Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 175. “I make 5x my bf’s salary—but I’m about to lose my job”

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Mindy is a 39-year-old software consultant. Victor is a 25-year-old boxing gym owner. They have fundamentally different views on money, and it’s causing tension in their relationship. Mindy wants an equal partner, but Victor struggles to talk about money—and they won’t get married until they’re on the same page.   This episode is brought to you by: Trust & Will | Secure your assets and protect your loved ones. Get 10% off plus free shipping on your estate plan documents by visiting https://trustandwill.com/ramit. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT. 99designs by Vista | Get $50 off your first design contest at https://99designs.com/ramit. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Our Place | Use code RAMIT to receive 10% sitewide at https://fromourplace.com.  Links mentioned in this episode • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Pre-order my upcoming book: Money for Couples • Get my no-numbers journal Connect with Ramit • Pre-order my upcoming book: Money for Couples • Get the Podcast Newsletter and exclusive Q&A about the show • Sign up to attend a live event on my book tour • Get Money Coaching with Ramit  • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years.

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Meet Victor and Mindy. I feel like Victor is a dreamer and I'm more of like a realist. I'm more complacent. I just like see money as something that comes and goes. Mindy is 39, Victor is 25 and they have fundamentally different views on money. I don't do crazy spending. I don't buy myself. Nothing crazy.

I would travel four or five times a year. make my own schedule, take a vacation. I can afford whatever I want to do. He wants a simple life. She explicitly does not want a simple life. I feel like it's just not working for me. We need a compromise. I feel like she deserves more, you know?

I want to provide. Are there age and income differences too big to overcome? I feel like I'm carrying most of the weight. You're not teammates. You two have not earned the trust to combine your finances. This is not a functioning. relationship with money right now. Welcome to the Money for Couples show, formerly known as the IWT podcast.

On today's episode, we'll talk with Mindy and Victor. She's a 39-year-old software consultant, and he's a 25-year-old owner of a boxing gym. They see money very differently, and it's causing tension in their relationship. As a quick reminder, if you're listening to this on a podcast app, please remember to check out our YouTube channel where you can watch these episodes in full, including their body language and facial expressions, which I find especially interesting. And if you watch on YouTube, click subscribe to make sure you get all of our new videos. Maybe two months ago we sat down because I was trying to help him kind of put things on paper

because I asked questions like, you know, what does your money situation look like this month? And, you know, budgeting questions. Like, do you know how much you're making? Do you know how much you're spending? You know, stuff like that. Because I write these things down. I track these things, but he doesn't. And then he has his own business.

So I was asking, you know, like how many clients do you have, you know, we were talking about it because he was getting basically kind of kicked out of the gym that he was at. And he had to find another place. So we were making a list of clients and how, like, are they to stay stick with him or you know maybe just not come back or whatever do you get nervous talking about money yeah you do why i do because it's so not talked about like that's not i i grew up just not we don't talk about money at all and in this relationship in this relationship we do I feel like I initiate the conversations. Otherwise, I feel like I wouldn't know anything.

I think we should talk about money every week and this or maybe every couple of weeks, at least once a month to get an idea of what the month looks like. I don't know. And do you do that? We don't. We don't. How come? Well, because we get into an argument, I feel like Victor gets defensive.

right? And I feel like it just escalates where it doesn't need to be because I feel like, and maybe it's my tone of how I'm asking too, it's like attacking or it's like, why haven't you done X, Y, and Z? And like, you should do it my way, let's say. But I'm learning that, you know, everybody has their own way. But I feel like I've been observing enough long. enough that I know his method is not working, so I'm trying to offer a better solution.

Can you think of a specific example where you brought up money and then Victor got defensive? Where were you? And what happened in that conversation? I asked him, probably are you going to be able to make the rent this month? And something along those lines. And he gave me an answer like, yeah, I'll figure it out. I'll find a way, you know, it's like the money will be there. Don't worry about it. Don't ask anything else. And I'm like, well, okay, did your clients, everyone pay you on time?

And then I start asking more questions. So like, did everyone pay you on time? And I'm trying to make calculations in my mind. And then he's like, oh, it's just like, stop asking. And how did that conversation end? I am changing the subject and I just shut my mouth and that's it and don't ask again. Is that typical when you talk about money? Yes.

Okay. So like when that happens and you asked the question, are you going to have the rent? What are you really asking there? I feel like I want security to know that like, okay, whatever he is. contributing is like okay because I obsess over money so my obsession takes over to him and then I want to know like okay is his portion okay or am I going to need to move some things around in order to cover him or whatever it is like I'm always nervous Victor do you remember that conversation where Mindy came to you and said are you going to have the rent this month? Yeah

Okay. What happened in that conversation? I was like a little bit stressed because I have like clients that haven't paid yet. And it's like I'm trying to get the money and blah, blah. So I just came out a little bit like a rude and I didn't want to like talk about it. And I feel like I felt a little bit like under attack. And I was like in a defense move. you know, defense mode. For me, it's a little bit weird talking about money.

I always feel like I'm doing something wrong. I feel like Victor is a dreamer, and I'm more of like a realist. Oh. He is like, oh, I can just imagine myself with all these gyms and all these things. And, you know, it's like, that's great, but how are you going to get there, you know? And like, let's put that into action and how. do you want to do that? And it's kind of like, then we kind of talk about things, but we don't really dive deeper and say, you know, what are the steps that are needed? You know, what does that

look like on paper? What does that look like monetarily? He is a dreamer, but he's also much more riskier than I am. He takes way more risks. Okay. So, especially with money and everything, he just went for it, you know. But I feel like I'm the security net, you know, the unseen like security net, because I was always the one with the, you know, steady paycheck, you know, regular, you know, nine to five job. And he just always wanted to open a gym. Do you catch the dynamic here? Mindy obsesses about money and then chase. is Victor to get an answer from him. He avoids her first by reassuring her, it's going to be fine, it's fine, and then he just gets defensive. This is the chaser avoider dynamic in relationships.

