NFL Stock Exchange: An NFL Draft Podcast - 265. Ranking 2025 NFL Draft Linebackers (Summer Scouting)

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

Trevor Sikkema and Connor Rogers continue their Summer Scouting Series and coverage of the 2025 NFL Draft by ranking the draft-eligible linebackers for the 2025 NFL Draft. The two bring you each of their top 8s with strengths, weaknesses, player comps and projections

Welcome to the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. In this episode, we've only got two episodes left for the summer scouting series. And today we're talking about off-ball linebackers. We're giving you our top eight as the college football season is here. We're wrapping this bad boy up. I'm so excited to get to these last couple of positions and talk about these guys. I'm Trevor Sikama. With me, as always, is Connor Rogers.

Let's ring the bell. Welcome to the opening bell of the NFL Stock Exchange Podcast. I'm Trevor Sikma. The man in the incredible shirt next to me is the one and only Connor Rodgers. Good to be back with you guys. Thanks for tuning in. We know that we're a little late here, but we had to move some things around because, you know, it's two times a week time. You know, we're back to two times a week, so we had to get these two episodes in the same week. We recorded this one a little bit earlier,

but it's just a lot of moving parts. All we're here to say is that we're happy to be back. We're finishing out the Summer Scouting Series with linebackers today. Well, we got one more episode. We are finishing it out this week. Linebackers today. Safeties is the last group that we have later this week. But Connor, how you doing, my friend?

I'm good, man. We've been chasing the Catalina wine mixer. That's why we've been down and out for a little bit. It's good to be back. We've still been grinding tape. Don't ever, just because we're not releasing episodes, these linebackers and eventually safeties, our last position group, we are absolutely grinding the tape.

I'm good, dude. I'm excited. You could tell that I'm going back to work again because I'm getting dressed in the morning. Rather than like all the other summer episodes we did, I'd have on a T-shirt that I'm not going to say I slept in, but it's probably in the couch on my office. My office couch. It just pulled it up and I'm like, man, if I spray that twice with wrinkle release, it'll look presentable on a computer camera. And I'm back to work, which is good.

Good for every reason. And it helps that I'm actually getting dressed. Let me ask you something before we do linebackers. Yes. Are you somebody that, and this is good. I feel like this could apply to where you live. Do you back into a parking space routinely, or do you just pull in? So if we're talking a regular parking lot, parking space, I just do a regular pulling.

Okay. Or do you go home? Are you back in at home? Well, technically, I park in the street, so I've either got a parallel park or I got to go forward and back up. You're normal. I'm just a little bit of tech. Now that I've been in the car every day again and I do drive most days.

But when I'm on summer vacation, like there's plenty of days where I, you know, I don't go very far. Yes. Everybody's just in my building, which is this is my last NFL SE actually in this in this apartment. So my studio is different going forward. I just realized that in my building, which is mostly older people. And even a little bit where I work sometimes I get caught behind people backing into spots for no reason all the time. They just, and they're not, the problem is in my building. They're not good at it at all.

They're older and they're really slow when they park. So they, they take about four minutes to think they angled it right. And then it's wrong. Yeah. And I know I sound like a really impatient New York asshole and I get it, but I just think this is a phenomenon that's out of control. I don't understand the benefit of backing into the spot.

Just pull in and back out. Everyone's got these rear view cameras. Like there's no challenge to backing out of a spot yeah what are you robbing a bank i'm wondering what do you got what do you got to jump in the car through the hood roof and just you know slam on the gas immediately with the momentum of you coming in the car i'm on to the 65 year old couples that are backing in the spots that they might be pulling a massive heist job in my apartment complex they're trying to like dukeses of Hazzard, you know, like slide over the hood of the car, just get in, boom, hit the gas, get out.

It's a little sketchy. It's a little sketchy. It's all I'm saying. I'm glad that I got confirmation that it's not normal because I'm just seeing too much of it here where it's time to leave. That's the real reason I'm moving. It's an unnecessary flex. It really is.

I agree. And you know what? But if you suck at it, it's not a flex. It looks really bad and weird and wastes everyone's time so linebackers no the best part about you going on this rant is a lot of people listen to this podcast while driving so you know that just from a sheer numbers game it's got to be one someone is going to be mid backup reverse park into a parking spot or behind the person doing it i'm getting roasted it's not personal it's simply business it might be personal it could be very personal i could be it could be it kind of sounds like in your case

it actually is personal it's all right we're costing me a lot of time i'm gonna be honest with you it's just costing me a lot of time that's it you should you should vet you should uh you should somehow get their venmo and hit a venmo request for like you know 75 cents or 75 cents every 30 seconds my time is worth my time this is this the amount of time slash money that you wasted this is another issue old people do not venmo zell they they just they just pull a five dollar bill out of their purse or whatever it is and they go are we square and i respect that as well but are we square even yeah no i know but you are you know you're from the northeast when you say are you square oh man i keep it pretty reined in uh on this show not as much but every other show i do but every once in a while

it really comes out so that's why we like you know you got to let it out here on nfl yes okay uh all right so off all linebackers we're gonna give you our top eights today we're gonna hit a uh a good hour long show here and uh and get to our top eight linebackers that we have heading into the college football season which is upon us man i mean i guess we're releasing this the week after that we're recording it. So we already had a little bit of college football action that already kicked off. And so, man, we are just about to have a flood of games this upcoming weekend. We're still trying to get you as many players as possible.

We're still going to do the big board episode. We're still going to do the way too early mock draft episode before the NFL season gets kicked off. So don't worry, that is still coming. But Connor, we're going to do our top eights here. We're going to do what we've done before, rapid fire eight through six, and then we'll kind of break down the top five a little bit more individually. So who you got eight through six?

