NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast - Can AI Really Manage Your Money? Plus: The Truth About Roth Conversions

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Learn how AI can help you budget, invest, and build financial knowledge. Then, get expert insights on Roth conversions. How can AI help you manage your money? What do you need to know about Roth conversions? Hosts Sean Pyles and Elizabeth Ayoola discuss the rise of AI-powered financial tools and break down the pros and cons of using AI for budgeting, financial education, and investing research. They explore how generative AI, budgeting apps, and robo-advisors can assist with personal finance tasks but also highlight potential risks that come with using the technology, like misinformation and algorithmic bias. Then, investing Nerd Sam Taube joins Sean and Elizabeth to discuss Roth conversions, including how they work, when they make sense, and what tax implications to consider. They cover how to estimate taxes on a conversion, the impact of the pro-rata rule on backdoor Roth IRAs, and strategies to avoid tax complications. Whether you’re curious about AI-driven financial tools or weighing a Roth conversion, this episode provides the insights you need to make smarter money decisions. What Is a Robo-Advisor and Is One Right for You? https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/what-is-a-robo-advisor  Federal Income Tax Calculator and Refund Estimator 2024-2025 https://www.nerdwallet.com/calculator/tax-calculator  NerdWallet’s roundup of the best financial advisors: https://www.nerdwallet.com/best/investing/financial-advisors  In their conversation, the Nerds discuss: how to use AI for budgeting, AI investing tools, robo-advisors, AI for financial planning, AI stock research, how to use ChatGPT for money management, generative AI and finance, Roth conversion taxes, Roth IRA conversion rules, Roth IRA tax implications, backdoor Roth IRA, pro rata rule Roth conversion, traditional IRA vs Roth IRA, Roth conversion strategy, Roth conversion tax brackets, when to do a Roth conversion, backdoor Roth IRA step by step, Roth IRA withdrawal rules, best robo-advisors, AI stock picking, AI for retirement planning, how to avoid taxes on Roth conversion, investing with AI, and AI vs human financial advisors. To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email [e-mail]. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend.

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Well, I use chat GPT to find Valentine's Day staycation ideas. And I am proud to say that I now have new date night ideas that I will be taking full credit for. Just kidding, kinda. But honestly, I also use it to explain how bonds work like I was a five-year-old. And then I ask it to further explain to me as a visual learner. Wow, those all sound like really useful applications. I'll admit that I'm not an AI power user, largely because I worry about its environmental impact. But maybe one day I'll admit that I'm not an AI power user, largely because I worry about its environmental impact,

but maybe one day I'll use it to plan my life. This episode, we'll give folks a few tips for how they can use AI to help them manage their money. ["Smart Money"] Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Piles.

And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. This episode, we answer listeners' questions about Roth conversions, which is timely considering tax season is upon us. But first, let's explore the rapidly evolving and sometimes intimidating world of AI and whether it's a good idea to use it to help you manage your finances. So for context that nobody asked for, I recently wrote an article on the topic of AI for nerdwallet.com. And what I learned along the way was pretty interesting. So I came across an Experian report that found that 67% of the Gen Z population and also 62% of millennials surveyed

are using artificial intelligence to help with their personal finances. I guess I'm in that minority of 38% of millennials not using AI, but maybe by the end of this conversation, I'll be converted. Elizabeth, before you go too deep into AI stuff, I wanna be really clear. What do you mean by using AI to manage finances?

Because AI is really broad and so many financial tools can fall under the category of AI. You're absolutely right, Sean. And that was my first conundrum when I started researching. So I would say that when I personally hear AI, my mind immediately jumps to chat GPT, right? But the Experian report that I just mentioned focused on generative AI. So for those who are like, what the heck is that? It's defined as an algorithm or learning model that can be used to generate new content based on the data it's trained with. So the most common example is a tool like Chat GPT.

