NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast - Feeling Burned Out? How to Know When to Quit Your Job — and What to Do First

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

Learn how your habits and the cash and cards in your wallet reveal your money mindset, then learn how to know when it’s time to quit your job. What amount of cash should you keep on hand? Should you “quiet quit” or make a clean break from your job? Hosts Sean Pyles and Elizabeth Ayoola discuss everyday wallet decisions and career change trade-offs to help you understand how everyday money habits and major career choices can strengthen your financial stability. They begin with a candid, “What’s in Your Wallet?” segment, revealing what they keep close and providing some tips and throughs on keeping a small emergency cash stash, rotating rewards cards wisely, and avoiding risky wallet habits like storing everything in your car. Then, Tess Vigeland, Smart Money producer and author of Leap: Leaving a Job with No Plan B to Find the Career and Life You Really Want, joins Sean and Elizabeth to help answer a listener’s question about whether they should quit their job or simply “quiet quit.” They discuss building a “freedom fund” before quitting, ways to reduce workload without burning bridges, the realities of healthcare and benefits if you leave your job, how today’s labor market affects timing, and why giving yourself reflection time can clarify your next step. Card benefits, terms and fees can change. For the most up-to-date information about cards mentioned in this episode, read our reviews: American Express Gold Card Review: Dining Rewards Royalty https://www.nerdwallet.com/reviews/credit-cards/american-express-premier-rewards-gold  American Express Platinum Review: Top-Notch Lounge Access, Big Credits https://www.nerdwallet.com/reviews/credit-cards/american-express-platinum  Want us to review your budget? Fill out this form — completely anonymously if you want — and we might feature your budget in a future segment! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScK53yAufsc4v5UpghhVfxtk2MoyooHzlSIRBnRxUPl3hKBig/viewform?usp=header In their conversation, the Nerds discuss: quiet quitting, emergency fund, freedom fund, how much cash to keep at home, what to keep in your wallet, wallet organization, travel credit cards, cashback card strategy, debit vs credit, remote work burnout, career change planning, leave a job without plan b, how to quit without burning bridges, lateral move vs new job, reduce workload tips, using AI at work, outsource repetitive tasks, referral risk when underperforming, healthcare after quitting, benefits when changing jobs, real estate license costs, FIRE financial independence retire early, savings goals at 29, HSA spending, high deductible health plan, emergency cash vs card, labor market trends, employee engagement Gallup, identity beyond work, partner concerns about quitting, building a freedom fund timeline, cash vs digital payments, keeping cards safe, rotating cards for categories, smart travel rewards use, backup plan before quitting, burnout signs, and when to leave a job. To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email [e-mail]. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Did you lock the front door? Check. Close the garage door? Yep. Installed window sensors, smoke sensors, and HD cameras with night vision? No. And you set up credit card transaction alerts, a secure VPN for a private connection,

and continuous monitoring for our personal info on the dark web? Uh, I'm looking into it. Stress less about security. Choose security solutions from TELUS for peace of mind at home and online. Visit tellus.com slash total security to learn more. Conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here.

Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move. Lift with confidence, while Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-training tread plus at OnePeloton.ca. What's in your wallet, Elizabeth? Money, Sean. Lots of money. Well, I would hope there will be lots of money, but I'm kidding.

I hardly carry any cash, so I have cards, lots of cards in there. You've got plastic money in your wallet. Basically, I got play money. And what else do you have in there? I think I also have a CVS rewards card somewhere in there, and also one for Kroger as well. Well, let's actually pull out our wallets and see what's in them. Welcome to NerdWollets Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions, and we answer them

with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Piles. And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. Later in this episode, we're going to talk about career changes and also how to know when it's time to leave a job that just ain't working out anymore. And how to prepare financially for that possibility. But first, a new segment that we're hoping

you all will help us out with. It's called What's in your wallet. And we'd love for you to send us voicemails or videos of you opening your wallets to see what exactly is in there. Maybe take a step from a favorite concert, photo of your kids, some dirt from your garden, just speaking for myself there. I was going to say that sounds like your business, Sean.

