Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 865: Stan Efferding- The World's Strongest Bodybuilder

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Did you guys enjoy that withstand, stand coming by? What a great guy, huh? He's a great guy. He's a very cool guy, very smart. He's a smart dude and one of the better business people in the muscle building world. Just a great, we had a great conversation with great podcasts.

Starting point is 00:00:29 I think went for two hours. Another like smart meathead looking guy, you know, it's great to hang out with guys that are also like big guys that are just like, you know, giving us a better name. I think we found almost all of them. Yeah, I think we found all of them. He was like the last one. You know, unicorns of combined here. Now we hit it off with the guy right out the gates and had a great podcast with him. We talked about his past, his training, how he coaches people,

Starting point is 00:00:55 his his philosophy towards nutrition. He talked a little bit about the vertical diet, which is a kind of his nutrition protocol that we've had a lot of people asking about this. That was part of the motivation because we had been in communication back and forth a while ago. And we had been getting hit up so much on like us wanting, people wanting us to address this diet. And I would just be honest, been too lazy to dive into it to you know, talk about it and stuff.

Starting point is 00:01:21 And so the fuck, we'll just bring them on the show. I'm not gonna lie, I was dismissive before I ever looked into it, you know, I kind of judged it at first. And not because of Stan, I like Stan, he's a smart dude. But because of so many diets, we'll just the name diet. Yeah, immediately turns me off. But in this episode, you'll hear Stan talk about his philosophy towards nutrition.

Starting point is 00:01:38 And here you have a, you know, right now, he's, how much is he weighing out, 250 pounds? He's a big dude, 50 year old guy. Used to get, used to weigh 270 pounds. Super strong guy. You're this guy talking about gut health, the microbiome, micro nutrients, and a lot of the stuff that we talk about on the show. So it's really refreshing to hear someone like him,

Starting point is 00:01:57 talk about those things in the context of building maximum muscle and strength. Well, it's kind of like what you always say. It's at one point we all kind of end up in the same place. It's true. So there's some people out there in the space right now and some really intelligent people that are denying some of this stuff

Starting point is 00:02:14 because maybe we don't have quite enough evidence to be 100% certain that this is a cause of this or this react this way. But those of us that have been doing this for long enough and you've coached and trained enough people, you've seen enough case studies and examples of that just through your own experience with clients. And, you know, we all kind of end up in the same place like, oh shit, what do you know? When I eat these processed garbage foods and stuff like that, sure, I can get in shape

Starting point is 00:02:40 and sure I look okay and, you know, I can manage that when I'm in my 20s but good to 10 20 30 years of that and you know and he kind of shares that his story too because he doesn't he doesn't admit being this guy who's was presenting this information his entire career I mean he kind of found that out through a lot of trial and do things the wrong way like ourselves. He coaches some of the you know he doesn, he helps the nutrition with the, what's his name with the big or be argonsen. Yes. Some of the top crossfit athletes and has helped improve their performance tremendously.

Starting point is 00:03:13 He also has, so with his vertical diet, he's come out now with vertical diet meals. And these are, we must get probably on a weekly basis, a dozen messages from people who ask us for good recommendations for meal prep companies. Yeah. This is where they deliver, you know, meal prep companies will deliver like a meal already ready to your door many times frozen, sometimes fresh or whatever. You get the meal and it's got your, you know, it's all counted out for your macros and everything's set up, right?

Starting point is 00:03:44 It makes it easy. And I've just never found any that I really like. Well after talking with Stan on the episode and hearing his philosophies around nutrition, you know, we're going to give his meals a try. You're definitely going to give him a try. And yeah, well, we created, we had him create a link for all of you guys. Then those that have been asking and that we're looking for something, we've created a link so you guys can go directly to that and order the meals and man I'm excited

Starting point is 00:04:09 I'm excited to try I for sure I tell you right now when I was competing this would have been a thing I would have loved to have had I mean if you had this already going convenience factors easily digestible food that's what he focuses on easily digestible food because he realized if you can digest something you minimize gut inflammation you can maximize the simulation build more muscle, burn more body fat and optimize your hormones and so the meals are all based on that right and so we did get ourselves an affiliate link if you go to mind pump media dot com forward slash vertical then you can take a look at all these meals and there'll be a direct link in the show now, too, because I know that's probably going to be tough. It may just be Sal's face only. Watch out. Yeah, we had changed the picture. It's not optimized for the phone.

Starting point is 00:04:53 It's just me in the middle there. It's just looking tough. His ambercrombies. Yeah, I know how small. Oh, they're all post-hol. Yeah, I had a pump. I had a pump that's why. That was Doug's shirt.

Starting point is 00:05:03 But anyway, also, you know, I do want to mention September, we have launched our newest maps program, Maps Strong. It's our Strongman inspired fitness program. Fantastic for building strength, stamina, and boosting your metabolism. It's a great metabolism boosting program. It is relatively advanced, but it is awesome. You can find it at mapsstrong.com. Now for those of you who have different goals or maybe you're not quite as advanced, we

Starting point is 00:05:32 have other maps programs you can take a look at, or bundles, for example, are Super Bundle, which combines multiple maps programs and puts them in an order where you follow them one at a time for a full year. So it's literally one year of exercise programming. It's called the Super Bundle, but we have others as well. You can find all of those at maps, fitnessproducts.com, and without any further ado, here we are talking to Stan Efferdin, the Rhino. So Stan, pleasure having you on the show.

Starting point is 00:06:04 Thank you. Huge fan yours. Your known as one of the more business savvy bodybuilders, obviously known as being one of the strongest bodybuilders in the history of bodybuilding. Not one of the, right? Yeah. You're very outspoken, very honest,

Starting point is 00:06:21 tend to not to shy away from things. Very interesting individual. I wanna know, I wanna go back. I wanna know what got you here, like what got you started with all this? And I know you had a sports background growing up, like what got you into bodybuilding and then the business of it?

Starting point is 00:06:37 Were you insecure like the rest of us? Yep, I'm curious. I already caught 100 pounds in high school. So 100? Yes, I wrestled 108 as a freshman in sophomore, one of five in the junior. You might win on the smallest guy. Originally, because I was like 150,

Starting point is 00:06:52 Sal, you were like 130, right? No, no, I graduated at 190, but I had started lifting at 14, so. Yeah, well, it didn't work for me. And when I got to college, I was 135, and I couldn't bench 135. I had to take the 45 pound plates off. And I know how embarrassing that was, because there was about 15 fat boys. I couldn't bench 135. I had to take the 45 pound plates off. And I know how embarrassing that was

Starting point is 00:07:06 because there was about 15 fat boys. I remember being this kid. I was 20 years old and benching the 25s, I'd be saying all I wanted was the big wheels. Like let me get to the big wheels. That was an accomplishment with time. Who to thought? It was just a matter of,

Starting point is 00:07:19 just so I could get like the water to move when it went down my body instead of straight. It actually moved a little bit, no chest, sunken chest. But it was really, it was just a matter of, I used to call it insecurity or whatever, I just wanted to be jacked. And that's kind of how the whole thing started. And I always had this, I've talked before,

Starting point is 00:07:42 I've had this OCD personality growing up. I counted all my steps and I was subject to these repetitive behaviors, ticks and the like. And I did an interview recently with Dave Palumbo and people were calling me out on my ticks, thinking I was on crack or something. Oh, really? Yeah, every now and then they emerge. I was a sniffer, chronic, all my friends used to think I was on coke or something. Oh really? Yeah, every now and then they emerge. I was a sniffer, chronic, all my friends used to think I was a cook or something.

Starting point is 00:08:08 I had these repetitive behaviors. People who know me recognize it and they're nice enough not to bring it up, but as a kid, of course, you're always trying to hide these weirdness. But the benefit of that was, is those repetitive behaviors made me a great bodybuilder and powerlifter, because that's all that's about. Yeah. Is really just every single day counting things, you know, sets, reps, meals, sleep, everything. So I wrote everything down and I just started cranking away and it took a long, long time, obviously, but and the same thing in business.

Starting point is 00:08:39 Repetitive behaviors. People think it's about home runs, it's about singles, it's fingers. Every single day wake up and you do your little checklist. And that's the way I've been able to be successful both in bodybuilding and powerlifting from someone who probably wouldn't be considered necessarily genetically inclined at my size. My pops is $5, $10, $60. But you overcome that with just consistency and determination repetitive behaviors So that's kind of really sums it up is that I was just

Starting point is 00:09:10 OCD and just chronically Repeated the same things that I thought would gonna we're gonna work so true consistency is the most absolute most important thing And now when when people tend to develop patterns Like you said at OCD-type patterns, many times they'll say it's because it gives them a feeling of control, because maybe their lives feel chaotic. Was that true for you? Did you have a chaotic life?

Starting point is 00:09:36 Did you feel like that maybe was a way for you to gain control or was it not that? Yeah, I don't know that it was chaotic necessarily, but I didn't like the uncertainty. And I still don't. I have to do my budget and I have to have my checklist. I haven't competed in five or six years. I say, I still have a checklist. I check my weight every single morning and I've got all these little things that I do on a daily basis, whether it's my 10 minute walks or my vitamin D or my meal, frequency, and

Starting point is 00:10:03 timing. I run around now telling everybody to get thermos so they can pack their monster mash and thermos so they can have their meal every three to four hours or whatever their schedule is. And so now that I've been traveling so much over the last year, I've been in 10 or 11 countries and 20 states and probably the last nine months. And the biggest benefit to me is that I have these patterns, these behaviors where I'm always scheduling my meals, prepping them, taking them with me.

Starting point is 00:10:33 I've got four or five thermos if I'm going to be gone for 12 hours and I've got frozen meals in my checked luggage if I'm flying to Canada or to the UK or wherever. And so that's all taken care of. And now I can relax, now I can focus. It was one of the reasons I hired and trained with Flex was I could turn my brain off. And he would manage all of that for me. And all I had to do was go in and focus on training and just set up my schedule of nutrition and meals, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:11:00 That's very common with successful individuals that they have, the routines that they're very consistent about. It's a super, super common trait that you see with successful athletes and entrepreneurs and business people. Wearing the same clothes every day. Yeah, something like that. See, there you go, guys.

Starting point is 00:11:17 Make a fun of my clothes. That I'm almost there. I'm this close to wearing the same shoes. No, I'm not mad. I have to have the color coordinated t-shirts and I wear the same damn thing every day. Now it's my get vertical shirt. If you look at any picture of me in the last five months, it's I'm wearing the same damn shirt and I've got like six of them and that's how my brain works. If there's a different one in there than I'm confused for

Starting point is 00:11:35 it, it takes me a while. You're making me feel so much better right now. But when you first, when you started working out, did your body respond quickly? When did you realize that you had potential for the sports of strength or bodybuilding? Not at all. Here's the reason why is because back then we didn't have the information we have now. Everything was the guy behind the counter. He was dieting for bodybuilding shows. That was your bodybuilder. He was dieting on boneless, skinless chicken breast and broccoli and egg whites and white

Starting point is 00:12:04 fish. a boneless skinless chicken breast and broccoli and egg whites and whitefish. And so you started eating like that or I did, and rice cakes. And it's no wonder I wasn't able to gain any mass. Plus you went down and you got Arnold Schwarzenegger's and Psychopheed Body Building and started hammering away six days a week, two plus hours a day. I did the same shit. Yeah, so you didn't realize all I was doing was breaking down muscle tissue and not rebuilding it. And it wasn't for, wait all I was doing was breaking down muscle tissue and not rebuilding it and it wasn't for

Starting point is 00:12:25 It was a couple three years my first competition. I weighed one 58 it was the 160 and under competition And was this bodybuilding like bodybuilding. Yeah, I took me 10 years to get strong enough to power lift I was just I presumed that the stronger I got the bigger I would get now I've since learned that's not the case, but back then that's what I thought And so I was doing singles and I wonder I wasn't growing. I wasn't eating enough and I was training too much So the same problem if I knew then what I know now obviously we had done that very different and after a few years I did come across someone who reversed those things for me trained less often we ate more And then I started to be able to gain weight as a result

Starting point is 00:13:04 What was one of the big it like the first paradigm? and we ate more. And then I started to be able to gain weight as a result. What was one of the big, like the first paradigm, I guess, changing moments with your training? Was it just a less workouts or the, like you said, the more food? What was, did you have any of those moments? We were like, oh shit. It was a combination of the two.

Starting point is 00:13:17 I started noticing that I was actually getting stronger because I was training a little less often. I had more recovery time. You don't grow in the gym as the article I wrote many years ago, which I learned 27 years ago from a friend of mine, so told me that you don't grow in the gym. And I was like, really? I thought lifting weights made you bigger.

Starting point is 00:13:36 And he had to educate me that, no, that's not the case. That's the stimulus that said, so you break down muscle tissue. And it was a combination, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum. It's a symphony and orchestra. And that's why in my vertical diet, I've got sleep hydration, training, nutrition. You can't do any one by itself. And the absence of optimizing any of those that's going to make all the rest suffer.

Starting point is 00:14:03 So I started improving my sleep, I started improving my nutrition, and again, that was packing food in my backpack so I could go to class. I'm loading in peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and hard boiled eggs. Imagine what those smell like when you open and puff in a Tupperware for hours. You were popping up with the head of the shirt. Everybody 10 rows up in class is looking around. I've got my hard boiled eggs up there and I'm like, sorry. But eating more food was a big deal.

Starting point is 00:14:27 And now, of course, I'm pretty particular about the kinds of food I eat, but of primary importance was calories at that point. That's when I started to release the results. Let's talk about genetics for a second, because we know how important genetics are for body building or strength or performance, or a lot of things. A lot of things that you can perform well at genetics play a significant role. There's this belief that bodybuilders and strength athletes have these insane genetics

Starting point is 00:14:55 where they just were automatically built and strong. Obviously, what you're saying counters that. You go into college, graduating in high school at a hundred pounds that doesn't sound like great jeans But there are genetics in terms of how you respond to exercise or food or even how you respond to anabolic and stuff like that Like maybe touch on that a little bit how how big of a role did you that do genetics play and how big of a role Do you think that played with you or or not a role with you? Yeah, well, it's huge. I always say genetics reign supreme You know your mom and dad matter in this deal. And what I found is that lots of times I would come across training partners.

Starting point is 00:15:32 I trained with Aaron Madron way back in the late 80s. And he was an IFB pro, a fantastic pro. And you know, he would go out with his buddies drink until four o'clock in the morning. And then he would show up at seven to train with me Missing meals miss and sleep breathing or sweating vodka while I'm trying to bench and I'm breathing that in But he was massive. I mean this guy had 20 plus inch arms and 20 plus inch calves and 32 inch quads and he was just Massive and I realized

Starting point is 00:16:02 somewhere along the way that I wasn't that guy, and I was gonna have to do everything 100%. And that meant every night of sleep, I never went out drinking, and I never stayed up late. I always wasn't bed on time, even all through college and thereafter when I was working in bodybuilding. But I also kept my day job because I never thought

Starting point is 00:16:24 I would make money at bodybuilding. A lot of people will reach out to me and talk about their bodybuilding career. And I'm like, well, hold up. Bodybuilding is not a career. You know, it's a hobby. And even if you become a great bodybuilder, you're still gonna have to be a pretty good businessman

Starting point is 00:16:40 in today's environment to create your own financial opportunities. You can't, nobody's gonna knock on your door and say here you go, pal, just lift, eat, and train. Yeah, so many easily been trained, and I'm gonna pay you for it. Yeah, so many bodybuilders don't know that. They don't understand that, but you understand it early on, obviously,

Starting point is 00:16:58 what were you, when did bodybuilding become, a money maker for you? What were you doing before that? What was your career in your business? You know, I never made money in bodybuilding until after I was retired. This seems odd, years after I was retired from bodybuilding. Because I never monetized it that way.

