Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 912: How to Change Your Mental State with Music

Episode Date: November 29, 2018

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin catch up with Dan Clark, CEO of Brain.fm who gives an update the company's rapid growth and the attention their revolutionary mental state changing music is receiving from big players. Get 20% off of Brain.fm by going to www.brain.fm/mindpump The Mind Pump Bump: The Explosion of Brain.fm (3:51) How do they test or measure brain function while playing their music? The differences between monaural and binaural beats. (5:50) What are the most optimal headphones for this experience? (9:42) Where does he see the 300% growth coming from? (10:26) How is their member retention rate? (11:19) Have they faced any resistance or backlash from the Government? (13:56) What is on the horizon and what are they doing to evolve the business? (16:51) How do they use Functional magnetic resonance imaging or functional MRI (fMRI) to add to their music? (21:36) The importance of depth of sound and high fidelity speakers. (22:55) Have they experimented with altering states of mind? (26:19) The increased blood flow to the brain and does “Focus” produce better sex? (27:41) How to brands like Halo compare to theirs? (30:06) Sonic Branding and Brain.fm (33:06) Updates: Funding, Partnerships, and Brain.fm (33:59) Have they had any interest from the medical community for their product? (36:48) Being a science-based company FIRST and how they do things the RIGHT way. (40:00) How do you protect yourself from others not copying their brand? (41:54) Does he see in potential involvement with the entertainment industry? (43:31) What have been the biggest hurdles they have had to overcome as a company? (44:34) Since he has come on board, what has been the most exciting thing he has seen? (46:36) Why is he so driven to help people? (48:11) Featured Guest: Brain.fm   Links/Products Mentioned: November Promotion: MAPS Anywhere ½ off! **Code “WHITE50” at checkout** nuraphone — Wireless Bluetooth Over Ear Headphones with Earbuds, Creates Personalized Sound, Active Noise Cancellation (ANC), Social Mode, Multi-tap Buttons, 20 Hour Battery Life TIDAL · High Fidelity Music Streaming Halo Neuroscience I am the CEO of Brain.fm, and we’re making music that could eventually replace ADHD meds, AMA! Mind Pump Episode 745: How to Improve Focus, Sleep & Meditation with Brain.fm CEO Dan Clark

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. I remember when we first found out about brain FM, how skeptical all of us were when they were saying, oh, you could listen to this and it'll put you to sleep and it does the stuff to your brain this and that and we were all super skeptical. And the first person to use it, I think, was Adam and it was like, I don't know, two or three days later and Adam comes in and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, Adam, if I tell a story wrong. But, you know, you've got, you've had always, you've had problems sleeping for a long time. It's always been an issue for you. You always have, you wake up in the middle of the night and you don't get good sleep.

And Adam comes in two days later and he's fucking excited. Just refreshed. God, dude, it worked. It put me to sleep. I got to try it again. I want to make sure, you know, if it really works, but it really works. It put me to sleep. So then we all started using it. And it works. It works, man. It's crazy. I think we're all pretty skeptical, guys. It'll look for sure. I am. I know we're all pretty skeptical guys. For sure I am. I know when it comes to supplements or anything that someone's putting me onto, oh, do this, it's such a game changer

and it's like, okay, we'll see. Maybe that was your experience. But when I use this, I actually waited even a couple of times before I said something to you guys and it was consistently a game changer for me every time that I still to this day, if I ever have trouble sleeping or think

I might have trouble sleeping. So sometimes I make the mistake of having an energy drink or coffee too late in the afternoon, and so I know that'll be a challenge. I know if I do a late workout, I know that if we got a lot of things going on with the business or launching something and my mind is racing, or if I got stress going on personal

All these things keep me from sleeping really well and this has been like a go-to way for me to settle my brain not use it now. And that's just because of the fact that I lean kind of heavy on it now, that I've found that it's such an effective tool for me to be productive and to really stop all the chatter going on while I'm trying to concentrate and just get things done. It literally is like that. Like, I use focus now if I'm writing, you know, one of our guides or whatever, and I'll put it on, and it takes about, I wanna say 10 to 15 minutes for it to really start to kick in,

and then the next thing you know, an hour and a half will just fly by, and I'm just working the whole time. So these guys are doing some frickin' magic science over there with Brain FM. It is pretty magical, and this is why we're working with them. And so what we got for you guys is if you go to brain.fm, forward slash mind pump, you'll get 20% off your membership.

In this episode, we interview the CEO, the current CEO of Brain FM. So we ask him all kinds of questions. His name is Dan Clark. Super cool guy, we really like the guy. So you'll enjoy this episode a lot where we talk about the business of Brain FM, some of the science, and the direction that they're moving. Also, I do want to remind everybody, there's only two days left for our 50% off maps anywhere

sale. So maps anywhere is the maps program we designed that requires no equipment. So you can do this work at anywhere, you can do it at home, you can do it on the road, or you need some resistance resistance bands and your body. And we took the price we couldn't have. There's only two days left to take advantage of this promotion. Just go to mapswhite.com and use the code white50WHITE and the number 50 at checkout to get the 50% off act now because that promotion will be gone.

It won't probably go on sale for a very long time. And that's it. Without any further ado, here we are talking to Dan Clark, the CEO of Brain FM. Dude, so how is Brain FM doing, man? The last time, how long has it been? Did you get to make a massive move? Yeah, you're there now. How long?

So we're three years old now. I've been here, I guess, in my CEO role for a year and a half. That's right. And yeah, we've been exploding. So this year we did 300% growth. Wow. 300%? Wow.