But anyway, we're nosy and we want to know your business. We want to know how many credit cards you carry around. Do you have a George Costanza wallet, or do you have no wallet and just use your phone? Send us your audio and video at podcast at nerdwollet.com. Just don't show us anything too personal. In the meantime, while you're all going through your phones to make your videos, Sean and I got in a conference room together in Scottsdale, Arizona, last month at NerdWall, HQ, and we cracked open our wallets for inspection. Now, here's our What's in Your Wallet segment, taped in person.

Okay, well, we're going to try a new segment where we explore what's in our wallets and see what it says about who we are as people, as money managers, and also what kind of embarrassing secrets we might be hiding in our wallets right now. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it because I think after this I'm going to feel closer to you, Sean. I think so too. And listeners, if you want to share what's in your wallets, we are so nosy. We would love to hear and see what's in your wallet. So let's do this. I'll go first. I'll start by describing my wallet. ASMR. It's a thin blue card holder with a little slot in the middle for some cash. I have my real ID in the state of Oregon, which I recently got. I was very late to the party there, but I have it. Next, I have a little metro card from New York. I use when I visit my friends there. I also have a hotel room key because I'm here in Scottsdale, Arizona. I'm a little team builder with the smart money folks right now.

My health insurance card. What else is in here? A bunch of sand. I have so much sand in my wallet right now. Where's the sand from? I've been bringing my wallet to the river all summer in Oregon. And then I have my MX gold card, my primary travel credit card. And let's see, let's see.

Savor one card. This is my reliable cashback workhorse. I use it for groceries a lot. And my credit union debit card don't use that all so often. And let's see, even more sand. In the middle, I have, I have some cash. Let's see how much I have. Five, ten, $30, $31, 32, 33,

23, plus five. That is $41, I think. That's math. And look at this a fortune cookie. It says, Loving is sharing rainbows of happiness. And sharing your money. So how much you're giving me, Sean?

That's it. None of it. All going back in there for the drag shows I need to attend. Oh, I love it. Well, that was intriguing. Tip your drag queens, everyone. Yeah. So why do you keep cash?

I feel a little ashamed because I have zero cash in my car. And I should know better because when Hurricane Barrel hit Texas last year and I need food and all the ATMs and everything was down. I had no cash yet still. Here I am with no cash. Well, here's a little tip for you. I keep around $500 of cash in my house at all times for worst case scenarios like that. Why I have cash on my person right now, I can't really tell you. Oh, I can't tell you. My hairstylist only takes cash. So I had to get out some money for that and I have some leftover. Why I have this amount is shocking. I never have this much cash on me. Maybe I was feeling generous with myself.

I don't know. But really, Sean, like, in this economy, what are we going to buy with $40 anyway? Like, Starburst? Yeah. But it makes me feel kind of responsible that I could just buy something with cash. And also, I'm totally in line with the girl math mentality that cash is not real money because it already pulled out of my account. So I can just buy whatever I want really nilly.

And it doesn't matter. And listener, we want to hear from you. Like, who actually takes cash out and puts it back in anyway? Not me. Exactly. So I think once it's out, it's not. spent. Well, Sean, I do have another follow-up question about your fortune cookie, and then I'll tell you a little, you know, thing of why we're synergized when you tell me why you have that in your

wallet. Because I'm sentimental, and I believe in the power of serendipity. And I just thought it was really charming and sweet. And loving is sharing rainbows of happiness. Like, how correct is that? That is so sweet. And for all the people out there who may be rolling their eyes because they're not so serendipitous. How did you say that? What's the word serendipitous? Thanks. Sentimental and serendipitous. For those who aren't exactly what Sean said, I just want to remind you that you can find joy in the little listings, like the fortune cookie thingy that you keep in your wallet. Life is hard enough as it is.

Find little moments of happiness anywhere you can get them. And because we are maybe Twin Flames, I also have a fortune cookie, but I keep it in my car. Oh, that's so sweet. What does it say? I wish I could remember. But it's something about... But it brings you a little bit of joy every time you see it. Exactly.

