NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast - Tap to Pay, Tap to Overspend? Mobile Wallet Traps and Money Conversations That Pay Off

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

Learn if digital wallets make you overspend and how simple habits can help you stay on budget. How do you start money conversations that actually help? Do mobile wallets make you overspend? Hosts Sean Pyles and Elizabeth Ayoola discuss intentional money conversations and the psychology of paying by phone vs. card vs. cash to help you control spending and feel better about your money habits. Joined by Shari Rash, host of Everyone’s Talkin’ Money, they begin with a discussion of money talk made easier, with tips and tricks on opening with neutral topics like grocery prices, identifying your first money memory, and swapping shaming language for neutral phrasing. Then, personal finance nerd Kate Ashford joins Sean and Elizabeth to discuss whether paying by phone changes what you spend. They discuss why “payment coupling” can dull the pain of spending, guardrails to curb impulse buys (fun-money caps, 24-hour waits, no saved cards), and where cash, credit cards, mobile wallets, and envelope-style budgeting apps (like YNAB and Goodbudget) fit for security and self-control. Does Using a Credit Card Make You Spend More Money? https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-cards-make-you-spend-more  Want us to review your budget? Fill out this form — completely anonymously if you want — and we might feature your budget in a future segment! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScK53yAufsc4v5UpghhVfxtk2MoyooHzlSIRBnRxUPl3hKBig/viewform?usp=header In their conversation, the Nerds discuss: mobile payments, Apple Pay, Google Pay, digital wallet security, overspending, impulse buying, cash vs credit card, payment coupling, behavioral finance, pay by phone vs card, cash stuffing, envelope method, ynab, goodbudget, budgeting apps, grocery budget tips, price per ounce shopping, money mindset, first money memory, financial check-ins, unsubscribe from promo emails, wait 24 hours before buying, fun money budget, online shopping guardrails, biometric authentication, credit card fraud protection, cashless venues, spending guardrails, budgeting limits, talking about money with partner, how to start money conversations, rising grocery prices, neutral money language, feeling rich vs being rich, allocate money for joy, mobile wallet pros and cons, tap to pay risks, and how to curb impulse shopping. To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email [e-mail]. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everyone. Remember a little while ago, Sean and I told you we were giving away some pretty cool prizes? Well, the deadline is coming up and our prizes are still just as amazing as ever. All you got to do is fill out our listener survey and not only will you be helping us make the Smart Money podcast even better, but one person is going to win a pair of Sony ULT Wireless Noise Canceling headphones and six people are going to win the Bagu Cloud Carry On Bad, which as someone who's a nerd about both of those things, I can confirm that. these are some really great prizes. Just go to nerdwollet.com slash pod survey

and complete the survey form by September 15th to shoot your shot. You can read the official rules for more details, which again can be found at nerdwallet.com slash pod survey. Thank you. Good luck. How far away is your phone from you right now?

I'm willing to bet it's either in your hand or within arm's reach or maybe just in your back pocket. I feel like that's a judgy question, Sean. So I don't know if I want to answer it. I'm going to take it that it's in your hand. right now. Not in my hand, but definitely a couple inches away. Well, we all know that we are helplessly addicted to these devices, which can sap our time, our attention spans, and also

our hard-earned money. So this episode, we have some tips for using these phones responsibly to manage your finances. Welcome to Nerd Wallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions, and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Piles. And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. This episode, we answer listeners' question about whether paying by phone can lead to overspending. But first, we're going to talk about talking. On Smart Money, all we do is talk about money, but having these conversations can be really tough, whether you're making plans with your partner, planning a vacation with your friends,

or just talking yourself out of that next impulse purchase. And joining us in this meta-money conversation is Sherry Rash, host of the podcast Everyone's Talkin' Money. Sherry, welcome to Smart Money. Thanks for having me. I'm not going to lie, my heart went up in my throat a little bit when you asked where the phone was. I'm like, it's right here, it's right here, but I'm not looking at it, I promise. If it's out of sight, you can get a little bit anxious, right? We're just elude to these things.

