Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 114. “Why did we spend $40K on trips we can't afford?”

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

Emily and John are in their mid 30s, living in Boston with their 2 year old son. Both coming from blue collar backgrounds, they’ve successfully broken many negative generational patterns thanks to a $200k combined income—but they struggle to break harmful spending habits.  This episode is brought to you by: LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at https://www.drinklmnt.com/RAMIT. Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at https://www.facet.com/ramit. Mint Mobile | To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to https://www.mintmobile.com/ramit. Trade | Right now, Trade is offering our audience a free bag of coffee with any subscription at https://www.drinktrade.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • Get Money Coaching with Ramit  • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Get my New York Times best-selling book Connect with Ramit • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube • Submit a question for the newsletter iwt.com/askramit  If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years.

And another member made a rule that any time she buys a ticket for an event, she always buys a second so that she can bring a friend. These are just a few examples of how my money coaching members have built systems to use their money. Notice that there's no more anxiety, that they have a smooth running system. They know when their debt's going to be paid off. They can feel comfortable spending on the things they love. They can actually spend less time on their finances while living an amazing life. In my money coaching program, members also get access to live events every month,

including topics like money with aging parents and how to create amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel, plus Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join the program right now. Where we're from was a sailing almost was you got a house, You got a good job and a car and maybe you take your kid to Disney and go to Cape Cork. There wasn't too much more than that.

I never really thought bigger than that. Our parents are going to work until their debt. Her mom's retired, but she doesn't have any money. Getting older faster than I expected. Yeah. It's definitely going quick. I just put it off for so long and now it's like, I've got to do it now or I'll never do it. We are one life-altering financial event from happening from being ruined.

And like that, like, again, I think my motivation is like this panic. And you have a two-year-old son. That's why it's more real. I'm scared I'm not going to understand it well enough in time to get my act together and be there for our son. I don't want him to grow up being so naive and unaware of all of this. Will I be able to get there and, you know, well enough? We've put ourselves in a position where we now just got to focus on ourselves and we won't be able to help him. And that's a very real possibility.

And that's really devastating to me. Do you think you're spending more every month than you actually make? The answer is yes. That scare you? Yeah, I don't know it does. Is it too late for me when it comes to money? This is a question I get a lot. And that's what we're going to talk about on today's episode.

I'd like to introduce you to Emily and John. Emily's 35. She works as a nurse practitioner. John is 36. He works in the entertainment industry. And one of the reasons that Emily and John have started to wonder if maybe it's too late is that they've been together for a long time and they've been spending a lot of money. But they have a two-year-old son.

And usually when couples have kids, they start to think about money in a totally different way. You know, I also want to point out that this is the only podcast where people come on. They share every number of their financials. They talk openly about their childhood, and they let all of us listen in on the most intimate conversations that we've ever heard. I just want to give a huge thank you to every single guest who's ever appeared on this podcast, including today's couple, Emily and John. Let's get into it.

We have both come from a place of not knowing how to manage our money. We don't know what we don't know. And I don't think that that was realized, honestly, and embarrassingly admittedly, was until recently until I kind of found you. It's terribly embarrassing to admit that. Why is that embarrassing? I don't know. I feel like seriously, I was like on Apple Podcasts

and your podcast popped up. I usually don't even listen to anything like this. I'm like a true crime podcast person. I just, but it, I know. And I was like, what is this like I will teach you? I don't know. And so I clicked on it. And like it blew me away.

You realize, you kind of acknowledging that, you know, listening to the couple, and I don't even remember which one at the time, but looking at their finances and then being like, well, the reason you don't have anything in your account is basically because your psychology and what you grew up with. And I all of a sudden it was like, boom. I was like, oh my God. Yeah. Like, and I tried to like thinking and be trying to be like insightful and like being like self aware of like, well, yeah, that makes sense. Like maybe that's why and like really thinking about it. And then honestly really taking a hard. look at our finances and realizing, wow, yeah, like we have, we are not on path to retire at any rate ever if we continue the way that we are. Like, we are one like life altering, you know, financial event from happening from being ruined. And like now saying it out loud is like, you're an idiot. Like you're like, what are you talking about? You have to have a plan. Like that makes so much sense. I relate to so many of your couples. And it's almost like, gosh, why don't I know this by now?

I'm 35. I'm going to be 36. I feel silly because I feel like I pride myself on a lot of other accomplishments that I've had in my life. And then all of a sudden, I listen to all this. And it's like eye opening, really. I was like, wait, what? Like, what it? I didn't know that.

I didn't even ever think to think about. And so we both have really lots to learn. When she started bringing this podcast up, I won't lie. I was kind of aggravated. I was like, oh, this is the last thing I want to deal with.

I don't know. I feel like I'm going to principal's office or something. Like, I didn't even know about, I've had a pension. I didn't even know

a thing about it. I'm even up to today where like trying to find out my username and password on that. Okay. And it's like, it is embarrassing.

I should know more than that. Who is it embarrassing to? I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed. Yeah. Okay. Or both are just because it's so naive to it. It seems like a lot.

But now looking into it, like, I, it's something I do want to know. And I do, I would like to, we have a young son now. And it's like, it's more important than ever. Just being a father and I guess getting older and wanting to grow our family, maybe someday. When I was younger, I didn't really see the importance to it, I guess. I'm so glad that I get the chance to talk to both of you because what you just said is so advanced. Do you know how many people I talk to that make hundreds of thousands of dollars or even more on this podcast? Many of them agonizing over the price of a pack of gum or blueberries and never realizing like there's actually ways to make a plan and to stop worrying about little things and to elevate.

Right. And so I'm with you 95% of what you just said, Emily. except for the last part where you called yourself an idiot. I didn't mean to ignore it. It was that I truly wasn't even aware of it. And I feel so silly. I feel so, I feel so stupid.

I, I'm truly embarrassed. All right. How old is your son? He's too. Ah, cool. Congratulations. Thank you.

