NFL Stock Exchange: An NFL Draft Podcast - 14. Boom or Bust Prospects and Scouting Defense with Leger Douzable

Episode Date: February 22, 2022

Connor opens the latest NFLSE breaking down the issues with the NFL Combine and why many prospects might not test until their pro days. Former 10-year NFL DL Leger Douzable joins the show to discuss boom or bust round 1 prospects, scouting every level of the defense, the adjustments for pass rushers when they get to the league and much more.

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. I'm sure by now you've all gotten back into your Sunday routines, but they could be even better with NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV. You get the most live NFL games all in one place, every game, every Sunday. And you can even watch up to four different games at once with MultiView, one of my favorite inventions of this decade. It's exactly what you need to catch all the action. Make your Sundays more magical. And also, YouTube TV is great.

I got it this year. It's awesome. Sign up now at youtube.com slash BS, device and content restrictions apply. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday ticket for out-of-market games excludes digital-only games. Welcome to the opening bell of the NFL Stock Exchange. I'm your host, Connor Rogers. It is Trevor's last day or last show on vacation. He will be back with me Thursday as we bring you another positional preview.

But today, still got a fun show in store for you as I was joined by LeJay Duesable, 10-year NFL veteran along the defensive line, and is now doing ESPN color commentary for college football. He's been riding on the action to see teams like Cincinnati, Houston, a lot of big-time programs that have big-time prospects in this year's draft. So we'll sit down with LeJay and go through. He is deep in the draft, so we'll go through scouting defensive linemen, scouting really all of the defense.

We'll talk about a lot of boom or bust prospects that are projected to go in the first round of this draft and even a little bit about Kayvon Thibodeau and what makes him a polarizing potential top three overall pick. So it's great to talk to LeJay about the adjustments for defensive linemen and defenders as a whole going from college to the NFL level, something he's experienced and what he sees for a lot of the top and even day two prospects like that in this class. So a really good conversation that you will

want to stay around for as I talk to him. And before we do that, kind of want to dive into what's going on with the NFL Combine. Obviously, the NFL Stock Exchange is a very draft-centric, draft-heavy show, and the NFL Combine is arguably the biggest draft-centric event of the year, besides when players actually hear their names called. So as you know, Trevor and I will be on the ground in Indy for the NFL Combine, which is quickly approaching. It'll be next week. And right now, with the bubble the NFL has created, which separates players from whether it's their trainers, really their team of people that are including their agents, their team of people that are preparing them for the draft, which is a long process. A lot of these guys, some even started early. But as soon as the season ends, there's not much of a break for them. They get on a very specific regimen from nutrition to sleep, and obviously the training to prepare for their testing. So now we have an

interesting situation that, you know, agents are obviously upset with. And it's not just agents, it's, you know, trainers, people that prepare these prospects for the draft, because maybe not necessarily an app, you know, some of it, but not necessarily an absolute you know some of it but not necessarily the bubble itself but the fact of when this news was announced as we sit here you know getting towards late February and the combine is the first week of March and you now have an effect of a little bit of chaos something they were not planning for something that puts the players in an uncomfortable situation for the biggest job interview of their life is, you know, the cliche people like to use, but it's very much real. And you have to understand the player side of this.

What you see on TV is different than what a lot of NFL teams actually fully utilize the combine for. The testing is fun. It's TV entertainment. It's great. You have, you know, the 40 yard dash and you see incredible feats of athleticism, whether it's the explosive nature of the jumps, obviously, even people get excited over the bench press in this era. But, you know, with teams, the most vital aspect coming out of the combine more often than not is the medical evaluations they get to do. And that's why Indy has been a popular spot for the NFL combine because the, you know,

proximity of everything in one walkable spot to get all these things done with, you know, over 300 players and their parties that travel in. And then you have every NFL team and the NFL team sends a massive amount of employees to the combine. And it's really the place to get everything done. And for medical evaluations which can sometimes unfortunately take a player completely off the board for a team and then you also have the interviews facetime right this is the the rare opportunity for them to sit down in a closed off environment one-on-one and get to know the player

