Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 5. “I paid off $50,000 of debt, but I still feel guilty buying toothpaste”

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

Sheena has paid off a huge chunk of her student debt. Peter wants to plan a trip to Japan for their 10th anniversary and decorate their apartment, but Sheena’s first reaction is, “How will we afford it?” Money is one of the first things she thinks about. She thinks about it every day, even when buying toothpaste.  Sheena is clearly terrified of money. She can’t even feel proud that last year mid-pandemic, she paid off $15,000 of her credit card debt! When I ask her how she’ll feel when her debt is paid off, she says “Better...I hope?” But I know it won’t happen unless she changes her money psychology. Sheena and Peter’s story is an example of how we can punish ourselves unnecessarily when we grapple with finances with an all-or-nothing approach. Sheena has created a financial cage in her own mind -- but she also has the keys to get out. Listen in to understand how just a few shifts to her money psychology -- and a surprising financial strategy -- will let her take control of her money. Connect with Ramit Website Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube Linkedin Produced by Crate Media.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years.

And another member made a rule that any time she buys a ticket for an event, she always buys a second so that she can bring a friend. These are just a few examples of how my money coaching members have built systems to use their money. Notice that there's no more anxiety, that they have a smooth running system. They know when their debt's going to be paid off. They can feel comfortable spending on the things they love. They can actually spend less time on their finances while living an amazing life. In my money coaching program, members also get access to live events every month, including topics like money with aging parents and how to create

amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel, plus Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join the program right now. I think it's really upset because he wants me to be more positive and he wants to be able to do things with his money. And sorry, it makes me feel bad. It's okay.

Makes me feel bad that I can't like give him those things. I can see it in her face. I can see her calculating. Before we even look at like hotel prices or like like no prices at all, I can see her already come to the conclusion that we can't afford it. I think it's really frustrating. I want to be free. Like I feel like I have this.

have this chain around me and I can't live my life. Because if I buy something nice or I do something for our apartment, I just have this voice in the back of my head, like, why are you buying this? Why aren't you paying off your debt? We talk a little bit on surface level about money, but I don't think we've ever really talked like this. And so it's kind of the first time I'm hearing it. Welcome to I Will Teach You to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi, and my guest today are Sheena and Peter, who are both climbing their way out of substantial debt. For today's episode, I'm going to focus on Sheena's debt because it's causing both of them a lot of stress. Sheena has already paid off tens of thousands of dollars, and she also knows exactly when the rest

will be paid off. But she just can't seem to stop feeling bad about money. She thinks about it all the time, when she's at the grocery store, when she's eating out, and also when she and Peter are talking about their future together. Now within minutes, I knew there was something a lot deeper than the debt itself. Remember, this is almost never a math problem. Let's start with her family. And as we go along, listen for the clues. We never really talked about money.

Looking back now as an adult, I see that there was a lot of bad credit card usage. My mom, she actually just told me that she cut up her credit cards yesterday. I know like when I would help my grandmother pay her bills, I know she had a large amount of debts on her credit cards and she would only pay the minimum. But I remember thinking like, this is never going to get paid off. And, you know, when she died, that fell on the family. So selling stuff to pay off the debt. And so I don't think my family really handled money very well. But it's kind of frustrating, but also I don't really blame. them, I understand, I understand why they were in that situation or in that or in that situation.

When I was going to college, my mom's like, take out as many, like as much loans as you can, like the full amount. And so that's what I did. And so I graduated with, you know, like $70,000 of student loans. And I don't think my mom realized what kind of burden that would put on me in the future. That constant debt, like I have to pay it every month. And it's, you know, it's not cheap. It's like, you know, $400 some dollars a month and I've gotten it down a lot. I'm around $15,000

now left. So it feels better because I'm like, okay, it's getting there. Like I've paid it down from $70,000. But yeah, it's definitely like always felt like a burden or like this dark cloud over me. But like I'm constantly thinking about my debt. Anytime

I have to or want to buy something, Anytime like I'm going to the grocery store, I'm thinking, okay, how much money do I have? Oh, I don't have as much as I need. So there's like health things that come up. Like I just had to get an MRI and it was $500. And I'm thinking, well, now I have to pay that off. So it wouldn't be that bad if I didn't have the student loan debt and then the credit card debt on top of that.

