NFL Stock Exchange: An NFL Draft Podcast - 263. Ranking 2025 NFL Edge Rushers (Summer Scouting)

Episode Date: July 31, 2024

Trevor Sikkema and Connor Rogers continue their Summer Scouting Series and coverage of the 2025 NFL Draft by ranking the draft-eligible edge rushers for the 2025 NFL Draft. The two bring you each of their top 10s (!!!) with strengths, weaknesses, player comps and projections

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It's awesome. Sign up now at youtube.com slash BS, device and content restrictions apply. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday ticket for out-of-market games excludes digital-only games. Welcome to the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. In this episode, back to summer scouting. This time, we're talking edge rushers. Everybody loves to talk about these dudes, and because of it, we're extending how many players that we watched and that we talk about here in this show.

We also have a bit of a surprise at who is going to be at number one. This is a really fun conversation. A lot of different edge rushers to talk about. I'm Trevor Sycamore. With me, as always, is Connor Rogers. Let's ring the bell. Welcome to the opening bell of the NFL Stock Exchange Podcast. Trevor Sycamore, Connor Rogers, with you guys for another episode of the Summer Scouting Series. Today we're talking about edge rushers. And Connor and I, as we were kind of chit-chatting a little bit before the show, we like this edge rusher class so much that we're giving you guys each our top 10s going into the season.

We've done five before. We've done eight. But we love you guys so much that we're actually going to try to accelerate it and give you ten names each on our list headed into the season. Connor, how you doing, my friend? I'm good, man. This is a fun group to watch, and I'll tell you why. I like rolling out of bed and being able to turn on the Olympics right away, where it's perfect because it's in Europe,

so the time zone is actually great for the mornings when you're just watching film and you got bmx on in the background women's field hockey yes ping pong i the sports that you find yourself immersed in like you turn around you're like that's good background noise by by the second quarter of field hockey like man we got to get a a goal off a corner here i didn't even know it was quarters to be honest with you you could have told me it was halves or thirds or periods or so so it's funny when i turned it on it said third at that point and i was like oh man i hope the game's not almost over and then the announcer said quarter and i'm

like nice nice this is great the things you learn. So I'm usually somebody that I watch film with baseball in the background or cinematic music, something very light. And I've realized the Olympics is on the Mount Rushmore of background things that are really, really light. So it's been great, man. It does make sense. I've tried to listen to podcasts more

while I've been watching film because it's just a lot of time. We devote a lot of time to watching film and so if I'm able to multitask that right then maybe I can become a little bit smarter while I'm watching film I can't really do it man I don't know why I can't do podcasts I gotta be like locked in like I'm a psychopath I'm like no music no nothing let me watch the film in silence because it's not not even, you know, like Just Bomb Productions, shout out on YouTube, where you got highlight film, rap music, or gum steppers.

It's always Meek Mill. It's Meek Mill 99% of the time. Meek Mill, yeah. Meek Mill and Future are like two of the greatest. Highlight tape artists. Video artists. are like two of the greatest like highlight tape artists video art which speaking of did you see quavo covered um i want to fly away have you seen this clip yet i can't imagine this so quavo so quavo it's got like adlibs dude so he covers this and the second you listen to it i think

dionte lee shout out one of the best football minds that we got here in this space, he quote tweeted the video clip, and he was like, this is going to be every single Fox, CBS, NFL Network outro going to commercial little soundbite that we have, and he couldn't be more right. You're going to hear, if you haven't heard it now, you're going to be taking it. That's why i'm not gonna melody to your grave it's probably an upgrade over though like you get one imagine dragon song each year and you get it 75 000 times and it's always the same kind of song they never actually make like a new song they just redo one

of their old songs with a beat, a drum beat. Yeah. Remember the year that Fall Out Boy Centuries was basically on every single college football commercial and outro that there possibly was? Dude, you can't miss it. They got the back. They got the back. And, you know, I love boys. Before we get into addressers, though, I do want to say, speaking of the Olympics, handball. All right.

Great sport. I don't know jack shit about it but i was passionately invested in i i think it was like france versus versus i don't know australia or something the other night and i was like this is insane i mean like how they were able to score and get the ball off and what they were doing they're just they're just running around i'm sitting here watching this sport i'm like do they have to dribble because some of them are dribbling but why would you dribble if you don't have to dribble keeping up with the rules for this is half the battle and i'll put the bow on the olympic combo with this did you see what our u.s women's rugby team did hell yeah i did brother basically it was basically the equivalent of scoring a 99 yard touchdown when the clock runs out that's lit by trucking two people and she goes full beast mode with it too just like

stiff arm and then gone dude absolutely bananas the first time the uh u.s women's rugby team has meddled and what a what a way what a way to do it. Huge shout out. Unreal moment. Shout out. I probably shouldn't be doing that. We have a lot of international listeners. We love you. Try not to turn off the podcast here early.

But hopefully you stick around and you're still here for the address. Don't worry. We're going to get our ass whooped in other sports. It's like what goes around comes around. That's true. Not many, though. Not many. maybe three or four just saying i mean maybe it'll happen once uh okay let's get into these edge rushers we'll go

a little bit quicker you're 10 to 5 but yeah we say that and we we just like to talk about these guys so much maybe it's not too much quicker but connor i'll let you start out do you want to go 10 to 6 10 to 6 just go 10 to 6 fired off and then we'll just kind of do what we've done before you know pick out some guys that we really want to talk about and emphasize the most yeah we watched a lot of players for this so we'll try to be you know we'll jump around here but my my 10 to 6 year starts with jaw joiner from minnesota at number 10 okay number nine was landon jackson from arkansas number eight was jt tui malooal from Ohio State. One of the biggest surprises of guys that didn't declare last year. Number seven was Ashton Jalati from Louisville. It was a big

surprise for me when he didn't declare. And then number six is Kamen Rucker from UNC. Okay. All right. So whoever you had at number 10 is the only guy on that list. I didn't watch. Jod Joyner from Minnesota. Yes. Talk to me about it. Joyner is really interesting because when you look at just from a pure production standpoint, what he was able to do, I'll start with his measurable.

So he's a redshirt senior at Minnesota. Six, four and a quarter to 56 is where I have him at right now. Can host the pod. He can absolutely host the pod. This is an entire episode of players who can host the pod. Most of them are built to host the podcast. It's this tight end usually. Which for anybody listening who doesn't get the longstanding inside joke,

Connor and I very obviously, as you can tell watching this YouTube channel, are 6'4, 240 pounds, just like pure low body fat Olympic muscle. Yeah, 2% body fat to be exact. Yeah, absolutely. Although, you know, I'm flaring a little bit. I'm cutting a little bit, so now I'm 1'8". I'm 1'8". You know, you got to look good during the summer.

Beach body. Yeah, if you're an NFL player and we're talking about you and you are not 6'4", 240 pounds, you cannot host this podcast. We apologize. Wanted to make sure. We apologize. So Joyner last year quietly had a pass rush win rate over 23%. Dang, 23?

I know, he was kicking ass. He really was. Miles Garrett? And you watch him. I mean, he's just got heavy hands and a heavy frame that when he gets hit with contact when tackles throw their hands at him he just runs through a lot of people and doesn't really lose speed I've seen that you know counter spin move before uh he can corner a little bit into the pocket but he's so strong that he kind of makes these advantageous angles with that

strength to just blow up plays. I mean, you look at him in our system, Trevor, we had him ultimately with 46 total pressures, but nine sacks and eight quarterback hits. So this like these are impact plays. He's not a guy that just racked up 50 hurries. I mean, he was hitting the quarterback. He was getting sacks. He was making some big time plays. He, you know, he's a big body on the edge i think there's some things he can clean up as a run defender but yeah joiner is an interesting one to me i would say on this list he can be a big riser uh from 10 honestly and i have some guys behind him that you know are probably more household names but i was very very impressed what he was able to do and

going back to school could be a really big move for him because if he has the same kind of season and then goes through the all-star circuit and has some reps against high-end tackles, and he's in the Big Ten, so he sees good tackle play, I think Joyner is looking to be maybe a top 75 pick, honestly, when all is said and done. Look, if you replicate a 23% pass-to-swing percentage,

people are going to take notice. Even if you're just a specialized player, which I think there's a handful of guys in here that might be specialized players at the NFL level, but that specialized role I think can be very valuable, and we're going to get into that sort of as we talk throughout the episode. So the two guys that I do want to talk about on your list that are near the end of mine, I have Rucker at 10 10 okay North Carolina and I think that we could talk about him I have Gelati at 11 okay so he's just

outside of my top 10 I am kind of surprised that that Gelati didn't end up making my top 10 but I think it does speak to how deep the middle part of this edge rush group is. Because, you know, I brought up Myles Garrett's name. I don't see like a Myles Garrett, a Nick Bosa, like one of those just like crazy top tier edge rusher type of players. Although we can get into some of the guys that might have a chance to be number one overall picks. But I think the heart, if you will, like anywhere from back end of the first round to end of day two. I think there's a lot of those edge rushers. And I think that kind of speaks to why Jelati ended up being

just outside of my top 10. But what'd you think about? Cause where did you have him? You were pretty high on him. Where was he for you? Jelati, I believe was seven for me. Let me double check this. Yeah. Jelati, Jelati was seven for me. So I do check this. Yeah. Jaladi Jaladi was seven for me. So I do want to talk about him a little bit. He's went to Louisville. You mentioned he could, he could have gone to the draft last year, a little shocked that he didn't red shirt senior going into this season. I'll kind of explain why I might be a little bit lower on him. And then I'd love to hear a little bit of sort of what you think as well. Six foot three, 275 pounds. That's 32nd percentile in height. so he's a little bit shorter. But the weight at 275, that's 78th percentile.