how they'll fit with the culture of their team pick their brain get a feel for what kind of person they might be or you know what kind of football player they are away from a football environment necessarily um so now you have a an environment or you're you're creating a situation where agents understandably in this uncomfortable nature with the bub with the bubble this uncomfortable environment that they are away from their specific regimen. It's already uncomfortable to begin with, whether it's the lack of sleep, the, you know, volatility of the schedule in a sense that they're not used to. And it doesn't create the optimal environment for their testing numbers and their their best performance where the pro day everything is essentially structured by the training staff they're preparing with it's at their college

campus more often than not it's an environment that you know everything right you know the surface you're running on it comes down to that it's there's just so much at hand you're creating the workout itself more often than not you're just in a more comfortable atmosphere. So I know us in the draft world always like to do the old, you know, don't trust the pro day time as much. Guys that don't work out at the combine and then work out at the pro day, and somebody might run a 4-3 that you thought would run a 4-5-5. Well, you know, sometimes we look at that 4-3 and go,

it's really a 4-4. But there is a nature to it of, you know, how comfortable they are. And I think that is what has led us to where we are right now where because of the bubble making things even more difficult for the players there is an advisement there it sounds like for these players to still attend in indie but they will do what the team's prioritized the most that's not on tv and that is the medical evaluations and the interview process, and then leave the testing to the pro day. So they'll still have testing numbers put into the system.

It just won't be in a place where they feel like they won't put out their best performance. So an absolutely fascinating scenario going on. It makes you wonder if the NFL, and this would surprise me if the NFL scales back on the bubble situation they've implemented and completely wipe it off the board. Do the agents go back to this and say, OK, now everybody will work out? Or do they feel like, you know what, this still is just not the optimal place for our clients? So the NFL Combine, absolutely fascinating news in the NFL draft world. And, you know, kind of wanted to kick off today's show with that but like I said we have a lot of great stuff in store for you on the NFL Stock Exchange Trevor will be back Thursday we're gonna go do a deep dive on the defensive lineman

in this class which is a really really interesting group top fives obviously players on the outside looking in and much more along with that and you kind of get the appetizer of that in a really much different way with lege ducible a guy that's obviously played in the nfl that's done it and now is very deep in the analysis world but also of scouting there are a lot of guys that do call football games so there are a lot of guys that do actual in-season in-studio analysis but they don't necessarily kick into draft after the new year. And knowing Liget the way I do, he is one of those guys that does put in that full work with the actual draft process. So before we get into the interview, I want to remind you, if you like the show,

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And for 25% off, just use the code NFL stock exchange for any subscription. All right. Sit tight and enjoy the interview with lege now very happy to be joined by a friend of mine a busy man espn college football color analyst he does jets pre and post game long time nfl defensive lineman a decade in the nfl lege duzable lege what's going on man how are you i'm good connor i'm busy just like you you know prepping for this this combine which there's a lot in the news about that and the restrictions the NFL have put on some of these players as far as what you know what they

can and can't do if they're going to be in a bubble and then uh you know just catching up on film and getting ready for the combine and the draft coming up yeah you truly do go from you know a lot of guys do whether it's color studio analysis, but you truly do go fully into the draft as soon as the new year strikes. You're definitely one of my favorite people to talk to, especially when it's defensive prospects. We've done a ton of work together, whether it's the Jets drafts or anything like that. So I'm excited to have you on really just go through this defensive class as a whole. And the first thing I want to start with is the most obvious came on Thibodeau kind of been the hot topic you know it's almost like people were bored about talking of him in September and October and November and now we've done the full circle

when you look at Thibodeau is there I know you've tweeted about this is there an adjustment period you see where he's not this typical slam dunk number one number two overall pick as we've seen in the past like a Miles Garrett like a chase young and what are some of those things that you notice when watching him yeah first and foremost and me and you have talked about this connor everybody has to get this notion out of their head that there is a nick bosa that there is a miles garrett that there is a von there is none of those in this draft class now this defensive line slash defensive tackle group can be one of the deepest groups we've seen in years

as far as the whole group put together, right? There's some good depth there. But if you're talking about a slam-duck guy like Miles Garrett or Von Miller or Nick Bosa or Joey Bosa, there's not one of those guys in this class. So speaking of Kayvon Thibodeau, you love the explosiveness coming out of the stands. You love the fight that he plays with. You. You love the fight that he plays with.

