Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 200. “Should we pay off our massive debt? Or invest more?”

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Wilson (46) and Shannon (35) have built a strong financial foundation—owning a vacation rental, maxing out Roth IRAs, and earning solid incomes. But when it comes to their next move, they’re at odds. Wilson wants to tap into their home equity to invest in stocks, believing they’re too heavily weighted in real estate. Shannon, more risk-averse, worries about adding debt when they already owe $129K on their home, plus tax and student loans. Can they align on a strategy that balances security with growth? This episode is brought to you by: Gelt | Get a more premium, proactive tax strategy to optimize and file your taxes at https://joingelt.com/ramit. Wildgrain | Get $30 off the first box - PLUS free Croissants in every box at https://wildgrain.com/ramit Superhuman | Get a free month of lightning fast email at https://superhuman.com/ramit. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Facet | Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Links mentioned in this episode • Order my new book: Money for Couples Connect with Ramit • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years.

And another member made a rule that any time she buys a ticket for an event, she always buys a second so that she can bring a friend. These are just a few examples of how my money coaching members have built systems to use their money. Notice that there's no more anxiety, that they have a smooth running system. They know when their debt's going to be paid off. They can feel comfortable spending on the things they love. They can actually spend less time on their finances while living an amazing life. In my money coaching program, members also get access to live events every month, including topics like money with aging parents and how to create

amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel, plus Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join the program right now. Do you feel like you currently have a weight on your shoulders? Yeah, when it comes to money, definitely. It feels heavy. It feels a little bit suffocating. I took the big risk of not making money for six years, hoping to be successful.

The question is about Wilson wanting to take out a second mortgage on the house to put more money into stocks. What the hell? This isn't like a blanket approach that you can ask chat GPT or something and say, should I take out a second mortgage? No, you need to know exactly the. details. Why do you sound angry when you say it? Watching your energy just now. I'm feeling attacked, and I don't even understand what the fuck you're talking about. All I know is you're yelling at me. There's emotional things that come up, and it's hard on me, too. We just talk about the doom and gloom of everything. Do you see how the two of you don't agree on the debt? How can you row to a certain

destination when the two of you don't even agree what the destination is? We're going to get to the show in just a second, but I have to share that today is a big milestone for the Money for Cupples podcast. This is our 200th episode. And I want to give a huge thank you to every single one of you, all the listeners who join this podcast every single week to hear and watch these incredible stories. You know, I started this podcast because like a lot of you, I had questions on how to have healthy money conversations with my wife. And now 200 episodes later, here we all are. So a huge thank you to every couple who's been brave enough to reach out for help and to talk, publicly about what is one of the most intimate things there can be.

Their personal finances. And thank you to you for coming back every single week to hear and to watch these stories. If you enjoy this podcast, I would love it if you click follow or subscribe, whether it's Apple, Spotify, YouTube, because it helps me and my team grow this show and make every episode better and better. Thank you again for supporting Money for Couples. I'm about to open Shannon and Wilson's conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth, income, and where they spend their money.

You can download your own free template of the conscious spending plan at IWT.com slash CSP. Let's take a look at the numbers and then I've got to tell you about their application. Assets, $1.6 million, investments, $305,000, savings zero, debt, $247,000 for a total net worth of $1.68 million. Okay, but listen to this. In the application, she writes, my husband wants to take more risky financial decisions

when it comes to investing, while I'm more interested in making slow and steady decisions. He thinks I'm, quote, too conservative and frugal, while I think he is a bit of a dreamer and optimizer. We're also 10 years apart, and my husband has said that he feels he doesn't have as much time as I do, which is why he wants to make these aggressive financial decisions. It feels like he's trying to catch up for lost time.

Their combined gross monthly income, $13,916 a month. And their take home is $11,600. Fixed costs at 76%. That's too high. Investments are at 13%. Wow. That's post-tax. That's $1,520 a month.

Okay. That's interesting. Savings are at 22%. That's interesting. that's $500 a month for vacations, $100 a month for gifts, $2,000 a month for a long-term emergency fund, which is interesting because their emergency fund right now, oh, it's at zero. All right, makes a lot of sense. That's probably Shannon, who's saying, we need money in savings. That's my guess. And now, oh, their guilt-free spending is negative 11%. So basically they're spending too much. As we can see,

That's not true because I guarantee they are not spending negative $1,280 a month. So I have a lot to understand when it comes to Shannon and Wilson looking forward to talking to them. Shannon, do you remember exactly where you were and what you were doing when you decided to apply for this podcast? It was a few months ago and we had just had a finance conversation, which was around managing debt and equity. We were at our apartment in Brooklyn, and we bought a house and put a lot of money into that, and now we're at a stage where it's like, okay, what are our next steps? Are we saving? Are we investing?

And Wilson has expressed that he would like to have less invested in the house because we did a lot in cash and to move it over to stocks and that kind of thing. And we have a bit of debt in different things, and that. makes me feel uncomfortable and emotional, to be quite honest. And I feel like we're just at a point where we both have a different opinion of where things should go. And ultimately, he wants to get the data approach. But I also think that there are things that you piece of mind that aren't driven by the numbers. Who usually brings up money?

Shannon brings up spending, probably. I bring up investing more. I have come to realize that we both approach these issues differently. And my experience has been, I love my wife to death, but sometimes the emotional part of something comes out first rather than the clear picture of really what the bottom line is. And I think sometimes I get caught off guard by that, because we don't have all the pieces of the data points to really know our baseline.

And so it can be challenging. You said words like the bottom line. You said words like data. Just so I understand, would you say with your money that you data-driven? For the most part, yes. Great. And would you say that having an emotional perspective with money is the opposite of being data-driven? Yeah, I think that's fair.

Yeah. Okay. Cool. Got it. I think I'm understanding where you're coming from. Shannon, would you agree that you tend to lead with emotions when it comes to money? I think it's kind of hard not to because there's lived experience, family, cultural differences. I agree.

In fact, even the fact of showing emotions is cultural, is gender-based, is even geographical. There's so many different ways of it. So I agree with you. All right, so Shannon, you bring up a topic. And then Shannon, what did you say after he agreed to talk? I would ideally like to pay down the debt that we have. Aside from our mortgage, we have a couple of different debt lanes. And I would love to clear some of them out altogether or focus on the one that has the highest interest rate.

So you say, I want to pay off the debt. And then what's his reaction? I want to bind a video. I don't know. A video? No, NVIDIA. Oh, I see. You want to pay off debt.

He wants to invest more. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I understand. And so he says, well, why are we going to pay off debt? We can get better returns with the stock that's going up. Okay.

And what's your reaction to that, Shannon? Notice her deep breath. Look at that deep breath. What is that? I am a very emotional person, so I'm just wondering you. I would likely cry. Honestly, like... Second deep breath.

Can we pause right here? I just want to cut in quickly to explain why I'm pausing this conversation right now, even though we just got started. It's common for couples to come on this podcast and they often feel like they have to put it all out there immediately. It's almost like when you shake a bottle of soda and then you pop the lid and it just comes pouring out.

And I think that's what's happening here. I can tell that she, Shannon is visibly breathing, heavily. And that's a major clue. She's having a physical reaction to what we're talking about. And for me, that's a big stop sign. We have to stop. We have to slow things down.

We have to figure out what's going on here because until we address that, it's not even clear if she can hear what I am saying. And the greatest thing about this podcast is that my guests and I have the ultimate luxury of time. Now, I know that if I push her now, she's not going to hear what I'm saying. So I'm going to stop.

I'm going to slow things down. I'm going to see if we can reset this energy in a positive way. I suspect that you're taking a deep breath because it's quite overwhelming when you think about that next part of that conversation. Am I reading that correctly? Yeah, because I feel like paying off debt gives me peace of mind. And for me, that's worth more than like a full. few points in interest that you can make on something. Okay.