So eight for me is Lander Barton from Utah, who got hurt last year, but the seven games he played had some really big moments, I think, in coverage and as a playmaker overall I know the draft and scouting community as a whole is very very high on the sky um I'll get into all of it seven for me somebody that I think the draft and scouting community doesn't care about at all despite being maybe the most steady player steady defender in the nation last year and I get from a projecting standpoint there there are questions and outlier aspects and things but jay higgins from iowa um so somebody that i got to i got to interview at big 10 media day and um you you understand why he's the leader of

a defense loaded with nfl talent and uh i just think he has a lot of things that are so natural and extinct at the position. So we'll get into him as well. And then six for me was Smale. I want to make sure I get his name right throughout this show. But Smale Mondin Jr. OK, from Georgia, who is a really exciting player. Obviously, there's there's so much linebacker talent on the Georgia team and some linebacker talent like Jermon Dumas-Johnson

that left for Kentucky to show how much talent they have. But with Mondin Jr., I mean, obviously, a pretty unique athlete at the position, some of the things he could do and the range and the movement skills. So I had to have him at six with some room to grow, I think, higher. So I do want to hear about Higgins because I did not get to watch him. He is on my watch list of guys that I wanted to get on the PFF big board either before the season or very early on in the season. So talk to me a little bit more about him and we can touch on those other two guys as well. Yeah. I mean, Higgins is somebody that he played the

most snaps out of any defender in the big 10 last year, right? Like the, and this was the joke we had, you know, on the show a couple weeks ago when i brought it up he's like i just if i get to play more football that's a good day that's somebody that takes a lot of pride and being able to stay on the field no matter what and you know in the when you play linebacker in the big 10 i think you get and same could be said for the sec i think you get a taste of what you know that north and south run game on a near NFL level can feel like at times where you're getting punched in the mouth. And there's so many guys, Trevor, on our watch list this year. And this is an ever growing trend of guys that are they look like safeties out there.

They really do. But at the college game, you can get away with that a lot. The linebacker position as a whole gets smaller year after year. There's no longer are the days of 255, 260 pound. Honestly, when a guy's 245 pounds, that feels huge at the position right now. It's crazy that you say that because of the 12 linebackers that I got full scouting reports on for this study, only two of them had off-ball linebacker percentile weights above 50th yeah only two everyone else was below 50th percentile and weight you got guys that are i mean you talk about a guy who's 245 he seems big nowadays i feel like i'm reading 230 235 more than i ever have and it's yeah i'm reading 220s i mean listen

yeah i mean the 220 guys are and we'll get into a couple obviously but and some of the the heights and weights i have will be different from listed weight i think it's a little more closer to what at least height what they'll come in at the combine the all-star process they'll gain weight lose weight it's it's the name of the game with the draft process. Higgins, and he's very aware of this. He brought this up to me. He's a little over six feet tall, and he's a little under 230 pounds. He's 227. He's smaller. He's smaller at the position. And I don't think he's the fastest guy in the world. I really don't. He's undersized, and he doesn't have this athleticism where, like a lot of these guys, he has this true pass rush upside to pair with the off-ball stuff. But the off-ball stuff in the intangibles is so high-end at the position. Permanent team captain, team leader, instinctual, high-end awareness. And it's defending the run in the pass. He has great awareness in zone coverage.

He always kind of seems to know where the run is going to be funneled. You can't quantify what he does for his teammates around him pre-snap. These are a lot of guys that are going to go on to play at the NFL, and this is the guy getting everybody lined up and ready and in the right position and understanding what the opposition is trying to do to them. And I think this is a big issue at the position in today's game. He comes to balance and breaks down to tackle almost to perfection.

And I understand maybe there's not the desirable arm length with Higgins that can lead to some deficiencies at the NFL. But at the college level, his ability to come to balance and break down is beautiful. It's teach tape. And I think that there are a lot of guys that are more athletic, are bigger, and can make bigger splash plays. But when you miss a ton of tackles, you have to start to wonder how much are you giving up to gain?

And I think that Higgins, like, to put it in perspective, right, I have him as linebacker seven. Seven. I think the projection for him is he'll be a fifth-round pick. He'll be a great special teamer from day one. And he'll eventually settle in to being a early down player. He'll never be this like all pro sideline to sideline freak show on all three downs. But he's just so steady Eddie in the middle of the defense and the type of guy that seems to hang around the NFL for a really long time.

You know, it's funny because I didn't watch Higgins, defense and the type of guy that seems to hang around the NFL for a really long time. You know, it's funny because I didn't watch Higgins, but the way that you are explaining him as your LB seven is how I would talk about my LB six, who is Kareem Reed from Utah. Okay. It's a guy I did not get to see. Lander Barton's teammate. I want to get to Barton in a second but the measurables for reed five foot eleven and a half 228 pounds and so he's about the same size as what you said that higgins is but the way that you talked about how he overcomes being short on measurables full

pun intended i mean that's fifth percentile for the off-ball linebacker in height tenth percentile for an off-ball linebacker in weight and weight is important for linebackers right sometimes it's not as important for some of these other positions you know guys like I would say like corner is maybe one of them although you do have to obviously come up and tackle and be physical a corner but you've seen guys who have a little bit lower weight who can still play the position at a really high level linebacker it's tough to be physical at corner, but you've seen guys who have a little bit lower weight who can still play the position at a really high level linebacker. It's tough to be a low percentile weight player and be a true full-time off ball linebacker. You got to be physical. You're playing in the box. You're going up against a pulling offensive lineman. It's a lion's den.

Tight ends, right? And so when you're at corner, you're a wide receiver and you're away from the trenches. You can look at guys who have lower measurables and lower percentiles, especially when it comes to weight. And you could say, yeah, I mean, he's a little bit lighter than what you want, but he's got the rest of the game to get away with it. And if you tried to sell me on that, I would be more easily swayed or convinced that I could be bought into what this guy could do well. If you were a low percentile linebacker, it is tough to do. It's just really tough to be that kind of a player, especially at the NFL level. But Reed, to your credit, I mean, these are the strengths that I have for Reed,

which feel like close parallel to what you talked about with Higgins. Motor is always running hot. Confident, smooth movements in zone drop coverage. Makes adjustments and calls in the middle of the defense team captain in 2023 multiple year starter instinctual player who has good vision good awareness and a very low missed tackle rate last year despite being sub 230 pounds they sound very similar play so when i watch higgins i'm'm probably going to end up having him, I would think, close to where we're at here with Reed, who Reed, I don't know what the total background with Higgins was

in terms of how old he is, but Reed's also probably going to be one of the oldest prospects in the class. He was a three-star linebacker back in the 2018 recruiting class. Guys don't want to leave Utah, huh? Well, he did a two-year church mission before he even played college football. That's always the case. Vocky was the same way, wasn't he? Yes, a lot of players at Utah and BYU can be the same thing, right?