You love the grit and anger that he plays with. My concern when it comes to Kayvon Thibodeau is watching film, he just beats mostly everybody with speed to power. And in this league, you're not going to be able to do that, especially – I know he stands about 6'6", or 6'5", 260, but you're not going to be able to run through Trent Williams, right? You're not going to run through, you know, most offensive tackles in this game.

A guy like Makai Beckton, if healthy, you're not going to just speed the power of a guy like that, right? And he has stiff hips, right? He has trouble flipping his hips. Now, he can bend some, but as far as being able to flip his hips, I've seen some comparisons to Chandler Jones, and I was like, that's just absurd. Chandler Jones, to me, is one of the best rushers

as far as flipping his hips at the top of the rush. Like, I haven't seen too many people flip their hips as well as Chandler Jones can do. So Kayvon Thibodeau gives you a lot of explosion. Another thing that concerns me is the conference that he's in. I mean, you talked about this off camera. There's not many Pac-10, you know, offensive tackles that are coming off the board this year in this year's draft.

So you got to talk about looking at a prospect and where you project him as. I don't think he's going to be just a slam duck like everybody thinks he is right away. I think it's going to take him going to the right system. He has to work on his hand usage because, again, you can't beat everybody with a speed dip and you can't beat everybody with speed to power. He needs to work on his hand usage because, again, you can't beat everybody with a speed dip and you can't beat everybody with speed to power. He needs to work on his hand uses. Perfect example. Jermaine Johnson, the guy that we've talked about in depth about like this is a guy that went and worked on his craft. And I'm not just talking about from when he transferred from Georgia to Florida State.

I'm talking about from when he left Florida State, just preparing for the senior bowl. Like this guy came out with an arsenal of pass rush moves that we hadn't seen on film so that's what you like to see a prospect going realizing like i need to work on you know my moves get in my bag work on different moves and that's what jermaine johnson did so i would like to see cave on tibble take it to the next level so i believe he's gonna have to go to a right system with a good coach and that's the thing about the NFL. It's so dependent sometimes on the prospect going to the right system, right? Because a guy that has so much potential could get wasted. His talent could get wasted if he goes to the wrong system

or he doesn't have a coach that can really bring out that skill set out of him. So when it comes to Kayvon Tibble, the things that just concern me is his stiffness, not being able to flip his hips at the top of the rush. And then him just beating everybody with speed, the power or speed dips. That's not what you're going to be able to do in the NFL. So you've been through that process. You had double digit sacks in your college career,

and then you go to the NFL and you played for a really long time. So what were the things like maybe in the first or second training camp? I'm sure it's the first one that you're like, okay, I can't do this anymore. I can't get away with that against NFL starters, maybe against camp bodies, maybe against a ton of college guys. But now this is a way I need to round out my game that, let's be real, a lot of these guys, not just edge rushers, but also interior guys are going to have to deal with as well.

Yeah, you hear speed of the game, but more so to me, it's like in college, right? Everybody that gets to the league was the best player on their team essentially right so sometimes you're just being athletically better stronger than somebody is going to be able to be enough to beat somebody in college whereas in the NFL it comes down to technique and that was the biggest thing for me right there was a lot of stuff I didn't learn until i got to the nfl it's so different for these guys now connor as far as all the camps all the you know positional coaches they can work with in the offseason yeah like so like when i was in high school it wasn't

that like it was football then we went i played basketball then i played some spring you know football but it wasn't never like i had an individual coach that i worked with one-on-one. These kids, man, the weapons and the things at their disposal to really elevate their craft is just ridiculous. Even all the camps. There was one O-line, D-line camp when I came out in high school. There's literally 15 now. There's no excuse not to work on your craft year-round if you truly want to do this. They're so far ahead than when I came out in 2008, you know, coming into college. I mean, coming into the NFL, like I had good coaches in college.

