Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi - 91. “I helped pay off his $30k+ credit card debt and he didn’t even care” (Part 1)

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

Nicole and Jorden are in their 30s and have been dating for four years. Nicole recently graduated from college, jumping into an orthodontics career starting at $400,000 a year. Jorden’s failed personal training business, and lack of resolve to improve his situation, have her questioning everything. This episode is brought to you by: Sakara | Right now, Sakara is offering our listeners 20% off their first order. Use code RAMIT during checkout at Sakara.com/ramit for 20% off all nutrition programs and wellness essentials. BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/ramit today to get 10% off your first month. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at DrinkLMNT.com/RAMIT. Links mentioned in this episode Join the LIVE watch party of my Netflix Show Netflix show BTS newsletter (limited time only) Get my New York Times best-selling book Get my no-numbers journal Get Money Coaching with Ramit  Connect with Ramit Download the Conscious Spending Plan Other episodes Instagram Twitter YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month-long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years. And another member made a rule that any time she buys a ticket for an event, she always buys a second so that she can bring a friend. These are just a few examples of how my money coaching members have built systems to use their money. Notice that there's no more anxiety, that they have a smooth running system. They know when their debt's going to be paid off.

They can feel comfortable spending on the things they love. They can actually spend less time on their finances while living an amazing life. In my money coaching program, members also get access to live events every month, including topics like money with aging parents and how to create a lot. amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel, plus Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to

our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out IWT.com slash money coaching to join now. That's IWT.com slash money coaching to join the program right now. Let me read what you wrote in your application to me. Nicole. Gosh. Can I read from this? You can read from it.

You wrote, We recently had an argument that escalated our previous conversations from, quote, are we financially ready to be engaged to, quote, this man needs to pack his bags? How are we going to make big purchases together when his credit score shuts it down? I'm now angry, upset, frustrated that I didn't find out our huge financial differences four years ago. Am I overreacting or is it time to find a partner who matches me? financially. Oh gosh. I'm sorry. I just, I was in an angry place and I hate just hearing those words.

I don't mean that to Jordan. I was just an angry place. Can I, should I continue or not? It's, it's totally. I don't, I don't even want Jordan to hear. I feel like that's not honest. I don't want Jordan to hear that. Jordan, what do you think from all the things that you just heard from Nicole? That's a lot to me. Second year. Nicole is 30 and Jordan is 34. I'd like to introduce you to this couple today. She's an orthodontist. He's a personal trainer. And for most of his life, he's carried credit card debt. That issue is leading Nicole to question their relationship. In this episode, you're going to hear about income disparities and class and ambition. Listen closely because I think a lot of the issues affecting Nicole and Jordan also affect a lot of us. Now, if you'd like, you can watch this full episode on YouTube. where you can see their body language and facial expressions, and those add a whole new dimension to these conversations. One last thing before we start, a lot of you have been listening for a while.

I appreciate you listening. I appreciate you sharing this on social media. Thank you. If you have not yet taken control of your money, then I want to encourage you to. It's one thing to listen for entertainment. It's another thing to listen to find some tidbits and lessons you can apply to your relationship. But I don't want this to just, be entertainment for you. I want you to take control of your rich life. You can do that in a few ways. One, get my book. Get it from any bookstore or the library. It's called I Will Teach You to Be Rich. In six weeks, your money will be automated. Next, you can get my journal. Design your rich life. Do it solo or with a partner. Third, you can join my money coaching program. Iwt.com

slash money coaching. Take control. I will be happy to coach you there. I do it every single month. And of course, you can watch my Netflix show, which is coming out. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. Let's get into it. I was helping Jordan pay off the credit card debt. I started in the summer of last year. And when we were getting close to the end of paying it off, I walked into the kitchen and I was like, I think we're going to pay off. I think we're going to pay the last payment this month. And I was really excited and I was like, we should, we should do some to celebrate. And then Jordan was cooking and he was busy in the kitchen and he was like,

well, I just don't think it's as dire as you do. And I was like, what do you mean? It's not, like, what do you mean by the credit card debt is not dire to you? And from what I remember, Jordan was telling me that I've always had credit card debt. It's always been something I've had. I'm used to having credit card debt. It doesn't seem like something that's extreme. And in my head, I was thinking, well, there's no point in investing. There's no point in doing anything else if we have a high interest credit card debt. But, I couldn't really communicate everything that I wanted to or really see where he was. And so we just walked away from that conversation.