So he's a bigger, stronger dude. I see him as a 4'3", defensive end. Anything from a 4 technique, 5 technique, obviously you can kick him out a little bit more. But I think his home spot is right there. Either head up or right outside shoulder of the offensive tackle. Or maybe a little bit inside. I don't think you need to play him at like three tech you can get away with it but his best work's going to be as an edge rusher more as like a four and five technique guy I think he's got very good very good uh overall size and I think he carries a lot of

that in his lower half like his legs his quads hams, the glutes. He is built. And you see some serious leg drive from him in that regard. I would say that total top speed. He's, sounds bad, but one of the slower edge rushers that we've watched. But in terms of that first step. Getting off the line of scrimmage. That power. Man, converting that speed to power is

also something that he does very very well i saw this in his background i don't know if you caught this he went to the state championship for weight lifting when he was in high school and he was also 21st ranked 21st in the southeast region CrossFit competition that he participated in. So dude's strong, understands the weight room very, very well. Connor, the big issue for me with him, because he's got pretty good pass rush grades. He had a 17.9 pass rush win percentage, really nice run defense grade. I mean, there's definitely reasons to like Gelati. The thing that held me back from him is you could tell he loves

contact and he loves to be physical and i mentioned that as a strength of his game but he almost likes it a little too much right not a lot of finesse yeah and and he's also he doesn't disengage as fast as i think that he could it's almost like he he loves getting in those wrestling dog fights with offensive tackles. And if it was a little bit quicker to disengage, and that was sort of his mindset a little bit more, I think we've got a really good player on our hands. I think we've got a really good 4-3 defensive end on our hands.

He reminded me, size and play style of power first, of Adrian Claiborne, who was a former first-round pick for the Buccaneers, who was with Iowa. Just this big, powerful guy who based his pass rush around a bull rush. And Claiborne really couldn't get that finesse game down in the NFL. That's why he didn't really live up to that first-round billing. But that sort of power profile, obviously, when you can dominate and be as powerful as you are and you love that physical mentality, very clearly the NFL likes you a lot.

So that was my comp for him, but that was also a little bit of a detractor of sort of I gotta get you to get off blocks quicker at the college level this year because it only gets more difficult in the NFL that's a really good point about Jaladi he's definitely to me a floor over ceiling guy in this class which made this group really hard to rank because some guys are just ceiling guys some guys are floor I had Jaladi at seven because I really like the floor of the player. I mean, this is someone that a lot of places had as a two-star recruit. And last year, he ends up having 14.5 tackles for a loss, the 11 sacks. You mentioned the pass rush win rate of 17.9.

He's got a big body. He's not that tall. I have him closer to 6'2 and 3'8". Oh, okay. So he's a shade under. He's a shade under 6'3", but he's wide. He's like a legit 266, 270, you know, hand in the dirt. Can play up and down the line of scrimmage like you mentioned.

I really am impressed with the varied pass rush approach, Trevor. I saw the long arm. I saw some outside burst. You mentioned the first step, the swim move. I think he knows how to maximize his length. He can kind of flip his hips and angle his way to a quarterback with all that weight, which is really surprising. And then he's just got speed to power that works against tackles and guards, right? So I don't think he's overly explosive, bendy or twitchy, which is not usually my type of edge rusher.

But at some point in this league, you need guys that you could throw out there on first and second down that can hold the four and that could play with some some sandpaper, some, you know, grit really and kind of hold the point of attack. And Joe and we're going to have this combo throughout this edge class a ton because there I say it all the time. There's some cruiserweights in the heavyweight arena in this group that you love. You love them. Yeah. But like the game is the game. Like the NFL is different. And Jelati, he's a big man that can handle things that some of these edge rushers are going to have to grow into. So I like the floor of what he brings to the table. It's tough to deny somebody who you can look at and say very clearly your power profile fits the NFL.

You're going to find a way to play. And he is the only one who I mentioned. So I write down some go-to moves for these guys as well. He's the only guy of everybody I watched who I wrote down. He's got that Reggie White hump move sometimes. He'll drop his weight to the back foot. He will then just take his arm and forklift these guys just straight over, and he's got the strength to be able to do it.

And, you know, Reggie White obviously coined it, and people think about him, and Reggie's one of the greatest pass rushers, obviously, of all time, maybe the best pass rusher of all time. But that move, that hump move, just it shows raw strength, man. And the competence. Right, and not everybody. I mean, you are getting across the guy's fate and you are just like forklifting a 300 pound man and gelati can do it he's basically the only guy who i even saw attempt it let alone

uh be successful at it so that just gives you an idea of how powerful this guy is i want to talk about rucker next uh kaman Rucker from North Carolina. He is my number 10, so let's talk about him, and then I'll get to the rest of the guys in my top 10. We'll have a little bit of back and forth because a lot of the names are similar. I got Rucker. Wait, do you have him at 6? I have him at 6, yeah.

Okay, so I got him at 10. I've got him listed at 6' one and a fourth. Yep. 257, like high two fifties, two 57, two 58, something like that. So the height is third percentile for an edge rusher. The weight is 33rd percentile. So obviously this is somebody who's got some measurable deficiencies that he's working up against no matter what. But really good numbers from this guy. I mean, pass rush grade 89.0, which, hold on, I got to say this first, 894 snaps last year. The man's out here.

Not a lot of guys doing that. The man is out here playing ball. I was at Big Ten Media, and I had Jay Higgins, the linebacker from Iowa, who led the Big Ten in defensive snaps last year, and I brought it up to him. I don't even think he knew it. And he's like, I look at it as more football. More football is great.

And I'm like, you're just nuts. It's the most linebacker thing I've ever heard. Right. But it's a great outlook. Not a lot of guys are doing this anymore. And you kind of got to have that mentality again to play linebacker. So I absolutely love that. So, okay, Rucker, 89.0 pass rush grade, 87.8 pass rush grade on those true pass sets,

which, you know, true pass sets, you're taking out the RPOs, you're taking out play action, you're taking out the screens, things like that. Passes win percentage, 19%. It's 89th percentile run defense grade. This is where it gets a little lower. You know, obviously having a lower weight profile hurts 67.2. Connor, something I like about Rucker and what really gives me faith with him because I kind of built out his attributes and his grade,

and it was initially lower after watching two games. But then I'm watching the third game, and I'm like, you know, actually, like, I like this a little better. And I kind of brought up a lot of his attribute grades, and the grade ended up being a little bit higher the arm length first and foremost he's got a bigger wingspan than a guy who's six foot one just straight up so a lot of times when you talk about oh these edge rushers they're smaller in height you normally correlate that with arm length because if you got shorter arms that just makes it more difficult for you but if you are

and this is the player that kind of comped him to it's not a perfect comp but i think body type javon solomon from last year right kind of built like a linebacker but he's got vines for arms so he was still able to hit you with a long arm he was still able to get that kind of space and so at least rucker who's more of a compact dude, powerful, just more narrow type of build, he's got those long arms, which I think saves him in how he is still able to get after the passer, despite being a little bit shorter at also that shorter height, then essentially it's just a natural leverage for him. So I like him, but just the overall size limitations,

I think he's probably a outside linebacker only for a 3-4 defense and somebody who's probably more of a position specialist. But what do you think about Rucker? You're higher on him with him at No. 6, so what do you think about him? Yeah, it's no surprise. I loved Mo Kamara last year. I think these bendy-ish compact rushers, if they can play, I'll be pretty high on them compared to other

people and and when i look at cayman rucker i mean the tape is phenomenal it really really is i don't know if he could develop enough power quite frankly that's the big thing just overall and that's that's in every aspect of the game like you said defending the run rushing with a little bit more variance but i don't know if there's anyone in the country that had more, you know, production that doesn't necessarily correlate with the sack totals. Three and a half sacks. But you brought up the pass rush win rate of 19%. He was just whooping up on people and wreaking havoc. And this is a former three-star recruit high school shot put

thrower nickname is the butcher oh i didn't know that oh yeah the nickname is the butcher style points oh damn yeah the butcher all right he's at least nine for me now he's i mean this is somebody that can carry that nickname easily the bend the flexibility he's already naturally the low man off the ball throughout the rep at that height yeah he's already naturally the low man off the ball throughout the rep at that height yeah he's phenomenal at dipping his shoulder and angling his body simultaneously and a lot of tackles can't touch him they can't touch him so i thought the tape was great i think he's extremely disruptive and explosive and just the the flexibility that he has to win outside and inside in terms of he gets a tackle on an

island he can rush skinny through that gap but he opens up that gap by his outside speed and bend where if a tackle starts to set wide he can kind of cross over through the gap and beat them inside across their face so i was really high on cayman rucker i can't wait to see what he could do this year he might ultimately at the end of the day, be an NFL pass rush specialist. But look at what pass rush – like Bryce Huff is a pass rush specialist. The Eagles just gave him $20 million a year. Right. Because if you can get your defense off the field, that wins you games.

