NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast - Year-End Money Tasks to Thrive in 2024 and How to Choose a Budgeting App

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Learn about practical money management tasks to set yourself up for success in 2024 and tips for choosing a budgeting app. 01:11 This Week in Your Money: Hosts Sean Pyles and Sara Rathner propose three money tasks to tackle this winter. The first is a task to do this week, the next is something to do over the course of a month, and the last is something you can do over the whole winter season. By completing these tasks, you may be able to put yourself in a better financial position going into the new year. They also share their personal strategies for setting budgeting boundaries and practicing radical acceptance with family members during the holiday season. 11:55 Today’s Money Question: NerdWallet writer Lauren Schwahn joins Sean and Sara to help answer a listener’s question about how to choose a new budgeting app, with many consumers in the market following the news that the Mint app is shutting down. They discuss different types of budgeting apps and how to understand your own needs to ensure that you choose an app that’s well-suited to your preferences. They also specifically discuss the NerdWallet, Copilot, and YNAB budgeting apps. In their conversation, the Nerds discuss: personal finances, money management, budgeting apps, financial success, planning for 2024, Copilot app, YNAB app, spending trackers, financial checkups, Mint closure, budgeting boundaries, financial success, new year, financial empowerment, winter money tasks, financial checkup, money goals, unused subscriptions, spending habits, comparing budgeting apps, features, costs, security, customer support, money management styles, budgeting for beginners, budget categories, financial institutions, and budgeting app user reviews. To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email [e-mail]. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend.

Winter is the time to get cozy, gather with family, and if you're a big old nerd, do a financial checkup. And if you're listening to this, chances are you fit that description. So this episode, we've got a few things you can add to your list this winter. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Piles. And I'm Sarah Rathner. So listeners, 2023 is almost over and we know you've still got some nagging money questions that you'd like help with. Well, fortunately for you, we have got your back. Whether you want some help figuring out your money goals for 2024, or you're still trying to find a new budgeting app now that Mint is closing down,

send us your money question. You can text it to us or leave a voicemail on the Nerd Hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. Or you can email your question to podcast at nerdwallet.com. And speaking of Mint, this episode, we answer a listener's question about the merits of different budgeting apps, including whether to go for one just because it has a slick interface. But first, Sarah and I are going to give you, dear listener, a few money tasks for the winter.

Sarah, does it feel like winter where you are? It comes and goes. We actually have a little bit of frost on the ground today. So some days I'm under a blanket with a mug of tea and other days I go out for a walk and I sweat. It's weird. Yeah. How are things up in the Pacific Northwest? It's 50 degrees and rainy, so a little warmer than usual, but the rain is normal for this time of year. But regardless of what weather you have, rain or snow or climate change-induced heat wave, the money tasks that we've got on tap are a great way to set yourself up for success in the new season. So Sean, what's on your list? Well, we've got three things for folks to do. The first is a task to do this week.

Next is something to do over the course of a month. And finally, we'll give you something you can do over the whole season. Love it. So what should folks do this week? All right, we're going to start off easy. I'm going to say do that task that you know is only going to take you like 30 minutes to do, but you just keep putting it off.

Think of this as the dishes in the sink issue. It's something that you know you really should take care of. It's not going to take you that much time to do, and you'll feel so much better once it's taken care of. So this might be canceling that subscription service that you don't even use anymore and keeps getting more expensive. I'm looking at you, Netflix. Speak for yourself yourself i still use netflix so i'll pay for it so here's here's another one and this one always gets me because i i have such a mental block when

it comes to this but it's so important return that online purchase that's still sitting in its package just waiting to be returned you've printed printed out the label. You've taped everything on. And now it's just sitting by your front door mocking you. Okay. Yeah, rotting. Go drop it off at like the post office or the UPS drop off or whatever. By this point, your Black Friday and Cyber Monday purchases have probably grown legs.