Well, I love the premise of your podcast because money is so important to talk about. And it's one of these subjects that people often avoid talking about, but it's an undercurrent to so many conversations, whether or not you're actually talking about money directly. You know, it can be you're making plans for the weekend with your friends and how much is that going to cost you, or what's the grocery list for the week? How much are we going to spend on that? So we're talking about money, even when we don't mean to. Can you talk with us about how we can have more intentional money conversations,

even if we don't realize that we're talking about money? Well, you're right. Money has to do with everything. We can't function without spending money. So we need to create a decent relationship with money. We don't have to love money, but I just ask, let's not hate it. Let's not avoid it. Let's just accept it.

It is what it is. And I really think that that's the first step. is to accept the fact that money is intertwined in everything. And it's like, do we really want to have a bad relationship with something we have to deal with all the time? Like, how terrible is that if we really like sit back and think about it? How terrible is that if we hate money and we have to deal with it multiple times a day, every day for the rest of our lives? Like, that's a really bad place to be. So like, let's just get to the fact of we talk about money. Money has to do with everything. And like, let's just identify why we don't like to talk about money. Let's start

there in order to improve. And like I said, we don't have to love money, but let's get to not heating it. Right. Because money itself is neutral. It's a tool that we're deploying all day, every day, but it's loaded with so much baggage based on our upbringings and cultural expectations around money. And that's where things can get really complicated and people can have sometimes dysfunctional, emotional relationships with money. I think often, too, we don't even realize we have a bad relationship with money because we don't talk about it and we just live in our own vacuum. So the way we grew up, we just think that's normal. But then once you start talking about it with other people, you might realize like, oh, maybe that's not the

healthiest way to think. I want to know if you've had hesitations with talking about money and then how you kind of overcame them. I don't think I've ever had hesitations with talking about money. Here's what I think. I think when people think about talking about money, they think by the end of the conversation, the person's going to know how much money I make, how much I have in my checking, how much I have in my savings, and all of that. I talk about money all day, every day and no one knows that about me. We have to separate of we can talk about money without airing all of our dirty laundry. So if people are hesitant to talk about money, would you think there's maybe a simple topic that you'd suggest to get this conversation going? What's a really

easy way to dip your toe in? I think it depends on who you're talking to. Anyone can talk about groceries. Anyone could say, man, groceries are so expensive. No one's going to be like, no, I think groceries are completely fairly priced, and I'm not spending too much. I would love to pay more on my groceries, in fact. I'm going to Airwant tomorrow. Exactly. So I think that's a very neutral topic that everyone's going to agree on. Like, wow, things are really expensive. And just starting there and like, oh, what else do you think is expensive? Or I've come across this. Just by starting off with that. And yeah, you're putting yourself out there a little bit by just saying, I think groceries are expensive, but you're not saying, oh, my God, I can't even get by.

I'm struggling. I'm living paycheck to paycheck. It doesn't have to go to that extreme. But just finding a neutral conversation like groceries, like the cost of kids' activities, where they start a sport and you have to buy all the equipment, like anything like that, everyone can commiserate, if you will. And your example also showed how if you approach it with a sense of curiosity, it's less about getting bogged down in sort of the judgment and shame around all of it and more of really trying to get to a place where you're understanding how other people are thinking about and navigating the same thing that we're all managing.

And then Sherry, as we're talking, I feel like when I think about the conversations I have about money with different people in my life, whether it be about groceries or how expensive child care is or how much you make, I don't think all of these conversations are necessarily always productive. So is there a productive way or a helpful way that people can talk about money so that it actually moves them forward in their financial lives. Yeah, I mean, going back to the grocery conversation instead of just like sitting there complaining about it, odds are if you're having a conversation, yes, there's going to be some complaining because that's usually what bonds people together is complaining about a topic.

But then it's likely that someone's going to say, well, do you know that this grocery store has really good prices on this? Or I found this hidden gem of a store. or I find that such and such on Tuesdays has this deal. Like, odds are a best practice or a little tip or trick is going to come out of it. I did a podcast episode recently that I'll look at, this is going a little, you understand my money brain, but I'll look at when I'm grocery shopping the price per ounce of something, if I'm comparing two different things. Because the price tag will show the price per ounce or whatever it is.