The Church of Latter-day Saints, if it's a school that is a religious school with the LDS ministry, sometimes you do get these two-year church missions that these guys will go on. And so that's just the important part of it. You can look at him and go like, well, hold on, like 2018, that doesn't make any sense. Well, Reed's only been playing college football basically since 2021. So he's had a regular college football timeline since then. But you just have to factor in the fact that he's going to be one of the older players in the class. But there's a lot of things to like about his game. As one of those smaller players, you remember Sean Dion Hamilton from Alabama?

Somebody who is middle linebacker, moved very well, was a coverage guy in the middle of a really powerful defense. Unfortunately, he just went through some injuries when he was in the NFL that I think really derailed but could have been a great career for him. But he was kind of a mid-round pick who was just a really smart player at a lower measurable percentile that I think that Reed and maybe even guys like Higgins could kind of be that type of a player, or at least what we thought Sean Deion Hamilton could be

when he was coming out of Alabama. Yeah, it's such a weird conundrum when evaluating this position because a common exercise for people watching at home that want to get into scouting and sorry for the people that are like true sickos and this you already know this but you always try to look at who the best players are at the nfl at their position right now as a group you can't look at one guy right like like for edge pass rushers you can't be like well i love miles garrett good luck finding the next miles garrett or anything close he's just such a unicorn.

But you look at the NFL and you look at a lot of the guys that have played linebacker for the Niners recently. You look at like Quincy Williams was an all pro last year for the Jets. I mean, talk about a guy that plays about 227, 230, but he's also runs probably a 4-4. So it's a little different. Like Higgins and you kind of brought up a lot of the same things that's not what they are they're not these prototypes that are going to run a 4-4 and if you're simply tall 225 or 230 you could still be great at the position but you got to be the

freakiest athlete on earth and we'll probably get to a guy in the show that kind of fits that mold but there is a point in evaluating a position where you need like a nuts and bolts guy like who's a guy that's going to play on first down and second down for me when i have or that rare time i have three linebackers on the field in today's nfl and he can fill a run lane he can take a fullback or a tight end or any kind of pulling guard head on or he's going to point out something to the guy next to him and say you need to look out for that and i got this like that matters a lot it not everybody is going to be six feet tall jump 42 inches and have a 683 cone like at some point like the mental awareness of this position is colossal and like it could be hard to justify when there are athletic

limitations but at the end of the day there's a track record in this league of how much that still matters. Yeah, I think that there's just so many funny ways to win at the linebacker position, right? I mean, you think about Zach Thomas, who is just an all-time outlier. Is that right? Zach Thomas was 5'11", like 240, 235. London Fletcher. liar is it right zach thomas was 5 11 like 240 235 in an error in an arrow where if you were like 255 260 you were playing linebacker at the nfl level and yet he was exactly where he needed to be he racked up a billion tackles because he was a really smart football player and so there's just i i do mean it when i say like it's harder to stand out when you have a lower weight

percentile at the linebacker spot, but it can be done. If you are exactly where you need to be, you become sort of just this, this centerpiece of the entire defense. And they can kind of flow through you because they know that you have the center run fits made. You are in the spot that you can be where you need to be so the defensive coordinator knows that he can get creative with where he is playing the players around him so sometimes that can mean a lot uh for some coaching staffs it doesn't work out but some you can find a little bit of innovation there so lander barton is somebody that i i wanted to hear a little bit from you about i've talked about reed i have lander Barton as LB3 okay in this class so I

like him a lot what what did you see in Barton because I think he was your eight was he the first he was eight for me okay all right what do you think about Barton and then I'll kind of echo some of what I thought of him as well yeah this is somebody that he has some big you know summer grades for a couple teams he's very high on many respected draft analyst boards uh like yourself barton like six three and an eighth 233 pounds it's kind of near prototype in today's league i know it sounds crazy to say but good size um like i said last year he had a season-ending lower body injury after seven games do you know what it was i googled non-stop and have no idea what it was uh for hours i tried to find this for hours um i think it was a foot injury

okay that's all i can find i think that it was some sort of foot injury i wonder if it was like a liz frank foot injury that would scare me a lot if it was, but anyway, but like, I don't know what else it was. I don't know what, cause Utah doesn't specify this stuff. It's, it goes back to our whole bit of like, his leg might need to be cut off.

He could be back two days from now. We don't know. Okay. So his season ended after seven games and that's a shame because there was some big time moments for this guy. The number one thing that stands out to me is in, in this era, he's a hard hitter, Trevor, for this guy. The number one thing that stands out to me is in, in this era, he's a hard hitter,

Trevor, like this guy here, he, when he makes contact with the ball carrier, there is purpose behind his hitting. And he consistently looks to punch the ball out. He, he wants to make big plays,

this guy. And that also transitions to coverage where you have two picks in just seven games, three more forced than completions. And it's like legit ball hawking going after reading anticipating making plays and coverage i just think right now and this is why i wish i had more than those seven games because most of the time younger players and lander barton is a junior right now younger players or less experienced

players get a lot better at this in the second half of the year at this position his run fits and just overall run defense awareness is wildly inconsistent like there are moments where it feels like he can blow up a play and then there's moments where i'm like he had no idea what just happened and the ball carrier is five yards past him already and then when they lined him up at outside linebacker and asked him to set an edge a couple of times, and I understand like this is probably going to be a guy that's more true off ball at the next level. I thought he got walked off the line of scrimmage pretty consistently. So I think that I see the trajectory and why a lot of scouts are going to be really high on him because if this guy gets healthy, number one, stronger, number two, and even a

notch, like his run awareness goes from a five and a half to a seven. That's fine. That's completely fine. But I think right now it is really, really raw of how he consistently sees things in the run game. But he's the type of guy that when it's right, when he sees things, big hitter, big playmaker, ball skills and coverage, which is very rare at this position.

And you already have the nfl size i understand why people are kind of enamored with him at the moment yeah i think that we see him pretty similarly um you're just a little bit harsher on sort of the negatives which i totally understand i think that's totally fine uh junior utah linebacker by the way he's he's the teammate of the guy that i was just talking about uh kareem reed uh utah so we're going back to back utah linebackers here six foot three and a half ah Not quite a half. I think it's like just over six foot three, 233 pounds, 233 pounds, just 23rd percentile for the position. I have written on his strengths that actually when he gets some momentum, when he can create that speed to power,

if you will, he actually can punch above his weight class with strength when he is hitting, pulling offensive linemen. I think that goes to his tenacity and how hard he plays the game. But I do agree when you put him close to the line of scrimmage and he doesn't get that running start, that is where you see him get dog walked a little bit, which is obviously what you don't want for a player who's in the trenches. I mentioned it as well, takeaway mentality.