So it's something about art and creativity and happiness. So that's all the things. And, you know, in some ways, it's great. great that you forget it because each time it's like it's new to you. I just love you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, okay, that's my wallet. I don't think there's anything really embarrassing. I'm pretty proud of the contents of my wallet. Yeah. You have your different cards that are using for different purposes. You have your Metro bus card and I think you look like a responsible adult based on your wallet. Thank you. I agree. Now let's turn the tables and what's in your wallet? What is your

wallet? Well, I would like to start off by saying my wallet is invisible because I do not care. one when I travel. What are you talking about? We are traveling to Scottsdale, Arizona, for work, and you did not bring a wallet with you? No, that is my practice. So I take two cards with me. It's usually my ID and then one of my credit cards. That's all I take. I could never do that. It's so chaotic, Elizabeth. I know, but I just love it. But what if you lose your credit card? What if you lose your ID? What if you need something to hold your hotel card in? I'm so sorry to be a tech forward girly, but you know, we have online banking. We have Zelle for someone to send me money. We have a cash app. There are so many avenues for me to get money and get myself out of that mess.

And guess what it would make for a good story, okay? That's true. But for me, I'm just, I want a backup plan for my backup plan and not having a wallet does not allow for that. Well, I like to live life on the edge. So hey, just let me live a little. It makes me so anxious, but I'm glad it works for you. It works for me.

So I will tell y'all, you know, I'm a TMI queen. So I'll tell you what I have here. Yes, your two cards. Tell us what you have. So I have my Amex Platinum and then I have my driver's license, which I recently got because I moved to Texas last year because I tell y'all my business, y'all might know. You're an annual fee girly because that's Amnix Platinum. That's not cheap. Do you know what? I am an annual fee girly and I'm trying to change that. So I have in my

actual wallet, I think all of my credit cards have annual fees. So I need to fix that and I have four. That sounds expensive. And you know where your wallet is at home. Oh, so you guys might stone me for this, but I keep my wallet in my car at all times. No, Elizabeth. I told you. I know. I'm a risky girl. I'm a risky girl. Someone could just smash and grab, and then there go all your credit cards. I know. So let me tell you the logic. And now also, guess what everyone listening knows where you keep your wallet right now.

Yeah, but thankfully no one knows where I live. Not yet. I overshare, but I'm not sharing that. No, but I do keep it in my car because I can be forgetful. And, like, I hate to be the girl who gets to the grocery store and it's like, oh, no, I don't have any cards. And I do not use Apple Pay or all those things. So I do keep it in my car in a, I think, quote unquote, hidden place. But yes, there is a risk if someone breaks into my car, all my cards will be gone.

But why don't you just keep it in your house where it's safer? I don't understand. So I'm trying to save myself time here, right? So I might need the different cards. Let me tell you the other things I have. I have my HSA card. So I have a health savings account. So I use that to pay for medical expenses, my debit card for my high deductible health care plan.

And what else do I have other debit cards? And that's it, really. Just a whole bunch of cards, you know, credit cards. So you're using your car as like an administrative storage space instead of like a desk drawer. And let me tell you something else. Since I've been learning how to be. more savvy with my cards. I swap the ones I have in my wallet at different times of the month. So sometimes my grocery cards are in there, depending on my closing date for my cards,

because I try to pay all my cards off in full. If I've spent to my maximum on one card, then I switch to another, and that goes in, you know, so I just do a rotation and it all happens in my car. Yeah. I'm just hearing chaos. That's how I like to live. It's fun, okay? And it works for you. And that's fine. We talk all the time about it's not exactly what you do. It's a system that works for you, and you have one that works for you. It is not for me at all, but I'm glad that is your truth. And we are bonded by our shared fortune cookies.

We are. That's it. We are. So a lot of times parents will have photos of their kids in their wallet. Do you have that? I know it's a little bit maybe antiquated at this point. Well, I do still like physical photos. I actually just printed some out, so not antiquated to me.

However, I do not have one in my wallet, but I do have several in my car. So it's essentially in your wallet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just loading around because your car is your wallet. That's what I'm gathering. Wow. Oh, look at the connection you just made there. This is why conversation is important.

Exactly. My car is my wallet. You're right. Do you ever have loose cash just floating around your car? Do you have cash in your wallet? I think of the first time I had a dollar. That's it. There's just one lonely dollar in there.