But as far as just like realizing that the technique and fundamentals and how to actually attack half a man and rushing in and in the run game. Like, I didn't understand that until I got to the league. And thank God I got with a guy like Carl Dunbar, my rookie year, because who knows how long I would have lasted in the league if I didn't have him. And then Mike Waffle was my next coach. Another great guy who had, you know, O.C., Tuck, Strahan. And these were the guys that he was tasked with coaching. So, you know, you got to be on your A game when you're coaching that, you know, caliber of talent. So I was blessed to have my first two coaches be some of the best coaches in the NFL, as far as D line playing and understanding what to do and how to attack half a man, how to attack offensive linemen and their schemes and protect and protections and things like that. So I was

just blessed to be able to go to the right situation. And that's why I say sometimes it's so pivotal that if a guy doesn't have all those techniques down, that it's important to go to the right situation. And that's why I say sometimes it's so pivotal that if a guy doesn't have all those techniques down that it's important to go to the right scheme because his talent could get lost. We see it all the time. I mean, a perfect example, right, Arden Key this past year. Guys thought he was a bust. He goes to San Francisco, gets six and a half sacks,

and is probably going to get paid. So where you go matters. And I always say this, coaching matters. It's big in the NFL because somebody could say a guy is washed or he never really realized his skill set, but it was the coaching that was the difference. And he goes to one place and then succeeds. So coaching matters.

He's going to have to go to the right coach, I think, for him to really realize, you know, his talent now. I think he's going to be an explosive guy regardless. Coming out the gate, I can see him getting five or six sacks per season. But if he really wants to elevate his game and get into that double-digit range, he's going to have to go to the right coach. Yeah, I think it's so interesting, pass rushers or defensive linemen as a whole. It's the one position that when you look at it,

they really hit their stride closer to 27 than these running backs. That's why i hit mine 100 that's why i hit mine and it's across the board i mean we saw year three rashaun gary this year totally different player so darius smith never had a double digit sack season for baltimore he goes to green bay at 27 13 and a half sacks and there are millions of guys like this that they just i mean even you go back to somebody like carl lawson he got a huge money deal without ever having this monster season for the bengals There are millions of guys like this that they just, I mean, even you go back to somebody like Carl Lawson, he got a huge money deal without ever having this monster season for the Bengals, but you're projecting the growth and projecting him fully figuring it out. So I think a lot of people need to realize that with the draft,

especially in this class where a lot of these guys are really raw. So it kind of leads me to my next thing. You know, we were both at the senior bowl. There was a lot of good talent in the trenches across the board there. And this doesn't have to be a Senior Bowl guy. It could be a guy that you called a game for. It could be anybody. But who's an edge pass rusher or interior D-line in this class

that doesn't have to be the best player on the board, but somebody that you would bang the table for in the draft room and say, I know what that guy is. I like him a lot. And he's better than a lot of people realize. Yeah. I mean mean the obvious one is jermaine johnson we talked about him so i'll go a little bit off the cuff uh i'll go the tackle perry and winfrey and this is a guy we talked about off camera this is a guy that was in the

wrong system and we talked about that right in oklahoma they had him over the nose and that's that's not what he does right this is a three technique that can get in the backfield and create havoc so a guy that fits perfectly in that cover three system with you know the seattle seahawks with the new york jets uh the old jacksonville system a guy that's a three technique that can get in the backfield create havoc and give you some pass rush ability he is your three technique that is going to push the pocket and make sure when the defensive ends get to the top of the rush that the quarterback can't step up this is a guy that just creates ends get to the top of the rush that the quarterback can't step up. This is a guy that just creates havoc.

