Mysterious Universe - 35.17 - MU Podcast - Where Science Meets Spirit

Episode Date: May 1, 2026

This week we’re continuing down the Sheldrake path with The Physics of Angels by Matthew Fox and Rupert Sheldrake, where a theologian and a scientist try to make sense of angels in a modern context. Pulling from figures like Aquinas and Hildegard, we explore whether these “beings” might actually point to forms of intelligence or organization we still don’t fully understand. Whether you buy it or not, it’s a solid look at how our view of reality might be a lot more limited than we think. Welcome to this banger Plus+ Extension! The long awaited uber saga that is From the Mundane to the Magnificent is at hand! This remarkably fun story is very much an epic tale loaded with insights that will take your mind off of the nonsense found littered about this so called “reality”. Part one offers us instructions for leaving the restrictive body for astral exploration, a new look at the Earth and solar system only to bring it all home by shrinking to the size of an atom, and stopping to have a chin wag with a cell offering their interpretation of life from their perspective. Thank you for being on Plus+ with us! Sit back and enjoy a fresh perspective that could change everything about your Youniverse and unlock hidden potential within yourcelf.  The Physics of Angels: Exploring the Realm Where Science and Spirit Meet   From the Mundane to the Magnificent - Vera Stanley Alder LinksPlus+ ExtensionThe extension of the show is EXCLUSIVE to Plus+ Members. To join. click HERE.Links Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Getting right along in this season until our break in July, our first official vacation. I'm Joe Hodgian joining me, as always, is Brandon Thomas. My man, how going? I'm pumped for this. Hell yeah. How was your week? It was tremendous, honestly. Outstanding, even.

We got the books in from the guys at there. Mary and I went through him. Took about four hours probably to unboxo this thing, just because of all the excitement and everything. So many. It's so many and it's so cool. I've worked them in and now devising a way to sort of categorize this stuff. Like I need to know how many, number one, Brad Stagger books wrote, how many books Bradstager wrote.

And then also how many of those books I've got? Because I have to have unboxed 60 Brad Stiger books at some point. They just kept coming out. It was insane. So it's an amazing gift, honestly. It's just such an honor. It's got all their tabs in it. Like you were finding in yours as well, just all the little notes and things that they've made.

And some of the coolest titles from authors, I'd either hadn't written and even knew that they'd written that book or a couple of them. I was like, oh, man, I've been wanting this book. And then boom, there it is. Only a handful of doubles, which are coming your way, buddy. But other than that, it's just been awesome, honestly, going through it. It's just overwhelming. I have my first, the show today is actually the first, well, not the first, but the first one from the boys that I actually have hard copy of. So that's what I'll be doing today.

That is awesome. It doesn't smell like a used bookstore in your room right now in your studio? Oh yeah, no, it smells like, you know, back of like the 90s, like an old library of just dusty books and shit. It's so cool. It's so cool. Australian Farts. Yeah. But if you were on, plus, I might have mentioned it, but I just got back from a quick jaunt over the East Coast, a sister-in-law's wedding. So it's been a whirlwind of a couple days here, but I'm glad to be back in the saddle. It's nice to be home. Even after taking a nice semi-relaxing vacation, it's always good to come home. Yeah, yeah, something about it.

But yes, today we are covering the physics of angels by Michael Fox and Rupert Sheldrake put out in 1996. I think I have the 2014 reprint, actually, but it was a good shelf elf moment. I was just taking a gander through my new library, and this one popped out, and I'm like, oh, well, we'll carry on with the Sheldrake theme then. And I know he's a bit, I don't want to say really, like, controversial. Just, you know, people look at him kind of oddly because he likes to look into the weird stuff. And I mean, he's a, he's a scientist. So you got to believe him. Right.

And yeah, I did want to kind of, I feel like I have to put this out there every once in a while. But just because we cover some of this stuff does not mean we're completely bought into it by any means. What's looking at every possibility open-mindedly with skepticism. That's what we do here. It's, hey, if you ever heard of this idea, no reason to get your panties in a wad about it. Just, yeah. Well, you welcome. Wad them up. You know what I like about it is we're passionate, Joe, about creative ideas and philosophies, and that can be confused as certainty on a few things.

Now, what's great is we are certain about our curiosity, my friend, and that is absolutely true. And so we explore these topics to the depths. We give shit where shit is given, and we enjoy the thought experiments where we do that. And that's the beauty of this ride. And we're having a blast with it, man. I absolutely love it. I like looking at all the different puzzle pieces and seeing which ones maybe fit. and which ones maybe don't. Yeah. But how are you going to know unless you check it out first? That's right. But yeah, if you listen to the last show, I think it was a plus show. Was it not?

Yes. Yeah, that I covered the last Sheldrick book. But if you're not familiar with him, he's kind of the guy that coined the morphic resonance idea and a lot of this like evolving nature of reality and that kind of stuff. So we're going to go into a little bit more of that today. but on the mythological or maybe theological views of angels mixed with Sheldrake's more scientific and grounded approach, you know, depending on how you look at it. Michael Fox is, or Matthew Fox, sorry, is kind of a theological guy. And this whole book is kind of almost a transcript of a back and forth between the two.

And they go from, you know, like the history, the myths of angels. and they kind of bounce off each other about, you know, how that could fit scientifically or is it just, you know, old mythologies. But we'll get into it. Yeah, how to interpret scientifically what people are saying that they're seeing and perceiving, we're what people write about and say that exist and are perceivable. Very cool. Right. And that's why it popped out to me is because that's kind of what we do a lot here is we try to bridge the gap between maybe myth and science or, you know, even spirituality and modern thought on.

these things. So this is a great, it gives you an idea of what can happen when two people with maybe not opposing views, but definitely different views, sit down and have a nice friendly talk about it instead of calling names and logging off of Facebook. You know, everybody knows that guy. Yeah. And you know, and that die hard, the hills folks die on encamps, that no man's land is kind of where we exist. But that's the point is that the encampments are belief systems that then have structure and then you've got to subscribe to all those and even if they differ or disagree a little bit I mean like we've talked about look how many different versions of Christianity there are there thousands and so if you think about that no one religion has it right why would one science perspective

have it right especially these things that are so questionable and built on such questionable foundations it's it's a great way to re-examine things and the abandonment of camps is where that begins I think right instead of you know I'm going to die on this hill maybe just go check out another hill and see if that one's better. Check out another hill. Yeah, there's some cool hills out there. So the whole setup of this book is already kind of funny because you've got, you know, Sheldrake who's been, you know, maybe poking at mainstream science for years. And then you got Matthew Fox, who's just basically a theologian that never really

fit neatly into the church box at least. And instead of them putting out this super polished academic thing, they're just sitting down and talking. And that's literally what this is. It's just this ongoing conversation where they're trying to feel. figure out if these old ideas about angels might actually still have some relevance. And they start from this place that's actually pretty grounded that angels used to be a normal part of how people understood reality, not in this like a, you know, a Hallmark greeting card type of thing or, I don't know, a Christmas decoration. But this is how the universe is

structured kind of way, like how, you know, ancient people kind of thought about it. But back in the early Christian and medieval world, angels weren't even optional. They weren't just decorations. They They were built into the architecture of that time period's cosmos, kind of. If you're talking about how the universe worked, angels weren't part of that conversation the same way gravity or motion would be today. And somewhere along the line that just stopped. And they spent a good chunk of time pointing to the scientific revolution as the turning point of that.

