NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast - ‘The Color of Wealth’: Overcoming Structural Challenges

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Black women face distinct challenges when building wealth. So what can they do about it? To kick off this new series, “The Color of Wealth,” NerdWallet writer Elizabeth Ayoola talks with Washington Post personal finance columnist Michelle Singletary about what Black women and mothers can do individually to grow their wealth. To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email [e-mail]. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend.

Welcome to the NerdWallet Smart Money Podcast, where we typically answer your personal finance questions and help you feel a little smarter about what you do with your money. I'm Sean Piles. We have a special episode in store for you today. Personal finance nerd Elizabeth Ayula is picking off our new series called The Color of Wealth, where she'll talk with money experts about how Black women can build wealth, including the challenges they face and how to balance motherhood and money goals. Welcome to Smart Money, Elizabeth. I'm happy to be here, Sean. Even happier to be talking about this topic. It's one that gets my wheels turning and something I think is relevant as I am a Black mama myself and I'm on a journey to building wealth. So Elizabeth, since this is your first time on Smart Money, can you please

tell us a little bit about yourself and why you wanted to talk about these topics on the podcast? Of course. So I'm a writer at NerdWallet. And as I mentioned earlier, I'm also a mom to a rambunctious five-year-old. I wanted to discuss these topics on the podcast because I'm a late bloomer when it comes to investing. And one reason is a lack of access to financial information and just general information about how to build wealth. So I want to share the love with other Black moms now that I've been able to map out a clear path to building wealth for my son and I. Love it. So who are you talking with this episode? Today, I'm going to be speaking with Michelle Singletary.

She's a journalist and personal finance columnist at The Washington Post. Very fancy. Michelle won a 2021 Gerald Loeb Award for commentary for her series Sincerely Michelle in The Washington Post. And it essentially discusses misconceptions around racial inequity. So today, Michelle is going to help us shed light on structural issues around race and wealth building for Black families, and hopefully she's going to share some of her personal experiences in the process. Great. Well, I will let you get to it. Michelle, welcome back to Smart Money. Oh, I'm so glad to be here again. Thank you for having me.

You're welcome. For those listening, Michelle has been here before. In 2021, she sat down with us to discuss getting ahead of your next money crisis. So how are you enjoying 2023 so far, Michelle? Well, I don't know. I'm probably like a lot of people. I'm very apprehensive, worried about inflation, worried whether or not we're going to get into a recession officially. So I am cautiously optimistic, I would say. I know these are very, very uncertain times. So I find myself constantly checking the news,

seeing what's going on with the economy, trying not to buy the things in my Amazon and Zara cart to save money. But we really don't know which way it's going to go. 2022, the word for the year was inflation. And I think for 2023, it's also going to be inflation. And inflation erodes your ability to save, to build wealth, because you're spending more money on the things that you need, like housing and food and transportation. And since so many people are living at the financial edge or paycheck to paycheck, having to spend more of that for the necessities leaves you with less to build your wealth. And I think that's a great segue into the topic of today, because a lot of the times

people who tend to suffer the most are sometimes people of color because of where we are financially and our socioeconomic situations. So that leads me into my first question, which is, what made you gravitate towards discussing topics around race and inequality? socioeconomic situations. So that leads me into my first question, which is, what made you gravitate towards discussing topics around race and inequality? I'm going to be really honest. I try to stay away from the whole issue of race a lot because it is so fraught with criticism and people accusing you of whining. I wanted to just talk about money because everybody needs money. But then George Floyd happened and the riots and more folks being shot. And it just hit me that I need to not run away from this issue of race. You know, when you're a woman of color and you're climbing up the ladder, wherever you are, you want to be there because of who you

are, not the color of your skin. And so you don't want to quote unquote, play the race card. And so you tend not to want to lead with that. But when I did the series for Sincerely Michelle, one of the reasons why I did it, because I wanted to say, you know what, this stuff is happening. It's real. It's current. I mean, I think that was what led the series because we often think that we are post-racial, that discrimination is just not as bad as it is. Can't you all stop talking about slavery? You know, things, those kind of phrases. And the fact of the matter is there is still a wealth gap that is directly linked to policies both by corporations and the government that has kept women and minorities and people of color behind financially. So when we talk about wealth gaps

