that we talk about it.

Yeah, I think it's really funny that, I mean, I'm a, like I was a big, I'm a big Giants fan. I'm pro Barry bonds when that, when he got drunk through the mud over there. I was just like, are you fucking kidding me? I got drunk and I too, Victor Conti is a very close friend of him. So that vocal laboratory, I got called up and all that stuff. So yeah, I never met with Barry,

but I met with so one girl, the track star. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't remember her name. It's a joiner? No, no, no, no. That's the sister. But yeah, I met her and all those people, but you know, it's funny because, hmm,

should I say that? I know. It's my problem, you know, it's funny because, hmm, should I say that or not? It's my plumber's sealer, fuck you off. You know, it's funny because I remember, I don't want to see how I'll find out, but I remember being explained to once the cameras turned off when you were in Victor's place, Baako. Once the cameras turned off and all the film left, the people there that were Enforcing everything once they took off their gear They just sat down and talked to them there as clients. Oh, well, and they're like, man, we're sorry

Wow, we got the call we had to go And it's just it's amazing. It's just hypocritical. It's just yeah, I get more frustrated at the people that they get all Angry about it and putting their two cents in and they probably drink and you probably smoke or do something else Really, and you're gonna try to cut my backyard really right unless you're spotless You have nothing to say yeah, and then you want to put an asterisk by him like take all the credit What that kid probably put into all the years of his life to be as great as you? Yeah, it's just I think as, it's the same as you get it. I don't, well, for men, but I see it more in women,

you know, a woman walks by, she's really great. Ah, you should look like that. Wait till she can have a couple of babies. She'll be just, that's no F and X. You just shit on yourself, that's all. You didn't take care of yourself. You let yourself flop, but you're looking at somebody else and you're blaming them for all the attributes.

No, stop it. I remember back then, you then, we walked into a club and I never, I don't believe in going out. And if I ever did, it'd have to be at least 10 of us because I understood people are stupid. You're going to say, oh, steroids, blah, blah, blah. So you're going to have to fight. So I understood, you know, when one of us walked

through the door, then the next one, we're all 240, oh well, not even that. We're like 293 hundred. So after you see like the fourth person walk through the door and he's three plus, you're not gonna say nothing, right? But you see, I'm great at reading people. So you see the guy, you know, he's sit with a bunch of girl, he leans over,

set a girl, look at, and then you lean over, blah, blah, blah, and you're like this, I'm like, so I'll just be a dick. I'll walk him like, hey, really? I go, so you think my nuts are small, right? Let her find out. So, and then I like, I'm just saying nothing,

like you know what you just proved your punk? Because your girls know what you really said and they're seeing how you are right now. So now you're exploiting yourself as being a little bitch. And I just walk away, but you just got guys, this, so what happened is, it wasn't about the steroid, it's just, they felt inferior.

Yeah. And because you pointed out something not the steroid, it's just they felt inferior. Yeah. And because you pointed out something not meaning to, but he just looked at you and identified to you and he felt inferior, he's on, it's human nature. You gotta be a really strong individual. Look at another person, like, God dang, man, you look great. That's a real person, that's a real woman,

that's a real guy. It's just don't happen at all. Well, I think people need to realize, we've done episodes on this, but I could take all the gear in the world, and I wouldn't look as good as a top pro bodybuilder when they're natural. And I can train all day long,

you're saying both, and I'm still gonna be asked dirt slow. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. I wanna take you another direction right now, and you said, I'm gonna back you up, because you said something great earlier on, and I want you to elaborate on it before I take you the other direction. You said that I don't see color

There's only good people yeah and bad people Yeah, and I think that's really special and unique coming from someone like you that's probably dealt with discrimination and things like that I want you to elaborate where you're from wasn't that like the cool class clan? There was a KK 14, yeah, yeah, F 14s, yeah, but the KKK, the police officer, I witnessed to my older brother being beaten a lot by police officer and I would just stand there and he would just like, run, can you just run, don't and I'm, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm a little kid, but I want to jump in here and try to help him. He's just getting

this ass dump, you know, and I'm like, and he would just like, no, just just turning away. But to help him. He's just getting his ass dumped. And he would just like, no, just turning it well. But what I recognize, it's just because you have some officers who are bad, they don't make all of them bad. It's a very honorable thing. And that's why I want to become one. When everyone's running away, they're running torch. They're the worst person you want to see.

