Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - The Story Behind the Skincare Brand That Changed What Men Put on Their Face | Mind Pump

Episode Date: August 11, 2026

In this episode the guys sit down with Jared Pobre, founder and CEO of Caldera Lab, to tell the full origin story of how he created a new category of skincare for men. Jared shares how moving to Jackson Hole at 40 with a new baby wrecked his skin and led him to use his wife's products — and why that sparked the idea to build a premium natural skincare line specifically formulated for men's thicker, oilier, testosterone-managed skin. He breaks down the product development process including wild harvesting survivor plants from the Wyoming wilderness, running clinical trials before launching, why they use exosomes as a delivery system, and why natural actives that work with your skin's microbiome beat harsh retinol-based products every time. The guys share how they started working with Caldera Lab near the beginning — Adam's psoriasis, Justin's dry skin and Sal's oily skin all responding the same way — and why their audience became some of Caldera's highest value customers. Jared also reveals that Caldera is now Nordstrom's number two men's brand just months after launch, has nearly 70% customer retention, and is growing high double digits this year.   Caldera Lab: https://calderalab.com/mindpump Code: MINDPUMP20 for 20% off your first order.   GUEST LINKS   Jared Pobre — LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredpobre Caldera Lab: https://calderalab.com Instagram: @calderalab   LINKS   Mind Pump Store: https://mindpumpstore.com Maps Fitness Products: https://mapsfitnessproducts.com Instagram: @mindpumpmedia   0:00 - Intro 1:03 - Why Jared started a skincare brand for men — Jackson Hole, turning 40 and a new baby 3:05 - How he saw the early signs of men caring about skincare before anyone else did 5:42 - Why men's skin is fundamentally different — 25% thicker, twice as oily, managed by testosterone 6:42 - Why he refused to copy women's formulas and started from scratch with actives 8:48 - How the skincare industry works — the dirty secret of white-labeling and brand shortcuts 10:45 - Why going all natural is far more complicated and expensive than chemical formulations 13:06 - Why every men's skincare brand before Caldera Lab failed — and why that was a green light 15:07 - How Caldera launched in January 2019 with 10,000 units and immediately started selling 17:47 - Customer loyalty nearly at 70% and why men are the most loyal customers once you win them 21:12 - How Adam found Caldera Lab, how he got Justin and Sal to try it and what happened 28:58 - How Mind Pump validated Caldera's core thesis that the longevity and wellness market was the customer 30:54 - The skin microbiome — why skin health reflects gut health, liver health and hormone health 35:05 - The Good — wild harvested survivor plants from Wyoming, botanists and two years of development 38:40 - Clinical trials: 40+ strangers, third party labs, 60-90 days and holding their breath for the results 40:31 - How exosomes work as a delivery system and why The Great and Hydro Layer were built for normal to oily skin 43:38 - Why Caldera stays away from retinol and why natural actives work better for most men's skin 44:48 - Adam's psoriasis, Sal's microbiome take and why Justin's wife switched to Caldera permanently 49:05 - What's next — staying in their lane, deodorant coming, no supplements and the Nordstrom story

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump with your hosts. Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded Fitness, Health, and Entertainment Podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode, we had the CEO of Caldera Lab on the podcast. So Caldera Lab is really innovating in the skincare market.

First off, they're one of the top skin care companies. for men. I know that was a place nobody wanted to go. Well, they did and they crushed it. Their products are natural and they make your skin healthier. So we wanted them on the show to talk about the history behind this company. Why target men? Why the name and how does their stuff actually work? So we know you're going to love this episode. And of course, it's brought to you by Caldera Lab. And if you go through our link, you'll get 20% off. Go to calderaeralab.com slash mind pump. Use the code mind pump 20 to get the 20% off. All right, real quick, if you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstore.com.

I'm talking right now, hit pause, head on over to mindpump store.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Jared, welcome the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So, founder of Caldera Lab, and I've been mean to ask you this. So it feels like you guys have created a, like, new category of skincare.

You went after an audience that I don't think anybody wanted to touch in skin care. Like what gave you the idea? And by the way, you guys are crushing you and do a good job. So you obviously, your hunch was right. But what made you want to go for skin care for men? Like, how did that all start? Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. So I've never built a physical product before as a business entrepreneur.

I was an entrepreneur and am an entrepreneur for most of my career. I start off in the ad tech industry down in Southern California a couple years out of college and about 15 years into that had an opportunity to sell a portion of the business and take some time off and that's when my wife and I with a new baby

started living in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And living in that high alpine climate if you were going up to Tahoe and whatnot, your hands start to get really dry and ashy, your skin starts to dry out, your lips, a lot of stuff, started to happen to me. And I was, you know, just turning 40 new baby, starting to see the signs of aging and getting really chafed, all this stuff. The products I had been historically using for men, for me, that for my 20s and 30s, just stopped working

entirely and started to make my skin even worse. So very cliche, started using some my wife's products. And there was like one or two that just transformed. my skin. And I was like, wow, like how, this is incredible, you know, why doesn't this exist for men? And that's, that's how it all kind of kicked it off from that point forward. So you're like, okay, guys need this, but also guys don't are not, historically, don't care about skin care. How do we like make them care about this? Yeah, did you think about that? Were you like, well, dudes don't really, like, how am I to sell this to guys? You know, interestingly, I started to see a trend, you know, like I mentioned, just turned 40 of my friends starting to use more skincare products, right?

Including myself and people in Jackson Hole, guys who are like rugged, you know, like mountaineers, like hardcore back country skiers and stuff like that, you know. Surprisingly, you know, they'd tell me, oh yeah, I was using this one product. I'm like, I'm using the same one, you know. Interesting. So it started clicking. started clicking. Wait a minute, there are, there are men who are using skincare products. Maybe it's not in mass, but I saw the vision at some point, there's going to be an inflection point when it does happen where men are going to be more of a consumer in this category. That was the long-term vision.

You think, like, how huge the Jackson Hole move had to be? So for me, personally, this is before meeting color, I didn't even realize, I was, I had that issue until experiencing going to like Reno and Lake Tahoe and living in California near the coast and getting a little bit older. Didn't notice it as a kid. For some reason, as I got into my late 30s, started to notice like, oh, my God, when I go over here, as much as I love going to Tahoe, just my lips start cracking and my skin gets certain dry. And I have psoriasis now. And so that flares up. So had you not made that move, do you think you make that?

