NFL Stock Exchange: An NFL Draft Podcast - 262. Ranking 2025 NFL Draft Defensive Tackles (Summer Scouting)

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Trevor Sikkema and Connor Rogers continue their Summer Scouting Series and coverage of the 2025 NFL Draft by ranking the draft-eligible defensive tackles/interior defensive linemen for the 2025 NFL Draft. The two bring you each of their top 8s with strengths, weaknesses, player comps and projections

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It's awesome. Sign up now at youtube.com slash BS, device and content restrictions apply. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday ticket for out-of-market games excludes digital-only games. Welcome to the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. In this episode, we're getting back to the summer scouting series, switching sides to the defensive side of the football. We're talking interior defensive alignment. It's defensive tackles. It's, you know, defensive ends that are in 3-4 schemes. You know,

all those guys that play in between the tackles, if you will. The big fellas. The guys that are getting after the passer. The guys that are clogging the run. We love it. We love to talk about these dudes because they're the centerpiece of the defense. We've got some really good players to talk about, including somebody who could go number one overall from this position.

Hyped to talk about it. I'm Trevor Sikama. With me, as always, is Connor Rogers. Let's ring the bell. Welcome to the opening bell of the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. I'm Trevor Sikama. That is Connor Rogers. Joining you for another edition of Summer Scouting.

We're finally flipping over to the defense side of the football, getting to interior defensive linemen. Could call it defensive tackles, but I don't know on my list. I've got a couple of guys. It's like, hey, you know, they're kind of like four, three defensive ends. And those aren't true edge players. It's more of interior players. So that's why we just call them interior defensive linemen.

We're going to give you our top eights. You can go rapid fire eight through six, and then get a little bit more in depth into our top fives going into the season, telling you what we like about these guys, how we think they can get better. Connor, how you doing, my friend? I'm great, man. Listen, we had a little break. We did this EA CFB ranking. So summer scouting had a one week pause and we're back. And I'll tell you, it was nice to have the extra time for this group. We were talking off air. You know, you watched 15 players. I watched 14 players.

This was a really, really deep class. And it felt like there's plenty more that we'll talk about throughout the season that we won't get to today. So the defensive line, it's good to see that it's shaping up to be a strength this year. Yeah, because I think interior D-line, you know, we've had some thin classes over the years at times. We've had some strong edge classes, but the interior, which that gray area, I mean, you got,

the thing when you're watching the D-line, you watch these kids play all the way from a nine to a true nose. Yeah. It is really, the usage is hard to figure out with the body types and everything, but I think we'll get down to it today pretty precisely. You you know it's interesting to kind of have a little bit of a discussion about this position before we get into it you and I were just chatting before we hit

record you know Texas A&M is one of those schools that kind of just recruits a lot of high star athlete players along the defensive line and they sort of just want to get them in the program and then they'll kind of figure it out later you know whether it's Walter Nolan or Shamar Turner or Nick Scowerton or like whoever like they're just they're recruiting these high profile players and then just sort of figuring out along the defensive line I would say that today's age of football and we talk about on the offensive side of the ball you know these like slot receivers and tight ends who are also slot receivers and guys who could be inside and out playing on the outside of the numbers or in between the numbers. There's just so much versatility. It feels like with skill position on the offensive side of the

ball, it does feel like maybe not equally as versatile, but like you mentioned, there's some of these guys who are okay, your weight and your measurables, clearly you're an edge, but all of a sudden the team's kicking you into three technique, your nose all the time, because you're just trying to get these crazy advantages. So this feels like a more fluid time along the defensive line than we've ever had. I feel like it used to be much more structured,

and now you're playing odd fronts and even fronts in the same game, and you're playing edge, you're playing inside. So it makes it a little bit tougher, but it does sort of give you a lot of creativity of how you scout these guys and where you can see them play i agree with you what we do i think is very different in a sense for this position group than what an nfl team would do right i mean there are players that are more than completely draftable players that might not be on your board if they don't fit your scheme on the defensive line. Sure.

While we look at this thing and we just evaluate it as a whole based on talent. While we'll talk about players today, Trevor, that are somewhere 340 pounds doing one job, and then you'll talk about another player that's barely 290 doing a totally different job in the same position group. Right. It feels funky, but that's the nature of not only the athleticism infusion

at this position group from recruiting over the years, but how different and varied and multiple fronts are across not only the NFL, but now college football. I think at the top of this defensive tackle class, sorry, interior defensive line, I'm breaking my own rules. I think that we have, in my opinion, at least one player who could go number one overall in this upcoming draft. I agree with you. I know it's the same player.

I wonder if it's the same player, because if you ask people out there right now, it feels like it could be a two man race for who's going to be ideal one. And so I'm sitting here trying to tease it a little bit to make sure people listen to the end of the episode, telling you that one of these guys could go number one overall. I'm curious. I got faith that we're going to have the same guy. I got faith in you, my friend,

that you see it the right way that you're going to be on the right side of history here, but we'll see when we get to the end of the podcast here all right let's hear from you first let's go eight through six give me your three guys a little bit of a tree tops and then i think we'll probably ask some questions as we kind of uh get through those three guys so eight for me was the godfather dante corleone from cincinnati who yeah a true joy to watch, had a blood clot scare this offseason. Sounds like he's, you know, on the mend, getting right. Can't wait to see him back out there on the field.

He's got two full years of tape. You know, if you've watched for the draft over the years, if you watch Jawan Briggs, like you've seen Corleone play next to him on this defensive line, I'm sure we'll have a conversation about him so seven for me was Demonte Capehart from Clemson he's probably the most interesting guy in my top eight in terms of high variance and on the spectrum of where he could be drafted high or low and then um number six for me was Howard Cross III from Notre Dame, who is just this fire hydrant defensive lineman.

And, you know, truly, truly a guy that, you know, plays with his hair on fire, can shoot gaps, can wreak havoc. Not your most typical, like, wow, that looks the part on defensive line, but just wrecks the game and it doesn't matter. So there was a little something I liked about all of these guys so let's uh let's talk about the clemson guy first because the other two one of them's in my top five the other one is number eight so i'll kick it off as i go through eight through six but i did not watch the clemson dude so i would love to hear a little bit of background what you of him, how you got to him being number seven on your rankings. So K-PAR is about six, four and a half, 320 pounds. He is a well-built human. Like

he just looks the absolute part of an NFL defensive tackle. He was a top 50 recruit in the 2019 class at IMG Academy. Now that, that feels like a long time ago. So he's, you know, he's been at the college level for a bit here. Massive frame, massive presence right in the middle of the defensive line. He knows how to drive his big body into blockers to clog the run. Some overwhelming flashes of power where he could just dump the center right on his ass and kind of own the pocket. He keeps his pad down pad level low and really drives his legs against the run. It's impressive for a guy that big. He understands the leverage game and how to disrupt the run

and redirect the run or make plays in the backfield. And just once again, when you watch his ability to drive blockers backwards, it consistently redirects running backs into bad running lanes so it might not be the guy that gets the tackle in the stat sheet but he's a guy that was the first to really ruin the play now when you jump into you know i called him really high variance he's only played 246 snaps on defense over the last two seasons that's not a lot he like he's a true like he's a rotational player for them at that size i think the pass rush plan can be a little predictable based on that straight line power but there's also times where there's just nothing that opposition could

do about it that's how he sort of is he sort of just winning with like a bull rush pretty consistently yeah there's a there's a couple players that i watched where yes i noted that where it's like your pass rush plan is basically just oh yeah bull rush or bull rush variation something like that yeah i felt like that i for him he was one of those guys and like you said there's a few of them it felt like the pass rush was just straight line power bull rush i think he generates power from his hips a little better than a lot of guys where he could do it more often but yeah not a diverse pass rush plan he had a weapons charge but it was dismissed before the spring ball this season before spring

ball this season um so if you want to read up on that story you can it's kind of a convoluted story but it was dismissed he's back with the team i'm just curious where grades are going to be on him because it's the the classic case of someone that he's not playing 80 of your snaps 70 of your snaps or we haven't seen that from him yet but he's an early down force like an absolute early down force so you know i put him on this list at seven where if that snap count goes up and he stays to you know as this kind of disruptor he could jump up a couple spots but if if that snap count stays the same and he's this kind of one-dimensional powerhouse then he's probably more of a you know third round kind of player than than the ceiling he can grow into sounds like uh

right now high floor low ceiling player does that is that kind of what it sounds like for him yeah i would say so i don't you know he's he's uh it's red shirt senior then going into this season yes if you don't have a ton of pass rush moves by your redshirt senior year, not that you can't develop them, but it's a lot easier to say, hey, this true junior going into their junior year, we can expect them to get a little bit better as a pass rusher as opposed to a redshirt senior guy getting better as a pass rusher from what we have seen. So, yeah, I mean, it obviously sounds like a guy

who could really be good defending the run, but might not be a ton more. If I was a defensive coordinator, I'd love to have him as an early down player. I mean, I thought he was flat out. He flat out dominated in my opinion when I watched him against the run and it was against good teams at times too. That's what really stood out to me. It was just that. But once again, when you just look at, at you know missed a lot of time in 2022 and then last year 163 snaps for the defense that's you know it's a it's a low count and there's some guys that didn't make my top eight that they have they

have a similar problem as well so i have howard cross who is your six, right? So I have him at eight. And this is one of two Notre Dame players that I have here because I have his teammate, Riley Mills. I have him at seven. Okay. And then I have Bear Alexander from USC at number six. So that is my eight, seven, six. I really want you to talk about Bear.