And once the universe got reimagined as this mechanistic machine, we've talked about that as well. Yeah. You know, just something of made up of dead matter following these fixed laws. And we got into that in the last show, too. But there wasn't any room left for beings that had intention or intelligence, but didn't have bodies. So angels didn't really get disproven. They were just kind of squeezed out of the conversation. No, no room for them in the modern model, you know. Yeah, get out of here, you. You antiquated notions, angels. Flap on. And around the same time, though theology didn't exactly fight to keep them around. It's like both sides quietly agreed to stop bringing it up because it felt embarrassing almost. Science moved on to, you know, math and equations. Religion turned more inward into these personal beliefs. And angels got kind of put in this weird limbo where they were still technically part of tradition, but no, at least nobody serious wanted to touch on it. And meanwhile, though, regular people, you know, the plebs, us, us lower downs. never really let go of that idea of angels.

And they mentioned a survey showing a pretty big chunk of people still believe in angels to this day, at least back when the book came out. Yeah. And a surprising number of claim they've actually felt or experienced something like that firsthand. So you've got this situation where official institutions put the idea away, but culturally it didn't really die off. And that's where these two kind of step in. Their whole angle is basically maybe the problem isn't the idea of angels. it's the way we've been looking at it, you know, to judge the whole idea of it. So cool.

Cycle sync, just real quick, as a plug for the extension, we were finally going to get into from the mundane to the magnificent by Vera Stanley Alder. Very excited. It's an epic guy. So saddle up, it's definitely one you're going to want to check out. But same to your perspective. This is what it talks about in there, man, is seeing the unseen forces that are working behind everything. Look at the dovetail.

But also there's a guide that comes in and gives her a vision. He basically puts his hand over her eyes and then she sees through his hand and sees a new world. Like what a cool perspective. But when he does that, what happens is the filter of a specific vision is removed and another one is offered. Everything's happening at once. But you remove the physical limitations and you see the etheric or the oric or something which are separate and they talk about it. But you see these different entities. They're elementals.

They're divas. They're devas, right? These spirits, nature spirits, angels. It's all in there, man. They might be diva devas too. Absolutely. You know they are. Well, that's awesome. Yeah, I totally forgot to ask what you got coming up in Plus. Well, but that's it's perfect. It works in organically.

So guys, check out Plus and the links down there. You can check out all the cool stuff that we're doing. And absolutely this Habits of the Universe that you covered before. That was in a Plus show. But yeah, we're going to go deep into it. But it absolutely dovetails, of course, with what you're working on. Yes, sir. Very cool.

So, yeah, if you're, they kind of go over if you're working with this purely mechanical universe, the nuts and bolts we talk about, the three, I guess. Angels sound completely ridiculous. But if the universe is something more like a living breathing system, something that's always evolving and full of all these patterns, then maybe even some form of distributed intelligence, then the idea of NHIs or non-human intelligence doesn't automatically sound insane. And this is where Sheldrick starts bringing in his usual, you know, bag of tools. He talks about how modern science has already started moving away from that rigid machine model instead of everything being fixed and predictable, you've got quantum uncertainty, chaos theory,

all these kind of newer theories that have come around. And of course, his whole morphic field concept. So instead of a universe that's just a bunch of particles bouncing around, you start getting something that looks more like layers of organization stacked up on top of each other. And we talk about this all the time. Cells inside tissues, tissues inside organs, organisms, ecosystems, ecosystems, planets, and it just scales all the way up. And at each level, there's this suggestion at least that the whole has some kind of organizing principle that isn't just reducible

to the parts. And this is the turtles all the way down. Again, it feels like we beat a dead horse, but everything kind of comes back to that. And in the extension, we're going to go, we're learning how to get out of our body. We're going to go see the solar system. And then we're also going to shrink way, way, way down, magic school bus style and go inside of a guy and talk to

his cells. And so again, exactly what you're talking about. And it is freaking turtles all the way to, it's fractal. This is the whole point of the work, is that it's, it's, it's So perfectly Todd Anjo. Very cool. Yeah. And if you were able to get down and talk to a cell, you would seem like some kind of ethereal or angel or God or something to the cells because they have no idea how to even perceive you, really.

It's so interesting because she asked their perspectives. And the dude, interprets for her. And yes, we're going to go over it. But dude, it's so interesting. Yeah. Nice. Looking forward to that. But that's where he starts kind of bringing up the idea that what if those organizing principles, the things hold.

holding systems together in guiding the patterns and all this stuff. What if they're closer to what older traditions we're calling angels? Not little winged, flappy things, you know, floating around, but more like intelligences tied to the systems. Of course, Matthew Fox, on the other hand, comes at it from a more historical and spiritual side. And he's basically saying that if you actually go back and read people like Thomas Aquinas, I think it's Aquinas, Hildegard, or Hildegard, they weren't talking about cute little fat cherubs. They're talking about beings that operate through understanding and intuition. They're tied to the cosmic processes and they play roles in things like inspiration and creativity. What is that thing that a lot of musicians, you know, they basically, yeah, that's my girl. Yeah, I hang out with her all the time. I credit her with some of the coolest songs that have ever come out of my physical vessel, but I don't feel like I created them. I feel like it was a gift from the muse. That's so common, especially in music where Yes.

Everybody from Mick Jagger to, you know, a lot of other rock stars and stuff will say they woke up in the middle of the night and just scribbled down the lyrics and hummed the tune. And then you have a hit that we listen to to this day. And one of my favorites is a quote from Michael Jackson's bodyguard. He woke up at like three in the morning and he said, we have to go to the studio right now. And he was like, what do you mean? And he was like, well, I got these four songs. And if I don't record him right now, Prince Will by in the morning. So it's this idea of 100th monkey as well.

Once you have an idea, if you're not doing anything with it, the muse will give it to somebody else who will. Yeah. It's very interesting. You're tapping you on the shoulder. Hey, this one's for you, buddy. Do something with it. I respect and play this game for sure. Absolutely.