And to me, he made the most money out of anybody, not just defensive line, out of anybody at the Senior Bowl. You saw what he did in the game. Two sacks created havoc all the time in the backfield. But that was a microcosm of what he did the whole week in Mobile, Alabama. Like, he couldn't be blocked. And I just loved his energy. You hear people talk about Dog. he truly has dog in him i actually talked to one of my ex-teammates dave tollison who coached him in juco and said he loves the kid he's he's a he's a scrapper he's a

fighter and you love to have a guy like that it's always easier for a coach to tell a guy to slow down and to pick up his tempo and what perry and win for you is always gonna have to tell a guy to slow down and to pick up his tempo. And what Perry and Winfrey, you're always going to have to tell him to slow down because he is a guy that's going to continuously come off the three technique and create havoc in the backfield. So that's the one guy in the defensive tackle. I say that the close second would be Travis Jones. I think he made a lot of money. This is a guy, and I know his agent personally.

He was my agent, Jared Fox for Sports Stars. This is a guy probably going into Mobile week that a lot of people may be seeing as a fifth, sixth-round pick. He has good film, but it was consistency that was his issue, right? Can he dominate all the times? There's times on film where you see him just dominate. Guys, Clemson being the perfect example, then there's times where he just disappears on film.

And, you know, with the NFL, it's all about consistency. Well, I think down in Mobile, he showed for three consistent days that he could be down it, and he's almost impossible to block when he goes full tilt. And he showed you now he's not just a run-gap, you know, clogger. He can get after the passer, right? He has some nimbleness, has some bend to him, and he showed well in one-on-one pass rush, not just using power,

being able to counter off of power and get off blocks and get to the quarterback. So he's a guy also, I said, in a defensive tackle position that's really made some money the last few weeks. Going to edge, we talked about Jermaine Johnson, a guy that I also really like who people were high on but have kind of fallen off, not a lot, but some, is Majay Sanders. Absolutely.

This is a guy that I've seen grow the last three years at cincinnati and to me he he actually reminds me more of chandler jones than you know cave on tibble does as far as his length and size and how he's able to flip his hips at the top of the route now i just got to get him to get his pad level down he plays a little bit high sometimes but he plays physical and he plays non-stop you never have to tell this guy not to play with energy. He's always a guy that's running after the ball, play in and play out. So you love those effort type guys. So this is a guy I think that may slip to the second round.

Coming into the season, I had him as a first round pick, but I think he will slip to the top of the second. But wherever he goes, a team is going to be excited to get a player like him because he plays so hard. He's raw just like a lot of these these uh other players are um he can probably play three four outside linebacker or or i have him as a right end um he can even play left end because he plays some of that at the senior bowl but i think he's a better better as a right end than than a left hand and then uh two other guys that are hybrid guys, right? Logan Hall from the university. And you saw him this year, right?

Yeah, I saw him a lot this year, last couple years. So before I was calling games for ESPN this past year, I was calling games for UCF on the radio. So I saw him the last three years just like MyJay Sanders and seeing him grow. This guy is unbelievable. Peyton Turner, who the New Orleans Saints took last year, I think helped in Logan Hall's development and where he could potentially go.

Some guys have him slated late first, you know, maybe early second. This is a versatile guy that can play inside, outside. To me, I think he's best suited for a 4-3 left end and then kicking inside. That's where you're going to get the most bang for your buck, inside at the three technique, rushing on third downs. This is a guy that can get after the quarterback, and he showed that all week long in Mobile. going to get the most bang for your buck inside at the three technique rushing on third downs. This is a guy that can get after the quarterback, and he showed that all week long in Mobile. And then another guy that I like that a lot of people haven't talked about, Zach Carter from Florida, man.

