NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast - Making Your Dream Life
Episode Date: January 20, 2022Living in a van, traveling the country and working wherever you want might sound like an odd dream, but that’s the life NerdWallet travel writer Sam Kemmis designed for himself. To continue our seri...es about financial dreams, Sean and Liz talk with Sam about his experience and his tips for making your dream life. To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email podcast@nerdwallet.com. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend.
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Welcome to the NerdWallet Smart Money Podcast, where we usually answer your personal finance
questions and help you feel a little smarter about what you do with your money.
I'm Sean Piles.
And I'm Liz Weston.
To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text us on the Nerd Hotline at 901-730-6373.
That's 901-730-NERD.
Or email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com.
Hit that subscribe button to get new episodes delivered to your devices every Monday.
And if you like what you hear, please leave us a review and tell a friend.
Over the next few weeks, Liz and I are releasing a special series of episodes all about financial
dreams.
We'll talk with a few nerds who accomplished their financial dreams, and we'll also have
on some outside guests to talk with us about what they want to do with
their money. And since we're NerdWallet, we'll also discuss the steps you can take to accomplish
your own financial dreams, whatever they are. This episode, we're talking with Sam Chemis,
a nerd who made his dream life by living and working out of a van while traveling the country.
We're going to talk with Sam about how he accomplished this and what it means to make the life you want for yourself.
Welcome back to the podcast, Sam.
Thanks, Sean and Liz. I'm so happy to be here to discuss my dream
of being a lowlife who lives in his vehicle.
I should preface this by saying that I'm not currently living in my van,
but I am living with my in-laws, which is, you know, my backup dream. Right. Well, you're doing that for a very
good reason, which we'll get into later on, I'm sure. But now I want to start at the very
beginning. How did this all start for you, Sam? Did you know that you wanted to live in a van
or what happened? No, there wasn't some moment where I was like, that's it. I've got to sell
all my stuff and hit the road, which I think is how a lot of people get into the van life thing. But it was kind of more of a step by step process of elimination for me. It started because I had a job that allowed me to work remotely. And this was in like 2016. So working remotely was actually remarkable at that time. Not a lot of people were doing that.
This is before NerdWallet, right? Yes, before I worked at NerdWallet. Yeah.
Okay.
Because I could work from wherever, I started traveling a lot, mostly around the world,
but also a lot on the West Coast. And what I realized pretty quickly was that I was basically
wasting all this money on an apartment in LA that I was only occupying part of the time.
So I figured that if I wanted to keep traveling, I wanted to get rid of my expensive apartment.
And at that time, I also needed to buy a new car.
And at some point, it kind of just like clicked that I was like, oh, I could like live in my car, basically, if it was a camper van.
And then when I wasn't traveling abroad, I could live in it and I wouldn't be paying rent. So I sort of got into the van life thing,
not because I was super into vans, but because of the financial trade-offs. It sort of just like
was what made the most sense given what my goals were. I've seen some really, really tricked out
vans, like quarter of a million dollars worth of camper van. I'm assuming that's not what you did?
No. And that's what I quickly realized once I
started reading about it. I was like, oh, yeah, if you buy a brand new sprinter van,
like really high end ones, it's like $100,000. Like that's not actually financially liberating.
And because I'm a cheapskate, I basically was like, okay, so how can you do this for the least
amount of money? And I found these imported Japanese vans called Mitsubishi Delicas, where the steering wheel
is on the wrong side and they run on diesel and they're just like super weird.
And because they're so weird, there's not as much of a market for them.
And so you can get them like way cheaper, like under $20,000.
Wow.
Okay.
Did you put the steering wheel on the right side or did you leave it as is?
No, it stays there. It's over there, which is legal. That's the question everyone asks. Okay. Did you put the steering wheel on the right side or did you leave it as is? No, it stays there.
It's over there, which is legal.
That's the question everyone asks.
Okay.
You mentioned that this was the right fit for your goals.
I want to hear from you how you decided and landed on what your goals were.
The basic goals were I wanted to travel a lot.