All right. So, do you think that your perspective on money is different? I would say it is. I don't work. Like, she definitely, worries more. Oh, yeah. And what about you? I'm all laid back and I definitely procrastinate

that that does not help with finances I'm learning. So yes, I, in general, I'm the more worrier type A person from all aspects. I admit like a control freak. I like things done the way that I like or whatever, which is, again, laughable to say because if you look at our financial situation, it's like, well, really, that's not reflective of that personality. So yes, I worry more and I'm more like, okay, this needs to get done on top of it. And I'm the one kind of being on top of it all. I'm a control freak. I like strive for perfection, I guess.

So what you're telling me is that your concept of your identity of being perfect might not actually be true. Yeah. I mean, I know I'm not perfect. Of course not. Would you two ever call each other an idiot? No. So let's just not do it to ourselves. How about that?

I like it. All right. New rule. We're going to say nice things. And sometimes, hey, we go, wow, I wish I had learned that starting at age 18, but I didn't. And so the next best thing I can do is to get really good at money now. Same thing, just a different frame. Much more empowering.

Yeah. How's that feel, Emily? That's good. All right. So let's agree on that. That's one of the rules we've come up with today. Love it. So you heard the podcast, Emily, and you were like, oh my God, I don't know any of this stuff. And what'd you do after that? I listened to a ton more. I bought your book. I told John all about you. I was like, listen to these things. Like listen. Like we could have this or like, what were we doing? Like we're in no plan path. I kind of like, divulged all my anxiety on him, convinced him that we need to change,

try to have him see my perspective and then tried to start setting things in motion, I guess. John, how did you receive that when she started telling you about this stuff? So honestly, I thought it was a scam. You thought a site called I Will Teach You to Be Rich was a scam? And then once I started looking into the book and then I was listening to some of the podcasts,

I like the way you just spoke. about it very bluntly and it didn't seem like you were selling anything. You were just trying to educate, which I, I like that. Wait, the hilarious part is that I actually am selling things. Like, I have many products. Did you guys know that? Yeah. That's actually really funny. So I don't even know if he knows that you have like, you know, the money coaching program, like all of those things. I know them because I listen to my. You didn't tell him that because you're like, he'd really think it's a scam. And now he's learning it right now. Yeah. Am I being scared? Yeah. No, no. I love hearing this stuff. I know the site sounds.

like a scam. I will teach you to be rich. It's like, come on. I kind of love hearing these dynamics. Emily stumbles across it because it's on Apple Podcasts. She's like, and then she comes home, she tells John, oh my God, we got to do this. He's like, what kind of bullshit is this? But John, to your credit, you were like, okay, I'll listen. I'll watch a little bit. And then you were like, wow, there's something here. And here you both are. That's a pretty interesting path have brought them here. It's kind of humbling to think that more people may have heard about me in the last two months than maybe the last 20 years combined of my career. There are also so many things to note about the way that they make snap judgments. Emily says that she's a control freak,

in her own words, but her finances don't really reflect that. It's like if you're going to be a control freak and your finances aren't even dialed in, what's the point? Then John is like, That sounds like a scam, but he also ignores his money. Now, I'm not blaming them. All of us have these funny quirks of identity or even gaping blind spots. The important part is that Emily and John realize they need help and they are here now. Just guess the average wait time to see a doctor in the United States. I'm not talking about a specialist, just a regular standard family doctor.

Do you think it's a week, two weeks? Nope, it's over 30 days. So a lot of times, whatever symptoms you have are going to be gone or maybe worse by the time you get to that appointment. I don't want you to have to wait weeks to see a doctor. I want you to get seen faster by an in-network doctor using Zocdoc. Zocdog is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love.

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How'd you grow up with money? I'm guessing nobody was sitting there doing compound interest charts for you as kids. Seeing a lot of shaking heads right now. All right. Tell me, John, how'd you grow up with money? I was raised by my grandparents. My mother had me when she was 18 years old. It was not planned.

So she didn't know anything about money. She was a kid. And my grandparents pretty much, I think, just spoiled me because they felt bad. Even if I wasn't doing right, I would get... not anything I wanted. We were a pretty blue-collar family, but I didn't want for anything, and it didn't matter.

If I was getting bad grades, I still probably got what I wanted anyways. Got it. Okay. So it kind of just felt like, I don't know, I never took money serious, I would say, because I guess I didn't,

no one around me took it serious. You grew up with your grandparents, both? Yes. All right. He was a mechanic. Okay. Okay. Emily, tell me about money growing up for you. My mother and father divorced when I was really young when I was like four.

It left my mother to care for me and my two older brothers alone, that included financially as well. That, yeah, there was no financial support for my father's end. And, you know, what I remember feeling like we didn't have money. She had to work, you know, incredibly hard to support just the three of us. right, but it's really conflicting because she had to like, I remember her working like three jobs. I actually was just sharing this with John the other night is that I have like this memory of being little and her coming home from like her nine to five and I would want to play with her when she got

home, but she would just be like, can I just need to like rest my eyes for like five minutes on the couch so she could get ready to go to her other job to work till one in the morning. And I would be sad because I would want to like play with my mom and thinking about it now it makes me really sad that she even had to kind of do those things, like to work so incredibly hard. But I also realize now that she didn't also didn't know, even though she was working so hard, she didn't manage her money well either. I don't think she ever knew how to manage her money because this is a perfect example. Every Christmas, she, and actually it's funny, John had this similar thing, so it's really weird, but I would get like that department bookstore, like that

JCPenny bookstore. I don't know if that rings about, right? And it'd be like, the catalog. Yeah, the catalog. Thank you. Circle the toys you want. And she would give that to me and my two brothers. And start as shit. Like Christmas morning would come and our living room would be to the, filled to the brim with every toy we wanted. Every day we asked for. She would work so hard. And it made her so happy to give us that. But, you know, at the same time, I have very vivid memories of being like called into the principal's office being pulled out of class to be told that, hey, we've been trying to get a hold to your mother. Your tuition's not paid. So you, you know, you can't go back to class. Wow. She knew how to work hard for our money. She was generous with her money, right? Because she really

wanted to make us happy. And I think in her eyes, it was, you know, giving us all that. And that's how she tried to portray that by, you know, yeah, like, she would take me to the mall, like, once a week and we'd go on a shopping spree, but like, once a week? Like, sometimes we would. Like, that's a lot. No, yes. She's in a situation where she's retired, but her retirement is purely, she's living off of Social Security and a disability check. And it speaks me, feel sad to think, well, she's already a lost cause. Now I'm going to get upset.