You just walked out of the kitchen? I knew where that conversation was going to go. I could see Jordan getting stressed and I knew it was going to go to, I just don't make enough money. I feel like I'm doing everything it can with my business. It's going to go into that way of him stressing about his business and how much income he's making. I was shocked. Before we had communicated about the credit card debt and we were living in Colorado. He would say like I feel like I make progress towards paying it off and then I get a set back and I'm back to where I am. And so the whole time we're in Colorado, I'm like, well, when I start making money, like we're going to be a team. We're going to have a second income and I'll be able to help you with that because Jordan supported me a lot when I was in Colorado and I had no income. So I thought that was my way of giving back and I was going to be able to support him. our future. So I just felt like, wow, we are not, we were not thinking about this the same at all

when I started contributing towards that. I didn't feel like he understood me at all. How much was this debt that we're talking about here? It was probably, it was around, what was the 25,000, roughly? 31, 31, but 31. Okay. 31,000 and you both together paid it off in about six months. Is that right? Yeah, five, four or five months. So she was coming in to celebrate.

Like, first of all, do you both think that that's good, bad, impressive, mediocre? What do you both think about paying off 30K of credit card debt in about five months? I was excited. Okay. Jordan? I mean, yeah, then you look at it. it like that it's i mean it's probably not a lot of people who could accomplish that yeah look at it like what but looking back kind of just looking in it in simple terms like you know he paid off 30 000 in five six months what would be the opposite of simple terms um i guess the way i look at it through my my lens tell me my view my viewpoint of like again this is great but it's like not fixing the root cause of of what stresses me out. So that's why it was, for me, yeah, it was great,

but like this has been a situation that I've been in before where I have paid off my credit card debt and then business would be really slow and I would have to rack it up again just for basic expenses and stuff like that. So for me, it was very like, yeah, this is great, but like it's not fixing the root of my stress, I guess. You get nervous talking about money?

nervous yeah a little bit i notice your breath is catching even as you're recounting that story yeah it's i guess it's uh like i said it's a tough conversation because it is something that causes so much stress for me like what what kind of stress um i guess like maybe fear you know not being able to help provide for us or our future you know not being able to help provide for us or your family. Do you want to reflect on that at all now that the other person is here in the room? Yeah, I mean, I definitely have looked back at that conversation a few times and be like, and that was kind of been a catalyst for me to like figure out like, okay, I need to handle my stress better, but it's definitely something that, you know, not, not a conversation that I was,

I'm proud of by any means. Have you two talked about that conversation since then? I don't think so, more so in this forum, I guess. Like when we talked with Heather, we talked about a little bit, but we haven't really sat down and discussed it. Do you want to do it right now? Sure. All right, why don't you two talk and I'll observe? Go ahead.

Nicole, I appreciate everything that you have done to help and support me, including helping me with my credit card debt because I know that that is something that is important for our future. And while I still have some things to figure out and work on as far as growing my business to avoid having that issue in the future, I really appreciate that you helped me with that. And that's one of the things that I love about you. Thank you. I was like one of the first times Jordan's thanked me for that. So thank you.

It's kind of beautiful to watch. I almost wish it had happened earlier. It's such a way of connecting. What did you feel, Jordan, as you were saying, what you said? Gratitude, appreciation. Yeah. That's cool. and how about for you, Nicole?

I know that Jordan is grateful. I know that deep down because Jordan I've been together for years. I know he's not great with apologies, but I know when he's sorry. I know how he, his body language speaks more with me than how he verbalizes things,

but it is really nice to hear and work sometimes that he's thankful. All right. Well, I love watching that. Let's talk a little bit more about the credit card debt, and let's talk a little bit more about what brought you here. You had this credit card debt.

Jordan, what was the credit card debt incurred for? Part of it is just business expenses. Like what? Like just, I guess, general operating expenses, like coaching, and then just basic living expenses, groceries, gas. How long do you take? you to incur that 30k of credit card debt?

