NFL Stock Exchange: An NFL Draft Podcast - 33. Guest Mock Draft Series: Texans, Ravens, Eagles & Saints (with Drew Dougherty, Jeff Zrebiec, Ben Solak & Nick Underhill

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

Hosts Trevor Sikkema and Connor Rogers debate a massive hypothetical trade in the Top 10, then continue the Guest Mock Draft with four fantastic guests: Drew Dougherty from the Houston Txanes, Jeff Zrebiec from The Athletic, Ben Solak from The Ringer and Nick Underhill from NewOrleans[dot]Football

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I got it this year. It's awesome. Sign up now at youtube.com slash BS, device and content restrictions apply. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday ticket for out-of-market games excludes digital-only games. Welcome to the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. On this episode, we continue the guest mock draft series with the Houston Texans, the Baltimore Ravens, the Philadelphia Eagles, and now the New Orleans Saints as well after their big

trade with Philadelphia. We're going to be talking everything with team needs, draft targets, what these teams have been up to all offseason with four fantastic guests. Without further ado, let's just get right to it. I'm Trevor Sycamore. With me as always is my co-host, Connor Rogers. Let's ring the bell. Welcome to the opening bell of the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. I am Trevor Sigmund. That is Connor Rogers. This is another episode in the guest mock draft series. Today, we got four teams, four guests coming at you with the Houston Texans, the Baltimore Ravens, the Philadelphia Eagles,

and now because of the trade, the New Orleans Saints at 13 through 16. Connor, how are we feeling? We got a knockout for guests this episode. You got the energy for it? You ready for it? Absolutely, brother. I mean, this is fun. This is where it gets a little bit more creative, right? We have a couple players on the board that I think a lot of people are surprised they didn't go in the top 10 of this draft.

Indeed. Indeed. We'll see if any of these guest mock drafters can take care of that for us and man the draft is changing every single week at this point we've been able to move with it uh bob and weave along as the draft order changes but it just goes to show you that any day could bring something new at this point i love this exercise man i know i say this all the time and we're the ones who are doing it but like this is so much fun for me i'm excited for this. We've got four fantastic guests here ready to line up and tell us what they think about their teams. But before we get to that, Connor, I had a little game that I wanted to play with you because Peter Schrager from good morning football, he always

is really plugged into the league and he's always, you know, telling us about these conversations that he's having with people behind the scenes. so a lot of what peter says sometimes comes from nfl circles and he had a tweet earlier this week and i want to throw it out at you because it involved your beloved new york jets and it also involved something that we talked about on the monday mock draft his proposal of a situation was if you're the Jets and the New Orleans Saints, who now own picks 16 and 19, call you and say, we'll give you both 16 and 19 for number four overall. Would you do it?

So, no, I wouldn't. But it's not a bad trade. There's a reason like how close are we here honestly really really close number one it's fair right and i'm not just talking about the draft the trade value chart which does have it as the jets fourth overall pick is worth 1800 yep uh 16 and 19 combined is 1875 on this trade value chart so it's fair and there usually is a tax on the trade value chart i think that's fair to keep in mind right now trevor my personal problem with the trade from a wide view of this class is that i think there's only a handful of premium players and when you're at number four you have a legitimate shot to get one of those guys, whether it's Kayvon Thibodeau, you know, whoever it may be, Iki Okwunu.

To me, that blue chip dries up really quick this year, where if you go back to six, so they'd be at 10, 16 and 19. Yeah, they'd get three players that can come in and be starters. And, you know, maybe you hit big on one of of them but you're picking from a totally different bargain rack because but you're looking at it because you split the picks now why specifically that doesn't work for the Jets is this is a team that needs ball players like they need an identity player they need somebody that's a difference maker they've done this whole you know trying to get serviceable in areas for so long and all that's well and fun.

They need a star at number four. And I think they really need a star at the pass rush spot. If you told me today, Trevor, that Jermaine Johnson was going to be there at 10, which that's not how the draft works, then I'd take the trade. Because I'd take Jermaine at 10, I'd get my wide receiver at 16,

and then 19's house money that you probably honestly trade out of again. We'll see. But my problem with it is you're realistically taking your wide receiver at 10. And then you're looking at the, you know, Boye-Mafé conversation, a pass rusher who I like a lot. But they need a stud. That's the problem. So it's a really interesting exercise because, you know,

when you look at it, you go, okay, well, does that make sense for a Houston? Does that make sense for a New York Giants? Why are the Giants the same argument for me? I think they need an Evan Neal or an Aquanu. They can't move from five. But a Houston, it might make a little more sense. You get where I'm going at? It's very team specific.

Yes. No, no, no. It totally makes sense. And that's why, you know, we had this conversation when we were doing the mock draft. And I mentioned a little bit because on Monday I had New Orleans moving up using 16 and 19 to move up to number five with the New York Giants. And kind of in passing, I also mentioned that they might get up to number four, because here's the thing with the New Orleans Saints. I think the Saints made this move with the Eagles because they want to move up.

Now, I'm not locked in with the fact that it's going to be a quarterback. I think I said on Monday, it could well be an offensive tackle that they're going forward to build around Javis Winston and the rest of that offense after losing to Ron Armstead. But if they make that trade, okay. And I don't think new Orleans made that trade without first talking to maybe the New York giants, number five and saying, and, you know, calling Joe Shane up and saying, Hey, Joe, hypothetically,

let's say we were to get picks 16 and 19. Would you entertain a deal for us moving up 16, 19 to five? They've probably put their finger on the pulse there. And I think that there's a chance that that ends up happening. But if Joe Shane says yes to that, there's nothing stopping the Saints from also going the next pick up to the New York Jets and saying, Hey, would you also do this? Because it's only more advantageous to the Saints, the higher up they get.

And of course, like some people are saying, well, you just have to get in front of Carolina. Well, okay. Well, Carolina has got the sixth pit. Maybe they're going to move up and jump you if you jump them, you know? So you never know. It's just the higher you get, the more likelihood you have to get the player you want. So I think that it's realistic to believe the saints have talked to the giants already, and there's a chance that they would talk to the jets. I think I agree with you. I think for as much as it would be really fun to push back on you and say, no, no, no, no, no. The chaos of what they could have would be, would be worth that. I think you're right. They do need premium picks.

However, what is a hall, a realistic hall that could make you say yes? Because in my head, I go, dude, if Jermaine Johnson makes it to 10, if Jameson Williams makes it to 16, let's get wild. You drafted Louis Scene at 19, and then you trade back into the back end of the first round for four first round picks and you get Boye Mafe. There's so much you could do with it, man. Like you said, it really starts with Jermaine at 10,

and then you get real interesting, right? It's really wide receiver at 16, where we'll assume Drake London's not there. We'll assume Garrett Wilson's not there. All right, I'll take Jamison Williams or Traylon Burks. No problem. No problem at all. And then once again,

19 becomes house money. I'm going to believe this, this team needs a linebacker really badly. Like I don't even, I would take Devin Lloyd there. And I know some people think I'm insane. I'd take Devin Lloyd at 19 and be like, all right,

cool. See on 35, pick 35. We'll be back on the clock. I would actually package 35 and get back into the first round. Again, you're right. You're a hundred percent right,

man. There's a lot you could do. It's, it's an interesting exercise. It's the challenge of, do you become attached with a blue, what you view as a blue chip player early challenge of do you become attached with a blue what you view as a blue chip player early or do you play you know more hands right without that that big role i think

it's it's really tough man and it's this isn't just we had this conversation over the show not as a jet specific conversation it's it can be had for multiple teams it's more a draft conversation of how do you view this class? And there will be teams that they don't view the blue chip like that. Once Hutchinson's gone and Icky's gone, they're like, yeah, we don't view Thibodeau that way. We don't view Trayvon Walker that way. This is a team that might not value corner that highly or safety where Sauce Gardner and Kyle Hamilton don't move the needle in that direction so man there's a lot of variables in that and you know what I like about this though I like and it's getting better in the NFL with how many trades we've already seen the creativity

from GMs to navigate the board it has really ramped up over the years sure it totally has I just wanted to throw this out to you because I know like it man you're a Jets, this is this is our wheelhouse anyways, talking about these hypothetical trades, what we would do. And this is so much of a part of the fun of the NFL draft. But you specifically are a Jets guy. So new. I knew that this would tug at the heartstrings a little bit and some of our listeners. So I had to throw it out there and watch you think about what is possible. Right, right, right. And also we we really do think the saints aren't done making moves so it's right you ask yourself where can they get in because if it's for a quarterback your original plan of the giants of five makes sense if it's

for a tackle the giants should not make that trade they should say no we're gonna take evan neal we're good sorry guys tough luck lose moreose more games. Like, that's just how it goes. So they would have to get to four. They'd have to get to four to the New York Jets. They'd have to get to three to the Texans. It's, you know, everybody always says, oh, trade up or trade back. Like, it's a given.