And so the deep breaths, the feeling of inability to breathe, what does that represent to you? Anxiety. You know, we're two people, but we have joined lives. When you have just a difference of opinion, how do you find something that makes both people feel comfortable and safe and secure? Yeah. I love the question you just raised. you are two separate people.

Culturally, you're different. Have you found another area of life where you both are on the same page even though you're different people? You know, we both want a family. We both love our families and enjoy spending time with them. We both love to travel.

We both love to eat. Okay. And picking any one of those, whichever one's most meaningful to you, what does it feel like when you're both aligned? It feels like we're a team, We can get pleasure out of things, enjoyment, fulfillment. Okay, cool. Wilson, how about for you?

How does it feel when the two of you are finding commonality in those? We feel connected. I feel understood. I feel like I'm understanding Shannon. There is a vivaciousness to everything, to our voice, to our, we're holding hands. were just super connected and a lot. Wow, I love that. I love your description too.

Connected, vivacious. These are very positive, vivid words. Yeah. Something really special about being connected with your partner. We all have different words, but overall, it feels really good. So I love knowing that the two of you have areas of life where you feel that way.

My goal is to help you find, the path from food and family to feeling the same thing with money. I like that. Awesome. Okay. All right. So you have cultural differences. You view money differently.

I understand. This is common, very common. When was the first time that you seriously talked about money? I would say like we first started to have serious conversations around money when we moved in together because then we had joint expenses. We got a joint crisis. credit card and we're budgeting because we spend differently and that kind of stuff. Like our second date, we are out to dinner and I was like, I think I need some milk for my

coffee in the morning. And she's like, all right, we'll go to the bodega right here. And so I was like, I don't have any money, you know. And so we walk in, she's like, oh, I have some money. So I got one of those small milks, right, a 16 ounce milk or whatever, $1.35 or something. Handed over. Shannon gives me $2. I hand the $2 to the bodega cashier. He hands me back 65 cents. And I was just going to go about my way. And Shannon says, can I have a receipt, please? And I would turn to her and I was like, why do I need a receipt for $1.35? She's just like, oh, it goes on my spreadsheet. And I was absolutely amazed. I was amazed how diligent. she was with tracking her expenses, you know.

I like that. Shannon, what do you remember about that? I enjoy tracking finances and talking about it and budgeting and that kind of stuff. So for me, it just seemed normal. Today, if we fast forward, how often do the two of you talk about money? I think it's probably every couple of months. And at what time does this? this conversation typically happen? I think usually like on a Sunday morning. Oh, wow. I'm

pleasantly surprised. So you talk about money every month or two, and how do you currently track your finances? It's a spreadsheet with like a notion page, variable charges, fixed charges, what's the debt? Who maintains this? Monstrosity. That's interesting. Shannon, do you access this set of documents? Do you log in? Do you look at them? I sometimes feel it's a little too complicated to like maintain with formulas and that kind of stuff. So it's, I don't feel it's super usable. Okay. You're all very good at describing a lot of details. Can I just ask you guys a simple question? Is it working? Not for me.

Okay. If it's not working for one of you, it's not working for both. You all see that? Yeah. You can have the most sophisticated system. It can be recurring. It can be variable. It can be automated. It's not working. Even for one, it's not working.

Okay. That's okay. We're just trying to discover what's going on. The good news is misery loves company. And you should know that almost nobody has a system that works for them. So you're in good company. And the even better news is, I happen to know something about making a system that actually works.

So it's not surprising to me, but I do like understanding putting all those details aside, does this work? And the answer seems to be no. You own a property in New York that you sometimes rent out. Is that correct? Well, it's two family. One unit is rented long term. The other unit is short term or we live here when it's not. Okay. And then you rent your current place in Brooklyn. Is that right? Yes, we don't own it. I would like to understand better how your conversations about money go. So what I would like to do is to go back in time, and I'd like to hear an example from the last six months where the two of you were not on the same page with money. Okay, so we want to go on vacation in the summertime, and we kind of live between the city and upstate, and so one place would always be rented,

and ideally our dog, Luna, would stay at our place upstate. And well, I think you want to ideally be able to rent both places so that we can make money off of the house instead of paying for Luna to have a dog sitter, right? Yes and no, I really want to figure out what the numbers are so we can have an educated decision. That's it. That's how the conversation goes. To be honest, this is like,

The classic. Shannon might think I want to do something or, but we're in the dark because we don't have all the pieces. And then there's emotional things that come up. And it's hard on me too. To be honest, it is hard on me because I haven't really made up my mind. I'm just trying to get to this kernel of truth so I can make my mind. Okay. How long does it usually take for you two to make a decision? Short or long? Long. Okay. Long means a week, a month, or several months? I feel like it's usually several months. I think it depends. The idea of going to Europe and getting a dog sitter, and I just spoke to her today, so hopefully I have an idea on the next two weeks. So six to eight weeks. Okay, so eight weeks. And this is the decision about pet sitting and traveling. Am I hearing that correctly? Yes.

Okay. So do you all feel fine about that? that taking eight weeks to make this decision? No, I'd like to have a discussion around it and then say, okay, this is the game plan and this is what we're going to do. Well, we're all here. Should we just have that discussion right now? Sure. Yeah, I would like to go to Europe and ideally I would like to just have Luna stay at the house.

I'm okay with not making extra money on it for the peace of mind knowing that she's taken care of, she's in her home, she's comfortable. We have a chance to meet this dog border who is highly recommended from our dog trainer. And we have somebody who wants to rent our place for a month for a lot of money. And for me, I just really want to get what the answer is for how much we would make. If we do feel Luna would be in a good environment, and then we can make that decision. I feel good about that. I would just like to make that decision and just like move forward.

I would be okay with that. Once we know that, here's my credit card. Let's book the truth. Go to Europe. Okay. How do you both feel about that conversation? I feel good. I guess my only hesitancy is that, you know, we'll say that we'll make the decision a week.

And then when it comes to make the decision, then it gets pushed. So if you feel skeptical, about your partner's ability or your joint ability to make decisions about money. How does that make you feel? It makes me feel uneasy. And I think it taps into like,

you know, not feeling safe and secure. If you know you're good with your money, if you're having productive conversations around money, then you feel, for me, that translates to feeling safe and secure. Yeah. Okay, I understand that. but that's not a feeling I have about money.

In fact, when my wife and I sat down with a therapist and he asked us, what does money represent to us? My answer was so fast. I was like, growth, numbers, compounding, growth. And my wife looked up and said, safety. I looked at her like, what? What's that word? And so I didn't understand exactly what she meant.

It took me a while to understand that. What does it mean to you? Being able to pay bills without having to think about it, having ease with money, having it flow freely without having to worry if we have to pay rent, pay mortgage, debt payments, that kind of thing. And being able to spend money on the things that we want to spend money on rather than the things that we have to spend money on. So as an adult, you've been worrying about money? Yes, I'm conscious of it. I'm aware of it. I don't like how much debt that we have. I understand everybody has a different threshold

of what they're comfortable with and that's where we differ too, you know? We're comfortable with different levels of debt. Hearing Shannon and Wilson talk, it's becoming clear to me that they have very different views of money. Shannon uses words like uneasy, safe and secure. And Wilson uses data-driven words

like data points, information, bottom line. We are not rational about money. And the people who believe they are data-driven often lie to themselves. They're telling themselves a story. They hide behind logic. The challenge today is for me to get Wilson to see that his need for data

is putting unnecessary pressure on his marriage and not just financially. But I can't lead with that. I have to first understand what's going on to make sure that I can get to the crux. of the issue. We're going to hear more after this short break. There's a pretty cool TikTok trend going around right now that I really love. It's called admin nights. Basically, you get your friends together, you get some snacks, maybe some drinks,

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Rameith to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash Rameh. Zok-D-O-C-com slash Rameh. And I want to thank Zok-Dak for sponsoring this message. Welcome back. Let's keep going. What role do each of you play in your finances? Because I work with data.

