NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast - CFP vs. CPA vs. CFA: The Only One Most People Need

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Which financial pro do you need: a CFP, CPA or CFA? Plus, an economist explains why "good" economic data doesn't always feel that way. Hosts Sean Pyles, CFP®, and Elizabeth Ayoola sit down live, in-studio, with a listener named Belle, who's in the process of launching her own veterinary practice. They help figure out which financial professional she actually needs — a CFP, a CPA or a CFA. They break down what each credential means, how to vet and select the right advisor, and the real cost of choosing the wrong one. Then Belle asks for help with a second money question: whether to consolidate ten scattered retirement and brokerage accounts, and the Nerds walk through how account fees, old 401(k)s and employer rules factor into that decision. Then, Sean and Elizabeth are joined by NerdWallet senior economist Elizabeth Renter and senior news writer Anna Helhoski for a special send-off conversation. After 12 years at NerdWallet, Renter is moving on, and she looks back on what she's learned about how Americans really handle their money. They dig into the gap between headline economic data and lived financial experience, the K-shaped economy, and what NerdWallet's latest Consumer Financial Resilience Index says about household finances heading into fall. Here is the investing fee calculator Sean referenced: https://www.nerdwallet.com/investing/calculators/mutual-fund-calculator  Check out the full findings from NerdWallet's Consumer Financial Resilience Index: https://www.nerdwallet.com/finance/studies/financial-resilience-index Subscribe to our podcast’s free email newsletter for bonus content and more from our hosts at https://smartmoney-nerdwallet.beehiiv.com/  Want us to review your budget? Fill out this form — completely anonymously if you want — and we might feature your budget in a future segment! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScK53yAufsc4v5UpghhVfxtk2MoyooHzlSIRBnRxUPl3hKBig/viewform?usp=header Smart Money’s YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@nerdwalletsmartmoney To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email [e-mail]. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend. *The show notes were created with the assistance of AI. They have been reviewed by our editorial team for accuracy and quality. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hello, mid-sized business. We see your big ambitions, but how do you achieve the wins you want when your technology is holding you back? SAP Grow is built to grow with your business, no matter its size, with AI embedded at its core, working across every system, all ready to go from day one so you can hit the ground running. Bring it with SAP Grow. AI Cloud, ERP for any size business. CFPs, CPAs, CFAs, CFAs, knowing which financial professional to hire can be really confusing. But hiring the right one can mean the difference between actually achieving your financial goals or not. Welcome to Nerd Wallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Piles.

And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. Today we are coming to you live from the beautiful Portland, Oregon. We're in a studio, as you can tell, shooting lots of amazing content for you. Now, the topic of today, what is the best type of financial advisor to choose and what are the risks of choosing the wrong one? We're joined by a listener, Bell, who's in the process of starting a veterinary practice and is hoping to find the right help to make sure this all goes well financially. Bell, welcome to smart money. Thank you. I am happy to be here.

Great to have you on. Well, I'm the outsider here because everyone in this studio, including tests in the background, is from Portland. I am not. So tell us, Bell, what is your favorite thing about living in Portland because you live here? It's obviously, like, very outdoorsy-friendly. So I really enjoy, like, winter sports, like snowboarding. And in the summertime, you know, like going to the coast, going on, like, just the quick hikes in our backyards. And actually, like, the food scene.

Yeah, we have really great coffee, wine, all the things. Great. I want to hear about your professional career so far. You're planning to start a veterinary practice. That's really exciting. How did you get to this point? I've been working with bigger corporate clinics for almost like a decade now and kind of interested in being my own boss

and wanted to be a little bit more flexible with, you know, how I practice. Instead of having to follow all the kind of rules and, you know, how the upper management dictate what I have to do as a veterinarian. Working more on your own. own terms then. Yeah, and then be able to, you know, have my own staff and making sure that they're taken care of as well. But I imagine there's a lot more administrative overhead than what you are currently dealing with because you're working hands-on with animals right now. And when you have your own clinic, you're going to be actually managing a team of employees, right? Yeah. I think

that I'll really like that part of an Oneeon Clinic, but I don't know. I've never tried it before. It's a very brave thing that you're doing. Where are you in the planning state? It's pretty early. We're still probably like nine to 12 months out at this point. So I have a business partner. We just recently talked with a couple of attorneys and we we have finalized attorney to kind of help us write like an operation agreement. Kind of like a pre-ups for the partners. I like that. Yeah. And then where do the finances come into play now? Initially, we thought that we'll each get our own like financial advisors and then make sure that we're good on our own and then like maybe find like a. joint financial advisors. After like talking to a few financial advisors, I think that what I maybe actually need is like accountant. Okay. And for some context, part of why you're sitting in this chair right now is because you emailed me via my own firm to see if I might be the right CFP to help you. Yeah. And in talking, I said, look, I have all this expertise, but I have never