Starting point is 00:17:16 Because again, I kept my day job and I pursued other career avenues. It was a hobby for me. It was a passion. I wanted to be a pro bodybuilder, obviously. And of course, when you're doing that in the early 90s, when they're only giving out one pro card at the USA's and one per weight class at the nationals, and the weight class is everybody over 198. And you've got, you know, the top 10 guys at the nationals, you're talking flex weather, Chris Cormier, Mike Francois, the list goes on

Starting point is 00:17:40 and on. They're all in the front cover magazines. They're still amateurs. And we hear a lot about that today, the quality and the depth of the competitors just aren't what they were in the early 90s. Because ProCards are much more available, so there's a smaller talent pool. Do you agree with that? Do you think it's 100% yeah? Those guys in the early 90s were ridiculous. And they were fighting for one card or two cards a year. Not a hundred. Yeah, there was great bodybuilders that would have been pros for trying to become a pro for 10 years. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:10 We're gonna smoke right into it now, for sure, back then. For sure, and that's not to say anything except from the fact that it was much, much harder to get that card. Now there's so many cards that you've got a smaller tablet. Well, plus way less shows too, right? The amount of shows they were doing is now you have shows going on almost every two weeks There's like a show somewhere where there was one class was bodybuilding, right now you got figure physique

Starting point is 00:18:31 bikini classic classic. Yeah, you've got a whole host of different avenues Which I think is fantastic that people can pursue their dreams and their talents when I was 135 pound guy The only way to turn pro is to be 250 shredded at six foot. And so that was the goal. There was no 185. There was no 210. None of those opportunities existed. So that was the one goal.

Starting point is 00:18:54 That meant you had to get huge. You had to get up to 300 pounds and die down to 250. And that became my obsession. Now having trained at such a high level for as long as you have, I mean, you've got to be, well, you're one of the strongest, if not the strongest bodybuilders now, and you're not a super young guy, you've been doing this for a long time. Means you've been training your ass off for a very, very long time, has the training methodologies and the attitudes towards training? Have you seen changes in trends?

Starting point is 00:19:27 Because you've worked out, you know, since the early 90s at a very, very high level, you know, 90s, early 2000s, and today, and you've been in the world of bodybuilding and strength, are you seeing these different trends and stuff happen? You know, what I saw working in the early 90s still works today. And the science is now supporting it. I think I was at a symposium recently in one of the PhDs that was there said the bros were right. And that's what I discovered when I used to get in my car and take my trek down to Venice to watch those guys train back in the early 90s. Every

Starting point is 00:20:00 single one of them trained twice a day, eight, seven plus meals a day, slept eight, nine hours a night and took a nap every afternoon. Got a bunch of suns. Every single one of them. Got a bunch of sun. I think they've got the Bob Bowl down at Firehouse Restaurant down there at Stake and Rice. I didn't invent this thing. This whole vertical diet, Stake and Rice thing. I don't claim to invent it. I watched it happening 25 years ago right in front of my eyes. These guys were putting down mounds and mounds of steak. I tried the chicken, I tried the white fish, I tried the egg whites, I tried the rice cakes, and it didn't work, and it still doesn't

Starting point is 00:20:38 work today. But I watched it, but these guys did. And every single one of them, and the same way Flex trained me in 2008, it was two a day hypertrophy sessions, lots of volume, lots of frequency. I did notice that their intensity was less than what I was doing. When I say intensity, the heavy, heavy weights, all the muscle damage. These guys, they prioritized recuperation.

Starting point is 00:21:04 It's the law of repeating bouts, frequency and volume was prioritized recuperation. It's the law of repeated bouts. Frequency and volume was prioritized over damage. That's absolutely. The delayed onset muscle soreness from 500 pounds stiff-legged deadlifts didn't bode well for the law of repeated bouts. I definitely think there's value in training like that, throwing it into your routine,

Starting point is 00:21:23 but if that's all you ever do, every single workout, every single set to failure with heavy weights, your accumulated fatigue is, you're not going to recover. And you know, was a wrench in all that was, because some people, there are, there's always individual variances, right? There's always those people, there was Bulgarians, because they weeded out all the people with weak central nervous system. But like Dorian, like Dorian Yates hits the scene, he has a very different style of training, right? Going to failure, one set per exercise. I'm not too, yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:51 You know, Mike Menser, that whole, you know, Arthur Jones mentality. And so then I feel like bodybuilding kind of started going in that direction a little bit with, you know, one workout, each body part, you know, one body part, each body part once a week type of deal. But I, look, I've been training people for 20 years, I train every, I train average people. So I don't work with body body part, you know, one body part, each body part once a week type of deal. But I've been training people for 20 years,

Starting point is 00:22:06 I train average people. So I don't work with bodybuilders or whatever, but I see what works with average people. And frequency and volume and monitoring intensity works great for most people. The whole like hammer the shit at us, someone real hard and let them, you know, wait a whole week,

Starting point is 00:22:21 didn't, doesn't work for a whole lot of people. Is that frequency? Are you starting to see that come back now with the new bodybuilders? I'm starting to see that come back. I'm forced into that now. I can't do what I used to do when I was powerlifting. There's just no way I can get under and grind

Starting point is 00:22:34 under those big heavy 600, 700 pound squat sets thinking, plus I learned, finally, when I trained with Flex, just how important it was, just how much bodybuilding helped powerlifting and how much powerlifting hurt bodybuilding. I started to learn the difference and I started to not power build anymore. I started to actually specialize. When I trained with Flex, he wouldn't let me squat or deadlift, not one repetition of

Starting point is 00:22:58 those things over the 10 week period that he worked with me for getting my pro card back in 2009. That was the purpose of that, is it would have impaired or impeded or reduced the amount of volume and frequency that we could have done. And I was significantly more full in volume as my legs were larger,

Starting point is 00:23:16 and I've told this story before, am I? Your legs changed a lot. It changed a lot. In 2009 with Flex, they were 30 inches on stage, just 254 pounds. And your reps changed, you were doing 20 plus reps, right? Many plus reps, the legs in particular, like to the extra reps.

Starting point is 00:23:29 And we weren't going to failure necessarily. It was mostly oxygen, debt, lactic acid build-ups. So it was hard, hard work, but it wasn't mechanical failure in the sense that those heavy squats would be. And you find that a lot of... I like Dorian didn't squat. He would leg press and hack squat. And one of the reasons is that once you hit the lumbar spine, dead lifting or squatting,

Starting point is 00:23:50 you completely change the fatigue level and the amount of delayed on-site muscle soreness in the recovery. And whether or not you call that central nervous system or what have you, we use that word, we throw it around, we know what it means, but we don't. But you can feel the fatigue, you know you're not recovering. And so, you know, we made sure to do lots of volume and my body responded to that. And what was interesting is, is recently I attended a seminar

Starting point is 00:24:15 with John Meadows. He and I were both presenting with Charles Poliquin recently down in Denver. Yeah, it was a good group. And he talked through his program and it was very, very similar to what Flex9 did. He started with a mind muscle connection exercise. We did one leg-ed leg extensions. Then he moved on to what he called his blast exercise. That was his leg press, where we would get a significant amount of weight. And he'd do four sets

Starting point is 00:24:40 there. But the first three sets were, you know, a few reps from failure or less. And only the last set that he'd go to failure or do a drop set or just pretty much push himself to the limit. Failure is abused a lot now. I mean, it's been abused a long time. A lot. And particularly for the lower body is where upper body, you can do a lot of damage to your back doing rows and chins and probably still recover within 72 hours. But the legs completely different animal and probably a lot of that has to do with the spinal cord.

Starting point is 00:25:05 It is important to note too though, in defense of dead lifts and squats, and when I work with most everyday average people, the functionality and the muscle bullying that comes from learning how to do those very foundational human movements, very important, someone like you who mastered squatting and deadlifting

Starting point is 00:25:21 because you powered, lifted for so long, you're gonna go into less of a priority. It was less of a priority. It's it's not a new stimulus for you It's an old stimulus for you changing to a leg press or you know hack squat or other movements You're gonna get some change in your body. You've been doing the other ones for so long Well, and you're also starting to utilize just the quad. Yeah, when I throw a bar really good at it Yeah, yeah, when I throw a bar on my back. It's all about leverage. Now I'm incorporating the hips, the loops, the spinal erectors, the entire body. I'm not interested in using one muscle group. I'm trying to get the entire body involved in the movement. So flex made me use one muscle group. We brought our feet in and

Starting point is 00:25:57 down on the leg press and, and, uh, how did that feel at first? Well, you're like, oh, shit. My legs are shaking. I was pressing 14 plates aside for 20 reps, and then I come in and train with Flex, I'm down to six plates aside. Because he adjusted the rest periods, he had moved my feet down to it, it was all quads, and you could just feel the quad tearing off the bone.

Starting point is 00:26:14 Let me do the two more steps on John Meadows program that I thought was very simple. Flex and I did. We said we had the mind muscle connection, leg extension, single leg extension. Then we moved to a blast exercise, which was the leg press for us. We worked up, got some decent weight on us, 20 reps sets, maybe two-minute rest.

Starting point is 00:26:32 Then we'd move on to a pumping exercise. Flex had us do, say, one-legged step-ups with a band on a box. It was just rep after rep after rep and the amount of blood and volume that put into the muscle. That was a pumping exercise. Or throw up just listening to that one. Yeah. And then we would finish, John finishes with what he calls stretching and Flex would have us kneel down in between sets

Starting point is 00:26:52 or finish with a walking lunge, which would put an incredible amount of stretch on the quadricep. Especially after it's pumped. Especially after it's pumped. And you just feel the muscle almost like it's tearing off the bone when you squat down in between sets of leg presses or you do the walking lunges to finish just that tearing and tearing and stretching.

Starting point is 00:27:09 I don't mean that in the literal sense, the tearing is, but it's that full range of motion. And for hypertrophy, that's optimal. So important. Yep, to get that full range of motion, anything that you need to do, I always had tight ankles, calves, and lack of mobility in my ankles. So we would have to stretch those first on a calf machine, or we would have to use an ankle plate, or I would be pushing off my toes, just so I could get my quads into a stretch position without transferring a load onto my glutes, because my ankles were the limiting

Starting point is 00:27:42 factor for flexibility. So that was really interesting to hear that. Because flex isn't a scientific guy, and people dogging all the time because he's not book red and he doesn't quote studies. But I don't know anybody. They say that blind men hear better and deaf people see better. Flex is one of those kind of guys. He's the kind of guy who is street smart. And his eye is incredible.

Starting point is 00:28:08 And we would pose after every workout and weigh in every single day and he would watch me train. And he was consciously measuring all of that and observing that. And I told the story one time when my teeth were hurting from all the steak that he had me eat. I was eating popps or loin steak on a foreman grill. We cooking it or what? Yeah, I was cooking it on a foreman grill and so it was always tough. But he had me eating steak like seven times a day. Holy shit. We had, that's almost all we ate.

Starting point is 00:28:35 And for protein source. And which was hugely beneficial as it turns out for me because the... My cholesterol, creatine. Everything. Yeah, the iron the B12 the zinc everything was great about that but My teeth started hurting and so I switched to white fish and chicken breast for a couple of days And I went into the gym and I'd lost three pounds and I was posing with flex and he's like what's going on?

Starting point is 00:28:58 He's like your weights down. You look flat. You're you were lethargic today during your workout And I'm you know, I'm looking around. I can't even look him in the eye. Now we're the macros the same, same grams of protein, everything. Yeah. I kept everything the same. I'll bet the calories did go down a little bit because the white fish and chicken is leaner than the steak, but I don't think it was significant enough to lose three pounds in two days. But nonetheless, so he looks over. I was training with Keith Williams at the time, and Keith's looking up at the ceiling is neither one of us could look flex in the eye and lie to him.

Starting point is 00:29:30 And so finally I told him, I said, I'm my teeth hurt and he's like, suck it up. And he said, get a meat grinder. And I'm like, wow, what a novel idea. So that's in my vertical diet today. I did that for Thor and Shaw. They use a meat grinder to grind their meat. That's why the Monster Mash,

Starting point is 00:29:50 the all of this stuff came from my experience with, you know, I think some of the greatest coaches and trainers in the world. Explain this Monster Mash. I've heard you reference it a couple of times. I've heard it in your videos. What is it? Yeah, well, it's red meat.

Starting point is 00:30:04 And it's, you know, we, it's either ground bison or ground beef mixed with white rice, which was our staple with flecks because it's easy to digest. It was easy in my stomach. I could get in a ton of calories. He had me on 600 plus grams of carbs dieting for a show. I was losing body fat because our workload was so high. I needed to fuel it with something. And I can't fuel it with bread, pizza, pasta, pancakes,

Starting point is 00:30:26 because it'll blow out your stomach or even oatmeal. It's what I found from personal experience with the athletes that I work with. When they start stuffing oatmeal in themselves, it has kind of a cumulative effect of creating bloating and gas and indigestion. Food intolerances, and I think a lot of people learn this as they get older.

Starting point is 00:30:41 I don't get, you can't get away with that shit as you. No, no, and that's one of the first things I found with Thorne Shaw. Two guys who have to consume damn near 10,000 calories a day. I've got them over 1100 grams of carbs a day. And I can't feed them foods that are going to cause distress to their gut. So I found the foods that were the easiest to digest, the low gas vegetables, the bone broth,

Starting point is 00:31:02 to get back to the monster mash. In order for them to be able to eat that much food, I had to make it easier for them to eat. More palatable, the amylase production, just being able to pallet the food, to chew it and swallow it, was the first challenge. So when you add some bone broth into the white rice, a moist white rice, into a ground bison, which is a really easy, even better than ground beef in terms of its digestibility, because it's so soft.

Starting point is 00:31:35 So that was kind of the base meal, was the monster mash, and they were able to accumulate a ton of calories with a very high biological value nutrient term. We talked about the B vitamins and the iron and the zinc, and they could get the bulk of their calories from that and have no indigestion. They became regular, which is one of the big things I focused on, because usually as powerlifter, working with big guys who have to eat lots of food, most of us are run into the bathroom all the time. From an all the sortment of thing, whether it be protein powders or bars full of sugar alcohols or casing allergies or breads, pasta, pizza, pancakes, all those things that cause indigestion and gas and bloating.

Starting point is 00:32:18 So I tried to eliminate that and make them more efficiently able to use those calories. I found they could eat a little bit fewer calories and still maintain their weight. They're assimilating. I'd say their body's using you. It's funny, you say this because, well, two things, and it's a reference to flex and his knowledge. I'll take wisdom over knowledge any day.

Starting point is 00:32:37 100%. And wisdom really is just knowledge plus experience, is really what it is. And it's more valuable. The other thing, too, is a lot of the stuff you're saying, you know, strength athletes have been Vince Garanda, who was the scientist of bodybuilders way back in the day, advocated for these very high cholesterol, you know, protein red meat and full fat dairy,

Starting point is 00:32:57 agio type of diets. And this is the way bodybuilders ate back then, and this is how they built a lot of muscle. And then we got a lot of misinformation about, oh, eating cholesterol is this, that, and the other, watch your sodium, that's another big one. I know you talk about it as this whole,

Starting point is 00:33:09 eat low sodium, which sodium is, especially if you train and sweat, you should probably eat a lot of sodium. It'll give you more strength in, and make you, you know, much healthier as a result. But it's funny you talk about gut health, you know, when we first started our podcast about four years ago,

Starting point is 00:33:25 we were talking about the benefits of monitoring or making sure that you have good gut health for people who want to build muscle and burn body fat. Not just for people who just want to be healthy. And a lot of people thought that laughed at us and thought that was silly. And I'm like, look, look. Yeah, it's just for hippies.