And now you can't really buy anything with a dollar, can you? Not much, no. And let me tell you a quick little side story since I like a side quest. We were at a restaurant in my son the other day and I said, you know, if you finish that crossword puzzle, I thought about the dollar in my car, give you a dollar. And then he's like, I need time to think about it. He was not interested in that dollar. He was like, maybe if he gave me 10 or 20. With inflation, the kids just need more and more.

So the dollar's still in my car. He did not do the crossword puzzle, and he was not interested in the $1. Well, maybe you need to keep more cash in your car. Maybe, maybe. Oh, and by the way, our producer is cracking up right next to us right now. You hear a random lady laughing. So, Elizabeth, one last question. Is there anything weird in your wallet slash car slash qualet?

trying to combine these two words. Well, this is a loaded question. So I would say the weirdest thing is where I stashed my wallet things in my car. Which is the car, yeah, absolute chaos, again. It is chaos. But is there anything weird in my wallet? Not quite. But if we're extending that to the car,

probably this little candle that's melting that my dad gave me for safety. So he put a little... Is it melting because it's just hot in your car? It's not lit in your car. It's been there for years, no. As long as you don't have an open flame in the car that is your wallet. No. I would be really concerned for you.

I hope not. No, no, no, no, no. It's just a little candle, and it's shrinking and shrinking and soon it will disappear. So it has been in my car for maybe like four years now. That sounds really cute. Yeah, but it's loving because he wants to be. Another little sentimental piece. Exactly. I love that. All right, listeners, we want to know what you have in your wallet too, okay? So if you're like me and your wallet is in your car, please tell me so that Sean can stop thinking that I'm so weird because I know there's someone else out there who lives like me. And maybe you're more like Sean and you have just very normal things in your wallet. We want to know. Send us pictures. send us a voicemail, text, email to podcast and nerdwollet.com. Or you can text us or leave us a voicemail at the nerd hotline, which is 901-730-6373-901-730 nerd.

Ah, okay, Sean, that was super fun, and I really hope listeners will send us videos of what's in their wallets. And if you're listening, yes, I'm talking about you. And people don't look in your wallets ahead of time. We want the pure, unfiltered discovery of what is in your wallet like we did. Send us what's in your wallet to podcast at nerdwollot.com. Meantime, we also want your money questions, so leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. It's 901-730 nerd. All right, let's get to this episode's money question segment.

That's up next. Stay with us. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at BestWestern. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. What a run!

This champ is picking up speed. Well, they found a lane. Phenomenal launch into the air. Absolutely incredible. Air Transat! Fly the seven-time world's best leisure airline champions, Air Transat. We're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode's question comes from a listener named Angel who sent us an email.

Here it is, as read by our producer, Tess Vigland. Hi, Sean and Elizabeth. I'm 29 without kids, and I moved into my fiancé's small college town because we are getting married soon. I moved about a year ago and went from an in-office to remote position in tech. It pays really well, but the remote aspect has taken a toll on my mental sanity and has ultimately led to burnout. Moving back is not an option because my future husband doesn't have the option to work remotely,

and he also has a high-paying job, much higher-paying job, although, not in tech. We individually have upwards of half a million saved up each, and I want to take a pause on my personal fire goals to address my career crisis. I want to either go back to school or get some licenses to complement the real estate business we've been expanding. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but my future husband is really pushing back on the situation. He seems worried that I won't be able to get back my current remote position or something similar if I leave and regret it. He suggests quiet quitting, or in other words, being a low performer as I invest myself into the next opportunity, I'd rather be clear with my employer and start my new journey with a

clean slate and no burnout or burned bridges. Your advice is much appreciated in this critical moment, Angel. Wow, Angel has a big dilemma here and I think it's a relevant one. So let's start the conversation by getting into what quiet quitting is. So as Angel briefly explained, quiet quitting is about doing the bare minimum at work, so that means you're not going above and beyond, not breaking your back for your employer. Instead, you're simply meeting your basic job requirements, but you're not fully engaged at work. Now, I came across a Gallup study, and it found that employee engagement in the U.S. fell to its lowest level in a decade in 24. Only 31% of employees were engaged. Now, I don't know if you guys remember back in