It's very difficult to pull off because some teams just don't want to find a dance partner. 100%. That's the draft, man. That's the draft. That's absolutely absolutely the draft let's get back to the guest mock draft series i'm going to recap the draft in a second tell you the guests are that we have on the show before i do that gotta remind you guys nfl se that's the promo code to get 25 off any pff subscription over at pff.com somebody just tweeted about somebody just tweeted at me the other day was asking about the promo code so So I know it works.

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$2,500 raffle for each qualifying trade that you make. You get one raffle into potentially win win over two grand which uh be nice nice little chunk of change for you for uh for finding a new game that you absolutely love and you maybe get 2500 for it sounds like a win-win to me that is jock market jock mkt.com backslash pff go check it out guys so so far in the guest mock draft series if you're watching on youtube you can see in the description but i'll recap it before we get to our guests jacksonville jaguars they took aiden hutchinson detroit lions trayvon walker houston texans kyle hamilton new york jets cave on tibeto new york giants charles cross carolina panthers evan neal new york giants sauce garner atlanta falcons jordan davis seattle seahawks

derrick stingley jr who just finished his pro day and performed very well i may add high four threes low four fours jumped 38 and a half inches in the vertical 10, two in the broad. You'll love to see it. New York jets also got Iki Aquano number 10, which is kind of crazy. And then just outside of the top 10 Washington commanders went Drake, London, Minnesota Vikings went Tyler Linderbaum. And that brings us up to number 13. We've got Drew Doherty for the Houston Texans picking the 13, Jeff Cerebic for the Baltimore Ravens at 14, Ben Solak friend of the show for the eagles at 15 and then nick underhill for the saints at number 16 i'm looking forward to it let's get it started right now here we go up to

number 13 overall for the second time in this guest mock draft series we have the houston texans on the clock joining us to talk about the Houston, Texas reflect on that Kyle Hamilton pick at number three, a little bit, and tell us a little bit of his perspective on what he thinks the Texans might do here at number 13. We have drew Doherty who works for the Texas themselves. So the man knows the inside of that building better than anybody can drew. I appreciate you coming on the podcast, man. Yeah. It's great to be with you. And, uh, you know, we were giggling about it off air, but McLe McLean took the guy. I would have taken it three, two. So I love John's train of thought and congrats to him on his retirement. I wonder if he's going to still be doing other

things though. Cause that guy is an institution. I'm from the city of Houston. I grew up here in the eighties and early nineties. No woman has, or could ever break my heart. Like the Houston Oilers did back in that, uh, seven year span of the run and shoot. And he was a guy that covered them. And, uh, I grew up reading his stuff and hearing him on sports talk radio shows, not sports talk radio. Cause that didn't exist back then, but there would be, you know, a random show at night. You'd always hear him talking about the Texans. And then it's been a real, you know, kind of dream come true to work with John, work alongside John.

He's been a guest on a lot of the shows that we do here with the Houston Texans. So congrats to him. But yeah, he took my guy, Kyle Hamilton, at three overall. I think that would be an outstanding choice. I don't care what he ran at his pro day. I don't care what he ran at the combine day i don't care what he ran at the combine i saw the dude make lots and lots and lots of plays for the fighting irish i think he's going to do that in the nfl i'm fine with taking a safety if he's that good at three overall so

i applaud that uh pick by john mcclain it's so funny you kind of bring up the john mcclain thing and just to give people a look behind the curtain on the show if you will i had reached out to drew to Drew and I was like, Hey, can we get Yon? And I originally, I wanted, I wanted to get Drew on. And then I wanted to have John on as well. So we reached out to both of them and Drew, thankfully you said that you could be a little bit flexible with picks when we reached out to John. John was like, yeah, I can, I can join you guys if we're recording it kind of this week. Cause it was a beginning of things. And we were we were like all right we'll get you a number three we didn't know that that was because he was retiring before we were going to get to number 13 so we were uh very blessed to be able to get him on there and i'm with you i don't i feel like john can't fully go away you mentioned he's an

institution yeah the legend i think it's his blood he'll be he'll do a little something here and there maybe it won't be full timetime for the Chronicle, like you said, but he's too good. He's too good at what he does to be able to walk away from it. Well, so we've got that pick at number three. You mentioned it, Kyle Hamilton. He went three in this guest mock draft. So now all eyes are on number 13, and that's why we got you on here.

I asked John this question, and I'm going to ask you kind of the same thing because it is a fascinating one. I love learning more information about it. It's what you've kind of learned from Nick Casario, because I feel like over the last couple of years, the Houston Texans have been a tough nut to crack. People just don't know exactly what they're doing and whether it's Jackie should be, or whether it's Nick Casario or whoever's been the head coach, whoever's the head coach for them. You're not exactly sure who's making the decisions, who's got the ultimate call, where things are.

And so John told us that it is Casario who is making the decisions in Houston, as it should be with him in the GMC. My question to you is, as somebody who's been around this organization very closely, what's some of the things that you maybe have learned from Casario about how he approaches the game or team building or things that he likes to emphasize? Just little nuggets that you could see, whether it's in the draft or free agency, guys that Casario himself might really hone in on. You know, in observing him over the last year and change, and then hearing him at a recent press conference say these words, I'm going to go down

swinging if I have to. I've seen him be very, very active in free agency on the waiver wire and via trade. As far as churning over this roster, he had to, it was a bad team in 2020. It was a bad team last year. When you lose 13 games, you're not a good team. And nobody's making any bones about that. They're trying to get better. And they do think they're on the upward trajectory, but this guy has been very aggressive. I mean, it doesn't matter if it was before the draft. It doesn't matter if it was during the draft. We saw him make a few trades during the draft weekend last year. And then since he's done it as well, he's used some of those later round picks to go out and acquire, uh, go, uh, acquire veterans.

Some of the moves didn't work out, but he's always going to try and make this roster better. And I think that's another thing you and I were talking about it off air, having multiple picks in the first round gives him a lot of ammo and a lot of flexibility to keep doing that. Does he stay at three and take a guy like Kyle Hamilton? I think, uh, if he had his druthers, he would move back a little bit and acquire another pick in the first round, get something in the second and the third, maybe even, you know, find a way to get another first round pick for next year. They've got two next year. They've got 11 total next year, but he could always, you know, add more to the mix,

I think. And I, I believe this is going to be a really good draft, like a really deep draft on the whole. Yeah. There's no sexy quarterback. That's a lock at number one overall, but man, there's a lot of great players that can really help you out all the way through to the bottom rounds, I think. And I believe he's going to be very aggressive again. Wouldn't stun me if he moves back from three or keeps it at three and moves back from 13 and does that, or Hey, even sneaks back up into the first round. If the Texans were to take the, the three and the 13 overall, I just think anything's in play with him based off of his aggressiveness in the transactions that he's done. And, and I think it's going to do here in the future. Yeah. So, I mean, they've got some extra day two picks as well, like you mentioned, but you know, we saw the Philadelphia Eagles just a couple of days ago with the new orleans saints

make a move to make sure that they've got chess moving power if you will in future years too to really continue to make sure that they have control of the draft and be able to do whatever they want whenever it is that they might want to get aggressive so you saying that casario could be in that boat as well that uh that makes a lot of sense and that's a good thing to keep in mind so i guess in relation to that who are some of your targets you think this team is going to look at i guess we'll just go positions that they would look at at number three now we'll get into number 13 and i'll ask you about number 13 and of course how this board fell in this guest mock draft but you mentioning casario having a lot of flexibility maybe wanting to move up down who knows i feel like who they might want to target or at least position groups

they might want to target might tell the tale of how probable that would be for them to move back so i'm just curious you know right off the bat what do you think the positions are going to be that they're going to look for up at the top at number three, or at least where, wherever that first first round pick is going to come from? I think just about everything is on the board there. I'd be stunned if they went quarterback, I'd be mildly surprised. I'd be surprised if they did running back or receiver.

But other than that, I think just about everything, offensive line, defensive line, linebacker maybe, and defensive backfield, they're all in play. I mean, the day Lovie Smith got hired, we had him on our show and we were talking with him and we asked him about the draft. And this was before he had said too, too much about, you know, evaluation of NFL draft hopefuls.

And he was like, you know what I've been doing the last few weeks when I haven't been interviewing for this job, I've been breaking down senior bowl tape. I love the technology. I love being able to, you know, evaluate these guys. It's an integral part of what I do as a head coach. It's, it's something that's in my ethos. You know, he's been to a bunch of pro days. He's going to be in Baton Rouge tomorrow for the LSU pro day. So he has been all about it. Loves the combine, loves the interview process there. And when we asked him, well, Hey, what might you be thinking about this year in the draft? I basically asked him the question you just asked me. And he said, Hey, everything's in play. If you tell me we need help here on this side of the ball or at this position, I'll agree with you. So I think it's really a broad brush.