It was probably over a couple of years, two, three years. Did you think at any point, like, this is a problem, or was it more like, I'll solve it when I start making more money? I guess I didn't look at it as like a big problem. I looked at it, I guess was more as like I was doing,

what I had to do to live and build a business. And there are times where I'd have a really good month or two, I'd pay off a lot of it and then fall back into it slow down again. And so it was something that I always felt

like eventually I'll be able to figure it out and even things out. So many things to notice already. First, Jordan is literally shaking as he's talking. And if you're not watching this on YouTube, I would encourage you to. I have to step back here for a second and tell you how much I appreciate my guest

coming on this show and talking about these topics. It's not easy. Would you come on a show in front of millions of people and share every bit of your finances? Or would you talk about your relationship issues in front of all these people? I have to give it up for Jordan and Nicole for coming on here and for every single guest who has the courage to come on here and ask for help. And I am honored that they come here and put their trust in me. Now, for Jordan, we can already see, we can even feel that money goes way deeper for him than numbers. And all of us are emotional about money, but his body is screaming it. I also noticed that his views on debt are really different than Nicole's.

He shrugs off debt, as he says, quote, I didn't look at it as a big problem. But Nicole sees it as a huge problem. And I can guarantee there's more to this difference than just debt alone. There's a pretty cool TikTok trend going around right now that I really love. It's called admin nights. Basically, you get your friends together, you get some snacks, maybe some drinks, and you do all the infrastructure stuff in life that most of us skip over. If you're going to set up an admin night, here's my suggestion for you.

Use Zoc Doc to book your health appointments, and you will be done fast. Zoc Dog is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have over 150,000 doctors across all 50 states in 200 plus specialties, including mental health, dental, primary care, whatever you need. Just filter for doctors based on insurance, location, ratings, even virtual care options. And Zoc Doc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. You can look through your options, book an appointment, and you are done.

If I needed to find a new doctor today, Zoc Doc is what I would use. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoch.com slash remit to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's ZOC, doc, dot com slash remit. Zokdoch.com slash remit. And I want to thank Zok doc for sponsoring this message. Just guess the average wait time to see a doctor in the United States. I'm not talking about a specialist, just a regular standard family doctor. Do you think it's a week, two weeks?

Nope. It's over 30 days. So a lot of times whatever symptoms you have are going to be gone or maybe worse by the time you get to that appointment. I don't want you to have to wait weeks to see a doctor. I want you to get seen faster by an in-network doctor using Zocdoc. Zocdog is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have over 150,000 doctors across all 50 states in 200-plus specialties, including mental health, dental, primary care, whatever you need. Just filter for doctors based on

insurance, location, ratings, even virtual care options. And Zoc Doc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. You can look through your options, book an appointment, and you are done. If I needed to find a new doctor today, Zoc Doc is what I would use. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com slash Rameet to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C.com slash Rameet. Zok-D-C-com slash Rameh. And I want to thank Zok-D-D-K-D-K for sponsoring this message. When did you first realize that you might not see money the same way? Probably towards the end of 2021 when she was getting ready to graduate and we were planning to move

to California. She wanted to buy house. I was very on the fence about it. But there was a lot of conversations. That was really the first time, I think, is when we started having the contentious conversations around money. I felt it was going to be a lot more expensive

and stressful than just continuing to rent for a year, especially since we were moving halfway across the country. I just felt like it was not a great time to be doing that. Okay. And what do you remember Nicole saying? I basically, like, remember a lot of it was like this is what she really wanted and with the money that she was going to be making,

that it was something we could afford to do. She wasn't going to, you know, asked me to, contribute to the mortgage if I didn't feel like I could reasonably to start off with. So eventually I was like, okay, this probably makes sense for the both of us, given where we are, but it wasn't something I was completely comfortable with. Can I go out on a limb here and make a wild guess? So this whole conversation about we can afford it. My guess is that neither of you ever pulled out any specific numbers about a house

and calculated actual income versus how much you could afford for total cost of ownership for a house. Wild guess. Am I right or wrong? I didn't because I wasn't ready to buy a house. What a shock. What a shot. And how about for the person who wanted to buy the house? Nicole? I did do numbers. No, really? Not as specifically as they should have. What numbers did you do? But I was thinking how much money I'd be bringing in and I was calculating the property tax I'd be paying. how much I would be paying in the interest and my mortgage.