2022 when the trend first blew up on social media, but Gallup also found that Quiet Quirters made up about 50% of the workforce then? You know, this number doesn't surprise me. I feel like a lot of my friends and family have had phases of quiet quitting where they think, okay, this month I'm really burnt out. I have things going on in my personal life. The world is on fire. I can't be expected to give 110% at my job all day, every day, given everything else

is going on in my life and in the world. And I understand that. I think that sometimes it can make sense to step back and not be the overachiever. And I say this as someone who is a chronic overachiever and holds myself to a pretty high standard at my job. Oh, my goodness. I can relate. And I think it's important to remember we're not robots. So yes, we have X amount of work output that we're expected to do. But we're humans and we have feelings and things going on. Yeah. Have you ever quiet quit, Elizabeth? Why would I tell you that? Oh, my God. We're saying on your employer's podcast. But in previous roles maybe, or have you had a time where you could really at least relate to someone quiet quitting?

Oh, I can definitely relate, not saying it was ever me, but I. I can relate to someone I know and a friend of a friend of a friend quiet quitting, absolutely, because they were really tired and burnt out and they were underpaid as well. Yeah, you got to look out for number one. That's right.

All right, let's pivot to the listener's question now. Angel wants to know whether it makes more sense to quiet quit while they pursue other interests like going back to school or getting a real estate license. But there's a big butt. Their partner is pushing back as they think it will be challenging

to get another remote opportunity. It seems like Angel is actually in a pretty decent position to potentially. quit or quiet quit. I mean, we don't know what their latest performance review was like at work, but financially they have upwards of half a million saved at 29 years old with no kids. So they are well ahead what most folks are doing and where they are at that stage in life. The average retirement savings for people under 35 is just over $49,000 and the median amount is just under

19,000. So again, doing really, really well here. But that doesn't mean that leaving their job entirely is the best idea. I agree with that, Sean. And I also suspect that Angel and their partner may be saving aggressively, considering they want to achieve fire, who I know Angel said specifically she had fire goals. For anyone who doesn't know what that is, that's financial independence, retire early. And we love that for Angel. But their concern seems to really be about wanting to give work 100% or flat out quit versus going down the road of quiet quitting. So let's explore the pros and cons of quiet quitting. You go first, Sean. Name some pros. Okay, well, a main pro that comes to mind is better work-life balance and less burnout. I think that's something that everyone

should strive for. Also, having less stress in your life, there's this pressure that some people put on themselves or people's employers put on them to be constantly performing and outperforming, maybe working more than eight hours a day, and not really having a lot of room for other aspects of your life, not being able to turn off work. You have to respond to Slack messages at 8 p.m. at night, and quiet quitting would allow you to maybe have some remove from that. Another perk that comes to mind of quiet quitting is that you can focus on just your main responsibilities without, again, this added pressure of having to go above and beyond and maybe becoming the most efficient, productive, all-star employee, which isn't realistic a lot of the time. It's not. It's not. As a

recovering, still like to try to achieve high, but as a recovering person who put too much pressure on theirself to constantly be overperforming, it does feel nice to have a better balance these days. Yeah. Well, let's talk about some of the cons here, Elizabeth. What stands out as a downside to quiet quitting? I think Angel pointed out a pretty big downside, which is that it could negatively impact your image at work. If you already have set the standard of being someone who is maybe an overperformer or just, you know, goes above and beyond, a sudden or dramatic change in your output could reflect negatively on you, especially if you're not keeping the same quality of work as you were before. It could also impact your ability, I would think, maybe to get a strong referral in

your next role. Referrals can be really important. And if you are underperforming because you're quiet quitting, we're not saying that you have to underperform to quiet quit. But if you do, become a lot more slack, then you may not get a strong referral if you need one for another role. And a big one that stands out to me is that it could lead to you feeling unfulfilled at work. I think when you enjoy or are passionate about something, you usually give it 100% right, because you like doing it. But if you're quiet quitting and you've also lost interest in your job or the things that light you up, then it means that, like the study said, you're probably not going to be fully engaged. And then you just may feel really unfulfilled, which can suck.

