Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 895: Do Transgender Athletes have an Unfair Advantage?

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. A while ago, we did an episode, and in the beginning of the episode, we talked about, there was a transgender athlete that won a weightlifting competition. And the conversation between us was that we think that, it's not fair. It's not fair that there's a competitive advantage

Starting point is 00:00:30 in many cases. And so that was our opinion in that episode went out. And then I got contacted by the out foundation. And the conversation was that, they think that we're misinformed that they would like to have a discussion with us. And I thought it would be a brilliant episode. Like let's do an episode on this, let's talk about this.

Starting point is 00:00:50 And by the way, the out foundation is a great, from what I see online, a great organization. They're trying to bring fitness and wellness access to the LGBT community. And I think that's a good thing for anybody. But anyway, they introduced us to transgender athletes, Chloe Johnson and Bennett Casper. Chloe, in fact, had a huge lawsuit with CrossFit.

Starting point is 00:01:15 So a lot of people might know who she is. We got into that a little bit. And so the conversation, we talked about that. Is there an unfair advantage? And I think we still disagree on that. However, it got a lot deeper. We went into a lot of different things in terms of what it means to be transgender,

Starting point is 00:01:31 what it's like to transition, the politics around it. I was a really good conversation. Yeah, I was just nice to have an open discussion and like obviously we had questions that were different than just the sports angle. We wanted to know more about what it is and what your daily life looks like being transgender. So we covered a lot of topics in this episode. Yeah, it was a good conversation.

Starting point is 00:01:55 No, I think it was very informative. I think that, man, I had a couple things that Ben and it said I was completely floored, but I had no idea that there's you know close to 1.5 million transgenders that we know about. That's a much larger number than I was aware of. So and I love, you know, I love when I don't know when someone schools me on something. And so I feel like, you know, and Ben and it's a, got a, got a, a law, a law degree and background. And so a great person to have a conversation like this. I think when they first came in, they were a bit apprehensive because they weren't sure.

Starting point is 00:02:31 With angle, we would have a lot of questions. What are intentions were? And I think at the end of the day, my pump is all about talking about these types of conversations that most people are scared to have. And I think you get situations where the only podcast that would put something out like that is a podcast is like an echo chamber that is pro one way or the other way for a lot of the topics that we discuss.

Starting point is 00:02:54 And we like to go into our, out of our comfort zone and have conversations like this one today. And I think for the most part, think it was really really really good. It was at the end of the day all of us are the same we all the three of us or four of us including Doug. If somebody's cool we're gonna be cool with the cool. Yeah I don't really care you know male female you know non-binary whatever you know it doesn't matter if you're a cool person, you're a cool person. And at one point, we got into that conversation where Bennett talked about how white men and white privilege, and I said, look, I said, we can only look at the individual. And that's the argument you have to make because it's going to benefit everybody, especially

Starting point is 00:03:38 your community. Because if people can just judge you on being an individual and your character and how you treat people, then you're gonna fucking win people over. You're gonna win this whole, whatever debate or that's happening in the country. But if we keep putting people in these groups and assign them these general ideas of how people should be

Starting point is 00:03:57 or whatever, or how they are, yeah, we'll never move ahead. We have to look at people as individuals and we're always in support of that. Again, at the end of the day, the question of whether or not there's a competitive advantage, like I firmly believe that they're in many cases, there is a competitive advantage. However, these organizations are private. They're fully, fully within their rights, the sanction, and make the regulations a law, as however they want. And you know what, Ben and Chloe made a very good point. It's so early we won't know what those parameters should be and what's considered in advantage because like Chloe for example transitioned when she was 15 years old. Well,

Starting point is 00:04:38 she's probably not going to have an advantage, but somebody who transitions from male to female at the age of 25 may because they've gone all the way through puberty and had, but that's a good conversation. Where should you draw the line and what does that look like? And they're right. We don't know a whole lot. Yeah, it's kind of new. So it's a really, really good conversation.

Starting point is 00:04:57 I really enjoyed it. They're really cool people. We're all supportive of what the out foundation is doing, so that was awesome. Now you can find Chloe and Bennett on Instagram if you want to follow them. Chloe's at at, Clow, Johnson, that's CHLO, J-O-N, SS-O-N, and Bennett is at mx.casper with a K. Then the out foundation is the out foundation.org and then if you want to donate to this organization to support what they're doing go to the out foundation.org forward slash donate dash one. I also do want to mention this month all month long we re-released maps anywhere. This is

Starting point is 00:05:43 our maps program that is essentially equipment free. So, as a workout program, you can do anywhere. All you need are maybe some bands and your body. It's good for beginners. It's good for advanced. It allows you to scale up your intensity to get your body respond. It's extremely effective. And we re-released the program because we re-did all the blueprints and videos.

Starting point is 00:06:04 It looks beautiful and brand new. In fact, those of you that already own Maps anywhere, check your library now. It's already been updated. And for those of you that don't have it, it's 50% off. So we cut the price in half all month long. All you got to do is go to mapswhite.com and use the code white50whit and the number 50 without any space for the discount. And I guess that's it.

Starting point is 00:06:28 So without any further ado, here we are talking to Chloe and Bennett. Joy. I really want to thank you both for coming on the show. This all started because we did, we do our show and at the beginning of our show we do what's called our intro and that's where we just talk. We just have a good conversation. And the topic came up and I can't remember who it was. I think it was in New Zealand.

Starting point is 00:06:49 It was a transgender athlete who won, so broke some records in competition. And so the discussion was, is it fair? Is it fair? And so we have our opinion and I'm pretty sure you're both clear that we think that there's a competitive advantage. And so we talked about it and I got contacted by somebody from the out foundation. I wasn't familiar with this organization by the way,

Starting point is 00:07:16 which I looked into them, they're phenomenal. Their goal is to promote health, fitness, and wellness to the LGBT community and help people have access to fitness. And I think that's phenomenal. And so we got on this email thread and the individual I was talking to said that we didn't have all the information and that our opinion was wrong. And I basically said, we're very, very open to talking about this. In fact, we love having our minds changed

Starting point is 00:07:47 completely. And so that's how we all got connected. And so I appreciate you guys both coming on the show and, you know, being able to talk about this. But before we get into that topic, I want to know a little bit more about the two of you. Now, I know a little bit more about you, Chloe, mainly because I heard about you through your lawsuit a while ago with CrossFit. And this is before CrossFit changed their rules. What was that, how did that all happen? What was that all about?

Starting point is 00:08:14 I'm really bad with dates. I did quite a few drugs for a while back in my youth. So I think it was about 2014, 2013, 14. I just wanted to do the open. Okay. And we contacted CrossFit anonymously just to see like what the regulations were because I've never had any legal paperwork or documentation past the age of 16 that didn't say I was anybody but who I am now. So I just wanted to make sure that I had all my eyes dotted in tees crossed and so on and so forth. And then they basically the short of it told me that I couldn't compete unless I competed as a man. Now you said 16 since you were 16. Does that mean, at 16 is when you made your transition

Starting point is 00:09:05 and that's what your paperwork shows? Or... I transitioned when I was 15 and then everything changed over when I was 16. Oh wow, so you went through the whole process of all that. Do you mind if I ask what that was like? And because I don't know, I have, I had two clients,

Starting point is 00:09:21 I used to own a wellness facility, we were talking about this earlier because you grew up in the town that I owned my business. And I had a client, or one of my trainers had a client who was with a man who then transitioned, they stayed together, and then they used to come work out. And every once in a while, it asked questions, it was very curious, I didn't know anybody who'd done that.

Starting point is 00:09:38 So I still don't know a whole lot of what that process was like. So you were young, you were 15 years old. What must have been, was that process was like. So you were young, you were 15 years old. What must have been, what was that like and that whole process? Was that a difficult thing? How about it? How about it? How about explaining the process?

Starting point is 00:09:52 I don't even know the steps that you have to go through, how long that takes. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit different now, but back then, 25 years ago, you had to. It must have been much harder. Yeah, I mean, it just wasn't talked about. I mean, we've been around forever, but we transgender people. But I ended up changing high schools for multiple reasons.

Starting point is 00:10:15 I ended up transitioning. You had to do what they called the real-life test, so that was dressed as your preferred gender for a year before they assessed you to approve you for hormones. Oh I see. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. How do they measure that? I mean how does that work? They just say therapy. Oh okay. So you do it for your and you go. So you you lived as the gender you preferred and you did therapy and talked to your doctor people and luckily

Starting point is 00:10:53 luckily that's not the standard anymore for a trans person you no longer have to say to a therapist there's no test I'm trans and then you have to prove it that it used to be basically that you'd have to prove to a therapist who is not a trans person that you were trans enough to deserve their permission to pursue transition. This is like you're trying to close them and prove them that's what. I mean, you have to go to a therapist and convince them that you are who you say you are, even though they don't know who you are. No, we don't know what it's like to be a trans person. Was it common that someone would deny that?

Starting point is 00:11:18 Like a therapist would be like, oh no, she's not serious enough or he's not serious enough. Yeah, oh wow. This is what people don't get about being trans is that I'm gonna jump the shark and go straight into talking about competitive advantage. The steps that you have to go through in order to transition are insanely complicated and they take a long time and it's really hard on your body.

Starting point is 00:11:38 It's legally hard. It's expensive. It's a bureaucratic nightmare that anybody would go through that just to gain some sort of a competitive advantage and a sport is ridiculous. Well, you know where that idea, you know where that idea first came from. So I actually did a little bit of research on that. And the IOC started testing or saying you had to be, you know, how you were born to compete.

Starting point is 00:12:04 1968, I believe, is the first time they started talking about that, and this was because of fears over Soviet athletes, Soviet male athletes competing as women to win more medals. And now, to be clear, and this is good for the audience to understand, during that time we had the Cold War, and so there was a lot of fear and stuff, but that's where it kind of first started that idea

Starting point is 00:12:26 that somebody would do that for an advantage. Now to be fair, I- It's so crazy, right? And yet, well, it speaks to the cisgender person's assumption that a man in address is the same as a trans woman. So it speaks to the cisgender assumption that like, that a man putting on address to gain a competitive edge in a competition, he's doing that for his own sport for sporting reasons and for national pride. I imagine the Soviets were really wanted to stick it to the West and all of that. But in real like in

Starting point is 00:13:02 in real life nowadays, a man doesn't just put on a dress and go, I'm a woman now. That's not what it means to be a trans woman. And I think a lot of people assume that when we lift regulations on trans people entering competition or doing things like cis people, all these cisgender men are just going to start putting on dresses and calling themselves women in order to do better. And you guys are all cis men, right? Would any of you put on a dress, shave, wear a wig, go out dressed as a woman just to gain a competitive advantage for other cis men? I wouldn't, but I also think it's crazy.

Starting point is 00:13:36 I think it's crazy that, and they've done surveys on this where they talk to Olympic athletes and ask them, you know, if it meant that you were gonna die in five years, would you, to win the gold medal, would you? And like 80% of them say, yes, I think that's crazy. That doesn't say. Well, that speaks to a whole different level of issue, right? That's a person with a whole different problem. If you're, if you're calling yourself a trans person

Starting point is 00:14:00 and changing your gender identity and your body, just to be a better athlete than you don't deserve to win. That's like, that's like just head down. Yeah, not on the wrong side. I agree. And to be honest with you, I think even if there were people who would change their gender just to try and win an advantage or get an advantage to win, I think that percentage, if

Starting point is 00:14:22 it did exist, which I've seen no evidence of it, but let's say it did exist, that would be such a small percentage. It would be absolutely minuscule. So that's not really the conversation that I want to focus on because I don't really care about that because I think that's either not going to happen or if it does, it'll be the most rarest thing of all time. I think the conversation really is, is there an advantage? Is there an advantage for an athlete who, you know, transitions? And I believe the IOC regulations are, you have to be

Starting point is 00:14:54 the, you have to have transition at least for a year, at least your hormones have to measure a particular amount for a year if I'm not mistaken. That would it is. Yeah, they recently, they recently changed them. Okay. It used to be that you had to have, if you were trans woman, you had to have sex resignment surgery, and you also had to live a certain amount of time as your, your gender identity as a woman, and you have to have hormone levels under a certain amount for X amount of time. They've removed the surgery component right because that's no longer a legal requirement to transition in most places. So, if a state or a country doesn't require you to have reassignment

Starting point is 00:15:33 surgery to change your gender, then it's kind of ridiculous for sporting agency to require the same or sporting governance rather. So the surgery thing is off the table, but yes, they still have to have levels under a certain amount and things like that. And for people who do have surgery, your natal levels drop below what it would be for even cis women. So that's how I was gonna ask you.