There's also this interesting little thread where they talk about intuition. In the older traditions, angels don't learn the way humans do. They just know things directly. There's no step-by-step reasoning or trial and error. And the idea is that when humans tap into intuition, like this real sudden insight, like we just mentioned, that might be brushing up against something, or brushing up against that same kind of process, not presented as fact, just that's how tradition describes it. And then they start tying all of this back to cosmology, which is really where the book gets its foundational footing. Because one of their main arguments is that angels were never just about religion. They were about how people understood the universe itself.

the stars planet's the whole structure of whatever we call this place we're in and back then when people looked at the sky they didn't see empty space they saw something alive and patterned and full of meaning and now you fast forward to modern times and we're looking at the same sky through telescopes and equations and it's mostly described as cold empty mechanical same stars but totally different way to look at it yeah um that you're on a shitty part of just a not even cool galaxy you know yeah we're just a speck floating not even in a cool

part of it. And the bigger question there, they kind of slowly work toward is whether these older ideas, you know, once you get rid of the imagery and the religious language, might actually be describing something real in a way we just don't really have the vocabulary for anymore. And that's why a lot of these things sounded so, the ancient mythology sounded so fantastical is because of the language. And they were just describing it the way they could, the way they thought of it. It's almost a couple of things, right? It's did, was the realm the same? which you and I agree with probably was not and folks were probably not perceiving things the same absolutely not as influenced and EMF bombarded and all that

kind of shit right so perhaps there was this not only understanding but connection you know because if you look at old maps they have fucking centaurs and shit running around on them and uh son of syphaly guys like st. Christopher like a dude with the doghead and this is just yeah they were running around here but also the inner workings the fairies the phase the things the Davis that we're going to talk about in the after nooms exactly gnomes these these these little spirits that run shit, man. And there was an acknowledgement of that, it seems.

And this is sort of what they're pointing out there. And so it's a cool conversation to have with the scientists and someone pointing out this because he's speaking of it from intelligence, yes, but also Faye and Ferry. Where is the separation guys? You know, because if it is an intelligence, why couldn't you just blend the two and see that they're the same thing? This is the invisible ships, man. And this is what Vera talks about.

You've got to see it with certain sight. And if you don't acknowledge its existence in the first place, you'll never see the ships that are making the waves in the water. You've got to first acknowledge that something like that's even possible and stare at it for a little bit, and then maybe you can see it. Yeah. It's really interesting. That's where you get the scientific method. You start observing and then trying to replicate and coming up with ideas. Oh, that one doesn't work.

Let's observe and try to replicate again. Like you said, maybe folks just saw this. They saw that Dave is working and the little fairies carrying the sunlight down to color. You know, because she's talking about moving colors around and that even those are entities themselves. Oh, wow. Yeah, it gets deep, man. It's so cool.

So now that they've kind of opened up with, oh, maybe we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, this is where they start getting into the older stuff, starting with Dionysius, the Eropag. I looked up how to pronounce this. Ariopa guide. Ereopagite. Did you type it out phonetically how you would then say it on the show? No, I just spelled it out correctly. I thought I'd remember.

See, but I still do that. I listen to it. I type it out phonetically. Still, you offer me. Yes, I still need notes. Yeah. And obviously not to be confused with Dionysus, the Greek god of fertility and drinks, I think, or something like that. But this was an Athenian judge at the Areopagus court in Athens who lived in the first century.

And he was a convert to Christianity. And he's a saint in like multiple denominations. I'd never heard of a guy before. but maybe I've heard some of his quotes. No, I was thinking Dionysius, the first one, the god of drinks and shit in good times. Yeah, no, this is Dionysius or Dionysius, a judge, Judgeio Dionysus.

One extra syllable in there. So right away, when they start bringing people like this up, then the scale kind of opens up a bit. And when this guy, our homie here, Dionysius, talks about angels, he's not talking about a handful of beings hanging out in the clouds. He's talking about numbers that break your brain. Thousands upon thousands multiply it out to the point where human counting just doesn't even matter anymore. And the point of it isn't the exact number.

It's just that whatever this is, it's vast, way beyond anything we normally picture. And Sheldrake kind of latches onto that and translates it into modern terms. If you think about how many stars there are, how many galaxies, how many layers of structure that exist in this universe, suddenly countless. doesn't sound poetic or anything. It just sounds accurate. Yeah, yeah. So instead of thinking of angels as rare or special case beings, the older view is more like they're everywhere.

They're baked into every level of reality. And that's when it kind of made me think about plasma again. Yes, and then think, and we're going to get to it, but think about if these beings exist, who's to say that they're limited at the scale in which they operate? So let's say that there's a star one minute, but really it's not that huge and it's kind of not that far away. And then they show up and they show up in a form, perhaps, that humans can interact with.

If you don't go with the wheels on wheels with eyes and shit everywhere, then you go with maybe a normal humanoid type form that it projects to the dude or whoever. Then you've got these stories that then build up. But again, we're talking scale. That's one of them that decided to go either up or down to your scale, talk to you for a minute, and then yeat out and go back to his own little world. It's the equivalent of you shrinking down, talking to a microbe for a minute, and then going back and trying to explain the population of Earth to microbes. Yep. And we'll actually get into a little bit of that here coming up. The idea that angels teleport, basically. Okay. See, well, right. And then to think that there's only the handful of them, right, Archangel Michael and just the few of the gang there, maybe those are more Tulpas or Egregor's. Maybe those aren't the, you know, just one that got pretty popular.

You know, he's like the Zach Morris of the angel world, just saving by the bell all these folks. Oh, yeah. And this is kind of where they bring in hierarchy, too. And that's been, the idea of hierarchy itself has been controversial in the past. But this dude Dionysius basically helped formalize it. And it's not that hierarchy in a, you know, I don't know, corporate ladder sense. It's more like these stacked layers of organization and each level connects to what's above and what's below it. So you have this cascading structure. Again, the turtles all the way down. You get higher levels close. to whatever you'd call the source or divine or God, the lower levels closer to the physical world and everything in between acting as a bridge or a connector to the everything else. And every layer isn't just sitting around there either. It's they're active. They all pass along influence and understanding or whatever you want to call it. And a fox latches onto this and pointing out that for Dionysius, hierarchy wasn't about

control. It was about participation. Everything is trying in its own way to align with something high. or more unified. And yet that sounds theological, but Sheldrake basically kind of rewords it in his own language. Instead of saying hierarchies of angels, he starts talking about levels of organization in nature, these nested systems, the Russian doll thing. Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, again, we go back to atoms forming molecules, molecules to cells, cells to organisms, and then it goes out from there all the way to planetary systems and just keeps going, possibly forever. Yeah, yeah. And it's just as far as we can, you know, proceed, though. And you're possibly just an atom or a molecule of some large entities, a follicle on one of its hairs on its butt. Yeah. And even that is an atom of a larger entity that's a molecule of something else.

Right. It's insane. It seems, yes, that there are sort of these microscopic worlds that exist and then a space between that's sort of like this vastness, but that's a scale differential, not necessarily a distance differential. The distance is in your size. Again, we're going to get to it. It's fucking trippy, man. And how it goes along with, you know, the smaller you are, the different time dilations you get. Now you get into time dilation.

Correct. Yes, exactly. This is why time doesn't matter at a certain level. Right. Right. So at each level, there's the sense that the whole system behaves in a way that isn't just the sum of its parts. There's this organizing influence holding it all together like a glue. Mm-hmm.