So get them out of your house before they just like take over and become a pet. Just get it out. Yeah, I found myself in this situation last week and I am kind of an impatient person sometimes, especially with lines. So my tip, if you are impatient like me, is to go to the post office at less busy times

for the sake of your time and your sanity because the post office, as you probably know, is super bonkers this time of year. I went around noon one day last week and just turned right around because the line was out the door. So then I went the next day at like 10 a.m. It was completely empty. I was able to drop off my package right away and it took me less than 30 minutes. So boom. Love it, especially since the post office is notoriously known for its lack of lines. Yes. So let's talk about a task you can do this month. So we can

stretch this one out a little bit longer. It might sound a little bit daunting at first, but I promise it is worth the effort. So once you hear me, you're gonna be like, Sarah, no, I don't want to try it. We're going to ask you to track every penny that comes into and goes out of your life for a whole month, really every single penny. So you could use the notes app on your phone and make a note to track this, you could do a spreadsheet, you could use old fashioned pen and paper, and push all judgment from your mind. This is not an exercise that you can use to just get angry at yourself for every time you spend money. It's literally just to see where your money is going. And

when the month is up, you have a pretty accurate record about what's coming in and what's going out. Yeah, I did this a few months back after reading the book Your Money or Your Life by Vicki Robin and Joseph Dominguez. In the book, the authors talk about tracking your finances like this because it's a good way to stop careless spending. In the book, the authors talk about tracking your finances like this because it's a good way to stop careless spending. In the book, the authors frame money as something that you exchange your life energy for. So the point is to make sure that you are trading your life for the things you actually care about and not wasting it on things that you don't care about. So did you stop buying Starbucks this month and become a more enlightened person? No, not exactly. Because it turns out that having a silly little seasonal coffee drink is something that I

value. And I'm happy to trade my life energy for a cup of sugar and coffee. But this exercise did help me pause a little bit before spending money and ask myself that question. Is this purchase worth my life energy? So maybe you got the tall instead of the grande. No, I'm venti or nothing. Ask myself that question. Is this purchase worth my life energy? So maybe you got the tall instead of the grande. No, I'm venti or nothing.

Okay, that's a lot of peppermint coffee. So at the end of the month, look at all of your purchases and all of your sources of income. And when you look at each item that you spent money on, make a note of whether it was fulfilling, whether it brought you joy or not. And while we're at it, you might also want to look on the income side of things and ask yourself if the way you made that money was fulfilling and brought you joy. Maybe your job is great and there's nothing to change for you and everything is stable and wonderful.

Or maybe your job sucks your soul out of your eyeballs every day and you would literally rather perform dental work on yourself than get out of bed every morning on the week, you know, during the weekday. So if that's true for you, maybe it could be a good time to spruce up your resume, put some feelers out. Right. For income and expenses, it's about seeing whether how you are interacting with money is aligned with how you really want to live your life and what you're trading, again, your life energy for. And you know, it's not like every single time money comes into or goes out of your life, it's supposed to bring you joy, like paying the electric bill isn't exactly a giddy moment for most people. But when you look back at your spending in particular, focus on the areas that you are less enthused about. That can help you find parts of your

life that you might want to change. It could also mean finding ways to save money on that electric bill. Or maybe you realize that you're spending a lot of money on purchases for yourself and you'd rather give more to causes that you care about. So Sean, are you still tracking every penny in and out of your life? I have abandoned the notes app in my phone, but I do still track my finances in a closer way. I've offloaded the unpaid labor of manually tracking my spending to a spiffy budgeting app that does it all for me. But I do check in on it almost daily. And even when I'm not checking in on it before a purchase or after a purchase, I'm asking myself that question, is this worth my life energy?

And that has been something that I think I'll keep doing as I go forward in life, because it's a very important and profound way to consider how you are engaging with money and the things you want in your life. That's great. And beyond getting to know yourself and your spending better, this exercise can help you establish the foundation of your budget. And budgeting is an exercise that scares a lot of people. But if you take this step first, you now have thought about where you actually want your money to go. And you can begin to determine how much of your money should go to each of those specific areas. And that's a

budget. All right, well, our third and final money task for winter, something you can accomplish by the end of the season, is to take stock of how the holiday season went, both personally and financially. Yes. Once all the wrapping paper, champagne corks, and I don't know, garland or whatever has all settled, do a little retrospective. Think back on the 2023 holiday season and ask how it went for you and your money and your mental health. Did you have this lovely in-budget season full of good cheer, or did your loved ones stomp all over your boundaries, leaving you hosting dinners for 40

