Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 877: Michael Wood

Episode Date: October 11, 2018

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin speak with Michael Wood, a former Baltimore Police officer who came out publicly about the misconduct he witnessed in the police department. In the culture and mindset of not doing things. (5:47) Dropping all the labels: Does he identify to his political views? (6:49) Being a slave to the system: The ability to make your own decisions in life. (7:47) How professionalism changes in the police force. (11:00) Violence Porn: What started getting him public attention? (13:43) How does police work change your mindset? (18:21) How people are all biology and their experiences. (23:25) Does he find racism in this country? (28:05) Why he wants to investigate WHY a crime was committed, not HOW. (31:48) Experiences for each person: How we start the change. (41:30) What does he see in the different cultures in America? (46:45) Why does the Government try and create tribes? Are we on the right track? (49:50) How being authentic is the future. (52:45) The misrepresentation of Michael Wood. (54:34) His take on #BlackLivesMatter & other issues in this country. (1:01:03) The Prevalence Effect. (1:09:56) How is he supporting himself financially? What is his purpose now? (1:11:59) What are his thoughts on religion? (1:13:58) Does he believe in objective or relative morality? (1:18:04) His next focus or avenue. (1:22:44) Has he had any push back from police officers? (1:23:42) Are all systems flawed? (1:25:45) Is technology the future savior in policing? (1:27:32) Being an activist for police reform: His idea for success. (1:30:23) How close to reality is The Wire? (1:31:18) The next CNN correspondent? (1:33:30) Featured guest/People Mentioned: Michael A.Wood (@michaelawoodjr)  Twitter/Instagram Joe Rogan (@joerogan) Instagram Links/Products Mentioned: Joe Rogan Experience #670 - Michael A. Wood, Jr. Crimes & Punishments: In the 21st Century – Book by Michael Wood Freddie Gray's death in police custody - what we know The Wire Epigenetics: The Science of Change FBI Crime Statistics in the USA - 2016 Aggregate-level lead exposure, gun violence, homicide, and rape Inequality and violent crime Statistics | The Fatherless Generation The odd reality of life under China's all-seeing credit score system Michael Wood Jr. On Veterans Taking Stand At Standing Rock What is the history of the minimum wage? California law will require women on corporate boards USMC Veterans Call for NFL Ban The NFL is NOT Unpatriotic or Racist Sex and gender: what is the difference?

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Who's the first one that found or heard? I didn't. So this is, I'm really excited about this guest. Now, let me tell you how it took a different turn than what I anticipated. So Michael Wood was a police officer that was in Baltimore. It was during the whole Friday, great time.

Well, yeah, and I heard him first on Rogan's podcast, it's to be fair. Well, you know, you didn't hear him first. I heard him first on that podcast. I don't know about that. So that's where I have probably heard him first, then you fall down. That's right. That's where I went down. That's where I'm going with this right now. I was probably heard him first and then you fall down. That's right. That's where I went. That's where I'm going with this right now.

I was friends with him in high school. Yeah. That's good. So I heard him first on there and then I heard him on free the people and when I originally reached out to him, my intention was to actually have a very controversial podcast. I really did. I wanted to seek some controversy. I thought Joe Rogan was a layup.

I thought he was really easy on Michael Wood and I thought he had a great story and Joe just kind of let him tell it, but I really wanted to challenge some of his ideologies and I thought that Sal would be perfect to do that Sal and us, but mostly Sal, because Sal is definitely the more the political guy out of the three of us. So I thought this would be perfect to do that Salinas, but it mostly Salicas salad is definitely the more the political guy out of the three of us So I thought this would be a really interesting episode to have all of us kind of go and play some you know back and forth

verbal volleyball a little bit. Yeah, on the Rogan podcast He was all about he talked a lot about the miss the mistreatment that you know he did and that the police force did on people especially people of color uh... but then he was like very i mean he was way off on that side he talked a lot about uh... and this was on the Rogan podcast we thought okay this is going to be quite controversial not at all what happened no no different direction now that being said um... i was even though i think south was chomping at the bit and was hoping that it would be

more controversial, I think it was an incredible episode. I think this was one of my favorite conversations that we had and a very intelligent guy. And we got into some pretty deep shit. And I thought that he articulated a lot of this points. I think there was a lot of things that we thought that we would disagree on. And I think that what we did that I thought some other podcasters that had been because he's been on a ton.

I think there was a lot of people that didn't let him fully articulate his point. And then when you let the guy talk for a while, which I thought we did a good job in this episode doing, you know, he explains this point steeper. So I'm really excited to get the feedback from the audience to hear what they think about Michael Wood. I just kind of mixed feelings about it. I knew what I thought going into it. It was different than that. And he, you know, he's and I'm just being totally honest. He was a nice guy. Very cool with us. You know, he says a lot of words to say something that requires few words. It says a lot of words to say something that requires few words. And so he kind of gets lost in this circular talk, which made it sometimes very frustrating for me. And it feels, I don't know, I didn't see a whole lot of direction, but Adam really liked

the podcast, he liked the episode, it was definitely engaging. What do you think, Justin? Yeah, I had thought a lot about this because it definitely threw me off a little bit of what you had mentioned. I thought there was going to be a little more controversy, a little more back-of-force, but it really like, I was listening to a lot of his points and I thought he made some interesting points and he had some information that I hadn't heard before, which you'll hear in the podcast that I'm sure some people will be, oh, I knew that, you know, those statistics

and all that, which I didn't. But what I guess what I appreciate about him is the fact that what you hear a lot these days is people that are, you know, crying out for things that are wrong and things that they see, you know, that are happening that, you know, we didn't make a stand about it.

We need to do this that. And not a lot of people are actually putting it together and actually trying to now create the change going forward. And I feel like he's putting a lot of efforts in that direction with actually getting that change and talking to how to reorganize like the protocols and the things within the police force and addressing them in a way where it's constructive. And so I appreciate that about, you know,

his approach and his mindset. He did say he wants to change for real reform, I guess. Yeah, how policing is done. So I thought that was interesting, but nonetheless, you know, it's, you might find this fascinating episode He is a book that he's written recently too called crimes and punishment in the 21st century He left for us that'll be cool to dive in this is a grand page is Michael A. Wood Jr

So it's at Michael Wade A. Wood Jr. And it's spelled it spells Michael M. A. C. H. A. L and oh, and also I do want to mention, it's October, which means maps aesthetic is 50% off. So, remind everybody this is our Bodybuilder physique and bikini program. It's half off. Find it at mapsblack.com.

Use the code black50blaCK and the number 50 and get half off. And here we go, without any further ado, here we are talking to Michael Wood. How many podcasts have you been on now, Mike? Oh, I don't know, I guess hundreds. Hundreds probably, right? Oh, shit, that made it.

This all took off in back in 2015, was it? When you started tweeting about what was going on, as a police officer, it was around that time when everything started really taking off? It was something around June to August, like 2015. But I mean, I've almost cut it off completely. What do you mean? Like no more social media, no more, or cut off the interviews?

I've kind of cut off a good chunk of interviewing because it's like, we're in this culture and mindset now where we're not focused on solutions. So I'm kind of just talking to myself. So I mean, it is good that some of you guys would do something like this, but largely, I won't go challenge. So the people that do want to talk to me are ultra liberal.

I already agree with everything I say. I'm not into preaching the choir because they don't care that I'm even getting how we're getting there. They just care that I agree with them. Right. And that's fucking pointless. Now, do you identify as an ultra liberal? Or are you, because I've also, I feel like I've heard you talk about some things

that may be considered libertarian as well. Or are you more, are you on that liberal side? So I would generally subscribe to say, like, drop all of those labels. Okay. And if the policy is good, then the policy or point has to stand on its individual merit, not these broader and composing things. You know, like, when I say, like, we can't talk about anything, when everybody wants to talk about Trump, what they're all talking about is their subjective opinions

of the way he behaves with subjective categories. Right. Like, you have to talk about policies for me to give a shit. What I did throughout my entire life, essentially as an officer, was be a good person trying to not be racist and ended up doing all these terrible actions. But that was because I wasn't focused on the principles and the individual thing. It was just like, I could be good, I could feel good, but how is that even relevant? Let's talk about that. As an officer in Baltimore, when did you start to really pick up that,

okay, this is not cool. What's happening, what I'm doing isn't cool. Let's talk about that a little for a second, for the people who are listening who might not know that story. I really don't know. I guess life kind of comes in like those steps. It's like some person. And I really think that that, as we talked about my book already earlier and I don't want to get too much into that, I'm not trying to be here to self-promote.

But the reason that book was written is because I had to get into the philosophies of what I was talking about. So my whole life, I was trying to be analytical and be scientific in like what the stat says, what the numbers were, be color blind, approach everything by the law. And what that just makes you, you just end up being a slave to the system. I thought we could be more professional in that system. So I had to go back and think about things like free will and whether we actually have

the ability to make our own decisions in life. And I think that that's what I really am. There is no me. That is somebody influenced me and pushed me a little bit more one way. Some other truth and experience pushed me another way. So anywhere where I put that line, I think is my own naivety in where that took place.

The things that kind of stand out is the drug war and seeing how it's completely pointless. So we were spending all this money going through all this work and I'm selling, I mean we're all myopic. So what I'm thinking is, is this pointless, why am I doing this type of work? My friends are out here and like these people,

these other cops are my friends. So I don't want to barge indoors where they're getting ready to take a bullet for something that is obviously pointless and hurting the actual community that we're doing. We're not improving things. So we all know that with the drug war, the prohibition doesn't work.

The first most violent period in this country's history was alcohol prohibition, and we maintain that with the drug war. And so I think most cops all have started to see the drug war aspect. The other side was really the internal thing. And getting promoted, it's not that we act like the police are a separate entity from the entire world

and even police act like that. But they're just fucking human beings and they're just employees doing a normal job and following what normal people do. So when all those problems we have in society are still internal within the police department. So the oligarchy of the police department, the Godot boy's club, they come down on the wrong thinkers.

