Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 20. “My wife is going to divorce me unless I can stop being so cheap”

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

Charles and his wife, Michelle, are worth $10 million, and he earns over $2 million a year--but he’s cheap. So cheap, he still insists on sharing someone else’s Netflix password.  Michelle has been pushed to the limit. Divorce is on the cards unless things change. She wants to start with landscaping the backyard, but I want to investigate the roots of this invisible script that’s costing him his marriage.  There’s 21 years’ worth of scar tissue to heal here. Let’s dig in.  Connect with Ramit Website Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube Linkedin If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years.

And another member made a rule that any time she buys a ticket for an event, she always buys a second so that she can bring a friend. These are just a few examples of how my money coaching members have built systems to use their money. Notice that there's no more anxiety, that they have a smooth running system. They know when their debt's going to be paid off. They can feel comfortable spending on the things they love. They can actually spend less time on their finances while living an amazing life. In my money coaching program, members also get access to live events every month, including topics like money with aging parents and how to create

amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel, plus Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join the program right now. You're netting 80,000 a month, and you're questioning my audible $12 subscription every day, there's a problem here. You know, we file our taxes jointly and I had to sign for taxes recently. Couldn't believe my eyes. I didn't even know how much we made. I had to sign $175,000 per month. My yard is in shambles. There's no reason for this. When we fly,

we fly as basic economy as we can. When we say in hotels, it's the cheapest. I am cheap. I am I am cheap. There's no mistake about that. And the real clincher here is that because he earns the money and physically has more access to the money, he directs it. He manages it. I do believe that he wants to change. I do believe that he realizes the damage that has been done. I'm not optimistic that he can actually do it. Hi, I'm Remeet Satie and welcome to the I Will Teach You Be Rich podcast. I recently got a message and I have to read it to you. Here's what it's said, we have a $10 million net worth and a $2.5 million income, and we still share a Netflix password. Please help. My wife of 21 years is threatening divorce. Well, today I'd like you to meet

Michelle and Charles. Both are in their early 50s, and as I looked into their numbers, they actually earned more than he initially mentioned. They make $3.1 million per year, mostly from a full job, but also from sitting on boards and investments. Their total assets are $11.3 million, with a couple million bucks in mortgages. And yet, Charles is cheap, so cheap that his wife Michelle has threatened divorce. And on today's episode, you're going to hear about their landscaping, their travel, and their children's mattresses. This is one of the most fascinating conversations I've ever had about money. As you listen to Michelle and Charles, it's going to be easy for you to get mad.

At some point today, you're going to scream out loud, if I was a multimillionaire, I would never worry about money. But I want you to stop thinking like that. When was the last time you actually heard real people with over $10 million, talk about how they really feel? Never. First, we should congratulate, Charles and Michelle for being courageous enough to talk to me. And second, the real lesson is that if you

feel nervous or anxious or fearful about money, you're still going to feel that way even when you have $10 million. One last thing. You can only hear conversations like this on the I Will Teach You to Be Rich podcast. So please tell your friends about this. Now let's get to it. Charles, you sent me a message recently, and I would like to read off the message and ask what was going on when you sent that to me. So you wrote, we have a $10 million net worth and $2.5 million income, and we still share a Netflix password. Please help in all caps. My wife of 21 years is threatening divorce. Charles, what was going on when you wrote that message to me? we're having a very toxic discussion about money. It's very argumentative. And I have my views about

money. Michelle has reviews about money. And I could frankly say that I have been unfair. I have been selfish. And I want you to help me in two ways. I want you to help me, give me the tools to talk to my wife about money in an open and transparent way. And number two, I want you to teach me how to live a rich life. say you can't help cheap people, but I am cheap. I am frugal. I am cheap. There's no mistake about that. And there are certain things that I feel I don't want to spend money on, right? Like I bought a fancy car a couple years ago paid all cash. It's a fancy car. I'll invest in that. Like a car, it was more like luxury, right? I mean, it's a Tesla luxury because I didn't look at that as luxury. I mean, he's a tech executive who bought a used Tesla with the lowest battery power.

That's not a luxury to me. He originally signed up for the $35,000 Tesla until we found out what the actual body looked like, and then he, like, upgraded a little bit. This really sets the tone for today's episode. Charles thinks one thing. Michelle thinks another. Both of them are extremely confident about their perspectives. This isn't like talking to two people who are ignorant about money, shy to talk about it. Not at all.

