NFL Stock Exchange: An NFL Draft Podcast - 184. 2024 NFL Draft Summer Scouting: Linebackers

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

Hosts Trevor Sikkema and Connor Rogers continue their Summer Scouting Series with the linebacker rankings. The two talk about the names to know for the potential 2024 class, where they stand heading into the 2023 college football season, and give you their Top 5 pre-season rankings for the position.

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. I'm sure by now you've all got back into your Sunday routines, but they could be even better. With NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV, you get the most live NFL games all in one place, every game, every Sunday. And you can even watch up to four different games at once with MultiView, one of my favorite inventions of this decade. It's exactly what you need to catch all the action. Make your Sundays more magical. And also, YouTube TV is great. I got it this year.

It's awesome. Sign up now at youtube.com slash BS, device and content restrictions apply. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday ticket for out-of-market games excludes digital-only games. Welcome to the NFL Stock Exchange Podcast. In this episode, we are ranking linebackers for the potential 2024 NFL draft class. Linebackers, so many different shapes and sizes now. The position has evolved or devolved depending on who you ask. And it just means that there are so many different shapes and sizes now the position has evolved or devolved depending on

who you ask and it just means that there are so many different types of linebackers makes a little bit tricky to rank but that's what we're going to do we're going to give you our top fives here but also get into that linebacker discussion what makes a good modern day linebacker what that player really looks like i'm trevor sycamore with With me, as always, is Connor Rogers. Let's ring the bell. Welcome to the opening bell of the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. I'm Trevor Sycamore. That man in the Hawaiian shirt. Is it a Hawaiian shirt, Connor? I don't know. It's Connor Rogers. We're here to talk to you guys.

Flowers, Hawaiian, whatever. We're going to get into Connor's fashion as well as a lot of other things here on this podcast. Mainly, what are you guys tuning in for the title? Linebacker rankings. We're going through the potential 2024 class for the linebacker position in the upcoming NFL draft. We're going to talk to you about some of the guys that we're looking forward to for college football this upcoming season, what they're great at, what they need to work on, and ultimately give you guys our top fives for the preseason heading into the regular season.

But, Connor, how are you doing, my friend? You're looking fresh, but I know you're looking fresh because the NBC work started back up for you, right? Yeah, I had to wake up and be an adult and put clothes, like, you know, shower, put clothes on, get in the car and drive to work. You know, that's let's be real. How many? Ninety nine percent of the time on this show, I am wearing a T-shirt, just a colored T-shirt or a stupid whatever on it. When you see me actually dressed like an adult or dressed like I'm on vacation right now, that means I went to work that day. No hat. I actually have my hair done. So means I went to work that day. No hat.

I actually have my hair done. So, yes, back at NBC, Fantasy Football Happy Hour with Matthew Berry, Jake Croucher, and myself is back. For those of you in a fantasy league, I would think almost everyone listening to this is in a fantasy league. Yes. Please. We are, right now we're doing, we're on Peacock at 6 p.m.,

but we will go back to our Monday to Friday schedule at noon every single day, noon Eastern, 12 to 1. We're on Sirius Radio. We're on Peacock. We're on Peacock at 6 p.m., but we will go back to our Monday to Friday schedule at noon every single day. Noon Eastern, 12 to 1. We're on Sirius Radio. We're on Peacock. We're on YouTube. Wherever you – it's a podcast, but it's a show. Listen, we got it all covered, man. It's good to be back at work.

It's good to be in the flow of things, man. I'm feeling good. But it is great to see you back from Las Vegas. You're alive. You're in one piece. You look as good as somebody can look coming back from Vegas. You're alive. You're in one piece. You look as good as somebody can look coming back from Vegas. Let me tell you, the last time I went to Vegas was in January and I came back. I thought it felt pretty good, even though I slept about four hours for three to three to four days.

And then two days later, I was as ill as I've ever been. I got the Vegas flu or whatever it was. It was horrific. So I'm glad to see you in great health and great spirits. How was the trip? Dude, it was great. So this is my third time going to the wonderful, unique city of Las Vegas. It was my fiance's birthday. So we went out to Vegas. Happy birthday, Alyssa. He had never been to Las Vegas before.

And so I tried to do it right. I asked you a little bit about it. I've got some friends who go out there all the time. And I try to piece together right. I asked you a little bit about it. I've got some friends who go out there all the time and I try to piece together the best places to eat because we were there for three and a half days. What? Three and a half days. Yeah. So normally that's an eternity in Vegas, but we planned it all out appropriately to where we weren't trying to burn ourselves out like the first night or even the first couple of nights. So we hit a lot of really great restaurants,

saw a comedy show, saw a Cirque show, sort of went to a Vegas club. We can get into that at a different time. We're not going to get into that right now. But if you guys want to hear that story, you definitely can. Maybe it's like a mailbag episode that you guys are going to have to ask about. But we get really off the rails on those. That makes sense.

We did a great, we had a great time. And yeah, anybody who's listening to this podcast, if you're ever looking for food wrecks in Vegas, I got you, baby. I got you. I thought you were going to be like, don't ask me. I don't know. Yeah, if you're looking for food wrecks.

Wrong podcast. Find them somewhere else. Go somewhere else. No, it's good. This was my kind of like last hurrah before summer vacation was over for me, too. You know, school was back in session, I think, for the both of us going back to this full time work. And now we're we're getting back into the summer scouting series.

So we got linebackers today. And look, I know we said that we'd get to edge rushers next. But because of work schedules and vacation schedules, we didn't have the appropriate time that we wanted to invest in edge rushers next, but because of work schedules and vacation schedules, we didn't have the appropriate time that we wanted to invest in edge rushers because I believe Connor, you said this at the end of last week's podcast, edge rushers, a lot like wide receivers where we've got to watch 15, 20 ish amount of these players and prospects in order to give you guys the full scope of what we think the class is going to be like because it's such an important position so that one's coming next edge rushers coming next we got to linebacker because we didn't want to leave you guys hanging for a week so we got to these linebackers we grinded the tape if you will

and here we're going to give you our top five so um yeah connor linebackers evolving is that the word even like i think a lot of people use the word evolving. But yeah, it's just it's such a strange state. And I know you kind of wanted to talk about this before we dug into the rankings themselves, because how we view these prospects and as Bill Parcells says, the NFL can only take what the college football people give them when it comes to prospects and you kind of have to change your draft strategy as different types of players of all different shapes and sizes are changing at the college level and coming to the

nfl level but it just it we're in this weird predicament right now where i think we're trying to change over what the linebacker really looks like at the NFL level. And it makes for interesting evals across the board. It really does. I find myself with this position as much as any, just looking for the best athletes and hoping that they go to a situation that one fits their skill set of course you could say that about any situation but at linebacker in today's game it matters so much because i mean the long story short of it trevor you know this especially with the data we have at pff and just watching the games this league

has evolved into one that two linebackers not three linebackers are really on the field for a majority of the snaps. And that doesn't mean you have less defenders in the box. There's a lot of safeties that live in the box. There's a lot of these chess piece players, they're heavier DBs or DBs that can play heavier. But the bottom line is the days of a 260 pound Mike sitting in the middle of the field with, you know, at least two linebackers, you know, a linebacker on each side of them and really heavy run sets and everything. It's just even when the NFL teams that are doing that, they can't look at the college game and find guys that way, the way they used to. And I think it's become, quite frankly, a very difficult position to scout.

And I never used to say that when I started doing this. I look at, because the things that translate, you get caught up. There's guys that have really good instincts, but are they athletic enough at the next level? There's guys that are really good athletes, but that doesn't mean a lot if you have no instincts. And then of course, can you play heavy? And when I say play heavy, I mean, can you take on the contact coming at you? Can you work through traffic? Do you have the balance? And contact coming at you? Can you work through traffic? Do you have the balance? And can you play fast?

Can you play sideline to sideline when it's just a foot race against these really fast quarterbacks and running backs that are running in outside zones? So it's a weird thing where it's not that the linebackers aren't coming pro ready, although a lot of them aren't but when you look at the college games so many of them are playing at 215 to 225 pounds and yeah yes the nfl linebacker has definitely gotten smaller or lighter because of the speed of the game and because of the necessity to run and chase but they're all this is still a grown man's game this is still uh come down downhill punch you in the mouth. Can you take my best kind of game with the contact that they need to take on?

So I think the long story short of it is the college game for the most part is asking them to be one thing quite often, the best linebacker, the best athlete they could find in the middle of the field. And the NFL is asking them to be everything. And I think that's why you see, I don't want to say a miss rate, although there is one, but also an adjustment rate.