So I just – I don't really get as tied up anymore with guys that right now look like pass rush specialists with the ceiling to develop into more complete players if you could just rush the hell out of the quarterback and i think that's exactly what cayman rucker could do yeah and i you know bryce huff is i think a lot of people think of bryce huff naturally so i'm that that is high praise for a smaller guy who is built similarly but rucker is built similarly. So it's not like out of the question, I think bringing up Huff's name to like what you said,

that's sort of the ceiling of somebody being able to achieve what is a more specialist role. That doesn't mean they don't have value. It's just, you know, you gotta be in the right defense. And obviously Huff certainly was in New York and I think he'll be in Philadelphia as well.

So, all right, I'll, I'll give my 10 and then we can sort of decide. I'll give you dealer's choice of where you want to go next. So I mentioned Kamen Rucker from North Carolina. He's 10 for me. Patrick Payton from Florida State.

I have him at number nine. JT Tuimaloao, funny enough. I also have- That's really funny. Number eight from Ohio State. I have his teammate Jack Sawyer at number seven okay i have landon jackson from arkansas then at number six to sort of round out my ten through six so where do you want to start there with those names i think we should talk about landon jackson right

i mean i had him at nine you said you had him at six i got him at six yeah yeah i mean what an interesting player right from the size profile that here's where i'll start and then i'm gonna throw the sally up to you so landon jackson arkansas edge who's i know everybody runs with the listed height at six seven i'm at six five and three eights for whatever it's worth he's still he's large oh is that what is that what his uh official came in at? Or spring, like spring measurements? Yeah, that's what I have him as from spring. Okay. He's still large, 271 pounds, over 6'5".

But, you know, everybody will tweet out the 6'7", and I don't know. Right. You'll see it a lot there, so there you go. Trevor, he had 6 1⁄2 sacks and 13 1⁄2 tackles for a loss last year. Former top 100 prospect in his recruiting class four of them are against alabama like you watch all of these guys and they're legit sacks he's not just running stunts and falling into sacks or cleaning up plays he is such an interesting player man you're a little higher on him so i want to hear what you

thought of him but there's moments with landonon Jackson where you think he's a top 20 pick yeah and then the lack of consistency to me thinks he's more of a top 75 kind of thing yeah and I think that's that's sort of where I am with him so so he's a senior and you mentioned even Arkansas has got him listed at six foot seven you know 280 pounds even with what you said like a shade under six foot six um 271 those are still really good numbers well above the 50th percentile i mean the height is still basically 90th percentile right there for him um so he's a big dude he's a really big edge rusher and i think that that gives you a ton of versatility with him i think he's a true defensive end that gives you versatility to play as a three four end because of

that length and then also as a four three end to be able to play as a 5 technique if you think that he can learn to win more one-on-one and that's something that I think is sort of next for him if you will I like him the most as a 4-3 defensive end I think that you can get the most out of him in that regard again you could play him in an odd front as a defensive end but I don't I think there's better return on investment there for him. A issue for him is he does have an injury history. He tore his ACL as a sophomore in high school, had an ankle injury his senior year of high school

that kept him out of either the whole season or a lot of games that season. Also had an ACL injury his freshman year when he was at LSU. Didn't really play when he was there, transferred over to Arkansas. And so he's been fully healthy for the last two years, I believe. But just that's something to note is sort of that injury history that he has because that's a lot of wear and tear that's there on him. For sure. He's gained 40 pounds at least since his recruiting weight

because he was listed at like in the 230s, 240, and now he's 270, 280-ish. He's put on a lot of weight, and I think he carries it very, very well. Strength and weaknesses for him. He's got difference-making build. Obviously, the height, weight, length, obviously above the 50th percentile. He's got really adequate strength to be able to hold the line of scrimmage. I think he's really good when pulling blockers are coming to his side. He's able to kind of hold his ground, and as they are coming with momentum,

he is able to meet them with equal strength and not give up too much ground. You talk about some of the sacks that he had against Alabama, but even throughout the season, man, surprising flexibility for a player, his size doesn't always show up, but there are a couple of reps where you go, okay, if that's in the tank, you're not supposed to be able to do that. That's what I said. Right, right. Exactly. And I think that's ultimately why I'm just so high on him is like these flashes, man, they're kind of crazy.

Long arms obviously make it very difficult for him to, for offensive tackles to really be able to handle him and keep him blocked. I think that the larger frame sort of impacts the change of direction ability just naturally because he's a bigger guy. I think the first step is decent, but it's not always as consistent as you want it to be. And I think overall, that's probably just the word that I would use for him. Consistency. The hand usage isn't always consistent as the way that you want it to be. There are times when he gets one-on-one with an offensive tackle where I go, oh, here we go, buddy.

And he just doesn't get by him or he doesn't get off the block. And it's like, man, I've seen you own some of these situations before. And I wonder if it's maybe a little bit more faith with the knee injury you know another year removed from having that knee injury maybe he'll play with a little bit more confidence I think Arkansas also plays their defensive lineman a little bit further off the ball um I I wonder if that's sort of a extra time extra step to be able to read and react tool especially when it comes to run defense you know can you position yourself the way that you need to if that first step from the offensive lineman is north to south if you see

that it's more of like a man gap blocking play or if they're slanting one way or another another if you see that it's a counter play if you see it's a zone play well if Landon Jackson or whoever is on Arkansas's defense blind if you're a little bit more off the ball that gives you a split second to be able to react and put it sort of put yourself where you need to be to be able to contain the run a little bit better it does make it more difficult to get up the field and pass rush when you're playing that alignment so that's sort of something that you kind of have to have in the back of your mind when you're watching them as well as it feels like he's a little bit further off the ball where some schemes might have him a little bit closer and he might be able to make a little bit more out of that burst.

Get even with the offensive tackles, maybe get around a little bit easier for a dip and rip move or a chop rip move. But ultimately, I love the size. I love the potential athletic ability. I love the baseline for the strength for him. And you just there ain't many of these guys that look the way that he does, that carries the weight that he does. And I think a more consistent year for him will yield a top 50 selection. So that's why I got him at six. You could see why he went back to school.

I remember when he did, I was so surprised because I was starting to hear a lot of hype about him. And then, and you look at the measurables and the game against Alabama, but when you watch the full sample size, you're like, oh, he truly can be a top 15 pick if everything went right for him. Yes. But he's not today.

And that's a gamble that is, in this day and age of NIL, is definitely worth taking. Because honestly, worst case for him, he's the top 75 pick probably. But there's a world where he does go in the first round and that's that's a willing gamble on his part the way that i saw when it comes to like player comps he's somewhere between like carl nasa been aiden hutchinson now he's nowhere close to aiden hutchinson yet but that frame the size some of the potential moves that we've seen from him give you a little bit of flash of what Hutch was.

Now, Hutch did it all the freaking time when he was at Michigan, so that's the big difference here. But that's sort of the bigger, longer, edge rusher feel. He's closer to what Carl Nassib was right now, but I think the ceiling is there for him to be even more than that. So where are we going next? All right, so did we miss anyone from the 10 to six? I have Sawyer a little higher,

so we can wait on him just a moment. Do you have Patrick Payton in your five? No, Payton for me landed at 13. Okay. All right. You want to chat about Payton? I got him at nine. We should talk about Payton a little bit for sure.

All right. I'll put my notes on him. Patrick Payton, redshirt junior, Florida State, going into this season, the, he is listed at six foot five, 250 pounds of six to five, the 79th percentile, 250 pounds is just 15th percentile. He has a slender build. I mean, he is a, you know, obviously it's the upper tier of height and the lower tier of weight. And so he is just a much more slender build. I think so in his current state i

could see him being like a stand-up outside linebacker type he's got some versatility to him but i think for the nfl it's more likely they're going to try to throw at least 10 pounds on this guy get him to 260 and have him play as a 4-3 defensive end with that length did you think he was 250 when watching him because i know i i i if you told me he was like 247 246 i thought he was closer to 240 ish he's he's like long and lean i don't think he's all the way at 240 but if you told me he was a shade under 250 i'd be like yeah okay so ultimately again like i think the n NFL is going to pack some more pounds on him. Now, here's the interesting thing. He was a linebacker recruit. He was a four-star linebacker recruit from Miami, Florida.

Connor, he's already put on 45 pounds since his recruiting weight. It's impressive. He was 205, 210 for his recruiting weight. And so if he's 245, 250, that's already putting on about 40 pounds. And it looks like he's got some more to put on there so it does that definitely gives me faith there um the long arms big time advantage for him he bases a lot of what he does on a long arm move when it comes to pass rushing uh with the height arm length appears well above average for the position. And I will note this too, the long arms, they also helped in pass defense.

He had 10 batted passes in 2023, by far the most in the FBS. It's crazy. The next closest to him had seven all year last year. And that was one guy. I don't even remember who it was. And then after that one guy who had seven it goes down to five so he almost had essentially like double who was in like third place for most batted passes for an edge rusher for an edge rusher i should say that um and he holds his ground decently well pound for pound but there's just only so much that you could do with that lower of a weight profile um i think that really he needs to anticipate the he needs to anticipate where the ball is going a little bit better.