So I feel like I can't really pay for these necessities that come up. to people in debt, one of the most common feelings they have is one step forward, two steps back. There's even a concept called the poor tax where poor people actually end up paying more for things like shoes because they can only afford to buy poor quality shoes. Those are the same shoes that break more frequently than higher quality shoes. So here in Sheena's case, she's making progress and then something comes up that sets her back again. after one time, two times, three times, it's not just frustrating. It starts to feel hopeless.

You have to remember, we're not robots. If you and I try something and fail repeatedly, the vast majority of us just give up. So when you look at Sheena's behavior through this lens, one step forward, two steps back, I did everything right and I can't seem to get ahead, her feelings start to make a lot more since. Like a year ago, we were talking about going to Japan. And it's something that we really wanted to do for our 10th anniversary, which is this year. And my first thought was how are we going to make that happen? I have so much debt. I need to pay that offers. How am I going to do this? Like, I don't have money saved. And then I was looking into where we would want to stay and how much that's going to cause because, you know, we don't want to go to Japan and stay in like a really cheap hotel. oh, like, we want to have the full experience. And it just kept adding up. And I'm like, how would I do this?

It's like a pretty common pattern where I can see it in her face. I can see her calculating, like telling things up. Before we even look at like hotel prices or like no prices at all, I can see her already come to the conclusion that we can't afford it. It's frustrating. And it's also a bummer because it's supposed to be a nice thing, right? It's supposed to be so 10th anniversary. It's not even about like staying at nice hotel.

else. Like if it's not in the cards for us to have this kind of, you know, extravagant trip, my thinking is always, oh, we can always find something that we would enjoy. It doesn't have to be extravagant, but I can see it in her face already that she's already decided it's not possible. And I think it's really frustrating. I've always had this mindset, okay, we'll figure it out. And even if it's not the most ideal, we can find something that is enjoyable for us. I get really frustrated, I think, and I kind of shut down and I just give up, oh, it's going to cost this much. You know, I just kind of go into the same thing where I'm explaining, I don't have this money set aside, I have too much debt. It's not possible for us to do this.

I think it's just ingrained in me. I've been in so much debt for so long, you know, like paying off student loans or I was kind of stupid in my 20s. And so I'm like, I'm still paying for that as like, you know, a 35 year old woman. And so my plan right now is like I need to put all my money I can to my debt and I need to get that off. And I don't have this plan or like way of thinking where I do that and live my life. And I think that is a very hard thing for me to figure out. Did you catch all those clues? Sheena feels frustrated by her debt.

Okay, fine. But then Peter points out that she instinctively says no to anything for the two of them, meaning her debt is now affecting their relationship. And did you hear what he said? He said, I could see it in her face, even for something like their 10-year anniversary. You know what I found most interesting, though? In one sentence, Sheena says she basically wants to give up. But then just a few seconds later, she says she has a plan.

and that plan is to put all her money towards her debt. This is a really big clue. This is all or nothing thinking. The idea that you either have to go 100% all in or you're a total failure. And this is really the key to what's going on here. You feel bad for long enough. You either completely give up

or if you stay in the game, you're very likely to develop tunnel vision. Listen to Sheena as she grapples with this. There's a pretty cool TikTok trend going around right now that I really love. It's called admin nights. Basically, you get your friends together, you get some snacks, maybe some drinks, and you do all the infrastructure stuff in life that most of us skip over. If you're going to set up an admin night, here's my suggestion for you.

Use Zoc Doc to book your health appointments and you will be done fast. ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps. helps you find and book high quality in network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have over 150,000 doctors across all 50 states in 200 plus specialties, including mental health, dental, primary care, whatever you need. Just filter for doctors based on insurance, location, ratings, even virtual care options. And Zoc Doc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. You can look through your options, book an appointment, and you are done. needed to find a new doctor today,

Zoc Doc is what I would use. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoch.com slash Ramith to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's ZOC, doc.com slash remit. Zokdoch.com slash remit.

And I want to thank Zokdoch for sponsoring this message. Just guess the average wait time to see a doctor in the United States. I'm not talking about a specialist, just a regular standard family. doctor. You think it's a week, two weeks? Nope, it's over 30 days. So a lot of times whatever symptoms you have are going to be gone or maybe worse by the time you get to that appointment. I don't want you to have to wait weeks to see a doctor. I want you to get seen faster by an in-network doctor

using Zocdoc. Zocdog is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have over 150,000 doctors across all 50 states in 200 plus specialties, including mental health, dental, primary care, whatever you need. Just filter for doctors based on insurance, location, ratings, even virtual care options. And Zoc Doc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. You can look through your options, book an appointment, and you are done. If I needed to find a new doctor today, Zocdoc is what I would use. Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com slash Rameith to find and instantly book a doctor you love today.