And so to kind of get a little bit more narrowed down, I think some of these offensive linemen that are rated really, really highly like Ikea Quan or like Evan Neal, like Charles Cross, those guys are in play. I think at three, I think Hamilton is in play at three. I think the corners sauce Gardner, Derek Stingley, not necessarily in that order, but definitely in play at three. And then upfront, I mean, goodness, if you can get, if something were to happen and Aiden Hutchinson were to Hutchinson were to fall to you, I think that's, you know, an automatic almost, but some of these guys up front are also in play. There's really no wrong route

if you go with about eight different guys there, I think, at third overall. And that's why I think they're in a really good spot. If they move back a little bit, they still get somebody they want. Or if they just stay there, you're getting a good player that's going to change things and make you a lot better,

which is what this team needs. You got to upgrade the talent. That's what they're after this year. Yeah, no doubt about it. I think that those have been the target pools that we've been doing when we do mock drafts on this show is defensive line offensive line and then corner and then of course you throw in safety because you know if you're interested in safety at all you're gonna like kyle hamilton so i think those are certainly things that have been all on the board for us and if that's the case which you

know it sounds like asking you that's something i really wanted to do if that's the case then moving back could make a lot of sense you get some extra capital and you get a player that you want lovey smith and he's gone on casario has gone on record as saying hey whether or not we stay at three overall is a whole separate discussion and he he made a point to get that out there right after the season ended so you know he he planted that seed early early on in the process i am excited then man like there's this this is getting me more and more excited for what the possibilities could be with the texans at number three because like you know for example if the saints just picked up two two first round picks there at 16 and 19 we've heard about them maybe

wanting to get aggressive going to the top five maybe it's houston they find a home with which that'd be crazy houston would then pick 13, 16, 19. So, man, that would be wild. The possibilities are endless, especially with it sounds like the mindset that Casario has there. Let's go to the offense. You mentioned, okay, quarterbacks probably not going to be a need for this team. Where's the confidence level in Davis Mills?

Because obviously he was not a premium pick the year prior. And so he goes into this season, you you know it's a little bit of a whirlwind year but he's the guy at the end of it and we go okay well he was just a stop gap kind of a player but then we looked at this quarterback class and we go that's okay it's not world beaters it's not gotta have them franchise kind of guys and now it seems like they're very comfortable with davis mills do you think that that confidence comes from how Mills played and conducted himself in the building? Or is it more of a reflection on this quarterback class and what they might think of it? I think it's the former. They really liked what they saw from him, both in

the building, like you said, and on the field. I mean, he really improved by leaps and bounds and Lovey Smith has gone on record as saying, Hey, hey listen we're not anointing anybody a starter especially a first year guy in february in march but he also said i've seen a lot of this guy i've seen a lot of davis mills i've seen his bad days i've seen his good days and he really likes what the future holds for him you know one thing that you really need to remember about this this texans team is it's going to have a new offense. Pep Hamilton is running things. Pep Hamilton was the quarterback's coach last year and is working and has worked closely with Davis mills. They've already started installing stuff. And that's about a month or so ago when the move got made and pep was, was made the guy. So

Davis mills is the typical gym rat always in the building. He's working out. We've seen him on Twitter and Instagram over the last few days. He's thrown with some of his receivers. Nico Collins is one of them. That's another guy. Nick Casario got very aggressive, moved up in the draft last year to get. So they are very confident in what they have with him. Like I said, nobody's sending him to Canton just yet,

but they like what they have in him. And they think there's a lot of room to grow and there's good things to come with Davis Mills. And I'll say this, he's a very, very confident guy. I mean, and he had the same level of confidence last September when he came into the game and faced a pretty nasty Browns defense there in the early September days,

as he was in December when he lit up the chargers, a really good team and had, you know, his career day and a young career that guy never waivers. And it's, it's really interesting and fascinating to see in somebody that young, somebody that inexperienced he's unflappable. So I'm, I'm fascinated by what the future holds for him. Yeah, certainly everybody who's around the Texans talks about how much they believe in him and hearing things like that obviously makes sense as well. Before we put you on the clock for pick number 13,

there's a question in a situation with the Texans at their receiver position that I think is a good transition into what you might do here at number 13 because there's only one wide receiver off the board here in this guest mock drafts and it's Drake London. You got everybody else on the board, Traylon Burks, Chris Olave,

Garrett Wilson, Jameson Williams. All these guys are still on the board. How much of a need do the Texans believe receiver is for them, especially when it comes to maybe making a splash in the first round for one of these guys at the top? I know that basically for every team in the NFL, they could have wide receiver on the board in rounds two, three, four, whatever it is, because they're always trying to look better in that regard. But do they think the wide receiver might be enough of a need for them

in the first round? Brandon cooks has been reported that he's sticking around in Houston, unless they get an offer where they're absolutely blown away. It looks like he's going to stick around at least for another year, but we look beyond Brandon cooks. It's maybe to like, but not proven talent. So where is the finger on the pulse with wide receiver on this team right now? Yeah. Well, to address one part, I know that the Texans love Brandon Cooks and he has been outstanding since he came here. 2000 yard seasons in each of the two years he played, played with different quarterbacks. The guy's pumped out thousand yard seasons. It's only been

twice that he's not his rookie year. And then a year, I think a few years before the Texans career started, maybe a year before, but he's been very, very consistent. I think he's probably the most underrated guy in the league. No Pro Bowls on his ledger. That's almost criminal in my mind. He is an excellent player, excellent guy to throw to if you're a rookie quarterback, if you're Tom Brady, as we saw. So he's somebody that's very, very reliable and an excellent piece. Now, that being said, whether he's here or not, if the Texans draft board has an Olave really, really high or Drake London really, really high above the other pieces, I think they'll stick to the board and go that way because that guy that they might think is there

could be a playmaker. So I don't think having Cooks on or off the roster affects that idea. I think they're trying to add as much talent as they can, as much high-level talent as they can. And if they stay at 13 and receiver at that spot, the guy that they love the most or the player that they love the most or the player that they love the

most is a receiver. I think that's the route they'll go. And it wouldn't stun me to see that at all. So let's put you on the clock here at number 13. You know, we have Kyle Hamilton already in hand from pick number three. You mentioned offensive line could be a need for them. Unfortunately, all of the big three guys are already off the board. You mentioned corner. We've got Derek Stingley off the board, sauce Garner off the board. So those two are gone as well. Receiver, like I mentioned, Drake London's the only one who's off the board, but then defensive line, okay?

We've got Aiden Hutchinson, Trayvon Walker, Kayvon Thibodeau off the board, Jordan Davis also off the board. But that's my draft crush. Oh yeah, would you have gone Davis here if he was on the board? I mean, this guy. He, he's a unicorn, man. Everything he did at the Combine, phenomenal, like all that stuff.

But, oh, yeah, he won the Outland Trophy. Oh, yeah, he's the Bidneric Award winner. I mean, he backed it up on the National Champion Defense. And there are folks saying, oh, well, he even wasn't utilized to his fullest potential and probability. And he won those two awards. Right, right. Goodness, it's like alarm bells going off how great a player this is.

Right, right. Yeah, I have a huge draft crush on him, and I was very saddened to see him off the board. So he went eight overall to the Atlanta Falcons. Guys that are still on the board from the defensive line, we've got Devontae Wyatt, we've got George Karloftis, we've got Jermaine Johnson from Florida State. Like, all those guys still on the board from the defensive line we got davante wyatt we've got george carloftis we've got jermaine johnson from florida state like all those guys still on the board so i'm curious with it following the way that it is here at number 13 who would you be taking where would you be going

it's very hard very very hard you got a couple of good choices here you really really good you got i think they're i think guys that are really going to change you know the teams their teams they wind up going to for the better olave oh man that's another guy I kind of have a crush on. And I'm, I'm like tempted to go with Jermaine Johnson on the other side of the ball pass rush. He'd look good, but I got to go with the beef Euro, some feta cheese on the salad. George Karloftis out of Purdue.

The Greek pair them up. Let's put them opposite. Put them opposite Jonathan Grenard. Let's bolster that pass rush. Let's get off after the quarterback. He's a durable guy. Grenard has been excellent. You know, he had eight and a half sacks last year and got more action, but he was in and out of the lineup, had some injuries,

and hopefully he gets through that and he's got a full season. But either way, you pair him up with Karloftis, and now on the interior, you've got a guy like Malik Collins, who's done a lot of stuff for the Texans. He'll get another year in the system, kind of a system that fits him, that Lovie Smith defense up front. And Lov smith said it you know the defensive line needs to be the engine that drives this defense so let's get some pass

rush ability he seems like carloft is just a safe safe pick he's a guy that's really going to be above average for you a plus for you for a long long time and he's a you know a good person it seems like in the locker room give me carloftis let's go man you're not going to get any pushback from me and you wouldn't you wouldn't from connor if he was on here as well because we like carloftis we think carloftis is a good player you know it's funny because some people might look at him and say like okay he's not the freakiest athlete when it comes to maybe don't always need to be or bend but if you watch the tape there's some times where he