Before we get there, had mills at 10 just to hang up so i just wanted to clarify that uh mills i had behind cross he was at 10 for me in a good in a good class but well let's well then let's let's just talk about the notre dame guys can we because we can we can knock it out in the air right before we uh right before we hit the top fives because uh I'll talk about Court Leon very shortly after um so who do you want to talk about first Riley or do you want to talk about cross first I'll just tell you my concerns with Mills why he was at 10 for me sure go ahead because they're like there are things about Mills I mean he's six five and a half he's over 300 pounds looks the part i thought the pass rushing in 2023 was very good motor motor stays hot yeah swipes his hands push pull knows how to use his length he's gotta get more rugged against the run he's got like it's it's crazy to me at his size and build.

He just gets wiped out by double teams and he's just, he's not, he's not a plus as a run defender. So, so you know what a big issue is for me and background information. Cause I feel like we're, we're running through fast cause we want to talk about all these guys, but Riley Mills, he's a, he's a red shirt senior at Notre Dame. Where's number 99. Connor mentioned he's six foot five, right 300 pounds like sometimes he's been listed 295 sometimes he's a little over 300 so he's right around 300 pounds i'm at 306 right now which is

a good number for him nice i like that that i like that um he was a four-star defensive and when he was coming into notre dame but they've kind of moved him more as like an interior player. He plays more of like three techs a lot of times. How across the play knows, which is funny, very funny, but I will, I want to, we'll have the power cross discussion.

Cause it's a fascinating one, but he was also a track and field guy in high school. A lot of these guys were shot, putting discus, a lot of felt like I wrote that down a lot with a lot of these interior defensive linemen, which is becoming a common theme as we see these guys kind of come through. So 2023, you mentioned, to me, it was a good year for him.

Pass rush grade, 82.4. Pass rush grade on true passing sets, which, you know, that's no play action, no screens. The ball's not coming out of your hands immediately. You know, like an actual, you know, drop back pass. He's got to scan the field a little bit. G gives you time to actually rush the passer um 82.0 so still pretty high 82 is a really solid pass rushing grade passers win percentage 15.1 that's 72nd percentile for interior defensive lineman run defense grade like you mentioned a little bit lower 73.3 it's not terrible run stop percentage 88.5 which is 80th percentile.

But there are those times when I agree with you, and I kind of wanted to give a background before I sort of echoed what you said. He's 6'5", which you like that a lot about him. I actually think he projects best to an odd front defensive end. I feel like that's where he could be used best. You know, that four eye technique, getting the most out of the length, being able to take up space, but the, but it's sort of hard to project him to a ton of success in an odd front, because when you're playing in an odd front,

a lot of times you were a primary job of yours can be to take up multiple blocks. And he's got the strength, I think, to handle multiple blocks. But Connor, this is a defensive lineman who, he pops right up, like right away. He gives up pad leverage way too quick. And to me, even in the plays where he was asked to hold the line of scrimmage and run defense, he just popped straight up and it made it way easier for little combo blocks and even guards to just get underneath his pads and move him a lot easier than he should have

because you watch his play style and, I mean, he's got violent, strong hands. I mean, he's playing all out at all times, but a big issue for me with him is he's got to play way more control. Now, we'll say this all the time. I think coaches would say it too. You'd much rather coach a guy down if he's too all out than you would try to get something out of somebody that you can't see. But Mills, the hands are wide. They're not where they need to be.

He's trying to fight things off and stay clean, but it's, it's, it's teetering on the line of all out effort and just erratic chaos. And I think too many times it goes into a detriment of him being out of control and chaotic. And I think the pad level goes into that. He's just got to take a deep breath before the snap and just remember two things, hands inside, pad level low. And if he does that, I think you've got a really nice player on your hand. Somebody who could play, I mean, he could play nose for

you. You probably don't want him doing it too much, but he could play two eye. He could play four eye. He could play some three technique for you, and he can even play as a five-tech defensive end because he's got that length to be able to do so if you want to be more powerful on the line of scrimmage when you're going up against the offensive tackle. So I like the length. I like what he brings to the table. He reminded me a little bit of Logan Hall from the Tampa Bay Bears.

Interesting. I see that. He's not the pass rusher that logan hall was but both of these guys were very uniquely tall around 290 300 pounds and they gave you all out effort and i think that that that's that style was similar and look you know you look at what hall has kind of been since he's coming to the league 33 him getting picked at 33 was clearly a bit rich. So I'm not sitting here saying that Riley Mills is going to be a early second round pick, but you know, the, the, the, the body style and the way he wants to win, it reminded me sort of of how Logan Hall wants to win. So that's kind of how I saw that player. Yeah. There's legit pass rush upside with Riley. I mean, there really,

really is. I actually, when I started this exercise, cause I watched the Notre Dame guys together. So I watched them pretty early. I thought he'd be a lot higher than 10 for me from the flashes I saw, but there was more consistency in this class that really caught my eye that had him fall all the way back to 10. But yeah, I mean, there's's legit legit pass rush skills there where like you said trevor if he kind of finds how to play a little bit more in control against the run then you'd have a pretty well-rounded player there were times when i was watching cross because i watched cross first and i'd see mills do something crazy and i'm like who is this jj watt looking

dude right yeah who is big 99 blowing this play up. And you know, you put them under the microscope and you see your, this strength weaknesses, but there were definitely flashes of him giving you some NFL ability. So what about Howard cross? So I got to cross at eight and I got mills at seven. You said you had mills at 10 and cross at six.

Talk to me about Howard cross. Give me a little background. Tell me, tell me about the, the height and the weight. Cause we. Talk to me about Howard Cross. Give me a little background. Tell me about the height and the weight because we obviously got to talk about it here, but we'll have the Howard Cross conversation here. He's definitely a little bit of an outlier there. 6'1 and an eighth, 288. So he's, yeah, I mean, he's thick for his height,

but he's definitely a different built kind of interior D-line because, sure, there are D-tackles that play at that size, thick for his height but he's definitely a different built kind of interior d-line because sure there are d-tackles that play at that size but like you said trevor they play him at nose tackle plenty like true nose tackle you'll see him at three tech you'll see him at nose tackle uh so it is very funny when you watch him alongside riley mills who is just you know almost built in a lab for a defensive tackle I would say it would cross year four breakout for Notre Dame it was his first year as a full-time starter in 2023 his dad played tight end 13 years for the Giants yeah it was on one of the Giants

Super Bowl winning teams so there are bloodlines here. You know, obviously, Cross got even more size or more girth than his dad. He's a savvy interior rusher. Yes. Savvy is the best way I can write it. You watch just the arsenal of ways to attack with his hands. And this is someone that had a 13.3% pass rush win rate. And that number, when you play a lot of nose tackle, it's pretty impressive.

He's the low man in the trenches, which should not be a surprise at his height. And he knows how to shoot gaps with quickness off the ball. There's just so many times that he slips through the A gap. And I don't know if it's because of how low, I think it's a combination of everything. He rushes low. He's very quick off the snap. and he's pretty agile for his build I mean when you talk about the weaknesses he is

undersized for a true defensive tackle for a true interior defensive line player there's going to be times like I saw with Riley in this defense that double teams just wipe him out of the play and I think the difference is especially when I hear you talking about your projections for a guy like Riley, Cross is succeeding as a nose tackle. So what makes Cross awesome as a nose tackle is that he's too slippery and quick where he shoots that A-gap all the time,

and it's very hard for guards and centers to adjust to. What makes Cross a liability at nose tackle is can i expect him to hold the point of attack and hold the line of scrimmage against the run where you're gonna be double teamed a lot that's playing those tackle right so i really like the player a lot i think in today's nfl with so many teams rotating their defensive linemen and having you know attack mindset kind of interior players and hold the fort kind of interior players. I think cross can be an impact NFL player. That's why I had him at

six, but it's going to be an interesting transition. If somebody expects him to be this 80% of the snaps force at nose tackle, where I'd like to see him kick around both nose at three tech. And I'd like to see him get his rush opportunities as a nose but i'd like to see him in a base defense a little bit more at three tech you know we have a metric that we love to talk about here at pff um obviously not perfect but it's something that helps quantify the value that you have regardless of your position it's wins above average right i mean it's it's very similar to if you um are a big baseball guy, obviously that metric is a big part of how you evaluate baseball players, regardless of position.

