Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 26. “How do we create our Rich Life when we don’t trust and respect each other?”

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

My conversation with Mira and Dan was supposed to be about tax returns. He hasn't filed his yet, and it's making Mira feel insecure, anxious, and unsafe. Dan wants her to relax and trust him for once!  I knew something else was amiss here, but I was shocked to see how fast the conversation took a turn.  Connect with Ramit Website Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube Linkedin If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years.

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amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel, plus Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join the program right now. I'm scared. I don't trust you. Dan, do you agree? with that? 100%. From the very beginning,

there was a lot of judgment and criticism saying things like you don't work, you don't do anything, like things like that. In the meantime, throughout our whole relationship, I've been making more money than her. I was so angry.

I was like, this is a white guy who's like 50. He said he wanted a family. Like, I'm, here with him, and he still doesn't seem to have a plan to make that family happen. He's very lucky that I'm with him right now. I just wish that she would say, like, babe, I love you and I accept you the way you are, and you don't have to prove anything to me. How do you create a life together if your partner doesn't trust you?

And what do you do if one partner is anxious about money? and the other retreats whenever the topic is brought up. Dan and Mira have been together for five years. She's 36, he's 43. And for the last three years, they've been living together, but they still keep their finances separate. Now, I sat down with Dan and Mira to initially discuss something that seems pretty mundane.

Dan had applied for an extension to his taxes this year, and Mira is uncomfortable that he's still hasn't done it. But here's the pattern in today's conversation. It goes a lot deeper than a tax return. She feels anxious about money. He feels judged. She says she wants clarity.

He says, we've already talked about this. You're going to hear that Mira's history of questioning Dan started way, way back on their first date. You see, when they met, she couldn't understand how, he was able to make a living from DJing instead of, as she put it, having a real job. Mira and Dan are from different cultural backgrounds. And as you listen today, I think you're going to be able to spot some of those cultural differences. This conversation was a tough one because there's so much resentment and judgment and damage. In fact, we quickly veered away from money.

But I tried to bring it back. And I think the breakthroughs that happened to are worth it. So if you or your partner sees money differently than the other, I think you're going to be able to pick up some true lessons today. I'm Rameit Seiti, and this is I Will Teach You to be rich. He hasn't filed his taxes for 2020 yet. And Dan is extremely relaxed about this because there's an extension deadline that he tells me he's still within. But this sets off all sorts of arm bells with me. I feel like he's late on filing his taxes and it's unacceptable to me. It worries me. It makes me worry that I, even though I think Dan is very responsible, I worry that I'm with a partner who's not responsible in ways that really matter to me. So by him file an extension on his taxes,

it's making you worry that he's not responsible about his finances. Okay. Dan, what's your take on that extension? Well, I do feel like it's a bad habit to lean on the extension, but it's something that I've definitely done historically. You know, the IRS most likely owes me money, which means that taking the extension, it's only like making me get my refund less soon.

so there's no danger involved. The extension is like a fully legal thing and part of the IRS system. And so I'm not stressed out about it. Mira's father is an accountant who would probably never file anything late. And in addition to culture, she just finds it crazy that I am doing this.

Dan is a DJ. So for me, like, even though it feels like he's even though that's his work when he's prioritizes going out later night that makes me think that he's just spending time on socializing

when he could be spending that time on filing his taxes. I usually respond you know saying I haven't I'm still working on it but I'm still you know within the filing period of my extension and I'll get it done before the deadline

and don't worry. That's not what you say. Okay. What do I say? It's none of your business. What? Do that effect. I'm not telling you. I don't want to tell you. It stresses me out when you ask me. I feel like walled out, basically, from ever asking you anything relating to planning and future sort of vision. Okay. It's true that when Mira asks me about planning in general that can definitely bring up some resistance or anxiety, you know, or sometimes I just feel like she's very critical of me. So I feel like it's an extension of the criticism and she's just sort of meddling or looking for, you know, some ammunition

for her criticism, which then I'm reacting to that, which maybe is not fair. This point about nagging is a really interesting one. If you've ever been in a relationship where one of you is seen as the nag or the pursuer, the person who's always trying to get the other to do the dishes or file their taxes, you know how frustrating it can be. Not just for you, for your partner as well. And I want to share an example of something to show you how this plays out. because usually when there's a pursuer and a pursued, how do you handle it?