I get that, but I think it's also a good idea for folks to find fulfillment outside of their work. And if people are stepping back from their main job, they're quiet quitting, that can lead them to maybe pursue enrichment elsewhere through hobbies or volunteering or relationships because we are not our jobs. Our jobs are a thing that we hopefully love to do and do it well, but it shouldn't be your entire life. Oh, I completely agree with that. And I think at one point I had to realize that I needed to get a life too. So that's why I'm painting and writing my pink bike and doing other things that bring me joy outside of work, right? Yes. I think another alternative or an alternative to quite quitting since Angel seems to be worried about burning bridges and their reputation

is actively looking for ways to reduce their workload. What are your thoughts on that, Sean? I think that's smart because they would be able to sustain their job, but not hopefully feel as pressured or stressed out or overworked as it seems like they are currently. So some ways people could do that would be maybe utilizing AI. We see it everywhere in our lives. How can it take some menial tasks off your plate? Also, maybe talk with your manager and say, hey, I'm having a pretty stressful season in my life. Are there certain things that I might be able to step back from while still meeting my expectations so that you all, are in alignment on what's expected of you and you're doing your job the way you need to,

but you aren't doing it in a way that's not sustainable for you right now. Yeah, I love, love, love that. Something that just came to mind as you were talking as well is considering a lateral move within the company. I know that's not always feasible for everyone, but maybe you can find a role that's a little less tasking or stressful for you or a new opportunity that fits your lifestyle if you've just had some lifestyle changes that's making work more stressful. Another one is negotiating, outsourcing repetitive tasks that are not core to your job.

So I know some companies sometimes have contractors, for example, so maybe you can speak to a manager or someone at your company to see if some of your work can be essentially given to contractors. All right. Well, let's move on to the last part of Angel's question and Angel's partner's concerns. And I think they're pretty valid. Recent economic data points to a slowing labor market. And we're seeing that it's taking longer for workers to find a new job. And we don't know where the economy will be by the time Angel is ready to get back to work. So quitting without having anything lined up is a really risky move for a lot of people.

And it's one that I'm pretty wary of. On that note, we're going to bring on an expert in quitting without a plan B. And you guys are not going to be able to guess, but it happens to be our producer, Tess Viglin. She's back again. Hey, Tess. Welcome to the front of the mic. Hey, thanks, guys. Am I going to be editing myself after we're done here?

I think you know the answer is yes. So the reason we wanted to bring you on is that you literally wrote the book on quitting without a backup plan. It's called Leap, Leaving a Job with No Plan B to find the career in life you really want. So tell us, why did you quit? What job did you have?

And what was it like quitting with no other job secured? Well, I had my dream job. I hosted a national show for NPR and I was there for almost a dozen years. and I hosted a personal finance show, which might be familiar to you guys. And so I knew that you never, ever, ever, ever, ever leave a job without having something else lined up. I preached it on my own show.

But about 11 years in, there were just some things that were happening at work, things that were said at work, that, you know, I was leaving in tears way more often than I should have. Oh, no. And I just reached a point where I said, I've had enough. I can't do this anymore. And I went and sat in my backyard in Pasadena, California, and said, I got to go. And I did. Wow, that is so brave. And you guys may or may not know, I have quit multiple jobs, but never without one lined up.

I will say that. So I think that takes a lot of courage to do. So well done to you, Tess. Thank you, Elizabeth. I do want to know how you manage that financially, though. I think that's my biggest scare of quitting a job without another one lined up. So did you already have savings in place? No.

You didn't have savings? Well, I mean, I had savings, but I certainly didn't have, again, even though I was hosting a personal fight-hide show, Dr. Heel thyself, I had not really thought about doing this, so I hadn't really planned for it. It was very much a spur-of-the-moment decision, which, you know, we're not supposed to do in our lives, but sometimes you're. can't help yourself. I was married at the time, so we had a two-income family, and that made a difference. I also knew that because I had a long career behind me, that I probably was going to be able to get some freelance work, contracting work, which is what ended up happening. And then I ended up getting a book contract. So that took up some of my time and added to the bank account. But again, I would say, do as I say, not as I did, and have that emergency