and buying expensive gifts for ungrateful people? And that happens too. So now's a good time to think about what you want next year to look like. Yeah. And this is another exercise where I suggest busting out the notebook, maybe the notes app, make a record of your feelings at this moment, write everything down so you can reference it next holiday season. Because that way, a year from now, you can remember really clearly how you felt when you were pressured into buying X thing for whatever relative, or maybe that you're better off sending one relative a text message rather than having an actual phone call with them. So Sarah, how do you stay level headed and in budget this time of year? I mean, if it's if I'm being perfectly honest, it helps if you don't celebrate Christmas,

which I don't. So I don't know. That's fair. Not my holiday. It's okay. I celebrate people who celebrate Christmas. And that's, that's awesome. So I don't have the pressure to create holiday magic for my family, like so many of my friends do. But I am big fan of taking stuff off of your plate that doesn't have much impact on your celebration. And it just causes you stress. So like, maybe you hate sending out holiday cards, because you have to impact on your celebration and it just causes you stress so like maybe you hate sending out holiday cards because you have to line up the photographer and pick the template and pick the photos and assemble the addresses and your spouse wants you to do it but doesn't want to step in and help themselves and that's a whole series of fights so stop doing that just

don't send the cards just don't just don't do it and if your spouse is mad and misses the christmas cards then they could be the ones to do it next year and then i promise you they won't do it. And if your spouse is mad and misses the Christmas cards, then they could be the ones to do it next year. And then I promise you they won't do it the year after that once they see how hard it is. Haha. So yeah, it's okay. You could scale back some stuff. What about you, Sean? I try to practice budgeting boundaries and radical acceptance. They kind of go hand in hand. Budgeting boundaries, as in like, I won't spend more than a certain amount of money on gifts. Like I love giving gifts. I think it's something that's very personal and touching.

And it's one of my love languages, if that's still a real non-debunked thing. But I'm not going to let it sink my budget for the month. And that's just my line. I can't spend too much because I have other things that need my time and money and attention. And the radical acceptance part is just knowing that you're always going to have those family members that you won't see eye to eye with, or maybe they have a couple of screws loose, or they think you have a couple of screws loose. So I'm going to do my thing over here.

And as long as they don't do anything totally out of line, I'll let them do their thing over there. You could just hide in the kitchen, stirring the pot of mulled wine, which is much more peaceful than stirring the pot with some of your relatives. Yes, love it. Okay. And in the end, you get a cup of mulled wine, which is a bonus. Absolutely.

Yeah. Listener, we hope this helps you make the most of the week, month, and season ahead. Let's get on to this episode's money question segment. This episode's money question comes from a listener, Peter, who reached out by email. Peter wrote, hi, I can't seem to find much out there reviewing Copilot other than paid bloggers. Is this budgeting app, which looks very slick, worth considering? I've tried YNAB, but it wasn't a good fit for my financial strategy. I assume this is similar.

I trust NerdWallet and would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks for your question, Peter. To help answer it on this episode of the podcast, we're joined by NerdWallet writer Lauren Schwan. Welcome. Hi, thanks for having me back. Hey, Lauren. So there are lots of different budgeting apps out there. So let's talk about different kinds that people like Peter might encounter because there are so many and they don't all offer the same thing. So how would you categorize the main types of budgeting apps and tools that are on the market right now? There really are so many options in the space, and that variety can be really overwhelming. I'd say if we want to simplify, we could essentially boil it down to two things, and that is the function and the cost.

So what does the app or tool do? Some will track your expenses. Some will monitor your investments. Some let you set spending and savings goals to help you plan out your budget, and others are more all-in-one. But I would also think about how it functions, meaning whether it can connect to your bank account and pull those transactions automatically or if it requires you to log them yourself. And so the second one, how much does it cost? If you're really trying to get a better handle on your budget, money shouldn't be a barrier to that. And luckily, there are so many great free budgeting tools out there. There's a lot of simple spreadsheets and budgeting calculators, apps that have extensive list of features. So you can be. I mean, they can be around $100 a year. And there are tons of influencers that will sell you their spreadsheets that are basically Excel or Google Sheets spreadshe for example. And then also the Federal Trade Commission on their website, they have a worksheet that you can download for free. And then we'll talk about it in a little bit. But there are several popular apps that are free to use or that at least might have a free version, like Good Budget and PocketGuard are a couple that come to mind. And as you mentioned, others like YNAB in Peter's