So we're, thanks, fine pump. Not just kidding. That's weird, huh? That's right around the time we all see effects. Yeah. We call that the mind pump bump. That's it. Stop.

That's like a dance. That's what it's like. Boom. Stop, that's like a dance. Yeah, no, that's good. So we're doing that. And we've just been exploding across like other different spectrums as well. So we're doing a lot of experiments, different kinds of really seeing what's possible. So we have all this music, we have all of this, these new music things coming out, so we just like release classical, we have low-fi, we have a lot of new opportunities with it, and then we're still experimenting. I think last time

we chatted here, we're talking about workout music, we have pretty much the preliminary step of that right now, where it's like a physical, physical focus, right? So you know, testing it, same kind of things, the same promise delivered before, but really for workout, we're looking into like wearable integrations to complete the loop. So right now that the middleman, and we're still testing it, is this physical focus category. It's really interesting. I use it to start my day. So I like air pod or home pod. I throw it on it and I can't use coffee, can't drink coffee if I am playing in the way.

Why? It gets me to and to. Really? Yeah. So it's really strange. And this is the one you're experimenting on. It's not available yet. It's not available yet. So we're still fine tuning things across stuff. Because again, we want to we're science first, so we want to make sure that we have all those things. That's the thing I appreciate a lot about you guys, is that you guys are definitely science first. How do you test these things out besides the typical,

you have people tested and see if it works. Do you test like dopamine levels before, during an after-do-taste brain waves, like heart rate. Yeah, what do you look at? So we do a lot of different things. So we do it across three things. We do F from Rye, EEG, and then we do video games. Actually, we do large-scale testing.

So the really cool thing, and I just saw your face just there. The video games is interesting. So we do M Turk, Amazon's M Turk. In the whole premise, if you're not familiar, is basically you do tasks, and you get paid for tasks. So people go through it and we have a, you know, a description of kind of what we're doing. You have to play this game and it measures x, y, and z. And then we say, oh, you also have to, you know,

listen to this music while you're doing it. And we can tell if someone's listening to music based on, you know, if their headphones are plugged in, things like that. And we can show that people using our music have different effects with the different video games that we play. So we play our music with our neural phase locking, Bakedin, right? That's like the secret, the pattern process. And then we say the same music without the neural phase

locking, like a placebo almost. And we can show that, you know, for this video game, which is purposely made to be super boring, that people will play it consistently longer. Like this video game is actually made. So, like a adder all in your ears. Yeah, a little bit, like it's made so that you actually, like it's intently made so people don't play very long,

which is like the opposite of regular video games. And people will play extensively longer, but they also are more accurate while they're playing with brain of them in their ears. Okay, so what did you say the neural phase lock? That was sad. So I think we talked about this before. But basically, we have this AI that makes all of our music,

and we've termed it neural phase locking, because it's not BINERAL beats, it's not isochronic tones, it's a completely different vehicle for it. It's actually like a monitor, not binaural, like mono-tural. So, okay, what's binaural? And what's binaural?

So, binaural is the things that people are, I mean, most familiar with, it's the one ear, they have one frequency playing, and the other ear, you have another frequency. And what happens is your brain combines them in the middle, and it's supposed to have an effect. Got it. Right.

And what we're doing is we have a lot of different things, but it's mostly monural, where we're combining it before we put in the ears, and then we're doing the neural phase locking for that. Now why is that better? So what happens is with speech and with different kinds of oscillations and sound and different kinds of saline events, your brain is processing that. So it's just another thing that your brain has to process and pay attention to.

So we basically put it in, we already pre-do it for your brain. And then we have the neural phase locking. The neural phase locking is different oscillations between different frequencies. So it's not just like, you know, don-don, you know, all this stuff, like all the time. It's actually moving around you.

So if you listen to our music, if you really pay attention, you'll almost hear like a slight helicopter sound. That's part of it, right? And then we also use 3D sound. So we have an engine that can build sound. So it's part of it, right? And then we also use 3D sound, so we have an engine that can build sound, so it's concentrated to you, like above you, below you, behind you. Most like, you know, we're all have headphones on right now. It's more like a horizontal plane, but we can do a 3D plane

with everything. I've actually noticed that. Listening to it, it sounds like the music will feel like it's behind me or in front of me. Yep, is that what you're talking about? Yeah, exactly. So that's built so that you don't get normalized to it, because our brain, or actually our whole body is built for homeostasis, right? Because it takes a lot of things to concentrate and figure something out. And what we're trying to do is just optimize.

That's what our bodies are doing. What are the most optimal headphones for this experience? Because you've found. Yeah, so, you know, really I think the first thing is headphones that are comfortable, to be honest. I personally use the Apple Airpods all the time. I actually have two of them because I use them all the time and instead of like putting them back in a switch,

I just take out the other ones and I let them charge and I keep going. But I also use like the Bose headphones. There's these new ones that called neurophones that are really good. You know, we're still working through like different like recommendations and stuff, but really it's headphones that are best for you

that you feel comfortable with. Some people like noise canceling like the Bose headphones. Some people don't like that. So it's really what people want it Where's the growth come you said 300% growth where is that coming from is that because of Marketing strategies word of mouth. Where do you see all the All the only mind pump? Not just

We're done done Confirmation. No, I mean that's a part of it, but it's also, it's actually largely referral based. So I do do a lot of- That's a good sign. Yeah, I mean, so in our, like, we have 130,000 active users right now, and through the process of, how many people have tried us, it's like a million, right?