This is going to take a totally different approach from my end. Listen in. I paid a lot of money to rivet the government. a garage to work out in his gym. I pay money for that. But I'm not going to pay more than a certain amount of money for a pair of jeans. I'll buy it from Costco, right? I don't value the jeans or shoes, et cetera. There are probably more areas where I'm cheap and a lot less areas where I am a bit extravagance. You like being cheap? I don't. I think that it's been wearing on me because I tend to think about price and money too often and I found myself just stressing myself

out too much. When you get a good deal, what does that feel like? It feels great. Like if I, if I, I'm an investor, when I get like a great, like, rental property, I love it. When I get a great deal at, I go to the dollar store, I load up on good deals there. I just love the feeling of the fact that I got a good deal. You got a $10 million net worth. You walk into the dollar store. What are you getting in the dollar store, by the way? So the thing, where I find a good value in the dollar store is light bulbs, batteries, and frozen fruit for my smooths. When I compare and comparison shop that at Whole Foods, it's almost 2x. I just have to make a guess. Is it blueberries that you're buying at the

dollar store? Man, what is it about rich people in blueberries? Do you know how many rich people I've talked to who will not pay more for blueberries? This is crazy. All right, we're going to have to get into that another time, but there's something going cosmic going on. Okay, so you walk out, you got your bag with your light bulb and your blueberries, and what are you feeling when you walk out of there after making a $7 purchase that otherwise would have been $21 somewhere else? It's that feeling of money well spent, right? It's not wasted. And so I feel that like I cringe whenever Michelle throws food away because it's money down the drain. I have a suspicion here. I want to know about the people around him. Like who is he sharing this feeling of getting a good deal

with. Who's reinforcing it? Is Michelle in on it too? And do you share that feeling with anybody else? What do you mean? Like, do you come home and tell Michelle, oh my God, look at this deal I got? Or is it just for you? I tell Michelle often, but she doesn't quite like get as excited as I do. So I'll tell my other friends. Like I got some college buddies I'll share my deals with. And they really, they appreciate it more than Michelle does. Michelle, I'm curious to hear what it's like when Charles, comes home with this bag of light bulbs and tells you about the price that he got on it. Have you had this experience before? Initially, when he would come home for the dollar store, I would just kind of laugh and,

you know, just chalk it up as, you know, that's another notch of his cheapness. And I would, you know, swear that I would never do that. I mean, I'm a whole foods kind of girl. But ironically, I went one day and I was kind of, I was kind of, wow, this is a good deal. But there's a caveat. It depends on what you get because to me, there's a, you know, cheap at what cost. So there are certain things that were just not brand names that, you know, there was a cost to that. Frozen fruit, you can get, that's the same everywhere.

But even though there was a good feeling for it, it was on very few items. And I just figure, you know what, that doesn't affect me. If he wants to shop dollar store, that's fine. It's not something that I want to do on a regular basis, but I wasn't as affected on that as I, as I am on other things. When I have these conversations, I'm always looking for a clue that's going to open up something deeper. It's like finding a secret entrance in Super Mario. If I find it, it can take me to that secret underworld where the real truth is. You know, I suspected that Charles's cheapness might be motivated by people around him, but that's not it. So when you're talking about money with your partner,

it takes a lot of gentle searching for clues. But notice, if you can't find it, just move on. That's what I'm going to do right now. I'm going to switch approaches, and I'm going to try to find out when this started affecting their relationship. Before marriage. So the night before our marriage, so we're planning the wedding and everyone's responsible for whatever thing. And he comes to me the night before the wedding and says, did you bring your checkbook? I'm like, no, in all the frenzy, how can I forget, how can I bring my checkbook? And I was like, why? He's like, because you have to pay the musicians. I'm like, what difference does it make? We're getting married to. tomorrow. And that stuck with me. I almost called the wedding off because I just felt like