And so, again, they're not really saying this is literally angels, but they're drawing a pretty clear parallel. What if Dionysius called angels, what of what Dionysius called angels are what we might now describe as organizing principles or intelligence is tied to these levels. And another thing Dionysius brought up is light and not in this metaphorical, fluffy love and light sense, but as something fundamental to reality. And for him, everything flows from this kind of divine light in each level of reality receives and passes it on in different ways. And of course, comes in with the mystical side of that, visions and illumination, all that stuff. But Sheldrake, again, tries to ground it a bit, connecting it to how modern physics treats light

as something pretty foundational, not just something we see, but something that actually carries energy and information. And when older texts talk about angels as beings of light, they're not necessarily just being fluffy and poetic. They might be pointing at something more basic about how reality is actually structured. There's also this idea that angels are tied to knowledge, but not in the way humans usually think about it. They're not figuring out things step by step. They're not experimenting and testing. They're

basically not doing science. According to the tradition, they just know. It's direct instant knowing. And that sounds weird until you compare it to moments of human intuition like you brought up earlier. Yeah. Visit BetMDM casino and check out

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. But is there sort of a trust-but-verify system to that? Because even with human intuition, there's a validation to it. There's a, oh yeah, I was correct about that. Do angels get that or need that? or they just 100% right all the time so their batting average is just the hard-deck confidence that they just can't be stopped?

I don't know because maybe from our view they do, but maybe they're unsure as anybody else. But we wouldn't have any way of knowing that because we're a different layer or something. Or it's giving more responsibility to simply a mechanism. Like angels perhaps, this ideal of, also angel and angel, angle, you know, the word angle, right?

You get into the math of all of this shit. You start looking that the realms divide into 33 different sections, right, angles. And then you have the 33 angle part of things, which that's very interesting. Guy Tyler Hansen talks about that he's noticed that a bunch of meteorites all come down at 33 degree angles, and he doesn't necessarily subscribe to that space is a thing. So in that way, it would be angels to them. And then they've talked about the craters here, that they're really fallen angels. You have the Mount Heron thing?

Is that where they all went to hang out? And full man? Sounds about right. And then they found that many craters on land and then, or several craters on land and then the total of the amount that they needed to underwater and all this kind of stuff. So the craters have been found adding up to these angels or these things that came in at an angle from the heavens. All of this kind of stuff. But then you look at angels in the light sense that there are refractions of angles of light. So they govern a function of reality.

And to anthropomorphize an entity there, perhaps an entity is running it. But again, maybe that's the space in between. They have their own motives, but it's based on their purpose. Yeah. And again, that's just another way they were describing it. But we put it into, oh, it was literal Nephilim or angels falling from actual heaven where God is and, you know, crashing down onto Earth. And that could be looked at a bunch of different ways. And that they just can't.

It's angels. I don't know. And Rick and Morty, when he makes the, he goes into his car back. because they stopped making the thing because another guy figured out that he could make the car battery subuniverse, right? And then it goes inside and he was like, oh, I'm your God, all this. It's an interesting thing to think of the simplification, too, the Rasmintas we put on this stuff when really it's probably maybe much more simple. It's just in really challenging terms from our perspective. Vocabulary just complicates everything. Right. But I don't disagree with you that the as above, so below motives exist as well, because as we again are going to talk about, I've never been more excited to get to a plus extension, honestly. As we're going to talk about, she talks to cells and they fight for resources. If there's not enough resources there, then they become scarcity mindset and get violent and things like this.

Do angels do the same? Yeah. And how would we know? They just pop out of nowhere and say, be not afraid. It's like, well, I'm very afraid. Like I'm fucking terrified, dude. And first of all, I'm only getting your side of things. You know, what if you're the dude that got booted for being a dickhead for skull fucking a bunch of people without their consent?

Yeah. And if they can appear in any way they want, then, hmm. Yeah. All this kind of ties back into the bigger picture that they're building towards a universe that isn't just made of stuff, but organized at multiple levels, possibly with different kinds of intelligences or awareness associated with each level. So the first kind of section of the book is, hey, maybe angels weren't as silly as we've been told. Part two is more like, okay, if you actually take this seriously, you're talking about something woven into the entire structure of reality from top to bottom, if there is a top and bottom. Oh, deep. But not separate from the universe, but part of how the universe, you know, goes about. Yeah, right. It's functions at the level.

Yeah. Yeah. So once they get past the Dionysius thing and that big layered cosmic structure, then they start talking about Thomas Aquinas or Aquinas, Aquinas. How would you say Thomas Aquinas? I would have said it the three ways you did and just asked you. Yeah. All right.

Shit. I'm sure we'll hear about the correct way to say that. And this is where it gets a tad more technical, but in, of course, an interesting way. Aquinas wasn't just sitting around having visions or writing poetry. He was trying to systematically figure this stuff out. Like, if angels exist, what are they actually made of and how do they think and how they move? How do they interact with reality if they're these ethereal type of beings? Start want to quantify it.

Yeah. And Aquinas kind of treated it as a physics problem just using these old medieval tools. one of the first things he laches onto is this idea that angels don't have bodies. So if they don't have mass or physical form and nothing you could point to and say it's right there, that's what it is. So that already puts them in a completely different category than anything we normally deal with. But that raises a problem. If something doesn't have a body, then how does it exist in space at all? How does it go from one place to another?

And he actually tries to answer that. His take is that angels don't move through space the way we do. They don't travel, I don't know, point A to point B step by step. They're just present where they act. So if an angel is doing something over here, that's where it is. If it acts somewhere else, now it's there. There's no in-between journey like we'd think of. Right.

And you hear about this in biolocation. Yes, yeah. About that saint. Who was it? No, the nun who was bi-locating? Tons of people saw it. I don't remember her name. I remember that story, though.

We can run over it. But then Sheldrake jumps in here and goes, wait a minute, hold on. that actually sounds kind of familiar because when you look at how modern physics describes certain things, especially light, you start running into similar weirdness. Photons don't behave like little billiard balls just bouncing around through space in this clean, continuous way. They show up, interact, and from their own, I don't know, point of view, if you can even say that, there's no time passing during the movement. So again, they're not saying angels are photons. They're just showing that Aquinas was already, you know, tackling with the same kind of problem. How does something that isn't a physical object still have effects in the physical world?

Did they not have polter guys and shit back in those days? I don't know. Where things were stacking clay pots and chairs and donkeys in the stables? Maybe they'd call it something different. I did read some of the talk about, you know, how light behaves and how it, there's no time for, if you were going at the speed of light, there's really no time. It's like you're outside of time because you just, you're here one minute. And then, I don't know, millions of years later, you're just here. But there's no time passage for you if you were able to go that fast.

