Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 216. I track every penny. He gambles. Should I marry him?

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

Taylor (29) is a high-earning dentist with a strict savings plan and deep-rooted fears about financial instability. Hayden (25) earns $24K a year, has a history of gambling and financial dishonesty, and struggles with budgeting. They live together, but their vastly different money philosophies leave Taylor questioning whether marriage is possible. With trust issues, income imbalance, and emotional baggage on both sides, can they find common ground—or is it time to walk away? In this episode we uncover: • Taylor’s strict financial boundaries—and why Hayden feels constantly judged by them • The real reason Hayden hides purchases (and what it’s costing their relationship) • Why Taylor resents being the financial provider, and how it’s creating a growing power imbalance • A candid conversation about Hayden’s past gambling—and whether trust can be rebuilt • How their radically different upbringings shaped two completely opposing money mindsets • The unspoken tension around engagement—and what’s holding Taylor back from proposing • Taylor’s biggest fear: ending up broke and alone • Hayden opens up about insecurity, dependence, and feeling “less than” • What they really want from each other—and why neither feels safe enough to ask Chapters: (00:00:00) “He gets to do whatever he wants with his money” (00:07:22) Ramit breaks down their numbers (00:20:58) “Why have all that money if you don’t plan to spend it?” (00:28:27) How childhood trauma shaped their views on money, control, and survival (00:37:44) A secret $35K loss—and the fallout that nearly ended everything (00:49:15) “Most of what I do with money is to get her off my back” (01:01:12) Is change still real if it’s only for someone else? (01:03:56) A new plan, a new mindset—but will it stick? (01:13:36) Where are they now? Taylor and Hayden’s follow-ups This episode is brought to you by: Upwork | Visit https://upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. Facet | Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to https://facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Netsuite | Download the free e-book 'Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders' at https://netsuite.com/ramit Fabric by Gerber Life | Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at https://meetfabric.com/ramit. Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to https://masterclass.com/ramit Links mentioned in this episode • Get my 4 simple rules for talking with your partner about money Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years.

And another member made a rule that any time she buys a ticket for an event, she always buys a second so that she can bring a friend. These are just a few examples of how my money coaching members have built systems to use their money. Notice that there's no more anxiety, that they have a smooth running system. They know when their debt's going to be paid off. They can feel comfortable spending on the things they love. They can actually spend less time on their finances while living an amazing life. In my money coaching program, members also get access to live events every month, including topics like money with aging parents and how to create a lot.

amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel, plus Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join the program right now. Do you trust Hayden with money? Not my money. I got into it really bad. Definitely became a habit, an addiction. I find out he blew $40,000 and wasn't paying me shit.

Wasn't offering me a dime. Most of the things that I do with money is just to get Taylor off my bat. I was devastated because I never wanted to feel like a man was just living off of me. Where did you go from there? It seems like it would be really tough to recover from. I think in a way we're still recovering from it. And out of curiosity, how much of that type of thinking do you do with your own money? I don't do any of it.

Money comes in and it goes right out. I want this to work so badly. Today I'm speaking with Taylor and Hayden. Taylor is 29. Hayden is 25. Listen to what Taylor wrote on her application. Quote, I cannot seem to get over the fact that he will not track his money

and be financially responsible. We want to get married sometime in the next two years, but money issues is one of the reasons that we haven't gotten engaged yet. I'm scared of what our future could look like if he doesn't get a hold of his spending or start budgeting. It's very serious to me, but doesn't seem very serious for my partner. When she uses words like scared, serious and responsible, those are not casual words. She's really asking if she can trust her partner with her future.

Let's take a look now at their conscious spending plan. You can download your own for free at IWT.com slash CSP so you can know your four key numbers. Together they earn nearly $200,000 per year. Taylor brings in $14,614 a month. Hayden earns $2,000 a month. And it is a source of real tension in their relationship. Taylor's side of the CSP is pretty clean. Fixed cost 42%, savings 11, investments 11,

guilt-free spending 36. No notes. A little high on guilt-free spending, but okay, keep in mind they are not married yet so they keep their finances separate. And on Hayden's side, we see things are a different story. Fixed costs 67%. Savings, 51%. Investments 5%. Guilt free spending, negative 23%. Very confusing. I have a lot of questions. So let's meet Taylor and Hayden. Can I just ask you guys in plain English? It took a lot of work for you to get here. What do you guys want to get out of this? What do you really want to

get out of this? I want Taylor to feel more comfortable being in a relationship with me. I want to feel like I can trust Hayden, especially financially. Do you trust Hayden with money? Not my money. Why not? I like to use my money very responsibly. I like to save, and that is just not what Hayden likes to do. And so I think that makes me nervous. How long have you been feeling nervous about Hayden's relationship with money. Realistically, since we got together, but not enough to feel like I have any say until we moved in together.

Hayden, do you trust Taylor with money? She's so tight with her money. She's very responsible with her money. She's never given me a reason not to trust her. Okay. Is tight the same thing as responsible with money to you? To me, no.

Me and her do disagree on that. I do think she's tight with her money in sometimes an irrational way. But at the same time, it's hard to say that she's not also responsible with the money. So she's tight sometimes, but also responsible? I would say it's a cocktail of both all of the time. Okay, gotcha.

All right. So you're living together, you're not married. How do you currently handle money in your household? I think, do we is a good question. because right now he is working part-time and trying to go back to school and paying off debt. That's primarily where his money is going. So I really cover all of the household's costs. How long have you been living together?

April, 23. Okay, so like a couple of years. So, Taylor, to be clear, you're paying all of the household expenses right now. Mm-hmm. Outside of like $100 that I give wherever you call. Yeah, he gives me like $100. Oh, where did that $100? come from? It was actually a compromise from our couples counselor. We're in couples therapy and we

talked to our therapist about this. And we came up with that because I don't mind paying for everything in the house, but sometimes it feels like he doesn't have any skin in the game whatsoever. So he gets to just do whatever he wants with his money, whereas I have to be responsible with my money because it's our life on the line. And we kind of agreed on that. Okay. And how do you feel about that exercise and that arrangement? I really wish I could do more. It bothers me that she holds all the way financially. I think ideally I would be contributing equitably. Why does it bother you just out of curiosity? I mean, like her feeling like I'm not invested. I think that bothers me that I'm making her feel that way, I guess. Did you catch what Taylor just said? He gets to do whatever he wants with his

money while I have to be responsible because it's our life on the line. That is a powerful statement. Hayden is not contributing equally to their expenses and he knows it. But the standout moment for me is the agreement that they made. Hayden contributes $100 a month to shared expenses. And that number isn't random. It came out of his session with their couples therapist. Taylor wanted him to have some, quote, skin in the game. Now, I'm not judging them, but $100 a month for an able-bodied adult in their mid-20s is a pretty low bar. And that is part of the problem. This reminds me of what I call the plight of experts.