started a veterinary practice before. So I might not be the right person to work with you. And so I still rope to you into joining us on the show. So thank you for coming on. But you had some questions around which kind of financial advisor might be best for you. Can you talk us through how you've been thinking about this and why you're currently maybe leaning toward a CPA? I was kind of looking more of a like a holistic kind of review of my own personal like finances and I'm looking to make sure that like I'm also like tech smart. Looking for someone who can help me like maybe making sure I'm not missing out on any sort of like tax savings I could potentially have and maybe like connecting the dots between my personal finances and like the business side of

things. Very smart things to think about. I think when people start a business, included myself, sometimes we think about the tax things that we have to do, like for example, quarterly estimated taxes. I've talked a lot on the show about how I forgot to pay mine. So having a CPA who usually works with taxes and help with tax drives. strategies can help make sure that you're not missing any of those things and also help you to save money on taxes with tax planning. I've also talked about how they helped me with my business

structure to ensure that I was saving on taxes. So all very good things to think about. You mentioned to me that you were considering hiring a CFA, a charter financial analyst. Have you looked into that anymore? Not yet. Because honestly, like we're pretty overwhelmed with like all the looking for all the professionals. Which makes sense. Like I mentioned at the top, there are a lot different kinds of professionals. And just for some more context on a CFA, charter financial analysts tend to be sort of investment professionals that work within larger institutions. They don't generally work with individuals in your situation. In your case, I think you might want to consider working with a certified financial plan or a CFP and or a CPA. The good thing about a CFP is

that they kind of work as like the quarterback of your financial team. So they can coordinate with a CPA and with your attorney and just make sure that everyone is kind of moving in the same direction for your goals because with a veterinary practice or kind of any business that has a lot of moving parts like this, there's a lot to keep track of and a CFP that you're hiring will be responsible for that. So you don't have to worry about, okay, is my CPA talking to my accountant? Do they have all the right information? It's the CFP's job to make sure these things are happening. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

And then, Sean, you brought up an important point, which is when you're running a business or even just as an everyday person, And sometimes you need a team of financial professionals. How can someone make sure that that's cost effective having maybe both a CPA and a CFP? It can get a little expensive. I'm not going to lie. But you're often getting what you pay for in terms of expertise. So if you found a CFP who has experience with managing businesses and getting people who maybe have your type of business or similar ones up and running and continuing to grow over time, that will pay for itself because you will not have as many missed opportunities. and like you're saying around finding like tax savings, they can help ensure that's happening too.

And they may be able to connect you with a CPA who has similar experience as well. So you'll want to think through maybe which one you might want first, especially as you're getting started. A CPA could help you when you're filing taxes. A CFP is going to be able to help you with a comprehensive financial picture. It seems like you're kind of between both desires right now. Are you leaning more toward one or another or where are you thinking there? Well, before we had this conversation, I was leaning more towards having just an accountant, a CPA. That's what my attorney recommended.

So I just kind of went with his expertise. I think that could make sense too, especially as you're just getting things started. You don't have as many complicated things to sort out as maybe when your business is really expanding in earnest. So if you just need some initial tax guidance, you might be fine with the attorney and the CPA. eventually for longer term planning, it might be really helpful to work with a CFP who can say, okay, this is what your business is doing. But also, let's talk about what you, Bell, are doing outside of this business as this is, your main income source.

What's your retirement planning looking like? Because they may be able to help you find the right kind of retirement plan structure for your business, too. Okay. One of my favorite topics, I find that sometimes entrepreneurs, retirement plan is to sell their business. And they're like, hey, I'm not saving tours retirement. And I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong. but definitely something to think about long term.

And of course, there are also so many retirement accounts out there for entrepreneurs. We have SEP IRAs and lots of other accounts that you can use to save for retirement, which you can think about once your income starts coming through in your business. Yeah. It feels like I almost need to just, like, get another degree and, like, I mean, learning all these accounts. I know. I know. It can feel overwhelming.

But the truth is, like you're doing, it's one thing at a time, right? and you don't have to learn and do everything at once. Right now, my understanding is that we need to figure out if we want to have an LLC or like a S-Corps. That's why like the CPA is like the person at this stage. Yes. I think that's a great point. And Elizabeth recently went through a similar experience transferring from an LLC to an S-Corp at the guidance of your CPA, right? That's right. Exactly.

Exactly, exactly, to help me lower my taxable. But of course, every business and goals and tax situation is different, which is why, like you're doing, it's good to hire your own CPA and see what they advise you to do for your business structure. But it definitely saved me taxes. I'm paying almost half of the taxes I was by switching from an LLC to an S-court. Perfect. Yeah, that's good to hear.

Like you mentioned earlier, you're kind of mapping out how you'll get to the point of having your own practice up and running. So I think it could make a lot of sense to begin working with a CPA sooner than later, figure out what kind of business structure is right for you. And then, again, once you're established more, think about hiring that CFP. It's going to be able to look at everything else for you and then coordinate your team. But it might not be the most urgent thing currently just based on your more immediate priorities. So interesting thing is my wife is actually a CPA. Oh, but she doesn't know like personal, because she's like, what is it, auditor? So she doesn't know. Yeah, it's a different

specialty. Yeah, different specialty. I actually forgot why I told you this. But there was an important. Since we're already just sharing our thoughts, our inner thoughts, I had an intrusive thought just now. And I wanted to know what's your favorite animal? Then we can go back to the finance stuff. As a veterinary. Yes. Well, like, you mean like between dogs and cats or just any animals? Well, okay, too. The ones that you work with, I guess, on a daily basis and then any. Well, I think official answer, I have to say, I like both. But secretly. I prefer cats and small dogs. This is a place for honesty. Tess is cheering in the background. Tess has cats. Thank you for sharing.