was getting the Aiden Hutchinson treatment he's getting like triple teamed out there and so that just goes to show you how much other teams were emphasizing we've got to stop that guy so I and I think that there is absolutely merit behind that and I like Karloff this man so I really like that selection there wow back-to-back defensive picks you got kyle hamilton at number three you got george karloff this at number 13 lovey smith can be a happy head coach i'll tell you that going going back-to-back defense there yeah but that's the beauty of this is you know i don't have the texans draft board in front of me neither does mclean and it's just there's so many options and it's nice to have and be in a spot and really it's spots now with three and 13 to

have those options. I mean, we're, we're kind of like shell shocked over the last four years you had in 2019, Titus Howard picked at 19, but really you go 18, 2021 with no first round picks. And it's just, it's good to be back in the mix and talking about top end talent before the draft, because boy, it was tough it was tough the other years i was just gonna say and like you mentioned doesn't stop after this year either they get a lot of control they get to the texans get to talk about a lot of really great prospects for the next couple of years which always makes draft season a lot of fun go follow him on twitter doherty drew at doherty drew uh he and watch all of his stuff over at the houston texans he does a

lot of great work hosting uh houston texans tv over there true thank you so much for joining me man this was an absolute blast back-to-back defensive picks you're making your head coach a very happy man all right trey always good talking with my friend here we go to number 14 of the guest mock draft series it It is the Baltimore Ravens. And to join us, he is the Ravens guy. Connor and I were talking about it before the show. If you want to know Baltimore Ravens news, you go to Jeff Zarebik from The Athletic

because he is the guy who is covering that team as well as anybody possibly can. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us here on this podcast. My pleasure, guys. Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate you guys having me. So when you look at the Ravens, obviously, you know, they've got, they've got Lamar Jackson. They've got the former MVP. They're one of the most electric teams in the league on paper

missed out on the playoffs last year, eight and I just below that 500 mark. And there's a lot of things that go into it. But my question for you, Jeff, is just as somebody who covered that team week in and week out, do the Ravens still believe that they are right there, that they are close to being a team that's going to win that division, being a team that can compete for a Super Bowl? As the AFC has gotten stronger, where do the Ravens believe their place is within all of those really good teams in that conference?

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, the question of the Ravens offseason, and I don't think their decision makers are kidding themselves and into believing they don't need to make more improvements. They don't need to fill more holes. But the kind of the question of their offseason is how much do you put on injuries last year? Now, they had a historical run of bad injury luck. I mean, they you know, you do you watch all the metrics and you look at all the metrics and they had it as bad as anyone's had it in years. And they're hopeful all those guys will get back. You know, Ronnie Stanley and Marcus Peters and J.K. Dobbins and Gus Edwards and Nick Boyle.

I mean, the list goes on. Justice Hill and how much, their biggest additions this offseason, we're always going to be getting those guys back healthy. But how much can you just say, OK, we're getting these guys back healthy. What more do we need to do? I mean, these are additions. So the question is how much they've improved just by getting those guys back and what else they still need to do. I think it's probably somewhere in between. I think they believe they are a contender and they are right there,

but I don't think they're kidding themselves here, guys. I think they know what's gone on around them. I think they know there's some deficiencies on their roster right now. Heck, I think you could make a case right now that they have more major holes at this time of year than they've had in a little while right now. So they have a lot of work to do. There's no question about that, and I think they understand that. So looking at this defense right now, which, like you said,

if they can get healthy, that secondary can be really, really good, especially with the addition of Marcus Williams. They obviously go through a coaching change. And with Wink Martindale, we're always told and we see it man coverage corners, tons of pressure packages. Do you one think there will be a little bit of change in philosophy on defense? And two, how would that impact how they start to revamp a defensive unit that we think there's going to be some draft pieces, you know, really spent on this group?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean mean a week ago i talked to owner steve bishotti at the owners meetings and he said he would be absolutely fine with an all defensive draft now i don't think they'll go that far but i think we'd all be shocked if you know they have 10 picks i i think we'd be shocked if six or seven of them don't go to the defense that's how much they understand they need to sort of you know uh they need to remodel this defense i think they've gotten old and old in some spots they've gotten thin in some spots um you know mike mcdonald their new defensive coordinator

the majority of his coaching career has been in balt with Wink Martindale and, and, you know, Dean Peace before him. So he's learned in Baltimore. So I don't expect him to make drastic changes. You know, I think, you know, it's still John Harbaugh's team and the defensive philosophy is still going to be in tandem with what John Harbaugh believes, how he wants to play defensive football, but there's no question. He'll have his wrinkles, you know. And, you know, I think the big thing here is, you know,

how can we create pressure without blitzing? That's been the criticism in Baltimore for the last couple of years. You know, Wake Martindale's defense finished with good numbers before this past year. But can we get to the passer more without blitzing? That's what they need to do. And, and I mean, look, Humphrey and Marcus Peters are a good start. They're, they're fine at safety. Now the addition of Marcus Williams would be huge, but you need more than two corners. We know that that's historically a position

where they get the most injuries at. It seems every year the Ravens seem to lose two or three corners. So there's a lot they have to do there. They need a middle linebacker or an inside linebacker next to Patrick Queen. Their interior defensive line is completely under construction. And then you can make a case that their biggest need and their entire roster is edge rusher. So there's questions there at every level.

There's no doubt. I'm sure Mikeald will have an impact on kind of how they reshape things i don't expect as i said earlier major changes but there's no question there'll be some differences and it'll have to start with them being able to create more pressure up front honing in on the defensive line there you brought it up you know it was a it was kind of a strange situation where we thought that zadaria smith was going to come back to baltimore and sign that contract he doesn't he ends up going to minnesota uh it just if you could walk us through exactly maybe like how that happened how that all fell

through and then a follow-up to that does them going after zadaria smith and then ultimately not getting him kind of hinted the fact that they're going to be very heavily involved in this edge rush market, potentially even win the first round of here at pick number 14. Yeah. You know, in answering that's your second question first, I think everyone will be surprised. I think it even would be, it even is a position where you could see them double dip at, you know, maybe take one in the first or second and then go, you know, they have five fourth round picks and they're not all at the end of the end of the round either. They've a very early one from the giants and, you know, so they'll, they'll have plenty

of ammunition. I would be, you know, a little surprised if we didn't see them take two head rushers here. I mean, you look at their current depth chart there and they feel good about a Daffy away. I mean, he sort of, I don't want to say hit the rookie wall towards the end, but he did more than flash. He had some big games for them and they feel like he's definitely going to be a kind of a cornerstone piece for them, but he's coming off shoulder surgery and a guy, you know, on the other edge ties Bowser is not really a dynamic pass rusher, but he's a quality, versatile linebacker. But he tore his Achilles in their last game.

So that's mid-January. So that's a quick recovery. Beyond them, you know, you have Jalen Ferguson, who's been a disappointment. Dalen Hayes, who only played like four snaps as a rookie. So there are so many questions. They could use to sign another veteran and draft one or two. You know, they were hoping Z'Darrius Smith would be that guy. You know, they they reached an agreement with Z'Darrius Smith.

The details got out. And I think some people thought it was a pretty, you know, weak contract, you know, that he could have gotten more on the open market. I think he heard from many of those people uh and he started getting cold feet you know so they went back to the ravens with some adjustments they would like to see in the contract um and the ravens anteed up a little more money not you know not a ton more but were willing to to to you know kind of help his concerns a little bit and change the deal around a little bit and they the deal around a little bit. And they agreed to that, but then he had cold feet again. He still wasn't, he just wasn't feeling it at that point. And at that point, after two verbal agreements, the Ravens weren't

going to play ball any longer with him. And they both sides sort of just agreed to move on. Um, but it, it, it, it hurt because you look at the pass rusher market and, you know, you have a lot of guys out there. You have a lot of over 30 guys that, you know, in a perfect world, maybe they get you six to eight sacks, you know, the, the Trey flowers is, and the, you know, Hughes from Buffalo and maybe re-signing Justin Houston. And I could keep going, obviously clownies out there too. Jason Pierre-Paul. So there's a ton of these guys. But can you just pencil one of those guys in there and say, oh, we've significantly improved our pass rush. How much do those guys have left? So I think they have to look early

in the draft. They have to get a guy who's ready to come in and week one and make an impact at that position. So one question on the offense, which I don't want to say looks complete, but you can definitely see everything patched up pretty well. Obviously, J.K. Dobbins is going to be back. They're going to use their full backfield. Obviously, we know about Lamar Jackson and the Mark Andrews connection. My question for you is a lot of this receiving production was between Hollywood Brown and Mark Andrews,

and a lot of that is because their first round pick last year in Rashad Bateman got off to an injured start when he came back to produce. Are the expectations for him this year to be a at least borderline number one that they sit back and go, we don't need to make another significant investment in this wide receiver room? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right there. I think they feel like he's a candidate to take a huge step forward. He's been spending the offseason working out with Lamar Jackson and they've been, you know, doing a lot of individual stuff because they just didn't have a whole lot of time in the training camp. He came back and played a little, kind of getting his feet wet. And then, you know, Lamar just didn't practice a whole lot

because of illness and injury. So they just – this was a big offseason for them to get to kind of develop a better rapport. And the Ravens are pleased that he's done that. They've, you know, kind of taken that process seriously. Everybody from Eric DaCosta to owner Steve Bishotti to coach John Harbaugh have basically expressed confidence in this receiver group.