Think about it. If somebody's nagging the other person to do the dishes, what do you do? You try to be nice to your partner. They don't do it. You try not to bring it up. They still don't do it. You create a chore chart. They still don't do it.

And then you get more and more frustrated and you start asking them and pursuing them and nagging them. And what's their response? I told you if you stopped nagging me, maybe I would do it. All right, you've set yourself up in a bad dynamic. I recently went on a podcast where the host is a huge believer in crypto, an evangelist. Now, I can tell you right now, this set up a very bad dynamic. Because the person didn't just say, oh, wow, Ramit, you probably know about personal finance.

I can understand that you've chosen low-cost, long-term index funds for your portfolio. No, what did they say? Try to guess. They said, oh my God, you Luddite, how do you not realize that this is the financial future? Well, soon, your eyes are going to be open and you're going to get in at the price you deserve, blah, blah, blah. Now, I could simply look at this person and say, wow, that was pretty aggressive. but really the problem is the dynamic. The dynamic where one person truly deeply believes in something

and the other person just doesn't. When you have something like that, you have an evangelist and someone who just doesn't believe it, the same thing, you are going to have tension. If it wasn't this person, it would have been another person. So with Dan and Mira, when you have the pursuer, the person who's nagging the other. Most couples will spend their entire lives

just playing out the pursuer-pursuey relationship. They'll pursue harder, then the other person will retreat, and they'll continue doing it into this downward spiral of doom. What I want to do in this conversation is try to zoom up, zoom out, let them see the dynamic that's happening and see if we can unpack the deeper issues here. This has come up from almost from like the very beginning, of our relationship.

Mira was asking me like, you know, kind of like, tell me all about your finances. In the beginning, it really always felt like there was an ultimatum. It was kind of like, you better have a good plan or I'm out of here. You know, she was waiting to feel that there was security, that there was financial security. And I was kind of the opposite. From the very beginning, there was a lot of judgment and criticism that Miro

was lobbying at me, kind of like telling me, saying things like, you know, you don't work, you don't do anything, like things like that, which, you know, in the meantime, throughout our whole relationship, I've been making more money than her. I've been paying for things. I've been taking care of her in various ways. So that, to me, is very painful and very hard to hear. And also, like, touches on my own insecurities in a way that's uncomfortable or it's just like a sore spot. It makes me sad because my goal here is to have us communicate. And I absolutely recognize what he's saying, which is I was very anxious in the beginning because culturally, I don't know.

Like for me, a DJ being a DJ, I have no conception of what a job. looks like that. Like I just came with all these assumptions. I was like, this is not a real job. What do you mean? How do you make your money? Like he would keep telling me how he made his money.

And I was like, but how do you make your money? I mean, that first day that we got together, you know, the morning after I was like, so would you have like a trust fund? I mean, that's rude. You know, I should not have asked that then.

But I was, if I cut away all of that, I was coming from a place of anxiety and trying to understand your kind of who you were. I didn't understand. I walked into this beautiful home that you lived in, but I had no model for how to process it. I was angry. Tell him. I was so angry.

I was like, this is a white guy who is like 50 or almost 50. He said he wanted a family and he didn't fucking make a plan to make that family happen. Like I'm here with him And he still doesn't seem to have a plan To make that family happen And now he wants a family with me I'm sorry I want to say I'm sorry

I feel bad I was a jerk I remember the first time I I think it was the first time I cooked for her And I Cooking is very important to me I have a lot of confidence In my cooking ability

And I think the first the first time I cooked for her, like, right away, there were, like, critiques. And I was like, I was like, yo, this is not cool. Like, why are, you know, and she was like, oh, well, you know, we're in my family. My father, you know, it's just like a kind of a constructive thing. Like, it's just a way of showing that you're comfortable and you, you know, we just always, like, we're just, you know, my father would always critique my mother's cooking. And I was kind of like, well, that doesn't sound great.