By the way, this thing where one partner reassures the other honestly drives me crazy. Like if my wife came to me worried about our investments, which she would never do because we talk about money regularly, I could legitimately reassure her because I know what I'm talking about. But the people who reassure their partners are always the least knowledgeable about money. They're the ones who avoid money and then they go, it's going to be fine. How on earth can you reassure someone about a topic you know nothing about? Let's dig into their backgrounds. Mindy is older than Victor and she's more established in her career. Listen to her describe her journey. I was able to afford everything on my own. As a woman, it's like,

My mom always said, both my parents, they always told me, you know, like, just make sure you're good on your own. You don't need a man to support you, just do everything. Like they pushed all of us. I have two brothers, but I'm the only daughter. So, and my culture is very, I don't know, different. But what culture is that? I'm Lebanese. Lebanese, okay.

So you were proud that you were earning money and you were able to pay for your own expenses. Then Victor moved in and Victor assured you he can cover things. So Victor came in. He started paying for proportionally for rent and other expenses. So that must have felt even better, right? At first, I feel like I didn't charge him rent, maybe for the first like two, three months, like not much, just so he can get on his feet. But after that, at the point where he started paying rent regularly, I was like, yeah, this feels great because now I have...

Extra. Whatever amount it was. Extra money that I can put into savings and I can start investing. Walk me through that time where you felt good about money till now. What's changed? Well, I'm losing my job at the end of October. When I didn't know I was getting laid off and everything was going great and I was investing, I was saving, I was doing everything that I thought to be right.

and then it just felt like it got pulled from underneath me. So you know the date that you're going to be let go, which is how many months from now? About two months. Two months. Okay. All right. So you know that's going to happen. Do you have another job lined up?

No. Got it. So your income is going to go to zero, right? Well, yeah, basically. Okay. That's scary. but I want to take a look at the finances to understand what that means.

Victor, what do you think about this? The fact that Mindy's going to get laid off in two months. I feel like a job is never secure and you can never feel like secure like having any type of job. Like when you're working for someone, you know, if it doesn't work for them,

they can just like lay you off, you know? Do you two think you see money the same way? I think of money as spending, you know. But that's a little interesting because you told me that at a certain point, you were investing a lot. You had a big smile, a lot of pride when you were saying that. Yeah. I think that's like the people pleaser in me.

I feel like I'm not good enough. Like that's just a thing. It's like I'm not doing enough. So I got to push a little more. I got to do a little more. And then it's never going to be enough. So it's like I'm never, I've never reached a point where. you know, I'm like, okay, now I can sit back and relax.

Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. Just guess the average wait time to see a doctor in the United States. I'm not talking about a specialist, just a regular standard family doctor. Do you think it's a week, two weeks? Nope, it's over 30 days. So a lot of times, whatever symptoms you have are going to be gone or maybe worse by the time you get to that appointment. I don't want you to have to wait weeks to see a doctor. I want you to get seen faster by an in-network doctor using ZocDoc.

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Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com slash remit to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash remit. Zocdoch.com slash remit, and I want to thank Zocdoch for sponsoring this message. There's a pretty cool TikTok trend going around right now that I really love. It's called admin nights. Basically, you get your friends together, you get some snacks, maybe some drinks, and you do all the infrastructure stuff in life that most of us skip over. If you're going to set up an admin night, here's my suggestion for you.

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Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zoc-D-C-com slash Rameet to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z-O-C-D-C-com slash Rameet. Zok-D-D-com slash Rame. And I want to thank Zok-D-D-C for sponsoring this message. Now, back to the show. Coming back to the question of how you see money versus how Vick-R-R-E Victor sees money. How does Victor see money? I don't know how to explain it. Like, it's just whatever. It's just nothing. It's no big deal. It comes, goes. It's all good. You know, I'll make more. There's no real, like, seriousness about it. Because he's in general, a more carefree person and he's just not worried about the little minute details, you know. It's just like,

are you? I am very. You're in the spreadsheet, you're checking transactions, you're logging into your app every day, that kind of thing. Yeah. Victor,

do you think you see money differently than Mindy does? I do feel like I see money differently. Tell me. I think just how she said, like I'm a little bit more, I'm more complacent.

I feel like. you know and it might be because like the way I grew up you know um I'm complacent with what I have you know like I don't do crazy spending you know like I don't buy myself nothing crazy um and I don't I don't feel like I need that to be happy you know um and yeah like I just like see money as like something that comes and goals you know It's like, it's always a roller coaster for me, I feel like. Okay, that's illuminating. And how do you think that Mindy sees money?

I feel like she is very serious when it comes to money, very like straightforward. We totally see the money differently. I see money as like happiness and freedom. I feel like that's my goal. You know, like my happy life, my, what I say? My happy life or my rich life? Yeah, that's my rich life.

Like, just being able to be free, have time for myself and my friends. Do you think that you can live a successful, happy, rich life together with your different views on money? No. I don't think so. I feel like, you know, we have to be in the same page a little bit, you know, you know. Like I have to get there. Like, you know, like I have to be at the same level as her, you know, so I can like be able to afford, you know, more for her and for me.