In the Experian survey that I mentioned, the target was people using generative AI tools for things like budgeting and saving, investment planning, or improving their credit scores. Anywho, other than generative AI power tools, there are so many other AI tools available that can help people to manage their finances. Some ways that people could use AI, generative or otherwise, to help manage their money, include via an AI-powered budgeting app, robot advisors, and yes, chat GPT or other chatbots.

There are also AI-powered tools that can be used for bookkeeping and researching and analyzing stocks, which can be a headache for some people. Some of these tools just use elements of AI, while others brand themselves as actual AI tools. And it kind of reminds me of greenwashing a little bit. Not everything that has a green label on it is 100% sustainable. Yeah, and a lot of companies are just saying they have AI elements to be with the trend right now, even if it's not a super advanced product. So it sounds like various forms of AI

can be deployed to manage different aspects of your personal finances. Exactly, Sean. So I think it's pretty cool, and it could remove barriers for some people who struggle to manage their finances because it all seems so complex. And it can also be a way for people to elevate their finances too if they're stuck at the basics.

Okay, Elizabeth, can you share three or four ways that people can use AI to manage their finances today? I think at a high level, AI tools can be used to assist with budgeting, one, understanding complex financial topics, two, and three, researching companies for investing. Let's start with budgeting there. Since that's a pillar of personal finance, off the top of my head, I think chat GPT or generative AI in general could be used to help you create a budget plan. What do you think about that?

Well, Sean, first of all, don't let me find out that you are an undercover AI expert. Are you? Are you? I'm certainly not, but I try to stay up on what's happening in the world. Okay, good. But yes, you are correct. So you could also tell an AI bot what your goals are and ask how you can get there based on your income and expenses. So if you're not into the AI bot life, there are also AI budgeting apps like Clio, for example, that can provide a budget plan, send payment reminders, and also track your spending. And I imagine that AI tools might also be helpful

for analyzing spending habits, maybe looking for areas of improvement in your budget and providing recommendations for how to spend less money. For sure. I will say though, it's important to remember that AI isn't always great for personalization. So it doesn't take things like your money values, your fears, your triggers,

and things like that into account. And these things are just as important as the quantitative aspects of budgeting. So for example, maybe I have a money fear around unexpected emergencies. so I would want a bigger emergency fund than the AI tool suggests. So Sean, this is a good place for you to plug your CFP knowledge around behavior and finance. Thank you for giving me this opportunity, Elizabeth.

In general, one of the roadblocks for people when it comes to accomplishing financial goals is just inertia. It can be really hard to get going for any number of reasons. So if you want to incorporate AI into your budgeting practice, think about what application of AI might make you more likely to accomplish what you want to do with your money. That might mean using AI-powered budgeting apps to organize your spending, or having a conversation with ChatGPT to help you find ways to stay motivated as you make progress on your financial goals. Let's move on to using AI for financial education.

Elizabeth, how can folks do that? And is it going to put us out of a job? I'm hoping it's not going to put us out of a job, Sean. But I don't know about you, but when I first started my financial education journey, I found many topics around finance confusing. For example, like how bonds work or how to analyze a stock, as I mentioned earlier. And it kept me from starting my investing journey

for a while. So there are some AI tools out there that can help you better understand complicated financial topics and also overcome some of these roadblocks. The thing I personally like about chat bots, like ChatGBT in particular, is you can use them like a thought partner and have a conversation with them. So you could ask it to break a complex topic down for you based on

your learning style and you can keep on asking follow-up questions until you understand. And if you think about it, if someone is explaining to you a topic and you don't understand, sometimes you get a bit apprehensive about keep asking, right? But with the chatbot, there's no judgment. So I think that's the difference between using a tool like AI for financial education and just reading an article. AI is more interactive. Yeah, I get that in theory, but here's where my curmudgeonly, Luddite tendencies are going to come out.