I wanted to see family and friends who are scattered across the country. And I didn't want to
spend a lot of money. I think those were the limitations, or I wanted to spend as little money
as possible. When you were thinking about letting go of your apartment, were you worried about that?
The idea that maybe you couldn't find an affordable place if you came back? Or was that not even part
of your decision making? Yeah, no, I mean, I was sort of just like, there's going to be an apartment somewhere if I need it.
And so if this whole thing just blows up in my face, I'll just kind of go back to the way things
were. It's a little different from selling a house in LA because whenever you do,
there's always the risk you'll never be able to buy again. You get shut out. There is a concern
if you want to buy a house someday. Did you ever feel that pressure that at some point you have to
get real estate or is that not part of your calculations? Oh, God. I feel like we could do
a whole separate podcast about that. You know, for a long time, I've been like, oh, I'll just do this
like rent and live frugally thing and I'll save some money. And, you know, at some point it'll
make sense for me to buy a place. But that has coincided with the real estate market, like
perfectly keeping pace with my ability to be involved with it.
So, yeah, I still have this sort of like, one of these days, it's going to make sense for me to buy.
That's kind of the Wild West right now.
I want to hear about the day-to-day life of living in a van because, yeah, you're not paying rent on an apartment.
But I imagine there would be some expenses, especially if you're putting diesel into the van.
What was that like managing your finances on a day-to-day basis?
In terms of finances, there's some tricky parts.
I would actually say food is one of the trickiest parts because you're not able to cook.
It was a very minimalist setup that I had.
So I wasn't able to cook in the same way that I could in an apartment.
So I ended up eating out a lot more than I usually did or buying a lot more pre-made food. So I was a little surprised how much food played into my budget. And the other piece is just how much you want to travel. Obviously, if you're driving 400 miles a day in a big van or something, you're going to spend so much on gas or diesel that it's not going to make it worth it. How much do you want to travel versus how much are you going from spot to spot and spending a long time there? I found I enjoyed spending more time in one place for longer periods
of time. So that was sort of an easy trade-off for me. So like national parks, what kinds of
places were you staying at? Yeah, it was a mix. I mean, sometimes it would be national parks or
trailheads. I would do a lot of that, just like spend the night at a trailhead so I could be the
first on the trail in the morning. But then as it went on, I actually found myself do a lot of that, just like spend the night at a trailhead so I could be the first on the trail in the morning.
But then as it went on, I actually found myself spending a lot more time in cities or towns.
I was working and I generally found it easier to work at coffee shops or at co-working spaces or things like that.
And the other part is just you get a little bit lonely when you're doing it alone.
And if you're out at a national park for a month, you sort of lose in touch with reality. And I'll be honest, the other piece, this is like getting into the less glamorous parts of this is I needed to shower. I don't have a shower. So a lot of it
was finding places to shower. And those are usually in towns or cities at gyms or yoga studios or
wherever I would go. I was going to ask about that as well. I watched a lot of tiny house hunters during the worst part of the lockdown.
And a lot of folks just kind of hop around from place to place with their tiny houses.
And they would mention that showering would often be a challenge.
So many would get gym memberships.
Is that something that you did too?
Yeah, I did.
I had a membership, a super cheap chain of gyms that were all over the place.
So there was a good chance that I could go to one.
At one point I was living in Santa Cruz and there was not one of those living in Santa Cruz.
My van was in Santa Cruz.
And the only place in town that I could find that had decent showers was a hot yoga studio.
And they only taught 90 minute hot yoga classes, which if you've never done are super intense.
Right.
So I actually ended up getting like really into yoga because it was the only place I could shower.
That's so funny. I guess I didn't think about how your lifestyle has to be really malleable depending on where you are and what amenities are or are not there.
And of course, COVID like, I mean, part of why I'm not in it right now is COVID totally
messed that all up. You weren't going to go to a hot yoga studio or to Starbucks or whatever. So yeah, it really changed the dynamic.
And you also had a kid.