Let's say you're a personal trainer. You know that the truth is to have a healthy body and build bone density and muscle mass and all kinds of stuff. You need to work out, let's say three to four hours a week, probably doing some strength training. But try telling that to somebody who hasn't worked out. in 25 years. It's overwhelming. So they simply shut down hearing that advice. So what does an expert do? Well, they reduce their recommendations. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Let's start with 30 minutes. Oh, okay, forget about 30 minutes. How about just to walk once a week? How about just to walk once a

month? The standard gets lower and lower just to get people in the door. I see the same thing with emergency funds. I recommend a 12-month emergency fund, not because it's easy, but because it gives you true financial security, especially when things are particularly uncertain. But whenever I talk about this, I get the same reaction. For me, that's totally unreasonable for most people. Okay, that's why we start with a month, then three months, and six months, and on and on. The goal doesn't change, but we can make the steps feel doable. That's kind of what's happening here with Hayden. He says he wants things to feel equitable, but his income doesn't support that. So they started with $100. Fine, I don't mind it. But there needs to be a vision

of that number going up. I still have a lot of questions about how the rest of their money is set up, so let's dig in to their CSP. Okay. I'm very curious about the numbers. Can we take a look? Yeah, sure.

Okay. So let's keep in mind, you are not married, but you're living together. So is your money in separate accounts? Yeah. It is. Okay.

But for the purposes of this, you also added a combine, which is very helpful. So let's see here. Taylor, can you read off the word in bold and then the combined number in full next to it for this entire box, please. Assets, $8,900. Investments, $83,952, savings, $114,99, and debt, $5,570. Total net worth? $1,381. Okay, I should point out that the majority of the investments are yours, Taylor. So out of

83,000, 82,000 of those are yours. The majority of savings are yours out of 114,113,13,000 are yours. And the debt, $5,500 is Hayden's debt. Okay. How do you feel about those numbers? I'm very proud of Taylor. She's done really well. She has no. debt, saved up so much money invested. Like, she's just, she's kicking s, so I'm really proud of her. Love that. Okay. And how about for you, Hayden? I think for me, I'm not super upset with my numbers, which is kind of where I am right now in life. I'm in a very transitional part of my life. I think sitting next to Taylor as like this super impressive person might bother some people, but it doesn't bother me. Ah, okay. All right. Let's go down to the income section. This time,

Hayden, I'm going to ask you to read off the combined gross monthly income number. Gross monthly income, $16,614. Okay. So that's just about $200,000 a year in household income. Is that correct? No. Yeah, no. What is the actual number?

It's annual. Yeah, annual. 268? That was yours. I think mine was last year like 13,000, so 281. So you're only off by $80,000. Okay. It's a casual, you know, some people lose a couple of quarters in the couch.

Some people forget about $80,000 in gross household income. Who am I to say? Right. Because I get quarterly bonuses, and I didn't know how to break that up monthly. And they're not guaranteed. So that's what I was worried about. Okay, so you didn't include them. Correct.

So are you probably going to get the bonuses this year? Maybe, I think. What's the odds? 70%. 70%. All right. And you think it's going to be less than the amount you got last year? Correct. All right.

So last year you got 80K of bonuses. What would be a reasonable conservative amount to assume you're going to get this year? 40. 40K. 50% of what you made last year in bonuses. Would that be reasonable to assume? Can you feel confident you'll hit that? Yes.

Okay. That's your number. Okay. That's how we do it. We don't let indecision stop us from making projections. We pick a number. We always pick a conservative number because if we're going to get surprised, we're going to get surprised in the positive way, not the negative way, and then we move on with our life. All right, I'm going to update this. We just added $2,500 a month and take home pay. Okay. The income disparity between the two of you is quite striking. Can I ask what each of you does for a living, starting with Taylor?

I'm a dentist. Okay. Hayden? part-time bartend and dabbling real estate. Okay. And were you both in these occupations when you first met? Okay. That's interesting. Hayden, were you earning the same amount when you met as you are now? I was making about three times as much. What happened? I knew. I mean, that's what happened, right? I was at a job when we met. I mean, it was a pretty good gig. We were doing really well. It's a pretty popular bar where I'm from. So then she graduated from dental. school, moved to Knoxville, and then I don't know, like six or eight months later, I was there. Okay. So you moved to be closer to Taylor? Well, yeah, we moved in together. That was the

point of me moving. Okay. And making 60K, you know, that's pretty good living. What happened to the money? Oh, I spent all of it at 21. I was having a lot of phone. Is it different now? Yeah, I'm definitely better with my money now than I ever was making closer to 60. Moving on, fixed cost. What's that percentage, Taylor? 36%. All right. What do you think of that number? I think looks great.

Yeah, that's quite low. Usually, I recommend people have their fixed costs between 50 to 60%. And truthfully, most people are at the higher end of that, if not over. What does that tell you, Hayden? Based off the household income, our life is not very expensive. That's correct. That's exactly right. Your fixed costs, like your housing costs, your auto cost.

They're quite low. And so what that means is you probably have a lot of extra money to do stuff with. I have no critiques because if you're at 36%, I have no notes. But just to go through it, debt payments at $600, that's for your debt, Hayden. Is that right? Yeah, I like to pay around that every month. What's the debt for? There's a little bit of school, IRS, a little bit of credit card.

Okay. All right. When is this debt going to be paid off? I just had a listing go live and went under contract the next day. If that were to close, it would pay off all my debt, all of it. All right. Let's continue moving along. We have your investments.

Investments are at 9%. That's Taylor putting aside $1,000 a month in like a post-tax retirement. And Hayden is putting $83 aside per month. Okay. Cool. Let's keep moving. Savings at 10%. Is this real?

What the hell? Read these numbers off. to me. Long-term emergency zero, wedding, zero, house. I mean, you do have $114,000 in savings. So that's like years and years of savings. Yeah. So the zeros are because I'm done. I've hit my goal, but they're there, but I'm no longer adding to them. Round of applause for that. That is a lovely thing to hear. I'm done. I hit my goals. It's so rare we get to say that, but you did it. Great job. Thanks. Okay, hold on. Hayden, how come you're putting 600 bucks a month aside for vacations? It's not necessarily vacations. That's $600 a month that I'm putting aside is kind of like my

sinking fund so that I can use it during times where it's time to have fun, I guess. Wait, isn't fun like paying off your debt? I mean, it's not very fun. I get that you're using it as a sinking fund. I actually think that's really smart, especially when you have irregular income. And the industries that I work in, it's very much economy-based. I made $2,000 a month, but that's not necessarily the case. Like the past two months, I might have made like $1,300 or $1,200. What do you do when you make $1,300 instead of $2,000? I kind of just figure it out.

I don't have plans in place or anything like that. I make the money, and then I put a certain amount where I know it has to go, and then I'm left with the rest. If it's 200 bucks that month, I might spend it on myself. I might go out to eat or go see a movie or go out with friends, you know, whatever. Okay. Taylor, as you're hearing this, what are you feeling right now? I feel frustrated right now.

I'm just upset, kind of like a little hopeless. Sometimes when I hear him talk, I'm like, I don't understand how that doesn't just give you raging anxiety all the time. but also the things that he does with the money, the actions also just like not what I would do, not what I have done in the past, because there was a time before I was making $268,000. Let's look at the final numbers here and then I want to understand more about your relationships with money.