No, my mother would critique my father's. If he would cook, he'd be like, read it. It'd be on the table. You'd be like, give me a one to ten. And then I was like, well, that might be fine for your parents. But like, we're just, we just started dating. But that's fun for me, you know? Notice the difference.

Notice the difference here, Dan. The way that you responded to mirror critiquing your cooking, which you are so confident about. I mean, I just love the change your swag. Yo, that's not what we do in this house. Okay, that might be fine for you, but we don't do that here. Just confident. You knew your food was good.

Now, contrast that with how you responded to the career vision stuff. How did you respond to that? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely different. How did you respond to it? I think there were a lot of times when she was asking me, you know, kind of like, I want to know what your plan is. But inside, I also felt kind of like, who the hell do you think you are? Like, you just met me. You don't know shit about me.

Like, and you're coming in here, like, with your set of expectations and your demands and patiques and whatever. Like, back off. Why didn't you say the same thing to her as you said about the cooking? There's a reason. Yeah, because, yeah, because definitely. It also spoke to my own insecurities more so than the cooking. This is one huge reason why money is so difficult to talk about.

Because most of us don't know much about it. We're insecure about our financial knowledge deep down. Deep down, we're insecure about our financial knowledge. So we feel these things. We feel anxious or guilty. We feel like we need to ask the other person, why did you spend money on that thing? But we don't really have the competence around basic financial terms. We don't know what our ratios should be for how much we should be spending on our mortgage.

We don't know if we can afford to buy X or what percentage we should be putting in Y. If you don't have that basic competence, then the way you relate to money with your partner it's going to suck. All you're going to do is do these whack-a-mole arguments where you say, why did you do that? How could you do that? We should do this. I can't believe that you did that.

But there's no vision. There's no, hey, this is our North Star. These are the numbers we should be talking about. And you can hear that in this conversation. These questions about filing your tax return, it's not about the tax return. But you can hear Dan also not answering Mira's questions because he's insecure about his financial knowledge.

He's not insecure about his cooking. You heard his answer in that. I love the way he responded, super confident. But when it comes to money, his answers are completely different. There's a pretty cool TikTok trend going around right now that I really love. It's called admin nights. Basically, you get your friends together, you get some snacks, maybe some drinks, and you do all the infrastructure stuff in life that most of us skip over.

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Like, Dan has strained me to not sit down and take a bite and say something critical in the first goal. Like I will now, I mean, it's still in the process. of being, like I need to say something positive or not need to say something positive or just like tune into the thing that I feel that is positive about the thing that I'm experiencing and express that. Yeah. And ask for permission before I can express anything critical or like, you know, I think, yeah, I need to ask for permission, basically.

Mm-hmm. Maybe sometimes you don't even need to be critical. Yeah. Yeah, so hard. Radical idea. you mentioned twice that it's your culture and your family. Okay. And I respect that.

You were raised in a different culture. I know what that was like, although I wasn't raised in India. And I know what it's like to be raised by an Indian family. And all of those are true. We cannot separate those from you. They are a part of you. But you also have to take responsibility for yourself.

This is more of a Western approach, but it is real in this culture, right? Which is to say it just won't fly. It won't work if you're trying to achieve your goal of being safe, if you are using behaviors and then when you recognize, this might not be good, the first thing you say is, it's my family, it's my culture. What would be a better approach? To be in the moment and to play back what the person says to me. Yeah.