Yeah. So, like, for example, like, we've been saying, oh, we're going to meet with this financial advisor. Like, I'm referring to you, but not going to tell her I'm going to be on a podcast. Tell her I'm not a financial advisor. Yeah, I know. I know. I just don't know how to explain you. That's okay. I get it. But I can already, I can tell that she's like, hmm, like that's weird because that's something that's a foreign to her. Right. It's out of her day to day, even year to year. I get it. Look, our parents grew up with different situations, different tools, certainly a different income than the two of you have. It's not necessarily fair for us to expect for them to have

the same advantages that they gave us. I get that. I certainly can hear a lot with what you're saying and I understand what you're talking about. Both of our families and all of the relationships in our families and clearly the finances too but the relationships and things that in mental health problems and you know things like that are generational yeah like I don't know issues and you know not treated and we we pride ourselves that like we're breaking the cycle together and we laugh and say all the time like who did we think we are like us two getting together because now we're just like meshing too bad things. Gene pools.

Like, what we were going to have a kid, we're like, is this the right decision? Like, should we do that to a kid? Like a therapist that said to me, all it takes is one to break the cycle. And you're already doing it. And it was really amazing and really nice to hear. I noticed that Emily's mom works really hard,

probably feeling guilty about not being able to buy her kids lots of things. And then when the holidays came around, she gave him a JC penny catalog and said, get whatever you want. I noticed that her mom had a lot of anxiety around money and not necessarily the best financial skills. Now, when it comes to money behavior, do you see any similarities between Emily and her mom?

I never flew anywhere until we started dating. When was that? What age? Oh, 18 years old. Okay. You guys have been dating since you were 18 years old? I was 17, yes. Wow. And is this like you're from the same town or something?

Yes. Wow, this is a real small town love story here. I love it. Okay. Where'd you meet? The where, the YMCA? Where was it? Like a field.

No. What the fuck? No. Like. We met in a field? No, like kids are hanging around at like parks and stuff like that. Yeah. So like.

Wait, that's a field. No, I guess. That sounds more terrible. Well, that's true. We met in a field. and it was love at first sight. Oh, it was a beautiful day. Oh, it was a beautiful day.

No. Hey, look, that's like neighborhood love. I kind of love it. That's beautiful. And have you two been together since then? Yeah. Wow, so you've been together 17, 18 years. Yeah, go 19 this year.

Yeah. Oh, congratulations. That's amazing. That's amazing. They don't hear that story too much these days, so it's kind of cool. Well, so sorry, like, we didn't have a money conversation, before we got together, we were little, too, right? Like, we didn't.

That's a surprise to me. Yeah. Yeah. We were kids. We both got our careers, I guess, pretty young. I remember we were going to like trips to islands when we were probably 19 years old. What islands? I think we went to Jamaica, I think.

Oh, yeah. Hold on. I have to ask you guys this. So in the pre-screen, my colleague made a comment. She goes, you guys love Aruba, don't you? And you were like, yes. Yes, we do. And I was like, what is this?

How does it? And she goes, everybody from Boston goes to Aruba. And I'm like, uh, what the hell is this that I had no idea about? Can you please explain it for all of us? Um, I know we can't actually. I, for some reason. That's just where everyone goes for some reason. Everyone from Boston goes to Aruba.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot. They go there a lot. I, because it's a quick flight and it's great. The weather's always great. So it's just like the go-to, I think. So it's just easy.

I love it. I did not know this little micro trend of people from Boston always go into Aruba. That is amazing. Thank you for opening my eyes to that. Let me tell you why I love this so much. There are micro trends in cultures that will never, ever show up in a written book, but they are nonetheless real. Like if you go to any Indian person's house, like my mom's house, every single one of them has this Le Peril serving pot with orange flowers on the side. I don't know how every Indian mom has the same pot, but they do. It will never show up in a book, but it's real. I don't know why I love collecting these tiny, specific cultural examples.

But now that I've got this podcast, Mike, I want to ask you, if you have one, send me a DM on Instagram and tell me what it is. It can be a little quirk of culture or religion or gender, geography, whatever. But I just love collecting these and I want to hear from you. And you were taking trips? We would just take trips and we never thought of it. We just would get paid and we thought we were getting paid well and we'd just go on vacations or out to restaurants and it's like, oh, we can afford it. Surely you grew up hearing people around you say like save, save, save, everybody in America hears save, save, save, doesn't mean you do it, but surely you heard that.

Is that fair to say? Yeah. Okay. Did you save? No. Wow. I mean, we saved by our house. We saved to buy our house.

Yes. Okay. Did you buy it? Yeah. Yeah. Not the right way. No. What does that mean?

We didn't run the numbers. What's your mortgage? So our mortgage is $3,300. Okay. But we own a multifamily. Okay. We live in it. So we're renting one of the units.

So we're getting, you know, I got what's included in there. And then what I did because you're going to be really excited what we did is we got a key lock. Why'd you do that? Everyone told you to. It's free money. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hold on. Don't even tell me. Let me guess. Let's take out the home equity line of credit and let's renovate it because renovation is free money. It will add to the price of the property and we'll get the money back.

Did I get that? Yeah. We did a little rent. Yep. We did spend some of it on renovations. That's shocking. Okay, wow. And what else did you do with the money?

If you say Aruba, we're in real trouble here. No, actually, it was a much better trip. It was a much better trip. We spent three weeks in Italy and Croatia. You took a heel on to take a vacation. No, that's the thing. We didn't take it out for that. But then once it was there, we were like, who.

I mean, listen, I'm all with you, like, you got the childhood. You got the blue collar family. I'm like, okay, I can roll with that. But this is crazy. I know. Yeah. I know. Do you know?

Why is it crazy? Well, now I know that's going to cost us like 10 times what we paid for. Exactly. In the long run. You're telling me that your loan officer didn't clarify all of these details. You're telling me your loan officer didn't have your best financial interests at heart? You did not know. I'm shocked that anyone in the mortgage industry would possibly not put you and your interest first,

that they would only be trying to make a commission. That's right. That's so shocking. Anyone in the mortgage industry, I'll see you in hell. All right. So I just want to point out that you're spending like 17%, 17 and a half percent of your gross income on your housing. Is that good or bad? I don't know.