And, like, if you can't decide, well, do I buy the bigger version, even though it's more expensive, is it actually cheaper? So I feel like a conversation at some point becomes productive because, yes, we can all complain. Even if you're the one starting it, offer your little tip or trick. It is always funny how people tend to bond over complaining and something that I've tried to shake as like a bad social habit. And so I try to move toward more productive means of communicating like that and bonding over that. So my grocery tip is that I love to get my produce at a beautiful Asian grocery store in my neighborhood. It's so affordable and I always find something new to try. So folks should check that out.

All right, Sherry. So a bit about you, you have nearly 20 years in the financial services industry. Over your career, what common themes have you seen around what gets people into trouble with their finances? And also, on the flip side, what are some common habits of people who end up financially successful? So I would say what gets people in trouble is not paying attention to their money. There are places where the financial industry kind of fails the public. Podcasts are helping this a lot, but like they want the end user to love financial stuff, whether it's investing or budgeting and all this as much as they do.

That's just not going to happen. So I feel like the information comes at such a level of like sew in the weeds or comes from a place of not meeting the end user where they are. And it's intimidating. And then, of course, why would I want to be involved in my money? Because all these gurus, the talking heads out there, are talking down to me almost. So we just avoid our money. And that's the biggest mistake someone can make. Again, acknowledging, like, you don't have to love your money. You don't have to love money in general. You have to know what's going on with it. So sticking your head in the sand is never. the answer. So conversely, those that have success with their money know what's going on with

it. They're aware. And it doesn't mean they're waking up every morning saying, I can't wait to see what the futures are doing, right? That's not what I'm saying. It's just knowing what's going on with it, knowing where it is, asking questions, having resources to help you. So Sherry, there are a lot of people who, by many measures, are doing well. Maybe they're earning north of six figures and they own their house and they're investing for retirement, but they still don't feel like they're doing great. And maybe they don't feel like they're rich or what have you. So how do you think people can get to a better place about how they feel with their money, even if they are doing okay? And how do you think people can get to a place of being quote unquote rich if that even means anything

if you're not a billionaire nowadays? I would first say, what does rich mean to you? Does it mean having a certain amount of money, if it does, likely when you get to that point, you're not going to feel much better because that's just like a faux number. It's just a number we throw around. So what does rich mean to you? Does it mean flexibility? Does it mean I can go on vacation without thinking twice? What does rich mean to you? But I would say for someone that is making good money and is on track for retirement, doing all the right things on paper, I would look at, is your money controlling you or are you controlling your money? Because so oftentimes when we have money come in, it's getting sliced and diced and divvied up into all of these places where our bills are

getting paid, our mortgages are getting paid, all of that. But we're not allocating money to ourselves, like our present day selves. We're taking care of everyone else and not doing anything for ourselves today. If you feel like I'm doing all the right things, I have good income, what are you doing for yourself today and how much control do you have over your money when it's coming in? And that's why I'm a huge fan of financial check-ins. Our listeners know we love those

because you really kind of can get a picture of where you are because I know that sometimes I suffer from feeling like I'm not saving enough and then I look at the numbers and I'm like, hey, girl, you're actually doing a pretty good job so you can live a little, you know? So getting back to the idea of talking about money, Sherry, if you could encourage everyone listening

to have just one financial conversation, what would it be about? This is a little deep, but it tells you a lot of what you need to know or what the person you're talking to and having the conversation with needs to know about their relationship with money. But it's what is your first money memory? When I say the word money, what do you think of? It can get deep very quickly if they answer vulnerability.

I'm trying to figure my own answer here. But that tells you like right away what you're working with when it comes to your relationship about money. If you say, well, I heard my parents arguing about money, then you probably are going to have a push and pull relationship with money. If it's, well, I remember that the tooth fairy would come and I'd put the money in my piggy bank and then I'd go to the store and spend it. That's a positive. So you likely have more of a positive relationship with money or a neutral relationship. So whatever it is, don't force yourself to go, well, it has to be my first one. it's whatever comes to mind, like right away, like that snap thought, that helps dictate your