You don't want to see them at all. Fuck you off their peak, but you got a problem who you calling. You know, so I respect that. and at a young age, I understood that just like I understood all white people aren't bad. And when they betray all black people, bad, all black people aren't bad, but I know some, right? So I again, identified is just good, there's a bad, you know, good and bad

police officers, good and bad white people, black people, I've had worse happen to me from black people than I have white people. So I just understand that there's just good and bad. So I find it, I find it, here's, when I see stuff like that, like right now, what's happening right now with Kaepernick and Nike. Here's, yeah, here and by the way, we talked about this whole bit there.

That's what I knew I really liked. I really liked, like, but here's the thing, it talked about this a little bit. Yeah, that's what I knew. I really liked it. I really liked it. But here's the thing. It's like, you have a situation that happens. But then you have politicians and people with power who use that situation to separate everybody as much as they possibly can because when you can separate people, they're easier to manipulate. You can pick them off.

Absolutely. So a guy like Kaepernick, who is peacefully protesting, whether you agree with him or not, that's what he's doing. He's peacefully protesting. But politicians are turning it into, it's against cops or it's against the military. So now you've got like these two camps and people feel like they have to take a side. Yeah. Like you either like the military or your pro minority or pro military. It's like you can be both. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like you either like the military or you or your pro minority or pro military.

It's like you can be both. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, yeah. So yeah, I, I, I, I, I seen the post. I actually a friend of mine showed me the post like, oh my god, I was eating at the protein house and one of the owners show me like, oh my god, are you kidding? So I'm like, fine, I need to find a picture. So I found it. And I posted it. And yeah, it went viral, and it was very controversial. And it illuminated something I already knew. They say, here in the United States, we have a right to protest, freedom of speech, freedom of expression. I've always known that was a lie.

And I've done under the post that I got ripped apart about, and I just, I find it interesting that some of the messages I got, I got some military people saying, hey, you know, FU, you know, you don't support the military, I don't support your officers or, you know, don't piss on a flag and all that. And I'm like, exactly when did I say that? And I didn't respond to everybody because it's just, I think is over 400 comments now. But like, exactly when did I say that? So they're identifying to me and cap

because I guess cap me up set some negative things about officers that were pigs on a socks for. I respect him and I stand behind him for the stance that he's taking about equality. Sure. So just because I represent him or I respect him on that, I have to respect him on all his views. That's really interesting because I respect officers,

but I don't respect all officers because of their views, because I know there's good and there's bad that's happened, it's proven. So, if I have to take a side and a person's done bad things and good things that it makes me a part of all that, then I guess I shouldn't respect any officers because bad things happen. I guess I shouldn't respect any military

because bad things have happened. I guess I shouldn't respect our military because bad things have happened. I guess I shouldn't respect our flag because bad things have happened. I guess I shouldn't respect an accidental anthem because I know the real first anthem that was written when it had slaves in it. I don't know if you guys do, but you can research it. When the British came over, the United States already had slaves, and the British said, hey, listen, any of you slaves who want to be free come fight with us and you'll be free forever. And that's what happened.

So none of that bothers me because I understand that I can respect a person for one part of what he's saying and not the next other thing. It doesn't make everybody wrong. And now I've been balled up that I'm anti-American and I even have my team look at it and as of right now lost over 600 followers because of it. And I'm like, that and I even have my team look at it right now. Lost over 600 followers because of it. And I'm like, that doesn't bother me.

You know, the way I look at it, whether you agree or not, I mean, I'm not a big cappernick fan, I'm not a big football fan period. I don't really watch the sport. And I'm not a huge cappernick fan just because I saw him wear a a cheque, rev'ara shirt. And you know, that to me seems ignorant. I heard about that too. Yeah, but here's the thing, you know, I have a very good, very, very close friend

who's a veteran and he told me he goes, look, the very reason why I served is to fight for people's right to protest. So whether I agree with them or not, I will always fight for someone's right to be able to do that. Now, of course, the NFL's a private organization. They can fire him over it as well. But I just think it's funny how, well, I took people divide so strong.