You know, they feel like Marquise Brown and Bateman. DuVernay was a Pro Bowl kick returner. But, you know, they've long wondered why he's not getting more involved. And, you know, they feel like Tylan Wallace, even a guy that they thought they were lucky to get in the fourth round last year, will take the next step. I think they'll add at some point, guys, whether that's a veteran on the cheap or it seems like there's so many talented receivers. It would be a missed opportunity not to at least bring in another one at some point. But, you know, they've drafted six receivers in the last three drafts.

No other team has done that in the NFL. At some point, you've got to let these guys play. You've got to let Duvernay play and Prochet play and Tylan Wallace play. And obviously, you've got Bateman and Marquise Brown at the center of that. So I would be surprised if they're willing to put a major asset in a receiver, an asset I mean by cap space or, you know, a first round pick. But I think they'll add to that group at some point and maybe just kind of bring in a complimentary guy, maybe a big physical guy that sort of gives them another dimension that

they don't really currently have from the receiving group. Tom Wallace is my guy. So I got, I got big hosts for him. I hope that they do kind of like let him play out and get to see what they have in him. So let's put you on the clock here, Jeff, at number 14. You mentioned defensive line, specifically edge rusher is something they may look at. When you look at how this guest mock draft went, we had three edge rushers go out the first four picks,

Aiden Hutchinson, Trayvon Walker, Kayvon Thibodeau. We even had Jordan Davis go off the board. And then we just had George Karloftis on the board, but there is still one really good edge rusher. I'm very curious if you end up selecting him, but there's a lot of ways that you mentioned the Baltimore Ravens could go to make sure that they fill the holes to compete in this AFC. So if the board falls this way and you were on the clock,

who are you taking for the Ravens here at 14? I'd be taking that guy. You're referencing Florida state, outside linebacker, Jermaine Johnson. Um, you know, we, we already discussed the need of pass rusher, so we don't need to go over that. Uh, but looking specifically at the player, um, you know, he's a guy that is productive, was very productive in college, led the ACC and sacks tackles for losses. Ravens flipped the script a little last year with the OA pick. He wasn't, you know, he didn't really put up numbers

his final season as Penn State. But historically, the Ravens have always valued productivity as a pass rusher. You know, they overlooked concerns back in the day about Terrell Suggs' pro day and said he was extremely productive. We're going to overlook that stuff and take him. And that obviously worked out. We've seen it in other areas where they've prioritized. day and said he was extremely productive we're going to overlook that stuff and take him and that obviously worked out we've seen it in other areas where they've prioritized you know a guy

like Matthew Judon was very productive but he did it at a small school and and Jalen Ferguson was very productive so they typically look for that production Johnson was extremely productive he plays hard he's a physical guy. He can set an edge. And the Ravens still prioritize, you know, edge setters in the run game. I think they would be thrilled if they had an opportunity to select him. You know, Trevor Penning is attractive. You know, they really want to get another contingency plan for left tackle Ronnie Stanley. But I don't think you could turn away from an impact edge rusher.

And if he fell to him, I think that would be a big coup for them. All right, there we go. Jermaine Johnson, Connor, finally off the board here. It feels like a finally at 14, but this is a great, this is a great spot. A phenomenal spot. I think when you look at Jermaine Johnson, this feels like the furthest he can make it an excellent fit with Baltimore under that coaching staff. And obviously, you know, like Jeff has been hinting at, this is going to be a big need for them to get a little bit younger up front. Besides obviously away, this would be a young piece that can be there for a long time. Jeff,

this was awesome. Incredible breakdown on where Baltimore is at right now. Everybody go and read Jeff stuff on the athletic. There was no better Ravens coverage. We appreciate your time. I enjoyed it guys thanks for having me all right here we go pick number 15 now almost halfway done with the guest mock draft series it is the Philadelphia Eagles and as some of you expected for our guests here for this selection we have on with us from the ringer NFL show from the ringer nfl show from the ringer nfl draft show and you know maybe from a little

old podcast called locked on nfl draft we have the one and only benjamin solak here ben i'm not contractually obligated to ask you this but i will anyways how are you my friend everything's delicious trev thanks for asking been a long time people were upset i didn't bring that to the new show but you gotta let you gotta let some of the the old traditions die you gotta let them live where they lay uh and so everything is delicious welcome inside all like good john also hi connor sorry you're here no i'm very happy to be on the other side of the other side of the coin for this one here listen we had joe caporoso on before we even had ben on so we got so we had we had honors podcast uh co-host on before we even had they didn't give me the hat memo i got lucky i just want everybody to be aware

of this i i wore a hat on my own when i logged on they both had hats on and i breathed a sigh of relief so ben let's start it off here obviously i know you got takes you got emotions you got words to say about the philadelphia eagles and you know they were kind of the the the talk of the town if you will at the heart of this draft with three picks in the first round now they make a deal with new orleans saints they kind of get to spread that out a little bit more connor and i talked about how we kind of really like that move right because it's it's taking the trade back that they did the year before and basically making sure that you have three years that you're benefiting off of that so now two first round selections the first one here at number 15 first of all my question to you is what'd you think of the trade when it went down immediate reactions what they

got back for it all that jazz yeah uh we've we've had how i rose him as the general manager of eagles for a long time and so when he was sitting there with three first round picks in a bad class overall and especially a bad quarterback class, everybody was like, yeah, there's no way he makes three things. It just, he's not going to do it. He is, he is far too oriented on, on future value. And he, and he's so much of a, of a, of a gamesman of a trader. He loves to move around in the draft and he knows he has job security, right? Like why don't more GMs trade for future picks?

Cause we know future picks are undervalued. It's because GMs don't know they're going to be the guy making that pick, right? Job security is a really hard thing to come around in the league, how he's got job security. And I know this because he's drafted like two pro bowlers in the last nine years, he's still got his job. So we're chilling. You know what I mean? He ain't going anywhere. So he can make that trade into that next year and know that he's going to be the GM to, to make that pick. And so it always made sense that the Eagles were going to try to get future first. They were trying to get future capital after they missed out on the veteran quarterback market, because they want to get a competitor for Jalen Hurts. They want to get an improvement on Jalen Hurts

before his rookie contract expires. And this probably isn't the class to do it. The way the draft board has fallen to me here is a little bit, maybe now possible. But in general, this isn't the class to do it. The way the draft board has fallen to me here is a little bit maybe now possible, but in general, this isn't the class to do it. And so they're going to go get a first round pick next year's draft and position themselves to move up for one of the 2023 quarterbacks or play on the veteran market again and make a trade for a veteran who becomes available.

So this was kind of always a read on Howie Roseman, the way he was going to behave. And he got a really, I think, good deal from the Saints in terms of getting that future value. So this is what he does well. That's why he stalls his job. So what stands out to me with this team, Ben, is the writing on the wall or the elephant in the room

that it feels like they always are dipping their toes in the water of maybe getting another quarterback, right? No matter what Jalen Hurts does. There's been, you know, he was obviously very solid last year. There was highs, there was lows, but I think we're at the point where he's almost outperformed expectations of what a lot of people thought he would ever be. Yet here we are.

We've heard or we did hear for a while some Deshaun Watson rumblings, which tells you internally they think there's an upgrade to be had. Now this trade where they're not directly going out and saying, oh, you know, we're going to look at quarterbacks next year, but you can feel there's an insurance element here. What do you think their belief is in Jalen Hurts right now? Is this just truly a as-you-go situation? Like, we'll see what happens, but we're always ready to move on or move on to a bigger option?

It is as-you-go. I think it's a unique position in terms of like a bridge quarterback in the league that we've seen over the last couple of years. And there's two reasons for that. One is because of Philadelphia's investment in the quarterback position, right? Like nobody thought they were going to invest in quarterback off of Wentz's 2019 season, which it wasn't his best year, but they had just given him a huge extension. He had the MVP caliber year in 2017, whatever. Like they had what was perceived to be at the time, a stronger quarterback landscape and still invested in Jalen Hurts at the time with Wentz. So unless the Eagles quarterback is blatantly, obviously the guy, it seems like this team is going to continue to bring in alternatives and

it's going to continue to push buttons at quarterback too. As Roseman said, when they drafted Hurts, we want to be obsessed with the quarterback position. We, we know team in the league better understands the value of QB too. We traded Kevin Cobb. We traded Sam Bradford. We won a Superbowl with Nick Foles. We know it matters. So independent of anything Hertz is or does, so long as he's not Tom Brady, the Eagles are going to invest in quarterback because that's what they do. The other reason that this is a unique situation is because Hertz has gotten better in six consecutive seasons, which just doesn't happen, right? Hertz's work ethic and his character, right?

Which are buzzwords that get thrown around a lot during the draft cycle. But for some select few guys really do mean something. His work ethic and his character have led to this guy. Like he could not throw the football, his freshman year of Alabama. You guys watched, I watched, he was nowhere near an NFL caliber quarterback.