who we're getting married. We're going from separate to joint. Why would he ask for my checkbook? And so that's been the theme for 21 years. Sometimes I refer back to that like the checkbook moment. And that's been a problem. So this started very early. For me, there was never enough being with my husband. We were always, it felt like we were always in. deficit. So even though most people are broke in college, I don't think he was broke. I think I was the only broke when he's never been broke in the sense of lack of money. I think it was just this feeling of we don't have enough. We don't have enough. But the numbers always showed that we did have enough. He would always make me feel and put this buzz in my ear that it's not enough. We don't

have enough money. We have to be more frugal. I think that's fair. I think that looking back, I had more of a scarcity mindset as opposed to an abundance mindset. set. But I think the biggest difference was, like, I always, I'm very intentional. And so in my mind, if there's no agreement or a plan and how to spend the money, then there's no cap. And so I get worried. And so if you say we're going to spend $100 on groceries or whatever, then that's $100. I'm good with that. If you say, I don't want to agree on that, I'm going to spend whatever I want. I'm going to be nervous. Because every expense, like, when is this going to end? And so that's kind of what led to, I guess, the friction between.

spending plan, no spending plan, being frugal and kind of having that scarcity mindset. There was never, in my mind, agreed upon plan on how we want to spend the money. There are so many insights in what we just heard. Michelle mentioned that she's felt this sense of scarcity since the day they got married. When you're young and you don't have much money, that makes sense. But a lot of us hope that once we're more financially comfortable, that scarcity will change. What you're learning is that simply adding more money doesn't automatically change your feelings about money. Then you heard Charles say that he wants a plan.

He used words like worried or I'm going to spend whatever I want. Notice how emotionally charged these ideas are. Nervous, friction. When is this ever going to end? Also notice how it's all focused on what can go wrong. but it's never focused on what can go right. And $10 million later, he still feels the same. Just guess the average wait time to see a doctor in the United States.

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Okay. All right. We're going to spend $50 on your next pair of jeans. How do you feel? It's okay. It seems okay. Okay. We're going to spend $250 on your next jeans. I don't think it's worth it. I wouldn't do that. Why is that? I think that that doesn't feel like a good way to spend $250. I'd rather spend it someplace else.

Like what? I've been looking to get to some AirPods pros. I tell me with my conference calls at work, and so I'd prefer to spend money on that and then go without jeans. I'll tell you what. We'll get you the AirPods and the $250 jeans. How do you feel about that? Again, I think the AirPods may be worth it,

but the jeans just seems like it's a waste of money. Okay, okay. So it's not the plan. It's the amount as well. I think so, yeah. because I just gave you a plan. I told you exactly how much we're going to spend. You were not having it.

Yeah, I think that's right. The most dangerous three words that I've heard for 21 years is in my mind. It's whatever he makes up in his mind. So in his mind, $50, $250 is too much for jeans. It's not based on anything. It's not based on him shopping and seeing the different range. It's not based on, you know, analysis reports on genes. It's just in his mind, that's too much.

So he has like an eternal compass of. of what things should cost versus what they really cost or what the quality of it really cost. You ever heard stories about people who go out with their parents and they go to dinner and their parents are still tipping like 5% or 10% and you're just like, no, dad, we can't do that anymore. Here, I'm going to slip an extra 20. Have you ever heard stories like that? Yeah, I have, yeah. Do you think that that's possible for your internal compass around things like genes? Yes and no. I think that there's two parts. One is the internal compass could be updated, but I think that there's certain things that I just don't put value on and certain

things that I do. And so, and so I think it's a combination of both of those things. That was a very good answer from Charles. It was very logical what he said. Did you catch it? Hey, sure, I could probably update my internal compass, but also I just value certain things and I don't value other things. Sounds so logical, right? That comment would slide by 90% of people. But there's just one problem. Charles's wife is about to divorce him. all the logic in the world is not working. Watch me now as I sharpen my questions so that he starts to truly internalize

the consequences of his beliefs. Fair enough. I agree also. There are certain things I just don't care about. And some people look at me like, why would you not buy that? You can easily afford it. I just don't care. It's not important to me.

Exactly. So my question, Charles, is, what is the cost of your beliefs? I think it's costing me quite a bit because I think that I want to have a partner in my marriage when it comes to the money and the investments. I want to be able to work with somebody to do that. And my beliefs have caused a huge wedge between my wife and I. And so it's costing me quite a bit. It's costing me harmony in my home.