That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash Rameith. Zok-D-D-C-com slash Rameh. And I want to thank Zok-Dak for sponsoring this message. I think it's really upset because he wants me to be more positive and he wants to be able to do things with his money. And sorry, it makes me feel bad. It's okay. Makes me feel bad that I can't like those things.

Okay. And if you could, how would you, what would it mean to you if you were able to think positively? I think it would be better for him and me, but I do think it would be more supportive of him. I think I have like an all or nothing mentality a lot of the time, which he's like, oh, no, we'll figure something out. So I think that's exactly what happens is that I'm sitting there thinking about it. and I'm like, well, we can't do it. Like, for example, we redoing our apartment. And when we were initially talking about it,

she's like, had this kind of reaction where it's like overwhelmed already before even sort of broke it down. And I'd even mention like, okay, maybe we'll just paint the walls or get rid of stuff. It wasn't just the idea of redoing our apartment overwhelmed her.

It made me feel like I'm always taking the lead, whereas I want her to feel like she's a part of the process too. Sheena, what do you think about what Peter just said. I'm sorry. You take your time. It makes me a little sad that maybe he thinks I'm putting a lot of a lot of this on him to figure things out.

And I do, I do kind of shut down right away. I get, it is, it's because I get overwhelmed. And I don't know if that's just because I'm constantly stressed about debt and money, but it makes me feel sad. And it's hard because we never, I mean, we talk a little bit on surface level about money, but I don't think we've ever really talked like this. And so it's kind of the first time I'm hearing it. It's just kind of like a nagging voice, you know,

just always there like, you shouldn't be buying this. You shouldn't be buying socks right now. You have socks. Like stupid little things like that, you know? I get a sense of a lot of guilt following us around with how we spend money. And like, for example, like we just had a staycation in New York. And, you know, it was a special that we split and all the stuff the entire time. Even though we were in this nice room and we were only a room service, you can just feel it.

There was like another person there where it's like, do not enjoy this. You can't enjoy this, right? Yeah. Even though we set money aside, we just couldn't enjoy it as much as we wanted to. Who's that third person there hovering over? Is it the same person that you said, Sheena, nags you in your head? Yeah. Yeah.

I feel it. Did you know this? Sheena, did you know that Peter knows about this voice? I don't know if I really knew. I think you get a sense of it. Yeah, you got a sense of it. If I'm preempting your response to like decorating the apartment or coffee, then I know it's there. Of course you both do.

You're a couple. You know each other. You don't even have to say anything. If I can stick to my schedule and nothing else comes up, it'll be March 2020. too. And when is your debt payoff date? It is October 22. I have to tell you that of the people I speak to who have debt, 95% of them do not know when their debt will be paid off. So you are in a very elite group of people. I probably look at my finances too much. Yeah, we should talk about that. Lots of hints here, lots of clues. First, I'm really impressed that Sheena knows her debt payoff date.

Almost nobody knows this. That demonstrates she's not acting like an ostrich. She's not trying to put her head in the sand and avoid her debt. She's really done some serious work to take control of her debt. And in fact, she's paid off over $50,000. If you want to know how to pay off your debt and create a debt payoff plan, you can learn how using my book. But also, notice that she constantly beats herself up.

Money is not a source of accomplishment to her. It's not opportunity or growth. It's guilt, shame, negativity. When you hate money, you will make very, very bad decisions around it. Listen as I probe about her feelings around money. When your debt is paid off, do you think your attitude toward money will change?

I don't know. That's what I'm a little worried about. I'm worried that, I don't know, like that I'm going to get to this place and that I'm going to feel the same way. Am I actually going to feel better when I get to that point? I really hope so. But I don't know if I'm going to, I don't know if I'm going to stop worrying about money. Like I would love to not have to worry, oh, do I have enough in my checking account to pay for these groceries? Or do I just use my credit card because I don't have enough?