Starting point is 00:15:58 Do you know what, I don't know what the levels are, like how does that work? So 10 nano, isn't it 10, what's the measurement that they use? It's 10 nanos per liter, right? And that's, and it is 10 nanos, and that's why, you say, that's the limit that they should reach. But now, this is for man who transitioned to women, and oftentimes, they will measure up at at that many times cisgender women will

Starting point is 00:16:26 measure around one or two. So there's always that argument. However, there are women who, and I can't remember what it's called, they have higher levels and natural testosterone. In fact, that's been a little bit of a debate for a while. And I do want to get into that whole thing, but I want to know more about you, Bennett, because what's your, you compete in, in, in what sporting events in particular?

Starting point is 00:16:49 So I'm a former college, or I played rugby pre-transition as a, as a female identified person. After college and I played club, I played softball growing up competitively and then started doing crossfit when I retired from rugby and I transitioned at the age of 30, about four years ago, five years ago now, and continued crossfit through my transition and still do crossfit. So you still compete in crossfit? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:21 Do you know since you're a child that this is something you want to do, I've never, I've read some, were people say I'm going, no, not cross. Both. I knew I wanted to do it. I was back there. Yeah. Cause you just did this at 30. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:36 So you, did you know for a super long time before or? No. And so that's, that's a really super miss, uh, that's a big misconception about what it means to be trans. In fact, the reason why it took me so long to transition was because I thought all trans people knew from a really young age that they were in the wrong body. And that's not, that hasn't been my experience.

Starting point is 00:17:59 And it took me a really long time to realize that I am a trans person despite the fact that that wasn't my story. And so I actually, although I am trans and I have transitioned physically, I identify more as a non-binary person, so I don't identify as a quote-unquote man and I don't identify as a woman, I identify as a transmasculine person who is somewhere in between. So for me, because I spent so much of my adult life living as a female, I had a whole professional career, I had a whole identity pre-transition. For me, I don't have the lived experience of what I feel like it makes what

Starting point is 00:18:41 makes somebody a man. So to speak, my lived experience is that of somebody who has experienced life on both sides of the gender binary. And so to me, I consider myself a non-binary person. Okay, what has it been like for you to live both sides of it? Like what do you, what are the pluses of minus of each? I would love to hear your opinion. Well, let me tell you, male privilege is a real thing. Oh, really? It is a real thing. Oh, really?

Starting point is 00:19:05 It is a real thing. It is 100% real. So the other day, I say the other day, this was like three years ago, it feels like the other day to me because I will never get over how shocked I am by it. When I first started to pass, which is a term we use in the community

Starting point is 00:19:20 when people on the street don't clock you as being trans. When you are able to pass successfully as the opposite gender assigned as, which is not everybody's goal by the way, not all trans people want to pass, and they're valid if they don't want to. But one of the first moments when I realized that I was passing was I got into an elevator,

Starting point is 00:19:40 and there were like four other men in my office building that were in the elevator. I didn't know. And a woman that I didn't know also walked in. She had a skirt on. She had heels on. She was dressed to go to work. She gets in the elevator and rides up like 30 floors, gets off. And as soon as she exits the elevator, one of the dudes in the elevator turns around and was said something about her like, man, I wouldn't kick her out of bed in those heels or something. Something really shitty and do she like that. And I looked around like first of all, my eyes get really big and I'm always like,

Starting point is 00:20:09 he clearly thinks that I'm on the same team that he's on. That was a really interesting experience. Now were you at first like, oh cool, like they think I was a homicide. No, no, no, no, I was horrified because I was like, does he, who the fuck does he think he's talking to like that? Like does he, and he was looking at me, I was like, does he, who the fuck does he think he's talking to like that?

Starting point is 00:20:25 Like does he, and he was looking at me, I was like, what about what I'm doing right now? Is giving him the impression that I'm okay with what he's saying and that I'm inviting this kind of conversation. Turns out it was nothing. Short lesson I learned is that cis men just do that kind of stuff all the time.

Starting point is 00:20:40 They feel like they can, like they have permission to. I don't give people permission to do that, but. Well, something about being a dude in the company of other dudes. You know, in this is, like, everybody experiences this. Guys, when they're around each other, talk to each other a particular way. Girls can also do the same thing. We are worse. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:00 I think we are worse. I was just going to say that's your, you know, perspective. Well, at least I am. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say that's really, I'm pretty sure I could have a clue. Well at least I am. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say Chloe, Chloe maybe is not. I mean, we quiet right now, but I don't really have a sense of showing you, I'm gonna say whatever I feel. Yeah, well, I mean, I think, you know,

Starting point is 00:21:16 when guys are around just guys, we talk a particular way. I think, and I think sometimes that's okay, sometimes it is, for example, assuming that you be okay with that, maybe not a smart thing, they don't know who you are, but they see a, you know, they see a dude. Yeah, I don't think that's a male privilege thing. I think they see a dude with a beard. I don't think that's a male privilege.

Starting point is 00:21:34 I think they're looking at a guy with a beard. I think that's a asshole. I think that's just an asshole. I think that's just an asshole that you're running a tune. I think there's bitches. We still feel kind of guys off, yeah. That comment was not necessarily an example of privilege. I will say that people give me the benefit of the doubt that I am right when I start speaking

Starting point is 00:21:52 from the get-go. You have a good looking beard. That's what it is. It must be the beard. I will tell you what, this beard is like a one-way ticket to success. I'm telling you, I get so much ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I get so much respect from people telling you I get so much. It's ridiculous. I get so much respect

Starting point is 00:22:05 from people just because I have a beard. And so for all of you cis-gender men that think that your beard gives you some magic powers, it doesn't. It turns out all it takes is 0.5ccs of testosterone once a week. It's not magic. It's just genetics and a little shot. Where did shit all over my beard? It's not that big of a deal. You're still missing the glasses. People always hit me up on social media.

Starting point is 00:22:25 They're like, how did you grow your beard? I'm like the same way you did, dude. I just don't cut it and it grows. That's what happened. How many milligrams of testosterone is that point C? Is that 100 milligrams or 50? It's 100 milligrams because I think it's 200 milligrams per CC.

Starting point is 00:22:40 Okay, 250, probably. That's usually what it is. Probably 250 and you're probably dead. That's a decent amount. Yeah, what's with the whole? Your your testosterone levels probably measure by higher than mine? Yeah, the upper range of I just the last time I got my labs done so if you were a trans person who's on you know hormone replacement therapy you should be getting regular lab work done by your

Starting point is 00:23:00 Physicians to make sure that your levels are state, good and healthy. And the last time I had my levels checked, I was in the like 75% range. So you're doing the upper range of what's considered healthier, which is higher than where... No, I'm low, right? It's different for every trans person though. So just like every sister, there's natural hormone levels that are the optimal level for that person. It's the same with trans guys. It's taken me a while to figure out what's ideal,

Starting point is 00:23:31 what works for me and what keeps. What have you noticed? This is a great, this is I'm so glad we're having this conversation. Have you noticed any changes in how you emotions think and feel due to the changes in your hormones for both of you? I remember now, I have a family member who had a testosterone sensitive type of cancer

Starting point is 00:23:52 and had to go on these hormone blocking drugs and he's not trans, he's just, you know, sister or whatever. But he was commenting about how different he was feeling and emotional and empathetic and, you know, all the stereotypical phenyl type traits, I thought that was so fast. And did you both notice changes in how you thought and felt about certain things as you started changing? It was so long ago. I mean, I was 15.

Starting point is 00:24:17 I mean, I was 15. So hopefully you're different than everything. I hope I grew up. I was high emotional sometimes, but I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through.

Starting point is 00:24:29 I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through.

Starting point is 00:24:37 I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through.

Starting point is 00:24:45 I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. I'm through. and I have the opposite problem. My body is still actively making estrogen, and I take testosterone, but if I quit taking testosterone shots, my body would start right back up.

Starting point is 00:24:51 And in fact, my body would also convert excess testosterone back into estrogen. So... Are you on a rheumatase inhibitors and all that stuff or just like that? No, I just keep an eye on my levels, but I've noticed, for example, if I have to mess up my shot schedule

Starting point is 00:25:07 because I'm traveling or something, and so I double up a little bit, and I get a little extra, you know, a little extra or something, I notice that it immediately makes me feel different. Like how? Um, goodness. If I'm too low or too high,

Starting point is 00:25:20 both the same things happen, I get tired, I get cranky, I get irritable, I get hungry, I start craving chocolate. That's just me every night. If that's, that's, it's probably the hormones I swear, because if I, if I have too much testosterone, I'll start getting cramps, like I'm PMS-ing. Interesting. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:40 I wonder if too much of it is getting converted to estrogen, maybe that might be why. Yeah, it goes back the other way. So, especially for people who are thinking about trans people from a competitive standpoint, especially trans men, if they happen to still have their original plumbing in terms of their internal reproductive organs, there's no such thing as being able to gain too high of a testosterone advantage over cis men because your body automatically converts the extra back in estrogen.

Starting point is 00:26:06 There's like no way to max out, royd out your body fixes that. You can't overdo it. You're actually taking less testosterone than some female bodybuilding competitors will take. I know female bodybuilders will take higher doses than that just to compete in their chosen sport. So would you get tested then for other substances?

Starting point is 00:26:30 For example, you're saying if you take too much testosterone, gets converted to estrogen, let's say you were to take an anti-aromatase drug, like a remadex, which prevents that, or an estrogen blocking type drug, or whatever, athletes will sometimes take, are those banned for you as well as other people? Like what's considered legal in the IOC for you? Is it just the hormones that you take because of your, you know, the testosterone in the estrogen? Or...

Starting point is 00:26:58 So my understanding is, is that if you are taking whatever it is that you're taking as part of your hormone replacement regimen because that's different for everybody, depending on what the person's individual medical needs are, that whatever that medical program is, that's considered part of your treatment, and that's allowed.

Starting point is 00:27:18 The problem is if you deviate from that. So that's why the new IOC rules require all this rigorous testing is that it's individualized. So it's like for this person, their levels are at this level and they're taking this thing and whatever. So then you test them again

Starting point is 00:27:33 and see if they're deviating from their, whatever their levels are. Because I guess the thing that the IOC is realizing as medical professionals everywhere are realizing as more and more trans people come out, live authentically, go through medical care, is that the ideas about what happens when you go through treatment, they're all changing. And realizing that everybody is individual,

Starting point is 00:27:59 everybody is different, every trans person's transition looks different, what people do or don't do, how much they take or don't take, it's all different. Yeah. Athlete, athlete. Now, I do want to be very clear on this point and all of us, I can speak for all of us

Starting point is 00:28:13 because we've all talked about this many times. I think individuals should be able to do whatever they want to themselves. I never, we're totally in favor of all that. And private organizations have the right to decide how they want to you know Sanction their sport who they're gonna allow in The the conversation really was about you know is there an advantage? And you know, I believe firmly and I don't think there's a there's I don't think there's a huge advantage

Starting point is 00:28:42 From a you know mail who transitions to a female and competes, although there may be there, excuse me, the other way around, a female who transitions to male and competes, but I do think male to female transition may have some huge advantages. And this just comes from my own background in sports and training and both of you are saying, no, there is no, no inherent advantage in that, is that correct? In here. This is such a big conversation.

Starting point is 00:29:14 Yeah. I mean, I think, because you can put that for anything, though, you can put that to genetics. You can put that to your nationality. You know what I mean? Like my friend, Kiana, is five foot 11. to genetics, you can put that to your nationality. You know what I mean? Like, my friend, Keona, is 5'11, way bigger than me, just naturally stronger than me.