It's costing me my wife's happiness. And it's costing me a lot of stress. And so that's why I'm trying to figure this out. So it's costing me quite a bit. I hope it's not too late, but I want to turn this around. I want to loosen the purse strings. I want to start to provide my wife with the things that she wants. And I've been trying to do this on my own, but I've been having trouble. Like, for example, I try to do your $100 challenge, turn it to a $1,000 challenge, and I failed miserably. I couldn't find anything to spend $1,000 on.

You couldn't find anything to spend $1,000 on. No, I failed. Yeah. His idea of spending is spending to make more money and then make more money. I'm constantly saying like, why do you need more money? Oh, because I want to invest and make more money. Well, why do you need that? Why do you need that? At some point, you die and you're just doing this to give it away to other people.

So his beliefs, if he were a single guy, would be fantastic. It's his beliefs. He can do what he wants. It's his money, value. All that can be his. The problem is that we're married. And what he finds, what his beliefs are, he doesn't realize that they affect me immensely. So they have, I mean, literally to the point where it's broken my spirit. I mean,

the reason why we're coming to you now is because after all these years, it's just too much. I mean, I remember another podcast you did and you asked them to rate it from zero to 10. We're at a nine. And we've been in a nine and a half for many years, maybe the last 10 years. And I just can't take it anymore. And so even though he was the one who initiated the call, I was totally on board because we just need some guidance. And we've talked in therapy. It just, it always ends with the same mindset that he has. You have children?

We have kids, yes. Teenagers. Do you think that them getting ready to start thinking about college is perhaps also bringing this more to the surface? And for me, yes, because my kids have seen my cheapness. If you ask them if I'm cheap, daddy's cheap. They'll say, yes, he is. And I don't want.

that to taint how they view and think about money as well. And so I try to give them the right kind of tools like accounts and talk about investments, etc. But I don't want my cheapness and my issues to kind of rub off on them. So that's part of why I want to try and get this resolved. So they can really have a good chance at being good with money. And I have a different perspective. So on money, I want them to know how to live abundantly. I want them to know that their hard work has a I want them to be able to live life where, yes, they can save and understand money, but at the same time, they could do things that they otherwise could not do. It is really, really hard for people to turn the page in their rich life. Let me explain what I mean. For highly successful people like Charles, all of their skills of saving and investing and planning and optimizing got them to the top of the mountain. So from the outside, you look at them and you say, you made it.

Why are you agonizing over $200 jeans? But to them, they see the very skills that got them here as identical with themselves. They can't separate the desire for success from themselves. So I can sit here and repeat, Turn the page. What's your rich life? It doesn't mean anything to Charles yet. Michelle can even say, I'm about to divorce you, and it still doesn't really hit home.

This identity is deeper than money. It's deeper than relationships. It goes to the very core of who Charles is. By the way, I sometimes ask people on my newsletter, what would you do if you had $100 million? The answers are so fucking depressing. Half of them say, I'm already living a great life. I wouldn't change a thing. I know they're trying to signal that they're happy,

but I consider this almost a criminal lack of imagination. To not know what you would do with essentially unlimited money, not even a single amazing trip, not even taking your family to create an unforgettable memory. I'm not impressed. Half of the people respond, pay off my house, then invest the rest. For what?

You fucking won the game. You have $100 million. And now you want to invest more? These are the kinds of answers people give when they haven't really thought through their rich life, when they haven't given themselves room to dream. Now, there's just one more catch with Charles here. He actually has that kind of money. And yet he can't stop making more of it.

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If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide, demystifying AI at netsuite.com slash remit. That's netsuite.com slash remit. I think the part where we vastly differ is on spending it. I mean, we're accurate on how to save it and why save it. But there's a big divide on spending, how to spend, what to spin it on, why spend it on these things. Yeah, there is. I'm hearing so much focus, Charles, on saving and accumulating and compounding. And you've done a fantastic job of that. I do hear a lot of excitement when you talk about the light bulbs and the blueberries and getting a good value. Love that excitement. I'm not hearing any real joy aside from a couple of things.

like the gym on how to spend the money. It's financial freedom, right? At some point, I want to be able to go into my next chapter and work on more passion projects and retire from my full-time job. I'm not sure when that's going to be, but that's part of the mission that I've been on is to get to financial freedom

so I can kind of go to my next chapter, and that's the place that gets me really excited. So you did it. Did you know you succeeded? I think I'm close. Yeah, how close? Well, there's a lot of factors to consider, but I think I'm very close. I think that one of the biggest question marks in my mind is when I talk to Michelle about

what does our risk life look like? And she starts talking about that. And I start seeing dollar signs. I start seeing hearing, I want to fly first class. I want to buy a huge house. I want to stay in the Western United States in a high cost geography. And I'm saying, okay, my initial plans were X, her plans are 1.5X. And so that's the thing that is, it's current.