Howard Cross's wins above average metric for just last year, 2023, 0.28. That was the second highest wins above average number that we had of the guys that we watched this week, or at least of the 15 guys that I watched this week. The only player who was higher is, well, we'll get to him near the end of the show of course when i look at the numbers for howard cross i mean i'm with you six foot one and right around you know playing weights probably like 285 for him i look at the grades man well first of all he's playing over 600 snaps 610 snaps in 2023 that's a good amount

for a great call out you know yeah he's not just this small guy that they're bringing in like every now and then he's not he's not he's in it he's in it 100 he is he's in the bunker looking at riley mills like yes shit here we go his past his pass rush grade 89.8 pass rush grade on true pass sets 85.6 pass rush win rate was 90th percentile but then connor you get to run defense grade 83.8 right for a guy who's 285 well because he's disruptive and the way that he does it is he's so smart he's so smart he knows where the ball is going he's got great instinct for where the ball is going he's got great instincts he's so smart. He's so smart. He knows where the ball is going. He's got great instinct for where the ball is going. He's got great instincts. He's got great eyes for where the ball is going. His hands are up and inside. He is, anybody who's listening to this podcast, who listened to the interior offensive line episode that we've talked about, he is the defensive line version of what

Parker Brailsford is, right? where you watch him and you go there's just no way like there's no way he could succeed in the NFL and then you just watch him continue to win in a lot of ways on tape and it's hard to deny a player who puts out really good tape like that I don't know how high Howard Cross is going to get drafted because at the end of the day six foot one 285 pounds is six foot one 285 pounds and there's basically you know aaron donald that's who everybody likes to bring up and it's basically i mean it's well and can't see sort of in that same mold where he gives you a chance to go in the first round but i even thought can't see was more violent and explosive than cross was not definitely more explosive for sure.

Like Cancy's one-on-one in that area. Right, right. And so like Cancy makes up for it. But I have this at the back end of my scout and my preseason scouting summary for him. Ultimately, he won't be for everyone due to his size. But it is just tough to write off players with his level of football IQ. And to me, that is just how I see Howard Cross. It's just hard to not want this guy on your football team. Whether you see him as a full-time starter at three technique, or whether you see

him as just a rotational depth piece, you will love having him on your team. He will rarely be out of place. And really the only things that are going to get in the way of him having success are his physical limitations. And I even think that his physical limitations are good enough to certainly draft, draft in the mid rounds and make him a depth player. So I do like Howard Cross. The player that I thought for him was Makai Wingo, because it's just this like super quick player who can win immediately,

who is going to struggle on the interior against power and double teams just because of his size. And people forget Wingo got hurt last year, so we didn't get to see a lot of him. But Wingo was also an Ironman defensive lineman the year before. They played him a crap ton at Lsu yeah because of how quickly he could diagnose and get into the backfield so um i know there's probably people out there who will like cross more than wingo i was a pretty big wingo guy last year so it's easy for me to sort of see the body type see where they succeed and be like yeah i like both of these players a lot so that was the first guy that kind of came to mind with him. Yeah. And you look at the fronts.

I mean, there are fronts in the NFL that would, they don't, they don't care about that size and we'll rotate you in as a pass rusher. You think of the Niners, the Eagles, the jets, the Texans come to mind.

I'm sure there's a couple more as well. It's Texans. Yeah. I mean, Oh, we might, we might have, we might have our first tower cross you are you are houston

houston texan he's we might have it we might have it right there i liked him a lot by the way uh won a state championship as a wrestler in high school i just had to note that because we love former high school wrestlers when we talk about the trend i feel like and this is definitely just i feel like the high school wrestling champs all have the same aesthetic on the field they all look they all kind of look the same do they i don't know if i've noticed that yeah they don't take it forward they don't wear a lot of stuff in general like cross wears gloves but most of the time that's i know he had a brace on his arm for like one point but he doesn't wear a brace just to wear a brace like it's usually just gloves with the with the you know the very very small jersey with the sleeves

rolled up i feel like zach frazier kind of looked the same way wharfs kind of looked the same way. Worfs kind of looked the same way. Just all business. Yeah, they don't have time for all of that. They don't have time for all of that. They're here to beat the shit out of you. Yes, yes. They're here to throw you out of this small circle. I don't need extra pads.

They're here to pin your shoulders on the ground. Dominate. Okay, so. Bear Alexander. Yeah, Bear Alexander from USC. He is six for me. There's just a lot that goes into his evaluation. So Alexander, he's at USC now. He's a true junior going into this year.

Six foot three, 300, or sorry, six foot three, 313 pounds. So right around the 50th percentile in height, 70th percentile when it comes to weight. So he's built really well for an interior defensive lineman, especially for the three-technique position that he plays a lot. So he was a four-star defensive lineman from Terrell, Texas. He ended up going to IMG for his final year of high school football, but he's from the state of Texas.

Won a state championship as a junior in 2020, when he was in Texas, ended up transferring to IMG, played a senior year there. I ended up choosing Georgia out of high school over Alabama, Florida, Texas A&M, uh, as well as other schools. So he played in 12 games for Georgia as a true freshman. And then immediately after that transferred to USCc in 2023 started 12 of 13 games last year for usc and then there were all sorts of rumors about like him being in the portal again he didn't get in the portal he's still at usc but um there were all sorts of rumors of of that

this is i'm going to talk about that a little bit later this is like trying new cities like maybe yeah maybe it's just like, maybe he just wants to be well-traveled. I don't know. Given the benefit of the doubt, I guess. Yeah, I'll jump back in the portal and. Life's all about experiences, you know? Let's go see what Penn State has.

Let's check out the pizza near Rutgers. Oh man. Just goes from Georgia to USC to Rutgers, baby. Yeah, that would be the way back. Quite the get for Coach Shiano. Yeah. So, okay, so some stats for him from last season. 660 snaps last year.

71.2 pass rush grade. 71.5 pass rush grade on true pass sets. That's a lot of snaps for a big fella. Truly, yeah. Pass rush win percentage, 9.7. 30th percentile run defense grade, 63.9. Run stop percentage, 18.3. That was 78th percentile.

I'm just going to say it. The guy's unbelievably talented. Insanely talented. I know I'm probably just absolutely shattering logic there with somebody who committed to Georgiaorgia and is now at usc but hit bear alexander's best plays line up against basically anybody in this defensive line class now we don't see it nearly as much the consistency and i would say the floor of this player is lower than it is for the guys that are a lot higher than him but like strengths i have

written for him lightning quick first step generates speed to power very easily he's built basically perfectly for a three tech defensive tackle the hands are always working to get unblocked and move forward he's already shown a good array of pass rush moves we've seen an arm over we've seen rip moves you see the speed to power you see the bull rush you see it just a classic, just like club, a two-handed swipe. He'll have a spin counter for you. I wrote all these things down as I was watching. He can stack and shed very quickly when he gets his hands up inside. I mean, I'm basically listing off somebody who I feel like is a very high ceiling pass rusher.

And I really do believe that. Now, the weaknesses, he's got a bad habit of losing the ball in the backfield like sometimes the ball is just you know they'll run by him and he's second late and be like whoa okay hold on i thought the quarterback had it so better instincts for where the balls are as a run defender the the reason why that run defense grade is is 63.9 is as low as it is because his run defense strategy is let me get in the backfield not really like let me hold the point of attack let me keep my linebackers free he's trying to get in the backfield and he's trying to make a play which hey maybe his coach you're telling him to

do that but it sells the guys behind you out to dry sometimes and we've seen that with him so the consistency runs a little hot and cold with him i mentioned it. He sort of struggles to hold the point of attack against really powerful offensive linemen, interior offensive linemen. But again, I wonder if that's like a stylistic thing. I don't think he lacks strength. Maybe he does, but I think it's just the fact that he's just trying to get off the block

and get into the backfield, which again, good and bad thing. There's a time and place for it. Sometimes he's just too over reliant on that as his primary method of holding the line of scrimmage i'll tell you i watched i watched the nevada game of him first and i'm like this dude might be gerald mccoy like like like no joke like shades of what we saw from Gerald McCoy was number three overall pick. Like, Hey, this dude was really, really good. I watched the

Oregon game two games later and Jackson powers. Johnson is eating his lunch. Like he, I mean, he is just stealing this dude's soul, especially in the first quarter bear kind of figured it out. And he realized that he couldn't just run through or run by jackson powers johnson he actually had to kind of play him straight up but that first quarter against jpj was bad i mean like it just the the upper body strength of powers johnson was overwhelming for him and he just was not ready for it and that's of course an nfl interior offensive lineman. And so he did not play well against that test there. And so you just, you have to note that ultimately as well, you know, I, I'm, I'm not going to

like say this as if it's like a hundred percent fact, but have not heard the best things of how he exited Georgia and some of what he has been at USC. And if there is anything to that, you know, if there's anything to him not being the best in the locker room or him being a headache for programs like that stuff is going to trickle upwards to the NFL. And it's that stuff is obviously going to get out. And so that is something that we will have to kind of monitor with him because it's already sort of, again, I'm going to say rumors because I've never met the young man. Right. And I've never, you know, I haven't talked to anybody specifically who has interacted with him. This is just sort of what we hear from reporters and people who cover both

teams. And so it's worth noting. And we on this podcast, obviously we're not going to try to just like throw anything out there that we hear, but this has been sort of a consistent theme that we heard from him when he was leaving Georgia. And they've been so a little bit at USC.