So it's funny, like, I'm starting to go with like more of these networking groups and these entrepreneur things, and I'm like, oh oh yeah, we make functional music, we do this and I talk about, you know, functional music for the brain and they're like, is it brain FM? I'm like, yeah, that's me. And they're like, oh my god, and they show me on their phone, it's on their home screen. Oh, wild. Yeah. Well, how long, what's your retention rate? Is it a monthly or annual, how do most people do it with yours now? So right now it's monthly and yearly.

We also have a tri-monthly option, but we're probably gonna get it. How's your retention rate? Because when I used to manage gyms, gyms were all monthly. One of the things that we would keep our eye on quite a bit was the member retention rate. And I believe the average in the big clubs

was like six months or something like that, or it was six to seven months. And if you could get them to eight to nine months, 10 months, you were just killing it, you'd be crushing it. And so we're always looking at that number. How are your retention rates? Do people stick around for a long time once they get on? Yeah, so like a normal app that's under 10 bucks

is about 12% turn. We're at 5%, so we're less than half of that. Wow. And then if you look at a retention rate over three years, it's like, it's, so yearlies, it's like 85% where people stay with us and we're only three years old. So I don't have anything further than that. But there's a lot of people that come to us and stay with us because they build it into a habitual process of their work. Because it works. Exactly. So we have a lot of people that are like,

is this a dicting because I can't sleep without it now? Right. And it's not. It's just that now you found a better way to sleep. So you're like, okay, I can go back to normal or I can do this. You know, and it's one of those things that are really magical because when you build it

into a habitual part of your day, you, it's just part of it. It's one of those things that are really magical because when you build it into a habitual part of your day, you, it's just part of it. It's a trip. It's the first time we used it, all of us were extremely skeptical. I think, how long ago was it that we used it for a couple of years ago? It was like two years. We were all super skeptical and Adam has trouble sleeping and he tried it and he comes back and he's like, I don't know, man, he goes, fuck, and work. This is really weird. I remember the first time we were in Cancun,

or not Cancun, what's called a cobble? And we were just like together, like had a long day, whatever, like we're just chilling near the couch and then he tried it and like literally, he was out and we were just making noise, TV was on, everything else and then he came back and like,

all refreshed and just tripping out. It's really weird and then it was strange. And the focus one really trips me out. There's times, I write a lot of our content blogs and stuff like that. And sometimes I just don't want it. It's very difficult. I'll get on, I'll open the computer,

and I just don't want to do it. And I'll put focus on, and it takes me, I figured it out now. It used to take about 10 minutes. Now it's about five to seven minutes of listening to it and all of a sudden I get into a zone every single time and it's really trippy, dude. It's not subtle, it's my point.

It's not a subtle thing. So my question to you is, anytime I've ever seen anything in the market that comes out that has a pronounced effect that's not subtle. It's a matter of time before the government starts to regulate their existence. Yeah, are you guys getting any kind of, is there any hints that the government's gonna be like,

wait a minute, or has it not gotten big enough yet? That's a great question. It could be both. It could be that maybe it's not big enough yet. It also could be that we're not, I mean really, it's, if you think about it fundamentally, we're literally just taking music and we're making it like supercharged, right? So it's not harmful because it's, it's just a, how I explain it to people, it's like

a shortcut to where you already can go naturally. So can you get into that focus place without this? Yes. naturally. So can you get into that focus place without this? Yes, but it's going to take you 15, 20 minutes or maybe hours sometimes. You know, you need to have the perfect thing. For me, way before brain FM, I basically would stay up. I would start my, so I started as a developer and a designer, right? I did that for years. And I would start my work day at 10 p.m. because my circadian rhythm, I realized that I'd work better at night, so I just worked around that.

And it worked, but it took me a lot to get to that zone and everything else kind of suffered from that, you know? And really, this is a shortcut for you to get there at any time you want on demand. Then that's the true magic of it. And putting it into your day is really the main thing. So I start every day, I have a cup of coffee, unless I'm trying the other stuff that we were chatting about

before, like the motivation wake up music. I think that's fascinating, by the way. You said that you can't do it with coffee. Yeah, it's almost like too much when I wake up. And it's not what I mean by trying this. That's what I mean when I say that it's pronounced. It's not subtle. Like there's things that you can try that are subtle,

and then there's things that you can try that you're like, whoa, this is a pronounced thing. No, this undeniably works. Like undeniably works. It's not like anybody that I've introduced it to, whether it's the focus or sleep, which tend to be the most, I mean, I have some people that use the meditation part of it, but I think the most popular,

which you could probably talk, speak to this, is the focus and the sleep. And everybody that I introduced it to comes back and they ask the same questions like, what is this doing to me? Why is this working so well? But what you would you say is, it makes a lot of sense, because for years,

for probably 50 plus years, people have naturally kind of done this stuff, right? You have certain music you like to listen to before you lift. That's for some reason gets you in the zone and amps you up or you have certain music that you like playing classical music works for studying. Right, why is that? Right, so you guys are just refined that process and you've broken the science down and figured out what all those noises and sounds are

and brought it to an app now to deliver it to us. It's extremely, extremely fascinating to me. Now, what's on the horizon for you, that what are you guys, what are you doing to evolve the business right now that you're most excited about? Yeah, so lots of things. There's actually, it's so funny. It's, if we compare this to

tree and like low-hanging fruit, there's so much stuff and I have to focus on say, okay, this is the most important thing, you know, because we can do a lot of things. I'll rattle them off later, but really what we're focusing on right now is to build a better product for our users and to really build more of a habitual process. Because again, the more you use this to your point, it takes you seven minutes now. Right. Before it took you maybe 15 on your first time, so the more you use it. So, we're building in a completely different interface that we're launching in January, which I'm super excited about. So, we're introducing favorites. We're introducing playlists.