So unless we get an agreement and alignment on what that rich life looks like, it's going to be hard for me to pencil it out. Why don't we just do it right now? Let's just do it right now. We'll keep it very high level. Here's the thing before we do it. That's exactly why I haven't done it because it doesn't stop there. It's not, here are my five things that I'd like to do.

great, we'll do it, because there's two problems with that. One is it's set in stone. So if I give you five things right now that I'd like to do, that's my rich life, that's it. There can't be a single dollar spent anywhere else. And number two, the minute I spit out the first one, he has a problem with it because it's like, oh my God, that's spending money on something that I would not otherwise spend money on. And then also the few things that he just mentioned first class and the big house, those are false. Those are things that he hears. The reality is I'm tired of sitting smashed in the middle every time you go on a vacation. I just want it's better comfort. Not I got to find first class just because it's first class. The truth is I want to live on the West Coast because A, that's where we're from. And B, that's where my children are. And they'll probably stay here after college. So there's some truth behind his statements that come across like, well, gee, this woman is crazy.

She wants to actually live in a big house. Yeah, I do. I do. I think we've both worked hard. Yeah, I do. I'm not ashamed of that. But you want to travel first class? Yep, I do. We've been married 21 years and it's about time flights after four hours, we're in business or first class. So again, it's that negative spin to it.

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I want to do that. What's wrong with that? What I'm hearing, what I heard from Michelle was that my inflexibility, and that's fair. I'm a very planful guy. I like to stick to a plan. And so, but I'm trying to convince Michelle that, hey, I've learned to be more flexible and it's not going to be set in stone but i think that but let's be thoughtful about putting a plan together don't just kind of spit out numbers or ideas let's be thoughtful and make sure that's something you put forward something that you put some thought into okay before we go on are you seeing michel's reaction right now no i can't see it what is she doing she's shaking her head why do you think she's shaking her head just rewind back to what you just said what

What did you say in that sentence again? Try to say it out loud. Okay. I said that I'm trying to be more flexible, not set in stone, but I wanted to put some thought into what she's trying to do. Maybe she took it as she's not being thoughtful, and that's not what I meant, but I just, I just feel that sometimes she spits out numbers. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on, I'm going to pause you right there. So you had two parts of that sentence. I want to convince her that I am more flexible. That was part one. Right. And then part two. was but started with a but i think you know we should run our numbers and we should be thoughtful and planful okay those two parts which part part part one or part two do you think that she started shaking

her head at uh part two yeah because she i think she may be offended at my thinking that she's not being thoughtful or planful etc i think she may think that she is thoughtful what was she says and and what is the implication of you needing to remind you your wife of 21 years that you both need to be thoughtful. What's the implication there? I think the implication is that she's not, she has not been thoughtful. And she's, you know, hasn't put any thought into what she's, what she's trying to do. If you were to say, hey, babe, you make the plan for the vacation.

Here's the checkbook. What is the implication that what would she do with that checkbook? that she's going to spend a bunch of money thoughtlessly. Like a huge amount, like an amount of money that's going to set you back in the poor house. Do you think she would do that? I don't think she would do that intentionally, but I think that she could or has spent money in ways that I thought that we should not have spent in those ways. Do you think there is a vacation that the two of you could go on? Do you think there's an amount she could spend that would materially affect your finances negatively?

No. Say it again. Say it in a full sentence so you hear that yourself. I don't think it's possible for Michelle to spend money on one vacation that would materially impact our finances. However, I agree. Just stop right there. I'm going to save you from yourself, okay? Trust me.

I'm saving you. I'm saving all of us right now. Okay, okay. I had to stop him from some long monologue that he was about to go on. And two things just happened right there. One you could see and one you could not. First, Charles acknowledged that there is literally no amount Michelle could spend on a vacation that would materially affect their finances.