According to this, you have 45% of money going to guilt-free spending. Now, we all know that's not happening, right? you're not spending $5,600 a month on guilt-free spending. True or false? True. Okay. So, like, where's the money going? Seems like he's just going to savings.

Yeah, it's being hoarded. Oh, what was that word? Horded. Horded. Okay. Horted. I've been spending a lot more time trying to experiment on TikTok. And if you don't follow me, please go on over there and follow me right now.

I'm learning how to edit videos. Honestly, it took me, like, over an hour to figure out how to add a graphic to my own video. I sent it to my social media manager and I was like, hey, what's the feedback? What do you think I could do better? She literally sent a full page of notes on all the areas my video was not good and what I should do next. Now, I've got to say, I love the learning curve of learning a new skill. But sometimes you need to move fast by hiring an expert, like a video editor. That is why I love using Upwork. Recently, my team and I have hired a content editor to help with emails, a graphic designer for a new product, and a developer who's helped us update our website.

Posting a job on Upwork is easy. It's free to join. You can register, you can browse freelancer profiles, you can get help drafting a job post or even book a consultation. And from there, you connect with freelancers, you browse their work, and you can easily hire them to get started on projects right away. Upwork made the whole process easier and more affordable with industry low fees. You can find top talent across a ton of different industries, including IT, web development, design marketing, admin, support, all of it. So visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upw-w-rk.com. Upwork.com. My friend used to have a financial advisor who would

send a big, heavy coffee cake to her family every Christmas. How nice, she thought, they really care about me. Then one day she read my book and found out how much she was actually paying this advisor, the very advisor she barely spoke to, 1% AUM, which was thousands of dollars per year in her early 30s. Now, trust me, that coffee cake doesn't add up to nearly as much as she was paying in fees. That's why I tell you not to work with a financial advisor who charges a U.M or a percentage of your investment portfolio. That percentage compounds year after year and can often end up costing you tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, sometimes over a million dollars in fees alone.

A gift basket does not make up for those fees. A better way is a flat fee financial planner, like our partners at FASI. FASID charges a flat membership fee for financial planning. not a percentage of your portfolio. You get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan and actually keep it updated.

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they will add $300 to your brokerage account. Head to Facet.com slash Ramit to see which membership, core plus or complete, is right for you. Again, that's facet.com slash remit. I'm not a member of Facet, and I have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of similar outcome. What does that mean hoarded? It's being kept and nothing's happened with it.

As much as one can collect, they're keeping it. Oh, that's quite revealing. So is money and savings being hoarded? I don't think so. I think money and savings, there's a goal for that. Okay. Taylor says no. Hayden, what do you say?

Well, I think if we were saving all of the money, sure. But, I mean, I think you have like checking accounts, right, that have tens of thousands. of dollars. Not right now. No, I do. I put that there in order to then place it somewhere else. There is a goal for that. Gotcha. What's the difference between savings and hoarding? Or is there not a difference, Hayden? I think if she has a plan for said money, then that's fair. I don't buy, like, okay, she has $50,000 or something like that in a wedding fund. I don't buy that she plans to spend $50K on a wedding. Right? Go ahead. Hold on, Taylor. I want to hear what Hayden has to say.

Also, because we've talked about it before, she doesn't plan to spend $50,000 on a wedding. So in my head, it's like, why do you have all of that money if you don't plan to use it for that? Hayden, if she says she's not going to spend $50K on a wedding, but she has $50K in a wedding fund, why might she do that? I think with the emergency buffer being in like all of these accounts, like she has more in these accounts that she's actually wanting to use for these things. That's why I would call it hoarding and she would call it just being careful. And in your view, how much should she have for a wedding fund? Oh, I wouldn't want to spend $50,000 on a wedding. So I'm closer to like half of that, maybe.

So she should have 25K in a wedding fund. What should she do with the rest of the money? That $25,000, I mean, probably invest, right? Or put it somewhere else, have another goal. And out of curiosity, how much of that type of thinking do you do with your own money? I don't do any of that. I'm very opposite. it. Money comes in and it goes right out.

Taylor, did you have something you wanted to add? No, I was just like, you ate with that. You ate with that, sir. According to the conscious spending plan that you both submitted to me, Hayden, you have $1,070 in savings. Yeah, I've got another thousand in investments as well. And then when it comes to just like money on me, it's about another thousand. You have $1,000 on? You have $1,000 you right now? Between like cash and checking and yeah. Like where? Like is it in your pocket right now? Can you show me? No, it's in my bank account and I have some cash. It might be like, oh yeah, there it is. Wait, show me what's in there? We don't usually show cash on this show. Just show me what's

in there. There's probably, I think like $180. So first of all, this is interesting. Taylor is pulling out like a portfolio. Hold that up to the camera. Hold that up. Okay, what in the hell? So, oh, oh, hold on, hold on, slow down, slow down, go back. So this is like a cash. wallet. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. There's laminated plastic and they have money and it says gas and they literally have money. They're doing the envelope system. Okay, so that's gas. Let's go to the next one. They have one called bills. It's a bit of a vague description, but okay, what's next. Next, they have one called Sinking Fund. Well done. Looks like there's a $10, or there's nothing in there. Next up they have school. There's a $10 bill in there. Oh, and a $5.000.

Okay. Maybe there's more. I can't really tell. Moving along, savings has nothing in it. Okay. D.G. Knight. What's that? Date night. Oh, date night. Oh, date night. Okay. All right. Date night. That has zero in it. All right. Next. Therapy has $100 in it. Okay. And maybe more. I can't tell, but keep going. Real estate has zero. Okay. Roth IRA has nothing. Okay. And we're at the end. Wow. Okay. First of all, I got to say, I do love, I love, I love, the organization system, the envelope system is quite effective for people who are not making a lot of money and need to be extremely diligent. It's also good for people who have historically been irresponsible with their money because it is a very clear black and white strategy. When the money runs out, that's it. And to have to literally and figuratively lift it from another envelope

and put it in this envelope, you kind of realize like, oh, fuck, why am I withdrawing my retirement money to, you know, go to cheesecake factory? That doesn't quite make sense. Who came up with that system? Taylor did. Well, I think Taylor found it on TikTok and then presented it to me and was like, hey. Taylor didn't find that in my book. I also referenced that and I will teach you to be rich, but we'll leave that for another day. Okay, Taylor, on your application, you wrote, quote, I think we're hesitant to get engaged because of different money philosophies. Taylor, let's go to you. What are your philosophies around money? I feel like money is power. When you have, money, you're more likely to not only just do the things you want, but first of all, stay alive.

It's a safety thing to make sure that you're always taking care of, your family, your spouse, your children, whoever is always taken care of in hopes that, like, you never have the rug pulled under you. What do you say, Hayden? My philosophy with money is that it doesn't really have value. I know that's not true. I'm just kind of letting you know how my brain works. Like money is only here so that you can pay for things that do matter, like experiences, things like that. Okay, so when you say money doesn't have value, are you really saying I like to live for today and I don't really care about investing or saving for tomorrow? Yeah.