Mira is taking something very real, her family upbringing, and she's extending it so that it not just explains her views, but it justifies them. Okay, there's a big difference. Explaining her views can help Dan understand why does she see money this way? Why does she have certain expectations? That can explain it.

justifying it says my beliefs are right. Why? Because it's my family that taught me that. Oh, and if I go too far, it's not my fault. It's my family. It's my upbringing that taught me that. That's justifying. So explaining is good. Explaining is great. We all have different views on money because of how we were raised. Let's seek to understand that. But when you extend that to justifying it, then suddenly you've created this closed system where anything you do is right. Why? Because that's what I learned in my family upbringing. And that is causing a lot of tension here. What's fascinating is that they both want the same thing in this relationship. Safety and security. Mirro wants financial safety. She wants to know that she's safe, right? That there's a plan. Dan wants to know

that he's emotionally safe, that she wants him, that she accepts him. So they have a lot of commonality in what they want in this relationship. Let's see if they can realize it. What do you want to feel? Success? I don't know. Dan, what is she looking for? She wants to feel safe?

Yeah. She wants safety. She wants security. A plan is a plan. A plan is a piece of paper. It doesn't mean anything. but what it represents or what somebody putting their taxes in on time represents is what, Mira?

Safety. Yeah, absolutely. You know, Rameen, I wake up in like in the morning with like a sick feeling in my tummy. It was anxiety thinking that I have not filled out this piece of paper. Something has come from me. I'm going to be thrown out of the country. Do you think that is a healthy feeling? Absolutely not.

The questions that you asked on day one. and the questions you're asking five years later are still the same questions. What are those questions really saying when you ask, what's your plan for the day? What are you really communicating to him? I'm scared. I don't trust you.

Yes, bingo. Dan, do you agree with that? Yes, 100%. She never came out and said that. That's why I don't like hearing. That's why I don't like the question every time. Exactly. Because it's a loaded question.

not just, hey, babe, what's your day? It's, hey, babe, prove to me that you're doing something worthwhile with your time so that I feel good about you. That's right. Prove to me that you are worth me being in this relationship. And that's not a good way to feel, especially every morning. Dan, we heard the word that Mira is looking for, safety or security. What are you looking for? just to be accepted and love for who I am without what feels like a lot of conditions. But my question is, I'm not interested in your question right now. He just said something really important. How do you want to respond to your partner who just said that?

I hear that you want to feel accepted and loved for who you are. Can you do it? I have to work on it. Do you think you can do it? Honest answer, it's a very difficult question I'm asking. It's a question. I ask myself a lot. I think the truth of the answer is, if we can talk about our dreams,

actually it will be maybe that. I don't even know. I don't know. But right now it's good. I'm going with it. You know? You know, I don't know is a honest answer. My question to you is, do you think you can accept him?

It's okay to say, I don't know. Yeah, I do. Dan? On one level, it's not surprising to hear Mirr say that because obviously that's what her behavior has been expressing her behavior and her communication directly. But at the same time, it's kind of like, damn. Like, it's kind of, yeah, I mean, it's hard to hear it so directly.

You guys are very courageous for talking. about this as directly as you are. You know, it would be very easy to dance around this for the next 25 years. We probably all know people who have done that. It's not easy to have these conversations about acceptance and safety. I mean, it's very, very vulnerable.

What are you going to say, Dan? Amira said something about, you know, the consequences seem very gentle or subtle or whatever right now, you know, things are good now, so she's going with it. And things are good in certain ways, but there are certain ways in which the consequences are not subtle. They are quite strong. Like what? I mean, I don't know how to draw a direct connection from one thing to the other, but like, we don't, like, we are very affectionate and loving,

but we hardly have sex. And I think, I think that's definitely a sign of something that's not very subtle, you know? And if we're talking about, you know, trust and safety and acceptance, like, I mean, sex and intimacy is, a place of, you know, I mean, potentially at least, a place of vulnerability.