Okay. That's a fair answer. Emily? I think it's good because you said it should be about 20. Less than 28%. Am I wrong? Less than 28. How much did you take on the home equity line of?

credit? We, I think it's approved up to 130,000. It's at 94. You have $94,000 taken out. Okay. That's a lot. Oh, we also had this plan that, oh, if it's opened, that could be, we could dip into that for a down payment on another house and then next thing, you know. Don't do all this shit. Yeah. Please stop. I know. I'm not even going to get into how some of you actually trust your loan officer to look out for you. I want you to think of anyone in the mortgage industry as one of those little merry-go rounds you used to see outside of Kmart and Target. You know, you put the little two-year-old, they ride on the horse, it costs a quarter. The mortgage industry is like that. They're coin operated. That's what they do. They get you financing so you can buy a house. That is it. You wouldn't expect your merry-go-round to do your taxes,

would you? That merry-go-round's not going to kiss your boo-boo. It's not something. going to rotate your tires. So why the hell would you expect your loan officer or your realtor to look out for your financial interests? They are not there for that. They are there to make a commission. Okay. Let's look at their numbers. Their assets are $900,000. Their investments are $57,000 and they're currently investing 9% of gross. Their savings are $2,000 and their debt $557,000. One of the most shocking things I've learned from this podcast is that almost all of the couples who come on my show with 10 out of 10 money problems have never read a single book about personal finance. Not just my book, they never read any book about money. You'll note that when people talk

about money, it is very easy to dream about what they want. And actually, I like dreaming. It's good. We should dream. We should come up with our rich life vision. But we don't just need dreams. We need a plan. So you can create that plan yourself and, figure out how compounding works and when you'll be able to withdraw this money and on and on. Or if you need help building a specific plan for you, our partners at Facet can help. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your portfolio. You get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan for your rich life goals.

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Western Southern Life Assurance Company, not available in certain states. Prices is subject to underwriting and health questions. Okay. Total net worth? 4,000-1,000-ish. Okay. What do you think about that? I hate it. Okay. John, what do you think about it? I hate it. How come both of you hate that number. It should be more for what we've made. Okay. We blew a lot of it. Frivolously. I thought it was just having fun, but now I'm looking back and. I mean, we did have fun, but it was. We did. It was at the expense of. Yeah. Our future, it seems. Okay. What scares you about money the most? Emily, I know you're scared of it. Um, right now I feel like we've gotten ourselves in a position financially that it's just going to take so long to recover from that it's going to now like again another drain of time before we're getting back on the right path.

Okay. John, how do you, what scares you about money? Before this, not too much, to be honest. We always, we were from. I was to stand. almost was you got a house, you got a good job and a car and maybe you take your kid to Disney or go to Cape Cod. There wasn't too much more than that. So I never really thought bigger than that, honestly. But then I saw listen to the podcast and we're talking and it's like, our parents are going to work until their debt or her mom's retired, but she doesn't have any money. So they're not going to retire with a pension. I don't even that no one I know and my family had a pension other than my grandparents. Getting older faster than I expected. Yeah. It's definitely going quick.

Yeah. And I'm like, I just put it off for so long. And now it's like, if I got to do it now or I'll never do it. Okay. I'm scared I'm not going to understand it well enough in time to get my act together and be there for our son

or in future children too. Now hearing this, I don't want him to grow up being so naive and unaware of all of this. I want to start talking to him up money when it's age appropriate and doing all the things that, you know, everyone clearly know, or not everyone, but people do and recommend this whole life that I never even knew existed, these dynamics in someone's family I never even knew about. I want to be those parents. And like, will I get there? Like, will I be able to get there and, you know, well enough. And, and then also, I want to be able to financially, you know, get him on a right path too, like also provide for him. And now I'm afraid that I've put myself in,

we've put ourselves in a position where we now just got to focus on ourselves. We won't be able to help him. And that's very, very real possibility. And that's really devastating to me. So it sounds like this is, Emily, you. coming to terms with this idea of breaking the cycle that you talked about, specifically relating to money. Is that right? Yeah, I think you just said something that that just made me, sorry. Yeah, like I just said, like, we're really proud that we've, like,

broken the cycle in other areas, and now I'm realizing that because we didn't break this one, I won't, my son won't benefit from it. Like I didn't break it for him. Can we reframe that slightly using that rule that we all agreed on? What was the rule? I'm not an idiot. Yeah. Basically, we're not going to beat ourselves up.

What are we going to do instead? Get better. Yeah. Get better. Exactly. So try that same thing because you're giving me the honest truth, Emily. And I can hear that. I'm going to cue you up with the first part of the same.

sentence you said. You said, we're so proud of how we broke the cycle in so many other ways. But now with money... We're going to break it. We're going to be the ones to break it. I know that. I guess, will it be all that I thought I could be, I could provide or could give him? I feel like, all right, I'm going to stop being so negative by myself. Yeah. We're going to break the cycle. We're going to be better. We're going to be... We're already. amazing parents. And, you know, I know that.

I would like to chime in a little. We're both, both of us, me and Emily, like, our parents were very worried about, like, where do they go when they get older? They don't really have anything set up. So that's a very real fear of hers that, like, she doesn't want our son to feel that way, the way she feels. Yes. Yes.

Which is like, is that burden going to be put on her or us? Right now, the way that my parents and even my sibling have been, you know, their financial situation is set up, is that I'm like the stable one of the family, right? And so I'll be the one that will have to step forward. And so I do not want that for my son. I refuse to put that to have him feel the way that I'm feeling right now and to feel that burden. And I'm feeling like that situation with them, if it does burden me, it will just trickle down and burden him. Yeah. Would you like to change it?

Yes, desperately. Just want to reflect for a second on how many couples come on this show. and acknowledge that they want to break the cycle of how they grew up with money. And I find that to be very, very powerful, especially when a couple decides they want to do it together. They have a very good chance of being able to do it. Now, they may not necessarily have the role models. They may not even have the skills.