One of my biggest qualms with AI models is that they have a track record of just making stuff up and giving people inaccurate information. So I think if folks want to learn more about a subject, AI can be a good jumping off point. But then I would recommend going to a more trusted source like NerdWallet to ensure that you're getting accurate information. I see the sneaky plug that you just put in there, Sean. And I like it. I'm just looking out for our listeners, okay? I love it. And I agree with sneaky plug that you just put in there, Sean. And I like it. I'm just looking out for our listeners, okay? I love it.

And I agree with you on that. So we have covered budgeting and financial education. Let's touch on the last use, investing research. I think this is a huge one for investors, whether they're at the beginner, intermediate, or advanced stages of investing. So as I mentioned earlier, Sean, a barrier to getting started or even leveling up your finances can be a lack of understanding of how to pick stocks, analyze markets, or just research companies.

Some AI tools out there can do a lot of this work for you, and that saves you time. For instance, AI can help you sort through stock market data to identify worthwhile investment opportunities. And similarly, it could help you sort through historical data to help you identify potential risks so you can then make an informed decision based on that knowledge. For the most part, it can be a good resource for research around an investing strategy. And I just want to throw it out there that I think people should be cautious when it comes to using AI to tell them what stocks to pick or for personalized investment advice, and also that people should

be aware of algorithmic bias when using AI-powered investment tools. Algorithmic bias is when machine learning algorithms make decisions that systematically disadvantage certain groups due to flaws in the data it was fed or trained on. Remember, these tools are using data that they've been trained with, as you mentioned earlier Elizabeth. It's possible that data may favor certain companies or sectors. So folks should just keep that in mind when they use these tools. I second that. And I will also throw out there because there may be some people

who are like, well, aren't robo-advisors AI? So there is an exception, I suppose, which is using a robo-advisor. They use AI to help automate the investment process and also provide general advice. But the personalized advice you need to increase your chances of achieving your financial goals may be lacking with robo advisors. So with that in mind, if you want to learn more about robo advisors, another plug, we've got an article about that we can link in the show notes. And I think the sum of it is that AI can provide perspective, but it shouldn't be the only source that you use

to make investment decisions. On that note, Elizabeth, are you telling me that I shouldn't ditch my financial advisor for an AI tool quite yet? Well, I can't give you investment advice, Sean, but that is exactly what I'm saying. So listeners, do not ditch professionals like Sean, who can give your finances some personal razzle dazzle.

I remember when AI first hopped on the scene, I think people were spooked about it taking over, but now we're seeing more and more that we can be thought partners with artificial intelligence. Just add it to whatever else you already have going on if you think it's gonna be helpful. We also have an ongoing global issue to tackle

that AI might help with, trying to figure out what's for dinner and making sure these expensive eggs are not on the ingredient list. Well, until an AI model can make my dinner for me, I think I'm going to stick to my barefoot contestant cookbooks to figure out what I'm having for dinner. All right, enough about AI. Time to transition into our money question for today. And that is about dumb, dumb Roth conversions.

But quickly before we get into that, we are at one of my favorite parts of the show, the moment where we ask you listener to take a second and think about where you need some guidance with your money. Maybe you're feeling a little lost, like you don't even know what your financial goals should be. Or maybe you're trying to break yourself out of a bad financial habit but just can't seem to do it. Whatever your money question, we nerds are here to help. Leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD.

And a reminder that one of our goals on Smart Money this year is to talk with more of you live on the podcast to help you with your money questions. So if you want to hang out with Elizabeth and me for a bit and get some nerdy wisdom, let us know. One more time, leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. Let's get to this episode's money question segment where we answer listeners' question about Roth conversions.

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leads by example, just like you do. Build yours today at LandRoverUSA.com. Again, explore the Range Rover Sport at LandRoverUSA.com. We're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode we're taking on answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode we're taking on a couple listener questions about Roths, specifically backdoor Roths and Roth conversions. And here to help us answer them is investing nerd and friend of the pod, Sam Taub. Hey Sam. Hey Sean and Elizabeth.