So incredibly talented football player. We'll be very interested to see if he continues to take that next step and continues to look dominant as a pass rusher this upcoming season because if you can get in the backfield like he has shown the flashes to do NFL teams will put up with a lot whether there is a lot to put up with or not I'm just saying they will put up with a lot if you can get into the backfield the way that I've seen him get into the backfield so that's my thoughts on uh on bear and how he ended up number six for me right and just the you know level of prestige as a recruit that he had uh you get it you get a longer rope it feels like you get a longer rope, it feels like. You get that longer leash. For sure. Obviously, he was at Georgia, USC. Now, with the big-time programs, it's talent.

You're harping on talent a lot, and I think that's really, really important. We'll see how he can mature and launch that talent into being a big-time prospect. He landed at six for you, Trevor? He did indeed. Which really speaks to just how talented you thought he was. Yes. With the, with the, with the concerns. It's basically very hard to like quit him unless I hear concrete, right?

Like unless we get into the draft season and it's, you know, January, February, and we're hearing things from sources or people that we trust. And it's like concrete until then. He's a really talented player and it's hard to give up on that. All right, I'm going to jump into number five. Let's do it. Number five for me is a classic in between being an edge and a D-line. I had him as a D-line.

He's 290 pounds right now. That's Texas A&M's Shamar Turner. Okay, so I have Turnerer as an edge he plays both i don't know i don't know what he is but i had him i don't either i'm gonna they don't either when you're probably gonna talk about him next week probably we had this problem with the tackling interior episode so it's not the first time. That's okay. What are you? Oh, man.

Texas A&M playing this amoeba defense. Yeah. What are these players? It's screwing up the show. Develop the young men. Texas A&M is single-handedly trying to destroy the show from within. Shamar Turner, senior, 6'3", about 290. He does play, like, legitimately edge all the way to nose tackle.

And it's not that, oh, he had three nose tackle snaps or seven edge snaps. Legitimately, a lot of the time, just plays all over the place. Because as Trevor said, A&M has these athletes and they're just putting them all up and down the line of scrimmage he's a two-year starter he finished last year with 10 and a half TFLs six sacks so the production's there he is just so unique in the way he moves for his size Trevor that's why I like him in this group I I think as an edge player, it's not that he's not exciting because he has some really nice wins off the edge. Like I wrote, when they let him rush off the edge,

he can dip and turn the corner. He can get under the outside shoulder of tackles and turn his body into the pocket. It's not full freakish bend, but at his size, it's good enough to collapse into the pocket that way and the way he moves the change of direction with him is just an absolute nightmare for offensive linemen trying to kind of mirror with him the the footwork the way he can kind of turn his upper body to swivel into the pocket he's quick off the ball

so he's already kind of dictating the rep and when you're dictating the rep and then you are making a move before the offensive lineman is comfortable in his pass set I mean that's a recipe for success a translatable skill I didn't see a lot of weaknesses in his game to be honest with you the number one question I have that I'm trying to figure out is exactly where his best place to play at the NFL level is. Is it consistently as an end? Do you go to a defense that early downs, you might be playing more on the end, but hey, we do a little bit more of a NASCAR package,

and we're going to kick you into three-tech or nose tackle because you're quick enough to, you're just so quick. You beat guards and centers that way, where we place a premium on you because you can play up and down the line of scrimmage with your athleticism. But he is an extremely, extremely disruptive player. And the fact that he's disruptive from wherever they put him, it's not just one place that you need to kind of tailor that for him to have success. That's why I liked him so much. I would say he was the biggest surprise on the list. The next four guys, I was like, yeah, I expected them to be really good.

But Shamar Turner, I was like, okay, let's see what we have here. Because like you, I didn't know if I should watch him now. I didn't know if I should watch. So I got to look at him. And I really just kept watching him because I liked him so much yeah so very very disruptive i i think you you said this about a previous player maybe bear alexander you know losing players in the backfield i think was a common problem for a lot of these talented pass rushers in this group yeah that pops up at times and it's once again we can't

harp on enough like this defense it allows guys to be a little bit more aggressive at times and play on an island but very very skilled up as a pass rusher from wherever you want to have him put his hand in hand in the dirt yeah i mean even if he's you know we we've said this before on this this show it's it's sort of a phrase that that I like to talk about when I talk about defensive linemen. We talk about versatility a lot, and being versatile is a good thing, but there's a difference between being versatile and being homeless, right? If you don't have a home base, when I draft you at the NFL level, sometimes that could derail careers before they even begin.

If you don't have a home base, if you don't have a place where if I'm trying you at five technique, or if I'm trying you at three technique, or I'm trying you at nose or four eyes as a three, four defensive end, whatever it is. If I don't have a, okay, we're going to try this, but if it doesn't work, we can always lean back on this. You are at least good enough here at this position. It's a dangerous game when you start to play that. Yeah, he's versatile. He can play everywhere. Okay, but can he play anything?

One play at an NFL level because that to me is really important. So you're talking about Turner. The teams that come to mind teams like Buffalo Baltimore um New Orleans I would say as well Philadelphia you mentioned Seattle now with Mike McDonald like these are teams that could have a really deep pass rush rotation you mentioned the Jets too I think the Jets are one of them as well that you would take this guy because you've got such a solidified defensive line in front of you and you'll probably have some sort of like plan for them where you can play them in a variety of

different spots and you don't have to lean too much on them when it comes to value they're just more of a depth piece think of john franklin myers who was a draft pick by the rams he was a waiver claim by the jets he got traded to denver this offseason he's on a massive contract he plays at the same size as turner and does the same exact thing where you'll play him and you'll kick him in on on passing downs like that's that's the mold i know there's there's other guys in the league doing that that's the one that resonates obviously with me right um yeah so all right so five for me is t.j sanderson south carolina so i did not we talked off the air this is a player i did not watch i watched his teammate the tonka truck yeah tonka hemiway yeah yeah is he in your top five he's not okay okay he's yeah he's he's lower for me uh i think i

think tonka is pound for pound really damn strong. He's like 288. And I think that he's like a run stopping, like somebody who could actually take on double teams like pretty damn well. But he's outside of my top 10, but that's the role that I saw for him. His teammate, however, TJ Sanders.

I might be the biggest TJ Sanders fan in the world at this point. I feel like not a lot of people are talking about him. He was a redshirt sophomore last year. And after I watched the Georgia game where South Carolina played Georgia, I think it was week three or four of the season. I was like, who's 90? Let's start getting some information here. Are you draft eligible? Redshirt sophomore, he was draft eligible. Now I figured he wasn't going to leave because unless he had an absolute monster season, I didn't think South Carolina was going to have two monster of a season as the year went on. I figured that he would be back for another year. He is, but I

scouted him a little bit last year and I felt like I was high on him last year and so this year sort of the same thing for me he's six foot five he's 295 pounds so he's got the height he's got the length he's a little shy of 300 pounds but I think that actually gives us a pretty good versatility so former three-star defensive end okay six foot five you figure all right it makes sense that he was a defensive end recruit they have since kicked him inside He played both defensive line and tight end when he was in high school. Also played basketball. Averaged a double-double in high school.

So my guy's got true multi-sport abilities. And he was the 6A player of the year in his state in South Carolina. So redshirted his first year, only played in two games. Played in 12 games the year after that, but it was in sparingly. And then he started seven games last season. So the PFF grades for him, nothing super stands out to me. He's more of like a traits, a developmental, a ceiling type of a guy.

You look at the pass rush grades, regular pass rush grade, 72.4, true pass sets, 74.4, pass rush win percentage, just 7.2. It's only 15th percentile, so that obviously could be better. Run defense grade, 96. Sorry, 1696. 96? Yeah, he's the Incredible Hulk, actually. I was hiding that.