And in the area we wanted to live for, we were looking, we were looking to rent. We were both on the same page to rent in the beginning. We thought we'd rent for a year or two to figure out where we wanted to be. And so we were looking at apartments.

And I'm looking and I'm like, oh my gosh. Like to just have what we have right now, we're going to be paying almost $4,000 a month. So keep going. I'm waiting for the final sentence here. Keep going. And then I thought we might as well buy the house. I know for me.

Thank you. Thank you. I've listened to your podcast. So that is your analysis. Those are the numbers that you, you basically said, hey, it's really expensive to rent here. Therefore, we might as well buy. I know. I know it fell into the trap.

Yes. Okay, hold on. I'm not letting you off the hook yet. Okay. We're going to get to your numbers too. I see them here. When you said, I looked at the taxes and the mortgage. That's good.

That's more than 90% of people do. How did you decide if you could afford it or not? I was thinking how much income that I would be having, how much money I would be taking home. Okay. Red flag number one is when you answer my question by saying, I was thinking. That's like, okay, all right, fine. So you were thinking, I'm going to be making a lot of money and the mortgage is less money, so therefore I can afford it.

Is that the analysis you did? I'm not quite just like that basic. I know I have a lot of student debt too. So I was accounting for my student debt payment. And I'm thinking I'm still going to have money left over way more than I have right now. So. Did you do any ratios at all? Was there a ratio, like a percentage in that analysis?

To be straightforward, I did not have a percentage. Thank you. There was not a percentage. Admitting it. Okay. Why is my greatest joy in life catching someone in this? the act of saying they bought a house by running the numbers, but then discovering they actually didn't. Like, what is wrong with me? You know some people like to do thousand piece puzzles?

Some people go and build houses. I sit here on a podcast and relish every second of finding someone in a money lie and then slow walking them to the very end of the plank where somebody like Nicole finally admits, no, I actually did not have a percentage. And the worst part of this whole thing is I have a gigantic smile on my face right now. I love my life. I actually love what just happened. And this is why I think there's something wrong with me. Anyway, let's all take a moment of silence for yet another person who listens to this podcast and subscribes to my free newsletter and does exactly the opposite of what I say. What can you do? People are people and they want to buy what they want to buy. Let's take a look at their numbers. Remember, she makes a lot of money. He's

mentioned not earning a lot, and she helped him pay off his credit card debt. Let's look at your income. I find this to be very interesting. Jordan, can you give me your gross monthly income? Yes, on average, just under $6,000. 5,800 a month, okay? And, all right, so you make about $70,000 a year. And Nicole, how about you, monthly?

Gross is $33,000. 33,000. Okay, so collectively you make $465,000. Yeah. That sounds like a little or a lot? More than I ever thought I'd ever make. Yeah. Jordan?

Definitely, definitely a lot. You ever find it interesting that there's so much stress around money and you're making almost half a million dollars in your early 30s? I guess when you put it like that, yeah. Like, I'm just reading the numbers. I mean, maybe if you guys make a million dollars, then all the problems will vanish. What do you think? No?

A lot of silence on this call. Probably. Probably not. Hmm, that's so shocking. All right. So I think that's a lot of money. That's why I'm not super concerned about the debt, nor are you, Nicole. It sounds like you're pretty savvy.

A financially savvy person goes, yeah, I have a lot of debt. Yeah, I know that. And I make a lot of money. That's how I make money because I encourage. heard that debt. Jordan, how much are you making per month if you subtract your business expenses out? Rosa would be around $3,500. So you're making $3,500.

She's making $33,000. What do you all think about that? I would like for mine to be a lot closer to hers. Okay. How are you going to do that? That's what I've been trying to figure out, I guess, is what has contributed to a lot of the stress. I totally get it. I'm just asking for your plan. Do you have a plan as to how you're going to increase 3,300 a month?

Yeah. I mean, I'm putting in more work as far as producing more content, trying to generate more leads, talk to more people in my business. You know, that would be an extra one to two clients a month. Okay, great. What's the deadline? I guess I would be realistic, say the end of 2024. That would be realistic. If I'm going to be optimistic, I'd say this year. I don't know. Just give me a deadline.