Starting point is 00:29:33 I can't lift what she lifts. I can't move as fast as she moves. Where's the advantage at that point? We're just two different people. You know what I mean? Like, he's bigger than you. Right, right. Thank you for pointing that out to us. Well, and especially in a sport,

Starting point is 00:29:47 like, especially in a sport like CrossFit. So I get the argument, no, I don't get the argument, but I understand how people who don't know better could make that kind of an argument for a sport where everybody who competes at an elite level has more or less the same body composition, the same size, the same physical talents, the same physical attributes,

Starting point is 00:30:06 like people who do Olympic track racing, for example. They're all the same size, more or less, they're all the same body type. Crossfit is not like that at all. Everybody who does, like Crossfit athletes, are just as varied within the men's and women's divisions as they are compared to each other. There are female Crossfit athletes who are taller

Starting point is 00:30:25 and probably way more than some of the male athletes. There's no homogenous example of what a crossfit athlete looks like. And so especially in the Crossfit context for people to say, oh, trans women have an inherent advantage is bullshit. Chloe's like, what, five, five? Five foot four and what, 120 pounds soak in wet probably. I was. 130 maybe. Okay, she's 5'4 and 138 pounds soaking wet. She doesn't have a physical advantage over any

Starting point is 00:30:56 or over any cisgender female, except the fact that she's been training for the last like X amount of time and it is clearly like a very strong and an accomplished athlete, but that's not because she was born, assigned the male gender at birth. It's because she's dedicated time to being who she is. Right, I think if we look, when we look at, on an individual basis, it can all break down. For example, if I look at the top, top level of any sport

Starting point is 00:31:23 in the women's category, like if I look at the top MMA fighters, and I take Ronda Rousey and I'm like, okay, she's one of the top female fighters, she'll beat the crap out of 95% of the men in the world. When we look at it that way, but when we compare her to a man who also competes at the highest level, same body weight, obviously there's an advantage. And I think that's why we originally created or sports had a, actually most sports were always men only. And then they had a female division and men and women typically don't compete against each other in most physical sports.

Starting point is 00:31:58 And I think that's why as far as athletes looking the same in the older sports, like track and field and all the sports you see in the Olympics That's the democracy the democratization of sports Originally they all look different originally when you if you look at the Olympic competitions 80 years ago you did have a lot of difference in size and stuff But as competition got stiffer and stiffer the ideal body type started to emerge for each sport like a swimmer difference, differ. The ideal body type started to emerge for each sport, like a swimmer typically has really short legs long torso long arms, a sprinter typically longer legs. And so on CrossFit, I don't think it's been around long enough to see that, but you're starting to see it, because if I look at the competitors across fit, when it first started and I look at them now, they look, there's a big difference. Then we start to see a big discrepancy once you got up into the 200 pound range. We were looking at 150, 160, 170, and then there was a big sort of...

Starting point is 00:32:52 Yeah, when you talk about a Chloe size, there isn't a big, big difference to this. But sort of a hockey stick, like graph to that. I've had a certain point. Yeah, when I look at the top level, and I compare apples to apples, for example, if I compare a female cisgender athlete, 148-pound powerlifter, and I look at her top squat, and then I look at a male cisgender male, same body weight, his top squat, the male is typically anywhere

Starting point is 00:33:22 between 60 to 80 pounds or maybe a 100 pounds stronger. As they get heavier, that discrepancy starts to get bigger. Like the heavier they get, the bigger the difference. Well, sure, but that's a cisgender man. That's not a trans woman who's been on hormones for two years. Right, right. And so where I start to get with that is the argument, and I've read a lot about this.

Starting point is 00:33:43 And this is why I'm like super open to having my mind change on this. But when I read about this, if a man goes through transition and goes on the hormones, he will lose strength. He does lose some bone mass because his testosterone levels are lower, he's taking estrogen, all these other things.

Starting point is 00:34:00 But there are other things that, especially once you go through puberty, that stay more permanent. Like lung capacity, heart size, especially left ventricle muscle hyperplasia, which is, so as muscles grow, they hypertrophy. But then there's something called hyperplasia where muscle fibers actually split and become new muscle fibers. And this happens, we think through puberty. So where some of this muscle becomes more permanent. Like, I'll give you an example. I had a, there was a friend of mine

Starting point is 00:34:29 who used to come into my gym all the time to visit and he was 85 year old man, didn't work out anymore, but he had these just really muscular forearms and the guy was an Olympic lifter for decades. Stop working out, didn't do it anymore, but you could see the remnants of the hyperplasia that had happened through the decades of training. And so that's all the nice things.

Starting point is 00:34:48 We see examples of this with bodybuilders, right? You see bodybuilders that were competitive bodybuilders for 10, 20 years in their life, and even if they don't touch weights for the next 40 years, they still have this dense muscle that they've built. But the thing that you're talking about is still very individualized, because somebody like Chloe, who transitioned when she was a teenager, even pre, I mean, you were a small teenager, you were not a big teenager. So you stopped your physical puberty

Starting point is 00:35:14 when you were 15 as a small 15 year old. There's no advantage there. My problem with the whole drawing lines about competitors, should be allowed or shouldn't be allowed, is that trans people are not all the same. To make that assumption is that you could put all trans people even medically in the same category and you can't, because not all of us start transition at the same time,

Starting point is 00:35:34 not all of us take the same hormones, not all of us take the same kind of hormones for the same amount of time. Like there's so many different factors. Like I didn't even start being athletic until my late 20s. Way after we transitioned. Right. But I mean, so that kind of throws the theory out the window, right? What if someone decides to become an athlete later in life?

Starting point is 00:35:55 They haven't, they haven't built the muscles that you're talking about. What do you think the most ideal way to standardize? You know, do you guys have it? Because right now, what is it? Is it one or two years? Do they say that you do? I believe two not surgery, but it's not surgery. There's two years on hormones.

Starting point is 00:36:11 Yeah. Do you guys think, do you guys think that that's a good standard? Or you think it should go back further? I think, I think the only truthfully, I think when people are worried that a two year period is not going to make a big enough difference, is this mythical vision of a person who decides to transition from male to female after they're a buff, very capable, super solid athlete,

Starting point is 00:36:36 and then they magically decide to transition, and then two years later become like a fierce competitor in the women's category. Just doesn't happen like that. Like that's just not reason. Is that what we saw with the MMA fighter? Isn't that what we saw with the MMA fighter? No, she, she, I mean, I'm not saying that that never happens,

Starting point is 00:36:53 but I'm saying to make policies that affect all possible transgender athletes everywhere, based on a very specific example of a potential scenario where there could be some kind of an advantage is Lucrous. To me, when I hear cis men, it's always cis men that bring this up, by the way. And it's always cis men freaking out about trans women who want to compete.

Starting point is 00:37:16 When I hear these thoughts, all I can think about in my head is that men have this idea that there is some inherent advantage to being male. Physically. That's your assumption. I don't think that that's actually true. I think that we have a proof of that. And I don't, but I don't think it's because you were born male.

Starting point is 00:37:36 I don't think it's because you're born male. I think that it's because there are things that are in your body, but it's not. I hear you're certain. Okay, I hear you're certain. The idea that men are somehow just naturally, physically superior is not true. Well, I think this across the board. I think, I disagree with that.

Starting point is 00:37:53 Yeah, I think this, I think if you're male, if you're, if you're, if you're biological male, the things that come along with it include the hormones, include the changes, yeah, but that's not immutable include the hormones, include the changes, the include the- Yeah, but that's not immutable. Those things don't remain advantages, just because you were born with them.

Starting point is 00:38:10 No, but if you go through puberty, some of that stuff stays, you know? Some of it does, but my point is, is that we haven't been treating, observing, or engaging with trans people who've been going through medical transition for long enough to make any real conclusions about what Medical transition does or does not do to one's body

Starting point is 00:38:30 That's a fair statement. Truthfully, I struggle to find trans men that are 10 years older than me who can talk to me about what's gonna happen to me 10 years from now Sure on hormone therapy like it just hasn't been around in the next So we're asking yeah, we're asking for, well, what if this happens and what if that happens? Like, fuck, just let trans people compete and we'll find out what happens. Well, I mean, because that's the only way

Starting point is 00:38:52 we're ever gonna know, right, is if we just let people do it. And we see what happens. Why not let us just, like, yeah, it's a matter of standardizing the, how do we handle this? Well, why not let them compete in their biological sex? If it's not about, if you're not gonna change your sex in order to win and it's really not about that, then why why not let them compete in their biological sex? If it's not about, if not you, if you're not going to change your sex in order to win, and it's really not about that, then why not just let them compete at their biological sex? Well, because that's

Starting point is 00:39:11 invalidating a person's gender identity. Why? If you're looking at me and telling me you have to compete as a woman, that's invalidating to my gender identity. I'm not saying that you sh- I'm just asking why. I'm curious to why you would think that, you know? Well, because- Or why not make another category category another category so I could compete against only other trans people I mean my my body my my body is a human body. I'm not a trans body. I'm a human body So like I shouldn't have to be in a category of other people That have bodies just like mine in order to do something I mean when you think like that

Starting point is 00:39:41 I think then we should just open it all sports up to it's every human male Fewer few know why not right? I mean that's but a lot of a lot of weight a lot of gems are doing that Yeah, I a lot of it's a lot of I know so that would solve what we're thinking about right now is just why separating you You're away if you're 150 or 150. Yeah That's one of the things that we're competing by body weight But then that conflicts with something like title 9, you know, and things that have made, you know,

Starting point is 00:40:09 initiatives towards like getting, you know, people's scholarships and things like that. How do you guys feel about that? Yeah, this is, and that's where, you know, if you're a female athlete in high school and you can get a scholarship, you know, there's been, and by the way, it's not just this gender man. I have, I care less, I feel more for the women.

Starting point is 00:40:25 I feel like they've been speaking out more. I've seen more women speak out and say, it's not fair. Recently, there was a, I forgot what competition it was. I think it was a cycling and, you know, transgender, wins the competition. And the, and there were women who were saying, hey, this is unfair, I've been working for this for so long, I lost this competition,

Starting point is 00:40:48 I think that this person has an unfair advantage. I do also wanna say this though, these are organizations that it's fully within their right to make their standards how they want to allow people to compete. So I don't think there should be any laws or anything ridiculous like that. And I do think the market will determine, like you said, what this is going to look like eventually,

Starting point is 00:41:08 because a lot of these sports, you know, a lot of these sports need viewership, evolving, participating, and we'll see, you know, we'll see what that kind of looks like. And I do like that. You said, I'm a human. I, at the end of the day, I day, I'm a huge advocate of the individual. And I think when we look generally, because right now we're talking about generally men, generally women and what that means, it all breaks down when you look at the individual. At the individual level, that's what's important. And I'm 100% for that. But sports for a long time have done this.

Starting point is 00:41:41 And by the way, this isn't a new, this isn't a new dance that sports have tried to do. This is ever since Annabelle steroids entered into the fray. This has been a conversation. How do we you know, level the playing field? I don't know, test for this. Which is, which, you know, Chloe, you made the argument about genetics, like what if someone's just taller or stronger, you're absolutely right. That plays a major, major role. But it also doesn't answer this. The question of, okay, you know, these sports are trying to... Because what do you think would happen if we let everybody compete together in every sport? I can 100% predict what would happen. Men would dominate most of these physical sports. And it's not... We're just bigger and stronger and it's just, you know, our hormones and our genetics. I think we would dominate most of these sports,

Starting point is 00:42:28 and when you look at the records, if I compare women, cisgender women, untested strength sports, so these are sports like powerlifting, where they don't test them for steroids, so many of them probably take them. And I compare them to men of the same weight class, drug tested, which doesn't guarantee that they're not on steroids

Starting point is 00:42:45 But it does show that they're probably on less or more careful Because they're getting tested The men still will outperform the women who may be on antibiotics and so They're I feel that there's and you're right on an individual level God, it's different from person to person. Like when we use Chloe as an example, you transition so long ago, I don't think that there would be an inherent advantage. I just don't.

Starting point is 00:43:11 But if you have someone who was 25, 26 transitions, now they compete at 28 or 29, there might be an advantage. There might be an inherent advantage into that. What it. I mean, I'm putting my hands up because like, so what? And first, I mean, cis women who get mad because they feel like they might potentially have opportunities taken away under title nine that they might lose to trans women, like trans women are not your enemy.