I have that, whether it's forced fumbles punching the ball away that that instinct for coverage of wanting to get the football that is all there there are too many times you're right where he just doesn't seem to know where the ball is going and that has to improve no doubt about it at the next level the missed tackle percentage was higher than i thought it was going to be for him because there are a lot of plays where I watch him and I go, good hit. Well, he wants to knock your head off all the time. And he's just like power and he's trying to do it the right way. He's not super reckless with it.

And then I looked at the missed tackle rate and I was like, man, that's why your run defense grade is lower than I thought it would be. Because you've got more missed tackles than I thought you would have. So I got to think that another year that will correct itself with some of the baselines of what I have seen from him. But I really like him, man. And obviously, if the last name sounds familiar, it should. Both of his brothers, Cody Barton and Jackson Barton,

have each played for Utah and have each played in the NFL. His brother Cody was a linebacker as well, whereas Jackson was an offensive lineman. But he's got quite the athletic family as well. His dad played baseball and football for Utah. His mother was an All-American basketball player. His sister is an All-American volleyball player. Yeah, this family.

This family. I mean, that's crazy. They had omelets and broccoli for breakfast every day. It's insanity. 100%. 100%. Only egg whites in the every day. It's insanity. 100%. 100%. Only egg whites in the omelet. Lean on me.

I'm a pro-yolk guy. See, I am. Don't get me wrong. I love the yolk. You got a lot of useful- There's nutrients in the yolk. Important nutrients. There's no doubt about it.

If you're trying to control the fat calorie count, I mean, it's all about macros, man. It's just whatever fits your macros. Very clearly, for the Barton family, they need the egg yolks. So you know what? What the hell am I talking about? They got egg yolks in the morning. There's no doubt about it.

He reminded me the highs of Landon Barton, reminded me a little bit of Minnesota Vikings legend Chad Greenway, who played in the league for over 10 years. I think he only made a couple of Pro Bowls, which is kind of shocking to me a little bit of Minnesota Vikings legend, Chad Greenway, who played in the league for over 10 years. I think he only made a couple of Pro Bowls, which is kind of shocking to me, but similar build, similar profile, played the game with their hair on fire, gave you some extra coverage ability. But again, I think if he increases that awareness, he's maybe got that Chad Greenway type of ceiling to him. So hopefully he comes back. And I do want to say, you know, to the point of us not knowing exactly what the injury was, there are too many really well-connected people in this industry who have him high in their rankings

to where I think scouts and NFL teams, they get the skinny on these guys. Like they actually get to know what really happened and if if he had like a liz frank injury or if he had an injury that was really going to affect him long term i think that would trickle out in the fact that he would be a lot lower on preseason boards than where i'm seeing him yep that's a really good point who's your eight to six yeah so i got jaylen walker the linebacker from Georgia, which is, I got him at number eight. He's interesting.

I'll talk about him in a second. I have Javon Dumas-Johnson, who was at Georgia. Now he's at Kentucky. I have him at number seven. Okay, he was nine for me. And then I said I had Kareem Reed, who I already talked about, at number six. So you want to talk about Dumas-Johnson

or you want to talk about Walker? Hmm. Wow. Let's talk about dumas johnson you want to talk about walker wow let's talk about walker truly truly stumped right here let's talk about walker yeah walker uh for me was five so this is good oh okay this is well all right then i'll i'll say some quick words on dumas johnson so then we can talk walker and it's an easy transition for us so dumas johnson he was one of the players who i mentioned whose weight profile is actually in the plus percentile 252 pounds is what he is listed at that would be 89th percentile for the position which is hilarious he's a unit 52 is now 89th percentile for off-ball linebackers but uh played at georgia now he transferred over to kentucky so

he's going to be at kentucky this year. Former four-star linebacker. Played a bunch of games as a true freshman. Started off 14 games as a sophomore. He started last year, but he broke his arm, so he didn't get to finish the season. But this is a heavy hitter. This is a throwback linebacker, right? I mean, it makes sense that his weight profile kind of reminds you of the linebackers of old, and his game does as well. This is somebody who i think once he gets you in between the shoulder pads

you're gonna feel it you're gonna need a nice bath the next day the shorter height the shorter length in the arms make getting off blocks a little bit more challenging for him shorter strides kind of limit how much coverage range and impact that he could have but if you want somebody in between the tackles to fit the run for you and be able to uh right, right. Pop pulling offensive linemen and really hold their own and get some penetration, whether it's single blocks, whether it's combo blocks, whatever it is,

I think this is the guy to do it for you. So maybe a little bit of a lower ceiling for him than some of these other guys that have some coverage, uh, pluses to them, but a good football player. And one that I can think certainly find a role in the NFL. Just limited,

right? I mean, he's just a big stout presence in the middle of the defense. But if you want him in the sideline to sideline race, you're going to be disappointed. I felt the same way as you. I had him at nine. I think he's a throwback.

I think there are going to be defenses that understand how to fit him into a rotation and put somebody next to him that kind of makes up for his lack of foot speed to the to lack of range i should say um we should talk about his former teammate in jaylen walker we we should i walker is a very very interesting player that i think takes a lot of context to understand right what he's done before and what he will do um for georgia moving forward before we did that though gotta shout out our friends over at draftraftKings. They are back this weekend.

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I got him at number eight. Take it away, my friend. I mean, big-time projection, right? Let's just be honest here this is not somebody that's a full-time player yet for georgia true junior uh hybrid player yeah i put it quite mildly right top 50 prospect in this recruiting class kind of that flex between a four and a five star i wouldn't call him a bona fide five star, but I would say he's better, like a higher rank than your typical four.

Listen, here's the thing with Jalen Walker. He's 6'2", 245. He has a good frame and strength at this position. He had a pass rush win rate last year of 20.7%. Yeah, 20.7. Yes, I believe it. He converts legitimate speed to power, Of 20.7%. Yeah. 20.7. Yes. I believe it. He converts legitimate speed to power. And the final big nugget I had is he's got a ton of experience on special teams already.