We're introducing more personalization than ever before. So right now, we basically use different kinds of information we have to build a persona, and it's based on skips, and if you listen to the whole thing, and it kind of uses other mechanisms that we have, we're basically refining that now. So now you're going to say, actually, let's start off over. So right now it's focus-relaxial sleep and you click a button and it just starts playing.

We're building it to a natural language system. So now you're going to go to the homepage of the app and it's going to say, I am going to blank for blank. So in this example, I'm going to focus on deep work for 90 minutes. And we've been testing that right now with brand new users, with old users. And I mean, just for new users, our conversion rate doubled. Right. It'll populate what's best for that task.

Is that what you're saying? Correct. So now it's going to be playlist based. So now we go, okay, for, for example, I'm gonna focus on blank. So deep work is we're gonna have as a default, but then you can be able to be reading, writing, creativity. We're still working on the playlist

and how we're, so very Pandora-esque. Yeah, like task-based. So I'm gonna code or I'm going to do whatever. Well, if you think about it, that's brilliant, because each, all those different things that you're doing require a different type of focus and a different type of energy. Creativity's very different from coding,

which is very different from reading. Correct, yeah. Interesting. And then when you use it, we're going to automatically save those playlists that are generated. And for example, if you skip a song, you'll never hear it again, you know, or it'll be a really long time until you hear it. And if you favor to song, well,

automatically be able to improve that station, kind of like that Pandora thing you're talking about. So it's specifically designed for you. And then when you go back, if it's seven o'clock in the morning, it already knows you're going to start your day and it'll suggest this playlist and you'll be able to jump back in the same exact experience that you have. Well, so what's interesting about this is because I've been using your product for so long now, there's definitely songs that I think I like better, that sound better, and then there's songs that are just more effective. And I always find the ones that are more effective because I'm looking for a particular thing

that I don't want to do. And the focus ones with the piano in the background, for me, seem to be the most effective. So it's almost like this is going to further individualize the experience. So some people, they get really distracted by piano. They don't like it. Because it's part of the fundamentals of the sound and how it's designed.

But it's also part of personal preference because some people don't like piano sounds. Some people love them. And basically, you using the product, right? It'll add more piano. It'll add more piano, add more of the characteristics that you like, and for someone else using the product, even if you recommend it to them, it will be a little bit different. So I'm really excited about that. We're introducing favorites, so now we'll have generative playlist based on those. So

you'll be able to discover new music through your playlist, right? And then as you favorite things, we'll have a favorite section. And you say, oh, this has this. You'll be able to see like search by tags. So either the activity that you're doing, or if you want to hear jazz or certain kinds of elements of the music,

and then be able to generate dynamic playlist for you based on your favorites. And I'm really excited for that. It's funny too, because I'll talk to people about this and they'll be like, well, that's, that's, that doesn't work and that's weird. And I like, well, no, I mean, don't you have songs that change your state of mind? Absolutely. So it's kind of playing off that.

It's just much more fine too. Again, the whole premise is you, everyone knows that, right? And what we're trying to do is use AI and computing to build the best music possible, right? So it's super charging. So, you know, eating broccoli, everyone knows that's good for you, right? But if you eat broccoli and you work out and you take these supplements and you know what I mean? And that's what we're trying to do, but condense it all in a music platform. When you're looking at FMRIs and these tests and studies, what are you looking for in those?

Do you know the science behind that kind of stuff? So some of that science, just to be honest, is way over my head and that's way a PhDs on on team. But we're looking through blood flow to certain areas of the brain. We're looking through certain kind of the phase locking values that we have identified and we're terming as the neural phase locking.

And we're looking through synchrony of that matching to the different songs or the different places where it should be, right? So as you listen over time, F or Mariah, we can see that this is effective because it's putting blood flow to the parts of the brain we want, or maybe it's not effective or whatever.

And also comparing that against multiple individuals, because it's important that this works, but it's important this works for different demographics, different people. It builds off of fundamental things that we know through evolution. I think we chatted about that before, right? Where it's very well known that red,

one of the reasons why it makes us hungry is because the whole canopy is green and when you're going through the canopy and you see something bright color, it's built into a evolutionary, you know, it's like the fire. Like there's fruit. Yeah. There's whatever. Mm-hmm.

Exactly. I don't know if you'll be able to answer this specifically or not, but I was just thinking about this because I have a client of mine who's a very established musician, and she introduced me to this platform called Title, Jay-Z owns it, and I was just curious as to, their whole pitch is that it's more high fidelity streaming. Do you know what the difference is between something like that and a Spotify and what angle that may present

in terms of the richness of the sound and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, depth of sound is really interesting. So title is, and I'm pretty, actually, I'm pretty positive, but it's a lossless format. So that means that it has the depth of frequencies, depth of bass, way more than you can get from a Spotify or something like that.

That's the outstanding difference. It's kind of like, it's just a different experience. It's like watching a video from 720 to 4K. You still see the video, everything's fine, but it's just a nicer, crisp, richer. I was just in one of my friends's own Tesla like P100 right and You're in that car. I don't know if you guys have been in them Yeah, well the fun part is when you step on the gas feels like you get punched in the face

But he was showing me the sound system and how it's specifically designed for that car and he put it up to 11 Right and so I love the power of music. I go to EDM like raves like things like that. It's I'm all about it But when you go, like things like that. I'm all about it. But when you go to things like that, it's like the bass is boom, boom, it's so much. And sometimes it's uncomfortable. In this sound, even in this car, even though it was so crisp and so loud, it felt just super comfortable.