question might charge a monthly or annual fee or sometimes that larger one-time lifetime fee. Okay, well, now let's discuss the app that Peter is thinking about specifically, Copilot. I poked around the demo a little bit and it does look very slick. Lauren, can you talk about what it offers and what makes it distinct in this very crowded market? Yeah, Copilot is one of those subscription-based apps. So you can pay either $13 per month or $95 a year. And it normally offers a one-month free trial. I know with the news of Mint app shutting down in the coming months,

they extended it, I think, to two months. I'm not sure how long that offer is valid for. But occasionally, there may be instances where they extend it a little bit. And yeah, to be honest, I've also only tested it out briefly in the demo mode. So take my assessment with a grain of salt. But the fact that it has a demo mode, I think is pretty cool. Many apps don't. And I like that because you can play around with the features and get a better feel for it before you commit to actually linking your financial accounts. So what did you see when you were poking around the demo? So what I saw is with Copilot, you can link to different financial accounts.

So all your transactions appear automatically. But you can also add them manually, which can be really handy. I don't know if you've had this experience with some of the apps you may have used in the past, but you may have an account that isn't compatible with the app. So if you have, for example, your retirement account through Fidelity or something, and the app doesn't recognize that, you're still able to go in and add it by hand. So it's reflected in your budget, even if it's not being pulled automatically. But the app also shows how much you've recently spent compared with your ideal spending goal. So you can see an actual spend versus budget amounts for different categories if you want to narrow it down further and you have a little bit of flexibility to choose those.

And then you also have the option to pick from pre-made budget categories or you can create custom ones. So you can kind of make your budget as specific or as broad as you like. And you can also group different categories together under a larger category, which is pretty cool. So for example, you could create a wants budget, and then you can nest your restaurant spending, entertainment, or makeup purchases, things like that within that. Something else that stands out that I've seen a lot of buzz online for this app as well is that Copilot uses AI to improve the categorizations. So with the technology, the idea is basically that you can teach the app, I guess, to become more accurate and personalized, at least in theory. Like I said,

I haven't truly tested it with my real information, but it's kind of a cool concept. Yeah. It also seems really of the moment, every company, every app wants to incorporate AI in some way, even if it's doing something as small as improving categorization. So I wonder how big a difference that would really make or if it's a clever bit of marketing. Right. And this technology is still pretty early on, right? So does it actually do what it's supposed to do or is it going to take time for it to improve? So Lauren, did anything else stand out to you when you were using the Copilot demo? Yeah. So beyond the purchases, you can track other accounts.

So you can link to investments, loans, real estate, things like that, and get a better picture of your assets and debt. And it's all very visually appealing. So it uses these graphs and emoji icons, which makes it kind of easy to sort through the information at a glance. And it seems like it's pretty intuitive to use. And that user friendliness can sometimes make all the difference, right? An app with helpful features isn't probably going to end up being all that helpful if everything looks messy and chaotic, or if things are hard to find. Yeah, that really stood out to me too. I

mean, the app is just nice to look at. I'm a big user of all apps in dark mode. And it seems like Copilot is permanently in dark mode. So it's not as harsh on your eyes. And maybe that's where the annual and monthly fee is going is to paying people to make it look really nice, which would make me want to use it more. Yeah, that's true. But something to note is that Copilot is only available for Mac and iPhone right now. So it's not going to be an option for everybody if they don't have a compatible device. So Peter also mentioned something called YNAB, which if you've never heard of it stands for you need a budget. It's a very popular budgeting tool. Can you talk about how it works? Yeah, YNAB is another subscription based

service. This one costs $14.99 a month or $99 per year, so similar to Copilot. And it also connects with financial accounts, but you don't have to link accounts to use it, which is pretty cool. YNAB is built around these four money rules. And the most important one is to give every dollar a job. And that's basically, if people are familiar with, it's the zero-based budgeting method of creating a plan for how you're going to spend each dollar of your income. So you prioritize your essentials first until you have zero dollars left to portion out. And it's also kind of this digital version of the envelope system or cash stuffing method. So you add personalized categories and you estimate or plan your ideal spending amount for each one. For example, you