and how much white Americans have as opposed to Black Americans, as opposed to Hispanics, it almost as if we're saying, well, what did they do wrong? Why don't they have much in savings? Why don't they own homes? And people want to overlook the fact that there were systemic policies, racisms that was in place that kept these folks behind. And so for me, I walked that line between personal responsibility and society responsibility. And both have to be working to help people create wealth. Oh, I love that. I can especially relate with what you said about the whining and people feeling like, oh, it's just something we need to move on with because it happened so long ago. But people who tend to say that don't seem to know what you just said, which is it's a structural

issue. And these laws and policies are still in place and still keeping people oppressed. So it's not something we can stop talking about until those things are reversed. But I love how you add the touch of the importance of personal responsibility, because like you said, I think both need to work together, right, for things to change. That's exactly right. I mean, listen, in 2020, women, no matter the race, earned on average 84% of what their male counterparts earned. This is according to Pew Research Group. So when you drill down with the numbers, Black women earned on average 58% of what their white male counterparts earned. And a lot of that is employment discrimination. When we know that when Black women

has the same qualifications as their white male counterpart, they're paid less. Now, having said that, so what do you do if you're that woman? You're paying less. You're waiting for things to catch up. You're waiting for the corporations

and companies to do the right thing. You're waiting for things to catch up. You're waiting for the corporations and companies to do the right thing. You're waiting for the government to enforce anti-discrimination laws. But while you're waiting, you have to do what you can to make that 58% less work. And that means making better financial decisions. Listen, I'm not goosing the host, but I love NerdWallet and what you guys do because that's what you're doing. You're providing people with information so that on a personal level, whatever they're earning,

even if you're earning so much less than what you deserve, how do you make that work for you? Absolutely. But it's almost impossible to do that without the education, right? That's right. I definitely think it's important. You have to inform yourself. Listen, I was raised by my grandmother. She took in five of us total, my siblings and myself. And the one thing I loved about my grandmother, big mama, even though she never made more than about $13,000 a year as a nursing assistant at a hospital, she never apologized for what she couldn't give us. She never made herself feel bad that she couldn't get us the latest shoes or clothes. She's like, whatever you make, you make that do for you. And I love that. And guess what? She was a homeowner. Guess what? When she retired,

her home was paid off. Guess what? She lived 20 years in retirement on social security, a very small pension and $20,000 in the bank. And when she died, she had that same $20,000 in the bank. And so I use her as inspiration. I mean, this is a woman whose grandparents were enslaved. This is a woman who was right in the middle of the civil rights era. And she said, you know what? They are discriminating against me, but I'm going to take this little bit of money that I'm making and I'm going to make it work. I am not going to crush myself with debt. She hated debt. She's like, I am not going to go out there and be a consumer when I need to be a saver. And despite all the things that she went through, she's like, okay, I got this little bit of money. I'm going to make it work. And that's what you have to do. And I just think that that is for 2023 and forward, as we wait for policies to catch

up to do the right thing, that's what you have to do with your money. Thank you so much for sharing that. That is so beautiful and so inspirational. I love, love, love that. And I also love that you say she didn't apologize for not being able to give you the things that she did, because I think that helps to cultivate a positive money mindset, right? Because it's not her fault that she was discriminated against, but she didn't victimize herself and did the best with what she had.

And I love, love, love that. And this is a particularly a good lesson for those who are maybe single parents, because oftentimes you feel like you have to do more for your children. And even in two parent households, you just you try to do so much for your children. Sometimes at the detriment of your financial wealth building, they don't need all this stuff. Right. And, you know, I'll have people say, well, I need to move to a bigger house. Why? Well, my kid needs more back up space. Well, you know what? left over to invest for your retirement, to invest for your kids' college education, to build that emergency fund. So if your kids have to double or triple up in the room, they're going to be okay. If they don't have as

much yard as you'd like, they're going to be okay. If they don't have a closet that's big enough to put all the stuff that you want to put in there, they're going to be okay. What's not okay is carving out enough, even as little as you can, to offset, say, student loans, to be able to save for your retirement so that you aren't living fully on social security, which is not enough for a lot of folks. And so that's what my grandmother taught me, that even at her low, low salary, by teaching me to be okay where I was, to not look to see what everybody else has, that you can build wealth for yourself. And really what it is, is financial security. Absolutely. Love what you said there as well about single moms. I'm a single mom myself. I have one child, which I did mention earlier.