They come down on anybody who bucks the system and doesn't want to get them exactly what they want to get. There's a lot of internal racism and disproportionate punishment for black officers, promotionary processes. And so I started to buck the department internally. I just thought that we could be better. It took me a really long time in being out of the police department

before I could step back and be like, oh shit, it doesn't matter how well we do this. The best way that we can do this, like, and everybody's idea of what perfect policing is, is that you don't see their violence. And that's, it just means you really want an effective cloak over putting people in a prison cell and treating them in a way that it's illegal to treat a dog. So that's kind of, it's at long progress.

I don't think there ever is. Are you, at this point, are you yet you're bucking the system? Are you getting kind of push, getting pushed back from your peers at all? I mean, that's the thing is that I already occurred a decade ago when I started doing that. So the first thing I did is I talk about this in a different opening, paragraphable book because I'm trying to tell the story of how professionalism changes in policing. And when I was a supervisor, I went out and I was a major case narcotics cop, which means I was way separated

from the police department. You know, I was doing drug work, I was hiding, I was spending my days in an isolated environment with a handful of people. Then I got promoted and went back to patrol and it was like, oh shit, like I'm responsible for this. These people don't know anything. You know, like my officers, I don't want to crap, but when I got there, like the opening joke was, I realized I needed to write a book about professionalism and what we need to do properly

because nobody on our shift could legally define what an arrest was. If you are an officer and do not know what an illegal arrest is, well, then we obviously have no business doing this job. We're just getting through by like practice, not actually knowing what we're doing and just the general acceptance of things. So other supervisors covered my butt a bit and work ethic and I sat, like covering the shifts and I sat down and wrote a 518 page book for how to be the perfect police officer in Baltimore,

how to get through the promotional processes and what that did was, is that level the playing field because the promotional system was all, it was like all black officers, majority black officers, and then sergeants were less black officers, then lieutenants were even less. And then as you kept going up less and less,

until you get to the top, because then you need all your tokens. So then the top levels back out again, by their hands licking, but those are like the good, it's not black and white anymore, it's classes. So those are like the good, like, it's not black and white anymore. It's classes. So those are just the rich elite oligarchy kind of good old boys network that had color. So you end up with being the same type of things on the top of the

agency. And so when I wrote my book, I started coaching people how to get promoted because they didn't want me to get promoted, but they couldn't stop me because there is a relatively objective promotional system. But what they do is they control who has access to the information. And I didn't allow them to do that. What I did is I took the whole stack of all the knowledge that policing does, and I condensed it down to that one book, allowed every single person in the agency to have it, started doing classes. Our first group of sergeants, we had 50 sergeants get promoted each two, like two year go around,

and 25 of them were people that I taught. That was way too much power for a sergeant to have in the police department. And that's really started. That was my downfall. By the time I got attention publicly, there wasn't a person in the Baltimore police department that was surprised any of this was taking place. Oh wow. Now the public attention came from other things. So the public attention came from,

I believe was it a series of tweets that you had put out that kind of got people's attention and then we had the shooting of, I think it was Freddie Gray and Baltimore, which kind of embroiled everything. Is that how you started getting that public attention? Well, the Freddie Gray preceded me. So you could say that.

That happened for me. The reason why people paid attention to me is, the Freddie Gray preceded me. So you could say that- That happened for me. Yeah, the reason why people pay attention to me is because of Freddie Gray's death. So everybody was looking at Baltimore at that moment. And with, I mean, I was- And so they're looking at Baltimore and then you start- What's saying all this shit?

This is not new. I mean, I've ran my mouth for years. What type, what, you're familiar with? I thought we talked about overstepped right? He's getting overstepped right here because I want to figure out this time frame right now and because how where's the wire at? Like what is it? Has the show as a show started yet or is that after? It shows over. Okay, so everybody knows. I was gonna say I feel like that would draw a ton of attention to Baltimore just from that alone. That draws attention to the violence.

So we had attention. I really think there was a window between 2015 and when the elections started for this presidential cycle that we were focused on solutions. And so that's what I am. I talk about solutions more, but I use essentially violence porn

to get into the discussion about police reform and what we need to do. So I kind of just tell the stories, not enabling anybody. I'm not a snitch, which is obviously a critique I've had. People on the left will criticize that extremely heavily that I'm not snitching. So you're not telling people on people, right? But I mean, people have been doing that for centuries. It's completely ineffective. Once I'm a snitch, once I'm an actual rat, then nobody in policing will ever listen to me.

So that's why I haven't done that. Interesting. So again, let's talk again about, or go back to what then started to get to that public notoriety. What were the things that you were talking about revealing at the time? Yeah, so that was the violence point. What were the things that you were talking about revealing at the time? Yeah, so that was the violence point.

So talking about things that I've witnessed that cops deny. And I think what I was, oh, I remember what it was. I was frustrated because the FOP union, my union, which I'm still a member of, because whenever I get arrested, it's weird how they don't ever stand up and defend me. I remember, I don't understand.

But I guess that's their own bias there. Where was I going? About what got you there. I don't know how up and defend me. I remember, I don't understand. But I guess that's the wrong bias there. Where was I going? About what got you there. I don't know. So the union that they issued this statement, which essentially was like, there's nothing we could have done wrong here. You're crazy to blame these officers.

And what happened with Freddie Gray's, he was essentially arrested, chased down in the street for suspected of drug dealing. He didn't have any drugs on him. So they threw him in a van and gave him this bullshit charge, which really isn't, it's like having a shrewing assistant knife, which is a complete bullshit charge. And so they put him in a van, he dies in the van on the way to booking to jail to be processed. And they wanted to deny all responsibility.

But like this is a situation where it's like, no, there is no fucking possible way that your police department is not responsible to get somebody to the prison cell safely and intact. The idea that you can deny responsibility under this situation, like the moment we arrest somebody, they are in our custody, their life is in our hands, their freedom is in our hands, we have the absolute responsibility

to ensure their safety, that's ridiculous. So I said if I was just thinking to myself, if you wanna deny the shit that we do, let's be honest about all the shit that we've all seen, you know, that, I mean, like, come on, this is surface shit. Like, let an officer deny this stuff. So, yeah, I just started trying to tweet those things

that I've seen, yeah, I've been around and not said shit about. And one of the main things there is like, I'm the prototype. I have zero use of force complaints against me in the city of Baltimore working in the hood, making 496 arrests in five years. I arrested an average of 100 people a year

when I was on the street. Okay, zero use of force complaints. That's a lot of arrested. If I'm still in ask, is that normal? How many is that compared to a normal of force. That's a lot of arrested. If I'm still in ask. Is that normal? How many is that compared to a normal cop? That sounds like a lot. Oh yeah. So like policing is probably like again, it's the same as every other job. So there are less than 10% of us that do all the work. Oh, I said. So you were one of the most arresting officers if you was. Oh, I certainly wasn't a leader.

There were people that were way more dedicated than I was. I mean, I would have been in that top 10%, but I would have been floating at the 10, 9% range. You know, I wasn't in the top. These guys would be crazy and work overtime, and I wasn't an overtime fan. Wow. So what's it like to be,

because I feel when I hear all these cases of issues against police officers and there's issues of racism and you know overuse of force and we see videos of many times of what seems to be blatant problems, I also at the same time think to myself like it's got to be hard to be a police officer to have that kind of discretion, but then to deal in those situations. When you're arresting 100 people, you know, was a month, did you say? A year. A year. When you're arresting 100 people a year, that's only a small percentage of the amount of

counters that you have or situations that you're in. What's that got to be like? How does that change and shift your mindset and how you see things? Yeah. I mean, that's actually quite deep. I really want to get into all that. I would because it's rare that we get somebody who's as honest as you are who's done that kind of work.

So, I think you have, you have like an emotional aspect to it and then you have, I guess, the normal work idea of what you're doing. And it's even like me, I'm not criticizing police officers. I'm not criticizing human beings. I'm criticizing the system. So it's the system that we have to have a problem with. But I think what we do as cops is that becomes part of our identity.

Like being a cop is who you are. And when that becomes attacked, it feels like even the criticism of policing, of whether you send somebody to jail for having a flower in their pocket, if you're going to do that, that still becomes who you are. You have to believe that those things are good because not only are you out there executing that every day, you're probably your parents did, this is usually family issue, so there's all this cultural around you that's telling you that.

Good point, so it's like if I'm doing this, I have to believe it's good, otherwise it fucks with your psyche. Yeah, I mean, and it's who you are, this way cops and soldiers, I think one reason why you have a lot of these suicides is also because they've lost their identity, and it hasn't been replaced with something else.

So what I try to do is say policing is bad, but we can replace it with these other ideas so they try and, and feel that. Now, I'm really fucking terrible at effectively communicating that message. But that's what I'm trying to do is get that aspect. Now, so me personally, when it comes to that side, is I never took the job personally.

I never integrated it as part of my identity, which was just, I don't know, I mean, that's just bullshit happenstance from something that happened when I was younger. I was in the same way, and maybe we can blame the Marine Corps. I mean, I remember getting off that bus and like them yelling at you to get on the footsteps and like,

I couldn't help but think like, you're a fucking grown man, yelling at me, like a child. What the fuck is wrong with you? Like, there's no way yelling at me, like a child. What the fuck is wrong with you? Like there's no way I'm gonna, like I'm gonna do this because I wanna do it and it sounds like fun. Like I wanna go have the rifle and run up the hill. But if you think that, like, being honest and so,

that being so true as a kid, you know what I'm saying? That's what you're thinking about, let's be honest. Totally, so I want to do that. But the idea that I'm gonna run around going, urah urah, fuck marine core, like, no way. So I wanted to do everything I could to mask myself from being a marine when I was away from Marines. And I wanted to do that in policing. Like, my neighbors would not have been able to tell you I was a cop. Now, do you believe that's necessary, though? Do you think it's necessary that they think it was

very beneficial? So I did two things that I thought were beneficial psychologically and helped me get to some better places. One was, I ended up moving out to the county, or the actually another state technically, but because a lot of cops say, there's no middle class in these cities, so you can't afford to live where you are, you have to go to the suburbs. But what that did is that gave me a 45-minute drive every day where I kind of transitioned a mentality. So I would be home. Like two versions of you.