I think a Patrick Queen, as a recent example, it feels like a guy that just could not get his feet under him and it's starting to click a little bit. But there's countless examples like that. And we're going to go through a lot of these guys today. And I'm kind of fascinated to see what our top fives for this group look like now compared

to when we do them before the draft. Because I think there's a lot of change that could happen because of the needs to take certain steps. And naturally, just some guys don't. Yeah. And I think the big one, the headlining one, and there's a lot of other, I think, hybrid examples. But the one that everybody goes to is isaiah simmons right because

to this point is i mean failure seems really harsh to say about a guy who's still playing in the nfl but i think everybody looked at isaiah simmons and they went wow look at this chess piece player for brett venables defense and venables one of the most respected defensive minds in all the football college or the NFL, what he is able to do and how he's able to orchestrate defenses right now, certainly as Oklahoma's head coach now. And I think a lot of people looked at Isaiah Simmons and they went, this guy's going to play linebacker at the next level. He's got insane length. He's got insane athleticism, and he's just going to be this perfect new age, modern hybrid linebacker type of a player. And what ended up happening, Connor, is he couldn't play between the tackles.

He didn't have that physicality. So I don't really I don't disagree with anything you said. You're looking for these good linebackers or sorry, these good athletes that are playing at the linebacker position in college. But at the same time, you've got to be able to play between the tackles at the NFL level. And for as much as we want to sit here and focus on coverage, because coverage ability gives you the most bang for your buck, if you will, like those linebackers that are really great in coverage. Those are the ones that obviously impact negatively impact the passing game for the

offense that they're going up against and those are also the guys that get paid really well because those coverage instincts those that athleticism that feel that that eye for takeaways interceptions all that like that's the stuff that gets paid but at the same time you got to have that and you've got to be able to fill the run right and you got to be able to fill the run, right? And you've got to be able to fill the gap. And especially as the game is changing and the boxes are getting lighter at the NFL level, the more linebackers you take off the field, sure, we all think about the better range in coverage

you have to be if you're one of those two linebackers on the field, but also the stronger you've got to be in run defense. You've got to sometimes be able to fill the middle gaps, sometimes the edge gaps, like sometimes both, right? You've got to be able to read and react, and you've got to be strong enough to take on pullers or be able to crash the line of scrimmage or be somebody who's going to loop around defensive tackles

who are crashing in stunt play. So it's almost like, you know, we've talked a lot about running backs and the devaluation of their contracts and what they're getting around the league. I sometimes feel as though linebackers get caught up in that, too, where people go, oh, you know, you just pay the guys who are really good in coverage and the rest of them. I mean, you could, you could find a linebacker every year. Again, the more linebackers you're taking off the field, the more you are going to say, Hey, nickel is the new base. We're playing with two linebackers instead of three. That just means those two linebackers have of three that just means those two linebackers have to be that much more valuable to what you do so that does in turn make it difficult

to sometimes find the guys that you need to who you can normally check the boxes of these guys being athletic and we're going to get to that, I think, throughout our top fives. But it's getting harder and harder to check that athletic box and check the strength box. I watched 10 guys for this exercise. Now, I'm probably going to end up watching another five, six maybe before I get to our big board at the end of the summer. But of the 10 guys that i watched connor one was above the 50th percentile in off-ball linebacker weight one out of 10 that just shows you how crazy this movement is to get these guys who are smaller and faster and quicker at the college level but they've got to be able to answer the questions can they hold up with strength too so it's a really interesting. And I think every year we kind of go through this same thing is, can you find those linebackers that can really do it all?

Yeah. And to find those types is getting harder and harder. It really is. I can almost sit here and make the case. If you found a unicorn that is a three down player that can offer you a little bit of pass rush that can run and cover and hold up against the run. A lot of people go like, Oh, you don't take off ball linebackers in the first round. that can offer you a little bit of pass rush that can run and cover and hold up against the run. A lot of people go like, oh, you don't take off all linebackers in the first round. Well,

I don't necessarily agree with that if you could find that guy, but finding that guy is very hard. And, you know, before I get into number five here, this class has guys that can be that, but obviously this is summer scouting. So there's a longer projection ahead which is a great thing but there's no unicorn in my opinion right now that is that there's just in my opinion a lot of guys that uh you hope can grow into that so you want me to kick things off right now number five because it kind of it kind of goes into the conversation we just had. And number five for me is Cedric Gray, the linebacker out of UNC. Somebody who is 6'2.5", 235 pounds. Now, listed, of course. Listed.

Now, I have him lighter. I have him 230. That, to me, would be high. So that's good if he is. Okay. He's just, yeah, he's arms and legs, right? Like when you watch him play, That, to me, would be high. So that's good if he is. Okay. He's just, yeah, he's arms and legs, right? Like when you watch him play,

it's just a lot of arms and legs flying everywhere. In a good way. It's good that it looks like he has length to me. Oh, true. And he wins with length, but you're right. When he is running, man, those arms are like windmills. They really are. It's awesome. But he's also somebody, too, that, you know, the good with Cedric Gray, in my opinion,

and this is somebody last year that had 82 solo stops, 12 tackles for a loss, two interceptions and eight passes broken up. He was insanely productive for UNC last year. So the fact they have him coming back into the fold as a senior linebacker is, I mean, that's really big news for them because he's a, don't get it mixed up. He's a playmaker at the college level. He's got legit sideline to sideline wheels. He can really get to this. He can win the foot race, the sideline pretty consistently. And it's impressive. I brought up those long arms. Like you said, Trevor, those can, those can aid him in a lot of ways, whether it's trying to keep blocks off him,

but more importantly, can he disrupt passing lanes? You know, when you play with length at the next level, it's just another kind of weapon in your back pocket there. And Gray, to me, just from tape study, looks like he has length. Now, he is the classic case of a guy right now, though, that he needs to add phone booth strength, right? When things get in crowded areas or things get a little rough and tough i mean he's gonna get bounced around a little bit

and he's not you'll see some of these guys he's listed six two and a half and i believe it he looks six two and a half he really does you'll see some of these guys listed more six two six one they might be six feet tall he's a little bit more stretched out where the good news is he's got the long strides. He's got the arm length, but also you can lose the leverage game when you're that light. He really looked 225 to me on tape. He looks like a big, strong safety, but he plays fast and he makes plays. He makes plays in coverage. He makes plays in the backfield.

He could shoot through gaps. This is these are notes that you're going to hear for a lot of different college linebackers. But number five was really brutal for me. I'm going to be honest here with five. There was one guy that I think could have challenged it. I didn't get to through as much of his tape as I wanted to. And you're going to talk a lot about him, which is good. It's good. We check that before the show. So we get to mention

the guys that deserve it. And then the other guy that I watched tons of that I had at number five and I went with the, you know, more premium athlete, Tommy Eichenberg from Ohio State was somebody that I looked at him. I mean, he's as productive as you could possibly be at the college level. He sticks his nose in everything. He's got great instincts. I thought there was times he looked a little tight in the hips. I didn't think he was the same kind of run and chase guy as Gray, but he's highly productive.

And there's a floor there that you really, really like. But this comes down to where the league is going, where speed matters so much. And I thought Gray has all checks, all the boxes in terms of the play speed, the actual speed and the length. But he's got to add some compact mass, I think I would call it, to play in those rough and tough areas on the inside run game. So Cedric Gray at number five, somebody for me that if he shows a little bit more. What am I looking for? for you know a bit of a heavyweight game he doesn't need to be a heavyweight let's just a little bit more than he's somebody that should go in the first three rounds of the draft so it's funny because before we hit record

on this show connor you said to me i wonder how different our lists are going to be because linebacker is often kind of different and there is one way in which lists are going to be because linebacker is often kind of different. And there is one way in which they're going to be different. You said that you don't have Tommy Eichenberg in your top five. I do. So we'll get to him a little bit later. We both have said you're great. Fine. Okay.

I have him at number five. So I'll go over some of my notes. I can't remember any of the, some of the background that you might've given, but just not a lot of background really just talked about the player. So background would be besides the stats. Sure. Senior North Carolina had a chance to come out last year,

opted to return. He was a four-star prospect from Charlotte, North Carolina. So local dude ish actually played wide receiver and linebacker in high school. I read that played basketball for three seasons in high school as well. So dual sport athlete, Pete Carroll, eat your heart out. He has started 25 games already for UNC.