It didn't like hurt your ears, even at number 12, like at the highest it ever goes. And it was really interesting. It was a really cool experience. So getting back to title, when you have a lossless format, it's just a more premium experience, but from my understanding, it also has to be paired with a lossless, like a really high fidelity speaker.

So if you have a title, prescription, and then you're using like just regular headphones. It's not gonna be as crisp as if I'm using the headphones I have on right now, you know. Same thing with the brain FM, right? So we have our, most of our music tracks are like five times the size of Spotify because we have, we have to have so much depth of sound and frequencies.

Right. Layers and layers and layers. That's why I was thinking of that because yeah, you guys are trying to get it from all these different angles in the background and all that. I feel like a little bit of that would be lost on certain platforms. Yeah, definitely. We're talking right now, so a lot of our sleep tracks since last time we've shattered,

have actually been reformatted. So as long as you have a high fidelity speaker, you can listen and it'll have the same effectiveness. And we're looking through how do we combat that and do the same with the focus, right? Because you mean you don't have to have headphones. Correct. You can just listen to speakers. Yeah, that's interesting.

So in January, one of the things we're proud to announce is we're gonna start having Alexa, we're gonna start having Sonos, where all those platforms are coming out, really excited about that. But there's also challenges with that, because I wanna do Chrome Chromecast because people listen to us on Chromecast.

But now it's your TV screen and the speakers are different. So we're trying to figure out how to give the best experience and the best way possible, but still give it to how it uses one of these. Have you experimented with, and maybe you can't, maybe this is why, maybe if you did this then the government would step in. Have you experimented with changing people's states of mind like with emotion? Here's happy. Here's, you know, sad.

Here's whatever. Have you guys mess around with any of that? So a little bit. We've done not necessarily happy, but like our relax helps with anxiety, right? And it helps calm people down. And energize is really interesting because if you take a pretty workout, right? Do you get happy?

Yeah, because you have energy, right? I'm gonna go to the gym and crush it. And it's interesting because happiness is more of a byproduct, or sadness is a byproduct of a different mental state, right? And what's further interesting is, again, if you think of our product as a shortcut to a place that you wanna go,

we can't make you be something you don't wanna be. So if you wanna focus, and you're listening to us while you're trying to go to sleep, we're not gonna keep you up forever. It has to be in combination of what your intent is. And that's what's really nice about the new system is, you know, I'm going to, you know, it's like almost like affirmation based. And it's so true because you say, okay, I'm going to click this, I'm going to do this,

this is my intent going into it. And then that goes with the combination of the music, of what we're doing. And it has the effect. Now, have you had any users tell you that they like using it when they're having sex? Because Adam, we've talked about this. Yeah, has anybody said anything? Because they were talking about how they'll play focus,

and they'll just have a great, funny session. And, oh, it's just intense. It's like, we've put this formula together. We're Katrina and I will, we relax, we'll listen to, and we have a Bose set up in my room Yep, and we'll listen to an audio book first where we're learning and we're into it We're listening and we typically smoke a little weed while we're doing that and then we transition into brain FM And I tell you what when the focus comes on brain FM and we've and we start it's like some of the most intense sex that we've ever had

And I've told people about this and everybody that's done it has come back and say brain FM and we start, it's like some of the most intense sex that we've ever had. And I have told people about this and everybody that's done it has come back and said, you're not lying. Yeah, I've tried this formula. So that's interesting. So it comes from increased blood flow to different parts of your brain. And that's what our, and usually the brain doesn't get much blood in it. It's not true, it's not true, it's not true.

It's not true, it's not true, it's not true, it'sed. It depends on the individual in that case, right? But yeah, no, it's different. You're more probably sensitive in your case, right? Because we're putting blood flow to your brain where it's not. So, in a sense, you are focusing. Well, that's, you know. I know that I'm a very cerebral person as, as, as is. And I know that,

as I've gotten older, I, something that I've now noticed is that, you know, when you're, when you're 20 years old, that's all you want to do is have sex, because that's all that's on your mind. And you get an R age, what I start to find is I've got so many other distractions in my life that my brains going other places a lot, and it's tough for me to be very present. That formula has helped me become extremely present with my partner. So I think it's probably. Oh, I'll often you guys do it. You know, a couple of times a month. It's not like that.

Wow, so still, a couple of times a month. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, brain FM is like a staple thing that is definitely, and she uses it a lot like when she works. So she's on the computer a lot and she's's gonna do spreadsheet the numbers and shit like that. She's a project manager. And so that can get very laborious. So she'll throw that on and she uses that.

I don't use focus as much as I use the sleep stuff. The only other time that I use the focus is like, when we're, you get Netflix and chill and brain of him and bang. You get trot. There it is. There's your slow make a t-shirt. There's your 300% gain.

Yeah. Boom. So what do you, okay, I've always been curious. I hope you know, I love asking There it is. There's your slow make a t-shirt. There's your 300% gain. Yeah. Oh. So what do you, okay, I've always been curious. How, I hope you know, I love asking you questions like this because you seem to know the competitors and other people that are out there. How much different is this from, what's the headphones you use Justin Halo?

Halo, yeah. What's, do you know much about Halo, do you know much about that product? I'm not sure if I'm familiar with Halo, but there's other products that are specific. Athletes are starting to use this. And it's a really, it's like, I think a very overpriced headphone.