Good to be back. Good to have you back. So let's get to the first listener's question, which comes from David, who sent us an email. Here it is. I have a question about IRA to Roth IRA conversions. I have four times in my IRA what I have in my Roth IRA, mostly because my IRA is old 401k rollovers. I can't find anywhere a calculator to estimate taxes that I will have to pay or anyone talking about how much to do a year.

So Roth conversions are a pretty hot topic nowadays, and for good reason. They can save folks taxes later, but the kicker is that they'll generally have to pay some taxes now. Sam, to start, can you describe quickly how a Roth conversion works? The process works just like a regular rollover. You can either have your traditional IRA custodian cut you a check and you deposit it into a Roth IRA within 60 days, or some custodians may be able to transfer the funds electronically. As Sean said, Roth conversions are the main character right now. Can you talk about why they're so appealing and whether

they're right for everyone? Well, there's a spotlight on Roths in general at the moment, because they offer a little more flexibility than a traditional IRA. The contributions to a Roth IRA are not tax deductible, they're already tax money, and you're allowed to withdraw them at any time. The investment earnings in a Roth account are different. You'll get hit with income tax and a 10% penalty for withdrawing those unless you're over age 59 and a half or disabled or liquidating an inherited IRA. Those are basically the same rules as withdrawing from a traditional IRA. But there's one other exception which is only available for Roth IRAs, and that's the first time home purchase.

You can withdraw up to $10,000 in earnings, tax-free and penalty-free, for a first time home purchase if your account has been open for at least 5 years. Needless to say, that's an appealing feature with the cost of housing nowadays. That said, there are some trade-offs to consider if you're thinking about a Roth conversion. They're irreversible and, as David said, they can generate some tax liability. I also want to add that while having the tax diversification that Roths can provide can be really appealing and beneficial in retirement, conversions aren't a great idea for everyone. Among other factors, they generally do make sense if your current tax rate is lower than the tax rate

that you think you'll have in the future, which requires a bit of guessing there. And as we'll discuss, there can be some serious and complicated tax implications. So let's get into the tax part. How are the taxes that people owe on a Roth conversion calculated? And more specifically speaking to our listeners question, are there any good resources

we can point them to so they can figure out what they might owe if they do do a conversion? Generally in a traditional IRA or a traditional 401k the contributions are tax deductible. So if you convert a traditional account to a Roth account those contributions aren't tax deductible anymore So if you convert a traditional account to a Roth account, those contributions aren't tax deductible anymore and you'll owe taxes on them. Assuming that David deducted all of his traditional IRA or 401k contributions from his taxes in the years before this conversion, he'd owe income tax on the entire amount rolled over into a Roth account that year. He wouldn't owe the 10% penalty though. To figure out how much this would actually

be, one thing David could do is use Nerdwallet's income tax calculator. He could run the numbers once with his normal adjusted gross income for the year and then once with his AGI plus the whole balance of the traditional IRA, and the difference between those two numbers is going to be the amount of tax EOs on the conversion. That's a good suggestion because the amount that you convert is considered part of your gross income for the year that you do the conversion, and the tax implications of a Roth conversion are a good reason to pause before making this decision.

You want to make sure you have enough cash to cover that tax bill, and you generally can't use the money from your IRA to pay what you owe in taxes without facing a penalty unless you're over 59 and a half. Now let's get on to our second listener question, and it gets more even into the weeds around Roth conversion, so here it is. Hello, my name is Ryan. I have a question about backdoor Roth IRAs.

I understand the general concept, however, my coworker brought up the pro-radar rule, which I think states that any other traditional IRA money is eligible for taxation even if the account you use to roll over is separate. His accountant advised him against it. My accountant didn't seem to think this was the case. Backdoor Roth. Now the name sounds a little sketchy, but they are legal and they can be a really useful tool for tax advantage retirement savings. So Sam, can you describe how this unsketchy backdoor Roth works? It does have a sketchy sounding name, but as you said, it's a perfectly legitimate strategy.