It does make sense that I gather everything and get it into a sheet or something so that we can look at it. Okay. And you, Shannon, what's your role? Maybe I'm the teller or the bank manager. So they're like moving money from here to there, checking on the account to see the balance, that kind of thing?

Yeah, yeah. What does it mean that the very role you yourself chose for yourself kind of not that significant in terms of managing personal finances? Maybe it's redundant. Maybe I'm managing things that I don't necessarily have to. Yeah. you're playing small. I hate seeing people play small. I especially hate that the situation you are describing is very common with women in relationships. And it drives me insane. You will often see this

dynamic. And it goes like this. The man will go, oh, you know, I do the big picture, you know, the investment stuff. And she manages the day to day. I go, not again. I hate to see it. I'm on a quest to get everybody to live a rich life, to focus on the things that matter, the $30,000 questions, not the $3 ones. Do you think you're playing small? I never thought about it like that, but I'd have to sit with it for a little bit before I can receive it, I guess. But if you sat with it right now and you realize, wow, I've been spending the last X years,

spending the majority of my time with money, focusing on tracking $1,000, and 60 cent expenses or reconciling this spreadsheet, which is so hard to use anyway, what might it mean about your relationship with money? Yeah, I guess if we were able to come to a consensus on how to handle certain things, we wouldn't really have to think about those smaller things. Yes. You would not have to talk about every tiny detail. And when you talk about every tiny detail. It stops you from focusing on the important stuff, the big picture stuff, but also it stops you from connecting on a more meaningful level because you will find yourself, I'm talking about both of you, by the way, getting dragged back into the weeds.

You're desperately trying to make an important decision for your rich life, but yet you find yourself delaying for eight weeks talking about a dog sitter. Better to make those decisions in December of last year and then, like, how much do we want to set aside for the dog sitter? Let's just make a line item. Then when it comes to this, you don't have to sit around and wait for two months. That's playing big when you all focus on the important stuff and you do not worry about these tiny logistical questions.

Shannon, how's it striking you? I would love to just make a game plan and roll with it. Would you be willing to give at least some control? Yeah, if we got together, made a decision on it and moved forward, I would love that. Hmm. Okay. Save a lot of mental energy. I love hearing that. Can I ask you, why haven't you done that?

I feel like I'm usually a planner. I like to get ahead of things and make a decision. And I feel like Wilson likes to wait. Why? I don't know. Going back to the dog sitting situation of last year, I wanted to book our Christmas trips in May. And Will wasn't sure what his work schedule was going to be.

And eventually, I think in August, I was like, okay, I'm going to book mine and you can book yours later. And I think, Will, you wanted to wait to see if we could rent a house and find a place for Luna. And then in the end, I went home for a month and Will ended up staying with Luna because he wanted to optimize for renting the house. That's not true, though. I didn't have all the information to make that decision that I can go away for a month while I'm CEO. of a startup. And it would have been great if we were swimming together in this new life that we're trying to get to with money. And you said, cool. Okay. Great. I'll book my ticket. If it works out or you can come. Great. If not, no worries. That's the palaces that I want to get to,

but we're not there yet. What do you notice is happening in this example right here? I'm coming to realize I'm also not getting what I need. Why is Shannon's decision can't enjoy on mine. Shannon, what do you notice? I'm receiving a bit of defensiveness about how it played out. I don't remember in the beginning there being conversation around work. I remember the conversation being around. I want to rent both Brooklyn and upstate so that we can make money on that.

What I hear is a lack of agreement on basic facts. What happened? That's number one. I hear each partner going back into their respective corners, no shared vision. So, for example, a shared vision would be, hey, we have a value that we spend holidays with family, or two times a year relationships come before work. I didn't hear that. It was you versus me.

And then I heard waiting, this quote, need for information. Wilson, you mentioned this a lot. I need to get the data. Yeah. Okay. And Chenin, you never mentioned it. I don't think I've heard you say data once. It's quite starkly different worldviews. One person saying, let's be with family. The other person saying, I need to wait for data. And this isn't just about the holiday trip. It's about the dog. It's about a lot of things. So until we come up with a shared way of looking at your finances and, Candidly, your entire relationship, you will each always be boxers in opposite corners of the ring. How does that strike you? I think it's 100% on point.

In your application, Shannon, you wrote, he thinks I'm too conservative and frugal, while I think he is a bit of a dreamer and optimizer. What do you mean by that? Wilson is an artist's visual, very big-patured dreamer. And we joke that I'm sometimes the dream crusher or the dose of reality. He likes to say it feels like if we don't have grounding that things can get lost. Aha. And who's the grounder? That's you. She's raising her hand.

So in other words, are you saying that left to his own devices, you see Wilson as the dreamer who would go into the grounder? who would go into the clouds. We can do this and that and we should do this opportunity and that investment. And your role is to, quote, bring him back to earth. I don't want to be that, you know, person that crosses his dreams. But again, coming back to safety and security,

what we talked about in the beginning, sometimes I feel like I have to do that. The typical word that people use is nag. Often the person who's in that role doesn't want to be there. And they will say that. I don't want to have to control or check what my partner does, but if I don't, things will get out of control. Do you see how the dynamic that you're already in with money is very possible to simply extend to different parts of life? It actually gets worse.

Nobody wants to have to be the dream crusher. So what do you think the solution is to this dreamer dream crusher dynamic? Maybe it's sitting down and aligning on what our big picture vision is for things. that it's shared goal as opposed to, I want this and I want this. Love that. Totally agree. Wilson, what do you say? I think acceptance and love and kindness, willing to fail and willing to let things get messy and having faith. Would you be willing to accept that you are going to lose a certain amount of rent money because you're going to let the house sit empty? You are? Yes. Yes. Okay.

I love that answer. Have you ever actually had that conversation before? Mm-mm. No, 11 years married. How come you guys haven't talked about maybe being willing to accept making a little less from renting whatever property in 11 years? I didn't make money for like six years building the startup, six years. And it was a lot of stress on Shannon.

And I'm very aware. And I regret the harm that. I caused her in those years. I do, really. But I think we've turned a new chapter, and now I'm going to make a lot of money this year. And it's like going from living below the poverty line to living the top tax bracket.

And that's the reality that we're stepping into now. The challenge we have is how do we form a new relationship based on this new reality and shed some of the past, you know? That's a very common thing couples have when something big changes in their lives. In your case, you went from one end of the socioeconomic spectrum to sounds like the other end. Sometimes it's having kids. Sometimes it's health change. That recalibration is really hard, but it can be done.

I'm curious, Wilson, you mentioned regretting the harm you caused her. What harm? When we were building the software, it took much longer than we thought. We thought it was going to be three years. It took six, seven years. And I did have to take on credit card debt and do the whole zero interest shuffle and take one card and pay off the other. And I remember we had that moment in Tobago. and I was talking a city bank or something,

trying to get my 18th zero interest credit card to cover one. And Shannon was just like, this is insane. And she was right, you know, it was insane. That's pretty honest. I really appreciate you, Wilson, saying that. Shannon, have you heard that before? Yeah. Hmm.

How does it feel when you hear it? It feels validating. It also still brings up a lot because It was hard on me. And I felt like I had to hold the ship afloat. And we talked a lot about how do we act in the present moment as opposed to based off a precedent and just trying to recalibrate based of the present moment. Shannon, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

When I was growing up, there was a little bit more of it compared to like my siblings who were old. but there were also times where there wasn't a whole lot of liquid money that my parents had and we had to make certain sacrifices with things. Were you middle class? How would you characterize it? Say upper middle. Okay. All right.