Starting point is 00:43:39 Trans women are your sisters. Don't forget that title nine title IX exists because the government had to mandate people treat women like equal individuals to men. Title IX only exists because nobody was letting women play equally and on the same level and for the same rewards without a law. So, women who are upset because they're losing Title IX advantages, that's a bit of a misdirected anger because like title nine only exists because we have to mandate equality. Well, I think they're upset because in order to get that,

Starting point is 00:44:13 we have to be a top performing athlete. And it's like if I was top performing and now I'm not. But a trans woman is a woman, an assist woman is a woman. So a trans woman who's a college athlete who wants to compete in her sport and get a scholarship and do great at whatever she does, she deserves that opportunity just because she's trans doesn't make her any less deserving of that opportunity. She's good at what she does, she's good at what she does. Like a trans woman is not a second class citizen to assist woman. And it's not like cis women get the scholarships first. And if there's

Starting point is 00:44:43 any left over, we give them to trans women. Do you do either of you have any examples of you know women who've transitioned to men who are now dominating in their sport or winning because I keep reading the opposite I keep reading about you know men who transitioned to women. So I don't know who that is. He's a Olympic triathlete who is a trans man who does really well in competition against this man. Okay, excellent. I had no idea that there was, because the ones that keep reading are, you know, men who transition to women who then there was the Olympic weight, there was a weightlifter from

Starting point is 00:45:18 New Zealand, there was a cyclist, there was a few other examples, but I don't hear. Do you have the also a a kind of key point. You have to also keep in mind. Some people are forced to be out. I transitioned to 15, so from the time of 15 to 2013, I lived my normal life as a woman. I was not publicly out to people. People knew because I grew up here

Starting point is 00:45:44 or people knew because they were friends of friends, but I wasn't publicly out to people. People knew because I grew up here or people knew because they were friends of friends, but I wasn't publicly out about anything. I had to out myself to fight for a right that I thought I should have. So we are only talking about select individuals that are- How do we know about? That we know about.

Starting point is 00:46:03 There are hundreds and thousands of trans people all around. I was going to ask you the numbers. You guys know the numbers? There's estimated 1.4 million trans adults in the US. So because also, I mean, my era, 25 years ago, gay men were still being hung up strong behind cars. And still who feels right still are. But point is yeah, I Fell I was forced to not talk about it that I was less than human Mm-hmm that I had if I wanted to survive I just had to fit in So I wasn't trying to be better than anyone. I wasn't trying to be different. I was just doing my life Found a sport. I, I did okay at it. It was just the sequence of events.

Starting point is 00:46:48 Not everyone wants to be out and fighting a fight. How do you not told them would they have ever found out? Probably fucking not. And I'm not asking. Do you kind of regret that now? No, not at all. Not at all. Because it started this wonderful movement.

Starting point is 00:47:03 Mm. But. This conversation probably wouldn't happen. Let's have a round. Right, I was just, did you get a lot of games? Like I said, I was just dotting my eyes and crossing my teeth. I just wanted to make sure that if I was able

Starting point is 00:47:17 to move forward with a team, that my team would be safe because I provided them with all the correct documentation or whatever the health is. And as a side note, by the way, it's really Chloe's position that she was in having to think about like, do I say something and out myself or do I not say something? Undeniably would have been more successful had she not said something in the short term, right?

Starting point is 00:47:42 But out of herself in order to make sure that she crossed her teeth and dotted her eyes because the one thing that always happens when trans people are not out, if people find out later, it's always about accusing you of hiding something for ten years. I'm sure it's a weird thing.

Starting point is 00:47:56 Yeah, that's pretty good. It's people, it's people accused you of trying to trick people, trying to lie to people, trying to hide people, but trans people, whether they're out or not, nobody is lying, nobody's hiding, nobody's tricking. I was, right, you can be out or not. I was pretty predominant in this CrossFit community, the Bay Area CrossFit community at the time,

Starting point is 00:48:17 tons of competitions, the friends all around, the whole gambit, so I knew a lot of people. So when all of that broke, I didn't even know the story was breaking, quote unquote. I was working out and I went and picked up my phone and it was just a flood of text messages. Yeah, I had no idea. Did you get a lot of hate? Yeah. Mainly men, very little from women. It was more people in the community that were surprised I never said anything or let them know than hate.

Starting point is 00:48:55 That was locally. When you were competing, how well did you do in the sport? Media ochre. Media ochre. Media ochre to well. It just depended. You know what I mean? You kind of became the, one of the, I mean, if I, if I Google, you know, trans athletes,

Starting point is 00:49:14 you know, you, you pop up, you pop up now, did you, you're saying you didn't anticipate to become that spokesperson? No. Was that scary? Yeah, how does that feel? No. Um, it was terrifying at first. But there was the added component of the lawsuit. So I felt like I could never say anything. I actually haven't. Until the last couple of months,

Starting point is 00:49:37 I still felt like I couldn't say anything. I couldn't speak without being under scrutiny. So I just kind of kept all of my emotions to myself during that time. I didn't really know who to trust or, I mean, anything. Cause it was a freaking lot. You can't be prepared for what a loss of like that is gonna do. Oh, I mean, I had no idea.

Starting point is 00:50:00 It went, it went, I mean, international. Yeah. What made you decide, what was, did you, what made you decide to do the lawsuit? Were you, were you at odds with it at first and thinking, okay, should I do this or not? Or were you like, no, I'm gonna sue them because this is not right?

Starting point is 00:50:12 So there was a certain person at HQ that's no longer there that was speaking to me in a way that I felt, just like I was just being belittled. I felt like I was just being belittled. I felt like I was being treated like the worst piece of shit on the ground. And I felt like it had been done before. Whether it had been done before or not,

Starting point is 00:50:35 I felt like this had been done, like the tactics had been done before. And it's not like I just decided to sue one, like from one moment to the next. It was a process. It was months. It wasn't something that I just took very lightly at all. Is that because you were trying multiple times and getting denied a certain way? And it's always this person who's denying you. Is it, was it, was it from one person to the next and then it's kind of just sat with one person. What are some of the things they're saying

Starting point is 00:51:04 to you? It's all on the internet. Well,. What are some of the things they're saying to you? It's all on the internet. Well, I want to hear from you and you're the person I care about, you're the one I want to know. The same experience. Basically, it was a lot of like, did we miss certain things in biology? It was just, it was the,

Starting point is 00:51:19 Oh wow, so it wasn't just no, it's like also insulting you. It was the most patronizing piece of shit letter that any attorney, like that a licensed attorney with some of that letter is crazy. It's been, it's got it, though, no part of it. No, it was basic, I got you here. It was basically like, it was basically like,

Starting point is 00:51:36 did we miss something in biology where it says if you were born with an ex and a Y chromosome that you could ever be anything but a biological male go fuck yourself? That was basically the attitude. Was you are what you are. You are what we say. You are no matter what you say you are the end.

Starting point is 00:51:51 So because science couldn't now had they handled it differently. Let's say they came. They said to you like, okay, well, here's a deal. We think there may be an advantage. We appreciate you doing the sport, whatever, whatever. Had they handled it differently? Do you think you would have reacted differently? Who frigging knows?

Starting point is 00:52:06 Yeah. Who knows? Well, because I feel you. It could have been two more years of back and forth. Yeah. Because I feel you. I mean, if someone comes at me like them, like, well, fuck you. Right.

Starting point is 00:52:16 Not only saying no, but you're also being an asshole. Yeah, you're also being an asshole. So, yeah, I just... No, you didn't win, though, did you? And I had to sign a piece of paper to not do it anymore, whatever. I literally took a mental toll on me that I never expected. I can't imagine. I literally can't imagine what that would be like. It was this volcano of emotions for me coming out publicly, dealing with all of that,

Starting point is 00:52:47 and then at the same time feeling like I couldn't say a jam word. So then I was trying to advocate, but then I couldn't do anything to advocate. If that makes any sense at all. Yes, yeah. Now you said great glassmune actually, apologize to the public.

Starting point is 00:53:03 How did that go? Well, so I didn't know that the end out, that the co-workings of OutWide and CrossFit, I didn't know any of that conversation was going on. Will decided to keep it from me, which was probably best because he knew what had been going on for me the last few years, like emotionally.

Starting point is 00:53:27 So, within an hour before Greg announced he and at the games that transgendered athletes would be able to compete will let me know. So then I was watching the life feed of it. Oh wow. I mean, I probably cried a little bit because it was just, I'd like this giant I definitely did it was like this just just giant

Starting point is 00:53:48 Relief and wait off of my shoulders, and I don't even care what the regulations are just that there's damn Guidelines now and regulations that allows people to have more of a Opportunity to compete. I keep forgetting you're over here. You're like the guy. Yeah, you're like the quiet one He's the fan favorite though. This guy's always getting all the barely talk. Yeah, talk. Yeah. That's very fascinating to me. So you must have felt redeemed.

Starting point is 00:54:18 Yeah, it was pretty damn cool. Yeah. I had carried the torch as far as I could and I was just hoping someone else would pick it up Mm-hmm. I had no idea it was like one of my best friends Mm-hmm. I'm touched. Oh, you know, I'm not gonna you know, I'm I mean To be just frank when I meet people like you both, you know, you're good people I haven't I'm known you very long, but I like you both.

Starting point is 00:54:45 I like that we're having this conversation. I wish more people could just talk objectively and have conversation and hear each other. And even if you don't change my mind on the competitive advantage thing, that's okay because we're talking about, what I don't like is the yelling and the fighting and the the device of this. I don't like is the yelling and the fighting and the... It's the divisiveness.

Starting point is 00:55:06 I can't stand it. I just kind of like in my normal life try to preach acceptance of other people no matter what. No matter what their beliefs are, like my father is very conservative and voted for Trump. Like I'm not gonna hate my father because he has different beliefs than me. Like that's our rights as human beings

Starting point is 00:55:26 to believe in what we wanna believe in. And you're right. I think people should just be able to sit down and talk. I don't understand why everything has to be a yelling match in a fight. Like, no one's ever gonna be definitely right and definitely wrong. It's just not the world we live in.

Starting point is 00:55:42 I would love to hear you kind of share a little bit about what that's gotta be be like, having a father that's conservative. You made the transition at a young age like that. I mean, how has that been and how have you navigated through that? So I think for a lot of people, and this is what, in my opinion, people forget, people

Starting point is 00:56:01 can have different political views and personal views. My dad was raised to do one thing, to vote one way. That's what he's always done. He's never veered from it. It doesn't matter what the issues are. He's never veered from it. But with his family, he is the most liberal person in the world. My dad said he knew that I was female. From the time I was born, my mom and dad didn't talk about it until I was five.

Starting point is 00:56:29 My parents supported the whole transition. They got me into a new school. My dad paid for my surgeries, like 100% of all the family. So you have had support the whole way through for family? That's awesome. Just politically different views. That's what about you, Ben?

Starting point is 00:56:45 So I actually don't have a relationship with my father anymore largely because of my transition really. He and I never had a great relationship to begin with but when I came out to him as trans that was like the last that was the last bit of me that he could no longer understand. That was like, you know, sometimes you have that kind of a relationship with a parent where you just never are on the same wavelength. There are some family members and some parents you're like that with and other folks you're not. My dad and I have never been on the same page,

Starting point is 00:57:18 but my telling him that I was trans was like the last, it was the last thing that he just can't wrap his mind around it. So he still calls me by my dad name, which is a term we use for your name you were given when you were born. And that's extremely, that's something that's very, I can imagine how offensive that was. That's extremely offensive. Yeah, I could imagine what that would.

Starting point is 00:57:43 I mean, he basically when I came out to him as trans, because we had no, we didn't have much of a relationship at that point, it felt very low risk to me to come out to him because it was like, well, yeah, what you do with this information is what you do with it because I don't have a lot in, I mean, it still hurts, obviously, because he's my father. But given where we were, I basically told him I was trans, told him, you know,

Starting point is 00:58:06 please call me Bennett. And at the end, he said, you know, I think I'm still going to call you blank. And he referred to me by my dead name. And I said, well, let me tell you what, you can call me Bennett. You can not call me at all. And I haven't spoken him since. And that was. That's tough. Probably two years ago. He texted me on my birthday, a really long text message that had a lot to do with Jesus. And then at the end, he still called me by my dead name. So I am pretty sure that he's never going to get it and we're never going to be on the same page. And that's fine with me.

Starting point is 00:58:38 My mom and her whole side of the family are super supportive. I have a loving partner and I have a great relationship with his family. My dad is just like, he missed the boat and due to a lot of his own issues that don't have anything to do with me. Is your partner cisgender male? Yes he is. Okay.