But the desire alone is a very, very promising ingredient in wanting to change the way that you treat money. By the way, if you want to do this, you can download your own conscious spending plan at IWT.com slash CSP. Talk to me about your combined gross monthly income per month. 16,200. Do you guys know what your income is combined per year? Mm-hmm.

You do? What is it? 200,000. John, what do you think? We live in an expensive city. Weird. I didn't ask where you live. what your income is.

I mean, I think it sounds a lot better than we're making it out today, I guess. What's the number? $200,000. Yeah, correct, about $200,000. I mean, that's a lot of money. I know you all live in an expensive area. That's fine. But I just want to point out, like, you two grew up blue collar.

You grew up with nobody teaching you about money, and you're making $200,000 a year in your 30. What do you think? You say it like that, it sounds good, but I don't feel good about it. Of course you don't feel good about it. Let me ask you this, John. If you had to break down the percentage, how often did you feel bad about money and how often did you feel good about money?

Growing up, mostly bad. Yeah, like what percent? 80, 20. Yeah, 80 percent bad, 20 percent good. Yeah. And the 20 percent, you felt good. What was happening? when you felt good about money?

Someone was buying something for me or spending it. Wow, that's so shocking. Do you see any connection to your adult self right now? No, definitely. When do you feel good as an adult with money? Spending it. Yeah, specifically where? Vacation.

Bingo. Do you ever make that connection before? Recently, but not before that, no. Yeah. So it's no surprise to me. that you don't feel good about money. It's no surprise to me that the two of you are sitting here all depressed sounding about, oh, boo-hoo, we only have $400,000 in net worth.

I'm looking at something completely. I'm looking at the same exact spreadsheet you're looking at, the conscious spending plan, and I'm seeing something totally different. I'm seeing a young couple in their mid-30s with a young son who grew up, nobody teaching you about money. You met 18 years ago and you said, we're going to break the cycle, and you now make $200,000 a year. That to me is incredibly impressive.

What do you all think? I just think the same I said earlier, it does sound good. It's just we're not doing the right things with the money. Yeah, it sounds great in theory. And I'm, like, proud of what we made. I'm just not proud of the way. we've managed it. And so it's hard for me to feel proud about it, I guess.

All right. Let's make some changes so you feel proud. How about that? Yeah. All right, fine. Now, can you just, how much are you spending as a percentage, Emily? What's this number up here under fixed costs? 71.

What's it supposed to be ideally? 50 to 60. Yeah. So what do you think about that? Well, it's too high. It's a little high. What's interesting is your rent and mortgage is actually quite good. Usually these numbers, especially in expensive cities, are like 28, 30, 32, even 34.

You've kept this number really low. So there's some other stuff that's really high. We can talk about that, you know, and we're going to have to find a way ideally to bring this down. We're going to have to get rid of the parking. Yeah. We're going to have to drastically change. She pays for a private spot at work. There is like shuttles.

and free shuttle. Okay, done. Can you do that, Emily? Are you committing to that? Yes. All right. How much is that? $400 a month.

Whoa. All right. If we put my Uber's and parking down as well. Yeah. Yeah. How much? I mean, probably like 200.

You want to take 200 off this number? Mm-hmm. Okay. John, are you okay with that? Yeah, and I could, I'll just have to only take them if it's nighttime and the Uber's, I mean, the trains are closed. Okay, fine. We're at 65%. We're getting closer.

It's like we could definitely get rid of some of the subscriptions, but like you said, there's saving third. Keep YouTube because my show is on there. Get rid of YouTube TV. I don't know. Pick one. Let's just play with it. Let's at least get down to 60.

I know. I feel so silly like this. I listen to your business and people do this. And I'm always like, why can't they figure it out? And now here I am. Well, 854.

I'm taking YouTube away. Okay. 64%. All right. iPhones. Yeah. Anything on that? I don't know.

I feel like we're scraping the bottom here. You two tell me. Holy shit. What is all this stuff? So I, yeah. pretty litter. You guys have a cat? Yes.

Wait, you have a cat? Where's the cat food in here? So yeah, you're right. I didn't. Well, I include that in the groceries. Oh, okay. Fine. Peloton, 44 bucks,

blah, blah, blah. Well, look, you guys want to tell me how you want to get to 57%? Yeah, isn't this crazy? Like, it seems silly that I don't. I feel like it's impossible. Before we go on, listen very carefully to this life lesson.

Okay, it's really important. Be very cautious about what you add to your fixed expenses. Because once it's there, it is extremely difficult to get rid of. Once you get used to two car payments, it's almost impossible to think of only having one car. Once you get used to feeding your dog some organic stuff from Switzerland, it's almost impossible to imagine getting your dog food from the grocery store. And when it comes to housing, forget about it.

Once you get used to a certain lifestyle with housing, whether it's a four-bedroom house or a certain neighborhood, it is almost impossible for people to contemplate downsizing. The lesson here is to be extremely cautious about what you allow into your fixed costs. You want to rent a beach house for a week? be my guest, but if you want to buy a beach house, keep in mind that it is going to be extremely difficult for you to ever downsize because of financial reasons. In my own situation, I know that one day when I buy a new car, it's going to be a nice car and I'm never going to want to downgrade.

Same thing with a house. I'm going to buy one one day. And I know once I buy it, I'm never going to want to go down. I'm only going to want to stay or go up. So my philosophy is that, that I'm going to set myself up so I never, ever have to put myself at risk for what earns its way onto fixed costs. I recommend you do the same. All right. And then everything else, your guilt-free spending is $1,600 a month. I don't really believe this number. I think the two of you spend a lot more than this. And this is including all your vacations, spread out through the whole year. You didn't include that? No. No. What are we talking about? Right, because we're, I'm not going to say the word.

Can we just do it? Let's just, okay, take your number, put a pin in that. Your vacations last year. How much did you spend on all of? I truly don't know. Well, I'll help you figure it out right now. Emily's like looking down. Emily, the ground is not going to open up and someone's not going to grab you and take you straight to hell.

You got to stay here with me. This is your hell from now on. How much? I mean, our trip last March was probably, I don't even know. This is what's so silly. It was probably like, I don't know, $5,000, $6,000. Okay. Usually when someone says $6,000, it's like about $10,000.