I mean, I'm just laughing at a guy that was like a fringe five star built like this, running down on kickoff and punt and just knocking your head off. Clothesline from hell. Here's the way i'd quit i simply put i would simply call today i'd go get my car back into a parking spot for five hours ruin someone else's time he's if if yeah next time you see somebody backing into a parking spot you're gonna yell at him and honk the horn it's jalen walker that's gonna get out you'd be like actually you're good you do whatever you want i'll go find no yeah go ahead go ahead i i'll pass on cvs i'll go to walgreens today he like this is the reality when you don't play a traditional linebacker role full time he's a step late to react to the run

in an off-ball role consistently not just like damn that one play he was like he just he's not seeing it yet um he needs to show he can handle that larger role in defense here's the other caveat trevor is he a linebacker or an edge because yeah i walked away almost mad at myself that i was like real talk and i know he's gonna play linebacker this year and he's he's pretty freaky so he might just end up really good at that position I don't think he's a good linebacker right now I think he has a massive ceiling and I have him at five because there's just traits you can't get with certain guys but I think he's a good pass rusher right now so it's really he's a really weird guy to rank and I'm obviously going to trust georgia to figure

this out because they just do but he it felt like he's better at edge right now but his long-term home is going to be off the ball so let's see how he does with a larger role in that area this year yeah it's look he's the other player that was one of the two that were above the 50th percentile in weight. And he's a damn edge rusher. So it's like he doesn't even really count. He's only 245. So the problem is that I think he is very clearly, he has the mindset of an edge rusher. He's been an edge rusher his whole career.

I read some interviews with him about making the transition from edge rusher to off-ball linebacker and he's like well he's like obviously the blitzing stuff is a lot easier for me because i've always been an edge rusher my whole life and now i'm kind of what'd you say he's like stand up pass rusher on so many reps right and that's why he's like i i've always been an edge rusher so this is a little bit different for me but at six foot two 245 pounds i mean he he's not built like an edge right you're gonna try to be mo kamara like that's there's another player that we'll get to where we have to have the exact same conversation here and and these guys are sort of edge rushers by trade but not by physical gifts and i think walker is one of those players where georgia is georgia seems to be taking a lot of the guys that were playing on the defensive line

and moving them out of position, right? Mikel Williams, who is a defensive end, they're going to move him to stand-up edge rusher this year. Jalen Walker, who is more of a stand-up edge, they're now moving to an off-ball linebacker spot this year. So they're just kind of spreading things out, and I guess that's in an effort to maybe get a little bit bigger with their three down linemen uh maybe bigger at the linebacker

level overall but coverage grades last year and he only played 84 snaps in the box last year right it's hard to even judge this too much but 48.1 coverage grade in the box 45.8 coverage grade in the slot just not reliable numbers. And he didn't have a single forcing completion last year. So it's hard to really know what to do with him. A lot of people like him a lot. I think he's a very talented player, but he really, I mean, he made it to number eight for me simply because I went, okay, you're really talented. You have the body type to play in the NFL. I just don't know where you're going to play. So that's why I got him. And that's a concern, right?

Because if you are too small to be an edge, which is what you're good at right now, are you going to mold into a good linebacker? I don't know. Right. So, yeah, it's an interesting one. Big question. I have Clemson's Barrett Carter at number five. Okay.

I hit him at two. okay all right i like him you know and and i think i went into my study of him and i was like i don't think i'm gonna like barrett carter because if i actually liked him i think he would have declared last year because he was draft eligible last year people will remember his name from summer scouting that we did last year. Oh yeah. And so I kind of went into it and I was like, there's gotta be like, I'm going to find something on his tape that I'm going to review his season

last year. And I'll go, yeah, I don't really see it. I can get why he went back to school. He's good. Like, like,

like Barry Carter's good. And I think him being at five talks about how much i kind of like the linebackers that i've got ahead of him so you know with with carter i still think he can absolutely be a potential top 60 top 50 player really fast three four will linebacker outside linebacker type of a player former former five-star in his recruiting class. He has been a two-year starter. He started 13 games as a sophomore, started 13 games last year. He's going to start all the games that he's healthy this year for Clemson. So he's going to have a ton of experience to his name. Really great athlete. Well, shoot, I should have mentioned his measurables. So he's a shade under six foot, which is sixth percentile,

235 pounds, 29th percentile. It looks like he's gained a little bit of weight from last year, which is good, but just an explosive athlete. What do you have him as exactly? A shade under six foot. Okay. Yeah. About six feet, 233 is what I had, but yeah, you're right. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I got him right under six foot. And then I don't know if I rounded up because i didn't find an exact number or it was just 235 is the number that i found but close somewhere around 235 anyways when he sees it boom he's there like he the guy can trigger downhill incredibly fast he can go sideline

to sideline very very very well. I thought that the strength was still an issue for him last year, which is why I noted the trending upward of him gaining a little bit of weight compared to what he was listed at last year, because the missed tackle rate from him was too high. It's got to be better than it was in 2023. I just felt as though that strength issue for him was probably something that was glaring that he felt like he could get better at that. He thought the athlete, he had the athleticism to be a potential first round pick. If he gets a little bit stronger, if he cleans that stuff up. So the measurable is obviously a little bit smaller for him, but he makes up for it by like what you were talking about before

being a really damn good athlete. I liked him better than I thought that I was going to, even for the reasons of why he would go back to school. I think Carter could still be a really good player. Um, and somebody who could be a potential starting linebacker in the NFL because of how athletic he is. I just like a couple of the guys above him. He's just so fast. fast i mean you look at what he's done over the last two years nine sacks 16 passes defended three picks 20 tfls former five star multiple time acc honor roll selection uh this is somebody that is a remarkable presence off the field just as much as he is on the field i know in a lot of his free time, he goes to elementary schools and reads to the kids. He does a lot of different volunteer work to put it. I mean,

this is the highest form of praise. Dabo Sweeney, who's coach, how many different talents over the years said he's one of the best pure football players I've had in 20 years. Like this, this guy has clearly left a mark on that Clemson program and, and gets another opportunity to do that this year.