Yeah. I actually took the opposite side with the intent of stirring the pot. Yeah. So I actually, I posted a Pat Tillman meme that people had already gone viral and I already knew there was a bunch of it triggered a ton of people and I wrote, I wrote under it, I said, uh, better, um, I said, better, say message, say message, better man. And then I did a funny meme on Capric,

knowing damn well what I was going to do. And I stirred everybody up who started sending stuff to me. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not choosing military here and I'm not choosing what he stood up for. In fact, I'm pro at Capric, I think that's awesome that he stood up for that, right? What I'm trying to unveil to everybody that's listening and watching me on Instagram is the last post

that I did after that, which was when I showed how much Nike is getting right now from all the advertising. Exactly. 48 million, which is more money than Kaepernick is gonna get paid. So Nike use Capronik as a pawn in this situation, and they really don't give a fuck about his cause. I don't care how they pitch it and they say they care about making money.

That's their business and they're supposed to. Meanwhile, they're dividing all of us as a nation. And here we are. I agree. And even having this conversation because of it. Exactly. Oh, you're pro him. I agree. And even having this conversation because of it. Exactly. Oh, you're pro him. I'm pro them and we're getting into this debate.

Meanwhile, everyone's talking about Nike who slid their name into a conversation that they didn't even belong into. And so that was the reason why I did that because I am. I'm pro him being able to stand up. I'm pro what he was standing up for, but I'm also pro, the NFL letting him go because it's just like, and I gave the analogy that if one of my employees who's supposed to show up at eight o'clock in work every single day decided to not come to work as a protest for a cause that he believes in, his ass is probably get fired.

Even if I believe he's got a good cause, I respect the cause, I respect the, but I also, this is my business. And you hurt me financially. Kaepernick hurt the NFL financially, big time. Can we blame them for firing him or not allowing him to play? It's either or so. Me, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree.

I understand and I have the ability easily to say, I agree or less agree that we disagree and move on. That's how I am. So people who set negative things, that's fine, agree that we disagree and move on. That's how I am. So people who have said negative things, that's fine. You have that right to do that. If you disagree with me, that's fine. Did you have the right to do that?

I'm everybody. So my real people who know me know that I'm pro-military, know that I'm behind a military, know that I'm behind, I've traveled all over the world for the military, know that I was a police officer and how I speak. I already said, listen, I got into it because it's the most honorable thing to do yet.

I watch people get beaten up and but doesn't make all of them, you know, bad. So that don't really bother me and the people who do not follow me, you know, or say, you know what, I've lost our respect for you. That's fine because I understand now you never respected me because you don't even know who I am. And here we are, it's supposed to be in the United States and you respect me because of my views are different than yours. You're actually worse than the people that were fighting against. And this last beautiful thing is, you know, I have a friend

and I won't say his name, but done some interesting, interesting, interesting thing for the military. You know, he's retired now. And, you know, because he got injured, but just some great, interesting things, you know, we train together every once in a while. And he goes, I hate cap. He goes, but I respect what the fuck he said. He goes, that shit has nothing to do with the flag, has nothing to do with the officer. He goes, they're spinning all that stuff in his stupid.

And I watch how people slander you and beat you up. And he goes, I just laugh at it. He goes, but just know from me, we know it has nothing to do with the flag of us. And the last thing I'll say, as I think the joke that I sent to you is, you know, Nike is being boycotted by a lot of Americans because they put cap as their 30th year face or whatever. Yet the Catholic has been raping kids for centuries.

Yet they haven't been boycotted. Fact, okay. So like you said, Kaepernick is peacefully doing, you have a organization, very powerful organization that has been raping kids for centuries. They just had that huge case in Pennsylvania. Yeah, like something like a thousand, thousand children affected in like 300 priests.