can make individual budgets for your bills, your groceries, your vacation fund, and so on. And then YNAB will suggest how much of your income to allocate to those different categories, or you can choose the custom amount that you want to go towards those categories. Yeah, YNAB is a really interesting app because it can be very useful, but it requires you to be very hands-on. And we've received questions from listeners before wondering whether I actually would be a big fan of YNAB because of the way that I have my savings buckets set up, where I have specific savings accounts for specific categories, which is kind of like having a purpose for every single dollar, but I'm not that granular with it. And I find the maintenance

involved in apps like this to be too time consuming for my personal way of managing my finances. Yeah, I sort of feel the same way. If there's a lot of maintenance, a lot of ongoing maintenance, I am less likely to continue using something over time, because that initial burst of energy and of motivation fades. And I think that happens to pretty much everybody. But some people love the constant accountability of going in and constantly making updates and checking in on progress. And so really, just you have to know yourself. If you want that experience of continuously going in and checking on on how you're doing and checking in on the app, then something like YNAB would be more appealing. If you kind of want to be hands-off, then it might be a little

much for you. Right. There's also a huge YNAB community online. I am a lurker on the YNAB subreddit. And about half of the posts that I get in my feed on the YNAB subreddit are people saying, why isn't this working for me? What did I do wrong? Because there's so much maintenance that goes into it. But those who get it down right, find it really rewarding. It can just come down to knowing if that's your personal style of managing your finances. You want to know where every single dollar is going. If you're a little more hands-off like Sarah and me, maybe not the best fit. Exactly. And I totally fall into that camp too of I don't want to be hands-on and I'd like to think about it as little as possible. But for some people, a budget's not going to stick unless they're actively doing it often. And I think apps like YNAB where you have to go in and you have to

log things or categorize things can keep you on top of it. And it also kind of gives you this quick hit, almost like checking social media, right? It gives you something to do and look forward to. Yeah. Budgets in general are conversations between yourself and your finances. And it's an ongoing conversation that you're continuing to revise over time. And having the active inputs into YNAB can help you be really clear and intentional with what you're saying to yourself through your finances. So that's something else to think about too. But now, Lauren, I want to turn to another budgeting app, Mint, which is in its final days as we are recording this podcast. It's being absorbed into the Credit Karma app, which won't have the same capabilities.

So a lot of folks are going to be shopping around for new budgeting apps. With that in mind, what are the main things that people should be on the lookout for when they're comparing one app versus another? You mentioned a few earlier, but can you get even more into detail on this? Yeah, there are a lot of things to consider. Cost is a big one, like we mentioned earlier. So is the app free or do you have to pay? And if you're considering paying for an app, really think first about how much you can afford and then pay attention to what exactly you would get for that money. And then related to that, carefully look at what features are offered. For example, again, we talked about can you link your accounts? If so,

what kind of accounts and how many because some apps will have limits. Another thing is whether you can import or export transaction data. And that's a big one for people who might be worried about losing their mint history once that app shuts down. So you might want to look for an app that lets you download your financial data or upload it from somewhere else. And then also look at how the company presents your information to you. So can you create those custom budget categories or spending tags, or maybe preset categories are good enough. And something else that you can look for is an app that suits your goals and your money personality. You know, we talked about the level of hands-on versus hands-off.

Do you want an app that helps you track every penny or are you looking for a broader view of your finances? Does it help you stay on top of bills or can you make a plan to pay off debt? Do you want to check your credit score? And then are you looking to budget on your own or with a partner? Because some apps will allow shared budgeting, but most of them are for individuals. I know that security and customer support are also really important. Can you talk about those a little bit? Sure. With security, especially if you have your personal or financial information linked with the account, it's really important to protect that information. But you'll want to look for things like encryption or password protection to keep that information

safe. And if the app is using a third-party service, say to link your financial accounts or to negotiate bills, you'll want to make sure that that service is also reputable and follows the safety practices. As far as customer support options, customer support options can be good to pay attention to. Does the app limit you to FAQs on a help page, for example, or are you able to chat with a live person if you need help? So there's all these different things you can think about. And some might be contingent upon if you're using the free version or the paid version. So those are things to think about. And reading user reviews can be really helpful too. They can help you work through some of those