I was burying the lead. Run defense grade, 69.6. Run stopping percentage, 10.6%. That, however, is 94th percentile, I will just say. I really like his potential. This is somebody who I'm betting on in a big way, the flashes of what they have the ability to do. Strengths for me, you know, again, remember,

he's got the longer frame. He's a little bit lighter, so he's a little bit more explosive. He's got quick hands to both engage and get off blocks. I think he did a really bit lighter so he's a little bit more explosive he's got quick hands uh to both engage and get off blocks i think he did a really good job getting off blocks quickly when offensive lineman got hands on him really plus arm length for an interior player gives guards and centers pretty fits um this is something that i noted really competitive player on third down and again like that's that is a x factor element of who they are as a player that i will go okay i'm gonna highlight this i'm gonna put this in bold because if you show up on third down there's a reason why i watch rivalry games oh yeah there's a reason why when we when

we have all of the games to watch because thankfully you, you know, the PFF gods set it up to where we have ultimate on every single game for all of these guys. But we're not going to watch every game in the season the previous year. I will gravitate towards rivalry games and games in which a championship is on the line. Division championship, college football playoff, something. What are you like when you play the team that you hate, that you've had all year to work up towards the end of the season? And what do you like when you're playing for a championship? And I think who you are on

third down, especially as a defensive lineman, that is in the same family of how you play. So the fact that I really noticed how competitive of a player he was on third down, that stood out to me. He's got a pretty explosive first step, although I think his base is wider than it needs to be. He explodes laterally very quickly because his base is really wide. But I would almost rather him sort of take his feet in, be a little bit more narrow, have a little bit more linear explosion, being able to get up the field a little bit faster, because I think I see it there.

He is somebody who doesn't really hold up well against doubles right now, so he's more of just a three-technique pass rusher type of a player. When it comes to wrapping guys up in the backfield, he's letting them out of his hands a little bit too often. I want to see that a little bit more for him. He also gives up his leverage way too easily. He's six foot five, so it's sort of natural for him to do that. But if he can keep the pad level down, I think he gets low in his stance. He just pops up very quickly because he wants to use his hands. He wants to get to a club rip. He wants to get to an arm over. He wants to really get into the

backfield, but sometimes he sacrifices leverage way sooner than he needs to. But this is just, it's a potential type of player here, Connor, and I'm excited for you to finally watch him because I want to know if I'm just crazy. Like if I'm just, if I'm on an island, and if I am on an island, I'm still okay with it, but I just feel like not enough people are talking about Sanders. I see more people talking about Hemingway because he is the older player there on that defensive line maybe it's just

because he was only a redshirt sophomore last year but TJ Sanders is somebody to watch for me because I think he's got a pretty high ceiling in what he does I'm excited honestly it's crazy I watched his teammate and didn't get eyes on him obviously an underclassman that it sounds like could have a massive breakout year from those traits that he has that you're describing, like more traits than Hemingway. Yes, I would say that, yes. Yeah, that's why he's a lot higher on the list for me. Okay, so that was five for you.

A guy I did not watch. And five for me. You didn't watch Turner yet. You're going to turner as an edge correct that's kind of interesting you're gonna have a player in your uh top five who i did not have in my top eight is that right yeah my top four you mean yes yeah is that right i think it's this player i think it's the player that you're going to name next. Kenneth Grant. Oh, no, it's not Kenneth.

You have a player in your top three who's not in my top eight. Wow. Whoa. Well, then who do you have? That's what I'm more curious about. People are just going to have to stick around and find out. Add. No, I'm just kidding. Like 30 minutes of ads yeah right

you're just just just hammering the skip button just begging to get on with it now i have kenneth grant at four okay who is very good i also have kenneth grant in my uh top five oh i figured i would have been really i'm really surprised anyway but but especially grant. It's, it's funny with grant because you almost feel like he doesn't get the attention he deserves, although he's in our top four. So he is on this show. Cause we do speak up for the people because of the defense he plays in

where it's just superstar everywhere. Yeah. But Kenneth grant is phenomenal. Yes, he is. If I have this right,3339 63339 is also what i have you're not you're not supposed to move like this at 339 no that i that i do know is basic physics last year and this is a former three-star recruit that played guard in high

school he also played guard he played d-line as well but yeah also played guard in high school he also played guard he played d-line as well but yeah also played guard in high school also shot put in track just want to shout out that's a very good note that is a very good note i mean man when you jump into the strengths this is true nose tackle shade nose size and experience brings the beef in the middle of the defensive line yeah baby how did this group have well they won a national title so that's the answer i guess that explains a lot how did the national champions have chris jenkins mason graham and kenneth grant and kenneth grant yeah i mean it is sick. It's absolutely stupid. Like, Junior Coulson, who I loved more than anyone,

had these guys in front of him where he was like, okay, cool, I could just be a heat-seeking missile at all times. I'm looking at, I'm trying to look up Michigan's 2021 depth chart. No, no, no, no. It's got to be 2022 to just see if it has, like, the wildest group of defensive linemen you've ever seen. It becomes the Washington, the old Washington coaching staff. Yeah. Where it's like McVay, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McDaniel, Matt LaFleur on and on it goes.

It becomes the version of that for a college defensive front. Yeah, Michigan had Mozzie Smith, Mason Graham, Chris Jenkins, Kenneth Grant, Cam Good, Braden McGregor. Abe Hutchinson had to be on that team. I think he just got drafted. Oh, that, okay, so he just got... Oh, you went with 22 instead of 21, you said. Yeah, because if I go back to 21, I don't get Mason Grant.

Yeah, that's the trade. An important piece of the puzzle. He might help a little bit. That is crazy. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so he is so, so good at holding the point of attack against double teams. Kenneth Grant.

Phenomenal, honestly. Like like he uses all 339 pounds to go okay you will not move the line of scrimmage against us because i'm here but he's got a sneaky swim move like it's not okay let's just go through some of the guys i watched i'm watching michael phelps tape clock you're right there you go kenneth grant is in the lab watching michael phelps comp michael phelps if he played nose tackle he also clearly eats like him have you ever seen what michael phelps eats yeah it's like it's like 10 000 calories he goes to the diner and they he like sits at the table for six to eight people, and it's all food for him. And it doesn't matter.

It all wipes off in one session. It's like 10,000 calories a day, and 6,000 calories of it is pancakes. Oh, yeah. He truly can eat whatever the hell he wants. I've got to start swimming. I've tried more this summer. It's not working for me like it did for Michael. You know, I know i gotta get into

being a uh record breaker breaking olympian swimmer an all-time olympian i gotta you know i gotta get into that for the united states i just gotta commit i gotta get into it phelps phelps could truly eat like 40 pancakes a pizza spaghetti yeah he's giving he's giving chestnut a run for his money and so can kenneth Grant. Kenneth Grant is the next Michael Phelps, a great American. He... The clip of him chasing down Katron Allen

on the state? Holy shit! Harbaugh said, I think Harbaugh after the game said, that might be the best play I've ever seen in my life. It's up there for me. It doesn't make sense. It defies all logic.

Allen is not slow. The Penn State running back. Yeah. Kenneth Grant. We might have this Kenneth Grant moment at the combine where we were all watching. Who are some big guys that our jaws just kind of dropped when they ran? Mekhi Becton ran really well for his size. Yeah,

he did actually. He ran really well for his size where you were like, that's not supposed to happen. Kenneth Grant might. Oh, by the way, just for speed. Cause we're talking about it.

So we are starting to track things. Um, athletic wise more at PFF. So we have an athletic score that guys get. He's chipped all of the players. Yeah. The evil empire of PFF has chipped every college athlete in the country, college football player.

Yeah, except it's in their body though. They don't know it. Yeah, it's like the mark of the beast. They have no idea. So go on. So his athletic score last year, 6'3", 339 pounds. Now, obviously, like, weight goes into it a little bit here.

85.2. Connor, he had eight runs last year where he hit more than 15 miles an hour. It's just ridiculous. There's no... Man, it's 340. This happening on planet Earth is not... It's not supposed to.

Everybody does this bullshit where they're like, well, if the aliens show up, like, who's the best team you feel? You have to win a game against them. Just throw Kenneth Grant out there. They'll go home. They go home. They go, nope, we're good. We've seen enough.

We have water and air where we live. Oh, you got to win a game against the aliens. Who's the team you feel oh i'm so afraid you know the the the comp that i should have written down for him is the the purple monster from the purple monster from space jam yeah that's really what i should it's actually like spot on yeah spot on yeah he's awesome i think know, I wrote down one little weakness note for him. Is that I think the pad level, it got a little high against the run at times. There's times where he's just he's such a big guy.

Yeah, that there's times you're like, OK, just keep those pads down. We're kind of can have him drift a little out of plays, but. He's everything you want from a nose tackle right in the middle of your defense. So I have him too. Yeah, I get it. People listen to me like, how do you have him at four? Yeah, he's two for me. I agree with so much of what you said, man.

I think that he is such a uniquely built nose tackle. And I think, I believe that he fills more of the traditional nose tackle role than you would want for the other player that we're going to mention here in a couple of minutes, who most people are going to have as either one or two in this class. But when I look at Kenneth Grant, he is, I think Kenneth Grant is the right amount of finesse. I think he is still a bully in the middle.