Yeah, I mean, the Pope is not even saying anything about it. And so, and here here United States is getting mad at this one guy because he says you know what you know why because we're told to be angry about that. Yeah, you know any and you're ignorant not to take your own stand instead of so you know I've gotten people like you know it flexed I don't agree with you. I mean I disagree with you and I point but I respect you for sending for what you believe in and I'm like, Hey man, great, I respect you too. So it should be able to be done. That's what America's supposed to be about.

But that post in your post proves that. We're not really that. No, man, I tell you what, whether you agree with Cap or not, the most American thing you could possibly do is peaceful, civil disobedience. That is in our fabric. So now you remember, you remember the,

and I trust me, this is all connected because we're all around the same age. You remember the and I trust me this is all connected because we're all around around the same age You remember that I am about to say well, I think you're a little older. You remember the you remember the cold We're all really look it's a good night. I don't look that you remember the Cola Wars right Pepsi versus Coke Oh, yeah, people a lot of people don't realize that Pepsi and Coke behind closed doors organized that I could and they came out with the ads my My ours is better than theirs. And what it did is it took away shares from seven up and sprite and all the other. It made them to concentrate. Because it made people think they had to pick between only two choices. And this is

the game that they're playing right now. You're told you need to care about or that you need to pick a side with with Kaepernick. You're told that there's only two sides but in reality the same it's two sides of the same coin. It's the same people pulling the strings and they want us to divide and separate when in reality People really don't want to divide and separate we want to we all kind of want to work together And they that's the worst that's the biggest thing that if we all come together listen It's interesting that you know a point is the the national anthem I think I forgot how many years ago that the military paid for that to happen for the sport because it didn't have used to happen.

That's right. If you don't remember that. So it was never nothing political or American about it. It was a business. They paid them to do that. People don't know that. Here's the thing. They say, okay, you should stand for the national.

What I understand is Kaepernick used to sit down for the NASA and ask them, but one of his buddies in the military said, you know, I don't do that. Just go ahead and take a knee so you don't disrespect nobody. Only when he took a knee, they started thinking it was disrespectful. Here's my point on that. So you supposed to stand for the NASA and ask them to be quiet, take care of your hat off. And if you don't, it's disrespectful. So the people out there are tailgating, they don't stop drinking, they don't take their hats off,

they're still allowed. All the dickheads who are disrespecting people because of their beliefs or the way they think about it. When they're at home, watching that damn game, they don't stand up, take their hat off, stop drinking. So it's really, so I wanna say that to everybody who's against anyone who said hey You should stand or is this do you stand at your home? How about other sports when they play their NASA NASA

Do you stand up do you stop talking do you know you don't it come on man? That's a bunch of yes well all these people that are that are taking their shoes and burning them and all of a sudden They care you know what it's like why don't you give those shoes to like a homeless veteran? Yes, it's all about money and power. When's the last time you went to a villa on who's the one who's making out on all this stuff? It ain't about the cause. It ain't about the military. It's about exploiting this whole situation. That's the, that's the unfortunate. And what you're saying, you know, if it's true about Nike using cap as a pawn,

what I do is I take back strategic war view is Kappernick had to be that because he got his message out to a greater, so is it a pawn for him? Even though Nike and I'd be looking at it, you got to look at your position because of that and empowered him to have this conversation and billions of people to respond. power to him to have this conversation and billions of people to respond, you know, and it. The thing I wonder though now with when we do protests like this and the awareness and because it stuff moves so fast and because very not as many people can have a rational intelligent conversation like this, sometimes I wonder if it does as much harm as it does good. You know, I'll use this analogy and this is a really bad one.

Well, I don't use it. Because it's volatable. It's, I'll use two, you know, worse ugly, but sometimes not all the words that we've been in, I'm not going to get into that, but worse horrible and ugly. But if it didn't happen and awareness wouldn't happen and change wouldn't that came, right? Millions of people die. It's unfortunate that that had to happen for that change to come because if not, it would have continued as usual. And nothing would have been done. So that's that's perceptive on what you're

saying. And I remember this this one officer in Los Angeles was going around. You guys remember he was going around, you guys remember, he was going around sniping and killing all the people. That started because he was offended. You know, when he was in a car, he was called to Ann word. While he was in a car with another other officers and he got upset and went to fight over it and they made them feel bad about it