I think about it in terms of also like fitness and finances are very simple. And I think about, you know, we got in shape for our wedding and then we kind of slacked off a little bit afterwards. And I feel like that's a possibility to if like even though her debt would be paid and she doesn't have this cloud above her, I still feel like she might have that guilt still around spending money. I mean, it's a possibility because then I would be terrified like, oh my God, I can't, you know, I can't have anything on my credit cards. It would be maybe a little scared to spend that. But I would be hoping that based on my spreadsheet that I do have, that I wouldn't have to look at that intensely because I wouldn't have all these little other bills to pay. I would be hoping that it would be okay because I would have my budget of how much I could spend

and then I would pay it off every month, which I've never been able to do that before. I think that your attitude towards money is not going to change. at all if you keep doing what you're doing. I think that you are going to pay off your debt. I have total confidence in that. And I think that you are going to continue worrying because it's comfortable and it's what you've known. You already have a plan. So if you were going to stop worrying, you would have already been doing it. That little third party, Franny or whatever we want to call her, Franny's going nowhere unless you force Franny out. And that takes a lot of work. That takes the work that you're doing right now. I know many, many people who pay off their debt or even worse,

they make a lot of money and they still feel the exact same way. And they thought that the money and the spreadsheet would solve it, but it's two totally separate problems. Totally. It scares me a little bit because I don't want to feel like that. I don't want to keep feeling like this. Yeah. So tell me what I need to do to change. So I don't feel like this in the future. I don't want to I'd go, I don't want to be living in a spreadsheet, but I do. I track every little thing that I bought. Yeah, I used to do it every night. I don't anymore. I do it every Friday. My Friday finances. And how does it make you feel when you do it? It makes me feel in control. Oh, wow. Tell me more about that. It just feels, it makes me feel like I have a handle on my money and

like I'm doing what I need to do. Okay, then if that's true, then why do you feel guilty when you buy toothpaste? Okay, listen closely. Sheena is about to have a major breakthrough. you know because I'm probably doing it wrong. I'm trying to pay off my credit cards maybe too soon. So what happens is that I put this huge chunk of money onto my credit cards and I give myself $150 to spend for the week, which doesn't even cover my food anymore. So every little thing I buy takes out of that $150 a week. And that runs out pretty fast, especially if all of a sudden I have to get,

Take pace. You didn't budget for that, I'm sure. Nobody does. I did not. So, yeah, those little things, like, come into play, and then I have to end up using my credit card again. And is there a realization you're hearing as you talk about this out loud? That I'm not budgeting properly.

What does that mean specifically? Like, I am putting too much money onto paying off my debt, but I just feel like I need to be paying it off fast. Almost like it's. All or nothing. Yeah, I didn't even think of that. All or nothing really sneaks up on me. All or nothing thinking shows up again.

This is the idea that if you're watching what you eat and you suddenly have a few chips, your entire day is ruined. So screw it. I'm going to have a pizza and chips and ice cream. Either I'm perfect or I won't even participate at all. Now, of course, hearing this sounds absurd. We know that when kids, start to learn how to ride a bike. They suck. Every kid listening to this, you suck at riding a bike.

You don't know anything. You can't even stay up on those two pedals. But guess what? We don't expect them to be some racing champion. These kids are just happy. They're having fun. Yeah, they're just happy if they can ride upright for 10 seconds. But as adults, we are so unfamiliar with what it feels like to start from Ground Zero that we create these all or nothing scenarios. Either we are 100% great or we're not going to play at all. Remember my 85% solution from my book. Getting 85% of the way there is better than dreaming about 100% and actually getting 0% of the way there at all.

I have this email software that I love so much. I pay for it personally. And just 20 minutes ago, I used one of its AI tools. I'm currently doing a pitch to some journalists for the story that I want to run. and I said, go through my emails for the last two years, identify every top-tier journalist that I've interacted with, and then sort them based on this story that I want to pitch and pull their email addresses for me. It did it in 20 seconds. You can use this software called Superhuman. Today's sponsor, Superhuman is an AI native email and calendar for busy professionals and teams.

It learns your voice so we can pre-draft email responses for you. This stuff is important because momentum is what helps you drive forward. The auto draft feature that I mentioned, that drafts follow-ups for you automatically, also schedules replies so nothing falls through the cracks. You can make sure that somebody responds to you if you need to check in on it. It's all automatic. And its auto-archive feature can help you keep your inbox clear by letting you automatically archive entire categories of emails, so they never even hit your inbox. My favorite thing of all is how fast this software is. You can do everything from the keyboard. You can use shortcuts like you wouldn't believe you can get through tons of emails in minutes. My team and I at IWT use superhuman.