I think he is a true nose type of zero or one technique type of player. He could play three technique for you if you want to get creative for it. Yes, we can. But especially if you want to line him up as a three technique type of a player, you can crash him into the guard on a stunt. I saw this multiple times. They're letting Mason Graham loop around behind him, and Mason Graham's sort of starting at the one,

and Kenneth Grant's starting at the three, and he's crashing inside, and Graham's kind of looping around he's getting into the backfield pretty free and it's because of the explosiveness that Grant has at 340 pounds now the unique part about him is is it his build is a little strange you know he's he's he's a little slender in like the calves and the ankles but it doesn't really show up that much when it comes to balance issues for him. So it's not that big of a deal for me. Sure.

Yeah. Tilting for him all over again for the combine. Kenneth calf implants. You will go top eight. It's not as good as our steroid steroids calf implants that's the ranking of how you move up when it comes to combine something to think about um yeah i just think again he's the right amount of finesse because i think we get carried away as a society uh with nose tackles that we like being finesse players we like it when nose tackles have

a little bit of extra pass rush juice but i feel as though over the last handful of years there has sometimes been these interior defensive linemen who they are such finesse players when they're they're supposed to be still run defenders at heart. And Grant, to me, is, again, the perfect blend of, he's still a massive interior nose tackle. He just happens to give you extra pass rush juice. He just happens to also give you the right amount of finesse that you would want. His priorities aren't messed up, if you will. They're not flipped in a bad way.

So the comp that I came up with for Kenneth Grant, BJ Raji, because I felt like Raji was the same way when he was playing prime Raji for the Packers. He was their nose tackle guy who could play in the middle of that defense, but Raji would also give you the karate hands and get off the block and get into the backfield, and all of a sudden he's in the quarterback's lap immediately. So that was the first guy and not the first guy, but that was the guy I settled on when I thought about what grant does well as a blend of power and speed. So I have him at number two. That just reminded me that Boston college team that Raji was on,

I feel like was an absolute unit in NCAA football, the team as a whole. Oh yeah. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I use that team quite a bit. BJ Raji, wow. I see the body type for sure.

A little throwback for you. That is a nice, nice throwback. Okay, so. Okay. Four for me. Well, you had Granite too, so who's four? Four is Dante Corleone, the Godfather. Okay. So. I got any in those tackles yeah so six foot one 320 pounds you talked about corleone a little bit the reason why

we didn't dive too deep into him is because um you know i knew that we would talk about him here corleone's awesome man a former three-star recruit from c, Ohio. Goes to Cincinnati. Didn't play as well last year. Passers grade, 79.3. Passers grade on true pass set, 68.7. Run defense grades were still really strong, 80.4. Run stop percentage, 8.479th percentile. But if you go back to last year, I'm kind of cherry-picking.

I'm cheating a little bit here. If you go back to 2022, 93.8 overall defensive grade. He was one of the highest graded defensive players in the country. 94.7 run defense grade alone in 2022. This dude can absolutely hold the point of attack. Some strengths for him. Really impressive speed with his hands and good placement as well to win reps consistently and quickly great natural leverage at six foot one 320 pounds he's got that like fire hydrant build but he's got those low pads he's consistently the low man winning

that way powerful lower body for great leg drive once he wins with leverage he's got that quick first step to also be able to shoot gaps so he's not just a run stuffer in the middle he can give you good um good uh pass rush penetration there as well good eyes and run defense he knows where the ball is going now some weaknesses for him the height hints at the arm like being below average and i think that that's going to be true right he's not going to beat anybody with a long arm move or anything like that and when you have shorter arms it's not just the fact that you can't long arm somebody it also makes it more difficult to get off blocks when you talk about club ripping somebody really being able to rip them and get all the way around the offensive lineman's outside shoulder when you have shorter arms you are less disruptive when you are making that move it is easier to latch onto you it's

easier to hold onto you and then you can offensive lineman can sort of ride that momentum a little bit easier when you don't have those long arms to be able to clear the offensive lineman's arms. So because of that, it's a little bit tougher for him to disengage when he's going to that move. He needs a little bit more pass rush moves and counters beyond just the power rush that he has. Sometimes he'll give you a nice little bull rush. Sometimes he'll bull rush the first step, gives you a little push-pull,

a little stack and shed and throwing the guy to the side. I love when he can time that up really well, but I think he needs a little bit more when it comes to those finesse moves and trying to stay a little bit cleaner. But again, the lack of arm length sort of goes into the limitation of how well he'd be able to do that. I think that he's a great three, four nose tackle. He is somebody who again, gives you a little bit of finesse for a player who has really high run defense scores over the last couple of years. I just didn't think that he did it to the level that Grant does, and that's why I've got Corleone at number four

and Grant at number two. But they are similar players in that you like what they bring in run defense, and you like the plus ability that they can give you as a pass rusher. I just think that Grant's a little bit more limited, or sorry, Corleone is a little bit more limited in that regard. But you mentioned it, he had a little bit of a scare with blood clots earlier this summer.

The report is that he's been back at practice. It looks like he's going to be able to play this year. We really hope that for him, not just because, you know, selfishly, we would love to see him play as draft evaluators, but of course, just personally with his health overall to live a long and happy life with that. So Corleone coming in at number four for me. Corleone, I mean, obviously the best name in this group,

the godfather. The godfather. It's so perfect. I totally agree with you. I thought 2022, he was a nightmare. And there was a little bit of a step back of last year's film, not a drastic one the only real thing that dropped him a little bit for me Trevor besides the you brought up the physical limitations at times is I was really disappointed in his game against Zach Frazier

in West Virginia oh I didn't watch that I jumped to it after it was the last game I watched. It was the last game I watched to him, and he just couldn't get anything going, in my opinion, where I was like, okay, I'm not writing you off. I still have Corleone in my top eight. Yeah, but it's a big test. But it was a game where I wanted to see a little something, and I didn't think there was a lot there.

But, I mean, the two years of legit production that nose tackle mass he's another guy so hard to move off the line of scrimmage he just holds the point of attack there's wrecking ball power there um so I totally understand why you really really like him three for me I think this is who's not going to be in your top eight. Tyleek Williams. Yeah. Wow. He's nine for me.

Okay. I'll jump right into it. Please. Ohio State fans. They're going to be, they're going to be, they're going to be on your ass because you didn't, you didn't have a,

Oh, who am I forgetting? Donovan Jackson is one of your top guards. Hold on. I had a book. Hold hold on i had a book at three i had henderson at five i quenched on at one i i hit the best i yeah no you're right yeah i was i was so i look i was lower on jackson going into last year i'm a little bit higher on him now. So he's getting better. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

They can't be mad at me. I had Josh Simmons at like four. This is true. This is true. They can't be mad at you. That's the rules. Not allowed to. Tyreek Williams, who Trevor despises.

He's his new tyree wilson uh ohio state senior six two and a half 325 i would i would say i have him and kenneth grant tied right here like four and three i thought the same if i was doing grades they would have the same exact grade and they're both in the first round for me with ty Ty Lee, he's appeared in 38 games of this team over the last three years. Former four-star recruit out of Virginia. He plays with just really good strength. He carries a ton of mass top to bottom, head to toe, and he plays with excellent strength. His hands arrive with force that I thought looked a lot different than other players. Like there's a jolt when his hands arrive on blockers. And when it's time to grind it out

against the run, this guy understands how to stack and shed. He understands how to fight into the, into the backfield. He, you know, chases plays from the backside. He wears out blockers throughout the course of a game, and he's a classic, doesn't get to fill the stat sheet. He constantly funnels the run somewhere else. I will say. I thought he was a better. I thought he was a more polished run defender in terms of disruption than Grant. I thought Grant showed the better pass rush upside.

And that's what I'm fascinated to watch, how these guys distinguish themselves for me throughout the year. Tyleek had a 7.8% pass rush win rate last year. And I think there's much needed context for his role. I didn't see him in this Ohio State defense being asked to just pin his ears back and raise hell all the time.

But I still think that's a little low, even for that context. I think it was just it was a tad low. I don't expect him to be at 14, 15, but that was just a little low for me because the pass rush plan is basically pocket pushing power. Yes. And he's got to develop ways to counter off of blocks. And that's the big thing for me. And honestly, why he's why he's nine is is i i just if he did not win with it don't now look here's the strengths and i probably see a lot of the strengths very similarly to the way that you do compact powerful stance pre-snap

has the frame to play both nose tackle and three technique explosive first step to shoot some gaps and get across the face and i think that he's strong against the run. So like, those are things that I think he does well. The problem is, is that I, I watched three full games of him from 2023. I did not really see him win at all. If he didn't win with his first step, if he in any way got into a matchup of strength with an interior offensive lineman. If both players got hands on the other cleanly, Tyleek would maybe push them back like a couple of feet with a leg drive. There's nothing there. He's got a counter.

He's got to learn how to counter. There wasn't a pass rush plan. There wasn't pass rush moves. There were no pass rush counters. He was not enough for me after the first second of the play first second of the play I can see a lot of the promise but if he did not win cleanly in that first second to me they're just there was not enough there consistently over the three games I watch and it worried me and it also worries me because

I don't know what his comfortable weight is. Because we mentioned this last year, I think, when we talked about Ty Lee. But for anybody that wasn't listening last year, new, shout out. Appreciate your subbing. Yeah, shout out. Hit subscribe on the way out. Please. Our families are starving.