And maybe three years ago, I wasn't in the financial position that I am now. And it was just that when I started out, when I moved back to the States, we were living in a room in someone's house because while I did have enough to rent a one bedroom apartment, like you said, it was going to spread me thin. So I was like, well, what's the smarter thing to do here? Share a room with him in someone's house, which was a lot cheaper until I have enough to comfortably move into an apartment. And like you said, he was fine. The most important thing to kids is usually that they have love, a sense of security, and that you're there for them. So, you know, I think a lot of the time, sometimes us Black people as well,

who grew up with trauma, especially financial traumas, are afraid of re-traumatizing our kids. So as you said, we stretch ourselves too thin, but I think it's important to remember that, like you said, they'll be fine. And they will be. I love that you did that. But it is a hard sell for a lot of people. I can't live in somebody's house. The kid needs their own room. And they put all that out. And so now you get this apartment or you get this house and you are struggling.

And then you've got to take on another job. So guess what? Then you're not there for your child. And so what do children need is your presence, right? And then you've got to take on another job. So guess what? Then you're not there for your child. And so what do children need is your presence, right? And that is what is going to help them stay secure. My grandmother loved on us and she loved us with force. No, no was her favorite word. And it was my favorite word for my children.

And even though my husband and I were well positioned financially by the time we had our children, we still denied them a lot of stuff. They thought they were straight up. They did not understand where we were economically because they're like, what is these shoes I'm wearing? But guess what? When they walked across the stage and graduated from college, they had no debt. When my oldest went to graduate school and got her master's in social work so that she could be a therapist, understanding that she wasn't going to make a whole bunch of money, she appreciated that even though we could have given them more stuff, we decided intentionally to use that money to save for their college over 20 years so that they could have a life and do what they were God-gifted to do. One kid is a teacher. As I said, my daughter is a therapist. My son, he is on the autism spectrum. He's still

making his way as a young adult, but he now at 24, still trying to make his way. He doesn't have the pressure of having debt and being out there on his own. He can take his time because he needs the time. And that's what we have taught them about making intentional decisions about your money even when there's not a lot there yes love love love love love these lessons so i'm going to quickly bounce back to what you mentioned about home ownership because it actually happens to be one of the questions i have for you so in 2022 74.6% of white households own their homes compared with just 45.3% of Black households, which is a huge gap. So we're still far behind when it comes to building wealth that way.

Now, I'm sure the current market doesn't help considering interest rates and home costs are high. I can attest to that because I feel like right now I was thinking about buying a home, but it's just not looking very like the best time to buy. So with that said, what are some common barriers that you feel like Black families face in terms of home ownership? Well, you really need to start with some of the barriers is credit history. And we sort of think of credit as an equalizer. Like, so you pay your bills on time, everybody should pay their bills on time. How could that impact your credit? factored into the credit system.

And so even though you may be paying your rent on time, that's not in the credit score. So you may have a depressed credit score simply by the fact that you're renting, or perhaps you pay a lot of your bills with cash. That's not reflected because in order to have good credit, you got to use credit and you got to use it wisely to get a good credit score. And so that's been a barrier. And then also the income is a barrier. If we are already making less, that means you have less ability to save and less income means you can't qualify for maybe a house in where you live. We tend to be concentrated in areas where housing is very expensive. So you package all of that together, contributes to the lack of homeownership. And there's still redlining going on. We see studies where two applicants, same sort of information,

maybe the African-American will get a loan, but it won't be at the same terms as the other family, which has the same income and same credit history. We know, for example, during the Great Recession, that Black homeowners got worse loans, predatory loans, even when they had a credit history, a credit profile that was similar to a white borrower. That's baked into the system. And so all of that contributes to the lack of home ownership. And then again, we're in areas where homes cost a lot. And then if you're African-American and live in a community, let's say you bought a home and you want to trade up. Well, your home is going to be appraised at a lesser amount than a similarly situated home in a white neighborhood. So you might buy your