But like I don't need much, you know. But I feel like I'm always in a hurry. And, you know, we are in two different parts in our lives, you know. She's like 13 years older than me. So she have already like, I feel like she already like passed like all her 20s and all that. You know, I'm still trying to figure it out. And which is not bad. I kind of like the fact that I am like, I have a little bit like a fire on the.

my you know and I feel like yeah it's that's how I feel you know that I want to get there for her and for me well I'm a little confused because you said that money comes and goes you said I don't need much I don't really need much I feel like I need to make more money for her so that we're at an equal level. So those are all mutually exclusively. Mindy and Victor obviously see money totally differently. Take the fact that Mindy's about to lose

her job. She knows it. She's talking about it. She's concerned about it. Victor's response is, well, a job is never secure. That's actually a very common way of thinking for people who grew up poor, especially men who grew up poor. Now, I don't yet know if Victor

grew up poor, but this is a pattern I've noticed where a man will simply say, it happens. That's why you got to work hard. It's this idea that you're always going to be facing hardship. So why are we even talking about this? Just put your head down and grind. I've seen this many times on this podcast. And Mindy is saying, hey, we don't actually have to face that hardship if we plan together. I think we should take a look at the conscious spending plan and that will help us, it'll certainly help me understand what's going on here. Can you read the word in bold and the full number next to it for each of these entries under net worth? Okay. So assets, 33,000.

Investments, 46,000, 678, savings, 25,000, 255, 255, and debt is 29,000. 341. So a total net worth of 75,592. What do you think of those numbers? They're very low. Oh, how do you know that? It's not what I imagined having at my age, but I shouldn't, I'm not surprised because I just started investing and saving a lot. So. Okay. Okay. What about you? What do think, Victor? I feel like it's lower her, but for me, like, you know, like I haven't, I don't know nothing about like investments or nothing. She's been talking to me about it since like she found you.

And she's been talking to me about like that I should start like saving money and all that. And yeah. Do you listen? Like, no, I don't. To be honest. I don't. Okay. I liked the honesty.

Yeah. That's okay. That's like 95% of my readers anyway. They don't even listen to me. All right. Let's go to the income part. I found this particularly interesting. Victor, read this combined monthly income.

What's this number here? $14,707. Yeah. Per month. So that's $176,000 a year is what the two of you make. Did you know that, first of all? No, we didn't know that. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Yet again, proving that at least 50% of the people I talk to do not even know how much money they make. Can I just say, like, you two are unmarried. You've been together for six years, I believe, right? Yeah. Okay. Did you combine your finances or no? No.

Together you make $176,000. Does that seem like a lot or a little? Or it means a lot. It's decent. For me, it's like not enough. For where we live. What's enough? That's the question.

I don't know. There is no enough. Ever? I mean, maybe when I'm starting to make, you know, $300,000 a year, that would be nice. Then maybe I'll be happy. Have you ever listened to anyone on this freaking podcast? Yes.

I literally scour the earth to find multi-millionaires. Just so I can ask them one single question, is it enough? And then what do they always say? Tell me. No. No, it's never enough. It doesn't feel like enough.

I go, I've told you. I know. The amount you make is uncorrelated to whatever. And then I get mad because I'm like, I would be fine with that. I wish I had that. Do you know how many people are going to listen to this and say, if I made $176,000 a year, I would have so much extra money left over. I would never worry about it.

Never cross your mind. No, I know that those people exist. But where do they live, you know? Where do they live? I said to her at some point, I'm like, I do feel like I can make a, A little bit more if we like bring down the rent or something, you know, so we can move to somewhere else cheaper, you know. Your rent is like nothing.

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Like, oh, if we lowered our rent, your rent is already relatively low, especially for your area. That's not the problem. Your income is actually high. Sure, you could make more, but it's not simply that. And if we look at your fixed costs, let's just take a look. What is that number next to the fixed cost, Victor?

What's this number right here? 20, wait, 56%. Yeah, that's your fixed cost, 56%. So typically I like to see that number between 50 to 60%. You guys are right down the middle, 56%. So your fixed costs are totally within parameters. That means it's not like you're overspending on anything crazy. and I looked through this.

Your housing costs are fine. In fact, I would say they're good. Your car payment's a little high. We could talk about that, but it's nothing absolutely crazy. You know, everything is like pretty reasonable. So there's nothing that's crazy here. Okay?

What the problem occurs when we go down the CSP. Your investments are at zero. That's a problem because it means you're not getting ahead. Okay? The only place true wealth is created is in this category. investments and you have zero. I know you have some 401k, that's great. I'm happy for that, but at $176,000, theoretically, if you want to be getting ahead, you could be doing a little more. Your savings are at 27%. That's pretty high. And I, you know, we can talk about where the money's

going, but there's certainly margin to be played with or there's money to go around. And then you have your guilt-free spending at 18%. Is this number accurate or not? What do you spend $1,700 a month on? Eating out mostly. Okay, so eating out, what else? I do some shopping. I buy like a few things here and there. Okay, fine. Victor will buy himself a pair of sneakers once in a while.

All right, so that number is pretty accurate. Fine. Yeah. Can I just tell you something? Let me ask a couple more questions first. This debt you have $29,000. What kind of debt is that? It's both our car loans.

And... I think that's it. And Victor's like a couple of thousand dollars of debt to the IRS and CTDRS. Let me tell you what I see. Yeah. I see a high income. I see your fixed cost number is within parameters. So I have no comments on how you're spending.

In fact, I think your housing costs are good, especially for your area. I think the CSP looks like a pretty healthy CSP. we then have to ask the next question, what are the problems? Well, if you were 25 years old, I would say, well, Victor, you are 25 years old. If both of you were 25 years old, I would say, keep going. You're doing great. Invest a little bit. You're good.