Taylor, what do you hear from Hayden? I hear that I don't value the things that money could provide. I don't see money as safety. I don't need safety. I'm worried about right now. and whatever happens later, whatever. I think she's right in all of that. I think I might go a little bit deeper than that.

I think that our philosophies come from our own personal traumas. And I think the way that we reconcile that is through therapy, self-reflection, practice, stuff like that. We are a couple and we're one, but it's much more individual, like I said, trauma that I think we both need to work out. Yeah. Do you hear the difference in how they talk about money? for Taylor money means safety, control, power. She sees money as a tool for stability and control. For Hayden, it's different.

He says money has, quote, no value. Those are his exact words. Hayden sees money as a ticket to fun and freedom. Now, the good news is you can actually have a healthy, happy relationship, even if both of you see money different. But you do have to find some kind of shared, meaningful vision. What really stands out to me also is when Hayden says Taylor hoards money. That word choice is revealing.

Hayden himself doesn't really know much about money, but when he sees Taylor handling it, he calls it hoarding. I think that Hayden is consciously or unconsciously demonizing Taylor's money management so that he doesn't have to take a look in the mirror at his own finances. And if you know somebody who's in a relationship where one person handles all the money and the other one avoids it, send them this episode. It might be the start of a conversation they've been avoiding for years. Hayden, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

It really wasn't discussed all that much. There was more of those, there's adult issues, and then there's things that kids need to worry about. So a lot of the time, I was kind of left in the dark about money. Were you growing up with two parents? four parents. I grew up in two different households. Ah, got it. My dad and my stepmom, again, they didn't really discuss money with me, but I know that was much more of a middle-class home than the other house was.

What was the other house if it's not middle-class? Higher middle class. Like, I went to private school from kindergarten to 12th grade. How much did that cost? Do you have a sense? Like, through those 12 years all together? Oh, per year. I think when I was younger, it was like three to $5,000 a year, and then high school, it was like 12 to 14 a year. You used the word trauma as it relates to money. And I wonder, if I'm overstepping, we can simply not talk about this, but I'm curious, is there something that affected your relationship with money that happened in your past? Yeah, I think for both of us, we could say that.

Okay. Tell me about yours first. When I was 15, I had a really good friend pass away. July 4, 2015 is when he died, and it was cancer, right? He was my age. So that was pretty tough. And then July 6th of 2016, so a year and two days later, my dad passed away cancer again. I have experienced more loss since 25 years than like maybe your average person would. So I'm definitely living for the moment. You know, why am I going to save up for money to spend when I'm, 45 when I'm going to die at 42, you know. I'm so sorry you lost your dad and your friend and that loss really weighs on you, especially coming days apart. Right. Yeah. I'm so sorry. When you say that after that happened, you were basically living for the moment. Can you help me understand that? Why did you make that conclusion? After all that happened, saving just sounded really stupid, honestly. Sorry. Why? Because saving for what? Right. My dad was a firefighter. He worked super hard and he had three kids and a wife. He was saving and then he just got cancer and died. You know? How old was your dad when he passed away?

42. 42. So that's why you said, I'm not even going to be around past 42. Right. My dad was like this big dude. He was a firefighter. Like he was a professional hero. Right. So growing up like this dude is invincible. When he had the cancer from his diagnosis, it was six months when he died. So him dying at 42, I don't, yeah, how am I going to make it past that? Right. What if you did? I think I probably will.

If I actually sit down and rationally think about it, there is no evidence to say that I'm going to die at 42 years old. His dad is still alive, you know? So can I ask you, financially speaking, what if you do? What if you're 43, 45? What if? Yeah, I would like to have thought at 43, 44, 45 that I made. he started saving for those years at 25 and started making plans as a young man so that at

42, 43, I have a family and we're all okay and everybody feels safe. The way you talk about it is almost like rationally, cerebrally, I know I should probably save because I'm probably going to live longer than 42. But deep down, that's not how I feel. I feel like I'm going to spend it now. It feels silly to say no to something fun. so that I can save for something in the future. Like that's how it feels for me.

It feels silly to not just say yes and go do it all. Yeah. Okay. I think you really help me understand some of where your philosophy on money comes from. Honestly, it would not have been obvious to me just from looking at the numbers. One of the reasons that I feel so grateful

I get a chance to ask people their story and give them the space to really share it. So I appreciate that. Taylor, what about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up? A lot. A lot. And not in a fun way.

So my parents, they were also really never together. They hang out one night. And my mom was like, oh, there's a baby here. They were never really friends. They just kind of co-parented. My dad kind of paid child support. sometimes when he could, I guess. My dad also had a past with addiction.

So there was a lot of time that he was in and out of jail, didn't really get to see me as much. He couldn't pass a drug test or wasn't paying child support. And then in that time, my mom was holding it down, just her for me and my brother. My mom had a hard time keeping a job because she is epileptic. So sometimes she would have seizures on the job and get fired. because of that, because it was kind of a liability thing. And so there were times that my mom didn't have a job and we were just figuring it out. I remember specifically a time in high school and it's kind of a he-he-haha joke with my mom now, but there was a time in high school that my mom had $11.23 in her bank account and we were to make it until whenever we were going to get paid again and there wasn't a lot in the house at the time. And so I always saved up

birthday money, report card money, anytime I wanted to do anything, but also if we ever got into a hard situation, I could help. I never had a job in high school because I focused a lot on extracurriculars because I knew if I was going to go to college, you had to be the best damn student you were going to be because it had to get paid for. So that's kind of why money is safety for me. It's power because I didn't have that really at all growing up. Yeah. Wow. Do you think you had to grow up as a kid before you were ready? Oh, yeah. For sure. Something I've talked to my therapist about is feeling like I have to parent my parents as a child. Yeah. You do any of that in this relationship? Damn, caught us. Yes. I always ask people how they learned about money

growing up because often we recreate the financial dynamics that we saw as kids. We just don't realize it. Let's take a look at Taylor. She grew up in a household, marked by instability, financial stress, health issues, even incarceration. Her parents were not reliable with money, so what did she do? She stepped up. As a child, she started saving not just for herself, but to help her mom to keep the household running. She became, in ways, the parent.