So your family had wealth in assets like real estate, but less so in terms of just available liquid cash to spend? At certain times, yeah. We never wanted for anything. I guess it was just more, you know, certain luxuries that didn't have. Okay. And who worked in your family? Both parents worked.

My dad worked full-time and my mom worked part-time so that she could be home with the kids. What was the dynamic between them as it relates to money? I guess my dad handled bigger things like mortgages and my mom managed day-to-day grocery, cash flow, that kind of stuff. I see where you're going with this. Okay, that's interesting. And what feeling did each of them have towards money? So when it comes to money, mom, what? Feels that she doesn't have enough of it, maybe?

Is anyone seeing any connections here? Yeah. Hmm. Surprise you? Or no? No, it makes sense. Okay. You absorb what you see?

Yeah. That's pretty interesting. Was your dad risk seeking? Oh, he played it pretty safe. I mean, he put his money in some ventures that didn't always pan out, but it wasn't like a risky business, so to speak. Wilson, how about you? Take us back to your childhood.

What do you remember about your family in terms of what they said about money when you were young? My mother was kind of like Shannon tracking all the expenses. My father, definitely more of the dreamer. he was a filmmaker and then he took a job as a tenured professor when he had kids so i gave him mad props that he put put aside the riskier artist's life to raise a family and he took on some risky er real estate investments that that did well but my mom was very against them my mother does not like risk at all. She kind of runs from risk,

whereas my father, I think, is a little more risky. The similarities I see are quite stark. Dad was more risk-seeking, so are you. Mom was risk-averse. Generally speaking, Shannon is as well. It's pretty obvious.

Isn't it amazing how much are it experiences as children shape who we are decades later. Wilson is willing to take big risks, just like his dad. Shannon feels unsafe and insecure about money, just like her mom. And they married each other, just like their own parents did. It's quite remarkable when you think about those patterns. Shannon is still feeling the effects of Wilson not earning for many years while he was building his business. Now we're going to get back to Shannon and Wilson after a quick pause to support our sponsors. This episode of Money for Couples is brought to you by Wild Graeme.

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Masterclass.com slash remit. Now, back to Shannon and Wilson. How do you get lost in the details when it comes to money? Wanting to know all the pieces so that I can make a decision. It seems like when there's money to be made that's involved, things slow down a lot. I think because I've struggled for so long. and had to be conscious of making an extra $2,000 so that I didn't have a credit card bill or something like that. That's right.

The invisible script you are using is I put Shannon through a lot of financial heartache for years, and therefore I need to make as much money as I can to pay her back. No, this is the rutting theme. And part of it is to make up for lost time to also make Shannon feel secure. But I do it to such an extent that it harms our connection in our relationship. Shannon, how does this strike you hearing this? Yeah, it makes sense. And we've had conversations around that recently.

Having lots of money has never been something that's important to me. It's more about just, again, being safe and secure. So I would much rather prioritize presence and time together and family vacations over making a little bit extra money. Wow. Now that is honest. I appreciate both of you. Now I finally think I'm starting to understand what's going on.

This idea of safe and secure is currently inextricably tied up with money. And there's this idea. I think, Wilson, you believe that there's a linear relationship. The more money we have, the more safe and secure Shannon will feel. Therefore, I need to optimize and get the additional rent. Yes. Yeah. 100%.

And what Shannon is saying in so many words is, yes, I do want to feel safe and secure, but merely making more money won't do it. Yeah, 100%. Great. Amazing. Now we're speaking each other's language. This is so good. Thank you both for going through the process

just to get here. Now we can really start to engage. I'll tell you what, though. What surprises me is about the question that you asked on the application. It's not about coming together. it's not about what is the role of family as it relates to money. The question is about Wilson wanting to take out a second mortgage on the house to put more money into stocks.

What the hell? We have 80% equity in our house and a 20% mortgage. So the devil here is in the details. And this isn't like a blanket approach that you can ask chat GPT. or something and say, should I take out a second mortgage? No, you need to know exactly the details. I'm going to go out on a limb right now and tell you, I actually don't think this question is about the ratio of how much equity you have.

I am willing to bet. Shannon's shaking her head no. Shannon? I think it comes down to Wilson wanting to take on more risk and me wanting to feel safe and secure. Probably. wherever you go there you are. The core root issues separating you with money will show up everywhere. They will show up with your jobs. They already have. They will show up with your house. It's showing up right now. They'll show up with your dog. It already has. So you're playing whack-a-mole and you'll be doing that for the rest of your life unless you actually tackle the root cause. The way you see money. More importantly, the way you see it together. I want to look at your conscious spending plan.

Shall we take a look? Sure. All right. Let's see. Wilson, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it? Assets, $1.63 million. Investments, $305,000. Savings, zero.

Debt, $247,000. net worth 1.69 million. Cool. What do you all think about those numbers? I feel like between our house and Wilson's business, if he ever did sell it, we'd be in a good position. Granted those aren't liquid and things could change, but at present, it looks pretty good.

They're not liquid. Money's locked up. Does this remind you of anybody? Yeah, my parents. Take a second and think about it. What does it mean? the fares that it could go away. Okay.

To me it means that there are so many times where our views on money, our feelings towards money, our behaviors towards money were actually shaped 35 years ago. And this is very disconcerting to people to realize that some of the things that we do were predetermined or at least highly influenced decades ago.

You close your eyes and you find yourself in a somewhat similar situation to your family upbringing. Then we look at Wilson. He closes his eyes. He finds himself in quite a similar situation to his family upbringing. If the two of you make no changes,

if you continue going on as you've done, you got a net worth of $1.6 million. That's great. What's likely to happen with the next generation? Yeah, they'll do the same. Yeah, they'll do the same thing. If you have a daughter, your daughter will be bill paying,

playing small, worrying. If you have a son, it's likely. they'll be taken on more risk, optimizing, and we just recreate what we saw from our parents and maybe even beyond. I think there's an opportunity for a cool change. Wilson, how do you feel about the numbers? I feel pretty secure.

Okay. Because the business I'm in is growing rapidly. We're already at this point where we basically own a house outright and we have a great life and I feel good. Okay. Why do you sound angry when you say it? I feel like I look into the future much deeper than potentially Shannon.

Shannon looks at the pluses and minuses of today, whereas I'm stepping and looking ahead. That's why I've always been seeing the vision of where we're going to be amazing. How would she know that your vision of the future is great and that you are going to make that vision a reality? How would she know? And I don't have the answer for it. Ask her. How would you? Well, I guess if we talked about it more,

but I think also if I saw the changes in behavior that would communicate that were on that path, like, okay, we're not in the position we were two years ago. Let's start paying down more on the debt. Or let's maybe not try to optimize renting both places and just go on vacation. I feel like our financial situation has changed, and it would be nice if our actions, I guess, reflected that a little bit. I think I'd carried this baggage of trying to optimize because I'm afraid of not having those $2,000,

which would hurt us as a family unit in the past, and I'm carrying that baggage into the future where things have changed. Okay, now we are getting somewhere. This is a big breakthrough. for Wilson. And now we can understand why he feels the need to optimize, to gather information, to get the data. This is what I was talking about earlier, how people who believe they are data driven are often the most emotional of all. But they use data as a shield to avoid going deeper. I know because I was that person. And deep down, I still am. I have to fight to connect

with my feelings. I suspect that what's going on here has very little to do with data, and more likely it comes from fear, a feeling of scarcity, which makes it easy to hide behind logic because it's scary when you don't have enough. And like me, I suspect he's had a hard time connecting that emotion to his need to optimize. Optimize gives you control. Listen, as I ask him to connect how he feels about this with his partner. Wow. This is a powerful moment. Take a second and just really feel how you both feel about each other right now.