Starting point is 00:33:40 That's the membrane between, I mean, when you eat something, it's not in your body. That's a hole that goes from your mouth to your anus. When it gets absorbed through the gut, that's when it becomes a part of your body. If you take care you got, you assimilate more food, and you can build more muscle and burn more body fat. And now we're starting to see people like you, very influential people, start to promote that message, which I think, I'll tell you what, some of the worst gut health issues I've

Starting point is 00:34:02 ever seen in my life are people in the strength building, muscle building world. It's like an epidemic. Well, and also your immune system improves. I remember what it was like. You know, I put my body through torture. And with the performance-sanching drugs on top of the horrible diet, just the eating, everything you can kind of diet,

Starting point is 00:34:22 you're sick all the time. You know, every three or four months, your liver is always taxed. I get blood tests every month for the last 12 years. I know exactly what happens depending on how I eat and what I use and it could be in the sport. And now I'm able to use those lessons with my athletes and I'm able to actually watch their liver enzymes come down,

Starting point is 00:34:38 their appetite improve, their immune system. Just from the food. Just from the food. A few of the things in my diet contribute to that. You mentioned the salt. So you can chloride, hydrochloric acid, digestion is big. Do you have them take HCL pills when they're eating some of my due? Yeah, I recommend it to a lot of folks. It's in the diet program I talk about. I just did a rant recently on stomach acid, on low stomach acid, how that affects digestion. And creates autoimmune disorders. I've had people on

Starting point is 00:35:04 an acid prescription medication for years who could come off within a week. I've had people on an acid prescription medication for years who could come off within a week. I went through that process myself. Yeah, and started introducing HCL pills was a game changer for me. Game changer. Yeah, and I think the performance benefits are just a side effect of good digestion.

Starting point is 00:35:22 God, it's so refreshing to hear that coming from someone like you. You never hear people, you know, big, strong, you know, bodybuilder types or people in that space talk about it in that way. It's always the wellness people that nobody wants to look like. That's the kind of stuff. And I've been able to, you know, I've lived through it and then I've been able to utilize it.

Starting point is 00:35:41 Most power lifters, they'll come the way in and they'll head straight to IHOP. And that puts them in a really bad situation, particularly if they lost a significant amount of water, and then they end up in a position where they're cramping, their bodies not digesting the food. So I'm very particular about what people refeed on, what Hofthorne, Brian, eat, preparing, going into the world's strongest man in Manila, and actually the hydration protocol that they used. I worked with Camille LeBlanc this year, CrossFit National Champion, and Ben Smith, another

Starting point is 00:36:12 CrossFit, and Becca Voit. And all of them, Ben Smith in particular, about a month before Regionals, he suffered heat stroke. And he reached out to me and he said, I'm down. He says, I feel like I've got rabdo, I've got heat stroke, I can't go outside, I'm tired, I'm sick, my gut hurts. So I reached out to Dr. Sandergrodick's group in the heat institute and their thermal regulation experts, he's a PhD in hydration.

Starting point is 00:36:38 And they helped me with the hydration protocol, which is a huge component of recovery and fueling yourself during training. So that's when I started promoting what we call like a cyclic dextrin. I do the fructose and dextrose. They do dextrose and maltodextrin, but a blend of two carbs doubles the rate at which you can absorb the carbohydrates. Then if it's just one, versus if it's just one? Versus if it's just one. And then, it adds sodium. It goes to three.

Starting point is 00:37:06 Rather than one gram per minute of glucose absorbed, you can go to two grams with two carbohydrate sources. You can go to three grams with a sauce. Oh, it's interesting. And you can go to four grams as much as four grams when you add a little bit of caffeine to that. And I'm not a huge coffee fan because of its impact on digestion and how people become dependent on it,

Starting point is 00:37:23 and a lacking sleep and hydration. But when used strategically, it can be a performance enhancer. And I got a lot of this from George Lockhart, who trains a Conor McGregor and John Jones. I mean, George has trained everybody. It helped them do water cuts, and he's the nutritionist for these people. And years ago, I thought he was one of the best in the business and so I hired him. I called him up and I flew him out to Las Vegas and I had him help me work with a pro fighter that I was training for a fight. And I had probably done water cuts for just about every world record holder and every weight

Starting point is 00:37:59 class and power lifting up to that point. But I know what my strengths and weaknesses are, and I had never trained an athlete who had to recover from a water deficit weigh-in and perform an acardiovascular performance. Yeah, different. Very different. One rep is compared to putting in 20 minutes in the ring. And so I brought him out and we carefully put together a rehydration program, which was very similar to what Dr. Gaudik's group recommended to me on behalf of Ben Smith and that I utilize with Camille and Hofthorne Shaw. And it was that the blend of carbohydrates, the sodium, and then the timing and then understanding the absorption rates. You can't just plug that thing down.

Starting point is 00:38:36 That was going to ask that. Do they measure how it's getting absorbed? Do they? They do. They look at the rated absorption and then they have you sip that drink over a period of time and then offer yourself a little bit of a delay. They'll even, this is kind of where the 10 minute walk came from, to be honest with you. George Lockhart would have his athletes after they would rehydrate, he wouldn't let them lay down in a bed.

Starting point is 00:38:58 He would make them move around, he would have them take a brisk walk. The legs were driving those m-tore pathways, right, to bring the glycage of the glucose into the muscle without the necessity of the insulin key. And so he would use that and then they would rest for a while and then they would have another drink and then they'd walk around. And before they would start having a meal. And when I was implementing that with athletes, they were recovering much, much better, having more energy, maintaining their weight, gaining their weight back, Camille over the course of five days

Starting point is 00:39:33 with three competitions a day and CrossFit in the finals, she gained a pound. When does that happen? Never. Yeah. And that's because of the hydration. And she was eating Monster Mashed too, which I was excited about.

Starting point is 00:39:47 So I got this is really fun to get into this because I used to talk a lot about sodium and water. When I got into competing, so I was men's physique pro, right? And I got into competing and I found the sodium and water game was everything. And I don't even think that I mastered that at all. So if you were to walk me through a protocol, if you were getting me ready to peak on stage, you know, and then the, so what would my sodium intake? And I know there's going to be an individual variance as far as how much, but, you know, like how much are you pushing me and getting ready for the show and then peak week,

Starting point is 00:40:22 what does that kind of look like? The water and sodium? What would you do to do with that? Yeah, well, now we're talking a very different thing. Right, right, no, I know. I was waiting, I wanted you to finish that, but I had an appearance. And appearance is two completely different things. Right, so I'm not gonna... I'm not gonna...

Starting point is 00:40:35 Yeah, I do wanna get a hydration, I do wanna get an athlete, get some carbs and salt back in their system after they've dehydrated for a bodybuilding show, but I gotta be careful how much water I put in them now. And make sure that they don't start to, like you say, smooth out or get too much water inside of them. So, I'm not a huge fan of, I think that most of what people do for dropping water or trying

Starting point is 00:41:02 to get lean for a bodybuilding show is to compensate for not being in shape. Now a days the preps are 16 plus weeks. It used to be that people would think 8 to 10 weeks they could get preps for a show. Especially with the men's classic bodybuilding now. I mean they just want you so shredded and dry that you just have to prep longer. That's the first thing I caution competitors about is like like Dorian said, he was ready a month out. And when Flex had me training, I was ready a month out. And we were actually fighting not to lose weight. We were increasing calories, but we kept our workload high. Just the metabolism takes off.

Starting point is 00:41:41 And in that way, you can avoid having to do, in either the quote-unquote tricks, the carb depletion, carb loading, sodium depletes, sodium load. And so I really don't play that game. I get them in shape on time, and then I may put just a few carbs in them based on how they look and how they feel. But, you know, Flex and I even made that mistake, kept all these many years. Four or five days before the Olympia, he did a photo shoot with a pair of Bernal, and I posted the pictures just from my iPhone and a video, I think, on social media,

Starting point is 00:42:12 and he looked incredible. I mean, just veins dry, cross-striated, I mean, he just looked amazing. And he was 214, he had to weigh 210, I think, at the weigh-ins. So Friday morning, we wake up, he had to wait 2.10. I think at the weigh-ins. So Friday morning, we wake up, he's still 2.14. He has to wait 2.10, the weigh-ins at 3 in the afternoon. We could have done a lot of things different,

Starting point is 00:42:32 but instead, we popped a mild diuretic. Well, on flecks, that pulled very, very hard because of his kidneys. And he ended up weighing in at 2.03. Wow. That afternoon. Wow. The next day, he weighed in at at 203. Wow. That afternoon. Wow. The next day, he weighed in at 203.

Starting point is 00:42:47 Wow. He couldn't recover from it. And so, he's backstage had no pump. It was completely flat. And of course, as you know, the muscles pull away from the skin and give that appearance of flatness. You don't see any dryness, any definition. And this is generally what happens to a lot of people who end up getting deflated when

Starting point is 00:43:04 they're up there trying to manipulate water and sodium. You want to be full. And women do this in particular, and then they end up shaking. You know, they should be tight and full. The muscle should be pushing against the skin. So that was a real disappointment for him. You know, it's not like he was up there necessarily with the expectation he was going to win, but he certainly four days prior looks just ridiculous, dry and grainy and shredded. And so we make the same mistakes after both of us, 30 years of experience that amateurs make. Well, there's a real, there's a real arc to that when you think about it. When you, when you are that lean, I mean, the most like that, the most subtle

Starting point is 00:43:41 difference can make a huge difference on how you look because there's not as much room for air on a guy who's 3% body fat. And we know that when you try and get, you know, 2% better, you end up 10% worse. The vast majority of time, that's what happens. I've been backstage and guys are like a, you know, I went and had a cheeseburger and fries last night with a soda

Starting point is 00:44:03 and look at my veins and they're showing me their forearm when they pop their shirt off and they look like they're seven months pregnant. I'm like, well there you have I don't think I ever I really never felt like I presented the best version I mean I did enough to make it up to the IFB level but I'd never felt like I Presented the best version of me it was always the night before or the night after. I was like, God damn it, what a day. Even the most experienced people, seven time Mr. Olympia Phil Heath,

Starting point is 00:44:31 look what happened to him at the finals, the car water he went. What do you, let's talk about that. Did you watch the show? I watched the show and you know, and he's with one of the most experienced coaches in the business, honey, who's been through this many, many, many times.

Starting point is 00:44:43 I'm saying it's really hard to trick the body as part of what everything that I work on in my program is that there's no games or gimmicks or tricks or magic and it's really the fundamentals. I think that, you know, I had heard he had had some problems going into the show and so maybe they did some things that trying compensate for that. But obviously he was sweating a lot. That's not optimal. And he had lost the definition in his lower abdominal area from the bloating. So that's difficult. And I can't speculate on that. I don't know behind the scenes what he did or didn't do. I can tell you that even the best are up there trying to fine-tune things and end up going backwards. And so I tend to be conservative in that fashion. It didn't answer your question about what I do for water and soda.

Starting point is 00:45:33 Yeah, right. The last 24 to 40 hours of forest show because you can't really paint with a broad brush on that thing. You got to look at your individual athletes conditioning and that's the big thing about training people is yet. Anybody can copy and paste a program, but you need to check in, get feedback. Even with Brian Shaw, he started the program, the vertical diet. He lost like 16 pounds of fat. Everybody saw him post a selfie with his shirt off and they were like, whoa, what's going on? First time they've ever seen Brian with his shirt off and he's jacked and he know, he's starting to get massive. Well, he reached out to me and said, look Stan,

Starting point is 00:46:08 he's some losing my fifth gear. He said, you know, under these 1200 pound yolks, he said, I don't feel as stable. And so immediately we switched gears. I took him off the top serlone, put him on the ribeye and put some bacon in his breakfast. And within less than a week, he was like, okay, it's back. I mean, you have to be, as a coach, like you say,

Starting point is 00:46:26 with wisdom, with experience, able to make these kind of changes. I didn't have to do that with Thor. Do you see common mistakes? So I think that's what I was searching for from you was that because you're right, there's such an individual variance for everybody. And I know there's not a cookie cutter answer for that. But there was some things when I got into the space

Starting point is 00:46:43 that, because I was unfamiliar, I didn't follow bodybuilding as closely as Sal did some things when I got into the space that, because I was unfamiliar, I didn't follow bodybuilding as closely as salient, but as I got into it, I saw a lot of people making what I thought were huge mistakes. And one of those, and you talk about this, which I think is fascinating, is the sodium is they get on these preps, whether it be eight weeks to 12 week long, and also they start reducing sodium already in their diet, and you're already in a, you're making your meal. So most people don't understand that if you eat out, you're already quadrupling your sodium intake. Then you go from somebody who occasionally, or maybe a lot, eats out to also making all

Starting point is 00:47:14 your meals. So the reduction in your sodium already is significant. Oh, yeah. And then you get into a prep and then you start tapering off. And I was just like, this is just talked about this in a rant regarding sodium that when people go to clean eating, they end up in assault depleted and don't add salt to their diets. They're actually depleting sodium because that's connected to mortality. Two low sodium is not good for you.

Starting point is 00:47:35 100%. There's a dramatic increase in all caused mortality when you get into three grams of sodium a day, yet the American Heart Association recommends 2.5, and it was at 1.5 for a while. And not to say anything of the quality of life for those poor individuals that think that that's the biggest factor. It's multifactorial, but what we've found from the research, and I just posted a post the other day, is that when you get adequate calcium, vitamin D's, a big driver of that, because it dramatically improves calcium absorption. And when you get adequate potassium, then your blood pressure stabilizes, normalizes. Those are two biggies, of course, sleep and a CPAP

Starting point is 00:48:05 was another giant one. I've got 400 pound guys with normal blood pressure because I have 4700 milligrams of potassium in the diet, because I have adequate vitamin D in the diet, which wasn't there previously. I did blood tests for Thor, I did blood tests for Shaw, I did blood tests for Dan Green. All of these guys were at 25 or 30 in their vitamin D and the range is 30 to 100.

Starting point is 00:48:29 They need to be 60 to 80. And so it tells you how deficient they were in vitamin D and a lot of iodine because they sweat a lot. And that's really important both as part of the pathway for hydrochloric acid production and for immune system support and for their thyroid. So all of these things were huge. It's why I include them in my diet program because they have so many different benefits.

Starting point is 00:48:51 So it's a lot of stuff. Well, how common is exactly what you're talking about when you, because you trained a lot of people, what are some of the most common things that you have to adjust like right out the gates? Yeah, there you go, Vitamin D is always a biggie. Obviously sodium. What's really. Yeah, there you go. Vitamin D is always a biggie. Obviously sodium. What's really interesting is, you mentioned something.

Starting point is 00:49:08 People have been making these mistakes. And mostly women, they're the ones that start overrestricting and create these conditions where they have deficiencies. They won't eat red meat. They won't eat dairy. They won't take in sodium. They won't eat red meat. They won't eat dairy. They won't take in sodium. They won't take in fruit. And basically, they're on a white fish and broccoli diet.

Starting point is 00:49:30 The four things I just mentioned, dairy for calcium, which is hugely beneficial for metabolism, people don't realize that. Red meat, iron and B12, particularly with women. What do they go into an HRT clinic and get shots for every week? Right, yeah. Iron and B12 and D3 usually. So they create these deficiencies for themselves and then salt.