relationship with money for the rest of your life. So unpacking that is a big job, especially if it's negative, but that'll help tell you the direction you are with your relationship with money. And I think going back to that grocery conversation earlier, that first money memory, this first conversation you're having about your feelings and memories of money has an effect on how we're having these conversations about our everyday expenses too. If you said my first money memory is my parents arguing about money, we don't have enough money or whatever it is, you may then never feel like you have enough. So when things get expensive, it could be even that much harder on you because you are

in the back of your mind going, well, I never had enough. I never have enough. Things are getting more expensive. Things are out of my control. When if you just take a step backwards and look at your money, do money check-ins like Elizabeth mentioned, okay, yeah, things are more expensive. it's okay. I'm doing okay. Yeah, you'll make it work. And I think just to leave people with one more actionable tip, once people do come up with that first memory, let's say it is traumatic or it is

holding them back. What can they do to work through that? I think acknowledging it is the biggest thing to work through it. Acknowledging it and understanding it, not putting any more emotion on the money. You're already putting enough. So let's try to get out of the emotion. Because like you said earlier, Sean, and I say it all the time. Money is a tool. It's neutral. So we need to look at it as neutral, but we put our own emotions on it. So I think recognizing the emotions first is the biggest thing. So if you go, oh, wow, like, I guess I do look at money in a negative way. That's the biggest thing. Like, if you just are coming from a place of, I'm aware that I look at money in a negative way, that just helps so much right there to just start to transform. So then you can

check yourself and you can also be aware of like the phrases you use like to your kids instead of saying we can't afford that we're going to choose not to spend my money on that right now just like that slight little change and by saying we don't afford that we can't afford that you could be in your head thinking well i'm not spending my money on that just say that i'm not going to spend my money on that right now yeah it's one of my favorite lines for my son no don't want to and it's honest Yeah. Well, Sherry Rash, host of everyone's talking money, thank you so much for joining us on Smart Money. Thanks for having Meals with Fun Conversation. All right. We're about to get into this episode's money question where we talk about how paying by phone compares to other payment methods.

But before we get into that, listeners, you know the drill. Send us your money questions. What's that one thing that you just can't seem to work out in your financial life? Like maybe you're not sure how much you need to save for retirement or you want to supercharge your savings before the end of the year but needs some help getting the right strategy to do so. So Christmas is coming. No, I'm not too early. And maybe you're thinking about how to budget for that. We can help out. So send us a question. If you have any related to that, you can leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-63. That's 901-730 NERD. Or email us at podcast at nerdbolic.com. All right, let's get to this episode's money question segment. That's coming up next. Stay with us. We're back in answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode's question comes from a listener named David, who sent us an email.

Here it is. I've always heard that folks spend more with credit cards than cash. How do phones compare? Same as a card or spend more or less than cards? Just curious. I feel the benefits and security outweigh the possible pitfalls, but mileage may vary. Thanks, David. To help us answer David's question on this episode of the podcast, we're joined by

personal finance nerd Kate Ashford. Hello again and again, Kate. Hi, guys. How are you? Great to have you. How are you? Good. Let's talk about the premise of David's question, that people spend more money with credit cards than they do with cash. This is something that's been backed up by research in the field of behavior or finance many times over. Kate, can you break down what's happening here? Essentially, using a credit card separates the buying from the paying. So you're not feeling the pain of that money leaving when you swipe your card. You don't get that feeling until you're paying your credit card bill, and that's probably weeks later, and it's not connected to that purchase. Compare that to how it feels to physically pull cash out of your

wallet. You feel that pain immediately. Ask my 14-year-old any time I tell her to buy something herself. Suddenly, she doesn't want to buy it anymore. I bet. So if you're operating on all cash, you tend to spend less. So then it stands to reason that paying with your phone delivers a similar experience of not really feeling like you are spending money when you actually are spending it, or I guess, borrowing it short term if you're using a credit card. Anytime there's like a near frictionless way to spend your money and buy something without actually pulling out cash, our brains are going to have a hard time feeling like we're spending money. Does that seem accurate to you, Kate?