And when I don't feel, yeah, I can't make the direct connection. It's not like, you know, when I think about sex, I'm thinking about what Mira says to me about money. I'm not. But, you know, we fight a lot. The tables have turned in a way. Like she is, despite what she says about her, you know, struggles with it, with us and whether she can accept me, I feel like she's in a period of being much more open to me and to her feelings about me right now than I am. She's, she just is just very sweetly, not all the time, obviously not when we fight, but I just feel.

that she's more connected to her, like, feeling of being in love with me. And I feel like that at least temporarily, I feel less that way than I used to. And I'm trusting that it's still there, you know? And, like, I feel like we have a good thing in so many ways. But, yeah, it's taken a toll on me. that I don't feel is subtle or, you know, inconsequential. And I hear this, I feel like that is going to, like, ask me to leave any more. And, like, just ask me to leave.

I feel delusional. Why? Of course, I know that we've not been intimate with each other. I think that's a problem. And I know it's connected to him feeling safe with me. you know like i know that that's why it is and i'm just trying to through like kindness and love like bring him to me but nothing seems to work

and i just think that that will just either that i mean that will just lead to just not working you know i don't even know why that is with me actually in this point because sometimes the things he says about the way it is to be with me or like, I feel like a terrible person. I feel like a bad star that I'm just not the right person for him or something

and he's just going to like wake up and tell me that tomorrow. It is amazing how much money shapes our lives. Yes, there are the obvious things like how much we can afford for a vacation or a house or a car, but there are far more subtle ways that money affects us. on a day-to-day basis. The way we see money can seep into our parenting. It can seep into who does the dishes or buys the groceries.

And as we just heard from Mira and Dan, it can seep into our sex lives. All of this came about because of his taxes. Just look at how deeply they have taken us into their relationship. How much Mira and Dan have opened up for all of us. and it all came about because he filed his taxes late. Sometimes it's the simplest little wedge that opens the door to this entire cave of emotions and feelings and history.

I just want to say thank you to Dan and Mira for being so open and vulnerable with all of us. Not everyone would come on this show and talk about how money's affecting their sex lives. hopefully as you're listening to this, you can realize how important money is. It's not simply something that shows up in your Excel spreadsheet. It can affect your entire view of your life and it can affect your entire relationship together. So I'm thankful to them.

I'm grateful to them for being so open with us. Let's keep going. One of the most shocking things I've learned from this podcast is that almost all of the couples who come on my show with, 10 out of 10 money problems have never read a single book about personal finance. Not just my book, they never read any book about money. You'll note that when people talk about money, it is very easy to dream about what they want. And actually, I like dreaming.

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com slash Ramit. I don't know if he wants to be with me, honestly. I don't. When I hear Dan talk, I don't know if Dan wants to be with me. Uh-huh. And what was that thing you're looking for in this relationship again? What was that word? Safety. Uh-huh. And so when you ask him, I'm a monster, why do you even want to be with me? What do you really ask? I want to say, I want to be with you. You're not a monster. That's right. That's right. In fact, the more you push him, the more you, I'm a monster, I'm horrible, I'm no good at anything. Why would you even want to be with somebody like me? The more you push him, you're looking for him to do what? Yes, reassure me that I've not those things and he wants to be with me.

Do you see how that little gremlin on your shoulder will call her safety Sally? Okay, she's sitting on your shoulder and she's always whispering in your ear. What's she whispering in your ear? You're unsafe. It's dangerous. Yes. What else? Work harder.

Keep going. Make more money. Be safe. Figure of a plan. Be with somebody you can try. You don't trust this person. So safety Sally manifests in so many weird ways, doesn't she? She gets you to say these phrases that don't even seem connected, but it's her.

She's going, say this, Mira, say that you're a monster and make him question why he even wants to be with you because what? Finished a sentence for me. Because you wanted to prove that he thinks you're, or you're okay. Yeah. So you ask him more and more critical questions. Because if he answers them or even if he ignores you, but he stays, what does it tell you? I'm okay.