You talk about versatility, a guy that can kick in outside. He played up and down the line at the University of Florida, did the same thing for the Detroit Lions on the American side in Mobile during the Senior Bowl, and did a really good job playing three, four in, being able to play three technique, even playing outside on the American side in Mobile during the senior bowl and did a really good job playing 3-4 in, being able to play three technique, even playing outside on the edge on the offensive tackle. So this is a guy I think that may go in the third round, but whoever gets him, they could potentially get a long-time starter wherever he goes. It shows you how loaded the defensive line class is,

just to run through these names. And it's not just these guys from the you know these guys from the sec these guys from the big 10 every single conference had legitimate top 75 talent in this draft along the defensive line so you know when you look at someone like travis jones is it almost overlooked throughout the season by people that like when you're the guy on the defensive line right he played for yukon let's be real they've had their own problems as a program for a while as much as he's a great player and you're on the interior where if the offense wants to they can easily double you which not just chipping you with a running back or a tight end they can legit put two big bodies on you is it easy for a guy like that to be overlooked and

that's why when we get down to the all-star games you see him in one-on-ones and you're like wow I was not ready for this I was not expecting this because it's almost an easier transition for someone like him yeah i think you get lost when you're not on a really good team um even though you're the star of that team everybody's like well you're the star of a terrible team yeah but the thing about travis jones is like there was times where he was dominant even with double teams there was times in a ucf game in a clemson game, where guys could not block him, like seriously. And it was funny. So in the game that I called versus UCF, I was talking to Herbert Hand,

the offensive line coach for UCF, and he was telling me at 57, he was like, that's the one guy we got to – and it's crazy when a coach comes up to you before the game and you're on the field just trying to see what trying to see, you know, what the weather's like, how everybody's warming up. Yeah, that 57 from UConn, yeah, they've struggled, but we got to block him or it's going to be a long day for us. And that's the type of skill set that Travis Jones brings.

And I think, like I said before, it was just all about being consistent. If he could be consistent, this guy could be one of the dominant guys in this class and he could potentially consistent, this guy could be one of the dominant guys in this class, and he could potentially have a long 8-, 9-, 10-year career being dominant as a nose tackle. He has a little bit of Javon Hargrave in him as far as not just being able to hold up against the double team, but as far as pushing the pocket and giving you three or four yards in the pass rush game. That way, quarterbacks can't step up into the pocket. So this is a guy that I think his trajectory is definitely going up. It'll be interesting to see what he runs.

I've heard he could run sub five, which is a nightmare for a guy that's that size. It makes absolutely no sense. It's freakish. He's a freakish athletic guy for somebody that could potentially weigh 325, 330 and be moving like that. It just makes no sense. Two underclassmen I wanted to ask you about because there is a lot of ranging projections on them would be george carloftis and david ajabo and i think we've kind of seen them all over the place but at least cemented in round

one like you see carloftis a lot in the top 10 at least the top 15 ajabo has bounced around anywhere from the falcons at eight all the way to the bills in the back end around one. When you look at two fascinating players, right? They're not, they weren't not American born players. So the game came to them late. So it's incredible how fast they blew up on the scene and have developed into legitimate round one prospects. How do you project a guy like that? Where like a job, let's be real.

If he stayed one more year at Michigan, there's a chance he's a top five pick in 2023. Cause he's that freakish and he can get stronger in his lower half. And then you look at Carl Loftus who I think there's no doubt he'll be a solid player, but it's hard to project. Is he going to be a star or not? Or just a solid edge? Cause you don't just draft solid edges in the top 10. You take them really at the back end around one. So how do you, how do you look at those two guys with so much projection for both of them yeah for george carloff it's i've been back and forth right i'm a guy that's saying there's no way and hell i take him in the top 10 because i do believe he's going to be a really good pro right i think he's going to be a really good left hand he has great hand you already stated a guy that wasn't born in this country

came late onto the football game. But that's a really good job with his hands. But then you see certain times like versus Ohio State, you see Jeremy Rucker putting hands on him and disreacting him in the pass rush game. So I think he's going to be a really good pro. I wouldn't take him in the top 10. Yeah, I think honestly, late teens, 20 would be the sweet spot for me with Carl office. A job I'd probably reach a little bit more on because you talked about it, right? The twitchiness, the explosiveness coming out of his stance.