We love it. And I think you will too. Turn your inbox into momentum. Sign up for superhuman mail today. Go to superhuman.com slash remit three and try it for yourself. That's superhuman.com slash remit three, the number three. Here's some of the most creative I will teach you to be rich businesses that my students have created. Nate turned his love of chess into a chess coaching and training business and started a legal strategy business for online entrepreneurs and creatives. Scott teaches yoga all over the world, including in the south of France. Now, what I love about all these, they're so different, but they started from the same question. What if I took the thing I love and turned it into a business? One of the things that entrepreneurs

learn is how to keep it simple. That is why when I'm working with new IWT students who are just first-time entrepreneurs, I recommend that they get started with Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S., including brands like Mattel and Jim Shark. They've got ready to go beautiful templates for important things like your website, landing pages. Plus, they have helpful AI tools to make everyday tasks easier, like generating discount codes and enhancing your product images. It's like having a full marketing team behind you. They've got easy to run email and special media campaigns to help you connect with new customers. And everything is in one place.

Tackle your inventory, payments, analytics, and more without having to jump from platform to platform. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash Ramith. Go to Shopify.com slash Ramith. That's Shopify. Of course. It hits us in every part of life. So for just a moment, I want you to inhabit my world what I would be saying if I heard somebody in your situation and I'm going to repeat a few facts that they've shared with me and then you play the role of me and you give me some advice. So here are the facts. I've had debt for a long time. I paid off a considerable amount and I'm within striking distance of paying it off. I know the exact month and year. I check my finances

every Friday. So I know it makes me feel in control. Throughout the week, things tend to come up and then I overspend. I put it on my credit card. It makes me feel bad. I hear a third voice in the back of my head telling me that's bad. You shouldn't do that. What advice would you give me? I think that maybe you shouldn't be putting as much onto paying off your debts so that you have that amount sent aside for things that come up during the week. But that feels very wrong for me to say. Why? Because having this high interest debt is just adding, you know, every month.

There's just more and more interest added on to it. So it's just bad to have that much debt. What I want to point out to you is that money is multi-dimensional. You're looking at it from the mathematical perspective, which is great. We always want to understand the math. You know your debt payoff date. You know your interest rate. Awesome. But I want you to really reflect on the moments where you have gotten overwhelmed or visibly upset on this call. Let me give you a hint. It wasn't around the math. What was it around? Her relationship and how it's affecting that.

Yeah, yeah. And so you are following the rules, but they are the rules that you set up for yourself. And to tell you the truth, they're making you really upset. So what I see when I hear you is someone who has accomplished something extremely impressive. 70K to less than 15K is amazing,

knows their debt payoff date, is willing to come here, and talk to me and engage with your partner. But I just see that this rule you created for yourself is so tightly wound out. It's like a rubber band that's ready to snap. And if I could simply suggest one thing would be, what if we just loosen that just a little? What does it feel like when you hear that?

I think it's a little scary because then that means, you know, I live with my debt for a little bit longer, but I think it might be the right thing to do. I think it would make me feel a little bit more at ease to how it was a Peter. All right, this sounds good. Let's figure out a plan of attack starting with how much Sheena is spending. $1,160 per month of credit card debt off. Is that correct?

At least. So I want to say it's really counterintuitive to slow your payments on debt. But because you were. both really disciplined about your fitness journey, I'm going to use the fitness analogy. You know that if you cut your calories too much, it's possible that you just stop the program altogether. And I think we've all experienced this. We go a little too aggressive and then we just zoom back the other way. Or perhaps you stretch it to 15 months or 16, whatever the number may be, but you're actually going to sustain it and not feel bad the entire time.

Most importantly of all, you are starting to work on your money psychology before the debt is paid off. You go down this route, you pay off your debt, you're still going to be feeling bad, and you're going to have Frannie sitting there in the corner for the rest of your life. To me, that's a failure.

Because on paper, you're going to be debt-free, but I know so many other IWT readers, they have made so much money, and they are still living guilty lives, the guilt that they started feeling at the age of 15 or 20. That's a failed, rich life to me. Yes, you are going to pay a little bit more in interest. That's okay.