We like to be honest and candid here. I don't know if you know this. I have a gecko that is 24 years old. I got her for my 11th birthday. Do you work with exotics at all? You know, I don't. We have like 30 minutes of lecture on gecko for, you know, my education. So, yeah, I'm not going to lie.

I mean, she's pretty low-maintenant. She's been to the vet. once in 24 years. That sounds about right. That is cost-effective. Anyway, we digress. And something I should mention too, so I record in my living room.

My gecko is like five feet away from me, and she eats crickets. And sometimes the crickets chirp, and you can definitely hear them if you're listening really closely to the podcast. Those who know, no. Sometimes when we're recording.

So basically she chews with her mouth open, is what you're saying? She doesn't chew at all. She's waiting for these crickets to get eaten. They're just hanging out in the tank. Oh, my God. They're doing their own thing trying to like mate and eat each other. They're gnarly.

The crickets. Oh, yeah. This could be a whole podcast about how much crickets are disgusting. But we won't go too far down that path. So maybe it's a good thing you're not working with geckos because it comes with bugs and other things that people might not like. Yeah, that's the exact reason. But I want to go back to your wife being a CPA that made me think about actually finding the right professionals for your needs and how one of the best ways to do this is through your network. So even though your wife is an auditor, I'm sure she has a network of other CPA.

Or have you been able to find someone maybe through her? No. Actually, we have a lot of friends who are CPAs. But yeah, nobody actually does like veterinary. Oh, it's such a, maybe such a niche, right? It's pretty niche, yeah. So we have a contact. He's local.

And apparently he does all the veterinary stuff. Yeah. Did you call up another vet office and say, hey, who's your guy? My attorney said that these are the contacts and these are the banks that you can talk with. I mean, that's helpful. I like the word of mouth and the personal connection that you have to that. I also am a little wary of just going with that one person without vetting a couple other people. So it might just be a smart, prudent move to talk with a few other CPAs who are skilled in working with veterinary offices.

They might not be local, but you could probably talk with someone who'd be able to help you. And would you feel comfortable working with someone that's not in Portland? Yeah, because I think it's really, really hard to find like a time where my partner and I, were not working and then be able to meet with someone Monday to Friday. So I think that it probably doesn't really matter like if it's like virtual or not. My hope and my focus for you to find the right CPA is finding the right person who has the right skill set for you. Yeah. And that you also mesh with. I think it's kind of understated how important it is to have some kind of chemistry with your financial professional. You don't have to be in love. But yeah, you should

at least have kind of a shared connection. Yeah, for sure. And from a dollar and cents perspective to just price comparing. Seeing what each person might charge you and what you'd really be getting for that cost is really important as you're finding someone else. Bell, so I want to ask you, I know that you said that your attorney referred you to a CPA. What kind of criteria do you have to select a CPA? What are you looking for, if anything? Like what you mentioned earlier is like someone who like seems like a nice person and then

is willing to kind of work with our schedule is probably one of the priorities at this point, someone who's like really familiar with the business. Like it doesn't have to just be veterinary clinic. I heard that there's a lot of similarity between like veterinary clinic and dental clinic. So I'm also like fine with if someone's had like experience in those areas. And it might be worthwhile as well to ask for some references when you're shopping around. So say you're you interview a CPA who you really like, just say, hey, can I talk with one or two of your clients and get a feel for what their experience was? Just to kind of do your due diligence because you don't really know what it's like working with someone until you're actually doing it. And you can kind of cut to the chase by hearing from people who've already

done it before. Oh my gosh. References are so important. I always have a side quest story. But I know someone who recently filed their taxes and well thought they did and realize their CPA did not indeed file their taxes. So you definitely want to get those references and make sure they're efficient because there is a cost to choosing the wrong financial professional right, Sean? Yeah. And one can be just having missed opportunities, like not having your taxes filed on time. Another one is you actually could kind of overhire for what your needs are right now. Like we discussed how you might not need a CFP immediately. If you're hiring a CPA that has almost too many skill sets or expertise that you may not actually need the tap right now, you could potentially overpay for what your current needs are.

Whereas like, you know, you mentioned that you want some help finding your business structure. That's pretty technical. But eventually down the road, if you just want help filing your taxes, you might be able to get by by just working with an enrolled agent versus a CPA because they can buy their taxes for you and it'll be less expensive. So that's something to consider too down the road. Well, you also wrote to us with some questions about potentially consolidating investment and retirement accounts. So shifting gears a bit, tell us what's going on there. I don't know how, but I actually have like 10. What?

Sorry. I didn't even let you finish. I have 10 accounts across four different platforms. Okay. What are the accounts? Four retirement accounts. I have four individual brokerage accounts. And then I have two HSAs if you count that.