Yeah, totally, there was definitely two versions. And I would kind of like transition on the way to work and then on the way home, it would be my time to like, even sometimes it would be just complete silence, just kind of like decompress. I mean, we've seen things like nine-year-old girls with their brains splattered on the ground.

And that shit is really what lingers with you. And I think police have it really bad when it comes to the psychological trauma from what the job does. But I think that thing helped me, that wind down allowed me to transition out of that mode and help me prevent from bringing those things home with me, which is obviously another thing cops do.

Extremely bad is take that home. But I put myself into the shit. Well, I mean, isn't that where the fun is. I grew up watching the wire. I didn't want to work writing a county mountain, writing tickets to you guys. I think the point of that, I didn't want to do that. And so if I was gonna go, I wanted to be the one

that would Omar would come around the corner of face. That's how I felt. That's the way I was going to go, I wanted to be the one that would Omar would come around the corner face. You know, that's how I felt. Like that's the way I was. So you got big chip right around there. Well, I mean, I don't know how older you are right there when you're thinking like this. 24, 25. Yeah, so I was always the kind,

I would find the biggest person on the block, challenge them, punk them, do something I could to be the boss on that block. Cause I mean, that's what policing is. It's violence. Now, where does that personality stem from? Does that go all the way back to your childhood? Like, did you get bullied?

Did you bully get growing up? What was home life like for you? No, I would say that I was... I know you're a do you thinker, I know you have this. I would say I liked violence. And I tried to funnel away That society accepted. Yeah, but why what did that come from? I know you know you're smart guy No, no, no, I think people are all biology plus their experiences. So that might have been all biology

Oh, you think so and and so I think we're all born with a plate of what our DNA does and then every experience we have So this is why there is no free will, but the reason that is so important is literally we have an obligation to the every single person next to us because we are providing an experience that fundamentally changes who they actually are. And those experiences throughout time,

they could have been like good things. Like I could have seen, which is a very cool way to look at it. Yeah, well, I think it's the right way. Yeah, but do you think everyone thinks like that? No, not at all. I think we're not there yet. So that's why I wrote the book. And the first chapter of my book is free will and autonomy.

Because I don't think we're autonomous creatures. So I got into this thing where I am, and I think we're all that way. Like somebody has ADD and somebody has, you know, a Tourette's or whatever, but these are all just, I think they're all just differences in us. And the real trick is focusing even our flaws to an area where our flaws are advantageous. So you're saying we're not autonomous

and we don't have free will. You're saying we're just kind of operating in this like fateful path? Not fate, we're not autonomous and we don't have free will. You're saying we're just kind of operating in this like fateful path. Not fate. We're an equation. So we are the end result of what we were born with. Right. So that's going to give us genetic predispositions like being violent or you're a dola

abla and gada doesn't get you might get onry. Why's you, you know, because I'm alligator. Just don't have all that teeth and no toothbrush. So, you know, you can have all those things, but then you stop and go on, from then you are formulated by how everyone else experiences and the things that happen to you add to what that biology was. So nature and nurture combined.

Right, it's always combined. Sure, sure. And so, like the easiest example I say of this when you talk about, so do you know that identical twins who have the exact same set of DNA do not have the same fingerprints? The reason they don't have the same fingerprints is because fingerprints are formed in the womb. So the baby or the fetus is in the womb presses up against the sides, presses itself, and

that's what creates your fingerprint pattern. And so even in the womb, those fetuses, just those mere touches on the barrier of the womb, they ended up changing fundamentally and enruining the identicalness of those twins. They are not identical. They do not have the same fingerprints. Are you familiar with some of the science and studies on epigenetics and how our experiences change how our DNA is expressed. I've heard scientists refer to it as like, your DNA loads the gun, but how you live or whatever is what pulls the trigger. Yeah, I mean, that would certainly make sense as you have the way you're explaining it right now. Now, I've heard ep explain as like, oh my mom was beaten by my dad,

so I know what it's like to get punched in the face as the beach spout. And it's like, no. So like sure, stress can literally change your DNA. But we're getting into things now that's even more dramatic than that when it comes to biology, that we can probably unlock the keys

to switching sexes in mid-stripe. We can, our DNA, I forget whether 7 or 9% is actually from other species in viruses, where they get into us and then their code goes into our code. Our DNA has like banana DNA in it. It has Zika DNA in it, it has all these things. And our bodies are not even the mass of us. There's more bacteria and other creatures in us. We are more like Votron or something.

We are, we are like, it's kid off. It's kid off. It's kid off. So we're like this overarching. We're like the Borg, but we think we're one. And we're unaware of all those other influences. If your bacteria in your asshole is not optimal,

your life will be dramatically changed and provide you different experience. There you go. Adam has no bacteria. Adam has no bacteria. He's his wet wife sometimes. That's right. So you've talked a lot, you've talked a lot in the past about some of the racism and

race issues that you saw as a police officer. Let's dive into that a little bit and maybe even in this context, there's some pretty alarming statistics when we talk about race. A couple that I've read in the past and maybe you can correct me if these are wrong but I have read them. I think they're from the FBI crime statistics. So it was something like African-Americans make up under 15% of the population, but commit something like over 50% of the, you know, the violent crime, for example. Do you think that that has an impact on, you know, maybe epigenetics later on and maybe that's perpetrating a problem

that doesn't seem to want to change your girl way or do you think it's a system that's causing a lot of that? Okay, so I'll make it with the first of a couple of blanket statements. Yes. I, after traveling this nation, I've been to almost all 50 states or the last few years talking to people,

real people, not like media, because they're gonna lie to shit to you. Of course. I don't find racism in this country. Really? I find a lot of culturalism, and I think the racism is extremely rare. Wow, has your position changed?

Yeah, it's over time, or? No, because the thing is the system is racist, which I keep trying to say, I don't even think, like when you point out these instances of somebody being, like even if they have racist actions, you don't have any place to say that was fueled by a racist's intent. Okay.

So I mean, my actions were racist. They were disproportionate and racist. So how so, how so were they, were they disproportionate racist? 496 of those people I locked up, like 450 of them were black males. So you mean it's just disproportion, it's racist in the sense that more were black than white, but not racist in the sense that you were seeking out

to arrest more black than white. So here's what's racist about it. So crime is, when you say the FBI statistics, this is why I blatantly have no problem saying any criminal justice professor that would like to debate me, please bring it up. Your field is a religion and an ideology. It has no science at all whatsoever to it.

And that was a perfect example. Crime is a measurement of what a police officer does. It is not a measurement of what citizens do. So even if we say, so how so, how so. Right, so this is what literally what the status is, is what you were saying is that black men or arrested 50% more than other people

for these offenses. That's literally what you're saying, because it's cops arresting them. It's not, we're not omniscient. We don't know the crime has taken place. What we, the only way we know is homicide. So if you take something like drugs, so if we know that white communities, black communities,

don't, they use drugs that roughly the same rate, if not more in the white side. So now, do you think there are more cocaine, people in possession of cocaine in Wall Street or on West Baltimore? Right, right, right. I see your point, but there's gonna be more cops in West Baltimore.

So you're measuring what police do. So police arrest black men for offenses. Police do not go to Wall Street and arrest those people. So now what happens is they're black men in that area for certain reasons. They're black because we had red lining in the past. You had things set up with segregation. So you have the historical things that we didn't change in our systems. We changed our culture quite effectively. We didn't change these things in our systems. So you have these pockets of this opportunity essentially and we clustered the people that we didn't, you know, slaves lower class. It's really lower class. It's not just, I mean, this shit happens in West Virginia. Yeah. Right. So it's just the lower class. The lower class is clustered into these

areas. And because we force black people into lower classes, then they end up getting the brunt up. Now racism, it's classism, but the race is linger. Now, if we take, because I am 100% on board with you with the war on drug, I think it's the single worst assault on liberty that we've ever done in the government to arrest someone thrown in a cage or even worse over doing nothing but hurting themselves, I think is an absolute travesty. But if we take that out and we just look at homicides,

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that, most, I'd say 97% of homicides are reported. I'd say most homicides are probably reported. You can safely go around the highway. You can go safely go around the highway. But when we look at homicides, there's still a disproportionate, and by the way, most people kill people

of the same rate. So this is people kill people that they look like. No, but there's people kill people that they're familiar with. That they're familiar with. Okay, but there's still a disproportionate percentage of like minor, especially black Americans, that commit more of the homicides. Do you think that that is, what do you think that's the result of? Is it the result or maybe the side effect of the war on drugs?

Because they're more effective and they're affected by that and there's a black market for it. Do you think that there's systemic violence that comes from the system? I mean, what is your opinion on that? Yeah, I think some of your epigenetics talk plays into that.

We're not gonna be able to narrow that down because that's gonna be on an individual basis. So I very much as a scholar do not care about outliers and anecdotes. Okay. So here's, we have four cars. One of the biggest things I'm trying to do is figure out what the actual causes of crime is. That's what the change I want to do. I want to stop investigating how a crime is committed and start investigating why a crime is going to get it. It's a huge difference. All we do is investigate how a bank was robbed. We don't investigate, or do we do anything to end up why this person got there.