Yeah, because you're kind of moving at the rate at which time is measured, which is weird. Right. It's hard to wrap your head around not being able to perceive time. And this is where, though, it gets to the idea UFOs have been touted to be able to do this, right? They don't go from place to place. They bend space around them and they pull space to them. So basically it's the ultimate bringing the mountain to Mohammed. They sit there. They focus on a destination.

and then all of a sudden they're in the destination. They've pulled it to themselves. Rather than be a bee flying out to pollinate, they're the flower that attracts the destination, the bees or whatever. It's really interesting. Pulled instead of pushed or something like that. Right. Yeah. It's like, again,

an inverse way of thinking about it, but if you're thinking about it from the way that we've been trained to think about it from science or the dollar sign that you've got to traverse these distances, therefore it's going to take X amount of fuel and you can only go so fast and you only live so long and there's so much money, you know, because we have economy and shit. And if you get bogged down in the limitations of that minutia, then perhaps you don't even think of a concept such as, well, what if I just grab that thing and pulled it to me rather than me go to it? Right.

Yeah, it's the living in the material world. We're kind of bound to it as far as we know. Well, the material girls are getting new perspectives all the time. Oh, yeah. Great song. Yep. Sometimes. Another thing Aquinas gets into is how angels know things.

This is where it really separates from human thinking. because humans learn step by step, and he's kind of tying it into how they move, too. Humans gather information, we compare, make mistakes, we revise. It's a whole process. Angels, according to Aquinas, don't do any of that. They're created with their knowledge already in place. They just have it.

Not infinite knowledge, but complete knowledge of whatever their domain is. So instead of learning over time, their understanding is just immediate, no reasoning chain, no back and forth, which is why earlier they were talking about, intuition because that's the closest human experience that even kind of resembles this. You ever have one of those moments where the answer just lands all at once fully formed? Yeah?

Yeah. That's the comparison they're making. I've definitely done that too where I didn't even have to think about it. Like my wife will ask me a question, some obscure question. And I am loaded with pointless information. Sure. Maybe I'm just, my random access memory pulled it out. But I just know something all of a sudden.

Then I'm like, how did I even learn that? Yeah. I think that's what he's talking about. but they just always have that. But then you get confidence in that, right? You get, there's a certain, not ego, but just a confidence to trust your intuition at that point, where you know that no matter what,

you'll probably come up with the answer, at least something that'll get you by. Something close enough. Sure. Yeah. Angels work on close enough, right? Would you want that? Would you want just to know everything,

know your mission, go through it robotically and not learn anything new? I don't know. We've talked about that and why the reason maybe if you're reincarnated, your memory gets wiped. It's because you wouldn't learn what you're supposed to learn and the next time around if you knew everything already. It's a re-education camp.

It's here to scrub off some nonsense until you get it right. Or like you said, maybe like a break. You know, you just angels and the unity consciousness and shit. Maybe you choose identity every now and then and you'd like some privacy maybe. Or just something new. You'd like to learn. You're like, what's learning like? Maybe coming to Earth is the cosmic idea of going home after work

and hit the reset button with a bowl or a beer. you know right yeah i i want i just don't want to remember the day or i just want to separate myself from the day so i'm going to do this for a bit this would be funny though if when we go to sleep we are the angels at work and we're doing the work when we're sleeping we're them dreaming having this life which is a break from that life we're just trading off yes and some folks like me who don't necessarily remember their dreams um or are aware that they dreamed maybe that's the thing is i'm doing so much work out there that it's a true separation a church and state kind of thing you have a real break like a true proper break from

this body, but then that body gets a true proper very too. You're not having work dreams. Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, I'm not like, fuck, I've got to string this whole universe together, these fucking cats, man. Aquinas also says that angels are individuals, but not in the same way humans are. Like, we're all variations of the

same species. Humans share a basic nature, but angels don't work like that. Each one is its own kind of thing entirely. So instead of a species with many members, it's more like each angel is a category unto itself. Right. Which is maybe how you get the archangels like you were talking about. Yeah, just different types of angels.

Like just a different type of bug, you know? This one flies. This one crawls. Yeah. That's its specialty. Right. Being a dumb fucking rat. And obviously that's a weird concept, but if you put it in more modern language,

you can almost think of it as like unique organizing principles. They're not interchangeable units, but distinct roles or intelligence is tied to specific functions. And then there's the will aspect. Aquinas says angels don't just understand. They choose. And their will is naturally oriented toward what they perceive as good. But where it gets interesting is because their understanding is immediate and complete if it is. Their choices are kind of locked in already. So humans can change their minds. We learn, grow, we screw up, we adjust. Angels don't really do that. Their decisions are kind of more final. And that ties into the whole idea of fallen angels. Yeah. And it's not like a gradual corruption over time. It's more like a single

decisive turn that just sticks because their choices are final. Wow. And Fox actually doesn't dwell too much on the fallen angel stuff here, but he does point out that in the traditional view, angels are deeply tied to love, understanding, and what you might call wisdom, not this cold, detached intelligence, more like intelligence that's inseparable from meaning and value. And then they circle back to something that starts to push this into a, again, as more zoomed out idea, the role of angels in the actual functioning of the universe. And Aquinas, like a lot of earlier thinkers, basically held the idea that the physical world is in some way governed or influenced it through these intelligences, and not as a

replacement for God, really, and not really acting independently, but participating in how things unfold. Yes. Like, it's almost thinking of the whole universe like a tree. And part of it is the bark, part of it's the Cambian layer, the green thing that runs all the information around. You might call that God. That's the information center. And then you've got the leaves. You've got different stages of that tree. In winter, it looks completely differently than it does in spring. So perhaps this entire entity is evolving as well. And this is, we're just part of its processes. Yeah. And that's why I think it really, the more I got into this, the more closely it resembled the plasma idea. Yes.

Yeah, that can be in the plasma. It keeps coming back to that. Right. Right. And this is, you know, a smashing together of several episodes. So if you're not caught up, you probably don't have any idea what the hell we're talking about. Son up for plus guys, because you're going to want this extension anyway. Go back.

All of it's tied together, miraculously, Joe. And really this, this installment here, this thing here, this and then the extension are the two that the guys got excited. about when they used to do this on the show, when they would be like, no fucking way that you pulled this and it's exactly what it dovetails greatly is what we used to hear all the time. This is exactly that.

So yeah, guys, catch up with this stuff. We're having a lot of fucking funnier with it. Oh, yeah. It's a trip. Yeah. So instead of a universe running purely on blind forces, again, you have this layered system where different levels of reality

are guided or shaped through these non-material intelligences. Again, this glue or this bridge. Yeah. And this is where Shell Drake starts tying it back into evolution, which Aquinas obviously didn't even have an idea of, because now you have a moving target. The universe isn't static anymore. It's evolving. New structures are forming. New systems are emerging.

So then the question becomes, if angels are tied to structures or systems, what happens when entirely new structures come into existence? Are these new intelligences associated with them? Were they always there waiting? Do they develop along with the system? They don't really answer that, of course. Because how can you? Well, we talked about this and we talked about squash bugs or anything else. Mary looked up that we have a tree that's out here on the property.