Starting point is 00:58:58 There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a cis guy. So it looks like I look to most people like I'm in a gay relationship, which is really funny because, you know, only he and I and people around us know, you know, know that I'm trans, nobody, I don't get clocked on the street,

Starting point is 00:59:15 but it's, it's funny. I actually pre-transition, I pretty much exclusively dated women. And- Well, this is fascinating. I used to, I used to date mostly women and when I came out to my mom, my mom blessed her heart. Like first, you know, I came out as a lesbian as a teenager and I came out of a trans man and then a year ago, I sat my mom down. I was like, mom,

Starting point is 00:59:43 so here's one more piece of good news. I'm dating a man. And I told her, I sort of had this whole speech planned out. So I was like, I'm dating a man and I explained to her how I arrived at that position. And I was like, okay, so what do you think? And she said, honestly, I'm just glad you're not going to date crazy lesbians anymore. And I said, well, I guess that makes two of us. She's like, because you've dated a handful of really good crazy ones.

Starting point is 01:00:07 I was like, yes, mom, thank you. So she rolls with the punches. But yeah, he's a dude. That's interesting. Did he always date the actual women? He, well, he, so he, he identifies as, what does he say? He's pansexual. He's dated men and women.

Starting point is 01:00:25 So he, to him humans are humans. And it's part of why we get along really well because I view myself as a human more than a man or a woman. So it kind of works. Now what's the difference between pansexual and bisexual? Is it, is it, is it, explain that. Well, so I don't use the term.

Starting point is 01:00:40 There's a lot of terms now. I know we gotta get through these. There's a lot of, I used, I don't, I just say, we're gonna have a glossary underneath it. We're gonna gloss you in a couple of terms now. I know we gotta get through these. There's a lot of things that I don't like. There's a lot of things that I don't like. I just say we're gonna have a glossary underneath it. We're gonna gloss you in a couple of things already. I used to use the word queer, the way that he uses pansexual, which to him and to people who say, pan, my understanding is that it means that you can be attracted to any gender. So men, women, it's also inclusive of trans people.

Starting point is 01:01:01 Oh, I see. So like bisexual is very specifically like you and women. It's just a gender man. It can be read that way and it also, it feels kind of old fashioned and that bisexual is predicated on there being a gender binary, first of all. It also gives off this idea that there's like an equal amount of like equal opportunity male-femaleness and a lot of folks that's not really accurate. It's more like momentary sort of and so queer or pan seems to be what people say. Yeah, it's pretty clear now that how you identify sexually or who you're attracted to is

Starting point is 01:01:38 it's on a spectrum. It's on a spectrum. I mean, come on, the most the the straightest dudes in the world go to prison and then they do a lot of gay stuff. Okay, let's see, they don't even have to go to prison. That's true, it's true. It's all on a second. Prison doesn't need to be on the screen. I'm just saying, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:01:55 Man likes shit up there, but, like, I'm just saying, that's the change. We run it now. Yeah, but that doesn't, the fact that doesn't mean we call and sell out in this for all of the time. I thought, but that doesn't mean... We made a call and sell out in this for a long time.

Starting point is 01:02:05 I thought. But that doesn't mean that there... It doesn't mean anything. Yeah, it doesn't mean exactly. So why does any of it matter? At this point, why does it... Any of it? You know what it is, I think what it is is...

Starting point is 01:02:18 Since the technology's gotten where it is and things spread and people change people movements change so fast now you know in 2008 all presidential all presidential candidates and pretty much everybody in Congress campaigned against the legalization of of gay marriage including president including Obama and Clinton that's how unpopular it was just 10 years ago within a short period of time. If you're a politician today and you say you're against gay marriage, you're probably not gonna get elected.

Starting point is 01:02:53 Or if you might in local elections, but it ain't gonna happen on a national stage. Even republic, even national ticket republicans don't tend to campaign on gay stuff anymore. It just happens so fast, and my point with that, it's happened so fast. And in the... I can't stand it.

Starting point is 01:03:08 We call it sports for nerds, or a sports for nerds. Well, in the past, like the women's movement, you know, civil rights took decades. Now it's like five year periods, and I think a lot of the pushback is because people are like, whoa, it's happening so fast, you know, like one minute, you know, transgender individuals were kind of hidden. And now the next minute, they're competing with,

Starting point is 01:03:31 you know, and we're changing bathrooms. And I think that's where the, you blew me away with 1.5 million, you say? 1.4 million is that, is that estimate? It's a big, fucking chunk of people. It's a big number. That's just adults, too. That's just estimated adults in America.

Starting point is 01:03:44 So the thing, I think the thing that is important to keep in mind is anytime you get caught up in the like, this is so much so fast and the newness of it, just remember trans people have existed as long as humans have existed. As long as humans have been putting themselves into two categories, there have been people who have said, I don't fit into either one

Starting point is 01:04:04 of those categories. In have been people who have said, I don't fit into either one of those categories. In every human recorded society, there have been out, gender outliers. We've been around for forever. The only difference is, is that nowadays, we don't have to be quiet about it. We can say, this is who we are. We're just like normal people,

Starting point is 01:04:18 and we can live our lives. But trans people have always been here. And for a long time, just had to quietly live their lives as a person they weren't. Just because they never transitioned doesn't mean they weren't trans. It just means they never got that opportunity

Starting point is 01:04:33 to live their real life. We've been here forever. And so anytime it feels like it's all new and exciting, just remember this is always been here, you're just now seeing it for the first time. It's getting a dollar. It's getting a dollar. It's getting a dollar. It's getting a time. It's getting a dollar. It's getting a good example of this. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:47 I mean, there are so many cultures in the Eastern Hemisphere where they embrace a non-binary idea of gender just from the get-go. There are a lot of Asian cultures, particularly like in Thailand. They have a huge culture around embracing the idea that the gender spectrum is expansive. There are people there that present in a very non-binary kind of way on the daily and it's just okay, that's just how they live. It's not new at all and it's certainly nothing to be scared about. Like if anything, we are more scared about what happens when people find out we are here

Starting point is 01:05:25 than anybody should ever be scared of us being anywhere. Yeah, I don't, I don't, you know, I think it's a sad thing to be afraid to be what, look, if you're not hurting anybody, I think it's sad to be afraid to do whatever, as long as you're not hurting anybody, that's always been my belief. If I don't care what you do or who you are, if you don't hurt anybody, I think it's crazy to be afraid

Starting point is 01:05:50 You know for being whoever you want to be I think that's always been insane But today it is It's definitely much more out there Except we're going backwards. Yeah, do you think we're going backwards? It feels like it really what's most explain that what feels backward what feels like it're going backwards. Yeah, do you think we're going backwards? It feels like it really what's most explain that what feels backward? What feels like it's going backwards? I know I just said I don't get into politics, but here we go just typical climate that we have going on right now It's very very cloudy. Yeah, you know what I think it is I think it's the the most extreme people or the ones that we hear I think there's a lot more people that are getting the message. I like to think of it as the last dying gasp of like

Starting point is 01:06:28 white male supremacy sort of giving its last like. This is the last little bit that we get to hang on to all the things that we've always gotten hang on to and this all this noise and this anger and all of this crap that's going on right now is people feeling scared about the impending end of whatever control they feel like they've always had. So I'm gonna give you, because I mean, I'm very much on the side of people need to be respected, people deserve dignity, and people should be judged

Starting point is 01:07:01 on their actions and character. That's 100% the kind of person I am. But I do want to give you a little bit of advice. When you say white male, when you say that kind of stuff, what it does is it moves the conversation from... It will shut us out of the conversation. Well, it moves the conversation from the individual, which it should be the individual.

Starting point is 01:07:20 Look, I've... You know, my political views are very libertarian, which are, I believe, in the individual. So, you know, respect the one individual. Look, I've, you know, I'm, my political views are very libertarian, which are, I believe in the individual. So, you know, respect the, the, the one individual. That's the smallest of all minorities. All minorities break down to one person. And I think that's where the conversation needs to go. But when we start to talk about groups of people, I think it, it moves the conversation where you don't want it. Like Like you don't want the conversation to be, you know, generalized. Yeah, you don't want that.

Starting point is 01:07:48 Oh, when I'm talking about the white male freak out, I mean the people who run the government. Okay. I mean, literally the white guys that are in charge. Again, that's an overgeneralization. Yeah, say the people who run it, the people in power because. But don't you, don't you think that a lot of their pushback to what's happening is rooted in their whiteness and their mailness? I think it's can you make that call when you're a white man?

Starting point is 01:08:12 That is not rooted in white man. I think it's just the power thing. Yeah, but power in this country is rooted in white men. It's rooted in green and money. That's right. I'll tell you something right now. Some of the people that the people who want racism and discrimination and bigotry to exist are the ones that profit from it. And sometimes

Starting point is 01:08:33 that's black men, sometimes that's women, sometimes that's cisgender, it could be transgender, it could be anybody. When they profit from placing people in categories and generalizing, that's who we need to be careful for. And what we got to do, I'll tell you what, here was my back when when gay marriage was a big argument and debate, I actually marched, I marched in support of it. I have a lot of friends who are gay and I thought it would be great to support them. But my argument was always this, why the hell does the government give you anybody permission to get married? I think that's insane. Why do we have a certificate does the government give you anybody permission to get married?

Starting point is 01:09:05 I think that's insane. Why do we have a certificate that says, hey, we want to get married. Oh, it's not the gin, unless we go ask permission. We acknowledge this. I always thought that that was insane. I didn't think the argument should be legalizing anything. I thought it was crazy that we had to make it,

Starting point is 01:09:19 that we had to sanction it with the government. That's always been my argument. And so I always caution people, if you're gonna make your argument and you're trying to make the argument of, respect me as an individual, use the language that is on par with that. Because when you go on the other,

Starting point is 01:09:35 because I'll tell you something right now, when you say white men, and I know what you mean by it, by the way, I totally understand what you mean. But I'm a white man. I'm a white man. I'm a white man. So I feel like am a white man. I'm a white man. So I feel like as a white man,

Starting point is 01:09:47 I can speak honestly about the times when my whiteness and my mailness benefit me. And I can put a finger on instances when both of those things have helped me. Sure. But you've also had some huge, you've also had some massive disadvantages. Oh, sure.

Starting point is 01:10:02 I mean, it's all relative. But I feel like it's important to keep, to always keep your perspective intersectional. So for an example, you can do, you can do an exercise that I call a, that's called a privilege walk, although it doesn't have to be a walk, it can be mental, but you could do a privilege walk no matter who you are and find yourself more privileged, relative to somebody else around you. So for an example, everybody, well, we can't do this on a podcast, but put one finger in the air if you've ever walked into a gym and felt nervous because you didn't know which locker room to use.

Starting point is 01:10:33 All right, I see what you're saying, right? Right? Put your hand in the air if you've ever walked into a facility and you've never known which bathroom was safe for you to go in. Right. Right. Right? If you can't answer yes to those questions, then you are more privileged than somebody. Well, so here's a side. So here's what I have.

Starting point is 01:10:48 But here's what I have a- Here's what I have a- Terrible argument. Because I, as a quote unquote white privilege supposed to be guy, I could do things like raise your hand if your father committed suicide, raise your hand if you're- But that has nothing to do with yours. I'm talking about as a trans person.

Starting point is 01:11:03 So as a trans person, when I walk into a facility, I frequently don't know which bathroom I'm supposed to use That is something that you as a cis person have a privilege to not have to think about do you still do you still feel that? I could argue that I know what you're saying with the bathrooms But I could say someone that has more privilege because they didn't have to go through what I went through as a kid This is what I'm saying is relative to everybody though. That's why you have to keep it I think I hear I mean I hear what you're saying, but again, I think it goes, always goes down to the individual because if I were to make a list

Starting point is 01:11:32 of all the different potential things that could give me an advantage or a disadvantage, my goodness, that list will be so long. And now that's not to say that I'm not empathetic to the things that you have to go through. I'm extremely empathetic. I've never experienced that. I've never gone into a facility.

Starting point is 01:11:50 I can only imagine what it must feel like. Although I don't think it probably happens to you anymore because you could walk into the men's bathroom. Nobody would even question. Now, but I can only imagine what that must feel like to walk into a restaurant and stand in front of the bathroom and be like, okay, which one do I go in? Because if I go in this one, maybe someone's going to say something. If I go in this one,

Starting point is 01:12:08 someone's going to say something. I have a tremendous amount of empathy for what that must feel like. Absolutely. But again, we have to look at the individual because when it goes down and we just look at the individual, here's what's going to happen. When we make that argument and we make it strong and we stick to it, especially when you're on your side, on the side that you're on, people are gonna be forced to meet you, engage with you, and then pass their judgment from there. And you're both cool as fuck.