Because they don't add in taxes, taxis to the airport, flights, tips, drinks, all that stuff. Yeah, because definitely we don't like think about those things on vacation. Yeah, spending money, definitely not. All right, $10,000 for the big trips. That's $2,000 a year, $20,000. And then the small trips? I mean, at least $500, if they even like want to two nights somewhere. definitely more because

Yeah, that's just the hotel and Yeah 2000 more? 3,000? No, about 1 to 2.000. 2000 is the minimum. We don't say 1 to 2. We say 2.

And how many did we say you do 8 per year? 16,000 plus 20,000. That's $36,000 a year in travel. How weird. We don't see that represented on the conscious spending plan. Emily?

I know that we do so. There's no way we spend that much money. I believe, I mean, yeah, I guess so. See? See? It's called like, don't know. Everybody listen closely and look in my eyes right now. That's Phantom costs. That's how it works. They're called Phantom for a reason. They're invisible. You forget about them. Your mind does not want to factor in 38% taxes at a hotel or the drink, much less the tip you left for the bartender. we don't want to think about that.

We go, oh, the hotel cost $200,000. Eh, $250. It's like $2,000. That's how it works. So, again, I don't know if these numbers are right or wrong. Actually, they're definitely wrong. We don't even know what direction they're wrong in, but we know that it's a lot of money.

Would we agree? Yes. If you actually knew that you were spending $40,000 a year on travel, would you be going to the same places you go to in the same style and the same stuff? No, when you say it like that, absolutely not. That's the point of a rich, I know. You got to get it on paper.

You got to be honest. And then you have to design your rich life. And I guarantee if you're going on, I'm dropping 40K a year on travel, you're not traveling like this. Yeah. You're right. If we correctly calculated this and I just added like $3,000 a month to this expense, your guilt-free spending, your number jumps from 15% to 43%. Mm-hmm.

You're going broke every month. Mm-hmm. that's exactly how people can make a lot of money and actually feel like we're doing okay we could be doing better but we're doing okay and they're actually losing money every single month until they skate so close to the edge that one minor problem can totally destroy them financially i don't want you to get there i want to flip it around so you can keep traveling so you can build some really good habits you teach your son how this all works all that All right. How are you both feeling right now? Emily?

I feel like I'm ready to, I'm ready for your suggestions and your help. I'm open. Cool. John? I'm feeling a little better than I was coming in. I was very nervous coming in and it doesn't look as bad. That does not look good as well, but I feel like that's something that could be corrected. That's like a self-inflicted thing. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. If we're not over our heads with that, we could stop it. No, you could totally stop this. And just the fact that you even said that is amazing, because you realize that's in your control. I think it's just all adds up. Do you think you're spending more every month than you actually make? I do.

I think so. Very close. Oh, no, the answer is yes. I mean, we only have $2,000 on our saving, so we must be. Does that scare you? Yeah. Yeah, now it does. it is so, so easy to spend more than you make.

I think a lot of us have this belief that if you spend more than you make, suddenly your credit cards are going to stop working, and a big loud alarm is going to start blaring somewhere. Nope, that's not how it works. In fact, so many people spend more than they make and don't even realize it. You can do it in a lot of ways. Most commonly, you do it slowly with a little bit of debt, thinking it's not so bad.

The debt starts to cost you more each month, especially if it's high interest credit card debt, and then suddenly you are trapped. Or you can draw down your savings. You used to have $5,000 in savings, now you only have $500. What's going on? You're spending more than you make. It can happen with one-off expenses like medical expenses, which is actually extremely common later in life.

With things like vacations, you usually hear people saying, it's not like I'm spending a ton, but oftentimes they're doing it eight times a year. The point is, it's much easier than you think to spend more than you make. And you can actually go years doing this, never even realizing it. What's the area of life that you want to spend more on this year? A lot of people will say health or relationships. Some people will say travel. Let's talk about food and health for just a second.

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Let them know that we sent you after you check out. Again, that's Lisa.com promo code Rameet. How long can you go keeping on spending more than you make? I mean, we're one injury or knock on wood, like an accident away from. something bad happening. And you have a two-year-old son? Yes. I know.

That's why it's more real. We just need to be honest with ourselves and realize, like, we just can't keep up the lifestyle that we got used to. Another thing we didn't factor in. What? Like how much we spend just like taking them out and things like that. Where do you take your two-year-old? Well, I feel like anytime it's raining or bad weather, we spend money, we take them to like an indoor park.

Like get out of the house. Or take them a museum or like we'll go to Target and just like buying a toy because it's the brain and then not this again. Whenever we're bored, I'm noticing. Whenever we're bored, we go and spend money. It'll just be like, oh, if this is boring, let's go to the bar or the restaurant around the corner. Tell that to Emily. Tell that to Emily.

Have a discussion about this. Oh, I know it. We know it. Oh, we know. Well, it's good. You know. Did you do anything about it? No.

Well, now we're trying to. we're trying to. Now we're trying. I'm realizing that it really is just about getting out and being together and it doesn't matter about what the things that we do and we just somehow always are lean toward, and it's spending money. I don't mean it. Like we'll drive into Boston and spend 50 to park and then go out to eat.

Yeah. And it's like, so we were out for two hours and spent 200. Yeah. Yeah. And we didn't even like you. I didn't even like. Yeah. Listen, I totally get it, by the way.

I've lived in these big cities. I know how expensive it is to even just go into the city and just have a drink. I totally get it. Okay? But what I'm also pointing out to you is that, you know, it feels good. You get dressed up, you go, you have a nice dinner, whatever. What you don't think about unless somebody shows you is that that $100 that you just spent directly took away from your own vision of a rich.

life. Yeah. Now, if your vision of a rich life is to go into the city twice a month and have a nice drink, I'm all for it. I'll show you how to do it. But it seems to me that you're telling me you do a lot of these things just because you're bored. Yeah. Yeah. And if you go really deep and you think about your childhood, that 20% where you felt good, John, and for you, Emily, when you think about your mom buying you those toys every single week, week, there's almost certainly that connection that's coming up for you. You may not even be aware of it. And guess what?