Because, Mindy, you're, I think, 39 years old. We will want to calculate, are you investing enough? How much? All that stuff. And obviously, we want to be putting more money towards that. But the real thing that stands out to me is the income disparity. Mindy, you're making $12,300,300 bucks a month. Victor, you're making $1,500 a month or so.

If you both decide that this is how, this is fine, this is how it's going to be, then you have a working CSP. All the numbers work out, it's fine. But I don't think that's really the problem. do you? I think the problem is that you two see money completely differently. You don't talk about it. Victor, you don't have the curiosity to get engaged with money

because your view is money comes, money goes, it's no big deal. If something happens, we'll figure it out. And Mindy, you're saying, I need security. I need to know certain answers and I need a partner in this. I can't be the one doing it on my own. Exactly. We have several things going on here. We have, Mindy, you're the worrier.

You worry about money. In fact, even when your CSP looks good, you never actually just came out and said, oh, this is good. You just worry about it. You focus right on what's wrong with it. What is this? The Lebanese upbringing? Probably. Are you guys the same as Indian people?

It's like, what's wrong? You never like, oh, we did a great job. It's like, ah, f***. It's like you can do better. Like straight A's. Yeah, okay. Yeah, you're the same. We're the same.

Okay, I get it. same. Okay, so there's that, which it's good because it makes you achieve. I mean, you're earning a lot of money. It's amazing. You probably thank your parents for teaching you about that. But also, you're never going to feel good about your accomplishments because you never feel adequate. You never feel enough. Okay. By the way, do we have the two cultures least likely to be found seeing a therapist on this call right now, a Puerto Rican and a Lebanese woman. What is it? Have you ever been within 20 miles of a therapist? Tell me the truth. I've had a therapist for years. What? No way. Okay, amazing. Okay, I applaud. And Victor, what about you?

Absolutely not. Just like, I just punched the bag and, you know, let out of it. Now, that is funny. Okay. Okay. Interesting. So to go back to it, Mindy, you, you constantly feel inadequate about money, even though in many ways you've accomplished some really impressive things, okay? Sure, there are things we can work on, but if you can't ever feel good about money, it'll be hard to spend more time, and it will certainly be hard to create a healthy culture in your household around money. I joked around with them about all of our cultures, but I do feel grateful to be able to understand

multiple perspectives on money, especially as someone who grew up the son of immigrants in America. The cultural beliefs that we grow up with are rarely written down somewhere, but they are pervasive and they are deeply held and they affect the way that we relate to money for our entire lives. I am curious to know more about Victor's background when it comes to money. Before we get to that, let's take a quick break to support our sponsors. I talk a lot about the $3 versus $30,000 questions that so many of us are obsessed with. And that same principle applies to kids, too. It's really easy to get caught up in the small stuff.

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Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Just guess the average wait time to see a doctor in the United States. I'm not talking about a specialist, just a regular standard family doctor. You think it's a week, two weeks? Nope, it's over 30 days. So a lot of times whatever symptoms you have are going to be gone or maybe worse by the time you get to that appointment. I don't want you to have to wait weeks to see a doctor. I want you to get seen faster by an in-network doctor using Zocdoc.

Zocdog is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have over 150,000 doctors across all 50 states in 200 plus specialties, including mental health, dental, primary care, whatever you need. Just filter for doctors based on insurance, location, ratings, even virtual care options. And Zoc Doc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. You can look through your options, book an appointment, and you are done. If I needed to find a new doctor today, Zoc Doc is what I would use.

Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoch.com slash remit to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's ZOC, doc, dot com slash remit. Zokdoch.com slash remit. And I want to thank Zokdoch for sponsoring this message. Let's get back into our conversation with Victor and Mindy. Okay. Victor, did you grow up poor? I cannot say that I grew up poor.

I felt like as a very young child, I have it all. Yeah. Because of my grandparents. They used to like, you know, like take care of us. And then something happened like where he did like a bad business and he lost pretty much everything, you know. Uh-oh. And then who did that? Your grandfather?

His grandfather. Yeah. Yeah, my grandpa, and then I felt like, you know, like that stuck with me. And that's why I see, like, I think that's why I have that view of like when it comes and goes, you know. It's very insightful. Yeah. It's interesting. In families, things will happen.

Like, there will be some alcoholic uncle or aunt and that will get past, the stories of that person will get passed down. And interestingly, people often react in totally different ways. Some people will go, I'm never starting a business. Uncle Joe lost everything. I'm never starting a business. Others will go, I'm going to start a business and I'm going to make it work. In your case, Victor, you're starting a business, but you're also saying, eh, maybe it works, maybe not.

I'll figure it out. Now, guess what? If you were 25 years old as you are and you were solo independent, that's fine. You probably would figure it out. The thing is you are living together with somebody who's 39 years old and who has said she wants what? I need to like learn new ways and not stay stuck in the same all me, you know? So what would that look like? I found a job and I'm one of the.

be working during the day. And then, like, in the afternoons, where my gym is, like, the most full, I will be making more because, like, the business that I am in, I'm going to be working as security in school. So I want to talk to all the Latino parents, you know, and try to get all the kids from my school into my gym and make more money, you know. Okay. All right. That sounds like a plan.

What do you think about that? Mindy? I like it. And the reason I like it is because he went back to having some kind of steady income. So at least at the minimum, we know that he has his paychecks coming in from the security job. And then everything from the business, whether it's a slow month or whatever, then that could be extra. Let's fast forward six months, 12 months. You know, you're making 60, 70, 90K when you combine everything approximately.