To put it another way, she could plan a $500,000 trip, and they would make that much money back in a few months. in interest alone. But you'll notice how I had to almost drag this out of him. Even when he admitted it, he felt he had to caveat it, to cover his bases, to explain. This is true of a lot of logical people. They feel they need to cover every contingency. Second, I wish you could have seen Michelle's face.

She looked so sad. She looked frustrated. The problem with needing to dot every eye and cross every T, and I'm talking to all you logical dorks out there who feel the need to explain and show the math and ROI of every life decision, the problem is that nobody likes being told all the things you might do wrong, especially when you've been someone's partner for 21 years. Michelle is looking for a little partnership here, a little trust, to focus on what can go right instead of only focusing on what can go wrong. You know, I belong to a small group of CEOs.

One time we were on a retreat, and I was telling them about some upcoming review I was going to have with one of my coworkers. And they asked me, how good is this guy? I said he's great. 90% of his work is excellent. And they said to me, okay, then in your call, spend, 90% of the time on the positive. This totally blew my mind. Because as a guy who used to be a logical dork, I still have remnants of it in my mind. Here's what I was planning to do.

I was going to spend five minutes praising him and complimenting him on the good work and then 55 minutes going through constructive feedback. What a fucking mistake that would have been. Michelle has been subjected to literally decades of constructive criticism, of being warned about all the things that can go wrong, of listening to Charles's fears about money. But she's been a good partner.

She hasn't asked for anything over the top. So you can understand the sadness, the anger, and the resignation that I saw in her face. Okay. So we start there. We can agree on that. let's put the plan part of it aside. Let's just put that financial part of it aside. Is Michelle a good mom? She's a great mom. She's a good wife.

Excellent wife. Good partner? Very good partner. How come in your statements, the two-parter, you give her the warning of what she might do wrong? Where's that coming from? I think it's coming from because we approach things differently, right? Talk to me about yourself. So I approach things maybe too much so in a very analytical, planful, intentional way. I do my homework. I'm very punctual. I build spreadsheets to make sure I know what's going on.

And that's what I do. Maybe overkill, but that's what I do. I think Michelle is very spontaneous. And she very much has a gut that tells her to do this and do that. And she's oftentimes right. And so, but it could be a scary ride because, like, Michelle's approach is a scary ride for me because I'm not sure where she's going and where we're going to end up. But if you look back on it, she always ends up in the reason of the right spot.

Who's more adventurous out of the two of you? Michelle. Yeah. If you were left to your own devices, Charles, would you, sort of do the same thing day in and day out? I like routine. You know, you remind me a lot of myself because I also love the plans. I love the spreadsheets. I like to map it all out. And actually, that has helped me to become successful. So in a way I look at it, I say, well, that's a strength. I can't fly by the seat of my pants like these other people. That would be crazy. And that becomes

reflexive. My skills made me successful, therefore I need to lean on my skills. All that's true. I'm hearing a lot of that from you. There's just one problem. My skills can also be very destructive to the people around me because I'm naturally analytical, utilitarian. When I was in my early 20s, I didn't even put a frame on anything on the wall. I was like, why would I? It's a waste of money. I'll just hang up a poster. Then I met my wife, who's spontaneous, more adventurous. And it was, I just want to talk about the spreadsheet all day. I said, let's get into the spreadsheet.

Let's talk compound interest. This is great. And okay, you know, that took some time and all that. But there's a cost to sharing your analytical views all the time. there's a cost to looking at the world only through an analytical lens. I think the cost is you miss out on some really good experiences, right? So, for example, we always tend to plan on our vacations. This one time, we didn't plan out this vacation to Los Angeles.

And it was Michelle's doing and she wanted to not plan it. And we had like one of the best days. You know, we kind of went to a museum here, it's something on the street corner here. and if you're so planful about everything, you're going to miss that in those spontaneous, magical moments. Charles and I spent some time talking about money lenses. Let me explain that concept to you.

Imagine you're wearing a pair of glasses. Everything you see in the world comes through those lenses. So if I asked you, what's your money lens? What would you say? The most common money lens is cost. This is how most people view the world. They focus on cost first. How much is it going to cost?