And there's one type of worm. And it's named after the tree itself because they cohabitate together. It drops underneath the soil there. It hatches its thing. It crawls up and does its thing on the tree. But if that tree isn't present, that worm is not present. So it's this idea. Or squash beetles.

Whenever you plant squash, squash beetles come around. Where the fuck are they? all your neighbors are planting them? Are they just in the soul waiting for you? It's an activated product of that produce? Like, what is that effect that these systems cooperate together so well, but where does the other one go when the other's not present? And if one needs the other, how do the numbers get sustained when that occurs?

Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. It's insane. It's, this is part of the simulation thing I feel. This is where it's like, oh, there's an automated process it says, and it doesn't need to be digital. It could be this angelic force or this plasma force that says, okay, well, they've planted squash.

We're going to need to get these bugs over there now. Or, oh, there's the tree. It needs this worm for the things that eat the tree. We're going to go ahead and bring the worm. It's like a package deal. Yeah. It's symbiotic. Yes.

So, yeah, obviously they don't really answer these questions. They're just opening the door to the question, which is great because then people can try to answer it. And that's kind of the vibe of this whole section of the book. look, Aquinas gives you this very detailed mechanical breakdown of how angels would operate if they exist. And then Sheldrake comes in and goes, okay, now let's try to map that on to what we currently understand about physics and systems in the universe as a whole. And then it starts, you know, sounding less like mythology and more like just a different way to describe how reality might exist. So after Aquinas, where everything is super structured and technical, they move into Hildegard of Bingen.

and this is where it kind of changes tone a bit because Hildegard isn't trying to logically map out how angels must work. She's describing what she says she's actually experienced. Now we're talking. Visions, imagery, full-on encounters with what she understood as the angelic realm, which also could be described as ETs or fairies.

Yep. And obviously right away, this is a bit different because where Aquinas is like, let's define the mechanics, Hildegard is more like, this is what it looked like, this is what I felt, this is how it showed up. Yes, just anecdotal, but it's, you know, personal experience. So, so cool. And she describes angels as these intense, luminous presences, which is very common, often tied to light, fire, movement, not these static figures or humanoid shapes hanging out with wings, but just these dynamic forces, almost hard to pin down into a fixed form.

and maybe that's why the older descriptions were, like you said, wheels within wheels or something. They're constantly morphing, almost like when you zoom in on a star, that kind of an idea. Well, and I saw this thing again, if we're talking about scale, you're talking about biowrhythm. And if this is scalable electronically or orically or any way that this creature is interacting with whoever it's interacting with,

I saw a fun fact on Little Shop of Horrors. Have you ever seen that movie? It sounds familiar. Dude, from a long time ago. Okay. Well, there's a puppet that is this, freaking plant, right, that he's talking to. It's a giant Venus fly trap. Okay, Little Shop of Hors, it's a musical

thing. It's fun. Rick Moranis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rick Moranis, who did Honey, I Shrink the kids who were going to fucking do a throwback to in the extension because it's relevant. He is interacting with this puppet. Now, when they were moving the puppet logistically in real time,

it took, like, so many people to do this thing, but it was too slow. Like 43 takes or something like that? 70 or something. 73 for the cash register scene alone. And it was all puppeting, right? No CGI or anything. But the thing was is whenever they got to the songs and

singing stuff, the puppets could move fast enough to make it work with the lip sync of the song. So what they did was they did everything in cut time. Now, what that meant was is Rick Moranis, the human actor standing there with all these puppets had to do all of his acting, deliver his lines, sing the roles, everything, his movements, half speed. Yeah. So he adapted to that and then they played it at double speed to make it match. But if you think about an alien or an angel or something needing to do this. Basically that your rate of motion is so damn slow that to get it to something usable like we talked about with James Singer and the whales.

He said whales are depressing because it takes forever for them to get a sentence out just because of how long it takes, right? So it's this idea of perhaps it's just as big of a challenge for the entity to come here, stabilize at a low enough rate, whatever that means, and then stick around. But that's why you're so jumpy. It's like trying to have an ADD kid staying in one place. Like our nephew comes, stays at the summer. He's bouncing all over the place when he's talking.

to us and we that's just how he is he didn't sit still we're just fine with it he moves at a different biarrhythm but it's interesting to consider these kind of things yeah it again sounds like tuning into the right frequency you know when you're the old school radios and right and finally you hit the right one and you're like oh leave it there don't touch it exactly when it's bouncing around it's staticy oh almost got the frequency it's almost there man how interesting that's what it reminds me of like i know people have seen the those out of focus shots of stars and how they just, they look like,

uh, pool lights when the water is moving. Yes. That's what I imagine it as. Yes. Yeah. Uh, and this whole thing about this,

uh, hard to pin down into a fixed form lines up with something that they mentioned earlier too. Uh, the idea that angels get reduced over time into these cute, harmless little figures, but originally they were described as overwhelming, even terrifying in their presence and not evil,

just way bigger than human scale. And I think it's like you said about, the invisible ships thing where it's our brains don't even have a way to comprehend it so we're just like it was a big thing and it was scary or being stoned around someone on coke yeah oh god uh there's also this constant connection she makes between angels and creation itself not just observers or messengers but participants and that's kind of goes back to dionysius yes she talks about them as being involved in the ordering of the cosmos itself which is a big claim, the movement of life and the ongoing process of creation. So instead of angels being occasional visitors that pop in and out of human stories, they're more like part of the background system that everything runs through. Right.

Like the elves you see on DMT, they're like going around hammer and stuff and making sure reality is staying together. Yes. They're coloring a leaf with a paintbrush to make sure that it's that color. And each leaf has its own elemental that does it. So interesting. Or angel. Yeah.

the Davas, yes. Right. And Fox kind of leans into this one because Hildegard fits really well with his whole creation spirituality angle. The idea that the universe isn't just something that was made once and then left alone, it's actively unfolding and these intelligences are part of that unfolding. Then you get into her descriptions, which really start sounding wild, but in a totally good MU way. She talks about angels as forms of light and energy, sometimes like flames, sometimes like those

radiating structures. There's movement and vibration, almost like everything is alive and in motion instead of fixed. And Sheldrake likes that and connects it back to modern ideas again. Fields, energy patterns, dynamic systems, because if you strip away the medieval language, then what she's talking about doesn't sound like solid objects. It sounds more like processes. Yeah. This constant movement, which it does line up kind of with the physics. I mean, energy is never created or destroyed, right? It's constantly in motion. Everything's in motion. Everything's in motion. Yeah. And if you get down to the ground, like if you just go lay in your yard and stare at just a couple of inches of soul, you'll see heaps of life walking by, living its life, flying by, doing

its thing, there's so much life going on around you that you can see with your physical eyes. And yes, imagine that. Imagine the parts you can't see. Right. And maybe that's what psychedelics do that. They perturb that filter to where it reveals those entities and that inner working and that connectivity. It's just really cool, man. I don't know. And, oh, another big thing that she's, brings up, Hildegard is sound and music. And she talks about the cosmos in the angelic realm, especially, as deeply musical and not metaphorically musical like your, oh, I felt like, no, but like harmony is actually built into how everything operates.