and he was continuously treated a certain way as a black person. So he went off and did something that I don't agree with. He started killing innocent people and officers and everything. I don't agree with that. Take the fight to the person. You know, don't do that. But how ugly that was, that would have never came out unless you took that ugly ass stance. And because of that ugly stance, things were rectified later on. So it's sad that you got to resort to some heinous ass crime for people to stand up and acknowledge it. You know, war and I mean, slavery and all the hangings and horrible things that I've heard about. Tarn feather, really, Tarn feather. Imagine that

you're alive and they pour a heart tower over you. So you're cooking and baking and screaming and then as a joke, they put feathers on you. You know, being hung with your private, you know, subdued him off after. Imagine all those things, but all those things had to happen for us to even be acknowledged as equals. It's sad. So a lot of times it's sad that these really ungodly things have to happen for people to stand up and take notice. So it's perfect. It's perception. Is it perception that is bad because the people had to went through that?

Or is it perception that is bad because it changed for the people who didn't? Well, violence is the, what is it? The phrase, violence is the language of those without, we don't have a voice who can't speak. And I think it was Martin Luther King that said something like that. I'm sure I'm butchering it, but I get it. Yeah, I mean, and you know, here's a deal. What's happening now is a result of,

because we've had like a bunch of videos, because the internet allows information to be shared very quickly. And I like that, but it does cause a lot of controversy. But it's okay because things change. You know what's happening now? Police, lots of police stations now are putting body cameras on people, required to wear them. And what's interesting about this is, you know, because people are being recorded, you

have less instances of issues. But you also have a lot of police officers who are also getting rectified as well. Yeah, I agree with that. I do too. I talked to some of my buddies, so it's still police officer now, like, you know what? I don't care about it, because what it's gonna do is prove you right.

Yep, because the only people are pissed about it and his analogy is the people that's gonna prove you wrong. So, if I was in a situation and it's known here in the United States, you can get sued for anything, person in a car wreck and you help pull them off the car and they turn around and sue you because they're back broke. I mean, but if you had a camera to prove

that their back was broke, I would have proved you right. So it's sad about that, you know, but I think it's necessary and it should have happened and you know, technology or cameras and everything. Imagine all the lies that could have went through. Like the one guy, I remember seeing a video where the police officer shot him going to the car.

And as the guy tried to drive away, he shot him, continue and killed him. That police officer could have said, hey, he took fire or took a, aggressive, it would have never been known. I've seen the other video where the kids running. It caught put three in his back. He could have said that he, you know,

threw a gun down or something like that. That would never would have been, so it's sad that it's to that point. But no, the real sadness is, it's sad that point. And it's been happening. So imagine how many things would have been, took care of before if the camera was there. So it's just, it's sad that where there I remember,

you know, after I retire from being a police officer, I accidentally retire. I got laid off, I was with the sheriff. So sheriff is the county money comes in and goes off. So I got laid off and went into bodybuilding and never had to go back. But as a pro bodybuilder, I remember getting pulled over and I could see that I'm an officer.

I'm still aware of everything. So I know I'm speeding. So I'm speeding and I'm like, I'm looking at my moon off. Is this speed like an idiot? Imagine that, right? Cause I'm an idiot'm speeding. So I'm speeding and I'm like, I'm looking at my mirror like, who know, fuck is this speed? I'm like an idiot. Imagine that, right? Cause I'm an idiot for speeding. And I see the car I can tell,

cause the car's going like this. That means it's traveling at a high speed, cause it's bouncing up and down. I'm like, who is this idiot? And as it gets closer, it's an unmarked car with two police officers. And I'm like, crap, all right. So I'm pulling up to a light.

I know I'm caught already. So I just make a turn and stop right there. So I'm sitting and I'm looking at my rear view mirror and his guy is anxious, so he's getting his jet. He knows his seat belt off and he grabs his gun and he's coming to my car with his gun, John. I'm like, so I'm right in public. So he says, roll your windows on.