So you don't have a deadline, it sounds like. Is that fair? No, that's, no, that's fair. Do you think that this is a major source of the contention in this relationship? Nicole? I think so. I think it's not knowing when we can really start planning for kids in the future. Nicole makes $33,000 a month and he makes $3,500 a month.

So she makes about 10 times what he makes. There's a previous episode, number 65 and number 66, where Connie made $200,000 a month and Wes made $2,000 a month. She made 100x what he was making. In those episodes, I talked about, class differences and assortative mating and all kinds of subtle differences that emerge in couples like this. We already see that here.

Nicole is saying she's alarmed that Jordan didn't really consider his debt a problem. That's a different way of looking at money that goes beyond Jordan. She's also saying that indecision is a problem for her. Another typical class difference in planning. You know, socioeconomic systems in class are things we rarely talk about. And when I got my master's degree in sociology from Stanford, I never thought I would be talking with couples in this format. So if you are curious to learn about some of the class dynamics that I referred to, a great place to start is this book called The Power of the Past by Jesse Stribe.

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That's Shopify.com slash remit. What's the area of life that you want to spend more on this year. A lot of people will say health or relationships. Some people will say travel. Let's talk about food and health for just a second. For example, in my life, my wife and I both decided we're going to spend more on health. And that means having a personal trainer. It means having someone make meals tailored to our macros so that we don't have to think about it. But you don't have to pay for a private chef to do that. One great option is to make healthy eating convenient by getting meals from Factor. They take the work out of healthy, macro-dense meals so you can start eating better now.

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and qualifying auto renewal subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with Factor. the way you make decisions is what I'm trying to understand right now. And like, the fact is you were going from basically making not that much money as a student, right? Nicole, how much did you make? Negative $100,000 a year. Okay. So you took out loans. And during that time, Jordan, were you basically the financial provider? For the most part, she would pay, like, rent and a few things out of her loans.

for the most part, yes. Got it. Okay. So you took some of your loans. You used them for living expenses, Nicole. Jordan, you made up, let's say, over 50% of household expenses. Would that be fair to say? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. And so you go, hey, let's buy a place because even if it costs more, we're still going to have a ton of money relative to what we used to have, right? And we wanted to be settled. What does that mean? Jordan and I cumulatively we've moved like seven times in the past four years we've been together. Oh, that's a lot. Why?

We were living separately. So he helped me move. I helped him move. We moved into a place together. That place became too small and there was a shooting in the parking lots. We moved to another place together. And then we moved to California together. So we had a lot of moves. That's a lot of moves. I feel you on that. And so just, to clarify, in your mind, being settled means what? It means that we're not moving. It means that my family is here in California. We bought a house here.

We are staying here. There's no potential for us to pick up and move to anywhere else. We are here in California. Once we were like here and had the house and like I feel like at that point I was at peace with it. Nicole, was your experience basically the same? You felt good. You feel good now with the house? Yes.

Great. Okay. Good, good. All right. So you're in the house. This is the house that I'm currently seeing you in right now, right? Mm-hmm. Okay, great.

So you're in the house. And what started happening from when you moved in until now as it relates to money? I think at one point I introduced her to your book and your podcast. My man. First of all, what did you say it? You know, I wish I could be in all these rooms listening, but what did you say to her? I don't know if she. saw it this way or not, but that was like one of my first attempts to be like, hey, I know this is

important to you. Now, here's maybe some way we can get into it more together. Wow. Wow. And how did you receive that when he brought up my book, Nicole? Well, the book was like long before the podcast. That was when we were moving and we were sorting through things to get rid of. And the book was your book was one of things that got to say. That wasn't the key file. Yes. All right. I made it. Okay. And so what was that like when you heard him say? We're giving away all these Robert Kiyosaki scam books and we're going to keep, I will teach you to be rich. What did that feel like to you when you heard him talk about a money book? That was, we weren't even really in the money conversations. It was the podcast. It was the podcast that started the convos. We had,

we were in the car to on our way for a road trip and Jordan just put the podcast on. And I, I know what that meant. Like, I knew that that was what Jordan was trying to communicate was this is my attempt to speak about finances because we were in a little bit of a tip at the start of that road trip those couple days before we had had a conversation about money. And so he turned that on and we just listened to it. It was a four-hour ride and we listened to like for the podcast. That's awesome.