We won't prevent robberies without figuring out why they asked. What a great point it is. Yeah, exactly. So that's why I say our system is entirely nonsense of what we're doing. We're not even investigating why something happened. So the four correlates that there are. Number one is environmental poisoning

highlighted most abundantly by lead poisoning. Now there are studies that say that lead poisoning accounts for 90% of the violence in the world. This is, I've read this by the way, since we went from lead to unleaded gasoline, we saw a dramatic decrease in violence. Okay, so I'll give that story real quick. So this is everywhere with

unleaded gas and lean. So one reason the theory I don't I don't know enough about the rise, but they also can say that this is the rise of violent crime was when we put the lead lead in the gas. What did I have heard? Yeah, lead causes people to be more violent. Yeah. So what what ended up happen is in 1972 the cafe standards went in to reduce emissions. Part of that was taken the lead out of of the gas It has a 19 year delay because this only matters when you poison children So that's why lead paint poisoning and stuff like that still matters so much is because it's only for a adult now I mean a child adults will get sick But they won't have a propensity for crime because they don't have the biological effects of it lowers the size of your Umbulamab, Avlangada it does

I forget all these other things. It just tons of different medical problems that lower your control of impulsivity and empathy, things like that. So, and that's literally what lead does as an adult just makes you sick and can kill you. But, so the kids do this and you have a 19 year delay, 19 to 22 year delay,

because you gotta be able bodied males before they can carry that out. And so, you're using it's always males that commit crime too. I mean, we're obviously physically capable. We have testosterone, we're dumbasses. We all know this. Okay, so after you get the lead out and you have sort of having the 90s had that nationwide

reduction in crime, that's just staggering. And it just drops off. Okay, and then in the early 90s, late 80s, the New York City Health Department began fighting lead poisoning at a higher rate than anybody else in this entire country. New York City is unquincidentally 19 years later the safest city in the entire country. Which is a huge contrast to where they were. But for every other city too.

Okay. That is having problems. Baltimore, Chicago, LA, none of these cities attacked lead poisoning. The only place that did it was New York, and now they are the safest city. And here's the other thing that I can say is staggering about this at a national level. So this has been tested in Australia. In New York, they know it down to the block.

They can do this block by block where you were exposed to lead when you were younger. Australia has done this confirmed it in England all over. New Zealand has done it and confirmed it. And most recently, the study in New Zealand was talking about nation nationally or worldwide where it is. And there are two countries that are still using lead at gasoline today. Yemen and Iran. Iraq. So even in those the Middle East was the last place to start using, start getting rid of lead at gasoline. So violence and terrorism is also going to be majority fueled by lead poisoning, not by all these other bullshit issues.

Never fucking heard that. So human beings, number one fundamental ability is a cooperation. We, we, we shit on ourselves and act like we're violent. And it's, it's kind of crazy. We are the most cooperative species that's ever existed on this planet. We look at ants with amazement, but step back and look at what we fucking did. And I would, this whole world is transformed.

It's constantly getting more peaceful. We're utilizing things better. People are living longer, higher quality of living all around the world. So really what we want to do is cooperate. And there's all these things that fuck up our biology. This lead poisoning is your biology. And so that's the same thing in all these cities. So you know right now in Flint,

there's still gonna be having violent crime in 19 years. Baltimore is still gonna be having violent crime in 19 years, Chicago. All these places will be because they are not fighting lead poisoning. There is not a single police department in this entire world that is fighting led poising right now.

The number two correlate to violent crime is income inequality. It is not poverty. We like to look at it as being poverty, but there are plenty of poor tribes in Africa that don't own a fucking apple between all of them and commit no violence. They're also not led poising, shocker.

So it's when you see inequality, Baltimore literally has no middle classworld literally has no middle class. Chicago has no middle class. LA has no middle class. So all you have is income inequality staring you in your face constantly. So that fuels certain things, the other thing is local instability.

Local instability is things like fathers being taken out of the home, the inability to drive down the street without being pulled over by cops jobless markets things like that or the third factor and then the fourth is the actual police themselves because they are the answer of violence Vio violence Did you just put all this together? I've heard you on multiple interviews and I haven't heard this Yeah, I haven't heard you said talk about this yet. So this is within the last year and a half Wow, so the most thing my scholar in heavily researching this right. It's this is all I do, like 12% I mean, I'm a scholar. That's what I do.

Yeah, lead is an interesting one. They've made that connection actually quite strong in the past, yeah, that's a well known one. And then you mentioned the instability. One of the most accurate predictors of whether or not a kid is going to grow up violent or in jail or not successful is if they grow up violent or in jail or not successful as if they grow up in a single parent household.

And that doesn't matter how much money or how little money you have, not having a father in the home is the best predictor. It's not the only predictor, but it seems to be one of the best social predictors as to whether or not a kid is going to have a child. Yeah, and I would totally think about some of those issues is we have to be careful about whether something is a symptom or a predictor. So we do this things now with gender. It's a really good one.

So we say things like companies who are diverse are more efficient or operate better, have better ideas. But we get this because in the past, the companies that have been successful have had diverse things. So the diversity is a symptom of their success, not a cause. And what we try to do is we try to force the different genders or whatever into those roles, which is not going to fix the problem at all because you end up making it actually worse and not bringing in those people that we want because you're looking for a symptom instead of the cause.

And that's the same thing with fatherless homes. It's not having a father there is good because it's actually involvement. It's not actual presence in the house. It's whether the father is involved or not. But the father not being involved, the majority of that, okay, nothing is blanket. These are all just what is most likely. It's because they are subject to a symptom of the system that's bad.

So the reason they're not there is because somebody like me was hunting them down. The reason they're not there is because they can't get a job so they had to go do something else. So all of those legacy issues that remain in the system compound on people like kind of like hurdles.

And I don't want to get it to into black because black is also just another one of those symptoms of low classness. It's, they took it, they had low class people and they put blackness into low class and kind of clustered those people back that way. It didn't happen the other way around. So they're more representative of the people

that the government classes as lower. I mean, the people in West Virginia, they can't get jobs in our home with their family. They're going through the exact same shit. There's still more white people locked up than black people in this country. We gotta really drop the race things. When we talk about the race thing,

the other issue is I strongly, an adamant for one, race is not biological. It is not fucking real. It is a social construct. And the mere use of the terms, whether your black or not, assures the hierarchy of racism will be imposed. And not only if you identify as black,

you're not only identifying as something else, black is already predefined to be that which stands against whiteness. So you're actually remaining controlled because you must be the opposite of whiteness. And if whiteness is being rational, you might start saying some fucking crazy shit like, you know, this happening in public right now.

Right, right, right, interesting. Yeah, it's interesting because- So what the fuck do we do? Yeah, what is this? Where do we start? Where do we start? I mean, experiences for each person. And it sounds stupid, but like, somebody like me,

they often get on me because I can talk to somebody and I'm not getting along with the person that I'm talking to, right? But I'm not fucking talking to them. I'm not talking to you guys right now. I'm talking to the audience and the people that are listening, all of those experiences. For every single time you guys come into this office,

sure you might only be talking to one another when you're in here, but all of those words are an experience for somebody else. And I don't think that we should think that any of us are the night that's gonna go in there and change it. We're just like one of the farmers tilling the field and hopefully, you know, that figure will come up.

But to think that we can be that figure is probably, it's just really unlikely as it requires so many other coincidences to follow. It's funny because, you know, you're talking, we talked about fatherless homes, and you're saying it's more of a symptom rather than a cause of certain things. And it's funny when you look at the rate

of single parent household really started to take off when we started to subsidize single parent households and the war on drugs. And you can see that clearly, for example, African American households, for a lot of American history, their single-parent household rate was lower than that of white Americans, and then it started to really take off

and now it's something like 70-something percent of white Americans. How do you, so you advocate for ending the war on drugs? Are there any things that you think that we can do concrete for police officers that might help things out? Like do you think body we can do concrete for police officers that might help things out?

Like do you think body cameras will be in it, will be in effect, you don't? No, body cameras are a tool. Any tool, it works for the person who controls it. You don't control the body cameras, the police do. So there are a tool that will be used to their advantage, not to your advantage. That's one reason why you don't see a lot of videos. They happen to not work every single time. Really? I mean, dude, I had dash cameras in a couple of cars,

especially back then. That thing was never gonna work. Are you crazy? And you're gonna do things to intentionally. Battery's always dying. Yeah, or the wire goes by. That's right. Of course, you know, so that's a known thing that happens.

And so you can try to go around that. But what you're ended up doing there is you're still saying that I want to enact our violence in the way that is cloaked the most because there's no camera in their prison cell when they're getting treated like shit for the next however many years of being subject to a system.

So the body cameras, yeah, if you control them, they could be good. I just have a lot of leariness about people's privacy when it comes to body care. And people say, it's just like streaming live. Like, you fucking kidding me. You're gonna stream the world. You're gonna stream the Orwellian future live

from the perspective of the cops. Katty, what do you think? That's a good point. That's a good point. That would be like China. Right, Singapore, something that's on the worse than China, I mean China's actually gotten capitalists against kind of westernized. Oh, did you see though, they're starting

to the rating system. Yeah, they have a rating system and they have the, they have the facial recognition cameras that will automatically find you if you J walked and they have this. England's already been doing that for, yeah, decade. Yeah. Yeah. Now, isn't that crazy? I mean, like that's the social media. We'll put our stuff on their voluntary. They don't even need to do it to Americans. Yeah, we'll volunteer it. There's my, my whole models. Is that what our boy calls them? Yeah. It's true though.

But I mean, your point about the father of the homes too, I think that this is the points where Justin's boy, Jesse Lee Peterson, this is where these areas where like, he's right and I feel like anyone that's trying to, we're so tribalistic that even a point like that where somebody like him is right, will ignore it because we just other him, like he's othering everybody else and we're just kind of being hypocrites in that same system. But he grew up in a world where the fathers were in their home

and isolated on their ideas and getting the black community and isolating and doing what you can to progress forward. He believes ideas like, yeah, you're not gonna change and have family success in one generation. You're just kind of incrementally stepping up and if black people start it at a lower foot step, he's like, shut the fuck up and just keep climbing.

And I can understand that, I feel that way. I'm a poor white kid and I'm constantly told because I was white and male, that somehow this is some kind of advantage on me in my entire life. You know, like when I've been, I've had the whole time I was in the police department, all my bosses were black.

You know, so it's like every time I get into an environment where they say something like, you have to listen to black people. Well, this is one reason why we have to recognize that a race is not real. Your status as a minority individual does not give you enhanced knowledge on a subject. If you're involved in a car crash, you don't suddenly understand physics better than somebody that studied. You got any pushback from that sense? Yeah, I guess I get more pushback from that pride than

anything else. Yeah, that race is a lot more. Yeah, which is stupidly difficult for me to deal with now, because now I can actually talk to the right and I can't talk to the left. And I'm in the twilight zone now. I have no idea what happened. You can say I'm a blind pulmonary. Yeah, where are you?