Now fast forward to adulthood. Taylor's the saver, the contributor. Her partner is unreliable with money, just like her parents. And Taylor feels safest when she's the one in contribution. control. It reinforces that belief she's been carrying since she was a kid. If I don't take care of it, no one else will. And then there's Hayden. When he was 16, he lost his dad. His dad was only 42 years old. That loss shaped how he sees everything. In fact, most of the guys that I know who lost their dads early have told me they expect to die at the same age. That belief that he's going to die

early shapes his view of money. It doesn't justify everything, but at least it helps us start to make sense of it. But then, I discovered something that broke the trust of their relationship. Right now, we're definitely in that mother's son dynamic in our relationship. I want that God. I agree. I want us to be equal, equitable partners, a team taking on everything. Okay, I love that vision. As partners, not parent-child dynamic. I love that. Now let's go back to where you are today. If you continue the way that you're both going today, where are you five, ten years from now? Where we are right now. Yeah. Same thing. Just bigger numbers. I think maybe we're in a better spot, but I think, again, Taylor has dictated how we got there. Yeah. Yeah. So who needs to make the

change out of the two of you? I mean, probably both, but who needs to primarily make the changes? I mean, I'd say me. That's what I would say. I think that I need to be more reliable, maybe do more the things with money that I say I'm going to do. And I think that'll make her feel better backing off. What if you don't? I think the mother-son dynamic will just continue until we part ways. Taylor, do you agree with that? Yeah, we've had a lot of discussions. And he doesn't really like to talk about this, but I have told him that if I don't think that things are changing, I don't think I can be with someone that I don't trust. And so I really don't want that for us. And so that's why I feel like we're trying to do everything we can to get on the same page. What's this trust thing? You mentioned it a

couple times and this thing about like bringing money together. Like what happened to this money? Is there something there with the trust? So I got into gambling when I was about 18 years old. Okay. What happened? I got into it really bad. Definitely became a habit and addiction to the point where I was just, again, and someone who doesn't value money, right? It's not a great addiction to have because I was just blowing all of it until I got that hit, that win, that big euphoric feeling. So when me and Taylor first moved in together and I had money from the house that I sold, I blew all of it and not a lot of time. How much time? Four or five months. Wow. How much money are we talking about? Like 35,000.

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It got to the point to where my money got low. I took out a personal loan at like a 20-something percent just to continue the lie with addiction. There's lies, gas fighting, all of the things. And eventually there was a point where my back was on the wall. There was no more keeping it a secret. in line about it. So when I came clean to Taylor or was forced to, I don't want to give myself credit like I, hey, babe, actually I've been lying for something. That's not really what happened.

What happened was there was no more room to move. And obviously, she was very hurt. Taylor, when did you realize something was wrong? Even from the beginning, as soon as he received the money from his house, I had doubts. He would go back to his hometown, blow a good amount of money, and I would be like, what is going on? He's like, well, I just need to have fun. I need to do this. I need to do that. So we had a lot of talks about that.

And then he had blown through everything. I didn't know yet. He had gotten the personal loan. And he was doing a Zoom meeting for his real estate. And he needed something from his email. And I said, don't worry. I'll find it for you. Keep going on your interview.

I'm going through his email to find what it is that he needed. And I find an email about the personal loan. And I'm like, hmm, this seems odd. So I get him what he needs. He gets off the interview and I'm like, hey, I found this thing in your email. Like, this seems kind of predatory. Is this something that you're doing? And he's like, no, no, no, not at all.

I was just seeing if I could qualify for this. In my head, I'm like, I feel like this is bullshit. And then later he comes clean to me that like in that moment, he went to work and was like screaming, crying, throwing up in the car because obviously I found out. Even though he had convinced me that it wasn't like that. And then maybe six or so months later is when him and I had a conversation. And I was like, is there something you need to tell me? You're telling me it took him six months to come clean about it?

After he had taken out the loan, yeah. I think in total it ended up being a year from when he moved in is when I really found out everything. What happened when you found out? What was it? I was devastated because I never wanted to feel like a man was just living off of me. And that's exactly what it ended up feeling like. because here I am paying for our whole life in hopes that you can save money, do your investments, pay for your real estate so that you can do everything you want to do.

Because he's telling me that's what he wants. Like, that's his dream. And so I'm like, okay, like, I'm in a place that I can absolutely pay for us while you're doing that. I mean, I did ask you to move down here with me. I asked you to give up a lot. So, you know, that's the least I can do. And then I find out he blew $40,000 and wasn't paying me, wasn't offering me a dime.

And so it felt so much like I was being taken advantage of. It felt like I was obviously not a priority. And then to keep up a lie for a year, knowing I was finding out little bits and pieces and I was just continuously getting lied to gas lit, that really hurt our relationship a lot. Where did you go from there? It seems like it would be really tough to recover from.

I think in a way we're still recovering from it. And I think that's why the financials, has gotten as serious as it is. These are questions I've asked myself, like, at what extent is it going to stop? At what point am I going to have to be like, I can't? And a lot of times I don't like to think about that because I don't want that to be the case. I want this to work so badly. I want for this to be reconciled so badly. And my hope is if I tell him, hey, at some point I'm going to leave if you don't fix it, that he's just going to fix it because he loves me and wants to be with me. And it hurts a lot when I say that and things don't change because then it tells me in my

brain, oh, he doesn't love you enough to change the things. And he knows that at some point you're going to get sick and tired and he's okay with that. We've had that conversation. And I feel very trapped with that. Why? I mean, I struggle with other things outside of just past trauma and stuff. I struggle with compulsion, obviously, ADHD, pretty heavy, anxiety. So there's a other barriers outside of just not wanting to give Taylor what she wants. Yeah. Right. You getting help for those things?

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. We have our own personal therapist plus a couple. Awesome. Yeah. That's really good. I'm also in GA now.

I have been for, I guess, like 14 months. I haven't gambled since. So I think it's discouraging. Sometimes it feels like some of my effort might be discounted, but it's really hard for me to think like that or ever feel sorry for myself based off the story you just got, which was 100% accurate. She didn't miss anything. When you took that personal loan out, how much was the loan for? $7,500. $7,500.

Who'd you take it from? Some, I don't even remember. Lending point. Oh, I remember. I remember. It was a big deal. I mean. What was the interest rate? Oh, 22, probably. How were you planning to pay it back? I guess I didn't really have much of a plan at the time. I think my plan was to stop gambling,

you know, but I didn't come clean to anyone about the struggles that I had, you know. How did it feel to keep that secret from Taylor? Oh my God. Took years off of my life, probably. It was terrible, overwhelmed with guilt to the point to where when she's asking me about money, I'm getting visibly upset with her. It's not with her at all. I'm getting upset with her because I know I'm going to have to lie to her when she asks. Do you still feel like you have to lie about money? No. I'm pretty transparent with my money. And that's part of my recovery too. I gave her full access to all of my accounts and stuff like that. When you were not telling her about the personal loan that you'd taken out?

What was holding you back from telling her? What were you afraid of? Oh, first of all, I was worried about not being able to gamble. And then I was also worried about if she knew all of this, I think she would leave. I want to pause here for a second. I really appreciate Hayden's honesty. Admitting that he lied to Taylor about money,

especially in front of her on this call, takes a lot of courage. But despite that honesty, he is still glossing over, something critical. He said, if she knew all of this, I think she would leave. But we should be honest. Taylor has already said she's thinking about leaving. Not hypothetically, she has said flat out, if things don't change, she's gone. That's not a distant risk. That is a current reality. Sometimes we're so worried about what might happen that we ignore what's actually happening in front of our eyes. To his credit, Hayden has taken some real steps.

He's gone to GA, Gambler's Anonymous. He started therapy. I respect that. It's not easy. But that pattern of broken trust is still there. So listen as I push them to get honest with themselves. Hayden, can I make a point about your situation right now? You mentioned back then, you held on to this lie for a long time.