Oh. Yeah, that's a lot to manage. How long if you had these all at once or have they just kind of accumulated slowly? Yeah, they kind of accumulate it slowly. The reason I have so many accounts is like I was trying to like streamline these. And then it turned out, it just, they're just scound. It's whatever the opposite of streamlining is. It's a broadlining it where you have different things going different directions.

Yeah. Well, I think the most important question to ask you because, I mean, it really depends on the person whether you should consolidate all your accounts or not. I am a type B, loosey-goosey chaotic person, so I do not need 10 accounts because it would just make it easier for me to make mistakes. How do you feel about having 10 accounts? Is it overwhelming for you? It is getting a little bit too much for me at this point, especially nowadays. you all have to do like that multi-factor authentic. Oh, it's so annoying.

I just, yes. It's getting a little bit challenging. So I think that's one of the main reason why I want to consolidate. And also I don't know if there's like advantages of consolidating versus just leaving them in their own accounts. Because this may be irrational. But some accounts, they grow a little bit less versus the other accounts. So that's kind of true. interest, so it depends on how much you say it. And also the investments that you have selected in

each account are going to perform differently. So that's probably part of it. Let's break this out into two different sections because your retirement accounts are going to be a different beast from your brokerage accounts. Which one is more concerning to you? The individual brokerage account is more concerning to me because I don't think that I need four of them. Probably not. Do you have the same investments in each account or just all different? No, they are just a different time. I feel like I want this and I just open it and tried it out. Okay. How much do you have in each account? Do you know? My baby account is the Robin Hood. Back in 2020 during COVID, somebody told me that you should have a Robin Hood account. I was like, great. Sign me up. Sign me up. I did that. I have

$150 in there. Okay. Okay. Baby account for sure. From $85. Okay. And at this point, that's probably long-term capital gains because you opened it six years ago. So that's helpful. Okay, and what's the next one? I have two Schwab accounts. One is a Robo-Avisor account or the Intelligent Proffolio, they called it. And then the other one is just like a self-directed account. And then how much you got in those?

Each of them has 10 grand. Okay, look at that. That's a big jump. Okay, good. Yeah. But like the reason I opened a robo, actually after listening to Sean, shared his experience because I think you have a robo account. I do.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, maybe I should open that. So I did that. We're influencing people. Yes. I still really like my robo advisor account. I've had it for years and it's been really helpful for me. Okay.

So what about your final individual account? Yeah, it's the Sofi robo account. Okay. So you have two different robo accounts. How much is in the Sofi account? The sofi, that one is baby. That one's like 1,200. Okay.

Yeah. It's recent. Yeah. When did you open that? Like a few months back. Oh, okay. Yeah. Got it. Why did you open that? Yeah. Well, because so far as my bank, so I thought that might be a little bit easier to just like direct deposit to the account so I can see it. One thing I like about you, Bell, is you're not afraid to open account and start investing. You'd be shocked how many people are afraid to start. So you have started 10 times and I love that. Amazing.

I know, maybe I should, you know, dial back a little bit. Again, I'm not your financial advisor. I'm not telling you it was a do with your investments, as you've heard of say a million times on the show. However, I think you probably consolidate some of these accounts. Like the Robin Hood account seems like just something that is maybe weighing on you that is not doing a lot currently given the balance in it. If you close any of these accounts because they are individual accounts, you're going to have a tax consequence. And so with that one, with the Robin Hood, for example, I mentioned long-term capital gains. That's what you're going to be paying if you've had the investments for a year or more. And the tax rate on that is less than you would have for something like your new SOFI account.

Because you've had it for less than a year, that's going to be short-term capital gains, which is basically just your own personal income tax rate. So if you wanted to close an account just to tidy things up, that would be a pretty easy one to close, the Robinhead account. The Schwab accounts, how are you feeling about them? Are you okay with them being there? I like them. I was actually, after doing those exercises, because you asked me about like the cost of the fees. Yeah, I wanted you to get some information, yeah.

Yeah, so I realized, wow, the SOFI actually charged me like 0.25% versus the Schwab is free. So I think what I would probably do is maybe just leave the money and the SOFI robo and then wait for year plus and then maybe just close in and transfer it to. I similarly had personal gripes with the fees that SOFI charges me because I have a Roth IRA through them. I've moved over to a different platform that I use primarily for my robo investments. And it has lower fees because the thing is that fees can eat into your returns tremendously over time. So Schwab having no fees, that could say to you potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars over your lifetime of investing. One thing I want to direct you to Bell is that Nerve wallet has an investment fees calculator. So you can put in how once you have in each account, a potential rate of return, what different fees are.

And you can see over time how that might eat into or potentially enable greater growth in your, your investments just based on the fees alone. So I'll send you a link to that after this. We'll have one in the upset description. But play with that just to see what it really might be depending on your swab or your Sophy account. So, Val, I'm wondering, how do you contribute to all of these accounts? The investments, the retirement accounts, like, what's your strategy?