Starting point is 00:49:51 And they're training, you know, 240 hour sessions of cardio a day, which is another thing that dramatically suppresses their, their, metabolism, their metabolism. Which we should talk about this because that was another thing that blew my mind, was looking at my peers hammering away

Starting point is 00:50:07 on the cardio machine and I'm thinking to myself, we want as much muscle on our bodies when we get on stage to present. And here you are eight weeks out, doing hours of cardio, you're sending a signal to your body that is not advantageous to have a bunch of muscle on it. What the fuck are you doing?

Starting point is 00:50:23 You're absolutely 100%. The body responds to the stimulus provided. And if you're gonna ask your body to do an hour of cardio, then it's gonna get rid of that muscle. It's heavy, it has an oxygen demand, high water demand, it's not efficient. Yes. Also, what you find is that they wake up

Starting point is 00:50:36 at four o'clock in the morning after five hours of sleep to do this. Not again. So now they've suppressed their thyroid and all of this works contrary for them. The more they sleep, the more fat they'll burn, the lean muscle mass, they'll retain the less ghrelin they'll release, so they're not going to be as hungry. I prioritize sleep over cardio all the time.

Starting point is 00:51:00 I don't have any steady state cardio in my program. It's not for anybody. I do the 10 minute walks, it's not necessarily cardio. The 10 minute walks post-meal is to improve insulin sensitivity and digestion and decrease bloating and gas. Again, I'm trying to drive those quads to start using a different pathway because a lot of the big guys I train have insulin problems and a lot of the little people I train that are dieting, they have metabolic adaptation issues and I want to be able to feed them more food.

Starting point is 00:51:26 So I got to get them absorbing those nutrients better, the nutrient partitioning. Well, not to, and most, by the way, there's a lot of wisdom in looking at old cultures and the customs that they have. And most old cultures have a custom of walking after a meal. It's a very common occurrence in many of these old cultures. There are muscles that travel from the hip,

Starting point is 00:51:44 you know, the hip flexor complex and that travel over and through your gut or around your gut. Just flexing those stimulates movement through your intestines, not to mention gravity. If you're standing, it helps. That's why your anus is at the bottom of your body, not at the top. And so eating and then sitting or laying down, terrible, absolutely terrible for digestion. 100%. So it happens on both ends. and then sitting or laying down, terrible, absolutely terrible for digestion. 100%.

Starting point is 00:52:05 So what happens on both ends? When we're talking about big athletes that need to eat a lot of food, we're worried about insulin resistance, right? Fatty liver and all the cascades of events that occurs as a result. They stop putting on muscle and they start gaining more fat and they get more tired and everything else. When we're dieting, we're worried about metabolic adaptation. And so these methods of getting adequate sodium,

Starting point is 00:52:30 getting adequate iodine, getting fruit, which stimulates the liver, increases body temperature. Now, there's one to combat metabolic adaptation, increasing body temperature. And we see this, I put the research in my diet about how anesthesiologists when they measure the body temperature, when they bring somebody back from an operation, they measure the body temperature. If it's too low, they'll infuse fructose into their IV to

Starting point is 00:52:54 bring their body temperature up before they bring them back. Yeah, the way through the process of how the liver converts it. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, obviously too much fructose is a problem. Yeah, you don't want to drink a bunch of sodas. Exactly. But I talk in my night about, you know, an optimal dose. And so I use just a few ounces of fructose. We're talking 10, 12 grams.

Starting point is 00:53:16 Three or four times a day. And we know the liver can handle about 7,500 grams a day of fructose, pretty consistently. So three or four times a day, I get 10, 12 grams of fructose. Three or four ounces of fruct, whether it's a half an orange or it's three ounces of orange juice. I use the oranges for people who are dieting, who have problems with hunger and cravings, and I use the orange juice for people who are trying to gain weight because it improves appetite or increases appetite. But it doesn't, it's not so much, it's just in a 12 ounce glass three times a day. It's not so much fruit toast that it's going to start to cause fatty liver problems and insulin resistance. Although fruit toast has less insulin release, requires less insulin release than glucose.

Starting point is 00:53:58 And it ameliorates the effect of something like glucose, like a bread or something like that or pasta. It actually reduces the amount of insulin released and the length of time at which it stays elevated. So there are some significant benefits when used properly. And so these are some of the methods that I use in the diet and for those reasons. And with the research I've provided in my personal experience, and I mentioned that that titrating that fructose throughout the day was one of the things that I watched

Starting point is 00:54:25 bring my ASTALT down, my liver enzymes. Oh wow. And when my liver enzymes were elevated, I would lose my appetite. And how would I discover this? Well, every time I took debol before a powerlifting competition. So this is, this is wisdom. This is practical experience talking to you

Starting point is 00:54:39 without any regrets. How did I manage that situation? I managed it with proper nutrition. So I had to compensate for the things that I was doing to myself. And I talked about this in my video on, if you wanna be healthy, don't compete. Because that's not extreme sports.

Starting point is 00:54:59 I'm so glad I said that. Anything is many times. Right, anything is extreme is not. Anything is extreme. I'm talking about nine year old-old kids in badminton blowing out anterior cruciate ligaments. So there is no sport. If you're gonna compete competitively at a high level

Starting point is 00:55:12 that doesn't have some compromise. And so my goal is to try and manage that as best I can with better sleep, better nutrition, better hydration, all of those things. I'm not saying that competing in any sport is gonna be healthier optimal even You know long distance runners long consider anything the bastion of shit. That's probably the worst That's one of the worst. They end up with the oxidative damage to the heart. Yes

Starting point is 00:55:34 Yeah, I know the joint issues dude for pounding for so many hours I'm 100% and so you have to you know in my joint issues and I talked about that in my rant on how I fixed my knees because I was in there And you know, in my joint issues, and I talked about that in my rant on how I fixed my knees because I was in there training so heavy, so often that I had to get more movements. And I started using the banded presses and getting the 20 rep sets set after set to try and help with chronic tendonitis. And so I'm big on restorative movements, even when I'm working with power lifters who historically, you know, don't run if you can walk, don't stand if you can sit, and don't stay awake if you can sleep, that's the mentality,

Starting point is 00:56:07 and the need is many calories as you can. And then you end up in one of those situations with high insulin resistance and fatty liver, and just eventually, you kind of top out at what your potential is, is because your body isn't, the nutrient partitioning isn't right, and you're not building muscle tissue.

Starting point is 00:56:24 And so even with those guys, I have to be really careful that they're doing some movement that doesn't necessarily, isn't counterproductive to strength. And so, I might do some prowler, some concentric movement, whether it be a recumbent bike under a little bit of tension, 30 second sprint, 30 second rest.

Starting point is 00:56:43 You're eliminating the negative to minimize the muscle damage. Exactly, but I'm pushing all the blood in there that's necessary and activating the lymphatic system, which is something that you have to move to get all the, you know, the trash out of the system. So, and I do that like three times a day for 10 minutes. This isn't a 40-minute session. So great.

Starting point is 00:57:02 Because the frequency is optimal. Absolutely. That's why the three-ten-minute walks a day. That's why you, you know, I have the fructose three or four times a day. It's almost like a doctor would dose medication to you. It has a half-life. You know, fructose has a half-life. Your digestion isn't all day.

Starting point is 00:57:17 I can't eat all my fiber for breakfast and expect it to do me much good at dinner. And so I throw four carrots into a meal and people are like, four carrots, what's that gonna do for you? Well, four carrots four times a day is my carrot a day, but it optimizes the digestion. Well, especially when you're eating a large amount of food in your large athlete.

Starting point is 00:57:37 Yes, it's very difficult. I mean, you're eating 6,000 college a day. It's hard to do that with two or three meals. It really is. It is. And meal frequency is important too. I mean, this is a whole nother avenue with the intermittent fasting thing that's coming on.

Starting point is 00:57:49 If I've got an athlete that's lifting weights and breaking down muscle tissue, I don't want them going 16 hours without food. There's no mechanism in the body to store protein. And no, they're not going to lose 10 pounds of muscle, but it's not optimal for the body to need repair, to reach for the amino acids, and they're not there. And it has to wait. Now, have you ever utilized, because I've seen this both with myself

Starting point is 00:58:07 and with people that I've worked with, because of the indirect health benefits of fasting occasionally, I've noticed people respond better when they do throw in the food and they throw in that more frequency. I wouldn't incorporate it during a heavy training session, but more of an offseason like. You hit the nail on the head, you said occasionally.

Starting point is 00:58:24 And this isn't something I Intermittent like it's supposed to be yeah, it's wheel stuff And it also depends on the athlete do they are they experiencing Insular resistance. I run a blood test. I look at the HA1c I look at their fasting blood sugars, and I see oh we got a problem here when you address it That's a good time to throw an intermittent fasting while you reduce the massive loads and maybe have them do a little less volume and frequency. Sure.

Starting point is 00:58:47 And do more of the pumping exercises that I mentioned, get those legs moving more often so I can use the M-Tore pathways. I can start to get their insulin resistance down. The first thing we do with Thor was take him down from 425 pounds to 395. When I first started working with him, I said, we're going to have to take 30 pounds off of you. And he was like, what? Take 30 pounds off. I mean, I need to be 4.40. And I said, well, I can't get you to 4.40 lean in strong and hard until I get you down to $3.95 and get your insulin sensitivity, right? Very good point. And then get you back up there using the kinds of foods that won't

Starting point is 00:59:19 repeat the same problem, beats a pasta pancake, so you know, that kind of stuff. So we took all of that out. And then when he went back up, I think some of you may have seen, he squatted like nine, six, six pack, takes his shirt off, he's just yoke. That's fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. At some point, when you compete, like I said, if you want to be healthy, don't compete, at some point, he's going to have to add that extra weight to endure the load from his

Starting point is 00:59:43 training as did Shaw. And at some point, you're a bikini girl that's getting ready for a show the last 30 days is going to have to suck it up, you know, but you certainly don't want to strip muscle off of her, but she's going to have to be at a deficit. She's going to be hungry. She's going to lose, you know, a little more weight than what would be healthy necessarily to show on stage. But when you do it correctly and you keep sodium in and you keep calcium in and you keep

Starting point is 01:00:06 fructose in and you get adequate potassium and you know all of those things are and you get iron and B12 and she keeps her red meat in the diet then there's no rebound or very little she can easily you know refeed reverse diet after that and not have the edema and the massive fat gain because of the suppressed the metabolic adaptation and the lowered metabolism. I love what you're saying, Stan, because for a long time in that space, in that world, it was, you have to make your health go bad in order for you to do, which is different

Starting point is 01:00:40 than your message was just saying, competing itself, not healthy. However, if we approach it as healthy as possible, you'll do better, you'll perform better. You minimize your damage. Right, and that's a very different message from what in the past was kind of kamikaze, like throw everything at it, go for it, and poor health is supposed to happen,

Starting point is 01:00:57 so let's just go for it. Very, very different, how rare is someone like you in your space? You take a very meticulous, smart approach to everything. Holistic approach to everything. And again, you make health one of the priorities because you know it improves performance and appearance. How rare are you in your space?

Starting point is 01:01:19 I don't know. When I came in, we talked about the fact that we're fortunate that there is are so many really bright, really experienced people now that athletes have access to. So I think very quickly, people are starting to see that there's some good information out there, and it's starting to point to the top. So I think it's more and more common. I think that, you know, the Lane Norton's of the world and certainly the

Starting point is 01:01:45 Greg Knuckles of the world that are out there, they put out some really good information. And we might not all just agree on everything. Lane's got the sugar. Yeah, sugar. And that's where we jab them all time about that. We're good friends of this. And I don't think he's driving.

Starting point is 01:02:01 He's just saying, look, that's not gonna kill you. The calories is the first most important thing and then the quality of the food and then the meal timing and then all that. So at least he puts it into a hierarchy, but to me again, it's a symphony. And if I'm doing an 80-20 or if it fits your macros and one of the instruments isn't in tune,

Starting point is 01:02:20 meaning as part of your 80-20, as part of your 20% or if it fits your macros kind of deal, you're taking in something that's causing inflammation, vegetable oils, sugar alcohol, maybe bread. Popdarts, it depends on how you respond to them. It's been my experience that the vast maturity athletes I deal with do have digestion problems. And if I can remedy those first, and so I'm a little more particular. I don't let people have the 80-20 and I I don't let them do a Fitcher Macros.

Starting point is 01:02:47 I specify in my diet, I list exactly the foods I want them to eat. I'm very specific. That's because you're fucking old, and you've done a lot, you've coached a lot of fucking people, bro. That's why. That's where we come from all the time we argue with a lot of these people. It's just like, yeah, wait till you've coached thousands of people, and you see what the majority, and it's like, yes, your message is okay that you're

Starting point is 01:03:07 right. There is a high-arkey and these certain things are not necessarily bad or evil food. It's just most people have got a lot of issues. And my program is intended to be simple, sensible, and the last part is the most important part, sustainable. And here's where there's a bit of a disagreement with what I propose, which is I list exactly the food you need to eat. And what people are concerned about in terms of sustainability, having flexibility. If you're a dieter and you're forced, forced, but I'm recommending that you eat these foods

Starting point is 01:03:44 and then you end up at a restaurant somewhere or if your appetite Is different one day and you want to make a change up You know I offer up substitutions, but I'm cautious about what substitutions You know, that's not a pizza and it's not a cheeseburger You know, it's another low-fod-map food or it's a variant of the red meat type or style or another room in its animal that would provide you again, you know, the better fatty acid profile. So I do provide some variation in there, but I found a couple of things, particularly with the everyday person. They kind of want to be told what to do. Sure. Because they've been left to flounder and given their own choices,

Starting point is 01:04:19 that they're not very good at calorie control. We know that. Probably it was as much as 50% and even clinicians are off by as much as 15 or 20% in terms of calorie. You cannot rip, you cannot, you cannot depend on self-reporting at all. Because someone's self-report, oh, I don't eat that. It's always off. Yeah. Well, I hate to get in front of myself,

Starting point is 01:04:39 but I'm developing an app currently. I've been saying this for six months, but these things take forever, which is still probably 90 days away. And in my app, my clients will be able to just take a picture of their meal. And it'll be time and date stamps. So me as a coach, I can go back to any day of the week

Starting point is 01:04:55 and I can just scroll down and see everything and they ate and when they ate it. And so I'm able to quickly, at a glance, look at that and see the types of foods and the quantity and then make an assessment, to what changes they need to make based on, you know, how they're responding to the week. So, no, I think if someone wants to get to a point where they're making better choices for themselves

Starting point is 01:05:13 as an individual, they have to start with a structure. You have to kind of, that's how you learn what's good and what isn't good and what works for you and what doesn't work for you. Then you can get to the point where I think you could do that if it fits your macros after. But I think if you jump into that and just focus on proteins, fats and carbs, you're missing a lot.

Starting point is 01:05:30 You're missing a lot. It doesn't address your immune system. It doesn't address your gut health. Those are two huge things. It doesn't address micronutrients. How many people are getting 4,700 milligrams of potassium a day? Next to none. I actually, you have to be deliberate about that.

Starting point is 01:05:45 And I, and I send my athletes exactly what they need to eat in order to get that in the day. For me, it's one baked potato a day, around 1,000 milligrams, 10 ounces of spinach a day. It's another 1,500 milligrams. And I do that by mixing about five ounces or two cups of spinach with four ounces of orange juice and maybe a little bit of ice water.