You're safe. Mm-hmm. And do you start to see how all of these behaviors that you manifest, the criticisms, the pushing him away, how would you describe the effect they have on him? him. I mean, they push him away. Yeah. The interesting thing that I was thinking is that I probably provide her more emotional security

than she's ever had before in her life. So I kind of feel like I should get some, you know, credit for like doing the job. So do you feel like I give you credit? That's safety, Sally speaking. Do you see what just happened? there, Mira? No. Okay, let's play it out. Say those words again that you just said. Don't you feel like I give you credit? Uh-huh. And what what do you hope he says right now? Yes, I feel like you give credit. Yes, I feel I give you credit and you are safe with me, right? So what should I say?

Well, let's pick another person to sit on your left shoulder. What do you want this person to be called? Secure Sarah. Okay, that's pretty good. That's all right, that's a lot of S's. I like it. You said, you know, why don't I or why would you be with somebody like me, something like that? Can we try that same response, this time with your Sarah, positive Sarah on your left corner? You are wonderful and extremely supportive in ways that I could not even have.

I have predicted that I wanted in ways that amplify what I can do and power me forward. You're the most stable and nourishing relationship I've had in my life so far. I mean, I'm just so grateful to be with you. I don't want to lose you. You're like a very magical person. who is a craftsperson. You know, you were very good at what you do with your hands. When I watched you DJ the first time, like when I saw you and you knew you were, you know.

And I really respect that so much, you know. I respect you a lot. Dan? It's nice to hear all of that for sure. But I also guess I have a pretty strong feeling of, not being respected. So it doesn't always feel in the balance like you respect me a lot. That's not something that's always clear to me.

It was nice. I was right there with her agreeing, and I felt my own love for you hearing you say that. Okay, this is great. Now we are starting to make some great progress. And we're going to turn it into even more progress in just a second. I just want to point out that just like many of the other conversations I have with couples, the thing that they originally come to me to talk about is almost never the true issue.

It's just a symptom. It's like somebody coming to me and saying, oh my gosh, Ramit, there's some red stuff on my carpet. I come and take a look. I go, you're missing your left arm and you're profusely bleeding out of it. That's blood on your carpet. They go, what? But how am I going to clean my carpet?

Okay, we want to get beyond the symptom and get to the root cause. First of all, dude, you need to go to the hospital right now. Okay? Get off Zoom. Go to the hospital. And as for the people that come to me about issues like taxes, we need to dive in and understand what's going on. In this case with Dan, Dan,

Dan, you know that Mira wants certainty, safety, and security. Deep down, you know that delaying on your taxes and not updating her is going to trigger those things. Life is hard enough. Do not create more problems for yourself. Solve the problem. Hire a tax person. Do whatever you need to do in order to make that problem disappear.

In the grand scheme, this is a relatively simple problem. the deeper issue, the more real problem is the way that both of them see money. And it's not only that, it's that they don't talk about the real issue. They simply deal with the symptoms. So what we've started to do now is we've started to go beneath that. Why does it make you so upset that I don't get my taxes in on time? And now we've gone all the way back to the first time they met. These are real conversations.

They're really hard to do alone. But the reason I started this podcast was so that you could see and hear how to have these conversations with your own partner. Let's continue. A lot of people I know, including me, are drinking less alcohol these days. One of a friend stopped completely. He said it feels amazing. But he's got a little trick. Once in a while, he takes elements new sparkling electrolyte drink to a party.

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They're much better after a tough workout or a long flight when they need to. to rehydrate. Element is formulated based on real science. It's used by Navy SEALs and Olympic athletes. And now you can get their new 12 ounce canned sparkling drink in four refreshing flavors. Pineapple salt, lemonade salt, black cherry salt, and orange salt. These slim cans deliver the same electrolyte ratio as 16 ounce sparkling with half the formulation. Get a free element sample pack with any purchase. Go to drinklmn.com slash remit. That's drink LMNN.com. That's drink t.com slash remit. Try it totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back, no questions asked. It's interesting when you can afford to buy lots of different things,