My retirement accounts, third of 401 case, the employer will just take it out for me. So I don't have to worry about that. I think I contribute like 13%. Do you get a match? So I recently switched jobs, so then I have to wait for a few more months. Okay, there's a vesting cliff there. Yeah, yeah. Not a fan of those.

I want you to get that free money now. Right. I do want those free money, but they're not giving to me at this point. Eventually, yeah. I don't have any, like, actual, like, percentage. I just put $500 into one account. Okay. For your investment accounts?

Yeah. That's interesting. Which account is getting that money right now? Well, it's the swab. The swab. Okay, well, again, it has no fees, so I'm happy to hear that. Yeah, it just takes like three business days to show up, and I'll forget that, like, I did that, and then I have to like invest.

So that's really why I open SOFi. Is it direct deposit into the Schwab account? It's not. Okay. That might be a really easy way to basically accomplish what you wanted from your SOFI account. You can just do automatic transfers, at least my investment account allows me to set those up, And I would be shocked if Schwab didn't allow you to do that too. That way you can just say, okay, on the 16th of the month, I want a certain amount of money to go into this account.

And it'll just automatically pull from your bank account. And even though you're banking the SOFi, it should be compatible. That's the strategy I use. So I only have a handful of accounts, including one brokerage account. I have two investments accounts and then, or rather, retirement accounts, and then an HSA and whatever. But yes, I do exactly what Sean said and just automate it to those accounts so that it's easy for me to manage. So what do you think you're going to do? Are you going to consolidate some of the accounts, close some of them, leave them as they are?

I think the Robin Hood, I'm definitely going to close because that's the one that, like, I forget I have them. And then every time I sign on, I have to, like, try to figure out what my passport is. I actually have a question for you guys. So I have, like, two, four on K's. One is from my previous employer and then one is my current employer. Is there, like, a benefit or, you know, maybe, like, you would, like, disagree, like, rolling over, the 401k to my current 401k or maybe roll to like a backdoor IRA. It's a matter of preference.

So some people might choose to leave it with their former employer, but you do want to be careful about fees again. Sometimes employers will charge more if you no longer work with them or rather the 401K plan will and then your fees will be higher. So maybe you want to look into that. You could always do a 401k roll over it and roll it into your new 401K just to make everything again neat and tidy and ensure everything is in one place. So it's a matter of preference and you want to think

about fees as well. Yeah, and also investment options too, because if you roll it into an IRA, you might have more investment options available to you. Again, with hopefully lower fees because some former employers will charge you more because you're not working there anymore. Also, rolling over accounts can be a little bit of a headache. So just be prepared for some administrative annoyance if you're going to do that and try to do what's called a direct rollover where the plan administrator is rolling it into whatever

new account you have. Otherwise, you'll be ending up with like a paper check for the balance. your 401K and you just don't want to have to mess with that. Are you feeling kind of overwhelmed or like you're forgetting about these 401Ks or what's driving the push to consolidate just besides thinking that it might be easier? I think it's just probably easier. And then, you know, the more I listen to your podcast, the more things that's going through my head.

So it's just every week I have a new idea. Yeah. Well, I'm happy to hear that. I mean, I think you could really benefit from doing it just to have simplified accounts because having 10 right now is a lot to manage. I like the idea of you looking into an IRA, whether it's a backdoor Roth or it's a traditional IRA, just for the investment options that you might have available to you. And you could look at an IRA from either SoFi or Schwab, I mean, there are loads out there. We have Roundup Saunderval that you can check out too. And just seeing what might be best

for your situation, because having the account sit with your former employer probably isn't doing the ton for you. Like, yes, it's growing in the background, but you can't contribute to that account anymore. As you get nearer to retirement, which is still a ways off for you, it's always a good idea to consolidate your account so you don't forget about them. The first job that I have when I moved back to the U.S., I had a 401K. I did not have a lot of money in there. I left the job in under a year, and I didn't know anything about personal finances or rather retirement savings at the time. And what I learned now is I had a low balance, so they just automatically closed my 401k account, and they sent me a check in the mail. I thought it was free money,

bell. I was like, who, $1,500 or whatever it was. Time to ball out. And I spent the money bell. Yes. So I know you're not going to do that because you listen to our podcast. Don't do that because you'll get taxed by the IRS. You still have to pay taxes on that money and you'll have to pay penalties to. And none of us want to pay either. So for anyone out there listening and watching, don't do that. So if they do close the account, you have a time frame to deposit it into a new 401k or do a rollover. But don't spend the check. Don't do that. So, Belle, you have all these different accounts and different locations. Do you currently have any sort of system that helps you look at all of them in one place? Like the NerdB wallet app can help you do that or other tools that are out there just so

you can see, okay, yes, maybe you do have 10 different investment accounts, but you can see all the balances of them in a single dashboard. Are you using anything like that right now? I use co-pilot. That app is a little bit finicky. It's like you constantly have to like re-approve from. Oh, yes. Yeah. That's annoying. And one of your main annoyances with all these accounts is just the administrative burden of logging in all the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's tiring.