You were worried that she would break up with you. But right now, Taylor is telling you in no uncertain terms that if things don't change, she might have to leave. At the same time, back then, you were worried about not being able to gamble. And right now, even just a few minutes ago, you said, well, I want to still have fun with my money. Do you see the similarities in what was happening back then

and what is happening right now? Sure. Yeah. I guess in both scenarios, she is not cool with how I'm using or spending my money. And in both scenarios, like if those things were to continue, she would leave. Have you said that, Taylor? Yeah, and he really doesn't like when I say that. To me, it feels like I'm setting a boundary. If this continues, if this behavior continues, I will need to

leave. Yeah. And I feel like sometimes the way that he hears it is like a threat or an attack. And so to him it feels not fair. But to me, I feel like staying when something like this is happening is not there. For me, this feels like the biggest problem in our relationship. Okay. Hey, And do you agree? Yes, with an asterisk. Tell me. It's not my biggest problem, right? It's Taylor's.

Oh, what? It's not, this is, money is not your biggest problem? In our relationship, like when it comes to what I would want to talk about with our couples therapists, no. Taylor is literally telling us this is the biggest problem to me.

If something is the biggest problem to one partner, it's the biggest problem to both. Sure. And the fact that your earnings have been cut, by more than half, the fact that you gambled and hit it away, the fact that you have not managed to save or invest much, even though your living expenses are totally covered, like, how's that not top three or top problem? I think about if I do try and I go really hard for the finances, and it still ends up not being good enough, and she still leaves. How am I going to feel about that

versus if I don't try at all and she leaves? Yeah, that's called self-handicapping. That's what kids do the day before they have a test in college, and they go, I'm just going to go out and get wasted, and then they get a bad grade, and they go, see, I told you, studying doesn't even work. It doesn't even make a difference. So I'm just going to keep going out. That's exactly the textbook definition of self-handicapping. That's exactly what you're doing. I'm not going to try because if I try and I try and what does it say about me. Can you actually answer the question? If you try and then Taylor actually leaves, what does it actually say about you? incompetent, not good enough, stupid, all the things. You're stuck in your own cycle, which is not helping you move forward. And meanwhile, you have a partner here who's saying, I need you in this. I need you to work on yourself because my expectations are that you come up to this level. Not necessarily earning some crazy income, but engaging with money. How does it feel when I say that out loud?

It all feels fine. My biggest fear, again, is to say no to a good time or no to, you know, having fun, having experiences. And if the answer is like, you can't, it's hard to sign up. It's hard to be like cool and okay with that. Yeah. Taylor? He has overcome so much, like being in GA every single week, not gambling. He's done that for a year. That is not easy. Like, that's, like, that's. That's really difficult. And for me to watch him do a lot of these really difficult things, but we can't seem to fix this money issue. It makes me feel like, oh, the problem is me. He doesn't prioritize me. That's why it's not important to him. And then I don't ever want to scare him and make him feel like I don't like recognize and

appreciate the things that he has changed because I do. And I know that some of his drawback is that he feels like the changes he does make, I just keep asking for more and more and more. I mean, I can do better on that part about being more grateful or appreciative when changes are made. At this point, I feel like I have been patient. I feel like I have tried to be there. I don't want to harp on the past, but like that gambling thing was awful for me. That hurt me. And I think I did a lot to try to rekindle things and try to fix things and want to continue to go from there. Like, that was really hard for me.

And so it's not that I don't appreciate the things that have changed. It just feels like it's not enough to make up for what I felt during that time. What strikes me is when you say it's not enough. I think that when something happens in a relationship early on that can be traumatic, it's really easy to live there for a long time. Those things have lasting effects. They've had it on both of you and on your relationship. When you say it's not enough, that connects with me because I think your expectations are higher than what Hayden is delivering in terms of effort, engagement with money, that kind of thing.

I think it would be difficult for me to hear it's not enough to make up for what happened in the past. The past happened. From what I hear Hayden, you're doing a really good job of being involved in GA, engaging with multiple therapists. Like, that is commendable. It's really hard. It's amazing. I do think that probably creating a vision of where you both want to go and actually setting your boundaries.

Here's what this looks like. Here's what I need. And I hope that you can deliver that. I hope that you're the person for me. But if not, these are my boundaries. That is quite different than saying it's not enough to make up for what happened in the past. But there's so many layers here. What would it take to feel like Hayden has skin in the game?

beyond the $100 a month? Like what things would I would need to see from him? Yeah. A plan, a solid plan that he's following, that is reoccurring, that's consistent, because it's not that I need more money from him.

I don't. I need it to look like this is important to him, that it is a priority, that he has created a system, that he's following it, that it's consistent. That's what I need. Hayden, what do you hear Taylor saying right now? Yeah, I think what I hear Taylor say, and I've known this,

it's not at all about how much money I make. It's absolutely like what I do with it and how I manage it. Whatever that X dollar amount is, it doesn't really matter to her. But she needs to feel okay with us, you know, getting married and merging that money to, because now it's ours. Okay, so how would she know that you are taking her request seriously? I think above anything else, consistency.

I think that I've tried a whole bunch of stuff, right? Even that notebook that you saw, that it was her idea to do. I've tried that, but I haven't been as consistent as I could be. How much of your relationship with money and what you do in your relationship is just to get Taylor off your back

so she stops asking you questions? Most of it. Yeah. And I think that's the problem, too, Hold on. Before you go into explaining, just sit with that for a second. What did you just say to me? Most of the things that I do with money is just to get Taylor off my back. So what do you guys want to do?

I want to fix the holes. I would like to prevent future holes if we could. I know that things aren't going to be perfect and we're still going to have small spats, but I want so badly, again, for us to be able to even be close to the same page, the same book. I want to make this work. do. Okay. Hayden, what do you want to do? I want to marry Taylor. So whatever that takes, whatever I've got to do to do that, I think that's the frustrating part, right? Whatever it is. I'm not, okay, you want to do it so that she agrees to get engaged? Fine. Right. That's the only reason? Is there anything for you? Not really. Okay. This really stopped me cold. When I asked

Hayden why he wants to change, his answer was, I want Taylor to marry me. I think he means it, but it's not enough. When you're trying to make a major change with money, you can brute force it for a while. You can check your account every day. You can promise to appreciate your partner every morning. You can try harder to cut back on overspending. But real change, deep, lasting change requires something way more than trying harder. You need a big, vivid, powerful reason that helps keep you on track.

when it gets hard. Maybe it's, I'm tired of not being able to buy my kids a birthday gift every year. Or I'm not going to go to the grocery store anymore and wonder if there's money in my account at the checkout lane. Or I want to go to my high school reunion with my head held high. And sometimes even those powerful reasons aren't enough. Think about it. People who are in life or death medical conditions, even they often do not take their prescribed medication. That is how hard it is to change. Knowing that is why I push people so hard to get specific. Because these generalities, like I need to try harder, they don't work.

They don't change behavior. After a week or two, you just go right back to what you were doing. I want to hear specific, vivid reasons like this. I want my wife to smile when I walk in the door because I know I have gotten everything I need to do done with my finances. That's specific. It's emotional. It's real.