I feel more connected, which actually takes it back to what we talked about in the very beginning, that if we were on the same page, we would feel more connected to each other. Agreed. How about you, Wilson? Yes, I feel definitely much more connected. That was really cool. There were lots of subtle behaviors and phrases that I noticed that made that very special. Wilson, I noticed you writing something down.

And I could see the way you were writing, you're like, oh, I need to do this. I need to start changing the way that I optimize everything. I thought that was amazing. And I think that when something like that happens in a relationship, talk about it. Wilson, in your case, hey, I realize I need to not be behaving the same way I did for the last few years because I want to turn a page. So that's awesome. I also think it's really vulnerable and really cool, Wilson, that you originally said, I'm a little frustrated. We've gone from one end of the socioeconomic spectrum to the other. And one thing you just realized is you also play a part in that. You're still

optimizing like you were five years ago when that $2,000 made a huge difference. Yeah. And I think it's cool that you acknowledge that I think would be even cooler if you talked about that and led with that vulnerability. Hey, I'm looking at these net worth numbers and I'm really proud of how far we've come. We went through a lot. Shannon, I know that it was really hard for you and I know that you want to feel safe about money and some of the things that I had to do, some of the decisions that I made, I know sometimes

they made you feel unsafe. I'm so thankful that you were there and that you are here with me. And I know that we have an amazing future we're going to build together. But I just wanted to thank you. I just wanted to take a second and acknowledge how much you've put in and how we could have only done this together. That's the kind of way to connect with your partner. how would it feel? It would feel great and I think would be helpful

to know that there has been a shift as opposed to just operating in the same mode. Yeah, that's a great conversation to have. Both of you,

it's like, hey, we went through some really tough times together. And now that we have come out the other end, not only is there a light at the end of the tunnel,

we're in the light. That's that feeling. All right. I like seeing the net worth. that's awesome. As you can tell, the net worth is one, two, three, four, five numbers,

but the numbers are not the point. It's everything we just talked about beneath the numbers. That's the rich life. The numbers are, yeah, they're important, but they don't tell the whole story. We'll continue our review

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demystifying AI at netsuite.com slash remit. That's net suite.com slash remit. Now let's get back to Shannon and Wilson's conscious spending plan. All right. Let's continue through the CSP. Okay. Shannon, can you read off the gross combined monthly income? 13,916.

Okay, cool. 13,916. Your annual household income is $167,000 a year. Did you know that? It's more of that. Our tax return is more than that.

So that's a no. And Shannon, did you know that? No, I didn't. Okay, good. Zero percent of people on this call knew that. All right. That's kind of interesting for a couple that's, at least one of you's into the

DEDA! Let's continue. Fixed cost. Shannon, what's that number there? 76%. Oh, what do you think about that? High. That's high.

We'll go through it in a minute, but right now you're way above where most people are. And guess what? This is why, at least one of you, feels anxious about money. Right here, this number, 76%. That's the reason why. Okay, let's keep moving. Investments are at 13%. Savings are at 22%.

And then guilt-free spending is at negative 11%, which is how I know that the numbers on this are not accurate. What the hell? So let me make a guess. You just added 34 long-term emergency fund like in the last month, correct? No, we decided on it two months ago, but I understood that section that it was the goal,

not what we're doing right now. What is this? Like an aspirational CSP? What is this? Well, it said goals, so I didn't know if it was actually what was savings now. Because at the top, if you see it says no, nothing in savings. Okay, okay, okay.

All right, that's clever. We can definitely make changes, no doubt. What do you see on this CSP, Shannon, that explains part of why you feel the way you do about money? The monthly debt payments are very high. You are currently paying $2,241 a month towards debt. I agree. So that makes you feel what? insecure and safe, I would like to get that number down by paying off lump sums.

Okay, fine. What else do you see on here? I feel like that would make the biggest dent in the fixed cost. Right now, you're not actually saving anything towards savings. It's zero. Correct? Yeah. You think maybe that has anything to do with how you don't feel safe around money? Yeah. I would love to do an emergency fund. Yeah. I would feel unsafe. If I lived in Brooklyn, I have relatively high expenses, and I had no emergency fund, what if one of you gets sick or something happens, somebody gets laid off?

That's risky. All right, I would fix that. Okay? Awesome, amazing. If you both agree, how come you haven't put money towards savings? Because we've got to refinance the house. We do not have to refinance the house. He wanted to either refinance the mortgage or take out more equity on the house.

What is the relationship between that and having an emergency? fund. This is very simple. I'm going to make it very, very simple. When you take $200,000 in cash and you do a giant renovation, it goes into the equity of the house. Most people take a construction loan or something like that, or they just buy a house with 80-20. We didn't do that. Okay. This has obviously been a repeated conversation between the two of you, right? Yeah. Do you know how I can tell that, Wilson? No, it's pretty clear. I definitely have, I'm sorry, I apologize. I have a tone and sorry. Yeah, it's okay. I appreciate. It's almost like this topic is really triggering. It's almost like both of you go into your own corners. And let me speak as someone who understands most of personal

finance, but I can also put myself in Shannon's shoes. Watching your energy just now. It's like, Let me make it simple. 80% this, I'm like, look at my body language. I'm physically retreating. Look at me. I'm back here. I'm feeling attacked. And I don't even understand what the fuck you're talking about.

80% what? All I know is you're yelling at me. That's not connective. No, right? It's not. So, again, not pointing fingers here. Just sharing the dynamic that I see. So you have $0 in your savings account.

that's a problem. It's a financial problem. It's also an emotional problem because one or both of you should feel unsafe about this. We know that you do, Shannon. Wilson, do you feel unsafe about this? Doesn't bother me that much. Why is that? Like if something happened, if one of you lost their job, what do you do? You all have a fixed cost every month of $8,842. Where would the money come from? We would refinance. We would sell stock. We would cut expenses. We don't spend a ton. $8,000 a month, like clockwork. Where would the money come from?

Yeah, I guess we would have to trim assets or refinance. Okay. This is a big problem. The two of you don't see money the same way. And it's reflective of this one cell right here. Savings, $0. Now we're really getting into it. Because if somebody wants to live their life going like,

ah, it's actually not that big of a deal. If one of us got laid off or something horrible happened, and we could do this, we could do that, we could do this. And the other partner is like, I don't want to get into that situation. I don't want to have to sell assets. We got to get on the same page so that we can take that worry away. Shannon, how would it feel if that question was off the table? I would feel a lot more comfortable not having to worry about that.

And that's why I think having the emergency fund would be good because at least that gives us a buffer. If worst case scenario happens, at least if we have an emergency fund, we have a buffer and configure things out. Yeah. Okay. Do we all agree that having a larger savings account is important? Okay. Cool. Let's stipulate that.

Great. I want to bring this CSP up again because I have another question. So you have your gross monthly income. You have your net monthly income. But then you also have rental income. Your rental income per month is $3,834. Here's my question. Is that number already included in your net monthly income?

income? No. No, it's on top. Yeah. Okay, so shall we make that change to the CSP? Because that considerably changes things. Sure. Yeah, I just didn't know the best way to put it in there. All right. Because that's the pre-tax number, so I wasn't sure which... Do you know the post-tax number? No. Should we just make it up? Joe? Sure. What do you want to say? Who the hell knows? 2,800? Let's be conservative. What do you think? Sure. All right. Let's take a look here. Okay, well, that changes things a lot. So what happened to everybody who's listening is The fixed cost number just went from 76% to 61%. Okay.