I think there are times when he shows good flexibility in Ben, but I think that's inconsistent as well. He lacks the counters to really be able to get off blocks. I feel like he's just kind of trying to win with that first step, win with that long arm, and then if he doesn't, there's nothing really there. He reminds me of Joe Tryon and Sho Yenka in that regard. Sho Yenka was somebody who had that build, had that length, very alluring, had a couple of reps in that first preseason when he was with the Buccaneers

that he really was able to showcase getting off the line of scrimmage really fast. And we went, holy cow, Bucs fans are like, we got something here. We got a steal, baby. You let us get him at 32. And I was one of those people. I was like, God damn, did Jason Light do it it again just tweeting your ass off oh dude it was there was going on von miller get to the box i mean essentially that's what i was saying um but you know we've all done it as his career has gone on shoyink has kind of lacked those counters to be

able to have more of a pass rush profile and i think think that's sort of the arc that Patrick Payton is on right now. If he cannot get more versatile with, I would say attacking the inside shoulder as well, mastering sort of a, a swim or an arm over move and just really being able to get off blocks a little bit easier. Cause it felt like once offensive tackles got their hands on him, that was kind of it. He was,

he was not really going to make an impact on the play. So to me, I like the build, like the long arms, do like the speed profile a little bit there, but needs better hand usage. He's got to be able to get off of blocks a little bit quicker. And overall, he's just got to be a little bit stronger. I saw him pretty similarly to you.

I just thought he was a player that loved playing in space, wider alignments. But when the things got a little tighter and turned to a phone booth, that thin lower half showed up a lot where it's getting moved around. It's it's a little tougher of, you know, and that's that's the NFL game a lot. So pass rush win rate was a little low. It was below 12 percent. But I think when you look at that defense, it didn't always put him in the most advantageous situation to rack up that number. So definitely somebody I enjoyed watching, and I'll keep an eye on this year because, like you said, Trevor, if he puts on some more weight, he could even be a different player.

So you want to talk about the Ohio State guys next? Those are the only two players. Yeah, we should talk about Tui Maloa. I totally forgot. Okay, I don't know where Sawyer is. If he's way high, we can do that a little bit later. We can talk about Sawyer. I have him at four.

Okay, so that's – yeah, I don't want to jump too far around, but let's at least talk about Tuima Loa. So this is... Ohio State is a senior this year, true senior. I don't know how many people thought that he was going to make it to his true senior year because he was the number four overall player in the 2021 recruiting class, number two overall defensive lineman, and the 24th highest rated player in 247's history crazy obviously is a five-star edge played both football and

basketball when he was in high school received a scholarship to play basketball actually at Washington Oregon as well as a senior I found this he averaged 18 points per game and eight rebounds while playing guard forward and center and center at times. Dude was out here. He actually considered playing basketball for OSU, but opted to focus on football pretty quickly once he got to OSU. I feel like I've been spearheading some of these recruiting, or sorry, these scouting reports. So I'd love to hear, what did you think about Tuimaloa?

We both have him at number eight, so we both see him pretty similarly here. But what'd you think about him? He's a guy with brilliant moments, and he's a really consistent player in this front seven because he's so heavy-handed, which a lot of the Ohio State defensive linemen typically are, the way they're coached. It's just the reason why he's not in the top five and why I was a little lower when he was expected to come out last year i saw him getting first round buzz and i didn't necessarily see it that way is he can be a little

limited to as a rusher which is why his win rate typically isn't too high because he's not a very creative and varied rusher right which is interesting and you see that a lot at certain schools but not at this school i mean the past rushers that come out of this school can usually win in a hundred different ways so he fits the gelati mold to me where i love the floor i don't know if the ceiling is necessarily where it is for these other guys last year seven tackles for loss five sacks the year before that 10 10 and a half tackles for loss five sacks the year before that 10 10 and a half tackles for loss three and a half sacks you mentioned the recruiting profile it's it's through the roof he's battle tested against high-end offensive tackles like for sure

olu fashion new who he he has the best known rep against fashion new pretty much yeah you know and fashion new scouting profile now i will say i watched the rep again when he beats him for a sack and fashion new is looking to help his guard. And by the time he looked over, by the time he looks back, it's too late. And this is credit to Tui Maloa, right? He's got strong hands where you got to be ready for the thunder that's coming. But I did find that interesting. So, so that's this that's the same thought process that remember when everybody was killing jc latham

for the last play of the michigan game yes when they basically lost everybody's like this is your first round offensive tackle he's giving up the the last play of the game and the season's over and if you watch it it's the same thing they hike the ball and Latham for a split second he looks inside I don't know I think it's because they were kind of overloading that side but he's just checking the guard and by the time he looks over the defensive end had one goal in mind go through Latham's face and the second the ball was snapped that defensive lineman was going straight at his chest and that second of hesitation with him looking to his left context people you gotta you gotta

be able to sometimes slow it down a little bit and see the whole picture so that's a good call out by you yeah it was interesting and once again it's a credit to to him a low out because of how heavy-handed he could play but um it was just interesting to me he works off blocks with the counter spin he's not a guy that uses a spin move, but he can counter off blocks by spinning. And why scouts and a lot of people and why we like Tui Maloa is like it's a cliche, but he puts on his hard hat against the run. He really does. It's not. This is Big Ten football.

This is big. This game is played in the trenches in the big 10 and i know there's some schools coming into this conference that can play a little differently at times but that's the nature of it when ohio state plays penn state when ohio state plays michigan shit watch minnesota in this conference right they do the same damn thing that's why you hear about ariante or serene jaw joiner so tui malo deserves a lot of credit for that like he he's nfl starter caliber but i don't see the creativity and movement skills to ever be a pass rush demon necessarily and maybe that's something he finds this year and that was part of the plan going back to school but it hasn't shown up yet and i think recruiting expectations maybe set things a little unfairly for him at

times but he is every bit of an nfl player i'm sure he'll be a top 50 pick when all is said and done because this is kind of the mold the nfl really likes and fans can underappreciate but i don't i don't know i'm just not as bullish on him taking the jump that I am on some of the guys ahead of him. Yeah, I mean, not to be cliche with another former Ohio State Buckeye, but he kind of reminded me of Sam Hubbard, right? That's a really good call out. And Hubbard was a damn good player,

but nobody ever expected Hubbard to be an elite player. That's the difference. And he is a damn good player, right? He's a damn good player. He got a bag. He got a good amount of money because of how high his floor is. And I just see – I'm with you. I see Tuimaloa was the same way.

I would have – I thought the basketball background, honestly, would have kind of translated to winning one-on-one as a pass rusher a little bit more, but he just doesn't seem to have that finesse speed game. And I agree with you. I think it's a really high floor for him, but we see him very similarly there at number eight. So who'd you have at number five? We'll do that first, and then we'll get into Sawyer in a sec.

I think this is going to surprise people, but I had Mikel Williams from Georgia at five. Okay. All right. I really struggled with this one. Okay. And I didn't struggle in a sense where I get the potential. He's a junior. He's six, five, two 65. I don't think this Georgia scheme and team has asked them to just pin his ears back and run rush like a maniac. I get it right. Last year, six and a half tackles for loss, four and a half sacks, 11.5 pass rush win rate, former four-star, top 50 overall prospect in his class.

I mean, this is the guys that Georgia gets in there. He's got the big size. I already see people saying Trayvon Walker, Trayvon Walker. He plays inside and outside. He's got a great frame to handle each role. He's got a clear power profile and he's athletic for his weight and once again i didn't think the scheme set him up to be the super productive guy the pass rush production he had is mostly off of stunts last year and that's

okay but you watch him in the conference championship against alabama i don't think he i didn't think he had an answer and once again that's okay he's a young player there's more put on his plate he's getting bigger stronger he's going to figure out how to rush the passer he's number five in a really good edge class like that is high praise I know there are people that are going to look at Mike Cal Williams and have him as the number one in this class or as a potential number one overall pick and that is projecting and i get it that's the name of the game there's a lot of projecting in nfl draft scouting i just thought trevor and i felt this way about trevon walker at the time he's got a long ways to go to take

over games not just be in you know a good starter an impact player but to take over games and i think the alabama tape really really showed that with him where he is right now so i have mike ellett too and i'm surprised i have him at two yeah i'm actually surprised too because you know you mentioned six for five 265 pounds you know he's a he's a true junior going into this season when i was watching him from afar, like I was watching Nazir Stackhouse actually last week when we were doing interior defense deployment. Just standing there clogging, just two gapping.