So he's going to have a lot of starts and experience at linebacker once he gets to the NFL level. You mentioned how much he played last year. 985 snaps, almost 1,000 snaps snaps last year which is super impressive so he he has one of the pff stats that i list for all of these guys that i looked up was total missed tackles because obviously his linebacker got to be reliable so he missed 17 total tackles which is high that's a lot of tackles that you miss in a year but you got to think about how much they're playing and also how many tackle attempts they had.

So that was actually only 10% of the missed tackle percentage, which was tied for the lowest mark of the 10 guys that I watched. So you got to keep that in mind there too. Had 17 total pressures as a pass rusher, had a 15.6% pass rush win percentage. They don't ask him to pass rush a ton, but really just as a linebacker kind of crashing that line of scrimmage,

whether it's the A gap, the B gap. He didn't do a ton. I don't think on the edge. So it's not like real edge work, like outside linebacker, three, four edge work, but it's a blitzer, really. Yeah, attack in the pocket,

but still 15.6% pass rush win percentage. You love to see that. He had two interceptions and four forced incompletions you know coverage grades at pff i'll say this especially for linebackers are it's tough to have those numbers be projectable at least like project consistently because so much of what you do in coverage as a linebacker has to do with the rest of the team around you and how the offense is operating that day so coverage grade itself as a raw stat is tough to be consistent forced incompletions and plays on the ball are something that typically

if you were good if you were good at it it typically sustained so that's something that typically if you were good if you were good at it it typically sustained so that's something that you should mark and for forced incompletions somebody might say like oh that's not a lot but remember don't compare them to corners like corners get a lot more forced incompletions because they're out there in their way covering all day yeah and that's how they're stopping it they're supposed to be as close to the receiver as possible a lot of these linebackers they're trying to just keep everything in front of them. So they're not really, it's not a lot of forced incompletions. And if you can force foreign completions on a season, that's a decent number. So you like that? You like that note from him? I agree with you completely. And we actually see this prospect very similarly.

Really great sideline to sideline speed. I think he's a great athlete. Stop and start ability is fantastic. He gives you that speed to get into the backfield to cut in between the blockers to to erase an angle for the runner if you will so the athletic boxes he is definitely checking oh i forgot to read the measurables six foot two which is the 59th percentile and then if he's 230 so you mentioned he might be like 225 if he's 230, so you mentioned he might be like 225. If he's 230, that's just a 14th percentile of all off-ball linebackers. So that's outside linebackers and inside linebackers. He projects more towards that inside linebacker area. I think he's a great attacking player.

He's a see-ball, get-ball kind of guy. I agree with you that I wanted to see more power from him. But I think I know why he's not packed as much of a punch. When I watch him, and there are a couple of guys that we'll get to later in this list, and Tommy Eikenberg is one of them. When they're playing linebacker, they are in a squatted stance. Their butt's down a little bit. Even after the ball is snapped, when they're moving left to right, when they're moving even towards the line of scrimmage, they are kind of down almost in this like pounce mode to where if they want to, they could just put their foot in

the ground. They can call upon their quad strength. They can get up into an offensive lineman that they're probably going to be shorter than, and they can use that leverage to really carry and really bring themselves to power. Even though they weigh about 60, 80 pounds less than the offensive lineman that they're going up against. Gray stands straight up. When that ball gets snapped, he stands straight up. And when he is running towards the line of scrimmage, you also see him. Very upright runner. And when he hits those offensive linemen,

he is hitting them with no leverage. He's meeting them basically at eye level head on. And guess what? The guy who outweighs you by 60, 80 pounds, he's going to beat you. He's going to have more power than you. So as a linebacker, the way that you make up for that is you got to stay low.

You got to stay squatted a little bit. You got to stay in an attack stance, if you you will and that's something that I think is something that Gray can work on although you know when you see the long arms and long limbs from him that also means he's probably a little high-waisted and he is that makes it a little bit more difficult to be flexible at the hips to really sink down but that's something that I think he could work on because you mentioned as he kind of gains weight, I think he's going to need to gain another five, 10 pounds at the NFL level. You keep that speed, but you get a lot more power, especially if you start utilizing that leverage.

So we saw him very similarly. I think this is an athlete that you definitely could take a chance on somewhere in the mid rounds is probably where I project him right now, but excited to see him. I hope he, I hope he kind of gets a lot better in the strength areas because this is a prospect that I think people are going to like because that athletic ability. Right. We both have met five. We see him the same.

I think that what you like is even if he doesn't develop into a starter that you prospect that you project as a starter, he has a lot of special teams ability with that athleticism profile right out of the gate and that's what nfl teams love they'll gladly draft depth at linebacker that can play specials that could be a sub package player and then we'll see him if we can get him up to being a full-time player so really really promising athletic profile with Cedric Gray. All right. So number four for me is a guy that if he finishes draft season as the number one linebacker consensus, I would be not surprised in the slightest, not surprised in the slightest.

And that is Jamon Dumas Johnson from Georgia. Okay. So, I mean, when you look at him 61245 out of all the linebackers i watched he was the one if you just showed me him on tape and you didn't give me any power of the google machine i would tell you that he is by far the heaviest and he is you remember i told you there's one linebacker that's above the 50th percentile weight it's got to be him it is doomish johnson yes yeah i mean he he's a big dude and he's only 6'1 so 245 though that is a lot of mass this is a thick dude i wrote thick powerful frame that

could bounce through traffic i mean he finished so 2022 true sophomore season for the national championship georgia bulldogs he finished as a finalist for the buckus award he had 70 total tackles nine titles for a loss four sacks 26 pressures yep this dude when you look at, you know, all the linebackers trending one way in college football, this is a little bit of that, you know, while they zig, I zag kind of guy. This is kind of your tough MF-er in the trenches. Well, George does that with Stackhouse, right?

I mean, from the inside out, Georgia is all about, we're not losing power. We're just not going to lose. And they have everything. I mean, their third stringers are can be starters most places. So that's why I think Georgia you're right, though, Trevor, it's a really good callback to Stackhouse. Stackhouse is maybe a first round pick in 1999 with his skill set. Right. And this dude is a no brainer first round pick in 1999. But he's so good right now or can be so good that he could play his way into the first round this year. Is he there yet for me? No, there are deficiencies in his game. I think that number one, you brought up I follow the same trajectory as you during this exercise,

missed tackles. He missed 15 in 2002, 22 against the run, just 15 against the run. Yeah, that number is just a little too high for me, especially for somebody this strong, this powerful. For a young player, a lot of the times that can be over aggressive nature. He is a dude. I was pleasantly surprised with this group. How often I saw guys rapping and driving through the waste. I'm really surprised.

This is the one cat that he likes to kind of dip the shoulder. Sometimes he likes to look around and be like, and you know what? When you're the biggest dude all the time, you fall into that because it works a lot of the time, but it's, it's not a habit you want to take with you to the NFL. And I didn't think it was,

it wasn't jarring. Right. Remember when we watched Sewell last summer, we were like, holy shit, man, this guy's going to miss 800 tackles. And it's not that level of like, I'm just dipping my head in my shoulder everywhere, but it's a little bit. And he's a young player. I thought to wrap up the things that I want to see him really take strides with,

I thought he was not as fluid in coverage as he looked in the run game. It was a different player. There's times in coverage where I didn't see the hips as fluid. I didn't see the feet as light. I saw a little bit more thinking rather than doing. Where you look at the run game, I mean, blockers bounce off of him.

He gets to the sideline in a hurry with all that mass. I'm looking at this guy run and I'm just blown away by the way he can run with all that mass of the linebacker position. He does a lot of good things as a blitzer as well because he's relentless. He's strong. He could work downhill. You could blitz him in the gap. You could blitz him off the edge.

And he is so vocal and active with his teammates pre-snap you're a sophomore like big nicobe dean vibes with that where i'm like this dude's a sophomore on a national championship defense and he is yelling he's got everybody lined up it looks like he's calling things out he's reading things He is a little bit of a throwback. He is. But don't let the 6'1", 245, great run stuffer fool you. I thought he was way more athletic than the eye test would tell you. Just pretty snap eye test him standing there.

There was a couple of times where I saw his hustle and his ability to giddy up where I was like, that's a big man moving. And it's got to catch up in the run game. And I think that's I'm betting it's comfort experience and those coverage instincts catching up to the run instincts. And I think if this dude has the season that we think he can have, he'll be a big time prospect if those things catch up. And if they don't, he's still an early down player, a very valuable early down player at the NFL level. So man, Dumas Johnson, I wouldn't say nice surprise, but what I've seen a lot of the seniors, right? You just have, they've been around a while. When you get to the guys that are true juniors, it's exciting because it can go one of two ways.