Charles uses a money lens that's more commonly used by highly educated people. R-O-I. He wants value. He loves analytics. A lot of tech guys use these money lenses. But there are also other money lenses. There's experience, which could be an amazing restaurant or a sunset trip to the beach. There's relationships like my friend who hosts people at his house all the time.

there's security like knowing you can call someone to fix your car. My wish for you is to treat money lenses like different instruments in an orchestra. You would never only have one instrument. You would never only have a trombone. I don't know. I'm a little out of my league since I don't know anything about orchestras. Basically, you would never play with just one instrument. Yet so many of us do this for our entire lives.

And there's a real cost to seeing everything through one. lens. For Charles, he's always crunching numbers, always looking for more value, and it really rubs his wife the wrong way. Sometimes you can just do something for another money lens. Sometimes there's another money lens you can use. Pure desire. I'm going to do this because I want to. Once you have a large enough net worth, you should be a master of many of these money lenses. Listen as you hear Michelle's response now. I have this email software that I love so much. I pay for it personally.

And just 20 minutes ago, I used one of its AI tools. I'm currently doing a pitch to some journalists for this story that I want to run. And I said, go through my emails for the last two years, identify every top-tier journalist that I've interacted with, and then sort them based on this story that I want to pitch and pull their email addresses for me. It did it in 20 seconds. You can use this software called, Superhuman, today's sponsor, Superhuman is an AI native email and calendar for busy professionals

and teams. It learns your voice so we can pre-draft email responses for you. This stuff is important because momentum is what helps you drive forward. The auto draft feature that I mentioned, that drafts follow-ups for you automatically, also schedules replies so nothing falls through the cracks. You can make sure that somebody responds to you if you need to check in on it. It's all automatic. And its auto archive feature can help you keep your inbox clear by letting you automatically archive entire categories of emails so they never even hit your inbox. My favorite thing of all is how fast this software is. You can do everything from the keyboard. You can use shortcuts like you wouldn't believe. You can get through tons of emails in minutes. My team and I

at IWT use superhuman. We love it. And I think you will too. Turn your inbox into momentum. Sign up for Superhuman Mail today. Go to Superhuman. com slash remit three and try it for yourself. That's superhuman.com slash remit three, the number three. Why is it that people who tell me I'm stupid on social media always have the profile picture of a jar of mustard? You think I'm going to take your advice about investing when your username is Pontiac Plummer 48? No, thank you. Instead, I trust professionals when I need help with my business like you can do using Gelt this coming tax season. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps you. you take control of your tax strategy ahead of time. They'll help you think strategically,

like how to structure your business, where to maximize key deductions, and how to use the tax code to your benefit. Plus, their platform makes it easy to stay organized, working with your tax team year-round, not just when deadlines hit. So whether you are a business owner, whether you are self-employed, this is the proactive move you can make now to save thousands next April. If you want this tax season to actually work for you, not against you, go to join gelt.com slash remit to get started. As part of this community, you'll even get to skip the wait list because this year it's not about catching up. It's about getting ahead. The house is my biggest thing. The house, maintaining it, beautifying it, making it comfortable,

making it comfortable for my family and friends. But the problem is it's not. And then another thing that I kind of picked up as Charles was talking is it's what he finds valuable. It's what he finds pleasure in. So when we talk about the Tesla, that benefited him solely. When we talk about the garage remodel, that benefits him solely. So the disconnect comes when it benefits him, it doesn't benefit him in any kind of way. That's when the friction happens. So he could care less about furniture in the living room. Could care less, that's our friction. And it's everything to me. He could care less about landscaping. Could care less, but it's everything to me. And the real clincher here is that because he earns the money and physically has more access to the money, he directs it.

He manages it. So buying is just a wish. His desires are actually played out because he physically earns it and doesn't view this as our money. Is that true, Charles? Do you view it as your money or both of your money? I view it as our money. I think earlier in my marriage, I was much more selfish with the money, but I've tried to make amends and try to be more open with her.