Or better yet, I want to be proud of myself. I know others have taken control of their money, so I know I can too. This is what I'm trying to get Hayden to find, his real reason. And until he finds that, it's just for someone else. And it's hard to make that stick. Deep down Taylor knows this. You'll hear her response in just a second. I've been in business for over 20 years,

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I don't want him to just do that because he wants to marry me because that's not going to hold that forever. I don't want to be the only reason that you make good decisions. I want you to want to do this for you and our family and not just me. Well, I mean, yes, our family as well. I guess when I'm thinking about for me is I want to be married with Taylor and have a family. That's how I'm doing it for me, I guess. Hayden, Hayden, you are

trying to avoid looking inside and realizing the way that you need to change your relationship with money and you're disguising it, you're camouflaging it by trying to please Taylor. Oh, if I just do this thing for Taylor, then she will get married to me. But what she really wants is for you to improve yourself and your own relationship with money. She wants you to improve it whether you're together or not. I think my goal is similar to Taylor's, fix the holes and prevent future ones. I think if I'm being honest, the way that I've kind of been going about it and the conversations that we have, I can see why for her, it's like the way that you want to fix these holes and

prevent future ones is by me lowering my standards. What was the thing about lowering standards? Who needs to lower them? Taylor. What is happening? Hold on. Am I hearing this wrong? No, I think you are hearing it wrong.

Okay, okay, okay, let me clarify. I think everybody's hearing it wrong. Okay, okay, let's take a second to clarify because I want to make sure I'm getting this right. Yeah. So Taylor said, I want to fix this. I want to fix the holes. And then Hayden, you said, I also want to fix the holes. I think the way to do that is.

And then what was the thing about lowering standards? Yeah, no, that's where you heard it wrong. I think that I want to fix the holes and prevent future ones. And I feel like with me and her having all of these conversations, something that I'm kind of seeing and something that she's also told me is that my way of going about that is having her lower her standards. I'm not saying that that's what should happen or that I want to do. But that has been, you know, we've been together almost four years now. And that's kind of what I've presented is like, you know, all right, I don't treat money how you want me to. Can you get over it basically?

Wow. That's pretty insightful. Yeah. So she first starts off like, you know, I really want us to be partners. I really want us to be engaged in this, talking about all the time. Okay, fine. Like, we're not going to do that. Okay, fine.

Like, let me design this little cash wallet for you. I just want you to use that. Oh, you're not even going to use a cash wallet. Okay, I just want you to contribute $100 a month. Can you do that? Gosh, it's like a downward spiral. I actually prefer an upward spiral. We're going to get better together.

We're going to push each other. our vision of our rich life is going to get bigger and bigger and richer and more expansive. Now that's not for everybody. That's my philosophy. I knew that when I was dating, one of the core values I want to look for is somebody's interested in self-development. They have to be willing to improve themselves. Could be through fitness, dance, money, whatever, because that's a core value of mine. I'm going to be wanting to improve myself is she.

But if it's like a downward spiral, that's quite a different relationship. Taylor, what's going on right now? I'm feeling very heard. I'm feeling very seen because I feel like I've been so resistant to I'm not going to change my standards. But, like, as you've talked, I feel like I kind of have been giving into that, again, to make the relationship work. And it's like, I'm kind of looking at myself, like, girl, stand up. Go on. Stand up and what?

Like, either really, I don't know how I'm going to make him, but like, make him figure it out or leave. Like, stop, stop with the, I'm trying to. to fix it. I'm trying to fix it. It only works if we both want to fix it and we both are doing something to fix it. So it makes me feel like I'm just waiting around until eventually I just get upset enough that I'm like, I'm done. And I don't want that either because what I do want is if we are going to break up, I would at least like it to be no hostility amicable. Like, Hayden? What do you hear? What do you hear Taylor saying? What I hear her saying is that She's already lowered her standards, and she's done that by really taking control.

I think in an ideal world for her, I'd have it figured out just as much as she does. Yeah. You go in? I also think that we both got to want to fix it, but I think when it comes to me individually, I really have to be the one carrying most of that weight. And I think a struggle that I'm going to have is, I don't know what I'm doing, so I'm going to slip, I'm going to fail at some things. Like there's going to be times where I miss the mark.

And I think, yeah. It's interesting, Hayden, you've done this now several times where we talk about, you know, something to change. And your reaction is always to enumerate all the potential problems. A challenge we're going to face. Here's the problem. Here's the problem I've had. Here's the problem that I have right now or she has. The worst case.

What about talking about the best case? Do you ever think about that? No. No, I guess not. Yeah. It's quite interesting. It's a very different vision of how the world works. It's just my general philosophy on life is like,

we're going to make this good. So let's talk about what happens in the best case. I think in the best case, just get my shit together. I think that's really it. I get my shit together. I grow up. Okay, let's do it right now. Like literally right now in the next three minutes.

You want to do it? Sure. All right. I'm going to put your CSP up on screen. You tell me what you want to do with it. Okay. Taylor makes about seven times more than I do. So if our rent is $2,015, I would like to contribute $288 a month to that. Ideally, that's what I would like to do. Great. You want to contribute more

to housing? I like that. What else? The sinking fund for the vacations, I think we can change that to $400. Okay. So what really used to happen, at least according to the CSP, is you were spending over $400 more per month than you made. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah, I remember seeing that on me. So that can't happen. Right. Like, how can you be spending more than you make when your partner is paying your rent? It just doesn't make any sense. I'm spending about what I make. That's what I would say. Okay, so what's the problem here? It's the amount of money that's available. That's correct. Okay. You don't make enough money. Right now you make about $12 an hour. Right. So what do you want to do? I'm working a lot. I'm working.

my part-time job and I'm also doing the real estate a lot. What I can do, I feel like, is what I'm doing right now, which is being engaged in both jobs. So the second job that I have with the real estate, that was my only job last year. So me picking up the bartending is that second job. So I should be making more money. Okay. Taylor, is that enough for you? The planning is what I don't care of what he does and what the jobs are. I just want to make sure that we have time for our relationship and for there to be some kind of conscious spending plan, if you will. You've talked about getting married in the next couple of years.

What does that vision look like? Hayden? I think that it looks very secure, without doubt, full of confidence and love. Yeah, I like that. What about for you, Taylor? Yeah, I think that's perfect, feeling good about our relationship, confident about our relationship, being able to communicate and it being positive and just trust. Taylor, what do you think it would take for you to feel comfortable getting engaged?