What's it going to take for you to actually both feel like a team? Exactly the question I ask myself. I want to be on the same page. I want to work as a team. I want to build something together. You know, I feel like I'm very. independent and it's like I always have in the back of my mind like just take care of yourself like as long as I'm good I'll be fine you know because if anything can happen but like I know we're going

to be together for a very long time hopefully until we die so you know I like I want us to start thinking about what does our future look like, you know, what will make him happy? What would make me happy? If you had a magic wand for your own life, let's just start with yourself first. What would you each want in your life? What would your rich life be? Victor? Mine will be being able to, I feel like, pursue my career as a boxer. have enough money to cover everything and cover my career because, you know, an athlete is a whole business. And I think I'm getting old, so I don't know if it's going to happen. So, like, that's why I open a gym so I can do it for other people.

And, you know, have time for Mindy and, you know, going on vacation so often when she wants to go because she loves to travel. And I'm more like a routine guy. So I would like to have a couple of gyms, have my routine, and you know, here and there whenever like I want, just go for a flight with her, you know? Okay. I love to travel, like he said. I would ideally travel at least four five times a year.

You know, every month or two, I want to be on a plane. Ideally, I'd love to just see the world. and soak it all in. I also want to make my own schedule in terms of work. And then when I want to take a vacation, I can take one and not worry that, you know, I'll have the money in the bank. I can just pick where I want to go and go and not have to worry about anything. Just know that I can afford whatever I want to do.

I like it. What about together? I would like to travel together, even though he'd, doesn't quite like traveling that much because I feel like he just wants to come back so badly and just be in his routine. I'm comfortable. I don't really, I don't think we have any plans to buy a house, maybe eventually, you know, buy a house in Puerto Rico. Just having a simple life, like, at least for me, like having a simple life, just like a routine and everything is covered of. I don't have to stress about anything and just like do my thing. Okay. Would you agree, Mindy,

do you want a simple life? I don't want a simple life. That to me is the issue. Yeah. You want a simple life, Victor, and I believe you. I believe you. You're like, I don't need anything fancy. I don't want to travel that much.

I want a simple life. What's going on, Mindy? I notice you looking down. What are you thinking right now? I don't, I get bored. I don't like routine. I mean, I like the comfort of a routine. but I'm a Gemini.

I want to explore. I want to be out there. It's so much better, as you know, when you are both rowing in the same direction versus both of you going opposite directions. So my question is, is it possible for you to go in the same directions or not? I think it is.

Okay. How? I think it is too. How? Tell me. I like the consistency that Victor has and offers me. He grounds me. I'm all over the place.

I want to do everything and anything. And he kind of, you know, helps me just reel it in and just focus. And, you know, I look at him as an example. Just, you know, he's so content with just the littlest things. And although that's not what I want for myself, I appreciate the little things. But I have that. inside of me to like just want to do more for myself. What do you wish he understood about money?

And what do you wish he did differently when it comes to money? I wish he spent more time thinking about money and writing it down on paper, analyzing, you know, knowing his numbers. and I wish he, I guess, valued more of the things that I value. He says, oh, I want to make all this money, but why do you want to make it? I mean, he's not even sure why he wants to make it, I feel. And I feel like he's doing it for me and that's not the reason to do something is for himself. Is there gender things for Puerto Rican men, Victor? Like, are you supposed to be the higher earner?

Maybe it's not about like a Puerto Rican thing. It's just like more about like me wanting to do something for my wife, you know? Like being able to afford everything and, you know, and so she can just like relax, which I know she doesn't want to. But like at least in the back. at her head, like, know that she's safe. That's how I, that's like, I feel like,

that's why I want to, like, earn more money. We all grow up with these gender roles. I get it. At the same time, it also makes me sad because I think you're more than a provider. I can see it on Mindy's face. Mindy, what are you feeling right now? She's taking a second to use some tissues.

Take your time, Mindy. I, that makes me sad. That makes me really sad. Only thinks of himself as like why he can provide and why he can, you know, how much money he can bring him to the table. But that's, it's like not even about that. It's so much more. That's the least important thing that you offer.

You know, he's such an amazing human being. He's always happy. He's always there to help his friends. And like, anybody who needs it, no matter how tired he is. He's just a wonderful person to be around, and that's why we've been together this long. It's crazy that I still feel like, you know, it's not enough. I know, isn't that crazy?

It's like this thing that's inside of you, and you can hear Mindy saying it over and she's crying, and you're still like, oh, that's so nice, and I need to make more money. But let's also remember Mindy, I think you also said you'd like to have safety and security. And you also said you don't think that $176,000 household income combined is enough. Is there a future where the two of you are comfortable that Mindy earns five, six times what Victor earns and you're both okay with that? I feel like she like deserves more, you know, and she can make way more.

It's just like I want to like, I want to make more. I just want to make more. I want to provide. Great. What Mindy is looking for is more than just income. Okay. It is you being a partner in the relationship. Not necessarily 50, 50 earnings.

It's not that. It's getting educated about money because there's a whole language you don't understand about money right now and you can understand it. It's totally achievable. It's getting curious about money and saying like, hey, the way I grew up,

money comes, money goes. That was the last chapter of my life. But for this chapter, this unit, this family we're building, I want to approach it differently. Like how do other people approach it? How do different people in different parts of life approach it? it's getting curious.

It's saying, tell me what your dreams are. And it's talking about money and dreams together. Okay? So the money part, sure, earn a little bit more. I think you should. But that's not what she's actually asking for. I don't think Mindy's saying you have to be all in. In fact, I don't think almost anybody wants to be all in with personal finance.

You have to be a real freak to want to do that. But getting like 85% of the way there means read a couple books, listen to the occasional podcast, talk about money every couple of weeks in a healthy meeting where you both know what time you're going to talk. That's 85% of the way there. What do you think about that? Could you do that, Victor? Yeah, for sure.