fund have that financial backup plan ready. But I also would say that Angel is already way ahead on this with a really good chunk of savings lined up, right? So maybe this isn't the primary consideration for them. And it seems like you went a much more unconventional path than Angel who's planning on staying in the college town where their partner has a job. You went and traveled around Asia in countries that were pretty affordable to stay in. So I'm sure that helped financially, right? It did for sure, yeah. I ended up about three years after leaving my job. And after the book came out, I went and just traveled for about three years, as you said, throughout Southeast Asia and the Middle East. And kind of did a first retirement is what I call it. And then came back to the workforce. Over those three years before you went to Asia, were you doing kind of odd jobs here and there? Like you mentioned you had experience and some connections. So were you able to bring some money? And it's not like you were not working entire. Yes. I mean, in fact, I ended up bringing in almost as much as what my salary had been. I was very fortunate that, you know, because of my name and a long career, people wanted to work with me. So, yeah, in fact, it wasn't even odd jobs. It was a lot of very high profile jobs and, of course, becoming a book author. So that's incredible. I was going to ask about benefits like health care, but at this time you were married, so I assume you were on your partner's health care. Okay. Because if you're doing this and you're single, health care is really expensive. Absolutely. That should be a

big consideration if you're making a move like this. I can relate with the freelancing. It comes in so handy. I know when I've been in between jobs, freelancing has saved my life. So always good to have transferable skills. It is. And one thing that I found and that, you know, Angel might want to consider is that when you've been doing something for a long time, I mean, they're only 29, so it hasn't been a really long time. But you kind of forget how good you are at something because it's become just part of your DNA. They said they're in tech. Maybe they're a coder. It becomes not difficult for you, and you don't realize how valuable your skills are because they're just what you do day in and day out. So it's something to really think about is the skills that you have that you might not recognize are really valuable outside of what you do.

Tess, for your book, you interviewed dozens of other people who had left their jobs without having another one lined up. What were some of the common lessons that came out of those conversations? There were some surprisingly common ones, even though obviously everybody has their own story. but first and foremost, pay attention to your body's signals because your body will tell you when you need to leave a job. And for me, my hair started falling out. And there was no other reason for that to be happening. Some people had back problems that were new.

Some people started getting headaches. So your body is going to tell you if you are so stressed out that you need to make a significant change. It's also time to go when you have too much self-respect to stay. So this is really more about when you're in a situation where you feel unappreciated, where you feel like you're not getting the kind of good attention that you've earned in your career. So that's just something to kind of keep track of as well. It's also past time to go if you're starting to ask yourself if you should go because we as human beings, we delay stuff like this because of fear, because we're worried that it's not going to work out. So by the time we make this decision, by the time we start asking ourselves if this is something we should do, we're way into that process.

Yeah, that makes me think about your experience where these things can happen very slowly and then very suddenly. Exactly. You've had this long buildup of accumulating stress in your body and then you just said, this is it, I'm done. I have to be out today. Yep. One of the other commonalities was, of course, save, save, don't do what I did, save for the eventuality of something like this. Call it a freedom fund, because that's really what it is. It's the freedom to make a move like this at any point, at any time in your life. And then, again, kind of what Sean was talking about earlier, get yourself an identity outside of what you do for a living, because that's one of the hardest parts of all this is that we particularly in America,

we identify ourselves so much with what we do for work. Absolutely. And that's not all we are. And so if you have something outside of your work that's important to you, that means something to you, that can make a move like this much, much easier. I will say I knew someone who retired early and they didn't have an identity outside of work. And guess what they did, guys? They went back to. Oh, jeez.

Sorry. They went back to work. The morbidity jumped out. We saw that. They went back to work. So now they're working again because they don't know what to do themselves all. Yeah, I think it's really common in retirement. And when you're facing a decision like Angel is, it can kind of feel almost, you know, kind of like I described it as a first retirement. So that is

absolutely a concern. Well, I have a question, test, before we get ready to wrap up. Was it hard to hop back into the market and find a job because that's Angel's spouse's main concern here? Given the numbers that Sean cited earlier about the current job market, I think that's something that you absolutely have to look at as part of the decision-making process. That said, for me, it wasn't difficult because, again, I had a long career. I had a long history of work, so I was able to get contract work fairly easily. But that's not always the case. And again, your mileage may vary, but it's always better to prepare and have that emergency fund, have that freedom fund ready for you in an eventuality like this.

It seems like part of this conversation is also industry specific too. It is. You've been working in media for a while when you were getting back into media after having had your first mini retirement. It was a different landscape than it is now. So it might be harder to do something like you pulled off in today's day and age. 100%. You want to take a look at the economy.