home for 150, 10 years later, it's worth 160. But that same home, that same quality neighborhood in a white neighborhood, that 150 might have appreciated to $300,000. And so you can see that you can't move because you don't have the equity to maybe put into the next home. All of that contributes to a lower home ownership rate. And so hopefully we are working on ways to bridge that gap because home ownership is a way to build wealth, but it's not the only way I have to say. And I think you're doing the right smart thing about holding off until it's right for you. Because again, the banks will qualify you for a loan, using your gross income and how much debt you have, but you don't bring all that money home. And so you need to really seriously think about whether homeownership is right for you at that

time. And it's not right if there's no cushion in your budget to do the other things. And you can build wealth as a renter because anybody who owns a home knows it's a money pit. I've owned a home. I've been a homeowner since I was about 22. I only rented one year of my life. So I've been a homeowner. But every home, I mean, the money that you sink in for maintenance and improvements,

more than offsets, which you might have been able to save. If you're a renter and you don't own a home, you can build wealth. Just take that money that you would have put in a home, the down payment and all, and put it in the market. Build a diversified portfolio, low cost index funds, and you will find in years to come that you have built just as much wealth as that homeowner and wealth that you actually can reach and touch and get that you can sell at much more easy than having all of that money tied up in a home. Absolutely. So I love that you mentioned that home ownership is not the only way to build wealth. We know that investing is one way for

people to build wealth as well. So what are some structural issues that may keep Black moms from investing or kind of starting that journey? I think because African-Americans were denied the ability to invest, there is this fear of investing that is legitimate. However, because of that, we follow bad advice. So, you know, only buy a home. Well, that's just one way to build your wealth. You should be investing in the market. And the one thing that has concerned me was this sort of rhetoric about, well, black should be in cryptocurrency. We were denied investing, but now we need to catch up because this is the future. But cryptocurrency is very speculative. So I would just caution you not to listen to people who think that you can jump ahead and build wealth quickly by these very

speculative investing vehicles. Sound investing is boring. It's boring and boring is okay. You buy a low cost index fund. You do something called dollar cost averaging where you invest a certain amount of money on a regular interval every month, for example, $100, $200. That's basically what you do with your retirement plan and you buy it no matter what the market's doing. So you put in $100, no matter what the market's doing. So when the market is down, you're buying more shares. When it's high, you're buying less, but it eventually evens out. And so that's the key. I am a daring investor. And guess what? Got a lot of money. I am not, I am not a speculative investor. And perhaps there are people who win at speculative investing because that's what you focus on. Well, so-and-so made, you know, X amount of money. But to me, that would be the same as you're going into

casino and you see winners, but the vast majority of people are losers. So, because you think about this, when you think about this, when you have the slot machines, for example, and somebody wins, all these bells and stuff go off. And I always wonder, well, what I want other people to know that I won. Well, the casino owners want you to listen and think that you can win too. That's why it's loud and flashy, right?

Same thing with cryptocurrency. It's flashy. They want you to think, sure, with certain schemes, the top people will make money, but the vast majority of people lose money. Be a boring investor. Regular money, low cost index funds, you'll do well, you'll be wealthy, and you won't have taken on extra risk. Yes. And you have more free mental space. That's right.

All my investments are automated and I do not worry about all the work that's going on, you know, in the market. So I'm with you on that one. Absolutely. That's the way to do it. So I want to ask, how can Black families overcome the challenges that you mentioned of issues with their credit and also redlining, if possible?

What are some ways that they can kind of overcome that? So with redlining, let's talk about housing. The one thing that you can do is to be a smart home shopper. You want to be very intentional about getting the best loan that you possibly can. So that means shopping around. Just don't go with the first lender who reaches out and make sure that you're getting a really good loan. Get a couple appraisals if you're looking at a home to make sure that you're buying the house at the right value. These are all things that you got to sort of put work into to make sure that your package, once you do decide to get a home, is on point.