Do you think you see that? Do you think you even notice the difference in your skin? Were you noticing it even in California? Not as bad, you know, because, you know, I was living by the ocean. Yeah. You know, so. Which is nice. Had the nice moisture in the air.

But once I got into that high elevation, it just amplified things exponentially. It's like being out in the desert in Palm Springs and stuff. Yeah. It's dry as well. You know, you dry out quite quickly. And so that really took my skin health to. a different place that I'd never experienced before. And, you know, skin is like that, it's like that one, you know, thing that visibly when, when you see someone or they see you, if your skin's not

healthy, that's the kind of first thing that you, you know, identifies, you know, that person looks a little tired or there, there's something going on there, you know? And so for me, you know, when I started experiencing these things and I was able to solve them with some of the products for my wife, that inspired us. Or like, why doesn't these types of products exist for men? And the thing was that, you know, there are ingredients that work better for men's skin because men's skin is 25% thicker.

It's two times more oilier, and it's managed by testosterone, right? So, you know, there's a question of, well, why don't just use women's skin care, right? well, that's built for women's skin. Our skin is different. And that's what really inspired me to dive in deeper and start learning about how to really build product

for a men's skin profile. So that first one that you tried that was a woman's product and you already noticed it started to help. How much is your formulation different from that? Because I imagine that was probably the base. You're like, okay, there's something here that this is kind of working. Yeah.

How do I improve on that? How did that process look like? Great question. So what we did is we started to analyze and look at and research all the different actives out there. The actives are the ingredients that actually have, that make a difference on the skin. Actually, they're like the supplements, the vitamins for your skin. Okay.

And there are our actives that have clinical data and research around male skin, male hair, male endocrinology. And so we started to zero in and focus on. those, right, that have clinical data that actually improve your skin quality. And that's kind of where the whole journey started to like unlock one door after another that, oh, wow, you can actually build a whole formula tailored around men's skin. And this hadn't been done from what we researched before. Everything was kind of unisex or is mostly like women's brands or women's formulas that were repurposed for men with different scent profiles. That's what was happening in the men's

skincare category at the time, you know? You know, in the, in the skincare industry, it's interesting because I think it's a lot like the supplement industry. You can go to these co-manufacturers. You can show up and you're like, hey, I'm this new brand. You know, I'm really good at marketing. I want to build a new, you know, supplement or skincare brand, right? And they'll, they'll show you a menu.

Here's your cleansers. Here's your moisturizers. Here's your other products. And then you can, you can put this scent in here. You like this scent? Okay, go go to a branding agency, come back and select your packaging. We'll put this all in there. and you'll be in business in six months.

Wow. And that exists. That existed. Isn't it like the clone and perfume game like the same way too? Isn't a lot of stuff like that? I think, supplements are like that. He's right about something.

Yeah. I mean, I think perfume is like owned by like one like one major conglomerate owns like most all the scents. And then all these fancy brands just put their logo on that scent. And it's like there's not like this. And they sell it like it's this crazy formulation that they did. That's right.

So I got to give you a little pushback because my wife stopped using her women's skin care stuff and she steals my Caldera Lab stuff. Nice. She likes it way more than the other stuff. So it's, although it's formulated for men, it's also different because when I look at women's products, when I look at the ingredients,

your stuff is, and this is such a bastardized term, it's natural. There's a lot of natural ingredients. Whereas the other products are like very like chemical-based type stuff. Is that like a big deal for you guys to make sure that, okay. Huge deal. Now, that was from inception.

Back when we started to dive into this category, what was happening in the women's category, there was this clean movement. You know, people were stepping away from toxic skincare, toxic home products, things of that nature. We just had a baby, my wife, went super into it. And that was always paramount to us

to have a product line that came from natural ingredients, but high quality natural ingredients, and there are ingredients that are naturally derived that have like really high quality, almost medical grade performance, right? And those are kind of the actives. And so we've always built our products with science and nature as a combination, right?

That's the ethos of how we select our ingredients and build our formulations. So clean now and, you know, toxic-free, that is kind of the table steak. right. In Europe, there's like 1,200 ingredients banned, right? Here. Better not. Banned here. They're about 20, you know. Wow. And so, you know, historically, there's all these, you know, brands and products that

had a lot of these things that were maybe not so good for you, you know, and we're finding these out, you know, now with people getting sick and whatnot. Now, how much, how much more difficult and or expensive is it to go the whole natural than to just jump on the bandwagon and throw some of the... It's a lot more complicated, right? Because, you know, the stuff that is chemically made, right? It is, it's made in a lab, right? It's very, they produce it very easily,

and it can combine well with other chemicals. When you have naturally derived products or natural ingredients, right? They have to be tested with the other ingredients for stability and irritancy, and things of that nature. Right. I mean, all products do, generally,

but when they're natural-based, right, they just have a little bit more of potential to, you know, interact with another ingredient, not the way that you intended it. Right. As far mixing, the smell of it, the tech, like I can see how, oh, these two great natural things

are supposed to be good for your skin, but boy, they just don't. They don't work together. Now, did you run into that a lot? Did you run into like, oh, I really want this in it, but it's just, Yeah, so, you know, when we kick this thing off, we started reaching out to the top scientists, top formulators, top green chemists in the industry, telling them about our vision of wanting to create a high performance premium skincare brand for men. And a lot of them, they all loved it.

They all said we were crazy at the same time. And just because, you know, from their experience, the industry wasn't ready yet, right? And some of the brands before us just failed. You know, pretty much every male celebrity skincare brand out there before us didn't make it, you know. And so we said, you know, that's a great place to be. You know, if someone tells you don't go there in business, you probably want to look deeper. It's open water. It's essentially.

Yeah. Yeah. It's green pastures there. Yeah. So, in fact, so that's actually one of the questions I was going to ask it because you're doing this and you're like, cool, less competitors. However, everybody seems to fail in this area. So a big part of this, I know this for a fact, but I'd like to ask you, was going to be like, how do we reach this audience? How do we get men to consider skin care products when historically it just hasn't worked?

No matter what football player or athlete or whatever has presented it. So you must have looked at this and said, okay, how are we going to approach this and connect with men? And what did that look like? Yeah. So, you know, I, I've built this business a lot around my own personal journey and those of the people and my friends around me. You know, as I mentioned, as they started getting older, my skin started to suffer. You know, I started investing more and more into nutrition, into fitness and wellness, right?