He's a four-star defensive tackle. His senior season of high school was canceled due to COVID. So he went from his junior year of high school, didn't play and then he gets to Ohio State played in 12 games as a true freshman then he played in all 13 games 2022 played in a bunch of games last year I don't have the number in front of me by William's own account when he did not have his senior season of high school football he let himself go and he showed up to Ohio State at 360 pounds. Now granted, they have him listed at 327 now. So he showed up at 360.

Then he played that first year at like 350, 360. He was basically just trying to get back into shape. The following year, I believe Ohio State had him listed around like 320, 325 as a sophomore. And then last year they had him listed at 290, which was a complete lie. There's not a chance he's 290. You turn on any game last year and you go, that guy's not 290, not a chance in hell. So now they have him listed at 327 was last year's weight an error or is he just like fluctuating weight this heavily does he have the ability to get his weight into control i'm not putting a lot of weight into this 297 is what they haven't listed

as no uh what did i did i say 297 i was wondering what they have him now i have met at 325 and i think that's verified they listed him 290 last year there's no way there's no way there's not a chance to help there's no way and now he's listed at 327 yes so i think that's his comfortable weight anyways but has he been fluctuating weight this whole time is he able to hone in on his way to be able to play this position like we saw last year? So I sort of have some weight questions about him, whether or not this is what his true weight is going to be at or whether it's going to be higher, whether it's going to be lower, depending on how comfortable he is to where you can get to a place where he's going to be consistent with his weight. But ultimately, man, there are things to like about Tyleek Williams.

I'm in no way, shape or form writing him off. off but as of right now you took him out of the mock draft machine i did he's not i i deleted his entire profile i took his player id you can't even find it in premium stats i don't care if you pay 500 a year for pff premium stats i'm not giving it back to you he has to be so much more than what i saw last year after the first step and that's that's why there were just too many other guys who i liked uh as the play went on with counters or passers moves or even in run defense than i did for ty league so um maybe i'm the biggest hater in the world but uh i just i i needed to see more from him going into this year so do you have a three i have uh dion walker at three from kentucky okay i tell you i

have a two so that's kind of easy i figured i figured that that would be the case so dion walker from kentucky one of the most uniquely built individuals i've ever seen play football i would i would agree so he is a true junior. He's listed at 6'6", which is 96th percentile for an interior defensive lineman. 348, which is 98th percentile. So 96th percentile,

98th percentile in size. Also, that arm length is a massive plus as well. It's not like he's just 6'6", with short arms. I mean, he's got long arms too. Four-star defensive lineman from Detroit, Michigan, coming out of the 2022 recruiting class played defensive line but he also played offensive

tackle as a senior also played basketball in high school as you would expect if he did not play basketball in high school the basketball coach at whatever high school he went to needs to be fired and banned from uh coaching uh in any uh in any part of the state. Chose Kentucky over Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Michigan, amongst other schools. I'm very curious as to what you thought about Walker because I think I'm a little bit lower on him than what it sounds like a lot of other people are. People talk about Walker in the same conversation as mason graham like they could be like number one overall or top five picks that's projecting i did not right i didn't see that from even what we saw from walker last year but what did you think of him and i'll kind of bounce off

of what what you think of him i i agree with you i think he's really unpolished right now is what i thought when watching him play. When you're looking for the body type, he's like a heavier Michael Brockers. The body type doesn't make sense, man. It doesn't make sense. Brockers is a guy that's about six feet, six inches tall like Walker. But Brockers played about 325, not 348. So he's even heavier than him. There's not a lot of people built like this wait wait i just this just came to my mind he's built like muhammad wilkerson he is built like wilkerson but wilkerson

had way bigger calves and ankles and wilkerson wasn't that tall right yep yeah but he looked like he was that tall right well long arms he had such long arms and he had like he had a little bit he had a little bit of fat in the gut yep which walker does but dude walker's calves and ankles are so small he is there's no way anybody who's 348s ever had like this sort of build in the nfl plants it's time yeah i mean come on this is a booming business mo wilkerson had 97th percentile arm length that that immediately came to my head when you were when you were talking about he was just shorter than walker he's six four but there's a lot here and why people are maybe even projecting him as the top guy in this group. And I,

I use the word projection very specifically. He's a former four star out of Detroit, Michigan, right? Yep. Like you said, Trevor athletic background played center on his high school basketball team. You know,

he's a lefty. No. Yeah. That's what Kentucky writes in his bio. He's a lefty little south which is really interesting as a southpaw when you're a defensive lineman because not everybody expects you to throw your left do everything reverse right it's actually yeah actually a good point it's really unique so not really unique but really interesting when you're built like this and you're a lefty it's a little alien you know kind of stuff team captain is a true sophomore that jumped out to me

right away that's not very common i mean team captain is a true sophomore productive seven and a half sacks 12 and a half tackles for a loss i I did think some of the sacks were, you know, kind of chaotic plays that the quarterback ran into him a little bit, but yeah, still at seven and a half sacks. He's got that wrecking ball power, the unique size,

the natural tools, size, length, mass athleticism. He could set up an arm over cause he's so damn tall. Yeah. I thought he got a lot more confident in his raw power the later the season went where he started to blast through double teams i didn't see that the first

half of the season the second half of the season when he felt a double was coming towards him he knew how to kind of blast through it or hold the point of attack much better much improved he counters blockers by spinning off of them which at his size is kind of a marble to watch. And he's really good at the counter spin. Very good at the counter spin. And those long arms, he doesn't bat a lot of passes down, but they're disruptive. He forces quarterbacks to change arm angles because it's like setting up a door in front of the pocket at times

when he puts his arms up when he's rushing. So that's where the raw ability really comes into play here where he's just he's just born this way now a lot of people have these tools the weaknesses he comes off the ball high and out of control quite a bit like it's just out of control yep um he gets stuck on blocks against the run especially in the zone running game i noticed where when it's a downhill man running attack, it's I'm stronger, I'm bigger, I can pinball my way through this. In the zone game where it's requiring a little bit more vision

and timing and read and reacting, he wasn't as sharp getting through blocks. And I think the pass rush plan, as much as there are some flashes of the arm over, spinning off of guys, it still lacks a plan and refinement. He's kind of out there being the bully on the, on the schoolyard, which guess what?

There's a lot of guys in the NFL that do that as well. They're just bigger and stronger and quicker than everyone else. But I thought there was a gap for him in my number one guy, a pretty clear gap. He wins a lot right now off of just being unique yeah no the nfl is going to drool over this guy but and i and i'm not and i'm not saying that like that can also succeed at the nfl level but i do think that he still needs more refinement and what i would emphasize most is i think he he needs to emphasize as much added flexibility as he can

possibly get yeah you know start doing yoga just once a week build up to two times three times a week you'll be teaching yoga class in no time all right hot yoga goat yoga I don't care what it is just get a little bit of extra flexibility because you mentioned six foot six it can can have its advantages, certainly with the arm length, but it also has its natural disadvantages because a lot of times you're going up against smaller guards and guards who have a little bit wider of stances. So they're sitting a lot lower or centers who are obviously naturally much lower as well. And no matter who you are, go watch Parker Brailsford tape. Parker Brailsford is the textbook example of leverage is king. Low man wins. It is not just a phrase that you hear and that coaches say just because.

It's because it is true. And when you give up as much natural leverage as Walker does, it's just a little bit of a concern. And again, he can make up for it at the college level right now with that spin move that he has and the arm over and sometimes just getting length and being able to create that separation with those guys and kind of push them on their heels and everything like that. But at the NFL level, a lot of these interior offensive line players,

they're quicker, they're smarter, they're stronger. So you're not just going to be able to win because of the unique gifts, the way that he does at Kentucky right now. So yeah. And his weaknesses, I have not a lot of weight in his lower half. So when he, when he gets into leg drive battles, you know, he's got a ton of strength in his upper half, but when he starts to get in leg drive battles against some of these interior offensive linemen, the good ones can sometimes stonewall him even with him being at three 48. And I think that's because he just doesn't have a lot of,

a lot of mass, a lot of muscle in his lower half. So that's something to think about their high waisted build. This is the flexibility part that I was talking about. The high waisted build makes it tougher for him to sit in his stance and really get leverage off of the snap. If there's a world where he can get some added hamstring, groin, hip flexor, flexibility where he can sit a little bit lower in that stance

and fire off the ball, then all of a sudden I think that a lot of things start to get better for him, just even naturally. And then you talk about having a little bit more of a refined pass rush plan and being able to get in the backfield a little bit more quickly i think is important for him so not a refined player but a very uniquely gifted player a talented player and like you said somebody who i think this is a first round guy like i really do like even in his current state i think this is a late first guy. Like I really do. Like even in his current state, I think this is a late first, early second round type of a player. That's the grade I would give him right now.