And they didn't want him to even worse. Right. He got better at throwing the football. He went to Oklahoma. He got to a year with Lincoln Riley and whatever Lincoln Riley does with his guys is obviously to their benefit. He got to Philadelphia. He improved over the four games that he started. He was better in year two than he ever was in year one. You don't,

you watch Jalen Hurts just year two last year and you go, okay, it's like starter caliber, but it's not amazing. You have to run this quarterback run offense, whatever. It's fine. Like it's, it's a bridge starter level. But if you watch the last five years of Dan Hurts, you go, Oh, let's let him keep doing this. If he, if every rep we give him every starting opportunity, we give him, he's going to keep getting better. We can play this leash really, really long. And because he has that, that wonderful character because the locker room loves him. And because he's such a, a job oriented me first, I'm responsible sort of guy.

You can ride that rollercoaster indefinitely because you're not really going to lose the locker room. They're not going to be like, Hey, go get us a real contender. They want to play for this guy. And so Hertz really has set the Eagles up very, very nicely to play quarterback as slowly as they would like to make these trades into the future. Wait for the veteran market to come to you. Wait for the real guy.

They obviously eventually are going to run out of his rookie contract, but Hertz gives them a very unique landscape in terms of this long, like we always say, Lee, you either have the quarterback or you don't. Right now, it's you either have the quarterback or you don't, or you're the Philadelphia Eagles. And you just kind of get to tread water with this really fun guy who's great to root for and is getting better. So they're in a great situation with him right now.

What do we think about the offensive weapons that this team currently has you know you pretty freaking bad trev well i was gonna set it up a little bit a little bit nicer than that but obviously they don't have zach ertz anymore jalen rager picks not looking great they've got davante smith who they need to feed the ball to a lot more they have dallas goddard you would think is their top tight end right but maybe they'll get some depth in there as well when the Eagles had three first round picks it was basically a foregone conclusion they are picking a skill player on offense like they are going to get themselves a receiver who can help out Jalen Hurts now one less first round pick in there do you still think they're going to prioritize and really hone in on getting some sort of pass catcher here whether

it's at 15 or 18 all right eagles receivers under contract in 2023 so this is next next year not this coming year next year davante smith jalen rager who is unplayable quez watkins who they're they're really stoked like quez watkins baby let Watkins, baby. That's a freaking go. Sixth round pick out of Southern Miss a couple years ago. And John Hightower. So they got four receivers. I would argue. They have wide receiver one, wide receiver four,

and wide receiver five. They think Quez is like wide receiver three. On a good day. Yeah, it's pretty rough. So that's with J.J. I think a wide side, Zach Pascom, Greg Ward, all on expiring contracts. Don't say that name. Don't bring up.

It's a rough name. Don't bring up. Yeah, it's a rough name. Don't bring up. The Eagles have drafted a receiver in the first two rounds in three consecutive years. I think a white side in 2019, Jalen Rager in 2020, Devontae Smith in 2021. It seems like they finally got one right in Devontae Smith. I'm here to tell you with only two first round picks, I would still say it's the most likely position they draft in round one. Okay.

Because the only positions weaker on this team right now are linebacker, cornerback and safety. And you want to know what positions Howie Roseman just doesn't give a hoot about linebacker, quarterback and safety. And it has historically been this way corner a little bit different, but it would be interesting to see because this is now we, we saw one year of this Jonathan Gannon defense and it simply needs good back seven players to work and Eagles didn't have them.

So there's definitely like a power struggle and not looking like a bad way, but like a, this defense needs these players. This front office doesn't prioritize these players. What are they going to do early? Sort of a question that we don't really know the answer to, but in terms of what Roseman has historically valued, the weakest position on this team is wide receiver. And so I would expect them to make another round one around two pick and probably round one pick at receiver, especially with the way we expect the board to fall where these guys start going in the teens that's where the eagles are so i would guess they're round one receiver again are we at the point where you just think that's never going to change because when

they did have three first round mocks there was a lot of times i would put a devin lloyd right now obviously there even even earlier before he tested and you know his testing doesn't really move him for me but I know for some people it will but besides the point you know I'd put him with one of those three first round picks and a lot of Eagles fans were like I love this it's it's long overdue but then a lot of them understandably understandably are like it'll just never happen do you think this is a because haven't they had problems there where you think at some point that it's worthy of an investment? I don't know how many times you can be burned by something and go.

It's like not to bring everything back to the Jets. The Jets haven't had an edge pass rusher since John Abraham. Last time they had double digit sacks was Abraham, right? Wilkerson, but that is a blip on the wrist. Yeah, it was kind of defensive tackle, defensive edge rusher. Yes. So, yes, it's the same thing to me where I'm like, this has been a catastrophic issue for you.

When are you ever going to change as a franchise at that approach? And it's crazy to me because Howie's just been the guy there. It's not even like there's different regimes in place. So, long, sure. Do you think this will ever change? Nope. I think if it's going to change, this is the defensive coordinator who's going to make it happen.

Jonathan Gannon is the Eagles DC. He was under Matt Eroflus when he was the Colts defensive coordinator for the last three or four years. Before that, he was brought into the league under Mike Zimmer. He was brought in by Spurrier, but then he attached himself to Zimmer.

Two places that care about linebacker, man. Exactly. Both teams run too high stuff. G both, both teams run too high stuff, right? Gannon's trying to run too high stuff. Ask any Eagles fans where the safeties were last year. They're like, I don't know. They were off the screen. Eagles were lined up like 25 yards of depth of two deep safeties.

It was a nightmare. If you want to make two deep safeties work, you better have a linebacker who can cover right with Zim. And you also need a solution to being light in the box with Zimmer. That solution was we're going to run stunts, twist games. We're going to be nuts up front. We're having Anthony Barr who can play linebacker and defensive end, which Eagles now have their Hassan Redick.

I got him in free agency and there were leaks to reporters that he might play the Sam role, right? That's that bar role. Okay. So cool. But Zimmer also had Eric Kendricks, pretty good player. Don't know if you've heard of him. Played for the linebacker. Runs around a little bit. Go to the Colts. Darius Leonard in the second round.

Don't know if you've heard of him. He's a $95 million contract. Pretty good player. You need this Mike linebacker to be able to cover. Run that pole, right? Run between those two deep safeties and be able to cover that middle of the field. Eagles last year had TJ Edwards. All right?

This is a young man from Wisconsin who wears 57. This is not what we need in terms of coverage backers. This year they got TJ Edwards. Okay. They wanted to get a linebacker. They got because you're white and played like outside linebacker safety hybrid role for the chargers. And again, that's a role that's kind of important to the Eagles. They need that overhang player, make this too high stuff work, but they still don't have the middle linebacker. So the question is, are you going to prioritize this position?

No, you're not going to prioritize it with a first round pick. A, because Roseman doesn't. And B, because Leonard was a second round pick. Kendricks was, I think, a second round pick, I'm pretty sure. Fred Warner was a third round pick. They're going to go there day two. And I think they're going to try to snipe their guy. And I think they're going to believe that that is an approach that's been tenable across the league. That then

becomes a developmental thing. Roseman's going to hopefully draft the guy Gannon likes, and then it becomes Gannon's responsibility to get that dude good quick, which if you're chasing a Darius Leonard or Fred Warner model, you're chasing smoke, but this guy was on staff when Leonard happened. So hopefully he's got something in terms of bringing that guy along. So give me Chad mama out of Wyoming. Right. That makes sense. Yeah. I would have told you, give me Quay Walker out of Georgia a couple of weeks ago. Apparently Quay is going to go around one now. So I don't think they're going to take him, but right.

Give me your Chad mama out of Wyoming. Give me your Troy Anderson out of Montana state. Right. Just like absolute freakazoid athlete, put them in the middle and just hopefully have one linebacker who can cover a guy that's the only way this defense works so you're hoping that gannon kind of melts the ice there a little bit such that they spend a day to pick on an athlete they did this a couple years ago with the kid out of colorado um davion taylor did not work but they got to go back to the well and get that guy developed break him along and then hopefully have an actual player in the second level so let's put you on the clock here at number 15 you know you did a good job breaking down a lot of the things that they might

do and then something a lot of things they won't you don't think that they won't do but as you very well know ben this exercise is about letting you be the one in control so if the board fell this way who would you be taking for the philadelphia e, given all the options that they have here? I was sitting real hard on that you instead of on what I would do, because what I would do is certainly not what they would do. You told us in the pre-show, by the way, people, because we always try to be as transparent as possible on this show. Connor and I asked Ben what his pick was going to be before the show started, and Ben immediately started a rant about three or four different guys.