He has a little bit of that JPP in his game as far as JPP was kind of raw to football. Only played one year at USF, was at JUCO. But it was a freakish athletic player, so they saw the trajectory and where he could go. And I think that's where Jabo could go. I think, honestly, out of all the defensive ends in this draft, I think he has the highest ceiling because you don't know what it is. He's that freakish athletic that you don't know what his ceiling is. And as long as he gets with the right coach, and that's what we talked about again, the right coaching, and they could really build off of that athleticism where he

could be more consistent with his hand because he has the bend. He has the flip of the hips. again the right coaching and they could really you know build off that athleticism where he could be more consistent with his hand because he has the bend he has the flip of the hips he has all that he's just raw to the game yeah so you don't know what he's going to become and that's why to me like Aiden Hutchinson is a guy that's going to play 10 to 12 years and be a really good pro but Ojabo has a bigger ceiling than him honestly if we're speaking candidly I think Ojabo has the biggest ceiling in this draft class as far as defensive ends because you don't know what his ceiling can be yeah i would agree i think ojabo as much as i love hutchinson he's the easy pick you know what you're getting you said he's the safest pick for sure for sure the safest pick maybe in the entire

draft at least out of the pass rushers uh no doubt about that but with a job oh there's more projection but a bigger ceiling because of how explosive he is all right the last thing i wanted to ask you about because you got to see this team um up close and personal a lot and they're just there's nfl draft players on this defense galore with cincinnati and it starts with you know we've talked a lot on this show about the defensive line but i know you know your corners and safety is damn well and they got you know sauce gardner brian cook and this is a program that is starting to uh really it's looking about kobe bryant and and kobe bryant across you had a great senior bowl i mean it's just they are loaded with picks that'll go in the top three rounds and you talked about my jay sanders so one do you think sauce gardner is the top corner in this class and the

cincinnati defense is there a bit of they played so well as a unit or collectively individually uh they are legitimate you know top end nfl draft prospects yeah 100 to me first and foremost sauce garner is the number one quarter i know people will say derrick stingley jr but the thing is with the nfl and with anything right uh availability is your best ability and we haven't really seen a lot of stingley jr the last two years going back to his 19 film, it was damn, damn dominant. But Sauce Garner, he's put together three years of film that is hard to rival. And you'll hear people all during the draft process talk about, he's never given up a touchdown.

But it's just more than that. This guy is a guy that can play press man, corner, get in your face. I think he stands about 6'2", 6'3 three like he's a big long corner and can run physical at the line of scrimmage will come up and hit you in the run game and we saw that you know versus alabama in the college football playoffs how many times he had to come up and run support and hit this is a guy that's not scared to hit you so to me undoubtedly i think even if he was eligible to come out last year even with you know patrickertain and a few other good corners, he'd still win first round because I think that's how good he is.

Kobe Bryant is a guy that doesn't get enough love. Even though he won, I believe, the Belinda call for the best corner or whatever. He won that award because he's very opportunistic with the ball in his hand. And he's obviously got tested more than Solskjaer, because teams are smarter. Like, we're not going to go with that guy over there. They don't throw his way. Yeah.

We're going to go with the other guy. But sometimes he gets in trouble with his patience at the line of scrimmage. But he had a great week in Mobile, as you stated, right? And I think he's a guy that's probably going to slide into the third round. I was trying to see if maybe he would slide into the second. That's what I'm wondering. From what I've been hearing, most likely it's going to be the third round. But I think he's going to have a good career.

Kobe Bryant I think is going to have a good career. He's a guy that could probably play eight to ten years at corner and be a solid number two corner. And then you talk about Cooks. He hasn't been talked about enough. I know. This guy can play in the box. He can play half field safety.