Oh, Stackhouse? Stackhouse. Yeah, just – He's still out on a field somewhere just two gapping. Yes. So when I was watching Stackhousehouse especially early in the season i was watching mike allen i'm like dude he can't get off the ball like i was like why is he so slow he's always the last one out of his stance he's not pinning his ears back at all whatsoever i mean does he just

not have a a sense for pass? Like what's going on here? And so I sort of went into this week when we were watching edge rushers, like I don't think I'm going to like Mikel Williams. And I started to watch him a little bit more, put him under a microscope, and I did appreciate him more. Now, I don't deny the things that you are saying about him. The pass rush win rate is low. The overall pass rush ac rate is low the overall pass rush acumen is low he just doesn't think about it a lot but i will say this i don't mean

to make this conversation sound like the trayvon walker conversation because i i'm not there and i'm not here to do that i don't really want the parallels to exist between these two guys although they might bleed over a little bit but i'm not here to do that it's gonna happen georgia did play him out of what i think his best position is he played a lot of four-eye defensive end like he played a lot as a inside shade of the offensive tackle you defend the run first and then like pass rush is something that sort of the linebackers do behind you and maybe maybe some of the speed guys that are stand up outside linebackers on the outside of the of the box. So with him, what I really had to look at last year was what is he like as a run defender? And he is strong.

Oh, yeah. He's got long arms. I mean, when teams tried to pin tight ends against him it was embarrassing at times even in that alabama game in that alabama game they tried to throw like multiple tight ends at him and he would just be like nope and he just the full arm extension the tight end is like doing a cat cow you know like live on the rep because i think that's the right yoga move or whatever it is like the back is just completely arched and off balance so he is a really good run defender cat cow i gotta delete that from my history or i don't have a wife that's gonna be

like what's going on here i swear we were were talking about Mike L. Williams against tight end. You just get more into yoga. You just get more into yoga. I swear, babe, we were just talking about George's head direction. I got to pull up Ultimate and tap into Mike L. Williams against tight end. No, see, babe? This is what we were trying to show. Yeah, it's right here.

So I think he's a really good run defender but the reason why i like him more is because the last week of the year or the last game that they played a year against florida state i get it florida state didn't really have anything to play for they didn't really have their a team out there but they were putting my kel in the situation where i think that he's actually going to play at the nfl level and that is a true outside linebacker, like a true edge, not like a four, three tight formation defensive end to hold the run. They let him pin his ears a little back, pin his ears back a little bit as a pass rusher.

And he earned an elite pass rush grade that game. He had a lot of good pressures and he was balling out. And I think when you combine the long arms, the run defense, the reliability of holding the line of scrimmage with lightning fast and violent hands and that explosive first step that he has, you go, okay, I believe in it. other players in this class who I have ranked below him who right now if I gotta go get a player to be a pass rusher for me in the NFL tomorrow they're just better they're better but this is a projection thing for Mikel and I see kind of what people are talking about not enough for him to be this oh yeah should be the number one overall pick type of a guy in fact I don't even have him as a top edge rusher in this class but i do see the potential there for him i'm excited for him to not play as much as a again a a tight front defensive end and more as an outside linebacker

this year because i do think the kid's really talented there's no doubt he's talented and the people that like him will tell you you know like hey this is what you have to project the people that don't will lean a little bit more on my side or worse it's probably somewhere in the middle when all is said and done i think at the end of the if he keeps taking the next steps um obviously the talent and the size going back to what sets a floor is really really important so georgia's not trying to crank out first rounders. They're trying to win championships and they don't really, they don't, if you don't like it, you could leave.

And they happen to, you know, by proxy. They do both. They find a way to do both. So number five for me is Abdul Carter from Penn State. Okay. Where's he for you? Three. Okay.

All right. All right. So we're a little out of order, but at least we're on the same page here. I don't know where Penn State's getting these dudes, man. A cloning lab? I mean. Shit, man. What's happening?

How do you go from Micah Parsons to Chop Robinson and Adisa Isaac to now like, oh, yeah, we'll just put Abdul Carter here on the edge? Why aren't they winning the Big Ten? Penn State should be winning the Big Ten at some point. Anyways, that's another conversation. One of the craziest strength and conditioning programs in the country and a hotbed for one of the best athletes that you can, some of the best athletes that you'll find basically in every single draft class.

That's what Penn State feels like at this point. So Abdul Carter, he's a true junior going into this season. Six foot three, 260 pounds. And if you go, Trevor, that's a little bit lighter. You'd be correct. 32nd percentile in height, 39th percentile in weight. The thing about Abdul Carter is he was an off-ball linebacker over the last two years. Yeah.

They're moving him to edge so he has gained a little bit of weight to play on the edge a little bit more former four-star linebacker recruit also played power forward on the basketball team by the way um and i read this too arrived at penn state weighing 205 pounds. Started the 2022 season, which was his first season, at 235. Then he was 248. Now he's listed at 259. So it's been a gradual increase in weight, and I think his body type holds it really, really well. Connor, the first step is nuts. There is a rep.

I was watching the maryland game yeah and and it's like it's it's it's i i think it's like his sixth rep of the game i i literally like i like completely sat back in my seat and i was like what is this is giz kids an alien it's one of the best first steps i've ever seen for an edge rusher and And even in the limited amount of time, because I only, I don't know how, I don't know how you did this film review, but I only watched his reps at edge last year. Yeah, me too. I filtered it.

I filtered all the off ball stuff out. I only watched the edge rush stuff. So sure. Not as big of a sample size, but 89.0 pass rush grade, 86.5 pass rush grade on true pass sets, 23.9 pass rush win percentage, 98th percentile. This dude wins as one of the best athletes that you're going to see. He is such a gifted athlete in that regard. He's got long arms to him. He's got a gifted athlete in that regard. He's got long arms to him. He's got a great build for a three, four outside linebacker standup type of a player.

And that first step is sometimes so devastating that offensive tackles don't even have a prayer. He combines that with really good flexibility, really good bend, fast arms as well. Now there's a lot of stuff that he needs to work on, right? He's got a little bit of a false step and how he gets off the line of scrimmage because he's not used to being a full-time edge rusher he's slow to get to his counters just because he normally wins with athleticism as a blitzing linebacker um he's he lacks like an overall i think pass rush bag if you will yeah he's got to get a lot more precise with his hands and obviously he's not going to be somebody who's going to really hold the line of scrimmage and run defense for you but if you need somebody to pin their ears back on third and long and get after the quarterback there ain't many in the

country if any that are going to be able to do it faster than dual carter does so he is a speed demon you obviously got him at three i got him at five what'd you think about i love him i mean just a little over 100 pass rush snaps last year, and he had 28 pressures. So explosive, bendy, flexible, dips the shoulder, can rip around the corner, slips through gaps, plays skinny. He's working on a spin move. The range in the run game, when he strikes ball carriers, he strikes. Like there's purpose behind the way he strikes. And you nailed it, Trevor.

The pass rush plan is raw. It's built around speed. I think he can be more violent against running backs and tight ends helping in pass pro. He's got to develop an inside counter move as a full-time pass rusher because he's going to win so much with his speed. Dude. That when tackles start to cheat out, he can start to counter in. If he opens that door it's over dude if he can develop like a spin or even like a cross chop like you said it's over man if this dude can get

two or three steps in and the offensive tackle is just praying that he could somehow get to the landmark and then a dual carter hits him with a little cross chop it's over he's too fast he is just he is too fast. Yeah, he's three for me because I am, you know, I had some questions about Michael Williams and his projection a little more hazy. I am fully throwing my hand on the table here and betting Abdul Carter's projection is going to be a home run. Like, I really think he's going to be a stud at full-time edge you you are you are

currently talking to a co-host who has a abdul carter number one overall draft in the 2025 nfl draft ticket in you probably wouldn't have to do this podcast anymore if that hits but you would for fun no i'll tell you i'll tell you the the mason graham ticket is the one that if it hits both of us are out of this place we're out of here we're doing the next show later it's from the yacht man hope you like chat gpt scouting scouting adios oh fan duo is sleeping so hard on mason graham like two weeks ago they've since wised up because of course they listen they listen to the show. Shout out to everybody. Yeah, shout out. But, you know, we'll take your money for the initial odds that you had on.

Cost of doing business. Man. Who did you have before? So I have Princely Uman Mielin. Whoa, those Florida roots stock up. Do you have him in your top 10? No, I had him at 11. Okay, all right so

i i princely umami ellen from florida is an enigma like there there's there's so much sort of projection here with him because i think that his game does lack polish in a lot of ways but it also it's also filled with so much eye popping yeah what in the world did i just see in the way that he's winning so he is a redshirt senior i mentioned you know connor calls out the florida roots in me he's no longer at the university of florida he was now he is at so he's going to be playing at ole miss this year i've got him listed at six foot three and a half which is 45th percentile uh 258 pounds which which is 35th percentile. The Twitch man, it's pretty special from him. It really is. I think that this is a guy who makes it very, very difficult to stay

in front of him. And you can see that by 88.9 pass or swing percentage, 90.0 pass or swing percentage on true pass sets, so even better better and then a 20.7 pass rush win percentage which is 95th percentile this is somebody who he we talk about abdul carter needing to develop sort of like a cross face element of pass rushing oman mielen already does this in an extremely high level. Like he'll attack the outside shoulder with a really, with really good burst, a really nice long arm, a spin move, but he'll also then set you up to be able to hit you with a little hesitation, get a little cross chop on you, just put the foot in the ground and just immediately start to go inside as well.