What's going to happen to your son in just a couple of years? Yeah, he's going to be us. He's going to fall into this trap and think exactly like we do. He already is, I feel. Is he? Oh, yeah. Why? Like, he'll, he gets bored.

I mean, it could just be a two-year-old thing, but I feel like he's bored with his toys instantly and we're already like. moving on to what else can we get him. Oh. What else can we get him at two? That's an us problem. Yes. But I'm saying I think he's getting used to it.

Yes, I know what we're overspending and all that. And I think one of, I had to have to say this, one of the first episodes I listened to your podcast, I remember it caught me my attention because it was the, um, the quote that one of the couple said. And, um, it said, how can we like not change any still live our life that we don't want to change anything um but also you know have our retirement and be set for life and and i was like yes that's like the best question

ever right like even though i know it's unrealistic yeah um that's like yeah i relate to that i enjoy we enjoy going on those trips and you know doing all those things and it's that realization of like yeah those those have to stop at least temporarily or need to be done the right way and having to like acknowledge like that that's really going to happen is not fun because there hasn't really been any restriction for the last 18 years it's mostly been like hey in fact we have more money than we know what to do with since we're 18 so there has not been much restriction but you know what else there hasn't really been there hasn't really been a vision of a rich life emily and john's situation is so common

they're not really on top of their numbers. Things seem fine, but upon closer inspection, they're likely spending more than they make each month, and they have poor financial habits. And what's most common of all here is that they ignored this until they had a child. And now suddenly they're in a big hurry to fix everything. The solution isn't for me to tell them

all the things they're overspending on. It's to help them develop a rich life vision and let them come to that realization themselves. If they do that, it's going to be so much more powerful and they are going to lock in the changes that they need to make in order to live that rich life. What is your rich life, Emily? So yeah, I do want to travel. That would be really nice, you know, be able to budget for that and not have to worry about that. To feel like there's financial security. in the sense of knowing that I can do all those things that I want to do, but know that I'm still set,

have myself set up for the future as well. I want to remain part-time because I want to enjoy, you know, my son at this age and maybe if possible, another child. And it's really important for me to, like, prioritize spending time with them. And so I, but I want to, like, retire early so that we're young enough to enjoy retirement. I also want to be young enough to retire to, you know, enjoy my children's children and, you know, my grandchildren be young enough to maybe be there, like, their daycare. That would be a rich life to me. All right. Thank you. John, what about you? What's your rich life? To be able to afford these trips that we want to go on and not be spending money we don't have. I would like to, like, if My son was getting married,

be able to pay for it. We didn't have that. Not everyone has that, but I would really like that. Well, like, if you wanted help with a down payment or something, we'd be able to help them out.

And then just, I mean, I would love it, like, a vacation home, but, like, somewhere we could drive.

Okay. Like a lake house or something. All right. How do you both feel hearing each other's rich life visions? Any surprises? No. No surprises. Emily?

No, I don't think so. Have you talked about this before? Yeah, that's what I think our problem is that we have talked about all these things that we've wanted. And for a long time, not realizing that we aren't putting anything in motion for them to be realistic. Yeah. Are you ready to make a change? Yeah. Yes.

So can we agree that the one thing we will not do on this call is to leave the situation as is? Can we all agree on that? Yes. I agree. She would say all the time, like, where is our money going? Way before we found you. And we both would just look at each other and like, I don't know. John, you have a pension?

Is that right? Yes. Is that reflected here, Emily? No, neither of our pensions are on the conscientious. spending plan. Oh, how much are those for ballpark per month? So we have no idea about Johns. It's been so incredibly difficult to try to get information on it. And then I have the pension funded by my employer. How much is the pension? Right. There's like, it's like seven percent based on what I make annually. They contribute,

like a seven and a half percent. That's a lot. Yeah. It's really, I have it written down. That's really good. That's like a lot of money. So currently I have $69,000 in there. $69,000 you just found in the couch cushions? No, we didn't find it. Does anybody have any other $60,000 finding somewhere? I don't know how to factor.

How do you? That was a question that we were going to ask. Why just type it in? Who cares? Okay. Watch, watch, watch me do it. Okay. Watch this.

Okay. Emily, I'm putting it in caps. Emily's pension. Mm-hmm. $812 per month. What I'm going to say here is this is all wrong, but at least directionally, it gets us pointed in the right direction.

It's a pension. It's not post-tax, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. At least we got it down on paper and we can tweak it later. You have $70,000 sitting in an account that's not reflected anywhere here. That's not okay.

We've got to find a way, even if it's imperfect, to put it on our conscious spending plan. Do you see what I mean, Emily? Yes. Yes, I do. I want to be able to factor that in and know how to factor that into my retirement as well, in addition to my investments.

I don't know how to use that as being like, okay. Well, here's the thing. It's very complicated. And I don't build that into the CSP because so few people have a pension. Okay. And the pension can depend on all manner of things. You can go to your HR person and ask them like, hey, help me understand this. what number do I call?

And they will tell you if you work this many years, this is how much you're going to have every single month by the time you retire. So that's another thing that we didn't even mention, which John used to make more significantly more than what he made. And COVID, because he works in the, it's the entertainment industry, he was out of work during COVID. He lost his job during COVID. And then when they returned back to work, it was not where it was.

Yeah, it's not the same. If it does go back up, what would it go up to? You're currently making $4,600 a month, John. I was probably making like $70 to $80,000 a year. Oh, that's a lot. All right. So maybe like almost double. All right, what would you do with the extra $4,000 a month?

I mean, now I would want to just put it right into investments because we've learned how to live without it. Nice. Do you know how many people come to me? They go, Rameet. It's impossible for me to save $50 a month. Investing $100 a month must be nice. I go, listen, everybody can invest with rare.

There are tiny rare exceptions, but almost everybody can put aside $20 to $50 a month. And here's trick. When you set it up automatically, you learn to live without it. I'm talking 20, 50. For some people, 500 a month. They just won't miss it.

Look at this amount. You have $70,000 on the couch. You know, it's like there's money to be redirected here. So at $4,000 extra dollars a month or even $2,000 if that happened, the fact is you've learned to live without it. That is an amazingly insightful thing. If I asked you like two, three years ago, could you live with $40,000 a year less? What would you have said?