You hang out with my. Yeah, where are you, my? So I mean, I really have been facing that cultural thing that stands in the way of that progress. Well, let's talk about cultures then. What do you see in the different cultures within America? What are the different values that you see? Is that even important to examine?

Or is it important to absolve all of it? Yeah, I don't think I see different values. I think we ultimately want the same things, but we're told these narratives. I mean, that's the whole thing. Race was literally created by the elites in the government. The first record we have of race was 1667 in Virginia. They had slave class that was white and black and everything,

and they were trying to justify how, figure out how they could legally make it that the white people would stop being slaves, and they still needed their slaves. So who was the other, it was the black guys, because we already have that thing. So we need to make a category to make them different. And that's when they got to be black was in that law

only 350 years ago. So where the hell was they even going? Oh, it's not real, like none of that is real. Actually, culturally people just want to be safe. They want their family and their children to go to school and have a good education. And they want to feel like they if they work hard then things will go well for them and I just don't find that happening anywhere

differently and so I go no matter what city I go to they all tell me about how their city is unique and then they for they go on to Rattle off the same list of problems that I heard in 49 other previous cities You know and it's like I don't think we're different I think we all really want the same thing. And we're allowing the others of the elites essentially to control these narratives and to say, so if you're liberal now, then you blame Trump. And if you're Republican now, then you blame the crazy lefties.

You're both right to a certain extent, but you're both extremely wrong in thinking that that's a different person. If we don't focus on just the ideals, then we're arguing against individuals. And that's a huge frustration to me. The last two, three years of my life, I've been dealing with people arguing about me and criticizing me and will not focus at all on what the fuck I'm saying. And I'm always just like, look, I went in any of these conversations

that I purport to be a good person. Like, criticizing me is like totally. That's easy. It's not, I mean, it's been, it's been conceited to move on. Yeah, to the solution to big picture. Right. And we, we won't really seem to get there now. So I would really like us to step back

and really embrace the idea that Americanism does unite all of us. We are all Americans. And if you're saying they're going, well, I'm African-American, I'm this American. The whole fucking point is that you're American and the rules here are different. Like there's no cultural appropriation in America. Shut up.

It's the point of the entire country is that we appropriate all the cultures, so we make something better. And that's the way any of this is. It's not about that I'm right. It's that I have done a bunch of research and figured out things that are wrong. And then the next person needs to figure out more things that are wrong and chew it up together. We don't need to take these things all on this personal individual step on each other kind of idea. We can all just be Americans trying to make America better. I agree. A completely what do you think? Why do you think they try to separate us so much? Why do you think that they want? They say men versus women gave versus straight black versus white.

You know, why do you think they push that so hard? And is it because people like to identify that way or do you think that they're trying to manipulate us by separating us? I think that we have our internal issues, which are, I don't think we have a culture anymore, or who knows we ever did. We don't challenge ourselves in mass. So if I don't, we go around telling people

all these things that we know and all these things we believe in these opinions you have, but I'm not, I just can't respect someone's opinion that hasn't challenged themselves yet and challenges their own ideals and put them so I'm often trying to challenge people about their identities, but they haven't challenged their identity to themselves yet. So my words are kind of flying over their, I don't want to like downgrade them and say it's flying over their head, but we do definitely need to get into a place where we critically think and challenge our own thoughts and beliefs. I mean, this is like basic, socratic method stuff, but we get away from that and I think

that's because of money. I mean, there are people now that are buying up and reading three books about Trump that are completely false, absolutely nonsense, but yet because we're in these tribes, and that tribe says they hate where they can make a bunch of money selling this book, and then that people can sell a bunch of bunch of things. I mean, what I talk about doesn't get a lot of listens,

doesn't get a lot of views, because I'm trying to talk about ways to bring us together when we kind of been indoctrinated to think about ways we're better than the other person. Yeah, yeah, it's more profitable. Are you optimistic? Do you think we're on the right track or do you think we're, are you, how do you feel about it?

Two years ago, I really felt we were on the right track. Maybe we need what Trump is doing to like be like the kick or something whether you're whether good bad and different What do you mean by that? What do you mean sort of banding us together? Yeah, I mean so even if it's if it's rallying us around or making us like what if Maybe afterwards we can stand back and when people will be like look the dude ended up, what if he has eight years of good policy and all everybody do a shit on him? Well, I think that will expose it, you know, that it is, it is, it is, our tribalistic things and maybe if it's out there, we can do it. I think we're talking about it more. I think social media help us, but I also think that social media hurts and gets it's clustered in the more.

Like, I found myself doing that. I find my, I don't want to, but I did a Facebook purge. I just find myself just starting to lead in some of the shit I just couldn't tolerate seeing anymore. And then I'm the person that deleted of 50,000 Twitter follower account. So I wish we could change, but I'm certainly... Now talk about that, not very smart business decision that you're selling a book, and you do it.

Talk about what's going through your head. Because you're a very intelligent guy, and you have to know that's not a smart move if you're trying to sell your book. It's not a smart move now. I'm very convinced that being authentic is the future. I think the science says that as well, our current president would suggest that as well.

And we agree. It's one of our core values here. So, stay authentic. I really believe that it might, I might be dead before it matters. But if I were the sellout and influenced now, I don't think my words and biases and prejudices would be pure.

I'm not trying to make money. That book exists so that people can reference it. I literally put it out and I haven't finished yet. I have the first 15 chapters on a podcast where I'll just talk about it and go over it. I'm not trying to bogate the information. It's out in different articles for the most point. My point is that everything I do when I create material is just to make the material there. So other people can reference it if they so desire, hoping that other people will

be able to point them that way. I just won't be able to do that myself and get that information out there. But I mean, deleting the account, I felt like things just got to vitriol and Twitter was a platform that wasn't working for solutions and I can see myself, I'm a blunt fucking instrument. I don't know why that gets misper see myself, I'm a blunt fucking instrument. I don't know why that gets misperceived that I'm gonna have a tongue that's not harsh. But, you know, if I'm only taken in two sentence snippets, right, don't do it.

Yeah, it comes off really fucking promise. Twitter, right? Yeah, everything is misconstrued. Yeah, so I say things like races aren't real. Crime is a measurement of police activity, you know, not citizen activity and all these things where it's just, we know it, but if you're not kind of taking through that softly, I don't think it's effective.

Has it been, has it been challenging for you? Like how's it challenged you personally? Because you came out, you did all these podcasts, you talked about all these different things. I'm sure you had people attacking you like crazy. You're saying you deleted your, your 50,000 Twitter account, which is worth lots of money, like Adam was saying, because you said people attacking you like crazy. You're saying you deleted your 50,000 Twitter account, which is worth lots of money. Like Adam was saying, because you said it got vitriolic.

Like, how has that been for you? Has it been stressful? Yeah, I mean, I really, I have, I think I had someone in the middle of kind of step-and-bag and even figuring out who I am in the discussion and what my role would be, the misperception of my caring concern, like I don't know if it's just people want to find a reason to not listen,

but it comes to be like, oh, trying to make money or making, you know, getting profits off of black exploitation and all that stuff. So I think I tried to protect myself and start it like controlling my own words. And I think a lot of what people liked about me the first time they saw me on Rogan, that the publicity took away.

And so I've been trying to figure out how to get back to that place in a world that will only focus on the one word I slip on or something like that. Or will not be looking, they'll literally take like a Kavanaugh and you're more worried about secret accusations that have absolutely no evidence or something to terrify. Well, that because they know the controversies what will drive ratings for them. So they're going to be biased just because of that. I know that if I get you hanging on something and I argue with you, it makes for better TV. So that's what we've done to media.

Right, are you done that to ourselves? You came across, and your first interview on Rogan as just very honest, but also not ready for this explosion of what's gonna happen. I don't mean that in the slightest. I told that by others, no worries. I don't mean that as an insult. What told that by others, no worries. I don't mean that as an insult. What I mean by that is, there's definitely things

that could have been easily taken at a context because you were in the spotlight now. Now you're in this position where you're gonna say things and people, because you're saying things that could mean a lot, shining a light on things that some police officers do that, a lot of people don't want want light to be shined on. You got, you were gonna get picked apart and get, you know,

and get torn into pieces. And, you know, as I watched that, I'm like, holy shit, this, I can see that he wasn't even ready for what was about to come after him. What was the hardest moment of that? Because you're saying now you're taking a step back and you're kind of like, okay, I need to control my words. Was there one thing that happened that like the straw that broke the camel's back? We're like, I fucked this.

Yeah, definitely. It doesn't get talked about a lot, but my involvement in Standing Rock. Okay. So after I ended up being asked to go and help support the protesting and standing rock, which, so I talk about policing. It's history is it's actually was fermented and ended up doing three different things. It's the creation and maintenance of oppressed classes and then using those oppressed classes and using them to fund their own oppression. So this is done by like taking cops out of the hood. And these are things I get in arguments like black lives matter.

They want cops from the neighborhood. I was like, oh, so you want a cop from the neighborhood that knows everybody. Do you think I lock up my friends? Guys, come on. I'm not gonna happen. And you want that guy to come from the neighborhood, be subjected to all those bad things

and then start issuing tickets to your own people so that he can pay his own pocketbook and over time to make himself not be subjected to the laws of, so cops what we do is we're still poor, we're still a press class, but we're not subjected to the laws like the elites aren't subjected to the laws period and neither are cops for the most part. The second thing is the, what was the second one? I don't even know my own thing.

Are you quoting your book right now? No, this is an old work. Anyway, the second thing, and the third thing was the continued genocide of the Native Americans. So that was... So you went and protested for that? Right, so they were all genocide of the Native Americans. So that was- So you went and protested for that? Right, so they were all three of the different,

what policing does in that same area being carried out all at once. So it was like, okay, so this is police wise and I got kind of dragged into like, an echo terrorist environmentalist. I'm like, yeah man, I'm here because of the police for shitty. I don't really even care about this water issue or oil issue.