But let me tell you something else. Let's keep going down because it's quite interesting. Your investments are at 10%. Okay. Savings are at 18%, which we know is not real, but theoretically it could be. And your guilt-free spending is at 10%, which is better than negative 11%, but it's a little low. Now we are starting to understand the true full picture.

which is we got to look at our debt in a second. We know that our guilt-free spending is probably inaccurate, but we're in the universe. All right, let's keep going. So you're all investing about $23,000 a year. Did you know that? No. I didn't think about it much.

I mean, I know that we always try to do the max for our Roth, and I do as much as I can with the 401K based off of the company match. part of moving from scarcity to safety and abundance is actually zooming out of playing small and taking full stock. You invest over $20,000 per year. That's a lot of money. But the fact that you never knew that is just one more clue of why you will forever feel unsafe around money because you're not looking at the core numbers that matter.

So this is a really important moment. These are big numbers. We are talking about over the course of your lifetime, millions. We have to be focusing on these things. Okay? This is great. $23,000 a year, ballpark. All right, let's continue looking at this.

I understand that your portfolio of investments is in two-thirds in real estate and one-third in equity, stocks, and a little bit of crypto. And I believe, Wilson, you feel like that should be swapped. Instead of two-thirds in real estate, it should be one-third in real estate. Is that correct? Yeah, or maybe 50-50. However, what I've realized in doing the conscious spending plan is my business is high-risk.

And that's actually something I'm not really accounting for in this. So I actually have come to the realization that, Maybe we are exactly where we need to be right now. Okay, because you have high risk on one end of the barbell, and then you have this real estate property on the other end? More or less, yes. Okay. Shannon, are you following this conversation?

Yeah, I guess it's news to me that you see your business as risky. Wilson, you suggested pulling equity out of the house that you own because you have a lot of equity in it, 80% equity, and you want to take the equity out and do what? I'd like to create our cushion or safety, $50,000 safety. Do you still feel you should take equity out of the house? Definitely for the $50,000 cushion that we want. I think we should, yes.

Okay. And what would be the method that you would use to extract equity from the house? We would probably take second mortgage because that's probably actually better than refinancing because we have such a low rate. What do you think about that, Shannon? It still makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable, and Wilson is supposed to get some significant commission checks in the next year, and I would almost rather just take those commission checks, put that into the emergency fund, rather than having to take out more equity on the house. Okay. Have you two argued, debated, discussed this topic before? Oh, yes. We kind of just come to.

to a, I guess, a stopping point. Still mate. Yeah. So it's like, Wilson's like, we should do this. We have a lot of equity, 80%. And then Shannon's like, that feels really risky to me. There's all these other ways of doing it. And then you both just end the conversation.

Yeah. Okay. So what are you guys going to do? I think a lot has been flushed out in this podcast. I almost think it's a take a few days to kind of sleep on it and maybe bring it up in our next huddle about what we learned and what are some new approaches that we could take that would be respectful and make each other feel validated and secure. Let me just cut in quickly to explain what I'm seeing here.

Wilson is falling back to his fail safe, waiting, being indecisive. because he's uncomfortable right now. I don't want to let that happen. It's hard to change, but we have to start right now, even with baby steps. If I let him do what he's suggesting, literally sleeping on this decision, coming back with fresh eyes,

this same pattern is going to continue. I'm not going to let that happen. Changing this dynamic is hard, but we have to start now. Listen as I challenge him to be decisive. Sometimes more time is not, going to help you make a better decision. This is a very important worldview that I would encourage you to incorporate, which is my wife and I have talked about this explicitly. One of our core values

is being decisive. We are both entrepreneurs. We both run a busy household and businesses, and we have seen people who are stricken by indecision. They can't make a decision about what vacuum cleaner to buy. Spent two months freaking Googling around. It is a superpower to be able to be decisive and to know when is a decision important and when is it trivial. So like if I'm you, Wilson and Shannon, both of them nodding already because you both know where I'm going with this. We have time right now. Let's make some decisions right now instead of adding more homework for you all to talk about in your next huddle. Let's look at the debt. The house has $127,000 of debt on it. We have a student loan at $88,000. What's a tax loan? It's a

repayment on taxes owed. Why do you have that? A few years ago, we got a lump sum of money and Wilson wanted to pay it as a payment plan. Why? We put in the stock market and it's gone up 10x, so I guess that was a good decision. I guess that's true. It did work out that way in the end. You know, you all got lucky.

Stock market's been on a tear. That's good. Okay, let's just finish this off and then I'm going to tell you some observations. Finally, you have a credit card loan, CC loan at $10,000. What is that? Credit card debt? It's a loan. You take out like a five-year loan at, I think it's like five or five and a half percent. All right. So you have like $112,000 of like debt aside from your mortgage. Yep. What do you all think about that? I think it's pretty good. How come you say that? I think for the ratio of what we have in terms of assets and stocks and everything else that's

growing, I think we're doing okay. But you said pretty good, like with a big smile on your face. Just to be very direct, I would not be okay with having $110,000 of non-mortgage debt. No fucking way. I would be very scared and I know money. Shannon, I want to check in with you. How are you feeling? I agree that that level of non-mortgage debt makes me feel uncomfortable,

and I would love to just get laser-focused on paying that off. What would it mean to you? I feel like it would be such a weight off of my shoulders. When I went to grad school, I came out with debt, and for me, I just wanted to pay it off as fast as humanly possible, and I did that, and it was such a relief. it's kind of like something that money can't buy for me personally. And I think I would feel the same way if we were able to pay off that debt and get an emergency fund.

I feel like I would just be able to be a little bit more free and maybe less controlling. You mentioned a weight on your shoulders. Do you feel like you currently have a weight on your shoulders? Yeah, when it comes to money, definitely. It feels heavy. It feels a little bit suffocating. it doesn't feel like I can make decisions as freely as I would like to, having that kind of hanging over my head.

Okay. Thank you. Wilson, what do you notice about this? I know it causes Shannon discomfort. We're different, and I know I need to respect that. And this is part of the, you know, trying to come to an understanding of moving forward, right? Shannon, I don't blame you for feeling anxious. I would feel the same way.

And what's worse is that you have this debt, but the two of you have not really settled on what this debt means to you. Let's find out. Is this debt good or bad? For me, it's bad. The student loan could get paid down a little bit, but I don't think it's like shockingly bad. And I also think part of it is there hasn't been a path to pay it down because the income hasn't been. been there. Now it's starting to be there. Do you see how the two of you don't agree on the debt? How can you row to a certain destination when the two of you don't even agree with the destination is? Can we zoom out of the debt for a second? Can we just talk about your own relationship and how you see money?

What is your rich life? I want to have free time to do the things I love, like make art, hike with my wife, go on vacation with my wife, play with my dog more. Okay. I love the video. I love the vision. If that's the case, then things like taking a holiday, you chose not to. That seems to contradict your vision of a rich life. How do you reconcile that? Because I have this reality of needing to make more money in order to do that, in order to pay down debt, in order to do all these other things. But I think one thing that's been unlocked recently is Shannon not caring about that as much wanting me to be or present. It's a really good insight.

Shannon, can I ask you the same question? What is your rich life? I would love to be able to help my parents off financially in their retirement, help my, you know, sister out. I would love to be able to go on one nice trip a year and not have to worry about the cost of a dog sitter. You know, we love to eat well.

I would say that sums it up. Does your visions work together? I think they do on quite a few stuff. I mean, we both want to take a nice trip every year. We both love to eat. We both want to spend quality time with each other and with our families. Okay. I like that.