And I thought this one went in the more positive direction. Well, this is one where we probably disagree on him more than maybe we've disagreed on any prospect to this point in summer scouting. I don't know if that's true. I'm just saying that off the top of my head because it kind of feels like it. But that's not to say like I hated Dumas Johnson. I just have him as linebacker seven. And the reason I do is because a lot of the ways that you saw him athletically

and you were like, man, he's moving for a guy who's 245. I just didn't see him that way. I saw him as a slower player as a more powerful player and i don't disagree with your assessment of him being kind of like that throwback dude but when i i just felt like because of the extra weight he wasn't a rare linebacker prospect who carries the extra weight and yet is also this this crazy athlete i felt like no he's not that i thought the change of direction was middling at best uh i thought he had some decent long speed at times but it's not like he had the opportunity

really to open it up and to show that off the 58.1 coverage grade the 16 missed tackles like and look hands up right Like he's a true sophomore, right? He's starting for the first time. So it's not like this is the last tape we'll ever watch of this guy. He's obviously got another year to get better. And maybe that better anticipation is going to allow him to play even faster. Maybe it was a little bit reserved for him. But from what I saw in 2022, I didn't see the caliber athlete I needed to see to say, okay, this is a top five linebacker, a guy that I would take within the first three rounds. Replaceable always seems like a harsh term, but actually, this goes against what we said

in the first part of the podcast, because I was about to say, I can always find the guys who can be just thumpers in between the line of scrimmage but maybe in 2020 maybe in 2022 I can't maybe college football is just going so light at the linebacker level that these heavier guys actually get a little bit more valuable but I do want to say that I absolutely noted the same thing as you really active really vocal pre-snap communicator I mean he's talking to defensive line. He's talking to the other linebackers. He's turning around and talking to some of the safeties when they're coming down and they're around him.

So the eye for the ball, the eye for the game, if you will, whatever phrase you want to use, he's got that. And that makes me feel like the anticipation and the confidence is going to be there even more for him. Because of that weight, 245, he's fearless going up against offensive linemen. I think that's just a prerequisite at Georgia. Like if you're not afraid to do the dirty work, you ain't going to get on the field.

So I had him as linebacker seven, just because I have bigger question marks about the athleticism, but we do see a lot of his strengths the same. For number four for me, I've got Tyron Hopper from Missouriouri and this is the guy i wanted to watch more of because i feel like it feels like people are pretty high on him i need to watch more him so he is a redshirt senior he was at the university of florida for three years before he transferred over to Missouri. Measures in at 6'2", 232 pounds.

At least that's what they say. You watch him on the field, you'll go, hmm, are you 230? And I don't know if he's 230, because he doesn't really play like a guy who's 230, even though 230 is not a very heavy weight either. I have him, becauseouri lists him at well missouri might have him a little bit different um on a different official slash unofficial height

weight sheet that you and i have um we have him at 232 pounds that's 20th percentile so if you just give if you even give him a shade over 230 that's still only the 20th percentile for off-ball linebackers. But his game's fun, man. And I'll tell you this. I watched three games of him. I got through the first half of the first game, and I went, I don't like this dude. I'm not going to be about it. He's too light.

He is one of those players that we mentioned a new age speed type of linebacker where you're just playing an athlete in the middle and i was like that's why he transferred from florida because they weren't giving him plenty of time because he couldn't do the stuff between the trenches and then the more i watched him i was just like okay okay yep okay and i just like kept noting these positive things for him as i watched a little bit more of him so he's got an intriguing game but a little bit of background from a four-star linebacker again started his career at florida actually played safety in high school before he moved to linebacker during his junior and senior season so that lighter build does make sense when

you know he's got that safety background to him he had 28 total pressures and a 15.4 pass rush win percentage which is something i will get to 16 missed tackles that was 16 of a missed tackle rate which is not great but again i will get into that in a second for forced incompletion so again guys making plays on the ball in coverage and And I have a category or I have a part of my grading scale with linebackers specifically is, do you have an eye for takeaways? Because that is often what separates linebackers from the guys who might be replaceable to the guys who are super valuable.

Do you have a knack for taking away the football? Whether it's you see things in the passing game quickly enough to get interceptions and forced incompletions or are you constantly trying to punch the ball out now at the right times right you don't want to go selling out for you want to make sure you get to tackle but when there are opportunities to are you looking to knock the ball out because defense coordinators are going to love the guys who are able to do that and i think the takeaways are a big deal and i think that hopper has a uh pretty good eye for takeaways actually he is a first and foremost high effort high energy player i mean he is going 100 at all times he's also whether he's 230 225 220 i don't give a

shit whatever he is actually listed at he's fearless this dude is clearly 80 pounds lighter than the offensive lineman that he's going up against and he's going to attack him now he doesn't attack him going straight into the chest this is where this is part of his game that i actually came to love when he attacks the line of scrimmage and they will send him on the line of scrimmage a lot whether it's on the edge whether it's a blitzing up the middle he will often really try to angle himself and prioritize attacking one shoulder of the offensive lineman. And he's even got a nice little dip and rip move to him. Dude,

there's only a lot. Most of what I watched him was him rushing the passer. Cause his, his analytic profile was like pretty jarring for an off ball guy. And I'm like, are we sure this dude shouldn't be an edge? Right. But he's,

he's not, he's just too Right, but he's not going to be an edge. He's too small. He's just too small. But he has those elusive moves where he can eliminate half of the offensive tackle that he's going up against. And when I started to watch this initially, I was like, okay, he doesn't have the strength and he doesn't have the mass to go up against these guys straight into their chest. And basically, kind of like we talked about with Dumas Johnson, do the dirty work, right? When a pulling offensive lineman's coming right at you

and it's your job to take up the offensive lineman for the guys around you to come in and make the tackle, can he do that? Well, if the situation calls for it, he's not afraid to do that. But if that's not what he has to do he will get around these offensive linemen and the more i watched the more i was like okay this isn't really a weakness this is an art like this is actually what he is trying to do and he is doing it extremely successfully so that speed part of his game doesn't just show up going sideline to shot sid, it shows up consistently with him attacking the pocket. So he's a fantastic blitzing player as well.

He's really comfortable covering running backs out of the backfield. And I think, again, the speed definitely goes into that. He's not the biggest. He's not the strongest. He's not the fastest. So he's not going to be this physically imposing player that's easy to say, oh, this guy's going to be the next star at the nfl level i think there's going to be a little bit of a give and take with him but if you are looking for a fast instinctual good blitzing player who has that athletic ability to match up against smaller tight ends and especially running backs coming out of the backfield. This is your guy. And the more that I thought about

those labels of him as a player, the more I came to the conclusion that yes, he's a little bit lighter, but those skillsets, those traits translate. Those have a place at the NFL level. You want these guys to be better in coverage. Well well he gives you the ability to maybe neutralize a really good pass catching back he gives you the ability to send him on a green dog blitz or send him as a looper coming around a defensive tackle whatever it is he's very comfortable with those roles which to me are uh are easily translatable things to the nfl level i i don't know if the strength profile is going to hold him back from being a full-time linebacker. He said himself that he gained 10 to 15 pounds this offseason.

Now, I don't know what that gets him to, but he said that he gained the weight. And I think it was like 10 pounds is what people were talking about. He was getting a little bit bigger. But anyways, Tyron Hopper from Missouri, my linebacker four. The more I watched him, the more I liked. I'm a fan. That's cool to hear because I think something I'm enjoying while we talk, I kind of, I wasn't joking, I was serious, how the position has devolved in certain ways

at the college level. It's also evolved in that these dudes are getting more chances to get after the quarterback and play faster. And it sounds like Hopper is a pinnacle example of that. Yeah, I would say. Right? Lighter, but utilizes speed and utilize some agility that he has to get after the quarterback.

So we will be talking about him a lot on this show. Number three for me, this is to me the most fascinating. Where does Trevor have this guy? Okay. I have seen him all over for people. I've seen him number one. I've seen him not in rankings. And for me, it's very on brand for me.

I land right in the middle with him. Jeremiah Trotter Jr. Is my linebacker three. Okay. In this draft. I think there's a lot to unpack here, right? This is obviously the son of a former,

a notable former NFL player. So he's got the name. Everybody knows that listed six feet tall, 230 pounds. So he's got the name. Everybody knows that. Listed six feet tall, 230 pounds. It's interesting. He's definitely on the shorter end for a linebacker because he looks filled out. Yeah. This is one of those written down 230.