Absolutely, it does. I think sometimes about how I had to explain credit cards to my children, because watching me pay with a plastic card doesn't intuitively seem like spending money. It's so quick, you're not counting out bills, you're not scrounging around for correct change. sometimes I walk away from a transaction at the grocery store and I'm not even sure how much I spent because it's just so roped. You don't really have to use your brain. It feels disconnected from cash spending. So Kate, when you were talking with your kids about how credit cards work, what was it that clicked for them that made them seem to understand that this is actual money that you're spending? I just had to explain to them that it's not that I'm just swiping this piece of plastic, that this is money that we have to pay our credit card company at the end of every month and it really is real money. I think that's a reminder that we all need every so often.

Oh, for sure. Something else that makes paying by phone so appealing is that it makes impulse shopping so easy. And to be honest, impulse shopping can feel really good. Ask me because I know. I think everyone indulges in impulse shopping from time to time. But doing it all the time can be rough on your budget. What advice do you have for how people can impulse shop responsibly or curb this behavior if they're struggling with it, Kate? I think it helps to set some amount of money in your budget that's fun.

money that you can spend on whatever you want. I think you'll probably get the most joy out of it if you reflect on what you really want to buy. But if you like that spur of the moment feeling, just set a limit that works for your budget. I think about this. I like gambling. When I'm in a place where I can gamble, I give myself some set amount, $100, whatever, and I can gamble until that's gone. That's my fun money. I didn't expect to leave with it anyway. But I stop at $100. If you have trouble stopping at that set amount, either spend in cash, which automatically limits you, or take some steps to curb online spending, like unsubscribing from promotional emails or making yourself wait a day between adding something to your cart

and buying it. Don't save your credit card number to your online wallet. So put some guardrails up. Kate, have you been watching what I've been doing in my finances? I've done all of those things, and I will attest that it helps tremendously with impulse spending. Yes, and don't memorize your credit card number. It's not helpful. No, it's a setup. Sorry, it's too late. already deep in my brain. One thing I'm thinking about as it relates to this topic is a write-up that our colleague Aaron Hurd did around the psychology behind using credit cards versus cash, and we'll have a link to this in the episode description.

In Aaron's article, she talks about a phenomena called payment coupling that explains why purchasing something with a credit card, either on your phone or a physical card, can feel better than paying with cash. The idea is basically, like you mentioned earlier, Kate, that because you don't actually pay for something the moment that you buy it when using a credit card, it just doesn't feel as painful as when you buy it with cash right then and there. And that can make a good argument for doing something like the envelope method, which you also briefly alluded to, Kate, where you just keep cash on you for certain purposes in different physical envelopes in your

bag. And then once that money is gone, that is it. You can't run to the ATM and pull out more cash or use your credit card to cover the purchase. So where do you think the envelope method sometimes called cash stuffing fits into the spectrum of payment options? And is it still even realistic in our increasingly cashless society? There's no question. This is harder than it used to be. Some venues don't even take cash now, so that's tricky. I go to a football game every year at a stadium that used to accept only cash, and now it accepts no cash at all. So certainly you can carry cash and stash a card in the back of your wallet for emergencies or for those cashless venues. But you could also check out some of the budgeting apps that are structured like the envelope method, where your income is portioned out to specific spending categories. I think Wynab and Good Budget both use this approach. You might have to pay a fee to connect the app to your accounts, but you'll get the benefit of still tracking and categorizing every transaction, even if it's not all in cash. I will say that paying by your phone has become pretty ubiquitous over the past few years, but some people might still be wary of the technology. So can you speak to its safety and how it compares with other payment methods, like let's say using your credit card or cash?

As much as cash might make you more mindful about your spending, there are drawbacks to it because it's a physical and finite resource. You could drop a wad of cash while you're out, and there's no way to get it back. Everyone has found cash on the sidewalk at some point. Credit cards, on the other hand, come with fraud protection and also chip technology that makes it tougher to clone cards. But again, if you lose your card, someone can typically use it until you catch on, and your card number can be stolen and used by someone else. You're protected against fraud as long as you catch it and report it, but it's a pain.

Paying by phone has even more security measures, like encrypting your card number when you use it so the merchant never gets it. You can set up biometric authentication, your face, your fingerprint, which makes it harder for someone else to use your phone to pay for something. And for these reasons, mobile payment is considered more secure for in-person shopping, but you have to make sure you've set up those authentication requirements. So paying by phone can be safer than using a credit card or cash, but this payment method can also lead to overspending. So Kate, do you think that paying by phone is a net positive or negative? given these pros and cons.