What happened? Who was coming after you with that? Well, I mean, at that time, so we started the fundraiser, started the veteran stand movement, got thousands of vets to go up there, raised a million dollars to give, like, cover their travel expenses and all the stuff up there. Mission was successful largely. There was a bunch of issues up there. I thought was PTSD, but I can't,

that's not really the issue. What happened was, it was in that part of the movement and actions of any of this kind of reform stuff, that I know there was good people there, but in the higher ups within who had access to me, the entire fucking group was about their own profit and exploitation and how they were going to achieve the next step that kind of got their message out there. So you helped them without it in realizing it?

No, I didn't. Okay. This is the straw. Yeah. All right. And so my whole purpose and the whole thing the whole time is that we're servants, we served the standing rock sue, and then everybody there was talking like how they were gonna do shit,

what they wanted to do, and essentially white knighting the issue when it's like, we serve the standing rock sue, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And so with that, it ended up, like the whole organization ended up collapsing because I couldn't even get people to kind of focus on actually serving communities.

They just wanted to figure out how they were gonna get a bigger platform and how they were gonna be able to, like, who could go do media? Like, they wanted to be the ones who do media. I would give them a chance and obviously they fall on their face because they couldn't do the media or something like that. They didn't wanna do the work that was necessary

for the people. They wanted to do the work that was necessary for them. And I started to realize that that was not just true of the standing rock movement, that ended up being true of pretty much every single major face you've ever seen when it comes to Black Lives Matter or environmental issues or anything like that.

That none of this shit has been about serving the community and they will attack me because I serve the community. Not now. Well speaking of Black Lives Matter, I'd love to ask your opinion, when you see something happen, like with Kaepernick and that whole deal and then people burning their Nike's, what do you see when you see all that? Do you think that is a capitalism wins again?

Explain that. Yeah, I mean, so Nike's job is to make money. College job is to make money. They succeed it off of black exploitation. To me, those are the neoliberals that Malcolm X warned us about. I'm not a follower of King. I'm certainly a follower more of X's mentality that we can sit there and say that it's black and it's this and it's Democrats Republican.

I don't think it's authoritarian versus liberal. It's about making everybody work together and detecting these things when essentially, a lot of the tropes about the left I found to be completely true, that they weren't trying to fix these issues, they were trying to be the one who controlled what the answers are. So it's the typical thing that you would see, you say there's a poor community, people wanna help,

so they go, I know what they need. Right. They need this, this and this. Right. Vote for me. Yeah, and I could not go into a place anywhere in this country successfully and ask any leader to ask what their people want it. You know, it's a good example of that. Are you, do you know the history of minimum wage laws?

So minimum wage laws originally were passed to prevent black laborers from taking the work from white laborers. So the white laborers saw that the black laborers were taking their jobs and charging less. So they passed laws, minimum wage laws, making it illegal to charge less than a certain amount. And because the black laborers now had to charge more,

the white laborers got the work. And people don't know that, they don't know the history of a lot of these things, but now, minimum wage, increasing minimum wage is now purported to, we're trying to help you, we're trying to help people, and we're gonna reality they had such a bad history. So it's crazy, it's power,

what do they say power corrupts, right? Yeah, and intent versus outcome. Very, very big deal. We do that a lot, where the's a power corrupt, right? Yeah, and in intent versus outcome. Very, very big deal. We do that a lot. Look at the law we just passed in California. Did you see that? Oh, yeah. So we're not going to get into net neutrality.

No. I will definitely back against that. Net neutrality, just for my two cents in this and my understanding, is essentially what the Democrats are trying to do now with the net neutrality law is make it so that we can eventually make this a government controlled thing. Correct. A slow pathway to that. I didn't think I'd agree with you so much.

I know. It's so weird. That's great. And so my big problem is, is here is what the old system was. Everyone was equal. Except everyone isn't equal. Equal is a huge problem in our, my biggest enemy to any kind of reform. What we are looking for, and the right will demonize this word because as they do postmodernism, and I'm pretty confident that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harrison, all these guys have no fucking

clue what postmodernism even means. Where's I going? Is that neutrality? Oh yeah, equality. And they'll slam the word equality too. So the reason we want equality is the quality is the checks and balancing force. So when somebody gets too weak, they're given more power.

When somebody is getting too powerful, they're stepped down. And so what neutrality was doing, it's a bit of a sidetrack, but what that was doing is making everyone equal. And so that meant Netflix paid as much money as you to send out their content. Fuck you. So what this was is this is a subscription service. So what old net neutrality essentially is is a subscription service where every single person is treated individually, including Netflix and YouTube. But the problem is, is like 90% of internet traffic

is Netflix, YouTube, and porn. So what that means is every single person who is paying a cable bill is subsidizing Netflix porn. And I mean, we can all agree to subsidize porn. Yeah, yeah, of course. Okay, so we're moving on. So they're subsidizing Netflix. Fundamental.

Yeah. There's something, it probably makes sense. There is what we can all agree on. Make the world a safer problem. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, get the energy out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That demons.

What about the law that just, just went in California? Oh, yeah, they said it's, and now I'm sure it'll get challenged, but the law is that every publicly traded business or company in California of a certain size, and I remember what it was, must have at least one woman on the board. So they made a law and now you have to have a woman, regardless of, you know, anything else. So remember women on the board is an outcome from a good company. Now, if you force the woman onto the board, that's an entirely different paradigm. Right, right, right. I think the market, I think when we allow things to be free

within a certain degree, I think the market is a really fucking good job of doing that. When you talk about the internet, for example, if you're gonna push out a shit ton of information through the internet, then you just pay more. And that's a market signal more, you know, supply and demand, right? And I think it does a very good job of that. If you want to know what your worth is monetarily in a market, then you'll know right away, okay, my skills include flipping hamburgers, looks like my worth, my monetary worth is this much.

Oh, wait, my skills are, you know, I'm a brilliant computer programmer or whatever, looks like my skills are worth this much. The market tends to tell us that, I don't think people like to face some of those facts, you know? Or that they even get them. We're blinded to them.

I mean, essentially, we know that people don't read past the headlines. I did one article that was advocating for banning the NFL. And the identical articles, they're both long reads, so you know, people don't read anything. It takes 20 minutes to read. It's like a 21 minute article. I wrote one title as something like USMC veterans call for an NFL band. And then the other article I titled the NFL is not racist.

And they're the exact same article. Oh wow. Just a great test. Oh wow. What a great, what was the outcome of this? It was shared about equally the same with about the equal amount of reads and about the equal amount of people bitching to me about the wrongness of each of them. I got one of social experiments.

I've ever done, I'll show you the medium stats. It's pretty funny. They're just pretty much equal. And I shared them, like from the same start point and just let them take their natural pathways through. And so the whole thing was, is that nobody, she fucking read it. You know? Did you do that with that nobody, she fucking read it, you know. So, just because of the headline. Did you do that with that intention?

Like put it out to the table. No, I hope people would read it. It was really good. So the article all came, I was supposed to do a video and that was doing all this on TYT. And then I had my whole, my whole falling out with TYT. And so the, all that work was just sitting there and I was like, well, I better just make a good article

out of all this work that's sitting there that was script. So ended up just putting that out, not wasting it, because it has good points, good science. All backed up, the main case is that they're still operate under a slavery system, they've hidden things in the past, and majorly, it goes about the CT issue as my main point, and it's false patriotism. So those two things, I have a huge problem in the

NFL with, you know, covering up the injuries that's done to the players. Hey, bro, don't ruin my fucking Sundays. I'm not fucking ruin my Sundays. But they give face it. Like one of my favorite things to do with me. No tackling. No tackling. Well, you know, we can't tackle. Things like taking the helmets off. Yes. Yeah, that's true. I'm dressing that issue. Make everybody safer. It's a battery. Isn't that funny? Yeah I'm dressing that issue. Make everybody safe. It's a battery. Isn't that funny? Yeah. So all those kind of things, I just want to work towards it, or even if you compensate in different ways,

or you actually want to study it and take it, I think if everyone wants to go smashed or brain in, oh, fuck it, you have every bit of right to do that. It's your brain. We're still Americans, that's real. I played all the way through high school. I loved it. I was a huge fan. And I just stopped watching like two years ago because of those things.

Like I just, my whole point is I realized that like the military became this, essentially the same thing as policing. It's enacting this violent rule over other people in the entire world. At the risk of the oppressed classes getting killed, you know, princess don't fight the war we do. And when I kept seeing that, like seeing the NFL like throw

all of these flags and praise people and like trying to do recruitment shit, I'm like, you're essentially trying to get like my fucking 15 year old, little nephew to go die for fucking oil problem. No, like I can't, you know, like you can fix these things. You don't have to do this bullshit. They're advertised. They're paid to do that. So that means just an advertisement for me.

See NFL could just say, we're not gonna glorify violence anymore, other unless it's ours in this format that's voluntary. Right. Yeah, and I think people, you know, here's the other thing too, we wanna consider, we have a lot more power than we think. Like, if everybody stopped watching, it would go away, right?

If everybody stopped buying a particular product, it would go away. If you don't wanna see Kim Kardashian on every tabloid and you think it's stupid, well, there's a reason why she's there is because we keep buying those damn magazines. So we have a lot more power than we're at. That's right. I think we're going.

I think we're getting, you mentioned earlier though, like two years ago you were optimistic, which I guess you're implying that you're a little more pessimistic or realist now, because the more I think we dive into it and look into it, there's things that scare me like with the social media now. I mean, it's becoming even more biased, so it's going to be easier to separate and send a message to like, can we reverse ourselves out of the direction we're going or is it?

Remember how stupid we are. We should always don't forget. Remember that. I can't remember. Right. So there's this thing called the prevalence effect. And that's the least something occurs the more we see it. So one of the good examples that they have of this is a test. It's a good one. Where there's, they're having people look at these different dots and see whether they're green or not.