And I'm like, I believe it. They actually shortchange him a couple of pounds here. The first thing I wrote down under pros was he almost looks like someone you'd cast as a linebacker for a movie if i need to yeah sure right yeah that that is what i wrote down i was like if i was casting i was doing some weird football movie because we know how football movies never actually use nfl licensing i would cast this dude for a linebacker role. That's how on the nose it is. Muscles growing on muscle.

I mean, you can even go back and look at like when you watch this dude play in high school, he looks like a D1 college football linebacker. Just like a grown ass man. Yeah, a grown ass man, like the bo scarborough kind of thing going for him as a player tremendous pre-snap vision slash diagnosis of the place yes it is cool okay something that is very cool to me because we just did this with chris jenkins right out of michigan son of chris jenkins it is really cool to me to see guys that have NFL alumni fathers, how freaking smart and taught they are at the college level.

It's one of those things where you kind of have an upper hand, right? Because your father played at the NFL level. So you, in theory if assuming you have a close relationship with him and everything you're gonna get info that not a lot of people on this planet have because to make it to the nfl and actually be a have a long nfl career is so the odds are so remarkably small i think of an Antoine Winfield Jr. When I think of things like this, obviously we talked about Jenkins on the IDL show. Marvin Harrison, obviously.

Marvin Harrison, who is one of the most physically gifted humans you'll see, and then blends it with the craft of the position, the unicorn. It's cool to watch Trotter play because he is so smart for a dude that, yes, he's muscled up and he's tough, but he is a brilliant, brilliant football player. Phil's rush lanes low and with intensity. He is. I don't know if I've seen this fundamentally sound of a tackler at the college level while I've been doing this. I'm sure I have, but at least this summer and maybe going back to last summer, he's a near perfect tackler.

He's extremely under control. He comes to balance. He missed six tackles last year, and I feel like that's even a stretch honestly so he's just he played he's already shorter for a linebacker so leverage is natural to him but he plays with good leverage he's so strong he wraps and drives I mean he's a perfect tackler he's a perfect tackler he really is in opinion. And a destroyer of the screen game, which goes back to point number one, how he sees things pre-snap.

The negatives and why he's linebacker three. Because everybody's sitting there listening and going, how is he not linebacker one after that? How is he not in the Hall of Fame? How is he not in the Hall of Fame? Why is he not Thursday night on NBC? Trevor, I thought, honestly, and maybe this is just me, I thought the sideline speed is wildly average in the outside run game.

I don't know if I built him up to be something that's unfair to him. I was just like, wow, he's not as quick to the corner as I hoped. He's just a step slower than I wanted. And he's got great instincts. So it's not a delay slower than I wanted. And he's got great instincts. So it's not a delay in the eyes or the brain. I just thought it was just his natural. He doesn't have big strides.

He's not that tall. Right. I didn't think he was really fast. And when I say really fast, I mean, we've seen these linebackers run four fours. Yeah. When you say really fast, you mean his teammate?

Well, yeah, we'll get there. Exactly. Maybe that actually kind of poisoned the water for me. Honestly, we'll get there. That could have poisoned the water here. Yeah.

I thought he often tried to work around or spin off blocks rarely through them. And he's pretty good at that. But you got to kind of have that other thing in your back pocket, too. When you're always always i saw a couple linemen that had been climbing to him throughout the game catch on that he wasn't going to run through their chest and they looked way too comfortable knowing he was going to try to be elusive with them and rather going for a tank versus tank battle they started to adjust and just get to their spot and almost square up like a rebound

but facing him because they're like i just can't let him around me and he's not going to try to run through me so i'd this dude is i can't imagine what he does in the weight room i think he could run through more people i think he can um i thought the contact balance and traffic could be better honestly a couple times stumbles falling yeah he, him and Eichenberg were my favorite floor run defenders in this group. I mean, they're going to play in the NFL too. And I think there'll be pretty adequate, honestly, at it. There'll be pretty damn adequate at it. He's just, I don't, the frustrating thing with Trotter is I don't know how much better he can get, I think is where it left me.

He had six and a half sacks. He broke up six passes. He had a pick six. He makes plays. He's an NFL player. He's a top 70 pick today. Yeah. I don't know if he's the athlete that can truly play his way

into the top 35 to 40 selections. I don't know. Yeah. So I have him. I have him linebacker too. So I have one spot above you. But we do see him very much the same. I think, you know, people look at highlight film.

I don't even want to say that people simply look at highlight plays from guys who aren't draft eligible yet and they go oh wait till this guy's drafted and we go into an exercise thinking that this guy is going to be a god now right right that's the case with marvin harrison jr and brock bowers right those are two players where you went okay yeah they're not draft eligible. You actually put them under a microscope and it checks out. But I can't tell you guys out there how often it happens that these players that really break out as freshmen and sophomore,

how very seldom it holds up once we put them under the microscope, if you will. I remember watching Trevor Lawrence thinking, I'm not going to see a single blemish in this guy's scouting profile. And I did. When I put him under the microscope, I went, Okay, Trevor Lawrence sometimes struggles to see the defenses when they're switching things up post-snap.

Sometimes the accuracy isn't what it needs to be when he's throwing over the middle. And so there were things about his game and obviously trevor lawrence is phenomenal quarterback and i had him as an incredibly high rated prospect but you just think these guys are going to be perfect and it just it very rarely holds up like that and i think jeremiah trotter jr not to be too negative on a player that is a really damn good football player, but you watch him and the size is an issue. It's going to show up. He's listed at six feet tall, 230 pounds.

That would be the eighth percentile in height and the 14th percentile in weight. So this is a small off-ball linebacker, especially for a guy that you're going to play in the middle of your defense as an inside linebacker the lack of height and weight shows up when he is trying to stay balanced and he like you said trying to take contact and stay balanced and run through your eyes it shows up there he's not going to be a major difference maker in the pass rush game because he doesn't have the arm length for it he doesn't have the burst he doesn't have the bend for it and the sideline to sideline speed is not the long speed is not as good as the burst is because he stops covering as

much ground it's not like he finds that next year his teammate barrett carter which we're going to get to that dude puts his foot in the ground he goes zero to 60 and then he goes 60 to 90 like he like he keeps it going trotter doesn't do that like his teammate does so a lot of the negatives for jeremiah trotter are to me physical which to your point i see jeremiah trotter jr as a day two pick some likely likely a second round play like i think that this guy is going to be just a really good second round player i don't think he's going to be the athlete to get picked in the first round i hope that he surprises us and goes just kidding i'm incredible as an athlete this upcoming season because it'd be fun as hell to watch him and carter again on the seat in the same linebacker room which by the way bar, Barrett Carter, Jeremiah Trotter, Jr.

Trenton Simpson on the same linebacker room at the same time. It's out of control. There's nuts. Like, even if you want to sit here and like point out the inconsistencies of Trenton Simpson's game, if you said to yourself that Trenton Simpson was LB three in a linebacker room, that would be insane. I came away from this like, what?

Yeah. How? Anyways, I'm totally with you, though. He's so instinctual. He's so smart. He's a good communicator. He makes plays on the ball. He had four forced incompletions.

He had two interceptions. He had an 89.2 coverage grade in 2022. He had 17 total pressures. He had four fumbles as well. He is the kind of guy who sees the game the way you want from the middle of the field. So I have him linebacker too, but we do see him very similarly. This is such a high four-floor player. And the guy who I have at number three, actually, is along those same lines.