I love hearing that. And when he made that gesture of turning on the podcast, what did you feel? How did you receive that? I love that. The first one we listened to was the one about the couple who the woman made, like, she made like, I don't know, 10 times more income than the guy. Yeah, 100 times more. 100 times more. It was a crazy amount.

And I was like, oh my gosh, like, wait, they're talking about gender roles. They're talking about all these things that we feel. And it was really nice to learn more about that. We both like to learn about human psychology. That was very interesting to listen to. Connie and Wes, thank you for coming on this show on episode 66 and 67 to share your story. And to every guest for coming on here and sharing your story, there are so many people who see themselves in you.

And it makes me so happy to hear that Jordan was actually the one to bring up money with Nicole. That means a lot to me. And I think it means even more to Nicole. Sometimes one partner just wants the other to be proactive with money and to show some interest. And this is a great example of doing exactly that. A lot of people I know, including me, are drinking less alcohol these days. One of a friend stopped completely. He said it feels amazing. But he's got a little trick.

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So you start listening to the podcast in the book and what happens? Is it all, you know, you live happily ever after or what? We've been, go ahead, Jordan. I was going to say, well, no, because we're having this conversation. but I would say I don't think the contentious conversations

didn't stop but I feel like we have had more conversations more activities like we're going through the journal together so there is more more activity

in this area I guess and out of curiosity what is your rich life? If I had to keeping it short, if I had to sum my rich life up in one sentence, it would be to not have to not have to make decisions based solely on money.

Okay. Okay, cool. Nicole, what about you? I want to have more freedom with my time. And when we have kids, I want to be 50% nurtured to my children. and a 50% provider. Great. Crisp.

Sounds like you've both thought about it. Okay. All right. That sounds good. What do you wish that your partner understood about the way that you see money? I'd like to start with Nicole first. I wish that, well. Can you tell him?

I wish you knew how frugal I was with money in the way that when when I see you spend money differently than me, I don't tell you, but it's, sometimes it's like in my gut. I'm like, oh my gosh, I wouldn't spend money like that. What if we did this instead? And I, I just don't know how to communicate that to him without feeling like I'm treating him like a kid or being overbearing or saying that I'm restricting him on on things. And I keep that hidden from you because I don't want to like really restrict how you spend and maybe you feel that off of me anyways. But I grew up very frugal and especially the student for 11 years. I'm very frugal. So it's like hard for me to to spend money on certain

things that I just haven't spent money on before. Okay. All right. Thank you. And Jordan, what do you wish that Nicole understood about the way that you see money? Tell her. I wish that you understood that, sorry. It's okay. Take your time. I wish that you understood that I want to see, that it's my goal to see money as something that we can celebrate and enjoy. but it's hard for me to get to that point because of how much it stresses me out. Can I ask a question?

So, Nicole, you said, I wish you understood how frugal I really am. And Jordan, you said, I wish you understood that I want to get better with money, but I'm stressed out by it. Now, I'd like you to zoom out for a second. Do you think if your partner truly understood that thing about you, that it would change anything. Nicole? Say it out loud.

You're shaking your head. Because he already knows that. He already knows that. And do you know that he's stressed out by money? Oh, yes. So what are we dancing around here for? It's like I, it would be like me going to my wife and saying,

I deeply wish that you understood that my hair is black. It's like, we all know. Everybody knows everything you both said. So here you are, in a sentence, how would you describe the primary problem that you believe you're facing? I'm really worried for the future when we have children that I'm not going to be able to take time off,

that I'm going to be still working the amount that I'm working when I really only want to be working two to three days a week when we have kids. And I don't know that. We can actually afford the things that we want if I'm only working two to three days with a lower income. Jordan, what would you say in a sentence? I would say that I am worried that she's not going to be able to do that or she's going to do that and we're going to have to significantly cut back on expenses or find a cheaper place to live or something like that.