Starting point is 01:06:04 And I blend it in a, in a bullet blender, a ninja, and it's very easy to drink with a meal. But now you're getting 2,000 milligrams of potassium in that meal because you've got your four ounces of orange juice and your two cups of spinach. So now I just mentioned the orange juice, or an orange. That's another 500 milligrams a day of potassium. I add to that at least half a cup of yogurt today. I can get another three or four hundred milligrams of potassium. I add to that at least half a cup of yogurt today. I can get another three or 400 milligrams of potassium from a half cup or a cup of yogurt. And then throw on top of that a,

Starting point is 01:06:32 maybe a serving of salmon, another 700 to 900 milligrams of potassium. I just counted there and I'm probably not quite at 4700. Everything I just said, you have to eat every day to get there. And I'm not a fan of the supplements. The potassium supplements are usually as a hundred milligrams to begin with. But now what do you take them with? And are they well digested and absorbed? A lot of people take supplements that don't necessarily take them with a meal.

Starting point is 01:06:55 And if you're hydrochloric acid isn't sufficient, you're not going to absorb matter. Nutrients don't ever appear in nature by themselves. No. And your body factors, your abs, that's right. Yeah, like like vitamin D is a great one. Vitamin D without fat, you know, you don't consume a little bit of fat with it, even supplement form. Not going to get absorbed as well. Right.

Starting point is 01:07:12 And that's because in nature, how do you find vitamin D? Usually in fatty fish or fatty foods or of course from the sun. And you just said the protein is what stimulates the pepsin release, which increases hydrochloric acid, decreases pH, and makes the acidic environment to the stomach, such that it can absorb those vitamins and minerals. Right, right. All of that comes together. I always make sure that people,

Starting point is 01:07:31 if they're gonna take a supplement, that they take it in a high acid environment, HCL pepsin with a meal, et cetera. Yeah, I mean, having low sodium, low potassium, or lacking vitamin D, which is, those are the three most common ones, I would say, I don't know if you would agree with me. Or even fiber, calcium, low fiber, a lot of time. But having those three nutrients in particular be off, they present themselves as hormone problems, immune problems,

Starting point is 01:07:57 emotional and mental problems. So people are getting treated for anxiety or paranoia or, oh my God, I have hormone imbalances. When in reality, your vitamin D is too low, for example. You know, and they're... You're low acid in your stomach and none of it's getting absorbed. You're on anti-interpressants all of a sudden. Exactly. And I see this as a huge problem when I have clients get come back with blood tests, almost

Starting point is 01:08:19 all of them would come back with low vitamin D and they're like, well, I go out in the sun sometimes and it's a big problem. We're not in the sun that much. Even if you work's a big problem. We're not in the sun that much, even if you work in the sun, you're still not in the sun that much, though. I take plenty of abuse from the medical community because I think I'm giving medical advice, and I'm not.

Starting point is 01:08:33 I'm giving nutrition advice, I'm giving lifestyle advice. If you've got low thyroid and low testosterone, I'm gonna ask you to increase your sleep first and foremost. 24-year-old firemen have the lowest testosterone blood tests that I see when they said me there, because of their lack of sleep, some sun exposure, some salt, some fructose for the liver,

Starting point is 01:08:53 some iodine for the thyroid. When you start optimizing all of these things, that's why I talk about the vertical diet in terms of hormone optimization. It's not about supplementing hormones. Some people may need to do that. But if you're a trainer, and I say this in my seminars, to coaches that I work with,

Starting point is 01:09:13 I said, if you're a trainer and someone comes into you and they want to gain muscle and they're a hypogonatal, if you take their money, you're ripping them off. You're going to run them through all of these weight training workouts and you're just wasting their time. They're not gonna gain muscle if they're hypogonadil. You have to try and address that problem first, and that usually happens with sleep, fatty

Starting point is 01:09:32 liver, sun exposure, vitamin D. It's a whole host of other things that come as a priority over lifting weights. What are the tests that you ask that you run for people like that to look at? Well, I like to get them to get a blood test. I ask most of all of my athletes to get a blood test. And there's a whole spectrum. Five pages, as you know, the HA1C and the D3, vitamin D25 hydroxy, of course,

Starting point is 01:09:56 the testosterone, the estrogen, their cholesterol, prolact, and the list goes on and on. It's really comprehensive. And if we can identify deficiencies, then we can remedy those or at least implement some sort of, at least help them understand that this is going to be your challenge, particularly with women who are hypothyroid.

Starting point is 01:10:14 They're not going to lose fat. How common is it for you not to see a deficiency? Pretty rare. Yeah. Pretty rare, particularly with, usually when a client comes to you, I'm not even going to say athlete, a client comes to you, they're already feeling like shit. That's kind of compelled them to come. Sure, there's a little bit of self-selection there.

Starting point is 01:10:32 It really is. So I'm getting the ones that already have problems generally and just haven't seen them yet or don't know how to fix them. And with athletes, there's generally some sort of surplus or deficiency because they've put themselves in that position with all the hard work they've done without proper restoration. How, when you're training some of these athletes and some of these performance enhanced athletes with like Annabelle steroids, for example,

Starting point is 01:10:57 do they start to see that they can use less of these substances when they're diet? You know, when they follow what you do? Okay. And you know, on that same note, we talked about how a lot of women will restrict calories and they'll stop eating red meat and they'll stop, and they'll sleep four hours a night

Starting point is 01:11:16 and do cardio twice a day. And a lot of these women will get into shape and they might win shows and then pay later because they're compensating for all those deficiencies with drugs, the vast majority of them. And I'm like, this is a dead end game. The lack of iron and the lack of B12

Starting point is 01:11:36 and the lack of red meat and the lack of sleep, you're taking thyroid and anivar and a clambuteral. And so it's very short-term fix. Masking a lot of things. They're masking a lot of the deficiency. I would argue right now that there's more of a problem in men's physique and women's bikini than there is even in pro bodybuilding. I think a lot of outsiders look in, look at bodybuilders and they go, oh my God, they must

Starting point is 01:11:57 be doing so much drugs to look like that. But I see more abuse in the lower levels in the men's physique and the women's bikini of just like you said Just the lack of knowledge time under iron experience has drawn them to you know Disregard some of the staple things like diet nutrition sleep. They should be doing and they're just reaching for the next drug or pill Yeah, and I'm not gonna be a hypocrite because I used performance snatch and drugs throughout my career But I understood what they did to me, because I was getting blood tests every single month, and I could see how I could manipulate those things.

Starting point is 01:12:29 I wouldn't take a lot of anti-estrogens, because my diet was created in such a way that I wouldn't have high estrogen. I wasn't eating any vegetable oils, which increases inflammation and estrogen, staying away from a lot of foods that would cause me the indigestion. Even something like carrots is a naryngen,

Starting point is 01:12:43 and helps decrease estrogen. So when you're really careful and bred, those kinds of things, goitrogens from maybe soy, et cetera. So I'm real careful about that, but the big thing is the compensation. I understand behind the scenes that you might look a certain way, but that doesn't necessarily mean you feel very good.

Starting point is 01:13:05 And you're going to have huge fluctuations in energy level, body composition, water retention, all of those things, and potentially, again, exposure to immune system problems. And I've seen so many women in particular, they tend to crash harder because they restrict more, men get to eat more food. And so they're able to, and they tend to cheat a little more. They'll have the pizza or the burrito, and end up getting more micronutrients as a result, just and probably eat more salt and,

Starting point is 01:13:35 you know, any more red meat. Women are so restrictive, and then compensating for that with the performance dancing drugs that they end up with these huge micronutrient deficiencies. And that's when the big rebound occurs. So I've said that, and the original question was, can you use less, and the answer is 100%, yes, when you're eating rights, you need less. And the reason that that's important is because the more you use the more side effects,

Starting point is 01:14:01 that you incur. And particularly pre-contests for bodybuilding. You don't need very much in powerlifting or hypertrophy in the off season, maybe a little extra testosterone because you're at a calorie surplus can provide you a benefit. When you're at a calorie deficit, all you need is a little something to prevent muscle tissue loss. And depending on who you are, maybe to increase metabolism to burn a little more fat.

Starting point is 01:14:27 So you can use a lot less. And to be specific, and Flex was the first person, I've worked with about every guru in the business over the years, either directly or indirectly. Chris DeCito, Chad Nichols, Hawny even helped me out one year. Dave Palumbo hired him one year to help me Charles Glass, Oscar, Kai's former trainer. I mean, I work with just about everybody in the business. And so I know what all the protocols are.

Starting point is 01:14:52 They sent me the entire diet, the entire protocol. I know what all this are. And I can tell you without being specific that Flex, when I went to work with him, put me on about half or less. It was 100 milligrams of test probe every other day, 100 milligrams of mastron every other day, 37.5 milligrams of trend every other day.

Starting point is 01:15:12 Kaya's not much at all. Wait a minute, that's a... That's for a guy, you're a son. It's when I turned pro. This was the best I ever was. That's insane because the mental, at least the belief is that these guys are taking grant, maybe some of

Starting point is 01:15:25 more, taking grams and grams of antibiotics every week. And I would say, if they intended to do that, that would be an off season, because if you're not at a calorie surplus, hypertrophies are a very difficult thing. So all you're trying to do is hold on the muscle tissue and burn fat, and that can be done very easily at very low doses. You didn't let me finish. There's a lot come on, yeah. Four thousand kilograms of deep bar.

Starting point is 01:15:49 Yeah, he comes to rest in the stack. 50 milligrams of windstrawl day. Two, I use a GH5 days a week. And that was what the prep was for. I tried Climbutra but it made my heart race so fast that when I was in doing the 20 rep sets, I couldn't keep up with the breathing. I was just gassing out. And so I jumped off of that real quick. I didn't need any how I'm pretty lean.

Starting point is 01:16:09 So somebody else may choose to add a thermogenic, which I would have them cycle two weeks through time, a caffeine, a computer, or whatever, if they needed it. But I'm just saying that that turned me pro at 254 pounds on stage in, I mean, just the best condition I've ever been in my life. What do you have to take right now to manage yourself or you're at right now?

Starting point is 01:16:28 I do HRT. I like to take 100 milligrams of test prope three days a week. My new Wednesday Friday. Wow. Still not very much at all. The reason the smaller the short ester and the more frequent injections is because it keeps my estrogen down. I found that the longer esters and the larger doses, less frequently, can elevate the estrogen

Starting point is 01:16:46 a little higher. That's one of the things I want to manage now. And I stay, depending on when I get tested, somewhere between 7 and 1200. So you're still within range? Yeah, I'm already rarely get up to 1,500 if I test like the day after a shot or something like that. But I don't need to now. What I found is it takes half as much to maintain twice

Starting point is 01:17:06 as much to gain, both in terms of the dosage and the amount of work required. Oh, that's a great quote. You don't need as much to maintain anymore to see that. No, no, very little. And I almost apologize to people when I tell them what little I have to do now to stay 240 pounds pretty lean.

Starting point is 01:17:22 But to get there, it was much harder. To get there. And it's like somebody says, well, you could still compete. And I'm like, no, it would take me a year and a half, at least a year, to put on 12 pounds of solid muscle and get leaner and try and get back to, you know, the mid 240s are so hard. Has the trends with performance enhancing drug usage changed from the early 90s to today? Are people just going Using more are they getting smarter with their own folks that use a lot more for a while there

Starting point is 01:17:49 We know in the late 90s. We had the the big guts and the insulin was Yeah, and you know Just as a side note when I was at the seminar with with John Milos Sarkeb was there and you know Milos is for his insulin protocols And I think a lot of people abused that and was using R and too much of it and with every meal. But Milo has done something that I think is pretty important and one of the things I promote today. John Meadows talks about it as well and that's your intra-workout hydration. And that's, again, your dextrin, your glucose,

Starting point is 01:18:26 fructose blend, or dextrose, maltodextrin blend, or whatever, with sodium, and they like to throw in EAAs. When you are working out, and all that blood is pumping and forcing into the muscles, if you can give it this little IV of glucose and sodium, maybe sensual amino acids, all throughout the workout, just sipping on it. From 15 minutes before you arrive, all the way through the entire workout, you can have a dramatically improved workout.

Starting point is 01:18:57 You can have less delayed onset muscle soreness as a result. I think that that's one of the biggest things that people could do now in hypertrophy sessions, particularly if you're going to train two days. All my MMA athletes, crossfitters, I have a post workout drink, I have them drink, but I think now in my version 3.0 for the vertical diet, I'm going to be having them sip it all throughout the workout because from personal experience and all the stuff and visiting with me, Lois, and talking to John, I usually drink, I'd have a little something before and then after. And now I'm having them hydrate all throughout the workout while they're doing the hypertrophy

Starting point is 01:19:32 training. And that, again, we talked about the fact that without the need for the insulin key, your muscles will soak up that glycogen while you're training. And utilize that. And you don't get as sore and you recover faster. And I know everybody focuses on soreness thinking that's the primary driver of recovery's pain. And I guess, you know, now we found out that frequency and volume is much more important. Absolutely. And so if you're not sore the next day,

Starting point is 01:19:59 that's not necessarily a bad thing. That might mean that your sleep is good, your hydration's good, your glycogen intake was good, and your muscles were given everything that they needed. Right. And they're nightling fast. You're touching on something that we actually typically don't advocate for, just because I think it's rare that we have somebody that is at that level where I would consider that a bigger rock.

Starting point is 01:20:22 Now, we have to talk to people about sleeping, eating properly, you know, training, and then they walk out of here and all they hear is, oh, I get a drink of Gatorade. Exactly my workout. Right. And you have to turn up on this no question. And again, I talk about athletes training two days. Yeah. You can get adequate carbohydrate frustration following a one a day training session by eating

Starting point is 01:20:43 your meal after training. Mm-hmm. You know, you don't need all that glucose right away, but for really hard training, competing athlete, too high-perturface, and somebody who's got all the big rocks in life. All the big rocks. Right. That's such a huge thing, which you just said right there. The big things, you know, I talk about eat, sleep, and train, and then the 99%.

Starting point is 01:21:00 And then the 1% is the supplements or the what I call the What do I call them the rehab therapies people want to go jump in a yeah You know get a massage or jump in a cryotherapy continue, you know or stuff like that and think that that's a significant You know piece of the puzzle while they're missing sleep or they're yeah, we're not squatting or doing a big movement Right, right, They focus on the stuff. I said in my rant once, the things that are done to you or for you or regularly is rarely as effective as things you do for yourself. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:21:33 I'm trying to get them like you said, focus on the big rock. And that's why I had to say that because I know they would jump all over me later on for not saying something to you because we do, we kind of tease, you know, there's this, you know, these guys now. And I feel like since Minsvizika, I feel like I see it more of, you know, there's this, you know, these guys now. And I feel like, since Minsv is here, I feel like I see it more of, you know,

Starting point is 01:21:48 walk around with their way it belts on, they got their introshakes going on, and then they're going doing all these, like machine exercises for an hour. One arm, cable pushed down. Sideways, chest press. Yeah, with the selfie thing, they're doing their self-doing it.

Starting point is 01:22:00 Yes, and so I'm like, you know, that you could probably save yourself a hundred bucks a month and stop drinking that and maybe just add some real exercises and movements in that order. And you know, I the same token, I've just said, oh, frequency and volume is the most important. I did a video where I, a rant where I talked about the reason why Westside Barbell athletes are so strong.