Here's one thing I would say. Redlining is still in place and active. But the other thing is appraisal bias. We've seen studies now where Black family appraisal comes in, appraises the house at a certain price, and then they change the look of the house. They took down the pictures of Black family and had a white person come in and the house appraised for hire. So you want to watch out for those kinds of things. So one of the major factors in buying a home and getting the best loan deal is having a high credit score. And all you have to do to get that is to pay your bills on time and have little debt. You want to pay down the debt as much as possible before you have the house. I try to tell people to walk into the whole process with absolutely no debt, no car loan, no student loan debt, no credit card debt. So I've had three

houses in my lifetime. And each time I went into the loan process with no debt. And it's really funny when you do that because they see your application and they go into the loan process with no debt. And it's really funny when you do that because they see your application and they go, you don't have no debt. And I was like, no. And so if you can position yourself that way, you make yourself a better loan applicant and you hopefully decrease the opportunity for them to discriminate against you. You've got a good, solid job. You've made sure that you're buying a house that's well within your affordability and your credit is good. I pay my credit card bills off every single month. And here's also a little bit of a tip, even within the month. Okay. So I pay off my credit card debt every month, but even within the month, I don't carry

a lot. So people probably heard, oh, you shouldn't have more than 30%. So they use it as a target. But even for those who pay their credit card bill within the month, they only use about 8% of their available credit balance. And then I pay my credit card bills off before the due date. So it doesn't even have a chance to even register that I even have debt for that month. This is like a little tip. And so that's sort of how you reach that. But it really doesn't matter. Once you get over the high 700s, like 750 or higher, it's all the same. So it's just like bragging rights. Bragging rights are allowed. And then the last piece of advice I say for homeowners is that the bank will qualify you

for a certain amount based on your gross income and how much debt you're carrying. But I need you to qualify yourself on a different measure. I need you to qualify yourself based on how much you need to save. So when my husband and I were looking for our first home as a couple, and then we moved up, we factored into our own qualification, the fact that we wanted to save aggressively for retirement. We factored in the fact that we were saving for the kids' college fund. At the time that I had my first home, I was helping take care of my disabled brother. I factored in the monthly amount that I gave him to help for his living expenses. And we also made sure that one of us could carry the mortgage if one of us lost our job. And we had beautiful homes. Maybe we didn't have, you know, the $1.5

million home that the banks might have said we would qualify for, but we had nice, comfortable homes with a little bit of backyard, took the kids to the park. And that allowed us the freedom, the stress to de-stress of having to worry about if one of us lost our jobs. That is so clever. And I think it can be hard. I don't know about your past generations, but it can be hard for this generation to do with so much social media influence

and feeling like you need to kind of show and tell everything. You feel like you want to have the biggest and best of everything. So I think having that restraint to say financial freedom is more important than looking the part can be really difficult for people. So I commend you guys for doing that. Yeah, it's very hard to do that. And I think the younger generation has a lot of, are doing a lot of things right. They're getting it right. They're saying, I don't want to work till I'm 70. They're like hopping from job to job as opportunities present themselves. When I was growing up, it's like, you work for the company for your life. You know, they're like, you're

not treating me right. I'm finding a job that will. They have it right. The one thing I will say is don't listen to the quote unquote, they who tell you things that you should have or how you should look or you dress for success and your shoes have to be this. And that's a bunch of bunk because none of these people are paying your bills. None of these people are going to bail you out if you lose your job, or maybe you have to stay home with a sick child for some time, or maybe you become ill. And so you've got to stop, you know, this whole idea that you have to quote unquote look the part. Just look neat and nice.

And that's all that is required. Absolutely. I second that. So I have two more questions for you. And the second to last one I have is, do you have one or two money management tips that you can share with Black moms based on your personal experiences as a Black mom, Black moms who are trying to build wealth more specifically? Yeah. So the first one we kind of talked about it a little bit is and I'm taking it straight from my grandmother, big mama. eyes. You know, why can't you get me this? Why can't I have this video game?

No guilt whatsoever. Christmas time coming, they didn't get a whole bunch of stuff because I got to look down the road. What is going to be more advantageous for them financially? Putting money in a college fund for them or having savings so that if you lose your job or you have a disruption in your income, you can keep things going or that temporary, momentary pleasure of seeing them go, oh, thank you, mom. And they completely forget it after that. And I would say that's one thing. And then I think secondly, is that you really need to be intentional about how you handle your money. And no matter where you are financially, I would say read as much as you possibly can.

Understand it. Take classes. I have a financial ministry at my church. Find one in your community and stay in there continually to inform yourselves. I mean, I've got a column in the Washington Post. You should be reading. You should be reading NerdWallet. It should be bookmarked on your phone or your computer.