So that's a hiccup with a lot of apps like this, is that you'll have to reauthenticate the connection. Sometimes you just don't feel like doing it and then six months go by and you're like, wait, what's my balance on this account? I haven't logged in. Exactly. So I get that. That can be kind of a pain. So yeah, it's a good idea to keep some sort of aggregator tool in your back pocket so you can look at your account all in one place, even after you can consolidate them. And hopefully if and when that happens, it'll be easier to remember your password.

Or you could just go back. back and just start writing them in a notebook like I do. Yeah, I have to put it in my notes and then lock it. Yes, a locks note or a password manager. Those are really great ways to secure your passwords and have them accessible. So there are options out there. It's just about finding the system that works best for you. Well, Bell, we have talked about a lot of stuff here, your favorite animal.

We've talked about CPAs and CFPs and 10 accounts. So what do you think in conclusion you're going to take away from this and what are you going to do next? I'm going to have to ask for like the references review of these financial professionals. I didn't know I can do that. So I'll do that. I will try to consolidate a few individual brokerage accounts and then the look into rolling over the previous 401K to a different account, especially if their advantage is like saving on the fees and kind of more options for investments. You've got your homework. Yeah, a lot.

Well, we like to hear from listeners and viewers who come on the show. So please send us an update. And we will be doing another Where Are They Now episode. So maybe you'll be featured on there, Bell. We want to hear about how your business goes. We want all the juicy update. Yeah, for sure. Hopefully you can keep me accountable in 9 to 12 months and see if I actually did it.

Okay. We'll set a reminder. We'll be in touch. Bell, thank you so much for coming on and talking with us. Yeah, thank you for having me here today. We will be back in a second, but make sure you actually come back because we're going to be talking to our economist Elizabeth renter for the last time. And she is going to be sharing what she's learned about the economy over the past decade plus. Today's episode is sponsored by Rula.

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We have a very, very special segment today. Nerdwallets economist Elizabeth Renter is heading off to new pastures. Yes, I am bringing out the sad emojis. Liz, we're going to miss you. Oh, thank you. So we're going to be bringing her onto the show for the last time, at least as a fellow nerd, to share her insights about what she's learned about the economy over the past 12 years with us. 12 years.

That's so impressive. And our news colleague, Anna Hilhouski, is joining us in the conversation. Hey, Anna. Hey, Elizabeth. Hey, Sean Elizabeth. And Liz, Liz, Liz, you and I started at Nurval around the same time. Also 12 years ago, if you can believe it. And after spending more than a decade studying American's finances, what's one thing you understand about money that you didn't when you started at NerdWallet?

Well, first off, shout out to the class of 2014, Ana. There's still a handful of us 12-yearers here left at NerdWallet. A lot's changed in 12 years for me. Number one, my credit score has gotten way up in my time at NerdWallet. But I would say one of the things that I've really learned is how incremental changes add up over time. So when I'm talking about like mid to long term financial goals, those little steps that you take really do have value and really do gain steam with time. And if you could give your 2014 self one piece of advice about money, what would it be? I think it would be learning what I just said a little bit sooner.

And even if I could go back before 2014 and tell myself that, like the small changes that you make over time make a big difference in the long run. Because when you're, you know, working towards long term financial goals, whether that's an emergency fund or buying a house or. saving for retirement, those little steps that you take every paycheck or every month kind of feel like you're going nowhere, but they really are going somewhere. And it would be reassuring to know that earlier. Also, that setbacks are normal when we're talking about these long-term goals. And so, like, unexpected car payments, sending a kid to college, like all of these things might feel like they're totally derailing your progress, but they're really not. It's just sort of like a pause in the path. Yeah, I had not even started saving for retirement before I started at nerd wallet. So I completely understand that.

Now, we often talk about the economy as if it's one thing, but people's experiences can be wildly different. What's the biggest disconnect that you've seen between headline economic indicators and how households are actually doing? Right now, the big disconnect that I see in the sort of conundrum that I spend a lot of time thinking about is consumer spending. So consumer spending is really robust and it has been really strong for the past few years, despite people feeling bad about the economy. And we typically know that when people feel bad about the economy, they spend less and they save more. And we're just not seeing that in the data. I think some of that can be explained by what we know is the K-shaped economy now, where the people with wealth and the high earners are really driving that spending. But my concern is that low and lower middle income people might be struggling and relying on debt to continue spending despite feeling bad about the economy and sort of the look of their household finances.

But that consumer spending puzzle is one that really interests me right now. Has there been kind of like a transition in what people have been spending on, say, six years ago, pre-pandemic to now? Well, I'm not sure about pre-pandemic to now. I think right now spending does sort of resemble pre-pandemic. There is some question as to whether the whole of consumer behavior when it comes to continuing to spend has been shaped by the pandemic. So recall after the pandemic how there was this period where everybody was like, Yolo. I guess we were saying that back then. But I wasn't clearly.

It didn't come out naturally. But, you know, when you were spending on things. that you couldn't during the pandemic. And it seems like perhaps maybe some of that has stuck around. And so we are continuing to spend more on experiences and being a little more laissez-faire about what it could mean for our future finances. Is there anything that surprised you when it comes to how Americans think about money? What surprises me is the persistence of a perspective in a certain demographic. And what I mean by that is if you have ever been in poverty, And I don't mean just like dealing with high prices and feeling like you've spent all your money at the end of the month, but true poverty.