Starting point is 01:22:19 And I said in there that there's savages, they train like savages amongst savages, with great coach, you know, coaches. And they take their body somewhere it hasn't been before. At some point, the frequency and volume has to be done in such a way that there's a progression otherwise you'd stop adapting

Starting point is 01:22:35 or you're gonna have to considerably change the loading mechanism somewhere along the line. Like we said, you know, copy and pasting a diet, you're gonna have to make adjustments to it over time and same thing with the training. The one arm cable pushed down regardless of how many T's you cross and eyes you talk. You know, whether or not it's done

Starting point is 01:22:54 within 15 minutes of taking in this pill or that powder or this supplement, that probably not gonna get you to the really top. Right, right. That's a very good point to make, because I used to get confused in that as a kid, interested in trying to build my body, and I was more, because that's where I advertised, right?

Starting point is 01:23:12 So I thought, okay, taking supplements is the most important thing, and being sore is the most important thing. You know, I didn't realize that, take a protein shake was the most important thing. I had no idea that it was, eat more real food, train consistently, focus on these big lifts because you're a young kid and you need to build all this muscle. Get good sleep.

Starting point is 01:23:33 Like, I didn't know that. I'm like, oh, I'm going to buy the, you know, branching in the last, it's going to take that five times a day because that's going to spike muscle protein synthesis. That's why I say shakes are for fake seed steaks. The supplement industry gets so pissed at me about all that. And I'm like, look, there's there may be a time and place for that stuff, but the big rocks, like you said, absolutely, which most people are missing. I want to take you in a little bit of a different direction. We, you are a successful entrepreneur. You've got the, we've got the water ball going. We got the vertical diet. I hear you talking about

Starting point is 01:24:03 coaching what you're doing a ton of fucking things? Tell me about that, and you also strike me as a very growth-minded person. So I would love to hear, you know, through all these ventures, what are you learning about yourself, what are you learning about business? You know, I'm learning that I love this business.

Starting point is 01:24:21 Again, I wasn't ever able to monetize this business throughout my career. I had to keep my day job and bodybuilding was I had to set competing on the shelf for 10 years while I built my businesses. I didn't start a company until I was 35 years old and but I built four very successful businesses over the last 10 years But all of them one of them was telecommunications when it was an engineering firm that I ran, and one of them was real estate, bought, built, and sold multi-family, single family, and commercial properties.

Starting point is 01:24:50 And one of them, currently that I'm still working with, is medical and recreational marijuana clinics up in Washington, to the partner of mine. Well, we like you more now. Yeah. I would have offered a joint, dude, I can't believe that. You know, the craziest things I've never smoked one. Get out of here. But when an opera, when I was a kid, I was 12 years old, I can't believe that. You know, the craziest things I've never smoked one. Get out of here.

Starting point is 01:25:05 But when an opera, when I was a kid, I was 12 years old, I worked as a business. This is crazy though, when I was 12 years old, I worked at 7-Eleven. And I recognized at that time, beer and cigarettes, the two biggest sellers, I was always stocking the shelves, beer and cigarettes, the drugs sold and coffee. And so when marijuana came along, much later in life,

Starting point is 01:25:23 when I had the opportunity to invest, I was like, oh yeah, drugs is good business. And so I jumped came along much later in life when I had the opportunity to invest I was like, oh yeah drugs is good business. And so I jumped in, you know, and it's been a good business for us. But none of those things are really my passion. Never were. I was making a living. I chased dollars and money. My passion is the health and fitness industry.

Starting point is 01:25:39 The cooler is a neat, you know, adjunct who puts away for me to kind of keep my foot in the door with this business and sell to people in the industry. But the nutrition program, my coaching other people, I've accepted the fact that I'm, you know, I'm 50 now, it took me a while to accept that. And I can't compete, I can't do the things I used to do, but I can help others from the lessons that I learned, you know, from my experience and my advice. And so I really enjoy that. I get really involved in it. Like my kids, you know, off to Ronsha, I talk to them all the time.

Starting point is 01:26:09 And all the athletes that I work with, I work with Titer Beatty, the San Francisco Giants picture. I work with, you know, Olympic silver medalist and shot put in disc. I work with athletes from, you know, all different sports and a lot of ordinary folks. Moms, soccer moms and dadbods.

Starting point is 01:26:29 And we've done a lot of great things on my site. I've shown that how many people we've, or testimonials, dozens and dozens, if not hundreds that I've gotten from all over the world. I've had over 50,000 downloads now on my diet all over the world. And I get testimonials every single day. I can't even post them all because people complain that my site, I'm just pimping out my site for selling my diet. But I'm excited. I get these and people who are decreasing their blood pressure and improving their digestive health and improving their blood sugars, you know, diabetics type

Starting point is 01:26:59 one and type two, able to take less medication or come off of medication as a result. People have been on anesthesia for years and all the different success stories losing weight. So I'm passionate about that. That drives me. So here's what I've done. Obviously, I released the vertical diet about five months ago on the internet, on as a product that you can purchase. The vertical diet and peak performance has everything that you need, everything I gave off through, everything I gave Shaw, Larry Wheels, Dan Green, all of these great athletes I provide to everyone now. For a fee, it's $100 for a download for this, everything I think I've learned over the last 30 years.

Starting point is 01:27:36 And it's really easy to follow. I guess that I list all the foods exactly what to eat, sample macros, sample diet plans. And I include sleep protocol, hydration stuff, training programs for hypertrophy, the ones from Flex and the strength program I got from Eddie Cohn in all the years I've trained with him. So it's all in there, and it's easy to follow. But I'm just one guy selling one diet plan. So now what I've started to do is I've created, I've recently discussed doing a book deal

Starting point is 01:28:03 with, not just discussed it, but we're moving forward on it, with Victory Belt, who did the Paleo solution. They also did, oh, this is book, I'm trying, oh, Supple Leopard. So it's a really good group that we're working with. We're going to release the vertical diet. Kelly starred in Rob Wolf. Yes, and they're going to work with me and we're coordinating that now and we're putting everything together. It'll take us six months to get to market, but we've already started down that road.

Starting point is 01:28:34 But the big picture for me is the vertical, the vertical meals. Obviously, I just started the meal prep company. Just two and a half, three months ago, we started doing vertical meals. I partnered with a big company who serves four million meals a year. They've been in business for 20 years, and they have extraordinary kitchen facilities. They've got millions of dollars invested in German engineer equipment. So we've got moisture control ovens, we've got these giant modified atmospheric pressure system for sealing all of the food and taking the oxygen out. We've got flash freezing units that freeze it really fast.

Starting point is 01:29:11 So when it arrives to you and you cook it in your microwave, it actually tastes fresh and delicious. We sourced all the grass-fed beef, the line-cought salmon. I cook everything in beef talo that we render, and bone broth that we boil, that they do right there on their site. So everything's, I know there's no vegetable oils in any of it. We cook everything with no vegetable oils. The food tastes amazing. It's healthy, and so the vertical meals is something I just released, and it's all 48

Starting point is 01:29:43 states. We've done over 50,000 meals in less than three months already. Wow. Yeah. The taste is extraordinary. Of the three business, the cooler, the vertical diet and the meals. What has the most challenges for you right now? Well, there's one more in that. Oh shit. And this is, you know, we've got the book. It's the vertical coaching. What I want to do is I have an app under development that I mentioned. I've already started doing coaching seminars.

Starting point is 01:30:06 And what my goal is is to get an army of people that can implement the vertical diet with their clients. Using the app, they can set themselves up on the app as a coach and then have their clients set themselves up as a client and select their coach. And the coach can see all of their clients. And remember, I said they could see all their daily meals, and they would have their checklist,

Starting point is 01:30:27 and we could track their sleep and look at their heart rate. And so coaches can see their clients, and I, of course, as an admin, can see every coach and every client and look at the success rates, and see the clients that are the coaches that are most successful in helping clients lose weight. And basically behind the scenes between myself, and I partnered with Damon McClure,

Starting point is 01:30:47 who's a PhD candidate, registered dietician, masters and exercise fizz. He was former director of the nutrition department at UNLV. We're co-authoring the book together, and he's gone through this with a fine tooth comb to make sure that academia is appreciates the quality of the work that we're doing. But we're now as a team behind all of these coaches and all of their athletes,

Starting point is 01:31:10 or all of their clients, not just athletes. And that's my big push now is to get the program utilized by as many coaches and replicate myself, not just in the U.S. but in other countries we already had visitors from Canada and the UK that have become coaches. And that, to me, is the big picture. That's the giant. And of course, they can sell the meals and get commissions on meals that they sell to their clients.

Starting point is 01:31:38 What I found in the research is, the meta-analysis has been done on success rate for clients. When you study the most likely outcomes, we talked about sustainability, simple, sensible, sustainable, a healthy diet that can be maintained long-term. What we found is that clinicians are the worst in terms of success rates. When you go to a registered dietitian or a doctor

Starting point is 01:31:59 on a weekly basis and check up. After that is apps, that's the second worst. If you have an app and you're tracking your progress on your app, those don't seem to have very good long-term success rates. Beyond that is one of the better results is meals. When you get meals, pre-prepared meals. As we know, we always want our people to meal prep. When my wife meal preps and I see plastic containers in the fridge, I know that her progress is going to improve because she's not left to You know her own brothers and when we can get people to Meal Prep whether it's buying my prepared meals or making their own That seems to be the one of the most

Starting point is 01:32:37 Sure The best predictors of success long-term and that's why Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig does better than registered dietitians and clinicians because you just eat what they tell you to eat. And we know that calories reign supreme. There's a calorie equation first and foremost. Now beyond that is when you start coupling things together. When you have a meal prep and a weekly check-in with a coach and an app, that is the most successful program, long term for people. And so that's what we're trying to create with this program for our athletes is success

Starting point is 01:33:12 rates, sustainability long term so people actually realize success. So from a standpoint of like finances for you, which one is the most financially successful currently right now at this moment and which one is proposing the most challenges? You know, the apps proposing the most challenges is the most expensive and it just keeps growing and I knew that historically when I created computer programs to run, or had programmers create business programs to run my business, they always, they become, they're like, you're married to them and they stay with, they're on staff forever. And I know that's gonna be the case here.

Starting point is 01:33:48 My programmers, when they finish the app, are gonna, the cont, we're in a constantly filled with this thing. And so, the hardest part is obviously the computer stuff. Obviously the app, because it's intellectual property, there's no cost to goods, or not the app, but the vertical diet itself, is something that I've created already. Anytime you're selling ebooks or information or videos or stuff like that, your cost

Starting point is 01:34:11 to goods is next to nil. That's been very, very successful. As long as we're talking about business, we just throw it out there. Between the vertical diet, which I just launched five months ago, and the vertical meal was it just launched three months ago, we've grossed over a million dollars already Wow, so those have been very successful And I think the meal prep long-term because it's a perpetuity because it's a recurring buy Like the cooler if you buy a cooler you might want another one in two or three years maybe

Starting point is 01:34:36 It's a one-time thing, you know, it's a widget. It's a t-shirt. It's a you know, whatever But when you're buying things it's like why, well, I was in the rental business. I really liked the rental business, because I was getting rent every single month. I call it making money while you sleep. And if I can get recurring revenue from people, that's another thing with the app. I eventually I'd like to sign people up with,

Starting point is 01:34:56 I mentioned that one of the most successful things was meals, and secondarily, it was weekly check-ins. Well, in order to do a weekly check-in, you want to become a member. And you want to pay whatever fee, like $30 a month so that every week you can check in with a coach and have, you know, that you have a team behind you looking after your progress. So, membership's obviously another very effective way to make money that you don't have to touch every client. Touching every client, trading time for money, as we know, there's a limit, you can

Starting point is 01:35:26 go what, 50, 75, maybe if you're a hot shot, $100 an hour for doing personal training a client, and then sometimes maybe you can bring two clients in at once. But when you're doing things that have recurring revenue and creating a customer base and selling information with no cost of goods, customer base and selling information with no cost of goods, that's obviously the most profitable. Now I spend at least four hours a day answering emails and DMs from clients and just people who have purchased the diet who I don't really necessarily have an ongoing relationship with, but I feel committed to them to help them implement it.

Starting point is 01:36:02 What do you think about that? Because you're a guy who's been doing business for a long time. And so you've seen the evolution and this transition into this social media world that we live in right now. What do you think about that? How are you dealing with that right now? Well, I think it's great because I don't have to pay all the marketing fees that used to be associated

Starting point is 01:36:17 with getting your name out there. I don't have to buy magazine advertising or radio or what have you. And even like the program that you folks are doing, one of the reasons that I have realized so much success is because I've been able to sit down with folks like you or Mark Bell or some others in the industry and talk to thousands of people at once, even my ramps. 20, 30, 50,000 people will watch a ramp. If I go to an expo and stand at a booth, I might talk to a few hundred. And so the social media, YouTube, Instagram, et cetera, and this is one of the things I promote with my coaches is building their social media base by providing information.

Starting point is 01:36:56 How are you finding your coaches? Social media, I advertise my seminar, I tell them that this is where I'm going to be, and here's what I'm going to provide you. I'm not trying to train the next generation of scientists. They're out there already. I can refer to the work of the knowledgeable people that I just mentioned. I have over 100 references, it's my vertical diet is 50 pages, I have over 100 references to videos and articles and research studies, and I name some of the resources that I got this information from, you know, that Dr. Sandra Godick and on sleep Dr. Sashagamanaak. I mentioned Lay Norton in there, of course, a lot of his work. I've watched hundreds of hours of his videos over the years.

Starting point is 01:37:39 Greg Knuckles in his work over strength, stronger by science. So there's all of these people who I've learned these things from, I reference their work in there and tell them this is where I got the information from, the Brad Shonefelds of the world, the Brett Contreras of the world, the people who have really put forth a lot of good science. And then as we discussed, the wisdom that comes from people like Flex and Eddie Cohn, Mark Bell and those guys, the bros science people, the academia may look down their noses at, but these guys have made huge contributions to my success and many others. So that's the, I think the bulk of what I try and do is give people information.

Starting point is 01:38:19 When I went up to Iceland, I did a seminar and they videotaped it and they put it out on the internet. And my wife was concerned, she's like, Stanaped it and they put it out on the internet. And my wife was concerned, she's like, stand, they just put your entire seminar on the internet, two and a half hours for free. You went through the entire diet, step by step. Nobody's going to need to buy the diet. I sold five or six thousand of them in the first three months. That's right.

Starting point is 01:38:39 Because people watched it. Yeah, they wanted to know more about it. And I'm the same way, if I watch an hour video and there's a lot of information, I'm pissed because I have to watch it again with a notepad and a pen to write everything down so that I actually can retain it and implement it if it's that kind of information.

Starting point is 01:38:58 Well, this is how we worked our way into the space as we saw, when social media first came on and then the web and this ability to make money virtually, it became very popular to have these paid walls that if, you know, I must just prove a little bit that you're smart, but if you want to know all my information, it's $9 a month or whatever it is there, but you have to get more by paying this for the membership and all that. That seems to be the formula.

Starting point is 01:39:21 And so we came out with a total different mentality, which was we're gonna give all of our information for free and share everything that we know in our experiences. And as a byproduct, I think people purchase a lot of the programs and things we sell, almost as like a thank you. It was like listen, you've, and then we used to get that.

Starting point is 01:39:37 I remember when we first started monetizing the business, you know, we released the first program. And people were like, you've already taught us how to program ourselves. I'm not even gonna open it, I don't need to, but I wanna support you and so forth. So I think when you have that attitude of- Plus, you're good luck trying to fight what's happened, what's gonna happen anyway.