He'll attack both shoulders with a lot of twitch. I think that's the thing that stands out to me the most. When you have true twitch, that stop and start ability to be able to get from one gap to the other, the ability to be able to attack one shoulder to the other, that to me is extremely impressive because that is so tough to teach if you could teach it at all whatsoever. A lot of times it's just God-given natural athleticism. So he's got the long arms. He's got the change of direction. He's got the long arms. He's got the change of direction. He's got the first step explosiveness. He's got the speed when in pursuit to be able to catch ball carriers from the backside when he's left unblocked on zone blocking plays.

He is somebody who the highs are really there for him. Now, the issues with Umad Mialan are, I think, issues that would hinder him from being a productive pro and that is technically I still think he needs a lot of work the footwork could absolutely be cleaned up like there are some times when his feet aren't even pointed upfield when the ball is snapped there are times when he's bursting off of the back foot and the back foot again like the toes aren't even pointed towards like the backfield and it's like all right if you cleaned up your footwork, if you didn't give me a false step, if you launched off of the front foot, you'd be even faster. You'd threaten the outside shoulder

even more than you do now. He feels erratic and a little bit out of control at times. He's got to be more consistent on a snap to snap basis. But damn, as a potential pass rush specialist, I feel like his ability and his build reminded me of Ezekiel Onza. And Onza was picked, I think, fifth overall many, many years ago. And Onza was a little bit of a hot and cold guy, but there was one year when, actually, there were two years where Onza had more than double-digit sacks. Now, it wasn't nearly consistent after that, but that's kind of what I see could be the case with Prince Leumon Miellon.

It's like one year, this dude might be a monster and might have double-digit sacks for you in the NFL. In other years, all right, maybe it's blocked up a little bit better. It's not nearly as consistent. But the type of athlete that he is and the build that he has with the long arms and the twitch man, that's the kind of player that he reminded me of. So, yeah, I got him at number four here.

He was an interesting watch because there's a lot of great things there like you said when you just look at the build i mean he as a stand-up rusher he knows how to use his speed off the edge he's long he's quick when they use him on a wider alignment he can convert some speed to power like he gets that longer takeoff runway and you see some speed to power and i thought he was very instinctive and rangy as a run defender yeah he he just knows how to find the ball carrier and it's really from pre-snap awareness i'd like to see the hands strike with more force i'd like to see him learn how to utilize his length to actually counter throughout reps and i thought the lack of power nfl caliber wise was noticeable against the lsu guys both tackles were able to stall his rush a lot and that's what you're gonna see at the next

level you know so but it really interesting player that um that i was excited about last year and now he gets another year to build off that uh so yeah there that's who i got it for oh jack sawyer i jack sawyer at four all right let's talk about sawyer what do you like about i got him at seven so not too far behind i think we'll probably see him a little bit similar you just might be a little bit higher on the pass rush but let's hear about him sawyer six four and a quarter 265 he he is a jack of all trades kind of guy i mean full pun intended you like that 10 tackles for loss six and a half sacks last year. Former five star.

He was the top rated player in Ohio in his recruiting class. Obviously, Ohio, a great football state. Also played some quarterback in high school. All academic Big Ten in 2023 and an OSU scholar athlete. I just really great density, like the build for the position. He is well rounded with his weight and it's an NFL body. Fundamentally, fundamentally sound player. It's him and Tui Maloal.

I really see the coached up hand usage, which once again, the Soho State, it's not shocking, but it's, it's still really fun to watch after you go through a lot of college pass rushers, advanced eye discipline. And he drives through hips with wrap-up tackles. He's a great tackler. Yes. He is a phenomenal tackler.

He's got strength. He's got form. He has really good eye discipline in the backfield. He doesn't overreact to a lot of plays. He's a leverage winner. He drives blockers backwards, both when rushing the passer and when defending the run sets a hard edge against the run once again great pre-snap iq i think the overall speed

and re-acceleration throughout reps is not where you want it to be all the time and that what might that might ultimately hold him back from being one of the top edge rushers in this class i thought he struggled against bl Fisher when they played Notre Dame. Like I said, Tui Maloel got a lot of reps against Alt. And Fisher really kept Sawyer in check. But man, you want to talk about the premium high floor guy of this group. I think Sawyer could play on the edge today in the NFL on first and second downs. I'd like to see him take off a little bit more as a pass rusher

and not just be a power effort guy. Yeah. But I think he's, in my opinion, probably the best run defender of the group. And I think that there is a floor as a pass rusher that I'm completely fine with. So I think Sawyer is a damn good prospect. I do too. I like him. He's just an NFL player, man.

You watch his film and you go, yep, he'll play in the league for as long as he's healthy. And like you said, I don't know if it's going to be at a high clip when it comes to being a pass rusher. Great number two. That's a really, I think a really good play. If he's your number two, you're living good. Yes, yes, yes. If he is your number two edge rusher, you are absolutely living good. But he's somebody who, you know, I think like back of the second round is his floor, man. I mean, there's no way he gets past the second round. He's too easy to envision as a plug and play type of a guy. So I thought that the way that you explained it, very similar to how I see it, we see the player similarly. I wish there was a little bit more

pass rush used there for him. I just don't know how much that's ever going to be in the cards, but it doesn't really change the fact that he can still win with his hands in even better ways than he does now. And I think that in and of itself is going to be an improved pass rush profile when he gets to the NFL level. So yeah, second rounder at worst, it feels like, with Jack Sawyer. And, yeah, got him at seven. Okay, I had him at four, and Abdul Carter was my three. Okay, so I think we only have two players left. Oh, yeah, who did you add?

Oh, you had Mike Hill at two. Because I had Mike Hill at two, yes. Okay, drum roll. I think I know where you're going here at three, but it's not guaranteed. I think you have a trick up your sleeve. No, I'm not going crazy off the wall. Oh, never mind. Okay, go ahead.

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going crazy off the wall. We have two players left, right? We have James Pierce Jr. and we have Nick Scowart, right? Okay, all right. Who do you have at number one nick scoward so do i wow i i thought pierce was at three for you that's what i was thinking yeah this is this is probably the shocker of summer scouting for the audience right i am i am shocked cotton that we actually came up with i mean he's a good football player so i don't i'm not surprised that you see him as a good football player but i am surprised that we both

ended up with scowards and given how different this edge rich group is when you had abdul carter at three i was like he's got pierce at one i'm like he's got he's got pierce as the type of player we're gonna have a little bit of a debate here, but, um, so you have James Pierce jr. At number two, I have him at number three edge rusher from Tennessee. I'll let you start with this one. I can start with Scowerton, but let's go back and forth talking about James Pierce jr. What do you like about him? What do you say to him? There's a ton to like, this is a guy that had 52 pressures last year, a former five star. I mean, he finished last year with a 21.8% pass rush. Win rate,

explosive loose can time and jump the snap rush is standing up. And with his hand in the dirty place fast, he just, everything he does, he plays with speed. Yep. I think he has plus pound for pound strength. Now keep in mind what that means is James Pierce,

the strongest edge rusher in this class. No, he's 243 strength. Now, keep in mind what that means. Is James Pierce the strongest edge rusher in this class? No. He's 243 pounds, maybe. Maybe. But for his weight, he is strong, which gives me hope that when he gains more weight, it'll really end up in a great place. He's athletic enough to drop in coverage and play in space.

It's jarring when you watch it. This is one of the best pass rushers in college football and then they have him drop and he could fly sideline to sideline he can cover a little bit it's crazy there is zero fear in this guy's game of being a lightweight in the heavyweight arena like he knows it he's like yeah i might be 240 pounds but i don't really care that you're 315. I'm just like, I'm here just like you are. He wins against tackles on an island in a variety of ways. You see him win with speed. He's got the arm over working. He can cross their face.

There's a lot of variety in how he wins. Why he's not number one for me. The lack of mass shows up at times, And I thought it showed up against Alabama. Now he had a strip sack in that game. I get it, but I'm talking about the entirety of the game, rushing the passer, the spin move and the spin counter lacks speed and fluidity.

It's not the spin move, you know, that we all highlight real. It feels like it's just missing being in sync with this whole body. Now, if he figures that out this offseason into this year, it's going to be a nightmare because he's got the natural athletic tools to figure it out. He's got to arrive with more force when they use him on stunts. When they have him loop, like arrive with that force that you play with as a, as a standard edge rusher. He's got to be careful slipping under on outside runs.

He's always been the most athletic guy in the world, wherever he's been, probably since he was in peewee football, he's always been the most athletic guy. He likes to slip under on outside runs and you cannot do that in the NFL. You really can't do it in the sec. You have to set a hard edge. He pays for it in the sec. It gets,

it gets caught. Yes. It gets caught. You need to set a hard edge and force that runner to the outside. And he loves to slip under and chase the big play. It's. And I, I think part of it is because he loves the big play and he's,

he's talented enough to hit the big play. And then the other part of it is because he loves the big play and he's he's talented enough to hit the big play and the other part of it is trevor when you're 240 pounds and you're trying to set the edge against 320 pounds it ain't that easy all the time right so pierce is a freakish player a freakish player but there were limitations that led him to being number two for me and not number one yeah yeah i so i have him at number three and if I'm going to be honest with you, I talked about there being sort of like tiers and buckets for these edge rushers. I would have Scowerton and Williams in like tier one.