It's rare for me to say this, but it is okay. Because the rules you've said for yourself are so strict and stringent. They're causing you to not live a good life. And it's starting to have serious costs. It's starting to be a barrier between the two of you. Yeah, I see that because last year alone I paid off 15,000 just on my credit card. And that was with, you know, partially like not having a job too part of the year. So I was really, really, really strict and it was not fun.

It was not fun. I don't really even feel that much better right now of paying all that off. So I see what you're saying. Now that Sheena and Peter have a plan that's realistic, We need to do a little bit of what I call failure expectation. When we're creating a plan, I always like to talk about the risks, especially when people are about to change the way that they interact with money. I want to inoculate them against what can go wrong because it's going to help them

understand what pitfalls to look out for, and that's going to make them much more likely to succeed. I mean, obviously there's going to be more interest, but I really can't. see risks with it because I actually feel it would be less risky because right now if I run out of money in my checking, I'm going to my credit card. So it actually seems safer to me in a way, a safer option in terms of the money. Yeah, I don't see other than extending the time frame for her payoff. I think the longer payment plan might scare her in the beginning. But if that gets her more time to enjoy her money and relax a little bit about it. She'll work through that and get over

it after a little bit. I guess the worst fear would be just running my credit cards up so much that I can't afford to pay the minimum and pay for rent and pay my state of loans. Like, that's the worst thing that could happen. And what happens then? My credit score goes down and I get charges on top of that because I'm not paying the minimum. So just kind of like digging myself into a bigger whole. hole. Yeah. And then what happens? I don't know. I always like to ask because, you know, we have these low-grade fears often. And with money, I would say yours has been more than a low-grade fear. You're talking about groceries and you're thinking about money. But when I ask, what's the worst that could happen? It's, well, I might get more debt. Okay, what does that mean? Well, my credit score might

go down. But who really cares about your credit score? What does that matter? Yeah. So what is the worst fear? Do you think about your relationship? Very scary. It's just scary. It's like it's making me emotional thinking about it. I just think it puts so much stress in my life. And I don't think I've realized for a long time how much stress it gives me. I don't want to have to think about it. I just feel like there's no end in sight. It's just the stress. And I don't want that. I want to be free. Like I feel like I have to have. this chain around me and I can't live my life. Because if I buy something nice or I do something for our apartment, I just have this voice in the back of my head. Like, why are you buying this? Why aren't you paying off your debt?

People who have financial problems love to talk about their problems. My job is to get them out of that cycle and to gently focus them on solutions. Here I have a situation where Sheena's money psychology runs deep and it's affecting her relationship with Peter. So what I did was I asked them to put themselves in each other's shoes and verbalize how their partner probably feels. And this is a really, really difficult exercise.

And I'm using it because it forces them to get out of their heads and out of their automatic responses. Entrepreneurs, let's talk about systems. This is the year you can give yourself the gift of sorting out your business systems. tons of small businesses are held together by duct tape and 15 different platforms and tears, but it does not have to be this way. You can simplify your business systems, save time, and streamline your workflows in 2026 with NetSuite. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP.

It's trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It simplifies your business into a single platform. That's your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM, all in. one place. Plus, it uses an AI-built system to automate your routines, deliver actionable insights, and help you cut costs with confidence. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you innovate and improve. If I'd had a system like this, back when I was building IWT, it would have changed everything. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide, demystifying AI at NetSuite.com slash remit.

That's netsuite.com slash remit. It's interesting when you can afford to buy lots of different things, what you actually choose to spend your money on. For example, I've tried these different shampoos. At a certain point, I was just like, most of these are all the same. I'm just getting the one from the drugstore. I was talking to a friend about what type of meat we buy. He was shocked that we didn't buy the most expensive meat.

And I think the lesson that I have taken as I have made more money is just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's right for me. That's why the mattress that I chose to sleep on every single night is from Lisa. Lisa offers many high-quality mattress models, whether you sleep on your side, your back, or somewhere in between. From the first night, you're going to be able to feel the difference. They use premium materials and it delivers full body support. Every Lisa mattress is assembled in the United States. It comes with free shipping, easy returns, and a 120-night sleep trial. Wirecutter actually named them the best hybrid mattress.