Longevity, taking care of myself and self-care being a big part of that, right? As we've brought this brand to market and we've identified a group of customers and a lot of them are your customers, right, who are into those same things, right? We started tapping into a self-optimization movement, right? This longevity movement, this fitness movement, this kind of wellness, you know, category, right? That's it's a consumer shift, right? Totally. It's a consumer shift. Did you see it or did you like kind of feel?

feel it as it was happening. Was it like something like you for a little bit of both. I knew, you know, from myself and those around me, it's like, you know, I have friends who kind of went the other path, you know, don't work out, eat like shit, you know, can't care, you know, don't really think twice about, you know, their wellness overall, right? And they're great. They love what they're doing, right? And then I have other friends like myself who are very conscious about, you know, how we

show up every day and what we put in our body and how we train and how we, you know, think about everything that is our whole wellness optimization stack, right? And so seeing that movement take place and starting to tap into that advertising-wise, right, on social, right, and through podcasts and whatnot, tapping into where those customers out there are consuming their content and then showing up with ads that, you know, explain our ethos of a brand. That skincare is also about skin health and your overall health. tapping into that movement. That's where we, I think we hit a chord with our consumers. When did you guys hit the market?

What year? So we launched in 2019. We started product development in 2017. So we worked on one product for almost two years. And then we did an actual clinical trial to validate the performance. And then we launched in January of 2019. Okay. So we're partners early.

What was the, we'll get there because I want to ask that. But what was, what percentage of the skin care market? was men when you started? Because you see the, like, what did it look like? Like, how big of a sliver? You know, I think it was very, it was low single digits.

That's almost non-existent. Yeah, yeah, low single digits for premium skincare for men. Our first product that we launched, the good, which is our hero skew, it's $110. That's the other part that I thought was. I mean, about a double leap. It's like, get the double leap right there. It's like, I got to convince dudes. And I'm going to make $110 bucks.

Yeah. And that's why everyone said we were crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, and this is how you know you did a great job because we've worked with, we've, I've seen this with a couple companies, not very many, where they come out with a product. Everybody says crazy.

And then it does so well, it creates a new market. I feel like you guys have done that. Like how, do we know what the stats are now on what percentage of the skincare market? Has it changed since 2019? It's been growing double jidges. been growing double digits. I don't know the exact, I haven't looked at the recent data,

but our business is growing exponentially. Okay. And so 98% of our customers, you know, in our surveys, I'd say they're male customers. And we look at our customer list and this is all met,

and they're buying for themselves. So the movement is here. Was it right out the gates or was it a slow? No. So when we launched, you know, like if we were going to be sitting in a warehouse of 10,000 of these things, right? And we only ordered 10,000 because, you know, that was kind of the minimum order,

and we didn't want to, like, you know, be too aggressive, launched. And day one, we started selling. We started selling. And, you know, we started ramping and ramping. Every month was bigger than the next. And by the time from January, when we got through summer, we started to see our inventory was really depleting and people repeat purchasing. and we're like, shit, maybe this is a real business.

We'll have to place another purchase order. Just place another order. Immediately we started to get feedback. You know, love your product. I use a cleanser. I use a moisturizer. Can you bring those out to market as well, you know? And when we started to get that feedback loop coming in,

that was I think the moment that we said, okay, we have confidence in moving forward, and really starting to grow and build this thing. Your customer retention is crazy. Yes. Okay, because I'd love to, Adam, you've got to share how we started working with them. Well, I will get there too, but I want to, so you had an advertising background before this. Correct?

I did, but that was on the B to B side. Okay. So never. Totally different. Yeah. Yeah. Totally different, but still have some. You understand marketing.

Yes. Yeah. So you have a decent foundation. I mean, to the point where. I mean, I'm so curious to even how you branded. Like the brand is beautiful. It's obviously, did you hire that out? Did you figure that out yourself?

How many reiterations were there to like what this should look like? Did you spend a lot of time on that? How much did you have to spend before you could even see if there was a market for it? So were you deep underwater financially before you even went out there? Like, what did that look like? So a lot of questions, but all good ones. Okay. So researched a lot about the industry early on.

Like, you know, who are the branding companies for these brands, you know, these creative agencies that you go to like with an idea and then they create your brand, your packaging and things of that nature, you know, who are the PR agencies, who are the contract manufacturers, who are the, you know, formulators? So research all these things. And then, you know, the, competition that exists in men, the women's category, built all that research and then decided to design a plan, a strategy, right? Coming up with the name, you know, the location where the business

is going to be founded, you know, what's our first product, you know, what's the cogs, all those things, right? And so, you know, cost-wise, yeah, I had to invest a lot of money in this company initially to get it off the ground, to design the brand, to do the packaging, to make that first M.OQ order, you know, of 10,000 units, right? And then build the website, you know, put together a small team of, you know, product development specialists and, in e-commerce, and then launch, right? So it takes a little bit, you know, and I didn't have any experience. So yes, I understood the ecosystem of advertising and how things are created. Yeah. But it was entirely new. And it was a challenge. It was an exciting challenge because moving from, you know, ad tech into

consumer is a completely different beast in many ways. Sure. You're dealing with real customers, right? And those real customers, if they don't repurchase, you're dead in the water. Yes. You know, and, you know, I think what set us apart, when I know what set us apart is our product development.

So, you know, going back to that, you know, idea of going to a contract manufacturer, they have these formulas, you can just buy them, you get exclusivity to them, whatever. Put a cent into them, you're in market with your new men's skin care business. That also happened, that happened in the women's side as well. So the brands that we identified in the women's category that were doing really interesting work,

we're doing all custom formulation, right? So they're starting from scratch, right, with their own briefs and their ingredient selections, and then you iterate and iterate and iterate, you test through clinical trials and things of that nature, and then you go to market. It's a long time. It's like two to three years to bring a product out to market. There's a lot of risk. What if it doesn't work once you launch it?