You want to take a look at your job market. You want to take a look at your industry. but don't let those keep you from making a decision that is best for you, for your health, and for your family. Yeah, it's like you have to be informed, but you also have to do what's right for your heart, too. Exactly. Yeah, everything's not all about money, even though we're on a podcast about money. Right, right, exactly. Tess, you have dropped so many gems.

So to wrap it up nicely in a nice little bow, can you tell us what advice you would give Angel as they consider making their own career leap? What's one strong piece of advice that you would give them? Oh, just one. Yeah. You know, one thing that we haven't talked about outside of the emergency fund making decisions that are best for you is, if possible, give yourself a little bit of time between when you leap, when you make this decision and when you go on to the next thing, give yourself a little bit of room to breathe and reflect on what you really want to be doing. Most people don't do that. Again, when they quit, they're either going immediately into the next job or even if they quit without having something else lined up. They're spending all that time busy, busy, busy working to find that next thing. And they're not giving themselves the opportunity for a little bit of self-reflection. And I found for myself and for all of the folks that I talked to for the book, that really was important. And it brought out some things in those decision-making processes, particularly around what kind of career do you want to have, what kind of life do you want to have, that you need a little bit of kind of silent time,

not actual silence, but it's like non-work time to figure that out for yourself. So even if it's two weeks, just give yourself that time to reflect and to gather yourself and figure out what you want to do and then get ready for that next step. Well, Tess, thank you so much for talking with us. It's so nice to have you on this side of the microphone, even though we talk to you all day, every day on the other side of the mic. Oh, it's been fun, guys. Thanks for having me on. It has been. And because I'm extra tests, are you for quiet quitting? Yes or no? I would say no. I don't think it's helpful. I think, as you guys outlined earlier, it's just going to make you feel crappy. You're not going to want to be where you are. Your boss is probably

going to notice. As Elizabeth said, you might burn some bridges, which is the very last thing you want to do. So just make a decision. Don't just draw it out for yourself. I just can't imagine that that's really what you want to do and what anyone else is going to want you to do. This is where we disagree to us. Okay. I actually think quiet can be really helpful.

I think it can allow people to compartmentalize their work and not have it consume their entire identity. And if someone is feeling so stressed out the way that you were, I mean, sometimes people have really difficult bosses and it's really hard to get away where they're working these really difficult hours and it's just not totally feasible to compartmentalize it in this way. But if you have the ability to do so, I think that can be a nice way to get the best of both worlds where you have an income coming in. You're stepping a little bit away from your work and you can have maybe an hour or two a day where you were heads down working to focus on what you might want to do next. So I think there's a time and a place for it, but you just don't want to get caught by your boss. Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying, and I suppose part of that is also, as we were talking before, like, it's industry base. Like, can you do that? There's absolutely no way I could have done that in the job that I was in. Yeah. And to what extent are you going to take it, right? I mean, what you've outlined Sean, I think probably really makes sense. But if you're just going to sit there and be a low performer, that's not going to do anybody any good. I think quiet quitting is biting time. It's just delaying the inevitable because you have to make a decision, but it can allow you to get a little bit of wiggle room while you map out what you might want to do next. Wiggle room is always helpful. All right. Well, thank you, Tess. Good debate, guys.

All right. Tess, we would love for you to do the honors of wrapping us up. Oh, do I get to say the phone number? Yes. The nerd hotline is all yours, Tess. All right. You know, I should have this memorized, but I'm going to read it off the script. And that is all we have for this episode. Remember listener that we're here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730 N-E-R-D. You can also email us at podcast at nerdwollet.com. Oh, that was fun. And that was awesome. Oh, thank you so much. You're welcome. It's like you've done this before or something. All right, listeners, join us next time to hear about.

about how to budget for irregular expenses. Me and Sean will be calling ourselves out on that episode, so make sure you listen. Follow smart money on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcast, and IHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes. Here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisors.

This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes. It may not apply to your specific circumstances. This episode was produced by Tess Figglin, who was also the star of the show. Hilary Georgie helps with editing Nick Kirstimi mixed our audio and a big thank you to Nerd Wallets editors for all of their help. And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.