100%. Like if she got hit by a bus, you need to know how your money works. Right now that wouldn't happen, right? You'd be in trouble if that happened right now. Yeah, thousand percent. The real elephant in the room is that they want different things. He wants a simple life. She explicitly does not want a simple life.

She wants to travel. He doesn't. I don't know if that can be reconciled. But rather than tackling that, that major real issue, they've talked in circles about things like, maybe I'll feel better when I have $300,000. Maybe these two are just in different places in life. Or maybe they see money differently

and they will see it differently forever. But I personally think it's important to tackle the real issue not to dance around it. So can they get on the same page? We'll find out after this short break. Why is it that people who tell me I'm stupid on social media I'll always have the profile picture of a jar of mustard. You think I'm going to take your advice about investing

when your username is Pontiac Plummer 48? No, thank you. Instead, I trust professionals when I need help with my business like you can do using Gelt this coming tax season. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps you take control of your tax strategy ahead of time. They'll help you think strategically, like how to structure your business,

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Mindy, the question for you is, what are your expectations and what happens if your expectations are not met? I don't like to have expectations because I don't want to be disappointed, you know? So I try not to expect much. I put it on myself. And I just raise the bar even higher for myself because it's like I just don't want to trust. that someone can like meet that expectation or demand that someone meets that expectation. What do you think about that as you say it out loud? It's crazy.

I mean, I don't know. I guess I should really think about that because maybe I should demand. But then how do you like what are the consequences, you know? You tell me. I don't know. The only consequence I can think of is that we don't end up together. This doesn't resolve itself or that we can't be together as a team. Not so much as a couple, you know, love is great and all, but it only takes you so far.

Like I want to be, I keep talking about this. Like I want to be a functioning team. And I tell him all the time, like, like, like, step up your game because, you know, I don't want to be carrying your weight. Like, we're a team. We got to, like, move forward, you know. And does that ever work? No, it hasn't, really.

Yeah. I like that you had the insight to recognize that you don't set expectations because you're afraid to be disappointed. Instead, you take it on yourself. And that leads to an ever spiraling difference in where the two you are. I see how both of you view money and yourselves. And I see that if you want to be a team, you could be. You really could be. It does not mean you have to both earn the same amount of income. That's not the case. I never went to my wife and said, I expect you to earn the same money I do.

Never said that. But I did have expectations. And those expectations were things like, we're both going to be involved in the finances. You're going to know a lot about money because one day if I get hit by a bus, I want you to be extremely savvy with money. I need you to be a good steward of our money. I want to have a partner because sometimes I need help.

And it's honestly just more fun. So I need us to be together on this. We're going to be talking about it. We're going to be sharing some of the responsibilities. And those were my expectations. It took a lot of work for my wife. She had to learn a lot and she had to work on her own money psychology. And then I had to learn how to communicate more effectively.

This went on for years. Still sometimes we totally disagree about it. But it has come a long way where if something happened to me, me, I know she would be totally good with the finances. That's literally how I've been feeling. I just haven't been able to say it in words, you know. I feel like I'm carrying most of the weight when it comes to money and, you know, being on track, knowing when to pay bills.

And I'm trying to control everything because I feel out of control myself. Yes. Like you said it yourself, love sometimes is not enough. It's like, hey, we're putting a business partnership together. Right. Anyone who's listening who's basically not from India, Lebanon, anywhere. They're like, what the fuck is this guy talking about a business relationship? So sick.

So unromantic. What about Cinderella? Have you ever heard of a f***? It's not a prince. It is the relationship. It is the business of running a household. What if we have to buy? house. What if somebody gets sick? What if somebody dies taking care of elderly parents? That is a business

and we need to be pragmatic about it. You agree, Mindy? 100%. All right. Let's be pragmatic right now then. You've been beating your head against the wall for six years trying to control how he does certain things. Has it worked? No. The reason that you are not willing to loosen control and to be clear about expectations is that you know if you actually set expectations, there's a risk that he might not meet them. And then the question is, what are you going to do about it? I don't know what the answer is. Is it, that's it, breaking up because the business partnership didn't work. You know, it just doesn't make sense to me. Why? Because at the end of the day, like, there's more to it. It's not all about money.

This is the hardest conversation to have with couples when it's clear that they don't see money the same and they might never see it the same way. And at that point, the only thing to do is to help them decide what they want in their rich life and to set expectations. If you fit into my vision, amazing. But if not, it doesn't make you a bad person, but maybe we're just not the right fit. And I have to tell you, this is really hard to hear. I think a lot of us have been in relationships where we know it might not be a fit,

but we don't want to talk about that difficult conversation. So we dance around it. Like how Mindy is saying she wants him to be a partner, she wants him to make more money, but then she also says it's not all about money and I don't want to break up. She's confused, Victor's confused, I'm confused. But I also know that this is human nature. We don't always know what we want. We don't always operate on a logical basis from a spreadsheet.

So I have to say, I have a lot of compassion for both of them. I hope you do too. I feel like secure in one part, but then in the other I feel like insecure, whereas like I don't know how much money. Like do I have to make? I don't know how much like a experience do I have to get. I don't know how much, you know. It's not about how much money, but it's definitely a lot. about how much effort and how much willingness you have to learn these things.

And, you know, I can't hold your hand. You need to just know that this is what you need to do. The question is, if this continues, this dynamic you have between the two of you for the next 20, 30, 40 years, will you be okay with it? Absolutely not. Sometimes we have to set expectations first just for us because it sends a signal. I have high expectations. I'm worth it. And then the people around us, sometimes they meet those expectations.