It has stability issues. all those things, right? You just wasted all that time versus that whole fail-fast mentality. So we took the long, hard way approach of product development, but that's the only way that we've identified you can build really, like,

interesting formulas that actually have efficacy and get repeat purchases. Yeah. And that's been our moat is our product development. And then we went even further recently with that, you know, you got, you know, proprietary formulas, right, with existing ingredients that you can buy,

from like top, you know, ingredient suppliers, you know, peptides and exosomes and all those things, right? Yeah. We actually went to the biotech category where we started working on building our own proprietary ingredients with the top labs in Europe, right? So, you know, the exosome category is the one that we focus in most recently. So, you know, product development for us is what really has separated us and has allowed, enabled us to build a brand, get into market, and grow year over year, quarter over quarter, become profitable, and then start to hit the wave that we're hitting now, right, where word of mouth, you know, our whole distribution channel is working, or we just went into Nordstrom's, you know, you know, we launched that in May.

Awesome. And now we've even, you know, shared that we're the number two men's brand, you know. I don't know if I can say that. So, okay, so the other thing that, because all. All that's important for sure because, I mean, customer focused, they get the product, they love the product, they tell that's one of the best ways to build and lay a foundation. But the other thing that I think entrepreneurs just, they miss so much is that I don't care if you have the best product in the world getting in the hands of thousands of people to go test and fall in love with it to go tell thousands more people. So did you have a, you know, at that time, did you have a social media or a podcast strategy? like how are you going to get this in the hands?

I've got this awesome product. You know you're going to win there. Of people who aren't even interested. Everybody that's your friend, your circle. So 100 people maybe, right? They're telling you how awesome it is. Yeah.

But 100 people doesn't build a multimillion dollar business. Right. So what's the strategy of how do I get this out to everybody? Yeah. So it was a lot of fail and learn. Okay. You know, it was like, yeah, we, you know, we have our website. Okay.

Great. You know, social account. That's, that's, you need that for sure. Right. go and get a meta account and start advertising, right? Did that to try that on our own. Then we, like, okay, we're not doing it so well. So what's hire an agency, you know, for growth marketing, right?

It's what's, you know, hire some consultants to help us, like, think through how to, like, build a growth funnel, right? How to build ads, how to build landing pages, right? How to think about this whole growth funnel, you know, the top of funnel, mid funnel, low, like all these things that, you know, exist in, D to C marketing, we didn't have any experience in, you know, and or very little, right, with the team I put together. And so every year we got a little bit better, a little bit smarter. And we went from one agency to the next and finally I built an in-house team. And that was tough.

That was tough. We, you know, that was almost, you know, seven years ago probably, right? And, you know, six years ago. And that was when we really started to see. progress take place is when we started to build our in-house team and learn how to how to do all those things internally. Isn't it funny that I have a part of a founders group with a lot of successful founders and one of the common themes we were just all together not that long ago in Miami that we all shared all of us that have been doing this for 10 plus years is that turning point. We all hired all

these agencies. We all had stories of this one, that one, this one, and all the learning experiences. And then eventually when it all came together was when we built it in-house. Because, you know, what do you think that is? You think it's, nobody's ever going to, you know, love your child the way you do. And, you know, like, yeah, it's just, no one's going to know your voice and brand as well as you, right? Yeah, I feel, I feel the same way. What was, so you do, you build it all in house. By the way, too, just to give you some, some, some, some, flowers. We use the ads that you guys make of us. So your white listing ads, you run of us. We try and teach all the other partners how well you guys do that. We have to coach a lot of

other partners on like how you take the content that we make when we talk about our partners and brands that we love and make ads out of it. And whoever's doing that on your team does a phenomenal job. Does such a good job that we use them as the example of like you guys need to figure this out because we don't do it for them. We literally just do what we do, which is talk about the brand that we love. They know how to chop it, piece it together and make it a great out of it. You know, it's cool about that is, you know, the team that we built, they didn't, you know, they didn't come from like the top brands and stuff, you know.

The team that I built were very talented, smart, young professionals earlier in their career, right? who you saw had a really high upside potential, and they've developed those skills in-house with our brand, right? And they've become a part of our brand. They know it inside now. They are the brand. That makes sense. Yeah, it's such a good question because, well,

there's no question how good your products are. Your repurchase rate or loyalty has got to be through the roof. And I know this because I have a lot of fans. I have a big family, come from a big Italian family. There's a lot of male cousins. There's like nine of us that grew up together all the same age. And once a year we do a Christmas party for Mind Pump. And so we'll invite them.

And every guest that we invite to this Christmas party, we give them like a little goody bag that includes like some gifts and stuff. And we've put in Caldera Lab products in there. And now my cousins, no interest in skincare. Zero. And these are dudes that wash their face with like, you know, dish soap. Like they could care less. every single one of them is a regular customer.

Yeah, because they used it once and they're like, oh my God, this stuff is incredible. Yes. So your loyalty, I mean, can you share what that looks like? Because it's got to be through the roof. Yeah, we're at the high, high mark. So for a consumer brand, anything like over 30, 40% is decent. We're at the almost 70%.

That's crazy. That's crazy. Wow. Are men typically loyal like that with products? or is that even a harder market to get? I mean, I've heard men are loyal. I'm loyal. You know, once I buy, you know, shoes or clothes or any, you know, brands that I enjoy that work for me, I stick with them, you know.

So I know that. We've always heard that. But yeah, our customers are super loyal. That's an interesting question. I wonder that comparing men and women, because women typically are better customers, right? They're buyers. They're consumers. They're consumers.

But I bet once you win a guy over, we're probably more loyal to a brand. Like we're, I'm so that way with everything. I find a sandwich plate, the same damn sandwich. Every time. Yeah. I never leave. My wife hates it. She's like, you want to go back to the same restaurant over and over.

Yeah, it's boring. There's something to be said about once you win that customer over, like this, they're probably. Okay, Adam, I want you to tell them how we all, we started working with them. Well, yeah, that we, how long has it been? It has. So, do you remember what year? Because it had it been pretty close to when you guys were launched. Were we your first podcast you ever worked with?

I think so. I think we did a few podcasts within a short period of time. Within a 30-day mix, I think you guys were one of four or five. Yeah. And I remember when it came across myself, and I actually don't know if Katrina was helping me this time. It was all the way back to Taylor. But I've always ran the partnership side. And typically the way this looks is I do a lot of negotiating, talking to the partners.

If I think it's something that's even worth bringing to these guys, I'll bring it over to them and say, hey, here's a company that wants to work with it, try it out, see what you guys like. And I had got it. And I'm interested. Of the four of us, I'm probably, maybe I'd include Doug in there too,

interested in more of this stuff, right? They tease me of being the more feminine and one out of all of us, right? So I care about how I look. I care of that stuff, right? Yeah, Justin washes faith gasoline. Just their style doesn't do anything.