what you actually choose to spend your money on. For example, I've tried these different shampoos. At a certain point, I was just like, most of these are all the same. I'm just getting the one from the drugstore. I was talking to a friend about what type of meat we buy. He was shocked that we didn't by the most expensive meat. And I think the lesson that I have taken as I have made more money is just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's right for me. That's why the mattress that I chose to sleep on every single night is from Lisa. Lisa offers many high quality mattress models, whether you sleep on your side, your back, or somewhere in between. From the first night, you're going to be able to feel the difference. They use premium materials and it delivers

full-body support. Every Lisa mattress is assembled in the United States. It comes with free shipping, easy returns, and a 120-night sleep trial. Wirecutter actually named them the best hybrid mattress. Go to Lisa.com for 20% off mattresses, plus get an extra $50 off with promo code Rameet. That's exclusive for my listeners. That's L-E-E-E-S-A-com, promo code Rameet, for 20% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off. Support our show. Let them know that we sent you after you check out. Again, that's Lisa.com promo code Rameet. My rich life is some of it has to do with money, but a lot of it doesn't.

It's just spending a lot of time with people that I love. Specifics. We hadn't been to a movie since before COVID, and we went to a movie in a movie theater, and it was a beautiful, beautiful, very moving, inspiring movie. I just also really felt, wow, it's so good to have, like, a positive, moving, inspiring experience together and just share that. And I just, you know, so my rich life is just having my life be full of that. I mean, with Mira, with my friends, with my family, with potentially our children, with traveling with art, with music, with dancing, with having fun, sex.

I'm not personally, I don't think the details matter as much. The details really matter for your rich life because it helps me understand what motivates you. For example, I could interpret what you told me as I want to go to four movies per year. year. Is that really your rich life? No. That's definitely not what I meant. Exactly. But this is why the details matter. Give me a couple of examples, specifics. Traveling all over the world, experiencing just beautiful nature, experiencing beautiful art, culture, eating, incredible food together. How long you want to go for? Three days? Depends on the trip

But you know It's 14 days What are we talking about? Give me a number here Two weeks, three weeks a month Great Okay great I need these details

She needs it too Okay Because it gives About me though No I don't Really? I'm like no I need more specifics

Dan Do you see why she needs more specifics Well, apparently she needs them because she otherwise She's imagining something quite different from what I actually Want or think about But even you don't aren't telling me right now and I'm probing you like Mike Wallace I'm trying to get every detail and you're going I like to travel and see a museum What? What does that mean? Here's the difference example one

Hey babe let's go out to dinner on Saturday Here's example two. Babe, I have been keeping my eye on this sushi restaurant. I finally got reservations. I got them at the best time. They have this omacase. They have the sushi. It comes in from Tokyo every morning, whatever. And they have this certain type of fish. They make it and they serve it to you within 15 seconds. We have to go there. It is going to be incredible. What's the difference, Dan? Details and passion. How am I lecturing an artist on passion? This is crazy to me.

The second thing is it shows that you are proactive. And really that's what Mira is looking for. That's what makes her feel safe, is to know that someone else is being proactive. So let's try it one more time. I really want to press on this because it's important. Give me one thing in your rich life and give me some very specific details. I don't know.

Can I try? She's like, I can do it better. Like, why don't you ask me? I can do this easily. No, no, no. That is funny, but she's extending you a lifeline. That's how I would interpret that. Are you?

I'm going to try and inspire you with my, like. All right, go for it. I want to be inspired. Yeah, I want to swim with whales in Hawaii. I want to learn how to surf and I want us to find like a shared common interest and discover the world through it

and the world's most beautiful like if we love food we both love food we're both like vegetarianish like if we can discover the world like Japan, Indonesia and the most beautiful natural places through food or through

textile or through music I'm scared to swim with whales but I want to do it too I think whales are amazing and very inspiring and moving, and I want to do that. That's kind of funny, Dan, because isn't that what you said

you want to experience just a few minutes ago? Which? The part about traveling, seeing these movies, museums, art. Yeah, definitely. Anybody see what I'm getting at here?