And you just nailed it. Like, this is rare speed for the position. This is run around, heat-seeking missile, sideline to side. I think it has the same range as a safety. I really do. Like, I thought the range is the same as a athletic strong safety. His ability to explode from the backside of plays and chase down ball carriers from behind is just something

not a lot of guys can do. And, you know he just almost plays too fast at times the 12 missed tackles against the run in 2023 so many of them that i watch are him overshooting plays it's not like he gets the ball carrier and he now the problem is there was one time that he did get trucked omari and hampton i like that's a tough one that one's fair though that one's fair yeah that one's any anyone would tip your hat and you tip your cab and say good game like it's ggs my man it's omari and hampton is just different it's that trucking was wild and i think that's where you can kind of see that even at 233 235 pounds like Bear Carter is not the biggest guy in the front seven he's not and that's probably

the difference of him being something you alluded to an exciting second round pick compared to one of the freak show first round linebackers that is not an easy feat to pull off so i had a met two i think i value the athleticism and um a lot of things the athleticism the character the range and the explosive play making over the the three guys i have them uh behind them in this top five yeah yeah um number four for me i have notre dame linebacker jack kaiser this is kind of funny to me because four for you is the guy i didn't watch and four for me is the guy you didn't watch oh you have somebody i didn't watch it for j sean barham oh yeah he transferred him on the list this is good this is good we each are going to talk about a guy that you know the other person didn't get to watch and they're obviously good players they're

in our top fives all right so Notre Dame just had two linebackers going last year's draft um oh my goodness Maris Leofau Maris Leofau and uh and Bertrand. Jack Kaiser was sort of like a rotational guy with those two players, but he really, anytime those two guys were fully healthy, he wasn't playing a ton. I mean, he only got Kaiser, that is. Had 354 snaps last year. I don't really know why. I think that Kaiser is better than J.D. Bertrand.

Interesting. And I think that he could be better than Maris Leofo, although I liked Maris Leofo quite a bit. I had him as a top 100 player last year. Yeah, he's a good player. I think that he could be a starting NFL linebacker. But he might be for the Cowboys, right? That's true.

That's true. So Jack Kaiser, he's 6'1.5", which is 74th percentile, 235, which is 29th percentile. He is a sixth-year player. This will be his sixth year in college football. Again, I don't know how he did not get a starting role before this. His recruiting background, four-star linebacker from Indiana. He won back-to-back Class A state championships as a

junior and a senior in high school. He was named 2018's Mr. Indy Star or the Indy Star's Mr. Football in the state. He played quarterback, safety, and linebacker for the team in high school. And he was top three in both the shot put and the 100 meter dash when he competed in the state tournament in track and field he's got the athletic background to him he's got the size to him he's got decent coverage instincts he hits really well he's a fundamentally strong tackler very low missed tackle rate now he's got ample special teams experience because he didn't play a ton as a starting linebacker, so they played him on special teams a ton on kick duties and punt duties. I think his arm length is actually longer than what his height suggests, so I think the arms make it easier for him to stack and shed,

to be able to play on the line of scrimmage, go up against offensive linemen when they want him to blitz. The all-around athleticism from the track background and the multi-position background, him playing quarterback, that is all there for him the big negatives from him is he didn't show a lot of nuance when he's rushing the passer just because he didn't get to do it a lot and the feel for coverage like sometimes you watch the field for coverage you're like all right well you could have moved in this direction a little bit quicker maybe made a bit bigger impact on the ball but coverage grade in the box now Now it's a smaller sample size. So again, we'll say PFF grades do well or do best, I should say, when you have larger sample sizes. So with smaller sample sizes, sometimes the grades can get skewed a little bit

harshly, or you're praising them more than you should one way or the other his coverage grades 83.6 coverage grade in the box 74.8 coverage grade in the slot 87.3 run defense grade and an 11.6 per run stop percentage which is 85th percentile he had the hot connor he had the highest wins above replacement metric of 0.23 of any of the linebackers that i watched it's's crazy. And so I'm like, how do we not get this guy on the field? That's what I'm confused by. I'm actually excited for him to now be a full-time starting linebacker. He was voted a team captain as well, so he'll be a team captain this year. But I watched this guy's tape last year, even the little bit that he was on the field,

and I was like, this dude dude's good he's got the goods give him the snaps and so this year we get to see the snaps so i'm excited about it dude that's crazy yeah i clearly gotta watch the snaps he did get to play last year and that was a weird exercise i had during this whole group right is that like a couple of, like I watched Jalen Walker in the middle or towards the end. Cause it's like, well, he didn't play full time and he was used brushing the passer a lot, but then you start reading up on,

you know, how he's going to use this year and have an athlete. He was. And it's weird when you find yourself in those situations of guys that have been around a little bit, but haven't truly played linebacker, but you're trying to project who can do the most with more time at the position.

And it sounds like this is exactly that kind of scenario. Yeah, yeah. I also think he was honestly one of the best linebackers I watched at covering running backs out of the backfield and covering tight ends and man coverage. Wow. Just because, again, the guy moves really well. So anytime you can do that.

I watched him, and I'm glad that we get a full year of him playing as a starting linebacker. Well, that's exciting. I already mentioned who my number three is with Landon Barton. You already mentioned who your number two is with Barrett Carter. So wait, who is your number four we gotta we gotta talk about your number four and then we'll get into the two guys number four for me was jay sean barham yes so this is where's he from he will be playing his football at michigan this year he transferred from maryland

good program good program and fascinating because he's a true junior but he started for basically for maryland his first two years like this was a big get for them okay at the time and now he goes to michigan six foot three 248 pounds right off the top like this is a well-built linebacker true junior somebody that he's a former four-star that was the number three ranked player in the state of Maryland. So Maryland getting him to stay in the state was a pretty good get for them at the time. Yeah, he's basically started his freshman and sophomore years. And this goes back to a little bit of the conversations we've had with some of these guys. His pass rush win rate last year, Trevorvor on 80 pass rush snaps was 22.5

like he kicked the shit out of tackles as a pass rusher just when it was and they obviously is one of the he's got a rare blend of size and athleticism when it was passing downs third and longs maryland would use him as a legit edge Like they'd move him from off ball and have him as a stand-up rusher on the outside. You saw a burst, change of direction, some power, like legit pass rushing wins, methods of winning. And then you just look at some of the plays he's been able to make at off ball linebacker.