But the NFL is going to look at him and say, man, what we can do with this guy could be unbelievable. And you see guys who are uniquely gifted, get drafted a lot higher. So I'm very excited to watch him this upcoming season, a little bit more of a plan from him. And you could see,

uh, obviously a player with a lot of special gifts and we could see some fun things from him without a doubt physically gifted player number one who i knew i i knew i believed in you i had faith all along wait did you do a number two yeah oh yeah yeah my brain just hit the pause button power went out number one i i did it i made it i didn't disappoint you i'm proud of you i'm very proud of you mason graham the uh really happy walter nolan is number one of course yes yes that is uh yeah your boy nazir stackhouse i was just gonna say stackhouse he's the perfect guy to say so mason graham we've talked about him a little bit already here on this podcast.

He is my interior defensive lineman number one. He is your interior defensive lineman number one. He is a true junior this year, 6'3", 318 pounds. So again, right around the 50th percentile in height, 81st percentile in weight. The arm length probably going to be a little bit shorter for Graham than that 50th percentile of height, but that's okay. Four-star interior defensive lineman from Anaheim, California. Played both offensive and defensive line when he was in high school. Love that. Was also a wrestler on the varsity team for four years in high school where he won two, count them, two state championships.

We love to see that. So he's got the wrestling background. He's got the offensive line background. And Connor, this is just a special football player. Yeah. 442 snaps last year. 84.8 pass rush grade. 90.0 pass rush grade on true pass sets. Pass rush win rate of 16.4, which was 98th percentile. Run defense grade of 87.8. Run stopping percentage of 11.9 96th percentile and like i talked about with howard cross there was only one player who had a higher wins above

average than he did and it was indeed mason graham who has a 0.30 the highest wins above replacement value metric that we had for an interior defensive lineman going into the season so what'd you think of him give me some film breakdown notes and uh and i'll kind of go off you there's a chance he's the best player in the draft honestly i mean you said all the background stuff nailed it big time wrestling background twitched up active hands strong enough to take on double teams angles his body and shows off great flexibility to shoot gaps. Wide array of moves, including, but not limited to, two-handed swipe, spin move, the grip strength to execute the push-pull. The 2023 film against both Alabama and Washington,

the biggest games of the year, he stood out. He's the guy that jumps out on tape. Yup. That said everything I needed to know about Mason Graham is that when it's time to go win a natty, your two toughest games of the year, arguably, I'm going to be one of the best players on the field. He's probably my highest ranked player right now. He's, I, I have to believe he's gonna be player one there's

actually a couple of corners that maybe corner class and safety class and could could contend for player one before it's all said and done but mason graham will absolutely be in consideration for the top player on on my board going into the season yeah for sure you just feel good about this one yes yes that's that's the kind of prospect you look at and you go okay i don't really see this not working um the strengths that i have for him elite first step explosiveness excellent bend and flexibility for an interior player i mean he is a extremely quick yep a stunt player like if he's ever the looper on a stunt or they'll even put him at five technique and he can get around the edge on offensive tackles

which is crazy super fast and powerful hands devastating push pull move really strong player who could hold who could hold the line and discard offensive linemen at will the only weakness i really have for this dude arms appeared a little bit be a little bit shorter but like he makes up for it so so well my scouting my preseason scouting blurb for him graham is a very impressive defensive line recruit though he's a tad shorter he has ideal weight for a versatile interior defender who can align anywhere from a five tech all the way to a shade nose his blend of power and speed has all pro potential. His hands and power make him hard to stay in front of in run defense and pass rush. First step explosiveness and flexibility plus the bend make him one of the best one gapping players in the country. Arms appear to be a tad

shorter, but the plays where that shows up as a negative are few and far between. He has the potential to be a top five pick. You know, he reminded me of? This is a little bit of a throwback, and I had a little bit of help from Mock Draftable to kind of jar this name from my memory, and then I went and looked at some film, and I actually liked it. Leroy Glover. Wow, that is a throwback.

And dude, Leroy was a, it took him a little bit of time to figure it out. I mean, he was a fifth round pick in 1996. He played for the Raiders for one year um then played for the barcelona dragons in 1997 and then when he got to new orleans in what year was this 1997 yeah yeah later in the 1997 season he just went off yeah i mean those new orleans seasons six and a half sacks 10 sacks eight and a half sacks 17 sacks eight sacks six and a half five seven three he was a three-time first team first time all pro um this dude was just a six six-time pro bowler the way that leroy glover

won because i saw his name and i was like oh oh, I kind of like that. I went back and I watched some film. They win in very similar ways. They were built very similarly. Speed, powerful hands, just devastating quickness getting into the backfield. So Leroy Glover is my early comp for Mason Graham here. He's going to be a favorite for everyone. I mean, we did talk about maybe some people will project Walker's tools over him. Yeah, I certainly couldn't i i just thought graham was just a he'd be a good nfl player today that's how good he was honestly there we go that's our uh that's our top eight actually you want to uh you want to read re uh read off of your top eight and then uh yes get out of here. Eight for me from Cincinnati, the Godfather, Dante Corleone,

seven for me from Clemson, Demonte Capehart. Six for me was Notre Dame's Howard cross. The third five was Shamar Turner from Texas. A and M four was Kenneth Grant from Michigan. Three was Tyler Williams from Ohio state. Two is Dion Walker from Kentucky. Number one was Mason Graham from Michigan.

Number eight, I had Howard Cross from Notre Dame. And number seven, I had his teammate Riley Mills from Notre Dame. Six, Bear Alexander from USC. Five, TJ Sanders from South Carolina. Four, the godfather himself, Dante Corleone from Cincinnati. Three, Deion Walker from Kentucky. Two, Kenneth Graham from Michigan.

And then Mason Graham from Michigan as well. At number one, I watched a handful more players. I watched Tyleek Williams, which you talked about. I watched Joey Slackman from Florida. I watched Thor Griffith from well, Joyce Lackman was at Penn and now he's at Florida going into the season.

Thor Griffith was at Harvard. Now he's at Louisville. I watched both of those guys a lot of brains between those two dude and they're monster run defenders too uh those guys have great backgrounds fun stories so if you guys have uh want us to explain that just shout it out in the comments i'll kind of give my thoughts on both those guys watch the nice peoples from virginia tech yeah um tonka hemingway walter nolan nazir stackhouse so if you guys have any questions on any of those players,

please fire off in the comments section. It's the best way for us to kind of see those questions and we can answer those, tell you what we thought if we watched them. Or, of course, name anybody else that maybe we didn't get to on our 14, 15 player list that we watched going into this. If there's somebody that we need to watch that you think is notable, let me know. I'll try to get to them before the season's over

to make sure to get them in the mock draft simulator for you guys to be able to draft um best way to get on the conversation no matter what it is youtube.com backslash at nfl stock exchange the comment section is the one-stop shop really for all of your feedback all the conversations all the back and forth between um the listeners and us if you're audio only, you can hit us up on X and Instagram at Tampa Bay trade at Connor J. Rogers as well. Connor, you get anything else before we, before we call it a week.

You summed it up pretty good. I also watched Jay Toya from UCLA. It's a lot of names in this group, more names that we still want to get through that are on the watch list. I think I have. Oh man, I have 11 names on the watch list that I didn't watch. Oh damn. I have 11 names on the watch list. That I didn't watch. Oh damn.

I got to most of the guys on my list. That I wanted to watch. I mean. I kind of know. Who's a day three UDFA. Projection. Where I know. Where I can cut it off.

For the summer. But you get surprised. Once in a while. That's the thing. You never know. When you're going to get surprised. So. And so.

We got edge next week. Right. That's. Yep. We got edge. you're going to get surprised. So, and so we got edge next week, right? That's yep. We got edge. It should be a banger. Honestly, I already have 18 edge rushers written down. It's always that I have this that I have to watch.

Yeah. Edge is going to be, that's going to be a really, really good group. I work hot. It's weird. Usually after edge, we go,

okay, linebacker corner safety this year. It feels different. I know corner and safety has a lot of first-round talent. Cow corner and safety are loaded. I know. And then we got to do kicker, punter, and long snapper. Of course.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're, you know, we're, of course, watching 20 long snappers before we get into the season. Snap velocity and timing and angle. If anybody's going to give it to the people, it's going to be us. It would truly say. It's not going to be us. I'm just letting you know. But if anybody was going to give it to the people, it's going to be us. It would like truly. It's not going to be us. I'm just letting you know.

But if anybody was going to give it to you. Like in need of antibiotics. I actually do need to check athletic scores for punters and long snappers because I'm sure we have the data on them. I'm sure you chipped everyone. It's true. Yeah. All right. I'll get to it.

I'll get to it before we get to the end of Summer Scouting. Appreciate everybody watching and listening to the show. I'm Trevor's thinking, but that is Connor Rogers. This has been the NFL stock exchange podcast. We'll see you next time.