I would have said no chance. No chance. Here you are. So what does that tell you about your current situation? That's not as bad as we think or if it could get better. This is kind of unbelievable. They literally just prove my point that if you automate your investments and savings, you will learn to live without that money.

In my experience, over 90% of people who automate their investments do not miss that money after three months. and you are not an exception. In Emily and John's case, they're investing hundreds every month. In fact, they used to have $4,000 a month more, and when that money went away, they didn't really miss it.

Forget about the numbers themselves. Maybe you don't have $4,000 sitting around the couch cushions. It's the principle here that matters. If you set up automatic savings and investments, and you don't even see the money coming into your account, you will not miss it. So automate your money. Get chapter five of my book and do it right now.

John, where are you right now? How are you feeling about the changes we made? I'm feeling good. I was very discouraged when we were looking at the fixed costs. Yeah. And just like, I feel like our mortgage isn't too bad. We only own one car.

But if we do move farther away, now we need a second car. The parking comes back. So that was very discouraged. But I do feel a lot better. I think we could do a lot better with everything else money. I know we can. I know we're just wasting us.

Okay, great. Emily? Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with what John just said. I also was staring at those fixed costs. Like, I don't know. Like, I admittedly was just like, Remy just tell us. Like, I don't know. It seemed a little impossible.

But I feel like, still a little like, right, we're going to like put this money in the investments account. We're going to, you know, do that. Like, I still feel like there's so much to learn. Like, we both have bad habits, right? We've established that. I've not been insulting myself. I'm just being honest.

We both have bad habits with money. And so I want us both to support each other to break them. I'm nervous because of our habits. We need to, we really need to be brave. you need to commit to it then. I think we're saying and it sounds really great and I really hope that both of us are like when the time comes down to it, it's not that like,

oh, well, let's go. Like, let's... This is the time, right? Yeah, it is. You're right, it is. And I'm ready to do that. Are we both ready to do that? Like, I am. Are you too?

I'm ready as I'll ever be. Okay. I see thousands and thousands of couples. I see a lot. And the action that you've taken, even though you're in your mid-30s and you're kind of just starting to learn about money, you're moving at such a faster rate than many other people. Remember the rich life vision that you talked about? Yes. What is that?

How does this get you that? If I cut down on those and start investing properly, I could have these things I would like. Yep. As your income and your net worth increases, you're probably going to add on travel places that you want to go. you get to have a totally different conversation. It's not like, oh, we're just going here because we're bored or like, let's get a weekend away. It's like, what would make this trip magical? And I think that is a totally different conversation when it comes to travel that the two of you get to have. Emily, look at that smile. I'm excited for that already. There's one last thing. Your son's

two years old. By the time he's four or five, what do you want him to notice about his parents when it comes to money. I just want them to feel secure and not have to worry about... I mean, if five, he won't be worrying, but I don't want to... We don't own it now, but I don't want to be like fighting

all the money or anything like that. Tell me about this secure comment. I really love it. How would you know that your son felt secure about money at five? Make it seven. Just never worrying about

like... he can't do things that kids in the school going like I'm not saying you have to do everything but I don't know

I'm not sure that's secure what would you say to him about money so that he felt secure maybe try to explain to him like the

with like you need to put everything start saving as young as you can so I don't know never had this conversation when you're a kid right no

neither of you no never Yeah. I could see the struggle, but I love watching you think about it. Emily, is it tough to hear? No, it just is this realization that like, again, like, I want to be that person and I want to do those things. And I'm, I just don't know we even know how to start. I wouldn't even know how to. But you're here. You showed up. You got the book. You did your own version of the CSP. You're asking to learn things that weren't taught to you. I love that. This to me is my favorite kind of conversation of everything I get. to do. You're giving me a gift. Some of the things you could say would be, come sit down with mommy or daddy. I need your help. We're going to push this button. This pays the bills so that we can eat the delicious food that we eat in our house.

That's a real simple example. Really simple. Push a button. It's fun. Maybe a little older saying something like, we're always going to have a roof over our heads. We're always going to be a family. We save our money so that we can always be safe together. That's all a young kid needs to hear. How do you think your son would react if he heard that? I don't know why that made me emotional imagining that and feeling so happy to be able to say those things.

Thank you for those examples. That's exactly the type of parents we want to be. And it just, we just don't know. We didn't know how or we didn't know that. I would love to say those things to him. I feel 100% confident that you're going to be able to say those to him in just a few years. We actually just heard from them right before this episode was released. Here's what they said.

Emily, what surprised me is how simple finances can be. Since finding Ramit's podcast and starting this new journey on financial literacy, I was overwhelmed with where to begin. I have a tendency to overthink and try to plan 10 steps ahead, which prevents me from taking initial steps. Ramit made me realize I don't need to strive for perfection while I'm learning. There will be mistakes along the way, but as long as I continue this path forward, we will be okay.

Number two, my biggest takeaway is knowing that we are on the right path to support our children with their own financial future. I love what Rameet shared about teaching our son about money even at a young age, because not only is it possible for us to be those role models, but we already are simply because we plan to be. I'm happy and grateful that we will start this generational custom for our family. And John said, number one, I was nervous about Rameet's view on our financial situation and was pleasantly surprised to learn that we are not as worse off than I expected. I know we have a lot to learn and unlearn, but I felt encouraged by the end of our session, feeling more motivated than ever.

Number two, my biggest takeaway is that financial stability can be achieved by anyone. I used to accept that being financially successful wasn't in the cards for me because this is the mindset I was taught growing up. Ramit helping me realize that like anything else, you can always learn new things. Thank you for helping to open this door for us. I want to thank Emily and John for having this very candid conversation and for wanting to change the trajectory of the way that they treat money in their family. I wish them the best and I'd like to remind you, number one, I have a podcast newsletter coming out this Saturday. You can only get it by being on the list and I do not send it out again.

Go to IWT.com slash podcast newsletter to get this week's brand new email. on money psychology. And second, I would love it if you could go over to Apple podcasts and leave a written review. It really helps, and it helps other people discover this podcast. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach You to Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library. and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You to Be Rich system into your personal finances.