You know that struggle can really make you savvy and really interesting ways. That hardship drives some creativity in how you manage money and how you manage debt and how you think about those things. So what surprises me about how people feel about finances is within the group of people that have never experienced that poverty or seen it firsthand, there's this persistence to not understand. that. Like, why are people using debt? You know, why are people relying on payday lending? And they just don't seem to get it. It surprises me, I think, because right now, I feel like we are more empathetic as people now than, you know, in the recent past. But the tendency for that sort of attitude to stick around has really surprised me. There's a lot of personal finance advice. We sling around here, obviously. What's one piece of conventional personal finance advice that holds up, in your opinion?

Save money. to put it as succinctly as possible, right? But money away. Save what you can and start early. And I think that is like the simplest advice and it is maybe the most conventional. But I also think it's the most valuable, whether you're talking about the value of having an emergency savings or starting a retirement savings early, Anna, like you, I didn't start until I got here. So I am still playing catch up. When you're in your 20s, you really don't see that payoff coming.

So it's easy to put it aside. And then also if you don't have a consistent income, it's hard to get started. So I'd say saving what you can and starting as early as possible is sort of like the go-to personal finance advice from my perspective. Our advice is always like six months of emergency savings, but really any kind of emergency savings helps. It's better than nothing. Absolutely. I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier, which is those incremental steps really do matter and they do add up. So yeah, if you don't have an emergency savings and you're starting with $50 a month or whatever the case may be, that is progress.

And what type of typical advice have you become less convinced of by over the years? Ooh, the American dream of homeownership. So I can sense like a collective nodding in the listening audience because it is so hard to buy a home right now. They are expensive and there aren't very many out there. And so the people that are coming of age right now and feeling like, oh, this is sort of this necessary step in making it as an adult. That's really discouraging. And so I feel like owning a home can be a good investment. Over my adulthood, I bought three.

The first one when I was 28, but that was 2006, right? That's right before the housing crisis. So if that gives you any idea, my home price. It's a different ballgame now. And I think holding yourself up to this standard that you have to buy a home to make it as an adult, you're going to be disappointed. I rent now and I am super happy renting. So I think, you know, owning a home can be a good investment, but it is not the end all of financial achievement. That makes me feel a lot better, Liz, so thank you.

No problem. That's something we've talked about before, but you've spent a lot of time looking at the gap between economic data and how people are actually feeling about the economy and their finances. What have you learned about why those two things can tell such different stories? There's a lot of reasons. It's a big topic. I think the biggest thing that I see repeatedly on the gap between the data and how people are feeling about the economy really boils down to the macro aggregates that we use to measure the economy. miss the nuance. Inflation actually is starting to look like it might be coming down now. And the labor market is still relatively steady when you're looking at these macro aggregates, but that's not

missing the issues that households are having. Right. If there's 4% unemployment, that's historically low, but that's over 7 million people that are looking for a job and can't find one, right? So, we can say unemployment is low and a 7 million people are going to be like, what? No way, because that's not their experience. So I think a lot of that disconnect is, between these big picture numbers that we use to judge the health of the economy missing what individual experiences are having. And so there's something about the economy that you think Americans pay too much attention to and something that they might pay too little attention to?

Some, if not many, people may be paying too much attention to those macro numbers that I just mentioned. So I'm an economist. I look at them, but I also practice really good compartmentalization when it comes to thinking about my own finances. What's happening in the economy could be really great or it could be done. doom and gloom, but I can't let that impact necessarily my immediate decisions or how I'm feeling about my financial security. So I would say if there's something you might be paying

too much attention to, it's those macro big picture headlines. And then something people could pay more attention to, the flip side of that, their personal situation and the things that they can control. Yeah, money is very personal. Now, a big theme in your work is financial resilience. What is being financially resilient actually look like to you after seeing the data on how people weather economic shocks, like layoffs and inflation, the kind that we've been seeing in the last few years. It's not just about your ability to withstand economic trouble from like a financial perspective, but it's also about your feelings about your finances. So financial resilience has to do with how confident you feel in your ability to handle those economic

setbacks, how much control you have or feel that you have over your financial decisions. But then it also has real measurements, right? Like, so do you have? savings on hand, should somebody lose a job, or can you rely on credit if need be? So I think resilience is really a matter of a bunch of things, both those that can be measured with numbers and checkboxes and those that are more sort of subjective. Speaking of measuring resilience, Nerdwalt's latest consumer financial resilience index barely budged from July to August, even with high inflation, a weakening labor market, and renewed geopolitical uncertainty. Can you talk about what the latest is?

findings tell us about the financial health of American households? It goes back to macro numbers. We really believe macro numbers are shaping households and their conditions when those macro numbers really don't tell the full story, right? So the list of things you just rattled off, for example, we could, you know, infer that if inflation is still high and it's hard to find a job, then people and households are not going to be very financially resilient. But those big macro picture headlines, again, are only telling this sort of like national average picture that definitely doesn't touch each household. So our index features both feelings and real factors.