It's like 700 bucks, right, Justin, for using. Yeah, well, I mean, it's like, Electro, it's like these electrodes, it stimulates, like, it basically, like, it's into like a certain part of the brain that helps to kind of stimulate and high focus. It's not about the sound. Yeah, no, it's more of a, yeah, physical manual way.

That's what I'm saying is like, how do you know how that compares to that? Or if there's anything that you guys would do to pair totally different? Yeah, I think it's a little bit different. I'd have to take a look and I'd also have, there's a term for it. I can't remember the name of it, but it's magnetic something that, and I can't remember the name of it, but it's magnetic something that, and I can't remember the term of it. It sounds like comparing like an East Tim machine compared to actually flexing the muscle itself. That's why I'm asking, like if he has any idea of the comparison of the two of them.

You're not familiar with Halo then, huh? No, but I think I'll have to look at it and get back to you guys on it. But really, I mean, what's happening is our brains are electrical, so it just, the idea of, you know, our brains are outputting like electrical impulses, and if you can put electrical into the brain, I can understand how it can influence it. I'll have to take a look more, but we're doing something different,

because we're doing more of in the processing, like centers and things like that. So we do principles of, like the neural phase locking. One of those is in training as well as a 3D sound and sailing events and all these other things. And it's I'm assuming, and again, I'll have to talk to my science guy about this, but it's just two different techniques to do similar things. And maybe it's something that's more effective with this. Maybe they're competing.

I'm not really sure. That's what I was wondering is if there's some way you can combine, and I was wondering too, if you had, have you tried, or do you guys have case studies yet of athletes that use this before, sports, for folks that are working on that right now? And I'm really excited about that. So we're talking to a few of the sports teams out there,

which I can't say who, but the goal for workout, music, and unveiling that right now is local. Yeah, that'd be great. Maybe. Or yourself. Right. Come on.

They were the ones that are on the halo. So they were very forward thinking. So they'd be rad if they did. There's a few. I don't want to confirm more to them. But there's a lot of exciting things on that. And the goal for it is, you know, you know how Gatorade got its whole start? That's kind of like what we're doing too. So we either do two things either. One, we pick

the best sports team and have them stay on top or we pick, you know, some crappy team or a medium team or whatever. Yeah. Or maybe we do both. We'll see. But yeah, the whole idea is really to, you know, prime, right? So one of the really cool things that I'm also excited about, but it's more, it's kinda like part branding, but also we found some really cool effects from it is we're doing a Sonic branding. So you know, like Hulu and Netflix, they go like Dun Dun.

Yeah, so we're doing that with more of our songs. So in the coming few months, you'll start hearing like a pre-tone before a session, before a listening session. That's called sonic branding. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even know what it was called, but for sure, I knew exactly we talked about when you said that.

Oh, yeah. Like, Windows has its own little sound. Yeah, yeah. So what happens is we find that when you use that music, it could actually signal to your brain almost as a pvlonian response that you're about to hear brain FM. And even, like, it's like when you're using it right now and you're one of your favorite tracks, come on, and you go, oh, whenever this comes on,

I do all this crazy work. And you get excited before even like flushing the whole 30 minutes. And we're also able to trigger that as like a, like almost like a priming. That's interesting. Oh, wow. Are you guys primarily funded by your consumers

or do you guys have investors? So we have some money from a pre-seed and from some investors, but mostly consumers. Are you guys going through more cycles of raising money or is it now? We're going to figure that out. So it really depends on what happens in the next few months to be honest, because we may reach a point

where we don't need to actually raise. That's why I'm asking you. There's a lot of really exciting things. two months, to be honest, because we may reach a point where we don't need to actually raise. Yeah. There's a lot of really exciting things. I mean, we're talking to enterprise clients and things like that because they're approaching us, and saying, hey, all of like a ton of our employees use this, like can we get this?

So what do you mean by enterprise, like a company will say, hey, can we white label this and use it on our people people or buy like a discounted rate is what you're talking about for the group. So, not white labeling, like using a discounted rate, but also specifically things for teams. So we're still working on that right now. So basically, like, group settings. Correct.

It's still best right now with the headphones and with a certain kind of like personalization to you, but we can also use like just in the general setting because sometimes when you're in a meeting, you can't have headphones on because you have to talk to other people like this. So it's like background noise that you would have and it would be more of a normalized rate across for many people rather than personalize to you. So things like that we're chatting about. We're also chatting about different partnerships with you know other companies. Yeah, I'm just going to ask if you also chatting about different partnerships with other companies. Yeah, I was just gonna ask you,

if you could talk about any partnerships that you got going on right now. So there's a lot of really interesting ones. So some of those are some of the biometric readings, like the different kinds of wearables that are out there today. So how do we use data from that and personalize to the user?

So that's some cool stuff. I'm also talking to right now, a CBD company. The only water soluble organic CBD, and it's really crazy. Like, a lot of people, they're familiar with the THC side of things, and most people are looking for that, and these individuals are looking for CBD, and how can we help people focus better? How can we help people sleep better? How can we do this?

How can we prove it with science? And that's exactly what we're doing with music. It's really interesting. So they have this, again, water soluble, and they have a pattern on it. It's the only way you can do it. A lot of other companies, they use like nanopotroleum and different kinds of synthetics and that turns into like formaldehyde in your body and there's all these negative effects from it.

And they have like their compound is so powerful that they can actually take people that ate a brownie by accident with all these like legalizations things happening. You can put it on your skin instantly makes you sober in 30 seconds. It's amazing. Wow, that sounds crazy. Yeah, it's pretty skin it instantly makes you sober in 30 seconds. It's amazing. Wow, that sounds crazy.