Since you both have agreement on taking a trip every year, where can I see that on the conscious spending plan? Right now we have not budgeted for it, but if we did start with the $1,000 a month, we could do that this summer. There's no way. You can't take a vacation before an emergency fund. And also, I don't see how you do.

take a vacation when you have $110 plus $1,000 of debt? We did talk about that actually, like a week or two ago, like, maybe it's not realistic to do that this year and that maybe we could do something local instead. He sold like a Vermont house and that he wanted to just do it because we could rent out our house basically for more money and go somewhere. I think it's cool that you guys have potentially two rental properties, but I think it's complicating things unnecessarily. Like, you really have let the...

tail wag the dog. It's like, well, we have this house, but we should take a second mortgage, and also we shouldn't go on this trip because we might not rent it. And like, it's causing so much havoc when in reality, it's actually not changing the fundamental problem of your finances. You have way too much debt and you have not directed your money appropriately. House or no house, that doesn't change. And in fact, you're letting yourselves be distracted by this house. Do you all see that? How much energy are you expending on, let's wait two months to see about the rental market, blah, blah, blah. No, that's not changing the fact that you don't have a debt payoff plan.

But we do. I pay $850 a month. I don't want jokes. I want seriousness. This is a serious issue. Okay. So I have a suit alone. I'm paying it every month.

I haven't missed one payment. Okay. What's the month and year your debt will be paid off? 14 years from now. And the IRS bill will be paid off in a year and a year and. and a half. Okay, that's good. And the credit card loan? Two years. So two years, 18 months, and 14 years. Yes. Okay. First of all, let me give it up. I did not think you would know those answers. I am impressed. Very impressive. That's awesome. 95% of people in debt do not know

their debt payoff date. That's awesome. Now, knowing that you know your debt payoff date, Shannon, what do you think about that? I did not want to be in debt for 14 years. 14 years means, Wilson, you will be 60 years old. And Shannon, you'll be around 50. All right, so you don't want to be in debt. So you're saying you want to pay more towards debt now. The first thing I would like to do is refinance the student loans

because we can refinance to get a lower interest rate. Fine. And then I would love to pay off as much as we can a month. And I would love to take some of the commission checks that are supposed to come and just wipe it out. What I hear is you hyper-fixating on the debt. The debt is important. The debt is bad.

I agree. Yeah. But if you spend your entire life looking at debt, debt, debt, debt, debt, debt, debt, debt, one, you're never going to feel good about money. And two, you're actually not even going to take yourself seriously because you're also talking about going on vacation every year. We need to be realistic. We need to be aggressive about the debt.

We also need to realize that there is more to your rich life than all. putting all your money towards debt, which is a lie. I agree. Okay. So you want to make debt a priority. I hear you. I agree. Wilson, I know you've been itching to speak up on this.

Wilson's like, finally, this guy is telling her it's not only about debt. Like I said, you know, I had a realization in doing the plan about our assets. I think it would be nice to refinance. I think it would be nice to take a chunk of a check and pay off some of it. Maybe we even figure out, okay, if we get any bonuses, whether it's me or you and some portion of our monthly salaries, and we say, okay, it's going to pay off, you know, this percent is going to go to debt, this percent is going to go to savings, this percent, maybe we'll go to some vacation or not. That's a good idea.

How much are we talking about in terms of these commission checks? It's hard to say right now, but it's probably six figures. Can we safely say 200K? Yeah, I think that would be a good year. Let's be conservative. Let's say 200 K. So what are you going to do with 200K? Have you all discussed it?

We've said we're going to put some in the stock market. We're going to pay off some of the debt. We're going to get that $50,000 safe fund. That's where it's going to go. Did you all actually come up with percentages? No. No. Just, what?

Let's put it off till another day. Huh? You guys, this is what being decisive is about. It's about not creating more work for yourself. Let's just pick a number. Break it down by percentage. Knowing your priorities. One third, one third, one third.

I think that's like the simplest. You like simple. Hold on, hold on. You like simplicity. Hey, Wilson, this is a good opportunity for you guys to learn how to actually have an effective conversation about money. Effective means you're not all just like, tossing numbers out first. It's actually the two of you talking. So we're going to do this exercise

right now. How do you want to show up in this conversation? I want to be understanding. So I think I would like to ask Shannon. What does she think this looks like? I want to show up with an open mind that takes both my and Wilson's priorities into consideration. Open mind. I love that. Give me one more. Who is somebody who's really confident and good with money? You. Okay. Use me as an example. That's fine.

How would I show up in a conversation like this? Decisive. Love that. Keep going. Assertive. Yeah. Keep going. Have a clear vision and be considerate of my partner.

Beautiful. And thank you very much. I appreciate that. Sometimes when we don't have the words to describe ourselves of how we want to show up, we can think about people we know. Sometimes we can use TV or movie characters. Or if you can't think of anybody, use me. It's totally fine.

Okay, both of you, close your eyes and internalize how you are going to show up in this amazing opportunity of a conversation. Okay, we now get to talk about the amazing opportunity of having an extra $200,000 commission check. Go ahead and have the conversation together. What if we start with a ratio that's heavy on the debt and the savings first, and then, because we will get the emergency fund. Pause. Yep.

Time out. Hold on. How the fuck do you make a timeout signal? I haven't done that in 30 years. Whatever. Time out. I feel like you two are already in the weeds and you're going towards disaster. I feel like the two of you jumped right into logistics.

And we're not talking about, ooh, should we? eat at this restaurant or that. Do you guys want to get the squid? No, you have 200,000 extra dollars after all the heartache that you've gone through. After all these debt that you've incurred, not one person wanted to say, you know what? Before we get into what we want to do with this, I just want to take a second and say how much I love you. Yeah, we probably need more of that. Yes, you do. You might say something like, you know, I realize that when we talk about money, so much of the time, I feel like I don't bring my best self to our conversations. And I know when you are at your best, you are funny, you are considerate.

You make me a better person by you being a better person. But somehow, we've both gotten into a dynamic, and I want to change that. So we get to talk about something amazing, what we get to do with extra money. I didn't do this alone. You didn't do this alone. And no. Now we get to actually decide together where this money goes. I appreciate you sticking with me when things got tough. I love you. And I love that we get to do this together. Yeah, you know what?

We don't do that enough. It's really missing what you just said, big time, I would say. We just talk about the doom and gloom of everything. Yeah, I think it would just set the tone in the right ways so that we're having a fruitful, enjoyable, productive conversation around money as opposed to being in the weeds. Shall we try it again? I'll start.

Shannon, this has been an amazing journey and look what we've built. I couldn't have done it without you. And now we're stepping into a new year that I think is the beginning of a lot of great years ahead. And first, I love you. and thank you for being my partner in this journey. And if you want to take the first 50K and put it to the fun, let's do it. Thank you for that. I'm so grateful for how we bring something to each other's lives that we don't have.

And I do think we balance each other in a really special way. And I want to build that life with you where we don't have to be in the weeds and can focus on the shared vision that we have. and I also am really grateful that we now have a much more insightful understanding of why we make certain decisions or have certain thoughts about money that I don't think we had before and I want to continue to build on that. We haven't gotten to a single number yet and that's a good thing. How do you both feel? Great.

I feel relieved and I also feel very seen. What an amazing transformation. 10 out of 10, amazing. These are the ways that we talk about money. In our family, you might say, we always start our money conversations with a compliment. Because now, when the two of you talk about how to split up the pie of $200,000, you're not moving salt and pepper around the table.

You are filled with appreciation. Money isn't just numbers. Money is the work you did. Money is your dog being able to be safe and taken care of. Money is the two of you honoring your families. We get there by having conversations like this. So I'm very proud of watching both of you do that. Give yourselves a round of applause.