Starting point is 01:39:56 I mean, everything that can be free will be free anyway with the information accessible now. Yeah, so in giving people more information, it's more valuable than in the past, we thought we couldn't, we got to hide it, we got to keep it a secret. Doesn't work that way. Here's what's interesting is that I won't have a pay wall

Starting point is 01:40:13 to give information, I'll have a pay wall to check in with me weekly to hold you accountable. That's totally different. That's what I'm talking about. That's your personal time. Yeah, it's personal time. And if they have a question or something like that, and they're just for me to shake them up,

Starting point is 01:40:25 the app is intended to have some artificial intelligence ongoing to where it can start to learn. If somebody doesn't do their morning weigh in or if they miss a 10 minute walk, it can at least give them a reminder, hey, you gotta get on that. I haven't seen your body weight, you didn't check in with me. I need a photo.

Starting point is 01:40:39 I only got two pictures of food today. I need, so it just kind of reminds them to stay on track. When I did my hip rehab, I went to Mark Philippi and there in Las Vegas. Now, I know how to do play A Squats, but the likelihood that I'm going to do those with a little kettlebell is pretty slim. So I hired Mark, I paid him and I went down to his facility and I worked with him two hours a week, twice a week to rehab my hip for me, and I posted the entire video on YouTube of my exact rehab for my week, twice a week, to rehab my hip for me. And I posted the entire video on YouTube of my exact rehab for my hip, which now I forward to people.

Starting point is 01:41:08 People ask me questions, I always copy and paste articles or videos or something. I give them a little quick one sentence answer and then I send them the information. Maven. That I, you know, feel like one of the better articles I read or videos that kind of supports what my contention is. Part of that is because I want them to have the information.

Starting point is 01:41:25 Most of that is because if you think it works, it works. Most of that is because people get information from six different sources and they want to, I want them to implement mine. So I need them to have the confidence that what I'm recommending is supported by, you know, someone reputable in the industry or some sort of peer review published research article

Starting point is 01:41:46 because a lot of the placebo effect can take effect. If I can just get them to buy into it and do it consistently, rather than having all these other influences telling, oh, that's not gonna work. And well, yeah, it is because Stan said so and here's the research in addition to that. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:03 I love seeing your, again, it's refreshing because you're very honest, very open, you share everything and you understand the connection, you just mentioned the placebo effect. That's a very important aspect of improving your health, or your fitness, or whatever is understanding and believing in what you're doing. And a lot of people don't talk about that, so.

Starting point is 01:42:20 Oh, and I'll send a questionnaire, a pretty lengthy questionnaire to a client. And when they give me the feedback, there's a lot of things in there. I'm like, oh, that's a waste of money. That's a waste of money. If it's not hurting them and they believe it works, I'll leave that alone. I'll focus on the big rocks. And I won't kick them in the teeth about their BCAAs because it's probably not causing them

Starting point is 01:42:40 any problem. It's not hurting them. Unless it's a financial decision, I can make those adjustments in the oftentimes. Well, I used to say one of the things that were, because I competing, I was doing some supplements and one of the things that I noticed about myself is that when I was consistently having to take something, it made me consistent about other shit, you know,

Starting point is 01:42:59 and it's 100%. And I justified it as, well, fuck it, it's a hundred something dollars I spend a month or whatever on this shit But because I know that I'm having to time it take it and everything like that It's making everything else in my life more consistent and I said that in my rant on the Westside barbell people I plan is better than no plan and what I've found from a practical experience is that when I get a client who tells me that Oh, most of this is good most of this is good. I just need a little help with this

Starting point is 01:43:23 So I send them the questionnaire and I have an answer, and I just need a little help with this. So I send them the questionnaire, and I have them answer everything. I just need a little diet help. My training's fine, this is fine. And then I get that questionnaire back, and it's a hot fucking mess. I'm like, dude, you're not doing anything. And generally, what you find is they don't have a plan. And so when you implement that plan,

Starting point is 01:43:40 and oftentimes, I get to work with somebody like, they'll ask me, how do you help a Brian Shaw? It's four time world strongest man. And I wonder myself sometimes, and I get in there and I'm like, God, what can I do for this guy? When he reached out to me, I'm like, I can help Brian Shaw. He's four time world strongest man.

Starting point is 01:43:57 He knows more than I do. And then you get in, you dig around behind the scenes and I talk to his wife and I get a blood test and I get a questionnaire. And I'm like, dude, this is, you don't have a CPAP. You're vitamin D's at 25. You know, you had diarrhea every day. And he's the first to acknowledge

Starting point is 01:44:14 and we talked about it on his podcast that regularity is something that you just, you know, you don't consider to be all that important. It's crazy actually how many people don't even think about their shit. No, that it's normal to shit yourself. People just let that's like a sign. Like that's your body trying to tell you something.

Starting point is 01:44:32 You can't map it back to a source. And so that's why, again, why I'm so quote, unquote, restrictive specific about the foods that I select initially. And then I asked them, how do you feel? How's your strength? How's your strength? How's your energy? How are your shits?

Starting point is 01:44:47 Because I want to know if these foods are the right foods for them. And I have to make minor adjustments for different people. Some people can't handle oranges, the acidity, and their stomach doesn't agree with them. Some people can't do any dare at all. And I got to get their calcium from a powered egg shell or something. So there are adjustments that can and will be made. But it's just

Starting point is 01:45:05 always interesting. Like you said, most people don't have a plan. Right. And when they have a plan, all of a sudden, everything comes together and like, Oh my God, this diet's amazing. I'm like, no, dude, what you were doing was horrible. Right. Any diet would have worked for you because you were a hot mess. That's such a great point. We talked about this even with like, I used to get clients who would switch over to vegan out of nowhere. And they'd be like, oh my God, it's everything. It's a diet I'm like, well,

Starting point is 01:45:30 maybe it's because you weren't eating any fucking vegetables. It's a vegetable. It's a vegetable. Yeah, before. And you finally gave your body some of these things that it needed. I said that in my obesity rant. I said that all diets work when they're strictly adhered to.

Starting point is 01:45:41 The problem is is that people generally fall off. And that's when you start nitpicking about micronutrient density, gut health, immune system, and sustainability. Those are the things that start to come into effect. How do I keep people on this long term? And same with the exercise program. Three 10 minute walks is sustainable.

Starting point is 01:45:58 Getting to the gym and doing 40 minutes on a treadmill is monotonous, and I mean, that's not- Nobody likes that. Nobody's gonna do that consistently. That's why I couldn't work and all that other stuff. So the 10 minute walks were, I mean they're just life-chains. This is why I coach the steps. I use steps as my, get my clients to track where they're at step wise

Starting point is 01:46:15 and then I incrementally increase because when you take someone who on average takes four to 6,000 steps and you take them to 7,000 steps, it's no big deal. Yeah, it's so easy, especially when they can break it up in short, 10 minute little walks, versus having to drive to the gym and get on a stair master for an hour or whatever. Does that make any sense? So, Stan, when you're not eating pounds of meat, carrying coolers around, running businesses, coaching,

Starting point is 01:46:37 what are you doing? What's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's, what. Oh, yeah, I talk about it on all the podcasts. It's all I

Starting point is 01:46:46 Slobber about your kids, but I started late in life with kids. I'm 50 now. I got a four year on the six year old so Unfortunately, I was retired from bodybuilding and powerlifting and I'm in a good position You know with business. So I Talk about talk about the decision to do. Okay, I'm 37. I don't have kids Yeah, and I've been with the I don't have kids. Yeah. And I've been with the same woman for eight years, we're not, we're not even married yet,

Starting point is 01:47:07 but we've been together for eight years and I haven't had kids, everyone gives me shit all the time. Talk about why you waited and some of the things that you're maybe happy about or maybe there's any regrets of not having them earlier. You know, I don't know that I have any regrets. Certainly, I would have, it would have been great to have them earlier, but

Starting point is 01:47:26 I mean, they're fantastic. I guess the big thing for me is that I was so selfish all those years, so focused in the bodybuilding and powerlifting and work. I was running my businesses and I didn't have time for anything else and I was just so directly focused on that. Plus, the risk tolerance. If I had had my kids 10 years ago, there's probably a lot of things I wouldn't have tried because I'm a lot more risk averse now. I won't double down on things.

Starting point is 01:47:56 I won't mortgage my home, which I've done in the past against investments and stuff. So I'm a lot more cautious now, but I'm also a lot more patient now. My kids will do things that would probably freak most people out and I'm like, that's cute, but probably everybody feels about their kids. But you start to view like adults,

Starting point is 01:48:16 like you can kind of see the kid in adults. Now I noticed as I had kids, I could just see like the same sort of behaviors and things in the whole set. Yeah, my son's a pain in the ass. He's just like me when I was a kid. I just, I just shake my head. I'm like, man, if, because my dad just, if I would act like my kid, he would wallop me.

Starting point is 01:48:36 I let him get away with a lot though. That's for sure. How much of that has provided personal growth for yourself of seeing yourself in them? Oh, a lot of it, you know, it. It again, makes me really, really patient. Cured me by my OCD. All those years, I talked about those repetitive behaviors and the OCD and the t-shirts lined up by color and all that stuff, then you get kids

Starting point is 01:48:56 and they're drawn on your furniture. You have to get over that too real quick. Yeah, and inside of your car is just a one spill after another of food and it's just torn apart. Every time you turn around there's something ruined in your house or your car, it doesn't matter what it is. Nothing in the house is the same. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:49:16 Now being a guy that was for sure in love with his work and body, billion powerlifting, were you kind of an asshole to date and be with back then? I don't think so. I've always said selfish. I've always been, yeah, focused on my goals, but real generous, I've always been very helpful. And I am now as a coach, and I always have been as a boyfriend and husband

Starting point is 01:49:38 that, you know, what my wife's goals become my goals too, I want to help her achieve things. And so I'm really, really helpful that way. People, I think when they meet me, are kind of surprised that I don't have this air of, air against about me, and I don't think anything's beneath me. I'm still the fuller brush salesman that I started out. I took the cooler and I went to the Olympia,

Starting point is 01:50:01 and I didn't have a booth, and I walked from booth to booth to booth, talking to the people at all max and all max and animal and muscle farm and I just walked up and said who's in charge and I pitched him the cooler. You know, just some the power of broke as Damon John calls it. Did you have an example of this growing up or that made you be this guy who would just always work? I started at 7-11 when I was 12 years old. And I was slaying pizzas when I was 14,

Starting point is 01:50:27 and I was working construction through college, and I was a maintenance man after I graduated, worked my way up to management, and eventually started my own companies. But I've always just grinded on the blue collar guy at heart, and on the same way with bodybuilding, powerlifting, as in business. And even now, with all the success I've realized, you know, having lived the life I've lived and done the things I've done,

Starting point is 01:50:50 I'm still out beaten the streets in hustling, you know, and trying to provide a good product and service for people. There's no advantage in taking advantage of anyone. So I'm trying to give more than I get, even with my new program, putting people in for commissions with the meals, or as part of my coaching staff, now with the vertical diet, I gave them up a 75, 25 split and 75s in their pocket, 25s in mine.

Starting point is 01:51:18 I just believe in the power of, getting one percent of a hundred men's labor instead of one percent of one man's labor. And in order to do that, I need to have people that believe in me, lead by example, and that's kind of what I'm developing now. I think people, anybody who's worked with me

Starting point is 01:51:38 over the years knows that I give a lot in terms of information, like you said, and I care about the outcome about the results. That's what people say about you. Yeah. That's 100% what people, if I bring up your name to people who know you, that's what they say about you. So I think you're doing a good job.

Starting point is 01:51:54 Thank you. What do you think that? What are some of the things that you have got from being a blue collar worker and growing out that way that have now attributed to your success and having multi-million dollar businesses now? Like, I just realize it's still work at the end of the day. Every day I wake up, I got my checklist. Just like I got a checklist and I just did a seminar two days ago in Vegas at the Olympia

Starting point is 01:52:15 for the coaches and I created checklists for them. You're going to have to hand out 10 business cards a day. You're going to have to do one free seminar a week just soliciting people to come and learn about nutrition and change their life and during which you're going to have to do one free seminar a week, just soliciting people to come and learn about nutrition and change their life, and during which you're going to ask for the sale, and it's going to be a win-win. You're going to give them something that they need that will help them, and they're going to pay for it.

Starting point is 01:52:33 Because anything you give for free has no perceived value, and they're not going to think it's worth anything, and they're not going to have any skin in the game, and they won't commit to it. And so these are the same messages that I teach my coaches that I keep every single day trying to play for myself as these little checklists. If you ask me to do something for you and I don't pull out my phone and put it in my daily reminder calendar, it will never happen.

Starting point is 01:53:01 So I live off of lists and of course I've got action items and I prioritize things. But that's huge for me. The list, the action items, the daily checklist. That's in my app for my clients and my coaches is a daily checklist of the things that I want them to do every day. The 10 minute walks, what time they get to bed, what time they wake up, the meals that they eat, whether they take vitamin D3, all those things are in the daily checklist. If you do these things every day, the dingers, the singles, then focusing on the goal will never be a long-term success strategy. Focusing on the process of getting there, the habits, the lifestyle, and starting to engage and enjoy those things.

Starting point is 01:53:39 I enjoy my 10-minute walks. I put my daughter's breakfast on the table. I take a 10-minute walk and come back. I take her to school. At night before bed, I enjoy that 10 minute walks. I put my daughter's breakfast on the table. I take a 10 minute walk and come back. I take her to school. At night before bed, I enjoy that 10 minute walk. How it clears my mind, how it helps me sleep. When I get home, just, it doesn't matter what the circumstances is.

Starting point is 01:53:54 I do those things every single day. Are there things that you do as far as getting away and disconnecting and maybe breaking the checklist cycle? I always say on the show, I say that your greatest strength is normally your greatest weakness also. And so, if being organized and checklist guys, your strength, I would also think that maybe your Achilles heel, that you have a hard time maybe breaking away

Starting point is 01:54:14 from that, is that true? Or, yeah, one of the videos I did was called Stress for Success, where I talked about how I didn't break away, and I was overly invested into one outcome, and I was sacrificing sleep, and I was sacrificing nutrition, and I was sacrificing exercise, and how that sacrificing nutrition, and I was sacrificing exercise. And how that affected me, and how I experienced anxiety and stress,

Starting point is 01:54:29 and mild depression as a result during those times, and how my performance started to decline at work. My business was suffering as well. And when I re-incorporated just those fundamental principles of getting better sleep, paying myself first, I called it, getting better sleep, exercising regularly regularly going back to the gym Stop eating at McDonald's and I was actually starting to eat healthier food again

Starting point is 01:54:50 I was eating dollar meals at McDonald's for damn near a year when I was running my business working, you know, 18 plus hours How old are you right here when you're talking about this? Oh 30s 536 Okay, right in there and I did it previously five years previous someone else. When I was vice president of a telecommunications company, I was getting four hours of sleep a night and pouring, you know, tons and tons of hours into work to try and help build their business. So I learned my lessons by repeating the same mistakes. It takes me a while. I'm a slow learner. But now I know, and it's in the training as well, like with Eddie Cohen's program, he always de-loads. About every three or four weeks, you know, he de-loads. So you don't overstress your body, build up too much fatigue and that helps you long-term.

Starting point is 01:55:33 And so I implement that into my daily life too with the de-loads. And like you say, sometimes you have to disconnect, you have to turn the phone off. And it's easy for me at any given moment, all the way over here on plane Whenever my kids are playing at the park or whatever or at gymnastics. I'm on the phone answering DMs You know responding to clients and customers and emails etc all day long looking at people's blood work and you know sending them articles you name and answering questions And after a while you realize oh, but I haven't come up to take a breath of air in a while I've been glued to this thing. And so I do.