Yeah, it's pretty insane. That sounds like a look into that. Have you had any interest from the medical community into your product and what you guys do? So, we have people that are doctors and they reach out to us because they prescribe this to their, or not, I can't say prescribed because we're not a prescription. They recommend it to their patients, things like that. Like hoop for what, for anxiety or ADD or...

So right now we have ADD, ADHD, anxiety, we have sleep a lot because a lot of people have PTSD and we find in like veterans and people that come back that have challenges sleeping because of those traumatic things that this isn't necessarily a treatment, but this is something that can help them sleep and just get through two treatment or improving things.

So we have a lot of people in that, and then as we go into the next phase of our grant, we're looking to go through FDA approval, ARC's classification, and building specific prescription-based things. So you can do a questionnaire, we can get your biometric greetings, and we can give you a specific version of bringing FM designed specifically to you.

Wow. So, and this is, that would be the first prescribed music or sound. I don't think there's ever been. First digital medicine. Yeah, so. It's probably still five to 10 years out, and it depends on what happens, and like you said, if the government comes in or not,

and things like that. Works too good. We'll see, but it's really exciting because we have three options. We can either be a preliminary step, so you try this before taking these other medications. It could be a combination, so now you can take less of it,

or replacement oil in general. And it's up to people and doctors and things like that to decide. It's funny, I did a Reddit and we talked about how we have the opportunity to do this, and I said replacement, I didn't say preliminary all these other things, and people got mad. Of course. I mean, just Reddit, right? But people like, you know, Adderall and Riddlein and all these other drugs have changed people's lives.

And I'm not trying to replace or dismiss or get rid of those. I'm just trying to give people another option to do it because some people that aren't prescribed, you know, Adderall, they'll take it. What do you mean some people? Some people don't want to. Yeah, some people. That's a lot of people. It's everywhere.

Now that everybody wants to take meth for the rest of their life. It's pretty, yeah, I mean, it's pretty prolific. It's very similar to cocaine and all that. And what happens usually in those scenarios is, you know, if you need to bump to like, you know, do you about your day and go around, when you're done, when you want to turn it off, you can't because you still have six hours because of how the drug works.

It's not really sustainable. Now you're taking this medication to wake up and then you're taking another medication to go sleep and then you're in this vicious cycle. We know all about that. Exactly. The main goal of the company is to give people options and to bring out the best in people, no matter who you are, no matter what language you speak, no matter what, how much money you make, and do it on demand. Have you guys done any testing on effects on neurotransmitters, like dopamine and serotonin?

Has there anything like that? Or hormone levels? I don't think so, not yet. Because that would be just from a marketing standpoint. If you could show that your, because I would assume if it's changing your state of mind and it's changing blood flow to the brain and changing brain waves, it's gonna have an effect on neurotransmitter production and or potentially hormones.

From a marketing standpoint, my God, if you could show a study that's like, hey, we boost it with, you know, boost growth hormone by 50% or dopamine, I mean, that would be a fucking blockbuster. Yeah, I think right now just currently with a scale of who we are, most of our, you know, grant and things like that, just science is expensive. So we choose to be science first, but sometimes it's challenging because if we're going to be science first, but sometimes it's challenging because if we're going to be science first, we have to conduct science. It takes a lot of time too, a lot of money.

Yes, a lot of time and a lot of money. So that's one of the reasons why, you know, come on here and share because the more we can grow, the more we can invest in science and ultimately make it a good job. On average, how long do these studies take to do and how much do they typically cost? So the science study that we have right now, I believe we've been doing it for a year, and it's cost about a quarter of a million dollars. See that? That's insane.

And on average, sometimes these things are more, far more than that, half a million or a million dollars. Yeah, I mean, just through like FDA approval, I think. Oh, that's forget that. It's like two million dollars, you know? At least. Yeah, so we have options, right? We either we can, you know, raise money and, and, you know, do it and go like way, like, you know,

ball to the wall kind of thing. Or we can do it the right way. And I mean, that's not, that's the wrong way. But really, we can do it in a way that we, I don't know, already know that's going to be there. No, as a company, how do you protect yourself from somebody else not coming and copying what you're doing? I was just going to ask that.

So we have patents. How do you patent sounds? I don't understand how that works. So we don't patent sounds. We patent the process of creating sounds. Oh, kind of like writing music, in a sense, right? Like if you write a song, like I can't turn around and use Jay-Z's song, is it like that?

Kind of. So let's change it from music to like cars. So it's like a patent and process, or like tires, let's say, in the car. So it's a patent and process on how to blow up a tire faster than anyone else, you know? And obviously this is like extreme metaphor, but it's more of the AI is padded.

The neural phase locking is padded. The things that create certain kinds of characteristics, how we infuse things, how we build models of the brain and protocol, something like that, that's all padded. And we have more pads. And as we learn more, we're pad you know, patterning more, you know. So we have this really cool thing we're experimenting right now with like forward

masking of sound. So we can play tones that would actually, it makes it so that you can't hear things like a hundred milliseconds in the future, right? And it doesn't make you deaf, you just hear those same tones again, it's like a reverberation. And it's really interesting, because like the premise could be you're on an airplane and that's

why we're investing to mask all sounds. So it's not like sound canceling headphones where you can kind of hear it. It's like it is quite except what you want to hear. And that's really interesting we're exciting about. But that's probably again like two, three years ago. Do you see, you know, in the future, any involvement in entertainment or like movie soundtrack or, you know, like TV, anything like that, like, peak or as interest.