Me? No. And we did some of the pod before the pod which is just a cardinal sin but ben was like okay i'm gonna talk myself into whoever i'm going to select i don't even know yet so this is this is his live reaction we don't have any of this pre-panned so there you go ben with the board like this the players that i'm tempted by are one malik willis uh i told you the eagles love the quarterback position i told you they want improvement upon jalen hurts uh malik to me as a player that i comped jalen hurts but the league seems you know the ceilings obviously this guy had the league seems to value in a first round way uh the eagles bringing in that sort of a a project makes a lot

of sense especially because they have hurts in the building to kind of like you know marry the development a little bit so he interests me garrett wilson wider steve of ohio state talked about him. Traylon Burks, wide receiver of Arkansas. I really like him more than Wilson. I think they'll like him a lot as well. Devontae Wyatt is the other one. And we didn't really talk about this.

He's a defensive tackle out of Georgia. The Eagles starting defensive tackles are Javon Hargrave and Fletcher Cox. Both are only under contract for 2022. Both currently account for, I want to say it's like $32 million combined against the cap. Only one's coming back, baby. And they have, they have Millen Williams as like a developmental guy, but in general, they, they do need a defensive tackle. So I can see why here I can see one of the receivers on this board. I'm taking, I'm taking Malik, right? I'm not letting him. If I have a quarterback question and I have a guy with this level of talent

and I believe in my bridge. I believe in my ability with Jalen hurts to let Malik develop on his own timeline. Maybe he starts game one, maybe he starts week nine, maybe he starts week one next year, whatever it is that he needs. I think I have a guy who can hold it down, got me to the playoffs last year and whatever. Yeah. I mean, maybe I am how he rose and pilled, but I would, I value quarterback too much to see a guy of his talent at 15 and not take him when my quarterback future isn't established.

So I will take Malik Willis and God hope he's good. Okay, there we go. Connor, we just talked about this a couple of days ago, wondering when quarterback was going to come off the board in this guest mock draft.

It ends up being here at number 15 to the Eagles. What do you think? It takes a brave soul, right? Because once this is the uh the mock drafters what they want to do not what they think will happen so i think there's been a lot of fear of the blowback especially in the top 10 of taking a quarterback in this class that's been billed as an underwhelming quarterback class but ben's thought process makes a ton of sense you have the saints right after them so

you're not sitting there going yeah maybe he'll be there at 18 and we just keep adding quarterbacks you go no we believe in this guy and we're going to have another chance at 18 to maybe get the wide receiver or defensive lineman you want so that thought process just makes a ton of sense and i'm glad to see that slide stop uh because realistically malik willis will not make it outside of the top 15 right and my favorite part is I just traded with the Saints. We just traded with the Saints, right? We gave them 16. They probably want a quarterback.

I'm here at 15. Like, yeah, I should have got 15 from me, baby. Played you. He got him. He came in. Thank you, Mickey Loomis. Ben, before we get you out of here, I know that you're a degenerate gambler. Everybody can go listen to Ben's gambling thoughts on the ringer shows as

well. Do you have like any big time NFL draft bets that you have circled in highlighter or like, I want this to hit so bad. Are there, are there like one or two that you look at that you're either stressing over or just looking at? If Ikea quantum goes first,

overall, I'm buying a new car. I'm buying, I'm buying, I'm buying a new car i'm buying you i'm buying i'm buying a new car buying you a new car too uh that would be delightful i'm not sure that we're we're gonna get there that those were odds from a long long time ago but uh it would be really fun if he was first if hutch is first that's okay um as far as stuff right now i just took ritter first quarterback at plus 3 000 which is on fan duel. The league's doing the thing.

Jeremy fell on ESPN. Lease kind of maybe into Ritter. They were trying to hide it for as long as they could, but watch the film. Ritter is very, very good quarterback. I think he's clearly better than Kenny pick it. I mean, he clearly is up there.

Pick it, man. I just finished charting. Pick it, brother. We cannot be doing this right now. I think he's going six overall. I'll tell you right now.

I will cry. Uh, Darren Singley is doing his, uh, LSU pro day workout right now. You can still get under 12.5 for Stingley's draft position, which Stingley kind of like fell during March, like during the combine,

it was like, Oh, people don't like Stingley. And then all of a sudden, like all like the big NFL guy mocks have Stingley back, like fringe top 10. Uh, I think i think that yeah teams maybe don't don't love like the way stingley behaved in the 2020 season but boy put on the 2019 film suddenly you stop caring you don't care a lot less about what he was doing in the non-national championship year when you watch how he was

playing as a freshman so i like seeing the under 12 and a half right now it's a good bet all right well it's interesting it's at 12 too. Cause Minnesota feels like the spot where you can easily come off the board. So I like that. I like the number there. One year, one year deal for Pat Pete. And they said after Pat Pete was signed that like,

they want him as like a mentor. He's LSU DB, baby. Connect some dots. It's key. Getting the under there with Minnesota. No doubt about it. Listen to ben basically everywhere

the ringer does nfl podcast the nfl show the betting show the nfl draft show go follow all his work over at the ringer as well follow him on twitter ben thank you so much for joining us here on this guest mock draft and being on the other side of things now man making the pick had to feel good appreciate you buddy yeah i did know all the questions that were coming. So it was easy. Of course you did. Of course you did. Appreciate y'all. Thanks, man. Here we go. Pick number 16. It is the New Orleans Saints.

It's not the Philadelphia Eagles anymore. It is, in fact, the New Orleans Saints. And to help us understand what happened with that massive trade, what the Saints might be targeting, maybe some moves around the first round. Who knows? We have Nick Underhill with us who works for NewOrleans.Foot dot football nick is one of the best in the business covering that team down there nick i appreciate you joining me here at number 16 to guess mock draft yeah thanks for having me man

so let's just start off let's talk about that big trade that happened the saints were sitting there at number 18 they end up parlaying 18 and a couple of other future picks to move with the philadelphia eagles they get 16 and they get 19. What did you think when this dropped? How surprised were you when it happened? Did you hear any rumblings that something like this might be coming down the pipe? But what would you think overall of the trade? So they were definitely working trade avenues.

And I think they're still working trade avenues. And there's a couple factors here that I think go into play with this one. It gives them the ammunition to move around the board and they do have some high value spots that they could look to address. I think quarterback is still something that's definitely on the table until you have your guy that's on a five-year contract. I think they're going to be looking at their options there and they have been meeting with different guys. They've been doing a lot of homework on the, on the prospects. They're even higher up. And then, you know, second round options, possibly Sam, how somebody that they've met

with a few times they've worked them out. So I think everything's on the table at that position, but if that doesn't happen and they stay put and they just draft where they're at, I think moving their assets up into this year kind of makes sense for where this team's at. My first thought was maybe they paid a little too much for that additional first round pick. But when you have guys like DeMario Davis and Kim Jordan that are nearing the end of their careers in that 2017 draft class, all those guys are on their second contracts. It makes sense for them to try to build around the core that they have in place, move the assets up from 23 and 24 to now. And there are three big

holes on this team, offensive tackle, wide receiver, free safety. They view Marcus May as a strong safety. So they're looking for a free, they now have three picks in the top 50. And I think you can address all those needs and still be a good team. They won nine games last year.

Sean Payton is gone. That's something they're going to have to prove they can overcome. But if they get a good core around this team, the players that are in place get a little better on offense, I think they can very easily, again, be a 9-10 win team, get into the playoffs. And the NFC is kind of trash right now.

So if you get in the playoffs, anything can happen. Kind of trash is actually an accurate way to say it. The NFC normally is. And the Saints for a long time have been that one of those teams that were at the very top. I'm certainly when Drew Brees was there, that was the case. But even when Drew wasn't there, like you mentioned, they were competitive and they were competitive because of Sean Payton with Payton no longer there.

I mean, it sounds it sounds silly to ask the question, like, how big of a worry is this? Because he's one of the best coaches in the NFL. So when you lose him, that's awful. But I guess kind of almost the same question as we have with the trade. How surprised were you of this move? Because for me as an outsider, I know for a lot of other people, it was like, whoa, Sean Payton's doing what? Like you thought, okay, if he was going to retire, if he was close to it,

maybe would have rode off into the sunset when Drew Brees left. But the timing seemed crazy for me on the outside. What was it like covering this team? And then hearing that news eventually, was that something that surprised you guys? Or again, did you kind of see it coming? So I absolutely hate more than anything. Like when reporters act like, Oh, this was coming or they tweet, this was coming to something that happens. And you didn't say anything beforehand, but legitimately in this case, like there were some whispers, I would say starting in December about TV networks reaching out to him.