I roll both windows down. And I put my hands on my stern wall. He goes, reach for your license. I go my license to send my glove compartment. He goes, well, don't move too fast. I might accidentally shoot you. I just like, fuck. This is how that happens. So I'm in public. So, and there's a lot of people around and they recognize my car and everything. So people are yelling, hey, flex, you alright? I'm like, no, I'm not alright. Stay right there, man. Watch this. So then he goes to my front windshield and all I can do is look down a barrel that I'm like

I'm just staring down this empty thing like wow he goes go ahead Reach for it. I go okay So I'm gonna reach in my glove compartment with my two fingers I'm gonna grab my wallet and pull it off and he goes go ahead real slow and I put it down and He looks at my license and Why are we speeding I'm gonna grab my wallet and pull it out. And it goes, go ahead, real slow. And I put it down and he looks at my license and why are we speeding? I'm like, why are you doing a phone? He's stopping me. He goes, what are you talking about?

Can why are you doing a phone? He's stopping me. He goes, no, I didn't. I go, hey, you did. You came out with your gun, thrown out. I go, I'm not answering, shit, I'm not saying shit. I want your commander here. Whoever's your commander, I want him here now.

So like six cars pull up within an hour and they're all arguing behind. So the leading officer walks up to him and he's like, you know, what happened? I go, where your officer said the reason he did if only he stopped is because my windows, you know, because I was too, I was a real big guy in a car. I'm like, oh, because my windows are tenant and he said that he pulled his gun because my windows, you know, because I was too ill, I was a real big guy in a car. I'm like, oh, because my windows are tenant.

And he said that he pulled his gun because my windows are tenant and he didn't know it was in a car. So that's a lie. He goes, okay, I guess the way he do a felony stop when he goes, he did a felony stop ago, you know he did. He came out with his gun drunk. Well, he fear it for a safety, I go, why?

Because you're a big in a car, yet my windows are tenet. And that's what he said, OK, so I'm a big guy in a car. So that's why he did a felony stop. I'm like, OK, he goes, well, you thought your car was stolen because you're driving fast. All right. OK. That's that.

So if only he stopped, he never asked me for my weapon. He never secured my car. He never put me out, prown me down, handcuffed me, and then checked my car. So this whole time, I could still have my weapon in my car and kill all you guys. Because it's a felony stop, right? He then checked my car. So this whole time I could still have my weapon in my car and kill all you guys Because it's a felony stop, right? He never checked the car. I'm like nah

Can I check the car? I'm like sure let it be known your ass gonna check the car an hour after the event So long story short we got into it and I went down and followed a place or reporting everything But that's happened to me a number of times. It's happened to me by being at $125,000 a car, you know, at 12 o'clock in the afternoon, picking up somebody from the airport, me being an ass blasting my music, because I was in back in the 90s and having an arse of yell at me, hey, turn that rock and music down. Not being asked, huh? I can't hear you. My music too loud, you know.

So they pull out the gun and they're walking up to me. So I'm like, turn your music down. I'm like, okay, I couldn't hear you. my music too loud. So they pull out the gun and they walk up to me, so I'm like, turn your music down. Okay, I couldn't hear you, my music's real loud. So after we get to talking and he finds out that I'm, it was an officer, they put the gun in there, host her and start talking, no, no, no, no. Pull your gun back out and continue to treat me

like the asshole that you thought it was, because I'm that asshole, right? But it's looking at a person based on what they're driving, or the acting and profiling that they're this character. You can't judge about by its cover. Yeah, that's it's got to be one of the one of the most difficult jobs to do. I it is. You know, because it's like you could be frightened or terrified or you have different ideas

or you're having in a bad mood or and you have the legal authority to use force to use lethal force escalated force. So if a person don't have a weapon, you can go to your baton. If they have a weapon, you can go to your gun. It's not escalated. You know, they say they can't fear for the life. And that's one of the bad things I don't think

all officers spend time in jail because you learn how to use or you know, deal with a person without no weapons, and whatsoever. But it is an extremely difficult job. You have to walk up to a car knowing you might be just pulling a person over for a broken time. I just want to let you know you and you get shot in the face.