So we're asking people about their confidence and do they feel secure. And then we're asking them if they have $1,000 in an emergency fund. So I think when you pair all of those things together, the index can fall subject to that gap between data and sentiment. But I do feel like it's a really good measure of what's going on, boots on the ground and individual households across the country. Now, if someone listening is trying to make, quote, good financial decisions, but they're feeling overwhelmed by those big scary headlines out there about the economy. What would you tell them the focus on? Only the things within their control.

I mean, like, you don't really have control over the unemployment rate or inflation. I mean, as far as economic policy goes, you can exert some control and the people that you vote for and following that trail. from the data to what you have control over. But I would say focus on what you can control in your personal finances. So what you're saving, what your long-term professional or income plans are and how you're managing debt. You know, you have to just learn when and how to tune out those big headlines. And what would you tell them to tune out? Number one, tuning out doesn't have to mean staying blissfully ignorant. I hear people say that, especially in regards to politics right now. Well, I just don't talk about it, right? It doesn't have to be that way. Like you can stay abreast of the

economic news and not have an impact your well-being or your state of mind as long as it's not impacting your actual household financial picture. What I use is compartmentalization. Like I use the headline economic picture to do my job and to communicate what's going on in the economy. But I don't like when I'm sitting down to pay bills, you know, grumble about inflation the whole time or anything like that. So I think learning to tune out the noise and to judge like, okay, what's impacting me right now versus what is just what's going on in the broader economy. And some of that is also tuning out the noise and learning to really hone in on the facts. Right.

Like gas prices are something that affects you regularly, but maybe import, export data isn't. Exactly. Totally. Yeah. All right. Let me jump in here and join the conversation because I have thoughts. And something I'm thinking, Elizabeth, every time that you come on, I'm reminded that the economy has seasons. But the financial principles that we teach, the fundamentals don't change much, right?

So I think that's something that helps me, whether it's high gas prices, groceries, being out of control, rent prices going up. The only things I can control, like we're saying, are my income, my expenses, and my debt in some situation. So I think those are kind of just the pillars that we all have to hold on to. Absolutely. I mean, things are going to change in the economy throughout the year and year over year, but I think really staying true to their own financial philosophy, I guess, and your long-term goals and recognizing like, hey, my retirement balance might change as the stock market moves, like, it might get worse. Generally speaking, it'll probably get better again.

Like, you know, learning how to write out those headlines is a good thing to keep in mind. Yeah. And something else that stands out to me, thinking about your experience at NERBOL and all you've done over these past 12 years and your work as an economist is how you really deeply understand how complicated the economy can be. But to your point at the beginning, that it's really important for everyone to focus on the simpler things. Like really spend less than you earn, save and invest the rest.

And that's kind of what you came to at the very beginning. And I think focusing on that and tuning out some of the same. the complexity while understanding that there are a lot of factors pulling the economy can help people just navigate these things day to day and maybe not feel so bogged down and bad by the economy. Right, absolutely. Like, we don't have to all be fascinated by all the ins and outs of economic theory. We are inundated with information all over the place. We don't all have to be experts.

And I think you're right, Sean. I think focusing on sort of the stuff that's impacting you is the way to go for the vast majority of people. And can I just say that you need to quote, I'm going to misquote you, but you said something about the pause and the journey. like when you first started out and how we have all these plans and sometimes you might have a big expense. But, you know, hopefully if you're doing the right things, you still end up where you need to be. And that was such a relief for me because I've recently been looking at my retirement numbers again. And I'm like, oh, my God, how much do I need to save to retire in 10 years? Close your ears, managers.

And, you know, I'm just like, oh, my gosh, you know, and worrying. And it's just like, it's all going to work out. It's going to be fine. Just keep doing what you're doing. It'll all work out in the end. Yeah, definitely. keep plugging away at it. All right, Liz, I'm going to miss you so much.

I'm going to get a little misty-eyed here. But do you have any final words of wisdom? I don't know. I feel like we covered all of my words of wisdoms, guys. But, you know, thanks for having me on all of these times over the past several years. I mean, it's been great. It's been fun to watch the podcast grow. And hopefully when I'm wearing a new hat somewhere else, I can come back for a visit sometime.

We are already looking for excuses to drag you back on smart money. So I'm sure we'll talk soon, Liz. Anna, Liz, thank you so much for coming on. And Liz, we are going to follow you wherever you go. So we're going to be stalking you on LinkedIn. I don't know if you're on social media, but I'm going to go find out so that we can continue seeing your work. Excellent. Thank you so much.

And that's all we've got for this episode. Remember, folks, send us your money questions. You can leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730 nerd. You can also email us at podcast at nerdwollot.com or leave us a comment on Spotify or YouTube. Join us next time to talk about home buying through a queer lens. But until then, we want you to follow smart money on your favorite podcast app that might be Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or IHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes. Here's our brief disclaimer.

We are not your financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general, educational, and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances. Some companies mentioned in this episode may be nerd-walled partners, but does not influence how we talk about them. And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.