But before we get to that player, which if you were paying attention earlier in the podcast, you guys already know who it is if you want to get on a fancy action this season which you're watching conor rogers show so i know that that's the case but you're sick of just managing your roster you know you got the injuries guy gets injured at the beginning of season you know all right well there went my draft best ball on draft kings you get the best part of your team all season long no matter what this year best ballraftKings is bigger and better than ever. $10 million in guaranteed cash prizes up for grabs. For a limited time, you can join DraftKings' largest best ball contest ever

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Join the DraftKings $10 million best ball tournament, and you will get your first entry back in DraftKings dollars. Only on DraftKings with the promo code PFF. If you've got a gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. One per customer, opt-in required with a 10 entry fee bonus is issued as 10 dk dollars agent eligibility restrictions apply void where prohibited see draftkings.com slash promotions for details i don't think you went too much into tommy eikenberg did you no because he's my he's my linebacker three take the fight take it away we can have the eichenberg conversation now for sure red shirt senior for the buckeyes six foot two 238 pounds so the height six foot two 59th percentile nice 238 pounds 38th percentile

so a little bit closer to 50th but still below that 50th percentile there. A little bit of a background for him because he is a redshirt senior, so you say to yourself, okay, why am I betting on this guy? He's about to play his fifth year of college football. Why am I betting on him? Those sweet NIL dollars. Those sweet, sweet NIL bucks. If the last name sounds familiar, Eikenberg's older brother, Liam,

played college football at Notre Dame, currently plays in the NFL for the Miami Dolphins. He was originally committed to play, not Liam, this is now Tommy Eikenberg, originally wanted to play at Boston College, but reopened his recruitment his full senior year, ended up getting a scholarship from Ohio State, chose him over Michigan, Michigan State, Iowa, Kentucky, all the good stuff. When we talk about run defense, Connor,

when we talk about being solid in between the tackles, this guy's got it. 89.3 run defense grade and also 77.2 coverage grade in 2022. He's just a very highly graded player, very efficient player. 15 total pressures. Eh, it was 9.6 pass rush win percentage, but that's not really what he's going to be good for or what you're going to hang your hat on with the scouting report i should say three forced incompletions 14 missed tackles which you go okay 14 seems like a lot but

not really it's only 10 percent missed tackle percentage which again one of the lower missed tackle percentages of any of the players here on this list. Number one thing, very first thing, very easy to recognize with Tommy Eichenberg, extremely smart player. I mean, this dude notices alignments in the pre-snap. He knows how to time the snap count. I mean, there was a run and look, I've never played linebacker at a D1 college level,

so I can only go off of the tape that I see when I'm evaluating these players. But one of the games I watched, I think it was against Iowa. They're running outside zone to Eichenberg's right. Before the ball is even snapped, Eichenberg takes off to the aiming point of where exactly he needs to be to cut in between the offensive lineman and go get the running back or at least blow up the play at the line scrimmage exactly where the run

lane is supposed to open up this dude and he he fully turned his hips and just started sprinting to the right out of nowhere before the ball was even snapped because he does it a lot because he is such a smart player. The floor is so high for this dude. The competitive toughness is through the roof as well. If he's got to go through your chest and he knows that you outweigh him by about 60 pounds, he didn't give a shit. He's going right through your chest.

He can anticipate the snap count, like I said. The active hands when engaging the blockers, I thought, was also such a beautiful, nuanced, technical part of his game that just explains how good of a linebacker this guy is. When offensive linemen are coming at him, whether they're climbing to the second level or whether he is attacking them on the blitz, he does not just go straight into their chest with reckless abandon. His hands are up.

And when the offensive linemen come in to shoot their hands and try to get inside him, he will swipe them away like a pass rusher. He will swipe them away with single arm, with two hands, whatever it is. It's just so fast. It's so quick. It's so instinctual. And it just goes into how smart of a football player he is.

The thing that I wish he had a little bit more was a takeaway mentality. You don't even have to look. I understand. you don't even have to get the interceptions just go for the four like if i if we had a little bit more of a forced fumble rate from you if you were a little bit more into punching the football out that would just go such a long way because then you could bring that to your scouting profile hey i'm a great run defender but i'm also i'm gonna go get the ball for you anytime that i possibly can if a running back's holding it loose at all whatsoever, I'm popping that bad boy out. Would love to see a little bit more

of a takeaway mentality from him. He's not going to be the most athletic linebacker out there, but the floor to me is absolutely NFL caliber. So I really enjoyed Tommy Eikenberg's watch. I understand, you know, you've got, you've got Eric Gray above him, right? You've got aaron gray above him right you've got a couple of better athletes above him you had him i believe would you say six or seven right outside of your top five i i wanted to put him at five and i went with gray instead well i i can understand the

argument because again if you're looking for athletes Eichenberg's probably not going to check those boxes. Just like Liam Eichenberg is another player that I liked coming out of his draft class. And one of the first things that I tell you about his scouting report is Eichenberg's not the most athletic offense attacker that you're going to find. But he's technically sound and he understands the position. It just feels like these two brothers, they get it. They get how to win at the position. I liked Eichenberg when he was coming out I like I like his brother as well for those reasons I'm with you man he's got a pretty nice floor at the next level he and you're higher on him than

me no doubt about that but I mean he's played a lot of football he's been excellent against the run he I had a note in here I need to pull up. I felt like he was the guy I wrote the most for out of players that were not in my top five. And it's just funny. I wrote really good at cheating gaps right before the snap. He understands. I don't know if it's the play clock. Sometimes it's the play clock.

Sometimes he can tell the cadence. It's right before the ball is about to be snapped. He cheats a gap. He will literally jump right into it and then attack. He doesn't cause he, he could time it so perfectly. So, and he,

he really knows how to flow the flow to the ball. He understands where the run's going, how to flow properly with timing. He sticks his nose in every play i mean he can wear you out he can because he's just in every freaking play if you're in the front seven you're just if you're on the offensive line or you're a fullback or a tight end that has to get hands on this guy you're probably tired of him honestly by the third quarter soichenberg, man, he's just a floor guy. He really is. And number two for me could not go further away from that off the wall.

This guy surprised the hell out of me. He really did. And this has just kind of been the summer scouting. Every damn defender on Michigan keeps surprising the hell out of me. Junior Colson. Oh, I didn't watch him. The six foot two. every damn defender on Michigan keeps surprising the hell out of me. Junior Colson. Oh, I didn't watch him. The six foot two.

You got him at two? I got him at two. All right. It reminds me when you had their running back really high in the rankings and I didn't get to watch enough of him. Who, Corum last year? No, not Corum. Donovan Edwards. Donovan Edwards. Yeah. michigan you just got to

watch the whole damn roster at this point you'll find somebody you really will jenkins was a nice surprise last hold on did you see harbaugh said that he's thinking that michigan could break george's record for most players drafted in a single class this upcoming year what is the record 15 like that there i mean their roster is really good but i wouldn't put that on these kids i wouldn't put that on them that's so that's a lot i mean mccarthy it just from the guys that we watched mccarthy edwards quorum zenter maybe he's thinking all 5-0 linemen go. Yeah, I mean, he's got to think that. I'll give him all 5-0 line.

Roman Wilson, right, if he thinks that Roman's going to get drafted. Chris Jenkins, obviously. Oh, without a doubt. Haven't gotten to edge rushers yet. You're mentioning Colson. Colson. We haven't gotten to secondary playersers yet. You're mentioning Colson. Colson. We haven't gotten to secondary players yet. And they always got them.

They always got DBs. Double digits, maybe. 15 would be a lot. They might get to 10. They might get to 10 plus. 15 to a lot. Good quote, though. Thanks, Jim.

Junior Colson, 6'2", 235. Another dude similar to Gray where he could just run for days. He finished 2022 with 101 tackles, six TFLs, two sacks. How about this, Trevor? Born and raised in Haiti until he was nine years old. He was adopted. Yeah. So he was in Haiti until he was nine. He was adopted um yeah so he was in haiti until he was nine he was adopted

he's a pretty gifted athlete in the middle of the field i wrote fast and loose high-end balance flies through gaps and creates chaos in the backfield a couple plays i really liked where zone blockers got to him and his hands jolted them. They were trying to create angles on him and he threw his hands and they were stunned and to let him keep working through the play. I mean, he he's a gifted athlete that he fits your take on a hopper that if he's just so fast and twitched up that if you let him blitz and rush in certain

situations, he's going to give you a lot there. This type of athlete is the type of guy you could you could trust to run and cover. I mean, the only problem I really had with him, I thought he looked lighter than 235. Tell me if you've heard that on this podcast today. I mean, here we go again. And he gets bounced around near the line of scrimmage because of that. When he's not out running or out slipping or having those plays where he won the hand battle first. I this is the guy that plays with his hair on fire. It is. He really is. There's there's a certain thing that rubs off on these these Michigan front seven guys. And this dude, he plays with a little a little spice right a little paprika there it is a little paprika in his game i loved watching him play i really did i thought they let

him fly around he was fearless i thought he played some of his best ball in their biggest games that meant a lot to me too i thought in the college i thought in the college the conference championship in the college football playoff he looked college, the conference championship and the college football playoff, he looked phenomenal. It isn't a true sophomore last year. I think this guy's going to have a monster junior year. I really do. I can't wait to watch Michigan's defense every week with him and Jenkins. They've been two of my favorite players. I've watched this summer because I had no thought that these two would be in

my top five and they ended up no brainers at the top five of their position groups. I got to watch them. I got to like them. You you'll like them a lot it sounds like it from that description this is again this this is a player who it sounds like could have the total package which but once again but also to be fair it doesn't right he's still getting bounced around because he's this lighter college linebacker so it's can you take that step? Would you say, Wade? He's listed 235.