I'm the only one? We have the same. Someone else here? We have a big overlap. It's a good thing. Yes. You have a huge. overlap, but when each of you share it, the first thing that happens is this, you nitpick the vision

to death. I'm just scared of being with an animal that's that big. But I love that. I love that, Dan. I love that you said, you know what? It would make me nervous, but I'd like to do it with you. And if it were me, one thing I might do there is just lean into that and say, you know what? When I think about swimming with a whale, that makes me really nervous. But honestly, I'd love to do it with you because what an adventure that would be. And that's the kind of life I want to create with you. She's my love. And of course I want to swim with the whales with you, babe. I want to do anything like that. Everything there is like that that there is to do. That's the response. This is when the two of you are at your best. I bet she would love it if you were to plan or even ask her about some of that.

Hey, babe, you know, I heard what you said about whales. That would be amazing. We probably can't go there right now, but... Honestly, we could go right now. I mean, not right now right now, but, like, we could plan that trip now. Like, that's... It's even in America, so you can go there. Are you guys about to do a well-watching trip right now?

Are you going to plan it right now? I love watching the two of you have this conversation. are really watching you to co-create your life. And in order for you to co-create your rich life together, what's clear to me today is that you both have to create your own individual rich lives first. Dan, you being accepted, feeling accepted, the same way that you feel about your cooking, which is one of the favorite things I've heard you talk about today,

is extending that to other parts in your life. Mira, I think you can think bigger, deeper than that. If you start to do this, suddenly a lot of those other things fall into place. Should we go on vacation or how much are we paying for rent? That stuff is a detail. It's so interesting, Dan, that we're coming full circle now. What do we want to do is actually the original question

that Mira wanted to talk about. What's our plan? Right. And now you're both finally ready to have that conversation. What's our plan for life? You know, I walked into this episode thinking, cool, we get to talk about taxes. Maybe I'll get to riff a little bit on marginal tax rates and have some fun.

And this conversation went a very different direction than I thought it would. Key takeaway from this episode is that it is possible to have a third. thriving relationship with someone, even if they see money totally differently than you. But you do need to do something different. First, you need to actually know what your views are on money. Most people don't. Second, you need to know why you have those views. Almost nobody knows that. They think they're just logical. Oh, of course, I'm so logical. You should buy a house. It's a great investment. They don't know where they got those views from. And third, you have to be willing to talk about it. If you can do those three things, you and your partner might see money totally differently,

but you can still thrive. In this case, Mira could come out and say, you know what, the way I grew up, I was taught safety first, save money. I need certainty and safety. For me, that means I need a plan. It means I need to know where we're going. And it means that sometimes when you don't tell me where you play it cool and don't talk about certain things, it makes me feel unsafe. That's a good way to start that off. Dan could say, you know what, I see money differently. I'm pretty relaxed about money.

And usually it works out for me. I want to feel accepted about what I'm doing with money. I don't want to be questions and micromanaged every day. Now that they've put everything out on the table, now they can have some conversations. Of course, you notice what we did towards the end, which was we talked about the rich life. It's very easy when each of you get into your corners to say, well, I need this and I don't like that. And you can't get out of that. That's a losing battle.

So instead, we can create a new North Star. What do we want to do with our money? What do we want to do with our lives? What is our rich life? And when we started there, you noticed that a lot of these feelings and a lot of these narratives that they have about their own money views started to disappear. Hey, if we want to go out to sushi or we want to go watch whales, cool, how can we make that happen? In other words, it's much better to move together towards a joint vision than to try to disentangle your own individual views on money. So if you are listening and you and your partner have a totally different view on money, just know that there's,

is light at the end of the tunnel, and yes, you can still find a shared vision, even though you two will never agree on certain things when it comes to money. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You to Be Rich. I'm Rameet Seity. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Head over to IWT.com slash podcast to find our entire back catalog of episodes and links to all. the places you can listen.