So it is difficult. You know, like I said, when everyone's hating you, when you pull up beside him, you might just, Hey, how you doing? And they're like, fuck you, man. But when something goes wrong, that's who you calling. Right. You know, when something really, really bad happens, you're running and they're running to it. So it's a double-edged sword, but my argument is this as an officer, and when I chose to

be an officer, I chose to do that. I chose to put myself in harm's way. I chose to run towards danger away from it, and I'm actually paid to do it. It's my job. So don't make excuses or be a dick when you're doing your job and you run into another dick. If that was, if that dick or that crime didn't happen, you wouldn't have a job.

And you asked, you went to school and you were educated to do this job. Don't turn around like all these down criminals and get heartened over it. You chose to do that. I just don't get it and you're getting paid to do that. So when you see or when you have a situation like that and you think back and we talk about the cavernic thing and police brutality, do you think it's, do you think we have more

of a problem with bad people in those positions and maybe power tripping or do you think we have more of a race problem? I... Well, I can say one thing, you know, I'm racist. I believe in my own race. I just gotta come up and say that. I believe in my own race. I believe my race was put on his earth through all over us. Everyone else.

The human race. I believe in that race. I see no other race. I am. That was good. I've used that race. I see no other race. Yeah, that was good. I've used that before. You had it for a second. Oh shit, this podcast is certain. I've actually, when I do keynote speak and I use that, but I go a little deeper. I normally say, you know what?

I want everyone from my race to stand up and clap their hands and go, and they'd stand up, you know, all of course all the black people stand up and go crazy What I've done is I've exploited everyone I've exploited everyone who stood up and I exploited everyone who sat down Whether you sat down or not you proven to me that you're not a part of my race and you don't get it You see difference if you stood up You proven to me that you don't see what I'm saying and you see race as different. That's my whole point in doing that. So normally I go into it deeper, but I am a part of human race.

That's the only race I see. Now I'm saying that as far as officers, it's not meant to be a job. It's a career. A job is McDonald's, Burger King. It's not meant to be a job. It's a career. A job is McDonald's, Burger King. It's not meant to be a job. And I'm dyslexic, horribly, horribly dyslexic. I'm most fun, I'm a func police academy three times because of my dyslexia. Yet I had these other people who are very, very, very booksmarked. Couldn't even do a push-up. Couldn't shoot worth a ship.

And I'd be like, there's no way in a world that I have you going through my back. So I think it's because a lot of people choose to do this job because they're smart enough, but they're not dedicated as a career. They're meant to be put on this earth to help people to run towards danger when every person or running from it. And I think it's more exploited now because of cameras, but come on. It's always been going on.

What would happen I heard in New York what the one black guy, he's in jail, and he dies by being assaulted by a broomstick stuck up his butt. There was no cameras to that though, right? Come on, this crap has been going on. And I'm not just, so the other thing about the cap thing, I already said, I don't see

color. This isn't a black or white problem. This is a human problem. All of us should be treated with equality. All of us should have all equal rights. Regardless of your color, create, or financial standing. That's my big argument. It's not a black or white thing because white people are treated just as bad.

Brown people are treated, guess is bad. We should all be treated as equal. I don't care if you're freaking, you know, freaking gay with three and tenors coming out to hear and you know, from Mars. Hey, man, if you're human being, you should be treated as such. I'm with you. I think people should be treated as individuals. And if you're cool, I'm cool with you.

If you're not, I don't like you. And that's just about it. I don't really don't care where you come from. Well, I'll tell you what man. It's it's been a pleasure talking to you on the podcast It's been great having here. Thank you. I truly truly appreciate it You know, it's not it's not the pleasure for you guys. It's a pleasure that you know you guys think this This person has something to say of any value and that's truly the the the pleasure. I mean, being invited here, being invited anywhere all over the world, you know, people always say, well, it's a pleasure that you just see me as a person and I have something, you know, something to say and I have, you know,

some important, so whatever to offer to people, that's the true pleasure. My pleasure and I go back to again, that's all that people want. It's to be treated as equal, whether you're black, white, straight, gay, lesbian, whatever they just want to be accepted. So the pleasure is really mine to be accepted by you guys. I appreciate it, much appreciated, Flex. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump.

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