A backdoor Roth IRA involves opening a traditional IRA and then making non-deductible contributions to it, which is a thing you can do, and then rolling over that traditional IRA into a Roth IRA. The reason it's called a backdoor Roth IRA is because, number one, it gets around the income limits for Roth contributions. High income taxpayers aren't always eligible to contribute directly to a Roth IRA, and this circumvents that rule. And it also means you'll only owe tax on the profits your investments earned in the

traditional IRA before conversion. As we talked about earlier, if you convert a traditional IRA that contains tax-deductible contributions into a Roth, you'll also owe tax on the contributions, but the backdoor strategy usually involves making non-deductible contributions, so you get around that. Having said that, there's actually a wrinkle of the backdoor Roth strategy that I'd like to get your input on, Sean. Our listener asked about the pro rata rule. How does that work exactly? Well, if you didn't gather from the name pro rata, it's a little complicated, but

I will try to describe this as simply as I can. So here's how it works. Say you want to convert money from a traditional IRA to a Roth IRA. It's usually pretty straightforward, Sam, as you laid out earlier. You generally pay income tax on the amount that you convert. But things can get complicated when you have multiple traditional IRAs or one account where you have a mix of pre- and post-tax contributions. So let me give you an example to bring this to life a little bit.

Say you have $75,000 in one traditional IRA where you took the tax deduction, which effectively makes the money in the account pre-tax, and $25,000 in another traditional IRA where you haven't taken the deduction for a total of $100,000 across another traditional IRA where you haven't taken the deduction for a total of $100,000 across two traditional IRAs. With a simple backdoor strategy, you could move the $25,000, which you already pay taxes on, into that Roth IRA without taxes. But because you have multiple traditional IRAs, some with pre-tax and some with post-tax funds, the IRS says, not so fast. When you go to convert the money from that second IRA, the IRS looks at the total amount you have in all of your IRAs and will assess a

proportional tax on the amount that is pre-tax. Because here's the thing, pro rata is Latin for proportional. So with the example we've been going with, the IRS sees that 75% of the money in your IRA is pre-tax and 25% is post-tax. This means that if you went to convert that $25,000 that was in the account that had entirely post-tax contributions, you'd still likely be on the hook for taxes on up to 75% of it

because the IRS is looking at your total IRA amounts, 75% of which was pre-tax. Well that definitely falls under the complicated category. So Sean, do you have any thoughts about how people can avoid this pro-rata mess and also avoid a run-in with Uncle Sam? Well one is to keep your accounts or contributions simple. You could make sure that you only have pre-tax or only have after-tax contributions in your IRA account or accounts.

Another option is to avoid Roth IRAs entirely and instead contribute to a Roth 401k if your employer offers it. They allow you to contribute directly to a Roth account without having to deal with any of the IRA accounts or their income limits. I find that much easier. Yes, I love a Roth 401k as sexy as they come. Alright, Sam, any other thoughts about Roth conversions and how people can make use of them? Well, I think that a big part of the reason Sean understands this is because he's completed certified financial planner training. And in general,

very few people other than licensed financial advisors really know all the ins and outs of Roth conversion rules. I certainly didn't understand how the pro rata rule worked before Sean explained it. So if you're considering a Roth conversion, backdoor or otherwise, it's really worth talking to an advisor. And if you don't know where to find one, NerdWallet's Best Financial Advisors roundup is a good place to start. You can list your main financial priority, like tax strategy or investment advice or financial planning, and you can get matched with an advisor for free. We'll put a link to that in today's show notes. Great. Sam, thank you so much for coming on and chatting about this with us.

Sure. Thanks for having me. That's all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. You can also email us at podcastatnerdwallet.com. You can follow the show on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes. And here's our brief disclaimer, we are not financial or investment advisors. This nerdy information is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes, and

it may not apply to your specific circumstances. This episode was produced by Tess Vigeland, Hillary Georgie helped with editing, Megan Mao mixed our audio, and a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all of their help. And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.