Starting point is 01:12:35 And I think that's what will win. I think when we start to categorize, because then you're playing their game, you start doing that. And I promise you, it's gonna stay there. And we don't want it to stay there You know we got it we got to respect people for as individuals and like I said like I think it's funny because People who may have an opinion of transgender people and then they meet you not knowing that your transgender

Starting point is 01:12:57 They're probably like oh cool guy really cool dude and what not even knowing even though they may have an opinion that might be counter to that and And I think that's how we'll change people's minds. I have many people on social media, probably handful a month, men specifically that follow me. And then I don't want to talk about being transgender on social media. I feel like it's just a common knowledge thing. I don't know why. Everyone's in a role just say something about it.

Starting point is 01:13:25 And I'll get people to say that exact thing. That I had this belief, and I've been following you, and watching you, and I had no idea. And thank you for... Shadow my character, right? Right. That also raises another good point, though, is that people's ideas about trans people

Starting point is 01:13:43 are based on this assumption that you know who is not trans. Exactly. Just because you don't think you've ever met a trans person before, I guarantee you've met a trans person before. No, they may not have introduced themselves as a trans person, but just because you couldn't pick somebody out, clock them for being trans doesn't mean that you have to. No different than assuming somebody's white privilege because they have white skin, bro. Well, no, because institutions, institutions treat white people differently.

Starting point is 01:14:11 Doesn't, it doesn't matter. We're talking about the individual. No, no, no, but I'm talking about like I can, I can look at a person and assign the privilege of whiteness to them, even if they're not actually white, because I give them that privilege in my head, right? It's the same thing with male privilege. People give me male privilege in their head because they think I'm a dude.

Starting point is 01:14:29 I don't think of myself that way, but they give me that because that's how they perceive me. That's different than saying you've never met a trans person because you can't tell what a trans person looks like. I hear, I know what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree. I think you're right in many instances. However, many times that breaks down.

Starting point is 01:14:48 I'll give you an example. People talk a lot about male privilege. Well, sometimes there is male privilege, and sometimes there's male, there's the opposite of that. For example, suicide, men, disproportionate amount of men commit suicide. When we look at, I went through a divorce a few years ago and now dual custody and we both co-parent very well,

Starting point is 01:15:10 but very, very difficult time. But when you look at the statistics of divorce, when the man actually wants dual custody and the mom or the wife says or the ex-wife says, no, I want full custody, men lose. Men lose all the time. I love children, love kids. I grew up around kids my whole life.

Starting point is 01:15:27 I'm the oldest of four. I am consciously aware of any time I meet someone new when they bring a child, I can't just pick them up and kiss them because they're gonna look at me and think you're a creep. Oh, he's a guy, he's a creep. Now I'm not complaining by any means. I'm not making a competition about who's more

Starting point is 01:15:42 privileged or whatever. My point is that argument is only going to hurt what you're both trying to do. I think the argument needs to be as an individual, you know, if you want to judge me, judge me on my character and who I am. And that's going to fucking win. I promise you, that's going to win every time. Again, if both of you meet people, and people actually meet you without preconceived notions about whatever, they'll probably like you,

Starting point is 01:16:10 and that'll win the competition. I remember, again, back to the gay marriage thing, I only used that one because that's such an example of how quickly the country shifted their opinion. It was like, it was TV shows like Will and Grace that got people to, because a lot of people didn't know gay people, and then they watched Will and Grace, and they're like, oh, okay, that's kind of all right

Starting point is 01:16:26 That might be all right or whatever and people kind of open up and then they started meeting people on and they They realized that they were cool and before you know it a majority of the country was like hey Let's let this shouldn't be illegal. You see what I'm saying and so that's just that's just where my I think my stance is on On that whole thing. This is such a bigger conversation. I mean, I've been hated on by other trans women. Really? Because of how I look. Because they have stated that I would never understand the plight of trans women that are possible.

Starting point is 01:16:56 Because you're a little. Because you pass. Because I'm pretty. Because look like the. Is there a lot of that infighting with that? It's not. I don't think it's so much infighting. A lot of it, but it does come at me.

Starting point is 01:17:10 I don't think it's infighting so much as it is that like trans women, particularly trans women of color tend to be like just the most universally shit upon group of people in America today. Like today, trans women of color have the highest rates of homelessness, joblessness, and murder in the US. A lot of it is because trans women, because they were born, but assign male at birth, right? And sometimes don't have access to medical intervention and are not all as blessed to be five foot four,

Starting point is 01:17:45 like Chloe, like it is a lot harder for trans women to pass. And non-passing trans women get so much violence heaped upon them in our country, like verbal violence and actual physical violence and also institutional violence as well, but certainly physical violence, like on the real. And for women who are in that position, you know, somebody like Chloe obviously can't help it that she is who she is and that her transition went the way it did.

Starting point is 01:18:11 Same as me, like I can't help it that I grew a beard. And I'm not super short, right? I can't help that. But for people who don't pass, like it's really hard. And it sucks that they take it out, you know, that they choose to project that frustration on to Chloe, but like that's really hard and it sucks that they take it out, you know, that they choose to project that frustration on the Chloe, but like, that's a real thing. Passing politics are huge.

Starting point is 01:18:32 What are the, what are the, some of the debates within the LGBT community? Are there debates and discussions and disagreements? Oh God, that's another rabbit. Here's ass like for all the rabbits. I'm so I'm very scared. I mean, we want you guys to see it., I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, no, no, it's just that, it's just that like trans people, it's a topic of conversation. Trans people are the lowest position on the LGBTQ totem pole, except for maybe intersex folks

Starting point is 01:19:13 who sometimes get grouped into the LGBTQ community as well just because like trans people, we don't know how to treat intersex folks and so we stick them with the trans folks and the queers too. But these people that will... Intersex are people who are born with ambiguous genetic. Genetic. Genetely.

Starting point is 01:19:34 It can go other way. You can have predominant male, predominant female, remnants of both. Yeah. And traditionally people who were born intersex, they would just go like, oh, are you more like a male or more like a female? And then they would chop them at birth and force them to live as one or the other. How does that? Nowadays, people tend to just let intersects people live as an intersects you.

Starting point is 01:19:57 And they decide later. Yeah, or they just live as an intersects person. But even within the community, it's, I've experienced lesbians that have, are you talking about turf trans men? Because they feel like trans, that they're trading, becoming traders, and because male privilege. So lesbians feel like they've been pushed down by men

Starting point is 01:20:24 and when you're trans transmaled that you're like training for the other side. I mean, that's a whole nother rabbit hole, but it's also been the community. Also, some of it has to do with age because you think about like, are there people in the gay community and the lesbian community who 50 years ago

Starting point is 01:20:41 would have been trans, had they been able to be? Yes. And so, like, there's an age sort of thing in that, I will speak in the like lesbian and queer female community where there are women who identify as lesbians but who are super butch who, probably, who possibly under other circumstances may have allowed themselves to realize that they were trans. But given that transitioning wasn't really a thing, they just always lived as super-bunch women.

Starting point is 01:21:07 And so now it seems like there might be an influx of like queer women transitioning and becoming trans men. And I don't think it's that more people are doing it. I just think it's that it's like more people are being themselves. It's easier to realize who you were. There might be just a lot of pent up resentment that just has to do with their own challenges.

Starting point is 01:21:30 Oh, there's a lot of that just generally. There's a lot of misogyny among trans men in the trans men community. I call my trans siblings out on misogynistic behavior all the time. Do you think it's because now they're like, okay, I'm a, you know, transition of a man. I'm gonna act like the most stereotypical macho,

Starting point is 01:21:52 you know, example of what a man is or whatever. Yes. I mean, and that's probably, I mean, to play devil's advocate, somewhat of a defense mechanism to fit in. Yes. I mean, in our culture, we have such a narrow view of what it means to be a man and what an acceptable man looks like.

Starting point is 01:22:12 And that's, there's not a lot of gray area in society in terms of how you play. But the same thing goes for women. You can't make this count women because for me, transassuring at such a young age, like I over-sexualized myself because I thought that's what men wanted, because that's what's put out there. So everything I did was based around being sexual and sexualizing myself as an old man. And ultimately you put me in the sex trade because I just went down that rabbit hole like what is what is the

Starting point is 01:22:46 ultimate form of acceptance from a man? I do I do agree that the death that how we interpret what it means to be male or female or masculine or feminine. I think a lot of it is convoluted with advertising and in media. You know I and know, like being a man means that you're, you know, you punch people and you act super macho and being a woman means you're dainty and quiet and all that kind of stuff. I don't like that. I don't like that. But I do think that there are traits that are very healthy, you know, and men and women, we should celebrate them, you know, like, I revolve it around just being confident, being a good supporter, being a good, now by the way, this isn't your gender, this could mean...

Starting point is 01:23:31 Is it just qualities? Yeah, these are just human beings. Right, being a human being, but some of these things we've connected to being more male or more female, and good or bad, if that comes from biology or not, I don't think that's the point. I think the point is people should just be cool, you know, good or bad, if that comes from biology or not, I don't think that's the point. I think the point is people should just be cool, you know? Well, isn't the like the gift of human human knowledge is that we've learned what it takes to make humans healthy and well-rounded beings, right? We've learned enough about what makes humans happy and well-rounded and know that

Starting point is 01:24:01 just sticking to a list of stereotypically masculine or stereotypically feminine behaviors without a mix of both is not gonna make anybody happy or healthy. What makes a healthy, healthy, happy human being is a mix of all kinds of qualities, regardless of what gender stereotype is assigned to them. And again, if you look generally, generally you can say, generally women tend to be,

Starting point is 01:24:24 you know, more interested in this kind of stuff say, generally women tend to be, you know, more interested in this kind of stuff. And generally men tend to be, and you can definitely say that. There's been studies on this done for decades, but that's not the point, because again, if you go down to the individual, I can find many women that seem to enjoy the stereotypical male things and vice versa. Well, you can learn to do things that don't come naturally to you. Like, you can recognize that being an empathetic person makes you happy and healthy. Empathy may not come naturally. It's a muscle and you have to exercise it.

Starting point is 01:24:52 So if it doesn't come naturally to you, it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. There's this practice of... There's actually this test that you can take... I took a long time ago where they have pictures of just people's eyes. Was it in Cosmo? I don't remember. And no, it was a... It's like a... It's like a... of just people's eyes. Was it in Cosmo? I don't remember. I don't remember. It was a...

Starting point is 01:25:08 To see their sexual reference. No, no, to see what your... Attracted to. No, not what you're attracted to. Yeah, empathy is from a birthday. So you look, yeah, just keep it on. Like you can tell if someone was sad. Yeah, like can you tell what their emotion is?