And sometimes they don't. I'm not saying anybody has to kick anybody to the curb. That's not the point of this. I want you to have a really healthy relationship around money. But I can tell you what doesn't work. is trying to control your partner, is using phrases like step up, is giving mixed messages.

Like, it's not about the money, but also I need you to earn more money. All these things are the opposite of just setting a clear expectation and then seeing if the person lives up to it or not, but knowing if they don't, what are you willing to do about it? What do you want from me?

I have a bit. I want a partner who's there by my side, not behind me, not in front of me, by my side. I guess what I want is for you to be proactive about your finances, you know, be in control of what you're making, you know, what your expenses are, that you have a business, commit to, you know, watching one podcast a week and reading the book. And then I want also to have at least once a month meetings about how does the month look like for us? Where, you know, where do we need help? Where do we need support from each other? And, you know, those are things that I feel like I would want you to commit to.

Okay. I promise I will do my best. What does your best look like? I'm going to read the book. I'm going to, like, and I'm not sure going to read it to read it, you know. Obviously, like, I'm going to try to understand it. And I'm going to try to understand more, like, everything, you know, when it comes to my finances. I'll be pretty direct here with some specific suggestions.

If you're running a business in a household, then it's your responsibility to report regularly on your business finances. These are the kind of things that are important to a romantic partner because it affects your household finances. Another thing that I think is important is that the two of you discuss who's tracking certain numbers. You have the CSP. There's certain numbers that need to be hit, like how much you're spending on groceries, et cetera. Fortunately, you have room to play with, but who's actually tracking the amount of eating out? Right now, I bet it's nobody. No one's really keeping track of it.

Shouldn't that be somebody's job? Probably victors to take some of that load off? Now, if he does all these things, fantastic. That means more responsibility, more sharing, like celebrate all that stuff. If not, then what are you all going to do? Mindy's been sitting there saying, please, please, for the last six years, it doesn't work. Sometimes boundaries are the only thing that works. I feel like I can help her in so many ways, you know.

And I try to help her as much as I can. You're not helping in the ways that she wants to be. be helped. That's my mistake. I literally feel like I'm doing this on my own. You are. And I don't have any help. Well, you're doing it on your own in part because you have, the two of you have not built an effective strategy to work together. You're not teammates. And one of you is getting better and better. And the other one is doing their own thing, trying to get better, but doing it in their way not communicating and you're getting further and further apart. And that's why at a certain point you're like, I'm just doing this on my own. It's not a healthy financial foundation.

So first thing is you need to decide what's important to you. And the consequences could be anything from you need to track that again. I need these numbers by tomorrow. They could be, they could start to increase by like, hey, I don't think we should live together because this is not working for me the way it is. And then finally, if it's not working and you decide, like, hey, part of my rich life is knowing that I have a partner who's in it, we can't be together anymore. That's the final option. What's going to happen in two months when your income stops, Mindy? I have my emergency fund. I'm going to use some of it. Your emergency fund will currently last you about five months. What then?

I don't know. I want to take this time. Just think about what I really want to do for work and try to find a way, maybe consulting, try to find a way to make money and have a schedule that I, that I'm happy about. Can I tell you what I think a really healthy relationship with money would have said to me? Okay. They would have said, I'm a little nervous about going from my income to potentially not having a job. I feel pretty confident. It might take a while. But I know that my partner is here. and he's going, he's agreed to take on a lot of the financial weight that I've been carrying for a while.

We've already talked about it. Here's how he's going to do it. And, you know, at certain times in our lives, I'm going to earn more. At certain times, he's going to earn more. And we're both willing to be partners in this life together. Did I hear that at all? No. No.

What did I hear? Me, me, me. Almost as if you two are not in a relationship. Yeah. That's a problem. And that's why I'm like, you know, I'm trying to like step up like, you know, my business.

I got a job, you know. I like that. I like that you got a job. I like that you already have planned ahead. Victor as a guy. I think a lot of times we are not taught about certain communication techniques. So we're like,

my job is a provider. I'm going to provide. And like, that's all that needs to happen. I did what I'm supposed to do. Check. Like, leave me alone. And then the man always goes into his fucking man. I hate man caves.

Anyway, so Victor, you did this whole thing about getting a job, about XYZ. But did you say to Mindy, Mindy, I know that you've mentioned your employment is ending. I know that your income is going to go away for a while. I trust you're going to get another job. That's going to happen. But in the meantime, here's how much I'm going to be making. And I want you to know that that's going to us. That's for us.

And that's because I know that I have to take on more load right now. I'm happy to do it. Have you said that? No, I haven't. And, you know, we should totally talk more about it. We should totally talk more about the money. And, you know, and I have to get comfortable with it and stop being defensive, you know. or you know or feeling like bad because I make weight less or whatever you haven't even expressed

the fact that you know you've got this the job so that I can feel more secure I feel like I'm just on my own what I want is for you to show up to the conversation prepared meaning have you know your numbers ready if I ask you you know how much are you going to make this month how much you're going to plan on making next month. Have those numbers ready so that we can plan ahead. And okay, in October, I'm losing my job. So what does November look like for us? We should plan from now. Great job, Mindy, expressing what you need. I love that. Love that. That is crystal clear specificity. I need you to show up prepared. One little twist I want to offer is you don't, you should not be asking questions about how much he's making because what does that do? What kind of dynamic does

that set? You're the mom and he's the little boy. You got to change that dynamic. This is a professional organization. It's not mom asking questions of a little boy. No way. We are professionals operating at a high level. If you want to change the way that you interact with money, you've got to start respecting money. We've got to stop using phrase. is like, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out is just code for, I don't want to deal with this right now. Somebody someday at some point in time

will come up with the answer, but it's not going to be me. That. I want to know what's going on with my money because not because I'm obsessed with money, not because I hoard money, because money is one of the foundational elements in a relationship.