He has great ball skills. Will hit you in the box he can play you know half field safety he has great ball skills will hit you in the run game um i just loved his film at at cincinnati and it's like cincinnati's they had wiggins uh you know last day they just put out good defensive players yeah db's period but defensive players period and i think it goes back to what marcus freeman and luke fickle really brought into that program because they they deal with a lot of transfers, right? And it's hard to really keep that continuity of your team when you're dealing with a lot of transfers. Even a guy like Darren Beavers that came in and transferred in.

Like these are guys that transferred in and they come to Cincinnati because it's almost like going to a Big Ten school, right? Because they know that on defense they're going to get some transfers. Even on offense they're going to get some transfers. Even on offense, they're going to get some transfers. And these guys are going to be ready to play. And they come from big-time programs. So they're used to playing at high levels. So kudos to Luke Fickle and, you know,

Marcus Freeman left and went to Notre Dame. But what they've done with that program, it's almost kind of like what UCF did, like, early in the 2013 through 2018 seasons, where, like, guys were coming into that program and just uplifting it and they just kept the ball rolling kept the ball rolling and we saw last last or this past year in the college football playoffs that Cincinnati belonged there right you know people were so worried about them being belonging there and then we saw Michigan get ran out the gym ran off the field so now everybody's like well did Michigan belong there so um I think that's something that they'll

look toward in the future it looks like they're gonna extend the college football playoff to only four teams maybe for the next four years and honestly that's probably the right thing I was you know hoping that maybe they'd move it to eight so teams like Cincinnati and UCF always had a chance to get in but um now that Cincinnati has got in, it looks like it'll be more apt for a team like a UCF or Houston or Cincinnati if they go undefeated to get in and play with the big boys and fight and compete for a national championship. But going back to what you said, the talent that Cincinnati defense has put out the last few years, man, it's just been ridiculous. They rival some of the top schools in all of college football.

Yeah, they've capitalized on the transfer portal. They've recruited well. And like you said, they have a system in place that's working and developing guys. And the last thing I really want to ask you when you brought it up with Sauce Gardner, you know, for so long I've heard that, like, it's not that it's optional, but coaches or scouts, they don't value DBs, really corners tackling as much as you would expect. And now in a league where there is so much wide zone, everything is being run out.

Right. I was just going to ask, like, if you're looking at it now, these guys more so than ever have to be good. It's it's it's not as valuable as man coverage skill, but it's got to be prioritized in a way where these guys got to be able to survive out there and be able to help and run support. And like you said, that has to give Sauce some kind of edge here, right? Oh, 100%. And it's not just corners coming up and run support, right? Offenses are scheming them out, Connor. If you look at the zone scheme for the Tennessee Titans,

it's scheme for Derek Henry to be one-on-one with a corner or safety. Bad news. Nine out of ten times. Nine out of ten times. So you have to literally stare down the chamber and make that tackle. We saw it on the screenplay to Samadji Piran in the AFC Championship game. The corner, you know, was scared to come down and hit him, and he scampers 40 yards for a touchdown.

Like your corners have to be able to tackle. The day of your corner just being a sticky you know coverage corner some days are over because like you said with the stretch play and the zone play and now the corners can't cut block like it's even it's even more of an emphasis of where a corner's mindset is with its physicality because now that you can't cut all of its alignment on a stretch play you got to come with it right or get ran out of ran out of the field so like that has to be what mentality evaluators look at that they have to look at mentality of a corner and what his physical attributes are and what his physical mentality is because if they miss that tackle then there's nobody else out there on the edge because they're the edge of the defense they have to send that

ball back and if they can't do that then it's going to be a long day for you in the run game all right he's lege ducible you can follow him on twitter at lege ducible espn college football analyst obviously there's a ton of jets coverage and i know we will be doing draft coverage for smy for the jets and a little bit of the giants as well dude thanks so much it was great having you on of course man thanks for having me on connor all right everyone that is another episode of the NFL Stock Exchange in the books. We will be back on Thursday. Thank you.