Okay. And then I would have Pierce, Oman Mielin, Abdul Carter sort of in this like speed rush tier two, and then Landon Jackson, Jack Sawyer, JT to him low out. That's like the tier three. So that's how I have these guys ranked. But to me, they're in these different buckets. So I would tell you that I don't even have Pierce in the same tier as Michael Williams and with Nick Scowerton. And a lot of it kind of comes through some of the negatives that you highlighted because the positives are there, man. I mean, like extremely fast first step, very twitched up player, great change of

direction. Like all of that is, is very tough to match, but the mentality is something that does worry me here. He is a big play chaser. And obviously that has come to success in a lot of ways production was bullying on bad competition. His best grades at pass rushing, Virginia, Texas A&M, Iowa. I didn't watch the Virginia game, so I'm not sure there. But the Texas A&M game, he is beating up on Texas A&M's right tackle who earned a 46.5 pass blocking grade on the entire season. Not just the game that he went up against James Pierce Jr. So not a great pass protector.

Iowa's entire passing game is horrendous. And like the quarterback- Everybody feasted. I mean, he's begging to get sacked like every single play. And so the heavy win rates against those guys, it's just very clearly not NFL competition. You have to keep that in mind. So there's good things that James Pierce Jr. does.

But then you take that big play hunting mentality to the run game. And there were plenty of plays that I watch where I'm like you can't do that I mean you hold the edge there the linebacker probably scrapes over or the safety comes down and it's probably a two-yard game for the running back and instead it's a 12-yard game because you had no interest in setting the edge you just wanted to undercut where the offensive lineman was and you got reached and like that's the freelancing that he cannot do in the league like I don't care if you're even just a pastor specialist like you you're not going to

get on the field enough at that point so Pierce is incredibly talented obviously I have him number three like I I feel like we're saying negative things about James Pierce Jr. but I'm only saying them because a lot of people talk about him as a potential like number one overall pick and the best defensive player and the best edge rusher I can't get there because of how much of a liability he is against the run even with pound for pound him being a pretty strong player the pass for stuff is special but you remember Randy Gregory when he was coming down in Nebraska just this like long twitchy explosive player he reminded me of what randy gregory was like and randy gregory got he he got first round hype and you know he failed a drug test when he was at the combine so then he went he's going in the first

round without the off field one dude he's going top 15 yeah and i don't know if pierce is going to go top 15 or not but like to me, that's the same type of player and the comp that I have right now. These are long, skinny, twitchy, explosive pass rushers that Gregory was from Nebraska and James Pierce Jr. is from Tennessee this year. So Pierce Jr., what we're looking for from you, we know you can get after the passer.

Hold the line of scrimmage. Be a more reliable. Even if you're getting pushed back a little bit, be a more reliable run defender. Because if I think I can get that from you, there's so much else to like from him. Maybe you can pack a couple extra pounds on him too when he gets to the NFL.

But yeah, so that's why I had him at three. I mean, we see it eye to eye. There's things to just love. Yes, truly. But if you, like once again you open the show hinting at this if you're looking for you know miles garrett von miller nick bosa we're not there yet can we get there we can get there but we're just not there right now right but number one i mean it's just an absolute joy of a football player unit an absolute tank an absolute tank and nick scowerton yeah who

this is definitely my recent big 10 bias getting back from indy oh did you talk did you talk to him oh no no yeah he's an m now right i wish he stayed at purdue just because to see him and uh thenamin the safety in the same defense for purdue who really you know ryan walters former safety built the great defense of illinois it would have been really great for purdue but the game is the game a and m yeah i think they're paying nfl salaries over there a and m's got bags to get there paying n salaries. Scowerton earned that with what he did last year. But what a story, Trevor, honestly. What a story. He is a really good player.

Purdue had him listed. Well, Texas A&M, Purdue, whatever. They had him listed at 6'4", 280 pounds. Do you have anything different for him? No, that's what I got. And I don't think they have any reason to lie on this one no i mean you might see him at the combine for testing come in at 270 so he could fly around but like yeah it's a big boy you look at his frame and again like the reason why i've got

him edge one is because not only is he a good athlete not only is a good football player like he's big enough for the league six foot four two what you want that's 58th percentile and 84th percentile so he also gives you that finesse as a big man that not a lot of these other guys do with that size i see him as a four three defensive end you know four to five technique type of a player who can really go head up against offensive tackles in the league um former four-star defensive lineman uh also played basketball in high school committed to produce he played 10 games of true freshman when he was at purdue as a sophomore he led the big 10 conference with 10 sacks and 50 tackles

transferred to a&m this past offseason um really good pff numbers really good pff numbers 91.0 pass rush grade 91.8 pass rush grade on true pass sets 21.2% pass rush win percentage, 77.0 run defense grade, but then also an 8.2% run stop percentage, which was 76 percentile. Some strength and weaknesses for him. Well, first of all, I think that we should, we should set up his style. Purdue, Purdue plays in, they're like one of the last teams ever that I feel like does this. They play in a true 3-4. Like, first down, second down, third down, they're playing three down linemen in like a tight alignment, so like a true nose and two 4-eye defensive ends.

And then it's just two angled, wide outside linebackers and then two middle linebackers right behind them. It is just just it's the textbook three four and i feel like nobody plays this anymore because there are so many teams that have to get speed on the field exactly you're playing some sort of like nickel a three three five variation right you're playing like a three three five something like that like even if you like the alignment of the three down lineman, you're normally, like you said, playing a 3-3-5. You don't see four linebackers out there.

And he's just playing like it's just this true 3-4 front. And sometimes they'll even bare front it. Sometimes the safety will come down. It's like you got seven guys on the line of scrimmage. Big 10 football, baby. Real men football. I mean, just some bears going up against bears in the trenches. True throwback style there.

So he carries 280 pounds extremely well. And for Scowerton being 280, you might say, oh, he must be one of those four-eye technique defensive ends. He's not. He's one of the stand-up outside linebackers which just hints at how good of a finesse game he has for his size um he's something i like is that he's got experience playing both right and left side of the off of the line um they would switch him all the time so it's not like he had like one side that he was a specialist he had like

has to burst off of this foot or this angle or whatever. He is side versatile, can play on the left and the right side. He's got a lot of pass rush moves already, which I love. Now, I'll set it up by saying this. Because of the true three-four front, Scowerton gets to be angled at the quarterback to where his path to the quarterback is a straight line. It's not like he's coming off the edge as a five-tech defensive end where he's got to bend around the offensive tackle's shoulder immediately. Where he is aligned, the goal of that, and it is successful in doing so, is you force the offensive tackle to kick out very far to come meet you. And when that happens, they often then relinquish the distance between

them and the offensive guard. So there's not a lot of help inside. So Scowerton has become really great at not just being a bull rusher, but also having inside moves. You saw the cross chop from him. You saw the spin move from him. You saw him just the little hesitation and getting across the face, the little, even if it's him just the little hesitation and getting across the face, the little, even if it's not a cross chop, just getting across the face and hitting him with an inside rip move. Like he is really good at attacking on the inside, but you do have to give it some context and say it is a little bit easier for him given the fact that that is his alignment, but still big size.

He's able to get skinny in between blockers, which is super impressive as well um connor honestly the thing that held me back from just like loving him is i think he could even play a little bit more violent right i think he could play with even a little bit more power got heavy hands no he's he's got them but he needs to use them more. Right. And so that's how I saw him, man. But this is somebody who is a first round edge rusher type in build, in success, in grades. I like Nick Scowerton a lot. You know what I loved about him? He was one of the rare guys that I saw give Ursary some problems against Minnesota.

Yeah. Like that meant something to me. Not a lot of people can get around ariante ursery and i thought scowerton gave him plenty of problems in their 2023 matchup it's pretty twitchy for his weight too yes you're just not supposed to have that lateral agility at 280 pounds plays with great effort and hustle he's only 20 years old on draft night can you believe that 20 years old yeah i mean this is a really young player that he actually won't turn 20 until the end of his first nfl training camp what do you he's gonna be 19 on draft night um no he'll be no 21 sorry 21 okay he turns 20 holy cow no he turns 20 he's not braylon allen

he turns 20 at the end of august so he will literally be a 20 year old in nfl training camp what do you expect from him with a and m like do you think this is the type of program that's just gonna let him like do whatever the hell you want kind of situation i don't know because we talked about this we talked about this on last week's episode and funny enough we talked about it with shamar turner who i i did not watch for this i was about to watch him for edge rushers and then i was reading up on him and it's like oh they're moving him in the interior yeah i left him at an interior d line because they're gonna play a real defense this year and that's the thing i i don't know what that real defense for a and m is gonna look like with him i. I think it's going to be more of a,

well, actually, is A&M playing a 3-4? What are they playing? That's what I need to tap into is how they're going to line this thing up because right now A&M has my number one edge player and my number five interior D-line in the same unit. It's insane. So it looks like they are playing a 3-4. Turner's going to play DT, so so he's gonna play as like the three tech and then Scowerton's probably gonna play as like the head

up four or five technique defensive end yeah they're gonna be they're gonna be fun to watch that so I so I do like that though I think that that'll round out his scouting profile for sure so I hope that that is how they use him well if you're getting a kid like that to come over after having a phenomenal year in Ryan Walters defense, you can't like the money is what matters, but you also got to have a plan for the kid to be a top 10 pick. Right. Right.