And so I started using it. I have psoriasis. And so, and I'm very anti all the steroid creams They try and give you something like that. And you got sensitive skin. And I have very sensitive skin. And, man, it's like instantly I saw a difference.

And I loved it. And I was like, man, I really like this. But I remember going, shit, these guys are knuck. Neither one of these knuckleheads use anything like this. And so I bring it to them. And I said, hey, I really like this. I liked this brand. I liked everything about your branding, your website.

I saw obviously love the product. And I said, let's just try. this. And I don't even remember what I originally pitched you guys on advertising because I think I believe I was like, I'm going to just give them a really low price because I don't want to fail you. I don't want to like, because it could be flat.

And convinced the guys to at least try it. And I'm pretty sure it took off really, really well. We were sold. I'll tell you what sold me. So I'm a big science guy. So I looked at some of the ingredients and I'm like, this is interesting. For me, I thought this is really good for the microbiome

of the skin. That's where I came from. That's correct. Because I know that the skin, microbiome the skin is very important. A lot of people don't realize that there's a microbiome on your skin. And, you know, you had something earlier about how your skin is one of the first things people notice. Well, that's because the skin shows, it displays a lot about your health. Gut health issues will show up on your skin. Liver issues will show up in your skin. Even issues with blood lipids will show up on your skin. So that kind of got me interested. But what sold me was you couldn't get two guys with more different skin than Justin and I.

Yeah. Like, he's dry and ashy. I'm oily and dark. Okay. And how can we have the similar results? We used the, I think it was the good. Yeah. That's the serum.

Yeah. And both of us were like, like, I'm like, oh, it's going to make my face super oily. No, it's like, balance it out. This guy puts it on and looks, and we're just both like, I think we're, I think we're, I think we're, I think we're to use this, you know? And so we were just totally sold. Yep. From that point.

I also think that's part of it, too. is, and I believe this in the supplement market too. The supplements that do the best and show are when people can feel it right away. Right. So if it was like one of those products where it's like, use this for 30 days and we promise your skin will be better

and it's like, you know, what dude is going to do this every day? But it's like you do it one time and you can kind of feel and see the difference right away. And so something that is like, okay, this is cool. And so yeah, it was a bit of twisting the arm

to get them to try. They were open. So it was funny. Yeah. And so they were like, they were open to it. But then the response that we got from our audience was just incredible. Were we, were we a big part of that initial push to kind of get into that audience? Did that make a big difference?

Yeah. That opened our eyes big time. Okay. That your type of audience, you know, people who are into self-optimization, into wellness, longevity, into fitness, right? That there is a customer base out there for us, right? And we tapped into that through your podcast, it validated what we assume was going to be a really strong customer base. And now it's just been, you know, pure chemistry.

Yeah. It's been, you know, an incredible relationship. And your customers are some of our highest value customers. You know, I imagine, too, because it is such a perfect marriage when you think about the storyline of what you did and what you try to do by creating a new market. What happens when this is similar to what's happening, even in the peptide space and why we do really well for those companies, is there's a bit of an education process that you need, right? Like trying to educate men on why this is good for them,

the microbiome of the skin. I understand that. This is some of the things that I think that Sal, that we do on the podcast so well. Because getting them, and then once you convince them to try it, you deliver on the product. So it's like,

we do a really good job of explaining like, why this is so good, how this is it will work, and then when you deliver on the back end of, oh, it's a hell of a product. It's just this win-win. And it's been an incredible thing to watch. And we joke about it all the time about like,

who would have ever thought that we would have a skin product is probably one of our number of our- I don't think it worked if it was just aesthetic marketing. No, not at all. Yeah, I think the whole natural and health angle for men, like that clicks because it's like, okay, this is like functionally good for me. Like my skin benefits.

from this as opposed to being just like, oh, I'm going to look youthful. I don't know a lot of dudes that talk like that. I got to say, though, it's just the weirdest thing. I've done a few ads for you guys, and they're true. They're honest. I've had people come up to me in the gym, dudes, and they've commented on my skin, which is very strange, I've ever grown man. But it's happened like four times.

Yeah. And I immediately, I'm like, oh, well, that's a company that I work with, Kelton. In fact, I've had people stop me and asked me if I was a spokesperson for you guys. because the ads you run. I actually have a podcast that I run. So talk a little bit about some of the science that goes in to the products and the ingredients. The first product you have was that was that the good? Was that the first one?

Yeah. Okay. So what went into that or what's in that that that makes it work so well? And let's kind of go through some of the different ones that you have now. Yeah. Yeah. So the good. So being in Jackson, this is a cool story, right?

early on my wife and I started to meet with local botanus. Botanus somebody who studies plants. Yeah. I bet you get great ones out there. You probably have some incredible botanists out in that. Incredible botanist. Ethno botanist is somebody who studies how humans work with plants for medicinal purposes and things in nature, that nature. So we had an idea of, you know, could we find plants in the region that? that had skin care healing properties that we could use in our products.

And working with the botanists there in Jackson Hole in the Mountain West, we identified several plants, fireweed, elderberry, and several others, you know, that we started to test with the labs that we were talking about with. And so with the green scientists that we worked with and the formulators that had, you know, that were biologists and all these really exciting academics and skincare experts. We put together like an ingredient list

of over 2,000 ingredients. Oh gosh. You know, to evaluate and to think about, right? And with the intent to try and bring in some of these plants from Jackson Hole in the region. And the reason why is these plants

that live up there in that region, they're called survivor plants, right? There's survivor plants because they live in really harsh conditions. They go away in the dormant in the winter, and they come back very vibrant in the summer, and they're full of antioxidants. Because it protects them from the – this is funny because you grow plants and you want to make them really strong with whatever – you stress them. That's right. Yeah. That's right.