Okay, so if I'm hearing you correctly, do you both think that the primary problem here is a numbers problem? I guess I do, from my perspective, from my standpoint. Okay, Nicole? I think it's, I think underlying the numbers is, is Jordan's business income and the stress he feels with that income being like. lower than he wants it to be. So it's an income problem. Yeah. Okay.

Let me read what you wrote in your application to me, Nicole. Gosh. Can I read from this? You can read from it. You wrote, we recently had an argument that escalated our previous conversations from, quote, are we financially ready to be engaged to, quote, this man needs to pack his bags? How are we going to make big purchases together when his credit score shuts it down? I'm now angry, upset, frustrated that I didn't find out our huge financial differences

four years ago. Am I overreacting or is it time to find a partner who matches me financially? Oh, gosh. I'm sorry. I was in an angry place and I hate just hearing those words. I don't mean that to Jordan. I was just an angry place. Should I continue or not?

It's totally. I don't even want Jordan to hear. I feel like that's not honest. I don't want Jordan to hear that. Okay, then talk to me and talk to Jordan. let's be honest with where you are today. When you wrote that, that is, and there is more that I was about to read,

that is not the tenor of what you two are telling me today. The way you're talking about is if it's some income problem in this spreadsheet. I was very angry after the credit card debt conversation. I wasn't right after the credit card debt conversation when I paid off $30,000, and I felt like, Jordan didn't care.

That's different than Jordan should be making an extra $1,000 a month or something. Yeah. I can help in whatever way is helpful, but I need you to be honest with what is the real problem here. Nicole, you filled out the application. I'd like to ask you, and I really want you to try to tap into what is really going on here.

I feel like I'm going to be the 100% sole provider. and that is never what I've ever wanted. Okay. Keep going. My mom was a stay-home mom. My dad provided everything. I don't want that either. I didn't have a relationship with my dad as closely as I did with my mom.

I want our kids to have an equal relationship with Jordan as they do with me. But I don't want to be 100% provider. And are you worried that you will be? I am very worried that I will be. Are you 100% provider right now? No. So what makes you worry about being the 100% provider? At the end of the month, we are in a positive.

Together as a team, we are a positive, but the credit card debt, I'm scared that's going to come back. And I'm scared that I'm going to be paying that again. in the future. Jordan has paid for over half of the finances for many years while you were a student. So I'm a little confused where this fear is coming from. I realized when I found out of the credit card debt that a lot of that finances that he's been contributing was going on a credit card and I didn't know about that.

Okay. So that worries you? That worries me. If I had known that he was contributing with credit card payments, I would have contributed, we would have been more 50-50. I wouldn't have had him contribute more than 50. I wouldn't have had him pay for our dinners when we went out. I wouldn't have had him pay for the groceries. I would have contributed equally to groceries. I would have contributed equally to going out. I, in my mind, I thought we were safe with finances that he could afford to do that for us. And so I felt

like he was providing. And then when I realized that it was going on a credit card, I was like, Oh, it was, it's not really, it's not really contributing financially. And I don't want to be doing everything. I want a teammate. Jordan, what do you think from all the things that you just heard from Nicole? That's a lot to me second year. Can I go hug, Jordan? Of course.

Thank you for asking to do that. I'm really glad you did. Can you tell me why you wanted to give Jordan a hug right now? I regret saying those words that you read out loud. I just, I'm surprised that I said it so mean. I just, I was in a very angry place. Was it honest when you wrote it? I think in a better mindset, I think those are the issues that I, I,

I do still battle with is that the partner you choose for life is the biggest decision you have to make in life. And the biggest decision you make for your financial future as well. And if we are so different with our finances, if we think so differently, then am I making the best decision for myself long term? am I making the best decision? I can't go confidently with us being together in the future

if I'm going to be 100% responsible for any of our financial future. Nicole is right that the partner you choose is one of the most important decisions you make in your life. I find it kind of striking

that they both confidently told me this was an income problem and expenses problem until I pulled out Nicole's own application and started to read it back to her. That's when we started to get real. In the second part of this episode coming next week,

I'll continue my conversation with them and I'll try to give them what they actually need. I'll see you next week. In the meantime, you can find me on YouTube. You can subscribe to my money coaching program at IWT.com slash money coaching, and you can go into Netflix and set a reminder for the new show.

Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read, I Will Teach You to Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.