Yes. And you get the, I know the boys have talked about it, but I think we have touched on it here and there, but the music of the spheres, which has been around forever, but for her, it wasn't just a philosophy. It's something she experiences directly. angels aren't just thinking or acting they're praising, creating harmony participating in this kind of ongoing cosmic

expression and if you think about the way the Bible describes how the universe was created was what, through sound. Let there be light, yeah. Through the word. Yep. Through this

active vibration and frequency to use new age terms. Yes. Yes. And Fox points out this whole idea of praise is actually central in the older older traditions and not in this weird like ritual sense but more like the natural response to recognizing something bigger than yourself right people fall on their knees and oh well just the same as

recognizing that you yourself are trillions of cells making up your body right now that's the same type of recognition that's all it is it's just knowing that you're not this body or that you are a body but that you're made up of things that make you you know there's a bunch of stoner cells sitting in your body sitting around going do you ever feel like we're all just is connected, bro. Yeah. Like everything's connected. Do you ever feel like we're just one body, bro?

This is it. And again, maybe some other entity is sitting there saying that on a podcast right now, saying, do you ever feel like there's two guys in yourself right now these cells on a podcast? It's really cool. And they're talking about that maybe it's connected and reading some books about it or something. Do you think they have books in there?

Yeah. In whatever way they have books. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So according to that idea, then angels are constantly doing that. they're aligned with the flow of creation and that alignment shows up as what tradition calls praise and not in the idea of weirdly awkwardly singing songs together in Sunday when you sit in a pew,

but more like being in sync with how reality is supposed to function. There's also that connection to human creativity here as well, obviously being music. Hildegard herself was a composer, a writer, an artist, so for her, this wasn't even abstract. She saw artistic inspiration as something connected to the same source as these visions. So when humans create anything, music, art, ideas, a podcast maybe. Come on. That process in her view is tied into the same kind of flow that angels operate in. And again, not stated as fact is presented as how she understood it.

It's another way of describing it. When you got Don Lester, who delineated the difference for me, love this lady. She swapped the words out balance and harmony. And if you think about it, scientists want you to feel that this solar system or whatever, this universe is balanced in just so way because of gravity and forces. and this is pulling on that and all that in that structured way. But harmony is different, man. Harmony is things working together in unison. And if one's out of pitch, that's okay.

There are still a lot that are. And then you can adjust the tuning of that one. But if you think about an entire system, and this is related the world and talked about this with a few guests on the old show, that maybe this whole place is just a huge sound bath. And then what astrology is doing is sort of telling you the key or the note or the vibe of the song that that sphere is going to be running across the reality for a little while. We're in a sharp minor.

Exactly. Yes. Jupiter has this vibe that, you know, he runs through with the funk music. He's like, fuck, yeah. Pluto's like real dark and emo, and it's just like weird. Mars is death metal. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's just this interesting ideal of thinking it then more of harmoniously. And then you, again, like we touched on on the last plus show, cymatics. And you started getting into that whole world. And yes, man, it gets real deep. That's why I don't have a problem with any of these descriptions is because even the modern, oh, everything's held together because of this perfect balance of gravity and all this stuff. Okay, just, again, it's verbiage. It's semantics almost because you're just describing it in the way you know how to describe it at this current time. Yes, and probably due to a motive.

So could what you're saying be described also by a sound frequency holding that into place or a variety of tones then that interact in a different ways that have the same effect as what you've described as what you just said, gravity? Right. And there's this interesting overlap they bring up between her descriptions and more modern reports, people describing encounters with beings of light or, you know, orbs maybe, these intense, overwhelming presences or entities. They even reference contemporary accounts where people describe angels as balls of fire, which lines up pretty closely with Hildegard was saying centuries earlier. Yeah. So you get this, you get this whole thread running through time, these medieval mystics describing luminous, energetic, beings. You get modern people describing these similar type of experience, maybe with different words,

but then you get Sheldrake trying to connect that to fields, energy, and consciousness, and it's all pointing in the same direction, even if the language is totally different. And by this point in the book, you have three different lenses stacked up on top of each other. You got Dionysus giving you this large scale structure. You got Aquinas breaking down the mechanics, and then Hildegard giving you the lived, although anecdotal, experiential side. And instead of contrast, contradicting each other, they actually kind of overlap. Like we said, it's just almost like different words for the same thing. What a cold book.

So, yeah, after they get through the whole kind of history of Dionysius and Aquinas and Hildegard, the last maybe third of the book or so is them trying to step back and make sense of it all, which is kind of the point, right? And instead of trying to force this clean conclusion, it's more like they're just saying, hey, if you take even part of this seriously, what does it actually change? because by now they've built this whole layered picture that the universe might not be dead or mechanical and there could be these levels of organization or levels tied to different types of intelligences and what older traditions called angels might have been their way of, you know, saying that.

So the question is more, is less do angels exist and more what kind of universe are we actually living in? Right. And they come back to that big shift they talked about earlier, the move from that machine like universe to something more alive and evolved. So if you're in the machine model, everything runs on fixed laws, everything's predictable in principle, and there's no real place for intention or meaning beyond human brains. And I think that's where a lot of atheists come from, is that cold mechanistic, clinical type of idea. And so in that view, obviously angels don't fit. They just get chucked into the bin. But if the universe is more like a developing system, which even science, I mean, it says we're constantly expanding, right?

It sounds like developing to me. I mean, even evolution shows development. Yeah. So if you look at it like that as more of a developing evolving system, then the door cracks open a little bit. Not enough for most people to fit in, but at least enough to ask the question without sounding totally ridiculous. Yeah. And that's Sheldrake's whole thing. He talks about how modern science already admits there's a ton we don't understand.

Dark matter, dark energy, anyone? Most of the universe is unknown territory, just like kind of. of the ocean. Like most of it's just completely alien, for lack of a better word. Yeah. So the idea that there could be forms of organization or intelligence we don't have a good model for yet isn't exactly a stretch. It's more

like consistent with how little we actually know. He also keeps circling back to this idea of nature having memory and habits like we talked about in the last show and these patterns that build over time. Not these rigid laws set in stone but something a little more flexible.

and if that's the case, then whatever is guiding or organizing those patterns, whether you call it Fields, intelligence, or angels, start sounding a lot closer to what older traditions were pointing at. Fox, on the other hand, brings it back to the human side. He's less interested in pinning down what angels are and more interested in what they do or how people experience them. And that goes back to his whole talk about intuition and inspiration and the sense that there's just something beyond. human level awareness. And again, he's not even saying, well, that's what angels are, but pointing out that across cultures and time periods, people keep describing these same things, different names, same pattern.

They also get in this idea of ecumenicism, which is basically Fox's way of saying that if you strip things down far enough, you get a lot of different traditions are talking about the same kind of phenomenon, like we've been saying. Yes. And it's not just with angels. it's with a lot of different things, even like aliens and stuff. They're talking about the same thing. Right.