Interesting. Yeah. And so instead of like getting ingredients that are farmed, even if they're organically farmed, right, wild plants have a lot more antioxidants. And so we tested this, you know, to verify that. And so that kind of thinking and philosophy of science started to go into how we built the good. And the good was very naturally derived. It was oil-based serum, which at the time there really weren't any oil-based serums for men or in general. But when using that type of product in that region, it just felt so nice on my skin and those that we tested it with. you know so from there we started to look at what are really high-end actives like anthrazan skum

i think it's called yeah um and putting those types of of actives together with with some of these these plants like the fireweed and etc and then test it to see how it performs in the labs and then do an actual clinical trial and the clinical trial is really the one where you know you go out to you know, 40, 50, 60 people that you have no relationship with that's run by a lab. They test it multiple ways through instrument testing, but also photography and surveys and all that to get real third-party validated results, right? And that's kind of, you know, how we got to a place of, can we really launch a product that we believe in that we think is going to have repeat purchases that's going to actually drive

efficacy. So that's where the brand started, you know, and then we unleashed, you know, really working with sophisticated formulators and scientists to bring in more of the, the plant-based biotech skincare. Got it. How the hell do you find guys like this? Is there like a Google ads or is this like a friend who introduces you to another? Like, yeah, research helps, right? So you meet, you know, these contract manufacturing. You meet these formulators. You look for scientists in the category on LinkedIn and things of that nature. And you start reaching out to them saying, hey, this is my brand.

This is what I'm developing. Some will say, yes, we'll work with you. And some will say, no, we don't think you have a shot. And you're not worth my time, you know. And as we've grown as a brand, we have access now to the top lines in the industry who have built the best brands in the space. How many of the The actives or the plants and the good

Are from wild grown plants? Is it a big percentage? There's about four that they're in the good That we... That you have to get from the wild. Every summer we have botanists who are wild harvesting. I was just going to say, how does that? Like, we just got to go out into the wilderness.

So they go out into their wilderness. They go to their patches. They know where they are. And they wild harvest, and they do it responsibly so they don't get the whole patch and they get a part of it so it regenerates and they do this all over

in different areas. Oh my gosh. So how does that work? Do you have to buy land to do this or are you able to do it on? So they have their regions. Oh, okay. They have their, their, you know,

relationships with wherever they go and they wild harvest. Are there popular or commonly used actives and other skin care products that you guys don't use? Like retinol. Do you guys use retinol? We don't use retinol.

We don't use like plant-based retinoles and things of that nature. Because, you know, a lot of this, I just, you know, test on myself. Whenever I use a retinol, my face gets extremely chafed. That's right. And it can't kick it. You know, and the thing with retinol, you have to keep on using it and using it because it basically eats away. It kills your layers of skin.

It's like when you get a scab and your scab goes away and you have that white or the pink, you know, it's the same thing with your face and you have to go through that process for like three weeks or something to that effect. My face can't handle that. And a lot of men that I know can't handle it either because they have like sensitive skin, you know. So we stay away. And that's the thing when I was testing, you know, a lot of women's products that had some of these really advanced, you know, high grade, you know, ingredients in there that do these pills and whatnot. They're harsh. They're harsh.

You know, that doesn't work for me, you know, and the people, my friends that didn't work for. So we stayed away from some of those, you know. But there are actives that are more gentle, right? that can work with a male skin type. So here's why my wife switched, because she's used all the other stuff. She's obviously a woman, so she's used female stuff.

And now she switches over and uses primarily, if not only Caldera Lab products. She says it doesn't feel like it's forcing her skin to look healthy. It's almost like it's just encouraging it to look healthy or it just becoming healthier, whereas the other stuff was harsh, I think, would be the right word. That's a great point.

You know, this whole anti-aging thing, right? It's kind of bullshit, right? Right? We're all aging, right? You know, we have anti-aging products, but, you know, they're healthy aging products. That's a great point. You know, it's healthy aging, right? And I think that you, the content that you produce, right?

It's like, you know, you're trying to help people age health in a healthy way, wise way, right? and that's what our products do. You know, like your wife points out, you don't have to go through this whole, you know, week or two of looking and feeling. It's like waging war on your skin to get it to look the way you want. You're going to use it, and your skin's going to feel healthier in days of not weeks,

you know, for most people. Well, the first time. Yeah. You mentioned exosomes. I know this is like a big, like this is a big talking point now in which one of your products is high in the excess Is it the, which one is this? So last year we brought to market two products,

a new skincare serum called The Great and a new moisturizer called the HydroLayer. The HydroLayer, that's the one. Okay. And so both products have our new patent-pending exosomes. And we built those specifically for male skin. And so exosomes are really small and they're a delivery system. and what that means is they can go significantly deeper into your skin dermis to the places that really need the ingredients, right? And so that's what the exosomes do.

The delivering. It's a delivery mechanism, right? And they can hold a tremendous amount of like fluid or moisture, I think it is, right? Right. Yeah, okay. Yeah. All right. So you have the base layer, the hydro layer, the good.

what are they all different or how are they all different? What are they all good for? Yeah. So when we first built the line with the good and the base layer, it's for more drier skin, drier climates, right?

But, you know, we missed out on a certain skin type, you know, which is more normal to oily skin, right? And so as we started building the business when we were getting, you know, interest from our customers saying, hey, you know, I have oily skin, I live in Miami.

I can't really use your products because, you know, they're built for, you know, more of a drier skin type, a drier climate, right? So that was one of the reasons why we started to go down the path of, okay, what's, let's build new products, but let's also add even more intensity of new biotech ingredients and continuing to advance the innovation forward. So that was the great and the hydro layer that we brought out last year that are crushing. Are they doing really well? They're crushing.

How has the growth of the company been since you guys started? It's been exponential. You know, and this year, we're having our best year. It's, you know, we're growing high double digits. Wow. You know, it's profitable. You know, we've tapped into this movement of longevity and self-optimization and wellness that, you know, guys are more into the, you know, taking care of themselves and self-care

and skin care being that one piece, you know, to kind of finish it off, you know, converting men, you know, who've done all these things. now skin care is like that last piece. So the business is tapped into that movement and the acceleration is really exciting. We skip the one product that I absolutely. I was just going to bring it up. I absolutely love and always talk about.

And I'm always telling these guys that they have to use it more is the bar soap. The body bar. I have never had a natural bar soap lather. that my biggest pet peeve of natural bars of soap is it feels like I'm doing nothing. And I know the lather and the foam and toothpaste and I don't know all that shit is made up to make you feel

like you're getting cleaner or soap beer, but it doesn't matter. There's something about it that I just like to feel. It's a really thick, it's like a luxurious leather. I'm so fascinated about how you did that and why nobody else that has natural soaps can make a lather. What is that?