Yeah, yeah, that's something we can totally do. I mean, right now, because it's in the process of how to make music, and it's made, you know, step-by-step with with math and things like that. It just comes down to the computers and algorithms that we have. So right now we can't do it if there's speech or things like that.

But if we have enough AI and enough build systems, we could probably take a song apart, put our music on top of it or build into it and then put the speech back into it or whatever. So we're looking through that, but really right now, my and Brain If M's real goal is helping people and getting people into a certain state. And that's more like entertainment. So monumental goal right now, by itself.

Yeah, so that's down the road. It's an opportunity that we have, but I'd rather optimize people first and then entertain them later. Yeah. What have been some of the biggest hurdles that you've had to overcome since you've come on a CEO of a company? Good question. I think there is basically building a team, building a team that can scale with the same vision is important. How many staff do you guys have now? So we have, I believe it's 12 full-time. Okay. Yeah.

There was a point where we had a little bit more than this and we actually brought them, you know, went from like 15 and we brought them back and it wasn't because, you know, we're running on money, anything. It was more so because they had a different vision for what the company was going to be. And I think it's super important that we're all, especially the level where we have, is like the trajectory. If you're in a plane and you do 3% difference from New York to here, you're gonna end up in LA.

So it's really important to get people, I think, that are just as passionate. Like right now, I work like a hundred hours a week, and I love every single second of it, because I just know what work capable of. And, you know, I don't make everyone work. Everyone works for me like 40 hours a week. It's not the same, I don't have the same expectations. But I do want people to know what we are building,

and why this matters, because if we don't do this, someone else eventually will figure this out, right? And the only person that I know is like Adam and I, we're so about like this is a tool to help like elevate humanity. It's not a tool to make like a ton of money. We're gonna build a business that's gonna be, you know, successful and it's gonna grow

and it's gonna be able to do a lot of amazing things. But the main effect of growing is to do more research, to discover more things. We're learning things about the brain, we're like, oh my god, we didn't know that it was possible, that's cool. And it's really like the frontier of how do we build a business, how do we help people, and how do we discover more about ourselves. I think they say, we know more about the solar system in space than we do to the deepest oceans and our own brains.

And that's the exciting part. Since you came on board, what has been the most surprising or amazing thing that you've found? That's good. I think the different uses for brain FM and what people are doing So like you know your specific use right? And also like other people like so some people they'll use focus and then they actually use nap And they'll they'll use that for like a break and then these focus again And it's like a almost like a Pomodoric technique and they say that they can go to higher level of focus

Oh, wow. Yeah, so that's fun. I think just the outpouring of support is always very interesting. Like the other day, I did the update email, I sent out to everyone, and it's just, I reformatted it. So now they all come from me. And I was like, hey, if you guys have any suggestions, stuff, like, please email me back.

And I got like 500 responses and they're like, this, this, this, you know, we think, and a lot of people just offer their time for free. Like the sonos thing that we're launching, we're not, like it wasn't in our budget this year to build it, so we had two consumers that will bid this for you. They're building it for free for us.

Wow. Because they've so, they want it so much. And I think that it's really it's really fun because you know it's not it's not just the business. It's something that it's a community that we're starting to have and people are like, oh wow this can help. This is and they see you know what we're trying to do. It's not just again building a business. It's like we're building a business to help change the world, you know. But why are you so driven to help people? Was that come from for you?

Personally, so I think I shared with you guys before, so I'm Secretary Blackbel. I grew up teaching people. And I think that the connection for me at a very young age to be able to see like a spark, like to be able to see when someone gets it, it's such an amazing thing. Cause like at the end of the day, a core belief system for humanity, what do we want? We want to feel accomplishment.

We want to feel like purpose. We want to feel just being good at things, right? And I saw that at a very young age that when I can help someone learn that they're really good at something, your confidence just peaks. And I think brain FM can do that too. So now for you to get through the work you need to do, like we have a ton of people that use this that are entrepreneurs. And it's really interesting because, you know, they're trying to solve a problem to either solve a problem to make something their lives better but also make other lives better.

I think that for while building brain FM, not only we solving a problem of focus but we're helping other people solve their problems. I get communication from people all the time. Without your company, I want to be able to create my own company. And my own company does X, Y, and Z. And that's the thing that fills me. We're like a backbone for a lot of people. Fascinating.

Well, your product's easy to sell. When we bring up so organically, because we all use it still, I mean, I use it on constantly. Yeah, I use it every single, I probably use it four or five days a week, I would say. I like the meditation one and then the focus those are my two favorites, so. So we're building up meditation right now.

Okay, so we've been spending a lot of time on building new focus products, right? Because that's where our grants is, we're learning a lot of science. But now we're doubling back onto our meditation, so we're having guided and unguided. We're working with a few of the big companies out there or having conversations.

So they're going to have actual practitioners of meditation that are going to be guiding you through experiences, which I'm super pumped about. And then we're building out better sleep experiences for you. So now that we can do it on speakers, now you can pick like, okay, what is the exact tone you want? I think Doug was saying earlier that he likes what, rain or rain?

Yeah, right. So I think that's great, but some people, they really like crickets, and building out all the soundscapes and things like that. So I'm super excited for that. I'm super excited for this brand new favorite system and natural language and all the integration we're gonna have. We got a lot of other things down the road,

but you know, I'm keeping it a little bit. You'll tell us off there, right? Yeah, sure. Well, thanks, man. Thanks for coming down, bro. Yeah, my pleasure. It's always a pleasure.

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