The constellations spread across the realm of seemingly uncontacted people. They use the same signs or anthropomorphizations for those groupings of stars. When there are millions of things to choose from up there, they chose those. Right. And those apparently stuck too. Yes. Yeah, so one culture would call them angels, another one calls them spirits. But the same human experience over life.

So instead of arguing over labels, they kind of shift into the underlying reality being described. Then there's the ecological angle, which comes up more towards the end. If the universe is alive, if the earth is alive, if there are levels of intelligence and awareness tied into them, then the way humans interact with the world starts looking a little different. Not so random or meaningless, maybe. And they don't really get preachy in the book or anything, but it's more like if everything is part of this large, system, then we're not separate from it. We're inside it, participating in it, whether we realize it or not.

Right. And they also go back to evolution one more time, which is where it gets it a little interesting because if the universe is still unfolding and still creating new forms, then whatever you want to call these intelligences, they wouldn't be static either. So the idea of angels stops being this fixed ancient concept and starts looking more like something that could evolve along with everything else, along with the habits of the universe. The law is evolving too. Wow, just like a species of tree or anything.

Yeah. Everything seems to. And it comes in cycles and there's big cycles and small cycles. Right. I don't know why that I keep getting my shelf off keeps dragging me to these areas. I can tell you, I'm telling you, this extension, man, there's never been a better setup. You and I have not done a more coherent pairing, unknowns because we don't tell each other what we're doing. but this amazing synchronicity here with this.

This is both of our elves coming together, all the books that they've been knocking off of our shows to bring to this one event it feels, because this ties in so well. Every single thing you're saying, I don't know if you could see me while you're over there doing that, but I've got this shit-eating grin on my face. Everything you're saying about it,

be connected, the earth being alive. I'm just sitting here going, oh, man, we'll just wait, just wait. It's so cool, especially tying it off with the woman's perspective because that's what we're doing here. We're going to get into this woman's perspective of everything you just talked about.

So cool. And obviously, like I said, the reason I liked it is because they don't try to nail it down tightly or anything. They kind of leave it hanging as a possibility. Again, a piece of the puzzle that, hey, if this fits somewhere, which I think it fits very nicely. And that's pretty much how the whole book ends, not with this firm answer, but with a bunch of open questions for you to knock around your noggins if you want. So things like, is the universe fundamentally alive or not? Because that would be a big part of it, right? Is consciousness limited to brains?

or is it more ubiquitous maybe? Are there forms of intelligence we just don't have a way to measure yet? I would say so. I would say so. Absolutely. And also did older traditions actually preserve some version of that understanding just in a different language? I would say also probably. Absolutely.

And if nothing else in innuendos and things like the Bible, where they pass down these stories of this ancient wisdom that's locked within it, but also it's got the angels and cherubs and stuff. It tells you about the inner workings. God spoke this bitch, which means words or important or sound at least. right that component it's just really interesting man uh to to look at things like this i'm just fascinated by this well done well done yeah and that's kind of where they leave it and you know not pushing anyone to believe anything they're just saying here's a different way to look at it take it or leave it and that couldn't fit more in line with how we cover these things this is this was somebody's idea you like it no okay fine well that's the point right and i mean all it's doing is the

it's the von danican approach and i love that what a wonderful precedent to set there as far as research goes because you're not saying any factuals you're just saying here's the evidence i found what does that lead us to see what do we now learn based on in that and they're asking everyone else to pick that up and move on with it and discover for themselves just as much as they're offering the idea in the first place they they want to know too but they don't have the answers just like us man we're just talking shit here and inevitably when you bowl it down but but really we're asking some really cool questions based on some non-emotional insights where we're just curious dude. The science is pointing us there. We're very curious and it seems to be this way. So what's next?

It's awesome. Yeah. So yeah, if you're on plus stick around for that, what do we, give us a wide view synopsis of this story. Yeah. So let's just go down. I'm going to just run through just a little bit here. So we're first, like I said, in this one, it is absolutely going to be a two-parter here. We're going to, because it's such a massive story. And I could just kind of go, oh, they did this and they did that. So, again, based on what you just did, going down and doing deep dives into some of these experiences, namely in the first part here, what we're going to do is first of all figure out how she gets out of her body and the experience of that. It's very cool. Maybe again, give some folks some inspiration to take some journeys of their own, write some books, so we'll cover them. And then you've got her expansion out into the solar system itself. So we're going to take a look at that, see what that's like. And then we're going to shrink down and go inside, which is one of my favorite parts of the work.

and that's only the first half. Again, it's a small little book, but we're going to, like I said, go into a guy's foot, a pore in his foot, and the way she describes the shrinking down, the experience of it, what it looks like,

what she's experiencing, how then the processes are functioning when inside that space at different scales. Because even at one particular scale, let's say one 500th of your size, it's a completely different realm than when you're one 1,000th, a part of your side. It looks like a completely different universe. The systems function differently.

All the physics are different. But you're inside of a guy, right? Of his foot. You just shrank down a little bit. Or you got really big and saw things. And then not only depending on your scale, depending on the vision that you have. I was thinking the whole time on this with National Treasure. You've seen that glorious film. Oh, of course. The Ben Franklin glasses. When they find those damn glasses and there's the little filters that you can move and you can either do the blue or the red or whatever, that's, that's, exact scene right there is what I pictured with this, but it was this dude's hand that he put, allegedly this guide, over her eyes so that that was to simulate those glasses. And then she saw completely different infrastructures and etheric bodies and oric fields and how they were all tied together and all of it's riddled with entities. Everything was entities and conscious

beings operating all of these processes. And we're just going to do a deep-ass dive on some of these really cool specifics. Then in the next episode, the next plus show that we have on Tuesday, we're to round the story out. I did my best to only do it in two episodes. I really was going to go for a three-part saga on here, but we're going to go into the hidden lives of the beings that are inside you right now of the varying different levels of which you could see them. Yes, the physical cells, but what are the little creatures and energies

and systems running at different scales with those? So we've got that, and then we're going to also talk about Raphael, who is her guide's big vision. He's got like this wet dream utopian society, and we're going to go over that. as well in the last part. It's just a huge story. So again, and this one though, stick around, guys. We're going to find out how to get your ass out of your stuck-ass body so you can move around a little bit, you know, more unencumbered, if you will. And then also scan out, see the system, see what that looks

like with different versions of eyes on and then as well shrink down and you're going to want to be here for this magic school bus. It's such an adventure. I'm telling you just get your favorite, you know, snuggy on and just come hang out with us. It's a lot of fun. Sounds fun. I can't wait. Cool. Thanks everybody for joining us. Again, that was the Physics of Angels exploring the realm where science and spirit meet. Of course, I'll have it linked down in the show notes. And I hope everybody has a great weekend. If you're on Plus, stick around.

If not, we'll catch you next week. Welcome to probably the most excited I've ever been for a Plus extension here.