And so as they reduce the amount of dots that are actually green, then the people expand their definition of what green is and still end up counting the same amount. So we can see when we do this with cars, you buy a yellow car, then suddenly you see yellow cars everywhere, you never saw them before. Yeah, I mean, they're rare, but now you're aware of its rarity. And once you're aware of it subconsciously, then you start to see it more. So I'm afraid that this occurs with like,

the media, this will occur with police brutality issues that even as we reduce the amount of issues, then people will still end up seeing them as occurring more, which isn't, was just steering us away from reality. Yeah, that's a good point because the very reason why certain things are so, you know, shocking and enraging to us and we share them on social media is because they don't happen that often. I mean, if people were getting murdered outside your door all the time or kids were getting kidnapped,

left and right, then one kidnapping in Minnesota wouldn't make the news and people wouldn't share it. Which is why it didn't affect me as much when I left work. I mean, I would be around that trauma all day long. So eventually a decade into it, you know, you can mop up somebody's dead body and you just fucking move on. Yeah. Yeah.

What do you do now for work? Is it your books or your writing? How are you supporting yourself? I know you're retired police officer. You had an injury. I think it was. That's it. That's all I have is my retirement for missing. Okay. What is your purpose now just doing this kind of stuff? I don't know. I mean, I really don't know what my purpose is. I'm trying to get as much down as I can. I'm in the middle of a research right now. So I'm just I'm doing my dissertation study.

So you're researching right now. It is the of a research right now. So I'm just, I'm doing my dissertation study. So you're researching. Right now it is the disconnect be to essentially. So what we know is that people go into police academies with a certain level of morality. And then they get all these classes. And these classes and this curriculum, we know increases people's morality and sense of ethics. But in policing, they graduate the academy

with a lower sense of ethics and morality than they went in. So we're actually corrupting them before they even hit the streets. And so- Just try to figure out why? Yeah, and so this isn't, I mean, essentially, I mean, I know why, but science doesn't work that way. Okay.

So what's your opinion? Why do you think that is? Well, we're find out once the study has done, but so my current opinion would be that because our culture overwhelms the information. So the bullshit anecdotes that we say to one another and some of the videos they show inducing fear make that overwhelm everything else they were doing.

So I think there's courses still work and then I think there's other influences that just wipe out their gains. But the reason this isn't in any literature is because the only way to know this is to talk to police commanders and nobody has access to them and I was able to get access to them because who I am. So that enabled that science to get in. So once that's done, we'll have that and then I can really free up my time I want to like go over these books be self-critical try to put as much writing and documentation out as I can While I mean while trying to find something I put in for like 500 jobs. I'll never I don't think I'll ever get a job What are your thoughts on religion? I'm a complete atheist. So but my my general saying, I'm an atheist doing my best Jesus.

I don't have, hey, that sounds pretty good. That's interesting. You should explain that now. That's actually really cool, but you should explain what you mean by that. I certainly think the vast majority of lessons that Jesus' character was giving us, and I certainly don't believe that person ever even existed. Uh, is that those basic principles of loving one another, I mean, where would Jesus be? He would be with the horrors and the crackheads and the heroin addicts in the city. But I don't see a lot of Christians down there doing that shit.

So if our goal, my goal is not, even if I believe in that shit, I would not want to be a Christian. I would want to be like a Jesus in or something. You know, like, you, know, like, the whole organization. So any idea with religion, my buddy Roberto Alejandro just wrote a really excellent book on this topic about how the fundamental underpinnings of religion have led to a lot of things. It's not public yet. It's like, I can't even talk about it much. But how the underpinnings of religion have fueled these ideas that lead to ultimate othering.

So as soon as you have a religion like Christianity, you are automatically saying that what your world view is more rational and right than everyone else's. And that immediate othering makes it so that you can do things to others. So John Locke, his influences as a Christian on the American foundation, was that he led to the justification of slavery from a Christian mindset, because what happened was he believed and passed down to our forefathers that the people who were rational and Christian

were one thing, and then everybody else was less than human if he weren't rational and fell into that. Now there were Christians to, to be fair, that fought for the ending of slavery and they did use the, you know, all, you know, we've all been created in God's image. It's also what's been believed to have fueled

or created the concept of, you know, the individual and individual liberties. You know, much of that is anchored in the Judeo-Christian roots. But I think a lot of it has to do with just how people like to use shit. You know, you can mold it. So all of these are tools for othering. And I need to, ultimately, I don't think I can get ahead in any of these discussions without tearing down those walls of othering.

And so the reason we, why, Colonial Civilization justified the taking of the lands from America, for instance, from the Native Americans, was because since they were not Christian, they were less than human. Therefore, they couldn't own the land, because all Christians have divine right over the land in its animals. So, the any tool that enables you to make someone else your enemy is going to do it. It's necessarily going to happen. So I say the use of the term race, for instance, any social construct imposes that you will have those biases and prejudices in. So even going genders, I argue completely, genders are fluid. The idea that we say man and woman is just a generalization that kind of gets you into the ballpark of where we are.

We all are complete individuals. You have femininity, you have masculinity, overlaying all these other things. Sex is the level, you know, for instance, I'm not gay. So I don't care how attractive Blair White is. I can't do it, man. There's a dick there. Right. Right. And I don't care how much I like that really butch kind of beard dyke up in Oregon. Can't do it man.

Ain't gonna happen, but if I had to choose, I'm going with the actual female. You know, like so, you know, all those things are these spectrums of who, so if you were to say, I'm a man, would that make you, would you be able to understand why I wouldn't have sex with someone as beautiful as Blair White if I had to, but would lump some lumberjack female from it?

No, it doesn't classify any of that. So we're all these individuals that you're saying, and those groups deny that. Right, so do you believe in like relative morality, or are you more in like relative morality or are you more of an objective morality? Definitely would probably be more relativist. I don't know where anything would be objectively moral.

Yeah, well here's a thing that with that is that relativism can be a very slippery slope. People can start to justify all kinds of things, you know, you have, you know. In aally though. Well, society is about what all of us have agreed upon. People will always violate that. We need to care more about what our society does, not what individuals do, because society is providing the experiences that will

change those individuals throughout time. Yeah, but in society, just a collective collective of individuals. No, no. A collection of different people. change those individuals throughout time. Yeah, maybe in society, just a collective of individuals. No, no. A collection of different people. If we all ruled right now together, if the country voted whether their children should go to jail for a flower in their pocket,

they would all say, no. But what's the reality of our society? Right, right. The elites control our society. Right, no, I agree with that. So we must change policy all the time. Never worry about these individuals. Every individuals are always in the right,

like if you worry about the source of this information coming from me, you'll miss the point entirely. The all of that must stand outside. Just mindfully. See, I think if everybody had the objective morality to respect individual liberties, like, okay, you own your body, you own yourself. As long as you don't hurt other people,

and as long as you don't steal from other people or damage property or other people's stuff, then do whatever you want. So if we all agree upon that, that is a foundational objective morality that if everybody agreed upon, then you could literally live however you want it so long as you didn't hurt anybody or steal from anybody.

So if you wanna do something to your body, you wanna have sex with whoever you want, you wanna take drugs, whatever, as long as you don't hurt anybody or steal from anybody, it's totally cool. And I think that that's a very good foundation object of morality. If people could all agree on that,

then you could kinda live however you want it Just don't hurt anybody and don't take from it. Does that mean that you couldn't have the labels though. So that's my argument. Oh right Yes, yes, yeah, I understand what you're saying with the labels definitely. I'm just saying that with with You have to have some kind of foundational objective You know, you have to have the rules of the game otherwise the game can't be played This would this would require getting rid of all religion, though. This is not... Do you think that's even possible?

Over time, I would say it's essentially inevitable, but the... I would steer... Religion is just an ideology, so it would be any of those ideologies. We're just replaced them with something. So it's like an addict replaces the heroin with Christianity that happens all the time. So the focus then should be on the addiction, not on what the thing is. So we shouldn't have any groups that other, whether it's religion or any ideology, where we can do an ism, it necessitates that we will view the others as less worthy than us. It's us essentially making the broad pock animation and that that thing is better.

So if it's socially constructed, we should try to do everything we can to avoid it. Now, if it's biology and it's facts, well, there's nothing you can do about that. Our males and females, different, absolutely, are men and women different. That's genders. I mean, I don't know, what does that mean?

It's just the role that somebody's playing. Yeah, I mean, the current research does show that genders. I mean, I don't know, what does that mean? It's just the role that somebody's playing. Yeah, I mean, the current research does show that genders very, very strongly connected a correlated, I should say, to your sex. What has to be though? Yeah, yeah. Because that's what everyone is telling you. It is very interesting.

So they're telling you to choose boy or girl. But if that was never a concept, you see, that's the thing we forget. So Native Americans race was never a concept to them. that's the thing we forget. So Native Americans, race was never a concept to them. Right. So, and there are places in this country now, you could go try to talk about, in this world, you could go talk about race, and people had no idea what the fuck you're talking about, because it's not objectively real.

It's not something that will be present. Sure, sure. And what I find fascinating too is when someone does, if it is a man that does identify as the female gender, they typically will go in the extreme feminine of that female gender. You almost never see that. Well, that's what we notice. I mean, I don't know, dude, I've had some,

like, I've had some dudes that were a little sketchy when they came to my cow, they were approaching me and they look like normal dudes to me. So, do the people that are extremely feminine, do, are they just correlate it with more confidence to express their gainess. That's a very good point and interesting one, definitely. Well, yeah, this is, this one all over the place,

but it was a lot different than I thought it was. Yeah, it's totally wet now. I'm sure. I never bathed, we had these things planned out and everything you even talk about, but what's the point of that? It's less authentic. Very cool.