Yeah, your relationship status changed and added a
partner and a dog and then eventually a baby. Even the two of us plus a dog was way too much
for that van, though we did it for a while. It was an interesting challenge with, yeah,
no bathroom and two people and a dog and one like twin size bed, basically.
This woman sounds impressive. I'd like to meet her.
She is. What a great way to test your compatibility, problem solving, trying to find
bathrooms, trying to find places to sleep, trying to find Wi-Fi. And you really had to solve a lot
of problems together, I bet. Yes, that's a very optimistic way to put it. I like that.
I like that attitude. Yeah. Well, I mean, I still know couples that don't want to move in
together until after they're married. And I just think that that is very risky because you don't
know if you're okay with the way they load the dishwasher or they do clean the tub. And these
are important things to work out before you commit to someone for your whole life. I had some friends
that actually waited until well after they got married to move in together. They kept their
separate condos for quite a while. Interesting. I guess it's nice to have your personal space. I kind of think everyone
should just live in a van together right off the bat, and then you can just work out all your
issues. Well, I also want to talk a little bit about your work life. You said that you were
working for a company where you could be remote, and NerdWallet allowed you to do that as well.
So how did you manage finding Wi-Fi and completing assignments when you were potentially at a national park or
somewhere remote? That was a really interesting piece of it. I ended up building my thinking
about where I was going to be based on where I could work. I had a good hotspot with Wi-Fi where
I could get good internet access and that wasn't really a problem. And so for a bit in there,
I was freelancing. And so basically all I was doing was sending access, and that wasn't really a problem. And so for a bit in there, I was freelancing.
And so basically all I was doing was sending in assignments, and it was great for that.
But then I ended up moving into a role where I really needed to be on calls more often,
Zoom calls.
And for that, I really needed more reliable internet.
And so I needed to be more at co-working spaces.
It works really well if you don't need to be on Zoom all day.
But if you do, then you got to be pretty creative about it.
Was there any way to set up Wi-Fi on the van, like a big satellite or anything like that?
I had what's called a cell phone range extender, which is what it sounds like.
And so I would use that with my hotspot.
But it's not really a magic bullet.
It doesn't make service appear where there is no service.
It just makes it a little bit better.
So you can't be out in the middle of the Mojave Desert trying to be on Zoom or whatever.
Hey, Sam, did you ever wind up gypsy camping or being somewhere you really shouldn't and having to dread that knock on the van door?
I would say I mostly was staying in places where I was worried that I would get the knock on the door.
Incredibly, I never got hassled.
I read a fair amount on Reddit.
You know, there's a whole community of people who live like this about just some strategies
for avoiding that.
Don't just set up camp in some neighborhood for a month and make a nuisance of yourself.
But it was sort of in the back of my mind a lot.
I did spend a lot of time trying to find a spot where a good spot to stay for the night, but it didn't seem like I would get
hassled. And it's just an interesting paradigm shift in how you think about yourself. I don't
know how to explain that, but to be kind of this borderline outlaw at all times.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I also wonder about other aspects of managing your finances. Like you had to have some kind of tax base if you were a 1099 or W-2 employee.
How did you think about that and get that sorted out?
The short answer is it's super complicated.
I actually ended up finding an accountant who specializes in digital nomads.
So people who don't have a permanent address.
And part of that is just because the text situation is so complicated that it's really hard to figure out on your own. Obviously, I'm not
providing tax advice here. The long and short of it is that every state has its own rules about
when they will tax you, how to count as a resident. So I ended up keeping basically an ongoing
summary of how many days I spent in every location. And I sent that to my accountant
at the end of the year. And he figured out, okay, so you spent 14 days in Idaho. What are Idaho's
rules about this? Do you need to pay taxes there? Do you need to then do a deferral for the taxes
you would have paid where you were domiciled, which is the official name for where your home is?