Starting point is 01:56:07 I do have to shut the phone off. One of the big things I did, and I talked about it, and I think in the stress for success video, is that I have to turn off the news. One of the most depressing things is watching Fox News and MSNBC and all those guys, lobbying bombs at each other. And you hate not being informed, but you also hate being misinformed at the same time. And it's the same reason I don't watch basketball wives

Starting point is 01:56:34 but I don't watch the news because it's the same stuff. They probably just added issues. It's just drama. Yeah, so because I always feel really shitty afterwards. I feel like everything sucks in the world sucks. And then when you look around and you start talking to people, you realize, hey, these people are doing pretty good. There's a great website for that.

Starting point is 01:56:53 And called humanprogress.org. It talks about all the advancements we've made in the last 20 or 30 years. A lot of people don't know. In the last 30 years, we've reduced worldwide poverty like tremendously in the world. You know, there's stuff like that and it's good to go on there every once in a while to remind yourself like, okay, the world's not in there.

Starting point is 01:57:11 There's good things. Yeah. Yeah. You got to share with me a story about a success that you've had in one of your businesses that you're most proud of. And I don't want some bullshit like because you saved someone's life or helped somebody. Like I want a selfish one. I want something that made you feel really proud

Starting point is 01:57:29 because someone has put as much work, consistency, as you have, and everything that you've done. I know there's had to been moments of, fuck yes. I put the hard work in. You know, at one point when I started my telephone company, I had sold my home. I think I had maybe 40 grand from selling my house. I racked up about, I cashed out my 401k,

Starting point is 01:57:50 which is probably only like five or six grand. I racked up $125,000 with the credit cards. I had about 10 or 12 credit cards. And I was using them to start my business. And how old are you? 35, it's time 34, 35. And I was buying telephone service from Quest at the time, Quest Communications and reselling it to end users. So I was a telecommunications reseller, they call

Starting point is 01:58:14 a CLAC, Competitive Local Exchange Carrier. And I owed them about a quarter million dollars, and they used to call me, you know, about every other day asking me for payments and I'd tell them, I just put it in the mail. I answered my teeth because I didn't have any money and the credit card companies were calling me and I borrowed money from my dad. And my dad was a government worker, didn't have a lot of money. When his pops passed away, he got $100,000 from his dad

Starting point is 01:58:41 and he bought a home in Florida. A real modest place, it was probably 110,000 bucks. My dad had no money when he retired. None. My mom had spent it all. And so that's all they had was that house in Florida. It was about a hundred and ten hundred hundred twenty grand. And he was able to mortgage shit for about 75 percent, something like 60 or 70 thousand dollars. God, the burden that much must have felt like the carrier. Hello. Yeah. That was overwhelming. That was the burden that must have felt like the carry that. Hello. Yeah. That was overwhelming.

Starting point is 01:59:06 That was the time at which I was really specifically talking about in my stress for success. I could give a shit about the credit card companies. I talked about this on Dave Palomo's podcast recently that those guys are investors. They get a profit from lending me money and they get an interest and that they're investors. So that's at risk capital. And if I can't pay it back, then hey, you know, we're all in business.

Starting point is 01:59:30 So I didn't really worry about that. A lot of people stress about credit cards and I'm like, why? I even had people ask me for my help to pay off their credit cards and I'm like, because the credit card company is more important to you than me. I thought we were friends.

Starting point is 01:59:43 Great point. Yeah, so I just, I can't understand the mentality. I thought we were friends. Great point. Yeah, so I just, I can't understand the mentality. I know it's stressful, sure, but why, you know, when you anyhow. So he sent me that money and I used it to pay down, you know, to maintain some of the monthly payments on the credit cards and to give quest enough so they wouldn't shut my lines off.

Starting point is 02:00:03 Because we were anticipating that we would start generating enough revenue to be able to pay our bills. Me and a business partner and the phone company, I started out of an apartment and I had no furniture in the apartment. I had a couple of fold-out tables and we had some staff come over and answer phones during the day and we couldn't afford headsets and stuff so they were just picking up those little nine dollar phones and holding them to their ear like this all day long. We were knocking on doors and with letters of authorization trying to sign people up for phone service, this is the fuller brush sales reference I made earlier, just knocking on doors.

Starting point is 02:00:34 The same way I knocked on doors at the Limpia last week, it hasn't changed. And so I was hugely in debt and my father loaned me that money, 75% of his home is everything he had. He's on a modest pension with the government. It's like $4,000 a month home, is everything he had, he's on a modest pension with the government, it's like $4,000 a month, just to give you a feeling that he's not a wealthy guy, never was. And the anxiety and the stress, I missed more sleep,

Starting point is 02:00:57 I never knew what anxiety was, my mother's suffered with her all her life, she's been in and out of mental institutions and on medication and was a chronic alcoholic I was growing up and always suffering from these manic depressive disorders and anxiety attacks and what have you And I never understood it. I was thought, you know, this is crazy. What's going on? Then I experienced it one time and I'm a whole different person as a result when somebody tells me they have anxiety I'm not like, oh, you know, get over it. I'm more empathy. Oh my God. Yeah. When you feel that, just the way that lights up your whole body.

Starting point is 02:01:30 And that was because of the money that I owe my dad and I didn't think I was going to be able to pay back. We thought we're going to go out of business. I don't know what this has to do with your original question, but it was going to get there with the proudest moment. Right. And that was the proudest moment is when we were able to turn the corner. I was able to start to pay some of those bills and I was able to give my father back the monies that that he gave me. And then I was able to pay off his home. And then I was able to buy him a brand new car. He'd never his whole life bought a brand new car. We had a used Pinto, we had a used station wagon,

Starting point is 02:02:09 and I bought him a brand new car, and he wanted, you know, he didn't need the sunroof for all the different bells and whistles, but of course I got him the top of the line. I had him. I just gave me goosebumps, you know. That's what I'm talking about. That was the proudest moment.

Starting point is 02:02:24 Right, right. And I've made a. That's it. That was the proudest moment. Right, right. And I've, you know, I've made a lot of money, spent a lot of money, done a lot of things, but that's the one that sticks out in my mind is, is, uh, and he lives with me today. He's 89 years old. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, he's mostly blind, but still in good health is on no medication. The doctors had him on a few different meds, statins, and a couple of others, uh, five

Starting point is 02:02:43 years ago, but since he's been living with me, I've changed his diet. He does this 10-minute walks, and he's on no meds. That's great. That's excellent. How's your relationship with your mom? That's still tough. I bought them a home and moved them out here. So she's a few miles from me, and she's some very severe mental challenges in and out of mental institutions.

Starting point is 02:03:07 And so it's really, really difficult. She's not all there. It's challenging. There's no question. How did that affect you? I had a very dysfunctional childhood growing up and, you know, it's taken me years and years to work through and unpack a lot of the stuff and how it's formed and shaped my personality. What are some of the things that you notice in yourself as a grown man now that maybe your relationship with her when you were younger has affected you?

Starting point is 02:03:33 Yeah, you know, she was what we call a functional addict and so my relationship with her growing up was extraordinary, it was excellent. She was the den leader, she was the house mom, everybody wanted to come to our place and hang out, she was the Cub Scout leader. When I got a job, she got a job there. When I was working at 7-11, she applied for a job there, we worked there together. She became manager and I would do the books at night for her. She's always helped me when I got a job managing an apartment community, I brought her into, to help leasing for me. So we worked together through most of those years, but as her conditions, and she was still an addict throughout those years, alcohol was the major one.

Starting point is 02:04:11 But then when she came on to psychiatric meds, those became progressively worse, some of which, I think, have caused a lot of the degenerative issues that give her the delusional behaviors and those. So, there are some of those, and I've gone to counseling with psychologists over the years with her to try and talk it through and just see how we can manage the situation. But it's really difficult.

Starting point is 02:04:40 It's not the same person. They're so influenced by those medications and addicted to them, pain pills, she'll talk to her shop and she just always seems to be compromised. When did you become aware of that? If she was a functioning addict back then, it sounds like she wasn't always new because she would go through these depressive. I have that same kind of mentality. She would overwork herself when she was managing in a bakery. She would talk to them in a video one time about how they couldn't afford to, they couldn't

Starting point is 02:05:11 afford the baker anymore, so she would come in and bake at night, and then she would deliver things at four o'clock in the morning, and she would sleep on the bench for a couple of hours, and then open the store. She just overly commits herself at the complete sacrifice of her health to the point where she just dies out after a while, she just goes completely blank and then she's at home in bed for three months and can't open the door. If somebody opens the door, then she gets anxiety. That kind of situation, the front door, you've heard of people having those scared, they can't leave the house.

Starting point is 02:05:42 And she would stay in her bed all day long, and only come out at night to eat. And then this would go on for months at a time. And then she would emerge, and then she would invest herself into another project and share enough with another, depending on how long it was within our couple three years, we'd have a recurrence of the same kind of behavior. So it's been a lifelong thing,

Starting point is 02:06:01 but I got a lot of her work ethic is part of the problem, and a lot of those obsessive behaviors. And I mentioned in my stress for success rant that I've become, I was, I experienced a lot of negative effects from investing myself too much into my work and had to continue to manage. I had a friend recently asked me, how do you manage your stress? And I said, you know, with proper nutrition, proper sleep, and proper exercise. That's the only way to do it. If you can bench 200 pounds, if somebody puts 300 on the bar, that's stressful. But if you can bench 400 pounds, and somebody puts 300 on the bar, it's not stressful. It's the same

Starting point is 02:06:40 300 pounds, but it's two different individuals. One's prepared for the task, one isn't. You cannot get through life and be successful without engaging stress. It's going to happen in any business. If you want to be successful, you need to actually be able to handle more stress. You have to chase that as a stressful situation. But how prepared are you? That's the big thing. And my preparation, some people may throw in yoga and meditation and stuff like that.

Starting point is 02:07:11 I've really just, my meditation is just going to the gym and blasting out workouts. I think Joe Rogan said on this site, he doesn't know anybody who trains hard that has depressed or has those issues. And I've found over the years that people that I, who have had suffered from depression who have poured themselves into intense physical activity

Starting point is 02:07:31 have been able to emerge from that with good nutrition and sleep. Right, yeah, they've done studies that compared exercise to SSR eye drugs for mild to moderate depression and find that they, it performs as well in the short term and better in the long term. 100%

Starting point is 02:07:46 Now, are you only child you have siblings? I have a brother and sister. Oh, okay. What's the age difference? Sisters a year older, brothers two years older. Okay. And then what's your relationship like with them? Good.

Starting point is 02:07:57 My brother lives in Iowa and my sister's in your Chicago now. Oh, terrible. I don't even know where she lives. She bounced around a little bit from New York, they were in upstate New York, and then they've since moved. But it was always excellent. They understand the challenges as well, but I'm right here trying to do the best I can to do that.

Starting point is 02:08:17 It sounds like you're carrying a lot of the load here. If you got both parents or nearby you, you've kind of supported them, like, yeah, it doesn't feel heavy to me It to be honest. Well, that's because you left fucking nine hundred pounds Almost anything says feels like compared to that. Yeah, I just for the last ten minutes talking about this You know this horrible situation with my mom But it doesn't for some reason doesn't feel heavy for me. I just I look at it

Starting point is 02:08:42 You know who was it Wayne Dyer was the motivational speaker that said once, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. And I, you know, it is what it is. And I, I guess when you set expectations that can't be met then you're disappointed, you know, undersell over provide kind of thing. I don't have the expectation that I'm gonna be able

Starting point is 02:09:04 to fix my mom. My expectation is that I can manage this and I've provided her home, pay her bills, send people over to clean the house. No, I get that sense when you talk about it. Yeah, I just, I look at more as this is what I'm able to do. I've talked about, I think in Iran, I talked about the fact that at some point, even when I'm writing things down that, for my to-do list, I write things down that are stressing me out and just recognizing what it is and whether or not I can do anything

Starting point is 02:09:34 about it, because sometimes I worry about shit I'm not in control of. And I just have to look at and be like, I'm not in control of that. That's not on me. And I just cross it off my list. I might write it down again in a couple of days because I realize it's in my head and it's stressing me out. I offload that shit at night before bed. I have a notepad and pen next to my bed or I'm on my phone just dropping in things

Starting point is 02:09:54 that I know I have to get done that I wouldn't be able to sleep thinking I would forget and I'd wake up in the morning and I have to respond to so-and-so, and I have to type that down, and I can set it down and it's offloaded. My brain's clear. And a lot of the stuff I offload isn't anything I can do anything about. A lot of times it's stuff that I just realized that I'm stressed about and I don't have any

Starting point is 02:10:14 control over it. So I have to define it as such. Actually, do you have a spiritual practice or your faith practice? I don't. Be honest with you. I don't. Good. Well, I tell you what, honest with you, I don't. Good. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:10:25 Well, I'll tell you what, man, great, great time talking with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You seem like a very purpose driven person. And yeah, very, obviously, very successful, but talking to you, I know why. I know why you're very successful, so. Thank you for the opportunity.

Starting point is 02:10:39 I know I blather on. I've probably never done a short interview, but that's, we don't either. It's all good. We know't go for hours, man. Yeah, we have that. You know what though? I love to get into this different parts. I mean, it was good to listen to you talk about bodybuilding and diet and stuff, but these

Starting point is 02:10:53 are all things I've heard you talk about a million times. I really like to know the things that make the man behind that tick and what's turned you into. And I could tell just by, I mean, you even got a little emotional talking about your dad. I can tell that there's definitely something there for sure that has probably driven and motivated you for a very long time. I go into his room and he'll show me some Dr. Oz episode about something and or he'll turn on Jeopardy and he still answers the questions.

Starting point is 02:11:21 I got to get up and leave. I feel bad about myself. I can't answer any of those questions. My pops is in there, 89 years old. He's like boom, boom, boom. We're not at the answers the questions. I gotta get up and leave, I feel bad about myself. I can't answer any of those questions. My pops is in there, 89 years old. He's like boom, boom, boom. We're not even answering the other answering questions. Yeah, that's cool. So I talk till I'm hungry, and then I reach down

Starting point is 02:11:33 in my bag and I have three thermos in there to get me through the rest of the day. So we'll leave somebody, we'll leave, we'll close off with the tip of the day. My, and the tip of the day is the thermos. I'm so proud of this thermos that heat my meals up before I left the house this morning. I heated up four really hot monster mash and I put them in these thermos and they'll stay hot for 10, 12 hours. And so now every three hours

Starting point is 02:11:56 all day long is whether I'm coming here or I go to Canada or when I went to the UK, I took six meals. It was a 16 hour day. And I had meals every three hours the whole way there. And so I have all my athletes now to prepare for their day or an event when Brian Shaw came to the Olympia. We sent him a big bucket of meals and he stayed at a place with a kitchen and he filled up his thermos every day full of hot meals. So when he was at the expo during the day,

Starting point is 02:12:20 every three hours he could eat, he never wanted for food. And that's one of the hugeest things in terms of, like I said, meal prepping, meal planning. The number one predictor of success is your ability to control your nutrition. And not just in terms of calories, but now I also know that my stomach's gonna feel good because I'm not at Smash Burger at the airport.

Starting point is 02:12:39 Right. Yeah. ABC stands. I love it. Yeah, I love it brother. Thank you very much, man. Pleasure, man. Thanks, brother. Thank you very much man. Pleasure man.

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 865: Stan Efferding- The World's Strongest Bodybuilder

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