Cause yeah. Cause he does that have, he does have that to him. As I was doing some, you know, comp research, Z'Darrius Smith is the comp that i came up with him zedarius i didn't realize how big zedarius was zedarius listed at six foot four 275 pounds which i think

kind of could be the range of what scowerton is so when zedarius got signed from baltimore to green bay most of his production like sack production was rushing as a standup interior rusher. And Scowerton has a lot of that too. That's a great call by you. Yeah. I think stylistically, once I saw Z'Darrius Smith's height and weight, I went,

hold on a second. Like the style kind of makes sense at the couple of different spots that Z'Darrius has been at. Yeah. So that was, that was somebody who he came to mind and think about how good Z'Darrius has been over the last couple of years. I'm reading his pass rush grades right now from 2019 to 2023 89.8 86.0 75.0 but he didn't

play a lot that season that was a 2021 season so you don't even count that one 84.7 87.4 the last year as well so this is somebody who I think is is a is a pretty good one for Scowerton to be able to look up to body size stylistically and the success that you would want to have. Yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense. That's a great comp. There we go. All right. Top 10 edge rushers. List off your top 10 edge rushers if you don't mind.

Yeah. Number 10 for me was Ja Joyner from Minnesota. Nine was Landon Jackson from Arkansas. Eight was JT Tuohy Maloau from Ohio State. Seven was Ashton Jalati from Louisville. Six was Kamen Rucker from UNC. Five was Mike Kale Williams from Georgia. Four was Jack Sawyer from Ohio State.

Three was Abdul Carter from Penn State. Two was James Pierce Jr. from Tennessee. And number one was Nick Scowerton, who has now transferred from Purdue to Texas A&M. So number 10 for me was Kamon Rucker from North Carolina. Nine, Patrick Payton from Florida State. Eight, JT Tuimaloa from Ohio State. Seven was Jack Sawyer from Ohio State. Six, Landon Jackson from Arkansas. Five, Abdul Carter from Penn State. Four, Princely Uman Miellon from Florida, three James Pierce Jr. from Tennessee, two Mike L. Williams from Georgia, and number one Nick Scowerton, as you mentioned, was at Purdue.

Now he is at Texas A&M. Just to shout out a couple of names that did not make the list that I think are worth the shout out. Antoine Powell Ryland, who started at Florida himself. He's been at Virginia Tech the last two seasons. He is still at Virginia Tech. I like him, man. Really like his hand usage. You brought up Mo Kamara earlier in the show. Mo Kamara was kind of an early comp that I had for Antoine Powell Ryland because Powell Ryland's listed at 6'2", 242 pounds. He might be a shade under 6'2", but sort of that

smaller player, but plays with a lot of effort, plays with really good hand usage. I think Kamara might've been a little bit stronger than Powell Ryland was, but like the hand usage there, I think there's something interesting there. And then Deny Dennis Sutton is the other Penn State edge rusher, is somebody that I watched. Former five-star, I don't know where they're getting these dudes. Six foot five, 272 pounds. He was one of the highest recruits that was in the 2022 recruiting class. He played football. He played basketball. He ran track as a sprinter at 6'5", 260-ish pounds as a high schooler.

Just insane athleticism, but he doesn't really know what he's doing yet. So you just got to keep that in mind with him. This year is obviously an important year for him because he'll be starting for the first time and he'll get some much-needed reps because his tape is very green right now. A couple guys that I watched that didn't make the cut on today's show, but Maurice Westmoreland, the edge at UTEP, transferred from Kilgore College.

He's 6'2", 235, stand-up rushbacker, creates great angles, twitched up. Speed around the corner. Works the arm over. He's just undersized. Play strength and instincts are a little underdeveloped right now. Colin Oliver from Oklahoma State. Another guy, 6'2", 235.

He's an interesting one. Team captain last year. He kind of slithers and slips under blocks. Looks really good at times playing in space. Loose, flexible rusher, quick feet. You know, he just gets erased by power when guys get hands on him. That's going to be his problem in the front seven. I want to make sure we didn't miss anyone.

I mentioned this guy on last summer scouting. And he returned to school. And I'm excited about him again more as maybe a priority udfa sixth seventh round kind of pick david walker from central arkansas i saw jim nagy tweeted up a cut up of him the other day so he's on the senior bowl radar which is a really good sign for david walker he's 6-1-2-62 walker over the sticks one 262 And he's pretty, and he's pretty quick. All right. The last two years,

Walker has 20 and a half sacks and 39 TFLs. Jeez. I don't really know why he's still at central Arkansas because he, let's just say he is out. He's graduated from the FCS. Good for him. If he wants to stay, he's a guy that you need in the all-star circuit.

You need it. You got to see him against some of these, you need in the all-star circuit you need it you gotta see him against some of these you know higher end tackles you know other guys on our radar conor o'toole former converted wide receiver at utah uh jordan birch returned to oregon really big edge player you know there's a couple interesting guys that you just got to see more tape on like Gabe Ackes from Illinois at a great freshman season. I'd like to see him bounce back this year. I feel like every year we talk about Steve Linton. He's played for every school at this point. He's now at Baylor.

See what he can do as well. Wait, Steve Linton still in college. He's still in college, Syracuse, Texas tech. Now Baylor. All right.

I think it's a sixth year. Yeah. I mean, it has to be. Yeah. They're called doctors. Derek, Texas Tech, now Baylor. I think it's the sixth year. Yeah, I mean, it has to be. Yeah, they're called Doctors. Derek Moore is... Dr. Linton. That's a great nickname.

Actually, we're calling him that. That's a great... That's the nickname for the whole scouting process. We're calling him Dr. Linton. Dr. Linton. Everybody's going to raise an eyebrow at that. When you tell them why... Yeah, we're calling him Dr. Linton. It's like the guy on uh what is it utah the tight end

uh kuthi yeah kuthi yeah dr kuthi oh that's phd kuthi that's the good stuff kuthi esquired so really that's it oh that's the good stuff um Derek Moore is another one from Michigan a former five-star uh incredibly high recruit um he's somebody that they're very excited about we just haven't seen a ton from him but he'll be starting this year so he's another one that we that we wanted to shout out we would love to hear from you guys as well you guys watch college football you're a fan of the NFL draft we know that you got thoughts on edge rushers too let us know best way to do that youtube comment section youtube.com backslash at nfl stock exchange uh give us if you've got thoughts on a singular prospect that we talked about here we'd love

to hear them we'd love to go back and forth with you tell you more of our thoughts uh elaborate a little bit more maybe um just kind of hear new perspectives from everybody that would be nice if you got rankings, you guys have done this throughout the Summer Scouting Series, which I've loved. I've loved when you guys get in the comments, you go like, hey, here's how I rank them. This is how I got these guys shaken out.

I think that forms a lot of really fun conversations as well, not just between us, but between the listeners. It's always fun when we get to read you guys going back and forth and having some fun conversations of what you think of these guys. You can also, if you're listening to audio only, hit us up on and instagram at tampa bay trey at connor j rogers um but he got anything else before we get we get out of here oh i do want to say we're switching it up so normally in the in the progression of things like linebacker would be next but connor's doing some things with moving and and i'm gonna be away for a couple of days. So we're going to have like an extended break in like a week and we're not going to be gone for

too long, but we want to give you corners next week because that's the position that everybody's going to want to talk about. We got a guy who could potentially like go into top five, top three, number one overall, he's getting hyped for it. So we want to talk about corners next week. So we'll do corners next week. Then we'll get to linebackers after that then safeties and then it'll be the final big board episode the way too early mock draft and then college football and the nfl will be here so now got anything else before we get out of here no that sums it up real well um you know pumped up to keep this thing going we got a strong group next week this edge class was great it really was it was a lot of fun to watch felt never ending um so we we have a really good baseline built for the season

right now as we keep this thing rolling i just realized you have a grimace in the background of uh of your shots now for he's got he's got a meth helmet on i had to get like the the ice cream helmet like i didn't get go to the park and get the ice cream helmet. Oh, wait, the Dippin' Dots helmet? Like, you know, they put ice cream in the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the Sunday helmet. I ordered one online to put on my stuffed Grimace. Oh, so you didn't even get the ice cream.

No. And I was at Citi Field Monday night. But, you know, there's only so much room. Check this out, by the way. Shout out to my buddy. He had his one-year-old's first birthday party. Shout out. They had a Mr. Softee truck come to the party.

Whoa! You know when you get Mr. Softee and, like, Mr. Softee is, you know, he's up the prices these days. And they give you, like, a good cone. Sure. This guy, since he was a catered Mr. Softee, he gave me, like, three gallons of vanilla ice cream. He built the cone and then put like the cone in a bucket.

I never had more ice cream in my life. That was Saturday. So by the time I went to Citi Field Monday, I just didn't have it in me. God damn. I didn't after the chicken tenders. But yeah. To get that at a kid's birthday party is an insane flex.

Right? It's the flex in the century that is truly the flex in the century phenomenal so are you guys for listening to the show we appreciate you uh we will be back next week with the cornerback episode i'm trevor that's connor thank you guys so much for watching listening to the nfl stock exchange podcast we'll see you next Thank you.