That was amazing. Do you think that the two of you could have more conversations like that? Yeah. And I think also if we genuinely show up with that tone, because I think sometimes we start by saying, we're going to have this conversation with love and kindness, and it doesn't necessarily feel genuine always. And so showing up with something that's more heartfelt

just feels like a much better baseline to start with. I agree. I noticed that the first time we did this, both of you had good words as to how you wanted to show up, but you just jumped right into the numbers. Somebody who's bold and assertive does not jump right into business. because as you put it, Shannon, they are considerate. Considerate means stopping, checking in, how are you doing?

And then you would get down to whatever the topic is. We have to remember sometimes even though this is the person you love the most. Sometimes we need to just slow it down. Now, you said yes, you can have this type of conversation again. I totally agree. Do you think you could have this type of conversation around more challenging topics like, for example, taking a second mortgage? Yes, I do. I still have fear that we would come to the same end point.

Agreed. I don't quite think you yet have the tools to know how to create a shared vision. I think that what happens is you both retreat into your own corners. Here's my view. Here's why I think we should do it. And then you hear them out, but you're really just listening to know when they're done talking so you can present more of your view. And then you both stalemate. it kind of sucks right yeah and then you end up doing what is a common thing which is like all right let's figure it out next month oh i hate that i hate that for so many reasons including more time is not going to make us make this decision yeah so let's take a different approach let's do the house thing for a second let's talk about it so let's assume that you all have the conversation

about this commission check and some of that money goes towards paying off the debt. Can we agree on that? Yeah. Okay, well, both of you are in agreement. Great. Can we also agree that some amount of that commission check goes to an emergency fund? Yes. Okay. Agreement on that. Fantastic. So what's to discuss about the house? Doing this conscious spending plan, shine a flashlight on our assets. And despite us having whatever, 700 grand in real estate and stocks, there is the whole company, and that's a lot higher risk. So maybe this is exactly where we need to be. I think Shannon has the best approach that once the commission check comes in,

then we'll pay off debt. Cool. Shannon? I love hearing that, and it's a sigh of relief to hear you say that. Wilson, are you sure? You talked a lot about wanting to take a second mortgage out. No more second mortgage? I'm trying to be decisive. Okay. Shannon? you cool with that? I love that and I love that. We'll have a recording of that statement. That's a secret benefit of this podcast. It's all recorded everybody.

I know. It kind of scares me. Well, I appreciate that, Wilson. That actually takes a lot. Seeing you demonstrate being decisive is amazing. It is the best way to show, Shannon, that you are committed to me. making changes. And that is you simply saying, like, got it. We talked about it. I heard you.

You're right. Your approach of paying off debt aggressively is good. We don't need to take a second mortgage. So let's do a couple of other things here. I would highly recommend you aggressively prioritize these two main goals. Number one, emergency savings. Number two, debt payoff. One last thing. Can we talk about retirement? Right now, you have $305,000 in investment. I understand some of that's in crypto and et cetera. Let's just consider it all, for the sake of simplicity. We'll consider it all low-cost index funds. You're contributing approximately $23,000 per year in investments.

Years to grow? 19? All right. How much do you all think you're going to have? A million bucks. Okay. No, eight million bucks. Wow.

Now, this is a big range. One partner says one million. says 8 million. Well, the answer is about $2 million, which means, using relatively conservative assumption of 4% per year, you would have about $81,000 per year of safe income. How does that strike you both? That's not a whole lot to live off of, especially if you live in New York. Agreed. Okay. Wilson? Yeah, it's probably not enough. I agree that 81,000, even though it already factors inflation in, that's not a lot of money. If you live in Brooklyn, you probably like a pretty nice life. But right now, you're not on track to have enough for the type of retirement I am assuming

you want. Would you agree? Yeah, it doesn't align with what we said we wanted. That's right. So, what changes, if any, would you like to make regarding your investments? I mean, I would love to invest more, but I do want to prioritize debt and savings first. So I think once we kind of get a handle on those two things, I think we could invest significantly more each year. Yeah, sounds like a good plan. How certain are you of these commission checks per year? I mean, it's a whole new business starting, so it's new, but our subscription is growing fast too. So, Shannon, what about your employment? would you consider switching employment, getting a raise, starting a side business? All of the above. I did have my own business before and I have been exploring other side businesses now.

Well, it's not clear if you need to get another job. I'm certainly not saying that. But what is clear is that on your current path, you probably won't have enough for the type of retirement you want. That part is enough. So let's just quickly lay out all the options because there's a lot. We already talked about, Shannon, you getting a different job, a different industry, a side business, fine. All those are out on the table. Wilson? My income is growing exponentially, so I think we're on a path to have a lot more than $2 million by the time you retire. The way I might phrase that is I'm on an upward trajectory in terms of my salary and my commissions, and I propose that we take at least 25% and put that directly into index funds. Yeah. That's cool.

So that's how we go that one extra step. That's also how Shannon, you start to feel good like, okay, now I'm seeing a vision. We have a plan for the debt. Amazing. We have a plan for the emergency fund. Amazing. And a plan for future investing. Yes.

Now that's exciting. and now that you know, even though you haven't yet seen all of it, come to fruition, at least you've both have an agreement, you've written it down, you can always tweak it later, now you can start to feel good about money.

Yeah, I can actually see what the game plan would look like, opposed to it being sort of, this might come soon and we'll figure it out then kind of thing. Awesome work, the two of you. I'm really proud of both of you. I want to thank Shannon and Wilson for a really, really substantive conversation. We made some breakthroughs in areas that I think are going to have a very positive impact on their relationship and their finances.

You heard me talk a lot about Wilson's initial interest in taking a second mortgage. I'm relieved that in a moment of being decisive, Wilson decided that wasn't the right choice for him and Shannon. What a moment. When you're talking about a second mortgage, it's important to know that this is a very advanced concept. And it's definitely not a move to make when you have $120,000 in debt. That's crazy. My wish for Shannon Wilson is for them to fight for simplicity. Today, they learned a few tools to be able to do that. And now it's up to them to decide if they're going to keep

going with that strategy. Let's hear from them. They sent follow-up videos up first, Wilson. So the biggest surprise is how impactful this podcast and interview has been in all areas of our relationship. In particular, how much time we waste arguing about something insignificant. Focusing on three important issues for the year and not getting detracted by some stupid $60 charge or me wanting to optimize for a living situation so that I can say, save 500 bucks at the expense of missing Christmas. We never celebrate successes. It's always doom and gloom, no matter what it is.

So a big takeaway was starting every conversation with a compliment or focusing on the wins and successes. And now Shannon's follow-up. My biggest takeaway was Wilson expressing that when we take his business into consideration, He was open to having more investments in real estate. That was a big relief for me. I felt very validated in that moment. And I also think that had we not done the conscious spending plan,

that we wouldn't have been able to see the bigger picture. So that was really helpful. In terms of biggest takeaways, my fares around debt were somewhat validated, but also realizing that maybe both Wilson and I are living a bit too much in the mindset of where we were five, years ago, we need to kind of approach money conversations and all conversations from a place of where we are right now. And so just trying to flip that switch in the brain. Another takeaway was

that collectively we're being a bit too indecisive around things and we're just wasting a lot of energy by not deciding things. In terms of specific changes, I really, I'm looking forward to creating a joint sort of like vision board or life dream board, um, where we're, we're going to, we're we can both sort of have a place to dream freely. And for me, not to get bogged down in the logistics. I'm also really looking forward to setting aside some time to decide what our values are as a family. So I think if we're able to set those values out from the onset,

then then we don't get bogged down in the indecisiveness. I'm not making decisions. And I think something that will be very helpful for any of these conversations is just to have a lot of compassion, genuine compassion for each other and where we're coming from, before even getting to talk about the money, because we definitely, I think, get a little bit too in the weeds.