While not consistent, because I do think as a run defender there's a little bit of a delay in processing at times which is the case with a lot of these guys he had an interception last year I mean he's made plays before as a freshman he had a forced fumble like this dude is big he's pretty fast he's athletic athletic. He has a very, very unique ability to play off the ball in early downs and rush the passer on passing downs. And I'm just sitting here, Trevor, thinking of him playing behind Mason Graham and Kenneth Grant.

And I'm like, this dude is going to run around and just blow up every damn play. It's going to be not easy for him because that's not fair, but this is a situation where his stock is going to take off like a rocket is how I see him fitting in this Michigan defense. I mean, Michigan had some players last year at the linebacker spot who were able to play very fast and free because of that defensive line. And I got to think that it's still going to be a very,

very good defensive line. I mean, you've got those new edge rushers coming in, but I think that they're very talented players. But Michael Barrett, Junior Colson, those guys, I mean, they were able to just fly around last year because of how free and how clean the defensive line was able to keep them. So I'm excited.

I got to watch him then, 100% before the season. I got to get to both of those guys. I think he's going to have a big year. All right. So I said that I already talked about my number three guy. You already talked about your number two guy. So who is three for you? Okay, so three for me is Danny Stutzman from Oklahoma.

Okay. I have Stutzman at one. Okay. I have Stutzman at one. Okay. I have Stutzman as LB1. Like one to three for me, I thought you can kind of shake up and pull one out of the hat situation. Like I was pretty impressed with my one through three. I was going to say, let's see how well we see him

or if we see him eye to eye with me having him as LB1, you having him as lb3 what did you think about danny so stutzman six oklahoma oklahoma we got i'm trying to make sure that we're better about that for the people senior 6-4 240 total lunatic in the best way right he really is see last year he finished with 16 tackles for loss, three sacks, one pick, two forced fumbles. He also he started all 13 games in 2022. Ten and a half tackles for loss, three sacks, two picks. His dad played football at Baylor.

His mom played basketball for Baylor. His sister played softball for Florida State. He was also an all-state wide receiver in high school you're wondering what kind of athlete this guy is at six foot four 240 i mean he can absolutely host the pod yeah yeah just yes just a well-built human like he's got length he's big he's dense he has zero and i mean zero fear of taking on and working through blocks i would say when you do this exercise 75 to 80 percent of the guys you watch in this era try to slip blocks and listen if you're 220 pounds and you got a 320 pound guard pulling

and coming your way i get it like do you really want to stick your nose into his chest and maybe have your season ended they try to slip block and you're going to be more like you could move you could slip under it you're quicker stutzman's a little bit of a throwback where he will run right through your face yeah and with with play with pleasure i think i think it's like yeah right it's like in those fighting games when you like build up a meter to unlock like your special like the more collisions he gets in it feels like he's about to unlock his special move that's how it goes for him that's actually pretty damn good that's what it felt like watching him where i'm like oh no he's growing stronger um yes you got to give him credit though because i know we're gonna we look at him and kind like oh no he's growing stronger um yes you got to give him credit though

because i know we're gonna we look at him and kind of joke like he's almost he's this character and he's almost this cartoon character of a linebacker the way he crashes gaps like a total maniac but i think he's got a pre-snap six cents on some plays that blew my mind where i was like damn he knew exactly what they were gonna do and there was nothing they could do out of it because it was too late to check out of the play because he's not an idiot where there's so much time on the play clock. And he's like, now I'm going to show that I know what they're doing. He sees the play clock and understands when he can crash the gap. I think the speed is good. I saw sideline range. I saw comfort and hip fluidity when dropping into coverage.

The two things I wrote down that are our weaknesses. I think his pad level naturally gets high. It's he's tall. He's tall for the position and he can when you're going into collision after collision. Sometimes when you're not expecting the collision, he's naturally high rather than low, which can allow guys to gain leverage leverage under you i think at times he did struggle to come to balance i don't know if it's because he's so jacked up to make a play that he's just firing on all cylinders but they're saying like over pursuing stuff a little bit over pursuing a little bit i got that too right like like a step too late of when to break down but this is a really really good football player uh he's so

much fun man he is um layton vanderash is who he reminds me of okay just a yeah bigger taller longer linebacker who feels like a maniac when he is out there vanderash had over 140 tackles in his last year when he was at boise state um he had a lot of really good plays and coverage as well but it was just you knew that this guy was going to be a tackling machine and Vander Esch showed that he was able to do that. Certainly when he was healthy throughout his NFL career and college career, but they're very similar builds. I think that they have similar ceilings as players. Stutzman was, he's from Florida, by the way. So like he is a true Florida. He's our Orlando guy. He is. You got to be a full sicko, man.

Like your airport is the Disney World Airport. Where is he? No, no, no. He legitimately might be from Orlando. I thought he was. Maybe I'm wrong. Yes, yes. He's from Winter Garden, Florida, which is just outside.

You would know you are. You are. People forget you are a Florida man. Are you? Are you? Like it's not like reformed have you are you do you shed the title or do you still carry like are you once you're florida you're always florida no you can't i spent too much time i was 28 years living oh my god you're forever florida yeah you can't you can't get rid of that that's in the roots so i appreciate

another another florida man putting on a football helmet just acting like you are built differently if like say your friend is getting married in cleveland ohio and you have to fly from where the same people are coming into and leaving disney world just to get to a normal place that is a different hellscape Like you are mentally prepared for different warfare. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

There's a lot of things that just goes absolutely unbothered when you're a Florida man and you, and you get to other, but it's Orlando, the final boss of Florida. What's the final? I think so too. Well,

I mean, you know, better than no, no, no. I look, there are, there are plenty of like,

you know, much smaller areas of Florida that you could consider the final boss. But Florida is very different. South Florida and Miami is so different than central Florida of Orlando, which is so different from northern Florida, which is like anything from Gainesville north. Right. You could throw Jacksonville and Pensacola into that as well and Destin's its own wonderland. But in my opinion, of places that you would actually go to in Florida, yeah, Orlando's the final boss.