Even if you're not looking for something. You know what my pastime is when I'm sitting around? I can't say this. It's probably TMA. But I'm in my bathroom. I'm looking at websites about money. I'm reading about money. I'm reading consumer reports. I'm reading consumer

reports. You know, you might be watching Housewives of Potomac and that's not going to help you build your wealth. Make sure that the time that you spend in some of your leisure time is spent informing yourselves. And if you don't understand something, making sure that you read enough that you do understand it. And I think that's the sort of the key to building wealth is just having good information based on your own personal situation and stop listening to people who say you should have this or you should do this or that. Make sure that whatever you do is appropriate financially for you. And if I can add a third piece of advice, remember what I said about my grandmother, about not feeling guilty about what you can't do? That has been revolutionary

for me in my personal financial life. As a Black mom of three kids, my husband and I practiced it. And I'm telling you, it's so freeing. It's so freeing not to feel guilty. And at the time, our kids weren't happy always, but we knew, my husband and I, that at the end of the day, they would be better off having less. The key word in our house was no. I love the word no. It's a complete sentence. Yes. Excellent, excellent. Excellent. I definitely feel guilty when I say no sometimes to my son, but I remember that he has to learn that everything's not always going to be a yes. And also I heard something the other day that said we underestimate humans' ability to be able to deal with disappointment. And that was profound for me.

Disappointment is not going to kill them. It's a normal thing in life and it's something they have to learn to deal with. And it builds character. Oh my gosh. As a Black mom, I learned to say no. I learned to say no with humor and I learned to say no with no guilt. Love it. Three pointers, three ways to say no, taking all of those on board. And I hope everyone else is too who's listening. So my last question for you, or maybe just a contribution that you can make is, are there any resources that you'd like to share that can help Black moms who are just getting started or maybe, you know, facing challenges around some of the structural issues that we've mentioned? The one thing you don't want to do as a Black mom or any mom or dad is take your

advice from the person who's selling you whatever it is that you're trying to buy. So when you go get a house, don't just listen to the real estate person or the lender. Do some research on your own. When you go buy that car, you should not be getting the most of your information from the car dealer. You should have already walked in there knowing what it costs, what features you want, and all they need to do is process the paperwork. And then hopefully you buy it with cash. Personal finance is very intimidating. It's very complicated. And I understand why people just their eyes glaze over. I get it. But you got to punch through that. Investigate everything. I'm going to be truthful to you. I don't even buy a pencil without like, is that the right pencil? I research

everything. Even while I'm in the store, if I see something, I'm on my phone. Okay, is this the right thing? Who said this is good? I'm researching and looking at reviews and and calculating and pausing. See, when you pause, you have more money. And the reason why that point is important is because the lenders, financial institutions have decreased the amount of time it takes you to purchase something. That's why credit is so successful. And why, you know, you've got Apple Pay,

all these things. I can now take credit card and tap the machine. I don't have to put in any number or pin or anything. That means that you are not spending enough time thinking about that purchase. So the more you pause before you purchase, you will have more wealth. Wow. I can count on two hands the amount of times I've been in a line or something wanting to pay for something and they take too long. And thank God they took too long because I put it back down because I had a minute to pause and be like, you don't need these things, Elizabeth. They can stay at the store. That's exactly right. Michelle, this has been such an engaging

and enlightening conversation. I appreciate all the knowledge you shared, your personal experiences, telling us about how you are teaching your kids to be financially savvy. I'm sure all of this information is going to be so helpful to Black moms and also to anybody that's listening who's a parent or even not a parent. So I really appreciate your time, your contributions, your wisdom. Thank you so much for coming. Oh, thank you so much for having me. That's all we have for this episode, guys. To share your thoughts on how to budget, pay off debt, or manage finances as a parent, shoot us an email at podcast at nerdwallet.com.

Also visit nerdwallet.com slash podcast for more info on this episode. And remember to subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you're getting this podcast. And here's our brief disclaimer, thoughtfully crafted by NerdWallet's legal team. Your questions are answered by knowledgeable and talented finance writers, but we are not financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general education and entertainment purposes, and it may not apply to your specific circumstances. This episode was produced by Sean Piles and myself. Liz Weston helped with the editing. Kaylee Monahan mixed our audio. And a big thank you to the Nerd Wallet

copy desk for all of their help. And with that said, until next time, turn to the nurse.