I thought he looked 228, something like that. All right. Tell me if you've heard that. We've got a linebacker, too. We've heard it. I had Trotter, too. I had Jeremiah. I had Trotter, too. So we had the conversation.

Okay, I'm surprised. Nah, I'm not. You're surprised that we have the same guy at number one? I'm not, though, because you are a fellow tape grinder, and if you grind the tape, you just know this dude's a freak. We're going to get into our linebacker one in a second. But before we get to that, I got to remind everybody that it's smooth sack summer.

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Get 20% off of free shipping when you use promo code PFF over at manscaped.com. That is PFF, 20% off, free shipping, promo code PFF, smooth sack summer boys. Let's get on board or get left behind. Linebacker one in this class heading into the season. Kind of teased it a little bit. Barrett Carter, the other Clemson linebacker.

I'm not going to lie to you. Not going to lie to you, Connor. Before this exercise, didn't really know who Barrett Carter was. I thought if there was going to be a Clemson linebacker that I was going to have as linebacker one, it was going to be Jeremiah Trotter Jr. Because we had just gotten over Trenton Simpson coming from Clemson. So I was like, oh, yeah, it was Trenton Simpson. It was Jeremiah Trotter Jr.

Those are the two guys. And as I was watching Jeremiah Trotter, because I watched his tape first, I was like, who the hell is zero? Right. Who the hell is Zero? Right. Who is this guy? And, you know, I come to find out he isn't D-Draft eligible. He is that dude. And that's Barrett Carter, and he is that dude. 6'1", 225 pounds.

This is an interesting case, right? We're going to talk a lot of pros and cons, but at the end of the day, 6'1", 225, that's the 30th percentile in height and just the fifth percentile in weight so i know you're saying trev you just talked about isaiah simmons at the top of the pod why are we doing this again the first thing that i would tell you about barrett carter is that unlike isaiah simmons he is not carter at least is not an athlete who happens to play linebacker, right? He is a linebacker who happens to be a really damn good athlete, five-star recruit. And you see that in the athletic profile, he played wide receiver in youth football, and he thought that he

was going to be a wide receiver at the NFL level, funny enough. But then during his sophomore season of high school, moved over to play linebackerer then he remained a two-way player because they also put him at running back because of his athletic ability um state playoff game i have this just on record 197 yards on the ground on just 17 attempts while having eight tackles, three sacks, and a fumble recovery on defense. Dude's an absolute monster. He did not have a coverage grade, an overall grade, a run defense grade, or a pass rush grade below 77.5. All of those categories were above 77.5. And this is a true sophomore.

It's pretty great. Only 10 missed tackles on the entire season. Five forced incompletions, which you love to see, two interceptions, and 24 total pressure. So that's a little bit of background, but Connor, what did you see in Barrett Carter to have him number one on your list? Man, he's freakish, right? I mean, this is, you've highlighted a lot of it. Former five-star, was an athlete coming out, top 20 player in that class i'll say it right now i think he's gonna get a lot of athleticism and body comp comparisons to what devin white was at lsu i could see that happening to him devin was heavier but let's see he was devin was listed 240 at lsu but i wouldn't i wouldn't be surprised to

see carter be at the combine at 235 easily devin weighed devin was six feet tall 237 pounds at the combine yeah yeah or four two yes silly nasty silly car Carter is twitchy, explosive, a run and chase athlete in the middle of the field, plus play speed with range, very springy. I feel like, what would you say, coils, right? Just on his heels. Just twitched up. He's just bouncing around.

Bouncing around, reading his keys. The downhill speed is just, it's a lethal weapon as a blitzer or rusher there are you'll see this play a lot with him from the all 22 there is a play where he's rushing and he literally jumps over a running back and pass bro literally jumps over the running back and i think he got credit for the sack i think he makes the sack is running backs are supposed to do that to linebackers right they're the ones that are supposed to be hurdle it was it was ridiculous just uno reverse cards the running back he really that's good good way

to put it he also can run through running running backs and pass pro run right through him can legitimately turn and run down the field in coverage with pass catchers. Dude, did you watch the Boston College game? Yes. So you saw the one rep where he's in Tampa 2 as the dropping Mike. I think I remember what you're talking about. He carries this dude like 40 yards down the field. He's just running.

Like it's nothing. The way he can open up his hips and turn and run it's so freakishly natural that you forget you're watching a linebacker I mean this guy okay if the league is going to put the Dalton Kincaids and Kyle Pitts and Darren Wallers and obviously the greats like Kelsey and Goddard, if they're going to flex them off the line of scrimmage, what is your counter to that? You got to find the guys from Mars and this is the guy from Mars. So I will bet the house on traits like this any day of the week. This guy is just, I mean, he's got the poncho on and traits are just dripping off of him.

All of them. Speed, explosiveness, short area, quicks, acceleration. I think the only thing I wrote down right now that I'm going to be watching this year to grow, he's very see-ball, get- ball right now rather than instincts oh but he wrote the same thing down man he but he's so good at c-ball get ball he understands how to find his lanes and take angles that he might never even be a high-end instinctual player and it might not even matter it might not matter but if he finds that you're talking all pro potential all

pro so we loved him obviously we loved him that is that is you know i i echo a lot of his strengths man i think that uh he flips his hips incredibly well he's one of the very few linebackers in this class that actually has legit twitch to him like can can put his foot in the ground and all of a sudden he's going top speed in two seconds um the change direction ability is fantastic he's so fluid in his movements um like we mentioned he could drop back in coverage as far as a tampa two drop all the way into the middle of the field is like a third safety but i also think he has that strength ability to be to hold up between the tackles uh he's not afraid to stick his nose in between offensive line but not afraid to do the dirty work and that's a really important box

to check i the only real two negatives that i have and not to say that he's a perfect prospect but you got to remember that he was a true sophomore so a lot of this stuff's going to get better anyways hopefully naturally i i agree the number one thing is that he reacts more than he anticipates right now yeah and for a player with his athletic ability if you get him to and you know what i think is really going to help him the fact that i uh jeremiah trotter jr standing right next to him right you're like this guy i don't know if i don't know how much these guys are friends i don't know how much they work together off the field and in the film room or whatever. But if Barrett Carter can just take what Jeremiah Trotter Jr. does already from an anticipation level, I mean, Carter's going to be a top 20 draft pick.

Yep. Yes. Easily. And when the other note that I have here is that he's not really, he doesn't really have a takeaway mentality right now. Now it makes sense because you're a true sophomore. You're just trying to keep your head above water. You're trying to make it so you deserve to be a starter at a D one level,

especially at a program like Clemson that's playing every single Saturday means the world to them. Cause they're trying to compete for national championship, right? You're just trying to not screw up. So it makes sense that you're not taking these crazy risks with takeaways, especially since you just don't have a lot of snaps under your belt. But if he can get to the point where he's anticipating where the ball is going, I mean, we're talking three, four interceptions easily within reach for him,

five to six forced incompletions, which would be fantastic numbers. And I'd love to see a couple of forced fumbles too, because I know that he's got the ability to do it. So takeaways and anticipation. Those are the two things I'm looking to see for Carter. But right now, I think this is a first round player. And he's the first round linebacker right now. Right now, I would probably tell you that this is somebody

who's athleticism alone. You're going to bet on at the back end of the first round and another improvement and step in the right direction. And you're talking about a top 20 player. So I, like I said, can't believe we're talking about a linebacker like this and it's not Jeremiah charter junior.

I have the two right now I've got to watch Colson. And like I said, there's a, there's a couple more linebackers that I need to watch, but as of right now, I'm going into summer scouting with Clemson, having the top two draft eligible linebackers in the entire class which is nuts nuts it was wild to walk out after watching that defense and i i so i watched trotter and i'm like he's gonna be in my top five i i wasn't disappointed but i wasn't blown away i was just like okay he's

he's a nice player he's probably gonna be i was like he's probably gonna be number two or three for me depending how this goes but someone's gonna pop and then i watched barrett carter right after and i couldn't believe it i couldn't believe it i was it just... There are certain backgrounds that excite you, right? Athlete, top 20 of his class, five-star. You mentioned the freakish rushing numbers, Trevor. When you start to think of things, see things like that, you have your types, and you're like, okay, this dude, if he put this kind of production out,

let's see what it looks like. When you play fast, playing fast in this dude, if he put this kind of production out, let's see what it looks like. And when you play fast, playing fast in this position is what matters at the next level right now. And he plays fast. And there's so much that you have to think about as a linebacker in order to play fast, right? Going back to the conversation we had at the beginning of the podcast, you're constantly checking with the defensive line.