Starting point is 01:25:19 Are they sad, happy, or whatever? And women tend to score much higher than men on that particular thing, on the empathy, generally, again, but I score very high on that. So, and again, it breaks down when you go down to the individual. Well, and then you have to also wonder as somebody who spent, you know, most of my life, more of my life being raised and socialized female than otherwise,

Starting point is 01:25:43 there's a lot to the idea that you are socialized to look for those things too. That like women, women may not naturally be better at reading emotions. We are taught to read emotions. I mean, I will only speak for my own girlhood, but I know that when I was little, I very clearly remember being told by women who were older than me, like pay attention when somebody does this. It means that they don't feel this or when they do this, it means that they're feeling

Starting point is 01:26:12 whatever. Like you were, you were instructed how to, how to interpret those things also. You're, you're, you're getting definitely more coaching in that direction. Yeah. For sure. I think, I think there's probably like all things, there's, there's a, a mix of both, you know, and it's hard to separate the two, like, you know, that there's probably like all things, there's a mix of both, you know, and it's hard to separate the two, like, you know, that there's some genetic component

Starting point is 01:26:28 and then there's some, you know, social component. So. You asked Chloe the question earlier about whether or not she had noticed a change in herself from transitioning, so I actually did notice. Yeah, I was gonna say because I know studies will show that when you give someone more testosterone

Starting point is 01:26:43 and more estrogen over time, they show changes in the actual structure of the brain as well. And certain behaviors, I would love to hear about what your experience was. The first thing that I noticed changing about the way that I thought when I started taking testosterone was I noticed that my ability to change my perspective about an idea became much more limited. And I'll give an example. So I'm an attorney by trade. I am somebody that's been taught how to see

Starting point is 01:27:16 and argue multiple sides of a boy. You're good at it too. That's something that I know how to do. So I can still recognize gray area and nuance and argument. And I can still recognize gray area and nuance and argument. And I can still make those arguments. But personally, pre-transition if somebody had told me something,

Starting point is 01:27:32 and then I thought about it for a while, and I could change my mind about it. So if I disagreed with something, I thought about it for a while. I could reason my way around changing my mind. It's much harder for me to do now. And it's not that I can't still see the argument or the gray area. It's just hard. Yeah, it's really harder for my brain to switch. That's interesting. The way that I'm thinking. Another

Starting point is 01:27:53 another concrete example is the physiological cry response. So it used to be pre-transition. If I was super angry about something, it would manifest itself in crying, which I know a lot of women, I used to empathize with other people who were socialized female who suffer from the same problem in that it's really genuine, serious anger. And it's not sad or upset, but your body deals with that emotion and that rush of feelings by crying. Right. That doesn't happen to me anymore. And even still some really sad things have happened to me

Starting point is 01:28:32 and I cannot make myself cry, which is really sad. I actually get sad about the fact that I can't get sad. Now has that made you more or less empathetic for men? You know, it actually made me a lot more empathetic for men. When I started transitioning and I noticed the ways that my brain was shifting and my ability to emote and just other things sort of changing, it made me empathetic because I realized that when you have, I feel like you have sort of, like your tools are not as sharp in your toolkit.

Starting point is 01:29:04 And I don't mean that effect like any offense at all. I just mean that like my brain on testosterone feels like a much more blunt instrument. Yeah, I would've said I have different tools now instead of. Well, it's more of a hammer than like a fine instrument, right? And so the ability to like fine tune my thoughts has changed. And I had a lot of empathy thinking like, man, cis men who are, you know, raised in our culture. And if they're not

Starting point is 01:29:32 raised with any particularly good influences about how to sort of be critical in your thought about when people tell you a good man does X, Y, or Z, or this is what men do, if you're not critical in your thought about that and you buy into that and you never really question that and then you have this set of tools, it made me empathetic for the fact that you really can develop some very unhealthy, socially counterproductive habits, just by existing. It's sort of like it would be very easy

Starting point is 01:30:01 to just naturally become kind of not an awesome person. It takes active work to- There's some utility. It takes like active work to unlearn the bad habits and sort of the free passes that you sort of- There's some utility and there's definitely some utility and the differences between the way, this is a subject that I find fascinating.

Starting point is 01:30:20 I read a lot about it and there's definitely some utility and the differences between the way men tend to think and the way women tend to think. And I think they should both be celebrated, but like, you know, women build communities. They communicate far more and far more effectively. Men are very, very good at being focused singularly on one thing, sometimes to our fault,

Starting point is 01:30:44 but many times societies also require that. Like you need the crazy, super hyper focused guy who's gonna invent, invent shit or go over that mountain and it's super dangerous or whatever. So there's utility, that's why they both exist. And I also think that there's a healthy version of both and an unhealthy version of both. And I find it very fascinating that you're able to see how, because it does, hormones do influence how we,

Starting point is 01:31:08 you know, how we think in the way we feel about certain things. Did you notice any change, because I know they say, the literature will say that, typically, and I'm not in this category, by the way, that typically men have better spatial skills or directional skills. And the reason why I say I'm not in that category is I literally get lost everywhere.

Starting point is 01:31:24 My boyfriend gets lost everywhere my boyfriend It's not ever Did you notice any changes in your in your spatial ability or is that to that's always been a strong suit of mine? I don't I don't I didn't notice I Didn't notice any difference in like talents or Like I didn't I didn't notice that I didn't notice that the change like amplified.

Starting point is 01:31:47 I could juggle now, yeah. Yeah, awesome. Well, no. No, I was gonna say, I don't notice that it amplified anything that I was like, naturally, I don't know. I don't think it made me anymore gifted at anything. So it sounds like me a guy fucking sucks

Starting point is 01:32:04 you didn't get any upgrades. Well, other than the beard. Other than the beard. Well, the muscle mass does help too, although that comes with its downsides too. Like, I'm hot all the time. Yeah. That was actually the very first thing

Starting point is 01:32:16 that I noticed about hormone transition. We always fight over the. Yeah. It was hot. I was talking a lot about it. It was hot in here. It was hot in here. It is hot in here. I need a fan.

Starting point is 01:32:25 It is hot in here now, but I felt like I was possessed or something just sitting in an empty room and would just be sweating bullets for no reason at all. It felt very much like in the Spider-Man comics or in all the Spider-Man movies, the first day that Spider-Man wakes up after he's been bitten by the spider and like everything he does, he's like, oh shit, look I can do that now I can do that. That's what being a trans person is like, at least it was like that for me every, you know, not every day, but- You start to feel the influence of the hormones and stuff. Yeah, you're like, oh look at what I can do now, I can do this, I can do that.

Starting point is 01:33:01 So he was- You were saying your boyfriend is the one that doesn't have good, do you have better direction? Oh, damn it. He could go to the same place like five times and still not know how to get there. Oh my gosh, that's me. And I'm just like, okay, I'm just figuring it out. Go wherever you want.

Starting point is 01:33:14 How long have you been dating your current boyfriend? This guy, oh it's just very new. Now are you exclusive, you exclusively date men? Yes. For the most part. I've tried with women. It's just disgusting. For me, I don't like vaginas except my own.

Starting point is 01:33:31 So I'm not going to like, I try. I gave it the good old college try about three times. And it just was on my thing. How does that conversation when you start dating a man, when do you start having that conversation? I mean, that's got to be a tough. Is that early on or? It's just a ball of wax.

Starting point is 01:33:48 It's not when it's like, a lot of people in my life assumed, like after I had surgery that you, I wouldn't have to say anything anymore. And I feel like it's actually more pertinent and harder to say something, I mean, I had surgery like million eons ago, but still it's harder. Because there's no natural.

Starting point is 01:34:09 Right, there's no signs of natural. There's no impetus, there's no like eventual. I can see that. For me, it's just, I tried to rip the bandaid off right away and just get it done. The problem is, it's not a problem. Because I am passable, I hate to use that, but this is just genetically how I look.

Starting point is 01:34:27 But because I am passable, 99% of the men that come into my life have zero idea. Right. Have you had some bad reactions when you tell? I don't get physical reactions, but I've definitely seen like the red light up like behind someone's eyes because they're angry or confused

Starting point is 01:34:48 or feel tricked and I was like calm down. Yeah, calm down. Yeah. I try to be empathetic and understand like a shock value and being curious. Axel's not a gun. It always it it it amazes me that anybody could ever meet Chloe and have them say like

Starting point is 01:35:07 I'm a trans woman and for them not to go okay, you're still the fucking hottest thing. No, I get, seriously. I get turned down by, I would say 99% of them. I don't understand. Even after they asked me out, like we were in New York, this is before I was in the relationship, we were in New York, so I just turned that Tinder on like five million radius. And I probably 12 guys asked me out, and I told them all, and only one was okay with it.

Starting point is 01:35:32 So it's just, I don't know, part of the course. It's just how it is. It's hard to find stigma around it. I mean, that's just more, that is 100% to do with them and nothing to do with you. But it's also an age thing. So the 30 and under crowd seem to is 100% to do with them and nothing to do. But it's also an age thing. So the 30 and under crowd seem to be 100% more less than 100% A, okay, was it?

Starting point is 01:35:52 Do you tend to date younger than as a result? Oh, yeah. I mean, I kind of always have that. But it also doesn't look like she's as old as she is. So she fits into that 30 crew. I mean, it's always been within eight years. She fits into that 30 crew. I mean, it's always been within eight years. I mean, so it's fine. A 25 year old guy is fine.

Starting point is 01:36:19 They have the stamina I prefer. Not always the technique and not always the mental capacity to be, oh my God, I'm like a very sex positive. I'm a very sex positive body positive person. That is more. I'm surprised she has clothes on right now. That's more my thing. Yeah, based off her Instagram, I am too.

Starting point is 01:36:40 I thought she was gonna come with it. That's more my thing than I'm an advocate for being trans, but I think being Body positive is what it was actually positive. Is the biggest thing to me. There's such a stigma around As a whole different conversation, but It's been very interesting as a trans woman to deal with people sexually and like see how that works. Well, that conversation's like boom, we need to have this conversation right now, whereas when you're, when that's not, you know, a topic

Starting point is 01:37:11 that might happen later on. But I get to feel like, men, it's just, this is weird, guys act like it's herpes or something when you tell them that I'm trans, they like freak out and are disgusted and I'm like, eh, I don't understand. Do you ever get tired of having this conversation? Yeah, telling people that I'm trans?

Starting point is 01:37:32 No, just what we're talking about right now. Like, let's be honest, I'd love for you. It's be honest with you, even coming here, were you apprehensive to come here thinking like, Oh, yeah, I mean, I think I said it in the beginning, and I didn't say this to you. So you had asked me before if I was interested and I ignored it because I don't I avoid being like put up again into a corner. And so I don't

Starting point is 01:37:55 know you. I had no experience with you. Chances are I could have come here. It could have been a 50-50. I could have been here by myself and I could have been put in a corner and be me arguing with you guys. 50, 50, I could have been here by myself and I could have been put in a corner and be me arguing with you guys. I try to avoid that kind of stuff, so I just don't answer. I'll just ignore you. What about you, Ben?

Starting point is 01:38:11 I, I, He's like, I love constantly. Yeah, I mean, He says, He's like, I mean, He says, He's like, I love constantly. He says,

Starting point is 01:38:19 He's like, I love constantly. He says, He's like, I love constantly. He says, He's like, I love constantly. He says, He's like, I love constantly. He says, on the menu, I'm down. But more to the point is that I am an I view myself as an educator. I don't live in the closet. I have never been in the closet in any of my various identities that I could have hidden

Starting point is 01:38:35 the closet never have. I'm very out and proud about who I am and I'm open to having this conversation with other people as many times as I have to so that other people don't have to because I pass because I have a beard because I'm tall enough that most guys don't fuck with me because I'm you know college educated because I have all these things I put myself in a position to have these conversations so that people who are not as fortunate as I am. Sure. Don't have to because I hope that they won't have to. So, no, I will have this conversation with as many people as I asked me.

Starting point is 01:39:12 Now, sometimes I will tell people like I'm not in the mood or I don't have, I use this phrase called the spoon. So, have you guys heard of the spoon theory? No. This is amazing. So, it's premised on the idea. It started with a woman who suffered from chronic illness She had an autoimmune disorder that caused her chronic pain. It might have been fibromyalgia or something similar

Starting point is 01:39:32 But the idea is that everybody has a certain number of spoons that they start the day with and everything you do costs you a spoon or two or three and For some people depending on what situation you're in, certain tasks take more out of you than others. And so sometimes I just don't feel like I have the spoons to give to a conversation about my gender identity or trans issues. Some days I have the spoons and I'll say,

Starting point is 01:39:59 yeah, I can have that conversation, but some days I just don't have the emotional energy where the physical wear with all. But, you know, part of being a person who takes care of themselves is recognizing when you do or don't have the capacity to engage something and knowing when to turn it off. And so I turn it off when I don't have this base two

Starting point is 01:40:18 so that when I do, I can have that conversation. I call that fucks. Yeah, it's like I don't have the fucks again. No more fucks. Yeah, I would get so many fucks. Sometimes it's about fucks, but sometimes it's just about energy too. Like sometimes you just don't have like you, you're like, I literally cannot be fucked to like get up right now. Sure. I like to say when it's when it's more of the fucks, I say, I don't have any more spoons all I've got is knives. No more spoons in my drawer, it's only knives, so stay away.

Starting point is 01:40:46 But yeah, so I like to have these conversations. I keep a blog, I am out at work. A big part of my practice is helping to educate people on issues of diversity and inclusion in the workplace. So yeah, this is my work. What are some other of the misconceptions out there, the things that maybe annoy you the most that you have to combat? Well, so you asked a question earlier that that raised a point that I wanted to bring you asked Chloe about what the steps were in her transition.