Orlando is the final boss in my opinion. But yeah, Stutzman, a true Florida man, and he plays like that when he puts the helmet on. There are plays in coverage where he is very instinctual. Now, I will say there are other times where it is a big roller coaster and sometimes he does not see it and i wish it was a little bit more consistent but at least he gives you the highs at least you've been able to see that already um he's strong he loves physicality i think that just for a linebacker he brings everything that you would want to the table

things to clean up sure but length size length, size, speed, physicality, some instincts that we've already seen from him, it's all there for Stutzman. He gives you what you would want from the off-ball linebacker position. So that's why I had to have him as LB1. Yeah, he's awesome. I mean, he really, really is. But I think that kind of flips our combo to my LB1 and your LB2?

Yes, I got Perkins LB2. perkins is harold perkins from lsu yes i'll do it justice here thank you thank you linebacker edge true junior linebacker edge safety honestly like maybe maybe he should just try to be derwin j. I don't know. He's he's six foot and an eighth, 215 pounds. So this is a really, really unique player. In 2022, he finished with seven and a half sacks, four force fumbles,

three pass break, send a pick last year. He finished with five and a half sacks, three force fumbles, six pass breakups in a pick. Former five star, one of the best top ranked players in his class. He came out of the state

of texas shocker high-end athlete i mean the ghost move against tackles is beautiful stupid explosive insane downhill pursue speed like his ability to run and chase is stupid stupid good uh experience playing all off-ball linebacker spots outside rush backer plays overhang like he's out there he's he can really you can really move this guy around and it's not i think he is good at every spot he plays he can really open up and run in coverage if a linebacker if a running back is trying to get going whether it's like a swing or a wheel or an angle like this is the kind of guy that could open up his hips and turn and run here's the kicker pass rush win rate was 9.7 percent last year on 154 pass rush snaps

not a ton of wins in true pass rush situations trevor to me like i wasn't like okay you're gonna go in a real pass set i'm rushing from the edge and the quarterback's gonna take this deep drop and i'm gonna like work an arm over or like an inside move or it's a lot of running by people um he's just noticeably a cruiserweight in the arena of heavyweights but yes i think a true off-ball linebacker running around making plays running cover blitz when you have to, not rush the passer, blitz. There's a difference to me. I think this guy could be the best linebacker in the class

because if you're playing a defense that, you know, we kind of see this with D'Amico Ryans, Robert Sala, whoever at the time is coaching the Niners, because Kyle always keeps the defense schematically the same, no matter who comes in as DC. The actual scheme of the defense remains the same. Like a front four that can rush, but a linebacker behind them that just runs around like a total lunatic. You cannot teach what Perkins has. You can't teach it. You are born with it. You are either blessed with it, and he is one of

the rare humans that is blessed with unique athletic gifts at the linebacker position. Yeah. I mean, at any position, truly, I mean, he is, he is an unbelievable athlete and I think it's been very frustrating for LSU fans and for college football fans who have watched Brian Kelly come down to LSU and switch him to off ball linebacker when they go, hold on, let, let Harold Perkins get after the passer. Look at what he was able to do as a freshman, but what he did as a freshman was such a small sample size. And I brian kelly is doing harold perkins future justice by telling him hey man like lsu's listing him at 215 215 zero zero with percentile zero right for an off ball linebacker let alone zero with percent like negative zerooth percentile for an edge rusher. There's no edge rusher in the

NFL that's even 10 pounds close to where Harold Perkins is right now. Now, he could gain a little bit of weight. I think he'd play at like 225, maybe 230 and be an edge rusher. But even if he gets 230 as an edge rusher, your first percentile, maybe, maybe, you might even still be zeroth percentile at 230 pounds it's 15 pounds heavier than what he is right now right i would love for harold harold perkins to be an edge rusher because he's got like you mentioned the burst the bend the flexibility it's all there for him but he's just not built that way and so instead now you've got to project him to an outside linebacker role an off-ball linebacker role, I should say. And I think that he has the athletic ability to

certainly be good in coverage, but because he's playing as like this hybrid defender, because LSU is trying to use him in a lot of different ways because they want to win football games with him. He doesn't exactly always have the off-ball linebacker hat on, if you will. They make him wear a lot of different hats. Apex defender, off-ball linebacker, on-ball linebacker. They make him do a lot of different things. So I'm hoping this year it's a little bit more streamlined from him, but he is a fantastic football player and a gifted football player athletically. Like you mentioned, it's just,

it's kind of hard right now to know where to project him. Given the fact that LSU doesn't really know where to play him because I don't think a lot of people do either. They say the same things that we do. He's one of the best out there, but where do we play him? Where's his home? I hope they give him just outside linebacker reps this year.

And that doesn't mean he can't blitz, but like give him the outside linebacker hat, have them wear the outside linebacker hat. And let's see what we get from an unbelievably talented player. Got anybody else before you want to, uh, that you want to shout out? No.

I mean, I watched a couple other, if like, so people know I watched Motore. I feel really bad. He tore his ACL for the second time in three years, one of Rutgers best players I'm rooting for his recovery and that he can go through the process and I think he could

be a good player Colin Oliver kind of another weird hybrid edge off ball guy from Oklahoma State so that's another one I watched and then Jason Henderson the tackling machine for old Dominion yeah you know so those are a couple more of the guys I watch. If you guys want to ask some questions in the comments, I'll definitely try to get to those as well. Yeah, fire it off in comments. That's the best way to do it. YouTube.com backslash at NFL Stock Exchange.

We'd love to hear your takes on our takes or if you've got linebacker rankings as well. That's the best way to do it. If you're audio only, you can hit us up at X and Instagram at Tampa Bay Trey at Connor J. Rogers. We are going to have one more show for you this week. It's going to be the safety position to wrap up summer scouting. Oh, beautiful words because it means that the season is almost here.

And we're going to get into, we're going to do a show big board like we did last year. Where Connor and I can give you each our top 50s. I think we're doing top 50s. Maybe we can do top 75s. I don't know. We'll talk about it. We'll figure about it. We'll figure out a way to collaborate a show big board for you guys. That show

was a lot of fun to do last year. We'll give you the mock draft as well. Look out for the next episode, the final episode of Summer Scouting, the safety position coming up later this week. I'm Trevor Sycamore. That is Connor Rogers. Thank you guys so much for watching and listening to the NFL Stock Exchange Podcast.

See you guys so much for watching and listening to the NFL Stock Exchange Podcast. See you guys next time. Bye.