issues. But yeah, it's kind of a matter of what level of handholding might you need to get set up. Or if it seems like you're going to need a lot of handholding, then maybe it's not something you want to consider. And it also might come down to how well these budgeting apps play with the financial institutions that you work with. For example, I don't know why, but the bank that I have for my high yield savings accounts does not play nicely with Plaid, which is a tool that connects financial companies to a lot of these budgeting apps. So if I find that an app I want

to use relies on Plaid, I won't use it as heavily, because I know I'm not going to be able to get regular insights on what the balance on my savings accounts is. And as I've talked about a lot in this podcast, I rely on those accounts heavily for my day-to-day spending and saving. Yeah, I've had experiences with budgeting apps that think my mortgage payments are charitable contributions, which they're definitely not. So they think I don't live anywhere, but I'm very generous and I have to go back in and manually recategorize every month as housing instead of charity. And it's my largest single monthly expense. So it's for me a big miss because a major part of budgeting are your housing costs. Right. That would get me to stop using that app. I'll say that.

It did. I will not name the app. Maybe the app is listening and they'll get that insight. Okay. Well, I always love to hear how fellow nerds use or do not use budgeting apps. So Lauren, Sarah, you want to tell me what you guys do? Sure. So sounds like a shameless plug, but I do use the NerdWallet app to track my spending and income. I like that it shows the breakdowns by category and also the 50-30-20 budget. So I can see how much money I'm spending on my needs, my wants, and my savings in debt. And it's also good for keeping an eye on my credit score too. So I can check that every few days or a week, depending on how I'm feeling. But every once in a while, my husband

and I will also make spreadsheets for planning future or kind of hypothetical expenses. Like if we want to see how changes to our health insurance costs, for example, might affect the rest of our budget, we can play around with the numbers in a way that doesn't affect the tracking of our current actual spending. Yeah, I've used budgeting apps in the past, as I've said. I also find that one of the issues is for the apps that use linking to your bank accounts, sometimes they unlink and you have to like re-log in to the account. And for me, that just becomes regular maintenance. And I notice it because the numbers that I'm getting off of the app are dramatically wrong. And it's because they suddenly just don't have like my

retirement accounts anymore, because they just unlinked that one section of my life. All those little frustrations add up and can make it so you don't even want to engage with your budget on top of budgets not being the most exciting topic to begin with. So yeah, it's frustrating for sure. Yeah, user experience is huge with apps in general. So if you're listening to this, and you work for budgeting apps, just take my feedback. I haven't found a single app that can keep all of my accounts listed and updated regularly with any reliability. So I tend to use a couple I do use the nerd wallet app to track my credit score and weekly spending. I recently started to use quicken,

which I really like because it does a nice job of visualizing my spending categories and investments and net worth. And also I can put in prompts like, Oh, tell me how much I spent on restaurants over the past quarter. And it will break that down for me, which is not a nice thing for me to see because I spend a lot at restaurants. But it's cool that I can get these insights if I want to really dig deep into little facets of my spending. And most importantly, I don't have to do a lot of ongoing maintenance to get those insights. It's almost like asking ChatGPT how much you spend. Yeah. Lauren, do you have any final words of wisdom for those who are maybe looking for a new budgeting app? We talked about this briefly, but I would just emphasize the importance of reading user reviews online. That can be a really helpful way to get a better understanding of all of these different

things that we talked about. So what are people saying about the app? Is it functioning well for them? Are they running into problems? Do they have similar accounts that you do? You know, things like that, that you can pay attention to. Take it with a grain of salt and be careful, again, if you're running into, especially with social media, TikTok, Instagram influencers who might have a paid agenda to push something. So just really pay attention to where you're getting these reviews from and then make use of any of those free trial periods or demo modes so you can get a feel of something before you potentially commit money to it. Great. Well, Lauren, thank you so much for talking with us. Of course. Thank you. And that is all we have for this episode. If you have a money question

of your own, turn to the nerves and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. You can also email your questions to us at podcast at nerdwallet.com. Visit nerdwallet.com slash podcast for more info on this episode. And remember to follow, rate, and review us wherever you're getting this podcast. This episode was produced by Sarah Rathner and me. We had editing help from Tess Viglin. Kevin Tidmarsh mixed our audio. And a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all their help. And here's our brief disclaimer. We're not financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances. And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.