So, you know, you don't have to give away the secret if it's actually a super secret. It just goes to our core of our product development process. We take a long time to build products to make sure that they kick ass. Yeah. And it's like, well, how do you make a bar of soap kick ass? Try it. And you'll see how. Right. And so, you know, it took time. We went to the best, you know, soap manufacturer in the industry and said, you know, we want to build the highest performing soap in the market for men. And here's what we want it to do. And here's the ingredients that we want in it. And here's what we don't want in it. And here's what we don't want in it. And here's the. And here's the. the experience that we want. And it took time to get there, you know, because these things, you know, when you, when you create them, you know, they have a different experience or they don't last long because you have all these, you know, ingredients in their own natural or these actives and stuff like that and changes colors. And so you have to go through iteration after iteration after iteration to get it right. And it took a very long time to get that bar so up to perform. Okay. So does it perform as well as I feel like it should because I feel like it's my, one of my favorite things. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, no, that bar so. I mean, I have two more behind me. There's one right there. Coming home with me. I mean, I go through it. It's my favorite product. Yeah. Surprisingly, that is becoming one of the hottest sellers for us.

Well, for me, I think that's what it is, is that I've, forever, I like natural soaps. And so, and when we go different places, I always try different ones. And they're crazy expensive sometimes for these things that I try. And the thing that I always hate is that I feel like I'm just rubbing wax on my plot. I can't see anything. I'm not sure if I got any. I'm telling you off air, this guy who talks about your soap.

We tease him. We tease him about it. Because I've never seen it. I've never seen natural soap like that, that lathers last as good as it does. Are you guys growing in the female market? Is that starting to grow? Because I can think of another brand that off the top of my head that, went after men in a market that was like everybody thought they were crazy,

and they blew up, and now they're reaching a female market as a result. Are you guys seeing that? Yeah, yeah. We're absolutely seeing it. You know, whether they're buying it for themselves or for their partners, you know, we don't have that visibility. We know around like, you know, the holidays that happens a lot. But it is a growing percentage of our customer base.

But the men side is that's the bread and butter. That's really where who we were building product for, what makes this unique and where we're seeing the growth. Now, is there consideration, though, to dabble on the other side? No, no, I think we're going to stay in our lane. Stay in our lane. Yeah, yeah. You know, when brands start to go off into different lanes and do all different

types of products and saying, we're never going to do supplements, you know. Yeah. We're never going to go into things that, like, you know, we don't know that well, but maybe it's hot right now and we're seeing other brands do it. You know, we've always been told by really smart investors and things like, you know, that when you see a brand start. doing something that's not quarter their, their, their, their, their, their brand. Yeah.

Right. What brought them here. That means that something's not going well. Right. Right. They're doing desperate. They're just looking for, you know, LTV. So anything in the future?

Yeah. What's next? Are you working on something that you can shave products? Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. So body, we're going to continue to, to lean into. You're going to see more products there.

Skincare is always going to be our core. That's always going to be our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our core of the brand. We're always going to be innovating, bringing in the best ingredients, the formulations. We do some hair care as well, right? Oh, cool. But I think what you'll see next from us is a deodorant that's going to come out later this year that we've been working again on it for a very long time. We wanted to nail the experience of it. You know, wanted to put the highest quality ingredients in there and, you know, no white residue, you know, like the amazing scent, but being natural, you know. Oh, I can't wait to see that. You know, and so that's, that's,

that's something that we're pretty excited about. But our skincare products, that's where the real innovation and science is taking place. And then it's, I mean, you said you tested several podcasts, our experience with our partners that have tested a podcast. We tend to ruin the experience for them for a lot because nobody ever is like our audience. And so are you with the same partner still?

Is it, or have you bounced around? Is it just us? Like, who else are you working with in the podcast space? Are you guys still testing that? What's that look like? We spend a lot in podcasts. Yeah, it's a nice channel for us. It's an authentic way to get in front of customers

that we don't touch in social and in other means that we're advertising. And so, yeah, podcast is a very nice channel, but you guys are, you're number one. Yeah, you know, your audience is number one. Yeah. You're trying to renegotiate the contractor? No, we got a great partner.

I mean, you're, number two. You know, he knows that that would be life. Careful, you're giving a mantle. Impeditive. What's your top seller? Top seller is still the good. Okay. Our hero skis.

Is it just because it's the hero and it's been around the longest? Or do you think it's just truly that it is the one that everybody... Yeah, we've built up a really big customer base with it. You know, it's been around since day one. It's, you know, really what we put, you know, all our creativity and all our innovation into. But, you know, the great, the hydro layer, you know, those are coming up quite quickly, the ones that we launched last year. But our core skincare, you know, the top one.

So, you know, the good, the base layer, our cleanser crushes it, you know, that's, that one's huge. You know, eye serum, those are the products, you know, that drive the most volume for the customer. And that's exciting for us because, you know, as a brand, you're, the score of your health of a brand is like, you know, how well are your core products doing in your core category? If that's doing well, then you're doing well as a company. I'm going to take it on as a personal goal to make the bar soap a top three because I think that that's the one that people are missing out on. I just think that, first of all, I don't know any dudes that Lufa or use any other like, well, Doug probably does.

Body gel stuff. Most dudes are bar soap guys. And it is the best bar soap I've ever used in my life. So, I mean, I'm going to. I got to say, too, because I know that like, you know, You got the good, which is kind of oil base. Then you have the base, which is a little more matte and the hydro layer, which is kind of more. I've used all three of them.

I actually use all three of them at home. And depending on which one is closer to me, that's the one I'll probably use. My skin is relatively oily. They all work great. And what that tells me as somebody that likes to look into the science of products and stuff is that they're all good for my skin. Right. So whether your skin's oily or dry, if you use something that,

improves the health of your skin, it's going to be okay. It's going to work. Whereas I think other products are like, this is for oily skin. This is for dry skin because it's almost like chemically forcing your skin to appear to be different. Whereas I can use any of your product. I can use any of them. And they all will look good on me. They all make my skin look better. My favorite is definitely the good, but they're all, they all work really great, which really speaks to the fact that you guys understand skin health. Do you get any feedback from? So it's been huge. for me for my psoriasis. I stopped using any steroid creams, anything like that whatsoever, and it's been incredible for that. Do you get feedback from clientele that are using it similarly

like that? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's great for that. I don't know that sometimes with stuff like that. We're not allowed to say that. Right. There's laws and rules around that stuff. Yeah. People write in emails and they leave reviews and, you know, we just feel good about it. We can't promote it, but we feel good about it as a brain. So I figured that you guys can't make, because obviously I'm sure you would advertise it if you could. But I mean, I talk about that that's what I use it for. And it's been awesome to get away from any of those steroid cream. I've gotten messages from our listeners who've used your products who have acne.