I think it would take consistent, what I would call responsible behavior with money. Like having a plan, sticking to the plan, having to make tough decisions and being able to to do that. What do you need from Hayden specifically to trust him with money? I need for him to be spending less than he makes. I need him to be saving and investing for the future and thinking about our future and that being a priority financially. I'm not hearing anything new. She's pretty consistent with her message on what she needs. Okay. And do you have any responses to those things that she wants? For me, I have to keep my happiness and check too, you know. I feel like that's what I've been worried about is how much am I willing to give up? What are you giving up? Well, bad habits,

but also, like, you know, some freedom. You both said you want to get married. You both said it's important to you. To me right now, it doesn't seem like you're moving towards that. it seems like you are circling and there's elements of the past and there's just a lot of spinning and talking more about problems than solutions. We can't solve everything here today, but we could try to take a first step. What would that first step be if you were really specific about what each of you is willing to commit to doing? Taylor? I will commit to being more appreciative of the changes that are happening. I can commit to trying to keep my own levels of worry and stress down so that I'm not panicking as much

and trying my best to focus more on the future ahead and not so much about him making up for the past. Okay. How about you, Hayden? I think what I can commit to is just taking it more serious, trying to find find ways to go and make more money. And then it being consistent thought on my mind and, you know, setting goals, making plans and trying to better my financial situation. Aiden, do you want to change? Yeah, of course. I feel kind of overwhelmed since I've met Taylor

how much I've had to change. There's been a lot of self-improvement and change that she's demanded from me. This is just something else. And how do you feel about that? I mean, you know, the feeling of not feeling good enough and stuff creeps in, obviously, like if I'm having to change all of these things. But I think that the things that I have changed being with Taylor have just made my life easier. And it's made me a better person. So with that evidence, I guess why would this be any different? Something we've had to talk about is that the things that I've asked for him to change are not inherent parts of who he is. and I think it's important for him to realize that.

Maybe doing some things that are irresponsible with money is not who you are. It's a habit that you have. Just because I've asked for you to change that, does it mean that you are bad? It means that there are some things that you do that might not be compatible with the goals that we have together. And so some things do need to change. That does not mean you are bad or you inherently are not good enough or that those are things that are a part of your identity. Thanks for saying that.

Yeah. Hayden, how do you feel now versus when we started this conversation? I mean, I guess there's like a sense of enlightenment. I see where we stand right now. Where is that? I mean, the way it's coming across is it's make-a-break time. Either I do it or I don't. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. do you have overall advice on specific things that we can do just to begin this kind of steps? I do. I do have specific advice. You know, this is the first time either of you have asked me. And I typically am not very directive, but you asked, so I will be. I think that you'll have to recalibrate your relationship dynamics. And that is hard. like consciously and unconsciously we don't like change and the question is do we have a powerful enough vision to carry us through those difficult times you obviously want to be together that's clear my specific suggestion would be that Hayden sets up a book club with money for couples

this book that he leads the reading of that book and that each week the two of you go through two or three chapters, and he's the one driving it, setting up the meetings, reading it ahead of time, coming up with discussion questions, driving that. And Taylor, you're there. You're like, I'll answer anything. I'll participate. But I'm not going to lead it. I've done that for too long. I want to see you do it. I think that will be quite revealing because some people are ready to be partners and others are not. And I think, Hayden, if it's important to you, ultimately, bottom line, you'll do it. You'll find a way to do it. So that's the first thing I would do. to open up conversations about what are the two of you want? Like, how are you actually spending

money today? Where should you change it? Probably income needs to change. That just needs to happen. And then that money needs to be reallocated correctly. And to me, getting the habits right now when you two are not married, don't have children, like that tells me so much. It tells me if you can do it now, you can probably do it even better as your family grows, as your income grows, as your complexity grows. But if you can't get it done right now, it's going to be really hard to change later. And you would pretty quickly know how it's going, because you'll get through the book and you'll have a much more clarity on what to do, or you won't get through the book. And that will be quite telling. That would be what I would do step by step. Hayden, do you have any questions

that I can answer for you? I don't know if you're able to answer it, but I would really like some guidance on how I can change my mindset because I don't want the mindset that I currently have, right? That's a big reason why we're like here. But it's hard to get out of your own head. Okay, you tell me. I tell you what. How could you do it? I've got to get really good telling myself no, telling others no. I guess I want to be there for me, you know? What does that mean? Like I want to do good for me, not just for Taylor. Okay. I love that. I love that. Great question.

I would do a couple of things. Number one, I would find a book and or a program that speaks to you. Read it. Consume it. Listen to it. First, you want to surround yourself with something that inspires you. Two, I would start to take a leadership role in something that you have been sitting in the back seat on. That's why I recommended you leading the conversations about money for couples.

For too long, you've been passive. You let Taylor lead everything. And she's basically telling you, I'm sick. of it. And if I have to keep doing it, I'm out of here. That's what she's telling you. So the best way to solve that is to actually step up and take a leadership role. Lead. And tell Taylor, you set the standards. You say, listen, here's where I think I'm going to do a great job. Here's where I think I might not live up to my own standards, but I'm going to ask you to give me a little bit of grace. And you tell her exactly how many weeks, because you've looked at the book, you've looked at the

table of contents, and you made a plan. It's in Google Calendar. The invites are already sent. basically you're not waiting for her to save the day because she's not going to that's what i would do what you're noticing to change your mindset is often starting from the outside in start by setting those meetings start by leading and start by creating a vision for yourself what is the kind of man i want to be what are the words that that man embodies it's probably not passive it's probably not waiting around start with those words start with learning surrounding yourself with some positive mindsets and then most importantly start with taking action. Act first, the mindsets will often follow.

Ultimately, if the two of you want to get married and you want to make changes, you can't. All right? All right. I appreciate you both. I'm wishing you both the best. If you are struggling with how to even start a conversation like this with your partner,

I've got a great free resource for you. It's called How to Talk to Your Partner about money. It includes scripts to help you navigate the tough stuff without starting a fight. You can find it at IWT.com slash partner. I want to thank Taylor and Hayden for joining me and having some really difficult conversations today. And I want the best for them.

I have to admit that I'm not confident that Hayden will make the vast changes necessary to create a shared vision of money. But I hope I'm wrong. I want to talk about something that I learned the hard way. Early in my career, I thought that success meant taking somebody who had a bunch of debt, showing them my fancy IWT ways, and then they come out of debt with a big old savings account. I thought if I didn't engineer that transformation, I was a failure.

But after years of doing this, after a book and a Netflix show and all these conversations, I realized I can't force anybody to change. Some people are not ready, and that's okay. And some people are. That's also great. sometimes people don't need fixing. Sometimes they just need to tell their story. But when somebody is ready and when they have a clear reason,

those changes can be fast and they can be deep and they can last. And that's why I'm still here with Hayden. Because I think for the first time, I hope he might actually be ready. Now let's check out their followers. I think that I have to be better about letting Hayden take leadership with certain things, like him being an active participant, because I think Rameet was absolutely right when he said,

here Taylor comes just to save the day, and I've got to make sure that I'm not doing that, and I'm giving him the opportunity. As soon as we got off the meeting, he was doing a pretty good job of, like, going up our numbers, and then coming to me with what he thought he could do, and he's been bringing them up to me every so often rather than me bringing it up to him.

So he's definitely been taking it seriously, like taking that leadership role and being an active participant when it comes to finances. I have two big takeaways, and that's to drop the excuses and take immediate action. What I've done so far is I've restructured the conscious spending plan. I've restructured my envelope book, and I basically dissected all of my fixed cost and narrowed them down. There was a lot of fluff in things that I had to pay for. So I figured out what I really needed to have paid every month.

Those are my fixed cost. So I have formulated a plan to be debt-free by August or sooner, dropping my fixed costs from 76% to 56%.