Starting point is 01:41:15 Yeah, so one of the common misconceptions that I want to make clear for everyone is that trans people are a very big community and so broad umbrella. And what it means to be trans is kind of different to everybody and so every trans person, their transition looks different to them. And so like what Chloe has had done or what she has chosen to do to bring her body in line with herself is different than what other trans people

Starting point is 01:41:43 may feel like they need to do in order to do it. So there's no like set agenda for a gender transition. I run into people all the time who have the misconception that if you don't have dysphoria about all of the parts of your body, then you're not trans. And that's just that's just false. There are a lot of trans people who don't choose to have gender reassignment surgery because they don't have any problems with their body the way it looks. They may have problems with the gender

Starting point is 01:42:11 that other people assign to their body parts, just based on them being body parts, but they don't necessarily have a problem with their body themselves. So for me, having surgery was crucial. Yeah. Like I couldn't imagine another day with male genitalia.

Starting point is 01:42:26 And other trans women just don't feel like that. Which baffles me. Yeah, I don't understand that. I can still support them, but I don't understand that. That's not my experience. What's the legal, legally now you don't need, you don't need reassignment surgery.

Starting point is 01:42:39 What's the legal definition now of when the government considers you male or female? Is it just the hormone for a certain time? It's different. It's different in every state and it's different. Really, there's no federal. There's no federal. It's different everywhere.

Starting point is 01:42:52 So in the state of California, in order to legally change your gender or say on your driver's license, you go to the DMV and you fill out a form that your physician has to sign an affidavit saying that you are undergoing appropriate treatment for gender identity disorder or for gender identity. But that's not new. No. That existed when I transitioned. So that's not new around a very long time.

Starting point is 01:43:19 That's not new, but the difference is that California law used to require surgery as part of gender identity treatment, and it's not required anymore. Basically, the law says that your doctor says that you're doing what's appropriate for you, whatever that means. So for some people that's surgery for other people, it's not. Now, what happens is there's something that will indicate biological sex if there's an emergency, because I know that there are cases where if you're biological male or female, that in the ER, that they need to know, you know, uterus or whatever, is there anything like that? Or okay. No.

Starting point is 01:43:57 It would be up to the person to disclose. I mean, like, if I went to the emergency, you're unconscious. What if you're unconscious? Well, if I was unconscious, they'd just have to take my pants off. Okay. It'd be pretty obvious. Well, don't they test for, you know, if you're pregnant,, like, if I went to the emergency room, what if you were unconscious? Well, if I was unconscious, they'd just have to take my pants off. Okay. It'd be pretty obvious. Well, don't they test for, you know, if you're pregnant, even like down to, you know, if you're a girl, like, you know, little girl,

Starting point is 01:44:12 they'll test for that just so they know. I mean, I owe T.E.D. And was it managed at the hospital unconscious? There was never an issue. Okay. I think it depends on also why it is that you're going to the doctor. So this raises an interesting point.

Starting point is 01:44:24 There's a hashtag, I forget if it's like, I think it depends on also why it is that you're going to the doctor. So this raises an interesting point. There's a hashtag, I forget if it's like sick-while trans or something like that, but it's basically people sharing their stories about terrible things that have happened to them when they've gone to the doctor to seek treatment for something completely unrelated to their gender. And I've been told that they can't receive medical treatment because they're trans. So for example, I had a friend who went to, we at UC Irvine and he went to the UCI health clinic for a sinus infection. Just a sinus infection happens to be a trans person and they told him that they couldn't treat him for a sinus infection because they weren't sure how the antibiotics were

Starting point is 01:44:58 going to interfere with this hormone therapy and he's like, excuse me, just the same way it would with anybody else. I have a sinus infection, but they wouldn't treat him because they didn't know how to treat a trans person. That's ridiculous. It's like your gender identity in that case has nothing to do with what you're there for. There's a few cases where it will come, but maybe it's not that. No, no, no. I kind of want to back up a little bit as well when you're asking about what it looks like for me. So up until recently, they just believed, doctors just believed that for trans women

Starting point is 01:45:27 that you just counteract the testosterone, counterbalance it, and then remove the source completely. But that's just not the case anymore because you need testosterone for your body to function properly. So for many, many years, I just had estrogen in my body. And that was just the school of thought. That's just how it, that's just how it was to make you as femmarine as possible. You removed all the testosterone. So now I have a balance of both.

Starting point is 01:45:56 What, what, did you notice a physical difference, emotional difference? Did you notice any differences between the two? Well, the biggest perk was sexual. Yeah, 10,000. Because I'm already a huge sexual, a sexually driven person anyway. So for me, that was phenomenal. And my mental state and my sleep. Mm, interesting. You both went, yeah.

Starting point is 01:46:16 Exactly. Well, those are extremely important things. Yeah. We talk about the importance of both those things. So. Well, hormone balance is a bit, I mean, we're in the fitness and health space. And that's a big, big deal. and I can only imagine how difficult it would be to balance that as you're,

Starting point is 01:46:31 it probably takes years to figure it out. Exactly. Yeah, like being able to have the right blend. The newer doctor that I'm seeing couldn't believe that I was working out the amount I was and doing what I was doing with no testosterone. It's, I mean, the medical profession is basically treated trans people like science experiments for the last like 50 years. There's been no real concerted study of how to treat and help trans people with hormones.

Starting point is 01:46:56 It's all pretty much hearsay, what people say at conventions, it's all very informal. It's only just starting to be tracked on like a long scale basis, but even the most the only study to my knowledge that's been done on the long-term health effects of like hormone replacement therapy and trans men has only been done over the last 15 years, and it was only with like less than fewer than 200 people in the study. So it's not even really like that big you, that good of a study. But we, I mean, like what Chloe is saying with the experimentation has been,

Starting point is 01:47:29 that's just how we get treated. The second endocrinologist I ever saw decided for whatever reason he thought my testosterone dose should be half of what I had been taking under my prior doctor, even though there was nothing wrong with my labs, nothing like that. He was about 93 years old, had never treated a trans person before, thought my dose was incorrect

Starting point is 01:47:49 without seeing any information, cut it without my having any say in it, and basically I was like a crazy person. For three months, I felt totally out of whack, like emotional, tired, moody, all these terrible things, finally went back to him and was like, no, I need to go back to where I was. And he was like, I just think that's too high. And had no had no regard for what I was saying.

Starting point is 01:48:10 So I had to see a different doctor. He also told me every time I saw him, then I need to be careful not to get pregnant. Because something really terrible could happen if I ever got pregnant while I was on tea. And I was like, first of all, you only need to give me that warning once, but like just, just the one, just the one time is good enough, but certainly every time I sit down, you reminding me that I could get pregnant is a bit triggering.

Starting point is 01:48:31 So I also thought it may be because he was too old and he didn't remember, he had told me, but he actually died shortly after I quit seeing him, so he really was a really old. But he was an endocrinologist. He is the kind of doctor that is supposed to treat people for things like I needed treatment for. And he had no idea what he was doing.

Starting point is 01:48:53 And he was supposed to be an expert. So it's a lot of being trans is about having to advocate for yourself and having to do your own studies. Are there specialized doctors out there that you know you can recommend or you know There's so many there are there are now. Yeah, there's so many I mean my first doctor was actually right over here like off the Alameda really just but and that's all she did 25 you know, it's it's regional though It's like here in NorCal

Starting point is 01:49:20 There's a lot of resources for trans people in healthcare. Balancing out hormones for anybody is hard because they just came out with a study that showed that in men testosterone levels don't dictate how strong they are or how much muscle they build as much as the Androgen receptor density does. So Androgen receptors are the receptors that the testosterone attaches to, and they were finding that men with lower testosterone levels

Starting point is 01:49:49 just got more out of that testosterone than some men with higher testosterone. And this is more of a recent thing, and I have clients who've had to go on thyroid. We've been giving people thyroid medicine forever, and it's like, takes them like a year or two years to just to figure out the right dose. So it's a hard, that's a hard thing to figure out.

Starting point is 01:50:05 What about cost? How much does this cost you? Yeah. Can I ask you that? I have no fucking clue. I have no fucking clue. It turns out what's covered in what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, like how much out of pocket?

Starting point is 01:50:14 I have pocket, yeah. Luckily with, at least with medical insurance, with thanks post affordable care act. How big you go, that's it. Sorry. Well, that's the thing. So, that's fine. No Well, the interesting thing is though, so since the Affordable Care Act was enacted, states had to enact policies saying that insurance

Starting point is 01:50:35 providers within their states could no longer discriminate against trans care. So it used to be that even if you had health insurance, your health insurance provider could refuse to cover care just because it was related to gender identity reasons. That's no longer allowed. So if you have insurance theoretically, you should be able to get insurance coverage for all of your care, which means like my copay for my testosterone is like 10 bucks for a vial or something is cheap. But the problem is, is that for surgery, even though it might be technically covered by insurance, surgeons who provide gender affirming care for trans people tend to be plastic surgeons,

Starting point is 01:51:11 and they tend to be people who don't take insurance. So we, at least I know- Because it falls under the cosmetic thing still. Yeah, well, and because if you're a plastic surgeon, particularly, like, so I'm a trans guy, and I've had top surgery, which means I had a double mastectomy in order to have a more male-contoured chest. The people who do that procedure are plastic surgeons, right? Plastic surgeons don't take insurance

Starting point is 01:51:32 because the procedures that they do are not covered by insurance. And if you know anything about administrating medical insurance, it's a huge nightmare. And so if they offer a services isn't traditionally covered, they have no impetus to get into any insurance markets because the people who buy their services pay out a pocket.

Starting point is 01:51:48 And so I have insurance that theoretically would have covered my surgery, but I couldn't find a surgeon who took insurance to cover it. So I had to pay out a pocket. So you had to pay out a pocket? Yeah. And it can be quite expensive. Yes. I can only imagine.

Starting point is 01:51:59 I paid out a pocket because I wanted to get it done fast. I could have gotten on a waiting list for somebody that would have taken my insurance and waited for like a year or more. So for me, I think we have more months for here. Cost about $1,200. Mm-hmm, maybe 14. You said per year.

Starting point is 01:52:15 Yeah, that's not too bad. That's a lot. That's like a hundred bucks a month. Well, it's because of testosterone. I do testosterone pellets. The bioadenical. Those are more expensive. So it's expensive. I don't care to do that. How often do you have to get the pellets, the bioadionicle. Those are more expensive. So it's expensive.

Starting point is 01:52:26 I don't care to do that. How often do you have to get the pellets put in? Every four months. Oh, so they last for a while? Four or five months, yeah. That's probably better than the up and down that you might get with injection, type of do. I've never tried the pellets myself.

Starting point is 01:52:38 I've done topical, like, androgyle, and I've done injections. Which surgery isn't cheap. I mean, and this is another thing I think we go along with that whole privilege thing. I was lucky enough to come from an upper middle class family that supported me and helped me. Not everyone has that available to them.

Starting point is 01:52:56 Not everyone can even afford their copay. Yeah. I mean, to have the surgery. So there's part of the privilege thing, I guess. But I mean, we're into the tens of thousands thousands of dollars depending on what we're talking about. Well, I want to really just commend you guys for just coming on and talking with us about this. I know you were a little apprehensive, like you said before. I appreciate this conversation. I think this needs to happen more. I don't think the whole, you know, the conversation

Starting point is 01:53:24 around whether or not it's an advantage in sports. I don't think the whole, you know, the conversation around whether or not it's an advantage in sports. I don't think we necessarily resolve that, but at the end of the day, I think we all agree that that's up to the organization and I think we'll see how it plays out. But at the end of the day, I think we all so all agree that we're all pro.

Starting point is 01:53:39 You're all team human, yeah. I think we're just seeing it give it about 10 or 15 more years and then we'll have actual evidence and Stuff to study. Yeah exactly. We don't have enough time behind us right now. It's gonna be a little tumultuous Probably for a bout to new thing. Yeah, well especially with a sport like CrossFit like it's such a diverse and multifaceted sport to try to Shoe in anything into two. We'll see if that sport even exists in ten years. Yeah, that's a whole other discussion That's a whole other discussion That's a whole other discussion

Starting point is 01:54:07 But but I want to thank you both for coming on the show. It's been great. I really really appreciate it and and maybe we'll do this again I hope so we should you guys can listen to our show Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for listening to mine pump If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump Media dot com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps and a ballad, maps performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 895: Do Transgender Athletes have an Unfair Advantage?

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