It allows you to live where you live, eat what you eat, travel where you're going to travel, take care of each other when you get sick. Before we wrap up tonight, I just want to make sure you feel like you had every chance to ask any question of me. My questions coming in were, you know, should we combine our finances? Because right now we're so disconnected. No. You two have not earned the trust to combine your finances.

This is not a functioning relationship with money right now. So how do we take the steps to get there? You need to decide what would it, first of all, what would it take for you to both feel good about money and what would it take for you to have a functioning relationship around money? It means a healthy relationship. That's where you both have skin in the game, where you both feel confident, comfortable, where you're both taking on certain things and contributing, not just financially, but also time and energy. You need to create some milestones to get there.

If that happens, we will be in the place to be able to run calculations like, are we going to have enough? How much do we need to be investing for retirement? Your CSP looks pretty good. Like, it really looks pretty healthy. A couple of tweaks, you know, if it were up to me, I would be saving a lot more right now

because you're coming into a season where your income is going to drop. I would definitely cut your guilt-free spending by a lot. I would probably make that Victor's responsibility. I would take all that money, all this vacation money, all the shopping money, and I would be putting it into an emergency fund. And I would be filling that thing up with thousands of dollars every single month right now. Thousands.

Because winter is coming. Yeah. And I would never want to be getting down to the last of my emergency. agency fund. If you're living together, there are like certain relationship questions. Are you going to get married? I think those are questions that you would want to think about before you combine finances. Do you guys know? Well, marriage to me is like a business transaction. So it's like, do I want to enter a business partnership with Victor? Well, I wouldn't right now. That's why we're not married. Okay. Really? Because of the money?

Don't you think that's kind of important? Like that is the boundary. It's like we're not getting married if we can't get our money together and if we're not getting married then what are we doing? Right. Wait, so I'm surprised

you're just agreeing with me. So then Mindy, what's the natural conclusion of that? It's like I'm just, I don't know, I'm just waiting to see. Why are you so patient with your own? life. Why not get impatient? In my opinion, it's either like, we're on the path to getting married, if that's what you want. And if so, we need to set a timeline. And here's what needs to happen

before that. Or we're not. And we probably need to call the ball on this relationship. Now, again, I'm not here. I'm not a relationship therapist. That's totally up to you. You should probably both talk to therapists. Maybe a couple's therapist, I'd highly recommend. But I'm just trying to kind of get you to both like, look at the stakes here. Get impatient. Don't just sit around and wait. Nobody's going to change this in your life except for you two. Okay.

I'm impatient. You are? I am for sure. All right. I want to make it, you know? All right. Well, I guess it will be your job to write down what you think needs to happen in your relationship and then you can check in with her and you can see and then you can execute on

it. And that'll be a good start. Oh, wow. That really caught me off guard. Let's jump right to their follow-ups and hear what they have to say. Hi, Rameit. As uncomfortable as it was to have that conversation, it really got me out of my comfort zone. And I learned that it's not so scary to talk about money.

What surprised me is that there's some... so much of our past and emotions attached to our money behaviors right now. And unpacking that was definitely, you know, something huge. You really also just helped us get to the root of our problem as a couple. And as a partnership, we're going to start small. and see where that takes us. I already see the changes happening with Victor, which is great, makes me happy.

And that's about it. Hi, Bermit, I learned a lot from this podcast. I learned about how the dynamic and our relationship was. It wasn't worth in the fact that it was very hard for me to talk about money. Now it's better. It's like I feel a little bit more secure talking about money. I learned that having a plan and following it is the way to do it.

It was a great opportunity for me and for Mindy. It's great for like our relationship. So thanks. Candidly, I'm not satisfied with those follow-ups. There are no specifics, no timelines, no boundaries, or even expectations. Maybe Mindy and Victor are simply at different places in their life. Maybe they see money differently.

Or maybe they're going to change and become partners, true teammates, which would be my dream for them. But the main lesson I want you to take away is this. Get impatient with your life. If you have a vision of a rich life, tell your partner what it is. Ask them what theirs is. If they're not willing to share,

or if they're not willing to take on the responsibility of being a financial teammate, don't give up. Use the tools in my journal and my upcoming book. But at a certain point, you have to decide what your boundaries are and what role you expect a partner to play in your rich life. I want to thank Mindy and Victor for coming on my show and being so open and honest. I appreciate you and I appreciate every guest who comes on here

and every one of the members of our audience listening and watching for treating our guests with respect and learning from them. Hey, Ramit. So it's been about a month since filming and we are doing great. We've implemented weekly meetings. So what we do in those meetings is talk about finances, of course, and how we can cut down on expenses, like going out to eat and so on. We plan a menu for the week, which has been exciting for us. So it helps us just kind of reconnect. And so, stay on task. We've been doing really good with that. We've been coming prepared to our meetings as well. So, you know, Victor knowing his numbers really helps me kind of figure out my numbers

and how we can work together. He's also significantly increased his income, which is great, because I'm going to be losing mine soon. But I still plan on, you know, doing some consulting and things like that on the side, just so I'm not at zero. I'm excited, and, you know, I feel like you've given us the tools that we need to just continue our partnership and work together. So, yeah, thank you so much. Hey, Romney, I wanted to say thank you. It was very nice to be in your podcast. I feel like I learned a lot.

The dynamic in the household is way better with Mindy and me. we're doing meetings about our money situation. Overall, it was a great experience. For me, I learned a lot and I just want to learn more. So thank you for having us and that's it. Thanks.