And it's just kind of like, why are they reaching out to him? Is there something I don't know? And then just kind of these like weird rumors kept building and building and building to the point where, where it's like, all right, I got to treat this legitimately and start talking about the possibilities. And so I wouldn't say it was, it was a shocking development because there actually were like some rumblings behind the scenes, but look, it's, it's going to be a huge thing that they have to prove they can overcome. And I think the moves they make can kind of lull you into a sense of like, well, okay, how much has actually changed because Pete Carmichael, who's been next to him for 15 years now, just keeps running the offense. Dennis Allen, who's done a great job running the defense keeps doing what he's doing. But I mean, I think Sean's nature of just

how we called games is his being a little bit of a Maverick and all that I think probably was the difference between a couple of wins per season and you take him out and now where are they at with that? And then just his leadership, the confidence, all that stuff that, that they kind of took from him, the team and kind of played a little bit like in his image with his cockiness and all that. I think there's just a lot of stuff that we're probably not even valuing yet that, that are going to come up over time. And it's going to be like, okay, well that that's where Sean would have done things a little bit differently. So yeah, I do think it is, it is a significant thing. And I, I mean,

no disrespect to anybody that they put in place. I mean, I think there's just a natural step back here and they're going to have to find different ways to overcome it. No, I believe you there. So you, Hey, you mentioned they had three big holes on the roster. He said, wide receiver, he said, offensive tackle. And he also said free safety. You didn't mention quarterback. Now they don't have that five-year contract guy. Like you said, every team searching for until they get one, but what's the confidence level with Jameis Winston? Because when a trade like this goes down, they acquire multiple first round picks.

You mentioned the flexibility they might have a lot of people's minds immediately go to okay they're moving up and if they're paying that much of a price they're probably going to move up for a quarterback do you think that that's in the cards for them in relation to an overarching question how much confidence do they have in Jameis Winston maybe being their guy I think there's a level of confidence in Jameis Winston maybe being their guy? I think there's a level of confidence in Jameis Winston in the sense that he can continue to develop. And I think they liked the things he did last year. And he showed he can run an offense without making a ton of mistakes and can be more cautious. Personally, I think he veered a little bit towards over-cautiousness at times. And I

think in Tampa Bay, and you would probably be able to speak on this much better than me. I think there was more anticipatory throws with him. Whereas last year, it looked like he was almost waiting for guys to be open before he was letting the ball go just to, to eliminate the possibility of mistakes. And he didn't really throw the ball over the middle at all. It was, it was almost too safe. And I think the biggest issue with him was, was the throws he didn't make. And you go through the film and be like, he should have pulled the trigger here. And I understand all the reasons he did that. I think it was issue with him was, was the throws he didn't make. And you go through the film and be like, he should have pulled the trigger here. And I understand all the reasons he did that. I think it was important for him to not make those mistakes. And then also the wide receivers he was playing with when you're throwing the Kenny Stills

and Kevin White, I probably wouldn't be super confident in letting the ball out early either. So I would want to know those guys are open before the ball is going to them. And there was a lot of tip passes last year. So throwing passes over the middle, those get tipped. Those are, those are interceptions there. So there's a lot of things here where I want to see him with better players around him to know what you can actually do. But I think their actions this, this off season, tell you kind of what they think about him.

They went hard after Deshaun Watson. They gave him $14 million per year. Neither one of those things say, this is the guy that's going to be our quarterback for the next, you know, three, four, five years. He's, he's here for a year. If he proves it, they'll pay him more gladly. And they got their guy. And I think there is upside there, but that, you know, he's, he's got to show it at this point. And they aren't committed to him at all. And until you are committed for, for, you know, that level of time, there's going to be some wandering eyes going on. And Jamis hasn't really earned the, the, you know, the blinders that, that team's put on when they have the right guy. So he's still, he's still fighting for that. And I think if they like

Kenny Pickett say, and he's there, I don't think they would hesitate to take a quarterback and bring them in and look, if Jamis wins a job and they got to pay them, that's a great outcome. You trade pick it two years from now and get the pick back so I think uh they're still definitely looking at quarterbacks right now yeah I mean you you kind of talked about his time in Tampa Bay I saw that firsthand very very closely and I think that it's funny that you mentioned him being a little gun shy now because it feels like that was always the natural progression for him we watched so many years in a row of him in Tampa where he was simply just too reckless and you know I think whether it was Dirk Cutter at first and then it was Bruce Arians they kept

saying the same thing well you don't want to coach that gunslinger mentality out of them but then ultimately of course it became his demise in Tampa he goes over to New Orleans and I think that it was to be expected that there was going to be a lot of those throws that he didn't make that you want to see him make on his tape now seems like if there's going to be a time for jamis this would kind of be the time right i mean he kind of got his gunslinger recklessness out of the way now he had his overcautious period out of the way if he's going to become that perfect marriage of both feels like this would be the timing for it and so it makes makes sense that New Orleans would invest a little bit into money. I'm speaking of his playmakers. I'm curious what receiver,

what type of receiver you think would be best for the New Orleans Saints? Cause I think there's a lot to choose from. And right now when we read mock drafts, there's some that have the first wide receiver going off the board in the top 10, some like right outside, say with Washington or teams like that but I think the fact of the matter is no matter what wide receiver you're looking at in this class Drake London Garrett Wilson Chris Olave Traylon Burks Jameson Williams there's a chance any of those guys could be available for New Orleans they've all got different shapes and sizes which one is perfect for this New Orleans

offense what kind of receiver do you think that they'll go after? Look, I don't want to like give the cop out answer here, but like the one that I feel like they should go after is the available one because it's like that wide open, like just get anybody at this point, they got Michael Thomas coming back. And then after that it's Marquez Calloway, uh, Trey Kwan Smith, Deontay Harris has played well, but I don't think he's the right type of player that you kind of say, okay, he's, he's in here all the time. He's kind of a specialty type of player. So I think they can make use of anything. You know, I kind of like Garrett Wilson for them a little bit out of those guys, just because I saw him do a lot on play

action. I think they need to use Jameis a lot more on play action. That was like one of the most confusing things about how Sean Payton used them last year is I felt like he didn't capitalize on that enough. And over the years we saw Jameis be one of the better play action quarterbacks in the league. So I think they need to set some more of that stuff up. So I think some of the stuff that, that Wilson does would fit really well, get him the ball in space.

You can get some safe throws out there and I feel like they could, they could find a lot of ways to make use of him, but really any one of these guys, I like Berks. The, the, the problem with him is I kind of feel like it's a little bit like you kind of got that covered with Mike Thomas. So if you're trying to maybe do some different things, I think you can get a different type of receiver. But yeah, I think any of them, they just need talent at that position. And the way they kind of approached it last year was almost borderline malpractice a little bit which is how bad they let that get they were just trying to figure out hey how slim can we get a wide receiver before we realize we're in trouble

here so all right well let's put you on the clock here number 16 for new orleans only one wide receiver off the board drake london's the only one who's not available so you mentioned you like gary wilson i'm curious if he's going to be the pick here, but you also said that they have a couple of other needs on this team. So I'm curious if you are making the pick for the New Orleans Saints and the board falls like this, who are you going with? I think the Saints would be thrilled if the board fell like this because you have three receivers and I think you're fine with any of the three. Kenny Pickett's still there if you want to make a QB pick but looking at the knees Tron Armstead's gone huge need a left tackle I think it'd be comfortable with James Hurst going into the season but I don't think that's a preferred

outcome so I'm taking Penning here and I'm just going to play the board at 19 just let it fall one of the receivers is going to be there uh Pickett's going to be there so so you know there's going to be a good option so the heart of be there so so you know there's going to be a good option so the harder decision i think can come later i think you just adjust the need at a position that's standing out and let the draft fall out falls so you're going offensive tackle and then realizing that there's only so many big picks between you and 19 and you'll be able to if you were making the pick at 19 you're saying that you'd probably you go offensive tackle here and then you probably take a receiver at 19 yeah i would absolutely take the pick at 19, you're saying that you'd probably, you go off into tackle here and then you probably take a receiver at 19. Yeah, I would absolutely take the receiver

at 19. They can't, they can't do what they're doing here. I'm not sold enough on, on picket that like, it's like, he's the guy long-term if he was the guy and I thought he was going to be there 10 years starter. I think you pick him and just, you know, whatever, who cares what happens anywhere else, but I don't think anyone's convinced on him like that. So I would go tackle here, get the wide receiver, run it with Jameis for a year, and then hope the quarterback market is as crazy as it was this year, next year, or that Jameis develops it and you can find an answer. But right now, I think, I think you just try to play for the playoffs and stay competitive and worry about quarterback later. All right, there we go. Trevor Penning off the board at number 16 with a little peer into what Nick would do at number 19, given a full draft

strategy. But we love to see that. We love to see the full plan here on the guest mock draft. Nick Underhill, everybody go follow him on Twitter. Make sure you're following his great work at neworleans.football. He covers the Saints better than a lot of people cover their own beats, man. He's one of the best in the business. Nick, thank you so much for joining me, man. Yeah, I appreciate it, man. Four more picks down in the guest mock draft series. We are now more than halfway done, but we've got another half coming at you over the next couple of weeks leading

up to draft weekend for next week, Monday. Just want to let you guys know there will be a mock draft Monday episode, but it is a very special mock draft Monday episode because your boys at NFL SE are doing a dueling mock draft with the guys over on the tailgate podcast. We're going live Monday afternoon. So make sure you check out what time it is. I believe the schedule is right now. 2 PM. Eastern is when we're going live. We're going live on YouTube. So you can check it out there, but of course it will be available in podcast form afterwards. It's going to be the tailgate boys versus the NFL SE boys.

Mock draft versus mock draft. You got to decide which one's your favorite. We'll see you guys then. Outro Music