Go to Lisa.com for 20% off mattresses, plus get an extra $50 off with promo code remit. That's exclusive for my listeners. That's L-E-E-E-S-A.com promo code remit for 20% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. Support our show. Let them know that we sent you after you check out. Again, that's Lisa.com promo code Rameet. Okay. I'm going to try to think like how you think we talk about the deep pan trip. And if you came to me, how I did, I would feel very sad.

I feel like you shut down. It showed down like the whole idea. Money is emotional. I would be surprised if you weren't. You're talking about something you've probably never talked about at this level. I think you might feel kind of nervous to bring up anything else in the future. Maybe that you couldn't contribute to the relationship because I would just, you know, shut it down, shut down an idea.

So maybe that would make you feel being scared to communicate to me. I would feel frustrated because I want to do things with you. I want to enjoy life with you, but it doesn't seem like I can. and it frustrates me and it can make me feel like I'm not part of or I'm not fun. I can't be a part of this relationship because there's something wrong with me. Like I can't get out of this hole and it frustrates me and I know it frustrates you and I don't know what to do about it. That's what I feel like when I think about what you must be going through.

Sheena, what do you think about what Peter says? I think it's pretty accurate. Yeah, I think I feel like I can't get out of the hole because I've been in it so long. I guess what I would add is that I just feel like I can't really enjoy life without feeling bad about it. I feel guilt. Yeah, I don't think we've ever really talked about that. Yeah, we never really talked about life after debt. Yeah, you never have.

Even though you had a debt payoff plan, you never once talked about what. what happens the day after. Let's start at the ground level. What if you could go to the grocery store and never, ever think about how much toothpaste costs for you? That would be amazing. The simple things in life. We start there.

Never, you do not have to price shop on this toothpaste. You just get it. You want to get to be my guest. Okay, what would the next level be? If we could try, you know, when things open up, if we could try like a new cocktail bar that we love to do. Great. How many times per month? Well, let's get it at one.

And how many drinks? Three each. They're really nice. Yeah. Yeah. So part of changing your psychology, both of you, is to really start to be able to dream bigger. We have earned the right to think bigger. What are you going to do the first month after you paid off?

We should go for a nice dinner. We've gone to nice dinners. We always go to night dinners. I feel like we should go like upstate or something. Like we always talk about going to a road trip, going somewhere outside of the city, spending some time together. And hopefully Franny's not there. Franny is not going to be invited a lot. No. I feel like we will be able to talk about things more and be, I think, more optimistic about things we want to do or, like, redecorating the apartment or trips or even, you know, thinking about going to a nice bar when things open up again. Like, I think she'll be more optimistic and excited about it. And I would feel less stress in terms of approaching her or having to figure things out all the time. She's always worried about money. and I feel like we can feel more like a team with how we decide to spend our time and money and lives together.

That's what I was thinking, too. I love this episode because we had so many dynamics at play. Sheena's debt, her impressive payoff, but her focus on money as a source of stress and shame. And of course, how that was affecting her relationship with Peter. Here's my suggestion to you. Listen to this episode with your partner and talk about the conversation. Use this as a sounding board. Ask your partner what they noticed.

Ask them if they've ever felt overwhelmed with money. Tell them a time where you have. If you find that either of you are judging throughout this episode, pause for a second. Try to understand the ways that you are irrational with your money or that you are emotional or just plain weird about money. you might be surprised. And remember, in personal finance, we overvalue math and undervalue psychology. This podcast is meant to help you change that. I received a follow-up letter from Peter and Sheena a few months after we spoke. Now, you can read the full letters at IWT.com slash follow-ups, but here's an excerpt of what Peter wrote. Since the show, we have zero tension talking about

anything money related now. We've booked a trip together without having to question if we could afford it. Even upgraded our seats, we started saving for a bigger apartment, which includes $15,000 for fees and movers, and ended up saving too fast. Being on your podcast really took our relationship to a new level. We just want to thank you so much. To read the full letter, go to IW www.com slash follow-ups and enter your email address. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Here's what you'll find next week on the I Will Teach You to Be Rich podcast. I do wish my parents help more 100%,

but they're very old school. They believe the husband should be making money. The husband should be providing and everything. It becomes a big fight and we try to make up at the end of the night, but it adds up. We were living month to month, and I didn't think it was going to be like that before we got married. If you want me to provide, we got a downgrade. I can't keep providing a lifestyle that we can't afford.