So it gets complicated in a hurry. And basically, yeah, I kept my mailing address in one place,
and that was my domicile. But then I tried to be on top of paying taxes in all the places I needed
to. One of the main unglamorous aspects of living in a van, I feel like there's this image of it on
social media where you are absolutely liberated. You can do whatever you
want, wherever you want. And it's not quite the case, but I'm sure there were some parts where
you were thinking, this is pretty sweet. So can you talk about some of your best moments when you
were living in the van? Definitely those times parking at a trailhead, waking up, going on a
hike at six in the morning, getting back, doing my work, cooking on campfire. It felt so cool to be out in
the woods and getting my work done, getting paid. It just felt like a dream in those moments.
And then, like I've alluded to, a lot of it was challenging. A lot of it was like,
oh, where am I going to find Wi-Fi? Where am I going to find a shower? Blah, blah, blah.
And so in the moment, it often felt like, oh, this is so hard.
But when I look back at any given month of time in the van, I had so many stories and experiences
and just memories from that month compared to a month in my apartment in LA, which could just go
by without anything at all happening. Yes, it's really challenging, but you just get so much out
of it. And how did you deal with the loneliness? How did you find people? How did you meet your partner?
So part of what I wanted to do was be able to visit a lot of friends. So I would just drive
and spend like a week or two and visit my friend and couch surf. But then if I needed to stay in
my van, I could do that too. I actually found in some ways it helped me connect with a lot of
people who I hadn't seen in a long time better than my normal life. And yeah, my partner, I had already met her before. So we
sort of like rekindled it while I was in the van. Sam, I want to go back to what you mentioned a
little bit earlier about the hard work and the great payoff of trying to live this life and
living your dream life. Because I think that gets to the core of what is so fascinating about your own individual financial dream is that it's not always going to be super
rewarding it can be but you do have to put in an almost equal amount of work and that's one of my
main takeaways hearing your story another way to put it is if it was easy then everyone would do it
right yeah yeah yes the hard work of like doing your taxes as a digital nomad, which is that's real hard work.
And the other part of the hard work is just being willing to give up something that is in your life currently. Right.
Do you ever have a moment of crisis thinking, oh, no, what have I done?
Oh, definitely. I think it was mostly moments of crisis.
Yeah. moments of crisis. It was definitely that part of being a real homeless person and realizing that
I was indistinguishable from other folks who were living in their vehicles on the street and just
having these moments of like, I'm making this choice to do this and so many people are forced
to do this. Why am I subjecting myself to this? What's next for you? Are you going to be staying
with the in-laws for a while or do you expect to resume traveling full-time? The baby and COVID have scrambled this whole thing. And part of my
thinking was just, I was like, I'll wait for that all to settle down. I'll figure out how babies
work and I'll wait for COVID to be over and then I'll figure out my next dream. But that has taken
a long time to settle down. So I think I'm going to move into a real apartment next, not with my
in-laws and just get this baby older and then figure out what the next dream is. I mean, I'm going to move into a real apartment next, not with my in-laws and just get this baby older and then figure out what the next dream is.
I mean, I'm just like that type of person.
I was already looking up how to start your own fish farm vegetable garden in the desert.
And my partner was like, we've got to do this.
Let's move to Joshua Tree and start a fish farm.
So I'm sure something will come along, but I don't have anything set in stone.
I'm sure we'll drag you back to talk about it whenever you have your next stream in mind.
Yeah, yeah, please.
For your next fish farm, herb garden podcast, I'll be your guest.
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much for talking with us.
And in a kind of change of how we typically do things, Sam, will you give us your takeaway
tips of living your dream life?
Yeah, happy to. Number one, start with your goal and then ruthlessly challenge your assumptions
about what's getting in the way. So for me, it was that the apartment was in some ways getting
in the way of me living the life that I wanted. Number two, the stakes are probably a lot lower
than you think. If you make a big drastic change and you hate it, you can go back to the way things
were. And in the meantime, you'll have had an interesting experience. And finally, let your ideas simmer for a while to
let inspiration strike. Try to be open to many possibilities when thinking about how to achieve
your goal. All right. Well, that's all we have for this episode. If you want your money questions
answered on a future episode, turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD.
You can also email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com. Visit nerdwallet.com slash podcast for more
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