You're looking at your, I mean, good Lord, man. Play action rate going through the roof and RPO concepts becoming more popular than ever. It's insane. Dude, it's an impossible job to play linebacker. Like I'm watching a lot of these reps and it's like, okay, I'm watching these linebackers fall for play action, but i'm sitting here telling

myself okay well what else were they gonna do like what else are they supposed to do this is their assignment you fit the run first then you figure it out after that's why play action is so important even if you're not establishing the run uh so anyways we're not getting into that whole debate but that's just to say to find a linebacker that even has the potential to do it all is somebody that you need to take note of and somebody that deserves to be drafted high and paid high to get back to linebacker value and our kind of our thoughts on that so anyways those are our top fives i'll go over mine connor you go over yours and let's shout out a couple of players who maybe just didn't make the list.

Cedric Gray, I have at number five, the linebacker, the senior linebacker from UNC. I got Tyron Hopper, the redshirt senior from Missouri, number four. Tommy Eichenberg, the redshirt senior from Ohio State, at number three. Jeremiah Trotter Jr., the junior linebacker from Clemson at two.

And then Barrett Carter, the junior from Clemson, at number one. Number five for me, same as you, Cedric Gray, UNC. Number four, Jermon Dumas Johnson, the linebacker out of Georgia. Number three, Jeremiah Trotter Jr. out of Clemson. Number two, maybe the surprise here, Michigan's junior, Colson. Number one, the man that wears zero, Barrett Carter, also out of Clemson. Anybody you want to give a shout out to i got um i got

two that i think i could give a shout out to that okay some people might take a look they might have on their watch lists um and these are just things i could talk about danny stutzman is one of them from oklahoma okay really interesting build here with him he He is a true junior. 6'4", 240 pounds. So this is 93rd percentile and then right in the middle at the 50th percentile. You love the size. I mean, the size is really cool. You look at him and you go, oh, okay, are we watching another Drew Sanders here? We're not.

Not yet. He's got to gain weight. Stutzman has to gain weight. You watch him and he is just thin and that shows up man I mean he loses the power battle against a lot of different offensive linemen um he's got a lot of missed tackles that have to do with his lack of strength so he's just got to get a lot stronger and he's also he's not nearly as twitched up as uh as Sanders was Sanders former edge rusher so he had that burst ability and Sanders just isn't quite that kind of a

player. So he is somebody that's intriguing because of his size, but honestly, like this dude's got to play like two 55, two 60. If you ask me, like he's got to get bigger and you might be looking more towards the rotational, like Sam linebacker type of guy when you're trying to get a little bit more meat on the field with those three linebacker sets. So that's kind of my thoughts on Stutzman. And then the other one that I wanted to mention, Omar Spates, who is a redshirt senior linebacker, played at Oregon State for four years.

Then he moved over to LSU. This is his first year at LSU. I know a lot of people like him, and I think they like the athleticism of him. Speed, quickness, that's totally his game. He's a sideline-to-sideline guy. I think he's a smooth mover as well. But there's a reason. He's 6'1". They got him listed at 235 pounds. I think he's 230 max. So we're talking below the 30th percentile in both height and weight.

He's pretty easily swallowed up by pulling offensive linemen. Doesn't have that punch at contact contact even when he's crashing. And you always look to see if a guy's strengths are NFL caliber. I think Spates wins with speed right now in college. I don't know if it's fast enough to win as a speed backer at the NFL level. Like Tyron Hopper is a speed linebacker, but I think the level of speed in which he operates can still stand out at the next level where you go, okay, you're a little bit lighter, but you clearly win with speed. It's an area where you can make a difference on

the field. I don't know if Spates is that fast. So instead it's just kind of a smaller linebacker who's a little bit quicker. Are you going to get swallowed up in the powerful game that is box play in the NFL? So those are my two thoughts on those guys who I feel like a lot of people are going to bring up. Two for me, Curtis Jacobs from Penn State. Curious, you know, to see what he could do this year. Penn State, obviously notorious for getting really, really good linebacker play.

I think he's somebody that a lot of people have eyes on as well. And then one, gotta give some love to a smaller school guy. How about Jason Henderson from Old Dominion? I want to give Henderson a shout out because he led all of college football in tackles last year with 186. Good lord!

The man is tired. I mean, good God. What are they just like not running into the ball and they're trying to get him to break the record or what? He was pretty damn close. What is the NCAA record? I think he was seven away. He was close.

Really, really close. NCAA record most tackles in a single season. But yeah, the man's exhausted. Wait, how many did you say he had uh i had him with hold on one second espn 186 i had him with 186 i think that's what the school did it looks like espn has him with 179 okay so i'm looking at sports reference right now they have hend Henderson at 186. This is the second most tackles in a single season in NCAA history. Number one.

Who has the record? Luke Keighley. Yes. I hope nobody ever breaks that. And it's 191, so he was close. He was five away. Now, you know what's even better than that? The fact that before last year,

the second most tackles in a single season, Lou Keekly. Insanity. That's insane. Lou Keekly. Dude. What an animal. 181 tackles and 183 tackles in back-to-back seasons

and i mean wait well hold on wait his true freshman season he also had a top 20 tackle mount 185 or 158 sorry this is insane i didn't realize this i remember one of those years this guy's machine machine complete machine why is one of the best linebackers ever i was gonna say at least since this century opened but never with henderson it's not too often you see a linebacker out of pennsylvania make it away from happy Valley. So that's a cool story. Yeah. So he's killing it for old dominion. Yeah. You, you heard it from Connor, Jason Henderson, the next Lou Keekly.

So there you go. I said it, put it on a quote card, roast my ass. Let's hear what you guys have to say about the linebacker rankings. There's a lot of different flavors here. Obviously there's plenty of players that we didn't get to on this podcast. I'm sure you guys know from watching college football, whether it's your team, whether you're just a fan, whether you are an aspiring

NFL draft analyst yourself, we would love to hear from you. Let us know what you think of our list and fire off some guys that we didn't think about that we would love to hear your initial scouting reports on as well. Best way to do that,

youtube.com backslash at NFL Stock Exchange. That is the YouTube channel for the show. While you're there, like the video, smash subscribe on the channel. We got over 11,000 people subscribed to the channel. Damn! You guys are incredible. Incredible, incredible, incredible. We love you so much. Thank you for letting us crush that

11K threshold before... Dude, I would... Can we do 12K before the season starts? I got to. Listen, we got to. I mean, edge we do, can we do 12K before the season starts? I got to. Listen, we got to. I mean, edge rushers will pop, you know, it'll pop off. I know it'll get us there.

What's going to get us there? Our mock draft, our preseason mock draft. Oh, hell yeah, baby. Cheat code. Hell yeah. Cheat code. Hell yeah. Let's, let's space it out and just do one episode is every five picks so we can milk it as hard as possible

you don't miss it we're not gonna do that no we're not we're never gonna be that big a seller we're not gonna do that but obviously if you guys are not organized enough to be so that's true we are obviously gonna get to the mock draft uh sometime at the end of august once we get done with all the positions we'll give you our big board episodes as well as we kind of get through all the guys and kind of culminate, Hey, these were our rankings of this position, but how do we see this position lining up against the others as we head into the season? If you are audio only, and you want to get in on the show,

hit us up on Twitter. Sorry. No, no, no. Head us up on X. Oh, geez. I don't even know. I lose, you know, many times a day I lose track of the tab. I'm like, man, I closed Twitter again. I never do do that and then it's x by the way not to state your soul not to state the obvious but boy does it look like a porn tab on desktop now x with a like a red it's not great it's it's a terrible look it's a terrible look it's not I mean. Don't pull up X at your parents' house. Are we back on threads? I don't know.

I don't know. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. Oh, man. Maybe we are. Welcome back, Trey. But hit us up on X. Hit us up on Instagram. Hit us up on threads, I guess.

Right. At Tampa Bay Trey, at Connor J. Rogers. Yeah, we would love to hear from absolutely everybody. So, like we said, pivoted a little bit here. Went with the linebacker episode. Edge rusher is coming next week. We're going to give you as many edge rushers as we could possibly

watch. We hope it's going to be kind of like that wide receiver episode where we're watching at least 15 of these guys because the edge rush position is deep. We know that y'all got takes on it and we know that every single fan base in the nfl needs more edge rushers no matter who you are so you're always looking for those guys or the first round player second third you want as much edge depth as possible we're going to find you that talent so you guys know who to watch heading into the college football season i'm trevor sycamore that is connor rogers thank you guys so much for watching we will see you next time on the nfl stock exchange podcast you