If you are a responsible credit card user, being able to pay by phone is a plus because it's a more secure transaction. That said, the listener question is sound. Research shows that people do spend more money when they have mobile payment as part of their system versus just using a credit card. And if you're struggling with impulse shopping

and having a hard time sticking to a budget, it's probably not helpful to be able to just tap your phone at the register to buy things. So this is person and discipline dependent. I'd love to hear how each of you handles and approaches paying by phone versus with credit cards. Do you find that you actually do spend more when you're using your phone or not? What do you think? I probably do.

I'm half and half on pay by phone. It's so easy to pay for things. And sometimes you only have to carry your phone and you're covered and that's nice. But sometimes it doesn't even register in my brain that I've paid for something because there's zero friction. It's just a double click and a tab. My husband would probably tell you he'd rather I didn't use it. And does that make it more tempting for you than a credit card? Like, say, three years ago, you were just probably using your credit card.

Was it the same? Or is it now easier for you to spend your money? It's easier. I don't even have to take something out of my pocket. It's just my phone is in my hand and there I am. I don't even have to have a method of payment that looks like money. I just have my phone and I can pay for something. That doesn't even get into pay-by-watch because you can pay with your Apple Watch too if you have one.

Oh, that's tough. which I have done. I was an early adopter to pay-by-phone technology, and I actually don't find that I spend more money with it than I do with just a credit card because I treat it the same as buying anything else. And I don't really use my cell phone to pay for online purchases, actually. So in some ways, because I have that guardrail, or at least I try to, I'm curbing my spending a little bit. So, yeah, for me, it hasn't really changed my behavior except for the fact that I am not pulling up my wallet. at nearly as often as I used to. There you go. Elizabeth, what about you? Well, I personally think that it is a scheme, a setup, orchestrated by capitalism. Yeah, this is all capitalism trying to keep me glued to my phone, trying to make me spend more money. So I dabbled my big toe in pay by phone, and I dabbled it right back out because I started spending more. Yeah, I started spending more because I like to spend online. And then sometimes when I'm at the store, like Kate said, if I have to reach in my pocket or I forget my wallet in my car, sometimes I go, actually, I don't really

need that thing. But when it's on my phone, I just spend, swipe, spend, swipe, and for me personally, it's a no. So I probably used it for maybe two months and then I deleted it off of my phone. So I do not use pay by phone. I online shop on my phone and you can Apple Pay that way too. So it just is it. Yes. It's not even just, you know, at the register, you can, you know, I'm at whatever.com and you just hit Apple Pay and it's done. Exactly. I got a medical bill from a provider and they had pay-by-Apple-Pay on your phone. So it's everywhere at this point. It felt kind of silly.

So, Elizabeth, what kind of guardrails do you have now? Is it really just not having pay-by-phone methods available to you? Oh, I mean it. I don't have it on my phone at all. So if I leave my wallet at home, great. I save some money. So I do not pay for anything using my phone. Nope.

Yeah. Well, that gets me to think about a common theme in personal finance, which is like how can you create your own set of rules and guardrails to make managing your money easier and make it less likely that you will overspend on things that you don't actually need. And Elizabeth, you have your system right there. I have my own. Everyone figures out their own funky little way to do it. And at the end of the day, like, whatever works for you, works for you, and that's fine. That's right. That's right. Well, Kate, do you have any other thoughts that you want to leave listeners with around paying by

phone and how to curb our spending, which we seem to have a hard time doing? Only that I think Elizabeth has something on taking pay by phone off your phone. That might make it easier for me to spend a little less. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us today. Thank you for having me again. That's all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions.

So turn to the nerds and call or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. It's 901-730 Nerd. You can also email us at podcast atnerdwallat.com. Join us next time to hear about the pros and cons of credit freezes. Follow smart money on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and IHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes. And here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisors. This nerdy information is provided for general, educational, and entertainment purposes, and it might not apply to your specific circumstances. This episode was produced by Tess Viglin and Anahil-Hawski, Hilary Georgie helped with editing, Nick Carissy, Mixed our,

audio and a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for their help. And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.