For example, I created this spreadsheet that shows her, here's where all the money is, here's all the password, she has access to it. I try to get her to sit down and talk about different things that I did. Because before, I would make an investment without talking to her about it. Now I'm trying to really say,

hey, Michelle, I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think? It says I've tried to talk to more about it, but it still is very much one-sided, and I want to correct that. Okay, okay. I appreciate that. I'm hearing you, and I can see that you are. So clearly, you've probably talked about this before. I'm sure it's been a hot topic of discussion. Charles, it sounds like Michelle wants to get some furniture. What has your approach been with this furniture that she wants to get? So my first approach was, okay, when I hear her ideas, I start to hear see that, to ching, doching, to ching, so I said, okay, for the next 12 months, let's just,

this kind of outline what do you want to do to the house for the next 12 months? And then let's plan for that. So there's no, like, big surprise. The thing that I don't like as much is like, in May, let's do this. In June, let's do this. In August, let's do this. It starts adding up. And so when I kind of come to her and say, listen, we can do this stuff in the house,

let's let's lay out a plan for 12 months. And that's when Michelle cringes and doesn't want to do it. And that's what causes the strife. She would love if I said, Honey, you have a blank checkbook, do what you want. Is that true, Michelle? I would love him to take enough money that he needs. He said he needs $150,000.

Take it. Give me the rest. I mean, literally, like, you only need $150, you're netting $80,000 a month. And you're questioning my audible $12 subscription every day. There's a problem here. You know, we file our taxes jointly, and I had to say, sign for taxes recently, couldn't believe my eyes. I didn't even know how much we made. I had to sign $175,000 per month. My yard is in shambles. There's no reason for this. When we fly, we fly as

basic economy as we can. When we stay in hotels, like he said, it's the cheapest. Now, we're not in Motel 6 and we're not, you know, it's an dire straits, but it's probably the quality if we made $100,000 a year, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is we make more. The reason why I'm not giving a list is because it comes down to the words that he said before, convincing, being thoughtful, being planful. I'm all those things. I'm analytical as well. I plan, I research, I weigh the and measure. I don't just willy-nilly just say, hey, I want to buy a couch today. I'm doing research, et cetera. So, but those words are unacceptable and they shut me down. And when I hear those, I'm like, I'm not giving you a list because the minute I say,

let's do this, that's not being thoughtful. That's not being planful. Well, I'm just saying it. Give me a chance to think it out. So these are issues that, um, everything that he's saying is fantastic. They make sense. They're, they're logical, but in reality, it doesn't play out like that. Do you think that it's going to happen? I don't know because I do believe that he wants to change. I do believe that he realizes the damage that has been done. I'm not optimistic that he can actually do it. I haven't seen change in this area of money. It's often the things that make us successful in the first place

that turn around and cost us everything. Charles has been very financially successful, and yet he's taken it too far. He's become cheap. He's become disconnected from what really, matters. His wife is frustrated, maybe beyond saving. Now, the good news is that they both came to me, open-mindedly, willing to listen and potentially change. And as I started having this conversation with him, I saw how much there is to unpack with Charles and Michelle. The first, and the big elephant in the

room, is that cheapness is one of the most difficult afflictions to change. You know why? because deep down, cheap people don't really think it's a problem. They'll often shroud their behavior in all kinds of positive phrases. Well, you know, I'm a conscious spender. There's certain things I care about, certain things I don't. I would never spend on that. But when you zoom out and you ask them, what is your philosophy on money costing you?

Well, suddenly, they have to start to acknowledge that friends aren't inviting them out as much. that they're accumulating a huge amount in their checking account, and they have no idea what to do with it. In this case, Charles has to acknowledge that his wife is extremely unhappy. It becomes clear that this is a much, much more complex psychological issue than the amount of money in a savings account. I have a lot more to talk about with Charles and Michelle.

This conversation continues, and it winds and turns. on next week's episode. I'm Rameith Saiti, and I'll see you then. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You to Be Rich. I'm Rameet Satee. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. To find our entire back catalog of podcast episodes,

go to IWT.com slash podcast. I'm given away a signed copy of my book. Send me a screenshot. Show me that you're following my podcast on Apple. or Spotify, and I'll pick one listener to send a free signed copy of my book right out to you. Here's what you'll find next week on the I Will Teach to Be Rich podcast. I do believe that he wants to change. I do believe that he realizes the damage that has been done.

I'm not optimistic that he can actually do it. I haven't seen change in this area of money. I get it. I get it. You're cautious about hope. I get that.