So you're currently studying, are you going to university for this or is this all on your own? No, no, no, so I'm wrapping up my PhD now, and that's what the dissertation studies for. So once that's finished, then that'll be my piece that I can finally say, I'm done with school. I contemplated an Arizona state has a law degree scholarship. I'm pretty sure I could qualify for. So I contemplated doing that and then trying to be like a public defender

to try and just make a change on some level that I could. I think that'll probably distract me too much. I think I should continue to focus in getting the ideas refined out so that other people can have tools for their discussions. I think I need to get things into more avenues So I can write articles and I can I can talk about these I need stuff in published literature

And I need to just work on getting the information out more and I don't necessarily know what that is To a certain extent I'm certainly lost at the moment. Are you are you getting any I would think you got to be getting some support from cops Right, you're not oh no there's always has been cops, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no pathway for them to be good. So we often say, I put out a tweet, Instagram post the other day, they got people route up, but that gets tired of hearing it. If people say we're all the good cops, you just told them all to fuck off.

You know, you don't provide a pathway for them to speak. All whistleblowers have their careers destroyed. Any whistleblower that's had a successful career go. Yeah, right. It doesn't happen. So the same thing with being in me,ower that's had a successful career go. Yeah. Right. It doesn't happen. So the same thing with being at me, and that's like, I realized, I check all the boxes, and I did this when I was a young sergeant too. I realized, part of our medical system, so the way officers get paid in the ballroom or

police department, if you get injured with less than five years on, you end up getting like totally screwed. And there was this guy, Keith Romance, who got shot, and bulletin' his neck, and big gun battle, hero like thing, like save these other people, like was fighting with blood pouring out of his neck. He was holding his neck, like still engaged in the fight, saving everybody.

He was like these moments where you're like, damn, this dude, but they put him in one of those situations. It wasn't a patrol officer. They put him hunting down people. He only had two years on. And at the end of the day, his pension ended up being $12,000 a year. Yeah, it's terrible. And he's got a bullet in the neck versus life and can't get a job. And it's like those

kind of things when I see them, like I couldn't tell my officers, I said, how the fuck can I tell anybody with under five years on to go out there and risk your life so the city will fuck you over like that. There's no way I could do that and I kind of feel a bit like that today. I can't tell cops to go out there and say something. I'm telling you to give away your pension, everything you fucking work for

and the people that you stand up for are guaranteed to fucking cut you down as soon as you're done with you. So don't you feel like almost all of our systems are like this though? I mean the school systems, I mean, like what system isn't fucked up like this? Yeah, I mean, you're right. And medical system, I mean, name it, actually, name me a system that we can't sit right now and just tear apart the same way though, right?

I'll go best I can go with is public health, but they're super under. Oh no, we'll argue that one. But they have no money. We'll still argue that one. That's information. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's true, that's true. I don't know, I can't think of anything,

but we can continue to improve them. I think if we ever were to say we had an answer, then we're complete fools. It's, we're only doing like the thing we think is best for the current conditions. I have a problem with even relying on the past. People say, well, this happened 200 years ago. When motherfuckers couldn't find a way home, what do you mean?

An entirely different idea, where if you got dropped off in Boise, Idaho, you certainly might not find Like your way back the civilization, you know, like I don't want to go back fucking a year Yeah, what do you mean like go back in time? But they want to go back in time for information and even if it was right and if it worked It was only right and only worked then under those conditions at that time I mean just like any discussion in America

is dramatically different now than it was two and a half years ago, dramatically. So if I was right about what I did a year or two years ago and kept doing it, and it doesn't work now, it doesn't mean I was wrong then, it doesn't mean I should do it now. Like it's always about the best thing that we think going forward.

Constantly refined. Yeah, constantly refining. The thing that we think going forward. Constantly refined. Yeah, constantly refining. The idea that we ever get there is just fucking us. A really weird human arrogance. Do you think that technology will help us to... I don't know. I kept wanting to say that. And now I don't know if technology helps or not.

I feel like when I get away from technology and I just hang out with people that the problems that you think or problems aren't there. And it's like, I think a lot of, right-wing black guys do this. Where they're like, I don't know, man. Like I hang out around a lot of white, white motherfuckers and they don't care. And I felt like that too when I kept going to go around.

It was like, well, one thing I didn I had an easy way to think of this. If you can think of like some typically ultra white guys, who's never seen black people his whole life, has those old racist ideologies that got passed down and blah, blah, blah. Do you think he wants to date Ben Carson? His daughter to date Ben's Carson's daughter and have that guy around every day,

or son of a round, or me. They're not gonna have me around. I promise. And if they pick me in a catalog, they'd be like, this guy, right here. But as soon as they met me, they'd be like, get down, motherfucker outta here. Oh, that shit that I would be saying,

I'd be shitting on the religion to get my daughter shot. Some white people aren't a real thing either. Like when I see blacks on me, I mean, your white isn't real either. Like none of this shit is real. Policing doesn't work. Like they don't want somebody like that around

what they want is somebody in their own culture that they're familiar with. And that's why homicides happen that way. Like you were pointing to before. Almost all crime is enter of what you're familiar with. So even the idea, like most people think that you could go down the bottom or make, oh, it's dangerous.

No, it's actually not. Even statistically, if you're not involved in the game, your odds of getting shot in bottom or are the same as anywhere else in the entire country. Statistically, your odds of getting shot walking through some cornfield are the exact same as they are walking through West bottom or. If you're not in the game, those people don't know you,

like crime is not among strangers. So you're saying that's controlled. So if we go in and I'm not a part of the game and I walk through the streets of Baltimore, the odds that I'm gonna get shot are the same as walking anywhere else when you control Wow. Yeah, that's an interesting one. And really interesting.

Also when you account for human interactions. So they'll do things like, oh, there's no crime, or there's no violence in this area that's nothing but cornfields in Kansas. They've only had one homicide in this county for 15 years. It's like, yeah, and your people talk to one another twice a day. But when you're in a big city,

then you're interacting with people constantly, constantly, constantly, so that's what makes New York even vastly more impressive is that not only do they have this success by eliminating lead, they have interactions left and right, and they have social inequality, and they have policing, and they have local instability still. That's how strong lead poisoning is. Wow. You were saying you were you were feeling lost. Do you think what you've done publicly

is gonna help or hurt you in the future in terms of, what you may wanna do? I don't really have a want. Any activist, and I believe I am, I guess I have to take the title of being some but of an activist for police reform. So any activist's primary goal should be the elimination of their purpose.

So my entire goal is that nobody ever talks to me again. I can go live a retirement, I can no more fucking person and not have to deal with these issues because they've been taken seriously and other people are working on them. So my idea of success is that nobody hears my name ever again. I think that should be the case with anyone. That's why you cannot trust a Duremi Kesson,

a Sean King, a Al Sharpton. You can't trust any of these people. There are livelihoods and all their incentives are based upon the continuation of these things. Agreed. Interesting. So how tell us, I kind of glazed over it early on and I referenced the wire. How much of that is true?

How close to reality is that? The wire? Yes. I mean, it's close. I mean, it's as close to as accurate as you can possibly do. Really. Yeah, so I would argue that it is the most accurate TV shows probably ever been made.

Wow. So to capture my big problem with the wire is it will capture, like, I don't know if everybody knows, but Carcadie's Martin O'Malley, if anybody didn't know that. That's it. All those characters in the wire are actually real characters in Baltimore. They're all based off of real people. I don't know if everybody knows, but Carcadde's Martin O'Malley, if anybody didn't know that. All those characters in the wire actually real characters in Baltimore. They're all based off of real people, so when you're from there, you know who they all are, you know all these stories even, like, you can predict what was going to happen.

You knew these stories. Oh, wow. And so, that whole thing, my problem with it is, it's accurate, but it's such a narrow window of what Baltimore is. And it's part of that narrow window that clouded my mind as well. It took me along to, I mean, I was well into being a major case narcotics detective before I developed, I guess, the confidence or familiarity

like we were talking about again, to walk through the hood unarmed and with regular clothes on and things like that. You have to kind of take that down. And once I took that down, it was like, oh shit, I'm not really anywhere different. Drug dealers aren't pushing drugs on you. They stand on the corner, and if you walk past someone

to the people that want them. They sell them to everybody once and you walk past, you want something, like, I'm good. And they're like, all right, bro, have a good day. Nothing weird happens about that. The only one I'm like, I'm good. And they're like, all right bro, have a good day. Nothing weird happens about that. The only one I remember one time I saw a drug dealer who came up to me, like thinking, oh, this dude's a buyer.

It came up, he's like, no. Turn around and walk the other way. Yeah, you're a cop. But it was like ladies, grandma sweeping out their porches and talking to the neighbors. Like those are the things I started to see when I kind of took down my Prejudice and biases in those areas and that's not captured there. I mean the school season captures that somewhat but Well fascinating conversation man. Yeah, yeah, very different than what I expected for sure

Thanks for finding me back out here and thanks for like I was supposed to be here a week ago out here and thanks for like I was supposed to be here a week ago. Oh, shit. Do you know that? Yes, I do. That was totally my fault. I went, I did something cool though, which when you talk about things happening, I ended up, I had to go to LA that day and I just got my wires crossed. So I apologize for that.

What did you do? That was the point. Yeah. So I went with, I guess I could say it was a CNN. I don't know, I'm not allowed to talk, but they approached me, CNN of all people, international, with a fairly good idea on a TV show, talking about police reform and the angle to get to it that people will care.

I think they have a good idea. It was the first time I was like, guys, you guys actually have a good idea. Oh, wow. So I had to go out there to do the promo reel that they'll use to send to their ball pitches. Oh, good for you, man. So hopefully that would work.

I think the promo real, like I can show you guys like that if I shoot something. Yeah, I would love to look at that before you leave. That I'd be interesting to see like if they unfold the story the same way you have the experience of shooting it. Exactly. Well, yeah, we'll see what they do. They they seem pretty trustworthy.

They're real professional and kind of how their shit all lined up. I was impressed and they were coming up with good ideas and I don't miss the irony of CNN doing that. But I was thinking in all reality though, I mean, if you think about it, it's CNN and international. And next, this is the last season of somebody show. And so there is a time slot next year that was the fourth day in the channel.

I see. I just say it, you know, there is a time slot available. Next season. All right. Well, good deal, man. Yeah, yeah, we're coming on. Thank you guys. We're just great talking to you.

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