And it actually helped their acne, which is wild. Yes. Because you would not expect a moisturizer or a serum or anything like that to, you know, to do anything to acne. Yeah. But again, I think it has to do with the skin's microbiome. because that has a profound effect. Yeah. Skin balancing.

Yeah. Do you get messages from people about that kind of stuff? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's wild. Yes. That's really, really crazy.

Yeah. So where's, where's headquarters? So are you based in, is the headquarters in Jackson or is there? No. So we launched the company in Jackson, and then we moved it into Austin, Texas in 21. Okay.

Yeah. So now it's in Austin. Okay. Yeah. And then what's the team look like now? Do you have, I mean, I know you built your in-house team? How many employees are at right now? We have a little over 20.

Okay, nice. Nice. Yeah, over 20 and a bunch of consultants. Most everybody in-house? Everyone's, so, so, we don't have an office in Austin. Everyone's virtual. Okay. But our employees are employees, and they work, you know, they live throughout the country.

But yeah, it's a small but mighty team. That's cool. They're super talented and everyone, you know, loves the brand. They believe in the brand. They are part of the product development process. They see, like, how long it takes and how complicated, how sophisticated it is to actually build these products. how we test them, all these clinical trials that we do for all the top ones.

Yeah. You know, so they know that we're just not like a marketing company. They know that we're actually a skincare company building real product, real innovation. Yeah. You know, and then we've learned how to market them well, you know, and how to find a customer. Is your typical consumer, obviously, guy interested in health, fitness, wellness? Absolutely. Age range, 35 to 45?

Is that what I would guess? Yeah, you know, 35 to 70 is kind of that range. But 40 to 60 is kind of like our sweet spot. Oh, that's us. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, when you're 30s, you can still get away with using, you know, little to no products, you know, just maybe just a cleanser, maybe it's a bar of soap, you know. And then your skin starts getting a little dry and you maybe start using your body lotion on your face, you know?

I did that. You know, I know a lot of guys do it. And then you start to think about, well, shit, you know, I'm starting to see stuff happen. Maybe I'll try something a little better and you go to, like, another product. Talk about the clinical trial because I love, I've broughten that up several times on the show. It's on your website. And it talks about it was like over 90% of the participants saw like these pretty dramatic improvements and things like fine lines, wrinkles, skin quality. Are those expensive to run?

Like how long did the trial? Was it 30 days, 60 days? Yeah. So for our first one, it was somewhere between like 60 and 90 days or something to that effect. Right. And we had, I don't know, 40 plus individuals, right? And we didn't, you know, we don't have any relationship with them. the lab's the one who engages with them.

They're very expensive. They're very risky, you know, because you get bad results. You get bad results. Exactly, you know, we, you know, the first one we ran, we had none of us on the team have had ever run a clinical trial, right? So we were just like, okay, you know, sweating, rolling the dice. But, you know, we knew we had a good product, you know, based on, you know, giving it to friends and family and stuff.

And so, yeah, we went through that whole process of testing. it through clinical results and, you know, they do the instrumentation studies, the surveys, all that stuff. And then you get the data back and, you know, you're kind of holding your breath. And it came back incredible from that point. How many trials now? Have you done? Have you done two? I think we've done three or four. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So anybody listening, you could go look up the, if you like data, the trials will show you. That this, it's legit. it. And although the, you mentioned the price point of the, of the good, it lasts forever. You only need like a drop of that to cover your whole face. That's the part that's probably deceiving about the price. And I think somebody who might see it and go, wow, that's really expensive. It lasts a long time too. Yeah. So you get a lot out of that.

At least a month, you know, for many people, it's like two months. Oh, yeah. If you get, if you're using it daily and you'll, you'll still last a month. If you, every other day or whatever, it'll, it'll stretch out much long. that. Did you bootstrap everything? Are you self-funded or did you guys take on money? So I self-funded it and then I got a profitable. And in 2024, we did a series A. Oh, you did? A small series A that we raised. Any plans to still take investments? Are you still trying to scale and grow? What's the... You know, we're fortunate enough to be, you know, profitable and growing fast and being able to manage it all on our own right now. We have a lot of, you know, high-quality blue-chip investors reaching out. But, you know, I think the, the strategy at this point is to keep our heads down

and continue focusing on building the best brand we can. Yeah. At some point, you know, that might happen, you know, where we look to really scale it even more so than it is now. But, you know, we're in a good position where we don't need it. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. And when's Nordstrom?

When does that start? So we launched in May. Oh, you did? We launched in May. How's it going? It's going great. Really? Yeah, we're one of the top men's brands.

They're telling us we're potentially number two. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Good for you. Thank you. That's huge, man. Yeah. That's exciting.

Now, was this a test just a couple and then it could go nationwide or did you go all the way? Yeah, so we went into 33 stores in their top markets, you know, and, you know, they've really partnered with us to be their top, you know, when their top men's brand launches for this year. And so it's been exciting. We just launched in their flagship in New York City. And it went incredibly well. You know, we brought in asceticians and, you know, we didn't know if we're going to be able to get people from our. out the street to come in and get facials. And they were, they were coming in.

It was pretty damn wild. You know, and it was an exciting launch. Well, I love, I love hearing success stories like yours. I love hearing about success stories from entrepreneurs with good purpose and passion behind what they're doing. And we have a special connection because we started with you kind of early on. So it's been great to see, you know, kind of the small company we're working with. And now I see you guys everywhere.

People talk about you. So it's really cool to hear about. all this. And I think this is like the beginning. I think you guys are going to keep just crushing, which is kind of cool. And expect more competitors. I think you've created a new market. There are a lot of competitors. Yeah, because you've kind of, you've shown people now that there's a market here. That's right. Which is a good news. It is good news. You want competition. Absolutely. Bring more awareness to you guys. That's right. That's what it's doing. Awesome. Thanks for coming. Thanks for the partnership. Thanks for having me.

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